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[ART] There be Mugshots

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M Sipher

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Jun 2, 2001, 3:22:47 AM6/2/01
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Various and sundry additions. More to come soon, hopefully.


M "Enjoy In Moderation" Sipher
--
King Weasel Productions - home of the productions of King Weasel!
Transformers, RockMan, original art, the solutions to all life's problems
and other crap!
http://members.fortunecity.com/msipher
Home of That Big Transformers Variations List and MegaMan/RockMan Toy &
Merchandise Archive!

Zobovor

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Jun 2, 2001, 8:48:27 PM6/2/01
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M Sipher wrote:

>Various and sundry additions. More to come soon, hopefully.

Nice, as always. (Nightbeat really is terribly cheatsy, since the toy version
really doesn't match his comics appearance without wearing Siren's head. But
still, that's a cool little Matrix you drew.)

And why didn't you mention the [IMG] tags? Damn, those are hysterical. Go
back to his page now and hover your mouse cursor over the mugshots, people.
Funny, funny stuff.

Walkerton

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Jun 2, 2001, 11:57:47 PM6/2/01
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> Nice, as always. (Nightbeat really is terribly cheatsy, since the toy
version
> really doesn't match his comics appearance without wearing Siren's head.
But
> still, that's a cool little Matrix you drew.)

But.... That IS Nightbeat's toy head that he drew. /:)

--David


M Sipher

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Jun 3, 2001, 12:10:53 AM6/3/01
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Zobovor <zob...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010602204827...@ng-fe1.aol.com...

> M Sipher wrote:
>
> >Various and sundry additions. More to come soon, hopefully.
>
> Nice, as always. (Nightbeat really is terribly cheatsy,

Excuse me?

> since the toy version
> really doesn't match his comics appearance without wearing Siren's head.

So? I thought it was obvious that the intent was to draw the toys, not be
faithful to some other media's interpretation.


M "It's An Homage, And Something To Further Differentiate Him From Minerva,
Nothing More" Sipher

Zobovor

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Jun 3, 2001, 12:10:07 AM6/3/01
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Walky wrote:

I know, you silly person. But he's depicting a scene from the comics using a
toy that doesn't look like the comics character. :)


Zobovor... according to Jetfire's TFU profile, he's got four independantly
targetable lasers mounted around his head. Anybody wanna show me where those
are? :)

SilverBoltManiac

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Jun 3, 2001, 3:54:10 AM6/3/01
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All I get is Fortune City icons.

"Zobovor" <zob...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message news:
20010602204827...@ng-fe1.aol.com...

Walkerton

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Jun 3, 2001, 11:44:14 AM6/3/01
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> >> Nice, as always. (Nightbeat really is terribly cheatsy, since the toy
> >> version really doesn't match his comics appearance without wearing
> >> Siren's head. But still, that's a cool little Matrix you drew.)
> >
> >But.... That IS Nightbeat's toy head that he drew. /:)
>
> I know, you silly person. But he's depicting a scene from the comics
using a
> toy that doesn't look like the comics character. :)

....I don't understand your complaint.

> Zobovor... according to Jetfire's TFU profile, he's got four independantly
> targetable lasers mounted around his head. Anybody wanna show me where
those
> are? :)

Sure. The two double-barreled gun placements on the sides of his head.
Y'know,
on either side of his big red visor and white mouthplate.

--David
www.itswalky.com


Darwinian Road Kill

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Jun 3, 2001, 1:26:01 PM6/3/01
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Walkerton (wii...@hotmail.com) wrote:
: ....I don't understand your complaint.

Is this the time for an "Ow. ow. ow."? :)

: > Zobovor... according to Jetfire's TFU profile, he's got four independantly


: > targetable lasers mounted around his head. Anybody wanna show me where
: those
: > are? :)
: Sure. The two double-barreled gun placements on the sides of his head.
: Y'know,
: on either side of his big red visor and white mouthplate.

Exactly. *Sky*fire, on the other hand, never had any such setup...

He was just rilly tall with a cannon he could carry in one hand. :)

Ryan :>
--
"People who like penguins are nice people" -- Eric Bennett
(Fact: If my .sig gets over 10 lines, you can hit me)
"I have 4 gorillas, and i think you can kill them at botcon." -- Trypticon X
My half-baked site: www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Garden/8720
TF code: G++ AD/A OP/Q P212 ICQ:43171844

Walkerton

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Jun 3, 2001, 8:16:54 PM6/3/01
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> Walkerton (wii...@hotmail.com) wrote:
> : ....I don't understand your complaint.
>
> Is this the time for an "Ow. ow. ow."? :)

Not just yet. I have one on standby, though.


> : > Zobovor... according to Jetfire's TFU profile, he's got four
independantly
> : > targetable lasers mounted around his head. Anybody wanna show me
where
> : those
> : > are? :)
> : Sure. The two double-barreled gun placements on the sides of his head.
> : Y'know,
> : on either side of his big red visor and white mouthplate.
>
> Exactly. *Sky*fire, on the other hand, never had any such setup...

Well, the Jetfire in the comic was drawn as Skyfire's model. G1 continuity
is just so f***ed up.

But my question remains: what's inherently wrong with drawing toy-accurate
characters in other-media scenes? I didn't see you complain, Zob, when
Siph drew a toy-accurate Shokoract being all badassily evil when Geoff
Senior drew him much differently in the BotCon Comic. :)

If we are so literal with our interpretations, then I suppose that as soon
as Unicron showed up on Cybertron, he lost his bathroom doors, suddenly
became all angular and stylized, and all the Transformers collectively
stopped
drooling, lost their cheekbones, and generally looked a whole lot better. ;)

--David
www.itswalky.com


Zobovor

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Jun 3, 2001, 9:12:37 PM6/3/01
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Walkerton wrote:

>But my question remains: what's inherently wrong with drawing
>toy-accurate characters in other-media scenes? I didn't see you
>complain, Zob, when Siph drew a toy-accurate Shokoract being all
>badassily evil when Geoff Senior drew him much differently in the
>BotCon Comic. :)

What you guys don't seem to get is that I wasn't registering a complaint. For,
like, the fourth time now, I was simply expressing that the cross-media concept
didn't really fly with me. I'm sorry if you think my constructive criticism
was unwarranted, but surely you must have some clue of what I'm talking about
here. Isn't the whole reason you drew that toy version of the "Pri▄ of Life"
Ratchet/Megatron fusion because of the inherent toy/comic juxtaposition?

If you are looking for a relevant complaint, though, it's the same problem I
have with a lot of Dan Khanna's art, really. His group portraits are pretty
nice, but I fail to understand why he'll do the cartoon version of Megatron,
slap a cartoon face on the Soundwave toy, and throw in the toy versions of
Rumble and Frenzy all in the same shot. It's as though he only had a cartoon
reference for Megatron handy so he just grabbed the other toys off the shelf
for use as models. It would be the fanfic equivalent of having Elita One and
Devcon meet up with Circuit Breaker and Jhiaxus so they can all go hunt for
Bumblejumper. Make up your mind about which universe you're writing for,
already!

As for the BotCon comic, I've never read it. I'm certainly not going to get
picky about a fan artist's portrayal of a toy character who has no official
cartoon/comics design to begin with, though.

>If we are so literal with our interpretations, then I suppose that as soon
>as Unicron showed up on Cybertron, he lost his bathroom doors,
>suddenly became all angular and stylized, and all the Transformers
>collectively stopped drooling, lost their cheekbones, and generally
>looked a whole lot better. ;)

Generally looked a lot more two-dimensional, you mean.

Again, it would be like writing a story in the cartoon universe and having
Galvatron transform to handheld pistol mode and melt the tires on Bumblebee's
shoulders, while Dead End gives him a knowing smile. You could do that with
the toys, I suppose, but there are some media in which this just doesn't work.
:)


Zobovor... as far as Nightbeat goes, putting a fedorah on him or something
would have been cute.

Walkerton

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Jun 3, 2001, 11:59:47 PM6/3/01
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> What you guys don't seem to get is that I wasn't registering a complaint.
For,
> like, the fourth time now, I was simply expressing that the cross-media
concept
> didn't really fly with me. I'm sorry if you think my constructive
criticism
> was unwarranted, but surely you must have some clue of what I'm talking
about
> here. Isn't the whole reason you drew that toy version of the "Pri▄ of
Life"
> Ratchet/Megatron fusion because of the inherent toy/comic juxtaposition?

Well, yes, because I thought it'd be interesting to show, and I figgered
it'd
be *really* out there. ...it seems Liquid Velcro! had already beaten me
to the idea, though.

...yeah, but that's one time that Toy-accurate doesn't really work. Heck,
Wildman even had to cheat Ratchet and MEgatron into being the same height
and build. ...but then, Wildman did that with everyone already anyway.

> If you are looking for a relevant complaint, though, it's the same problem
I
> have with a lot of Dan Khanna's art, really. His group portraits are
pretty
> nice, but I fail to understand why he'll do the cartoon version of
Megatron,
> slap a cartoon face on the Soundwave toy, and throw in the toy versions of
> Rumble and Frenzy all in the same shot. It's as though he only had a
cartoon
> reference for Megatron handy so he just grabbed the other toys off the
shelf
> for use as models. It would be the fanfic equivalent of having Elita One
and
> Devcon meet up with Circuit Breaker and Jhiaxus so they can all go hunt
for
> Bumblejumper. Make up your mind about which universe you're writing for,
> already!

I don't see a problem with taking elements that you like and putting them
together. It's what they did for Batman: The Animated Series, and it's the
best
Batman ever.

> Generally looked a lot more two-dimensional, you mean.

I dunno. I've always found Wildman's art to be more two-dimensional.
Mostly
his noses. There's a few shots where Thunderpunch's face is so very very
flat.

Senior, on the other hand, works, since he TRIES for the two-dimensional
look and succeeds. :)

> Again, it would be like writing a story in the cartoon universe and having
> Galvatron transform to handheld pistol mode and melt the tires on
Bumblebee's
> shoulders, while Dead End gives him a knowing smile. You could do that
with
> the toys, I suppose, but there are some media in which this just doesn't
work.
> :)

I don't see a problem with it...

> Zobovor... as far as Nightbeat goes, putting a fedorah on him or something
> would have been cute.

Definitely agree there.

--David
www.itswalky.com


M Sipher

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Jun 4, 2001, 12:44:09 AM6/4/01
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Zobovor <zob...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010603211237...@ng-ms1.aol.com...

> It would be the fanfic equivalent of having Elita One and
> Devcon meet up with Circuit Breaker and Jhiaxus so they can all go hunt
for
> Bumblejumper. Make up your mind about which universe you're writing for,
> already!

Why?

There's a good deal of good fanfic that crosses comic/cartoon continuities.
Rob Jung brings Circuit Breaker into his fics, which are cartoon-based. He
also brought in Jetfire... as in the Macross-styled toy.

If you CAN make it work, why in the hell should you strictly limit yourself
like that? Or, for that matter, why bother writing a damn fanfic if you're
going to be THAT hideously rigid with continuity?

> As for the BotCon comic, I've never read it. I'm certainly not going to
get
> picky about a fan artist's portrayal of a toy character who has no
official
> cartoon/comics design to begin with, though.

...

THE BOTCON COMIC *IS* OFFICIAL. What's in that comic IS his official design.
Everything 3H does has to go through Hasbro. Therefore, Senior's drawing of
Shocky is official, Matrix of Conquest on his pecs and all.


M "And For That Matter, Why Should You Be Getting Picky About Any Artist's
Portrayal So Long As It Adheres To The Basic Design Of The Toy/Media Model
In At Least Some Base Sense?" Sipher

Growl1

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Jun 4, 2001, 12:52:12 AM6/4/01
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>> Bumblejumper. Make up your mind about which universe you're writing for,
>> already!
>
>Why?
>
>There's a good deal of good fanfic that crosses comic/cartoon continuities.
>Rob Jung brings Circuit Breaker into his fics, which are cartoon-based. He
>also brought in Jetfire... as in the Macross-styled toy.
>
>If you CAN make it work, why in the hell should you strictly limit yourself
>like that? Or, for that matter, why bother writing a damn fanfic if you're
>going to be THAT hideously rigid with continuity?
>

Because as good as it is for you, the writer, the people that are reading the
fic or whatever may become confused.

>THE BOTCON COMIC *IS* OFFICIAL. What's in that comic IS his official design.
>Everything 3H does has to go through Hasbro. Therefore, Senior's drawing of
>Shocky is official, Matrix of Conquest on his pecs and all

Yeah, in a sense it is, but I have a bit of a problem placing things created
for a convention on the same level as something created for national or
international viewing.


Roar

"The worst-tempered people I've ever met were people who knew they were wrong."
-Wilson Mizner

Zobovor

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Jun 4, 2001, 3:22:04 AM6/4/01
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Walky wrote:

>> Again, it would be like writing a story in the cartoon universe and
>> having Galvatron transform to handheld pistol mode and melt the tires
>> on Bumblebee's shoulders, while Dead End gives him a knowing
>> smile. You could do that with the toys, I suppose, but there are
>> some media in which this just doesn't work. :)
>
>I don't see a problem with it...

Really? When the cartoon Bumblebee doesn't *have* wheels on his arms and
cartoon Dead End has a faceplate? :)

Vice Grip

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Jun 4, 2001, 3:28:15 AM6/4/01
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Growl1 wrote...

>
> >THE BOTCON COMIC *IS* OFFICIAL. What's in that comic IS his official
design.
> >Everything 3H does has to go through Hasbro. Therefore, Senior's drawing
of
> >Shocky is official, Matrix of Conquest on his pecs and all
>
> Yeah, in a sense it is, but I have a bit of a problem placing things
created
> for a convention on the same level as something created for national or
> international viewing.

Thank you. I thought I was the only one who felt this way. While I do
enjoy the Botcon storyline. I just can't seem to hold it in the same light
of "official" storylines as the cartoon or comic book. Maybe as it
develops, later on, I will.

--
Vice Grip - KI sqwwe
http://wildrun.topcities.com/ orio...@sprynet.com
"Wear a Stampy around your neck, you'll get chicks." - Will
The Masters of Fate are coming...


Vice Grip

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Jun 4, 2001, 3:38:56 AM6/4/01
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M Sipher wrote...
> Zobovor wrote...

>
>> As for the BotCon comic, I've never read it. I'm certainly
>> not going to get picky about a fan artist's portrayal of a
>> toy character who has no official cartoon/comics design to
>> begin with, though.
>
> ...
>
> THE BOTCON COMIC *IS* OFFICIAL. What's in that comic IS his official
design.
> Everything 3H does has to go through Hasbro. Therefore, Senior's drawing
of
> Shocky is official, Matrix of Conquest on his pecs and all.

I believe that Zobovor was referring to your interpretation of Shokaract,
not Geoff Senior's. You are, technically speaking, a fan artist, correct?
Last I heard, Zob was aware of Mr. Senior's standing as an "offical" TF
artist.

> M "And For That Matter, Why Should You Be Getting Picky About Any Artist's
> Portrayal So Long As It Adheres To The Basic Design Of The Toy/Media Model
> In At Least Some Base Sense?" Sipher

Now, I may be straying off topic here, but it seems to me that you're
awfully combative in this thread. Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought the
criticisms were rather constructive, not negative at all.

Of course, this is coming from someone that can't draw a straight line with
a ruler, so what do I know about artistic ability? :)

Zobovor

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Jun 4, 2001, 3:51:05 AM6/4/01
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M Sipher wrote:

>>Make up your mind about which universe you're writing for, already!
>
>Why?

Well, without getting too far off-track, I don't mean to suggest that you
shouldn't be mixing and matching ideas from different continuities in your
mugshots. This whole thread seems to have been spawned by a single off-handed
remark I made off the top of my head, one which I didn't attach any particular
significance to at the time.

>If you CAN make it work, why in the hell should you strictly limit
>yourself like that? Or, for that matter, why bother writing a damn fanfic
>if you're going to be THAT hideously rigid with continuity?

How is it hideously rigid to say, "Okay, this is a story in the comics
universe, so Omega Supreme was created by Grapple, not friends with the
Constructicons"? Presumably, people develop an attachment to a given mythos
because they like the characters and events portrayed in that medium. I've
read lots of good stories that don't pretend to take place in any existing
continuity. "Coming Clean" is one of them. It basically takes place in a
"tech specs universe," but it's still a damn good Transformers story in its own
right.

Not that this has anything to do with your drawings, but you did ask, so there
ya go.

>>I'm certainly not going to get picky about a fan artist's portrayal of a
>>toy character who has no official cartoon/comics design to begin with,
>>though.
>
>...
>
>THE BOTCON COMIC *IS* OFFICIAL. What's in that comic IS his
>official design. Everything 3H does has to go through Hasbro.
>Therefore, Senior's drawing of Shocky is official, Matrix of Conquest on
>his pecs and all.

Right, the comic book itself is official BotCon stuff. What I'm getting at is
that a proper character model was never drawn up for Shokaract. There weren't
character models for any of the Micromasters (the guys at Marvel used box art
for reference) or the Action Masters, either (they just drew the toys
themselves, right down to the screws in their backs and legs). There were no
official character designs for the Deluxe Autobots or Deluxe Insecticons, so
I'm certainly not about to get picky about how they were drawn in whatever UK
comics they appeared in, either.

The point I am laboring to make is that if there *is* an official model in
existence, why not utilize it? If I'm a big fan of Dinobot's portrayal in the
TV series, why the hell am I going to want fan art of his toy appearance when
it doesn't capture the essence of the character I've grown so fond of?

Obviously, this argument doesn't apply directly to your mugshots, which of
course are based on the toys, first and foremost. As I said in an e-mail that
you never responded to, though, I can refrain from offering any more
constructive criticism, if you'd prefer.

>M "And For That Matter, Why Should You Be Getting Picky About Any
>Artist's Portrayal So Long As It Adheres To The Basic Design Of The
>Toy/Media Model In At Least Some Base Sense?" Sipher

Because I'm a nitpicker. It's what I do. :)


Zobovor, wondering if Soundwave would still have been colored purple if he'd
been made into an Action Master in the comics...

Walkerton

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Jun 4, 2001, 10:48:09 AM6/4/01
to
> >I don't see a problem with it...
>
> Really? When the cartoon Bumblebee doesn't *have* wheels on his arms and
> cartoon Dead End has a faceplate? :)

Absolutely not.

--David


Walkerton

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Jun 4, 2001, 10:51:53 AM6/4/01
to
> Zobovor, wondering if Soundwave would still have been colored purple if
he'd
> been made into an Action Master in the comics...

Yes. Yomtov colored him purple no matter what. He poohead.

--David
www.itswalky.com


Walkerton

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Jun 4, 2001, 10:52:53 AM6/4/01
to

Actually, come to think of it, why would Dead End smile? He's not a very
happy person. /:)

--David


Rapido

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Jun 4, 2001, 10:58:28 AM6/4/01
to
and they be the shit!

Good work, Siph. Keep it up. Love Nightbeat's "badge".

>=)

Jose Negron

Daniel Suh

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Jun 4, 2001, 12:02:15 PM6/4/01
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"Walkerton" <wii...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

> > Zobovor, wondering if Soundwave would still have been colored purple if
> he'd
> > been made into an Action Master in the comics...
>
> Yes. Yomtov colored him purple no matter what. He poohead.

Say, why is Soundwave purple in the comics anyway? And why does he have a
mouth? Looks kinda creepy without the face plate.

And why wasn't Bob Budiansky sacked right after creating Donny "Most Likely
To Still Be A Virgin At Age 40" Finkleberg

Suspsy

"People of the world, I am Robot-Master!" -DF
Laugh at me, give me a wedgie, and stuff me into a locker!


Pyre[Rock]

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Jun 4, 2001, 3:46:39 PM6/4/01
to
Zobovor wrote:
>
> If you are looking for a relevant complaint, though, it's the same problem I
> have with a lot of Dan Khanna's art, really. His group portraits are pretty
> nice, but I fail to understand why he'll do the cartoon version of Megatron,
> slap a cartoon face on the Soundwave toy, and throw in the toy versions of
> Rumble and Frenzy all in the same shot.

I think the reason he does this is that in most cases the toys have more
detail that the cartoon models, plus they're easier to get a hold of as
models than the cartoon versions.

--
Pyre[Rock] - the...@rica.net
http://home.rica.net/dcarson/therock/
"You can't feel my anger. You can't feel my pain.
You can't feel my torment driving me insane."

Zobovor

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Jun 4, 2001, 5:34:00 PM6/4/01
to
Walkerton wrote:

>Actually, come to think of it, why would Dead End smile? He's not a
>very happy person. /:)

So, you see no inherent problems in characters performing physically impossible
acts, but you question the characterization of Dead End cracking a smile.
Ooooooooookay. :)


Zobovor, was going to mention Jetfire's transformation sequence in issue #11,
but you'd likely not see any problems there, either...

Walkerton

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Jun 4, 2001, 6:18:13 PM6/4/01
to
> Say, why is Soundwave purple in the comics anyway? And why does he have a
> mouth? Looks kinda creepy without the face plate.

Soundwave only had the mouthplate when he was drawn by Jose Delbo. In
the original model sheets that Marvel got before they finalized them for the
cartoon, there was an ambiguous mark across his face that Delbo thought was
a mouth.

Hell if I know why he's purple in the US. They colored him right in the UK.

> And why wasn't Bob Budiansky sacked right after creating Donny "Most
Likely
> To Still Be A Virgin At Age 40" Finkleberg

Because 1) that story was pretty funny and I like it, and 2) Transformers
wasn't
that important a property to keep great quality-wise. Hell, it was an
unofficial
Stars comic for quite some time. As I mentioned before, you don't hear of
how they fired the Alf comic writer for writing hokey stupid unfunny
stories.

--David
www.itswalky.com


Walkerton

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Jun 4, 2001, 6:21:40 PM6/4/01
to
> >Actually, come to think of it, why would Dead End smile? He's not a
> >very happy person. /:)
>
> So, you see no inherent problems in characters performing physically
impossible
> acts, but you question the characterization of Dead End cracking a smile.
> Ooooooooookay. :)

Hey, if the Constructicons can toot trumpets during Starscream's coronation,
anything's possible. :)

Characterization, to me, is infinitely more important than whether Optimus
Prime
does or doesn't have wheels on his hips. I mean, sure, without them he
looks
like a boring pile of boxes, but that would grind on me less than if he
suddenly
started eating humans in sandwiches.

> Zobovor, was going to mention Jetfire's transformation sequence in issue
#11,
> but you'd likely not see any problems there, either...

Hey, if Megatron can grow fourteen times his size, a few extra tailwings
that don't
exist in either mode are of relatively little concern.

-David
www.itswalky.com


Walkerton

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Jun 4, 2001, 6:23:21 PM6/4/01
to
> I think the reason he does this is that in most cases the toys have more
> detail that the cartoon models, plus they're easier to get a hold of as
> models than the cartoon versions.

Plus they can *gasp* transform. Unlike SOME depictions...

--David
www.itswalky.com


Hooper X

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Jun 4, 2001, 6:28:52 PM6/4/01
to
>Characterization, to me, is infinitely more important than whether Optimus
>Prime
>does or doesn't have wheels on his hips. I mean, sure, without them he
>looks
>like a boring pile of boxes, but that would grind on me less than if he
>suddenly
>started eating humans in sandwiches.

Walky just hit the nail on the head.

-HX
"I must kill you, because God told me to." -Tigatron(?)

"Vooral die smeerlap van een Hooper X !! QWe hate yopu !!!!!!!!!" -Drunken
Dutchmen

www.sexsexworld.com <-PLEASE KILL MY LONELY.

To contact me, take off that stupid looking hat you wear.

Recharge

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Jun 4, 2001, 6:29:08 PM6/4/01
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On Mon, 04 Jun 2001 22:18:13 GMT, Walkerton attempted to make noise like the
humanoids and grunted:

>unofficial
>Stars comic for quite some time. As I mentioned before, you don't hear of
>how they fired the Alf comic writer for writing hokey stupid unfunny
>stories.

Of course they wouldn't. They ALF comic was the funniest thing on the market at
the time. Their Xmen parodies were PRICELESS.

Recharge, hey, the made me laugh at 9...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A heavy dose of reality...with a shot of piss and vinegar
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Zobovor

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Jun 4, 2001, 6:42:29 PM6/4/01
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Pyre [Rock] wrote:

>> I fail to understand why he'll do the cartoon version of Megatron,
>> slap a cartoon face on the Soundwave toy, and throw in the toy
>> versions of Rumble and Frenzy all in the same shot.
>
>I think the reason he does this is that in most cases the toys have
>more detail that the cartoon models, plus they're easier to get a hold of
>as models than the cartoon versions.

I should probably say as a foreword before the critics get on my case that I
don't hate Dan's art. His work, like that any fan artist, has room for
improvement, though. I also know he lurks/posts here occasionally so this
isn't intended as an affront behind his back, and I'm more than willing to
entertain rebuttals from him, too. (Did I cover all the bases on that one?)

Anyway, I can see how it might be fun to try to draw the toys because they're
more complicated in design and thus would be more challenging to capture their
likeness. I've done it on occasion, and there's nothing wrong with the
practice of drawing the toys for its own sake. There's also nothing inherently
wrong with throwing out existing canon--either stories, character designs, or
whatever--as long as you make no pretention of it existing in the same
universe. "Well, yeah, that's the same Optimus Prime from the cartoon, but
I've decided it would be kewl if his smokestacks were lasers in robot mode, and
he had spiked wheels on his hips just like Sideswipe from the G2 comics!
Whee!"

Needless to say, this attitude would have been disastrous if the animators had
applied it to the cartoon. Characters would appear differently in every
episode in which they appeared! (Actually, this does already happen to a small
extent, with Starscream's cockpit opening four or five different ways,
depending on what the animators felt like doing, to name but one example.)
This pretty much *was* the norm in the comics, which makes it damn near
impossible to get a feel for what some of the characters "really" looked like,
since every artist brought some new design modification to the table. Did
Thunderwing's Pretender shell have wings on his back? Did Scorponok have an
arm-mounted shield and his scorpion tail on his back in robot mode? And who
the hell knows *what* Optimus Prime actually looked like in the G2 comics. I
still have no idea whether that qualifies as a new body or not.

It's the same reason the Soundwave PVC kind of bugs me. It looks to me like
the reason they painted his cassette window black is because that's what the
toy looks like when there's no cassette inside him. Since it's almost
completely cartoon-accurate anyway, why not go the rest of the way and make the
window light blue like it's supposed to be?

For this reason, I personally would never use the toy for reference when
drawing a cartoon character just because I happen to have the toy handy.
That's just utterly lazy, especially with the preponderance of screen captures
and TFU profile scans and the like online. (Of course, half the comic
characters have slightly different designs than the cartoon guys. I never use
the TFU profiles as reference without at least doing a comparison to ensure
that it is indeed the same design.) I'm not saying that Dan does this, of
course.

Me, I find it more challenging to work within similar confines that the cartoon
animators did, and the comics artists to a lesser extent, and try to remain as
faithful as possible to the official depictions of the characters. Obviously
it's not a prerequisite, but I'm far more impressed when others do the same
than when they just make stuff up out of the blue and pass it off as an
existing character.

--
Zobovor

ZMFTS: Yeah, the letters stand for something.
http://members.aol.com/zobovor/index.html

M Sipher

unread,
Jun 4, 2001, 7:02:55 PM6/4/01
to
Zobovor <zob...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010604035105...@ng-cb1.aol.com...

> The point I am laboring to make is that if there *is* an official model in
> existence, why not utilize it?

Three reasons.

1) A lot of the official models suck. Yeah, that's a purely subjective
point, but still. To this day I cannot get over how crappy and boring
Ratchet & Ironhides' show-models are.

2) The reason those models exist is so that the characters will remain as
consistant as possible from scene to scene in the CARTOONS, since many many
people will work on a single episode, and in some case, among many different
animation houses. That's it. Nowhere else in even the official TF universe
do you really see a strict adherance to a set model. Not in the Marvel
comics, not in the Japanese TF toy catalogs, not the Japanese manga... as
each artist did their work, they added their own spin. As they should.

3) Everyone using the same model for art, ESPECIALLY fan-art, would be so
damn BORING it's not funny. That's one of the major reasons I WENT to using
the toys as the models for my art regardless of character... the vast
majority of the art I see nowadays uses the animation models. (That and my
whole "the core of the TF universe is the toys" thing.) And you'll notice
that even THEN I stray, adding details and "paint applications" that don't
actually exist. Hell, I don't think I draw ANYTHING anymore that doesn't go
"off-model" in some fashion. It's good to be ABLE to draw totally on-model,
but any artist, I feel, should strive to make their OWN mark and look rather
than diligently ape something that already exists.

> If I'm a big fan of Dinobot's portrayal in the
> TV series, why the hell am I going to want fan art of his toy appearance
when
> it doesn't capture the essence of the character I've grown so fond of?

Well, if you were to comission a BW Dinobot, then you have every right to
request it be drawn according to whatever model you wish, or even using NO
model.

But I personally am not about to dismiss any given piece of art simply
because it wasn't based on a specific source. I LIKE seeing different
interpretations of the same character.

I love Yaniger's TFs. They stray from the conventional models HEAVILY.
Prime's got toy-wheels and hubs in his arms. Grimlock... Grimlock. Wow.
That's the single-best dino-mode Grimlock ever made.

I love Senior's TFs, oversimplified and all. He gets such wonderful emotion
out of a few simple lines, and can depict mass very well. It's much more...
oh, what's the word... impressionist? Whatever. It's the polar opposite of
what I do, but I love it. It works much better in the comic medium than in
animation, though.

And two words. TRANSFORMERS CHRONICLES. Ichikawa's fucking EXCELLENT
fan-comic. This guy used the toys to draw EVERYONE, and then took it a step
further and made them look REAL. Pistons & gears in the joints. Ironhide was
GREAT, he looked like a piece of ancient heavy industrial machinery, which
he pretty much IS as a character. They look like they're objects that should
exist in the real world, unlike the cartoon models. His art kicks ass. His
art kicks the ass of every other TF artist, official or fan, ever.

To think of CHRONICLES done using the Romita animation models... I may never
stop crying.

> As I said in an e-mail that
> you never responded to, though, I can refrain from offering any more
> constructive criticism, if you'd prefer.

No, I'm all for replies. It's nice to know SOMEONE'S looking at the damn
things.

What I didn't like, though, was quite specifically the use of the word
"cheatsy", which for all the world I can't see as anything BUT negative, and
your reasoning behind this remark utterly baffles me. I simply intended
Nightbeat's Mugshot to be a tribute to his very first US appearance of note
(a short animated commercial don't really do it for me) and entry into the
halls of cool TFs.

> Zobovor, wondering if Soundwave would still have been colored purple if
he'd
> been made into an Action Master in the comics...

Yes, of course he would. Because the coloring on the TF books have typically
stunk on ice.


M "Now, I Admit My Mid-80's Comic Knowledge Is Minimal, But They HAD To Be
Doing Better Jobs On Other Books..." Sipher

Douglas W. Dlin

unread,
Jun 4, 2001, 7:15:47 PM6/4/01
to
M "Mighty Mugshots, Mighty Vehicles" Sipher wrote:
>
> Various and sundry additions. More to come soon, hopefully.
>
Lookin' good as always, Sipher. One question: Is it feasible to use a
different background color on these besides black. Many of the darker
areas of the mugshots otherwise tend to blend into the background.
Maybe a paler grey?

Doug Dlin
ap...@hotmail.com

Daniel Suh

unread,
Jun 4, 2001, 7:40:22 PM6/4/01
to
"Walkerton" <wii...@hotmail.com> wrote in

> Soundwave only had the mouthplate when he was drawn by Jose Delbo. In
> the original model sheets that Marvel got before they finalized them for
the
> cartoon, there was an ambiguous mark across his face that Delbo thought
was
> a mouth.

Damn Delbo.

> > And why wasn't Bob Budiansky sacked right after creating Donny "Most
> Likely
> > To Still Be A Virgin At Age 40" Finkleberg
>
> Because 1) that story was pretty funny and I like it,

Ehhhh, 'funny' isn't the word I'd use. 'Stupid' is more like it. But that's
just me.

>2) Transformers
> wasn't
> that important a property to keep great quality-wise.

Fair enough, but I still think Budiansky was either stoned or delusional
half the time he was writing it. I mean c'mon, Optimus Prime committing
suicide over a FREAKIN' VIDEO GAME???

Suspsy

"Expect betrayal and your friends won't disappoint you." -Slugfest


Hooper X

unread,
Jun 4, 2001, 8:16:46 PM6/4/01
to
>Characters would appear differently in every
>episode in which they appeared!

How many ways did Hot Rod transform in TFTM?

Also: The animators DID have a handy reference laying right next to them. We
at home have no such benefit, and, as such, like to exercise our minds a little
bit, think outside the box.

Walkerton

unread,
Jun 4, 2001, 8:20:07 PM6/4/01
to
> I love Yaniger's TFs. They stray from the conventional models HEAVILY.
> Prime's got toy-wheels and hubs in his arms. Grimlock... Grimlock. Wow.
> That's the single-best dino-mode Grimlock ever made.

There's a huge difference between "Wow, that Grimlock looks kickass"
and "Wow, that Grimlock looks just like Romita's model."

> I love Senior's TFs, oversimplified and all. He gets such wonderful
emotion
> out of a few simple lines, and can depict mass very well. It's much
more...
> oh, what's the word... impressionist? Whatever. It's the polar opposite of
> what I do, but I love it. It works much better in the comic medium than in
> animation, though.

Actually, I'd like to see Senior-y stuff animated. Animation works best
when
there's fewer lines and thus easier to work with fluidly. Despite Romita's
designs' utter homogenousity (is that a word? i'm not even trying) and
simplicity,
they still weren't designed very well for animation. And they were boring.
And homogenous. And homogenous.

> And two words. TRANSFORMERS CHRONICLES. Ichikawa's fucking EXCELLENT
> fan-comic. This guy used the toys to draw EVERYONE, and then took it a
step
> further and made them look REAL. Pistons & gears in the joints. Ironhide
was
> GREAT, he looked like a piece of ancient heavy industrial machinery, which
> he pretty much IS as a character. They look like they're objects that
should
> exist in the real world, unlike the cartoon models. His art kicks ass. His
> art kicks the ass of every other TF artist, official or fan, ever.

Hell yes. Preach it, brother. Ichikawa is our lord.

> To think of CHRONICLES done using the Romita animation models... I may
never
> stop crying.

...eeee.
Don't SAY that, Siph. Damn.

> No, I'm all for replies. It's nice to know SOMEONE'S looking at the damn
> things.

Mmm, Siph, Sonar's lookin' pretty hot.

> What I didn't like, though, was quite specifically the use of the word
> "cheatsy", which for all the world I can't see as anything BUT negative,
and
> your reasoning behind this remark utterly baffles me. I simply intended
> Nightbeat's Mugshot to be a tribute to his very first US appearance of
note
> (a short animated commercial don't really do it for me) and entry into the
> halls of cool TFs.

You're preaching to the choir, man.

> Yes, of course he would. Because the coloring on the TF books have
typically
> stunk on ice.

Yes.

--David


Walkerton

unread,
Jun 4, 2001, 8:21:53 PM6/4/01
to
> Anyway, I can see how it might be fun to try to draw the toys because
they're
> more complicated in design and thus would be more challenging to capture
their
> likeness. I've done it on occasion, and there's nothing wrong with the
> practice of drawing the toys for its own sake. There's also nothing
inherently
> wrong with throwing out existing canon--either stories, character designs,
or
> whatever--as long as you make no pretention of it existing in the same
> universe.

So, if I were to reanimate the final battle between Optimus Prime and
Megatron
in the movie, but drawing them like their toys, I would be incorrect to say
"This is what happened?"

--David
www.itswalky.com


Walkerton

unread,
Jun 4, 2001, 8:23:37 PM6/4/01
to
> Me, I find it more challenging to work within similar confines that the
cartoon
> animators did, and the comics artists to a lesser extent, and try to
remain as
> faithful as possible to the official depictions of the characters.
Obviously
> it's not a prerequisite, but I'm far more impressed when others do the
same
> than when they just make stuff up out of the blue and pass it off as an
> existing character.

Sorry, Zob, but I think this is the saddest thing I've ever read.

--David
www.itswalky.com


Walkerton

unread,
Jun 4, 2001, 8:24:53 PM6/4/01
to
> Fair enough, but I still think Budiansky was either stoned or delusional
> half the time he was writing it. I mean c'mon, Optimus Prime committing
> suicide over a FREAKIN' VIDEO GAME???

Budiansky's strongpoint was always characterization, obviously, and not
plot-building. He and Furman should have worked things out together.
Best of both worlds, man.

--David


ShadowWing

unread,
Jun 4, 2001, 7:54:35 PM6/4/01
to

Daniel Suh wrote

>Fair enough, but I still think Budiansky was either stoned or delusional
>half the time he was writing it. I mean c'mon, Optimus Prime committing
>suicide over a FREAKIN' VIDEO GAME???

I still say he did that as a sort of protest against Hasbro's mandate to
kill him off. Heck, making Grimlock the new leader should be proof enough of
that. :) That may not actually be the case, and Budiansky could of been just
showing how dedicated Optimus was to his ideals, but I can hope.

I've also heard complaints about sticking his whole mind on to a 5 1/4
floppy disk. Then again, it's not like Marvel's gotten science wrong before.
Iron Man's first few armors were powered by *transistors*! Sometimes you
have to remember the time the story's written.
______________________________________________
| HEROIC AUTOBOT ^ ^ {ShadowWing} |
| AMONG MAXIMALS |()| { transfan} |
| [CYBERTRON] \/ Ż||Ż||Ż||ŻŻ |
|ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ Ż Ż ŻŻŻŻŻŻ|
|Function: /\ /\ str: 7.0|
|Guardian / \ ()/ \ int: 8.5|
|Motto:"One's true / /\ o[]o/\ \ spd: 9.0|
|form lies within." / ——o—[]—o—— \ end: 7.0|
|Survivor of every / / / 00 \ \ \rnk: 6.0|
|Transformer war. 00 cor:10.0|
|More information on line ^^ fire:5.4|
|Visit THE TRANSFORMATION ZONE skl: 9.2|
|http://pages.cthome.net/ShadowWing |
|last updated on 4/1/2001 AD |
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Sky, Unicron's Advocate

unread,
Jun 4, 2001, 8:51:41 PM6/4/01
to
"Walkerton" wrote:

> Budiansky's strongpoint was always characterization, obviously,

How is this obvious? With the exception of the Transformers Universe,
nothing Budiansi wrote came close to Furman's characterisation or
(obviously) Furman's epic plots. Furman had years of developing the
characters Budiansky christened, just by filling in the vast blanks between
the U.S. stories. When he finally came to take over the U.S. reins, he had
not only written at least as much about the existing characters as
Budianski, but he had also written about dozens of characters that Budianski
never had (or would). Even after becoming the writer of TFUS, Furman
continued to write between the lines in his 5-page U.K. back-up stories.

I can't think of a Transformer who received more characterisation at the
hands of Budianski than at Furman's.

Scrounge doesn't count:)

Sky Shadow.
--
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Cybertron to be born?


ShadowWing

unread,
Jun 4, 2001, 8:39:53 PM6/4/01
to

Walkerton wrote

>> And two words. TRANSFORMERS CHRONICLES. Ichikawa's fucking EXCELLENT
>> fan-comic. This guy used the toys to draw EVERYONE, and then took it a
>>step further and made them look REAL. Pistons & gears in the joints.

The G2 comic had wires and stuff showing and the art in that was the
worst official art I've seen.

>Hell yes. Preach it, brother. Ichikawa is our lord.

Can someone point me to pics of his work? I'm curious as to what you
guys are refering to. Plus I happen to like fancomics.

Sky, Unicron's Advocate

unread,
Jun 4, 2001, 8:57:59 PM6/4/01
to
I wrote:

> Budiansi

<snip>

> Budiansky

<snip>

> Budianski

Please assume I mean the second one:)

Sky Shadow (needs breakfast).

Hooper X

unread,
Jun 4, 2001, 8:59:36 PM6/4/01
to
>I can't think of a Transformer who received more characterisation at the
>hands of Budianski than at Furman's.

Blaster.

Hooper X

unread,
Jun 4, 2001, 9:11:52 PM6/4/01
to
>>I can't think of a Transformer who received more characterisation at the
>>hands of Budianski than at Furman's.
>
>Blaster.

Also, as a followup to my own post:
Ratchet and Shockwave. Without Budiansky's previous (badass)
characterizations, Furman would have had nowhere to start from.

Actually, given that Budiansky reportedly wrote most of the G1 tech specs, I
think it's safe to say that without him, Furman wouldn't have had a leg to
stand on, character-wise.

-HX, and you're still a cuntrag, Sky.

M Sipher

unread,
Jun 4, 2001, 9:51:07 PM6/4/01
to
ShadowWing <the...@SPAMBLOCKADEsnet.net> wrote in message
news:i6WS6.939$ld7.1...@typhoon.snet.net...

> Walkerton wrote
> >> And two words. TRANSFORMERS CHRONICLES. Ichikawa's fucking EXCELLENT
> >> fan-comic. This guy used the toys to draw EVERYONE, and then took it a
> >>step further and made them look REAL. Pistons & gears in the joints.
>
> The G2 comic had wires and stuff showing and the art in that was the
> worst official art I've seen.

Surely you must be referring to Galan's work, in which case I'd agree.
Yaniger's stuff kicks ass, however.

But the CHRONICLES mechanical greeblies aren't the random wires & tubes of
G2. They are moving joints, pistons, swivels and the like. They LOOK like
geniune, working machinery. In a close-up of Hot Rod in one panel, you can
see into the space between his chest and arm, and Ichiwaka fills it with an
array of pistons and struts that has been painstakingly designed to
realistically give his arm a full range of motion.

And this level of detail is kept CONSISTANT throughout the book. There's
none of the "magic bendy metal" you get with the Romita-model versions at
the elbows and such. (With the exception of those characters with normal
mouths, which there's really no getting around on that score. They must have
magic bendy-metal mouths.) It is simply THE most realistic depiction of the
Transformers ever made, using the toys as the base.

(I mean, in a rear view of Smokescreen, he included the door handles and
window-rollers! THAT is attention to real-life detail, dammit.)

> >Hell yes. Preach it, brother. Ichikawa is our lord.
>
> Can someone point me to pics of his work? I'm curious as to what you
> guys are refering to. Plus I happen to like fancomics.

I don't think there are any online scans of his work, offhand. And if anyone
puts up the full book, they should be gutted and strung up to dry. BUY THE
BOOK. This man deserves the money.

But Doug Dlin should know, since he did the translation work for it.


M "CHRONICLES Is Simply THE Answer To ANY Argument Over Sticking To A Single
Model. Period. Its Very Existance Is A Testament To Doing Something Cool And
Different" Sipher

Sky, Unicron's Advocate

unread,
Jun 4, 2001, 10:01:44 PM6/4/01
to
"M Sipher" wrote:

> I don't think there are any online scans of his work, offhand. And if
anyone
> puts up the full book, they should be gutted and strung up to dry. BUY THE
> BOOK. This man deserves the money.

Apparently scans are eventually going to be forthcoming at:

http://www.seibertron.com/comics/jpn/

Look at this as either good or bad, depending on your attitude to copyright
and capitalism (although, even sample pages online would be a good way to
display the brilliance to which Sipher is referring).

Sky Shadow.

M Sipher

unread,
Jun 4, 2001, 10:11:09 PM6/4/01
to
Walkerton <wii...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:XAVS6.2640$yW2....@ord-read.news.verio.net...

> > I love Yaniger's TFs. They stray from the conventional models HEAVILY.
> > Prime's got toy-wheels and hubs in his arms. Grimlock... Grimlock. Wow.
> > That's the single-best dino-mode Grimlock ever made.
>
> There's a huge difference between "Wow, that Grimlock looks kickass"
> and "Wow, that Grimlock looks just like Romita's model."

I am simply not impressed in any manner by people who draw exactly like
someone else. I sat next to one at the last convention I went to. He had
some TF model sheets he downloaded from Takara's site and was drawing based
exactly on them. And while he did emulate them well... well, lemme put it
this way. Selling art, I think he made ten bucks on one print over the
weekend.

I, however, made a good... lemme see... at LEAST a hundred on prints and
commisions once you take out expenses, I didn't keep exact track of what I
made and spent that weekend. And here's me not drawing the exact models on
ANYTHING.

Aping someone else's character style and such will only take you so far.
It's a good base skill to have, and that's really it if you aspire to be
anything more than an animator monkey chained to a table.

> Despite Romita's
> designs' utter homogenousity (is that a word? i'm not even trying) and
> simplicity,
> they still weren't designed very well for animation.

No, they weren't. They were designed for standing stock-still in that TFU
pose. Even as a kid, I looked at them and went "How do they BEND?!"

> > To think of CHRONICLES done using the Romita animation models... I may
> never
> > stop crying.
>
> ...eeee.
> Don't SAY that, Siph. Damn.

Sometimes one must stare into the void in order to better oneself for future
horrors.

> > No, I'm all for replies. It's nice to know SOMEONE'S looking at the damn
> > things.
>
> Mmm, Siph, Sonar's lookin' pretty hot.

I like how that came out. Yes, I've updated here and there since the initial
post.


M "Drawing Walky's Characters Only Sorta Like Walky Does..." Sipher

M Sipher

unread,
Jun 4, 2001, 10:18:25 PM6/4/01
to
Walkerton <wii...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:dEVS6.2642$yW2....@ord-read.news.verio.net...

I can't agree more. I think the world of comic-art (both professional and
fan) is already filled with far too many people who just draw like some
other established person, who don't try to develop their OWN look, try to do
something different, to stand out.

Back to that anime convention mentioned in another post on this thread, I
saw TONS of that. People drawing like whoever the hell does Dragon Ball Z.
People drawing like Fred Perry (whose art is noteworthy for being animeish
yet being a style all its own), people drawing like whatever piece of
mechandise with an anime character slapped on it they happen to have. That's
their dream, their goal. To Be Like Someone Else.

I wept.

One girl, her first show, was showing her artbook and apologizing with "I'm
sorry, it's not anime-like..." to which I replied "Who CARES?! This is good
stuff!" It was. It was her OWN look. If I wanted Dragon-Ball-Z-looking art,
I'll go get some of the official stuff.


M "Dammit, Give Me Reinterpretation In Fan-Art!" Sipher

Trent Troop

unread,
Jun 4, 2001, 10:30:27 PM6/4/01
to

> I should probably say as a foreword before the critics get on my case that
I
> don't hate Dan's art. His work, like that any fan artist, has room for
> improvement, though. I also know he lurks/posts here occasionally so this
> isn't intended as an affront behind his back, and I'm more than willing to
> entertain rebuttals from him, too. (Did I cover all the bases on that
one?)

Dan's artistic ability isn't at stake here. Really. In fact, the ability of
any artist on this group, or in the fandom as a whole, is completely
irrelivant to this topic...

> "Well, yeah, that's the same Optimus Prime from the cartoon, but
> I've decided it would be kewl if his smokestacks were lasers in robot
mode, and
> he had spiked wheels on his hips just like Sideswipe from the G2 comics!
> Whee!"

Flexible representation is the luxury of the artist. One can argue that the
cartoon designs were simplified for ease of animation (which they were) and
the enhanced level of detail in the scene is entirely reasonable. And I
don't see Prime's smokestacks serving as lasers being any more silly than
the numerous other pop up once, never see again weapons the 'toon had.
Energon-az, anyone?

> Needless to say, this attitude would have been disastrous if the animators
had
> applied it to the cartoon. Characters would appear differently in every
> episode in which they appeared! (Actually, this does already happen to a
small
> extent, with Starscream's cockpit opening four or five different ways,
> depending on what the animators felt like doing, to name but one example.)

The model sheets were developed for ease of animation, and visual continuity
in the 'toon. If I, for example, do a couple of stories in the 'toon
continuity, but characters look more toy-like, but they're consistantly toy
like, how is that anything bad? Then again, am I locked into having to draw
like Romita if I'm going to do toon stuff? What if my drawing style is more
like Yanigers, or Bruce Timm's, or Pat Lee's, or heaven forbid, my own?
People's styles are going to differ from what's come before, and I think its
acceptable to bring one's own style into things. I've seen people with very
abstracted, simplified styles, I've seen gritty and realistic, and I've seen
amazingly toy-accurate. I don't see how anyone can say that we should be
bound to the designs established by any given continuity. Now personal taste
makes me lean towards modififed toy-designs, or designs that are very
simplified, angular and abstract, like Geoff Senior or Bruce Timm's styles
would produce.

> It's the same reason the Soundwave PVC kind of bugs me. It looks to me
like
> the reason they painted his cassette window black is because that's what
the
> toy looks like when there's no cassette inside him. Since it's almost
> completely cartoon-accurate anyway, why not go the rest of the way and
make the
> window light blue like it's supposed to be?

Because, as artists, they had the option to determine what "supposed to be"
was...

> For this reason, I personally would never use the toy for reference when
> drawing a cartoon character just because I happen to have the toy handy.
> That's just utterly lazy, especially with the preponderance of screen
captures
> and TFU profile scans and the like online. (Of course, half the comic
> characters have slightly different designs than the cartoon guys. I never
use
> the TFU profiles as reference without at least doing a comparison to
ensure
> that it is indeed the same design.) I'm not saying that Dan does this, of
> course.

Of course, there's the alternative, that they are being used because those
are the designs the artist prefer, or they're the style that fits their work
the most. I don't see how you have a standpoint to criticism on this
concept. If you don't like the work in general, that's alright. But its a
rather arbitrary judgement there.

> Me, I find it more challenging to work within similar confines that the
cartoon
> animators did, and the comics artists to a lesser extent, and try to
remain as
> faithful as possible to the official depictions of the characters.
Obviously
> it's not a prerequisite, but I'm far more impressed when others do the
same
> than when they just make stuff up out of the blue and pass it off as an
> existing character.

I'm sorry, I have to disagree immensely. I'm all for thematic unity, but
creativity and expression are factors, and I'm not illustrating for a 1985
TV show, I'm illustrating for detailed pinups and the like, and style is
what makes or breaks the art.

-Trent

(apologies for doublesending this, Zob, newsreader button pushing mistake)


M Sipher

unread,
Jun 4, 2001, 10:35:22 PM6/4/01
to
Sky, Unicron's Advocate <jorda...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:g4XS6.2184$QW4....@ozemail.com.au...

> "M Sipher" wrote:
>
> > I don't think there are any online scans of his work, offhand. And if
> anyone
> > puts up the full book, they should be gutted and strung up to dry. BUY
THE
> > BOOK. This man deserves the money.
>
> Apparently scans are eventually going to be forthcoming at:
>
> http://www.seibertron.com/comics/jpn/
>
> Look at this as either good or bad, depending on your attitude to
copyright
> and capitalism (although, even sample pages online would be a good way to
> display the brilliance to which Sipher is referring).

One or two sample images I won't argue. That's fine. If it gets more people
to buy his book, great.

BUT.

The whole comic?

Since Ichikawa is still SELLING copies of this, then I'd rank seibertron
somewhere below whaleshit on the fan-spectrum if they put up the entire
book.

And the artist will be notified. Oh yes.


M "I Take Art Theft Seriously. If I Could, I'd Take It Seriously With A
Large Axe" Sipher

ShadowWing

unread,
Jun 4, 2001, 10:29:13 PM6/4/01
to

M Sipher wrote in message <9fhdnn$736$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net>...

>ShadowWing <the...@SPAMBLOCKADEsnet.net> wrote in message

>> The G2 comic had wires and stuff showing and the art in that was


>>the worst official art I've seen.
>
>Surely you must be referring to Galan's work, in which case I'd agree.

I think that turned me off to G2 more than the story. Of course, I
finally caught the "budding" debut, so there may be more than that. :)
Still, I thought #10 was the worse are I'd seen. The Joes weren't drawn that
well either. I'm not sure if it's worse than the art in the current Iron Man
issues, but it's pretty bad.

>But the CHRONICLES mechanical greeblies aren't the random wires & tubes
>of G2. They are moving joints, pistons, swivels and the like. They LOOK
>like geniune, working machinery. In a close-up of Hot Rod in one panel,
>you can see into the space between his chest and arm, and Ichiwaka fills
>it with an array of pistons and struts that has been painstakingly
>designed to realistically give his arm a full range of motion.

At the same time, wouldn't it be a rather vulnerable spot to attack? I
always figured some plates or something slid in to cover those points. Your
descriptions about how the "car kibble" sounds like how it should be done,
though.

>And this level of detail is kept CONSISTANT throughout the book. There's
>none of the "magic bendy metal" you get with the Romita-model versions at
>the elbows and such.

"Magic bendy metal"?

>(With the exception of those characters with normal mouths, which there's
>really no getting around on that score. They must have magic bendy-metal
>mouths.)

Not to mention being entry points. In the cartoon they constantly
"drink" and "eat" energon, depending on what form they use. And Megatron
tries to eat the coal in #15.

>I don't think there are any online scans of his work, offhand. And if
>anyone puts up the full book, they should be gutted and strung up to dry.
>BUY THE BOOK. This man deserves the money.

I wouldn't know how to *get* the book.

>But Doug Dlin should know, since he did the translation work for it.

So this is in Japanese? Slag, I have enough untranslated manga,
including a huge Mazinger Z book.

ShadowWing

unread,
Jun 4, 2001, 10:34:44 PM6/4/01
to

Sky, Unicron's Advocate wrote

>Apparently scans are eventually going to be forthcoming at:
>
>http://www.seibertron.com/comics/jpn/

Thanks. I'll have to keep an eye out for it.

>(E)ven sample pages online would be a good way to


>display the brilliance to which Sipher is referring).

That's really all I was asking for, although I wouldn't mind a full
comic; but if I can't read it (since I can't understand Japanese), just a
look at this famed artwork would suffice.

Walkerton

unread,
Jun 4, 2001, 10:44:53 PM6/4/01
to
> The G2 comic had wires and stuff showing and the art in that was the
> worst official art I've seen.

Definitely not what we're talking about.

> >Hell yes. Preach it, brother. Ichikawa is our lord.

> Can someone point me to pics of his work? I'm curious as to what you
> guys are refering to. Plus I happen to like fancomics.

http://www.bigbot.com/doug/

There's some scans here and information on how to order it. I highly
highly HIGHLY recommend it.

--David
www.itswalky.com


Hooks

unread,
Jun 4, 2001, 10:47:05 PM6/4/01
to

Hooper X <emar...@aol.comsillyhat> wrote in message
news:20010604211152...@ng-fg1.aol.com...

> Actually, given that Budiansky reportedly wrote most of the G1 tech specs,
I
> think it's safe to say that without him, Furman wouldn't have had a leg to
> stand on, character-wise.

Let's also not forget that most of Furman's characters have The Exact Same
Personality.

Sure, he can write them great, but if 85% of the characters boast the same
personality traits, that isn't really a great accomplishment.

(And yes, I've read all the UK books.)

(X)

Walkerton

unread,
Jun 4, 2001, 10:52:08 PM6/4/01
to
> > Budiansky's strongpoint was always characterization, obviously,
>
> How is this obvious? With the exception of the Transformers Universe,
> nothing Budiansi wrote came close to Furman's characterisation or
> (obviously) Furman's epic plots. Furman had years of developing the
> characters Budiansky christened, just by filling in the vast blanks
between
> the U.S. stories. When he finally came to take over the U.S. reins, he
had
> not only written at least as much about the existing characters as
> Budianski, but he had also written about dozens of characters that
Budianski
> never had (or would). Even after becoming the writer of TFUS, Furman
> continued to write between the lines in his 5-page U.K. back-up stories.

When left to his own devices, Furman's characters usually resorted to the
usual purple angsty dialogue that Furman is either loved or hated for.

Second, Bob Budiansky created Cool-Ass Grimlock That Isn't The STupid
Grimlock On The Cartoon, used and characterized him first. Bob just got
weird in his middle years, and I'm guessing tried to emulate the cartoon's
Grimlock.

Bob created Kickass Bad Mofo Shockwave, and used him first.

Bob created the Ratchet we all know and love, and set him up for what
Furman expanded on later.

Bob created Blaster. Furman never used Blaster.

Bob wrote every single one of the early character bios, was the editor of
the original four-issue series (even though he didn't write it), and
practically
created both the cartoon and the comic universes, especially at the
beginning.

Just because Bob got tired of dealing with Hasbro and didn't feel
particularly
inspired as time went on doesn't negate his original accomplishments.

> I can't think of a Transformer who received more characterisation at the
> hands of Budianski than at Furman's.

Hrm.
Ratchet (Furman merely expanded on him)
Shockwave
Megatron
Straxus
Blaster
Skids

--David
www.itswalky.com


Walkerton

unread,
Jun 4, 2001, 10:57:01 PM6/4/01
to
> Back to that anime convention mentioned in another post on this thread, I
> saw TONS of that. People drawing like whoever the hell does Dragon Ball Z.
> People drawing like Fred Perry (whose art is noteworthy for being animeish
> yet being a style all its own), people drawing like whatever piece of
> mechandise with an anime character slapped on it they happen to have.
That's
> their dream, their goal. To Be Like Someone Else.

That's half the people in my art school. A bunch of people who spend all
day trying to draw Anime. Some can, and some obviously will never be
able to draw anything beyond stupid robot anime ninjas that break every
known rule known to man.

Who's going to be hired out of our lot? The 50 people who draw the
same f***ing style or the guys who have the initiative to do their own
stuff? If you want only to copy a style, I know where there's a Kinko's
nearby where you can get photocopies.

--David


M Sipher

unread,
Jun 4, 2001, 11:12:23 PM6/4/01
to
ShadowWing <the...@SPAMBLOCKADEsnet.net> wrote in message
news:jyXS6.957$ld7.1...@typhoon.snet.net...

> M Sipher wrote in message <9fhdnn$736$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net>...
> >ShadowWing <the...@SPAMBLOCKADEsnet.net> wrote in message
>

> >But the CHRONICLES mechanical greeblies aren't the random wires & tubes
> >of G2. They are moving joints, pistons, swivels and the like. They LOOK
> >like geniune, working machinery. In a close-up of Hot Rod in one panel,
> >you can see into the space between his chest and arm, and Ichiwaka fills
> >it with an array of pistons and struts that has been painstakingly
> >designed to realistically give his arm a full range of motion.
>
> At the same time, wouldn't it be a rather vulnerable spot to attack? I
> always figured some plates or something slid in to cover those points.

Yeah, but it's REALISTIC is the point. No magically-appearing panels or
such. It's living machinery.

> >And this level of detail is kept CONSISTANT throughout the book. There's
> >none of the "magic bendy metal" you get with the Romita-model versions at
> >the elbows and such.
>
> "Magic bendy metal"?

Yes. Watch, say, Ratchet. Where EXACTLY are the joints on his arms? He
doesn't have an elbow, the bicep metal just goes directly into the forearm
sleeve. Which bends when his arm moves. How can he put his arms out to the
side?

> >I don't think there are any online scans of his work, offhand. And if
> >anyone puts up the full book, they should be gutted and strung up to dry.
> >BUY THE BOOK. This man deserves the money.
>
> I wouldn't know how to *get* the book.

Well, Fumihiko should most likely have copies at BotCon, and I'm sure Doug
can fill us in on ordering info...

Ah, I see Walky has provided all the neccessary info. Thank you, Walky.
Scans, too. Including Ironhide.

> >But Doug Dlin should know, since he did the translation work for it.
>
> So this is in Japanese? Slag, I have enough untranslated manga,
> including a huge Mazinger Z book.

No, I DID say "translation work". There's a Japanese version, and then
there's an English version translated by Doug, which is what is sold at
BotCon.


M "This, To Me, Is THE Pinnacle Of TF Art. It Wallops My Pasty Ass." Sipher

Senex Prime [Cameron Booth]

unread,
Jun 4, 2001, 11:28:57 PM6/4/01
to
In article <sPXS6.2648$yW2....@ord-read.news.verio.net>, "Walkerton"
<wii...@hotmail.com> wrote:


>
> > I can't think of a Transformer who received more characterisation at the
> > hands of Budianski than at Furman's.
>
> Hrm.
> Ratchet (Furman merely expanded on him)
> Shockwave
> Megatron
> Straxus
> Blaster
> Skids

Furman's Straxus had MUCH better characterisation than Budiansky's...
Budiansky's just shouted a lot and killed his own men by getting them to
run across a defective space bridge. Your fairly typical big, stupid
unimaginative evil leader type. Dullsville. All he needs is the top hat
and the twirly mustache to make a great pantomime villain...

Furman's Straxus, now that's another thing altogether... his body
destroyed by Blaster, he still commands the Decepticons on Cybertron from
his life support bubble. When Megatron returns to Cybertron with Optimus
Prime, Straxus feels threatened by both Prime's efforts in revitalising
the Autobot resistance, and by Megatron's insane efforts to destroy
Prime. He's got motivation -- reasons for acting the way he does -- which
was so often lacking in Budiansky stories. The mind swap sequence between
Megatron and Straxus is the climax to a fantastic issue... Furman's first
"Return To Cybertron" story is much, much stronger than Budiansky's,
IMHO, and his characterisation of Straxus is one of the main reasons.

--
Senex Prime "Not THE Prime, just A Prime!"
------
Arc Of Cybertron: http://members.fortunecity.com/arcof/cybertron.html
UK Comic & Annual Scans, The UK Comics Links List, plus my Fan Art!
NEW FAN ART COMIC STRIP "DIVERGENCE" NOW ON-LINE!!!

Zobovor

unread,
Jun 5, 2001, 12:00:52 AM6/5/01
to
M Sipher wrote:

>I think the world of comic-art (both professional and fan) is already filled
>with far too many people who just draw like some other established
>person, who don't try to develop their OWN look, try to do something
>different, to stand out.

Am I not speaking clearly or something? </unicron>

I'm not referring to artists mimicking someone else's artistic style. I'm
talking about the very basic concept of staying true to a character's design.
When McFarlane worked on the Spider-Man book, he liked to piss off the powers
that be by putting too much black in Spidey's costume or making the eyes too
large or drawing what he referred to as "spaghetti-webbing." That's about as
radical an interpretation of the character as we're ever likely to see on an
official level, but the character was still fundamentally the same--it's not
like McFarlane up and decided that Spidey wore a cape or had a pair of
spinnerets sticking out of his butt.

--
Zobovor

ZMFTS: Yeah, the letters stand for something.
http://members.aol.com/zobovor/index.html

Zobovor

unread,
Jun 5, 2001, 12:01:22 AM6/5/01
to
Hooper X wrote:

>>Characters would appear differently in every episode in which they
>>appeared!
>

>How many ways did Hot Rod transform in TFTM?

Two or three, I think. And there were at least three different versions of Hot
Rod's cartoon model: The early design with the rounded shoulders and black
tires on his arms, which was the one retained by Marvel for use in the comics;
the finished model which includes an incorrect placement of his Autobot symbol
on his "collar" (this one appears in the toy commercial, and the early movie
trailer if I'm not mistaken); and the final version that was used in the movie
and most cartoon episodes. Using the movie as the basis for which of these was
the final, approved model, I consider the first two to be inaccurate.

Meanwhile, how many different permutations of Jhiaxus were there? I'm not
talking different artists' interpretations of the character, either.

>Also: The animators DID have a handy reference laying right next to
>them. We at home have no such benefit, and, as such, like to
>exercise our minds a little bit, think outside the box.

I'd say that's a pretty sloppy approach. If your goal is to draw the character
accurately, but don't have a proper reference to work from, MAKE one. I've
drawn up dozens of my own character models for use as reference (and most of
them were done long before I had a complete collection of TFU profiles).

...However, since I appear to have been collectively declared to be in the
wrong, I believe I'll simply drop the issue entirely.

Walkerton

unread,
Jun 5, 2001, 12:10:30 AM6/5/01
to
> Furman's Straxus had MUCH better characterisation than Budiansky's...
> Budiansky's just shouted a lot and killed his own men by getting them to
> run across a defective space bridge. Your fairly typical big, stupid
> unimaginative evil leader type. Dullsville. All he needs is the top hat
> and the twirly mustache to make a great pantomime villain...

Aw. I always liked Budiansky's better. He had such great lines. Like
"Mercy is not despensed here, FOOL, only DEATH!"

Heck yeah.

--David


Brian Kilby

unread,
Jun 5, 2001, 12:12:08 AM6/5/01
to

"Walkerton" <wii...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:sPXS6.2648$yW2....@ord-read.news.verio.net...

<Snip stuff I agree with.>

Budiansky's first twenty or so issues (plus the issues in the later twenties
and early thirties starring Blaster) do more for the Transformers than
Furman ever did or ever will.

Sure, the bulk of Budiansky's stuff is bad. But it's fun. Ratbat is my
favorite comic character. He and Blaster. There. I admit it.

Brian Kilby,
who'll trade issue #15 for issue #75 any day. Fun is better than shallow.


Zobovor

unread,
Jun 5, 2001, 12:32:28 AM6/5/01
to
Sky, Unicron's Advocate wrote:

>"Walkerton" wrote:
>
>> Budiansky's strongpoint was always characterization, obviously
>

>How is this obvious? With the exception of the Transformers Universe,
>nothing Budiansi wrote came close to Furman's characterisation or
>(obviously) Furman's epic plots.

Which is pretty sad, considering that Budiansky supposedly *created* the
personalities for most of the original characters. You'd think that he'd have
been able to get into their heads far more easily than anyone else.

Granted, Budiansky did some good things with Ratchet and Blaster, but by and
large his portrayal of the majority of the characters was practically
non-existent. I look at stories like Budiansky's #40, the introduction of the
Pretenders in which the most significant thing the new characters have to
contribute is what kind of gun they carry, and then I look at the Matrix Quest
stories, which are still every bit as much one-shot "toy commercials" but still
manage to create interesting and vivid portrayals for characters like
Longtooth, Dogfight, and Ruckus.

If anything, Budiansky's talent was "idea stories." I like the concepts of
"Optimus Prime fights Megatron in a computer simulation" or "Transformers are
infected with microbes that eat metal" or "Skullgrin stars in a monster movie."
It was the actual execution of these ideas that was pretty drab.

Zobovor

unread,
Jun 5, 2001, 12:42:53 AM6/5/01
to
M Sipher wrote:

>> Despite Romita's designs' utter homogenousity (is that a word? i'm
>> not even trying) and simplicity, they still weren't designed very well for
>> animation.
>
>No, they weren't. They were designed for standing stock-still in that
>TFU pose.

Actually, they were designed for animation. That's why there were front-view,
side-view, and rear-view shots of the characters as well as multiple head shots
and other things like underside-of-the-vehicle shots, details of their
vehicle-mode dashboards, and step-by-step transformation sequences. Obviously
there was no reason for the TFU profiles to showcase all that (although they
did sneak in Jazz's cartoon-based Cybertronic mode, and included a rear view of
Prime for some daft reason.)

>Even as a kid, I looked at them and went "How do they BEND?!"

The same way similarly-designed toys do, I should think...

Daniel Suh

unread,
Jun 5, 2001, 1:17:05 AM6/5/01
to
"Brian Kilby" <kilb...@abts.net> wrote in message

> Budiansky's first twenty or so issues (plus the issues in the later
twenties
> and early thirties starring Blaster) do more for the Transformers than
> Furman ever did or ever will.

Don't know about that. Bud did great for the first ten or twelve issues, but
then it's as if he started taking random ideas that popped into his head at
4AM in the morning and writing them into his stories. The Mechanic for
example. Here you've got some tubby would-be crime lord with a stupid
gimmick-and we're supposed to believe he can outwit the Autobots? I think
that Bud realised soon after what a dud he created, which explains why the
Mechanic vanishes after only two appearances.

And again, let's not forget what I personally consider the worst/stupidest
examples of Bud's bad work: Donny Finkleberg, Circuit Breaker, and Prime
committing suicide over a video game. Hope he never tries his hand at Metal
Gear Solid.:b

Now Simon Furman OTOH. His issues tended to have a great deal more substance
to them, and except for Nucleon, he didn't introduce any more new lame
characters/elements into the story. And let's not forget the kick-ass G2
comic. Manny Galan's weird neck fixation aside, I absolutely loved that
series. Just wish it had gone on longer.

> Sure, the bulk of Budiansky's stuff is bad. But it's fun. Ratbat is my
> favorite comic character. He and Blaster. There. I admit it.

Blaster is cool, I grant you that. But Ratbat? How in the heck did a
cassette--A CASSETTE--rise to become Decepticon leader? And, why in the name
of Ned did the other 'Cons obey him? Come on, Starscream should've/could've
blasted Batty into scrap at any point in time.

> Brian Kilby,
> who'll trade issue #15 for issue #75 any day. Fun is better than shallow.

Shallow? Issue #75? Are you joking??

Suspsy, who, frankly, thinks Scorponok's death ranks alongside Dinobot's.

"I'll rip you to pieces with my bare claws, tear your circuits out with my
teeth and spit your drodes back at you! Die Unicron--DIE!" -Scorponok


Darwinian Road Kill

unread,
Jun 5, 2001, 1:55:40 AM6/5/01
to
Pyre[Rock] (the...@rica.net) wrote:
: I think the reason he does this is that in most cases the toys have more
: detail that the cartoon models, plus they're easier to get a hold of as
: models than the cartoon versions.

Out of curiosity, where *would* one get cartoon models? (Besides
ubiquitous screen captures, of course. I'm thinking the actual "Here's
what so-and-so looks like" -- I recall people claiming to have acquired
the model sheets for some characters, such as Laserbeak.)

Ryan :>
(Personally, I prefer the Romita models, but I still appreciate Sipher's
takes, even if that ain't the Ratchet *I* know...)
--
"People who like penguins are nice people" -- Eric Bennett
(Fact: If my .sig gets over 10 lines, you can hit me)
"I have 4 gorillas, and i think you can kill them at botcon." -- Trypticon X
My half-baked site: www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Garden/8720
TF code: G++ AD/A OP/Q P212 ICQ:43171844

Sky, Unicron's Advocate

unread,
Jun 5, 2001, 2:33:05 AM6/5/01
to
I wrote:

> I can't think of a Transformer who received more characterisation at the
> hands of Budianski than at Furman's.

Walkertron wrote:

> Hrm.
> Ratchet (Furman merely expanded on him)
> Shockwave

I said *more* characterisation. Although you could easily say what you said
about Ratchet about any of these characters, the sheer bulk of Shockwave
stories written by Furman at least equal (and arguably surpass) Budiansky's:

- Shockwave's plots to dispose of Megatron before Budiansky's actually did.
- Shockwave's future self up to and including his assassination by Death's
Head.
- The lead up to "Time Wars", where Shockwave can't cope with the illogical
nature of time travel and has a nervous breakdown.
- His general obsession with Megatron. Speaking of whom...

> Megatron

Throughout the years when Budiansky's Megatron was dead, Furman had the
Straxtus Megatron running about everywhere.

> Straxus

See above. Also covered by Senex Prime.

> Blaster

Yes. Congratulations.

> Skids

See TFUK #219-222, completely devoted to Skids, possibly equalising the
Furman/Budiansky Skids ratio.

So Budiansky isn't Satan. Great!

He's certainly not Primus either:)

Zobovor

unread,
Jun 5, 2001, 3:08:25 AM6/5/01
to
Darwinian Road Kill wrote:

>Out of curiosity, where *would* one get cartoon models? (Besides
>ubiquitous screen captures, of course. I'm thinking the actual "Here's
>what so-and-so looks like" -- I recall people claiming to have acquired
>the model sheets for some characters, such as Laserbeak.)

As I've said, Transformers Universe has some servicable models that are
usually, but not always, in synch with the cartoon designs. At the very least,
you can use them to get the proportions right even if some of the details are
off. Also, WhizBang! had some approval sheets on eBay last year. The image
quality was sufficiently high that I was able to clean up several of them for
use in my cartoon encyclopedia (check Flywheels' entry, for example). Finally,
I believe most of the first-season models were printed in the booklets that
came with the Japanese G1 laser disc sets a few years ago. I think Rockman's
site has them archived somewhere.

Of course, even without these resources, there's no reason why an artist who
strives for accuracy can't just drawn up his own character models by
researching the cartoon series.

>Ryan :>
>(Personally, I prefer the Romita models, but I still appreciate Sipher's
>takes, even if that ain't the Ratchet *I* know...)

And that's my only real problem with artists deliberately substituting elements
of the character design in an attempt to legitimately portray the cartoon or
comics characters. Sipher's intentionally setting out to draw the toys, which
makes perfect sense. If I'm setting out to draw Darkwing Duck, who is a
cartoon character, I'm not about to use the Playmates action figure or that
little Frosted Flakes cereal premium for reference, though. With Transformers
it's slightly different since most of the cartoon/comics models *are*
interpretations of the toys, but that doesn't mean that they're all
interchangeable.

Zobovor

unread,
Jun 5, 2001, 4:25:23 AM6/5/01
to
M Sipher wrote:

>1) A lot of the official models suck. Yeah, that's a purely subjective
>point, but still. To this day I cannot get over how crappy and boring
>Ratchet & Ironhides' show-models are.

There are some toys that I like better than the official models, but not many
(Slugslinger comes to mind--beautiful toy that already looks very cartoon-like,
but his appaearance in "Rebirth" is sorely lacking). By and large, most of the
Transformers toys are badly misproportioned in order to accommodate the
transformations. I don't care that there's basically no way that the cartoon
Megatron could actualy fold up into a gun in real life--the point is that he
actually looks like a humanoid robot.

>2) The reason those models exist is so that the characters will remain
>as consistant as possible from scene to scene in the CARTOONS,
>since many many people will work on a single episode, and in some
>case, among many different animation houses.

Yes, that's the reasoning behind it, but the end result is that a cartoon
Transformer's look is very consistent from episode to episode, even if that
appearance differs from the toys. The same applies to characters who never got
toy equivalents like Alpha Trion or Emirate Xaaron. If you don't draw Xaaron
with those weird thingies connecting his mouth together, then you're not
drawing him accurately. Every comics artist consistently included them, even
if their art style varied from issue to issue.

>Nowhere else in even the official TF universe do you really see a strict
>adherance to a set model. Not in the Marvel comics

That's simply not true. The drawings you saw in the TFU profiles were the
basis for every single character who appeared (with the exception of Blaster,
whose comics design was, I believe, meant to represent a Cybertronian design,
but the artists forgot to change it over after the character got to Earth).
Even the Dwayne Turner issue, which was complete crap, still managed to get the
Decepticon Micromasters right. Starscream actually *would* have been right if
Turner hadn't left off so much line detail that it looked like Screamer's wings
were all one piece or had his legs welded together.

As for Yaniger's redesigns, well, the G2 comic really is an anomaly, but not
including Megatron for obvious reasons, only four characters had their existing
designs totally thrown out the window--Prime, Grimlock, Sideswipe, Starscream.
Other than their guns, which Yaniger could never be bothered to draw correctly,
all his other characters were model-accurate. Sure, he took liberties with
their appearance to an extent, like having wiring visible in the gap in Blades'
chest, but every comic artist does that sort of thing. With Wildman, it was
giving them human-like faces and hands. With Delbo, it was deciding that
Powermaster Optimus Prime had no nose. You'll note that Geoff Senior almost
completely disregarded Yaniger's new designs for the G2 comic, though, and
other than some wheels mounted on Sideswipe's shoulders and embedded in Prime's
hips, drew the characters exactly as he always had.

>3) Everyone using the same model for art, ESPECIALLY fan-art, would
>be so damn BORING it's not funny.

>It's good to be ABLE to draw totally on-model, but any artist, I feel,
>should strive to make their OWN mark and look rather than diligently
>ape something that already exists.

>I love Yaniger's TFs. They stray from the conventional models
>HEAVILY. Prime's got toy-wheels and hubs in his arms. Grimlock...
>Grimlock. Wow. That's the single-best dino-mode Grimlock ever made.

>No, I'm all for replies. It's nice to know SOMEONE'S looking at the
>damn things.

Good. :)

>What I didn't like, though, was quite specifically the use of the word
>"cheatsy", which for all the world I can't see as anything BUT negative,
>and your reasoning behind this remark utterly baffles me.

Well, I didn't realize you'd take offense over it. I apologize, because that's
not where I was going with that at all.

>Because the coloring on the TF books have typically stunk on ice.
>
>M "Now, I Admit My Mid-80's Comic Knowledge Is Minimal, But They
>HAD To Be Doing Better Jobs On Other Books..." Sipher

Hell, they did a better job on the one-shot Kool-Aid comic. Oh yeah.

Hellopike

unread,
Jun 5, 2001, 6:44:56 AM6/5/01
to

Sipher, can you point those interested in the Chronicles to a place we might
buy it? I'm dying to see this art now... =)

Pike

M Sipher <msi...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:9fhdnn$736$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...

SILVERBOLT - Mr. Vertigo Himself

unread,
Jun 5, 2001, 7:11:53 AM6/5/01
to
Walkerton <wii...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> > Me, I find it more challenging to work within similar confines that the
> > cartoon animators did, and the comics artists to a lesser extent, and
> > try to remain as faithful as possible to the official depictions of the
> > characters. Obviously it's not a prerequisite, but I'm far more impressed
> > when others do the same than when they just make stuff up out of
> > the blue and pass it off as an existing character.
>

> Sorry, Zob, but I think this is the saddest thing I've ever read.

I guess I can just take my attempting-to-be-cartoon-accurate icons that
I've worked on, off and on, for upwards of 5 years and dump 'em in the
recycle bin, eh? :)
--
Rikard Bakke
silve...@os.enitel.no

The Cybertron Chronicle
http://members.nbci.com/cybertronchronicle/

Transformers Fan Code
G++ FR FW+ #74 D+ AA+ N++ W++ B++ OQP BC98++ BC99++ BC2000++ BC2001++ CN+++ OM+


Brian Kilby

unread,
Jun 5, 2001, 7:18:23 AM6/5/01
to

> > Brian Kilby,
> > who'll trade issue #15 for issue #75 any day. Fun is better than
shallow.
>
> Shallow? Issue #75? Are you joking??
>

It's one big stupid fight. *That's* supposed to be depth?

Had Furman a better grasp for the medium, it could've been a good read, but
it wasn't. Furman is a mediocre writer granted godhood (in this fandom only,
not in the fandom of his occupation--comics) because he treated the
Transformers seriously. End of story.

> Suspsy, who, frankly, thinks Scorponok's death ranks alongside Dinobot's.

Scorponok/Zarak got that one memorable line in, but the rest was weak.

I'm not that crazy about Dinobot's death either. /:)

Deaths are done FAR too often in the Transformers mythos. These two do rank
at the top, but that's because the rest are so damned bad.


Brian Kilby,
Crazy Grimlock with the crown ruled.


Steve-o Stonebraker

unread,
Jun 5, 2001, 10:02:07 AM6/5/01
to
On Tue, 05 Jun 2001 05:17:05 GMT, Daniel Suh wrote:
> Now Simon Furman OTOH. His issues tended to have a great deal more substance
> to them, and except for Nucleon, he didn't introduce any more new lame
> characters/elements into the story.

I agree with some of what you've said, but this isn't a valid point.
Furman didn't introduce many new and lame elements because he wasn't
forced to by Hasbro, unlike BobBud. By the time Furman took over the US
comic writing, Hasbro had largely lost interest in the series, and didn't
exert as much control over what happened in it. There's a great interview
with Larry Hama on yojoe.com about his experiences writing the GI Joe
comic which gives some insight into the sorts of pressures Budiansky would
have been working under.

--Steve-o

Hydra & Buster's Masterforce/Victory subtitling project needs donations!
*** http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/hantaakiraa/pt/fansub.html ***
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Stonebraker | Transformers FAQ Keeper | Astrophysicist
srst...@bu.edu | http://astro.bu.edu/~srstoneb/ | AOL IM: srstoneb

Walkerton

unread,
Jun 5, 2001, 11:11:03 AM6/5/01
to
> I'm not referring to artists mimicking someone else's artistic style. I'm
> talking about the very basic concept of staying true to a character's
design.

You use the phrase "true to a character's design." Which design? The toy?
The box art? The Romita model? Geoff Senior? The kid down the block?

> When McFarlane worked on the Spider-Man book, he liked to piss off the
powers
> that be by putting too much black in Spidey's costume or making the eyes
too
> large or drawing what he referred to as "spaghetti-webbing." That's about
as
> radical an interpretation of the character as we're ever likely to see on
an
> official level, but the character was still fundamentally the same--it's
not
> like McFarlane up and decided that Spidey wore a cape or had a pair of
> spinnerets sticking out of his butt.

There's a huge fundamental difference. Spiderman's Amazing Fantasy #15
design
was not created by Marvel staff to emulate a toy they were selling. But
from the
very beginning, there were umpteen ways to draw each TF character and still
be correct. There is no single official "Transformers style." I know you
really think
the cartoon was the bees-knees, Zob, but there are other equally-correct
treatments
out there. :)

--David
www.itswalky.com


Walkerton

unread,
Jun 5, 2001, 11:14:37 AM6/5/01
to
> >No, they weren't. They were designed for standing stock-still in that
> >TFU pose.
>
> Actually, they were designed for animation. That's why there were
front-view,
> side-view, and rear-view shots of the characters as well as multiple head
shots
> and other things like underside-of-the-vehicle shots, details of their
> vehicle-mode dashboards, and step-by-step transformation sequences.

Not what Sipher was talking about. The TFU shots weren't given joints.
They
had no elbows, no working shoulders, no knees, no ankles. The TFUs were
drawn to stand in that exact pose, and not much thought was given in that
level of production to how the heck they look when they're *not* standing.

--David
www.itswalky.com


Walkerton

unread,
Jun 5, 2001, 11:16:54 AM6/5/01
to
> > > Me, I find it more challenging to work within similar confines that
the
> > > cartoon animators did, and the comics artists to a lesser extent, and
> > > try to remain as faithful as possible to the official depictions of
the
> > > characters. Obviously it's not a prerequisite, but I'm far more
impressed
> > > when others do the same than when they just make stuff up out of
> > > the blue and pass it off as an existing character.
> >
> > Sorry, Zob, but I think this is the saddest thing I've ever read.
>
> I guess I can just take my attempting-to-be-cartoon-accurate icons that
> I've worked on, off and on, for upwards of 5 years and dump 'em in the
> recycle bin, eh? :)

Certainly not, Rikard, if doing it in that style is what pleases you.

--David
www.itswalky.com


Walkerton

unread,
Jun 5, 2001, 11:26:37 AM6/5/01
to
> Yes, that's the reasoning behind it, but the end result is that a cartoon
> Transformer's look is very consistent from episode to episode, even if
that
> appearance differs from the toys. The same applies to characters who
never got
> toy equivalents like Alpha Trion or Emirate Xaaron. If you don't draw
Xaaron
> with those weird thingies connecting his mouth together, then you're not
> drawing him accurately. Every comics artist consistently included them,
even
> if their art style varied from issue to issue.

Of course, because there's no other official source to get "What Xaaron
looks
like." Every other single character had toys, box art, coloring book art,
Find
Your Fate art, and tons of other sources to gleam from.

To make an analogy:
http://www.itswalky.com/zobhug.gif

You drew Joyce and the Head Alien in a completely different style than
I draw them. As far as I know, the way I draw the Joyce and the Head Alien
is the only "real" way to draw these characters. But you took a different
approach.

....yet these are still Joyce and the Head Alien. I can (and do) easily
accept
that these are my characters, but just another artist's interpretation.
They
aren't *wrong* just because they don't look like mine. In fact, they're
much much more interesting than if you had decided to take that route.

So, why is your approach to Transformers different? :)

--David
www.itswalky.com


Walkerton

unread,
Jun 5, 2001, 11:36:47 AM6/5/01
to
> > Hrm.
> > Ratchet (Furman merely expanded on him)
> > Shockwave
>
> I said *more* characterisation. Although you could easily say what you
said
> about Ratchet about any of these characters, the sheer bulk of Shockwave
> stories written by Furman at least equal (and arguably surpass)
Budiansky's:

Well, yes, if there's a whole bunch of appearances of a character, then they
automatically get more characterization. Nightscream was in nearly 20
episodes,
but that doesn't mean he got more characterization than Agenda's Ravage.

Likewise, Agenda Ravage was only in 3 episodes, but before that he
was in several cartoon episodes and received very very little
characterization.

(And yes, I have read his UK appearances. I'm making an analogy.)

> - Shockwave's plots to dispose of Megatron before Budiansky's actually
did.
> - Shockwave's future self up to and including his assassination by Death's
> Head.
> - The lead up to "Time Wars", where Shockwave can't cope with the
illogical
> nature of time travel and has a nervous breakdown.
> - His general obsession with Megatron. Speaking of whom...

I found Shockwave's behaviors in Furman's UK work to be largely consistent
with Bob Budiansky's portrayal, except for the "Time Wars" instance you
mentioned. Except for where Shockwave goes nutso during Time Wars,
nothing substancially new was really added to the character.

> > Megatron
> Throughout the years when Budiansky's Megatron was dead, Furman had the
> Straxtus Megatron running about everywhere.

I'm quite aware of that. Doesn't make it automatically good
characterization.

> > Skids
>
> See TFUK #219-222, completely devoted to Skids, possibly equalising the
> Furman/Budiansky Skids ratio.

Nonono. You see, I'm not talking about how much each writer wrote about
the characters. That isn't characterization. You can write dialogue for a
character
until you're blue in the face, but that doesn't make it characterization, or
even
GOOD characterization.

> He's certainly not Primus either:)

Primus created the Transformers.
Budiansky created the Transformers.
Therefore, Budiansky = Primus. :)

--David


Monzo

unread,
Jun 5, 2001, 12:04:02 PM6/5/01
to
M Sipher wrote:
> M "CHRONICLES Is Simply THE Answer To ANY Argument Over Sticking To A Single
> Model. Period. Its Very Existance Is A Testament To Doing Something Cool And
> Different" Sipher

I picked up this book at a previous Botcon (I think from Fumihiko's
table), and it IS one real sweet piece of work. Has Ichikawa ever done
a
sequel book to this, though? It'd be nice to see where the story was
headed, and his character choices were certainly /interesting/, if
nothing else (hey, it's Roadblock the pretender! The Predators! Big
Daddy!).

Given what happened to Smokescreen, I wonder if Roadblock was being set
up
to become the Autoroller character. Hm.

Monzo, de-lurking again.

Monzo

unread,
Jun 5, 2001, 12:43:37 PM6/5/01
to
M Sipher wrote:
> M "I Take Art Theft Seriously. If I Could, I'd Take It Seriously With A
> Large Axe" Sipher

I've actually posed this question once before, I think, but: what
exactly crosses the line into "theft" where art is concerned? I
realize Ichikawa is a fan-artist and scanning in full copies of
his stuff would rate _very_ high on the Scum-O-Meter, but what
about, say, a site that uses screengrabs from official videos
or scans from the US or UK comic books? On one of the
earliest versions of my now-defunct site, I housed scans
of the UK Annual story And There Shall Come ... A Leader! done
by Tim Roll-Pickering, which is a fair-to-middling on any
given "rarity" list, being that UK annuals are harder to come by
for Americans fans. Not IMPOSSIBLE, mind. I don't house the scans
anymore, nor do I intend to have /any/ "full story" comic scans
on my in-progress site revamp, but where do things like that fit
on the Conscience Meter? Official things?

OT: Oooh! Blademan mugshot! Most spikey. I always thought he
looked like he was wearing a leather jacket. Too bad his
weapon appears to be a vacuum cleaner attachment. Whee.

The MegaMan toon's changed timeslots now, come to think.
Twice as much Mega per week, though it appears to be the
same group of Fox Family-edited episodes that they used to
play on Sunday.

"Thrust IS Pharaohman IN: MegaMan: The Animated Series!"
... well, okay, he's Dr. Light, too, but Light doesn't
have that ominousness to him.

Monzo, rambling.

Hooks

unread,
Jun 5, 2001, 12:52:33 PM6/5/01
to

Brian Kilby <kilb...@abts.net> wrote in message
news:3e3T6.226325$sP6.12...@news3.aus1.giganews.com...

>
> > > Brian Kilby,
> > > who'll trade issue #15 for issue #75 any day. Fun is better than
> shallow.
> >
> > Shallow? Issue #75? Are you joking??
> >
>
> It's one big stupid fight. *That's* supposed to be depth?

If it wasn't for Prime walking around asking themselves questions, or the
humans walking around asking themselves questions, or Scorponok dying after
walking around asking themselves questions, #75 would have been #50 with
better art and slightly better dialogue.

As I said before, Furman wrote good characters. A shame 85% of them were
the same.

> Had Furman a better grasp for the medium, it could've been a good read,
but
> it wasn't. Furman is a mediocre writer granted godhood (in this fandom
only,
> not in the fandom of his occupation--comics) because he treated the
> Transformers seriously. End of story.

In the comics community, Simon Furman is known as "who?" And that's
basically it, really. Most people don't know or care who Furman is. The
only reason he's a god in Transformers fiction is because he wrote stories
that didn't introduce toys, and treated the medium more seriously than other
writers had.

It was treated as science-fiction rather than toy-fiction.

I'm not saying he's a bad writer. I'm saying that outside of Transformers
and Death's Head, no one knows or cares about him. I'm also saying that
Furman seems to be good at writing Transformers, but when writing other
characters, he finds that he can't shoehorn pre-established characters into
his three or four character-types. And compared to most of the good writers
in comicdom, he just wouldn't cut it.

It's like comparing... hrm. Like comparing Wildman to Ichikawa. Decent in
the work he does, and by no means _bad_, but no where near the top of the
crust.

(X)


Douglas W. Dlin

unread,
Jun 5, 2001, 2:04:56 PM6/5/01
to
[cc'd to email for purposes of review and commentary]

On May 5, 2001, Hellopike wrote:
>
> Sipher, can you point those interested in the Chronicles to a place we
> might buy it? I'm dying to see this art now... =)
>

A link to my ad at bigbot.com was already posted in this thread, but
here's the current text of it. The only modification (which I'll have
to forward to Renaud to put on his site) is that I now accept Paypal payments.

Doug Dlin
ap...@hotmail.com
*** UPDATE--01-15-01: Due to postage rate increases, ***
*** the domestic postpaid cost for TF: CHRONICLES has ***
***gone up to $9.60, for a set of one each, to $13.25.***

***Unless specified in this ad, you may***
***assume both books are still in stock***
*** and no new ones are in production. ***

I currently have for sale English-language editions of two Japanese TF
dojinshi (fanzines), both advertised on www.bigbot.com: EPOCH OF THE
CYBERTRON #0-0 (also advertised on Chris Meadows' web site) and
TRANSFORMERS CHRONICLES BOOK 1.

EPOCH OF THE CYBERTRON #0-0
by Makoto Ito (STARS 104A)
32 pp., b&w with color cover, saddle-stitched
$3.95 postpaid within the U.S.
EPOCH #0-0 contains the story "Universe of Primacron," the prologue
episode in an exploration of the TFs' prehistory. In the G1-series
third-season episode "Call of the Primitives," we were introduced to the
character Primacron, who was revealed to have been the creator of
Unicron. But what were Primacron's origins? How did he get to be so
powerful? And what were his other connections to the Transformers?

Originally printed in Antarctic Press's DOJINSHI #2, the story's current
version is a higher quality printing, with new dialogue and a
"bilingual" format. Along with the story, there are various author's
comments, a few design illos, original TFU-style profiles and a special
Reader Survey. **Be sure to fill this out and send it in to to the
author when you get your copy! He really wants to hear back from
non-Japanese Transfans!**

TRANSFORMERS CHRONICLES BOOK 1
by Hirofumi Ichikawa
52 pp., b&w with color cover, perfect-bound
$9.60 postpaid within the U.S.
TFC BOOK 1 is Mr. Ichikawa's take on the years between G1 and G2, taking
some material from the original TV series, some from the G1 comic. A
mysterious luminous phenomenon has occurred on Cybertron. While the
Autobots explore it, on Earth, the Decepticons have gained rule over a
portion of the planet, and human society has to deal with the
repercussions. A delegation of scientists is sent to Cybertron as a
diplomatic mission, but while they are present, the phenomenon becomes
more than a light show, disrupting systems planetwide!

There's also a brief glossary of terms and characters to bring everyone
up to speed. Plot assistance comes from Hiroshi Koya, with
lettering/production by well-known Japanese Transfan/dealer Fumihiko
Akiyama. The art in this is truly astounding, more on-model to the toys
than you would have thought possible. The story's pretty good, too. :-)

Translation for both 'zines done by yours truly.

Unfortunately, due to the low print runs of both dojinshi, I can't
really offer much in the way of package discounts. (The money spent to
print them is the authors', not mine, so I've not much leeway here.) A
set of one copy of each can be made available for $13.25, but that's
about it.

** NEW POSTAGE DUE TO RATE INCREASES **
** Canadian orders, please add $0.50/book **
** Mexican orders, please add $0.80/book **
**All other non-U.S. orders, please add $1.50/book**

Otherwise, the fanzines are available individually for the prices listed
above, which include postage. Checks or money orders (no cash or credit
cards, sorry) should be made payable to Doug Dlin, and sent to me care
of the following address:
7272 Wurzbach, Suite 204
San Antonio, TX 78240
USA

Doug Dlin
ap...@hotmail.com

Douglas W. Dlin

unread,
Jun 5, 2001, 2:06:46 PM6/5/01
to
On Jun. 5, 2001, Monzo wrote:
>
> M Sipher wrote:
>> M "CHRONICLES Is Simply THE Answer To ANY Argument Over Sticking To A
>> Single Model. Period. Its Very Existance Is A Testament To Doing
>> Something Cool And Different" Sipher
>
> I picked up this book at a previous Botcon (I think from Fumihiko's
> table), and it IS one real sweet piece of work. Has Ichikawa ever done
> a sequel book to this, though?

Afraid not. With all his other work (BW Neo box art, new Microman
figure designs, BW "Metal Monument" statue design, Web Diver toy design,
and more...), he simply hasn't had the time.

Doug Dlin
ap...@hotmail.com

Joona I Palaste

unread,
Jun 5, 2001, 2:47:39 PM6/5/01
to
Brian Kilby <kilb...@abts.net> scribbled the following:

>> > Brian Kilby,
>> > who'll trade issue #15 for issue #75 any day. Fun is better than
> shallow.
>>
>> Shallow? Issue #75? Are you joking??
>>

> It's one big stupid fight. *That's* supposed to be depth?

I have to agree here. The plot of #75 is just Transformers fighting in
despair against Unicron, and then the Matrix comes to save the day. It's
very linear and one-dimensional.
The reasons fans think it's cool are (1) it has Unicron in it, and (2)
it was drawn by Geoff Senior.

--
/-- Joona Palaste (pal...@cc.helsinki.fi) ---------------------------\
| Kingpriest of "The Flying Lemon Tree" G++ FR FW+ M- #108 D+ ADA N+++|
| http://www.helsinki.fi/~palaste W++ B OP+ |
\----------------------------------------- Finland rules! ------------/

"It's time, it's time, it's time to dump the slime!"
- Dr. Dante

Zobovor

unread,
Jun 5, 2001, 3:28:43 PM6/5/01
to
Walkerton wrote:

>Not what Sipher was talking about. The TFU shots weren't given joints.
>They had no elbows, no working shoulders, no knees, no ankles. The
>TFUs were drawn to stand in that exact pose, and not much thought
>was given in that level of production to how the heck they look when
>they're *not* standing.

I'll grant you that a lot of Transformers don't have functional ankle joints,
but that hardly makes them any different than your average combat boot-wearing
G.I. Joe.

You're wrong about the characters not having other joints, though. If you
check out the rear-view shot of Optimus Prime from his TFU profile, for
example, you can see exactly where his knees bend (there is a gap in his
lower-leg armor to accommodate the upper leg, just like an Action Master toy)
and where his elbow joints are. The model sheets even point to exactly where
the knee joints are in the event it's not glaringly obvious from the
character's design (like Trailbreaker's knees). I can't think of a single
character who does not have arms or legs with obvious separations in the armor
to allow for a moving joint (except for the Pretenders, whose outer shells are
probably made of flexible material).

There are a few characters who do not have conventional designs, like Blitzwing
(whose shoulder armor inhibits his arms' range of motion) or Hoist and Drag
Strip (who apparently do not have swiveling waists). There's still also some
small degree of ambiguity, such as animators not being able to decide whether
Ramjet's wings are attached to his upper legs or lower legs, but for the most
part I think their designs are pretty self-evident.

Recharge

unread,
Jun 5, 2001, 3:30:57 PM6/5/01
to
On 5 Jun 2001 18:47:39 GMT, Joona I Palaste attempted to make noise like the
humanoids and grunted:

>I have to agree here. The plot of #75 is just Transformers fighting in
>despair against Unicron, and then the Matrix comes to save the day. It's
>very linear and one-dimensional.
>The reasons fans think it's cool are (1) it has Unicron in it, and (2)
>it was drawn by Geoff Senior.

Oh, it couldn't have ANYTHING to do with being the culmination of a two year
storyline, final conflicts and decisions being made, deaths of several well
fleshed out characters, ect. ect?

Recharge, fucking christ, ever hear of RESOLUTION? It's not #75 by ITSELF that
makes it special, it's what came BEFORE it...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A heavy dose of reality...with a shot of piss and vinegar
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
recha...@hotmail.com

Darwinian Road Kill

unread,
Jun 5, 2001, 3:35:16 PM6/5/01
to

On Tue, 5 Jun 2001, Brian Kilby wrote:

> > Shallow? Issue #75? Are you joking??
> It's one big stupid fight. *That's* supposed to be depth?

Well... it's the big stupid fight that the Transformers were built for. It
is the axis on which the Universe shall turn. It is the great big bloody
coming of age for a race. If the survive of course.

My point is that the Unicron War as seen in TF:TM was, well, an element
thrown in for its own sake. Furman, however, actually bothered to explain
*why* the Matrix could hurt Unicron, and gave the Monster Planet a better
secret than "It transforms too!"

#75 on it's own is a big fight -- as part of a storyline (comics being a
medium based on the multi-part arc), it is *The* Big Fight.

What came after would have been much more interesting had Marvel not
dropped the axe, though. When you've fulfilled your species' destiny, what
do you do then?

> Had Furman a better grasp for the medium, it could've been a good read, but
> it wasn't. Furman is a mediocre writer granted godhood (in this fandom only,
> not in the fandom of his occupation--comics) because he treated the
> Transformers seriously. End of story.

I don't grant godhood to any of the writers, not even Forward and
DiTillio. (wait for astonished gasps) But I think that, for the Legacy of
Unicron and Primus, and for making G2 more than a rehash of old stories,
Furman deserves *some* accolade at least. If only because he took it
seriously. Larry Hama, anyone?

Ryan :>

Monzo

unread,
Jun 5, 2001, 3:58:51 PM6/5/01
to

... there was Beast Wars Neo box art? (looks around for his Break box)
I could have sworn Neo just used CGI models of the chars, like BWIInd
did. Or do you mean that he worked on the CGI models?

What's the BW "Metal Monument" statue? I don't think I've heard of this.

Ramblethought: Hm. I wonder - if the new GIJoe miniseries from Image is
successful, if they'll try to do a Transformer one. Transformers
drawn by Image artists. That's... well. An interesting prospect,
if nothing. Though the cover to Image GIJoe #1 that's been
floating around by J. Scott Campbell is eeeeh. Legit, but eeeeh.

Monzo, huzzah.

Joona I Palaste

unread,
Jun 5, 2001, 3:55:01 PM6/5/01
to
Recharge <nos...@newsranger.com> scribbled the following:

> On 5 Jun 2001 18:47:39 GMT, Joona I Palaste attempted to make noise like the
> humanoids and grunted:
>>I have to agree here. The plot of #75 is just Transformers fighting in
>>despair against Unicron, and then the Matrix comes to save the day. It's
>>very linear and one-dimensional.
>>The reasons fans think it's cool are (1) it has Unicron in it, and (2)
>>it was drawn by Geoff Senior.

> Oh, it couldn't have ANYTHING to do with being the culmination of a two year
> storyline, final conflicts and decisions being made, deaths of several well
> fleshed out characters, ect. ect?

> Recharge, fucking christ, ever hear of RESOLUTION? It's not #75 by ITSELF that
> makes it special, it's what came BEFORE it...

Well, I have to agree if you put it that way. #75 by itself is
virtually devoid of depth... the whole collection of issues starting
from and including #61 up to and including #75 has plenty of depth,
even in #75.
I still say #75 is just one big fight. But as others have said, it's
the big fight the Transformers were built for, so that is reason enough
to show it.

PS. "Fucking Christ"... that's quite amusing. =)

--
/-- Joona Palaste (pal...@cc.helsinki.fi) ---------------------------\
| Kingpriest of "The Flying Lemon Tree" G++ FR FW+ M- #108 D+ ADA N+++|
| http://www.helsinki.fi/~palaste W++ B OP+ |
\----------------------------------------- Finland rules! ------------/

"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside a dog, it's too dark
to read anyway."
- Groucho Marx

Zobovor

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Jun 5, 2001, 4:19:01 PM6/5/01
to
Walkerton wrote:

>> I'm not referring to artists mimicking someone else's artistic style. >>
I'm talking about the very basic concept of staying true to a
>> character's design.
>
>You use the phrase "true to a character's design." Which design? The
>toy? The box art? The Romita model? Geoff Senior? The kid down
>the block?

Whichever you prefer. (Well, except for a "Geoff Senior" version of a
character, which *would* actually be an attempt to emulate one artist's
interpretation of a character. Even Senior's stylized robots were still
faithful to the official Marvel designs.)

Look at it this way: There is only one way to draw an American flag. The
contemporary version always has 50 stars and 13 stripes. This never changes,
and if you deviate from this design, it's simply not an American flag. It
might still be recognizable and sort-of look like one, but it's not accurate.

Well, that's not entirely unlike how I feel about Transformer designs. If
you're drawing the cartoon version of Optimus Prime but you put an Autobot
symbol on each of his shoulders, that's wrong. If you're drawing the toy
version of him but you give him blue eyes, that's wrong, too. If you're
drawing an abstract interpretation that combines elements from both, then
there's no right or wrong about it.

>But from the very beginning, there were umpteen ways to draw each TF
>character and still be correct. There is no single official "Transformers
>style." I know you really think the cartoon was the bees-knees, Zob,
>but there are other equally-correct treatments out there. :)

And I've never purported the idea that the cartoon model, for example, was the
only way to properly draw a Transformer. The cartoon model is, however, the
only way to properly draw the CARTOON CHARACTER.

Frankly, I fail to understand why so many people here are shunning the ability
to draw a character consistently or accurately. There's nothing at all wrong
with coming up with an artistic, imaginative rendition of a toy or character or
whatever. I don't think too many people get jobs in the comics or animation
industry, though, by going, "Well, I know that my drawings don't look anything
like your official model of the character... but just look how much KEWLER my
version is!"

--
Zobovor

ZMFTS: Art for art's sake. For Pete's sake.
http://members.aol.com/zobovor/index.html

Recharge

unread,
Jun 5, 2001, 4:24:54 PM6/5/01
to
On 5 Jun 2001 19:55:01 GMT, Joona I Palaste attempted to make noise like the
humanoids and grunted:

>PS. "Fucking Christ"... that's quite amusing. =)

Hey, I try.

Recharge, if #75 came out of nowhere and started slaughtering everybody like an
angsty teenager's fanfic, then it'd most likely be a very reviled story, much
like the shuttle massacre...

Brian Kilby

unread,
Jun 5, 2001, 4:58:44 PM6/5/01
to
Recharge wrote basically what Ryan did:

> Oh, it couldn't have ANYTHING to do with being the culmination of a two
year
> storyline, final conflicts and decisions being made, deaths of several
well
> fleshed out characters, ect. ect?
>
> Recharge, fucking christ, ever hear of RESOLUTION? It's not #75 by ITSELF
that
> makes it special, it's what came BEFORE it...

Yeah, but I was specifically referring to issue #75. On its own, it's a weak
issue as far as comics go. Very weak. Even with the whole
Primus/Matrix/Unicron/Bondage thing it's still a mediocre run. /:)

I have a hard time...no, it's *impossible* for me not to hold The
Transformers comic to the same standard as any comic I read. I read comics.
A LOT of comics, and I treat the TF books the same as I do Batgirl,
Watchmen, The Avengers or any other book.

I do the same thing with the cartoon as well. Difference is, The
Transformers cartoon was as good as almost any other show in the 80's.

As far as Furman treating the Transformers seriously, I do give him credit
for that. The difference between he and Larry Hama is I actually like Larry
Hama's work. 'Cept for his run on Batman, of course.

Brian Kilby,
who freely admits he doesn't like Busiek's Avengers either. But that's
beside the point....


Message has been deleted

ShadowWing

unread,
Jun 5, 2001, 5:14:40 PM6/5/01
to

Zobovor wrote
>Granted, Budiansky did some good things with Ratchet and Blaster, but by
>and large his portrayal of the majority of the characters was practically
>non-existent. I look at stories like Budiansky's #40, the introduction
>of the Pretenders in which the most significant thing the new characters
>have to contribute is what kind of gun they carry, and then I look at the
>Matrix Quest stories, which are still every bit as much one-shot "toy
>commercials" but still manage to create interesting and vivid portrayals
>for characters like Longtooth, Dogfight, and Ruckus.

How much characterzation did we get on Longtooth? He was a bit out of
it. To me, Matrix Quest and many of the Furman stories I've read so far read
more like Gundam Wing. It's all "we hate fighting, but we have no choice"
and Grimlock's little speach about genetics in #76. Budiansky gave us
characterization *within* the "idea stories", as you call them. What about
Skid's hatred of war and his desire to try to get out of it, Blaster's
regret about letting Scrounge die in the Smelting Pool. Maybe we didn't get
a full blown character story outside of #16 (which was written by Len
Kaminski), but if you look at the story, you get as much a view into a
character as you would in real life.

Besides, Matrix Quest was pretty much "idea stories" in themselves.
Let's put Transformers in an old west horror movie, The Maltese Falcon, and
Aliens-type pictures. The last chapter was the only one that doesn't come
off as a "film and theater styles" game. <Who's Line is it Anyway
reference.>

Outside of some rather obvious stretches (giant transforming robotic
aliens notwithstanding and not above what I've expected from Marvel over the
years), I can actually believe Budiansky's stories more than I do Furman's.
The interaction between Transformer and human makes more sense. I can see
Ratbat using humans via trickery (making it seem his island base is a
sovereign nation) or mind control (the "infamous" Wash & Roll); I can see
the Micromasters doing a better PR job by getting help from the reporter
they made friends with and crimefighting. (Yes, the wrestling was just
wierd). With Furman, we don't get the human/Transformer interaction or learn
about Cybertronian culture. Instead we get some pseudo-spiritualism about
powerful entities trapped in asteroids.

Budiansky was science fiction. Furman was science fantasy.
______________________________________________
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Douglas W. Dlin

unread,
Jun 5, 2001, 5:56:25 PM6/5/01
to
On Jun. 5, 2001, Monzo wrote:
>
> Douglas W. Dlin wrote:
>> On Jun. 5, 2001, Monzo wrote:
>>> I picked up this book at a previous Botcon (I think from Fumihiko's
>>> table), and it IS one real sweet piece of work. Has Ichikawa ever done
>>> a sequel book to this, though?
>> Afraid not. With all his other work (BW Neo box art, new Microman
>> figure designs, BW "Metal Monument" statue design, Web Diver toy design,
>> and more...), he simply hasn't had the time.
>
> ... there was Beast Wars Neo box art? (looks around for his Break box)
> I could have sworn Neo just used CGI models of the chars, like BWIInd
> did. Or do you mean that he worked on the CGI models?

I think it was Neo. Might've been BW2. One of those. And he might
indeed have worked on the models, or at least the package design.

> What's the BW "Metal Monument" statue? I don't think I've heard of this.

These were metal (pewter?) statues of the Ultra Primal and Megs in 'bot
mode, complete with movable "mutant head" masks. Not sure how big they
were, but I don't think they were quite as large as the actual toys.

Doug Dlin
ap...@hotmail.com

Walkerton

unread,
Jun 5, 2001, 6:10:12 PM6/5/01
to
> Look at it this way: There is only one way to draw an American flag. The
> contemporary version always has 50 stars and 13 stripes. This never
changes,
> and if you deviate from this design, it's simply not an American flag. It
> might still be recognizable and sort-of look like one, but it's not
accurate.

1) An American Flag is a real, existing object and symbol. Transformers do
not exist.

2) Pablo Picasso drew all sorts of humans and things that don't look exactly
as they look in real life. Half the thing about art is how you *interpret*
things.

> Well, that's not entirely unlike how I feel about Transformer designs. If
> you're drawing the cartoon version of Optimus Prime but you put an Autobot
> symbol on each of his shoulders, that's wrong. If you're drawing the toy
> version of him but you give him blue eyes, that's wrong, too. If you're
> drawing an abstract interpretation that combines elements from both, then
> there's no right or wrong about it.

But each of those representations is Optimus Prime. Cartoon Prime with
yellow eyes = Optimus Prime. Toy Prime without a hole in his back =
Optimus Prime. The reason this discussion exists is because you said
toy Nightbeat + comic book situation =/= Nightbeat. (Or perhaps an
"incorrect" Nightbeat.)

> And I've never purported the idea that the cartoon model, for example, was
the
> only way to properly draw a Transformer. The cartoon model is, however,
the
> only way to properly draw the CARTOON CHARACTER.

Unless you're an animator working for the show, I disagree.

> Frankly, I fail to understand why so many people here are shunning the
ability
> to draw a character consistently or accurately. There's nothing at all
wrong
> with coming up with an artistic, imaginative rendition of a toy or
character or
> whatever. I don't think too many people get jobs in the comics or
animation
> industry, though, by going, "Well, I know that my drawings don't look
anything
> like your official model of the character... but just look how much KEWLER
my
> version is!"

But you see, that's the difference. We're not *working* for Hasbro. We're
doing
artistic interpretations, even if they suck. If you're part of an animation
team working
to put out a product, then it's important to stick to the animation models.
But as
individuals, we can do whatever the heck we want. I can draw Prime with
wheels on
his legs and put him in cartoon continuity and say he's Optimus Prime from
the cartoon.

I think the huge difference between us, Zob, is that you think of the
cartoon series
as an actual camera placed in front of actual characters as actual things
happen. I think
of it as just a series of expressions of ideas.

To agree with Bob Forward and Larry DiTillio, I've come to think of the
Transformers
mythos as a group of similarly-themed stories, much like the King Arthur
legends.
There's always a Matrix and there's always a Unicron, and there's always
warring
robots fighting against each other. Each thread may have similarities or
differences,
but it's all the same big huge grey area. Hell, each individual
"continuity" doesn't
agree with itself half the time. Do TFs have gender? Were they created by
naturally-occuring pulleys and levers, by Quintessons, by Primus? Where do
TFs
go when they die? Where did the Constructicons come from? Why did
Starscream
have an Earth jet mode before he crashed on Earth? Are sparks fragile
or can they float around like Glenda, the Good Witch of the North? Is the
Matrix
a computer program, a green radioactive coconut, a sparkly holder with
handles,
an energy pattern? Why does my ass hurt? Did you see what Susan was
wearing
this morning? I thought I was about to die! And did Candi tell you what
she
said about Cameron? Like, wow! That is so totally ....

...

....sorry

I had a point, but I lost it..

--David
www.itswalky.com


ShadowWing

unread,
Jun 5, 2001, 5:44:17 PM6/5/01
to

Walkerton wrote
>Second, Bob Budiansky created Cool-Ass Grimlock That Isn't The STupid
>Grimlock On The Cartoon, used and characterized him first. Bob just got
>weird in his middle years, and I'm guessing tried to emulate the
>cartoon's Grimlock.

Or the movie, since for some stupid reason the Movie adaptation seemed
to be accepted into canon. (Somebody sent a letter in noting that Prime
couldn't be dead because he shows up in the movie adaptation, and the reply
wasn't "because the Movie adaptation doesn't take place in the regular comic
continuity", but "a lot can happen between now and 2005".)

>Bob created Kickass Bad Mofo Shockwave, and used him first.

Side note: why did Furman add in all this "hypothosis" and
"interogative" bits. He used to talk rather like evil Spock.

>Bob created the Ratchet we all know and love, and set him up for what
>Furman expanded on later.

I haven't gotten to 77-79 yet, but Furman actually didn't do such a bad
job with Ratchet.

And you forgot to mention that Budiansky--who CREATED the Creation
Matrix didn't mean for it to be a solid MoL-ish object. It was supposed to
be a life-giving encoding program. At least the TFU entry for Powermaster
Prime gave us a decent "retcon" for the two, but it still contradicts the
whole Buster-has-the-Matrix-in-his-brain and some of the rest of the
Matrix's usage *after* the first 12 issues.

>Just because Bob got tired of dealing with Hasbro and didn't feel
>particularly inspired as time went on doesn't negate his original
>accomplishments.

Noone ever scans the letters sections of the comics (sadily--sometimes
they're interesting), but did Budiansky say this in his last issue? The
"Transmissions" letters page is usually where that kind of announcement is
made.

ShadowWing

unread,
Jun 5, 2001, 5:56:42 PM6/5/01
to

Brian Kilby wrote
>> Shallow? Issue #75? Are you joking??
>>
>
>It's one big stupid fight. *That's* supposed to be depth?

You don't watch DragonBall Z, either? :) You really have to take #75
along with earier issues, starting about the time the Autobots end up in
Primus' chamber. (And what a way to introduce him: "Wow, you actually
mentioned the name of our god that we never heard about, and BTW, I worship
him." Like you couldn't tell what was about to happen.) It's like reading
#12 without #5 on--it's a big long story arc, with Matrix Quest as a
mini-arc within the big one.

>Scorponok/Zarak got that one memorable line in, but the rest was weak.

If you take Scorp/Zarak's journey through #71, you can follow his
self-discovery that climax's (and ends) at #75.

>I'm not that crazy about Dinobot's death either. /:)
>
>Deaths are done FAR too often in the Transformers mythos. These two do
>rank at the top, but that's because the rest are so damned bad.

There seems to be one consistance in both comics and soap operas:
ratings/sales low? Kill off character. Low again? Resurrect/clone dead
character. Just ask Superman. :)

>Crazy Grimlock with the crown ruled.

Thankfully not for long. :)

ShadowWing

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Jun 5, 2001, 7:15:30 PM6/5/01
to

Walkerton wrote in message ...
>> The G2 comic had wires and stuff showing and the art in that was
>> the worst official art I've seen.
>
>Definitely not what we're talking about.

My point was that just because we see in the inner mechanisms instead of
plates covering them (I always assumed the plates just slid into place, like
the Shielding Circuitry in #14, except probably more durable or whatever
term I'm thinking of) doesn't make it better artwork.

>> Can someone point me to pics of his work? I'm curious as to what
>> you guys are refering to. Plus I happen to like fancomics.
>
>http://www.bigbot.com/doug/
>
>There's some scans here and information on how to order it. I highly
>highly HIGHLY recommend it.

I'll definately consider it when the finances allow. It looks pretty
good, but how is the story on these comics? That's as--if not more--
important as to what I spend my money on.

Punicron

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Jun 5, 2001, 8:00:50 PM6/5/01
to
"ShadowWing" <the...@SPAMBLOCKADEsnet.net> wrote in message
news:vadT6.993$ld7.1...@typhoon.snet.net...

>
> Brian Kilby wrote
> >> Shallow? Issue #75? Are you joking??
> >>
> >
> >It's one big stupid fight. *That's* supposed to be depth?
>
> You don't watch DragonBall Z, either? :)

I have to admit, I'm a bit confused by DBZ - every time I watch, it's the
same thing:
Floaty Bad Guy: 'Hahahahahaa....you will never defeat me!'
Floaty Good Guy: 'Raaaaaah!' (starts glowing, makes ground explode)
Floaty Bad Guy (emerging from smoke): 'Hahahahahaa.'
Other stuff happens occasionally, does it? :)

You really have to take #75
> along with earier issues, starting about the time the Autobots end up in
> Primus' chamber. (And what a way to introduce him: "Wow, you actually
> mentioned the name of our god that we never heard about, and BTW, I
worship
> him." Like you couldn't tell what was about to happen.)

To be fair, I think Op used the phrase 'By Primus' in the issue before that,
and it wasn't really out of the blue for everyone, just one tiny little
continent :) Which leads me on to my question - is there any info on the
total readership of the comic worldwide? If Europe and Australia got the UK
stories, what kind of proportion is that compared to the US readership?
Would there have been as many people going 'Oh, yeah, that Primus guy again'
as were saying 'wtf??'

--
Punicron, Devourer of Small Pebbles

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