Drugs & A Brave New World
indi...@my-deja.com
the use of antidepressants as usual.
Before I took antidepressants I remeber that I was a deep, introverted,
feeling type of erson. Unfortunately, because of these traits I did not have
many relationships with others because most other people existed on a surface
level. I would isolate myself because others didn't sem to understand me.
This in turn led me to often be in a depressed state. To find connection I
inevitably end up seeking counselling. This is where I first heard the idea
of correctable "chemical imbalances". Wanting relief from myself I took these
drugs in order to become "normal".
The question I want to ask is, is it posible that us "depressed" people just
feel stronger than the average person. Could it be that our dark views of the
world really are accurate, no matter how painful they may be? Before meds, I
remember feeling that there was no apparent purpose in life. I also
couldn'tunderstand why everyone was so frantic in making progress and getting
work done or achieving when the end result is the same for all of us. I also
longed for soeone who could understand me and share my feelings. I'm
wondering if depression is the result of this type of world view. Afterall,
how can one be happy if the state of affairs they perceive is to the
contrary.
As far as anxiety we also treat that with modern medicine, but could it be
that anxiety and stress are totally normal and becoome more prevalent in a
world like ours? We bascally are forced to push ourselve and make ourselves
do what we don't want to just to exist. We are not able to turn and run from
stressful situations as ancient man was, so we have to constantly deal with
these things even if the anxiety builds and builds. And this is truly awful
for the person suffering. I remember not wanting to go into the cafeteria in
collee and later meetings at work, but how an you escape such things and
still survive?
What I'm trying to get to is tha maybe it's the world around us that makes us
feel so empty and anxious. But the world is so unchangeable that we give up
on changing the it and instead try to change ourselves, the only thing we
really have control over. The quickest and peraps most "effective" way to do
so is to take medication. It relieves us of those unwanted feelings and makes
the world "seem" like a better place, but it is just some chemicals in our
brain that have changed.
This is why I constantly refer to the loss of self on medication. When I was
on medication my mind was magically cleared, but I also lost my depth of
beliefs, etc. I no longer had a lust for philosophical knowledge. I stopped
listenning to my Pink Floyd CD's which always touched my "soul". I knew that
there couldn't be two me's so I was faced with the paradox that there can
only be one true reality. Logic would say that it has to be the drug free
reality. Unfortunately, as I've said before I can't get back to the point.
So I propose that those of us that are depressed usually are so because of
our accurate accessment of "our" reality. Our feelings and our thoughts are
intertwined and no matter how bad, are, nevertheless, real reflections of our
experiences. I won't deny though that this often "feels" awful.
It is only when we are compared to what we are led to believe is normal that
we become "abnormal", It is our need and responsibiity to fit into society,
and our desire to be in a more fulfilling world, that makes us need to change
ourselves. I think this is a hell of a price to pay to live in this world.
This is only one angle of the argument, but if there is any truth to it, it
is some scary stuff. I don't know, just some things to think about and maybe
discuss.
Mike
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
LostboyinNC
indi...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Allow me to wax philosophical for a moment. And yes I'm going to talk
about
> the use of antidepressants as usual.
>
> Before I took antidepressants I remeber that I was a deep,
introverted,
> feeling type of erson. Unfortunately, because of these traits I did
not have
> many relationships with others because most other people existed on a
surface
> level. I would isolate myself because others didn't sem to understand
me.
> This in turn led me to often be in a depressed state. To find
connection I
> inevitably end up seeking counselling. This is where I first heard
the idea
> of correctable "chemical imbalances". Wanting relief from myself I
took these
> drugs in order to become "normal".
I think instead of drugs what you perhaps needed was increased
confidence. Perhaps an experience such as Marine Corp boot camp may
have helped you before you went on all these meds. An experience such
as that may have helped you develop some leadership skills which would
have allowed you to function better interpersonally. Perhaps if you had
realized your introvertedness and lack of communications skills was
affecting your mood in a negative way, you could have done something
about it. While you sound like a very intelligent person and you said
you were an engineer and all, you probably did not have good
communications and leadership skills. Interpersonal communications
skills. This would have allowed you to interact more confidently and
have allowed you to "loosen up" and enjoyed the company of others.
Did you have a strong internal locus of control before you went on meds?
>
> The question I want to ask is, is it posible that us "depressed"
people just
> feel stronger than the average person. Could it be that our dark
views of the
> world really are accurate, no matter how painful they may be? Before
meds, I
> remember feeling that there was no apparent purpose in life. I also
> couldn'tunderstand why everyone was so frantic in making progress and
getting
> work done or achieving when the end result is the same for all of us.
I also
> longed for soeone who could understand me and share my feelings.
Sounds like you had some depression before meds? Major depression,
probably not but definitely some milder, chronic type depression.
I'm
> wondering if depression is the result of this type of world view.
Yes, it can. When you are too introverted and kind of a loner, it is
easy to become depressed. You become depressed and then nobody wants to
be around you cause your depressed. And it just snowballs. With men, I
think depressed men oftentimes are seen not so much as sad and weepy,
but as angry and gruff and irritable. Nobody wants to be around someone
like that. And the isolation increases and you just get more depressed.
Afterall,
> how can one be happy if the state of affairs they perceive is to the
> contrary.
>
> As far as anxiety we also treat that with modern medicine, but could
it be
> that anxiety and stress are totally normal and becoome more prevalent
in a
> world like ours? We bascally are forced to push ourselve and make
ourselves
> do what we don't want to just to exist. We are not able to turn and
run from
> stressful situations as ancient man was, so we have to constantly
deal with
> these things even if the anxiety builds and builds. And this is truly
awful
> for the person suffering. I remember not wanting to go into the
cafeteria in
> collee and later meetings at work, but how an you escape such things
and
> still survive?
I agree, this made me think of the cortisol theory of depression. Too
much chronic stress makes us produce "stress hormones" too much, like
cortisol. Too much of these stress hormones over too long of a time
period can cause the central nervous system to break down and become
diseased. This can cause clinical depression, which if left untreated
over time, can result in actual changes in the brain(hippocampus). We
do indeed live in a high stress world, with little opportunity for
strenuous physical activity. I personally think the lack of physical
activity is the ultimate underlying cause of major depression in the
western world. We are a fat, lazy, out of shape country. Out of shape
people dont deal well with chronic stress. Strenuous physical activity
also "burns off" these stress hormones such as cortisol and others that
mental stress produces.
>
> What I'm trying to get to is tha maybe it's the world around us that
makes us
> feel so empty and anxious. But the world is so unchangeable that we
give up
> on changing the it and instead try to change ourselves, the only
thing we
> really have control over. The quickest and peraps most "effective"
way to do
> so is to take medication. It relieves us of those unwanted feelings
and makes
> the world "seem" like a better place, but it is just some chemicals
in our
> brain that have changed.
Yes, this is why some people just "break" and quit their jobs and
decide to go become Grizzly Adams. This is the reason why sometimes
highly successful professional people like lawyers quit their jobs and
become self employed in the greenhouse business. To reduce stress so
they can survive. Some people dont want to live their lives in such a
highly stressful state and refuse to take medication. So they "break"
and go through mid life crisises, quit their jobs, leave their spouse,
decide to do their own thing.
Yeah, I think it is the lack of any kind of outdoor, physical activity
combined with chronic mental stress, combined with shitty food. Too
much sitting, Burger King, getting yelled at by your boss and family,
and not enough strenuous outdoor work and exercise and good, fresh
food. The mind cant take it, produces too much stress hormones and
cortisol and the CNS breaks down. Depression results. Such is the
result of the modern world. The human being was not designed to sit
around in a chair all the time and worry and think too much. It was
designed to be physically active, to do things. To walk a lot, sweat a
lot, be productive.
>
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
>
-- Eric
Steroids caused my depression...
indi...@my-deja.com
That's it. That's why I'm so bitter. I quit my job and was going to pursue a
more stress free life, but on the advise of my boss saw the shrink who gave
me those fucking pills that took away anything hat was good in life in the
first place. I want to feel sexually. I want to enjoy a good meal. I want to
feel the sun on my skin and know what it feels to smell flowers and enjoy
sitting on the beach (and yes I was fucked up like this before the ecstacy).
I hate those fucking people for doing this to me. I'm fucking dead while
they're driving their nice cars and spending all the money they make off us.
Even worse is that they can do this and when/if problems arise they can just
say it's part of your "condition". This is a fucking nightmare from whch
there is no escape except death. And nobody warned me, those motherfuckers!
And even worse nobody cares, not family, not friends, not the legal system,
etc. I'm alive and dead at the same time. I would rather that the shrink shot
me on the spot. That way I would never know this suffering and he could be
held responsible. I'm even afraid to call this guy and tell him what
happenned because it would just make me look crazier in his eyes.
Now I'm like a robot always talking this shit, but when you're in hell you
can't forget the flames. That's why I would have taken depression and anxiety
over this any day of the week. I swear I can't take this shit anymore. Noone
can fix a damaged brain. Noone can talk to you to make you feel better. You
just suffer endlessly. I was going to drive my truck into a tree yesterday,
but then I might go to real hell or my existence may cease which I don't
want.
I can't fucking take it. I see shit around me and I know that if my brain
worked I could interact with these things and experience life. Fuck, there's
no way out for me. I thought about having a friend shoot me in the head with
a gun, that way I won't go to hell, but were could I get a gun or someone to
shoot me.
Now that I'm disabled and can't care for myself I'm on medicaid and no
neurologist or specialist take it, so I'm stuck with the shrinks who did this
to me and can't help me anyway. I swear I am in unending agony not unlike
hell. I really wish someone would shoot me and put me out of my misery. I
would scream for help, but there is no help to be had.
Mike
LostboyinNC
>
> I hate those fucking people for doing this to me. I'm fucking dead
while
> they're driving their nice cars and spending all the money they make
off us.
> Even worse is that they can do this and when/if problems arise they
can just
> say it's part of your "condition". This is a fucking nightmare from
whch
> there is no escape except death. And nobody warned me, those
motherfuckers!
> And even worse nobody cares, not family, not friends, not the legal
system,
> etc. I'm alive and dead at the same time.
You remind me of what I was like about oh, a year ago before I got on
Wellbutrin which pulled me out of the most suicidal part of my
depression. I too was very very angry feeling towards my former "mental
health care professional" LOL what a joke. I experienced some kind of
weird drug/drug interaction from combining Remeron with low dose
Risperdal. Ive talked about it a ton on here before so Im not going to
go into the details as I get tired of talking about it. Anyway, this
drug interaction caused a hemorrhage in my scalp. After this the
antidepressants quit working. I told my psychiatrist about it and they
took it in a purely psychological context which made me mad as hell. It
also made me treatment resistant somehow as ever since then the
antidepressants dont work very well. The only people who took the
problem serious were two neurologists I went to see for it. One told me
I had a subcutaneous hemorrhage type thing in my scalp. Another called
it a special type of "vascular headache" and listed it as "headache,
other" on the diagnosis sheet and recommended tricyclic antidepressants
for it, which I still have never been on yet.
Mike, I too have been very, very angry about the way I have been
treated by a few of my former doctors. In fact, my current doctor
agrees I have been treated poorly and thinks it is ridiculous the way I
have been treated in the past. From reading your posts however, I
believe you definitely have depression of some sort. Suicidal thoughts
are indicative of depression. You sound like yours are pretty strong
too, I was like that about a year or more ago...very suicidal thinking
I was. Antidepressants pulled me out of the worst of that though.
If it is true like you say you have got some underlying neurological
problem such as brain damage from ecstasy usage or burned out neurons
from illicit drug usage, etc. it is highly doubtful a regular
psychiatrist will ever be able to help you much. If you do have
underlying neurological probs, you need to see a neurologist and/or
perhaps a neuropsychiatrist. Have you been to your general
practicioner doc to talk about these neurological brain damage
problems? If not I urge you to go talk to your GP if that is the only
option you have.
Psychiatrists will only treat your "thoughts" so to speak. They do not
pay attention to any kind of underlying, physical problems you have.
That is for the "real MDs" such as neurologists, your family doctor,
neuropsychiatrists, etc. Plain old psychiatrists only worry about
thoughts, mood, perception, etc. with no real regard for trying to
correct underlying neuro problems which might be causing or
exacerbating your mental illness.
For example, when I tell my psychiatrists I have residual head pain
sometimes as a result of these subcutaneous scalp hemorrhages I had
almost two years ago, they shake it off and say "thats nice" and
attribute it to psychosomatic causes. Then they tell me I am obsessing
about it and it is this info I obsess about which is keeping me from
getting better. To a psychiatrist, EVERYTHING is psychological. It goes
in one ear and out the other. When I tell a neurologist this info
however, their ears perk up and they want to put me on tricyclic
antidepressants for it for "prophylactic headache treatment" or put me
on depakote or some other anticonvulsant as these are some of the
accepted treatments for vascular headache prophylaxis. A psychiatrist
would never, ever do that for me. Psychiatrists will not pay attention
to physical problems at all, even though they officially are MDs.
I wonder why a psychiatrist has not bothered to try to put me on a
tricyclic yet while a neurologist wanted to put me on them real bad not
long ago. Kinda makes you wonder huh?
Yes, you remind me of me in some respects. Your frustration and anger
at not feeling normal is cracking you up. I feel the same way
oftentimes.
>
> Now that I'm disabled and can't care for myself I'm on medicaid and no
> neurologist or specialist take it, so I'm stuck with the shrinks who
did this
> to me and can't help me anyway. I swear I am in unending agony not
unlike
> hell. I really wish someone would shoot me and put me out of my
misery. I
> would scream for help, but there is no help to be had.
>
> Mike
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
>
-- No way you can see a neurologist? A specialist in smart drugs? A
neuropsychiatrist? You definitely have depression and need help
immediately.
Eric
Steroids caused my depression...prednisone should be illegal.
DCDJC
>From: indi...@my-deja.com
>Date: Mon, 01 November 1999 08:27
Mike:
It is hard to believe that someone who shows such strong manifestations of
anger is any kind of zombie or numb in any way. Every person's form of
depression may be different, but from my own experience and that of others I
have talked with, the kind of depression many of us incur leaves us unable to
gather the rage you have. To me/us, depression is despair, hopelessness,
bleakness. The only emotion felt is a kind of sorrow or pain, the pain of
living in a life in which there seems to be no hope for happiness or even for a
functional future.
The term "depression" is used here as tho we understand it the same way.
Yet, I have become convinced that some people who think they have "depression"
are in fact very, vrey unhappy but have not crossed some invisible divide into
the particular hell of clinical depression. I do not mean that they are less
unhappy; indeed, they may have the energy to express their unhappiness in the
form of anger or otherwise when other depressed people just sort of wallow in
the sense of helplessness. You and Eric do not sound to me as though your
experiences have been the same as mine. That is not to say in any way that your
experiences are not as serious or bad or devastating. But I do not think they
are the same.
I think that we tend to view happiness/unhappiness as a continuum, from
glee to sorrow to depression, and each emotional state is a point somewhere on
that line. But I don't think that is true. I think that most human emotion is
somewhere on a normal curve, but that there are discontinuities, quantum jumps
to entirely different curves. Both mania and depression are on separate scales.
To follow the metaphor, the curves for these states may parallel or intersect
normal emotional swings at one or more points, but they also go in their own
directions, in other dimensions. Emotion is not a plane in two dimensions, but
we treat it as though it were.
Thus, what you describe to me is foreign: I have not ever been as angry as
you, never had the sense that I have been so wrongly deprived of my own
humanity. I don't see my depression as anything that someone did to me. I don't
see it as an extension of grief or loss or sorrow, although it can at times
have some similar characteristics.
Maybe this is why the discussions in the NG sometimes seem to be based on
entirely different world views: perhaps it is. Matters are not helped by the
fact that drugs like Prozac have in fact been treated as happy pills to be
dispensed to almost anyone who claims to be unhappy. Prozac may help lift the
mood of such people, but if their unhappiness is not the same as "depression"
as others of us understand it, then the results may be very different too.
Since this is all so subjective, I certainly cannot know what you were feeling
when you started on meds. A lot of people are dissatisfied with their lot in
life, jobs and families and everything else, and can feel trapped and down.
Medications may change those feelings, but the situation that leads to their
feeling bad has not changed and the good feelings may be painted on by the
meds. The bad depressives I know usually do not have external problems
sufficient to make them miserable, not even in their own subjective
understanding. Yet they are trapped in a hell of hopelessness that has no
external validation. Perhaps what the medications do for them is different
because the biochemical nature of their depression is different.
We are stuck in this NG with subjective understanding of how it feels to be
depressed, and of the consequences of using the meds. That may account for the
radically different attitudes we have about everything from the medical model
of depression to the efficacy of placebos. Hell, I readily accept the efficacy
of placebos even for "my" kind of depression, precisely because the brain has
been confused into making me depressed and may be confused or tricked into
changing that. Unfortunately, for me, it doesn't last. And when the placebo
effect is measured, what kinds of "depressives" are used in the trials? If
bi-polars are kept out, then perhaps some people with the worst depression
never are part of the trials. It's hard to know if one is bipolar since the
range of moods up and down need not be symmetrical.
I hope this is useful. We ought remember that we may not be speaking the
same language even when we use the same words.
dcdjc
uha...@my-deja.com
>>>wondering if depression is the result of this type of world view.
I have the same world view and have often wondered what if me and people
like me have some kind of special insight into the world or the future
of humanity. After awhile one begins to question whether or not
everyone feels this way and just tries to cope the best way they can
while putting on a happy face- like anwering "fine" when asked how
you're doing; for instance, one time I asked someone how they were doing
and they said, "well, you know..." FWIW Buddism says that this
(our?) type of existensialism is simply a reliance upon absolute truth
to absolve oneself's responsibility in this world to ease
(others) suffering. Whatever. My point is that these feelings have been
on this earth for a long, long time and while not everyone has them,
they are recognized and within the realm of "normal", however,
unhealthy. Isn't it true that seeking truth for truth's sake is often
counterproductive (tactless, mean, etc.)?
I've heard it postulated that depression is a coping mechanism that has
evolved because it preserves one's genes in the gene pool. Presumably,
when existence was much more physical, malaise, lethargy, passivity and
lack of energy made it less likely that one would be killed when
fighting to reproduce or over food. Now that more positive outlooks
would not be so deadly, it seems that less depressed people would be
more likely to reproduce. I wish someone would pursue that one. But I
digress.
The matter at hand is a sense of personal well-being, no? If, in fact,
you believe like I do that nothing REALLY matters, then what the hell,
get medicated and try to develop a new perspective or maybe even some
contrived purpose. It doesn't REALLY matter, does it? And there's always
the off chance that were NOT normal. Unless you feel it's man's lot to
suffer.
Good Luck!
LostboyinNC
> You and Eric do not sound to me as though your
> experiences have been the same as mine. That is not to say in any way
that your
> experiences are not as serious or bad or devastating. But I do not
think they
> are the same.
I have had severe clinical depression. I was rock bottom at one point
for about 6 months. Before I got on medication, I wouldnt even come on
the internet except to check my mail once a day. I experienced very
severe cognitive changes from my clinical depression and to this day I
have not nearly fully recovered the cognitive losses I experienced
early on. When my clinical depression was at the max before meds, I had
the same ominous sad feelings, was crying all the time...I mean crying
like a baby for no reason. I was quite irritable at that time but not
angry like I am now sometimes. I had sharp, stabbing guilt feelings and
just felt so numb I could not feel a thing literally. Lost all interest
in everything. Almost committed suicide also, had a plan, etc. I was
going to commit suicide in a very violent way...heavy caliber handgun
with a hollowpoint Hydrashok bullet. The kind that can literally blow a
man's head clean off. Then I got on Remeron and things came back for a
while briefly. Then I experienced the hemmorhage in my scalp as a
result of combining low dose Risperdal with Remeron. The Remeron quit
working immediately after that and I backslid into severe depression,
however I have never been quite as bad as I was at that one point
before meds. Gradually, over the past year or so I got back to the
point where I am a "partial responder" at high dosages of
antidepressants.
This is where I am now, a partial responder. I am no longer rock bottom
depressed anymore and have not been for almost a year now. However, I
am nowhere near normal either. I am in this weird shade of gray area
where I am not normal and happy and such but yet not street bum
clinically depressed anymore crying all the time. I am still quite numb
but yet can still feel things now. Some of my emotions have come back
and one of them is anger. I feel anger towards some of the early shoddy
treatment I feel I received. I can also feel some happiness now but it
is very mild and not like before depression. Basically my emotions have
come back some but are only perhaps 40% of predepression Eric. Enough
to feel some things but nowhere near enough to be out of depression.
Perhaps this is why you are confused DCDJC.
When talking to me you are dealing with someone who has gotten out of
clinical depression somewhat, but not enough to be considered anywhere
near normal. I guess anger comes thru then with me. I will totally
admit I am a very, very angry person nowadays.
Furthermore, it has been well documented that there are some clinically
depressed people who have "anger attacks" mixed in with their clinical
depression. Not all clinical depression is the same.
With no doubt at all, I have had all the way clinical depression of the
most severe kind. At one point before meds I was even
diagnosed "borderline psychotic with depressed mood" because they said
my severe depression had gotten so bad I was becoming psychotic. This
was right before I was put on Remeron and Risperdal. I had even begun
feeling paranoid and it felt like electricity was shooting through my
body. Constantly crying and my vision became so blurry my family was
wondering if I needed glasses. If thats not bad I dont know what is.
Eric
--
Steroids caused my depression...prednisone should be illegal.
DCDJC
By no means do I want to minimize your own experiences. I now understand
better, and agree that part of your experience is similar to what I think of as
depression. Part is not, and it does seem to me that you are not currently
"numb" although that does not mean you are not depressed. It sounds as though
things have not gone well for you.
Yet, when you refer to permanent damage, I reflect on the amount of
information that you have assimilated and pass on to others, the amount of
emotion that you obviously do feel, your ability to articulate your thoughts
quite well (even when I do not agree with them). You do not seem intellectually
impaired even if I think you are wrong about things. I am not referring to your
mood, your happiness or its absence, but to your ability to function
intellectually at some level. And I don't think that ETF or others think there
is anything organically wrong with you.
I don't know enough about neurology to know what kinds of damage can occur
and leave you able to function as you do. I know that Tourets and other
conditions can afflict people of high intelligence who in many ways function
well. THe Tourets patients I know (one of my 16 yr. old son's best friends,
etc) operate at a high level so long as they use their meds and avoid certain
high-stress situations, or becoming too tired.
I guess I am saying that I see in you much more potential than you attribute
to yourself. You need to find some way out of the bad place where you find
yourself, but you do not seem impaired. Maybe you need to find some way to get
away from your family, since they do not understand. Maybe you are stronger and
more competent than you think. You can be very aggravating, but that is a far,
far cry from being inferior or worthless or other than a co-traveller in the
vale of tears.
Good luck.
DCDJC
LostboyinNC
-- Thanks DCDJC, when if I ever referred to permanent damage I was
talking about the effects of a mild hemorrhage they think I had almost
two years ago. This somehow left me treatment resistant to
antidepressant medication to a large degree. I didnt bother to go get
it checked out with a neurologist or even my GP immediately after it
happened like I should have. All I did was tell my shrink and at the
time I didnt even know what happened to me, was very confused as to
what happened. He blew it off and so did I to a degree for a while,
then I went downhill after that again. Since, I have been functioning
more or less at 40% while pumped on very large doses of ADs, I have no
earthly idea why the ADs dont work that well anymore since that.
Just for info, I was diagnosed as a possible mild Tourette's syndrome
case about a year ago along with my severe refractory depression. This
was not long after the hemorrhage thing and my backswing into severe
depression until I got on Wellbutrin. I am not being treated for
Tourette's or anything, in fact I think I dont even have it. If I do it
is very mild and not an advanced or severe Tourette's case.
Yes, that is what my situation is now. I have gone from a very severe,
borderline psychotic case of clinical depression to being a "partial
responder" who somehow survives. My cognitive or intellectual skills
have improved a lot in the past year since Wellbutrin and Effexor (high
doses). But these areas are still not even half as strong as they were
before depression two years ago. I still cannot remember things well,
still have trouble concentrating and feel confused a lot. Overall, my
mental clarity is not sharp like it used to be. Yes, Ive improved but
only about 40% or so.
Eric
Elizabeth Shapere
>talking about the effects of a mild hemorrhage they think I had almost
>two years ago. This somehow left me treatment resistant to
>antidepressant medication to a large degree. I didnt bother to go get
>it checked out with a neurologist or even my GP immediately after it
>happened like I should have. All I did was tell my shrink and at the
>time I didnt even know what happened to me, was very confused as to
>what happened. He blew it off and so did I to a degree for a while,
>then I went downhill after that again.
Wow, this is an interesting discussion. It's neat to see people opening up
about stuff that is pretty personal (and still somehow managing to remain
on-topic <g>).
Eric, I'm sort of surprised that you attribute your problems to this hemorrhage
-- it wasn't in your brain, right? (I'm guessing you've had all the standard
tests and imaging studies and so forth.) I just have a hard time seeing how
something like that could make you resistant to antidepressants. I know that I
had problems finding one that would work for me after Prozac didn't seem to
work anymore, and I thought maybe it was because my depression had gotten worse
(that was my 3rd episode or so) or because at the time I was suffering from
PTSD, and perhaps it had something to do with being older (I was an adolescent
when I first Prozac), but the truth is that we don't really know at this time
why an antidepressant could work for someone once and then not work the next
time around.
>Since, I have been functioning
>more or less at 40% while pumped on very large doses of ADs, I have no
>earthly idea why the ADs dont work that well anymore since that.
I feel that multiple episodes of depression that were only half-treated have
left me less capable than I once was. I'm just not as -- sharp?
I also have this godawful sleep disorder, but that was probably there since
childhood although it's gotten much more pronounced.
-elizabeth
treede...@my-deja.com
i take prozac though and i have to say that it hasnt changed me really,
just made me more balanced and less anxious.
but i totally agree with you about the whole environment causing
disorders. it just makes so much sense. like what pink floyd said in
one of the songs on dark side of the moon. "all you touch and all you
see, is all that you will ever be"
if all that you experiance is negativity what do you think is going to
happen to you?
Jonathan
LostboyinNC
Well, I had an "intracranial CT with dye injected" to rule out
intracranial(brain) hemorrhage(aneurysm). Had it a full year AFTER I
had the hemorrhage! LOL They told me I should have been in there
immediately after it happened. They offered me a chance to have an
extracranial study done to view the blood vessels in my scalp, but I
didnt do it...expensive. Yes, the scalp is very very vascular and I
have read has great potential for regeneration. I dont know the answer
to this question. I recently requested my notes from that neurologist
to be sent to me, should be getting them anyday now. So I could
probably tell you the exact blood vessel that hemorrhaged...I suppose I
could LOL. If he got that specific. Nah, it was not deep in my head or
anything, something just under the surface and subcutaneous I believe.
> >Since, I have been functioning
> >more or less at 40% while pumped on very large doses of ADs, I have
no
> >earthly idea why the ADs dont work that well anymore since that.
>
> I feel that multiple episodes of depression that were only half-
treated have
> left me less capable than I once was. I'm just not as -- sharp?
Yeah, I am not even half as sharp as I was before depression struck two
years ago...my birthday for clinical depression is coming up here in
mid November...two Gawd awful years. I would not even think of going
back to college for anything now. Could NEVER have gotten my BA in the
condition I am in now.
>
> I also have this godawful sleep disorder, but that was probably there
since
> childhood although it's gotten much more pronounced.
Wow, maybe you should see a sleep specialist? Did the Parnate
exacerbate that? Are you on Marplan yet?
Eric
>
--
Steroids caused my depression...prednisone should be illegal.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
UniVerSity
Although I think your posts sometimes make sweeping generalizations,
mine do too, I'm sure.
And I really do sympathize (read: I really wish that you--no one--had
to be in the state you are in) with you.
Unlike many people in the ASD* groups, I've *not* always been
depressed, per se. My first episode was at 19, and now I'm 30
(tomorrow).
I have always had an introverted sensibility, though. And I--at least
I used to be--am an artist. Prozac, which I've been on for many years,
has really helped in a lot of ways. And I can't be sure if it's the
drug or the (underlying?) depression--or both--that makes me feel
blaise about things I used to feel passionately about.
I *do* know, however, that I quite enjoy feeling more...carefree;
there's a trade-off, although there doesn't have to be. I don't
believe that I have to either be "my true self" and be vulnerable or
suffering from depression, or be a zombie who doesn't really care about
anything, but who is nevertheless not in pain. My "black-and-white"
thinking--something that, on the cognitive side I'm sure contributes to
my depression--makes me sometimes think that I have to be one way or
ther other.
But I hold to the belief that I will--and am--finding balance.
JM
In article <7vur54$o39$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
treede...@my-deja.com wrote:
> very very well said.
> i take prozac though and i have to say that it hasnt changed me
really,
> just made me more balanced and less anxious.
> but i totally agree with you about the whole environment causing
> disorders. it just makes so much sense. like what pink floyd said in
> one of the songs on dark side of the moon. "all you touch and all you
> see, is all that you will ever be"
> if all that you experiance is negativity what do you think is going to
> happen to you?
>
> Jonathan
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
>
--
http://ns.phaet.com/~leesa/cocteautwins/cgraphix/jj.gif
---------------------------------------------------------
"There are two kinds of people: those who finish what they start, and so
Elizabeth Shapere
>intracranial(brain) hemorrhage(aneurysm). Had it a full year AFTER I
>had the hemorrhage! LOL They told me I should have been in there
>immediately after it happened.
Probably, but how were you to know that? Well anyway it's good to know that
that's not what happened. Still, I wonder how an extracranial hemorrhage could
affect your response to ADs. (Anyone have any ideas?)
>I recently requested my notes from that neurologist
>to be sent to me, should be getting them anyday now.
That will be interesting...I'd like to know what you find out (if anything!).
>Yeah, I am not even half as sharp as I was before depression struck two
>years ago...my birthday for clinical depression is coming up here in
>mid November...two Gawd awful years.
Nine for me, though it hasn't been chronic. I think I have residual symptoms
that are pretty much chronic, though...not dysthymia, but just something that
never is quite normal in between episodes. I have a hard time figuring out how
much of it is due to depression and how much is just due to getting older.
>I would not even think of going
>back to college for anything now. Could NEVER have gotten my BA in the
>condition I am in now.
I got through most of college unmedicated, started taking a stimulant (Cylert)
my 3rd year, and had to take time off towards the end.
>Wow, maybe you should see a sleep specialist? Did the Parnate
>exacerbate that? Are you on Marplan yet?
MAOIs (and, it seems, tricyclics) help with the REM sleep parasomnia. I end up
sleeping a lot less when I'm taking them, but it feels like I *need* less sleep
(whereas when I'm depressed, I sleep very little but feel dull and slowed-down
all the time). I thought maybe that they were messing with my concentration and
memory since I was getting so little sleep, but I seem to have been wrong about
that. (Maybe it *is* time to look into those Alzheimer's drugs?)
Haven't started Marplan yet -- there was a little snag in my attempts to
procure it.
-elizabeth
LostboyinNC
the Pamelor is doing well for you?
Eric
Elizabeth Shapere
>the Pamelor is doing well for you?
Weird, what makes you say that? I sure don't *feel* relaxed. Yes, I am on
Pamelor, but a probably-not-therapeutic dose (50 mg), and it's only been a
couple weeks.
-elizabeth
LostboyinNC
-- Hmmmmm, Im sorry about that. You just were coming acrossed relaxed
to me on here lately. Must be my poor perception or something. I
certainly hope you are feeling better soon. Are you going on Marplan
anytime soon? Back on any MAOI?
Eric
Steroids caused my depression...prednisone should be illegal.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Elizabeth Shapere
>to me on here lately. Must be my poor perception or something. I
>certainly hope you are feeling better soon. Are you going on Marplan
>anytime soon? Back on any MAOI?
I'm feeling okay for the most part, just anxious and stressed (classes are
slaying me). Out of curiosity, what did I say that made you think I was
unusually relaxed?
I hope to start Marplan sometime next week. (Due to a misunderstanding on the
part of the pharmacy, I wasn't able to get it this week.) I'm not sure if I
will stick with the nortriptyline...it's giving me really nasty dry mouth at
just 50mg. I might try desipramine, though.
So, how are *you* doing?
-elizabeth
LostboyinNC
same as usual, disgusted, a little bit agitated and only 40 to 50%
recovered. I have been feeling better lately but thats all. Effexor
seems to be working much better than the others, better than even
Wellbutrin worked, which was not that great by the way. I am on 150 mg
Effexor XR now, down from 375 mg about a month or so ago. Im tapering
off very slowly and doing "vitamin therapy" during these last couple
weeks on Effexor XR. Yeah, it sounds weird I know. Just a few weeks
until Pamelor. I cant wait, my first time ever on a tricylic. Something
I should have tried a long time ago, like a year or more ago. I will
give the Pamelor a chance, maybe 6 weeks or so. If it does not work I
might try one more Tricylic, probably Elavil. If that does not work I
will try an MAOI next. Then if that does not work it is bullet thru the
head time, no just joking LOL. I apply for disability
soon...YEAH...<sarcasm>. Boy, I never would have guessed my life would
end up like this.
Eric
>
--
indi...@my-deja.com
Elizabeth Shapere
I'd avoid Elavil. It has quite a lot of side effects, even for a tricyclic:
cognitive impairment (memory problems, word-finding difficulty, etc.),
oversedation, weight gain, constipation, dry mouth, rapid heartbeat, etc. It is
the most anticholinergic which is why it's supposed to be great for narcolepsy.
If you want a tertiary amine tricyclic, I'd say go with imipramine (or maybe
doxepin if you want something really sedating). But I think desipramine is the
best choice (I'm actually regretting my choice of nortriptyline...my mouth has
been so dry, I feel like I had sand for breakfast).
-elizabeth
LostboyinNC
-- yeah you might be right. The reason I say I might try Elavil is
because it is the gold standard tricyclic for headache prophylaxis. I
have a lot of headaches ever since my hemorrhage thing almost two
years ago. Especially in wet, cold weather. Like sharp, stabbing
icepick like pain. And one of my neurologists I went to for it wanted
to put me on tricyclics sooooooooo badly for it. That was 6 months ago.
She gave me a choice of two tricyclics...Pamelor and I believe the
other was desipramine. She gave me Pamelor I suppose cause it is less
stimulating and better for sleep which I obviously need. But I read all
this stuff elsewhere about how Elavil just shuts down vascular
headaches...thats why I maybe will have it on my number two list after
Pamelor. Hopefully Pamelor will work though.
It really is a toss up between Elavil and Tofranil. I know Tofranil is
the "gold standard" antidepressant though. I have read that Tofranil is
a very, very good antidepressant, albeit with bad side effects. But in
my case I just dont really care about side effects anymore...Im
desperate I would try almost anything. If it would work Id do anything,
including antipsychotics added to my regimen. I already tried lithium
augmentation and it made me MUCH worse. My problem is unfortunately I
cant mix psych drugs, except for benzos. I can mix antidepressants with
benzo type drugs is all I can get away with. Add lithium,
antipsychotics, a second antidepressant, whatever, to my initial
antidepressant and presto, what little antidepressant effect I was
getting from the first is totally blocked. I get more depressed when an
augmentation agent is added. It is sad and unfortunate and I wonder why
I cant mix psych drugs like others can?
This is weird but I have been requesting my records from that second
neurologist, the one that diagnosed me with a scalp hemorrhage. They
wont send the reports. They tell me they will but they never do. I
wonder why? I do owe them money, that is probably the reason cause I
have an unpaid bill with them. I wanted that report so I could know the
specifics of the hemorrhage thing.
Eric
Elizabeth Shapere
>because it is the gold standard tricyclic for headache prophylaxis.
I guess so, but just because it's the first one that was used for that, doesn't
mean it's more effective than any of the others.
>I have a lot of headaches ever since my hemorrhage thing almost two
>years ago. Especially in wet, cold weather. Like sharp, stabbing
>icepick like pain.
What part of your head?
>And one of my neurologists I went to for it wanted
>to put me on tricyclics sooooooooo badly for it. That was 6 months ago.
>She gave me a choice of two tricyclics...Pamelor and I believe the
>other was desipramine. She gave me Pamelor I suppose cause it is less
>stimulating and better for sleep which I obviously need.
Yeah, desipramine can be pretty activating.
>But I read all
>this stuff elsewhere about how Elavil just shuts down vascular
>headaches...thats why I maybe will have it on my number two list after
>Pamelor. Hopefully Pamelor will work though.
Again, Elavil has the greatest *reputation* for headaches, probably because it
was the first one used for that. Similarly people assume Paxil is better than
Prozac and Zoloft for panic attacks, or that Luvox is the best SSRI for OCD,
just because they were approved first for those indications.
>It really is a toss up between Elavil and Tofranil. I know Tofranil is
>the "gold standard" antidepressant though.
Again, that doesn't mean it's more effective than any other. More recent
clinical trials have tended to compare things with Prozac, actually.
>I have read that Tofranil is
>a very, very good antidepressant, albeit with bad side effects.
Elavil is too, only the side effects are worse. You might as well avoid the
nasty side effects - there are many tricyclics to try, and no reason to assume
that Elavil or Tofranil is any better just because they are older.
>I already tried lithium
>augmentation and it made me MUCH worse.
Yeah, I remember that - what happened exactly?
>I get more depressed when an
>augmentation agent is added. It is sad and unfortunate and I wonder why
>I cant mix psych drugs like others can?
It might just be that the specific strategies you have tried have made things
worse. There's no reason why mixing in general would always cause you problems.
>This is weird but I have been requesting my records from that second
>neurologist, the one that diagnosed me with a scalp hemorrhage. They
>wont send the reports. They tell me they will but they never do. I
>wonder why? I do owe them money, that is probably the reason cause I
>have an unpaid bill with them. I wanted that report so I could know the
>specifics of the hemorrhage thing.
Next time you call, if they try to BS you, ask to speak to a supervisor. That's
the advice someone gave me (I've been trying to get some of my records too).
-elizabeth
Chris Hedley
sha...@aol.comicrelief (Elizabeth Shapere) writes:
> I'd avoid Elavil. It has quite a lot of side effects, even for a tricyclic:
> cognitive impairment (memory problems, word-finding difficulty, etc.),
> oversedation, weight gain, constipation, dry mouth, rapid heartbeat, etc. It is
> the most anticholinergic which is why it's supposed to be great for narcolepsy.
I'm currently taking amitriptyline (currently 75mg) and I have to say that
it's got fewer side-effects than most other ADs I've tried to date; in fact
I'm pleasantly surprised at how comparatively "gentle" it is compared with
SSRIs, dothiepin, venlafaxine, reboxetine, trazodone and others. The only
really notable side-effect is sedation, which is admittedly problematic in
the early days but soon decreases to the point where it's quite a handy
sleeping aid, but nothing more. I haven't experienced things like the
dry mouth/eyes, constipation, agitation, extremely variable appetite etc
that I got from the other TCA I've tried, dothiepin.
Chris.
Whitleydlm
been so dry, I feel like I had sand for breakfast).
-elizabeth>>
I have a filled prescription of Nortriptyline on the kitchen counter. I've
decided not to take it. One of the side-effect profiles I've read is similar
to what you've described for Elavil. I don't think I could stand much more in
term of memory problems.
This is my list of what I might take next:
• Amineptine (survector) If I can find it;
• Modafinil (Provigil in the US);
• Selegine (I-deprenyl) or Aurorix or Parnate
• Adderal combined with the Wellbutrin (max.
dosage) that I take now.
What do you think? I'm looking for improvement in mental clarity (a retrieval
of lost vocabulary, please), improved energy, (I've been on the couch for days
at times) and a restoration of the mental ability to grasp the concept of
"hope".
And oh ‚ yeah. I'd also like not to suffer a complete and total loss of
libido. I happen to like my husband.
laurie.
Whitleydlm
Eric,
Sounds like you're doing everything possible to beat this thing. I hope the
results are proportionate to your effort. If only....eh?
laurie.
Whitleydlm
I guarantee you'll get it post haste — unpaid bill or not.
laurie.
Whitleydlm
Certified mail, guys, certified mail. AND add "return-receipt-requested".
It works. i know.
Laurie
LostboyinNC
-- That sounds like valuable, specific information. Thanks Laurie. I
have been requesting that info now for about a month. I always talk to
the doc's personal secretary when I request it so I know my requests
are getting through, they just dont send it. It is very much getting on
my nerves. I may have to call the State Medical Board soon and have
them give them a little phone call. The board told me they will do that
sort of thing for me when I have requested medical records sent to me.
I do not want to do that though as this particular doctor seemed OK to
me except for this little episode of not sending my records. I dont
like to call the board if they seem like a good doctor. Well, anyway I
am sure I will get the info soon.
LostboyinNC
sha...@aol.comicrelief (Elizabeth Shapere) wrote:
> >-- yeah you might be right. The reason I say I might try Elavil is
> >because it is the gold standard tricyclic for headache prophylaxis.
>
> I guess so, but just because it's the first one that was used for
that, doesn't
> mean it's more effective than any of the others.
>
> >I have a lot of headaches ever since my hemorrhage thing almost two
> >years ago. Especially in wet, cold weather. Like sharp, stabbing
> >icepick like pain.
>
> What part of your head?
The best I can describe it is in the top part of my head in the back,
on both sides. But it is worse on the left side by far, which is where
the first hemorrhage happened. I had two hemorrhages, spaced a couple
weeks apart. The first time it occured only on the left side, the
second time it occured on both sides but was still worse on the left.
The right side is not very bad. The left side feels like a blood vessel
or some soft tissue up there just burst and totally popped. Both
occured the very first day I would increase the Remeron while on
Risperdal. I tried increasing the Remeron a few times as I had serious
trouble tolerating increasing the Remeron as long as I was on
Risperdal.
The pain is also just under the surface, like in the scalp. It never
has felt like it was deep in my head or anything. It does not hurt bad
much anymore, sometimes a dull ache, sometimes a sharp, stabbing
icepick pain. It used to hurt a lot more until I tried some Verapamil
for a few days but I swear ever since I tried Verapamil for it last May
it has not hurt nearly as badly. Also, ever since I tried the Verapmil,
it seems like the antidepressants work a little better. But the
verapamil reactivated my OCD though, but it calmed down and I am fine
in that department now. It is very weird that I had no OCD before the
hemorrhage. The hemorrhage activated OCD in me and eventually it calmed
down to absolutely no OCD. When I tried Verapamil while on no
antidepresant last May, the OCD flared up with a vengeance, just
exactly like it did when the hemorrhages occured originally. The
Verapamil changed the nature of the head pain a lot. It went from being
mostly sharp, stabbing icepick type pain, especially in wet, cold
weather before Verapamil, to being more of a dull, aching pain AFTER
Verapamil. And I was not on the Verapamil long either. Could not
tolerate it. I found the Verapamil made the head pain more of a dull,
throbbing pain like pressure was building up. And this continued even
after I quit the Verapamil. I found I could break up the headaches
after Verapamil by taking calcium/magnesium supplements. I guess the
Calcium/magnesium supplements break up whatever the calcium channel
blocker Verapamil did to me. I feel much, much better when I take
calcium/magnesium supplements every night.
I know all this sounds very, very weird, perhaps even bizarre. But it
is the honest truth about the way I feel. Very strange things happened
after the hemorrhages. And got even weirder after I tried Verapamil.
If I could get my hands on that info I could tell you the specifics of
it, the names of the blood vessels in my scalp, nerves affected, etc.
Well, I suppose I could, have not seen the info yet.
It just felt like the lithium totally blocked what antidepressant
effect I was getting from the Effexor XR. The lithium TOTALLY
flattened my mood and made me so...blah. Made me feel more depressed
again and very mechanical, robot like. Bored, more lethargic, decreased
sex drive...it was really bad. Everybody around me was really glad I
went off the lithium.
>
> >I get more depressed when an
> >augmentation agent is added. It is sad and unfortunate and I wonder
why
> >I cant mix psych drugs like others can?
>
> It might just be that the specific strategies you have tried have
made things
> worse. There's no reason why mixing in general would always cause you
problems.
Nah, I really cant mix meds. At least of the modern class. I am hoping
it will be maybe different with these older meds like the tricyclics
and MAOIs. Every med I have tried to mix did not work. I have tried
mixing the following. Remeron with low dose Risperdal, Zoloft and
Remeron, Remeron and Wellbutrin, Wellbutrin and Effexor XR, Effexor XR
and lithobid, Effexor XR and Neurontin. My docs gave up on trying to
mix meds on me and I dont blame them. Before I had the "hemorrhage" I
had successfuly mixed antidepressants one time. I had mixed low dose
Trazodone with Paxil successfully and things went fine. But I am sure
if I tried that now it would be different. Ever since the hemorrhage
thing the meds have just worked weird with me, the docs think it is
really weird. So they just write me off as treatment resistant.
I think the problem was the Remeron works mainly by blocking nerve
receptors, not thru serotonin reuptake. It blocks a lot of the same
nerve receptors Risperdal blocks I noticed. Remeron blocks 5-HT2
receptors and also Alpha-2 receptors, same as Risperdal blocks. I think
the Risperdal blocked the same stuff as the Remeron and somehow
something got blocked too much and I swear I could not feel a thing on
the mix. I had no idea of this stuff back then, just took the meds and
trusted my doc. I bet that "blocking" would not have occured had I been
on an SSRI or Effexor or something and not Remeron. I bet the Risperdal
would not have interfered with the antidepressant then. This is all
just my personal opinion and is very crude stuff, from my own reading,
etc. If I am wrong I realize someone reading this stuff could write me
off as psychotic maybe. Maybe I am psychotic.
But I do know for sure the Risperdal totally blocked the Remeron and
pressure just built up and up and up and when I tried increasing the
Remeron something popped. That I am absolutely positive about. Most of
the doctors think I am full of crap though when I tell them this stuff.
Only had a few take me serious. One psychiatrist and the two
neurologists I went to. All the others took my complaints in a purely
psychological context...ie. "psycho-somatic." I am sure a few maybe
even thought it was mild psychosis and just dont believe me. Overall,
the diagnosis for this coming from most psychiatrists I have told it to
is "psycho-somatic" illness. I think they are full of shit and just
dont want to admit something went wrong.
>
-- Eric
sdog
to get some side effects, but it still isn't at a therapuric dose. 225mg is
more like it.
Why is everyone going back to the old Trycyclic's / MAOI's ; we have come so
much further from that.
Depression with -
anxiety/insomnia - Paxil / Trazodone / Effexor XR / Remeron.
no energy - Wellbutrin / Prozac / Reboxetine
suicidal thoughts - novel antipsychotic with new AD - avoid
SSRI's
relapse - increase dose / switch SSRI / novel AD / augment with
Ritalin, Dexedrine, Wellbutrine (any dopamine agent).
I have had SEVERE DEPRESION for 3 years, three major overdoses.
Have now found relief on Effexor XR - 225mg / Seroxat(paxil USA) - 40 mg and
prozac as needed. I also take phentermine (Adipex -P/ Ionomin / part of
PhenFen) daily to boost my dopamine levels and to keep my weight down - I
have lost 4 stone in 4 months 13st 8lbs to 9st 6lbs. - Male 24, 5'8" which
has helped my depression. TAKE NOTE : Paxil is the SSRI which causes more
weight gain than the others, but it is the BEST for anxiety, depression,
insomnia, low self esteem, OCD, shyness - It changed my life BIG TIME!
All take care
sdog (scotland)UK
Elizabeth Shapere
>it's got fewer side-effects than most other ADs I've tried to date
75 mg is not a very high dose. 50 or 75 mg is a typical dose for insomnia or
neuropathic pain; for depression, 75 is the low end of the dose range. Of
course, it's really your plasma concentrations that count.
BTW, in regard to anticholinergic effects, my doctor prescribed bethanechol.
Annoying thing: it doesn't last very long (something tells me I'm going to be
taking it like 5 times a day).
-elizabeth
Elizabeth Shapere
Good thought...
>• Modafinil (Provigil in the US);
Good for alertness, probably won't help with memory. Some people use it for
ADD.
>• Selegine (I-deprenyl) or Aurorix or Parnate
I wouldn't bother with moclobemide (Manerix in Canada and the UK, BTW). Near as
I can figure, it has an efficacy profile similar to the SSRIs. Now, it might
work where other things haven't, but if you're in the US it will be a pain to
get (and expensive, too -- I'm guessing prescription insurance won't cover
stuff from overseas).
>• Adderal combined with the Wellbutrin (max.
> dosage) that I take now.
Another interesting idea (though again, more for concentration than for
memory). Ever tried any other stimulants?
>What do you think? I'm looking for improvement in mental clarity (a
>retrieval
>of lost vocabulary, please), improved energy, (I've been on the couch for
>days
>at times) and a restoration of the mental ability to grasp the concept of
>"hope".
Something that has been used here and there -- I think I've mentioned this to
you before -- is Aricept, the newer of the two reversible cholinesterase
inhibitors used for Alzheimer's disease. (Cognex, the other one, has more risk
for liver damage.)
-elizabeth
Elizabeth Shapere
>much further from that.
Because they work better than the newer drugs for some conditions. Duh.
I find the MAOIs as tolerable as SSRIs, and MAOIs actually *work* for me (SSRIs
do not). Wellbutrin was overstimulating and worsened a number of my symptoms
(anxiety, insomnia, anorexia). Serzone did nothing at all except fragment what
little sleep I was getting. Atypical neuroleptics make me feel apathetic; they
don't relieve my suicidal thoughts (I think that mainly applies to people with
"agitated" depression). Effexor came closest to working, but I had an episode
of serotonin syndrome on it. Stimulants have helped but are not sufficient by
themselves. And I prefer not to try Remeron because of the weight gain issue --
why would I do that when I know that MAOIs work?
Please don't try to generalize your drug reactions to other people. It simply
isn't possible. Paxil may be the "best" for you, but it did nothing good for me
(it did cause some anxiety and hypomania).
-elizabeth
Chris Hedley
sha...@aol.comicrelief (Elizabeth Shapere) writes:
> 75 mg is not a very high dose. 50 or 75 mg is a typical dose for insomnia or
> neuropathic pain; for depression, 75 is the low end of the dose range. Of
> course, it's really your plasma concentrations that count.
I was originally supposed to be going to 150mg (the max stated in the BNF,
I'm not sure what it is elsewhere) but for various reasons increased the
dosage more slowly and ended up on 75mg; not that it makes much difference
now as I'll be adding moclobemide to it in under a week... I'd hoped that
it'd help with the pain a bit, but so far it hasn't, but I guess that I've
had that so long I'm almost used to it anyway.
> BTW, in regard to anticholinergic effects, my doctor prescribed bethanechol.
> Annoying thing: it doesn't last very long (something tells me I'm going to be
> taking it like 5 times a day).
Don't think I've heard of that one before, I'll have to look it up. Good
luck with it, even if it does have a somewhat frenetic schedule...
Chris.
Chris Hedley
"sdog" <sd...@tinyworld.co.uk> writes:
> The dose of Amyltriptaline is far too low for a start. |It is high enough
> to get some side effects, but it still isn't at a therapuric dose. 225mg is
> more like it.
I thought that the theraputic dose range was something like 75 - 150mg,
doses like 225mg would be for hospitalised patients only - or me! :)
> Why is everyone going back to the old Trycyclic's / MAOI's ; we have come so
> much further from that.
Because they work. By and large, the newer drugs' most notable feature is
that they're safer, particularly in overdose (which can't be overstated when
the most frequently used drug in successful suicide attempts in many places
is dothiepin, a TCA) But the older things like TCAs and MAOIs, for all
their warts, still tend to be the most effective treatments.
> Depression with -
> anxiety/insomnia - Paxil / Trazodone / Effexor XR / Remeron.
> no energy - Wellbutrin / Prozac / Reboxetine
> suicidal thoughts - novel antipsychotic with new AD - avoid
> SSRI's
> relapse - increase dose / switch SSRI / novel AD / augment with
> Ritalin, Dexedrine, Wellbutrine (any dopamine agent).
Tried that lot, excepting bupropion (not available 'til next year in the UK,
as you should know, and even then just in its Zyban guise) and the assorted
stimulants. Also haven't tried "novel antipsychotics" but have certainly
been exposed to plenty of the others. As for the new/novel ADs, can't think
of any I haven't tried offhand. Oh, I also haven't bothered with fluoxetine,
but I have been on all four other SSRIs.
> I have had SEVERE DEPRESION for 3 years, three major overdoses.
>
> Have now found relief on Effexor XR - 225mg / Seroxat(paxil USA) - 40 mg and
> prozac as needed.
Both Seroxat and Efexor XL drove my agitation and anxiety to pretty nutty
extremes, I wasn't very happy with them.
> I also take phentermine (Adipex -P/ Ionomin / part of
> PhenFen) daily to boost my dopamine levels and to keep my weight down -
I'm quite interested in that from a dopamine boosting perspective, although
phentermine makes me feel somewhat uneasy because of the bad press it got in
the recent past.
> I
> have lost 4 stone in 4 months 13st 8lbs to 9st 6lbs. - Male 24, 5'8" which
> has helped my depression. TAKE NOTE : Paxil is the SSRI which causes more
> weight gain than the others, but it is the BEST for anxiety, depression,
> insomnia, low self esteem, OCD, shyness - It changed my life BIG TIME!
I've taken two courses of paroxetine and it escalated the effects you mention
by a considerable margin, although I suspect that in the second case it may
have something to do with the dose being increased too quickly, and possibly
too high for me at the time.
BTW, not wishing to sound derogatory or anything, but I'd have thought that
9 1/2 stone is a bit low for someone of your height - I'm not much taller,
and at that weight I was far too skinny...
Chris.
Chris Hedley
sha...@aol.comicrelief (Elizabeth Shapere) writes:
> I wouldn't bother with moclobemide (Manerix in Canada and the UK, BTW). Near as
> I can figure, it has an efficacy profile similar to the SSRIs. Now, it might
> work where other things haven't, but if you're in the US it will be a pain to
> get (and expensive, too -- I'm guessing prescription insurance won't cover
> stuff from overseas).
Interesting thing about moclobemide is that I've heard tell that the
recommended dosages are way too low, which may explain its lack of
efficacy in some people. It's maximum dosage is often listed as 600mg,
but at a recent appointment I was told that the revised dosage should
be at least 900mg, although I guess that's straying into the area where
it's probably subject to the same restrictions as the other MAOIs.
Chris.
LostboyinNC
who saw me. It was a lot different than what he told me that day in the
office. His assessment is:
"I think Eric probably had something subcutaneous happen at the onset
of these symptoms. That is what he describes. I do not think it was
anything intracranial, but rather something in the scalp on the left
occiput that is now resolved. How that relates to the medication
exactly and how or if this has any relationship to the resistance to
treatment is unknown to me and I have told him that I cannot relate
those two entities. However, I do think he needs to continue on his
therapy and obviously be treated for his depression."
This is what is written on my medical notes and this was sent to a few
of my psychiatrists. However, that day in the office when he saw me he
told he "I think you probably had a hemorrhage under your scalp" and he
also told me he thought I had some nerves in my scalp that were
irritated from this. But he didnt get specific like that on the notes
he sent to the various Pdocs.
The other neurologist I went to for the problem said this on their
report:
"IMPRESSION: Otherwise healthy 30 year old man with severe depression
who is having headaches that do sound like vascular headaches. They may
have been related to the combination of the medications as he thinks
that they are but I am concerned about the feeling that he describes as
a popping or bursting sensation. I doubt very much that he did have a
subarachnoid hemorrhage or has an aneurysm. I think most likely that
these are vascular headaches. Why his depression is worse and the
antidepressant is not working, I do not know.
PLAN: I have suggested that he have a CT angiogram to rule out
aneurysm. I think that the risk of aneurysm is quite low but I still
think that this should be done. It is not an emergency procedure since
the headaches have been going on for a year now. I
I think he would probably be a candidate for tricyclic antidepressants
which would help the headaches and possibly help his depression. He is
concerned about the possibility of weight gain with tricyclics."
Oh well, Ive hammered it into the ground, I know it affected the
medication. I know it will never be straightened out or anything. Guess
I will just have to survive the best I can, which has not been very
good. Maybe the tricyclics will help a lot?
Eric
Elizabeth Shapere
recalled to me. I am a little confused as to what you think is different.
I think he is right that SC hemorrhage would not affect your medication
response. Consider the possibility that the two things happened at the same
time but were unrelated (the hemorrhage may have been due to the medication, or
it may have been coincidence, but your medication resistance is most likely
unrelated to the hemorrhage).
>I know it will never be straightened out or anything. Guess
>I will just have to survive the best I can, which has not been very
>good. Maybe the tricyclics will help a lot?
They probably will help with the headaches (though MAOIs might also; I know
they've been used for migraines with success in the past).
I could tell you not to be so pessimistic, but I know that doesn't do any good
when you're depressed. Take care.
-elizabeth
Elizabeth Shapere
>I'm not sure what it is elsewhere)
150 is a pretty reasonable high-end dose. I still think getting a serum level
would be in order.
>but for various reasons increased the
>dosage more slowly and ended up on 75mg;
Huh, what were the various reasons, since you seem to be tolerating it okay?
>not that it makes much difference
>now as I'll be adding moclobemide to it in under a week...
Let's hear it for MAOI-TCA combos!
>I'd hoped that
>it'd help with the pain a bit, but so far it hasn't, but I guess that I've
>had that so long I'm almost used to it anyway.
Refresh my memory...you have chronic pain?
>Don't think I've heard of that one before, I'll have to look it up. Good
>luck with it, even if it does have a somewhat frenetic schedule...
Bethanechol is a cholinergic agonist, to counter the dry mouth thing. I'm sort
of considering ditching nortriptyline anyway, though. :-/
-elizabeth
Elizabeth Shapere
>doses like 225mg would be for hospitalised patients only - or me! :)
Chris is right. Amitriptyline and nortriptyline have a therapeutic window and
are dosed lower than the iminodibenzyl-type TCAs (imipramine & co.). But it
can't be overemphasized that the important thing is serum level, not dose.
>By and large, the newer drugs' most notable feature is
>that they're safer, particularly in overdose (which can't be overstated when
>the most frequently used drug in successful suicide attempts in many places
>is dothiepin, a TCA)
It's amitriptyline in the U.S., where dothiepin isn't available.
>But the older things like TCAs and MAOIs, for all
>their warts, still tend to be the most effective treatments.
MAOIs yes, I tend to agree; I'm less sanguine about TCAs, which seem to have a
limited range of usefulness. Basically it seem to me that TCAs and SSRIs work
for different people. (I still think that people who don't respond to SSRIs
should consider Effexor before TCAs. For that matter, MAOIs are probably a
better second or third choice than TCAs in many cases.)
>Tried that lot, excepting bupropion (not available 'til next year in the UK,
>as you should know, and even then just in its Zyban guise) and the assorted
>stimulants.
So you're gonna have to pretend to be quitting smoking in order to get
bupropion? <g> I think it's not available in a lot of places.
Say, can you get any of the interesting ones like lofepramine, minaprine,
amineptine, tianeptine, etc. in the UK?
>Also haven't tried "novel antipsychotics" but have certainly
>been exposed to plenty of the others.
The atypicals are just different, somehow: they work for a lot of people who
don't respond to the older ones, and even I could distinguish their subjective
effects (though neither helped).
>Oh, I also haven't bothered with fluoxetine,
>but I have been on all four other SSRIs.
Prozac is cool 'cause it doesn't have withdrawal symptoms much, but if you're
considering MAOIs there is that waiting period to consider (2 weeks for other
SSRIs, 5 for Prozac!).
>Both Seroxat and Efexor XL drove my agitation and anxiety to pretty nutty
>extremes, I wasn't very happy with them.
Did you start at low doses? (e.g., 5mg, or even 2.5, of paroxetine) That's SOP
for people with severe anxiety (for SSRIs, Effexor, and TCAs, though not,
interestingly enough, MAOIs).
>I'm quite interested in that from a dopamine boosting perspective, although
>phentermine makes me feel somewhat uneasy because of the bad press it got in
>the recent past.
If you're referring to the weight loss drugs/heart valve damage scandal,
phentermine wasn't the cause; fenfluramine was. Phentermine is just another
weak quasi-amphetamine.
>BTW, not wishing to sound derogatory or anything, but I'd have thought that
>9 1/2 stone is a bit low for someone of your height - I'm not much taller,
>and at that weight I was far too skinny...
Uh, what is a stone again???
-elizabeth the ignorant American
LostboyinNC
sha...@aol.comicrelief (Elizabeth Shapere) wrote:
> Hi Eric. Your doctor's assessment sounds pretty consistent with what
you
> recalled to me. I am a little confused as to what you think is
different.
well, in the official assessment on paper he does not mention the word
hemorrhage, he just says "something subcutaneous." That could be a lot
of things, leaves it up in the air.
>
> I think he is right that SC hemorrhage would not affect your
medication
> response. Consider the possibility that the two things happened at
the same
> time but were unrelated (the hemorrhage may have been due to the
medication, or
> it may have been coincidence, but your medication resistance is most
likely
> unrelated to the hemorrhage).
Nah, it was related to the medication somehow. Both times it happened
it occured while trying to increase Remeron while on Risperdal. After
the hemorrhage occured, it felt mushy up there and hurt. Was actually
tender to the touch too. And I no longer felt the pressure up there I
had felt, like the pressure was relieved. Instead of all the pressure i
had been feeling I then felt mushy, soggy and pain up there. Then the
antidepressant quit working. I would compare the "pressure" to a prime
in a pump. Lose the prime and you cant pump water. Well, it felt like I
lost the prime in my head up there...this is so fucked up the way I am
describing it...makes me sound like a psycho idiot...and when the prime
was gone after the hemorrhage, the antidepressant would not hit at
night like it had before. It always hit me later in the day, know what
I mean?
At the time I was very, very confused as to what happened and actually
kind of blew it off some. Had no idea I had a hemorrhage, had no clue.
>
> >I know it will never be straightened out or anything. Guess
> >I will just have to survive the best I can, which has not been very
> >good. Maybe the tricyclics will help a lot?
>
> They probably will help with the headaches (though MAOIs might also;
I know
> they've been used for migraines with success in the past).
>
> I could tell you not to be so pessimistic, but I know that doesn't do
any good
> when you're depressed. Take care.
yeah I heard MAOIs are real good for headaches. I have some hope for
the MAOIs, and tricyclics too.
Eric
--
Steroids caused my depression...prednisone should be illegal.
LostboyinNC
> >But the older things like TCAs and MAOIs, for all
> >their warts, still tend to be the most effective treatments.
>
> MAOIs yes, I tend to agree; I'm less sanguine about TCAs, which seem
to have a
> limited range of usefulness.
Well, I do know the MAOIs are very, very strong and unique drugs. I am
sure overall, yeah, MAOIs are more effective than TCAs. But the TCAs
have a GOOD reputation for combatting severe depression, especially
melancholic depression. Are you sure you are not influenced too much by
your personal bias towards TCAs? I have noticed you are not especially
enthused about them. But many have been helped by them and tolerate
them OK.
Basically it seem to me that TCAs and SSRIs work
> for different people. (I still think that people who don't respond to
SSRIs
> should consider Effexor before TCAs.
I agree with that one. So far Effexor has been the best antidepressant
for me. Its a good drug, though with some rough side effects at higher
doses. But honestly, who cares? Im glad to just feel better.
Eric
Elizabeth Shapere
>hemorrhage, he just says "something subcutaneous." That could be a lot
>of things, leaves it up in the air.
Probably intentional. <g> Hemorrhage is just medico-babble for "bleeding," so
I'm not sure what else it *would* be. (Anyone?)
>Nah, it was related to the medication somehow. Both times it happened
>it occured while trying to increase Remeron while on Risperdal.
Right, it might have been *caused by* the medication combination, but I doubt
that it *caused* your refractory-ness.
>At the time I was very, very confused as to what happened and actually
>kind of blew it off some. Had no idea I had a hemorrhage, had no clue.
Again...the word "hemorrhage" sounds a lot scarier than it really is!
>yeah I heard MAOIs are real good for headaches. I have some hope for
>the MAOIs, and tricyclics too.
Good. Whatever you feel you've lost, it's good that you still have hope.
Take care.
-elizabeth
Chris Hedley
sha...@aol.comicrelief (Elizabeth Shapere) writes:
> 150 is a pretty reasonable high-end dose. I still think getting a serum level
> would be in order.
... of course that rarely happens because the amount of extra labour
required to do blood tests & stuff for everyone would be too expensive
both in terms of time and money. Sad, but that's the way it is.
> Huh, what were the various reasons, since you seem to be tolerating it okay?
Mainly because I was doing a lot of driving at the same time I started
taking it, and didn't want to be hit by the initial sedative effects
that it gives, so I took a smaller dose and sort of settled on 75mg.
There isn't much point in increasing it now as I'll be having my
treatment reviewed in a few days... I must admit that I'm surprised that
I'm tolerant of the side-effects since I usually get the whole lot!
> Let's hear it for MAOI-TCA combos!
:)
> Refresh my memory...you have chronic pain?
A bit; not in terms of severity, I mean I can live with it, but it just
won't go away (although taking lorazepam sometimes provides a brief
respite)
> Bethanechol is a cholinergic agonist, to counter the dry mouth thing. I'm sort
> of considering ditching nortriptyline anyway, though. :-/
Why's that, just out of curiousity? Are the other side-effects still
too much, is the agonist not working, or just general lack of efficacy?
Chris.
Chris Hedley
sha...@aol.comicrelief (Elizabeth Shapere) writes:
> It's amitriptyline in the U.S., where dothiepin isn't available.
It's another one of those things where it's tempting to say that they're
chemically virtually identical, differing only by one atom, but that
makes all the difference to what they actually do. One of the medical
texts I've read seemed to highlight that the major difference between
the two in practical terms is that dothiepin's much more toxic!
> MAOIs yes, I tend to agree; I'm less sanguine about TCAs, which seem to have a
> limited range of usefulness. Basically it seem to me that TCAs and SSRIs work
> for different people. (I still think that people who don't respond to SSRIs
> should consider Effexor before TCAs. For that matter, MAOIs are probably a
> better second or third choice than TCAs in many cases.)
I think that TCAs have more to offer in that they have a wider effects
profile than SSRIs, although that cuts both ways as some of the additional
effects may or may not be seen as desirable depending on the individual.
Must admit I didn't really get on with Efexor, although judging by the
amount of comments it generates I guess it must work well for plenty of
other people...
As for the MAOIs, I'm still curious if moclobemide at high doses is really
any safer than its older cousins, since the latter aren't being made
available to me.
> So you're gonna have to pretend to be quitting smoking in order to get
> bupropion? <g> I think it's not available in a lot of places.
It's a bit irritating since it's developed by Glaxo Wellcome who I believe
have their headquarters over here, so I don't know why they seem to be
so reticent about marketing it in this country. Probably a political
thing, I suppose.
> Say, can you get any of the interesting ones like lofepramine, minaprine,
> amineptine, tianeptine, etc. in the UK?
Lofepramine's available, and is quite widely prescribed; amineptine, from
my understanding, has been pulled off the market in various countries by
the manufacturer (more politics), although is available in places like
France and Spain (thanks for the info on that one, M); the BNF makes no
reference to the other two, although whether they can be obtained by some
sort of special licence I'm not sure.
> The atypicals are just different, somehow: they work for a lot of people who
> don't respond to the older ones, and even I could distinguish their subjective
> effects (though neither helped).
I'm still not sure why they don't seem (in my experience) to be more
widely used; it's tempting to say it's a cost thing, but that doesn't
ring true as it doesn't stop mass prescriptions of expensive SSRIs when
there're cheapo TCAs and MAOIs in abundance.
> Prozac is cool 'cause it doesn't have withdrawal symptoms much, but if you're
> considering MAOIs there is that waiting period to consider (2 weeks for other
> SSRIs, 5 for Prozac!).
It's my understanding that the long half-life is about the only outstanding
feature of fluoxetine, although I think I'd view that as more of a hindrance
than a benefit! I must admit I haven't really experienced much in the way
of withdrawal symptoms when coming off a med, except perhaps for a few
nights of bizarre dreams.
> Did you start at low doses? (e.g., 5mg, or even 2.5, of paroxetine) That's SOP
> for people with severe anxiety (for SSRIs, Effexor, and TCAs, though not,
> interestingly enough, MAOIs).
First time I took paroxetine I started slowly, and it worked fine; second
time I started very quickly and it didn't work, which is I suspect the
reason. I probably did the same thing with venlafaxine, but it's so long
ago I don't really remember.
> If you're referring to the weight loss drugs/heart valve damage scandal,
> phentermine wasn't the cause; fenfluramine was. Phentermine is just another
> weak quasi-amphetamine.
That's what I was thinking of; thanks for setting me straight on the matter.
> Uh, what is a stone again???
14 pounds or, er, several kilogrammes. :)
Chris.
Whitleydlm
amineptine, tianeptine, etc. in the UK?
>>
Elizabeth:
The Malaysian mfg. of Survector (the only amineptine product I know of)
discontinued production in January of 1999. They caved in to the research
(which unfortunately was abundant) on addiction problems. Interesting though
-- nothing gets that much research money spent on it ( I can't think of an
industrialized country that wasn't studying it!) if it wasn't highly promising.
Amineptine had a number of research groups very excited at one point.
I haven't found minaprine on UK-based mail order companies on the net. Still
looking....
laurie.
Whitleydlm
I think you should go forward with the CT angiogram. How many times do we hear
of cases where a patient insisted on checking something out that the doctors
didn't feel was necessary — and that something new was found that other
diagnoses had missed.
Most of medical diagnoses work involves ruling stuff out. Get it done just in
case, eh?
laurie.
Whitleydlm
with memory. Some people use it for ADD. >>
Alertness is good. : )
I'll drop the Moclobemide from my prospect list. Thanks for the input.
<<I'm guessing prescription insurance won't cover
stuff from overseas).>>
I wouldn't think so.
<<>• Adderal combined with the Wellbutrin: Another interesting idea (though
again, more for concentration than for
memory). Ever tried any other stimulants?>>
Ritalin and for a very short time, dexedrine.
Not enough to consider a true trial. Maybe I should push for that option (?)
<<Something that has been used here and there -- I think I've mentioned this to
you before -- is Aricept, the newer of the two reversible cholinesterase
inhibitors used for Alzheimer's disease. (Cognex, the other one, has more risk
for liver damage.)>>
Yes, you have mentioned Aricept, , but you haven't said much about it, and I'm
unfamiliar with the term "cholinesterase".
Can you tell me (us) more please?
thanks.
laurie
LostboyinNC
-- Laurie, I had that CT angiogram done last March LOL. Sorry about the
miscommunication. It came back fine.
Elizabeth Shapere
>required to do blood tests & stuff for everyone would be too expensive
>both in terms of time and money. Sad, but that's the way it is.
You guys have that problem too, then? That bites. Exactly how does the NHS
function? (I'm sure you've heard all the standard rants about managed care, the
current big thing in this country.)
>Mainly because I was doing a lot of driving at the same time I started
>taking it, and didn't want to be hit by the initial sedative effects
>that it gives, so I took a smaller dose and sort of settled on 75mg.
>There isn't much point in increasing it now as I'll be having my
>treatment reviewed in a few days... I must admit that I'm surprised that
>I'm tolerant of the side-effects since I usually get the whole lot!
Well, it will be interesting to hear what comes out of the treatment review.
>> Refresh my memory...you have chronic pain?
>
>A bit; not in terms of severity, I mean I can live with it, but it just
>won't go away (although taking lorazepam sometimes provides a brief
>respite)
What body part? I had chronic back pain for about 4 years (10/95-9/99);
currently it seems to have disappeared for the most part, but it's done this
before and come back later so I'm not counting on anything.
>Why's that, just out of curiousity? Are the other side-effects still
>too much, is the agonist not working, or just general lack of efficacy?
Haven't picked up the bethanechol from the pharmacy yet (waiting for the
Marplan to come in so I don't have to make 2 trips - the only pharmacy in the
Boston area that takes my insurance is a pain to get to from here), but it
seems like it won't be much use since it only lasts an hour. And if I can
barely tolerate nortriptyline at 50mg (which probably isn't enough to work), it
doesn't seem worthwhile to continue. I might try desipramine or amoxapine, but
I'm having a hard time remembering what made me think that adding a tricyclic
would be useful. (Maybe the memory loss is just due to the anticholinergic
effects of the nortriptyline, though, and I'll remember again after I stop the
TCA. <g>)
-elizabeth
Elizabeth Shapere
Well, that's just my personal opinion. Some people do well on it after failing
other meds, so it might well be worth checking out. I still think the hassle of
ordering it from outside the U.S. is too much, though.
><<>• Adderal combined with the Wellbutrin: Another interesting idea (though
>again, more for concentration than for
>memory). Ever tried any other stimulants?>>
>
>Ritalin and for a very short time, dexedrine.
>Not enough to consider a true trial. Maybe I should push for that option (?)
A "true trial" of stimulants isn't necessarily as long as for antidepressants.
One reason they are often prescribed for medically ill depressed patients is
because they work fast.
Don't push *too* hard or your doctor may accuse you of "drug seeking behavior"
(LOL). (I don't know how good a relationship you have with your doc.)
>Yes, you have mentioned Aricept, , but you haven't said much about it, and
>I'm unfamiliar with the term "cholinesterase".
Cholinesterases are a family of enzymes. The relevant one is
acetylcholinesterase (AChE), which catalyzes the metabolism of acetylcholine.
Basically, as far as I can tell, Aricept does to acetylcholine what moclobemide
does to serotonin and norepinephrine. (There are also irreversible AChE
inhibitors; these are sometimes used as pesticides and chemical weapons.)
-elizabeth
Elizabeth Shapere
>sure overall, yeah, MAOIs are more effective than TCAs. But the TCAs
>have a GOOD reputation for combatting severe depression, especially
>melancholic depression.
Well, my point is that they clearly work in melancholic depression, panic
disorder, and a few non-psychiatric conditions (neuropathic pain, vascular and
migraine headaches, narcolepsy (mainly amitriptyline and protriptyline)), but
that seems to be about it. For most of the common depression-related conditions
(dysthymia, social phobia, atypical depression, OCD, ADHD (except perhaps
desipramine, but I'd avoid that in kids), PMDD, PTSD, bulimia nervosa, etc.)
they really seem not to be very useful compared with MAOIs and the newer drugs
(with the possible exception of clomipramine).
>Are you sure you are not influenced too much by
>your personal bias towards TCAs? I have noticed you are not especially
>enthused about them. But many have been helped by them and tolerate
>them OK.
I agree; I just think their range of efficacy is limited pretty much to
"classic" depression and panic disorder (and in PD, the ones that don't affect
serotonin (maprotiline, desipramine, amoxapine, etc.) are ineffective or less
effective as well). Also, they appear to be bigger risks in bipolar disorder
than the MAOIs or SSRIs. And they can dangerous for people with a variety of
medical conditions, such as epilepsy (especially maprotiline and clomipramine),
diabetes (especially amitriptyline), ischemic heart disease, post-CVA,
dementias, angle-closure glaucoma, heart conduction disease, ventricular
arrhythmias, and congestive heart failure. They can also be problematic for the
bipolar, psychotic, or medically ill patient who is taking other medications,
because of drug-drug interactions (in particular, interactions that can raise
TCA levels dangerously - I did mention the low therapeutic index right?).
A lot of the people who haven't responded to SSRIs (many of whom show up on
this newsgroup) have unusual, mixed presentations - they've been told they
might have "obsessive-compulsive tendencies," "subclinical ADHD," anxiety
associated with depression, social phobia, "probable atypical depression,"
"atypical bipolar II disorder," etc. I don't think tricyclics are such a great
choice for these people.
(Heck, I've read that there is a possibility that tricyclics can make atypical
depression and "borderline personality disorder" *worse*.)
>I agree with that one. So far Effexor has been the best antidepressant
>for me. Its a good drug, though with some rough side effects at higher
>doses. But honestly, who cares? Im glad to just feel better.
Ideally it would be good to avoid the side effects too, though!
-elizabeth
LostboyinNC
sha...@aol.comicrelief (Elizabeth Shapere) wrote:
> >well, in the official assessment on paper he does not mention the
word
> >hemorrhage, he just says "something subcutaneous." That could be a
lot
> >of things, leaves it up in the air.
>
> Probably intentional. <g> Hemorrhage is just medico-babble
for "bleeding," so
> I'm not sure what else it *would* be. (Anyone?)
yeah, I always got the impression from the docs whenever I mentioned
this problem that there was a lot of butt covering or cover your ass
going on. I might call him and ask him to change it, to
say "hemorrhage" cause what he says leaves a lot to be desired in my
opinion. He was more specific in the office with me.
>
> >Nah, it was related to the medication somehow. Both times it happened
> >it occured while trying to increase Remeron while on Risperdal.
>
> Right, it might have been *caused by* the medication combination, but
I doubt
> that it *caused* your refractory-ness.
Hmmmm well, I guess so. But why did the meds quit working immediately
after this? Instead of a nightly intense buildup of antidepressant
pressure feeling, all I got then was this nightly mushy feeling, like I
had wet paper towels stuffed in my head or something. I think there was
a relationship there. I just dont think they want to admit it...cause
theoretically it could lead to that greatly feared word in modern
medicine...malpractice lawsuit. REally that is what I think has been
going on.
>
> >At the time I was very, very confused as to what happened and
actually
> >kind of blew it off some. Had no idea I had a hemorrhage, had no
clue.
>
> Again...the word "hemorrhage" sounds a lot scarier than it really is!
well, I never did think it was a deep intracranial hemorrhage. It
depends where the hemorrhage occured. Deep in your brain and you have
immediate big time problems. Where mine occured, well just discomfort,
headaches and maybe the blood vessels up there are not quite working up
to par? One weird thing and this has been totally
unanticipated/involuntary on my part is this. The meds are very
dependent on the type of weather. I do get a partial response from the
meds but whenever there is wet weather, especially wet, cold weather
the meds totally shut down. It has been like this ever since the
hemorrhage. I have increased pain up there during wet, cold weather and
also the antidepressants just quit working totally. Weird huh? Like Im
a weatherman now.
>
> >yeah I heard MAOIs are real good for headaches. I have some hope for
> >the MAOIs, and tricyclics too.
>
> Good. Whatever you feel you've lost, it's good that you still have
hope.
Yeah, I do have some hope left but it is fading everyday. If one of
these drugs would pull me out of it I would love it. I would more than
anything love to have my old life back.
Eric
>
--
Elizabeth Shapere
>looking....
Try France.
-elizabeth
Elizabeth Shapere
>chemically virtually identical, differing only by one atom, but that
>makes all the difference to what they actually do.
Do you happen to know the IUPAC name for dothiepin? I haven't been able to find
much on it.
>One of the medical
>texts I've read seemed to highlight that the major difference between
>the two in practical terms is that dothiepin's much more toxic!
Greeeeat. <g>
>I think that TCAs have more to offer in that they have a wider effects
>profile than SSRIs, although that cuts both ways as some of the additional
>effects may or may not be seen as desirable depending on the individual.
Wider pharmacological effects, but not necessarily wider benefits to patients!
They tend not to work so great in presentations of depression that aren't
"classic."
>Must admit I didn't really get on with Efexor, although judging by the
>amount of comments it generates I guess it must work well for plenty of
>other people...
I think so too, though my experience with it was rather disastrous!
>As for the MAOIs, I'm still curious if moclobemide at high doses is really
>any safer than its older cousins, since the latter aren't being made
>available to me.
No clue. Why won't those paternalistic freaks let you try tranylcypromine?
>It's a bit irritating since it's developed by Glaxo Wellcome who I believe
>have their headquarters over here, so I don't know why they seem to be
>so reticent about marketing it in this country. Probably a political
>thing, I suppose.
The seizure thing, I suspect. That kept it off the market in the U.S. and
Canada for a long time.
>Lofepramine's available, and is quite widely prescribed;
Ever try it?
>amineptine, from
>my understanding, has been pulled off the market in various countries by
>the manufacturer (more politics)
<gag, choke>
>although is available in places like
>France and Spain (thanks for the info on that one, M)
Useful to know, yeah. (France has a lot of promising ADs that are not found
elsewhere.)
>the BNF makes no
>reference to the other two, although whether they can be obtained by some
>sort of special licence I'm not sure.
Minaprine (Cantor) can be gotten in France. I'm not sure about tianeptine
offhand. Both have novel mechanisms that might make them attractive to someone
who's had trouble finding an AD that works.
>I'm still not sure why they don't seem (in my experience) to be more
>widely used; it's tempting to say it's a cost thing, but that doesn't
>ring true as it doesn't stop mass prescriptions of expensive SSRIs when
>there're cheapo TCAs and MAOIs in abundance.
Atypical antipsychotics are even more expensive than SSRIs (e.g., Zyprexa runs
around $5/pill). A script for thioridazine plus benztropine (an anticholinergic
(more side effects!), to prevent EPS) is still cheaper.
BTW, my doctor says he's had some interesting results with molindone (Moban), a
relatively nonsedating antipsychotic with the notable distinction of apparently
not causing weight gain. If it's available there it might be worth checking
out. (My own experience with it was just *weird*.)
>It's my understanding that the long half-life is about the only outstanding
>feature of fluoxetine, although I think I'd view that as more of a hindrance
>than a benefit! I must admit I haven't really experienced much in the way
>of withdrawal symptoms when coming off a med, except perhaps for a few
>nights of bizarre dreams.
The long half-life is a 2-edged sword. IME, antidepressants don't really cause
withdrawal symptoms so much if you've only been taking them for a few weeks.
>First time I took paroxetine I started slowly, and it worked fine; second
>time I started very quickly and it didn't work, which is I suspect the
>reason. I probably did the same thing with venlafaxine, but it's so long
>ago I don't really remember.
Perhaps it would be worthwhile to give one of those another try (this time
exercising patience <g>).
>> Uh, what is a stone again???
>
>14 pounds or, er, several kilogrammes. :)
Thanks!
-elizabeth
Chris Hedley
sha...@aol.comicrelief (Elizabeth Shapere) writes:
> Do you happen to know the IUPAC name for dothiepin? I haven't been able to find
> much on it.
Wot's IUPAC? If you mean the full chemical name, I'm not sure, except
that as I recall, it's the same structure as amitriptyline only a nitrogen
atom's been replaced with a sulphur one. The alternative name for the
drug is dosulepin hydrochloride, if that's any help...
> Greeeeat. <g>
I suppose that does make it a bit odd in that it's one of the most
frequently precribed ADs both here and in numerous other countries, but
I think that it's not just that it costs bugger all but it's also pretty
effective.
> Wider pharmacological effects, but not necessarily wider benefits to patients!
> They tend not to work so great in presentations of depression that aren't
> "classic."
That's true, although I find that the antihistamine effect is useful in
that it enables me to get some sleep (he says, posting after midnight)
Their noradrenaline reuptake inhibiting quality which the SSRIs lack is
also useful for many people.
> I think so too, though my experience with it was rather disastrous!
Er, the same here. I remember that my psychotherapist asked me to do a
sort of daily diary of my anxiety levels; I'd worked out a scale, and
when I was on venlafaxine it went up to about 120%. Oops.
> No clue. Why won't those paternalistic freaks let you try tranylcypromine?
Absolutely no idea; except that they seem to have got wind of me, erm,
"experimenting" with things that might cause an HT crisis shortly before
having my BP checked on a couple of occasions.
> The seizure thing, I suspect. That kept it off the market in the U.S. and
> Canada for a long time.
I suppose that could be the case, although the cynical part of me suggests
that it was an effort to keep a drug off the markets that might make people
feel too good because it might get abused.
> Ever try it?
I haven't, although Liz has; it apparently worked quite well for a while
before it decided to give up.
> Useful to know, yeah. (France has a lot of promising ADs that are not found
> elsewhere.)
That's one thing about France, it seems to do its own thing regardless of
what anyone else might think. Good luck to them, I say.
> Atypical antipsychotics are even more expensive than SSRIs (e.g., Zyprexa runs
> around $5/pill). A script for thioridazine plus benztropine (an anticholinergic
> (more side effects!), to prevent EPS) is still cheaper.
I suppose that figures. I had a thought rattling around in the back of
my mind when I posted previously that the newer antipsychotics were
marketed at an exhorbitant price, although I didn't bother checking...
> BTW, my doctor says he's had some interesting results with molindone (Moban), a
> relatively nonsedating antipsychotic with the notable distinction of apparently
> not causing weight gain. If it's available there it might be worth checking
> out. (My own experience with it was just *weird*.)
Hmm, it's not in BNF 37, although it may have appeared since; I don't
really need an AP, just something to look after the anxiety and agitation;
fortunately, in spite of all reports, I found that when moclobemide was
working it took care of those, so hopefully it'll work again this time
around.
> The long half-life is a 2-edged sword. IME, antidepressants don't really cause
> withdrawal symptoms so much if you've only been taking them for a few weeks.
I'd been on paroxetine 50mg for around 6 months before I decided to stop,
but I still didn't get bitten by any withdrawal effects. I suppose my
weird metabolism at least has some advantages.
> Perhaps it would be worthwhile to give one of those another try (this time
> exercising patience <g>).
I did wonder, although I've decided to try the MAOI approach again as that
had the most marked positive effects, however short-lived they were last
time around. I wonder if something like paroxetine and amitriptyline might
be effective, though.
Chris.
Whitleydlm
<<<<<<A "true trial" of stimulants isn't necessarily as long as for
antidepressants.
One reason they are often prescribed for medically ill depressed patients is
because they work fast. Don't push *too* hard or your doctor may accuse you of
"drug seeking behavior"
(LOL). (I don't know how good a relationship you have with your doc.) >>>>>>
LOL with you. She's pretty humorless — but I think she trusts my motivations.
I think she's pretty good at what she does, actually. I'd just like to "help
her" (ha, ha) find the right answer soon (like yesterday!)
>>>>Cholinesterases are a family of enzymes. The relevant one is
acetylcholinesterase (AChE), which catalyzes the metabolism of acetylcholine.
Basically, as far as I can tell, Aricept does to acetylcholine what moclobemide
does to serotonin and norepinephrine. (There are also irreversible AChE
inhibitors; these are sometimes used as pesticides and chemical weapons.)
>>>>>>>
Why don't we hear more (or anything) about
acetylcholine's role in depression?
laurie.
Elizabeth Shapere
Coincidence? Poop-out happens; there are numerous well-documented cases of it
(in addition to the random stories one hears on usenet).
How long had you been taking the meds when the hemorrhage occurred, BTW?
>The meds are very
>dependent on the type of weather. I do get a partial response from the
>meds but whenever there is wet weather, especially wet, cold weather
>the meds totally shut down.
That's interesting. Have you ever charted the course of your depression in
relation to weather and season? I wonder if it's not so much a question of
wetness or cold as of darkness.
Ever consider phototherapy?
>Yeah, I do have some hope left but it is fading everyday. If one of
>these drugs would pull me out of it I would love it. I would more than
>anything love to have my old life back.
Me too, dude.
-elizabeth
Elizabeth Shapere
>acetylcholine's role in depression?
Actually, one side effect of cholinergic drugs (both the cholinesterase
inhibitors like Aricept and Cognex, and the direct agonists like bethanechol
and pilocarpine) is depression. Acetylcholine transmission is increased during
sleep, especially REM sleep, and I'm sure you're aware of the changes in sleep
EEGs of people with classic depression (a professor of mine actually suggested
a possible analogy between depression and narcolepsy).
-elizabeth
Amos S
>
> >... of course that rarely happens because the amount of extra labour
> >required to do blood tests & stuff for everyone would be too expensive
> >both in terms of time and money. Sad, but that's the way it is.
>
> You guys have that problem too, then? That bites. Exactly how does the NHS
> function? (I'm sure you've heard all the standard rants about managed care, the
> current big thing in this country.)
ANS: Not as well as it used to. Unfortunately vast amounts of internal
accounting means that backroom rationing is going on.
I firmly believe that if rationing IS going on, then it should be open
and public (and given current tax levels there is no way out of
rationing)...
I recall a time in a London psychiatric hospital (I was there on behalf
of another), where a discussion I had with the doctor there lasted 45
minutes. Of that, 10 mins was spent on the issue of patient care, and
the remainder was talking about NHS finance, and how that would dominate
what decisions would be made (regarding what hospital the patient would
end up in.)
Even given that, I wouldn't swap it for what you have over the pond in a
million years!!
Amos
LostboyinNC
sha...@aol.comicrelief (Elizabeth Shapere) wrote:
> >But why did the meds quit working immediately after this?
>
> Coincidence? Poop-out happens; there are numerous well-documented
cases of it
> (in addition to the random stories one hears on usenet).
>
> How long had you been taking the meds when the hemorrhage occurred,
BTW?
>
poop out. This antidepressant poop out was not the regular kind of poop
out. More of an abrupt poop out that happened all in one day. Like the
hemorrhage happened and things instantly went backwards. Pretty
straightforward.
> That's interesting. Have you ever charted the course of your
depression in
> relation to weather and season? I wonder if it's not so much a
question of
> wetness or cold as of darkness.
No its the wetness and temperature, not darkness. And it has only been
like that since the hemorrhage. Before the hemorrhage I never noticed
any kinds of correlation to the weather. Cold, wet weather is the worst.
>
-- Eric
Elizabeth Shapere
>poop out. This antidepressant poop out was not the regular kind of poop
>out. More of an abrupt poop out that happened all in one day. Like the
>hemorrhage happened and things instantly went backwards. Pretty
>straightforward.
Okay, I'm not clear on this, but my understanding is that you started Remeron
and Risperdal simultaneously, and then a month later you had this hemorrhage
thing?
>No its the wetness and temperature, not darkness. And it has only been
>like that since the hemorrhage. Before the hemorrhage I never noticed
>any kinds of correlation to the weather. Cold, wet weather is the worst.
I'd still try keeping a mood diary (make a list of your symptoms, and at the
end of each day rate each one on a scale of 0 to 5, 0 being "asymptomatic" and
5 being the worst it's ever been) and seeing if you can find any patterns --
seasonal, or whatever. (One of the few useful things I got out of CBT was mood
charting.)
-elizabeth
Elizabeth Shapere
>> function? (I'm sure you've heard all the standard rants about managed care,
>the
>> current big thing in this country.)
>
>ANS: Not as well as it used to.
<g> Miscommunication: I meant exactly what system is in place, not "does it
work well at all?" (As far as I can tell there is no country that is not
experiencing a health care crisis of some sort.)
But it sounds like you have to deal with a lot of the same red tape issues as
we do over here. :-(
-elizabeth
LostboyinNC
sha...@aol.comicrelief (Elizabeth Shapere) wrote:
> >I had been on meds only a month Elizabeth. Not long to get
conventional
> >poop out. This antidepressant poop out was not the regular kind of
poop
> >out. More of an abrupt poop out that happened all in one day. Like
the
> >hemorrhage happened and things instantly went backwards. Pretty
> >straightforward.
>
> Okay, I'm not clear on this, but my understanding is that you started
Remeron
> and Risperdal simultaneously, and then a month later you had this
hemorrhage
> thing?
I was diagnosed with clinical depression in early December 97. I was
allowed to try Zoloft which I didnt stick with. Then later in January
98 I tried Paxil which I didnt stick with, but it was helping me. My
shrink was fed up with me not staying on meds and I believe had
basically written me off because of. I was put on the Risperdal first
for two main reasons. I had not stuck to my antidepressants and my
shrink was fed up with me. And I made statements about homicidal
thoughts in my most severe stage of depression, to a female social
worker.
I was put on Remeron about exactly one week after beginning Risperdal
to answer your question exactly. I started the Risperdal, a week later
started 15 mg Remeron. I was on this combo for about a month
afterwards. Then increased the Remeron from 15 mg to 30 mg. This first
day of increasing the meds the hemorrhage thing occured. The meds quit
working after this increase of Remeron and the resulting hemorrhage. I
mean, I woke up that first morning after the increase feeling better.
That late afternoon the hemorrhage occured and I felt MUCH worse. That
night I noticed the Remeron didnt seem to work as good for the
insomnia. The following day I noticed I was feeling shitty again. And
it just went downhill after that, resistance to meds.
It is very, very doubtful I would have ever been put on Risperdal had I
been smarter and not told that female social worker I had homicidal
thoughts. I was stupid and did not tell her these were just "thoughts"
and I would never actively carry them out or anything. I had no plans
or anything to kill anybody. I was not actively suicidal either. There
is a difference between having "thoughts" and having thoughts and not
recognizing right from wrong, etc. I could easily tell right from wrong
at that time but you know, they never even bothered to inquire about
that sort of thing. It was just I made the statements and from then on
I was basically "written off" by my psychiatrist and his social worker.
They thought I was a walking, talking, potential psycho murderer.
Later on, right after all this I went to Duke for second opinion and
they didnt think I needed to be on Risperdal at all and needed
antidepressants instead. They also said I was not potentially violent
or anything and called my shrink and told him so. They called me back
and told me my shrink did not have much faith in me as far as being
able to stick with my antidepressants and they told me they didnt know
what quality of care I would get from him if I kept going back to him.
I later asked that psychiatrist why he put me on low dose Risperdal and
he told me the homicidal statements was the main reason. I then told
him sometimes homicidal thoughts can be a component of severe
depression, especially in men, and he got mad and told me no way. He
told me thinking about murder was not part of depression. I was shocked
at the things he thought about me and realized what kind of a person I
had been dealing with for several months, what he really thought about
me and I didnt even realize or know it until the very end. He basically
thought that since I had "thoughts" that I probably ought to be in
prison or something. He thought just having these thoughts was totally
inexcusable. Like he was God or something. Motherfucker, I cant stand
him. He is soooooooo lucky the malpractice laws in NC are on his side.
I get so mad thinking about it, I was treated like a little kid by him.
Dont ever tell a mental health worker you have ever had thoughts of
violence. Even if they were just stupid thoughts and you would never
carry them out like mine were.
Eric
>
--
Sean Cavanaugh
common among depressed men. Your doctor may very well be a mothefucker for
a number of reasons, but he was right to react the way he did to your
thoughts of violence.
You sound like a time-bomb, Eric.
- Sean
LostboyinNC
-- Im not a time bomb Sean. Im as calm and peaceful offline as a dove.
I have never had problems with the law or anything either. Who are YOU?
Are you a psychiatrist? Having homicidal thoughts can occur with severe
depression in men...I have always heard that even before I was struck
down with depression. My psychiatrist did not like me for a variety of
reasons which I am not going to go into on here. Your very reaction to
my posts are exactly like my psychiatrist and his social worker were.
In fact, people who know me think I am actually MORE moral than the
vast majority in this country, which I will agree to. I have more
character than most do, more backbone too. I had those thoughts and not
one time did I ever think of acting on them...NEVER! A person can have
thoughts like that, plenty of men have thoughts like that. But they are
smart enough to not tell people about them. I wasnt.
You sound just like my first shrink...a judgemental asshole who thought
he knew right from wrong better than I did. Further than that, my
psychiatrist nearly quit trying to attack my depression, which just got
worse. I thought more about suicide after being put on Risperdal than
before Risperdal. You dont even know my whole story.
Eric
Chris Hedley
sha...@aol.comicrelief (Elizabeth Shapere) writes:
> You guys have that problem too, then? That bites. Exactly how does the NHS
> function? (I'm sure you've heard all the standard rants about managed care, the
> current big thing in this country.)
On a tight budget! Apart from that, I'm not sure if even the NHS knows
how it functions. Sorry for being so flippant, but I really don't know.
> Well, it will be interesting to hear what comes out of the treatment review.
Phenelzine came out of it. I thought he was going to use tranylcypromine
at first, but there's apparently a warning that the manufacturer may cease
production before long.
> What body part? I had chronic back pain for about 4 years (10/95-9/99);
> currently it seems to have disappeared for the most part, but it's done this
> before and come back later so I'm not counting on anything.
Chest, back and sides. Sometimes it's quite nasty, other times it's not,
but it's always there. Benzos sometimes help reduce it, so I guess it's
a muscular thing.
> Haven't picked up the bethanechol from the pharmacy yet (waiting for the
> Marplan to come in so I don't have to make 2 trips - the only pharmacy in the
> Boston area that takes my insurance is a pain to get to from here), but it
> seems like it won't be much use since it only lasts an hour. And if I can
> barely tolerate nortriptyline at 50mg (which probably isn't enough to work), it
> doesn't seem worthwhile to continue. I might try desipramine or amoxapine, but
> I'm having a hard time remembering what made me think that adding a tricyclic
> would be useful. (Maybe the memory loss is just due to the anticholinergic
> effects of the nortriptyline, though, and I'll remember again after I stop the
> TCA. <g>)
That sounds like about the shortest half-life I've heard of yet! It's a
shame that you can't really tolerate TCAs as a lot of them are pretty good
by all reports (although you already know that!) From what I heard, adding
a TCA just potentiates the effects of the MAOI a bit (I guess stopping both
deanimation and reuptake of MAs is quite a potent mixture)
So, any gotchas I should look out for with phenelzine, then? I know about
the one where it spontaneously stops working for no apparent reason. What's
the deal with pizzas? And alcohol - I don't drink much these days, but I
do still like the odd tipple.
Oh, and is it *really* made of fennel? :)
Chris.
Sean C
> -- Im not a time bomb Sean. Im as calm and peaceful offline as a dove.
I hope you are. I really do. But based on your totally inappropriate
reactions to just about everyone here you come into contact with, I'm glad
there's a continent between us. You're a frightening person, and I hope you
correct that someday.
> I have never had problems with the law or anything either. Who are YOU?
> Are you a psychiatrist? Having homicidal thoughts can occur with severe
> depression in men...
It is NOT common to depression, Eric. Repeat: homicidal thoughts are
abnormal, and your doctor had no choice but to take some action. I suppose
it's one thing if your thoughts of violence do not involve actual living
people, i.e., purely fictitious or fantastical in nature, but if you're even
slightly thinking about harming a living person, well, that's fucked up and
you need to get serious help.
> In fact, people who know me think I am actually MORE moral than the
> vast majority in this country, which I will agree to. I have more
> character than most do, more backbone too.
I'm not questioning your character, Eric -- just your illness.
> I had those thoughts and not
> one time did I ever think of acting on them...NEVER!
Perhaps not, but I imagine you probably exhibit a lot of rage and temper
control problems in the doctor's office as well as on this NG, and that
combined with depression and homicidal thoughts is going to raise a BIG RED
FLAG.
> A person can have
> thoughts like that, plenty of men have thoughts like that.
In prison, maybe. The very fact that you're attempting to convince
yourself that such thoughts are okay, and that the only real problem is
expressing them, really worries me. They're not normal, Eric. They're not
common, not even among depressed men. Such thinking is psychotic and perhaps
pathological.
> You sound just like my first shrink...a judgemental asshole who thought
> he knew right from wrong better than I did.
I may very well be an asshole, but it doesn't require a lot of judgment to
realize that having homicidal thoughts means something is very, very wrong.
I think one reason depression and other mental illnesses are so insidious is
because they take over the part of the brain that lets us know when
something's wrong.
> Further than that, my
> psychiatrist nearly quit trying to attack my depression, which just got
> worse. I thought more about suicide after being put on Risperdal than
> before Risperdal. You dont even know my whole story.
No I don't, and I'm not even pretending to. All I know is that you
routinely exhibit inappropriate rage, and that, combined with other stuff
you've said about your illness, raises a red flag. I really hope you get
better.
- Sean
Judi Martin
trust. I had some entry-level-social-worker types first brush me off, then
threaten to have me committed, in a similar scenario.
I agree, thoughts and acts are entirely different!
LostboyinNC wrote in message
>Dont ever tell a mental health worker you have ever had thoughts of
>violence. Even if they were just stupid thoughts and you would never
>carry them out like mine were.
>
>Eric
>>
>
>--
judy judy
with doubts about yourselve and who you
are..i am a christian man and i always have
touble with my thought life. i say one thing
and my mind says something else. who do
i believe my mind or what i say..itvery confusing
i don't want to doubt any more..
George
LostboyinNC
"Judi Martin" <bri...@juno.com> wrote:
> I would not even admit to suicidal thoughts to anyone I didn't know
and
> trust. I had some entry-level-social-worker types first brush me
off, then
> threaten to have me committed, in a similar scenario.
>
> I agree, thoughts and acts are entirely different!
>
yeah, thoughts and acts are totally different. Did you know that
thoughts of violence are quite common in OCD? All the social workers
are concerned with is looking out for number one...themselves.
LostboyinNC
-- Look Sean, your full of shit. Your post REALLY pissed me off.
Basically you are calling me a potential murderer, which is BULLSHIT.
You sound exactly like my first shrink and his prissy social worker
sounded. If I was still under their care Sean, I would have been dead
from suicide by summer 98, cause they totally neglected my depression
after I made those statements. They were more concerned with other
stuff Sean. My underlying illness was largely ignored by them Sean and
it was judgement day for me and I hadnt even done anything.
Sean, in the USA you dont get judged until after youve been proven you
committed a crime. We dont just treat people like criminals in this
country for no reason Sean. At least thats how it is supposed to be
here on paper. I found otherwise. I did absolutely nothing wrong, yet I
was basically treated as almost a type of criminal by my first
psychiatrist. This made me very, very angry.
I never was going to do anything and never am going to do anything.
Sean, I have seen so many shrinks in the past two years and none of
them since that first one has thought I was antisocial or psychotic or
pathological. I dont think it is normal or good to have homicidal
thoughts. But I do think it is entirely possible to have them the way I
had them and never carry them out...is that OK with you? Thoughts and
actually carrying them out are two totally different things. You very,
very much sound like a PUSSY. I exhibit a lot of rage on here sometimes
and I should to be honest. There are a lot of dumb, stupid ass people
on this NG and there are a lot of dumb, stupid ass misconceptions when
it comes to mental illness and major depression. I try to straighten
people out on here a lot and sometimes they dont like it. Im not going
to apologize for it.
If I really were a timebomb, I can assure you I would have been
committed involuntarily a long time ago. Again, I have been in contact
with so many mental health people in the past two years and I have all
told them this same story. You are very much wrong that homicidal
thoughts cannot be a component of severe clinical depression in men
Sean...you are dead wrong. Who told you it was not possible Sean?
Please tell us why you think this? Are you a psychiatrist? Who exactly
are you Sean? I dont like people coming on here and telling me I am a
potential murderer when I KNOW I am not! It insults my integrity and my
honor, something I probably have a lot more of than you do. I dont
think its good I have had these thoughts in the past, but at least I
have the guts to admit all of my inner psyche to my doctors which many
dont have the guts to admit. Sean, your just a wussy I can tell.
Furthermore, I dont act like this offline Sean. If I did I would be in
the funny farm a long time ago. I am actually quite calm, cool and
collected and very, very peaceful offline. I am far from perfect.
Like I said before. I am not trying to rationalize that having these
thoughts is OK or normal or good. I am saying that I can completely
tell right from wrong, always have and always will. I do have a big,
big chunk of my brain that says "murder and antisocial activity is
WRONG!!!" Im not going to apologize to you Sean, nor to anyone else.
Sean, a lot of my anger comes from the fact I am treatment resistant
and am still quite depressed and irritable. I am also angry at the
initial treatment I received from my first psychiatrist. Which
unfortunately I will admit is largely my fault. I mean, what do you
expect when you go tell a female social worker youve never met before
and knows nothing about you that you think about BOTH suicide and
killing people? I got what I deserved I guess, I was stupid as hell for
even telling that stuff. I didnt know, I thought I could tell that
stuff and it would be taken in the proper context of how I meant it.
The most severe homicidal thoughts I had were when I was hyped up on
steroids. In a steroid rage.
I would also like to know exactly who you are Sean. Are you by any
chance associated with Scientology or are you a mental health worker of
some sort?
You sound like you want to be my judge, jury and hangman there Sean.
Eric
LostboyinNC
Like do you have terrible thoughts you are ashamed of and know are
terrible or wrong? Thoughts about violence, disease, improper sexual
habits or practices, dirty things, etc? Do you have these thoughts a
lot and you cant get them out of your mind? Keep coming back over and
over again? But you recognize these thoughts are improper and wrong?
Then you feel like you are either going crazy or you feel guilty about
it?
Eric
--
Elizabeth Shapere
>common among depressed men.
Not common, but possible. I think that for some people intense anger can be a
part of depression. Perhaps this is a particular subtype that ought to be
studied more. I know that some guys at MGH have been studying the phenomenon of
"anger attacks" (like panic attacks, only...well, you can guess) in depression
and panic disorder, but I don't know of any particular research on anger in
general.
-elizabeth
Elizabeth Shapere
>vast majority in this country, which I will agree to.
That wouldn't take much, though, would it? <g> Seriously, I don't think that
being moral or not being moral has to do with how you feel, but how you act.
(Of course, then there's the issue of impulse control - this is why I don't
think free will is ever absolute.)
I think that a clinician ought to be concerned about homicidal ideation just as
he or she should be concerned about suicidal ideation. *Exactly* what happened
when you told various treaters about your homicidal thoughts? What did they say
to you, and did they do anything unusual?
As for Risperdal, I think it was a good idea that just happened not to work
out. Hindsight is 20-20, you know.
-elizabeth
Elizabeth Shapere
>abnormal, and your doctor had no choice but to take some action. I suppose
>it's one thing if your thoughts of violence do not involve actual living
>people, i.e., purely fictitious or fantastical in nature, but if you're even
>slightly thinking about harming a living person, well, that's fucked up and
>you need to get serious help.
Sean...haven't you ever been mad at someone and had fantasies of hurting them?
But you didn't act on these fantasies, right? (I think this argument has been
used succcessfully in more than one episode of _The Practice_ <g>.)
>Such thinking is psychotic and perhaps
pathological.
In what sense is it psychotic?
-elizabeth
LostboyinNC
-- well THANK YOU Elizabeth. Violent thoughts are also very common in
OCD. Fear of hurting people and such. I feel uncomfortable talking
about this in ways cause I feel like I am being judged and I have never
even done anything to begin with. Just go ahead and crucify me and Im
innocent right Sean?
Eric
LostboyinNC
sha...@aol.comicrelief (Elizabeth Shapere) wrote:
> >In fact, people who know me think I am actually MORE moral than the
> >vast majority in this country, which I will agree to.
>
> That wouldn't take much, though, would it? <g> Seriously, I don't
think that
> being moral or not being moral has to do with how you feel, but how
you act.
> (Of course, then there's the issue of impulse control - this is why I
don't
> think free will is ever absolute.)
well online on this NG I am an asshole I admit but offline I am a
totally different person. I have said over and over again I dont act
like this offline if I did I would be in jail. I just read so much
stuff on here from Scientologists, antidrug people, people who have the
wrong ideas about depression, the health insurance people and bad
doctors that I am obsessed with laying it on the line with them and I
become aggressive. I am very opinionated and strongminded and want to
set things straight, I wont tolerate anything else if I can help it.
>
> I think that a clinician ought to be concerned about homicidal
ideation just as
> he or she should be concerned about suicidal ideation. *Exactly* what
happened
> when you told various treaters about your homicidal thoughts? What
did they say
> to you, and did they do anything unusual?
Well I told you what happened to the first group of people who treated
me. They freaked and basically judged me. I swear I believe I could
have told my psychiatrist that stuff and he would not have gotten out
of shape. It was the fact I told it to his female social worker, she
went apeshit and went off and told him about it. I think coming from
her he got the wrong ideas.
After I left them I told this story to all of my doctors after and none
of them gave a damn about it. I had one at Duke who called my first
shrink and told him they did not think I was violent or antisocial.
They diagnosed me with OCD. Later on I went to another shrink and he
said my problem was just a gruff personality and an athletic, heavily
physical appearance. He said he could see how some females could get
the wrong idea about me. I had to go to Duke that one time early on to
get my first psychiatrist off my back when I went off Risperdal against
his orders. I was not bad enough to involuntarily commit or anything
but I had it in the back of my mind he might try to do that. So I went
to Duke and saw some bigshot guy there and overnight they decided I was
safe. Called that shrink here in GSO and called me back and told me
they didnt think he was a good doctor.
Several other shrinks have seen me too since then. I have seen maybe 8
psychiatrists in two years. Two at Duke, a couple at MUSC. A couple in
my home town. One in Charlotte too. The only ones who think I am
potentially violent or whatever is that first one.
>
> As for Risperdal, I think it was a good idea that just happened not
to work
> out. Hindsight is 20-20, you know.
I dont think it was a good idea cause all it did was block my
antidepressant at the time, Remeron. But I know what you are saying,
cant change the past and all.
Sometimes I wonder if all that stuff made me develop PTSD. I mean, when
that first doctor told me I was borderline psychotic with depressed
mood and he wanted me to go on .5 mg of Risperdal, I about had a heart
attack in his office. I mean it was traumatic for me to hear that. I
left his office and was like "this is the worst day of my whole life."
Had to go home and pop Xanax to calm down. I mean I was already so
depressed it was pathetic. I had no critical decision making skills
left then, no real cognitive abilities then either. Just scared
shitless with nobody to trust or talk to about my problem. Told my
sister about it and she told me to get a second opinion on the
psychosis part. The stuff he told me left me pretty much shellshocked
nerve wise. I dont think he realized or cared what he did to me.
Then again, guess thats what I get for telling a female social worker I
thought about killing people. You reap what you sow I guess. Stupid me.
Eric
--
Elizabeth Shapere
>committed a crime.
Did Sean -- or your first psychiatrist -- try to have you involuntarily
committed or jailed (or otherwise penalized)? That would be the consequence if
you had committed a crime. Sean did not accuse you of a crime, though, because
in the USA we don't have "thought crimes" (at least, in theory <g>).
>I have seen so many shrinks in the past two years and none of
>them since that first one has thought I was antisocial or psychotic or
>pathological.
Of course they thought you were pathological. You have a diagnosis of major
depressive disorder, right? How is that not pathological?
I don't think Sean called you antisocial, and I'm not sure he's correct in
labelling your thoughts psychotic.
>I exhibit a lot of rage on here sometimes
>and I should to be honest.
I think there's a difference between being honest and being indiscriminate
about what you say. ;-)
>I try to straighten
>people out on here a lot and sometimes they dont like it.
"Ridding the world of malice and error" was my GR prof's expression for this
<g>. (And my dad does it professionally.)
>Furthermore, I dont act like this offline Sean.
Here's a question, then: why do you do it online and not offline?
BTW Eric, I know your irritability is troubling to you...that's called insight:
you realize when something is wrong.
>I mean, what do you
>expect when you go tell a female social worker youve never met before
>and knows nothing about you that you think about BOTH suicide and
>killing people?
I don't know exactly what social workers are and aren't trained to do, but I
would expect that she pay attention to your overall mental status, not just
that one aspect. Homicidal and suicidal ideation are red flags, and she ought
to question you further as to whether you had specific plans and whether you
felt like you could refrain from acting on your thoughts (or if you started
feeling out of control, if you could let her know or otherwise get help
promptly).
-elizabeth
Elizabeth Shapere
>with doubts about yourselve and who you
>are..i am a christian man and i always have
>touble with my thought life. i say one thing
>and my mind says something else. who do
>i believe my mind or what i say..itvery confusing
>i don't want to doubt any more..
I think depression creates a lot of doubts. For me this manifests as
indecisiveness and a lack of confidence.
-elizabeth
Elizabeth Shapere
>at first, but there's apparently a warning that the manufacturer may cease
>production before long.
That could screw over a whole lot of people. Why not isocarboxazid?
>Chest, back and sides. Sometimes it's quite nasty, other times it's not,
>but it's always there. Benzos sometimes help reduce it, so I guess it's
>a muscular thing.
Yeah, that would seem so. I found benzos (diazepam) to be inconsistently
helpful. Now I use Soma (no, not the stuff from _A Brave New World_ :-).
>That sounds like about the shortest half-life I've heard of yet!
It's not the half-life, it's the duration of action. I don't know if anybody
actually knows its elimination half-life.
>So, any gotchas I should look out for with phenelzine, then? I know about
>the one where it spontaneously stops working for no apparent reason. What's
>the deal with pizzas? And alcohol - I don't drink much these days, but I
>do still like the odd tipple.
Carbohydrate cravings. (!!!!!!!!)
Mozzarella cheese is probably okay in small amounts (like maybe one slice of
pizza). See, e.g.:
Shulman KI, et al. Refining the MAOI diet: tyramine content of pizzas and soy
products. J Clin Psychiatry 1999 Mar;60(3):191-3.
I think I've posted about the diet many times so I won't repeat myself here.
You know the spiel by now. <g>
>Oh, and is it *really* made of fennel? :)
No, but it has a *phenyl* group.
-elizabeth
LostboyinNC
sha...@aol.comicrelief (Elizabeth Shapere) wrote:
> >Sean, in the USA you dont get judged until after youve been proven
you
> >committed a crime.
>
involuntarily
> committed or jailed (or otherwise penalized)?
nah nobody has ever come close to having me involuntarily committed and
I have never been in jail or even been arrested before.
That would be the consequence if
> you had committed a crime. Sean did not accuse you of a crime,
though, because
> in the USA we don't have "thought crimes" (at least, in theory <g>).
well, according to my first shrink and his female social worker
associate, I was having thought crimes. Yeah, that is exactly what is
was. I could not have thoughts like that...ever. If I did I needed to
be locked up, put on Risperdal permanently or something. So far as they
were concerned, having these "thought crimes" and I from then on ceased
to have any real rights or anything anymore and was no longer treated
like an adult but treated like a little kid or something who could not
tell right from wrong. Ooooooooooooh man that made me angry after what
I found out what was going on. They were the "thought police." Fuck
them.
Where did they think they were living at? Nazi Germany or something?
In fact, after it was all over, that is what I thought about. I felt
like I had been treated in the same way the old Soviet NKVD used to use
psychiatry to get rid of anybody they perceived to be a threat to
themselves or whatever. Like that Beria guy from the Soviet NKVD or the
German SS secret police or something, my psychiatrist really fucked
with my mind. I doubt many of the posters on here will even know what
the old Soviet NKVD was, I am more well read than most. But after my
experiences with my first doc I can see how tactics like that used by
the old NKVD and SS could really fuck people up. My psychiatrist did
not like me personally either, I think that is one of the reasons I got
such a bad rap from him. See, when I first saw him, I was in the middle
of that steroid induced rage and I went into his office and just
verbally tore into him. I was really mean to him verbally, really
dented his big doctor ego. Later, after I came off the steroids, I
formally apologized to him. I told him I was sorry for it and meant it.
Told him I was sorry several times actually and told him that was not
the real me. He never really got over it though and took it personally.
He didnt like me at all. He thought I was a jerk.
>
> >I have seen so many shrinks in the past two years and none of
> >them since that first one has thought I was antisocial or psychotic
or
> >pathological.
>
> Of course they thought you were pathological. You have a diagnosis of
major
> depressive disorder, right? How is that not pathological?
>
> I don't think Sean called you antisocial, and I'm not sure he's
correct in
> labelling your thoughts psychotic.
>
> >I exhibit a lot of rage on here sometimes
> >and I should to be honest.
>
> I think there's a difference between being honest and being
indiscriminate
> about what you say. ;-)
>
> >I try to straighten
> >people out on here a lot and sometimes they dont like it.
>
> "Ridding the world of malice and error" was my GR prof's expression
for this
> <g>. (And my dad does it professionally.)
there are a lot of people with the wrong ideas about mental illness,
more so than perhaps any other medical problem. You gotta admit that.
It just irks me to read some of the stuff people post.
>
> >Furthermore, I dont act like this offline Sean.
>
> Here's a question, then: why do you do it online and not offline?
well, I dont talk to that many people offline anymore. I am out in
fluctuation a lot, go out to eat a lot, go places but I am a loner now
kind of except for my girlfriend and my family who I am very close to.
I really have no desire to act like this offline believe it or not.
Sometimes I do get pissed off when I go to see the doctors and get a
little agitated feeling then. But overall I just dont have a desire to
act like this offline. I just dont talk about my depression to people
offline like I do on this NG.
>
> BTW Eric, I know your irritability is troubling to you...that's
called insight:
> you realize when something is wrong.
>
> >I mean, what do you
> >expect when you go tell a female social worker youve never met before
> >and knows nothing about you that you think about BOTH suicide and
> >killing people?
>
> I don't know exactly what social workers are and aren't trained to
do, but I
> would expect that she pay attention to your overall mental status,
not just
> that one aspect. Homicidal and suicidal ideation are red flags, and
she ought
> to question you further as to whether you had specific plans and
whether you
> felt like you could refrain from acting on your thoughts (or if you
started
> feeling out of control, if you could let her know or otherwise get
help
> promptly).
they never further questioned me about specific plans or anything.
Never asked anything more about it. It was just I said those things,
then it was like a terrible thing, then it was like kept hush hush and
just put me on Risperdal and treat me like a little kid forever. My
depression probs which were very, very severe were also trivialized
after that, depression "was the least of my problems" so to speak. Yeah
right, all that time I was seriously considering blowing out my brains
and they didnt even know. Just cared about my homicidal statements is
all. I had no rights to even be alive or have a life anymore I think
they thought.
Eric
>
--
DCDJC
>in the USA we don't have "thought crimes"
Who says? Try asserting a racist or homophobic thought in a university
setting: you will be run out of town of a rail (that's the least serious
outcome) for holding a belief and stating it. The entire notion of laws and
special sentences for "hate crimes" is directed towards thought, not action. It
used to be you got punished for hurting someone, whatever your motive. Now it
is worse to hurt them for some reasons that for other reasons. Go figure.
dcdjc
DCDJC
>From: jud...@webtv.net (judy judy)
George, what you describe is the essence of depression. It involves a sense of
lack of worth as a person even tho the facts say otherwise. Don't believe the
doubts. See a doctor and try to deal with it.
LostboyinNC
-- yeah you are right Doug, I thought back to my days at UNCG...how
miserable. Always having to watch what I said, keeping my personal
viewpoints to myself. Had I talked there like I talk on this NG I would
have been kicked off campus for sure. But at least they couldnt have
put me on drugs for policing my thoughts.
Eric
LostboyinNC
of my psychiatrists.
1) Severe treatment resistant depression, another doc called it a form
of atypical depression.
2) An atypical form of OCD, with a "psychotic flare to it."
3) Anxiety
4) A paranoid personality type. Paranoid not in the sense I feel
actually paranoid but in the sense I dont trust people. Suspicious, not
trusting of others, always wanting to know why things are the way they
are, etc. Skeptical, cynical, etc.
5) Possible Tourette's syndrome, which I dont agree with this diagnosis
though.
Im pretty screwed up huh Sean?
Sean C
> -- Look Sean, your full of shit. Your post REALLY pissed me off.
> Basically you are calling me a potential murderer, which is BULLSHIT.
Look Eric, I've called you no such thing, nor am I accusing you of
anything. ALL I SAID was that I understand why your psychiatrist did what he
did. When you tell a shrink you're having recurring thoughts of killing
someone, do you really think he's going to say, "Oh, that's common to
depression, don't worry about it"?
C'mawn. Use yer noodle! What if you had acted on those thoughts? Your
psych would have had quite a problem on his hands.
You keep talking about how it's all just talk, how you only express rage
online and not offline. Well, that may be true or it may not. I wouldn't
take the chance without knowing a lot more about you. Maybe your psych
didn't know much else about you...
> You sound exactly like my first shrink and his prissy social worker
> sounded. If I was still under their care Sean, I would have been dead
> from suicide by summer 98, cause they totally neglected my depression
> after I made those statements. They were more concerned with other
> stuff Sean. My underlying illness was largely ignored by them Sean and
> it was judgement day for me and I hadnt even done anything.
From the psych's point of view, it would be preferable for you to kill
yourself than to kill someone else. From society's point of view, it would
be preferable for you to kill yourself than someone else. YOU and only you
put your psych in a position where he had to treat that FIRST, okay?
> Sean, in the USA you dont get judged until after youve been proven you
> committed a crime.
Consider: If you told me you were thinking about killing someone I know,
*I* would judge you. I'd also tell the person, who'd probably call the cops
and get a restraining order. Sure, you wouldn't go to jail unless you'd
acted on it, been tried and convicted of it, but society doesn't have to sit
around and wait for you to do it. If there's a likelihood that you may be a
danger to yourself or others, certain people, especially doctors, have a
legal and ethical obligation to intervene. Yet you keep blaming them! I
would have done the same thing.
> We dont just treat people like criminals in this
> country for no reason Sean.
No one treated you like a criminal -- but rather a *potential* threat to
others.
> I did absolutely nothing wrong, yet I
> was basically treated as almost a type of criminal by my first
> psychiatrist. This made me very, very angry.
It looks like a great many things make you very, very angry.
> Thoughts and actually carrying them out are two totally different things.
But people who carry them out have thoughts FIRST, okay? Just because you
say you wouldn't carry them out doesn't mean anyone has to trust you,
especially if that's one of the first things they know about you. You keep
saying that this was your FIRST psych. Well do the math Eric! The second one
probably consulted with the first one who told him that you probably weren't
a threat after all. I bet that had you established a relationship with the
first psych before telling him right off the bat you had homicidal thoughts
(this after being treated for steroidal rage -- geez, fucking think about it
dude!), he probably would have responded differently.
> You very,
> very much sound like a PUSSY. I exhibit a lot of rage on here sometimes
> and I should to be honest.
Expressing rage isn't "honesty," Eric. You express rage because you're
immature and don't know how to control yourself. At the risk of sounding
preachy, my advice to you is quit being a "lost boy," a wounded little
puppy. Be a man and learn to control yourself.
> You are very much wrong that homicidal
> thoughts cannot be a component of severe clinical depression in men
> Sean...you are dead wrong.
Homicidal thoughts are NOT a component of major depression. They are,
however, associated with other mental illnesses that may very well exist
alongside your depression.
> Furthermore, I dont act like this offline Sean. If I did I would be in
> the funny farm a long time ago. I am actually quite calm, cool and
> collected and very, very peaceful offline.
I think you are a frightening individual -- a time bomb waiting to go off.
I sincerely hope I'm wrong about you.
> Like I said before. I am not trying to rationalize that having these
> thoughts is OK or normal or good. I am saying that I can completely
> tell right from wrong, always have and always will. I do have a big,
> big chunk of my brain that says "murder and antisocial activity is
> WRONG!!!" Im not going to apologize to you Sean, nor to anyone else.
Why do you think I'm asking for an apology? Sheesh, do you think you're
the first person with temper control problems I've seen online?
> Sean, a lot of my anger comes from the fact I am treatment resistant
> and am still quite depressed and irritable. I am also angry at the
> initial treatment I received from my first psychiatrist. Which
> unfortunately I will admit is largely my fault. I mean, what do you
> expect when you go tell a female social worker youve never met before
> and knows nothing about you that you think about BOTH suicide and
> killing people?
What does "being female" have to do with it? You've mentioned this a
couple of times, as if the simple fact that it was a woman had something to
do with it. I would have responded the same way if that was one of the first
things I knew about you. HELL, I *am* responding that way, and it *is* one
of the first things I know about you! Think about that for a sec ...
> I got what I deserved I guess, I was stupid as hell for
> even telling that stuff. I didnt know, I thought I could tell that
> stuff and it would be taken in the proper context of how I meant it.
>
> The most severe homicidal thoughts I had were when I was hyped up on
> steroids. In a steroid rage.
Okay, explain this to me: you just said you understood why they acted that
way because you mistakenly assumed they would understand the proper context
of how you meant it. So why are you still so full of rage about it? You
can't go through life expecting people to read your mind, Eric! They didn't
know you very well yet! They can't assume the best possible context in the
absence of other information about who you really are!
> I would also like to know exactly who you are Sean. Are you by any
> chance associated with Scientology or are you a mental health worker of
> some sort?
Scientology? Ha! I'm about as associated with scientology as you are.
Nope, I'm a writer and artist (and software engineer, which actually pays
most of my bills)who fell into a deep depression about a year ago, complete
with lots of suicidal ideation, self-loathing, hopelessness, insomnia, etc.
I'm driving home one day and I hear this ad on the radio about a clinical
trial for depression, and I just knew at that moment that I had to do
something, so I called the number in the ad. I didn't want to see a
psychiatrist or psychologist, so I started going to this research place for
treatment in secret. I was so embarassed, I didn't even want my insurance
company to know I was taking meds or seeing someone for depression. The
drugs in the study were free, and it was all completely confidential -- I
was simply a number in a database. They even continued my care, for free,
when it was apparent the drug, or placebo, I was taking wasn't helping me.
They gave me free Effexor and a consultation with a M.D./Ph.D once a week
for a few months. They also taught me a lot about what depression really is,
and after a while I quit being embarassed by it, told my friends and family,
started leaning on people a little instead of always being the rock. The
study coordinator still calls me about once a month to see how I'm doing.
They were great people.
My score on the DSM test was 29, which is right on the border between
moderate and severe Major Depressive Disorder.
If you want to know anything else about me, go to my web site at
http://www.mvd.com/seanc
Take care,
- Sean
Sean C
> Im pretty screwed up huh Sean?
Sure sounds like it, but guess what? You are not your illness. It may get
so bad sometimes that it's hard to see the *you* behind the illness, but I
don't doubt you're there. The very fact that you can acknowledge it would
lead me to believe you'll find the right treatment and eventually get it
under control.
Take care,
- Sean
Sean C
Depression isn't carte blanche to throw temper tantrums or to act like a
mewling brat. You know what I think would be the best thing for you?
The United States Marine Corps.
You can check out the Corps' website at http://www.usmc.mil or the
recruiting site at http://www.marines.com. There's even a recruit depot in
your area, MCRD Parris Island.
Ooh-rah!
- Sean
LostboyinNC <lostb...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:814p1j$h0o$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Sean, I usually like arguing with people on here. I usually LOVE to
> argue. But your a prick and I cant stand your fucking guts. I have
> never put someone in my trash bin on here before but I am putting you
> in mine. I dont wanna see anymore crap you post.
>
> goodbye,
>
> Eric
Sean C
I say this sincerely: control your temper. Just do it. It's as simple as
that. Carrying that much anger is going to hurt you. I know you're fucked
up, and I know you're suffering, which is why I don't take anything you say
personally, but still, I mean jeez dude! you're so far off base it's sad.
Take care (really)
- Sean
LostboyinNC wrote:
> just shut the fuck up
LostboyinNC
argue. But your a prick and I cant stand your fucking guts. I have
never put someone in my trash bin on here before but I am putting you
in mine. I dont wanna see anymore crap you post.
goodbye,
Eric
LostboyinNC
Phil
wrote:
> When you tell a shrink you're having recurring thoughts of killing
>someone, do you really think he's going to say, "Oh, that's common to
>depression, don't worry about it"?
Not that this is Eric's case, but PTSD, suffered by just about any vet
who has seen real combat, causes this on a regular basis, and is
considered a normal part of the depression (hearsay again, but from a
pretty good source). I'm not told "don't worry about it" but the doc
is pretty non-chalant about it. There are tons of vets running around
with thoughts of killing others, who have killed before, but notice,
you don't see too many of us on Court TV... that's because although
the thoughts are there, we know, on some level, we won't go through
with it.
PHIL
Three bullets, no insides left, chronic pain, depression,
but according to Soc. Security, I'm not disabled.
LKou
disabled. It may be that a local veteran's group can put you in touch with a
lawyer who will represent you for free or a modest amount. It is better to
have a lawyer, but even if you can't find one you still can appeal and just be
sure you have all your medical records documenting your injuries and your
disabilities. Don't give up!!!
LK
DCDJC
>put me on drugs for policing my thoughts.
No, they would just take away your educational rights, brand you as an
unacceptible member of society, make it difficult for you to get a job, and
maybe send you to prison for jaywalking. I exaggerate. I don't like racists or
homophobes, but I also don't like efforts to ban "bad" thoughts. To get back on
topic, imagine what they could do to us depressives -- especially you, in a
bad mood -- if they knew OUR thoughts. Then the meds would come out, more like
thorazine than serzone.
LostboyinNC
-- well, that is EXACTLY what my first shrink did to me when I told his
social worker I had homicidal thoughts as well as suicidal thoughts. My
severe depression was no longer very important to him and out came the
Risperdal. This is a no shit, honest to gosh story by the way. I am
telling the facts. He never even bothered to ask me questions to find
out if these thoughts were active or not or just thoughts. He was
definitely being my "thought police" no ifs or buts about it. After it
was all over, I swear what came to my mind about my experiences with
him were stories I had read and heard about Nazi Germany and the NKVD
Soviet secret police under Stalin. Same kind of stuff. Stuff like that
can just totally break and ruin a person. I felt like I had been
mentally raped by my psychiatrist. I left thinking, well I agree having
those thoughts is not a good thing but on the other hand "fuck me for
even having thoughts." Like Steve Martin used to say "well,
excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuusseeeeeeeee me."
Eric
Steroids caused my depression...prednisone should be illegal.
Whitleydlm
<<Subject: Re: Drugs & A Brave New World
<< If you want to know anything else about me, go to my web site at
http://www.mvd.com/seanc
>>
Very cool. Now it just goes to show you that we can't judge books by their
covers.
I would have figured Sean for a programmer; someone who writes code all day
long.
He's actually an expert on (among other things) the aesthetic properties of
type and typography. I happen to think that is very cool stuff — and alot
sexier than intellectual arguments abou the medicinal qualities of illegal drug
substances.
Who knew?
laurie.
Sean C
a designer, I have a theory about how that relates to my depression. Apparently I
don't have a dominant brain hemisphere -- I was one of those kids who could write
both left and right-handed, for instance. I broke my arm a couple of times when I
was a boy, and I could easily write with the other hand. I have strong logical and
creative impulses, but for the past year, I think they've gotten out of whack. My
creative side has really suffered. Everything I create seems derivative and
hackneyed to me, like I just can't think of anything wild or cool. I think this
unbalance has something to do with my depression -- like maybe my right brain is
going into hibernation, or worse, dieing.
It's just a theory ...
- Sean
Whitleydlm wrote:
> <<Subject: Re: Drugs & A Brave New World
> From: "Sean C" sean...@hotmail.com >>
>
> << If you want to know anything else about me, go to my web site at
> http://www.mvd.com/seanc
> >>
>
indi...@my-deja.com
sean...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Thanks, Laurie. That was sweet of you to comment. Regarding being a programmer and
> a designer, I have a theory about how that relates to my depression. Apparently I
> don't have a dominant brain hemisphere -- I was one of those kids who could write
> both left and right-handed, for instance. I broke my arm a couple of times when I
> was a boy, and I could easily write with the other hand. I have strong logical and
> creative impulses, but for the past year, I think they've gotten out of whack. My
> creative side has really suffered. Everything I create seems derivative and
> hackneyed to me, like I just can't think of anything wild or cool. I think this
> unbalance has something to do with my depression -- like maybe my right brain is
> going into hibernation, or worse, dieing.
>
> It's just a theory ...
>
> - Sean
>
> Whitleydlm wrote:
>
> > <<Subject: Re: Drugs & A Brave New World
> > From: "Sean C" sean...@hotmail.com >>
> >
> > http://www.mvd.com/seanc
> > >>
> >
> > covers.
> >
> > I would have figured Sean for a programmer; someone who writes code all day
> > long.
> >
> > He's actually an expert on (among other things) the aesthetic properties of
> > type and typography. I happen to think that is very cool stuff — and alot
> > sexier than intellectual arguments abou the medicinal qualities of illegal drug
> > substances.
> >
> > Who knew?
> >
> > laurie.
>
>
Sean, perhaps the medication has taken away some of your creativity? Just a
theory from the devil's advocate.
Mike