"What do you miss about being CF?"
Gutterboy1
In one of my irregular perusals of misc.kids, I noticed there's a lively thread
over there: "What do you miss from the days BK?" (That's Before Kids.)
There are a lot of wistful memories about sleeping in, making love to one's
spouse, making spontaneous plans, hobbies and meaningful activities, being able
to take a shower uninterrupted (!), using the bathroom alone (!!!), and having
adult company.
Nearly every single poster concludes with "...but I wouldn't trade my life now
for anything!" but the sheer number of responses, I believe, tell a different
story. (After all, we don't sit around here talking about the things we miss
about NOT having kids!)
I was feeling sorry for some of these folks until I came to the woman who
misses taking airplane trips alone. She mentioned that she'll soon be taking an
11-hour flight with a toddler and newborn twins in tow...and my sympathy
evaporated.
Gutterboy
Dorothea M. Rovner
Not a damn thing.
Oh -- oops, sorry -- I thought you wanted us to answer the question
in the header! :)
Dorothea
--
Dorothea M. Rovner |
Gradual Student <*> | High Priestess of Mung
dmrovner (at) students.wisc.edu |
E l i s e
On 2 Mar 1998 17:29:05 GMT, gutte...@aol.com (Gutterboy1) wrote:
>Nearly every single poster concludes with "...but I wouldn't trade my life now
>for anything!" but the sheer number of responses, I believe, tell a different
>story. (After all, we don't sit around here talking about the things we miss
>about NOT having kids!)
>
It makes you wonder how much pressure they feel to not be perceived as
a bad parent (because geez, why would anyone want to be judged to be
lacking at an activity they now spend their entire lives doing and for
which they've given up so much? Also, the risk of having one's
children taken away at the drop of the hat these days because of
abuse, real or imagined compounds the issue).
It reminds me of the interviews done with Soviet citizens in the
70s...they would complain about conditions (poor food quality, no heat
in their flats, etc., etc., etc.), but then end their statement with a
cheery "But Socialism is good! Long life to Comrade Brezhnev!".
The very similarity of the wording of most of these I-wouldn't-go-back
statements from parents gives me the erie feeling that they're not all
100% heartfelt.
Elise
Larisa Migachyov
Gutterboy1 (gutte...@aol.com) wrote:
: In one of my irregular perusals of misc.kids, I noticed there's a lively thread
: over there: "What do you miss from the days BK?" (That's Before Kids.)
:
: There are a lot of wistful memories about sleeping in, making love to one's
: spouse, making spontaneous plans, hobbies and meaningful activities, being able
: to take a shower uninterrupted (!), using the bathroom alone (!!!), and having
: adult company.
: for anything!" but the sheer number of responses, I believe, tell a different
: story. (After all, we don't sit around here talking about the things we miss
: about NOT having kids!)
Well, being an "on-the-fence" sort of creature, I do miss some things
about not having kids. I'm still not going to have any; but I can't say
that the decision has been as easy for me as it seems to be for most of
you.
--
Larisa Migachyov http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~lvm
Biomechanical Engineering l...@leland.stanford.edu
Stanford University lar...@roses.stanford.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Early to rise and early to bed makes a man healthy, wealthy, and dead.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HCF
Gutterboy1 (gutte...@aol.com) wrote:
> : In one of my irregular perusals of misc.kids, I noticed there's a lively thread
> : over there: "What do you miss from the days BK?" (That's Before Kids.)
> :
> : There are a lot of wistful memories about sleeping in, making love to one's
> : spouse, making spontaneous plans, hobbies and meaningful activities, being able
> : to take a shower uninterrupted (!), using the bathroom alone (!!!), and having
> : adult company.
> : Nearly every single poster concludes with "...but I wouldn't trade my life now
> : for anything!" but the sheer number of responses, I believe, tell a different
> : story. (After all, we don't sit around here talking about the things we miss
> : about NOT having kids!)
Hey Gutterboy,
Just out of curiosity, I looked up the thread on deja and read 40 posts
from it. My thought after reading all those posts? Thank GOD (dess)
that I will never have kids!!
Benefits of being CF for me:
I am always going to be able to get up on the weekends as late as I
want.
If DH and I want to go see a movie on the spur of the moment, we can.
When we want to buy a house, we'll actually be able to afford it without
working 2 jobs each.
If I am stressed out and want to take a long hot bath to unwind, I can
do it without screams of MOMMY!
My husband and I will never argue over the fact that he is not helping
with the children.
If we decide we want to take a cruise in November, we can do it. No
saving up money, no waiting for the kids summer vacation.
I will never have to put my career on hold for kids.
I will never suffer the bodily changes that come along with being
pregnant and giving birth.
I could go on and on with this.
What are the benefits of being CF for the rest of you?
Larisa Migachyov
HCF (h...@childfree.com) wrote:
:
: What are the benefits of being CF for the rest of you?
I can work in any field I like, without worrying about being able to
afford private-school fees or day care. <and prosthetics is not a very
lucrative field, unfortunately>
I can make very ambitious career plans.
If I ever want to, i can throw the above career plans to the wind and
become a composer without worrying about a family that I won't be able to
support.
Any plans that I make affect only me - I do not have to give up my dreams
or goals to suit either a spouse or children.
I can study in grad school and carry on 3 research/development projects
and spend 14 hours a day in the lab without worrying about babysitters,
being a bad mother, or a spouse who complains that I am never home.
Later, I will be able to start my own company and spend 14 or more hours a
day at work without worrying about babysitters, being a bad mother, or a
spouse who complains that I am never home.
Because I do not have children, I have time to play the piano, compose
music, write poetry, read compulsively, ski, bike, swim, and invent and
make silly new devices.
I can be as weird as I like without worrying about the bad example that I
am providing to the younger generation. :)
Linda Dachtyl
E l i s e wrote:
> The very similarity of the wording of most of these I-wouldn't-go-back
> statements from parents gives me the erie feeling that they're not all
> 100% heartfelt.
>
> Elise
There really isn't anything else acceptable that could be said. IMO on
that subject matter, silence is golden, the poor sprog didn't ask to be
born.
How do you feel when people answer this TRUTHFULLY? Negative answers are
little eerie to me because you can't unscramble an egg (pun intended).
If a parent answered in the negative, I wouldn't allow them to "catsit"
for me. I think it shows real thoughtlessness and an "I could give less
than a damn about anything or anybody" attitude.
Linda
Marisa Wood
On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, HCF wrote:
> Benefits of being CF for me:
>
> I am always going to be able to get up on the weekends as late as I
> want.
Yup :)
> I will never have to put my career on hold for kids.
No maternity leave, no cutting back to part-time because "I'm spending
more time with the chilllllllll-druuuuuuuuuuuuuun." (Which, btw, has
happened three times at my office in the past year.
> I will never suffer the bodily changes that come along with being
> pregnant and giving birth.
Yup :)
> What are the benefits of being CF for the rest of you?
I can actually afford to live in Seattle, AND make student loan payments,
on $8.50 an hour.
I have more time to spend on music and writing.
I don't have to worry about the effect my being an outspoken bisexual
Witch might have on my chillllllllllll-druuuuuuuuuuuuuun.
Marisa Wood Testimonial from client Max Zippel:
ish...@blarg.net "PurrrrrRRRRRRRR." /\_/\
Consummate Cat Sitter/ = o_o =
Feline Fantasies Fulfilled ^
Chris Petit
On Mon, 02 Mar 1998 11:23:23 -0800, HCF <h...@childfree.com> wrote:
>What are the benefits of being CF for the rest of you?
Not having somebody else totally dependent on me.
The ability to indulge my hobbies, without worrying that I am
somehow taking something away from my kid.
The ability to be alone in peace and quiet.
The ability to sleep as long as I want, especially on
weekends.
----
"Don't take life too seriously---after all, you'll never
get out alive"
Reply to bluemist at mindspring dot com --- nothing else
Waterridge
>What are the benefits of being CF for the rest of you?
Hmmm, lets see.
1) Not getting anymore stretch marks.
2) Sleeping in late.
3)Not having to work hard it I don't want to.
4) Sanity!
Waterridge
AGENTDBL07
What are the benefits of being CF for the rest of you?
1. Enjoying adult company, adult activities, adult friends, adult vacations,
adult music, etc.
2. Freedom
3. Independence
4. Not having to spend countless hours disciplining - except for my dogs,
which are much easier to deal with :)
5. Not having to be responsible for someone other than myself
6. Not dealing with homework, soccer games, misc. lessons, birthday parties,
and other activities that suck time away from worthwhile things.
7. Not destroying my love life/ sex life
I'm sure there are more... but someone else probably already covered them.
I have been lurking in this newsgroup for a couple of weeks. I have two
stepchildren, but have no children of my own and certainly no desire to have
any. It is relieving to find kindred souls!
Lilith
In article <34faf4a3...@news.tiac.net>, E l i s e wrote:
>On 2 Mar 1998 17:29:05 GMT, gutte...@aol.com (Gutterboy1) wrote:
>>for anything!" but the sheer number of responses, I believe, tell a different
>>story. (After all, we don't sit around here talking about the things we miss
>>about NOT having kids!)
>
>70s...they would complain about conditions (poor food quality, no heat
>in their flats, etc., etc., etc.), but then end their statement with a
>cheery "But Socialism is good! Long life to Comrade Brezhnev!".
>
>statements from parents gives me the erie feeling that they're not all
>100% heartfelt.
Exactly. It's more like
"I-can't-go-back-so-there's-no-way-in-hell-I'm-going-to-admit-even-to-myself-
that-this-sucks-a-lot-and-I-desperately-WOULD-like-to-go-back!"
>>I was feeling sorry for some of these folks until I came to the woman who
>>misses taking airplane trips alone. She mentioned that she'll soon be taking an
>>11-hour flight with a toddler and newborn twins in tow...and my sympathy
>>evaporated.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who would pay significantly more for
child-free transportation....
-althea
Karellen
<<What are the benefits of being CF for the rest of you?>>
I can be "The Wacky Dog Lady of [Hometown]" without being an unending source of
embarrassment to my children. ;)
I don't have to drive a minivan. I can drive a sporty little car.
I don't have to fake interest in soccer or T-ball. (Or risk jail time for
pounding on some other Little League Mom.)
I don't have to go to Upchucky Cheaze.
I don't have to help kids with algebra homework (and go through it all again
myself).
I don't have to put embarrassing bumper stickers advertising my kids' favorite
radio stations on my car (minivan) or listen to their music (be it Barney or
Spice Girls) every time we go anywhere.
PPierce2
Hmm...benefits of being childfree...
1. Keeping my own calendar and not having to go to kid things that do not
interest me IN THE LEAST or change plans at the last minute because of a kid.
2. Quiet, quiet, and more quiet around the house--even DH thinks I could have
been quite happy in a monastery.
3. No having to get kids ready to go to school/daycare/whatever in the
morning--this is my version of the seventh circle of hell. I despise chaos.
4. Ability to continue school or whatever job I want without taking a kid and
kid needs into consideration.
5. More patience for my job as a social worker--kids are very interesting and
challenging to work with, but I definitely don't want one of my own 24/7 or I'd
be someone else's psychotherapy client!
That's all off the top of my head...maybe more will come later!
PPierce2
Linda Dachtyl
Jeri Jo Thomas wrote:
>
> In article <34FB07...@childfree.com>, h...@childfree.com
> says...
> --> What are the benefits of being CF for the rest of you?
> -->
> Sometimes I think my need to not be responsible for anyone but
> myself borders on the pathological but, there you are. My main
> benefit of CFness.
That is one of the main reasons I quit teaching school, especially
elementary. You really can't discipline them in some situations, the
administrators won't back you because they are too afraid of the parents
etc...It's a big joke. Everything for the brat's little psyche. I simply
got sick of having no respect because there really were no rules. I
still cared about the kids safety etc, from a humanitarian standpoint,
but without iron clad rules and administration to back it up, it was
just one stressful headache. Glad to have washed my hands of it.
Linda
E l i s e
>How do you feel when people answer this TRUTHFULLY?
First of all, I believe that some, and even many, parents are being
truthful when they say they would not want to revert to their
pre-parent life. However, I have yet to actually hear a parent admit
to any significant remorse about their state (although their faces
sometimes tell a different tale), so I really don't know how I'd feel
if confronted by this situation.
If it does come up, I'll let ya know!
Elise
E l i s e
On Mon, 02 Mar 1998 11:23:23 -0800, HCF <h...@childfree.com> wrote:
>What are the benefits of being CF for the rest of you?
Hey, this is just like Oprah's "gratitude journal" idea!
OK, you asked:
o Tom has recently taken a job here in NH which caused him to
take an 18% pay cut, but which is more fun and allows him to advance
more technically (in fact, it allows him to return to a purely
technical position after years as a manager, which he finally realized
is not a role he enjoys). Probably wouldn't have done that if we were
childed.
o We took a huge chance by moving to another state, buying a
very unusual huge house/barn property (which won't be easy to re-sell
if we ever decide to), and opening a music school. Certainly wouldn't
have done *that* if we were childed.
o Because of my kidney disease (I have only one functioning
kidney), pregnancy would put me at high risk for gestational diabetes.
I don't have to risk that.
o Because I have polycystic ovaries, which is a disorder which
causes infertility (among other things) trying to get pregnant would:
o disrupt our sex life (we've got to have sex NOW so the
drugs can work, honey)...good way to trash one's marriage
o put me at a far higher risk than normal for multiples,
which would send me right over the edge
o given the high-multiples risk, force us to confront
the concept of selective reduction, which I don't want to confront,
not in this or any other life. I'm prochoice for everyone else, but
don't know how I'd handle this one, and I have a feeling it would be a
bad decision no matter what I decided
o Because of the PCO, which tends to put the entire endocrine
system off-balance, I have battled weight problems my entire life. I
work out often, and I need a lot of time for that. Besides the
changes every woman goes through due to pregnancy, I'd almost
certainly be at a higher-than-average risk for weight gain. Besides
the fact that I'm unwilling to put myself at risk for putting on
weight because I just don't WANT to, it's also a purely health-related
reason:
o Extra weight tends to put one at a heightened risk for
diabetes, which would (again) be an even more-than-usually bad disease
for me to have, given the fact that I have only one functioning kidney
(diabetes wreaks havok on kidney function). I don't want to end up on
dialysis.
o Lifestyle issues: Tom and I like to sleep late, sleep a lot,
sleep when we want, not have our sleep disturbed, stay up late,
(please note: SLEEP AND CUDDLING are extra important to us) run off
at the drop of a hat to goodness knows where in the car for a romp
with our dogs, go out to eat, have money to go out to eat, work all
day on our antique house, read the paper, and have lots and lots of
time to just lie on the floor with our dogs watching Politically
Incorrect (which, BTW, is on at 12:05 am on the East Coast).
o Job issues: Tom's new job calls for up to 20% travel. Right
now, he's in West Virginia all week (home on weekends) for at least
eight weeks. I can run the household fine with just me and the dogs,
but if we had a child to worry about, this could become a big problem.
I could be rendered a de facto "single parent" for weeks at a time,
which would be a real problem due to my irregular schedule (I don't
think a day care provider on earth would accomodate my schedule).
o Job issues, continued: I'm a musician, a music teacher, and
as of recently, an administrator of a small music school. I am
*particularly* busy during the after-school hours of 3 - 7 pm, because
that's when most of the classes are held at the studios. I also am
busy on many weekends and weekday evenings, playing music for
weddings, parties, etc., or attending concerts or conducting/attending
rehearsals. Tom could be rendered a de facto "single parent" on many,
many weekends and evenings.
o Evenings/weekends when I am not working are our time together.
That free time is protected and is nearly sacred: we don't answer the
phone, we don't encourage friends to just "drop in", we don't rush
anything (not cooking, not eating, not cleaning up, *nothing*). I
can't imagine wanting to introduce stress (or someone else's idea of
"tempo", least of all a child's) into this state of affairs.
We've been married 7 years and together a total of 12. We still love
each other. We even still *like* each other. We are friends --- most
of the time, even *best* friends (although sometimes there is nothing
that can duplicate the company of a girlfriend for me, IMO). I work
with children 6 days a week, and enjoy most of them most of the time,
but don't feel that anything is particularly missing. Tom never works
with children, spends occasional time with his nieces and nephews, and
enjoys that very limited time, *most* of the time. He is not (and has
never) looked to spend more time with children, and he definitely
doesn't feel anything is missing.
Hmmm...can't think of anything else right now, but maybe this is a
good start.
Elise
Chris Petit
>In article <34FB07...@childfree.com>, h...@childfree.com
>says...
>--> What are the benefits of being CF for the rest of you?
>-->
>Sometimes I think my need to not be responsible for anyone but
>myself borders on the pathological but, there you are. My main
>benefit of CFness.
I fully empathize with that POV. I also hate being
responsible for anyone except myself.
How many other CF people feel the same way?
Susan Haines
Chris Petit wrote:
>
> On Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:03:57 -0500, kata...@earthlink.net (Jeri Jo
> Thomas) wrote:
>
> >In article <34FB07...@childfree.com>, h...@childfree.com
> >says...
> >--> What are the benefits of being CF for the rest of you?
> >-->
> >Sometimes I think my need to not be responsible for anyone but
> >myself borders on the pathological but, there you are. My main
> >benefit of CFness.
>
> I fully empathize with that POV. I also hate being
> responsible for anyone except myself.
>
> How many other CF people feel the same way?
>
> ----
here.
Susan
K. Doty
>
enjoy going home, where the only sounds are the hum of the fish tank
and the ticking of the 100-year-old clock.
The ability of come home from work and relax, even take a nap, if I'm
tired. Not having to round up and supervise kids and fix dinner for
them (DH and I almost never eat before 8:00pm, and sometimes skip
dinner all together).
The fact that all the clutter in the house is *our* toys!
The ability to plop a Pink Floyd CD in the drive and zone out surfing
the Internet if I so desire, without worrying about what the kids are
into (unless it's the dogs, who managed to get into the garbage last
night.....).
Not having to stick to any sort of schedule, to do what I want when I
want, including sleeping in.
--
"From:" address is a spam-catcher!!!
Kathy Doty kmdoty (at) mindspring (dot) com
Visit the Childfree Archives at
http://www.mindspring.com/~sacrificial
Ilene Bilenky
I'm curious, and wanted to ask what are tge "things missed about not
having kids". Then I realized, it's not the same as people missing life
Before Kids. Those people *know* what they're missing. I wonder if
non-parents, like Larisa, are projecting their ideas about what they would
have if they were parents, and then feel they're going to miss it. It's
certainly easier to project a rosy idea than to look back into reality.
I do wonder- what do you think you'll miss? Or rather, what *are* you
missing now? (If you're on the fence, you may well not miss anything-
you'll find out for real).
Ilene B
In article <6deto8$p2$1...@nntp.Stanford.EDU>, l...@leland.Stanford.EDU
Ilene Bilenky
Actually, for me the question genuinely is the reverse. I cannot think of
a single positive aspect of being a parent (and many many negatives).
Being CF, to me, is the given, the default program. It's like asking how I
feel about breathing air.
Ilene B
Ilene Bilenky
In addition to everything that everyone has said- Being Cf means I don't
have to ever be around children. A blessing for all concerned. The younger
they are, the more I dislike them. And please don't even mention babies.
They repulse me.
Now, puppies, that's a whole 'nother story.
Ilene B "and the furballs"
AGENTDBL07
I did the same and feel the same.The kids were usually NOT the problem. The
parents not wanting them to take responsibility and the administrators that are
so threatened by the parents were.
Larisa Migachyov
Ilene Bilenky (ibil...@cris.com) wrote:
: I'm curious, and wanted to ask what are tge "things missed about not
: having kids". Then I realized, it's not the same as people missing life
: Before Kids. Those people *know* what they're missing. I wonder if
: non-parents, like Larisa, are projecting their ideas about what they would
: have if they were parents, and then feel they're going to miss it. It's
: certainly easier to project a rosy idea than to look back into reality.
: I do wonder- what do you think you'll miss? Or rather, what *are* you
: missing now? (If you're on the fence, you may well not miss anything-
: you'll find out for real).
: Ilene B
Hm. I'm not missing anything now; if anything, my life is too full. :)
However, I am rather ambivalent about missing the unique experience of
watching a squealing and disgusting bundle <yes, I hate babies> develop
into a unique person with their own ideas, interests, and passions, and of
helping and encouraging that development. My "on-the-fence" stance is my
mother's fault - she has been so positive and enthusiastic about being a
mother that now I feel that I'd be missing out on something if I don't
reproduce.
Larisa Migachyov
Chris Petit (blue...@hardreply.notmindspring.com) wrote:
: On Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:03:57 -0500, kata...@earthlink.net (Jeri Jo
: Thomas) wrote:
:
: >In article <34FB07...@childfree.com>, h...@childfree.com
: >says...
: >-->
: >myself borders on the pathological but, there you are. My main
: >benefit of CFness.
:
: I fully empathize with that POV. I also hate being
: responsible for anyone except myself.
:
: How many other CF people feel the same way?
<raising my hand> Me too! I have no children, pets, houseplants, or
anything that would die if I were to go away for 2 weeks and leave it
unattended.
naomi pardue
Lilith (lil...@dorsai.org) wrote:
> >The very similarity of the wording of most of these I-wouldn't-go-back
> >statements from parents gives me the erie feeling that they're not all
> >100% heartfelt.
>
> Exactly. It's more like
> "I-can't-go-back-so-there's-no-way-in-hell-I'm-going-to-admit-even-to-myself-
> that-this-sucks-a-lot-and-I-desperately-WOULD-like-to-go-back!"
Or perhaps it is you putting your own feelings on the feelings of people
who have kids.
You don't want kids and so you are unable to understand how someone else
might actually want them, and might feel that raising a child is more
rewarding than being able to make love on the living room floor at 3 p.m.
Sure, there are things about life BK that I miss. But no, I don't regret
having a child, and I find the rewards well worth the sacrifices. You feel
differently, so you shouldn't have kids. But don't assume that just because
a parent misses something about life BK, that they hate having children.
Naomi
AGENTDBL07
I have the same situation. My mother (and EVERY other human I know) is so
certain that I have made and am making an irreversible mistake that is going to
destroy my future happiness, it makes me question my own choices. I KNOW I
dislike children and have no desire at all to have them. I have always felt
that way (never played with dolls, never babysat, never oogled at other
people's babies) BUT, with the constant deluge of how life is incomplete
without having children, I still question if I really am not considering
something. I even question if there is something wrong with me. Part of this is
because my husband has two children whom he is obsessed with and could never
imagine not having children. I wish there were more CBC people in my world!
Christine
Larisa wrote:
<snip> My "on-the-fence" stance is my mother's fault - she has been so
Gutterboy1
Wrote Larisa:
>My "on-the-fence" stance is my mother's fault - she has been so
>positive and enthusiastic about being a mother that now I feel that I'd be
missing out on something if I don't reproduce.
And Christine added:
>My mother (and EVERY other human I know) is so certain that I have made and am
making an irreversible mistake that is going
to destroy my future happiness, it makes me question my own choices. I KNOW I
dislike children and have no desire at all to have them.
Both of you--PLEASE, PLEASE listen to your own inner voice and ignore the white
noise of society. It is not your mother or anyone else who is going to be
sacrificing an interesting career, giving up almost all free time, or becoming
sleep-deprived in order to placate a fussy child.
I am sure there are other choices your mothers have made that would not be
right for you. Based on your posts, I would say that having children also falls
in that category--and you both have stated quite clearly that YOU DO NOT LIKE
KIDS.
If there's even a fraction of a chance that, after having given birth, you
might take the newborn in your hands and wonder, "Oh, God, what have I done?,"
then having children is not for you.
And, Christine, this group was designed for people like you who have no one
else in their lives to back up their decision to be CF. That's why it's
alt.SUPPORT.childfree and not alt.kids.dislike. You needn't feel you're alone.
Gutterboy
P.S. On the topic of this thread...
When I hit my midlife crisis (a bit prematurely), I quit a good job, loaded my
belongings in the back of a Ryder truck, and drove 2000 miles in search of a
more pleasant way of life. I had no job guarantees in my new home, only a very
few acquaintances, and a general sense that I was stepping off the edge of the
earth in a way I hadn't since I left home at 18. It's had its ups and downs,
but most days I still wake up feeling like I've emerged from a chrysalis and
wondering who that "other person" was.
Do you think I could have done any of this with sproggen, or would I have been
trapped and unhappy in my former life?
E l i s e
On 3 Mar 1998 17:00:22 GMT, agent...@aol.com (AGENTDBL07) wrote:
BUT, with the constant deluge of how life is incomplete
>without having children, I still question if I really am not considering
>something. I even question if there is something wrong with me.
I sometimes wonder whether I will be missing out on a good
adult-to-adult relationship with a child (once they grow up, that is).
I've seen some adult/child relationships, once the child reaches
adulthood, that are wonderful.
In terms of the "nurturing a young child" thing, I've not dealt much
with truly young children, but over the years have taught kids from
age 7 or so, right on up through high school (in addition to adult
students). I've had no shortage of teaching, nurturing, and watching
growth in children, and I really do enjoy it. The nice perk is that I
don't have to deal with these kids when they're sick; I get to help
them towards a very proud moment (recitals or concerts in front of
their family and friends); I don't have to pay for their upkeep; I get
to help them learn about music, a field which will bring them a lot of
enjoyment over the years.
Elise
E l i s e
On 3 Mar 1998 16:53:57 GMT, npa...@indiana.edu (naomi pardue) wrote:
>Or perhaps it is you putting your own feelings on the feelings of people
>who have kids.
Perhaps. There's really no way to know for sure, is there?
>You don't want kids and so you are unable to understand how someone else
>might actually want them, and might feel that raising a child is more
>rewarding than being able to make love on the living room floor at 3 p.m.
Just as you are apparently unable to understand why CFs would want a
discussion group all of their very own, without sustained comment from
parents. At least, I hope that's what it is; if not, it's that you're
just spiteful. I hope, for your daughter's sake, that it's more of
the former --- an inability to understand, and and inability or
unwillingness to place other's wishes to have a support group over
your whim of gaining some entertainment and a place to store your
soapbox.
Sorry to be a pain in the ass, Naomi...I was just beginning to hope
you had flown our little coop for once and for all.
Elise
sei...@ma.ultranet.com
In article <34FC23...@umich.edu>,
Susan Haines <sha...@umich.edu> wrote and quoted Chris Petit:
> > I fully empathize with that POV. I also hate being
> > responsible for anyone except myself.
> >
> > How many other CF people feel the same way?
> >
> here.
> Susan
I'm a non-pet owner too, but it does seem we're in the minority. Maybe CF
people who own pets are really sublimating their deep-seated need to have
children.
(signed) Scott "Duck and Cover" Eiler B{D>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Mr Tisane
Scott "Duck and Cover" Eiler B{D> wrote:
<<I'm a non-pet owner too, but it does seem we're in the minority. Maybe CF
people who own pets are really sublimating their deep-seated need to have
children.>>
-----------------------------------------
Oh, man, have you been talking to my mother?
But hey, there did come a time (33) when I started thinking, I wish I had a
little guy around. A little guy who would look at me adoringly with big brown
eyes, who would want to play with me when I want to play, who would be a great
pal.
So I got a dog.
And then another.
Kipling, who likes her dogs much more now that they *aren't* puppies
The Shadow
> I fully empathize with that POV. I also hate being
> responsible for anyone except myself.
>
> How many other CF people feel the same way?
myself, I have to say that the *best* thing in the world is reaching an
age where I'm not a free baybeezitter for my sibling.
Since the parents are still alive and kicking, and the youngest sprog is
a F*** U*, I wonder when that will be?
Who knows?
--
The Shadow!
********************
I know what evil lurks in the hearts of men. Really, I do.
********************
There is no black and white
my love
only shades of gray
The only way to go
my love
is simply not to stay.
--Anon.
Sun Hill
Karellen wrote:
>
> <<What are the benefits of being CF for the rest of you?>>
>
> embarrassment to my children. ;)
Hey, embarrassing your children might actually be *one* reason to
actually have them! ;->
Ducking, Midwest Monica
To reply, remove "nospam" from my e-mail address.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"It's a technical term. It means the wheels have come off."
Dorothea M. Rovner
Well, here's one that I haven't mentioned before, because it just
came up:
Fiance quit his job recently because he was sick to death of his
bosses dicking around on his contract. (A month and a half late, just
for *starters*.) He's been looking for work, but his work wants are
pretty specific, so no luck so far.
And it's not exactly a stress-free time for either of us. Wedding
plans are hitting high gear, I have Ph.D prelims in August, and he's
trying to finish a book (non-fiction).
So I said, "Look, hon, why don't you wait until after the wedding
to start serious job-hunting again?"
And relief spread visibly over his face, and he said "Can I *do*
that?"
Sure he can. We can tide ourselves over on savings. Not a problem.
With kids, we wouldn't *have* those savings to tide ourselves over
on. And he'd have to take the first shit job that offered, just to pay
kiddie bills. And that shit job would have to be full-time, too, since
TAs don't make much even *after* the tuition waiver (although it's *much*
better now than it was last semester, and I ain't bitchin'!). And then,
of course, there'd be daycare costs...
I can't imagine it. I don't *want* to imagine it. And I don't
have to.
Dorothea
--
Dorothea M. Rovner |
Gradual Student <*> | High Priestess of Mung
dmrovner (at) students.wisc.edu |
Dorothea M. Rovner
> I'm a non-pet owner too, but it does seem we're in the minority. Maybe CF
> people who own pets are really sublimating their deep-seated need to have
> children.
>
> (signed) Scott "Duck and Cover" Eiler B{D>
And maybe breeders are sublimating their deep-seated need to have
pets... c'mon, the one makes as much sense as the other!
Linda Dachtyl
Gutterboy1 wrote:
>
> When I hit my midlife crisis (a bit prematurely), I quit a good job, loaded my
> belongings in the back of a Ryder truck, and drove 2000 miles in search of a
> more pleasant way of life. I had no job guarantees in my new home, only a very
> few acquaintances, and a general sense that I was stepping off the edge of the
> earth in a way I hadn't since I left home at 18. It's had its ups and downs,
> but most days I still wake up feeling like I've emerged from a chrysalis and
> wondering who that "other person" was.
>
> Do you think I could have done any of this with sproggen, or would I have been
> trapped and unhappy in my former life?
Sounds very familiar. I left a miserable teaching job. I NEVER wanted to
teach in the schools, only college teaching ever appealed to me. I
thought I had to pay dues by teaching in the schools and BOY, did I
ever. Now I am teaching college, through a very fortunate set of
circumstances, for which I am grateful.
I also still have true aspirations of making it in the music biz, my
way, giving the world the best music since the progressive rock heyday.
I know I could not even consider gigging at the Moose Lodge to make
bucks to improve my equipment if I was "sprog-laden". I do really love
my nephews and niece, but I cannot imagine myself pregnant or dealing
with the preschool years without an IV of Prozac attached to me or
staying drunk all of the time to drown my sorrows about never really
being able to pursue my dream.
I feel sorry for people who bought into "the lie"....(having kids just
because of societal pressure rather than desire). I do believe some
people just aren't bright enough or confident enough in themselves to do
what they truly want to do if it isn't of the "cookie cutter" variety
that society tries to RAM down our throats. It is truly pitiful and I do
believe many naive people have thought kids would bring
them...fulfullment, happiness, etc.. and have been sorely disappointed.
Some people just don't have the b*lls to live their lives without "right
and left" approval from others.
Linda
AGENTDBL07
Thanks for the encouragement!
Christine
AGENTDBL07
Someone wrote:
>You don't want kids and so you are unable to understand how someone else might
actually want them, and might feel that raising a child is more rewarding than
being able to make love on the living room floor at 3 p.m.
What's so unrewarding about making love on the living room floor at 3PM?...
Christine
Kent Parks
Susan Haines (sha...@umich.edu) wrote:
: I agree completely. One reason why I'm proabably the only non-pet owner
: here.
Interesting...what is it like, being the owner of a non-pet? :)
Kent
Lilith
In article <34fc1...@hebel.rol3.com>, Lo Duster wrote:
>On Tue, 03 Mar 1998 07:51:41 GMT, ely...@nospamthanks.tiac.net (E l i
>s e ) wrote:
>>On Mon, 02 Mar 1998 21:38:27 -0500, Linda Dachtyl
>><lind...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>How do you feel when people answer this TRUTHFULLY?
>>First of all, I believe that some, and even many, parents are being
>>truthful when they say they would not want to revert to their
>>pre-parent life. However, I have yet to actually hear a parent admit
>>to any significant remorse about their state (although their faces
>>sometimes tell a different tale), so I really don't know how I'd feel
>>if confronted by this situation.
I believe that there are people out there who are genuinely suited to
raising children, and who love raising children.
(I find it hard to undersand, but I belive that it is so)
However, these people are *definitely* a minority of the people who are
*having* children!
How many pregnancies are "accidents"? How many births occur just because
the afflicted individual doesn't believe in abortion? How many people have
children just because they believe it's the socially proper thing to do?
I am *sure* that many parents are extremely remorseful.
>well, my mother was never shy to admit that in front of us and yes,
>that was a major influence on my decision to remain childfree because
>i KNOW i would end up resenting my kids too...
>it's just sad that being CBC obviously never was an option for my
>mother (yeah, i know, i wouldn't be here then - but i wouldn't care,
>right?!)
Part of the reason I am sure that I will never have children is also
because of my mother. My mother has three kids, and was a wonderful,
loving mother. She frequently told us that her children were the best
thing that ever happened in her life. But when she would say that, I could
never help thinking of all the things she could have had in her life,
which she *couldn't* have *because* of children.
-althea
naomi pardue
E l i s e (ely...@nospamthanks.tiac.net) wrote:
>
> Just as you are apparently unable to understand why CFs would want a
> discussion group all of their very own, without sustained comment from
> parents.
It wasn't so long ago that the general consensus on the group was that
parents were welcome, as long as they didn't criticize the CF choice.
I don't criticize the CF choice. When the converstaion moves off topic
(to NON-CF related topics, such as discussing the 'true' feelings of
parents, or criticizing people who WANT to have children, or WANT to
breastfeed) I may put in a word. How is my word less appropriate than
the word of a CF person in such a situation?
Naomi
naomi pardue
Not a thing. It is very rewarding if your back can handle it. But some people
may find other things MORE rewarding, and be willing to give up that
particular pleasure for a while.
Naomi
Brenda Sharpe
Waterridge (water...@aol.com) writes:
>>What are the benefits of being CF for the rest of you?
I couldn't help but notice how many responses mentioned SLEEP!
For me some benefits are:
- Sleeping in the nude (the cat doesn't care)
- Spending time with my husband, doing things together (like dropping
everything and going flyfishing for the weekend)
- Ignoring teachers' strikes
- Maintaining my lifelong fiction of selling everything I own and going
wandering around the world (okay, it'll never actually happen, but as long
as I don't have kids, it _could_!)
And many more...
--
Brenda J. Sharpe -- aj...@freenet.carleton.ca
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Disclaimer: Pushing 40 and born in Fredericton, NB :)
**************************************************
Rabbit
Brenda Sharpe wrote:
>
> Waterridge (water...@aol.com) writes:
> >>What are the benefits of being CF for the rest of you?
>
> I couldn't help but notice how many responses mentioned SLEEP!
>
> For me some benefits are:
>
> - Sleeping in the nude (the cat doesn't care)
>
the middle of the night!
Rabbit
Rabbit
>
> I am *sure* that many parents are extremely remorseful.
>
I don't know if "remorseful" is the word I would use. I know we're
looking at the whole childrearing thing with a jaundiced eye. I do
believe, however, that a LOT of parents discovered it was considerably
more than they bargained for.
Rabbit
Rabbit
Because the only two words you seem to use as "yes, but", "yes, but",
"yes,but" ...
lk...@osf1.gmu.edu
In article <34FC23...@umich.edu>,
Susan Haines <sha...@umich.edu> wrote:
> ----
> I agree completely. One reason why I'm proabably the only non-pet owner
> here.
>
I'm also pet-free. No way would I alter my life or schedule for a pet.
Plants are my limit. You can't water a cat and leave it for a week.
Larry
Ilene Bilenky
Well, *having* a child is just as irreversible (or more so) than *not*
having a child. Six of one, half dozen t'other..
Ilene B
In article <19980303170...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
agent...@aol.com (AGENTDBL07) wrote:
> I have the same situation. My mother (and EVERY other human I know) is so
organi...@hotmail.com
>
> What are the benefits of being CF for the rest of you?
>
I'll go along with some of the other posters and say:
Being able to sleep through the night, and late if I feel like it!
Spur of the moment trips, w/o worrying about formula, toys, etc.
NO CRYING, ie piece and quiet (I do love nature, and quietness).
I got a puppy a few months ago, anyone else think it is alot like
having a kid? (at first, when they get older, it gets better, I know)
I say, never again! Live and learn, I guess. It was really my BF who
wanted him, so he takes care of him, mostly.
I'm a first time poster - Hello to everyone! Went to the flower show
in Philly yesterday and got hit by a couple of strollers. Those infants
must of really enjoyed the experience. They should charge them double, at
least!
Irene
South NJ
HCF
Linda Dachtyl wrote:
> I feel sorry for people who bought into "the lie"....(having kids just
> because of societal pressure rather than desire). I do believe some
> people just aren't bright enough or confident enough in themselves to do
> what they truly want to do if it isn't of the "cookie cutter" variety
> that society tries to RAM down our throats. It is truly pitiful and I do
> believe many naive people have thought kids would bring
> them...fulfullment, happiness, etc.. and have been sorely disappointed.
> Some people just don't have the b*lls to live their lives without "right
> and left" approval from others.
>
> Linda
I think some of it may also be that some people (usually women) have
nothing else to derive their identity from. For example, one woman I
know is married to a professional. This woman went one year to some
kind of business training, but never finished.
When we all get together (my husband is also a professional and I am in
school), I think her kids are her way to say "I may not be as educated
as you all are, but I have kids so I have worth."
I'm not saying this is true for all parents, but I think for those who
have nothing in common with those around them, it gives them something
that bestows worth on them.
I think the woman I mentioned truly does love her kids, but I don't know
what she is going to do when they grow up and she can no longer derive
her worth from them.
HCF
HCF
naomi pardue wrote:
>
> E l i s e (ely...@nospamthanks.tiac.net) wrote:
> >
> > Just as you are apparently unable to understand why CFs would want a
> > discussion group all of their very own, without sustained comment from
> > parents.
>
> It wasn't so long ago that the general consensus on the group was that
> parents were welcome, as long as they didn't criticize the CF choice.
> I don't criticize the CF choice. When the converstaion moves off topic
> (to NON-CF related topics, such as discussing the 'true' feelings of
> parents, or criticizing people who WANT to have children, or WANT to
> breastfeed) I may put in a word. How is my word less appropriate than
> the word of a CF person in such a situation?
>
> Naomi
I'm breaking my Naomi free-zone to try and explain this to you because I
think it is important for you to know.
What is unappropriate is your argumnetative nature and your constant
commenting about topics that you, as a parent, are not invited into. If
we want to bitch about women who breastfeed in public, we should be
allowed to do that without your constant interference.
Your "yes, but" comments are not appreciated either. You seem to want
to argue against everything someone says.
The very fact that people here have actually formed Naomi free-zones and
asked you on numerous occasions to go away should tell you something.
There are other parents here, like Frank for instance, who contribute
positively to this group. You could really take a lesson from him about
how to behave when you want to participate in a group that goes against
something you believe in.
HCF (returning to her Naomi free zone and awaiting Naomi's inevitable
defense of herself)
Jason Gill
Do you get rugburn too? Oh, that's right. You can't do that anymore till
after 10pm when the kids are asleep and the lights are off.
In article <6djhs1$g0n$3...@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>, npa...@indiana.edu (naomi
EVA STOWERS
sei...@ma.ultranet.com wrote:
: I'm a non-pet owner too, but it does seem we're in the minority. Maybe CF
: people who own pets are really sublimating their deep-seated need to have
: children.
:
: (signed) Scott "Duck and Cover" Eiler B{D>
Delurking here -- hey, I resent that :) The only thing I sublimated all
those years was my deep-seated need to have a dog!
I read a short article in Vogue a couple of years ago where the author
wondered how many people had babies when they really wanted puppies.
Eva
Pete
> naomi pardue wrote:
> > It wasn't so long ago that the general consensus on the group was that
> > parents were welcome, as long as they didn't criticize the CF choice.
> > I don't criticize the CF choice. When the converstaion moves off topic
> > (to NON-CF related topics, such as discussing the 'true' feelings of
> > parents, or criticizing people who WANT to have children, or WANT to
> > breastfeed) I may put in a word. How is my word less appropriate than
> > the word of a CF person in such a situation?
> >
> > Naomi
I can only speak for myself (but I know I have allies here) but AFAIC
breeders (and *you* are in the dictionary as such I assure you) are *not*
welcome here by me and I will continue to make life as hard for *you* as I
can when I'm here. Your devil's advocacy and pro-natalism make me and
others want to PUKE and If i knew a way to blow up your computer through a
server, I would certainly do so.
Not only is your *word* not appropriate here, your *presence* is not
appropriate.
So please, for the good of the nation, GO THE FUCK AWAY!
Naomi, I HATE you...pete
--
Surely you"re *smart* enough to remove the spam control...
Greg & Robin Kornides
HCF wrote:
>
> I think the woman I mentioned truly does love her kids, but I don't know
> what she is going to do when they grow up and she can no longer derive
> her worth from them.
I wouldn't be surprised if she applies great pressure to her children to
be 'successful professionals' (whatever that might be) and to provide
her with grandchildren to brag on. "... my daughter is a brain surgeon,
and my son is is a rocket scientist, and look here, these are my
grandchildren; aren't they just perfect?... ... ..." :P
robin, lucky to have an unpretentious family :)
Trish Connery
> <<What are the benefits of being CF for the rest of you?>>
>
Well, last night is a good example. Got home from work about 7:45 pm. My
SO wasn't home from his work yet. I didn't feel like cooking, I didn't
feel like cleaning, I didn't feeling like doing much of anything. So I
sat on the couch and ate ice cream (Nutty Chunky Chocolate.....my
favorite!).
Do you think I'd be able to do this if I had spawn to care for? HA!
And lest you think I'm some sort of ice cream junkie (well, I am, but
reformed), I don't do this very often, rarely in fact. But the point is,
I CAN. :^)
--
Trish Connery
Los Angeles (Hollywood), CA
E l i s e
On 4 Mar 1998 12:35:10 GMT, npa...@indiana.edu (naomi pardue) wrote:
>E l i s e (ely...@nospamthanks.tiac.net) wrote:
>>
>> Just as you are apparently unable to understand why CFs would want a
>> discussion group all of their very own, without sustained comment from
>> parents.
>
>It wasn't so long ago that the general consensus on the group was that
>parents were welcome, as long as they didn't criticize the CF choice.
>I don't criticize the CF choice. When the converstaion moves off topic
>(to NON-CF related topics, such as discussing the 'true' feelings of
>parents, or criticizing people who WANT to have children, or WANT to
>breastfeed) I may put in a word. How is my word less appropriate than
>the word of a CF person in such a situation?
>
What I meant by "sustained comment" is parents who, rather than
passing through and adding their $.02 on a particular topic that's
important to them, stay on a sustained basis and rattle off their
views for the umpteenth time. Seriously, Naomi, I (and many others
here) could write a treatise on your particular views, as we are all
so well-acquainted with them. Frequently, many of us will preface a
comment by saying "I know that Naomi would disagree with me in this
particular way on this topic, but" or "I know you'll want to chime in
on this, Naomi, but please don't bother"... The fact that you're
relatively tolerant of the CF view notwithstanding, your proportional
presence on this NG is really a bit bizarre.
Elise
Shari Bernhard
In article <6djr3o$7su$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, organi...@hotmail.com writes:
>
> > What are the benefits of being CF for the rest of you?
> >
> Being able to sleep through the night, and late if I feel like it!
>
> Spur of the moment trips, w/o worrying about formula, toys, etc.
>
> NO CRYING, ie piece and quiet (I do love nature, and quietness).
Yup, Yup, and YESSIREE! My idea of a great evening is having a nice
quiet dinner with my husband and then enjoying a show or two on TV
or hanging out on the couch reading the paper (with the everpresent
dachshund or two warming my lap and feet :->), and not having to
answer demands like, "I wanna glass of water!" "Read me a story!"
"WAH!!! There's a big ugly monster in my closet!!!" What a pain.
Jeff and I enjoy spontaneity of making love on the futon just because
we are seized by the emotional and physical whims of the moment. Try
doing *that* when the kids are in the next room.
I've slept in the nude since I was 14. I don't want to change that now.
Besides the sleep deprivation of babies, and the constant demands of
toddlers and little kids, there are all sorts of other issues as they
get older. Kids get that chip on their shoulder earlier and earlier.
I see it now at 8 or 9, when it used to be at 13 or 14 when I was a
kid. At 13 or 14 now, they're smoking, telling their parents to f*ck
off, hanging around in malls, and practicing being a surly teenager.
Gosh, there are so many more reasons why I never wanted kids. I just
never wanted that kind of life. There was nothing about it that appealed
to me.
> I got a puppy a few months ago, anyone else think it is alot like
> having a kid? (at first, when they get older, it gets better, I know)
> I say, never again! Live and learn, I guess. It was really my BF who
> wanted him, so he takes care of him, mostly.
Been there, done that. I've had a puppy twice, once when I was 12 and
once when I was in my 30s. I was lucky. They were both pretty good
dogs and grew up fast, but as much as I love puppies, I never want to have
to do that much work again. I currently have 4 dogs (3 dachsies and a
shepherd mix, all rescued as adults), and 3 cats (all over 16). Yeah,
it's more responsibility than not having pets, but they have their rewards
(I guess that what parents say about having kids). I can't explain it,
and to be blunt, I don't have to, but I could never live without at least
2 dogs. My husband, a recent convert to dogdom from catdom, like many
converts, has gone overboard for dogs. I'm just lucky we feel the same.
For some reason, making the required alterations in our schedules and
lives for our pets doesn't even being to bother me as much as it would
having to adjust for the dependency of kids. I can't tell you why, though.
> I'm a first time poster - Hello to everyone! Went to the flower show
> in Philly yesterday and got hit by a couple of strollers. Those infants
> must of really enjoyed the experience. They should charge them double, at
> least!
>
> Irene
> South NJ
Hi, Irene! I'm a NJ transplant to FL. South Jersey is a whole different
state from northern NJ where I'm from, and beautiful. I used to canoe in
the Pine Barrens. Just lovely.
Welcome to a.s.c!
|=========================================================================|
| ~0 Shari Bernhard Shari.B...@mail.ccur.com 0~ |
| _|+/|_+ 954.973.5426 Sr. Software Support Engineer +-||_+| |
| (*)>----(*) Ft. Lauderdale FL Concurrent Computer Corp. (*)(*) |
|=========================================================================|
Rabbit
> I'm a first time poster - Hello to everyone! Went to the flower show
> in Philly yesterday and got hit by a couple of strollers. Those infants
> must of really enjoyed the experience. They should charge them double, at
> least!
>
> Irene
> South NJ
>
Is the Philadelphia Flower Show "worth" it? I'd be traveling about 11
hours ...
Rabbit
(Organic gardener all the way)
TJ Warden
Colleen, you've got to stay away from the Chiller!!! I've been wanting to
take lessons there, but I can't stand the thought of being the only 40ish
woman in a group of 8 year old brats. I'm not sure I could resist the urge
to slap a few of them.
Tori
twarden at ix.netcom.com
Founder-wanna be of the "National Slap a Child Day"
Larisa Migachyov
anews.com>:
Distribution:
lk...@osf1.gmu.edu wrote:
: In article <34FC23...@umich.edu>,
: Susan Haines <sha...@umich.edu> wrote:
: > ----
: > I agree completely. One reason why I'm proabably the only non-pet owner
: > here.
: > Susan
: >
:
: I'm also pet-free. No way would I alter my life or schedule for a pet.
: Plants are my limit. You can't water a cat and leave it for a week.
The only plants I ever had were cacti; especially during the winter
months, they require no care whatsoever.
--
Larisa Migachyov http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~lvm
Biomechanical Engineering l...@leland.stanford.edu
Stanford University lar...@roses.stanford.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Early to rise and early to bed makes a man healthy, wealthy, and dead.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lara
organi...@hotmail.com wrote:
> I'm a first time poster - Hello to everyone! Went to the flower show
> in Philly yesterday and got hit by a couple of strollers. Those infants
> must of really enjoyed the experience. They should charge them double, at
> least!
Hi Irene, and welcome to the group! I'm based in Langhorne, about 20-30
minutes northeast of Philly, so I'm not too far from you. I got stared at by
some rude sprog at the mall while I was eating my dinner. The Look of Death
worked on one. I've never really understood the expression, "her voice trailed
off" until I heard this kid.
-- LW, who had to put a new tire on the Festiva because -- now I don't know
much about cars, but I'm pretty sure when you can see the metal INSIDE the
tire on the OUTSIDE, it's time to replace the tire!
-----------------------------------
"I could go crazy on a night like tonight,
Summer's beginning to give up her fight...."
-- Indigo Girls
Find my web address at http://www.op.net/~covenant/.
Ilene Bilenky
Hi, Irene, and welcome!
Ilene formerly from Cherry Hill (and must admit to hating every inch of
the place)
> In article <6djr3o$7su$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, organi...@hotmail.com
writes:
>
> > I'm a first time poster - Hello to everyone! Went to the flower show
> > in Philly yesterday and got hit by a couple of strollers. Those infants
> > must of really enjoyed the experience. They should charge them double, at
> > least!
> >
> > Irene
> > South NJ
naomi pardue
Distribution:
HCF (h...@childfree.com) wrote:
> I'm breaking my Naomi free-zone to try and explain this to you because I
> think it is important for you to know.
>
> What is unappropriate is your argumnetative nature and your constant
> commenting
Constant commenting? I contribute to an occassional thread. hell, I came
back from vacation to find 2,000 posts on the group. So obviously
my contributions are not making up a significant percentage of the
conversation here...
about topics that you, as a parent, are not invited into. If
> we want to bitch about women who breastfeed in public, we should be
> allowed to do that without your constant interference.
>
This is a newsgroup. A public place. People do not have to be 'invited
into conversations.' Now ... I am curious. Suppose I DIDN"T have kids.
If I didn't have kids I would still see nothing wrong with (for example)
a mother breastfeeding a baby. So would I then be permitted to add
my POV to the conversation? Or are no alternative viewpoints ever
allowed in this hallowed setting?
And, more to the point ... breastfeeding is off-topic on this newsgroup.
A mother's choice to breastfeed doesn't affect you a bit. It doen't
intrude on your right to be child-free, it doesn't cost you money, it
doesn't harm you. So the topic is completely off-topic and should be,
therefore, as open to alternative views as threads on coffee, or southern
cooking, or favorite music or engagement rings. I didn't start the thread
on breastfeeding. I chose to contribute, just as I've contributed to other
off-topic threads.
> Your "yes, but" comments are not appreciated either. You seem to want
> to argue against everything someone says.
No, I don't. My posting style is such that I don't, in general post a lot
of "I agree absolutely!" comments. I think it's a waste of time.
>
> The very fact that people here have actually formed Naomi free-zones and
> asked you on numerous occasions to go away should tell you something.
>
Yes, it has. It has told me that some people are narrow minded. That some
people are only interested in hanging out with people who are exactly like
them and who agree with them on all issues. But not all people are like that.
> There are other parents here, like Frank for instance, who contribute
> positively to this group. You could really take a lesson from him about
> how to behave when you want to participate in a group that goes against
> something you believe in.
How does this group go against somethingI believe in? The name of the
group is alt.support.childfree. It is not "alt-support.we-all-hate-kids"
or "alt-support-lets-sit-around-all-day-and-trash-people-who-made-
different-choices."
I fully support your right to be childfree.
I think it is horrible that there are people who think they have the right
to tell you that your life-choice is a wrong one. Your life is the right
one for you. But I have a hard time understanding how people who feel
strongly about their right to live their own lives can then turn around
and judge the life choices of others ... how is it any better for YOU
(generic) to say "Parents are all miserable when they have children ...
they must go on popping them out so they can get lots of attention" then
for a parent to say "People without children must all be miserable ...
they will never know true happiness until they have kids."
Naomi
naomi pardue
Trish Connery (conn...@earthlink.net) wrote:
> > <<What are the benefits of being CF for the rest of you?>>
> SO wasn't home from his work yet. I didn't feel like cooking, I didn't
> feel like cleaning, I didn't feeling like doing much of anything. So I
> sat on the couch and ate ice cream (Nutty Chunky Chocolate.....my
> favorite!).
>
> Do you think I'd be able to do this if I had spawn to care for? HA!
Yup. Parents are allowed to sit on the couch and eat ice-cream. (Unless
they've made a rule that you can't eat in the living room.)
Naomi
Karellen
HCF<<When we all get together (my husband is also a professional and I am in
school), I think her kids are her way to say "I may not be as educated as you
all are, but I have kids so I have worth.">>
One's "worth," IMO, comes from within. It does not come from being "a
professional," "a student," or "a mother." If someone is a good person and has
something to offer the world, "titles" shouldn't be important.
-K. (feeling we're about to get into degree snobbery again)
Karellen
Rabbit<<I do believe, however, that a LOT of parents discovered it was
considerably more than they bargained for.>>
And even for those who actually did regret it, what would be the point in
saying so? On the "social acceptability scale," there's not much they can do
about it now. Why not try to make the best of it?
Karellen
NJ Irene<<I got a puppy a few months ago, anyone else think it is alot like
having a kid? (at first, when they get older, it gets better, I know) I say,
never again! Live and learn, I guess.>>
While I absolutely love puppies - even (especially?) the skunky puppy smell - I
prefer to adopt older dogs. I got the most recent one at age 5. Well past the
chew-and-destroy, tear up the wall to wall carpet stage! :)
(And, they need homes a bit more desperately, too.)
Karellen
Trish (re vegging on the couch and eating ice cream for dinner)<<Do you think
I'd be able to do this if I had spawn to care for? HA!>>
You probably shouldn't, but I've personally known parents who do *exactly*
that. Scary, huh. :(
Rabbit
naomi pardue wrote:
>
> Trish Connery (conn...@earthlink.net) wrote:
> > > <<What are the benefits of being CF for the rest of you?>>
> > Well, last night is a good example. Got home from work about 7:45 pm. My
> > SO wasn't home from his work yet. I didn't feel like cooking, I didn't
> > feel like cleaning, I didn't feeling like doing much of anything. So I
> > sat on the couch and ate ice cream (Nutty Chunky Chocolate.....my
> > favorite!).
> >
>
> they've made a rule that you can't eat in the living room.)
>
> Naomi
While the children go without dinner? Read the whole thing.
Rabbit
Kent Parks
naomi pardue (npa...@indiana.edu) wrote:
:
: Yup. Parents are allowed to sit on the couch and eat ice-cream. (Unless
Sitting on a couch and eating ice cream didn't do too well in the Menendez
household...
Kent
E l i s e
On 5 Mar 1998 01:47:37 GMT, npa...@indiana.edu (naomi pardue) wrote:
>> Do you think I'd be able to do this if I had spawn to care for? HA!
>
>Yup. Parents are allowed to sit on the couch and eat ice-cream. (Unless
>they've made a rule that you can't eat in the living room.)
Perfect case in point. If she were a parent to a young child, she
would have been picking up that child from daycare, making its dinner,
and getting it to bed during this time, particularly since her husband
was not yet home. If there was to be a date with ice cream destiny
that night, it most likely wouldn't have taken place until at least 9
pm.
I hate to split hairs which have already been split, but your return
puts me right in the mood, Naomi.
Elise
Stephie Coane
I agree - though you can't always distinguish between one's worth "within"
and what one does as it affects others. But if someone feels that what
they have to offer the world is well-raised offspring (note qualification)
I personally think that is a perfectly valid source of pride (for them),
even if I myself would run away screaming for the first several years of
the production process ;-) My gripe is with the reluctance of many to
accept the validity of alternative stances, which cuts both ways. I find
the opinion that women are worthless unless they are working for hard cash
in the market economy as offensive as the barefoot and pregnant brigade.
Motherhood sounds like hell to many of us, but it is ridiculous to sneer
at women who prefer to do it responsibly full-time at least until school
age rather than getting a job in order to pay someone else to do it for
them!
I thus find myself in partial agreement with Naomi ;-) even though I think
she is wilfully overlooking the fact that many of us find public
breastfeeding nauseating to contemplate regardless of what is actually
visible. I was once in a bus in France when I noticed that a boy was
fondling a girl's chest under her T-shirt. I couldn't actually see contact
between them as it was behind the T-shirt and my noticing it was entirely
due to a knowledge of anatomy sufficient to deduce the position of the
hand from the position and angle of the arm; but I found it vulgar,
inappropriate and rude to other passengers all the same.
Stephie
Voris Tracy Van
Okay folks,
Given naomi's current little rant, I would like to share a story with you
all.
Several years ago, I worked in a university library. One day a woman came
into the library with two children in tow. One was about 3 or 4 and the
other was stroller bound.
Mommee went to a public area computer workstation and started to do some
research. The 3 year old was being fussy, loud, and generally annoying
other patrons while the other was comatose in the stroller.
Finally, the mommee grabbed the 3 year old, hiked up her shirt and shoved
her breast into his mouth and continued to work.
Not ONE of the Librarians said anything to this woman; they never told her
to take the kids out nor did they point out that breastfeeding a 3 year
old in a public area was inappropriate....since I was only a staff
assistant at the time, my objections to the Librarian on the floor was
greeted with a shushing - as if *I* was the one out of line!
Now, WHY was I so pissed off?
1) University libraries are not playgrounds. If she needed to keep
the kids, she should have gone to the public library just down the street.
That library had online services AND a play room for kiddies.
University libraries are for research and writing, not Romper Room.
2) The library has a NO FOOD/NO DRINK policy that is strictly enforced.
Food and drink is confiscated immediately. No exception. What were we to
do - take away the breeder's breasts, for goodness sake? She could have
gone into the restroom at *least* rather than distract everyone else
around her.
3) A nursing 3 year old?! C'mon, for crissakes! She already HAD a smaller
child at her side. Furthermore, the whole scene was quite vulgar, in my
opinion, as she was shoving the breast in the kid's face as a pacifier,
not as a means of nutrition.
To add insult to injury, when I was telling this story to another friend
later that day as we rode the bus home, a woman sitting near us *screamed*
(yes, literally) at me that I was EVIL and I should be ashamed of myself.
I said to her, "I am sorry. I've never met you before. Furthermore I
wasn't talking to you, and I really don't care what you think." She
huffed and got off the bus at the next stop.
To this day, I wonder if that really was her stop, or whether I so tore
her out of the frame for speaking my mind that she got confused and
couldn't stand sharing the bus with EVIL.
Comments?
T., in Atlanta
naomi pardue
Rabbit (rab...@hotstar.net) wrote:
> > > > <<What are the benefits of being CF for the rest of you?>>
> > > Well, last night is a good example. Got home from work about 7:45 pm. My
> > > SO wasn't home from his work yet. I didn't feel like cooking, I didn't
> > > feel like cleaning, I didn't feeling like doing much of anything. So I
> > > sat on the couch and ate ice cream (Nutty Chunky Chocolate.....my
> > > favorite!).
> > >
> >
> > Yup. Parents are allowed to sit on the couch and eat ice-cream. (Unless
> > they've made a rule that you can't eat in the living room.)
>
>
I did read the whole thing. Lets see ... last night, when I read the
thread, I had not made dinner. I'd come home with an upset stomach.
Husband had a bad headache. Neither of us felt like eating.
So yeah, I came home and sat down and relaxed
and did fun stuff. When child was hungry, I heated a can of soup (no more
work than dishing up a bowl of ice cream) and she made herself a peanut
butter sandwich. Everyone was happy, no-one starved or died of
malnutrition, and I didn't have to stand over a stove preparing an
elaborate meal that I wouldn't have eaten.
Contrary to general belief here, one is not required to slave over the
needs of a child every minute of every day.
Naomi
naomi pardue
Stephie Coane (slc...@ermine.ox.ac.uk) wrote:
>
> I thus find myself in partial agreement with Naomi ;-) even though I think
> she is wilfully overlooking the fact that many of us find public
> breastfeeding nauseating to contemplate regardless of what is actually
> visible. I was once in a bus in France when I noticed that a boy was
> fondling a girl's chest under her T-shirt. I couldn't actually see contact
> between them as it was behind the T-shirt and my noticing it was entirely
> due to a knowledge of anatomy sufficient to deduce the position of the
> hand from the position and angle of the arm; but I found it vulgar,
> inappropriate and rude to other passengers all the same.
As, indeed it was. Sexual contact in public is, in our culture,
unacceptable. Eating in public, is, in our culture, extremely acceptable.
Naomi
HCF
Karellen wrote:
>
> HCF<<When we all get together (my husband is also a professional and I am in
> school), I think her kids are her way to say "I may not be as educated as you
> all are, but I have kids so I have worth.">>
>
> One's "worth," IMO, comes from within. It does not come from being "a
> professional," "a student," or "a mother." If someone is a good person and has
> something to offer the world, "titles" shouldn't be important.
I agree 1000% that worth comes from within. Titles/degrees/etc. mean
nothing in the end.
However, my original point was that this woman derives some, if not all,
her worth from having kids because she feels insecure around the rest of
us due to the fact that we have more education than she does. I think
this is sad and wish she could derive her worth from other things such
as being a caring and kind person (which she is).
Education doesn't have to be the factor here. It could be anything.
When someone feels that they are lacking in something compared to the
people around them, they often derive their worth from something
superficial. The woman I mentioned uses having had kids for this.
HCF (who hopes she has made her point more clear with this post)
AGENTDBL07
As a person who is absolutely biased about the issue of breastfeeding in
public, I think the issue is readily apparent. What better way to receive
attention and evoke curiousity, smiles, and questions than to visibly
breastfeed where there are people? After all, when we want to do something
that we prefer to keep private - such as go to the bathroom - it is relatively
simple to find a place to do this, no matter where you might be (at least in
the U.S.) I think the suggestion that there are no private places to breastfeed
is nonsense. Some mothers, who already derive their satisfaction from the
increase in attention by virtue of having children, can be even more "visible"
by public breastfeeding and use it as a "social issue" as well. Pesonally the
idea of our legislators wasting time on trivialities such as this is the best
reason I can submit for a part-time legislature....
Christine
Linda Dachtyl
Another thread on this!! However I must comment...I must, I must..
Voris Tracy Van wrote:
>
> Okay folks,
>
> Given naomi's current little rant, I would like to share a story with you
> all.
Rants indeed. "Little"? (How 'bout never ending)
>
> Finally, the mommee grabbed the 3 year old, hiked up her shirt and shoved
> her breast into his mouth and continued to work.
I know this borders on the ridiculous. No class, whatsoever.
But at least she was giving the female college students something to
think about....use BC, abstain or this could be YOU!!Johnny Frat boy can
knock you up the first time...never forget it!
> Not ONE of the Librarians said anything to this woman; they never told her
> to take the kids out nor did they point out that breastfeeding a 3 year
> old in a public area was inappropriate....since I was only a staff
> assistant at the time, my objections to the Librarian on the floor was
> greeted with a shushing - as if *I* was the one out of line!
They probably were so flabbergasted they didn't know how to react. The
mental health state of a woman who would do this is questionable, too
and perhaps they were afraid of a loud violent reaction.
>
> 1) University libraries are not playgrounds.
Agreed!!!!!!
> 2) The library has a NO FOOD/NO DRINK policy that is strictly enforced.
> Food and drink is confiscated immediately. No exception. What were we to
> do - take away the breeder's breasts, for goodness sake?
You should have thrown cold water on her;-)!!I would have staged it as
"watering the plants" and conveniently tripped on a throw rug. "Ooops,
sorry!" NOT
> 3) A nursing 3 year old?! C'mon, for crissakes!
Yes, that is very sickening to witness, and strange to say the least.
> To add insult to injury, when I was telling this story to another friend
> later that day as we rode the bus home, a woman sitting near us *screamed*
> (yes, literally) at me that I was EVIL and I should be ashamed of myself.
Go directly to the police as I think you have probably found the Olympic
bomber and the one who bombed the women's health clinic in your city. If
not THE person certainly one of the brigade that could lead you to the
culprit.
> I said to her, "I am sorry. I've never met you before. Furthermore I
> wasn't talking to you, and I really don't care what you think."
Good for you, I might have added that her comments could be placed into
a part of her anatomy also.
> To this day, I wonder if that really was her stop, or whether I so tore
> her out of the frame for speaking my mind that she got confused and
> couldn't stand sharing the bus with EVIL.
Well either way, you were relieved of her presence.
Linda
organi...@hotmail.com
In article <34FDB7...@hotstar.net>,
Rabbit <rab...@hotstar.net> wrote:
> >
> I'm posting this because I suspect your address will bounce back at me.
> Is the Philadelphia Flower Show "worth" it? I'd be traveling about 11
> hours ...
>
> Rabbit
> (Organic gardener all the way)
>
Rabbit-
I personally thought it was a little better last year. Some of the
displays are truly amazing. About 1/2 the show is displays, the other
1/2 is vendors (some of which also has a display). It does get crowded,
weekdays are much better then weekends (also 2 dollars cheaper). OG had
a display, a french kitchen garden with compost site and a pond. If you
do go, go accross the street to Reading Terminal Market for lunch. It
is pretty cool. Lots of booths with different types of food (I had
felafal, something unheard of here in South Jersey).
11 hours is a long way, I don't know if I'd go that far. Don't you have
one closer? My email is for real, but I am gone after today until Monday.
Irene
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
organi...@hotmail.com
In article <19980305024...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
kare...@aol.com (Karellen) wrote:
> While I absolutely love puppies - even (especially?) the skunky puppy smell
- I
> prefer to adopt older dogs. I got the most recent one at age 5. Well past
the
> chew-and-destroy, tear up the wall to wall carpet stage! :)
>
> (And, they need homes a bit more desperately, too.)
>
Yea, the puppy is actually pretty good. We worked with him alot when we
got him and took him to training. We also crate trained him. The thing is,
he is a puppy and acts just like one (very crazy at times), but he is 63
pounds and gaining (mostly Great Dane). When something this size decides
to act like a playful pup, it can get ugly. His tail is bigger than some
people's puppies!! He is getting fixed today, so maybe he will be calm
tonite!
Trish Connery
naomi pardue wrote:
> Yup. Parents are allowed to sit on the couch and eat ice-cream.
> (Unless
> they've made a rule that you can't eat in the living room.)
For dinner?
--
Trish Connery
Los Angeles (Hollywood), CA
Julie RB
kare...@aol.com (Karellen) wrote:
Hi Karellen and everybody, if you know the childed well, ask them: Do
you regret having children? If they are close friends with you, they
won't mind the question.
Most of the PNB we know say that they would never have done it if they
had known what would be required of them.
All of the BNP we know are the ones who are gushing over little
AshleyJordan and shrieking to the high heavens that they can't believe
that ANYONE wouldn't want to have as many bayyyybeees as they could
humanly pop out!
JMHO, of course.
Julie
Julie at jul...@mindspring.com
"Earth is filled with Heaven" -- Elizabeth Barrett Browning
Voris Tracy Van
> Another thread on this!! However I must comment...I must, I must..
...and I thank you, Linda!
<snippage on my breastfeeding story stuff for brevity>
> > To add insult to injury, when I was telling this story to another friend
> > later that day as we rode the bus home, a woman sitting near us *screamed*
> > (yes, literally) at me that I was EVIL and I should be ashamed of myself.
>
> Go directly to the police as I think you have probably found the Olympic
> bomber and the one who bombed the women's health clinic in your city. If
> not THE person certainly one of the brigade that could lead you to the
> culprit.
Interesting tangent here, now that you mentioned the bombing...
I live less than a block away from the Otherside Lounge. I walk past it
almost daily. The night of that bombing was truly terrifying.
When the first bomb went off, my apartment building SHOOK. The windows
rattled and the electricity blinked on and off. The skies were soon
filled with helicopters and it was total chaos for several hours.
I was subjected to 3 interviews from various law enforcement detectives.
My neighborhood was effectively shut down for several days, and we lived
in the fishbowl of constant media attention. It was not fun.
....yeah, I have opinions about the people who think it's okay to bomb
clinics and other innocents BUT:
I got really, really tired of the constant harping about the children in
the OK bombing. Too many people died, and I agree with the sentiments of
an earlier poster who was fed up with the sentimentality that we have over
a child's death versus an adult's.
Oh, and one last word on the Atlanta bombings - my mother and I were
sitting in the exact "ground zero" area of the Olympic Park bombing the
afternoon before. We have picture of us right by that tower.
T. - never a dull moment
Larisa Migachyov
Karellen (kare...@aol.com) wrote:
: HCF<<When we all get together (my husband is also a professional and I am in
: all are, but I have kids so I have worth.">>
:
: One's "worth," IMO, comes from within. It does not come from being "a
: professional," "a student," or "a mother." If someone is a good person and has
: something to offer the world, "titles" shouldn't be important.
Yes, but one's worth is determined by one's talents that one can offer the
world. If one's talent is music, one should be a musician and derive a
sense of worth from being good at it. And if one's talent is at
parenthood - raising healthy, happy, well-adjusted kids - there is nothing
wrong with deriving a sense of worth from that as well. The problem is
when one bases one's entire self-worth on only one thing, be it parenthood
or artistic talent.
E l i s e
>I agree - though you can't always distinguish between one's worth "within"
>and what one does as it affects others. But if someone feels that what
>they have to offer the world is well-raised offspring (note qualification)
>I personally think that is a perfectly valid source of pride (for them),
A valid source of pride, perhaps. The best use of their talents,
perhaps not --- particularly with so many kids already here who are
suffering from a distinct lack of adult attention and guidance.
Society --- not just their parents --- pays the cost of the later
behavior of these kids.
If more people took time to do a little volunteer work with kids to
see if they're even marginally cut out for parenthood, there'd be a
much higher proportion of parents out there and a much lower
proportion of breeders. It might stop the folks who just have kids
mindlessly or to further their DNA, and fail to deter only those who
want to have kids because they enjoy *raising* them and will do so
responsibly. Furthermore, if fewer children were born as a result,
that would be more than "gravy", from my POV.
I find
>the opinion that women are worthless unless they are working for hard cash
>in the market economy as offensive as the barefoot and pregnant brigade.
I *almost* agree there. However, once a woman has the education
necessary to work for hard cash and to make a real living, she can
always (if the economics allow her) choose to go back to being a
housewife. Many in the barefoot and pregnant brigade don't approve of
advanced book-learnin', least of all for wimmin, and once you've
failed to finish high school on time (for instance), it's awfully hard
to go back and get that GED and/or college degree once you're "B., P.,
and I. the K".
So again, as evil as going to either extreme might be, I have a hard
time believing that a woman who is capable of earning her own keep
(and who experiences some peer pressure from her yupped-out friends to
stay that way) is as badly off as one who is trapped in a domestic
baby-factory life.
>Motherhood sounds like hell to many of us, but it is ridiculous to sneer
>at women who prefer to do it responsibly full-time at least until school
>age rather than getting a job in order to pay someone else to do it for
>them!
>
Agreed --- as long as "responsibly" is the key word.
>I thus find myself in partial agreement with Naomi ;-) even though I think
>she is wilfully overlooking the fact that many of us find public
>breastfeeding nauseating to contemplate regardless of what is actually
>visible. I was once in a bus in France when I noticed that a boy was
>fondling a girl's chest under her T-shirt. I couldn't actually see contact
>between them as it was behind the T-shirt and my noticing it was entirely
>due to a knowledge of anatomy sufficient to deduce the position of the
>hand from the position and angle of the arm; but I found it vulgar,
>inappropriate and rude to other passengers all the same.
Nice analogy, Stephie. Again, because Naomi doesn't find it
offputting and none of her legion of CF friends does either, we aren't
permitted to discuss the varying degrees of disgust that breastfeeding
elicits in us (at least not in peace).
Elise
Steve/Beth George
Gutterboy1 <gutte...@aol.com> wrote:
: In one of my irregular perusals of misc.kids, I noticed there's a lively thread
: over there: "What do you miss from the days BK?" (That's Before Kids.)
: Nearly every single poster concludes with "...but I wouldn't trade my life now
: for anything!" but the sheer number of responses, I believe, tell a different
: story. (After all, we don't sit around here talking about the things we miss
: about NOT having kids!)
But you don't know, and don't WANT to know, what it's really like. Ain't
nuthin' wrong with that, but the sprogged have experienced both sides, so
they know what they're missing, as well as what they've got.
Wouldn't you rather the parents wanted their kids more than whatever they
missed, and said so? Why do you think that the "I wouldn't trade..."
MUST be false?
There's also a "What wouldn't you give up? thread" Now, most diehard CFs
place no value on baby smiles, coos, etc, but it's a GOOD thing that there
are PNB's who would rather have the joy of teaching a kid to walk than the
joy of going to a movie on the spur of the moment.
--Beth
Who has no CLUE why so many BNP's give away their animals, can't shower
alone, can't urinate alone, can't keep kids from barging into their
room, etc.
Rabbit
Lots of booths with different types of food (I had
> felafal, something unheard of here in South Jersey).
>
> 11 hours is a long way, I don't know if I'd go that far. Don't you have
> one closer? My email is for real, but I am gone after today until Monday.
>
> Irene
>
Yes, we have two flower shows coming up within an hour's drive (I'm
avoiding one because of the crowds). It's just that from reading about
it, it seems that the Philadelphia show appears to be the World's Fair
of flower shows. I would definitely drive that far for one that
spectacular, but somehow I have a feeling it'll just be a slighter
grander version of the Toronto show.
Rabbit
Rabbit
> Oh, and one last word on the Atlanta bombings - my mother and I were
> sitting in the exact "ground zero" area of the Olympic Park bombing the
> afternoon before. We have picture of us right by that tower.
>
> T. - never a dull moment
Isn't that a strange feeling? I was in Los Angeles many years ago when
the Olympics were there. (Not FOR the Olympics -- I have absolutely no
use for any portion of any Olympics, and twice have been close enough to
reach out and grab the goddamn torch ...)
I don't remember if it was directly related to the Olympics or not, but
someone got in their car and ran up on the sidewalk in downtown LA on a
busy street, knocking people over like bowling pins. Several were
killed. I was walking right at that intersection, on that sidewalk, not
an hour before ...
Rabbit
Jim
Lara,
Actually, you really don't have to replace the tires until you can see
the air inside of the tire on the outside.
Jim
Lara wrote:
>
> -- LW, who had to put a new tire on the Festiva because -- now I don't know
> much about cars, but I'm pretty sure when you can see the metal INSIDE the
> tire on the OUTSIDE, it's time to replace the tire!
Jim
organi...@hotmail.com wrote:
> I'm a first time poster - Hello to everyone! Went to the flower show
> in Philly yesterday and got hit by a couple of strollers. Those infants
> must of really enjoyed the experience. They should charge them double, at
> least!
>
> Irene
> South NJ
Hi Irene, and welcome. I'm over by LBI. It's nice to see that there is
another person in South Jersey who hasn't gone sprogcentric. I agree
that those beastie mobiles are evil, especially the side by side ones.
Sit back, pop a cold one, and the welcome wagon should be by any second
now.
Jim -
Vera Izrailit
In alt.support.childfree Karellen <kare...@aol.com> wrote:
: Trish (re vegging on the couch and eating ice cream for dinner)<<Do you think
: I'd be able to do this if I had spawn to care for? HA!>>
: You probably shouldn't, but I've personally known parents who do *exactly*
: that. Scary, huh. :(
What's so scary about that?
It's natural that this newsgroup tends to overestimate the burdens of
parenthood (after all, almost all of us here don't want to be parents),
but there is still a noticeable double standard in the way in which
people here on one hand complain that all that parents and breeders
care about is their sprogs, and on the other hand say that all that
parents and breeders *should* care about is their sprogs.
A sprog is a member of the family, and as such should be cared about
and have its concerns addressed, but there is no reason sprog should
always be first. If the parents always put the sprogs' concerns in
front of their own, the result is usually something that is usually
described here in threads named "spoiled rugrat" or something like that.
Babies are supposed to be fed pretty often, but a toddler can wait
while mom relaxes after work and eats her ice cream, and a school-age
sprog should be able to make its own dinner.
--
Vera Izrailit
Intestinal parasites known as senders of unsolicited commercial email will
have their genitals removed by a rusty kitchen knife without anaesthesia,
be painfully sodomized by a herd of elephants and then slowly tortured to
death. Unlikely survivors will be promptly caught and fed to the lawyers.
Pete
In article <34ff436c...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, z...@jack.com (Zipjack) wrote:
> Pete, this is usenet.
> Naomi has as much right to post her views as you have to killfile her
> posts. I personally find her to be moderate and reasonable thusfar.
> Save your hate for something more dramatically unethical than
> someone stating personal opinions on usenet.
>
> Kate
Who the fuck are you and where do you get off lecturing me? I flame
breeders here. It's the one place I can do it and get away with it. People
here know that. They know I flame breeders. You no likee, DON'T READ IT. I
am not going to stop. Naomi deserves everything she gets. SHe brings it on
herself. Clearly it's *you* I'll have to killfile. She's already there but
sometimes I come across a quote that just *demands* a response.
Where is it written that my opinion, however I choose to express it, is
any less valid in the world of usenet that that idiot breeder Naomi?
*PLONK!!!
Go have a baby...pete
--
Surely you"re *smart* enough to remove the spam control...
Chris Petit
>On Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:17:22 +0000, Stephie Coane
><slc...@ermine.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>>I agree - though you can't always distinguish between one's worth "within"
>>and what one does as it affects others. But if someone feels that what
>>they have to offer the world is well-raised offspring (note qualification)
>>I personally think that is a perfectly valid source of pride (for them),
>
>A valid source of pride, perhaps. The best use of their talents,
>perhaps not --- particularly with so many kids already here who are
>suffering from a distinct lack of adult attention and guidance.
>Society --- not just their parents --- pays the cost of the later
>behavior of these kids.
>
>If more people took time to do a little volunteer work with kids to
>see if they're even marginally cut out for parenthood, there'd be a
>much higher proportion of parents out there and a much lower
>proportion of breeders. It might stop the folks who just have kids
>mindlessly or to further their DNA, and fail to deter only those who
>want to have kids because they enjoy *raising* them and will do so
>responsibly. Furthermore, if fewer children were born as a result,
>that would be more than "gravy", from my POV.
I wonder what the effect would be, if would be parents who
wanted to receive the tax credit for children had to do volunteer work
with children for a period of not less than one month?
Of course, the best solution would be too explicitly restrict
the amount children people could have. But that is a real political
can of worms.
Also, too many people use "it's in our genes" as an excuse to
justify why they should go out and have kids when they can't afford
them, take good care of them, or haven't thought it through.
Then again, that is why we have so many breeders.
On Thu, 05 Mar 1998 20:33:39 GMT, ely...@nospamthanks.tiac.net (E l i
s e ) wrote:
>If more people took time to do a little volunteer work with kids to
>see if they're even marginally cut out for parenthood, there'd be a
>much higher proportion of parents out there and a much lower
>proportion of breeders. It might stop the folks who just have kids
>mindlessly or to further their DNA, and fail to deter only those who
>want to have kids because they enjoy *raising* them and will do so
>responsibly. Furthermore, if fewer children were born as a result,
>that would be more than "gravy", from my POV.
I wonder what the effect would be, if would be parents who
wanted to receive the tax credit for children had to do volunteer work
with children for a period of not less than one month?
Of course, the best solution would be too explicitly restrict
the amount children people could have. But that is a real political
can of worms.
Also, too many people use "it's in our genes" as an excuse to
justify why they should go out and have kids when they can't afford
them, take good care of them, or haven't thought it through.
Then again, that is why we have so many breeders.
----
"Don't take life too seriously---after all, you'll never
get out alive"
Reply to bluemist at mindspring dot com --- nothing else
Julie K. Stahlhut
In a previous article, ibil...@cris.com (Ilene Bilenky) says:
>Hi, Irene, and welcome!
>Ilene formerly from Cherry Hill (and must admit to hating every inch of
>the place)
>
>> In article <6djr3o$7su$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, organi...@hotmail.com
>writes:
>>
>> > I'm a first time poster - Hello to everyone! Went to the flower show
>> > in Philly yesterday and got hit by a couple of strollers. Those infants
>> > must of really enjoyed the experience. They should charge them double, at
>> > least!
>> >
>> > Irene
>> > South NJ
>
Welcome, Irene!
Y'know, I've never understood why people are so cavalier about their
kids either running or wheeling around among other people's ankles.
I once fell over a toddler who ran smack into me while I was standing
in line at the registry of motor vehicles. I recall being stared at
by onlookers who obviously couldn't understand why I wasn't apologizing
to the kid's horrified mom. Damn good thing I was a healthy thirty-
something at the time, and not an older person with orthopedic problems.
And, of course, if it had been in a situation where the kiddo could have
been really injured instead of merely scared (she toppled onto a nice
soft carpet), I would have been the one who got the brunt of onlooker
abuse.
--
Julie K. Stahlhut, Portable Curmudgeoness julie.s...@wmich.edu
Real Butterflies Don't Kiss!
-- Entomologists Against Wimp-Rock
E l i s e
On 5 Mar 1998 20:45:19 GMT, Steve/Beth George
<aqua...@shell1.ncal.verio.com> wrote:
>But you don't know, and don't WANT to know, what it's really like. Ain't
>nuthin' wrong with that, but the sprogged have experienced both sides,
Well, sort of, Beth. They've experienced childLESSness and having
kids. Most of them, I'd wager, have not experienced being childFREE
and then gone on to have kids. It's an important distinction.
>There's also a "What wouldn't you give up? thread" Now, most diehard CFs
>place no value on baby smiles, coos, etc, but it's a GOOD thing that there
>are PNB's who would rather have the joy of teaching a kid to walk than the
>joy of going to a movie on the spur of the moment.
Good point. Again, I don't think too many of us have an argument with
PNBs, as long as they don't make a.s.cf one of their principal
hang-outs. Thanks for your restraint, Beth...really.
Elise
E l i s e
On Thu, 05 Mar 1998 14:10:38 -0600, organi...@hotmail.com wrote:
When something this size decides
>to act like a playful pup, it can get ugly.
Irene,
I know whereof you speak. When my 100-lb. Lab Tucker is "jazzed", he
jumpes all over the room, particularly when he seems me putting on my
shoes (a sure sign that I'll be going outside, and he hopes to join
me). I've learned to either shut him out of the room when "applying
shoes to feet" or to stand up to lace them: a few times, while
sitting on the bed and bending over to lace my shoes, he WHOMPED his
skull into my jaw. It's a damn good thing I didn't have my tongue
between my teeth, or it could have ended my flute career for good.
He's starting to calm down a bit now (he's almost 6). But don't
expect your Dane to really start to listen to you until age 2 ---
that's a bit of a milestone in "puppy development". (That's not to
say you shouldn't discipline him --- it's just that it's harder to get
their attention until that point).
Elise
(who housesat at a house with a Great Dane named Danska once. She
removed an entire roast chicken from the counter without having to
even jump up to do so, and had dispatched half of it before we were
able to wrest it from her grasp...). I really enjoyed taking care of
her, since I liked ponies so much at that age!
Zipjack
On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 09:23:59 -0800, justpete.n...@a.crl.com
(Pete) wrote:
>> naomi pardue wrote:
>
>> > It wasn't so long ago that the general consensus on the group was that
>> > parents were welcome, as long as they didn't criticize the CF choice.
>> > I don't criticize the CF choice. When the converstaion moves off topic
>> > (to NON-CF related topics, such as discussing the 'true' feelings of
>> > parents, or criticizing people who WANT to have children, or WANT to
>> > breastfeed) I may put in a word. How is my word less appropriate than
>> > the word of a CF person in such a situation?
>> >
>> > Naomi
>
Pete wrote:
>I can only speak for myself (but I know I have allies here) but AFAIC
>breeders (and *you* are in the dictionary as such I assure you) are *not*
>welcome here by me and I will continue to make life as hard for *you* as I
>can when I'm here. Your devil's advocacy and pro-natalism make me and
>others want to PUKE and If i knew a way to blow up your computer through a
>server, I would certainly do so.
>
>Not only is your *word* not appropriate here, your *presence* is not
>appropriate.