Are there altermatives to meds?
Ric Logg
scheduled him to be tested.
Question - Are there alternatives to medications ?
Question - Can anybody point me towards an authoritative book written by a
well-respected individual that will give me some factual information about
ADD ?
Thank you
John Palmer
wrote:
>My wife and I suspect that our child may be suffering from ADD - and have
>scheduled him to be tested.
>
>
>Question - Are there alternatives to medications ?
Yes. However, consider that there might be alternatives to
immobilization for a broken bone... but unless the break is mild, or
you have other good circumstances, immobilization is your best shot.
With teaching of good organization habits, with extremely solid,
consistent discipline that allows leeway for things an ADHD youth
can't help (e.g.: some parents think that you can punish a "bad
attitude" or that a single outburst, kept under control, should be
punished. Both of those would likely cause problems with ADD
children, from what I've seen). Breaking tasks down, and helping the
child to learn to do so can help. And, of course, everything must be
consistent. It's very hard to learn a habit if you have ADHD... it
gets harder if you have to learn five or six different ones.
Keep in mind that ADD causes me to go into terribly fatigued
states that are torture to live though. All the good habits in the
world are unlikely to have changed this. In that sort of
circumstance, when ADD causes a great deal of unavoidable suffering,
the only alternative to meds is "letting your child suffer
needlessly".
?
--
Everything I needed to know in life I learned in Kindergarten. Like:
If it's from Acme, and the words "rocket powered" or "explosive" are on
the package, walk, don't run, away quickly, and don't bother the nice
birdie on your way out.
J. Clarke
Driven to Distraction, by Hallowell and Ratey, is generally considered
to be a good starting point for learning about ADHD.
There are techniques that work well when used in conjunction with
medications and poorly when used alone. If there is a true alternative,
that provides the same benefits in the same degree, it has not yet been
discovered.
--
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(used to be jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe
>
> My wife and I suspect that our child may be suffering from ADD - and have
> scheduled him to be tested.
>
> Question - Are there alternatives to medications ?
>
First off, meds or no meds, you *have* to implement behavioral,
organizational, impulse control, and other techniques. That is a
*MUST*.
Did I happen to mention that nothing else works if you don't implement
behavioral, organizational, impulse control, and other techniques?
Did I mention that it's very, very, VERY important?
OK, enough of that.
There are a few alternatives to meds that we tried. There are herbal
therapies, but remember, herbal therapies are *still* meds, just a
different form of meds, one not being monitored by your physician if
you're using them. We tried an herbal tincture blend called "Kidalin"
that gave a small amount of improvement.
There are also dietary alternatives. But one must keep in mind that
dietary interventions only work for 3-5% of people with ADHD. We tried
a gluten-free diet with minimal success. However, when weighing the
time and money input against the small improvement, it was not enough of
a success.
> Question - Can anybody point me towards an authoritative book written by a
> well-respected individual that will give me some factual information about
> ADD ?
I'll leave the list of books up to those with more books than I have on
this subject. If you want URLs, though... <g>
--
Kitten
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
I'm a bitch, I'm a lover; I'm a child, I'm a mother
I'm a sinner, I'm a saint; I do not feel ashamed
I'm your hell, I'm you dream; I'm nothing in between
You know you wouldn't want it any other way
-
- - Meredith Brooks
Cher
Ric Logg <stu...@nwlink.com> wrote in message
news:3b54ce42$1...@news.nwlink.com...
Yes, there are alternatives to medications....and while "alternatives" is
not the most popular issue in this group, it is a legitimate one. My son
(who is now an adult) used medication for several years when he was younger.
We tried several different ones, different dosages, different times of day,
etc.etc. .... and unfortunately they had little (if any) effect on him. We
heard about a clinic called The Carl Pfieffer Treatment Center, you can
learn more about the work they do at.. http://www.hriptc.org/ . These
doctors help children and adults with various bio-chemical, neurological
disorders using nutritional supplements. Our son responded wonderfully to
the Pfeiffer proram. Eventually we started using other supplements which
seemed to work equally as well.
Today, my son is doing quite well. He has taken nutritional
supplements for over four years with no problems and will probably take them
for the rest of his life..
Hope this has helped.....
Cheryl
\o/
Glory To God!
GOtterBMe
Pfeiffer program.
One of the newsmagazines did an expose' on them several times.
They sent the exact same hair sample under different names and got widely
varying recommendations.
They sent in DOG hair and got back recommendations for a human.
I am very glad if it has helped someone here and I am not telling them what to
do. I am urging extreme caution for anyone else.
And, I'm not opposed to all alternatives. I take some myself. I AM opposed to
Pfeiffer.
Cher
GOtterBMe <gott...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010718104250...@ng-cn1.aol.com...
This has been brought up in here before....Could someone give me more
information? I would be curious to know which "newsmagazine did the expose'
on them. I'd really like to look into it more...especially that about the
DOG hair....how strange? Apparently someone made a very big error....Did
Pfeifferr Clinic attempt any type of explanation?
In all fairness though....let's consider the mistakes that have been
made and reported in other areas of medicine also..............
GOtterBMe
From: "Cher" <A HREF="mailto:crge...@i-55.com">crge...@i-55.com</A>
Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 12:06 PM
Message-id: <9j4frf$fav$1...@news.datasync.com>
GOtterBMe <gott...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010718104250...@ng-cn1.aol.com...
> I am going to say, one more time, that people need to be very careful
about the
> Pfeiffer program.
>
> One of the newsmagazines did an expose' on them several times.
>
> They sent the exact same hair sample under different names and got widely
> varying recommendations.
>
> They sent in DOG hair and got back recommendations for a human.
>
> I am very glad if it has helped someone here and I am not telling them
what to
> do. I am urging extreme caution for anyone else.
>
> And, I'm not opposed to all alternatives. I take some myself. I AM opposed
to
> Pfeiffer.
>
>
This has been brought up in here before....Could someone give me more
information? "
I'm sorry; I don't recall. But I bet all it would take would be sending email
to the three major networks. It was one of them.
Cher
GOtterBMe <gott...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010718152537...@ng-ca1.aol.com...
I suppose I could try that, but I honestly had no idea that ABC, NBC or CBS
would answer private e-mail? I guess it's worth a shot though..... I might
email Pfeiffer Treatment center as well....I support their "Free" programs
for the economically disadvantaged (when we're not too "economically
disadvantaged)...maybe they'll remember and give me the information I'm
wanting.
Chris Leithiser
> I suppose I could try that, but I honestly had no idea that ABC, NBC or CBS
> would answer private e-mail? I guess it's worth a shot though..... I might
> email Pfeiffer Treatment center as well....I support their "Free" programs
> for the economically disadvantaged (when we're not too "economically
> disadvantaged)...maybe they'll remember and give me the information I'm
> wanting.
Well, here's a JAMA citation:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?db=m&form=6&dopt=r&uid=4021042
Commercial hair analysis. Science or scam?
Barrett S.
Hair samples from two healthy teenagers were sent under assumed names to
13 commercial laboratories performing multimineral hair analysis. The
reported levels of most minerals varied considerably between identical
samples sent to the same laboratory and from laboratory to laboratory.
Chris Leithiser
The Poodle Story:
Dateline, NBC, 29 Sept 1998
http://www.mindspring.com/~anson/randi-hotline/1998/0030.html
Cher
Chris Leithiser <clei...@bc.cc.ca.us> wrote in message
news:3B560204...@bc.cc.ca.us...
Thanks for the information....yet I see no mention of the Pfeiffer Clinic?
Also, I'm almost positive that *Smith-Kline-Beechem Labs....are who
performed the actual analysis of our sons hair....I never heard of sending
the hair through the mail? Pfeiffer clinic took his hair sample and as I
remember were very specific about where the hair should be taken from and
how close to the scalp the sample should or shouldn't (?) be.......It wasn't
just "snipping off" some hair....not at all. I've emailed the clinic and
hopefully will get some sort of a response....we'll see.
Again, I appreciate the information.
Cheryl
Cheryl
GOtterBMe
"I suppose I could try that, but I honestly had no idea that ABC, NBC or CBS
would answer private e-mail?"
They have for me.
Joe Parsons
wrote:
>he Poodle Story:
>
>Dateline, NBC, 29 Sept 1998
>
>http://www.mindspring.com/~anson/randi-hotline/1998/0030.html
Man! You're GOOD, Chris!
Joe Parsons
----------------------------------------------------------------
Streaming Multimedia production and delivery--served with a SMILe
http://www.yankeemedia.net
Mark Probert
<clei...@bc.cc.ca.us> wrote:
While Randi criticizes the use of poodle hair, it is very instructive
that none of the labs caught on. Even a cursory microscopic analysis
would have shown that the hair was poodle hair.
Also, since the labs came back with differenent diagnoses for the same
hair, it was a valid double blind experiment.
The punchline was that it was dog hair.
Mark Probert
wrote:
>On Wed, 18 Jul 2001 14:39:16 -0700, Chris Leithiser <clei...@bc.cc.ca.us>
>wrote:
>
>>he Poodle Story:
>>
>>Dateline, NBC, 29 Sept 1998
>>
>>http://www.mindspring.com/~anson/randi-hotline/1998/0030.html
>
>Man! You're GOOD, Chris!
I saw the show. Nearly died laughing.
Mark Probert
Randi, in the poodle story, commends Stephen Barrett, M.D. and his
comments vis-a-vis hair analysis. Barrett is the head of
www.quackwatch.com. Here's what the site says:
Beware of Unqualified Individuals
Because the titles "nutritionist" and "nutrition consultant" are
unregulated in most states, they have been adopted by many individuals
who lack recognized credentials and are unqualified. In addition, a
small percentage of licensed practitioners are engaged in unscientific
nutrition practices. The best way to avoid bad nutrition advice is to
identify and avoid those who give it. I recommend steering clear of:
(...)
Anyone who suggests hair analysis as a basis for determining the
body's nutritional state or for recommending vitamins and minerals.
Hair analysis is not reliable for this purpose.
(...)
Visit the webpage and do a search on hair analysis.
GOtterBMe
"><A
HREF="http://www.mindspring.com/~anson/randi-hotline/1998/0030.html">http:
//www.mindspring.com/~anson/randi-hotline/1998/0030.html</A>
While Randi criticizes the use of poodle hair, it is very instructive
that none of the labs caught on. Even a cursory microscopic analysis
would have shown that the hair was poodle hair.
Also, since the labs came back with differenent diagnoses for the same
hair, it was a valid double blind experiment.
The punchline was that it was dog hair."
I completely agree. In addition, I thought it was a little silly to demand or
expect rigorous research from a news show.
Cher
GOtterBMe <gott...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010719001739...@ng-ct1.aol.com...
> Mark Probert said:
>
> "><A
> HREF="http://www.mindspring.com/~anson/randi-hotline/1998/0030.html">http:
> file://www.mindspring.com/~anson/randi-hotline/1998/0030.html</A>
>
> While Randi criticizes the use of poodle hair, it is very instructive
> that none of the labs caught on. Even a cursory microscopic analysis
> would have shown that the hair was poodle hair.
>
> Also, since the labs came back with differenent diagnoses for the same
> hair, it was a valid double blind experiment.
>
> The punchline was that it was dog hair."
>
>
>
> I completely agree. In addition, I thought it was a little silly to demand
or
> expect rigorous research from a news show.
>
Gotter...just so I know I haven't misunderstood you....you did say that The
Carl Pfeiffer Treatment Center was named as one of the clinics which
analyzed dog hair and sent back human recommendations?
Cheryl
Mark Probert
Cheryl, visit www.quackwatch.com and search on hair analysis. If you
read everything, you will see that hair analysis is definitionally
quackery. If Pfeiffer promotes it, then they are guilty of quackery.
Mitch S
> scheduled him to be tested.
>
>
> Question - Are there alternatives to medications ?
>
>
> Question - Can anybody point me towards an authoritative book written by a
> well-respected individual that will give me some factual information about
> ADD ?
>
Very well written, is not overly pedantic and discusses alternatives to
meds. The book is an excellent source of tried and well documented
non-medicinal based therapy for ADD / ADHD and other imbalances.
Anna Wise also has a good book "High Performance Mind" (ISBN: 0874778504).
She is not as authoritative on ADD / ADHD, but her approach is very
applicable. I suggest reading Robbins first.
Good luck whichever way you go!
>
>
>
>
> Thank you
>
>
GOtterBMe
(Mark Probert)
Date: Thu, Jul 19, 2001 6:46 AM
Message-id: <3b56c83f....@news.cis.dfn.de>
On Thu, 19 Jul 2001 06:14:19 -0500, "Cher" <crge...@i-55.com> wrote:
>
>
>GOtterBMe <gott...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:20010719001739...@ng-ct1.aol.com...
>> Mark Probert said:
>>
>> "><A
>> HREF="http://www.mindspring.com/~anson/randi-hotline/1998/0030.html">http:
>> file://www.mindspring.com/~anson/randi-hotline/1998/0030.html
>>
>> While Randi criticizes the use of poodle hair, it is very instructive
>> that none of the labs caught on. Even a cursory microscopic analysis
>> would have shown that the hair was poodle hair.
>>
>> Also, since the labs came back with differenent diagnoses for the same
>> hair, it was a valid double blind experiment.
>>
>> The punchline was that it was dog hair."
>>
>>
>>
>> I completely agree. In addition, I thought it was a little silly to demand
>or
>> expect rigorous research from a news show.
>>
>Gotter...just so I know I haven't misunderstood you....you did say that The
>Carl Pfeiffer Treatment Center was named as one of the clinics which
>analyzed dog hair and sent back human recommendations?
Cheryl, visit www.quackwatch.com and search on hair analysis. If you
read everything, you will see that hair analysis is definitionally
quackery. If Pfeiffer promotes it, then they are guilty of quackery."
Thank you. I was just saying that when the electricity went out...
OY ... I kept thinking "I KNOW I paid the bill!" Then the power came back on.
Went outside and there was a note on the door. The electric company added
something to the meter so they can read it remotely, and they had to turn the
power off briefly to accomplish that. BAH!
Mark Probert
wrote:
>
>"Ric Logg" <stu...@nwlink.com> wrote in message
>news:3b54ce42$1...@news.nwlink.com...
>> My wife and I suspect that our child may be suffering from ADD - and have
>> scheduled him to be tested.
>>
>>
>> Question - Are there alternatives to medications ?
>>
>Yes, but you won't get much support from this group in that direction.
Wrong, clueless one. This group will point anyone in the direction of
any and all treatment that has been shown to be safe and effective.
>> Question - Can anybody point me towards an authoritative book written by a
>> well-respected individual that will give me some factual information about
>> ADD ?
>>
>A good starter is "Symphony In The Brain" by Jim Robbins (ISBN 087113807).
>Very well written, is not overly pedantic and discusses alternatives to
>meds. The book is an excellent source of tried and well documented
>non-medicinal based therapy for ADD / ADHD and other imbalances.
ADD is not an imbalance.
J. Clarke
says...
> On Thu, 19 Jul 2001 16:16:46 GMT, "Mitch S" <mit...@aztec.asu.edu>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Ric Logg" <stu...@nwlink.com> wrote in message
> >news:3b54ce42$1...@news.nwlink.com...
> >> My wife and I suspect that our child may be suffering from ADD - and have
> >> scheduled him to be tested.
> >>
> >>
> >> Question - Are there alternatives to medications ?
> >>
> >Yes, but you won't get much support from this group in that direction.
>
> Wrong, clueless one. This group will point anyone in the direction of
> any and all treatment that has been shown to be safe and effective.
>
> >> Question - Can anybody point me towards an authoritative book written by a
> >> well-respected individual that will give me some factual information about
> >> ADD ?
> >>
> >A good starter is "Symphony In The Brain" by Jim Robbins (ISBN 087113807).
> >Very well written, is not overly pedantic and discusses alternatives to
> >meds. The book is an excellent source of tried and well documented
> >non-medicinal based therapy for ADD / ADHD and other imbalances.
>
> ADD is not an imbalance.
Furthermore, if it _was_ an imbalance, then I don't see any point in
trying to treat an imbalance with anything other than medications which
will restore the balance.
Can you say "inconsistent"? How about "self-contradictory"?
>
> >Anna Wise also has a good book "High Performance Mind" (ISBN: 0874778504).
> >She is not as authoritative on ADD / ADHD, but her approach is very
> >applicable. I suggest reading Robbins first.
>
> >Good luck whichever way you go!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Thank you
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
--
Mark Probert
I can say those things, but can Mitch? Somehow, I doubt it.
Cher
Hello....I asked this once already, it's either been overlooked or
ignored...but I'll try one more time.......
> Jjust so I know I haven't misunderstood....you did say that The
> Carl Pfeiffer Treatment Center was named as one of the clinics which
> analyzed dog hair and sent back human recommendations? Right?
> Cheryl
Cher <crge...@i-55.com> wrote in message
news:9j6fjj$1b6$1...@news.datasync.com...
GOtterBMe
Message-id: <9ja671$lsv$1...@news.datasync.com>
Hello....I asked this once already, it's either been overlooked or
ignored...but I'll try one more time......."
It was neither overlooked nor ignored.
In fact, it was answered.
The answer was that my recollection was that yes, it mentioned Pfeiffer and
sent hair samples to them, including a dog. That was my first post, and it's
still what I'm saying. So I don't understand how there could be *any* doubt
about what I said.
Now -- the obvious question is "Do I remember it correctly?"
My belief is that I do. The results I reported from the TV show have been
substantiated in research. That is good enough *for me,* but it may not be good
enough for you.
I do know that it was either ABC, NBC or CBS, and I do know that in the past
they have been courteous in answering questions about previous broadcasts.
So if you choose to confirm what I said, you're more than welcome to do so.
Gee I hope this gets through this time. :)
Mark Probert
>
>Hello....I asked this once already, it's either been overlooked or
>ignored...but I'll try one more time.......
I pointed you to www.quackwatch.com and suggested that you search on
hair analysis. Have you? Have you read the articles?
Cher
GOtterBMe <gott...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010720173458...@ng-fw1.aol.com...
> "Subject: Re: Are there altermatives to meds?
> From: "Cher" <A HREF="mailto:crge...@i-55.com">crge...@i-55.com</A>
> Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 3:58 PM
> Message-id: <9ja671$lsv$1...@news.datasync.com>
>
>
> Hello....I asked this once already, it's either been overlooked or
> ignored...but I'll try one more time......."
>
>
>
> It was neither overlooked nor ignored.
>
> In fact, it was answered.
Never saw it until now...........
>
> The answer was that my recollection was that yes, it mentioned Pfeiffer
and
> sent hair samples to them, including a dog. That was my first post, and
it's
> still what I'm saying. So I don't understand how there could be *any*
doubt
> about what I said.
Gotter....I wanted to clarify because it just didn't make sense to me.
Pfeiffer Treatment Center didn't perform the hair analysis on my son...They
did take the sample, but it was sent to an independent laboratory for the
analysis.....and the results were then sent to me.
>
> Now -- the obvious question is "Do I remember it correctly?"
>
> My belief is that I do. The results I reported from the TV show have been
> substantiated in research.
You mean it was shown that Pfeiffer Treatment Center was one of the
participants in all this? I mean if it was reported....well than it
happened I suppose....But I'm telling you they don't even do their own hair
analysis's....it's done by an independent lab. They send the lab work off
just like any other clinic would do. Or at least they did when our son was
under their care.
That is good enough *for me,* but it may not be good
> enough for you.
It would be good enough if I could find a "report" that shows thePfeiffer
Treatment Center was involved.....I haven't..but I am still looking
around.'..
>
> I do know that it was either ABC, NBC or CBS, and I do know that in the
past
> they have been courteous in answering questions about previous broadcasts.
>
> So if you choose to confirm what I said, you're more than welcome to do
so.
>
> Gee I hope this gets through this time. :)
Yep, I see it now....thank-you.
Cheryl
george_of_the_jungle
<kit...@whitepine.com> wrote:
>Ric Logg wrote:
>>
>> My wife and I suspect that our child may be suffering from ADD - and have
>> scheduled him to be tested.
>>
>> Question - Are there alternatives to medications ?
>>
>
>
>First off, meds or no meds, you *have* to implement behavioral,
>organizational, impulse control, and other techniques. That is a
>*MUST*.
>
>Did I happen to mention that nothing else works if you don't implement
>behavioral, organizational, impulse control, and other techniques?
>
>Did I mention that it's very, very, VERY important?
>
>OK, enough of that.
>
>There are a few alternatives to meds that we tried. There are herbal
>therapies, but remember, herbal therapies are *still* meds, just a
>different form of meds, one not being monitored by your physician if
>you're using them. We tried an herbal tincture blend called "Kidalin"
>that gave a small amount of improvement.
>
>There are also dietary alternatives. But one must keep in mind that
>dietary interventions only work for 3-5% of people with ADHD. We tried
>a gluten-free diet with minimal success. However, when weighing the
>time and money input against the small improvement, it was not enough of
>a success.
>
>
>> Question - Can anybody point me towards an authoritative book written by a
>> well-respected individual that will give me some factual information about
>> ADD ?
>
>
>I'll leave the list of books up to those with more books than I have on
>this subject. If you want URLs, though... <g>
>
>--
>Kitten
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>I'm a bitch, I'm a lover; I'm a child, I'm a mother
>I'm a sinner, I'm a saint; I do not feel ashamed
>I'm your hell, I'm you dream; I'm nothing in between
>You know you wouldn't want it any other way
> -
>- - Meredith Brooks
Kitten came to the group very skeptical of meds. She is telling it
the way it is. Of course there are alternatives, but they ain't
easy. Martial arts and hard core excercise helps with discipline and
focus, but they don't make the BS go away. There's no easy answer.
-George
nknisley
I think the fact that the Pfeiffer Treatment Center sends hair out to a
lab to do a test that has no validity at all says a lot about Pfeiffer.
And, then I guess, Pfeiffer uses the useless test to help diagnose and
treat their patients. Is that correct?
I don't know about anyone else, but I am highly skeptical of *any*
health care provider who claims to be able to treat a wide range of
problems/disorders Pfeiffer claims to be able to treat. IIRC, Pfeiffer
claims that it can help with, among other problems: autism, ADHD,
schizophrenia, OCD, insomnia, depression.
And, the treatment for all of these problems/disorders is one form of
"nutrient therapy" or another--treatment that AFAIK has not been proven
effective in independent studies. Makes me wonder why that is.
Nancy
Unique, like everyone else
mermaid
for everyone or to the same degree. Please look these up for yourself:
grape seed extract, DMAE, and BeCalmed. I am a special education teacher,
have ADD, so does my daughter and grandson.
--
Connie the mermaid in Houston merm...@att.net
Use the above address to reply if you like.
"Ric Logg" <stu...@nwlink.com> wrote in message
news:3b54ce42$1...@news.nwlink.com...
: My wife and I suspect that our child may be suffering from ADD - and have
: scheduled him to be tested.
:
:
: Question - Are there alternatives to medications ?
:
:
: Question - Can anybody point me towards an authoritative book written by a
: well-respected individual that will give me some factual information about
: ADD ?
:
:
:
:
:
: Thank you
:
:
Dave Knapp
>I wanted to clarify because it just didn't make sense to me.
>Pfeiffer Treatment Center didn't perform the hair analysis on my son...They
>did take the sample, but it was sent to an independent laboratory for the
>analysis.....and the results were then sent to me.
You seem to be missing the point here, Cheryl. The Pfeiffer Center
took a hair sample, sent it it for analysis, and based a treatment
recommendation on that analysis.
Hair analysis is only useful for a very small number of things, none
of which include nutritional deficiencies*. Thus, the problem is not
that the Pfeiffer Center might do a bad hair analysis, but rather that
they used it at all, when it has repeatedly been shown to be
worthless.
Just based on the above, I would claim that the Pfeiffer Center is
practicing quackery.
-- Dave
* Hair analysis _is_ useful in detecting the _presence_ of certain
materials, such as lead and arsenic. However, it is entirely useless
in detecting the _absence_ of materials, as would be required to base
any diagnosis of "nutritional deficiencies." If your son actually had
or has nutritional deficiencies, my conclusion is that the Pfeiffer
Center's treatment was successful by pure blind luck, as opposed to
competent diagnosis.
Virginiaz
deficiences. This is not a radical concept. I'm posting the first medline
abstract I found -- random choice -- but the literature is filled with similar
studies.
I think basing a psychiatric diagnosis on such an analyis is rather suspect,
but as for nutritional deficiencies (as well as trace element toxins), this
practice is not controversial. Random abstact follows.
Biol Trace Elem Res 1999 Sep;69(3):269-82 (ISSN: 0163-4984)
Leung PL; Huang HM; Sun DZ; Zhu MG [Find other articles with these
Authors]
Department of Physics and Materials Science, City University of Hong
Kong, Kowloon, PR China.
In this investigation, the concentration levels of hair elements of
calcium, iron, and zinc were measured in pregnant women from Tianjin
metropolis, China. The subjects were 93 cases of pregnant women who had
been suffering from calcium, iron, or zinc deficiency judged by blood
tests at the mid-term of the second trimester or early in the third
trimester. Of these 93 cases, 82 subjects had their hair element levels
measured when the blood tests were conducted. Then, they were supplied
with mineral element nutrients of gluconic acidic zinc (noted as Zn-
nutrient), gluconic acidic calcium (Ca-nutrient), or/and ferrous sulfate
(Fe-nutrient) which were correspondent to the deficient element(s) for
more than 2 mo before 84 subjects returned to hospital for further
diagnoses and had their hair element levels measured for the second
time. Finally, in the third trimester or near-parturient phase, 13
subjects had their hair element levels measured again. Except for the
deficiencies of calcium, iron, or/and zinc, these subjects were all
healthy without symptoms of any diseases. The concentrations of hair Ca,
Fe, and Zn were measured by X-ray fluorescence (XRF) spectrometry. These
concentrations of the three hair elements measured at three different
times were statistically analyzed. From the analyses, it was clear that
hair concentrations of Ca, Fe, and Zn could reflect the effects of
supplementation. Also, the mutual resistant effects among Ca-, Fe-, and
Zn-nutrients were revealed. However, by appropriate combination, the
mutual resistant effects could be depressed and mutual promotional
effects might be enhanced. Finally, it could be concluded that mineral
element deficiencies might be convalesced by adequate compensations of
mineral element nutrients.
Biol Trace Elem Res 1999 Sep;69(3):269-82 (ISSN: 0163-4984)
Leung PL; Huang HM; Sun DZ; Zhu MG [Find other articles with these
Authors]
Department of Physics and Materials Science, City University of Hong
Kong, Kowloon, PR China.
In this investigation, the concentration levels of hair elements of
calcium, iron, and zinc were measured in pregnant women from Tianjin
metropolis, China. The subjects were 93 cases of pregnant women who had
been suffering from calcium, iron, or zinc deficiency judged by blood
tests at the mid-term of the second trimester or early in the third
trimester. Of these 93 cases, 82 subjects had their hair element levels
measured when the blood tests were conducted. Then, they were supplied
with mineral element nutrients of gluconic acidic zinc (noted as Zn-
nutrient), gluconic acidic calcium (Ca-nutrient), or/and ferrous sulfate
(Fe-nutrient) which were correspondent to the deficient element(s) for
more than 2 mo before 84 subjects returned to hospital for further
diagnoses and had their hair element levels measured for the second
time. Finally, in the third trimester or near-parturient phase, 13
subjects had their hair element levels measured again. Except for the
deficiencies of calcium, iron, or/and zinc, these subjects were all
healthy without symptoms of any diseases. The concentrations of hair Ca,
Fe, and Zn were measured by X-ray fluorescence (XRF) spectrometry. These
concentrations of the three hair elements measured at three different
times were statistically analyzed. From the analyses, it was clear that
hair concentrations of Ca, Fe, and Zn could reflect the effects of
supplementation. Also, the mutual resistant effects among Ca-, Fe-, and
Zn-nutrients were revealed. However, by appropriate combination, the
mutual resistant effects could be depressed and mutual promotional
effects might be enhanced. Finally, it could be concluded that mineral
element deficiencies might be convalesced by adequate compensations of
mineral element nutrients.
\\ - - //
( @ @ )
+--------oOOo-(_)--oOOo----+
+-------------------Oooo---+
oooO ( )
( ) ) /
\ ( (_
Dave Knapp
wrote:
>I am somewhat confused. Hair analysis is indeed used to assess nutritional
>deficiences. This is not a radical concept. I'm posting the first medline
>abstract I found -- random choice -- but the literature is filled with similar
>studies.
Please re-read the summaries you posted. The deficiencies were
diagnosed via blood tests; the hair samples were used to show that the
supplementation worked. In other words, the hair levels were used to
test for the _presence_, not the _absence_, of the nutrients, and were
used to estimate the _relative_, not _absolute_, levels. The hair
sample were NOT used to assess nutritional deficiencies.
Hair samples are notoriously bad for determining actual nutrient
levels, since hair is so subject to a wide variety of environmental
effects and the rate at which various chemicals are incorporated into
the hair differs widely between individuals. Thus, one CANNOT use the
level of something in the hair to estimate its level in the system as
a whole.
What _can_ be done with hair is to look for trace elements that
shouldn't be there (e.g. Pb, As) or to test for the variation of some
substances over time (as in the studies you cited), since the "before"
test gives you a baseline for that person's hair, and you can track
that level over time with repeated samples (which, by the way, should
still contain the original baseline segment).
I believe that if you look at all those studies you found, you will
discover that hair analysis was used for measurement of relative, not
absolute, levels of various substances.
But this is not what the Pfeiffer Center purports to do with hair
samples; they claim to be able to diagnose nutritional deficiencies
from a single sampling; in other words, they claim that hair analysis
provides absolute levels of nutrients. That is completely bogus; I
consider it very strong evidence that they are (at the very least)
dishonest with their "patients."
-- Dave
GOtterBMe
"Hair analysis is only useful for a very small number of things, none
of which include nutritional deficiencies*. Thus, the problem is not
that the Pfeiffer Center might do a bad hair analysis, but rather that
they used it at all, when it has repeatedly been shown to be
worthless.
Just based on the above, I would claim that the Pfeiffer Center is
practicing quackery."
Exactly. The issue is not whether Pfeiffer has its own on-premises hair
analysis. They "do" the hair analysis by ordering this completely bogus test
(when it comes to behavioral disorders, it is completely bogus.)
I say "My doctor did a blood test." He did not personally put it in a test
tube, add re-agents and then examine it under a microscope. He sent the blood
out and interpreted the results. He ordered treatment, or not, based on the
test.
Now, if he suspected I was anemic, that would be a good test. If he was trying
to find out if I were gifted, it would be a bad test.
Hair sampling has a very limited use. It can't be used to determine nutrition
needs, and it most certainly can't be used to pinpoint needed treatment for
ADHD.
The reason that both the TV show and the research article got multiple results
from the same hair samples is that the test is bogus.
Virginiaz
hair analysis (and I am not defending the practice of basing a psychiatric
disorder/condition on nutritional analysis, or the health center under
discussion).
However, the studies I've perused often use hair as well as blood samples
(several index measures for corroboration). I'm posting two additional
abstacts that appear (to me) to rely upon the 'absence' of a nutrient (as
opposed to the presence of any trace element). Any further light you can shed
on this subject is most appreciated, as it's more than I currently know.
Neuropsychologic performance and growth were most improved after
treatment with ZM. These findings were consistent with the presence of
zinc and other micronutrient deficiencies.
Rocz Panstw Zakl Hig 1998;49(2):241-4 (ISSN: 0035-7715)
Lukasiak J; Cajzer D; Dabrowska E; Falkiewicz B [Find other articles
with these Authors]
Pracownia Analizy Instrumentalnej, Katedra Chemii Fizycznej AM w Gdanku.
The hair zinc content in 16 patients with metabolic X syndrome (mzX) was
measured by means of atomic absorption spectrometry method. The mean
concentration (125.13 mg/kg) was lower than in the majority of other
published studies. The differences among groups of patients with
different sex or diseases (e.g. coronary heart disease, hypertension,
type II diabetes mellitus) were not significant. It seems to be probably
that deficiency of zinc plays a role in pathogenesis of mzX or that it
is a consequence of mzX.
Am J Clin Nutr 1998 Aug;68(2 Suppl):470S-475S (ISSN: 0002-9165)
Sandstead HH; Penland JG; Alcock NW; Dayal HH; Chen XC; Li JS; Zhao F;
Yang JJ [Find other articles with these Authors]
The University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston 77555-1109, USA.
hsan...@UTMB.edu.
The knowledge that zinc is essential for growth and neuropsychologic
performance and a report of zinc-responsive stunting in Chinese children
prompted this project. This article summarizes findings from a 10-wk,
double-blind, controlled trial of zinc repletion in 740 urban, 6-9-y-old
first graders from low-income families in Chongqing, Qingdao, and
Shanghai, People's Republic of China. Treatments were 20 mg Zn alone
(Z), 20 mg Zn with micronutrients (ZM), and micronutrients alone (M).
The M mixture was based on National Research Council guidelines.
Nutrients that might interfere with zinc retention were excluded or
given in lower amounts. Main outcomes were changes in neuropsychologic
performance and knee height. Hemoglobin, serum ferritin, plasma and hair
zinc, and whole blood and hair lead were also measured. Anemia was not
common, and serum ferritin concentrations were usually within the range
of normal. Mean baseline plasma zinc concentrations were marginal in
children from Chongqing and Qingdao and normal in children from
Shanghai. After treatment with ZM or M plasma zinc increased. Hair zinc
tended to decrease after all treatments. Mean baseline whole blood lead
concentrations were slightly below the limit considered excessive for
children by the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
Neuropsychologic performance and growth were most improved after
treatment with ZM. These findings were consistent with the presence of
zinc and other micronutrient deficiencies.
Subject: Re: Are there altermatives to meds?
From: Dave Knapp <d...@usa.net>
Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 9:18 PM
Message-id: <h3gmlt8aoidlbgdt4...@4ax.com>
Mark Probert
>On Fri, 20 Jul 2001 18:41:02 -0500, "Cher" <crge...@i-55.com> wrote:
>
>>I wanted to clarify because it just didn't make sense to me.
>>Pfeiffer Treatment Center didn't perform the hair analysis on my son...They
>>did take the sample, but it was sent to an independent laboratory for the
>>analysis.....and the results were then sent to me.
>
>You seem to be missing the point here, Cheryl. The Pfeiffer Center
>took a hair sample, sent it it for analysis, and based a treatment
>recommendation on that analysis.
>
>Hair analysis is only useful for a very small number of things, none
>of which include nutritional deficiencies*. Thus, the problem is not
>that the Pfeiffer Center might do a bad hair analysis, but rather that
>they used it at all, when it has repeatedly been shown to be
>worthless.
>
>Just based on the above, I would claim that the Pfeiffer Center is
>practicing quackery.
Which is exactly the point Quackwatch made.
Mark Probert
<merm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>To answer your question, I have had experience with several. Not all work
>for everyone or to the same degree. Please look these up for yourself:
>grape seed extract,
a/k/a pycnogenol. The FTC shut dow n sales fo this substance for ADHD
as the proponents could not prove efficacy.
>DMAE, and BeCalmed.
BeCalmed? Howash. Another FTC shut down.
GOtterBMe
">I am a special education teacher,
>have ADD, so does my daughter and grandson.
>"
I hope you don't recommend alternatives to the parents of your students -- you
don't, right?
Cher
mermaid <merm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:Cot67.14553$gj1.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> To answer your question, I have had experience with several. Not all work
> for everyone or to the same degree. Please look these up for yourself:
> grape seed extract, DMAE, and BeCalmed. I am a special education teacher,
> have ADD, so does my daughter and grandson.
Excellent choices......
Mark Probert
Except for the fact that the FTC has banned their manufacturers from
advertising their use of ADHD, as the manufacturers have not been able
to show any effect whatsoever.
IOW, perfect examples of snakeoil.
Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe
OTOH, grapeseed OIL is a fantastic carrier oil for aromatherapy purposes
and is great for use in making soaps.... so long as the oils/soaps
aren't given to anyone who's allergic to grapes.
Cher
Dave Knapp <d...@usa.net> wrote in message
news:h3gmlt8aoidlbgdt4...@4ax.com...
Dave...where did you get the above information? I have been to Pheiffer
Center three times and never heard anything of the kind? As a matter of
fact I would say the compete opposite is true. I don't know where you're
getting your info from, but the hair analysis is a part of an entire "work
up" that the clinic does. It is used in conjunction with other lab
results.
I have one of the "Mineral Analysis Reports" regarding my sons hair in front
of me. It says the following...
WHY YOUR HAIR WAS USED FOR MINERAL ANAYSIS:
Hair mineral levels, when properly interpreted, best represent tissue
levels. "The hair, nails and teeth are tissues in which trace minerals are
sequestered and or stored.
Measurements of minerals in blood indicate "the component absorbed and
temporarily in circulation before excretion and or storage" In addition,
the blood has the ability to maintain mineral homeostasis at the expense of
organs and other systems of the body.
"The milk, urine, saliva, and sweat measure the (mineral) component that
is absorbed but excreted" Hair mineral tests, then, measure a different
aspect of the system than blood or urine.
The relative level of stored minerals provides an indication of the
minerals that are available to form metalloenzymes or to act as a catalyst
to various enzymes.
Minerals are stored in other body tissues but liver, brain, muscle,
bones, heart, etc. biopsies are expensive and difficult.
This report shows levels found in your hair of nutrient (essential)
minerals and toxic minerals. Classification of this type is necessary but
possibly misleading since all minerals become toxic at sufficiently high
levels, and most toxic minerals are essential at extremely low levels. For
some minerals the margin between the level that is beneficial and the level
that is harmful may be relatively small. Because minerals interact, the
beneficial or harmful levels of one mineral are often determined by the
availability of one or more other minerals.
The essential biological minerals are the inorganic counterparts of the
essential biological organic nutrients we call vitamins. Unlike vitamins,
minerals cannot be synthesized by living organisms, they must be assimilated
by the body from what we eat and drink.
A definition of a nutrient (essential) mineral might be an element which
is necessary for optimal function of the organism. Nutrient minerals are
associated with enzymes as an integral part of the molecule (metalloenzymes)
and as activators of the enzymes (metal ion activated enzymes).
TOXIC MINERAL LEVELS:
Any mineral may become toxic at a given level in this report, minerals are
defined as TOXIC when it has been determined that they would not be
supplemented at low systemic levels. High Toxic metal levels contribute to
or cause, impaired function of cell metabolism. They may also interfere
with the absorption and utilization of nutrient minerals. Levels at which
individual toxic minerals will cause this impaired function vary with
individual patients andmay depend upon the general nutritional state, age
and genetic factors.
Low systemic levels of nutrient minerals contribute to the absorption
and metabolic interference of toxic minerals. High systemic levels of
nutrient minerals offer protection against toxic minerals and minimize their
storage.
Proper therapy to reduce systemic toxic mineral levels may,for a short
time, result in an increase in the amount of these minerals detected in hair
because minerals are being mobilized from their storage areas in the body
and excreted through the hair follicles. When the stored minerals are
depleted, the level detected in the hair will usually drop.
Proper utilization of this hair mineral analysis requires the expertise
of a physician who can correlate this information with the patients other
lab test results, clinical symptomathlogy, bioecologic environment and
general health history.
It goes on and on giving definition of report terms...reference range,
"standard deviation", malabsorption, and of course his actual
results.......I felt some of this information might clear up any confusion.
Sorry for the length of this...I really did leave out a bunch...
--
Cheryl
\o/
Glory To God!
Virginiaz
<<The reason that both the TV show and the research article got multiple
results from the same hair samples is that the test is bogus.>>
I'm not defending the analysis of hair samples for psychiatric disorders, nor
am I defending the health center under discussion.
However
Virginiaz
<<The reason that both the TV show and the research article got multiple
resultsfrom the same hair samples is that the test is bogus.>>
Continued...
I am not defending hair analysis for the diagnosis of psychiatric disorders,
nor am I defending the health center under discussion.
However, because two (or more) labs reported vastly different results from the
same hair sample reflects the inadequacies of the individual labs, not
necessarily the inherent value of the procedure.
Take, for example, the grossly unfortunate discrepancies in lap analyses of pap
smears or breast biopsy samples; every once in a while you hear of gross
variancies in these pathololgy findings, based on human error or compromised
technology.
Perhaps, if this tv show report (which I did no see) revealed anything truely
valuable, it's that there are labs out there doing a very poor job of hair
analysis; and if there are halth centers purporting to diagnose psychiatric
disorders based on these findings, they, too, are failing in their job.
Dave Knapp
>Dave Knapp <d...@usa.net> wrote in message
>news:h3gmlt8aoidlbgdt4...@4ax.com...
>> On 22 Jul 2001 20:23:18 GMT, virg...@aol.commentary (Virginiaz)
>> wrote:
>>
>> But this is not what the Pfeiffer Center purports to do with hair
>> samples; they claim to be able to diagnose nutritional deficiencies
>> from a single sampling; in other words, they claim that hair analysis
>> provides absolute levels of nutrients.
>
>Dave...where did you get the above information? I have been to Pheiffer
>Center three times and never heard anything of the kind?
Really? Then why do you quote them saying exactly what I claimed:
>I have one of the "Mineral Analysis Reports" regarding my sons hair in front
>of me. It says the following...
>WHY YOUR HAIR WAS USED FOR MINERAL ANAYSIS:
>Hair mineral levels, when properly interpreted, best represent tissue
>levels.
The above statement claims that hair analysis provides absolute levels
of nutrients, just like I said above. The statement is false; thus,
we have at least one clear example of the Pfeiffer Center lying to
you. If I were you, I would think carefully about whether you can
trust anything else they say.
-- Dave
nknisley
>
> Mark Probert wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, 23 Jul 2001 08:24:27 -0500, "Cher" <crge...@i-55.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >mermaid <merm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> > >news:Cot67.14553$gj1.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > >> To answer your question, I have had experience with several. Not all work
> > >> for everyone or to the same degree. Please look these up for yourself:
> > >> grape seed extract, DMAE, and BeCalmed. I am a special education teacher,
> > >> have ADD, so does my daughter and grandson.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Excellent choices......
> >
> > Except for the fact that the FTC has banned their manufacturers from
> > advertising their use of ADHD, as the manufacturers have not been able
> > to show any effect whatsoever.
> >
> > IOW, perfect examples of snakeoil.
>
> OTOH, grapeseed OIL is a fantastic carrier oil for aromatherapy purposes
> and is great for use in making soaps.... so long as the oils/soaps
> aren't given to anyone who's allergic to grapes.
Oooh, here's an idea for you, Kitten:
A line of aromatherapy oils, scents, and soap made with grapeseed oil
and market the line as products that will "help people focus and be
calmer."
What we need now is a great name for great this line of products....
Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe
Well, my soaps, bath oils, etc are Pure Goddess Creations...
Cher
Dave Knapp <d...@usa.net> wrote in message
news:1gjoltsgd34rvd9do...@4ax.com...
I know it was rather long, but did you read the rest of it?
Cheryl
nknisley
OK, that's the brand name. But we need a catchy name for this particular
line of products. Too bad BeCalmed is already taken.
Mark Probert
wrote:
> and if there are halth centers purporting to diagnose psychiatric
>disorders based on these findings, they, too, are failing in their job.
I saw the report. Those labs you refer to here are doing more than
failing. They are practicing quackery to extort money. AFAIAC, a
felony.
Mark Probert
<cath...@whitepine.com> wrote:
>Mark Probert wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 23 Jul 2001 08:24:27 -0500, "Cher" <crge...@i-55.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >mermaid <merm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>> >news:Cot67.14553$gj1.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>> >> To answer your question, I have had experience with several. Not all work
>> >> for everyone or to the same degree. Please look these up for yourself:
>> >> grape seed extract, DMAE, and BeCalmed. I am a special education teacher,
>> >> have ADD, so does my daughter and grandson.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Excellent choices......
>>
>> Except for the fact that the FTC has banned their manufacturers from
>> advertising their use of ADHD, as the manufacturers have not been able
>> to show any effect whatsoever.
>>
>> IOW, perfect examples of snakeoil.
>
>
>OTOH, grapeseed OIL is a fantastic carrier oil for aromatherapy purposes
>and is great for use in making soaps.... so long as the oils/soaps
>aren't given to anyone who's allergic to grapes.
Grapes have a far better function...wine....
Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe
You don't put the seeds in wine, silly.
nknisley
>
> Mark Probert wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, 23 Jul 2001 13:57:06 GMT, Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe
> > <cath...@whitepine.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Mark Probert wrote:
> > >>
> > >> On Mon, 23 Jul 2001 08:24:27 -0500, "Cher" <crge...@i-55.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >mermaid <merm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> > >> >news:Cot67.14553$gj1.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > >> >> To answer your question, I have had experience with several. Not all work
> > >> >> for everyone or to the same degree. Please look these up for yourself:
> > >> >> grape seed extract, DMAE, and BeCalmed. I am a special education teacher,
> > >> >> have ADD, so does my daughter and grandson.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >Excellent choices......
> > >>
> > >> Except for the fact that the FTC has banned their manufacturers from
> > >> advertising their use of ADHD, as the manufacturers have not been able
> > >> to show any effect whatsoever.
> > >>
> > >> IOW, perfect examples of snakeoil.
> > >
> > >
> > >OTOH, grapeseed OIL is a fantastic carrier oil for aromatherapy purposes
> > >and is great for use in making soaps.... so long as the oils/soaps
> > >aren't given to anyone who's allergic to grapes.
> >
> > Grapes have a far better function...wine....
>
> You don't put the seeds in wine, silly.
You put the wine in you.
nknisley
>
> To answer your question, I have had experience with several. Not all work
> for everyone or to the same degree. Please look these up for yourself:
> grape seed extract, DMAE, and BeCalmed. I am a special education teacher,
> have ADD, so does my daughter and grandson.
OK. I did look your suggested alternatives up.
Here's what I found in my albeit not exhaustive search:
Grape seed extract: Primarily advertised as an antioxidant. I haven't
been able to find any research showing antioxidants in general, or grape
seed extract in particular, are effective in treating ADHD. And, I
didn't find any marketing sites claiming it helped ADHD, although there
may be some sites that do among the many selling grape seed extract.
Grape seed extract seems to be primarily marketed to treat or prevent a
host of seemingly unrelated health problems *other than ADHD* though
including: arthritis, allergies, ulcers, cancer, "degenerative
diseases," gum diseases, cardiovascular problems, cataracts, and PMS.
(Do I feel my skepticism growing?)
Grape seed extract is part of a group generically known as "pycnogenol."
IIRC, the manufacturers of at least one supplement from the pycnogenol
group was unable to show that it was safe or effective for treating ADHD
and had to stop making claims to that effect.
DMAE: Information I found indicates that DMAE, found primarily in
sardines and anchovies, may increase levels of the brain
neurotransmitter acetylcholine.
Early research with DMAE focused on the possible benefits for relieving
tardive dyskinesia (a trembling disorder caused by long-term
antipsychotic medication) and Alzheimer's. However, more recent studies
have apparently failed to confirm any benefit for either TD or
Alzheimer's.
DMAE is marketed as a "brain stimulant" and is touted by marketing sites
as being helpful for ADHD, learning disorders, insomnia, and
Alzheimer's. It is also marketed for its "anti-aging" properties, its
ability to "increase IQ," and to help with disorders such as depression,
and chronic fatigue syndrome.
The only information I could find about studies of DMAE and the
treatment of ADHD was a reference to a study done by--good ol' Dr. Carl
Pfeiffer (after whom the Pfeiffer Treatment Center is named.) As far as
I can determine, this research is not exactly recent--having been
reported in 1957.
Looks like Doc Pfeiffer may have "developed," promoted and sold a brand
named DMAE. Can anyone say "conflict of interest"?
Of course, treatment of ADHD may go back even further than that
according to one web site which claims DMAE was used effectively to
treat ADHD *before Ritalin was invented*! Since Ritalin has been in use
for the treatment of ADHD for, what?, more than 50 years now....Hmmm,
wonder why we haven't heard more about DMAE for the treatment of ADHD if
its been used to treat ADHD effectively for over 50 years.
beCALM'd (BeCalmed): From what I can gather, beCALM'd is just a
different label for Restores+, a product which has been discussed in
ASAD *many* times--its manufacturer had to back down on unsubstantiated
marketing claims that it was effective in the treatment of ADHD.
beCALM'd is also marketed on marketing web sites as "the greatest
medical breakthrough of the century" since it is claimed to treat, in
addition to ADHD, a wide range of problems including: depression,
alcoholism, drug addiction, "extreme shyness," compulsive behaviors,
anorexia, bulimia, teen violence, insomnia, PMS, and weight loss.
After reading the web sites marketing grape seed extract, DMAE and
beCALM'd, what I'd really like to know is: Where is the FTC?!!!!
nknisley
For what?! (Other than lining the pockets of the companies and
individuals with web sites and stores marketing these products....)
Virginiaz
brain site.
(prefrontal cortex being relevant to hypothesized ADD dysregulation)
"Grade seed or pine bark extract has also shown some mild benefit for
prefrontal cortex
issues. Grape seed or pine bark extract are proanthocyanidin compound.
These compounds have been found to increase blood flow and they act as
superantioxidants, 20-50 times as powerful as vitamin E. There are no
published studies with grape seed or pine bark extract in ADD, but there
are a number of published case reports. There is a body of medical
literature that says these compounds are very helpful for people with
varicose veins. If you have ADD and varicose veins then grape seed or
pine bark extract may be for you. "
GOtterBMe
"After reading the web sites marketing grape seed extract, DMAE and
beCALM'd, what I'd really like to know is: Where is the FTC?!!!!"
I actually have a complaint I want to send to the FDA or FTC -- who gets it
(snake oil ad that was sent to me in email).
Does anyone know if I can just forward the email to them, and if so, to whom?
Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe
Well, whatever I call it, I can't put that name on today's batch. It's
just soponified (sp?) goats' milk, soybean oil, cottonseed oil, just a
touch of olive oil (great for the complexion), and a bit of oatmeal
(also good for the complexion).
GOtterBMe
Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 11:19 AM
Message-id: <1gjoltsgd34rvd9do...@4ax.com>
-- Dave"
Absolutely.
The report posted is the best proof available that the criticisms given here
are valid.
GOtterBMe
(Virginiaz)
Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 10:14 AM
Message-id: <20010723111432...@ng-fn1.aol.com>
Gotter said:
<<The reason that both the TV show and the research article got multiple
resultsfrom the same hair samples is that the test is bogus.>>
Continued...
I am not defending hair analysis for the diagnosis of psychiatric disorders,
nor am I defending the health center under discussion.
However, because two (or more) labs reported vastly different results from the
same hair sample reflects the inadequacies of the individual labs, not
necessarily the inherent value of the procedure."
That isn't how it worked. The same lab got the same hair labeled with different
names. The same hair at the same lab resulted in markedly different reports.
This is not unlike chiropractors reading x-rays. Multiple chiropractors seeing
the same x-rays -- their diagnoses varied markedly.
I think you misunderstood what I posted. It's also possible that I worded it
badly and either misled you or helped you along. :)\
Dave Knapp
> I know it was rather long, but did you read the rest of it?
Yep.
-- Dave
nknisley
>
> I don't know much about grape seed extract, but Amen says the following on his
> brain site.
>
> (prefrontal cortex being relevant to hypothesized ADD dysregulation)
>
> "Grade seed or pine bark extract has also shown some mild benefit for
> prefrontal cortex
> issues. Grape seed or pine bark extract are proanthocyanidin compound.
> These compounds have been found to increase blood flow and they act as
> superantioxidants, 20-50 times as powerful as vitamin E. There are no
> published studies with grape seed or pine bark extract in ADD, but there
> are a number of published case reports. There is a body of medical
> literature that says these compounds are very helpful for people with
> varicose veins. If you have ADD and varicose veins then grape seed or
> pine bark extract may be for you. "
Gotta remember this one so that when the next poster with comorbid ADHD
and varicose veins asks for help, I can direct the poster to Amen's
site.
GOtterBMe
Message-id: <mlepltku2rm93tpvc...@4ax.com>
Yep.
-- Dave"
Cheryl, if it's based on scientific double-talk, reading the rest of it doesn't
change that.
We are all, I'm sure, very glad that your son is doing better, but I will
always wonder what else happened to explain it. It could have been as simple as
neurophysical changes in the brain, changes that begin with puberty's hormones
and go on for some years.
Dave Knapp
wrote:
>Thanks for your well-informed explanation. I certainly don't know much about
>hair analysis (and I am not defending the practice of basing a psychiatric
>disorder/condition on nutritional analysis, or the health center under
>discussion).
>
>However, the studies I've perused often use hair as well as blood samples
>(several index measures for corroboration). I'm posting two additional
>abstacts that appear (to me) to rely upon the 'absence' of a nutrient (as
>opposed to the presence of any trace element). Any further light you can shed
>on this subject is most appreciated, as it's more than I currently know.
I am not ignoring you on this one, Virginiaz; you asked a good
question, and the response is somewhat complicated. I am trying to
figure out a decent way to explain it without pictures, or how to do
it with pictures if necessary. So expect something Real Soon Now.
-- Dave
Virginiaz
<<Gotta remember this one so that when the next poster with comorbid ADHD
and varicose veins asks for help, I can direct the poster to Amen's
site.
Nancy>>
Virginiaz
Subject: Re: Are there altermatives to meds?
From: Dave Knapp <d...@usa.net>
Date: Tue, Jul 24, 2001 1:53 AM
Message-id: <i5lpltols8pc43ikr...@4ax.com>
-- Dave
Mark Probert
<cath...@whitepine.com> wrote:
>Mark Probert wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 23 Jul 2001 13:57:06 GMT, Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe
>> <cath...@whitepine.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Mark Probert wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, 23 Jul 2001 08:24:27 -0500, "Cher" <crge...@i-55.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >mermaid <merm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>> >> >news:Cot67.14553$gj1.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>> >> >> To answer your question, I have had experience with several. Not all work
>> >> >> for everyone or to the same degree. Please look these up for yourself:
>> >> >> grape seed extract, DMAE, and BeCalmed. I am a special education teacher,
>> >> >> have ADD, so does my daughter and grandson.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >Excellent choices......
>> >>
>> >> Except for the fact that the FTC has banned their manufacturers from
>> >> advertising their use of ADHD, as the manufacturers have not been able
>> >> to show any effect whatsoever.
>> >>
>> >> IOW, perfect examples of snakeoil.
>> >
>> >
>> >OTOH, grapeseed OIL is a fantastic carrier oil for aromatherapy purposes
>> >and is great for use in making soaps.... so long as the oils/soaps
>> >aren't given to anyone who's allergic to grapes.
>>
>> Grapes have a far better function...wine....
>
>
>You don't put the seeds in wine, silly.
Why take a chance at ruining the grape?
Anyway, I always knew that pycnogenol was the pits....
Mark Probert
Wouldn't the chemical make-up of the hair vary? IOW,wouldn't the hair
have different chemicals at different points along the strand?
If the hair is just clumped together, wouldn't the results of any
analysis be an average over the growth period?
nknisley
>
> virg...@aol.commentary (Virginiaz) writes:
>
> >I don't know much about grape seed extract, but Amen says the following on his
> >brain site.
>
> >(prefrontal cortex being relevant to hypothesized ADD dysregulation)
>
> >"Grade seed or pine bark extract has also shown some mild benefit for
> >prefrontal cortex
> >issues. Grape seed or pine bark extract are proanthocyanidin compound.
> >These compounds have been found to increase blood flow and they act as
> >superantioxidants, 20-50 times as powerful as vitamin E. There are no
> >published studies with grape seed or pine bark extract in ADD, but there
> >are a number of published case reports. There is a body of medical
> >literature that says these compounds are very helpful for people with
> >varicose veins. If you have ADD and varicose veins then grape seed or
> >pine bark extract may be for you. "
>
> because I don't have varicose veins. I knew there had to be a logical
> explanation after hearing all the ecstatic ADD cure reports on the
> cassette tape they sent me.
Didn't help your ADD eh? Well, gee....What about your arthritis,
allergies, ulcers, cancer, "degenerative
diseases," gum diseases, cardiovascular problems, cataracts, and PMS?
OK, maybe it wouldn't help *you* WRT PMS, but what about all the other
problems?
Dave Knapp
That is only one of many possible problems; however, there are ways to
avoid it. In my response, I will show how hair analysis is useless
for diagnosis **even if it is done perfectly by the lab**.
I know that a great deal of the discussion here has been centered
around how the lab results can vary tremendously, probably a result of
incompetent labwork. While these make great TV stories, the problem
is tht they obscure the fact that hair analysis is worthless for
diagnosing nutritional deficiencies even if done perfectly.
-- Dave
mermaid
for them, but it may not work for them.
--
Connie MS the mermaid in Houston merm...@att.net
Use the above address to reply if you like.
"GOtterBMe" <gott...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010723004542...@ng-ct1.aol.com...
: Mermaid said:
:
: ">I am a special education teacher,
: >have ADD, so does my daughter and grandson.
: >"
:
:
: I hope you don't recommend alternatives to the parents of your students --
you
: don't, right?
:
:
mermaid
--
Connie MS the mermaid in Houston merm...@att.net
Use the above address to reply if you like.
"Mark Probert" <mark_p...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3b5b8d6c...@news.cis.dfn.de...
: On Sun, 22 Jul 2001 05:20:34 GMT, "mermaid"
: <merm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
I have never seen any advertisement for Grape seed extract that claims that
it is used for anything at all. Just that it is a dietary supplement.
However, I have read anecdotal reports from individuals that it works for
ADD/ADHD, but not always for everyone. I have friends who use it and can't
do without it. It helped my grandson also, but not to the extent that I
would have liked. It contains the same ingredients as Pycnogenol, but is
stronger and less expensive.
:
: a/k/a pycnogenol. The FTC shut dow n sales fo this substance for ADHD
: as the proponents could not prove efficacy.
:
: >Connie the mermaid in Houston merm...@att.net
:
: > Use the above address to reply if you like.
: >"Ric Logg" <stu...@nwlink.com> wrote in message
: >news:3b54ce42$1...@news.nwlink.com...
: >: My wife and I suspect that our child may be suffering from ADD - and
have
: >: scheduled him to be tested.
: >: Question - Are there alternatives to medications ?
: >:
: >: Question - Can anybody point me towards an authoritative book written
by a
: >: well-respected individual that will give me some factual information
about
: >: ADD ?
: >:
: >:
: >:
: >:
: >:
: >: Thank you
: >:
: >:
: >
: >
:
mermaid
--
Connie MS the mermaid in Houston merm...@att.net
Use the above address to reply if you like.
"Mark Probert" <Mark_P...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3b5c6e67...@news.CIS.DFN.DE...
: On Mon, 23 Jul 2001 13:57:06 GMT, Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe
: <cath...@whitepine.com> wrote:
:
: >Mark Probert wrote:
: >>
: >> On Mon, 23 Jul 2001 08:24:27 -0500, "Cher" <crge...@i-55.com> wrote:
: >> >mermaid <merm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
: >> >news:Cot67.14553$gj1.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
: >> >> To answer your question, I have had experience with several. Not
all work
: >> >> for everyone or to the same degree. Please look these up for
yourself:
: >> >> grape seed extract, DMAE, and BeCalmed. I am a special education
teacher,
: >> >> have ADD, so does my daughter and grandson.
: >> >
: >> >Excellent choices......
: >>
: >> Except for the fact that the FTC has banned their manufacturers from
: >> advertising their use of ADHD, as the manufacturers have not been able
: >> to show any effect whatsoever.
: >>
: >> IOW, perfect examples of snakeoil.
:
: Grapes have a far better function...wine....
:
:
:
mermaid
year: Attention Deficit Disorders: Assessment and Teaching, written by
Janet Lerner, Barbara Lowenthal and Sue Lerner. Its purpose is to educate
teachers and others about ADD/ADHD, discuss latest legislation,
responsibilty of the schools, assessment, medication and to provide support
for parents, plus resources. (from the back cover).
You can probably order it from Amazon, Barnes and Noble or Borders. They
often have used ones. I am keeping mine as a resource.
--
Connie MS the mermaid in Houston merm...@att.net
Use the above address to reply if you like.
: Question - Can anybody point me towards an authoritative book written by a
Dave Knapp
wrote:
>Thanks for your well-informed explanation. I certainly don't know much about
>hair analysis (and I am not defending the practice of basing a psychiatric
>disorder/condition on nutritional analysis, or the health center under
>discussion).
>
>However, the studies I've perused often use hair as well as blood samples
>(several index measures for corroboration). I'm posting two additional
>abstacts that appear (to me) to rely upon the 'absence' of a nutrient (as
>opposed to the presence of any trace element). Any further light you can shed
>on this subject is most appreciated, as it's more than I currently know.
>
>Rocz Panstw Zakl Hig 1998;49(2):241-4 (ISSN: 0035-7715)
>
>Lukasiak J; Cajzer D; Dabrowska E; Falkiewicz B [Find other articles
>with these Authors]
>Pracownia Analizy Instrumentalnej, Katedra Chemii Fizycznej AM w Gdanku.
>
>The hair zinc content in 16 patients with metabolic X syndrome (mzX) was
>measured by means of atomic absorption spectrometry method. The mean
>concentration (125.13 mg/kg) was lower than in the majority of other
>published studies. The differences among groups of patients with
>different sex or diseases (e.g. coronary heart disease, hypertension,
>type II diabetes mellitus) were not significant. It seems to be probably
>that deficiency of zinc plays a role in pathogenesis of mzX or that it
>is a consequence of mzX.
In this first study, the mean hair zinc content is compared with the
mean hair zinc content of a control group (or, at least, it should
have been -- the researchers seem to have used reported concentrations
from other studies, which is quite bad research methodology).
There is a fundamental statistical principle at work here: it is often
possible to detect differences in the means of distributions for which
it is impossible to classify individual cases. This principle is very
often misunderstood by non-statisticians, with bad results.
Let me try to explain. When you measure anything in a group of
people, you don't get the same result for each person; you get a
distribution. In general, medical scientists approximate that
distribution by a "bell curve," or Gaussian distribution, which is a
pretty good assumption because of something called the Central Value
Theorem, which states that a combination of multiple probability
distributions tends to look like a Gaussian.
A Gaussian distribution is characterized by its center (or mean) and
its width (or standard deviation). If all your measured results are
close togther, then the standard deviation will be small, and the
distribution will be narrow. On the other hand, if your measured
results are all over the map, then the standard deviation will be
large, and the distribution will be wide.
Often, when comparing two distributions, you statistically look at the
differences in their means. The uncertainty in that difference comes
from two sources: the widths of the distributions and the number of
samples you took. For two narrow distributions that have means that
are far apart, only a few samples need to be taken to determine that
the means are different. But for distributions that are wider and
closer together, more samples are required in order to see the
difference. In the most common case, the two distributions overlap,
and quite a number of samples are required to establish that there is
a difference in the means of the distributions.
In the case you referenced above, this is exactly what the researchers
did. I am guessing that, for whatever reason, they had no way to
directly measure tissue levels of zinc, so they used hair levels.
That's not too bad a choice, though, because they had enough samples
to make a reasonable estimate of the mean of the distribution, which
was different from the control set they used. I would like to see the
actual values of the means and standard deviations, but it is not very
common to have those included in an abstract.
In any case, we know from our discussion of hair analysis that the
width of the distributions of hair zinc levels was likely to be large,
because of all the factors that can affect the levels. Probably, the
distribution of hair zinc in the subjects and those of the control
group overlapped significantly. And that is where the problem with
using hair levels for diagnosis comes in; even though there is enough
statistical evidence to show that the means are different, you can't,
from a single sample, tell which of the two distributions it came
from, because they overlap so much.
A well-known example of this exact problem seems perennially in the
news: IQ scores of different races. It is well-established that the
mean IQ score of African Americans is lower than that of Asian
Americans. But the distributions overlap almost completely; it is
only because there are so many samples that the difference can be
established. If you have an African American and an Asian American
sitting next to each other, you _cannot_ reliably say that the IQ of
the Asian American is higher than that of the African American; the
probability of being right is only very slightly higher than 50%.
Likewise, if you have an IQ score, you can't reliably tell what the
race of the person was.
Well, the above is _exactly_ what the Pfeiffer Center is telling
Cheryl it can do with hair analysis! From a scientific/statistical
standpoint, it is quite clear that they are not telling the truth.
>Am J Clin Nutr 1998 Aug;68(2 Suppl):470S-475S (ISSN: 0002-9165)
>
>Sandstead HH; Penland JG; Alcock NW; Dayal HH; Chen XC; Li JS; Zhao F;
>Yang JJ [Find other articles with these Authors]
>The University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston 77555-1109, USA.
>hsan...@UTMB.edu.
>
>The knowledge that zinc is essential for growth and neuropsychologic
>performance and a report of zinc-responsive stunting in Chinese children
>prompted this project. This article summarizes findings from a 10-wk,
>double-blind, controlled trial of zinc repletion in 740 urban, 6-9-y-old
>first graders from low-income families in Chongqing, Qingdao, and
>Shanghai, People's Republic of China. Treatments were 20 mg Zn alone
>(Z), 20 mg Zn with micronutrients (ZM), and micronutrients alone (M).
>The M mixture was based on National Research Council guidelines.
>Nutrients that might interfere with zinc retention were excluded or
>given in lower amounts. Main outcomes were changes in neuropsychologic
>performance and knee height. Hemoglobin, serum ferritin, plasma and hair
> zinc, and whole blood and hair lead were also measured. Anemia was not
>common, and serum ferritin concentrations were usually within the range
>of normal. Mean baseline plasma zinc concentrations were marginal in
>children from Chongqing and Qingdao and normal in children from
>Shanghai. After treatment with ZM or M plasma zinc increased. Hair zinc
>tended to decrease after all treatments. Mean baseline whole blood lead
>concentrations were slightly below the limit considered excessive for
>children by the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
>Neuropsychologic performance and growth were most improved after
>treatment with ZM. These findings were consistent with the presence of
>zinc and other micronutrient deficiencies.
This one is another example of using multiple measurements from the
same person to track the mineral content over time, which I addressed
in my previous post. What is remarkable, however, is that in this
study it appears that the hair zinc level went _down_ after zinc
supplementation was given! I have no idea why this would happen, but
it certainly renders the notion that you can diagnose mineral
deficiencies from the hair even more suspect!
I hope this helped. I was tempted to go into great detail about how
hair analysis is done, and why it is only used by researchers for
measuring elements (like zinc, lead, arsenic, etc.). But you probably
don't care about the details of x-ray fluorescence. :-)
Let me know if I can explain anything better.
-- Dave
Mark Probert
<merm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Don't do it. Absolutely do not do it. You are a teacher. Do that very
well.
Mark Probert
<merm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>
>--
>Connie MS the mermaid in Houston merm...@att.net
>Use the above address to reply if you like.
>
>"Mark Probert" <mark_p...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:3b5b8d6c...@news.cis.dfn.de...
>: On Sun, 22 Jul 2001 05:20:34 GMT, "mermaid"
>: <merm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>I have never seen any advertisement for Grape seed extract that claims that
>it is used for anything at all.
You have not looked hard enough. It is VERY old news around here.
>Just that it is a dietary supplement.
Why would someone take a dietary supplement if it does not do
something?
>However, I have read anecdotal
Anecdotes are not facts. They are, at best interesting stories. At
worst, outright lies.
>reports from individuals that it works for
>ADD/ADHD, but not always for everyone.
Have you heard of the placebo or Hawthorne effects?
>I have friends who use it and can't
>do without it.
That may be the first report of it being addictive.
>It helped my grandson also, but not to the extent that I
>would have liked. It contains the same ingredients as Pycnogenol, but is
>stronger and less expensive.
And equally useless.
Mark Probert
wrote:
>It didn't help my arthritis or cardiovascular problems either.
Nor mine, as I mentioned before.
>I'm
>beginning to wonder if all those semi-anonymous (e.g "Bill Smith from
>Texas") ecstatic anecdotal reports of amazing cures on the cassette
>tape they sent me might have been faked.
Consumer Reports had a comment several years ago from a ad agency
exec. He said that anecdotes are adjusted to highlight selling points.
'nuf said.
GOtterBMe
(Mark Probert)
Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 6:49 AM
Message-id: <3b5eb231...@news.cis.dfn.de>
On Tue, 24 Jul 2001 19:04:56 GMT, "mermaid"
<merm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Don't do it. Absolutely do not do it. You are a teacher. Do that very
well.
>If someone asks, I tell them what others have told me have been successful
>for them, but it may not work for them."
I completely agree with you, Mark. I am a special educator, and I have taken
some alternatives, so I am not blindly anti-alternatives.
However -- if it's wrong for me to recommend that a child take a med, it's
equally wrong for me to recommend that a child take an alternative.
Cher
Dave Knapp <d...@usa.net> wrote in message
news:f1rslt00bibnm2rcc...@4ax.com...
> In the case you referenced above, this is exactly what the researchers
> did. I am guessing that, for whatever reason, they had no way to
> directly measure tissue levels of zinc, so they used hair levels.
> That's not too bad a choice, though, because they had enough samples
> to make a reasonable estimate of the mean of the distribution, which
> was different from the control set they used.
I would like to see the
> actual values of the means and standard deviations, but it is not very
> common to have those included in an abstract.
Would it make a difference if those were included? My sons mineral analysis
is broke down as follows...
LOW falls into these categories. Below 2 Standard Deviations, Two standard
deviations below, One standard deviation below.
HIGH..falls into the following. Above 2 standard deviations, Two standard
deviations above, one standard deviation above. They include a "graph"
like reference range with the "mean" in the middle. Patient level (parts
per million) and also a numerical value of reference range.
The graph for reading Toxic Mineral levels is a bit different on the
report....but still pretty much the same.
Cheryl
Cher
mermaid <merm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:wMj77.17660$gj1.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
>
> --
> Connie MS the mermaid in Houston merm...@att.net
> Use the above address to reply if you like.
>
> "Mark Probert" <mark_p...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3b5b8d6c...@news.cis.dfn.de...
> : On Sun, 22 Jul 2001 05:20:34 GMT, "mermaid"
> : <merm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> I have never seen any advertisement for Grape seed extract that claims
that
> it is used for anything at all. Just that it is a dietary supplement.
> However, I have read anecdotal reports from individuals that it works for
> ADD/ADHD, but not always for everyone. I have friends who use it and
can't
> do without it. It helped my grandson also, but not to the extent that I
> would have liked. It contains the same ingredients as Pycnogenol, but is
> stronger and less expensive.
My daughter took pycnogenol along with two other supplements when we started
trying to help her better control her Tourette syndrome/motor tic syndrome.
I was told that the pycnogenol encouraged better blood flow to the brain and
basically would "help" the other supplements work better.... We saw BIG
improvement within three days. We did not keep her on the pycnogenol
because it was so expensive, but rather kept her on the other two. They
seemed to work just fine without it. Thank goodness~
Cheryl
nknisley
> beginning to wonder if all those semi-anonymous (e.g "Bill Smith from
> Texas") ecstatic anecdotal reports of amazing cures on the cassette
> tape they sent me might have been faked.
Well, gosh. Are you saying that at least some of the salescritters
peddling pycnogenol might be a tad less than honest?
If the anecdotal reports on the tape might, just might, be faked as you
suggest, perhaps the claims made on the web sites marketing pycnogenol
might also <gasp> be, er, exaggerated!!!
Mark Probert
That agrees with the claims that it is useless. It made no difference
for you son.
Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe
Coincidence?
Oh, and it's her daughter she's talking about here. ;-p
--
Kitten
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
I'm a bitch, I'm a lover; I'm a child, I'm a mother
I'm a sinner, I'm a saint; I do not feel ashamed
I'm your hell, I'm you dream; I'm nothing in between
You know you wouldn't want it any other way
-
- - Meredith Brooks
Dave Knapp
>Dave Knapp <d...@usa.net> wrote in message
>news:f1rslt00bibnm2rcc...@4ax.com...
>
>> In the case you referenced above, this is exactly what the researchers
>> did. I am guessing that, for whatever reason, they had no way to
>> directly measure tissue levels of zinc, so they used hair levels.
>> That's not too bad a choice, though, because they had enough samples
>> to make a reasonable estimate of the mean of the distribution, which
>> was different from the control set they used.
>I would like to see the
>> actual values of the means and standard deviations, but it is not very
>> common to have those included in an abstract.
>
>Would it make a difference if those were included? My sons mineral analysis
>is broke down as follows...
>
>LOW falls into these categories. Below 2 Standard Deviations, Two standard
>deviations below, One standard deviation below.
>
>HIGH..falls into the following. Above 2 standard deviations, Two standard
>deviations above, one standard deviation above. They include a "graph"
>like reference range with the "mean" in the middle. Patient level (parts
>per million) and also a numerical value of reference range.
>
>The graph for reading Toxic Mineral levels is a bit different on the
>report....but still pretty much the same.
As it happens, this data is not of very much use for this case. That
is because the variation in hair mineral levels is only weakly related
to the tissue levels, and much more affected by environmental factors.
In addition, I'd love to know what they used to establish the curves.
At any rate, you can estimate the likelihood of getting a gven result
from the parent population using their numbers; the likelihood of a
result further from the mean than 2 standard deviations is about 5%; a
result further from the mean than 1 standard deviation is about 35%.
Of course, these values give no indication of the _cause_ of the
variance from the mean, which is what is at issue here.
By the way, Cher -- I have a question about your friend that used
fucoidan for a cancer treatment. How many injections of fucoidan did
she receive, and how often were they given?
-- Dave
Mark Probert
OOPS!
Cher
Dave Knapp <d...@usa.net> wrote in message
news:s3bvltovv4j8hm8j9...@4ax.com...
Dave, on the report itself it says....
This is the statistical logarithmic average of a very highly selected health
population.
REFERENCE RANGE: This range includes one staandard deviation above and below
the mean of this selected population.
ONE STANDARD DEVIATION above and below the mean represents approximately 68%
of this selected healthy population.
Two Standard Deviations both above and below the mean, encompasses
approximately 95% of this selected healthy population.
More than two Standard Deviations indicates a level above and below in which
is found approximately 5% or less of this selected healthy population.
Then they have a diagram with a "curve" and under it says...Population
represents a highly selected group of healthy people who are the same sex
andin the same age group.
>
> By the way, Cher -- I have a question about your friend that used
> fucoidan for a cancer treatment. How many injections of fucoidan did
> she receive, and how often were they given?
> Dave
My friend with cancer died before trying the fucoidan.
I did hear another woman's testimony, she too had breast cancer. Her's
....like my friends, was quite bad, in her spine and she was mostly
bedridden. She took the fucoidan but it wasn't injections. It's a liquid
and is taken in water or juice twice a day with a meal. Within a months
time she saw improvement. Today she swears she's recovering. She lives in
Liberty, Texas. If you'd like her name I can get it to you. Just let me
know.
Cheryl
Mark Probert
Sounds just like what they told my late aunt who stopped chemo and
went on Laetrile.
Six months before she died.
GOtterBMe
"Dave, on the report itself it says....
This is the statistical logarithmic average of a very highly selected health
population.
REFERENCE RANGE: This range includes one staandard deviation above and below
the mean of this selected population.
ONE STANDARD DEVIATION above and below the mean represents approximately 68%
of this selected healthy population.
Two Standard Deviations both above and below the mean, encompasses
approximately 95% of this selected healthy population.
More than two Standard Deviations indicates a level above a"
Cher, it doesn't matter, because it's a faulty test. It doesn't matter what the
statistics say.
Mark D. Morin
That's essentially what dave said (except that the 5% for > 2sd assumes
2 tails)
regardles of this normal curve cheryl, it remains to be seen what
relation this has to ADHD.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious
convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated.
I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this
but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can
be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the
structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." -
Albert Einstein in Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by
Helen Dukas (Einstein's secretary) and Banesh Hoffman, and
published by Princeton University Press
http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm
Cher
Mark D. Morin <mdm...@NOSPAM.earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3B6242C2...@gwi.net...
Mark, it probably has no relation to ADHD. We did not receive the diagnosis
of ADHD from the folks at Pfeiffer who did the hair analysis.
We were told, ADHD, ODD and CD from the doctors prior to Pfeiffer and the
hair analysis.
Cheryl
GOtterBMe
"We did not receive the diagnosis
of ADHD from the folks at Pfeiffer who did the hair analysis.
We were told, ADHD, ODD and CD from the doctors prior to Pfeiffer and the
hair analysis.
Cheryl"
Cher, if you feel free to say so, what diagnosis did Pfeiffer give?
Mark D. Morin
> Mark, it probably has no relation to ADHD. We did not receive the diagnosis
> of ADHD from the folks at Pfeiffer who did the hair analysis.
> We were told, ADHD, ODD and CD from the doctors prior to Pfeiffer and the
> hair analysis.
> Cheryl
So, in other words, there was no point to posting the "replies from
pfeiffer?"
Everyone seems to be in agreement, there's no bearing on ADHD
nknisley
>
> Cher wrote:
>
> > Mark, it probably has no relation to ADHD. We did not receive the diagnosis
> > of ADHD from the folks at Pfeiffer who did the hair analysis.
> > We were told, ADHD, ODD and CD from the doctors prior to Pfeiffer and the
> > hair analysis.
> > Cheryl
>
> So, in other words, there was no point to posting the "replies from
> pfeiffer?"
>
> Everyone seems to be in agreement, there's no bearing on ADHD
So Cheryl, if we all agree that the hair analysis has no relationship to
ADHD, did *any* of the other tests done by Pfeiffer supposedly have any
bearing on ADHD?
Cher
nknisley <nkni...@bcpl.net> wrote in message
news:3B6335C6...@bcpl.net...
It was along time ago, but most likely not. They believed we could find
reasons for his symptoms within the chemical makeup of his brain. And in so
doing, could "treat" him more successfully. They were right...at least for
him.
Cher
Mark D. Morin <mdm...@NOSPAM.earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3B632C47...@gwi.net...
> Cher wrote:
>
> > Mark, it probably has no relation to ADHD. We did not receive the
diagnosis
> > of ADHD from the folks at Pfeiffer who did the hair analysis.
> > We were told, ADHD, ODD and CD from the doctors prior to Pfeiffer and
the
> > hair analysis.
> > Cheryl
>
> So, in other words, there was no point to posting the "replies from
> pfeiffer?"
I posted the reply from Pfeiffer because several people in the group were
under the impression that Pfeiffer had tested dog hair and had then given
human recommendations. I wrote the clinic for information pertaining to
this. According to them, Pfeiffer Treatment Center was not the clinic
involved in this. I felt it "proper" to pass their reply on.
Cheryl
Mark D. Morin
That's not quite the conclussion I remember from their response but my
memory may be faulty. What I recall them saying in your post was that
their analyses were consisent and if dog hair had been analyzed it would
have been consistent just like if animal blood had been analyzed. Didn't
sound like that they were denying having analyzed dog hair while under
the impression that it was human.
m
nknisley
So let me see if I now understand this correctly:
You went to Pfeiffer because they believed they could find a reason for
your son's behaviors "within the chemical make up of his brain."
Pfeiffer did *not* test your son for ADHD.
Pfeiffer did *not* diagnose your son with ADHD.
Pfeiffer did *not* recommend treatment for ADHD but to treat "the
chemical makeup of his brain."
You tried nutritional treatments based on what Pfeiffer told you about
"the chemical makeup of his brain"--*not* because Pfeiffer told you it
could treat ADHD.
The nutritional supplements did, in fact, work like Pfeiffer claimed.
IOW, it made a change in your son's behavior.
Do I have those facts right so far?
If so, I have to wonder:
Since your son's behavior was, according to Pfeiffer, could be traced to
"the chemical makeup of his brain"
AND Pfeiffer was only treating "the chemical makeup of his brain";
AND Pfeiffer was NOT treating ADHD;
AND the nutritional supplements were not recommended to treat ADHD;
AND your son did not take the nutritional supplements to treat ADHD;
WHY do you keep claiming that the supplements your son takes helped his