So what's the story with the Powers that Be?
Mark London
Mark London
M...@PSFC.MIT.EDU
EGK
>How do they fit into this whole mess? Just curious.
I don't think they've sat down and made that up yet.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"There would be a lot more civility in this world if people
didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you"
- (Calvin and Hobbes)
email: egk-n...@hotmail.com
Ard Rhi
"Mark London" <m...@psfc.mit.edu> wrote in message
news:3APR03....@psfc.mit.edu...
From what Skip said (yes; I know he has lied before already), I am guessing
there AREN'T any Powers That Be. The Master has been manipulating Angel
Investigations and several others for a very long time leading up to its
rebirth in the world.
It was grooming Cordelia by giving her visions, having her choose to become
part demon, and then tricking her into going to the higher plane where the
evil could invade her very essence. It also allowed for the birth of Connor
so that he could help bring about the rebirth of itself.
Gotta admit, I doubt this had bee planned all along but if they manage to
tie loose ends, they will have done GREAT job of the storyline.
Ard Rhi
Rose
>From: "Ard Rhi" ardrhi[anti-spam]@earthlink.net(no-spam)
>Date: 4/2/2003 8:43 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <HZOia.5912$ey1.4...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
So does that mean Buffy was really in a Hell dimension -- one that would make
her love death better than life so that when Willow raised her she would kiss
Spike and dump him, hence ending his walk toward soulless redemption, and
herself mount Spike while he was in the unredeemy "I wish I could have killed
that alley chick" mindset, leading to the Slayer becoming a user and leading to
Spike becoming darker and darker, dragging them both into a bad bad place,
until Spike tried to rape her and then got his soul back from a demon which
probably can't be a good thing, and causing Buffy to eschew sex for a year
causing her to get really frustrated and bitchy, thus leading to the cataclysms
which will take place in the next five weeks?
Rose
"No man is an island, entire of itself." -- John Donne
Girls have human rights, too
KenM47
Well, you see, those are the writers. And they can do whatever they
want, get as sophmoric and trite as they want, as long as the viewers
keep coming back for more and the network keeps picking up the show.
And if the show gets canned, they can always try to get on the staff
of "Charmed" or some other piece of crap that tries to give us a
childish point of view on the big questions.
Ken
JoshB
That makes no sense. Whatsoever.
KenM47
Well duh!
ME just told us every line they ever wrote, every scene we've ever
seen, were there just so Joss could heal the world with his divine
revelations. Pass the collection plate please.
Ken
DarkMagic
"EGK" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:kfdn8vgfmf0g2r8dq...@4ax.com...
> On 3 APR 2003 04:04:56 GMT, m...@psfc.mit.edu (Mark London) wrote:
>
> >How do they fit into this whole mess? Just curious.
>
> I don't think they've sat down and made that up yet.
>
Spoiler for "ISO"
I don't recall them ever saying that the powers were good. In fact, the
oracles were down right nasty, Skip, clearly, evil. All of the evidence
points to amoral or even evil Powers that Be. And I don't think that's a
retcon.
--
Shannon
Spike: "We're bringing Mother, of course. I think you'll like her."
Druscilla: "Do you mean to eat?"
zzzzara
why on earth do you think Skip is a reliable narrator?
David Cheatham
>
>
> "EGK" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:kfdn8vgfmf0g2r8dq...@4ax.com...
> > On 3 APR 2003 04:04:56 GMT, m...@psfc.mit.edu (Mark London) wrote:
> >
> > >How do they fit into this whole mess? Just curious.
> >
> > I don't think they've sat down and made that up yet.
> >
> Spoiler for "ISO"
>
> I don't recall them ever saying that the powers were good. In fact, the
> oracles were down right nasty, Skip, clearly, evil. All of the evidence
> points to amoral or even evil Powers that Be. And I don't think that's a
> retcon.
I've always suggested that the PTB are just a bunch of gods who discovered that beings with
souls would be less likely to kill *them*.
Even if they are working *for* humanity doesn't make them good guys. For all we know, there
are a dozen different factions of 'Powers', and the ones we ended up with as just as evil as
the rest of them, they just think we're useful, because we fight off the minions of the other
powers.
SDM
fyl...@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote:
Yes, to all of it. Xander will save the world by giving Buffy a Hitachi
Magic Wand.
Steve
Bobby Coakley
"David Cheatham" <da...@creeknet.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.18f6b6997...@news.direcpc.com...
Any of you out there ever read the Star Trek:TNG novel, Q-Squared. Not to
sound too much like Andrew (from BUFFY) but that novel by Peter David
features the Q-Continuum being cut off from the rest of the universe so the
bad guy can complete his evil plan.
Maybe something like this happened. The Big Bad somehow cut the PTB off
from the rest of reality. They can't send any visions or do anything to
help or signal or anything like Angel being able to enter Kate's apartment
without being invited in. It's a free-for-all, which is why Skip was "off
the ranch" and making claims about the others being manipulated.
David Cheatham
Yeah, I read it.
But, that doesn't work. The PTB have been actively interfering in the universe since day one.
They just don't appear to be any damn good at it.
Rev. Cyohtee - O'kōhome Ehohatse
issued forth:
THe impression I got was that the PTB were always about maintaining
the balance, not about good *or* evil.
--
Cyo cyo...@ucan.foad.org
http://www.barbarian.org/~cyohtee http://www.barbarian.org
"Why does any advanced civilization seek to destroy
less advanced one? Because the land is strategically valueable,
because there are resources that can be cultivated and exploited,
but most of all, simply because they can." - G'Kar
Sylver
>How do they fit into this whole mess? Just curious.
I think that they just love to play around, everything just another
game on the universe's chessboard :) The pawns being the innocent
human beings of course! Easy to sacrifice.
kenm47
You've just put your finger on a very big problem Skip is now as
reliable/unreliable as any of them. They no longer appear as distinct
entities, just actors mouthing the writers' words. And the writers
just keep setting up escape devices, like the interdimensional books
set up in Pylea arc and which they haven't dropped--just reset buttons
waiting in the wings if the writers otherwise give up on any
particular plot device--and then they can tell us it's what they
planned from the beginning.
Why believe what any character says? Is there any good reason to
believe the naked Cordy killing Manny story either? Washed herself off
where? And dried her hair? And got all those hard to reach spots too?
And did what with whatever she retrieved? Put it where?
If I didn't feel this need for closure, I'ld give up on both shows.
Ken
kenm47
So what's Joss' grand vision now? Pan-deism? Romans? Greeks? Norse?
Which mythology?
Or more modern, super beings as on ST:TOS, eternal battles between
good and bad for balance a la Babylon 5?
Personally I think his vision is clouded or wiped out by thoughts of
dancing dollars, and what can I get away with to keep them bucks
a-bucking? Any other motivations attributed to him or ME are, IMO,
self-delusional to the attributor.
Ken
zzzzara
depends on the character
> Is there any good reason to
> believe the naked Cordy killing Manny story either?
that was just Angel's guess
> Washed herself off
> where? And dried her hair? And got all those hard to reach spots too?
> And did what with whatever she retrieved? Put it where?
>
> If I didn't feel this need for closure, I'ld give up on both shows.
I think we disagree. In the "real world", narrators are rarely
reliable. The only reason the concept of an "unreliable narrator" is
at all noteworthy in literature/drama is because we're so used to
fictional narrators being all-knowing and completely honest.
>
> Ken
Growltiger
<a75dbe9c.03040...@posting.google.com>...
I disagree. I think that consumers of fiction are not inured to the
omniscient and trustworthy point of view. There are many, many examples
of the unreliable narrator upon which a reader or viewer can draw.
Poe's narrator <em>Tell Tale Heart</em> is in the throes of an
hallucination. He is honest about his experience but he is unhinged.
Burgess' Alex from <em>A Clockwork Orange</em> is something of a
sociopath. Although the reader or viewer is invited to feel some
sympathy for the abuses heaped upon Alex, his point of view is, in a
word, suspect. Tom Farrell in <em>No Way Out</em> is proved unreliable
at the conclusion of that film but that revelation did not invalidate
his adventures. Scottie Ferguson in Hitchcock's <em>Vertigo</em>
suffers from a psychological disability on which the story turns and yet
is still effective.
I do not doubt the counter, that there are many, many stories told from
a point of view that is honest. I just wanted to point out that there
are many examples to the contrary in fiction.
--
Be seeing you,
Growltiger
Growltiger
<4c527512.03040...@posting.google.com>...
Persons who disagree with you are "self-delusional?" Ken, you have
become shrill and unfair. Insulting the intelligence of persons who
disagree with you is ad hominem and this is not the best strategy to
winning an argument.
kenm47
No, depends upon the writers.
>
> > Is there any good reason to
> > believe the naked Cordy killing Manny story either?
>
> that was just Angel's guess
Which we were supposed to buy into as accurate even as he modified it.
>
> > Washed herself off
> > where? And dried her hair? And got all those hard to reach spots too?
> > And did what with whatever she retrieved? Put it where?
> >
> > If I didn't feel this need for closure, I'ld give up on both shows.
>
> I think we disagree. In the "real world", narrators are rarely
> reliable. The only reason the concept of an "unreliable narrator" is
> at all noteworthy in literature/drama is because we're so used to
> fictional narrators being all-knowing and completely honest.
Not after "The Usual Suspects" where it was handled wonderfully. Now
there's a movie you can examine and see they didn't cheat with the
audience. They tricked but no cheat.
Ken
Jim Lopez
<ardrhi[anti-spam]@earthlink.net(no-spam)> wrote:
>
>"Mark London" <m...@psfc.mit.edu> wrote in message
>news:3APR03....@psfc.mit.edu...
>> How do they fit into this whole mess? Just curious.
>>
>> Mark London
>> M...@PSFC.MIT.EDU
>
>From what Skip said (yes; I know he has lied before already), I am guessing
>there AREN'T any Powers That Be. The Master has been manipulating Angel
>Investigations and several others for a very long time leading up to its
>rebirth in the world.
Couple of things. First of all, if the Master has truly been behind
everything, then perhaps the Master IS one of the Powers That Be. At
least, I don't recall there being any clear indication that the Powers
that Be were "good." Nor does the Master seem to be unequivocally
Evil in the sense of "allied with the bad guys." How does one explain
the destruction of W&H? I think the Master operates in a realm where
Good and Evil are irrelevant. There are no good guys or bad guys.
Only means to an end, and obstacles to overcome. W&H may have been
destroyed because they had gotten too comfortable with the status quo
ante. Their messy deals with the demonic hordes no longer fit into
the Big Picture.
I'm hoping that next week we will see what the Master's goal truly is.
But from the teasers, it seems that the goal is Order. A literal End
of the World in which all progress stops, all conflict, all change,
everyone simply kneels to the Master forever and ever Amen. An
eschatological singularity. The heat death of the universe, in a
spiritual sense. ["A Wrinkle in Time," anyone? With Connor as
Charles Wallace?]
It may well be that the Master has controlled events to reach this
goal. But perhaps the reality is more that -- events transpire, the
Master does its best to twist them to its aims, and other Powers do
their best to twist the world to their aims. A sort of chess board in
which coporeal beings are the pawns. Yes, we're being manipulated,
but not by one Being, and not without the recourse of our free will.
Darla's exhortation to Connor made it clear that even the Gods have
certain rules they must play by. Pivotal events in this cosmic game
turn on the free choices of beings with souls.
It's also very possible that as the Master manipulates us, it is also
being manipulated for a greater Good. In the book of Revelation,
there's a nice piece where the Devil is let loose from a prison after
a thousand years, and he gathers together all the nations of the earth
who do battle with the forces of Good, and the evil forces appear to
be winning. They surround the encampment of the saints for one last
crushing blow, and just as Satan is about to be victorious, God
strikes him down. The whole cliffhanger is not just for dramatic
effect, but because in the Bible, the Devil is considered an essential
part of giving people a "choice" of which path they shall take. Just
as Connor was given a choice to ally himself with the Master or to
resist. (This is further demonstrated in the Buffyverse by the way
that people must "invite" vampires into their homes.) Connor's bad
choice will have the intended consequences, but I believe that the
theology of the Buffyverse doesn't truly allow for one side to achieve
a total victory. There will always be a loophole, a gateway, an
artifact, an unmanipulated memory fragment, which allows the
opposition to creep back in. And balance prevails.
>
>It was grooming Cordelia by giving her visions, having her choose to become
>part demon, and then tricking her into going to the higher plane where the
>evil could invade her very essence. It also allowed for the birth of Connor
>so that he could help bring about the rebirth of itself.
>
>Gotta admit, I doubt this had bee planned all along but if they manage to
>tie loose ends, they will have done GREAT job of the storyline.
>
>Ard Rhi
>
>
Jim/xiggy
Tim Bruening
Ard Rhi wrote:
The Master's only problem is that the First Evil happens to be making its play
for power at the same time! I forsee a stuggle for power between the two BBs.
3D Master
> Sylver <sylv...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message news:<dlgq8v8iroepfvd4f...@4ax.com>...
>
>>On 3 APR 2003 04:04:56 GMT, m...@psfc.mit.edu (Mark London) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>How do they fit into this whole mess? Just curious.
>>
>>I think that they just love to play around, everything just another
>>game on the universe's chessboard :) The pawns being the innocent
>>human beings of course! Easy to sacrifice.
>
>
> So what's Joss' grand vision now? Pan-deism? Romans? Greeks? Norse?
> Which mythology?
Ratet -> Ra -> Egyptian sun god -> so at least the Egyptian pantheon has
to be in Jossverse somewhere.
Makes you wonder what that ratet is really made for. To blot out the
sun, or to keep Ra locked up somewhere. What if the beast had done
something wrong? Would that have released Ra? Yikes, I have this strange
feeling that if this is true, Ra is infinitely more powerful than
anything we have seen before. He would probably point at Jasmine and
she'd go up in flames.
3D Master
--
~~~~~
"I've got something to say; it's better to burn out than to fade away!"
- The Kurgan, Highlander
"Give me some sugar, baby!"
- Ashley J. 'Ash' Williams, Army of Darkness
~~~~~
Author of several stories, which can be found here:
http://members.chello.nl/~jg.temolder1/