My Story and Some Ethical Questions
LonelyMe33
Hi all,
Three weeks ago I had intimate relations for the first time in 18 months,
since being divorced. I ignored the obvious signs of my partners years or
prior promiscuity and consequently shortly after was diagnosed as having
Herpes Simplex Type-2 (HSV2). My doctor put me on FAMVIR ( famciclovir -
the newest anti-viral drug which reduces the symptoms and speeds up
heeling) immediately. Three tablets (500mg) a day, for five days. God
bless my good health insurance policy, the five day dose of medication
costs about $80.
I m hoping that I m the small minority of cases which never have a second
flare-up. I m allowed to believe that for now! However, subsequent
flare-up s would require the same medication and dose. I know at this time
no one can say if and how often flare-ups will occur. It s been only three
days since my diagnosis and I feel I already have gained a wealth of
knowledge regarding the subject. That s just my way. God bless the
internet for information and education.
Currently, I feeling depressed, something I once took extreme pride in not
experiencing - something that I am capable of overcoming. However, I need
to experience the depression for awhile before I can build a defense
against it. Or maybe I want to punish myself for letting this happen to
me. I had the option to refrain - I knew the possible consequences - I
even preached safety to others. I will overcome all those things in time.
(depending upon its physical effect on me - how often I get flare-ups, I
guess)
That s the short version of my story. There is another part that includes
the partner I acquired this from and my mixed and very confused feelings
for her.
The point of my message is actually ethical questions that I m hoping the
sympathetic people who read this could help me with. They are as follows:
1) Do I tell each doctor or specialist I come in contact with for other
medical reasons that I have Herpes? When they ask if I have any illnesses,
do I respond and say "yes, I have Herpes Simplex Type-2" or do I say "No,
nothing".
.
2) When do I tell a girl friend that I have Herpes? Before I even start
dating her so I don t lead her down a road that will force her in a
predicament that may cause her pain? How can I do that to someone?
3) If I do date, do I kiss a girl friend before I tell her? There is
always a chance she could contract the disease, even though it may be
small when nothing is visible - isn t it the honorable thing to do? - warn
her of the potentiality of contraction, regardless of its magnitude?
4) Do I just limit my relationships to girls who also have the virus? I
guess through support or match making groups?
5) Do I tell any family members? I don t know why I should, but I feel as
if I m holding back something about my medical situation?
6) Although I have HSV2, what happens if I get a breakout in a visible
location and someone close to me asks what it is? Do I lie?
These are my preliminary questions that I hope to get responses to. I m
sure I will have more as I become more educated on the matter.
Thanks in advance for your compassion!
A1635z
I am sorry that you have contracted herpes. I believe that the best
approach is to be honest but to use discretion. Any potential sexual
partners should know ahead of time that you have herpes. True it may
result in less frequent sexual contacts and perhaps some painful
rejections, but having herpes I know that it is unethical to transmit it
and I would not want to inflict it on anyone else. I don't think that
family members need to know unless you feel that they would be supportive.
No one ever said that family members need to know everything about other
family members. If you should get an outbreak that is on a part of your
body that is visible, you can tell people or let them guess or tell them
it is something else. It is your choice, the only time that I believe you
should tell is if you are in a position of transmitting the virus. (For
example, you have it on you lips and someone wants to give you a kiss,
telling is the ethical approach.)
RRosieJ
Hello lonleyme,
My sympathy to you for contracting this annoying disease and currently
feeling like s**t about it. You've come to the right place for help
sorting things out. You'll get a variety of responses here, but I doubt
that any of them will provide information that will make you feel worse
than you do now. Most likely, you'll start feeling alot better. I'd like
to address a few of the things that you brought up in your posting:
In article <19970111212...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
lonel...@aol.com wrote:
>I ignored the obvious signs of my partners years or
>prior promiscuity and consequently shortly after was diagnosed as having
>Herpes Simplex Type-2 (HSV2).
Whatever signs you read in your partner, you can't judge a book by it's
cover. Unless you are a virgin and your partner is a virgin there is some
possibility that one of you already has genital HSV (whether contagious at
the time or not). This organism has no sense of morality. It is entirely
opportunistic and does not pick and choose who it comes to live with. You
could have been intimate with a "nice, respectable, clean, good" woman who
would never knowingly allow transmission and still get it. Read the
statistics. Most people who have HSV aren't aware of it. While I do
believe that it is important to take precautions of various sorts before
diving headlong into sexual contact these days, stop beating yourself up
because you didn't refrain from sex with this woman. Please try to
separate out your feelings about her in general from the fact that you
probably picked up HSV from her (very small chance you already had it in
your system and your strong emotions about the situation provoked the
outbreak).
>I m hoping that I m the small minority of cases which never have a second
>flare-up.
I hope you are too. But if you aren't, it won't be the end of the world,
you'll deal with it. Sorry if that sounds flip and callous, but again,
don't identify with the disease. People have many conditions/diseases
which sometimes prevent them from engaging in sexual contact, but because
this one is sexually transmitted and people have hangups about sex a moral
judgement is passed. Also, keep reading this newsgroup and browsing
around for information. There are more ways of dealing with this
condition than the latest and greatest pharmaceuticals. If the Famvir
works for you and you're happy with it, fine. Otherwise, look into the
other routes people are taking.
>However, I need to experience the depression for awhile before I can
>build a defense against it. <
I truly feel very bad for you that you are experiencing depression over
this right now. I beat myself up for a long time about it before finding
this newsgroup and developing a new viewpoint. You've already done the
most important step towards working this out -- sharing with others.
However, I don't think it's necessary to share this information with
everyone, like your family, for instance. You've got to pick and chose
based on what you might get out of letting someone else know about it.
One of my siblings and my closest friends know because they are supportive
of me and will listen if I need to discuss my frustrations about this and
other subjects. I haven't told my other siblings or my father because it
would add nothing to our relationship, and might actually make relations
more awkward (because it is sexually related). I would not tell people I
work with or casual friends, etc. because something so personal is simply
none of their business and I would not want to be labeled in someone's
mind as "the one who has herpes". So I guess the defining factor is that
I wouldn't discuss it with someone with whom I'd not discuss other aspects
of my sex life. My gynecologist knows, but my GP doesn't (I'm not using
anti-viral medications).
>Do I just limit my relationships to girls who also have the virus?<
Please! This organism does not deserve to be the defining factor in how
you lead your personal life. While it is possible that you might find the
love of your life through a herpes-related matchmaking group, you also
might find her elsewhere. She might have herpes and not belong to one of
those things, or not know she has it. She might not have herpes, but not
think it's such a big deal. The possibilities are endless, don't limit
yourself.
>I feel as if I m holding back something about my medical situation?<
Herpes is not life-threatening. It is an annoyance. If you had excema
(sorry if that's spelled wrong) on a covered part of your body, would you
make a point of telling everyone about it? Would it affect anyone but
you? If you were having a medical emergency would it affect your care and
treatment? NO.
Sorry I've been so long-winded. I guess my 2 cents turned into something
like $2.00.
Best of luck to you,
Rena
Lowdevil
Lonel...@aol.com asked:
>The point of my message is actually ethical questions that I m hoping the
>sympathetic people who read this could help me with. They are as follows:
>1) Do I tell each doctor or specialist I come in contact with for other
>medical reasons that I have Herpes? When they ask if I have any
illnesses,
>do I respond and say "yes, I have Herpes Simplex Type-2" or do I say "No,
>nothing".
This is a very good question. I would say one needs to decide that
depending on the situation. For instance...your personal doctor
prescribing you medication for something...yes. A physical exam for
employment...no. An exam for insurance purposes....I would think yes, but
I'm interested in what others think about that.
>4) Do I just limit my relationships to girls who also have the virus? I
>guess through support or match making groups?
I would say do not limit yourself. The more you read this group, you
will see how well things can work out with one pos and one neg partner.
There are obvious advantages dating someone who already has it, but that
is only one avenue to explore.
>5) Do I tell any family members? I don t know why I should, but I feel as
>if I m holding back something about my medical situation?
I told family members and friends and now sometimes wish I hadn't. I
was looking for support at the time and found it. I've now outgrown the
support, and wonder if I'm looked at differently than before. I think I'm
still seen in the same way as before, and feel pretty lucky about it.
>6) Although I have HSV2, what happens if I get a breakout in a visible
>location and someone close to me asks what it is? Do I lie?
The best route is to avoid being asked a question of that nature. If
you are someone who does not lie about other things, there is no reason to
start now. Most often, lies turn out worse than the truth no matter what
the circumstance.
The depression and what if questions won't last a whole long time.
Eventually things will get better and you will find you are still the same
person you always were. If you have not already, I would suggest you get
tested for HIV very soon.
I made things much harder on myself by not doing so for several months
after my diagnosis.
casa...@frontiernet.net
Hi,
I'm sorry to hear that yet another victem has joined our ranks. I am sympathetic to your plight and feelings,
but I fear that you, and many others, may not care for my answers to your ethical questions.
> 1) Do I tell each doctor or specialist I come in contact with for other
> medical reasons that I have Herpes? When they ask if I have any illnesses,
> do I respond and say "yes, I have Herpes Simplex Type-2" or do I say "No,
> nothing".
No, only your urologist, and maybe your GP. You may also want to consider telling if you require surgery,
since this will flare up when your system is weakest.
> 2) When do I tell a girl friend that I have Herpes? Before I even start
> dating her so I don t lead her down a road that will force her in a
> predicament that may cause her pain? How can I do that to someone?
Don't tell until you know you can trust her to keep it a secret, even if she ends up hating you.
> 3) If I do date, do I kiss a girl friend before I tell her? There is
> always a chance she could contract the disease, even though it may be
> small when nothing is visible - isn t it the honorable thing to do? - warn
> her of the potentiality of contraction, regardless of its magnitude?
Where were you infected? If the infection site is on your genitals, you can kiss her without putting her at
risk. If it's on your mouth... Well, nearly everyone has type 1 on their mouth.
> 4) Do I just limit my relationships to girls who also have the virus? I
> guess through support or match making groups?
That would be the most ethical thing to do. That or never have sex again. You do not have to limit yourself
to the services though. Statistically there's something like a 1 in 5 chance that when you tell someone,
she'll say "me too."
I think it is highly unethical to ever have sex with an uninfected person. (I've done it, and hate myself for
it. Also couldn't enjoy it because I was terrified I was spreading this curse)
There's really no such thing as informed consent. Are you going to tell her that herpes will put any children
she has (after being infected of course) at increased risk of blindness, retardation, and death if they are
infected in utero(sp?) or during delivery? Are you going to tell her that she will be at increased risk for
cervical cancer? Can you live with yourself putting someone in that situation. Can you live yourself if you
cause someone else to feel the way you're feeling now?
And remember, even if you never have another outbreak you are still ethically and legally required to inform
any sexual partners you may have. There are cases of people being successfully sued for medical expenses and
pain and suffering as a result of failure to inform. (I might be able to locate the case reference for the
skeptics out there, don't have it handy at the moment)
> 5) Do I tell any family members? I don t know why I should, but I feel as
> if I m holding back something about my medical situation?
No. But when visiting, be careful about leaving wet towels around after showering. I've heard that the virus
can live on damp towels for a time (no idea how long, or even if it's true, but why take chances)
> 6) Although I have HSV2, what happens if I get a breakout in a visible
> location and someone close to me asks what it is? Do I lie?
If it's visible, and on your mouth, call it a cold sore. That's honest, with no stigma. If it is elsewhere,
put some topical acyclovier in it and cover it with a bandage. If anyone asks, it's a skin condition. Also
honest. and by covering it, you don't risk accidental spreading. Probably want to leave it open to the air
when your alone though.
It can spread some, but usually not far from the original site. Try using a blow drier on affected areas
during outbreaks. it might help keep it from speading.
>
> These are my preliminary questions that I hope to get responses to. I m
> sure I will have more as I become more educated on the matter.
>
> Thanks in advance for your compassion!
Good luck!
Casandra
AJanvier
Dear Casandra,
I have read your response to a man how found out thst he just got herpes
and I am socked at your response.
>(There's really no such thing as informed consent. Are you going to tell
her that >herpes will put any children
>she has (after being infected of course) at increased risk of blindness,
>retardation, and death if they are
>infected in utero(sp?) or during delivery? Are you going to tell her
that she will >be at increased risk for
>cervical cancer? Can you live with yourself putting someone in that
situation. >Can you live yourself if you
>cause someone else to feel the way you're feeling now?
>And remember, even if you never have another outbreak you are still
ethically >and legally required to inform
>any sexual partners you may have. There are cases of people being
>successfully sued for medical expenses and
>pain and suffering as a result of failure to inform. (I might be able to
locate the >case reference for the
>skeptics out there, don't have it handy at the moment)
I am a woman who has herpes. I have had it for a bout 2 1/2 years now...
From what you wrote. You are making it seem that all women who have
herpes sould be worried about dying from cervical cancer in a couple of
years. Because they have this virus. Not true.. herpes does not cause
cervical cancer if that was the case then all women with HSV2 should be
jumping out of buildings.
Also you are wrong about child birth... At the time that you are pregant
you should tell your doctor that you have herpes and they will monter it.
If you are having an out break during delievery then the doctor will do a
c-section causing the child (about to be born) to be born herpes free.
Also that child has developed antibodies of the virus from being inside of
you. IF YOU HAVE HERPES YOU CAN HAVE CHILDREN.
I can see from you response that you are very angry that you have this. I
have dated guys who knew I had herpes and theyagree to sleep with me. I
believe that you shouldn't limit yourself to dating people who only have
the virus.
That is all I have to say
Ali
PS: Have you read the Book Managing Herpes?
casa...@frontiernet.net
AJanvier wrote:
>
> Dear Casandra,
>
> I have read your response to a man how found out thst he just got herpes
> and I am socked at your response.
Argyle or plain?
>
> >(There's really no such thing as informed consent. Are you going to tell
> her that >herpes will put any children
> >she has (after being infected of course) at increased risk of blindness,
> >retardation, and death if they are
> >infected in utero(sp?) or during delivery? Are you going to tell her
> that she will >be at increased risk for
> >cervical cancer? Can you live with yourself putting someone in that
> situation. >Can you live yourself if you
> >cause someone else to feel the way you're feeling now?
>
> >And remember, even if you never have another outbreak you are still
> ethically >and legally required to inform
> >any sexual partners you may have. There are cases of people being
> >successfully sued for medical expenses and
> >pain and suffering as a result of failure to inform. (I might be able to
> locate the >case reference for the
> >skeptics out there, don't have it handy at the moment)
>
> I am a woman who has herpes. I have had it for a bout 2 1/2 years now...
> >From what you wrote. You are making it seem that all women who have
> herpes sould be worried about dying from cervical cancer in a couple of
> years. Because they have this virus. Not true..
You are wrong. And you are obviously believing what you want to believe. There is a statistically significant
increase in the rate of cervical cancer in women with herpes than in women who do not have the virus.
I am assuming this is a lifetime rate. Much as not having children prior to age 35 increases the risk of
breask cancer.
> herpes does not cause
> cervical cancer if that was the case then all women with HSV2 should be
> jumping out of buildings.
As far as I'm concerned having this virus is more than enough cause to commit suicide. And NO ONE EVER HAS THE
RIGHT TO INFECT ANOTHER PERSON. INFORMED OR NOT! EVER! Suicide is one ethical respone to the diagnosis.
> Also you are wrong about child birth... At the time that you are pregant
> you should tell your doctor that you have herpes and they will monter it.
No I'm not. I stated that there is an increased risk of these things happenning, not that they would happen
with absolute certainty. Further, many doctors will refuse to do a c-section in spite of the fact that viral
shedding can start between the time the culture is taken and labor begins.
> If you are having an out break during delievery then the doctor will do a
> c-section causing the child (about to be born) to be born herpes free.
2 words. Asymptomatic shedding! The baby CAN be infected, just like a partner can be infected, even if you
aren't showing symptoms.
> Also that child has developed antibodies of the virus from being inside of
> you. IF YOU HAVE HERPES YOU CAN HAVE CHILDREN.
there are several reputable web sites explaining the _risks_ to the child when the mother has this disease. I
believe one is from the March of Dimes, another is the centers for Disease Control.
>
> That is all I have to say
Educate yourself, if you dare. The FACTS are unpleasant.
>
> Ali
>
> PS: Have you read the Book Managing Herpes?
What is the copyright date? Anything prior to the early 90's is likely outdated.
haf...@aol.com
In article <32DC74...@frontiernet.net>, casa...@frontiernet.net
writes:
>As far as I'm concerned having this virus is more than enough cause to
commit
>suicide. And NO ONE EVER HAS THE RIGHT TO INFECT ANOTHER PERSON.
INFORMED OR NOT! EVER! Suicide is one ethical respone to the diagnosis.
OK enough of this hysteria.
To all new and relatively new readers of this newsgroup:
This is an EXTREME opinion and NOT representative of the vast majority of
people who have herpes. Please keep in mind that we never hear from the
millions for whom herpes is such a minor nuisance, and who have it in such
healthy perspective, that they don't find it necessary to even read or
post here.
I've had it for over ten years. Life goes on. Your love life goes on.
I've *never* once been rejected because of it. I've *never* transmitted
it. I'm responsible and ethical and totally honest but I *don't* make
decisions for other adults.
I'm not going to make assumptions or accusations about people's feelings
and motives here. I'm just going to ask that we try and keep some
perspective, and remember that every day someone who has just been
diagnosed with herpes logs on to this group in need of support, not a
message of doom.
I'll say it again to the new people: the ones you don't hear from here are
the ones who are FINE and are going about the business of living their
lives pretty much the same way they did before they got this dumb virus.
*Please* know that!
Spratman 7
Casandra wrote
>As far as I'm concerned having this virus is more than enough cause to
commit suicide. And NO ONE EVER HAS >THE RIGHT TO INFECT ANOTHER PERSON.
INFORMED OR NOT! EVER! Suicide is one ethical respone to the diagnosis.
Speaking as someone whose been to that edge, herpes is pretty low on my
list of reasons to commit suicide. Would a cold sore be enough to die for?
It's this kind of thinking that created leper colonies.
You're blowing this whole thing way outa proportion. If it wasn't for the
sexual stigma attached to herpes, I doubt it would rate anywhere near the
attention it gets. Probably somewhere along the lines of having athletes
foot.
As far as increasing the chances of getting cervical cancer, EVERTHING
increases the chance of getting cancer. Breathing increases the chance of
getting cancer. Living on Long Island increases breast cancer rates by
like 30%, you don't see people in a mass exodus. And if you are pregnant
and your Dr. refuses to do a C-section because of your fears concerning
herpes, get another Doctor simple, end of problem. Most Doc are more tham
happy to do a C-section. Helluva alot easier for them.
It's not like we've got AIDs and passing it along is signing a death
warrant. At this point in my life I'm begining to think that working the
night shift is bigger detriment to my social life than having herpes. Sure
it sucks, it sucks in a major way but it's not like its the end of your
life. If we'd all follow your example 20% of the population would be
throwing themselves of a cliff like lemmings. Or maybe huddling in caves
in some God forsaken "Herpes Colony".
'til then
Jon " Yea I got herpes, you got a problem with that?" Spratlin
BellaLune
In article <32DC74...@frontiernet.net>, casa...@frontiernet.net wrote:
> AJanvier wrote:
> >
> > Dear Casandra,
> >
> > herpes does not cause
> > cervical cancer if that was the case then all women with HSV2 should be
> > jumping out of buildings.
>
> As far as I'm concerned having this virus is more than enough cause to
commit suicide. And NO ONE EVER HAS THE
> RIGHT TO INFECT ANOTHER PERSON. INFORMED OR NOT! EVER! Suicide is one
ethical respone to the diagnosis.
>
Oy Vey!!!
Heads up Girlie, you have an attitude problem, esp if your on a SUPPORT
Newsgroup and if you feel suicidal because of this disease, you might need
to look into counseling. I'm not flaming here, I had to get some
counseling at 1st ( 8 yrs ago), because I forgot that I was *NOT* the
disease, the disease is a minute part of who I am , and causes a minor
inconveince, that's all.
Having Herpes is NOT a reason to commit suicide, how much more wasteful
can you get? or dramatic? I mean really it's ONLY herpes, you can still
have children, have lovers ( and not infect them ), have a career, be
whoever you want to be. Tell me where in the Herpes rulebook that says
you have to stop living!
And you know what? One year a few years back my pap smear came back
positive, it happens. And you know what else? If I had to get a
hysteroctomy or a masectomy it still wouldnt be cause for suicide because
I am NOT my uterus or my breasts. I am a person, not just parts.
Look this newsgroup is for people who need some support, if you feel you
cant be positive in some aspects or maybe you could at least try not to
scare the newbies? I'm sure they're freaked as it is, and to read your
above statement is not conducive to good mental health.
Also a group of us gals who have herpes have a women only support thread,
email me if you would like to participate in it. It might be useful to
work thru some of your negative feelings that way, we're willing to help.
Bella
--
http://www.isp.net/~bellalun/
I have seen the True Path. I will not
warm myself by the fire ~ I will become The Flame.
Jackie Bilodeau
>Also a group of us gals who have herpes have a women only support thread,
>email me if you would like to participate in it. It might be useful to
>work thru some of your negative feelings that way, we're willing to help.
>Bella
>--
>http://www.isp.net/~bellalun/
>I have seen the True Path. I will not
>warm myself by the fire ~ I will become The Flame.
Hi Bella
I completely agree with your statement to Cassandra. I'll love to be part of
your woman only support group. Please email me information at jy...@psu.edu.
Cassandra the only thing I can say is that you need to education yourself a
bit more before making such false statements. I have herpes, also have a
great bf. He loves me so much and realized that the herpes is only a part of
me. I'm sure if you find someone that loves you truly, it won't matter to
them if you have 2 heads.
I sincerely hope that your not considering suicide over something so minuet.
jackie
casa...@frontiernet.net
Let me see if I can cover everyone's complaints...
Someone asked for opinions on the ethics of having this disease. All opinions. Not just little Mary
Sunshine's. I posted _my_ opinion. I never claimed it was representative of the majority. I am assuming this
person will read all opinions, weigh the arguments, and try to balance whatever (s)he conclusions arrives at
with his/her own code of ethics.
I did not, as AJanvier accused me of, claim that it CAUSES cervical cancer. I said it increased the risk. If
someone can point me to a reputable web site or medical journal that refutes this, please do so. I'm sure such
and article would be of interest to the entire group.
I also stated there is a risk that a woman who has herpes can infect her child during delivery, with tragic
consequences. I did NOT state that it was a certainty. I said it was a risk. It is an added risk that the
woman would not have to face if she did not carry the virus. It is information that could affect a woman's
decision to have sex with an infected partner. She has a right to that information before she decides to
expose herself to an incurable disease.
To the person who told me that I needed to be better informed, again, if you have reliable information refuting
the above, by all means please post. I could use some good news.
As for committing suicide, I don't think it's wasteful to die rather than risk hurting another human being.
[Of course my attitudes on death and suicide don't fit the societal norms either. A person's life is worth
only what that person decides it is worth. If someone decides they are garbage and wants to commit suicide,
that is their right to do so. It doesn't matter if it's because they have an ingrown toenail. It's their
decision. Not society's, not the government.]
For those who suggested counselling. Been there, done that. I'm still diseased. I still think it's wrong to
risk hurting other people to fulfill your own selfish sexual needs.
Jackie commented that if I find someone who really loves me "it won't matter if I 2 heads." Perhaps it won't
matter to him, but I that exposing someone to an incurable disease is a pretty rotten way of saying "I love
you." How I could I ever risk causing someone I loved the kind of physical and emotional pain I have been
through? I did try once. I was married for awhile to someone who wasn't infected (luckily he is still
uninfected). I was always terrified that I would give it to him. No matter how careful we were, the fear was
always there. There has been much discussion in this ng that no precautions are 100%. That fear, and his
refusal to discuss it, contributed in a big way to the break up of our marriage.
Jon, I disagree with you that I'm blowing out it of proportion. If it were only me, and my discomfort, my
pain, well then yes, big deal. But it's not. I just don't want to hurt anyone else, not a lover, and most
certainly not an innocent baby. I don't understand why everyone is getting on my case just because I don't
want anyone else hurt!
We've corresponded privately, you know how desperately I want children. Do you also understand how terrified I
am? I'm scared that someday, if I am lucky enough to get pregnant, my child might be harmed because I was
stupid when I was 18 years old? Can you even begin to imagine? I know the risk is small, but it is THERE.
That matters to me. It frightens me.
haf...@aol.com wrote:
> I've *never* once been rejected because of it. Lucky you! I had one man run, (literally run!) away from me when I told him. I also had a college roommate
move out on me because she was afraid(!) she could get it just by being in the same room with me.
> I've *never* transmitted it. Me either.
> I'm responsible and ethical and totally honest but I *don't* make
> decisions for other adults.
Fine. But I don't believe that absolves you of your participation. Even if the other person is well informed,
you are making a decision to put that person at risk of an incurable disease. You are participating in putting
that person at risk. That is YOUR decision.
> Please keep in mind that we never hear from the
> millions for whom herpes is such a minor nuisance, and who have it in such
> healthy perspective, that they don't find it necessary to even read or
> post here.
These are also the people who are playing down and, in some cases, spreading it to people like me who _are_
hurt by it.
For me, in my experience, having herpes has been a horrible way to live. Put away your flame throwers, I KNOW
this is only my experience. I know OTHER people have happy, fulfilling lives despite of the virus. Good for
them. I'm not one of them. I wish I was. I wish I could just be a hard *ss and say, "tough luck, you knew I
had it when you got in bed with me." Well, maybe I don't wish that. I'd probably be a lot happier, but at
what cost? In any event, that's not how I am. I do care if I hurt someone else. I do not want to propagate
this disease. Why are you all acting like I'm some kind of monster just because I don't want anyone else
hurt???
When there's a cure, or even a vaccine, my attitude will change.
> I'm not going to make assumptions or accusations about people's feelings
> and motives here. I'm just going to ask that we try and keep some
> perspective, and remember that every day someone who has just been
> diagnosed with herpes logs on to this group in need of support, not a
> message of doom.
Silly me. I thought this was a forum for the open and honest exchanges of ideas. It seems not. Be happy, be
up beat, conform to the majority opinion or be flamed. Doesn't sound very supportive to me.
In closing...
Yes, my attitudes toward this disease are extreme. I suspect that has much to do with the fact that I was
diagnosed before AIDS came on the scene. At that time, herpes was THE sexual plague. It also didn't help that
not long after I told the person who infected me that he had infected me, he started pressuring me to marry
him. It was very romantic. "You might as well marry me. No one else will ever want you." I was 18,
frightened and alone. I have been dealing with it alone ever since. That is, until I started participating in
this so-called support group. I've shed many tears reading this ng. Some cathartic, some just reliving
painful memories. It would seem that I am being asked/told to go back to being alone.
Yes? No?
Casandra
PRPedersen
>> I did not, as AJanvier accused me of, claim that it CAUSES cervical
cancer. I said it increased the risk.
Cause, increase the risk, IT'S THE SAME THING. But you've neglected to
mention the truth, which is, SOME studies have demonstrated that there is
a correlation between herpes infections and cervical cancer. NO CAUSAL
EFFECT HAS BEEN SHOWN. Could well be that people who catch whatever causes
cervical cancer (or have a predisposition to develop cervical cancer) are
also more likely to catch herpes (or have a predisposition, etc.).
You also neglected to mention just how much correlation was found. It
wasn't all that big, was it?
> As for committing suicide, I don't think it's wasteful to die rather
than risk hurting another human being.
I have the flu. Think I'll kill myself now, before I give it to someone.
>> exposing someone to an incurable disease
Yeah, it's incurable. So what? I'd rather have herpes than some "curable"
diseases. Why do you always accentuate the negative?? You have a lot worse
problems than herpes, and your problems are not in your genitals.
>> I know the risk is small, but it is THERE. That matters to me. It
frightens me.
Worrying about insignificant risks is a sign of personality disorder. You
need to get some help with this. I'm not joking.
>> I had one man run, (literally run!) away from me when I told him.
The faster, the better. Good riddance.
>> I also had a college roommate move out on me because she was afraid(!)
she could get it just by being in the same room with me.
Ditto.
> having herpes has been a horrible way to live
Your problems have less to do with herpes than you think.
>> I do care if I hurt someone else... I do not want to propagate this
disease.
We all feel the same.
>> When there's a cure, or even a vaccine, my attitude will change.
I doubt it. Unless you change your outlook on life, you'll certainly find
something else to be miserable about.
You're a very, very confused person. You need to rethink a lot of things.
>> I've shed many tears reading this ng. Some cathartic, some just
reliving painful memories. It would seem that I am being asked/told to go
back to being alone. Yes? No?
Of course not. But lighten up! On yourself especially.
RRosieJ
Hi Casandra,
I'm sorry that some of the postings dissenting with your viewpoint have
turned into personal attacks. You don't deserve that. And you are right
in thinking that this newsgroup is a forum where *all* points of view may
be presented. I guess that some of the things you have to say really push
people's buttons because they sound a lot like the uninformed,
stereotyping, alarmist ideas that much of the general public has about
herpes and the people who have it. For anyone who has found this
newsgroup to be a place where they could get information that would help
them reclaim their self-esteem and normalize their lives your words might
be a reminder of the self-destructive extremist kind of thinking that they
are trying to leave behind.
I'd like to ask you one question: have you ever considered that there
might be someone out there who really loves you, in the most profound
sense of the word, not just sexually, for whom being deprived of having a
loving, intimate relationship with you would be a far, far worse fate than
contracting herpes?
Rena
PRPedersen
>> There is a statistically significant
Do you know what the term "statistically significant" means? Get a clue.
>> having this virus is more than enough cause to commit suicide.
I take this to be your defining statement. What a jerk.
>> Asymptomatic shedding!
Global warming! War! Famine! Meteor strikes!
>> The FACTS are unpleasant.
YOU are unpleasant.
casa...@frontiernet.net
PRPedersen wrote:
>
> >> I did not, as AJanvier accused me of, claim that it CAUSES cervical
> cancer. I said it increased the risk.
>
I disagree. To use annother example, a woman with a family history of breast cancer is at increased risk of
breast cancer. To the best of my knowledge, they still don't _know_ what _causes_ breast cancer. If you would
like to argue the symantics further, let's take it off the ng.
> But you've neglected to
> mention the truth, which is, SOME studies have demonstrated that there is
> a correlation between herpes infections and cervical cancer. NO CAUSAL
> EFFECT HAS BEEN SHOWN.
This is new to me. Would you be so kind as to point to the information? I would be very interested reading
this, as I suspect many others would be.
> Could well be that people who catch whatever causes
> cervical cancer (or have a predisposition to develop cervical cancer) are
> also more likely to catch herpes (or have a predisposition, etc.).
This is possible. I seem to remember hearing a report somewhere (TV, radio) that there was a link between
early sexual activity (please don't ask me to define "early") and cervical cancer. If I'm remembering
correctly, there was some speculation that those who started early were more likely to contact STDs and that
was the problem not the age. I'm sorry I don't have more info. Also it was a long time ago. I guess it made
an impression.
> You also neglected to mention just how much correlation was found. It
> wasn't all that big, was it?
Because I didn't know the numbers handy. Only the old reports that there was a correlation.
> > As for committing suicide, I don't think it's wasteful to die rather
> than risk hurting another human being.
>
> I have the flu. Think I'll kill myself now, before I give it to someone.
Touche! I should have been more clear. I don't think it's wasteful to die rather
than risk infecting another human being with an _incurable_ disease.
>
> >> exposing someone to an incurable disease
>
> Yeah, it's incurable. So what? I'd rather have herpes than some "curable"
> diseases. Why do you always accentuate the negative??
For me, the fact that herpes is incurable IS the defining factor. And I'm curious, which "curable" diseases
are you thinking of? I would not be willing to be paralyzed, or have a limb amputated in exchange for being
cured, so yes, there are worse things (to me). As for accentuating the negative, I think it only seems that
way because I'm going against the prevailing wind in this ng. I think the negatives of this disease are too
often glossed over here. The "Oh, just use a condom." mentality. Well if using a condom were protection
against herpes, I wouldn't have it! I'm living proof that you can get herpes when a condom is used.
> You have a lot worse
> problems than herpes, and your problems are not in your genitals.
And what to you know about my problems? My life would certainly not be perfect if I were cured, but I would no
long wish for the courage to commit suicide.
> >> I know the risk is small, but it is THERE. That matters to me. It
> frightens me.
>
> Worrying about insignificant risks is a sign of personality disorder. You
> need to get some help with this. I'm not joking.
I didn't realize that having a conscience was a sign of a personality disorder. Perhaps my proiorities are
merely different from yours. That doesn't make me wrong, it doesn't make you wrong, it just means we're
different.
And BTW, what are your credentials that you are qualified to diagnose a personality disorder based on a handful
of postings?
> >> I had one man run, (literally run!) away from me when I told him.
> The faster, the better. Good riddance.
Why? He was the nice, smart one. The other guys treated me like dirt. Except my ex. But by the time he got
to me I was so conditioned to being hurt and used that I didn't know how to cope with someone who loved me.
> > having herpes has been a horrible way to live
>
> Your problems have less to do with herpes than you think.
Perhaps. I have yet to locate whatever switch it is I need to flip. I only know that I have felt like
diseased garbage since being diagnosed all those years ago, and I have yet to find a reason to believe
otherwise.
> >> I do care if I hurt someone else... I do not want to propagate this
> disease.
>
> We all feel the same.
If that is so, why are so many willing to hop into to bed with someone who is not infected?
> >> When there's a cure, or even a vaccine, my attitude will change.
>
> I doubt it. Unless you change your outlook on life, you'll certainly find
> something else to be miserable about.
I disagree, but god, it would be wonderful to find out! I'm sure I'd be pretty happy for awhile anyway.
> You're a very, very confused person. You need to rethink a lot of things.What is it you think I'm confused about?
> >> I've shed many tears reading this ng. Some cathartic, some just
> reliving painful memories. It would seem that I am being asked/told to go
> back to being alone. Yes? No?
>
> Of course not. But lighten up! On yourself especially.
Lighten up. I guess that does get to the heart of my differences with so many of the folks in this ng. This
is serious to me. It is not something to take lightly. A bad hair day is something to take lightly. ANY
contagious incurable disease is not.
You have got me wondering though. I wonder how much of my self loathing is not so much that I have the
disease, but that I was stupid enough to trust the SOB that gave it to me. (I only posted part of the story,
but I am convinced that he infected me on purpose)
regards,
Casandra
Tim Fitzmaurice
Time to join in the thread I think....first note, there are some things I
disagree with that casandra has said, particularly the suicide line...but
on to the crunch.
On Thu, 16 Jan 1997 casa...@frontiernet.net wrote:
> PRPedersen wrote:
> > >> I did not, as AJanvier accused me of, claim that it CAUSES cervical
> > cancer. I said it increased the risk.
> > Cause, increase the risk, IT'S THE SAME THING.
> I disagree. To use annother example, a woman with a family history of
> breast cancer is at increased risk of
Casandra is right here...but the example is a lousy one.....Here's
another. Immunosuppression increases the risk of a genital herpes
outbreak.
Low immune function does not however cause herpes outbreaks, HSV does.
> > But you've neglected to
> > mention the truth, which is, SOME studies have demonstrated that there is
> > a correlation between herpes infections and cervical cancer. NO CAUSAL
> > EFFECT HAS BEEN SHOWN.
> This is new to me. Would you be so kind as to point to the information?
> I would be very interested reading this, as I suspect many others would be.
Actually the situation is not as described by PPedersen....an association
is noted, that association is currently bouncing around at about the level
where HSV is being considered as a co-factor in the disease, HPV often
appearing absolutely neccessary (ie the causal virus) with other viruses
eg CMV and HSV being bounced around as the co-factors...lets go into a bit
more detail here and bring in the scientific papers (anything in []
brackets are comments of mine...)
(1) TI: Increased prevalence of herpes viruses in high grade CIN and
carcinoma of the cervix: The potential for synergistic effect
AU: Baldauf_JJ, Dreyfus_M, Monlun_E, Ritter_J, Obert_G
JN: Journal of the European Academy of Dermatology and Venereology,
1995, Vol.4, No.1, pp.104-109
[snip]
grade CIN (29%) and normal cervices (9%). Conclusions: The
results support the hypothesis of a role of herpes viruses (HSV
and HCMV) as cofactors in cervical carcinogenesis.
[This is probably one of the stronger papers that concludes the role of
HSV and CMV in cervical cancer is important.]
(2) TI: Association of herpesvirus infection with the development of
genital cancer
AU: Koffa_M, Koumantakis_E, Ergazaki_M, Tsatsanis_C, Spandidos_DA
JN: International Journal of Cancer, 1995, Vol.63, No.1, pp.58-62
[This one however stays in the association camp]
(3) TI: Role of herpes simplex type 2 in genital cancers: Review of the
evidence
AU: Guibinga_GH, Coutlee_F, Kessous_A, Hankins_C, Lapointe_N,
Gill_J, Romanowski_B, Shafran_S, Grimshaw_R, Haase_D, Schlech_W,
Sellors_J, Smaill_F, Boucher_M, Chateauvert_M, Coutlee_F,
Falutz_J, Lalonde_R, Macleod_J, et_al
JN: Archives of STD/HIV Research, 1995, Vol.9, No.2-4, pp.163-179
[A sensible paper that decides to sit and down and examine the evidence
and tends towards the co-factor option.]
(4) TI: The relationship of human papillomavirus-related cervical
tumors to cigarette smoking, oral contraceptive use, and prior
herpes simplex virus type 2 infection
AU: Daling_JR, Madeleine_MM, McKnight_B, Carter_JJ, Wipf_GC,
Ashley_R, Schwartz_SM, Beckmann_AM, Hagensee_ME, Mandelson_MT,
Galloway_DA
JN: Cancer Epidemiology Biomarkers and Prevention, 1996, Vol.5,
No.7, pp.541-548
[Several topical things that have been suggested as risk factors examined]
(6) TI: A PCR study on the coexistence of herpes simplex virus,
cytomegalovirus and human papillomavirus DNAs in cervical
neoplasia
AU: Baldauf_JJ, Dreyfus_M, Ritter_J, Meyer_P, Philippe_E, Obert_G
JN: International Journal of Gynecological Cancer, 1996, Vol.6,
No.5, pp.389-395
AB: There is strong epidemiological and biological evidence that
the development of squamous cell carcinoma of the cervix is a
multistep process in which human papillomaviruses (HPVs) play a
crucial but not total role and where the synergistic effect of
herpes simplex virus (HSV) and human cytomegalovirus (HCMV) has
been suggested. The presence of HPV, HSV and HCMV
[Snip]
0.33-2.24) was not associated with cervical neoplasia. Our
results support the role of HSV and HCMV as cofactors of HPV 16
and HPV 18 in cervical neoplasia.
[Again a further paper jumping onto the cofactor role for HSV]
> > Could well be that people who catch whatever causes
> > cervical cancer (or have a predisposition to develop cervical cancer) are
> > also more likely to catch herpes (or have a predisposition, etc.).
> This is possible. I seem to remember hearing a report somewhere (TV, radio)
> that there was a link between early sexual activity (please don't ask me to
> define "early") and cervical cancer. If I'm remembering correctly, there
> was some speculation that those who started early were more likely to
> contact STDs and that was the problem not the age. I'm sorry I don't
> have more info. Also it was a long time ago. I guess it made
> an impression.
Other viral infections and physical irritation are both things that can
get HSV to reactivate and replicate....either early sexual activity
or HPVcould do this....if HSV helps HPV do damage you have a setup where
it helps itself along.
All these early activity, early risk things are
based on a very simplistic equation...that there is an X% chance of
something per year happening, then the longer you are exposed the
greater the chance is....but remeber that this is usually something based
on cumulative probability....rather than neccessarily increased risk per
year (though that can get involved as well).
> > You also neglected to mention just how much correlation was found. It
> > wasn't all that big, was it?
> Because I didn't know the numbers handy. Only the old reports that there
> was a correlation.
> > > As for committing suicide, I don't think it's wasteful to die rather
> > than risk hurting another human being.
> > I have the flu. Think I'll kill myself now, before I give it to someone.
> Touche! I should have been more clear. I don't think it's wasteful to die
> rather than risk infecting another human being with an _incurable_ disease.
Sorry casandra disagree with you violently here....on that basis you have
pretty much condemned the human race. As yet there is not one herpesvirus
that is truely curable, here are the infection rates of human
herpesviruses....
HSV1 Studies vary between 60 and 90%, averaging about 80%, dependant on
how they detect the virus and how they group people.
HSV2 Again studies vary, between 15 and 40% dependant on where in the
world you are.
Cytomegalovirus...50% in rural areas 90% in urban, incidence increases
with age.
The following paper did detection via antibody for CMV and also for HSV1
and 2, and gives an idea of the kind of figures you see, though a little
on the low side based on how they select people)
TI: High levels of cytomegalovirus antibody in patients requiring
vascular surgery for atherosclerosis
AU: Adam_E, Probtsfield_JL, Burek_J, et_al
JN: Lancet, 1987, Vol.2, No.8554, pp.291-294
Varicella Zoster virus.....near ubiquitous in the UK...if you had
chickenpox you got this one.
Epstein-BArr Virus.....ubiquitous (basically someone who is negative is a
real big rarity.)
HHV-6 about 90% of people are positive for this by the age of 2
HHV-7 very little info about for this but the 'best' study indicates
near ubiquity for the virus after the age of about 36 months.
HHV-8 Studies vary from 30% up to suggestions it is ubiquitous but its so
new that no one really can pin down an accurate number.
This indicates a whole variety of incurable diseases that affect a huge
proportion of people...most seem to be transmitted early in life (HSV1,
HHV6 and 7, EBV, VZV). The cause a variety of diseases and have a variety
of unuual sequelae......everyone has at least one, pretty much most of us
have 3 or 4 and anything up to 8 is a serious possibility....the human
race would have a bleak future, if everyone following the 'die before I
infect someone' attitude. These things have evolved with us, they have
been known for ages...Greeks and Romans knew them, Shakespeare mentions
them. A rennaisance descripition of shingles is 'The rose red girdle from
hell'....and then we could start listing all the animal herpesviruses
(horses have 5 seperate ones for example...if prevention of transmission
was an issue every horse in the UK would have to be put down.)
> > >> exposing someone to an incurable disease
> > Yeah, it's incurable. So what? I'd rather have herpes than some "curable"
> > diseases. Why do you always accentuate the negative??
> For me, the fact that herpes is incurable IS the defining factor. And I'm
> curious, which "curable" diseases are you thinking of? I would not be
I could think of several cancers, umm rabies (the treatment itself is some
I would desperately avoid), tuberculosis, cholera, tetanus (actually scrap
tuberculosis its a lousy example) as being curable diseases I would not
choose over the incurable herpesviruses (not that most of us will get much
choice with this bunch of viruses)
Tim
casa...@frontiernet.net
RRosieJ wrote:
>
> Hi Casandra,
>
> I'm sorry that some of the postings dissenting with your viewpoint have
> turned into personal attacks. You don't deserve that.
Thank you. Believe it or not, they're much easier to deal with. "Oh, a mindless idiot resorting to a personal
attack. BFD!" It was the person who was deliberately twisting my statements around that really got me going.
And to post all over the world with such a funny typo in the opening line! If she(?) hadn't been so vicious, I
would have been laughing at her.
> And you are right
> in thinking that this newsgroup is a forum where *all* points of view may
> be presented.
Thank you.
> I guess that some of the things you have to say really push
> people's buttons because they sound a lot like the uninformed,
> stereotyping, alarmist ideas that much of the general public has about
> herpes and the people who have it.
Still, only one person has come forward to refute my statements, and that was without citations. I would
dearly love to be proven wrong about the risks.
As for the alarmist attitudes. Maybe I've just run into more people who are freaked out by it than most. And
I know how I feel about it. I mean it literally when I say I would rather be dead than have this disease. It
is beyond my comprehension why anyone in their right mind would risk getting it. As I said in one of my
earlier posts, I'm sure my opinions have been colored by the timing and callous treatment I got at the time of
my diagnosis. That really doesn't give anyone else the right to tell me my feeling about this are wrong, and
that I have personality disorders or any of the other accusations the amateur shrinks have been making. If
they had the same experiences, I suspect they would feel much as I do.
> For anyone who has found this
> newsgroup to be a place where they could get information that would help
> them reclaim their self-esteem and normalize their lives your words might
> be a reminder of the self-destructive extremist kind of thinking that they
> are trying to leave behind.
I am not willing to reclaim myself esteem at the price of deluding myself. It's incurable, it's contagious,
it's painful (in most cases), and you can be sued for giving it to someone. You can end up being ordered to
pay not only for a multi-year supply of anti-virals but also pain and suffering damages.
And for the nay-sayers, I'm NOT posting this as part of some doom and gloom campaign. I'm pointing it out so
people know to take appropriate precautions to protect themselves from lawsuits. My lawyer (3-4 years ago in
N.Y.) told me that the only certain way to do this would be a notarized document where the person agrees that
they were informed of your condition prior to ever having sexual relations with you, and that they accept the
risks involved. Please don't depend on this exact wording. I'm not a lawyer, I'm a software engineer.
I do have access to a couple of case references if anyone is interested. They do not make for happy reading.
(Another reason I'm so negative about this?)
> I'd like to ask you one question: have you ever considered that there
> might be someone out there who really loves you, in the most profound
> sense of the word, not just sexually, for whom being deprived of having a
> loving, intimate relationship with you would be a far, far worse fate than
> contracting herpes?
No. Never. I have never experienced that kind of love and I guess I'm lacking something that would allow me
to imagine it. Someone once asked me if I were the uninfected person, and someone I loved was infected,
wouldn't I stay with that person anyway. My answer was, "Knowing what I know now? Absolutely not. No how, no
way. And I would seriously doubt the sincerity of a man who professed to love me while asking me to take that
chance." She was very surprised. Amazingly, this woman and I are still friends. You see, she lost her
husband to AIDS (and yes they knew before they were married), so she knows more about this kind of situation
than most.
>
> Rena
Casandra
VoirDire43
Cassondra, I totally understand how you are feeling about this and you
don't need others to validate your feelings. In any type of trauma, there
is a cycle of healing which needs to be followed and each person's is
different. Your feelings belong to you and, determinate upon whatever
baggage we carry, or how the virus is acquired, strongly affects how each
of us feels (which is different, dependent upon the individual.) During
the course of my work and within almost every study I have reviewed about
HSV2, they have referred to the often devastatingly emotional effects of
the virus, thus leading me to refer to it as the "Virus of Betrayal".
In the State of California, since January 1, 1995, it is a misdemeanor to
knowingly conceal the fact one has HSV2 and to transmit such virus to
another. The penalties include up to one year in county jail. Civil
charges include sexual battery, deceit, fraud, etc. The courts are
viewing these incidents seriously, and are seemingly in agreement with
your philosophy. In essence, what is occurring, is those individuals,
who knowingly transmit the virus, are taking responsibility in making a
choice for that other person...it's a form of control and it is unethical,
amoral and wrong. And, that is something society and the courts both
agree upon. I applaud you for being an honest individual who cares about
the welfare of others.....to say you care enough about them to protect
them is admirable, honest and ethical.
A further sense of control is allowing yourself to succomb to the
emotionally devastating effects of the "betrayal"......as time passes, you
may decide you don't wish to allow the ramifications of someone else's
actions to affect you in such a negative manner, thus allowing them
continued control over you. You may wish to work on learning how to exist
within the parameters of the virus and to be able to integrate the changes
into your life.
And, finally, the final control is making the decision for others....they
are responsible for that decision, not you. All we can do is give them
the information they need and if they make an informed choice of whether
or not to be involved with knowledge of the virus. If they choose not to
be, they obviously weren't the person for us......
Believe it or not, observation reveals, after time passes, there are
"positives and negatives" which could be viewed from the perspective of
the individual who contracted the virus.....I know it's difficult to see,
especially in the early stages of numbness, disbelief, often denial, etc.,
but just, yet, another outlook. The negatives are well known by those who
have sustained the symptoms of the virus and have been discussed
extensively on this board, however, the positives, which help to enhance
the quality of life, following betrayal within a realtionship, are as
follows:
1. Often, when resigned to the possibility one may never have another
relationship, one begins to work on one's self and develop other areas of
one's life to "compensate" for the lack of a relationship. This assists
in rebuilding self-esteem.
2. Often, after being devastated in such a manner as contracting the virus
under a dishonest situation, one becomes more sensitive to the feelings of
others and exercises more consideration and empathy toward others. The
anger toward the perpetrator alleviates and there is more of a "pity" for
the desperate state of the individual who knowingly lies in order to
acheive one's own self-gratification. There is a real sense of
empowerment in that. Instead of being at a "lower level" with the person
and because of the person, we are at a much higher level within ourselves.
3. Often, with enhanced self-esteem and more consideration, one becomes
more attractive to "quality" people and begins to recognize those familiar
patterns which led one to gravitate toward the "predator" sort of
individuals. There is an ability to practice a more enhanced
self-protection and desire not to be associated with such harmful
individuals any more, as one assesses more and more, the type of person
with whom one wishes to be involved. And, with honesty, those individuals
ordinarily have a respect for one and that begins to build on a
relationship of trust, which is essential for any relationship. Without
trust and honesty, there is no relationship, according to Dr. Laura. :)))
4. Those quality people usually have more substance than those who merely
think of themselves and deliberately hurt anothers to achieve
self-gratification. And, they may not care about the virus......choosing
to look at the person for other positive traits, which are of importance
in their lives, not solely those which involve merely "sex". And, with
education, eventually, most "quality" persons choose on the side of
"love".....those who don't, who needs them? If one is secure in one's
self, we soon learn to appreciate the fact we found out early in the
relationship that the individual is "weak in substance"......and we "got
off cheap", without having to experience even similiarites of the
devastation experienced previously.
5. Though one does not forget or forgive, one learns to move on and
appreciate the quality of life........and one learns there is a far
greater intimacy than that of "having sex"...it is the intimacy of love,
closeness and of trust. And, it's far greater than anything that other
individual may ever be capable of feeling.
6. And, then, one day, one meets a wonderful person who does not "run
away", who has substance and who CAN be trusted and one is prepared and
ready for an equal relationship.
7. Finally, "Thank God it wasn't HIV, or he/she wasn't a serial killer or
I didn't marry him." And, at some point, after those thoughts, there may
even be a chuckle of relief and a feeling of "thanks" for the "wake up
call".
Just some feelings and observations made during my conversations with
hundreds of individuals who have sustained HSV2 and experts in the field.
During the initial course, one may consider all options, as extreme as
they may be, because during those bleak and overwhelming times and during
the time of grief and hurt, it seems only darkness exists. Many have
said, "I would rather be dead than hurt somebody else....I'd rather be
dead than live in this world alone." But, how many really meant it or
acted upon it....it is more of a temporary situation which occurs in a
number of trauma, crisis situations, from the loss of a spouse or loved
one, to the loss of career and community stature. Sometimes, that
feeling, associated with depression is what is needed to push the person
toward finding help, support or counseling to learn to cope with the
feelings of betrayal and the overwhelming, initial findings and how to
live with the virus. But, as time passes, we, as humans, learn to cope,
to adjust and to grow.....to be born, to reflect and, then, to radiate is
a life process. And, without these sometimes devastating turns in life,
often, we don't see the simple beauty........just a few ideas and some
personal thoughts about the matter........
ConnieAct
Why is everyone so concerned about cervical cancer? With the annual Pap
test, they can spot cell changes up to 7 years before you actually have a
fully developed disease. There is treatment and no one needs to die of
cervical cancer these days.
Women who are through with child-bearing might need a hysterectomy someday
for a variety of reasons including birth control. Then there is no worry
about cervical or uterine cancer if the uterus and cervix are gone.
Be happy to hear from anyone who has reliable information that is
different from mine.
DellaCroce
Rena....my point exactly....Very well put!
Michelle
Della...@aol.com
DellaCroce
Regarding the "being sued"....
This is where informed consent comes into play. I discussed this with my
lawyer and you must be able to prove that the person who gave it to you
was aware that they had it (many people don't know) and that they didn't
tell you. As long as you are honest with your prospective partner before
putting them at risk, you should be ok. I don't know if the laws differ
from state to state, but, it seems reasonable that they would be somewhat
similar in this case. Check with legal council if you really are unsure.
As for me...hsv turned out to be a HUGE barganing tool during my divorce
settlement. I ended up financially stable with full custody of my
daughter. I am now the sole owner of a home that is half paid for and a
brand new car. Not to mention a sinfully excessive sum of child support
and alimony....Put my x in jail? Yes, I could have...the lawyer called it
battery...but then pointed out that he can't work three jobs from behind
bars....I prefer compensatory damages... :)
Maybe he'll think with his big head next time....
Michelle
Della...@aol.com
Jackie Bilodeau
Hi all
My ex-bf gave me herpes knowingly. Here is Pennsylvania that is not a
criminal act, but I was able to sue under small claims court and I won
$2,000.00, i could have held out for more, but the stress of having the trial
delayed and delayed and wanting to get this man out of my life forever was too
much so I settled.
jackie
Emrys Cole Edwards
In article <32DF39...@frontiernet.net>, casa...@frontiernet.net wrote:
(snip)
Dear Cassandra -
I've been lurking and participating on this ng for quite a while now and
have been infected with Herpes for a lot longer ( 6-7 yrs ) and I agree
with you that it is a vile disease which no-one has the right to take a
chance with . I also agree that if it can be proven that it was spread
intentionally a law suit is certainly in order .
On the other hand , I have been married for 5 years to a wonderful
woman who shows NO SYMPTOMS and has never had a reason to suspect that she
could have contracted any kind of STD . We have always been open about the
possibilities and have also been VERY careful when love-making . My own
symptoms and frequency of episodes have actually increased over the past
year ( stress related - self employed !! ) Yet she remains symptom free
!!! For the first four years of our relationship we had unprotected sex as
I had had a vasectomy and I didn't know about shedding . My sores were in
locations where contact was unlikely as long as care was taken anyway ,
and we never had sex if I had so much as a tingle let alone a sore . Now I
have a location actually on my penis and as a result we now always use a
condom .
None the less - all this is beside the point . My wife loves me and I
love her and she accepts the fact that she could contract this disease
through me . With all the care that we have taken , she would not consider
it my FAULT , just a fact of life . It would be unfortunate as it would
obviously impede the frequency of our love-making . It can only become
life threatening if you are extremely careless , and as a result it
remains an itchy , sometimes painful pimple which comes and goes largely
as a result of your lifestyle . ( healthy restfull lifestyle - less sores
! )
Just think how lucky you are not to have any number of other incurable
things such as MS , Parkinsons , Cancer (only curable sometimes )
Schizophrenia , Migraine headaches , etc. None of which are STD's or how
about AIDS which not only will affect your love life but WILL likely kill
you !
It is frustrating to have Herpes and it's worse to KNOW that it is
incurable but there are a lot of worse things that people learn to live
with because living is what it is all about !!!
I also suspect that there is more wrong with your life than having
Herpes . Perhaps it is the lack of someone to share your life with ,
someone to LOVE ! There are lots of people out there who will love you
despite any selfperceived faults . Perhaps even because of some of them !!
My wife natters on about my generosity and how I give too much , but I
don't think she would love me as she does if I weren't that kind of person
to begin with !!!
I admit I myself have had a lot of ups and downs regarding Herpes
including some major depressions , but there is nothing about it which
make me not want to be around when my Grandchildren are born !
So - my dear Cassandra - Please try to find something good in life ,
something to live for , something or someone else to die for than yourself
. Perhaps you'll find that you can contribute something happy to the world
! Allow yourself to love others freely and you'll find that there are
others who will love you the same way .
rh...@pathcom.com as always - me -
klr...@aol.com
>As far as I'm concerned having this virus is more than enough cause to
commit
>suicide.
This is a value judgement. Here's mine:
I worked on a suicide hotline for over a year. To recommend suicide to an
emotionally vulnerable person (i.e. many of the people who post and lurk
on this newsgroup) is certainly more unethical than honestly loving an
uninfected person.
I expect to see a cure for this disease within my lifetime. As far as I'm
concerned, death is really the ONLY incurable disease.
casa...@frontiernet.net
klr...@aol.com wrote:
>
> In article <32DC74...@frontiernet.net>, casa...@frontiernet.net
> writes:
>
> >As far as I'm concerned having this virus is more than enough cause to
> commit
> >suicide.
>
> This is a value judgement. Here's mine:
>
> I worked on a suicide hotline for over a year. To recommend suicide to an
> emotionally vulnerable person (i.e. many of the people who post and lurk
> on this newsgroup) is certainly more unethical than honestly loving an
> uninfected person.
1) I did not _recommend_ anything. I stated my opinion.
Please learn the difference. If someone chooses to
commit suicide because they have herpes, I would
understand and respect that choice.
2) I certainly wish the SOB that contaminated me had
killed himself sometime prior to 1980 (when he
infected me).
As for suicide...
I believe that suicide is an individual right. I believe that interfering with
a suicide is the moral equivelent of torture. If someone's life is that horrible
that they would rather stop the pain now and give up any chance of things getting
better, it is their choice, no one else's. I beleive forcing someone to continue
suffering is hateful and amoral. These are my beliefs. I am firm in them. Don't
bother to waste bandwidth with flames.
Helping people who are actively asking for help is to be commended.
> I expect to see a cure for this disease within my lifetime. As far as I'm
> concerned, death is really the ONLY incurable disease.
Death is not a disease. This is one of the stupidest remarks I have ever heard.
I don't beleive there will be a cure for herpes within the next 100 years. I
have serious doubts that they are even looking. AIDS is the hot research
area now.
And if you want to continue debating the ethics of suicide please find a
more appropriate news group.
B.Yeltsin
>In article <32DF39...@frontiernet.net>, casa...@frontiernet.net wrote:
>
>(snip)
> Dear Cassandra -
>I've been lurking and participating on this ng for quite a while now and
>have been infected with Herpes for a lot longer ( 6-7 yrs ) and I agree
>with you that it is a vile disease which no-one has the right to take a
>chance with . I also agree that if it can be proven that it was spread
>intentionally a law suit is certainly in order .
Thanks for posting this message. I'm sure that all who participate in
the ng will relate to some if not all from has been said. From both
sides that is. What makes the world what it is is differences of
opinion. If not for this we would have NO drive to excell in
different areas to help all humanity. Keep on posting, I love it. We
can learn from all postings. Whether it is to read, ingest and
discard the bad or to keep the good. As in all things in life, "life"
IS a learning experience. We all know what happens the day we stop
learning. B:-)
casa...@frontiernet.net
The following is taken from The Johns Hopkins University STD Research
Group page (http://ww2.med.jhu.edu/jhustd/)
Please note the last line. Personally I'll put more faith in the Johns
Hopkins University researchers than Hele...@aol.com
"Genital Herpes
Genital herpes affects an estimated 30 million Americans. Approximately
500,000 new cases of this incurable infection develop annually. Herpes
infections are caused by herpes simplex virus (HSV). The major
symptoms of herpes infection are painful blisters or open sores in the
genital area. These may be preceded by a tingling or burning sensation
in the legs, buttocks, or genital region. The herpes sores usually
disappear within 2 to 3 weeks, but the virus remains in the body and
the lesions may recur from time to time. Severe or frequently recurrent
genital herpes is now treated with acyclovir, an antiviral drug
available by prescription; it helps control the symptoms but does not
eliminate the herpes virus from the body. Women who acquire genital
herpes during pregnancy can transmit the virus to their babies.
Untreated HSV infection in newborns can result in mental retardation
and death."
I wish you flamers and polyannas would check your facts before posting.
Herpes can be a "big deal" tragic consequences. Fortunately, the results
are rarely so horrific. That does not mean that they can be discounted.
I'm quite certain that to the women who have lost their babies or are
struggling with the challenges of raising a needlessly retarded child,
those statistics are quite meaningless.
Respectfully,
Casandra
Paul Pedersen
THANK YOU for injecting some sanity into this discussion.
In article <19970120000...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
hele...@aol.com (HelenNYC1) wrote:
> No one should believe one thing Casandra says. She is absolutey wrong
> about everything!
>
> Anyone who has questions should call ASHA (800 directory) and order
> Managing Herpes or the Truth About Herpes. These books are the most
> reliable sources of accurate information. Then get the newsletter sent to
> you.
>
> And remember you don't know who anyone is on this board or what their
> motives are in responding. We are here to share personal experiences, not
> dispense mediacl advice, unless one of is a physician who has studied this
> disease, and trust me, not even most doctors have the facts.
>
> I hope anyone who has been frightened by this irresponsible person will
> get the facts and calm down. It really isn't such a big deal!
Paul Pedersen
>> To recommend suicide to an
emotionally vulnerable person (i.e. many of the people who post and lurk
on this newsgroup) is certainly more unethical than honestly loving an
uninfected person.
Hear, hear!
casa...@frontiernet.net
Perhaps Helen would care to take this topic up with the authors of the
following paper. I have included the URL and the abstract.
Yes these cases are VERY RARE. but when you are that 1 in a 1,000,000
case, the statistics don't mean much. It can happen. It does happen, fortunately
it is rare.
The question is, could you live with yourself if this happened to the
person you infected?
http://www.sma.org/smj/96jul18.htm
Fatal Disseminated Herpes Simplex in Pregnancy
With Maternal and Neonatal Death
Paul L. Gelven, MD, Karl K. Gruber, MD, Frederick K. Swiger, MD,
Stephen J. Cina, MD, and Russell A. Harley, MD, Charleston, SC
ABSTRACT: Disseminated herpes is rare in the adult and usually
occurs in the immunocompromised. Twenty-one cases have been reported
in which healthy women contracted life-threatening disseminated
herpes simplex virus (HSV) infections in the third trimester of
pregnancy. Most of these patients had nonspecific
symptoms, and many did not have mucocutaneous lesions. On
physical examination, they were usually febrile and anicteric
and had markedly elevated aminotransferase values, without a
corresponding elevation in bilirubin level. In our review of
the literature, we found that prompt acyclovir therapy resulted in 100%
survival. Those patients not receiving treatment or treated
late in the terminal stages of their disease had a 63% mortality
rate. We report a case of maternal disseminated HSV with
subsequent maternal death at an estimated 31 weeks' gestation
in which the diagnosis was made at the time of necropsy. The infant was
started on acyclovir therapy but died of disseminated HSV.
Most people in the western world host herpes simplex virus (HSV). Clinical
disease is usually self-limited1; however, life-threatening disseminated
herpes does occur. Patients at risk include those immunocompromised by
acquired immunodeficiency syndrome or immunosuppressive drugs and women
in the third trimester of pregnancy.
2 Since the first reported case of disseminated HSV infection in a
pregnant woman in 1969,
3 20 cases have been described in which patients had acute
herpetic hepatitis during the third trimester of pregnancy.
4-20 All patients were in their 22nd to 38th week of gestation,
except 1 patient who became ill immediately
post partum. We describe a case of disseminated herpes during
the third trimester of pregnancy in which the
woman and infant subsequently died.
Spratman 7
BRAVO BRAVO!
Very well said sir!
'til then
Jon
Spratman 7
Cassandra wrote (snip)
>I don't beleive there will be a cure for herpes within the next 100
years. >I have serious doubts that they are even looking. AIDS is the
hot >research area now.
Actually herpes IS the hot research now. AIDS reaserch is commendable but
unfortunatly not terrible profitable. Compared to herpes the installed
customer base is much smaller. The drug companies are not stupid. They may
not be the most compasionate organizations in the world but they know how
to make a buck.
Anit-virals are being advertised on television and herpes innoculations
are in clinical trials right now. UofP estimates a cure in 6-10 years.
Kinda of a long wait but nut unbearable.
The very vocal push in AIDS research has definitley spilled over into
herpes reserch, they both share alot of similar traits. However the Herpes
virus is a helluva lot easier to kill than the AIDS virus. As much as I
hate to put it this way, but there are way too many people infected with
herpes for the drug companies not to want to cash in on it.
'til then
Jon
HelenNYC1
LonelyMe33
Thanks to everyone that responded to my posting. The diverse opinions
received here have given me valuable information and insight to
contemplate. My prayer of not receiving a second outbreak has not been
answered. My send outbreak came just after my primary outbreak. At first,
this caused me great emotional pain. My doctor told me to immediately
begin another round of FAMVIR therapy. Fortunately, the second outbreak
was much smaller (only two genital blisters) and is just about gone (5
days since prodome).
Many people have emailed me directly and provided me with additional
support. I have even made a new friend or two. I thank everyone for their
support. I except the fate that has come into my life and as with all
things, I will try to keep it in perspective. I still having many many
blessings that I must be thankful for. I know that my situation could be
much worst. There are worst things that could happen to someone. I will
maintain my happiness, my hope, and I will still continue to search for
the love of my life - the person to spend forever with. For me, though,
this person will probably also have HSV. But that is my choice. I will
have to change my ways, somewhat, but who I am will never change. And most
of all, the things that bring me true happiness in this world will not be
affected by my condition. I WILL SURVIVE.
Casandra, I am so sorry for your pain. Your feelings are all valid and I
appreciate you sharing them and I appreciate the advice and information
that you offer. My advice to you is not to dwell on all the negative
consequences of herpes and the negative possibilities of having children.
There are many illnesses and problems that can occur during pregnancy that
have greater risk statistically than herpes associated complications. Do
you dwell on those too? Probably not, because those are risks that
everyone takes when considering pregnancy. Anything can happen at anytime,
that is the way life works. We (HSV infected people) are all examples of
that. I believe, that dwelling on the negatives offers NO RELIEF and
serves NO GOOD. Casandra, do not dwell on your pain and make the best out
of the good blessings you have in life. Seek help if you can t do it alone
- and never give up seeking happiness within your life. You can find it -
we all can! Where there is love, there is potential happiness!
Thanks again to everyone and please continue to post comments and
opinions.
Tim Fitzmaurice
On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Jackie Bilodeau wrote:
> My ex-bf gave me herpes knowingly. Here is Pennsylvania that is not a
> criminal act, but I was able to sue under small claims court and I won
Several replies here...but the main reason I threw that one into the
equation is, what constitutes proof that the other person involved is the
one who gave you the virus in (since most people are posting from there)
the US, becuase unless it gets down to strain typing, essentially you have
proved virtually nothing from a scientific perspective.
Tim
LonelyMe33
Thanks to everyone that responded to my posting. The diverse opinions
received here have given me valuable information and insight to
contemplate. My prayer of not receiving a second outbreak has not been
answered. My send outbreak came just after my primary outbreak. At first,
this caused me great emotional pain. My doctor told me to immediately
begin another round of FAMVIR therapy. Fortunately, the second outbreak
was much smaller (only two genital blisters) and is just about gone (5
days since prodome).
Many people have emailed me directly and provided me with additional
support. I have even made a new friend or two. I thank everyone for their
support. I except the fate that has come into my life and as with all
things, I will try to keep it in perspective. I still have many many
Paul Pedersen
>> Yes these cases are VERY RARE. but when you are that 1 in a 1,000,000
case, the statistics don't mean much.
That's just silly. The statistics ARE the real world, regardless of who you
are. Otherwise we'd all be terrified of being struck by lightning, or
catching malaria, or being hit by a stapler falling from an office window.
And we'd all win the lottery.
casa...@frontiernet.net
Jon,
You've make some very valid points. I concede the point.
I was surfing earlier and glimped an article on protease inhibitors
and herpes.
Believe, I would dearly love to be wrong, and see news of a cure, or
even a vaccine, in tomorrow's headlines.
C.
casa...@frontiernet.net
Paul,
The whole point of even raising the spectre of those remote possiblities
arose from the question of ethics.
Can a person make an informed choice about sleeping with an infected
partner if they are not aware of all the risks, however remote they may
be? I say no, they can't. At the very least, the person should be
given plenty of time to consider the implications, do research, phone a
doctor or clinic, etc. If they choose not to investigate further, then,
even I have to admit, it their own stupid fault.
All I am asking is that people who are infected inform uninfected
potential sexual partners of all the risks, and the statistics and let
the person make an informed decision.
This all started with "What's Ethical?" and I fear that we have lost
sight of that question.
Perhaps the litmus test is to ask yourself what information would you
want your son or daughter to have about this disease before having sex
with someone who has herpes. Would you advise your adult daughter to
"go for it! It's no big deal." Would you tell your son, "At least it's
not AIDS?"
If your answers to what you would tell your adult children are different
from what you tell a potential sexual partner... Well, I think there's
some soul searching to be done if that is the case.
regards,
C.
Tim Fitzmaurice
On Sat, 18 Jan 1997 casa...@frontiernet.net wrote:
> I don't beleive there will be a cure for herpes within the next 100 years. I
> have serious doubts that they are even looking. AIDS is the hot research
> area now.
Tim coughs and splutters...'serious doubts'????/ Herpesvirus work is only
one of themost active areas in infectious diseases.....We are talking
thousands of papers a year published on the things. AIDS is a hot
researsch area, yes, but a lot fo AIDS work is herpesvirus work, the drive
for new antivirals and some vaccine ideas came directly from the need for
herpesvirus work in immunocompromised people. If there was no herpesvirus
work going on, the lab I am in wouldn't exist.
To put a date on "the cure for herpes' would be nuts, but it is also
highly dismissive to just say 'not in the next hundred years'
Tim
casa...@frontiernet.net
I surrender already!! I beleive! They are looking! There's gobs
of money to be had both from a cure and vaccine.
UNCLE!!!
(See I DO have a sense of humor :-)
Emrys Cole Edwards
In article <19970120204...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
lonel...@aol.com (LonelyMe33) wrote:
And most
> of all, the things that bring me true happiness in this world will not be
> affected by my condition. I WILL SURVIVE.
>
> Casandra, I am so sorry for your pain.
attitude is exactly where all of us should be and obviously the best
reason for this group to exist is to help people like Cassandra get there
. In fact , I think that everyone posting here should try to come up with
something positive to tell Cassandra to give her a hand up . I know that I
shared some of her feelings when I was first diagnosed and again when I
had my first rejection as a result of herpes . I didn't go as far as
suicide , but I did consider the possibility of life as a monk !!!
I can't help but think that "lonelyme" is a misnomer as your strength
could only come from a background of love and emotional support !!!
All my best to you
Kinjal101
Hi, i'm 20 and have been living with this for 2 years....from the first
man i was stupid enough to sleep with..
i'm writing to you to tell you that i understand...
your questions really hit home with me..
when a doctor asks me if i'm on medication...i tell them no...I don't see
how it would be relevant..unless he/she began treating me for some
horrible illness...
anyway i want you to know that when i first diagnosised i was so ill that
i was in bed for 2 weeks..i was unable to bath, stand up or change without
the help of my mother...if that wasn't enough shame..i had to tell me
family...
today...i regret telling them. truly it is not your families issue. you
out of the need to be forward and honest...and out of the fear that you
are somehow deceptive or horrible...you feel compelled to tell others.
this is your issue, this is something you have to deal with..and in time
you will learn to accept as a unique part of yourself...
i have been single since...and have not been with another man since...but
i am waiting...waiting until i know it's the right time...
right back please..KinjaL
Lowdevil
rh...@pathcom.com wrote:
> Casandra, I am so sorry for your pain.
>Dear lonelyme - Bravo - keep it up , don't let it get you down !!! Your
>attitude is exactly where all of us should be and obviously the best
>reason for this group to exist is to help people like Cassandra get there
I am sorry for her pain also, however, I think this group needs
Casandra more than the group needs her. Isn't it obvious???