Re: DEC-10 SOS Editor Intra-Line Editing
Tim Shoppa
> I remember using the SOS editor on the DEC-10 and DEC-20. There
> was a command (alter, I think) that would put you in a mode to
> edit a line of text. The text line would be printed on the
> terminal, and then *under* the line you would type "ddd" to delete
> the three characters above those letters, etc.
>
> The reason I am bringing this up is: BASICA (and Extended Color
> BASIC on the Radio Shack Coco) "swiped" this line editing
> capability from SOS. So has anyone here used this editing mode in
> BASICA/GW-BASIC??? Who is the *originator* of this style of editing???
SOS files in the archives start at versions 23 (Brookings Institute)
in 1976:
http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/cgi-bin/searchbyname?name=sos.*
Version 23 seems to be based on the 1973 DEC release of Version 21.
Some of the names mentioned in the 1976 Brookings Institute version
documentation are names that I've seen posting to Usenet. I don't
think any of them are the original Stopgap or SOS authors, though, and
I've not ever heard anyone claiming to be the original authors
either :-).
Barb mentions LINED which AFAIK did not have anything like the alter
command in SOS, but has a clearer heritage:
http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/ap-c796e-sb/01/lined.mac.html
; LINED IS A DERVIATIVE OF
; DREDIT (DRUM EDITOR) WHICH WAS WRITTEN BY WILLIAM MEIR OF APPLIED
; LOGIC CORPORATION AND EXISTS AS PART OF THE DECUS LIBRARY.
; LINED'S COMMAND STRUCTURE IS SIMILIAR TO DEC'S "EDITOR"
; BUT WORKS WITH FILES WHICH RESIDE ON THE DISK INSTEAD OF
; ON DEC TAPE.
I'm guessing that LINED as part of the DECUS library really goes back
to the PDP-6 stuff - it does not appear on the LIB-10 tapes, but does
appear on many DEC distribution tapes.
Tim.
Tim Shoppa
> On Dec 20, 4:48 am, Charles Richmond <friz...@tx.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > I remember using the SOS editor on the DEC-10 and DEC-20. There
> > was a command (alter, I think) that would put you in a mode to
> > edit a line of text. The text line would be printed on the
> > terminal, and then *under* the line you would type "ddd" to delete
> > the three characters above those letters, etc.
>
> > The reason I am bringing this up is: BASICA (and Extended Color
> > BASIC on the Radio Shack Coco) "swiped" this line editing
> > capability from SOS. So has anyone here used this editing mode in
> > BASICA/GW-BASIC??? Who is the *originator* of this style of editing???
>
> SOS files in the archives start at versions 23 (Brookings Institute)
> in 1976:
>
> http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/cgi-bin/searchbyname?name=sos.*
>
> Version 23 seems to be based on the 1973 DEC release of Version 21.
Duh -
Looking in DECUS LIB10-261, Version 11 of SOS is credited to Applied
Data Research in 1971:
http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/decuslib10-06/01/43,50374/sosug.rno.html
By the time I knew of Applied Data Research (1980's) they were selling
really sucky software for IBM mainframes and, well, nothing else
AFAICT.
To be fair, almost all software is sucky. :-). But in my mind ADR was
one of the first to exhibit a sort of corporate suckiness in their
productization of what at the time I had regarded as rightfully
belonging in the hacker's domain. It was kind-of my personal
introduction to how computers which had previously been fun (even in a
beauracracy), had all the fun sucked out of them by commercial
companies claiming not just ownership of software, but ownership of
computerdom through legal actions. I would go as far as saying that in
my memory, ADR used legal filings and courtroom actions to gain a
foothold in the marketplace.
OK, my diatribe against how much I hated ADR 25 years ago is done for
now.
Tim.
Tim Shoppa
> OK, my diatribe against how much I hated ADR 25 years ago is done for
> now.
Ruminating (fuming?) more, they seem to have had the same "suck all
life out of interesting computing" attitude that Computer Associates
(CA) began wholesaling in the 80's and 90's. I'm not sure which one
came first. God, I hate them both.
Tim.
Bob, K1BC
> On Dec 20, 4:48 am, Charles Richmond <friz...@tx.rr.com> wrote:
>> Who is the *originator* of this style of editing???
>
> SOS files in the archives start at versions 23 (Brookings Institute)
> Some of the names mentioned in the 1976 Brookings Institute version
> documentation are names that I've seen posting to Usenet. I don't
> think any of them are the original Stopgap or SOS authors, though, and
> I've not ever heard anyone claiming to be the original authors
> either :-).
SOS (Son Of Stopgap) came from Stanford back in the PDP-6 days.
I never used it, so I don't know much about it or its authors.
But if there's any early history to be had, it would be at Stanford.
> Tim.
/Rcc
jmfbahciv
> On Dec 20, 4:48 am, Charles Richmond <friz...@tx.rr.com> wrote:
>> I remember using the SOS editor on the DEC-10 and DEC-20. There
>> was a command (alter, I think) that would put you in a mode to
>> edit a line of text. The text line would be printed on the
>> terminal, and then *under* the line you would type "ddd" to delete
>> the three characters above those letters, etc.
>>
>> The reason I am bringing this up is: BASICA (and Extended Color
>> BASIC on the Radio Shack Coco) "swiped" this line editing
>> capability from SOS. So has anyone here used this editing mode in
>> BASICA/GW-BASIC??? Who is the *originator* of this style of editing???
>
> SOS files in the archives start at versions 23 (Brookings Institute)
> in 1976:
>
> http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/cgi-bin/searchbyname?name=sos.*
>
> Version 23 seems to be based on the 1973 DEC release of Version 21.
>
> Some of the names mentioned in the 1976 Brookings Institute version
> documentation are names that I've seen posting to Usenet. I don't
> think any of them are the original Stopgap or SOS authors, though, and
> I've not ever heard anyone claiming to be the original authors
> either :-).
>
> Barb mentions LINED which AFAIK did not have anything like the alter
> command in SOS,
IIR, you had to type in the whole line. It was the precurser to
the A command which allowed you to S(earch) to the character
you wanted to begin editing.
> but has a clearer heritage:
>
> http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/ap-c796e-sb/01/lined.mac.html
>
> ; LINED IS A DERVIATIVE OF
> ; DREDIT (DRUM EDITOR) WHICH WAS WRITTEN BY WILLIAM MEIR OF APPLIED
> ; LOGIC CORPORATION AND EXISTS AS PART OF THE DECUS LIBRARY.
> ; LINED'S COMMAND STRUCTURE IS SIMILIAR TO DEC'S "EDITOR"
> ; BUT WORKS WITH FILES WHICH RESIDE ON THE DISK INSTEAD OF
> ; ON DEC TAPE.
>
> I'm guessing that LINED as part of the DECUS library really goes back
> to the PDP-6 stuff - it does not appear on the LIB-10 tapes, but does
> appear on many DEC distribution tapes.
>
Ain't comments wonderful? I don't know how we would have done our
work if we didn't have the hints hidden in those comments.
/BAH
jmfbahciv
job was to keep marketeers in their place. Somehow that didn't
carry into the corporate folklore of VMS and VAX. We did try
though. A former cost center manager of the PDP-10
development groups, took over the PDP-11 development when the -11s
were phased out of the core business. Part of his job was to
take on the new hires and, while they were doing development of
the -11s, train them in the corporate folklore. The best of
them took about a year to train before they would move into
the VMS development hordes.
/BAH
Tim Shoppa
> SOS (Son Of Stopgap) came from Stanford back in the PDP-6 days.
> I never used it, so I don't know much about it or its authors.
> But if there's any early history to be had, it would be at Stanford.
It looks like Stanford AI Lab Operating Note Number 50 would be the
document to get a hold of to learn about SOS in the PDP-6 days. Maybe
I can find a copy... gotta ask the right guys....gotta remember not to
make any jokes about "Junior College".... :-)
Tim.
Charles Richmond
I don't know if this helps, but I found this reference on a ACM site:
Savitzky, S., STANFORD ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE LABORATORY
OPERATING NOTE- 50.1, SON OF STOPGAP, September 1969
ISTM that there are *no* "junior colleges" anymore. Now they are
all called "community colleges". Is that progress??? ;-)
--
+----------------------------------------+
| Charles and Francis Richmond |
| |
| plano dot net at aquaporin4 dot com |
+----------------------------------------+
Charles Richmond
I *may* have found the Note you are referring to:
http://www.saildart.org/prog/DOC/html/000569?1217,76800
Mark Crispin
> Tim Shoppa wrote:
>> gotta remember not to
>> make any jokes about "Junior College".... :-)
> "community colleges". Is that progress??? ;-)
Tim must be from UC Berkeley, Stanford's hated football rival.
A standard Berkeley joke is to refer to Stanford as the "Junior College",
since its full name is the "Leland Stanford Junior University". Stanford
was founded by Leland Stanford (one of the great robber barons of the 19th
century) and his wife Jane Lathrop Stanford, as a memorial to their son,
Leland Stanford Jr. who died of typhoid at age 15.
The corresponding insult by Stanford is "Bezerkley".
-- Mark --
http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.
Charles Richmond
> On Tue, 22 Dec 2009, Charles Richmond posted:
>> Tim Shoppa wrote:
>>> gotta remember not to
>>> make any jokes about "Junior College".... :-)
>> ISTM that there are *no* "junior colleges" anymore. Now they are all
>> called "community colleges". Is that progress??? ;-)
>
> Tim must be from UC Berkeley, Stanford's hated football rival.
>
> A standard Berkeley joke is to refer to Stanford as the "Junior
> College", since its full name is the "Leland Stanford Junior
> University". Stanford was founded by Leland Stanford (one of the great
> robber barons of the 19th century) and his wife Jane Lathrop Stanford,
> as a memorial to their son, Leland Stanford Jr. who died of typhoid at
> age 15.
>
> The corresponding insult by Stanford is "Bezerkley".
>
Ah, yes... Leland Stanford: he of the "Golden Spike", who could
*not* hit that spike a "good lick". I did *not* know about Leland
Stanford Junior; I always thought that Stanford was named after
Governor Stanford.
glen herrmannsfeldt
(snip)
> Ah, yes... Leland Stanford: he of the "Golden Spike", who could
> *not* hit that spike a "good lick". I did *not* know about Leland
> Stanford Junior; I always thought that Stanford was named after
> Governor Stanford.
And then there is:
http://gate2wisdom.com/story-site-map.htm##cover
-- glen
Tim Shoppa
> TimShoppawrote:
> > On Dec 21, 9:54 am, "Bob, K1BC" <fake.addr...@k1bc.com> wrote:
> >> SOS (Son Of Stopgap) came from Stanford back in the PDP-6 days.
> >> I never used it, so I don't know much about it or its authors.
> >> But if there's any early history to be had, it would be at Stanford.
>
> > It looks like Stanford AI Lab Operating Note Number 50 would be the
> > document to get a hold of to learn about SOS in the PDP-6 days. Maybe
> > I can find a copy... gotta ask the right guys....gotta remember not to
> > make any jokes about "Junior College".... :-)
>
> I *may* have found the Note you are referring to:
>
> http://www.saildart.org/prog/DOC/html/000569?1217,76800
Cool, I began to search around Bruce Baumgart's site for such a thing
but quickly got lost. I'm sure the directory structure means something
to a SAIL guy but I am not one of them. In any event you found it!
Cool!
I think it's possible that Stopgap may have also defined the standard
format for 5-digit-sequence-number text files in the filesystem. Or
maybe it used an already existing convention.
I also have slowly realized that EDITS in DECUS 10-181 is another
branch in the Stopgap tree dating from 1970-1973. From
http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/decuslib10-02/01/43,50265/edits.mac.html
00100 TITLE EDITS V13(20) A MODIFIED VERSION OF THE STOPGAP EDITOR
00200 SUBTTL COMMENTS AND MODIFICATION HISTORY
00300 ; W.WEIHER/RG/JBS/AVR/RB/11-OCT-71
00400
00500 ;TEMPORARY EDITOR FOR THE DISK--WORKS BY RECOPYING
00600
00700 ;THIS MEMBER OF THE STOPGAP CLAN WAS ADAPTED FROM THE VERSION
00800 ;RUNNING AT SANDERS ASSOCIATES IN NASHUA, NEW HAMPSHIRE AND
00900 ;TURNED OVER TO DEC AS PART OF AN AGREEMENT. THE MODIFICATIONS
01000 ;MADE BY GORIN AND SAUTER WERE DONE AT SANDERS. MANY OF THE
MODS
01100 ;MADE BY RYDER AT DEC BENEFITTED FROM CONVERSATIONS WITH BOTH
01200 ;GORIN AND SAUTER.
01300
01400 ;THIS VERSION (13,,21 JANUARY 26,1973) HAS BEEN RUNNING ON
01500 ;DEC'S SYSTEM #40 IN HEAVY PRODUCTION FOR OVER A YEAR.
01600
01700 ;THERE ARE SOME MINOR BUGS (KNOW TO CRAIG FLETCHER BUT NOT ME),
01800 ;BUT IT IS SUITABLE FOR IMMEDIATE, HEAVY USE.
01900 ;FOR DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THIS AND THE MALUG SOS, CONTACT TED
HESS.
02000
02100 LOC 137
02200 VERSION 13,,21 ;COMMENTS AND THIS LINE CHANGED THIS EDIT
02300
02400
02500 ;MODIFIED SEPT, 1969 BY R.GORIN
02600 ;REWRITTEN TO MACRO, FOR REENTRANCY
02700 ;LEVEL D FEATURES ADDED EARLY 1971 J. SAUTER
Tim Shoppa
> On Tue, 22 Dec 2009, Charles Richmond posted:
>
> > TimShoppawrote:
> >> gotta remember not to
> >> make any jokes about "Junior College".... :-)
> > ISTM that there are *no* "junior colleges" anymore. Now they are all called
> > "community colleges". Is that progress??? ;-)
>
> Tim must be from UC Berkeley, Stanford's hated football rival.
No, that's what we teased them with from Caltech, which was not
ANYBODY's football rival. We teased Stanford purely from our status as
their academic superior.
Tim.
Rich Alderson
> On Dec 22, 7:16=A0pm, Mark Crispin <m...@panda.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 22 Dec 2009, Charles Richmond posted:
>>> TimShoppawrote:
>>>> gotta remember not to
>>>> make any jokes about "Junior College".... :-)
>>> ISTM that there are *no* "junior colleges" anymore. Now they are all called
>>> "community colleges". Is that progress??? =A0 ;-)
>> Tim must be from UC Berkeley, Stanford's hated football rival.
> No, that's what we teased them with from Caltech, which was not
> ANYBODY's football rival. We teased Stanford purely from our status as
> their academic superior.
Hmm. I seem to remember a Caltech victory over MIT in the Rose Bowl one
year...
I don't recall Stanford students having a funny name for Caltech. Most of
their vitriol was reserved for USC: "University of Spoiled Children" (???),
"University of Second Choice" (ow).
(Berkeley was just the public school across the Bay, and the rivalry was more
fun than anything else. Then again, there was the incident with the bear...)
--
Rich Alderson "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime."
ne...@alderson.users.panix.com --Death, of the Endless
Rich Alderson
> Cool, I began to search around Bruce Baumgart's site for such a thing
> but quickly got lost. I'm sure the directory structure means something
> to a SAIL guy but I am not one of them. In any event you found it!
> Cool!
Was this recently? Shortly after I started researching some things at
SAILDART, it disappeared completely. Is there a new name?
(Yes, the directory structure makes sense to a SAIL user.)
glen herrmannsfeldt
(snip)
> No, that's what we teased them with from Caltech, which was not
> ANYBODY's football rival. We teased Stanford purely from our status as
> their academic superior.
For some years they were playing TT and MIT, that is, Tijuana
Tech and Mexicali Institute of Technology, and actually winning.
(One by default, as the opponents didn't get through customs.)
-- glen
glen herrmannsfeldt
> format for 5-digit-sequence-number text files in the filesystem. Or
> maybe it used an already existing convention.
I thought it was existing, but SOS was the only one I ever used
that generated them. Before the PDP-10, I used WYLBUR which was
similar enough to SOS that I could learn it fast. I didn't use
TECO until I started working with RT-11.
With SOS in line number mode, it saves the line numbers as
five digit ASCII characters with the low bit set. The compilers
then print out those numbers as line numbers in listings and
error messages.
When I worked on group projects with others using TECO, I saved
without line numbers.
-- glen
Patrick Scheible
I am deeply skeptical. Leland Jr. was only 15 when he died; did he
really attend Harvard at that age? The parents were tremendously rich
and the former governor and first lady of California. They would have
no trouble writing ahead for an appointment, and don't seem like the
sort to appear anywhere in homespun threadbear suits. And California
was the Stanford's home, why would they even consider donating a
building on the other side of the country?
-- Patrick
Patrick Scheible
> Tim Shoppa <sho...@trailing-edge.com> writes:
>
> > On Dec 22, 7:16=A0pm, Mark Crispin <m...@panda.com> wrote:
> >> On Tue, 22 Dec 2009, Charles Richmond posted:
>
> >>> TimShoppawrote:
> >>>> gotta remember not to
> >>>> make any jokes about "Junior College".... :-)
>
> >>> ISTM that there are *no* "junior colleges" anymore. Now they are all called
> >>> "community colleges". Is that progress??? =A0 ;-)
>
> >> Tim must be from UC Berkeley, Stanford's hated football rival.
>
> > No, that's what we teased them with from Caltech, which was not
> > ANYBODY's football rival. We teased Stanford purely from our status as
> > their academic superior.
>
> Hmm. I seem to remember a Caltech victory over MIT in the Rose Bowl one
> year...
>
> I don't recall Stanford students having a funny name for Caltech. Most of
> their vitriol was reserved for USC: "University of Spoiled Children" (???),
> "University of Second Choice" (ow).
>
> (Berkeley was just the public school across the Bay, and the rivalry was more
> fun than anything else. Then again, there was the incident with the bear...)
And several incidents of the theft of The Axe, on both sides.
-- Patrick
Charles Richmond
> Tim Shoppa <sho...@trailing-edge.com> writes:
>
>> Cool, I began to search around Bruce Baumgart's site for such a thing
>> but quickly got lost. I'm sure the directory structure means something
>> to a SAIL guy but I am not one of them. In any event you found it!
>> Cool!
>
> Was this recently? Shortly after I started researching some things at
> SAILDART, it disappeared completely. Is there a new name?
>
> (Yes, the directory structure makes sense to a SAIL user.)
>
I located the "Son of Stopgap" memo using Google on Tuesday
afternoon (Dec. 22). I do *not* know anything about how SAILDART
is structured. I searched on "Stopgap editor" or some such, and
with "mousing around", found the term "SAILON-50.3". Searching on
that with Google led me to the page with the memo.
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
> Tim must be from UC Berkeley, Stanford's hated football rival.
>
> A standard Berkeley joke is to refer to Stanford as the "Junior
> College", since its full name is the "Leland Stanford Junior
> University". Stanford was founded by Leland Stanford (one of the
> great robber barons of the 19th century) and his wife Jane Lathrop
> Stanford, as a memorial to their son, Leland Stanford Jr. who died of
> typhoid at age 15.
well does anybody remember this from junior high?
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/drinkingsongs/mp3s/field-work/patrick-collection/sarah-curry/leland-stanford-junior-farm.htm
also referenced here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leland_Stanford,_Jr.
--
40+yrs virtualization experience (since Jan68), online at home since Mar1970
Peter Flass
Actualy I suspect it's a common idea regardless of where you're from.
The first time I heard the full name of Stanford (probably during a
football game), I thought "Junior University? I thought it was a
four-year school."
jmfbahciv
> Tim Shoppa <sho...@trailing-edge.com> writes:
>
>> On Dec 22, 7:16=A0pm, Mark Crispin <m...@panda.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 22 Dec 2009, Charles Richmond posted:
>
>>>> TimShoppawrote:
>>>>> gotta remember not to
>>>>> make any jokes about "Junior College".... :-)
>
>>>> ISTM that there are *no* "junior colleges" anymore. Now they are all called
>>>> "community colleges". Is that progress??? =A0 ;-)
>
>>> Tim must be from UC Berkeley, Stanford's hated football rival.
>
>> No, that's what we teased them with from Caltech, which was not
>> ANYBODY's football rival. We teased Stanford purely from our status as
>> their academic superior.
>
> Hmm. I seem to remember a Caltech victory over MIT in the Rose Bowl one
> year...
>
> I don't recall Stanford students having a funny name for Caltech. Most of
> their vitriol was reserved for USC: "University of Spoiled Children" (???),
> "University of Second Choice" (ow).
>
> (Berkeley was just the public school across the Bay, and the rivalry was more
> fun than anything else. Then again, there was the incident with the bear...)
>
/BAH
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
> well does anybody remember this from junior high?
> http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/drinkingsongs/mp3s/field-work/patrick-collection/sarah-curry/leland-stanford-junior-farm.htm
re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009s.html#13 DEC-10 SOS Editor Intra-Line Editing
for some reason ... i'm fairly certain singing ...
On the Leland Stanford Junior Varsity Farm.
instead of given in above
On the Leland Stanford Junior Farm.
... it went along with singing 99 bottles of beer on the wall. type of
stuff in junior high riding sports/school bus to away games.
Scott Hemphill
Re: ... not ANYBODY's football rival.
That wasn't always the case. In 1944, Caltech's team was not only
undefeated, but unscored upon. The combined score off all the games
was 159 to 0. The defeated teams included those from UCLA and USC.
See:
http://media.caltech.edu/press_releases/12408
Scott
--
Scott Hemphill hemp...@alumni.caltech.edu
"This isn't flying. This is falling, with style." -- Buzz Lightyear
Rich Alderson
> Rich Alderson <ne...@alderson.users.panix.com> writes:
>> (Berkeley was just the public school across the Bay, and the rivalry was
>> more fun than anything else. Then again, there was the incident with the
>> bear...)
> And several incidents of the theft of The Axe, on both sides.
That's why I mean by fun. Oski was an extension of The Axe that shaded into
felony territory...
Rich Alderson
> Rich Alderson wrote:
>> (Berkeley was just the public school across the Bay, and the rivalry was
>> more fun than anything else. Then again, there was the incident with the
>> bear...)
> What bear?
There is a stuffed California Golden Bear (a variety of grizzly, and the state
symbol) in a locked glass case in the student union at Berkeley. Out in the
middle of the floor of a public area. The bear's (nick)name is Oski--I have
no idea why that should be.
One year, shortly before the Big Game (when the Axe committees of the two
universities plot minor mayhem and predations on each others' campuses, such
as stealing the eponymous Axe from the opposing winner of the previous year's
Big Game), Oski disappeared from his case. No tool marks, no broken glass,
nothing to indicate how, or who.
It became a cause celebre. Oski was gone! It went on so long that an SF
local cartoonist, who had a long running strip entitled "Travels with Farley"
(later simply "Farley") that featured a group of talking bears among its
characters began doing a "photos of the traveling gnome" occasional strip, the
funniest of which being one in which Hilda the bear was outraged to come upon
a photo of Oski in a Stanford tank top.
About a year later, Oski turned up safe and sound. No one was ever prosecuted
for the removal.
None of my friends on the Stanford Axe committee ever said a word about it.
Ever.
Rich Alderson
> I located the "Son of Stopgap" memo using Google on Tuesday
> afternoon (Dec. 22). I do *not* know anything about how SAILDART
> is structured. I searched on "Stopgap editor" or some such, and
> with "mousing around", found the term "SAILON-50.3". Searching on
> that with Google led me to the page with the memo.
OK, thanks. Got it. It was gone for several months.
jmfbahciv
story I heard of MIT putting a VW bug on top of the dome.
/BAH
jmfbahciv
> Charles Richmond <fri...@tx.rr.com> writes:
>
>> I located the "Son of Stopgap" memo using Google on Tuesday
>> afternoon (Dec. 22). I do *not* know anything about how SAILDART
>> is structured. I searched on "Stopgap editor" or some such, and
>> with "mousing around", found the term "SAILON-50.3". Searching on
>> that with Google led me to the page with the memo.
>
> OK, thanks. Got it. It was gone for several months.
>
w.r.t. the subject header. There had to be a way for an
on-line editor to be able to input line numbers of source
files on cards and then ignore them. I suppose the same
act of ignorance also had to be done by the compilers
and interpreters.
/BAH
Peter Flass
>
> w.r.t. the subject header. There had to be a way for an
> on-line editor to be able to input line numbers of source
> files on cards and then ignore them. I suppose the same
> act of ignorance also had to be done by the compilers
> and interpreters.
>
I don't completely understand your comments. All IBM editors handle
records with or without sequence numbers, and all compilers ignore them
if present.
Charlie Gibbs
writes:
> Rich Alderson wrote:
>
>> None of my friends on the Stanford Axe committee ever said a word
>> about it. Ever.
>
> Kewl. Especially about no trace of how it got out. Reminds me of the
> story I heard of MIT putting a VW bug on top of the dome.
Or the University of B.C. engineers hanging a bug from the Lions Gate
Bridge.
The City of Vancouver was somewhat upset when they stole the
Nine O'Clock Gun one year (it sits at Brockton Point in Stanley
Park and fires every night at 9 p.m.) - but on the other hand
it gave them the opportunity to give the gun's foundation a
much-needed rebuild.
--
/~\ cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
John Francis
>
>Kewl. Especially about no trace of how it got out. Reminds me of the
>story I heard of MIT putting a VW bug on top of the dome.
Pre-dated (by many decades) by an Austin Seven appearing on the
roof of the Senate House (at Cambridge University).
That, too, was a mystery for many years, although the story has
now been told (fifty years after the events occurred).
John Francis
Yep. In fact every program that could take input from arbitrary
text files had to know how to skip line numbers,
Mark Crispin
> Yep. In fact every program that could take input from arbitrary
> text files had to know how to skip line numbers,
Not quite true.
On TOPS-20 opening a file in ASCII mode would skip line numbers. Line
numbered files had the line number packed as 7bit X 5 in a single 36-bit
word (thus line numbers were 5 digits), with the "unused" low order bit
set. ASCII mode would skip any words that had that bit set. IIRC, the
previous line was padded with sufficient NULs to cause the line number to
start on a word boundary.
I think that a similar feature existed in TOPS-10 as well. Anyway,
programs which used the TOPS-10 compatibility package on TOPS-20 also had
the same blindness to line numbers when opening in text mode.
The benefit of this is that programs did not have to know how to skip line
numbers unless for some strange reason they opened the file in binary
mode. The OS did the skipping for you.
-- Mark --
http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.
jmfbahciv
consisting of a card deck to pretending the disk file was
a card deck. We still see hints of that time in everything.
IBM's dependence on cards was evident when I first met
a FORTRAN on the PDP-10 running under TOPS-10 (or 4S72 back
then).
To run FORTRAN, we had to issue the commands:
ASSIGN DSK 5
ASSIGN DSK [SHIT CAN'T REMEMBER THE MAGIC NUMBER]n
to match the READ/WRITE (n, format statement line number)
where n was the arguments to the ASSIGN DSK commands.
FORTRAN would lookup the disk file FORT05.DAT, IIRC
for the READ and FORT0n.DAT for WRITE. or do I have
those numbers bassackwards?
/BAH
jmfbahciv
> On Thu, 24 Dec 2009, John Francis posted:
>> Yep. In fact every program that could take input from arbitrary
>> text files had to know how to skip line numbers,
>
> Not quite true.
>
> On TOPS-20 opening a file in ASCII mode would skip line numbers. Line
> numbered files had the line number packed as 7bit X 5 in a single 36-bit
> word (thus line numbers were 5 digits), with the "unused" low order bit
> set. ASCII mode would skip any words that had that bit set. IIRC, the
> previous line was padded with sufficient NULs to cause the line number
> to start on a word boundary.
>
> I think that a similar feature existed in TOPS-10 as well. Anyway,
> programs which used the TOPS-10 compatibility package on TOPS-20 also
> had the same blindness to line numbers when opening in text mode.
>
> The benefit of this is that programs did not have to know how to skip
> line numbers unless for some strange reason they opened the file in
> binary mode. The OS did the skipping for you.
>
is TOPS-10 I'm talking about). I'm not sure that the -20 had to do
this. By the time the -20 software was being used, line numbers
were becoming annoying disk users. I don't know when BASIC stopped
using the line numbers.
/BAH
jmfbahciv
Sure. Now go back in time about 10 years when IBM was all cards.
There was very little software which could input "cards" from
the disk, let alone write disk files. That transition from
basing all usage on cards to disk files was long and painful.
/BAH
jmfbahciv
> In article <hgvjg...@news2.newsguy.com>, jmfbahciv@aol (jmfbahciv)
> writes:
>
>> Rich Alderson wrote:
>>
>>> None of my friends on the Stanford Axe committee ever said a word
>>> about it. Ever.
>> Kewl. Especially about no trace of how it got out. Reminds me of the
>> story I heard of MIT putting a VW bug on top of the dome.
>
> Or the University of B.C. engineers hanging a bug from the Lions Gate
> Bridge.
>
> The City of Vancouver was somewhat upset when they stole the
> Nine O'Clock Gun one year (it sits at Brockton Point in Stanley
> Park and fires every night at 9 p.m.) - but on the other hand
> it gave them the opportunity to give the gun's foundation a
> much-needed rebuild.
>
thing as an opportunity to fix something. Sounds like monitor
development to me.
/BAH
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
> It was a necessary part of the transfer of using a file
> consisting of a card deck to pretending the disk file was
> a card deck. We still see hints of that time in everything.
> IBM's dependence on cards was evident when I first met
> a FORTRAN on the PDP-10 running under TOPS-10 (or 4S72 back
> then).
fortran predates 360 ... with unit record input/output (unit 5 was
input, unit 6 was output) or tape input/output.
http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/FORTRAN/
other
http://www.mcjones.org/dustydecks/archives/2009/10/14/106/
when i first transferred to SJR ... backus office was about 6-8
doors down from mine.
ibm 704 fortran manual
http://www.fortran.com/ibm.html
fortran wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortran
os/360 fortran program jcl might be something like
step exec pgm=*
ft06f001 dd sysout=a
ft05f001 dd *
CMS imported lots of os/360 applications, compilers, etc and had a
os/360 emulation layer. fortran os/360 (i/o) execution libraries would
have OPEN for ft05f001 & ft06f001 ... cms uses FILEDEF command to
simulate the os/360 "DD" statement
http://wwwasdoc.web.cern.ch/wwwasdoc/zebra_html3/node86.html
jmfbahciv
> jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv@aol> writes:
>> It was a necessary part of the transfer of using a file
>> consisting of a card deck to pretending the disk file was
>> a card deck. We still see hints of that time in everything.
>> IBM's dependence on cards was evident when I first met
>> a FORTRAN on the PDP-10 running under TOPS-10 (or 4S72 back
>> then).
>
> fortran predates 360 ...
Sure.
>with unit record input/output (unit 5 was
> input, unit 6 was output) or tape input/output.
> http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/FORTRAN/
Ah, thanks. I could not remember the magic numbers and
my fingers can only type them automatically on a keypunch,
not a square keyboard ;-).
>
> other
> http://www.mcjones.org/dustydecks/archives/2009/10/14/106/
>
> when i first transferred to SJR ... backus office was about 6-8
> doors down from mine.
>
> ibm 704 fortran manual
> http://www.fortran.com/ibm.html
>
> fortran wiki
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortran
>
> os/360 fortran program jcl might be something like
>
> step exec pgm=*
> ft06f001 dd sysout=a
> ft05f001 dd *
>
>
> CMS imported lots of os/360 applications, compilers, etc and had a
> os/360 emulation layer. fortran os/360 (i/o) execution libraries would
> have OPEN for ft05f001 & ft06f001 ... cms uses FILEDEF command to
> simulate the os/360 "DD" statement
> http://wwwasdoc.web.cern.ch/wwwasdoc/zebra_html3/node86.html
>
/BAH
Peter Flass
Not really. The IEBGENER utility was, I believe, part of the earliest
releases of OS/360 and could easily copy a file from one device to
another. HASP spooling made it easy to read "cards" from a spooled disk
file. VM had similar capabilities and was much less card-oriented from
the start, except the the accounting routines up thru VM/370 wanted to
punch a physical card for each user/job.
jmfbahciv
> jmfbahciv wrote:
>> Peter Flass wrote:
>>> jmfbahciv wrote:
>>>>
>>>> w.r.t. the subject header. There had to be a way for an
>>>> on-line editor to be able to input line numbers of source
>>>> files on cards and then ignore them. I suppose the same
>>>> act of ignorance also had to be done by the compilers
>>>> and interpreters.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't completely understand your comments. All IBM editors handle
>>> records with or without sequence numbers, and all compilers ignore
>>> them if present.
>>
>> Sure. Now go back in time about 10 years when IBM was all cards.
>> There was very little software which could input "cards" from
>> the disk, let alone write disk files. That transition from
>> basing all usage on cards to disk files was long and painful.
>>
>
> Not really.
Yes, really :-).
> The IEBGENER utility was, I believe, part of the earliest
> releases of OS/360 and could easily copy a file from one device to
> another. HASP spooling made it easy to read "cards" from a spooled disk
> file. VM had similar capabilities and was much less card-oriented from
> the start, except the the accounting routines up thru VM/370 wanted to
> punch a physical card for each user/job.
And the 360 came after. Humans were suspicious of "invisible"
card decks. Retraining people who were used to the real cards
Dave Wade
"jmfbahciv" <jmfbahciv@aol> wrote in message
news:hgvjk...@news2.newsguy.com...
Generally cols 73-80 are reserved for sequence numbers... Note these are not
line numbers.
>
> /BAH
jmfbahciv
If you were an experienced programmer, you numbered the line numbers
by adding 10 or 100 and not 1.
I don't remember how a deck of FORTRAN cards read in would look
in a disk file. I'm wondering if the word containing the sequence
number with bit 0 set would precede the word containing the <CRLF>
or postcede the <CRLF>.
/BAH
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
> Generally cols 73-80 are reserved for sequence numbers... Note these
> are not line numbers.
360 assembler had the "ISEQ" statements that specified columns for
the sequence number (and assembler checking numbers that "cards"
are in correct order ... aka card deck getting dropped and the
cards scrambled/shuffled and not returned to original order) ...
ISEQ reference to current assembler:
http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/infocenter/ratdevz/v7r5/topic/com.ibm.ent.asm.zos.doc/topics/fn1lrmst146.htm
cp67 (& later vm370) convention was that base assembler file had its
statements sequenced by 1000 in cols 73-80 (and source having "ISEQ
73,80").
cp67 CMS "UPDATE" command used source sequence numbers (in base/source
file) for what to replace/insert/delete ... aka
./ R nnnnn< nnnnn>
./ I nnnnn
./ D nnnnn< nnnnn>
however, the sequence numbers in the replaced/inserted records had to
have the serial numbers manually typed (CMS edit had command that would
reserialize whole source ... specifying starting number and increment
number).
I was doing so much changes as undergraduate ... I did the "$"
convention ... that would automatically generate the sequence numbers
for replace/insert records. recent reference:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009s.html#17 old email
later editors would automatically generate/save an "update" file based
on edit source changes.
some past posts mentioning UPDATE command dot/slach statements
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#39 CMS update
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004b.html#59 A POX on you, Dennis Ritchie!!!
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004g.html#43 Sequence Numbbers in Location 73-80
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004p.html#10 vm/370 smp support and shared segment protection hack
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005i.html#30 Status of Software Reuse?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006g.html#5 The Pankian Metaphor
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006m.html#44 Musings on a holiday weekend
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006n.html#45 sorting
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006u.html#26 Assembler question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006w.html#42 vmshare
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006w.html#48 vmshare
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007e.html#59 FBA rant
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008r.html#38 "True" story of the birth of the IBM PC
Joe Pfeiffer
> Dave Wade wrote:
>>
>> "jmfbahciv" <jmfbahciv@aol> wrote in message
>> news:hgvjk...@news2.newsguy.com...
>>> Rich Alderson wrote:
>>>> Charles Richmond <fri...@tx.rr.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> I located the "Son of Stopgap" memo using Google on Tuesday
>>>>> afternoon (Dec. 22). I do *not* know anything about how SAILDART
>>>>> is structured. I searched on "Stopgap editor" or some such, and
>>>>> with "mousing around", found the term "SAILON-50.3". Searching on
>>>>> that with Google led me to the page with the memo.
>>>>
>>>> OK, thanks. Got it. It was gone for several months.
>>>>
>>>
>>> w.r.t. the subject header. There had to be a way for an
>>> on-line editor to be able to input line numbers of source
>>> files on cards and then ignore them. I suppose the same
>>> act of ignorance also had to be done by the compilers
>>> and interpreters.
>>
>> Generally cols 73-80 are reserved for sequence numbers... Note these
>> are not line numbers.
>>
> That was FORTRAN. BASIC used its sequence numbers as line numbers.
> If you were an experienced programmer, you numbered the line numbers
> by adding 10 or 100 and not 1.
What you're describing as BASIC line numbers is sequence numbers, and is
how FORTRAN programmers did it too. Line numbers start at 1 and advance
by 1; sequence numbers start at anyrhing and advance by anything, but
must be kept in sequence.
--
As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should
be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;
and this we should do freely and generously. (Benjamin Franklin)
Charlie Gibbs
writes:
Yes, but that was a long time ago. It wasn't the same group of people
who recently passed a bylaw allowing them to enter anyone's premises
on 24 hours' notice for the purpose of removing any signs critical of
the Olympics.
ArarghMai...@not.at.arargh.com
COBOL, too, IIRC.
--
ArarghMail912 at [drop the 'http://www.' from ->] http://www.arargh.com
BCET Basic Compiler Page: http://www.arargh.com/basic/index.html
To reply by email, remove the extra stuff from the reply address.
Peter Flass
I'm probably the only person in the world who used the TSO editor on a
tty and variable-length-record files (performance was *that* bad), but
TSO gave you a choice. With fixed-length records the last 8 bytes were
reserved for sequence numbers, if any. With variable-length records it
was the first eight bytes after the record length.
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
Peter Flass <Peter...@Yahoo.com> writes:
> I'm probably the only person in the world who used the TSO editor on a
> tty and variable-length-record files (performance was *that* bad), but
> TSO gave you a choice. With fixed-length records the last 8 bytes
> were reserved for sequence numbers, if any. With variable-length
> records it was the first eight bytes after the record length.
re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009s.html#37 DEC-10 SOS Editor Intra-Line Editing
i considered what I did in HASP (implementing cms editor syntax along
with 2741 & tty terminal support ) much better than what came along
later in TSO ... (other) recent posts in hillgang mailing list
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009r.html#63 tty
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009s.html#0 tty
current xedit uses "trunc=nn" to specify how many columns to display
http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/infocenter/zvm/v5r4/topic/com.ibm.zvm.v54.hcpl0/hcsx0b3019.htm
when I added tty support to cp67 ... tty33 regularly truncated (or
wrapped) at col. 72.
doing some search engine ... turned up this unrelated reference:
http://csg.uwaterloo.ca/sdtp/watscr.html
from above:
Waterloo SCRIPT is a rewritten and extended version of a processor
called NSCRIPT that had been converted to OS and TSO from CP-67/CMS
SCRIPT. The original NSCRIPT package is available from the SHARE Program
Library. Waterloo obtained NSCRIPT in late 1974 as a viable alternative
to extending ATS to meet local requirements. The local acceptance of
Waterloo SCRIPT has continued to provide the motivation for additional
on-going development.
... snip ...
and the above was used at cern ... leading up to creation of HTML
when we moved a couple years ago ... lots of stuff (including old
manuals) went into storage locker ... so it takes a lot more effort to
dig out the old cp67 documentation; however bitsaver has one of the
manuals:
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/360/cp67/
Mark Crispin
>>> The City of Vancouver was somewhat upset
> who recently passed a bylaw allowing them to enter anyone's premises
> on 24 hours' notice for the purpose of removing any signs critical of
> the Olympics.
That's what happens when you let in a bunch of leftist Americans in order
to thumb your national nose at the USA (as Canada did under Trudeau during
the Vietnam era). They take up citizenship in your country, and then
proceed to worm their way into public office. Then they use this power to
create the socialist paradise (including prohibiting incorrect speech)
they could never do in their home country.
Vancouver's city government is a good example, although I have observed
these ex-Americans elsewhere in Canada. They're easy to spot; they're
"more Canadian" than the native-born to the point of being aggressive.
BC is actually a very nice place; and the further you get from the
urbanized political correctness of Vancouver and Victoria the nicer it
becomes. There's this sense of relief as the Trans-Canada Highway reaches
Hope (a great name for that town), exits the freeway, and heads up the
Fraser River valley towards the Cariboo and the real Canada.
glen herrmannsfeldt
(snip)
> Generally cols 73-80 are reserved for sequence numbers... Note these are not
> line numbers.
WYLBUR would normally put the line numbers in columns 73-80 when
submitting a batch job. The normal WYLBUR file format included
the line numbers.
I don't remember now how TSO editors worked, but I think line numbers
also went into 73-80. The normal TSO storage format, as well as
I remember, was FB-80, also known as card format. (Fixed length 80
column records.) If line numbers were stored, 73-80 would have been
the place to store them.
-- glen
Peter Flass
>
> Vancouver's city government is a good example, although I have observed
> these ex-Americans elsewhere in Canada. They're easy to spot; they're
> "more Canadian" than the native-born to the point of being aggressive.
An "aggressive Canadian" sounds like an oxymoron, eh?
Mike Ross
Cambridge was fun, many possibilites for aquatic mayhem. I remember
participating in punt jousting.
Mike
--
http://www.corestore.org
'As I walk along these shores
I am the history within'
Charles Richmond
The "editor of choice" for the IBM financial folks at a PPoE in
the early 80's... was Panvalet. Is this similar to the "TSO
editor"??? ISTM that they used it on a 3270 terminal.
--
+----------------------------------------+
| Charles and Francis Richmond |
| |
| plano dot net at aquaporin4 dot com |
+----------------------------------------+
Charles Richmond
> In alt.sys.pdp10 Dave Wade <g8...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> (snip)
>
>> Generally cols 73-80 are reserved for sequence numbers... Note these are not
>> line numbers.
>
> WYLBUR would normally put the line numbers in columns 73-80 when
> submitting a batch job. The normal WYLBUR file format included
> the line numbers.
>
ISTM that putting the WYLBUR line numbers in columns 73-80 when
submitting a batch job... was optional. One could submit a "list"
job just to get a listing of WYLBUR's "active area", and that
would have line numbers "in front" of each line.
Mark Crispin
That's how you can tell that they are ex-Americans!
Charles Richmond
They're all a bunch of "killer rabbits"!!! ;-)
glen herrmannsfeldt
(snip)
> ISTM that putting the WYLBUR line numbers in columns 73-80 when
> submitting a batch job... was optional. One could submit a "list"
> job just to get a listing of WYLBUR's "active area", and that
> would have line numbers "in front" of each line.
Optional, but I believe the default.
Use the unnumbered option to remove them.
Also for list and list offline.
It makes it easier to go back and edit files with the numbers.
Also, WYLBUR line numbers are eight digits, with three after
the decimal point. That way you can number by ones and still
have plenty of room to add more later. You get either seven
digits with decimal point, or eight digits and no decimal
point in 73-80.
I believe SOS by default numbered by 10s or 100s leaving some
space to add more without renumbering.
-- glen
ArarghMai...@not.at.arargh.com
No, not so far as I know.
Panvalet was an improved version of IEBUPDT(or however it was
spelled), ie, a batch program. I still have a 'USER REFERENCE CARD'
dated 3-1-71. It used "++" commands instead of "./". I think its
main claims to fame were compressed card image storage, and
intelligent handling of different source file formats.
I suppose you could use it directly on a TSO terminal, but why bother?
Hmmm, I see from Google, that it is still around.
Gene Wirchenko
wrote:
>In article <hgvjg...@news2.newsguy.com>, jmfbahciv@aol (jmfbahciv)
>writes:
>
>> Rich Alderson wrote:
>>
>>> None of my friends on the Stanford Axe committee ever said a word
>>> about it. Ever.
>>
>> Kewl. Especially about no trace of how it got out. Reminds me of the
>> story I heard of MIT putting a VW bug on top of the dome.
>
>Or the University of B.C. engineers hanging a bug from the Lions Gate
>Bridge.
>
>The City of Vancouver was somewhat upset when they stole the
>Nine O'Clock Gun one year (it sits at Brockton Point in Stanley
>Park and fires every night at 9 p.m.) - but on the other hand
>it gave them the opportunity to give the gun's foundation a
>much-needed rebuild.
ISTR a stunt (I do not remember who by) in which said gun was
loaded with rocks. When the gun was fired, it took out (or nearly did
so) a boat.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Peter Flass
The TSO editor seems to most closely resemble EDLIN. Why do you thonk
people used Wylbur, Panvalet, etc.?
jmfbahciv
do have sequence numbers, and then you edit the file with TECO,
do you want to have to keep them? To insert one line, you
have to space over to column 73 on your hardcopy TTY and edit the
new sequence number in.
/BAH
jmfbahciv
/BAH
jmfbahciv
I suspect that anything which could be put on cards had sequence numbers
implemented after the first 1000-card deck was dropped on the floor.
/BAH
Peter Flass
That's why the big diagonal line drawn across the top of the deck was
invented.
Charlie Gibbs
m...@panda.com (Mark Crispin) writes:
> On Sun, 27 Dec 2009, Charlie Gibbs posted:
>
>>>> The City of Vancouver was somewhat upset
>>>
>>> Your city fathers can't be all bad
>>
>> Yes, but that was a long time ago. It wasn't the same group of people
>> who recently passed a bylaw allowing them to enter anyone's premises
>> on 24 hours' notice for the purpose of removing any signs critical of
>> the Olympics.
>
> That's what happens when you let in a bunch of leftist Americans in
> order to thumb your national nose at the USA (as Canada did under
> Trudeau during the Vietnam era). They take up citizenship in your
> country, and then proceed to worm their way into public office.
> Then they use this power to create the socialist paradise (including
> prohibiting incorrect speech) they could never do in their home
> country.
That was more true in the '60s and '70s than it is now. Although
Canada's entire political spectrum is to the left of that of the
U.S., we've seen as much of a shift to the right as anyone else,
starting in the '80s. Brian Mulroney was as busy sucking up to
George H.W. Bush as he was siphoning money from the rest of us,
and our current prime minister is just as busy sucking up to the
States.
And history shows us that limits to free speech aren't unique to
the left or the right.
> Vancouver's city government is a good example, although I have
> observed these ex-Americans elsewhere in Canada. They're easy
> to spot; they're "more Canadian" than the native-born to the
> point of being aggressive.
Still, they're firmly in the back pocket of the real estate
developers.
> BC is actually a very nice place; and the further you get from the
> urbanized political correctness of Vancouver and Victoria the nicer
> it becomes. There's this sense of relief as the Trans-Canada Highway
> reaches Hope (a great name for that town), exits the freeway, and
> heads up the Fraser River valley towards the Cariboo and the real
> Canada.
Thanks for the kind words. I'm not nearly that far out; when I was
growing up the urban sprawl hadn't taken over nearly as much area
as it does now. We live in a society of contradictions; for instance,
Vancouver's policy for as long as I can remember has been to make
life miserable for anyone who dares to take a car downtown (as opposed
to making it advantageous to leave the car at home), while the provincial
government is building more and more roads leading to Vancouver proper.
Mind you, given a government that sees affordable housing prices as
a disaster, their anti-car sentiments are ignored by people who cannot
afford _not_ to commute from outlying areas where house prices are
lower.
Mark Crispin
>> That's what happens when you let in a bunch of leftist Americans in
>> order to thumb your national nose at the USA (as Canada did under
>> Trudeau during the Vietnam era).
Oh, I agree. Bill C-68 served as a huge wake-up call to rural Canadians,
although they remain far less organized (and effective) than their
American counterparts.
> Although
> Canada's entire political spectrum is to the left of that of the
> U.S., we've seen as much of a shift to the right as anyone else,
> starting in the '80s.
That's a Canadian perspective. From an American perspective, the current
Canadian leadership is somewhat like Clinton Democrats, and even a
majority Conservative government would not be much different.
Canada did not have anything like the Reagan Revolution of the 1980s nor
the Contract with America of the 1990s. Nor do I think that it is likely
that such a thing will happen in Canada; it's just not part of the
Canadian historical tradition or even the Canadian conservative tradition.
> Brian Mulroney was as busy sucking up to
> George H.W. Bush as he was siphoning money from the rest of us,
> and our current prime minister is just as busy sucking up to the
> States.
Pretty much everybody agrees that Mulroney was a disaster, for Canada, for
the Tories, and even for US/Canada relations. Just like GHWB, Mulroney
betrayed the conservative principles he pledged to uphold. There's also
evidence to suggest that he was a crook as well.
> And history shows us that limits to free speech aren't unique to
> the left or the right.
True; but the most vigorous attacks today come from the Left. At least
that is the case in the USA, and as far as I can tell also in Canada.
>> Vancouver's city government is a good example
> Still, they're firmly in the back pocket of the real estate
> developers.
Yup. I'm not at all surprised that they're trying to keep the scam going
in Canada after it collapsed in the USA.
These scammers are trying to hawk Canadian real estate (including but not
limited to vacation property) to Americans, not realizing that the few
Americans who are in a financial condition to buy will do due diligence.
Once they find out how much the prices have been jacked up, and what's in
the local bylaws, they back out pretty fast...
> Thanks for the kind words. I'm not nearly that far out; when I was
> growing up the urban sprawl hadn't taken over nearly as much area
> as it does now.
It's impossible to escape the creeping crud (e.g., the loony Left seems
quite settled in Whitehorse) no matter where you go, but the further north
you go, the better Canada becomes.
What's sad is how bad the economy has gotten in rural Canada. The Grits
and the LDP seem to be of the flavor of Left that only cares about the
cities, and dismisses "the idiocy of rural life." If their policy is to
empty the rural areas of their population, they couldn't do a better job
at implementing it than what they are doing now.
The modern Tories don't seem to be much better. When I read a Canadian
politician paying lip service to rural issues, and I can't tell whether
he's Tory or provincial LDP, it's a pretty stern indictment of the
Tories...
Many of the villages and small towns have become utterly dependent upon
the tourist trade, most of which is just passing through en route to
Alaska. It's sad to see once-vibrant places reduced to helplessness.
Charles Richmond
I do *not* understand why you asked that question. I did *not* use
Panvalet at my PPoE, because I was in software development and
*not* in the financial group (HSS). In college, I used WYLBUR
because it was the terminal interface to the IBM 370/155. The only
alternative was to use cards and batch jobs.
jmfbahciv
That only works with a box of cards. There were decks a lot larger than
that.
/BAH
Esra Sdrawkcab
wrote:
Eraly 80's would have seen the introduction of SPF and so SPFedit - a
fullscreen editor (the first that I used). Previously I would Edit a
program do a list 20 and change what test I liked in "fullscreen", then
submit each line with an "enter". Rinse and repeat.
--
Nuns! Reverse!
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
"Esra Sdrawkcab" <ad...@127.0.0.1> writes:
> Eraly 80's would have seen the introduction of SPF and so SPFedit - a
> fullscreen editor (the first that I used). Previously I would Edit a
> program do a list 20 and change what test I liked in "fullscreen",
> then submit each line with an "enter". Rinse and repeat.
in that time frame, one of the vaguries of showing profit and charging
for software ... it wasn't absolutely necessary to show profit in every
last sale; sometimes it was sufficient to show profit at organization
level. this resulted in some very strange marriages between "strategic"
products that couldn't price/charge to cover the fully loaded
organization costs ... and other products that had enormously large ROI.
One such marriage was VM370 performance products and ISPF ... VM
performance products had 3 people supporting (and once in this marriage
didn't get any more) and ISPF (both earned about the same revenue but
ISPF group had enormous number of people).
There were some number of other such (corporate product) "marriages"
... especially between various VM370 products ... that had been
originally done with one or very few number of people and various MVS
products that had been done with large hordes (that was more traditional
mainstream corporate approach)
slightly related recent thread:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009s.html#16 Why Coder Pay Isn't Proportional To Productivity
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009s.html#24 Why Coder Pay Isn't Proportional To Productivity
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009s.html#28 Why Coder Pay Isn't Proportional To Productivity
Gene Wirchenko
<fri...@tx.rr.com> wrote:
>Peter Flass wrote:
>> Mark Crispin wrote:
>>>
>>> Vancouver's city government is a good example, although I have
>>> observed these ex-Americans elsewhere in Canada. They're easy to
>>> spot; they're "more Canadian" than the native-born to the point of
>>> being aggressive.
>>
>> An "aggressive Canadian" sounds like an oxymoron, eh?
>
>They're all a bunch of "killer rabbits"!!! ;-)
It only takes one. See "Monty Python and the Holy Grail".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKtkMCBSfSA&feature=fvsr
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
posting from Kamloops, British Columbia, Canada
Peter Flass
That ws also later. The original editor was command-driven. Type some
lines, type in a command to change the current line, etc. Think vi or
sed. No fullscreen changes.
John Francis
Mike Ross <mi...@corestore.org> wrote:
>On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 18:27:22 +0000 (UTC), jo...@panix.com (John Francis) wrote:
>
>>In article <hgvjg...@news2.newsguy.com>, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv@aol> wrote:
>>>
>>>Kewl. Especially about no trace of how it got out. Reminds me of the
>>>story I heard of MIT putting a VW bug on top of the dome.
>>
>>Pre-dated (by many decades) by an Austin Seven appearing on the
>>roof of the Senate House (at Cambridge University).
>>
>>That, too, was a mystery for many years, although the story has
>>now been told (fifty years after the events occurred).
>
>Cambridge was fun, many possibilites for aquatic mayhem. I remember
>participating in punt jousting.
Didn't we all?
It filled in the daytime nicely until I could get some time on Titan
Dave Wade
"jmfbahciv" <jmfbahciv@aol> wrote in message
> Dave Wade wrote:
>>
>> "jmfbahciv" <jmfbahciv@aol> wrote in message
>> news:hgvjk...@news2.newsguy.com...
>>> Rich Alderson wrote:
>>>> Charles Richmond <fri...@tx.rr.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> I located the "Son of Stopgap" memo using Google on Tuesday afternoon
>>>>> (Dec. 22). I do *not* know anything about how SAILDART is structured.
>>>>> I searched on "Stopgap editor" or some such, and with "mousing
>>>>> around", found the term "SAILON-50.3". Searching on that with Google
>>>>> led me to the page with the memo.
>>>>
>>>> OK, thanks. Got it. It was gone for several months.
>>>>
>>>
>>> w.r.t. the subject header. There had to be a way for an
>>> on-line editor to be able to input line numbers of source
>>> files on cards and then ignore them. I suppose the same
>>> act of ignorance also had to be done by the compilers
>>> and interpreters.
>>
>> Generally cols 73-80 are reserved for sequence numbers... Note these are
>> not line numbers.
>>
> That was FORTRAN. BASIC used its sequence numbers as line numbers.
> If you were an experienced programmer, you numbered the line numbers
> by adding 10 or 100 and not 1.
>
> in a disk file. I'm wondering if the word containing the sequence
> number with bit 0 set would precede the word containing the <CRLF>
> or postcede the <CRLF>.
On an IBM box there were no <CR><LF> characters. If all the records are 80
bytes long you don't need them..
>
> /BAH
glen herrmannsfeldt
> records are 80 bytes long you don't need them..
For programs that actually do terminal I/O you need them.
Even better than ASCII, EBCDIC has CR, LF, and NL (new line) characters.
But yes, for normal file formats there no such characters. Either
fixed length records, or variable length with a length field.
-- glen
des...@verizon.net
> In alt.sys.pdp10 Dave Wade <g8...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> (snip)
>
>> On an IBM box there were no <CR><LF> characters. If all the
>> records are 80 bytes long you don't need them..
>
> For programs that actually do terminal I/O you need them.
Not on an IBM mainframe.
The original IBM 2260 CRT had a newline character to move to the
next line, but after that, nothing as simple as CR/LF was to be found.
The IBM 3270 has one of the most bizarre screen addressing mechanisms
imaginable.
> Even better than ASCII, EBCDIC has CR, LF, and NL (new line)
> characters.
Yes, but rarely usd. No effect on the original line printers at all.
I've seen a few ASCII printers attached to IBM mainframes that used line
feed and company but they're the exception rather than the rule.
The folks at IBM have a real talent for inventing devices with amazingly
complex protocols. I had occasion to learn PSF for the IBM 3820
printers. I'd like to know what the author was smoking.
Entering the UNIX world and seeing devices controlled with escape
sequences is a breath of fresh air.
glen herrmannsfeldt
(snip)
>> For programs that actually do terminal I/O you need them.
> Not on an IBM mainframe.
> The original IBM 2260 CRT had a newline character to move to the
> next line, but after that, nothing as simple as CR/LF was to be found.
> The IBM 3270 has one of the most bizarre screen addressing mechanisms
> imaginable.
>> Even better than ASCII, EBCDIC has CR, LF, and NL (new line)
>> characters.
> Yes, but rarely usd. No effect on the original line printers at all.
Well, you could probably map them as printable characters, but yes
they have no control function.
For printing terminals, such as the 2741, control characters
do apply. I believe the selectric typewriter printing mechanism
does a combined carriage return line feed, so that is what the
2741 does. It isn't EBCDIC but a code based on the print mechanism,
which is based on the position of characters on the type ball.
> I've seen a few ASCII printers attached to IBM mainframes that used line
> feed and company but they're the exception rather than the rule.
In the early years rare, but with the 3705, and later with more
powerful processors to control them, they were pretty common.
> The folks at IBM have a real talent for inventing devices with amazingly
> complex protocols. I had occasion to learn PSF for the IBM 3820
> printers. I'd like to know what the author was smoking.
> Entering the UNIX world and seeing devices controlled with escape
> sequences is a breath of fresh air.
-- glen
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
glen herrmannsfeldt <g...@ugcs.caltech.edu> writes:
> For printing terminals, such as the 2741, control characters
> do apply. I believe the selectric typewriter printing mechanism
> does a combined carriage return line feed, so that is what the
> 2741 does. It isn't EBCDIC but a code based on the print mechanism,
> which is based on the position of characters on the type ball.
regardless of the termianl, 1052, 2741, tty ... you would do cr &/or
combined cr/lf ... but you also needed to know how many characters that
had printed up until that point ... and the speed of carriage return
... so you would add transmission of enuf idles to allow the carriage to
get back to starting position ... so the carriage didn't start typing
characters before getting all the way back to left hand position.
This is part of presentation that I was giving ... including
at SNA architecture review board in Raleigh
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#67
and one of the more naive people in the Raleigh audience asked how could
a organization less than 1/10 the size of the NCP/pu4 (aka 37xx) group
could turn out something with so much more feature/function.
after the meeting ... the director running ARB caught me to ask who
had arraigned for me to make the presentation (he wasn't planning on
rewarding them).
slightly related x-over
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009s.html#16 Why Coder Pay Isn't Proportional To Productivity
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009s.html#24 Why Coder Pay Isn't Proportional To Productivity
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009s.html#28 Why Coder Pay Isn't Proportional To Productivity
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009s.html#41 Why Coder Pay Isn't Proportional To Productivity
misc. other recent posts mentioning above presentation:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009e.html#4 Cost of CPU Time
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009j.html#60 A Complete History Of Mainframe Computing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009k.html#70 An inComplete History Of Mainframe Computing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009l.html#3 VTAM security issue
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009l.html#66 ACP, One of the Oldest Open Source Apps
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009r.html#0 Small Server Mob Advantage
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009r.html#21 Small Server Mob Advantage
John Francis
Anne & Lynn Wheeler <ly...@garlic.com> wrote:
>
>regardless of the termianl, 1052, 2741, tty ... you would do cr &/or
>combined cr/lf ... but you also needed to know how many characters that
>had printed up until that point ... and the speed of carriage return
>... so you would add transmission of enuf idles to allow the carriage to
>get back to starting position ... so the carriage didn't start typing
>characters before getting all the way back to left hand position.
IBM were not alone in this - I remember code on the DEC-10 to add
some number of NULLs to allow time for the print head to get all
the way back to the LH margin. IIRC the amount of padding depended
on the baud rate as well as the type of terminal,
glen herrmannsfeldt
(snip)
> regardless of the termianl, 1052, 2741, tty ... you would do cr &/or
> combined cr/lf ... but you also needed to know how many characters that
> had printed up until that point ... and the speed of carriage return
> ... so you would add transmission of enuf idles to allow the carriage to
> get back to starting position ... so the carriage didn't start typing
> characters before getting all the way back to left hand position.
Yes, WYLBUR has parameters that set the required number of idle
characters, I believe as a constant plus a value per 10 columns
of carriage travel. Also for tabs. The 2741 has hardware tabs,
set and cleared by a control near the keyboard.
-- glen
joseph...@gmail.com
> In alt.sys.pdp10 Charles Richmond <friz...@tx.rr.com> wrote:
> (snip)
>
> > Ah, yes... Leland Stanford: he of the "Golden Spike", who could
> > *not* hit that spike a "good lick". I did *not* know about Leland
> > Stanford Junior; I always thought that Stanford was named after
> > Governor Stanford.
>
> And then there is:
>
> http://gate2wisdom.com/story-site-map.htm##cover
>
> -- glen
According to Stanford's own web page http://www.stanford.edu/about/history/
"The Stanfords visited several great universities of the East to
gather ideas. An urban legend, widely circulated on the Internet but
untrue, describes the couple as poorly-dressed country bumpkins who
decided to found their own university only after being rebuffed in
their offer to endow a building at Harvard. They did visit Harvard's
president but were well-received and given advice on starting a new
university in California."
Peter Flass
>
> and one of the more naive people in the Raleigh audience asked how could
> a organization less than 1/10 the size of the NCP/pu4 (aka 37xx) group
> could turn out something with so much more feature/function.
Did he get transferred to the Nome, Alaska branch after that?
Peter Flass
So if the output line included a TAB, you'd have to insert the maximum
number of idles on a return? Following a tab, the position of the print
head would be "undefined."
jmfbahciv
something had to wrap the lines on your hard-copy TTY. The
presentation to the human editor was even worse when the TTYs became
scopes.
/BAH
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
> Did he get transferred to the Nome, Alaska branch after that?
re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009s.html#51 DEC-10 SOS Editor Intra-Line Editing
i never did followup ... but during the presentation ... there was
about 40 people in the room ... about half were younger, appeared
eager and more interested in what I was talking about than what
they were having to work on ... the other half were older, appeared
to be much less technically oriented and didn't appear happy about
the response from the youngsters.
I was talking about working features that the youngsters possibly only
barely dreamed about ever existing ... and would have been nearly
impossible to do based on their existing NCP/PU4 implementation (would
need more powerful processor, and a layered infrastructure with more
internal feature/function).
During the presentation, I mentioned that more than a decade earlier
... science center reviewed "peachtree" (unannounced processor for
series/1) and pointed out that it was significantly better processor for
use in 3705 (than the one they chose ... which was going to represent a
feature/function inhibitor) ... however, while peachtree simplified
doing a lot of things (that 3705/3725 found nearly impossible) ... by
that point, even "peachtree" had been pushed just about to its limits
and something like move to 801/rios was needed to enable further
enhancements.
and as been referred to ... having an organization less than 1/10th the size of
NCP/pu4 group helped significantly.
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
I also mentioned that nearly two decades previously ... as undergraduate
and doing lots of modifications to cp67 at the univ. ... I had to add
TTY support to cp67. In that process, i tried to make the (then)
mainframe terminal controller ... do something that it couldn't quite
do. this helped motivate the univ. to start a "clone" controller effort,
reverse engineer the mainframe channel, and build a channel interface
board for Interdata/3 ... programmed to emulate the 2702 (but with
added feature/functio).
Later, four of us got written up as starting clone controller
business. A descendent of the box under Perkin/Elmer name (after PE
bought Interdata) was still being sold. misc. past posts mentioning
clone controller
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#360pcm
Pat Farrell
> Entering the UNIX world and seeing devices controlled with escape
> sequences is a breath of fresh air.
Devices controlled by escape sequences predated Unix by a lot. Remember
that in the official story about the invention of Unix, Kernigan and
Thomson say that they started Unix because their boss was too cheap to
get them a PDP-10.
As soon as terminals were smarter than a ASR 33, there were escape
sequences. I remember programming a daisey wheel printer on a PDP-10 KA
in the early 70s.
--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/
Quadibloc
> Peter Flass wrote:
> > That's why the big diagonal line drawn across the top of the deck was
> > invented.
>
> That only works with a box of cards. There were decks a lot larger than
> that.
Then you put one diagonal line across the first box, two lines close
together across the second box, two lines further apart across the
third box, three lines close together across the fourth box, two lines
close together followed by one spaced further away across the fifth
box, and so on...
do I really have to spell this out for you?
John Savard
Quadibloc
wrote:
Which is much more sensible (variable length with a length field). The
DEC VAX and Alpha VMS systems also used this scheme.
This way, you could print a floating point number in A4 format in the
middle of a line, secure in the knowledge that regardless of its
value, where the line ends and how long it is will not be changed.
Also, since it enforces a maximum length inherently, buffer overflow
goes away as a problem.
John Savard
Quadibloc
> And the 360 came after. Humans were suspicious of "invisible"
> card decks. Retraining people who were used to the real cards
> was long and painful.
The way to fix that is simple enough.
Make sure the computerized blackjack machines are manufactured by
licensed companies not connected with the casinos, and frequently
inspected and certified by government inspectors.
John Savard
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv@aol> writes:
> And the 360 came after. Humans were suspicious of "invisible"
> card decks. Retraining people who were used to the real cards
> was long and painful.
claim that it is one of the things for the spreadsheet metaphor uptake
... since it had familiar row&columns from paper accounting
... effectively each row is a "card".
it has been suggested that row&column table metaphor helped (eventually)
contribute to RDBMS uptake ... but may also contribute to forcing
computer applications into limitations associated with such row&column
structured metaphor (trouble dealing with things that don't naturally
fit into such a table orientation ... table as a pile of cards ... with
each card having the same structure).
Charlie Gibbs
(John Francis) writes:
And it wasn't limited to hardcopy terminals. Univac's Uniscope
series of CRT terminals needed up to 20 milliseconds to do operations
involving the entire screen, such as deleting the first line and
letting the remainder scroll up. So following such an operation,
you had to insert padding - 20 NULs if you were running at 9600 bps.
--
/~\ cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
John Francis
Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>In article <hhek5k$a5o$1...@reader1.panix.com>, jo...@panix.com
>(John Francis) writes:
>
>> In article <m3hbr9p...@garlic.com>,
>> Anne & Lynn Wheeler <ly...@garlic.com> wrote:
>>
>>> regardless of the termianl, 1052, 2741, tty ... you would do cr &/or
>>> combined cr/lf ... but you also needed to know how many characters
>>> that had printed up until that point ... and the speed of carriage
>>> return ... so you would add transmission of enuf idles to allow the
>>> carriage to get back to starting position ... so the carriage didn't
>>> start typing characters before getting all the way back to left hand
>>> position.
>>
>> IBM were not alone in this - I remember code on the DEC-10 to add
>> some number of NULLs to allow time for the print head to get all
>> the way back to the LH margin. IIRC the amount of padding depended
>> on the baud rate as well as the type of terminal,
>
>And it wasn't limited to hardcopy terminals. Univac's Uniscope
>series of CRT terminals needed up to 20 milliseconds to do operations
>involving the entire screen, such as deleting the first line and
>letting the remainder scroll up. So following such an operation,
>you had to insert padding - 20 NULs if you were running at 9600 bps.
Thanks for tickling the old memory neurons. I was pretty sure 9600
baud figure into it somewhere, but the exact details eluded me - I
knew I'd never used a 9600 baud hardcopy terminal. But your message
made me think of the storage tube displays we had on the first DEC-10
I worked on - a couple of Adage ARDS-1s, supplemented later by some
Tektronix 4010s (and eventually even a 4014, I believe). They had
pretty slow beam positioning, and were hooked up at 9600 baud.
glen herrmannsfeldt
(snip)
> So if the output line included a TAB, you'd have to insert the maximum
> number of idles on a return? Following a tab, the position of the print
> head would be "undefined."
The way tabs work with WYLBUR is that you use the SET TABS command
to tell it where the tabs are, and then tabs are sent instead
of multiple spaces. Tabs are normally not stored in the file.
The standard WYLBUR file format compresses out blanks, so it doesn't
cost much in disk space. (Unlike TSO, which normally stores file
as card image fixed length records.) You can use tabs on input
(column 7 is convenient for Fortran programs), and to speed up the
printing commands.
When the file is submitted as a batch job, it is converted as required,
normally to card image format. Unlike DEC, the compilers don't accept
tabs on input.
-- glen
ArarghMai...@not.at.arargh.com
The Hazeltine 2000 terminals (early 70s) were like that. Needed 6
NULs for a several different operations @ 9600 baud.
--
ArarghMail912 at [drop the 'http://www.' from ->] http://www.arargh.com
BCET Basic Compiler Page: http://www.arargh.com/basic/index.html
To reply by email, remove the extra stuff from the reply address.
Charles Richmond
What about X-ON and X-OFF??? Or CTS and RTS??? Why did the
terminal *not* send an X-OFF, do the carriage return, and then do
an X-ON???
--
+----------------------------------------+
| Charles and Francis Richmond |
| |
| plano dot net at aquaporin4 dot com |
+----------------------------------------+