More Restless thoughts, this time from SunS
ebail...@my-deja.com
The Sunnydale Slayers finally posted their review and commentary of
Restless (http://www.enteract.com/~perridox/SunS/index.html), and
brought up some interesting thoughts that we haven't covered.
Hopefully, they won'ty mind me quoting them...
Valerie:
"Don't make Cave Slayer unhappy." (Sorry, it just had to be said!)
I hate Joss.
I hate Joss because I cannot sleep.
I cannot sleep because Primal Slayer has a mix of Neandertal (large
teeth & nose, prominent cheekbones, heavy jaw) and anatomically modern
H. sapiens (prominent chin, long limbs, lighter body structure)
traits...and she's wearing woven fabric, apparently linen.
Neandertal have long been believed to have become extinct no later than
23,000 BCE. The relatively recent discovery of the skeleton of a 4-year-
old boy showing traits of both has challenged that (he was dated to
21,500 BCE) and provided evidence that Neandertal and anatomically
modern humans did interbreed.
Not that my problem is affected much by that little shift, since the
earliest date I've ever seen advanced for the development of linen
weaving is 5000 BCE. The only woven textile that *may* have developed
earlier is wool, which is very much not what Primal Slayer is wearing.
Linen is definitely associated with the rise of agriculture, and not at
all with the hunter-gatherer cultures of both Neandertal and their
anatomically modern contemporaries.
There are currently no less than three explanations clamoring for
prominence in my head, not counting the obvious (and most likely) real-
world explanation that they simply didn't do their homework (or else
consciously bent the facts of prehistory to get the dramatic image they
were after). Which, if I could just accept it, would let me sleep. No
such luck with this rebellious brain o' mine. *sigh*
Explanation A: Primal Slayer is from early Egyptian or Nubian culture,
and was some sort of genetic throwback and/or demon hybrid (Jack's been
saying for ages, and I agree with him, that the Slayer almost *has* to
be part demon, and Adam's cryptic comment in Buffy's dream goes a way
toward bearing that out). Because of this, she was cast out/left to die
by her people (perhaps given a symbolic "burial", considering that what
passes for her clothing bears a more-than-passing resemblance to a
shroud or mummy wrappings) at an early age, and survived to grow into
the solitary feral thing we met tonight. Maybe even a literal
burial...as the first, maybe it was her own death (or near-death) that
opened the channel for the unknown Source (the PTB? The First?
Something else entirely?) to infuse her body with what would become the
Slayer's power.
Explanation B: Primal Slayer is indeed from the ca. 10,000-year overlap
period of Neandertal and anatomically modern humans, is of mixed
parentage and/or part demon, and her wrappings are representative of
demon rather than human technology. The feral-child thing also applies
here.
Explanation C: Primal Slayer is a sort of composite image drawn from
the Scooby Gang's collective unconscious--an archetypal representation
of the spirit of the first Slayer, rather than an accurate image of how
she appeared in life.
At the moment I'm finding it completely impossible to choose one of
these as the most likely, or even as that which I like the best.
I also hate Joss because he confirmed the extreme antiquity of
Slayerdom, a concept that has been niggling at the back of my mind
since "Beer Bad", without actually Jossing the nebulous zygote of
possible fic that was conceived at that time. In fact, he's raised lots
MORE questions to pursue.
Ave Joss. The bastard.
Now that we've been discussing it a bit, Giles' dream sheds a lot more
light on the questions about the origins of Slayer and Watchers, and
the relationship between them, than I realized. Key things to chew
on: "Don't think," etc. -- "Don't you think this is a little old-
fashioned?" -- "This is how men and women have behaved since the
beginning, before time." Then to Olivia: "This is my business, blood of
the lamb and all that." (And does that--along with the way
Primal "drank" Willow's spirit--remind anyone else of the speculation
that Ampata was a Slayer?) And the things he said to Primal, implying
that he can tame/control her by intellectual means.
I'm even more sure now that Giles was mistaken when he said Primal had
never had a Watcher. Even if she was born only partially human,
*somebody* had to teach her that she wasn't able to live in the world.
I say "able", not "allowed". She didn't even have Kendra's
understanding that even though there was only one right choice, it *is*
a choice. And her initial aggressive response to Buffy's insistence on
having one gave way pretty quickly to puzzlement...and I wonder what
the next step was? Dead for millennia, and she's just now finding out
she was lied to and used. I'm positive at this point that she *chose*
to release Buffy and the others because Buffy got through to her on
some level; and as tempting as it is to say she just couldn't stand
being lectured about her hair, the reasons are much deeper. Buffy isn't
just defying the Council any more; she's challenging the fundamental
nature of Slayerdom, and perhaps of gender politics on a cosmic scale.
And you can bet the farm we haven't seen the last of that.
"Faith and I just made that bed." Buffy asserts her right to walk,
talk, shop, sneeze, etc.--to be more than just the Slayer. Faith, until
very recently, embraced the indiscriminate destroyer nature implied by
Primal's description of herself...and it nearly destroyed her. The
Watchers lost control, and the Slayer's nature in her reverted to that
primal, indiscriminate form, getting worse and worse the more she cut
herself off from positive human contact. Buffy, though also no longer
under the Council's control, has a strong support structure that allows
her to keep her identity as part of this world intact, and her
destructive Slayer nature in check."
Chris wrote:
"I've always thought the patron saint/goddess of the Slayers would be
Kali. She who carries a weapon in every hand (does she have six or
eight? And hey, look, spider significance again...), is also known
as "Destroyer", "Drinker of Blood(Souls)", "Dark Mother", and,
strangely enough, "Dancer". Now, does Buffy have something in common
with a few of those, or what? Kali is the protector of the home and
children, too, as well as the berserker goddess who kills her
lover/husband who rises again. She dances on the bones of her enemies.
She's one of the Hindi goddesses of desire, too, if I remember right;
and all of the Slayers are gorgeous to look at (the better to keep
vamps off-guard, I think; little helpless-looking pretty girl vs.
monster = no contest, right?)."
Tina added:
"Now, here's a throwback to some of our first season discussions: it
seems even more that Slayerdom might be somewhat genetic. If the Slayer
is part demon, then only those women with those particular demon genes--
obviously very diluted--could be called as Slayers. I see the power
that was talking through Tara as a sort of proto-Goddess, which puts me
in the leaning toward the cave-Slayer camp, methinks. She (the power)
will become Tiamat, Ereshkigal, Morrigan, and so on--or those will be
the names given later. And is it just me, or did more of us hear the
capital "H" when Tara's voice said, "Someone has to speak for Her?"
Anyway, I see that power as a proto-Goddess type--maybe a demon, in
actuality--who was opposed to the demon that created vampires. While
Giles says, in WttH, that the demon that created vampires was the last
demon to leave this plane, maybe he was wrong, and the proto-Goddess
was the last one."
Chris, again:
"Speaker for the Dead is the official position for someone at the
ancient Egyptian funeral rites who testifies for the person who is no
longer there. Tara evidently got picked for the job; and you have to
wonder why. Or at least, why not Anya? She was a demon. Is that part of
it? Or is there more to Tara that the First Slayer isn't sharing? And
damn, that image of her chained to the ceiling made me *jump*."
Valerie:
"A little more "Restless" reeling fodder...
"I'm not a demon, little girl. I'm something you can't even conceive
of." -- The First, "Amends"
"You cannot possibly grasp the source of our power." -- MegaBuffy, last
week
"The Slayer."
"The First." -- Buffy and Primal (via Tara), this week
In "Amends", Giles responded to the question "The First what?"
with "Evil." But it was only called The First in the actual reference
he was looking at. What if the Firsts are one and the same?"
"In this case, the fact that Tara is in a choli and a somewhat
abbreviated sari could be significant...swinging us in a Kali
direction. Which makes sense, since Hinduism is the only mainstream
living religion involving a destruction-goddess of the sort we've been
discussing. (Not to slight the Morrigan--fates know that's the LAST
thing I'd do!--but she's harder to get a handle on for dramatic imagery
purposes, since her aspect is so diffused across different trads.)"
"Alternatively, Tara may be exactly who her name says she is, or some
manifestation thereof...it's only *the* most sweepingly common Indo-
European name for the Mother aspect. Generative force in opposition
to/symbiosis with Primal Slayer's destructive force?"
Discuss...
E
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
vicpusateri
interprestations of the Primal Slayer... no detailed spoilery
things... just vague slayer-origin speculations
In article <8i50g6$l9k$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
ebail...@my-deja.com wrote:
> The Sunnydale Slayers finally posted their review and
commentary of
> Restless (http://www.enteract.com/~perridox/SunS/index.html),
and
> brought up some interesting thoughts that we haven't covered.
> Hopefully, they won't mind me quoting them...
>
> Valerie:
[...]
> There are currently no less than three explanations clamoring
for
> prominence in my head, not counting the obvious (and most
likely)
> real-world explanation that they simply didn't do their
homework (or else
> consciously bent the facts of prehistory to get the dramatic
image
> they were after). [...]
I think this is the most likely explanation [considering Joss's
way with math, his history being off wouldn't surprise me, but
I'm inclined to think it was a conscious artistic choice].
> Explanation A: Primal Slayer is from early Egyptian or Nubian
culture,
> and was some sort of genetic throwback and/or demon hybrid
(Jack's
> been saying for ages, and I agree with him, that the Slayer
almost *has* to
> be part demon, and Adam's cryptic comment in Buffy's dream goes
a way
> toward bearing that out). Because of this, she was cast
out/left to die
> by her people (perhaps given a symbolic "burial", considering
that what
> passes for her clothing bears a more-than-passing resemblance
to a
> shroud or mummy wrappings) at an early age, and survived to
grow into
> the solitary feral thing we met tonight. Maybe even a literal
> burial...as the first, maybe it was her own death (or
near-death) that
> opened the channel for the unknown Source (the PTB? The First?
> Something else entirely?) to infuse her body with what would
become the
> Slayer's power.
I love this idea. And it would be fitting if the Slayer was first
recognized as such in Egypt, which has a history of female
warrior goddesses [Bastet/Sekhmet anyone?] and, of course,
elaborate rituals built around death and also an acceptance of
the human [usually pharaoh] taking on a divine persona [usually
Horus or Amon-Re].
And it also incorporates a bit of the Christ/Osiris/Orpheus
imagery we've seen Buffy saddled with also [PG is her passion
play], since she was apparently stronger after descending into
hell, being killed and revived.
[snip explanation B]
> Explanation C: Primal Slayer is a sort of composite image drawn
from
> the Scooby Gang's collective unconscious--an archetypal
representation
> of the spirit of the first Slayer, rather than an accurate
image of how
> she appeared in life.
If we accept that certain aspects of the dream were shared, that
the PS appeared as a result of the union created by the gestalt
spell, and that there were still vestiges of that union left over
[and I don't know that we do], it makes sense that they'd
envision someone who was close to an even more extreme
Buffy-as-Cave-Slayer, since they all experienced that, rather
than as she really was [a Neanderthal gatherer in the African
savannah? A princess of Ur?] .
[...]
> Now that we've been discussing it a bit, Giles' dream sheds a
lot more
> light on the questions about the origins of Slayer and
Watchers, and
> the relationship between them, than I realized. Key things to
chew
> on: "Don't think," etc. -- "Don't you think this is a little
old-
> fashioned?" -- "This is how men and women have behaved since
the
> beginning, before time." Then to Olivia: "This is my business,
blood of
> the lamb and all that." (And does that--along with the way
> Primal "drank" Willow's spirit--remind anyone else of the
speculation
> that Ampata was a Slayer?) And the things he said to Primal,
implying
> that he can tame/control her by intellectual means.
I still don't think Ampata was a Slayer - she was literally
sacrificed for her people. Why would any people not in league
with vamp/demons kill their main protection against the minions
of evol? Wasn't her sacrifice in order to appease an angry god of
some sort and protect her people? I don't think the parallel was
supposed to be literal.
>
> I'm even more sure now that Giles was mistaken when he said
Primal had
> never had a Watcher. Even if she was born only partially human,
> *somebody* had to teach her that she wasn't able to live in the
world.
> I say "able", not "allowed".
If she truly was driven to kill [and slept on a bed of bones]
it's entirely possible she was unable to live among her people
[whomever they may have been], because of the stress she endured.
A life as a killing machine doesn't make one very fit for
company, or capable of fitting in, especially in a less flexible
society, where what was different was most likely shunned.
So I don't think PS had a watcher per se, though there may have
been a group leader who didn't want her around, either because
she was in direct competition with him because of her hunting
prowess, or because they thought she was a freak.
I still think the CoW arose from an early group of people who
learned about the supernatural and wanted to help out - possibly
an ur-version of the slayerettes.
[...]
> Tina added:
[...] I see the power
> that was talking through Tara as a sort of proto-Goddess, which
puts me
> in the leaning toward the cave-Slayer camp, methinks. She (the
power)
> will become Tiamat, Ereshkigal, Morrigan, and so on--or those
will be
> the names given later. And is it just me, or did more of us
hear the
> capital "H" when Tara's voice said, "Someone has to speak for
Her?"
> Anyway, I see that power as a proto-Goddess type--maybe a
demon, in
> actuality--who was opposed to the demon that created vampires.
While
> Giles says, in WttH, that the demon that created vampires was
the last
> demon to leave this plane, maybe he was wrong, and the
proto-Goddess
> was the last one."
I like this idea as well - it would explain [in the Bverse] the
recurrence of destructive-goddesses/women in many mythologies.
The Slayer as the protector/destroyer of her people, worshipped
in the abstract, shunned and alone in reality.
> Chris, again:
>
> "Speaker for the Dead is the official position for someone at
the
> ancient Egyptian funeral rites who testifies for the person who
is no
> longer there. Tara evidently got picked for the job; and you
have to
> wonder why. Or at least, why not Anya? She was a demon. Is that
part of
> it? Or is there more to Tara that the First Slayer isn't
sharing? [...]
Was it actually Tara? [I wouldn't be shocked if it were.] Or
just Buffy's conception of Tara? She didn't appear at all in
Giles's dream.
[...]
Thanks for copying this - it's given me some interesting things
to think about re: Restless.
victoria p.
Miss July
--
"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers." Dick, _Henry
VI, Part 2_, William Shakespeare
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K.B. Lamke
vicpusateri wrote:
>
> I think this is the most likely explanation [considering Joss's
> way with math, his history being off wouldn't surprise me, but
> I'm inclined to think it was a conscious artistic choice].
>
> victoria p.
> Miss July
>
> --
I'd go with the idea that TPTB didn't want to show some nice
looking naked chick on 8:00 tv.
K.B.Lamke