Where to draw the medicine line?
Paul Adams
It's my conclusion that the hyperactivity of children falls into a
standard bell curve. For example:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
|-------------------------------------------------------|
Sedantary Active
I don't think you could say that the majority of kids fall into the
middle of the above bar. There are a few on the sedentary end (1) and a
few on the active end (8). At various places in between you'll find all
the other kids. Some are 3's, some 6', and some 7's. Where do we draw
the line that says a child needs meds? at 6? What about a kids that's
a 5.5? If that's ok, what about a 5? 4.5? Are we attempting to make
all kids fit into what we call "normal"? Just what is "normal"? To me,
a 6 could be normal, to my son, maybe it's a 7...to you it could be a
3. There is nothing known as NORMAL. We must get this out of our
heads. Some kids learn math best with manipulatives, others with wrote
memorization. Some learn science best by learning the facts, others
must experiment to learn best. What is normal?
This is the problem with our overcrowded schools. In years gone by
(many years) kids were taught in small groups at home or at church.
This worked best because you could taylor the teaching to the child.
Today, we have 30, 40, or even 50 kids to 1 teacher. The kids that fall
on the upper end of my scale distrupt this large unstable group too much
and are medicated to "make them fit in" to the norm. But, what are the
long term effects of these meds? I don't mean 10 or 15 years...I'm
talking about when they are 50 or 60 years old. What does it do to
their natural desire to step out from the crowd. I'm talking about the
natural tendancy of these kids to become entrepurnuers and create jobs
for the "normal" kids. Are our schools working to create the perfect
"working class" of people?
We MUST stop looking at ADD as an abnormal problem and start looking at
the ASSETS these children possess. We must nurture the talents of this
highly creative group. These thinkers who don't except the status qou
as an answer. We must teach them to focus their tremendous amount of
energy into something productive.
Our schools can't do it...I wouldn't expect them to, there is too large
a group for them to work with. We must do this at home. Maybe we
should start private schools that taylor the learning to ADD kids...much
like Montesouri.
I admit my son dosn't fall into the "average" catagory. He doesn't
focus his attention as well, just talk to him sometime and see how many
topics he can cover in a 5 minute period. He does have a hard time
understanding the scope of everything around him. He's does spill a
drink at least 3-5 times a week. But, is this cause for putting him on
hard drugs? Sure, he was easier to handle when the meds were working,
but what did they take away from him? Did we want "easier to handle" so
he could fit into OUR schedule? Did we want this so we would have it
easier? Is that what America is looking for, "the easy answer"?
Did God make a mistake with these kids, or do we not understand His
wisdom in giving these kids to the world?
Let's stop for a moment and think of the GOOD things about having an ADD
kid. He/she is probably going to be a natural leader if you let him.
Most of these kids become problem adolecents because of years of being
told that they are HYPER, OUT OF CONTROL, A FAILURE, and many more self
esteem destroyers. We do this because we've created such a hectic life
attempting to keep up with the Jones, we don't have the time for a kid
who needs a lot of attention. It's easier if we medicate our kids
because we can then have a consistant babysitter when we go out. We can
then sit and watch the "boob-tube" without having to constantly stop to
discipline our kid. So many other situations where we need a "normal"
kid so we can enjoy OUR time. I wonder if there is a double meaning the
the phrase "Attention Deficit Disorder"? Do they not have enough
attention? Or do we not GIVE them enough attention?
We must stop telling these kids that they won't fit into the adult world
and start telling them that they "will be their own person in the adult
world". We must stop telling them that they are nothing but trouble and
start telling them that that they can achieve ANYTHING they focus on.
Give them a reason to focus. ADD kids respond well to reward systems,
nurture that, and teach them about the rewards of working smart. Teach
them the difference between the "normal" kids and those special kids
like them. The "normal" ones will probably end up working FOR the ADD
kids. Who do you think will reap the bigger reward?
If you agree with these (probably not all) thoughts, let me know. I
don't know if there is a discussion group for people who see the
positives of ADD. Sometimes this group can be a real downer. What
about a Usenet called alt.support.add.nomeds? Let's not force these
"hunters" into the "gatherers" world. Let take what they have and build
on it. All children need molding to refine what they have...but must
they all be molded into a "4"? Let's discuss this....
Regards,
--
Paul Adams
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
LOOKING TO START AN ONLINE BUSINESS?
Don't know where to go?
Look here >> http://www.cyber-action.com/oed/onlinebiz.html
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Dave Borowski
Well, the US spends billions(I guess) on Ritilin, therapy etc., to overcome this problem, so I would imagine
they feel that the talents of this creative group is hard to find under all the jumpin' around, spillin' stuff
etc.
>
> Our schools can't do it...I wouldn't expect them to, there is too large
> a group for them to work with. We must do this at home. Maybe we
> should start private schools that taylor the learning to ADD kids...much
> like Montesouri.
I don't know if the unstructured Montessori method would work very weel for the typical ADHD kid. Their all
schools, however, that do cater to ADHD special needs. They are unfortunatley usuall expensive.
>
> I admit my son dosn't fall into the "average" catagory. He doesn't
> focus his attention as well, just talk to him sometime and see how many
> topics he can cover in a 5 minute period. He does have a hard time
> understanding the scope of everything around him. He's does spill a
> drink at least 3-5 times a week. But, is this cause for putting him on
> hard drugs? Sure, he was easier to handle when the meds were working,
> but what did they take away from him? Did we want "easier to handle" so
> he could fit into OUR schedule? Did we want this so we would have it
> easier? Is that what America is looking for, "the easy answer"?
It worked for you and that's great, but many here have exhausted themselves and their bankbooks trying to help
their kids and if meds work then so be it. Hopefully they'll find a cure or a more benign treatment ythen Rit,
but Rit and its ilk are all we have right now.
>
> Did God make a mistake with these kids, or do we not understand His
> wisdom in giving these kids to the world?
>
> Let's stop for a moment and think of the GOOD things about having an ADD
> kid. He/she is probably going to be a natural leader if you let him.
Yeah, but generally they monopolize the time and attention of others around them and instead of leading they
piss people off.
> Most of these kids become problem adolecents because of years of being
> told that they are HYPER, OUT OF CONTROL, A FAILURE, and many more self
> esteem destroyers.
Good parents wouldn't do this,
We do this because we've created such a hectic life
> attempting to keep up with the Jones, we don't have the time for a kid
> who needs a lot of attention. It's easier if we medicate our kids
> because we can then have a consistant babysitter when we go out. We can
> then sit and watch the "boob-tube" without having to constantly stop to
> discipline our kid. So many other situations where we need a "normal"
> kid so we can enjoy OUR time. I wonder if there is a double meaning the
> the phrase "Attention Deficit Disorder"? Do they not have enough
> attention? Or do we not GIVE them enough attention?
I'm sure some parents do medicate to get a break, but I think most do it as a last ditch attempt to give there
kids a chance at success.
>
> We must stop telling these kids that they won't fit into the adult world
> and start telling them that they "will be their own person in the adult
> world". We must stop telling them that they are nothing but trouble and
> start telling them that that they can achieve ANYTHING they focus on.
> Give them a reason to focus. ADD kids respond well to reward systems,
> nurture that, and teach them about the rewards of working smart.
Some respond to rewards some don't. That's too simple.
Teach
> them the difference between the "normal" kids and those special kids
> like them. The "normal" ones will probably end up working FOR the ADD
> kids. Who do you think will reap the bigger reward?
I would like to believe that too, but there's no evidence.
>
> If you agree with these (probably not all) thoughts, let me know. I
> don't know if there is a discussion group for people who see the
> positives of ADD. Sometimes this group can be a real downer. What
> about a Usenet called alt.support.add.nomeds? Let's not force these
> "hunters" into the "gatherers" world. Let take what they have and build
> on it. All children need molding to refine what they have...but must
> they all be molded into a "4"? Let's discuss this....
I think we can fit all persuasions here. If you feel strongly about that group, then by all means start it.
Just remember, most parents are just trying to do the best for their children, they fight with the schools for
acceptance and accomadtions while trying to balance work and a life. It's tough and sometimes all that's left
may seem the most undesirable, but "walk a mile in my shoes."
Starseed47
In article <34722F...@erols.com>, Dave Borowski <boro...@erols.com>
writes:
Paul Adams wrote:
>> Most of these kids become problem adolecents because of
>> years of being told that they are HYPER, OUT OF CONTROL,
>>A FAILURE, and many more self esteem destroyers.
>Good parents wouldn't do this,
It's not necessarily the parents doing this ... it's the principals,
vice-principals, teachers, Joe-Blow and Susie Creamcheese ...
society that picks away bit by bit ... my son tried to explain
to one of his teachers today that he has ADD ... "Don't use
that as an excuse." This was the first teacher he was going
to talk to about it ... great reply from her. The guidance counselor
has still not returned the Connors eval forms to me ... 2-1/2
weeks later .. her response when I brought them in .. "Isn't he
too old for medication?" She never had a problem telling me
my son was having a problem .. he's frustrated with her because
"all she does is gossip like an office worker." And it's true ... I
think she is in ADD denial herself. In the 10 minutes I had
with her she jumped up five times to check on the intern who
was answering the phone ... and he was doing fine. Then she
gossiped about the other parents to him in front of me <he
didn't buy into it, so at least there's someone coming into
the system who's kewl>.
When my son was in sixth grade, I ended up pulling him out
of school because of the adminstration in the school wherehe was
going. Principal during first conference <where they speak
TO you not WITH you> .. to Joshua: "If you need some kind
of psychological help, you can just forget it because we don't
have any help for you here." This story is involved .. I won't
go into it too much .... the VP began calling my son a "liar"
because he was forgetting things .. he was given a drug
counselor, as he was caught with a "controlled substance",
which was White Out, and his pupils were dilated <he gets
this way when he gets "charged" ... they were on him all the
time .. he spent more time suspended than he did in school
and then he was "failing" .. he wasn't allowed to make up his
work. It wouldn't have made much difference .. it was then
he started writing so small even a fairy wouldn't be able to
read it.
At the end of being chewed out at the first "conference", I asked
the principal if my son might see a counselor, as he had requested
to speak to one at the end of his fifth grade year and there "never
was time." He said, "I'm afraid not, she's too busy and not
feeling well." I told him I wanted to know who could help us ...
I mentioned someone's name with the EEOC .. he left and came
back a few minutes later saying the counselor would see us.
We went in and met with her .... she was great. She was not too
fond of the principal either. She informed me of the ADA and told
me it would be a good idea to try Ritalin again and to sign a form
stating he was ADD .. that this would help. I did this .. then the
teacher's weren't letting him go to get his medicine. The nurse
was frustrated and called me .. she sent me a note that I had
laminated for him to show the teachers ... she said if they refused,
to leave anyway and let her know about it. Then, there was
the special education .. the principal said, no we don't have anything
to help him .. he can't be switched .. I never could get back into
the same counselor .. they intercepted me every time.
I finally pulled him out, because he was failing and the principal
was now accusing him of being prejudice because he
claimed Josh's best friend's dad was a member of the KKK <the
principal was black> .... I finally took him out of school. The other
school he could have gone to was horrible, and I wouldn't send him
their either. BTW .. my son has never been close to being predjudice.
In fact, he generally hangs around with kids from other countries
or other colors <his friends are a rainbow> because he says
they're "more interesting".
Anyway ... it's not necessarily the parents that slam our
kids self-esteem. They often have to deal with plenty of adults
out there on a day to day basis who do a fine job.
Wheewwwww .. sorry for the blast, but I do feel better having
spewed out this little tiny chunk of resentment. ;o)
Ruth
San Diego
@-------->>>------
"We are made strong by what we overcome."
~ John Burroughs
John Palmer
On Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:19:45 -0800, Paul Adams <pad...@adnc.com>
wrote:
>It's my conclusion that the hyperactivity of children falls into a
>standard bell curve. For example:
>1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
>|-------------------------------------------------------|
>Sedantary Active
>
Hyperactivity isn't about "active vs. sedentary". Hyperactivity
is about the ability to control activity levels. Two children can be
equally "active", and only one of them might find a *NEED* to keep
moving.
>I don't think you could say that the majority of kids fall into the
>middle of the above bar. There are a few on the sedentary end (1) and a
>few on the active end (8). At various places in between you'll find all
>the other kids. Some are 3's, some 6', and some 7's. Where do we draw
>the line that says a child needs meds?
At the point that the child shows a need for them. . . rather
than trying to use a tight fitting categorization. As a "quiet
ADDer", I would be ignored completely on your scale, yet as a child,
it could be argued that I was more harmed by a lack of ADD treatment
than a bouncy, rambunctious child would have been.
> at 6? What about a kids that's
>a 5.5? If that's ok, what about a 5? 4.5? Are we attempting to make
>all kids fit into what we call "normal"?
Not anyone that I know of. . .
>Just what is "normal"? To me,
>a 6 could be normal, to my son, maybe it's a 7...to you it could be a
>3. There is nothing known as NORMAL. We must get this out of our
>heads.
Do you have a habit of telling people what they must do when you
don't know if they have a problem or not? This is almost as bad as
the "have you stopped beating your wife yet?" question.
>The kids that fall
>on the upper end of my scale distrupt this large unstable group too much
>and are medicated to "make them fit in" to the norm.
Bullshit. If you've seen this happen, alert the proper
authorities and take action against it; don't whine in a newsgroup.
SINCE you haven't, quit assuming it happens until you have some reason
other than your imagination to say it does.
>We MUST stop looking at ADD as an abnormal problem and start looking at
>the ASSETS these children possess.
YES! And if those children are suffering from numerous problems
due to their inability to control their ADD, let's LET THEM SUFFER!
That way we can praise our wonderful "nondrug" approach and mourn
their noble sacrifices!
> But, is this cause for putting him on
>hard drugs?
If your child had a fever, would it be cause to give him
potentially lethal drugs, like, say, tylenol?
> Sure, he was easier to handle when the meds were working,
>but what did they take away from him? Did we want "easier to handle" so
>he could fit into OUR schedule? Did we want this so we would have it
>easier? Is that what America is looking for, "the easy answer"?
I can't speak for America; I can speak for myself and the others
I've seen in this newsgroup. The answer for everyone I've seen (minus
the trolls) is that they want what's best for their children (if their
children are the ones suffering from ADD) or themselves (if THEY are
the ones suffering from ADD).
>Did God make a mistake with these kids, or do we not understand His
>wisdom in giving these kids to the world?
A person with one arm is often much more adaptable than a person
with two; does this mean that having only one arm can't be a problem?
>Let's stop for a moment and think of the GOOD things about having an ADD
>kid. He/she is probably going to be a natural leader if you let him.
*ASSUMING* s/he can learn the proper methods of picking up on
social cues, and not alienating everyone. And *ASSUMING* s/he can
learn to communicate ideas that others can understand. And *ASSUMING*
s/he can learn what s/he needs, even when bored or thinking that the
material is "stupid".
>Most of these kids become problem adolecents because of years of being
>told that they are HYPER, OUT OF CONTROL, A FAILURE, and many more self
>esteem destroyers.
Or, perhaps, upon feeling that way *WITHOUT EVER HAVING BEEN
TOLD*, because they recognize the difference in themselves, while
parents insist that they're NOT that different. . .
> We do this because we've created such a hectic life
>attempting to keep up with the Jones, we don't have the time for a kid
>who needs a lot of attention.
Speak for yourself. If you've got residual guilt to work off,
do it without accusing others of having your failings.
>We must stop telling these kids that they won't fit into the adult world
>and start telling them that they "will be their own person in the adult
>world".
Yeah; and if they end up having troubles with depression,
fatigue, anxiety, and an inability to deal with their peers, if they
end up blowing their brains out to stop the constant chattering that
keeps them from ever having a moment's peace, if they engage in risky
behaviors due to the need for stimulation,
At least we didn't give them DRUGS!
> We must stop telling them that they are nothing but trouble and
>start telling them that that they can achieve ANYTHING they focus on.
Assuming they can focus on something. . .
>Give them a reason to focus.
Pfeh. Yeah, right, that's the problem. ADDers don't have
problems paying attention, they just don't have enough reason. Did
you bother learning anything about the subject before starting your
rant?
> The "normal" ones will probably end up working FOR the ADD
>kids.
You mean like the friend I have who's dying of AIDS he got from a
dirty needle that he used to shoot up to quiet the screaming in his
brain? *HE* never got treatment because all he needed was someone to
take charge and show him the way. All the doctors agreed.
>
>If you agree with these (probably not all) thoughts, let me know. I
>don't know if there is a discussion group for people who see the
>positives of ADD.
Lots of people do; sometimes they can speak without making nasty
assumptions about what other people do, and they don't pretend that no
one ever needs treatment.
Ann
Paul Adams <pad...@adnc.com> expounded:
>Did God make a mistake with these kids, or do we not understand His
>wisdom in giving these kids to the world?
I agree with 95% of what you have written, it's what I've been
thinking for a long time. They call ADHD a disorder, but I don't
believe it for one minute. As for the schools, they don't want to
deal with all the various ways kids learn, they want them all to fit
into a nice neat norm. Anything that deviates is 'special needs'.
--
Ann
ann...@thecia.net
Lala038
PAUL I AGREE WITH YOU MY SON HAS ADHD AND I AM GOING OUT OF MY MIND NOT BECAUSE
OF HIM BUT BE CAUSE OF THE SCHOOL AND TEACHERS AND FAMILY HE IS ON WAS ON
RITTLIAN THAN THEY TRIED ADDERAL. THINGS SEEM A LITTLE BETTER BUT HE SEEMS TO
HAVE A PROBLEM WITH TEACHERS WHO HE SENCE DONT LIKE HIM. HE'LL GIVE THEM NO
RESPECT BACK. SO NOW THE DR. TELLING ME HE HAS SOMETHING ELSE GOING ON LIKE
SOME KIND OF DIFINACE PROBLEM. MAY THING IS HIS PRETTY FINE IF HE KNOWS YOU
LIKE HIM AND RESPECT HIM HE HAS A PROBLEM WITH PEOPLE WHO DONT RESPECT HIM.
AND BECAUSE HIS A KID IT LOOKS DESRECTFUL BUT SOMETIMES I WONDER ABOUT TEACHERS
MAYBE THEY NEED TO DO A LITTLE RESEARCH ON HOW TO DEAL WITH THESE TYPE OF
CHILDREN. I HAVE ADHD MYSELF ALL MY LIFE AND NEVER KNEW IT AND I MANAGED FOR
MYSELF ALTHOUGH IT WAS HARD. I'M TRYING TO AVOID THE SAME PROBLEMS I HAD AND
TRY FOR MY SON TO NOT HAVE THEM. KNOW THERE TA.LKING ABOUT PUTTING HIM ON SSR
WITH THE ADDERAL I AM VERY DEPRESS ABOUT THIS AND DONT KNOW WHERE AND WHAT TO
DO ANYMORE HIS 13 AND HIS ATTUITUDE IS IM USE TO GETTING YELLED AT. I FEAR
SCHOOL IS GOING TO PUSH RIGHT OUT THE DOOR. THERE ALREADY COMPLAINTING THAT HE
NEEDS TO STOP TAKING UP TO MUCH OF THERE TIME. SO NOW I HAVE TO LOOK INTO A
PRIVATE SCHOOL. BECAUSE IF I DONT THERE GOING TO TRY TO PUT HIM IN HOME STUDY.
BILLY NEEDS FRIENDS AND ACTIVITY HE DOES NOT NEED ME 24 HOURS A DAY . IM SORRY
I AM RUNNING ON AND ON, BUT THATS HOW MY ,MIND FEELS RIGHT NOW. I AGREE I
THINK THEY STOP THE MED. AS AN EXCUSE AND LISTEN TO THE PARENT AND LEARN HOW TO
DEAL WITH IT IN STEAD ITS EASY TO GIVE THEM MED. AND THEY DONT HAVE TO DEAL
WITH . WELL IM KNEW ONLINE SO I HOPE IM DOING THIS WRIGHT IF YOU NEED TO REPLY
TO ME AM AT LALA038 THANKS PAUL LOOKING FORWARD TO HEAR FROM YOU. SEE YA LATER
Ann
jpal...@ix.netcom.com (John Palmer) expounded:
>>The kids that fall
>>on the upper end of my scale distrupt this large unstable group too much
>>and are medicated to "make them fit in" to the norm.
>
> Bullshit. If you've seen this happen, alert the proper
>authorities and take action against it; don't whine in a newsgroup.
>SINCE you haven't, quit assuming it happens until you have some reason
>other than your imagination to say it does.
Bullshit yourself, John, it happens daily in thousands of schools
across this country. Do you have any kids? Are they ADHD? Have you
dealt with a myopic, single minded school system who strongly
encouraged medication for your ADHD child? Ostensibly to help your
child function in the school system but ultimately to make it easier
for them to teach your child their way? If you have, then you, of
course, have your own experiences to draw on, and your own conclusions
to draw. I've drawn mine, also. I fight battles I think I can win,
and I know, after 11 years in this school system, I am not going to
win. So I have my kids tutored when they need it, and just help them
get along in school as best they can.
Remember, I have two medicated children. I do question, however, the
need for medication in the schools, I believe the need wouldn't be so
great if they had adaptive programs for ADHD children...or any child
that doesn't fit the norm. And I don't mean special ed, either. They
are trying to teach everyone the same way, and it isn't working.
Most of the ADHD kids I know are very bright, if not brilliant, their
curiosity and spontaneity is squelched by the rigid schooling they
receive. It's a shame.
--
Ann
ann...@thecia.net
William R. Penrose
They call ADHD a disorder, but I don't
>believe it for one minute. As for the schools, they don't want to
>deal with all the various ways kids learn, they want them all to fit
>into a nice neat norm. Anything that deviates is 'special needs'.
My son was severe ADHD and responded to Ritalin by becoming a zombie. We put
him on the Feingold diet (now discredited and reviled far and wide) and a huge
weight was lifted from us. Now he is successful, non-ADHD, and married, and
one of his own children showed the early signs. We put him on the diet and he
is now behaving normally.
However, some school social worker read his medical file and called my son
with the news that his son would not be allowed into kindergarten unless he
was put on Ritalin. My son went ballistic and is girding himself to go to the
mat with the school on this issue.
I have had enough contact with psychologists to conclude that the entire
profession is a pseudoscience. Their time is spent making up illnesses and
then charging to treat them -- witness recovered memory 'therapy', the DSM-IV,
and Ritalin treatment.
Below is a long post I made here about a year ago.
Bill
============================================================
SUMMARY OF FINDINGS ABOUT THE "FEINGOLD DIET"
FOR TREATING ADD AND ADHD
Since asking the question "What are the goods on the Feingold diet
today?" in this ng several weeks ago, and getting mostly
unsatisfactory answers, I have been researching the subject myself.
Here, in Q&A form, are my preliminary results. Some of the sources
I am still trying to locate. I'll refine this as I get more info.
Comments are welcome (of course).
Thanks to John Zuckerman (Indiana University) and Matt Cornell for
giving me starting points.
Index:
Q. Who am I and what business have I got here?
Q. What is the Feingold diet?
Q. Where can I find out about it?
Q. Every professional is down on the Feingold diet. How come?
Q. What else should I watch out for?
==========================================================
Q. Who am I and what business have I got here?
A. I am a professional chemist, and not a psychologist, social
worker, or psychiatrist, which is to say that I am not qualified to
discuss this subject. But I will anyway. My wife and I raised
three children, one of whom displayed the signs of ADHD beginning
at age 3. In 1972, ADHD was known as "rotten kid" and "negligent
parents". School was a problem from day one -- teachers
complained; he was forever getting beat up; the whole nine yards.
It was years before it dawned on us that there was something more
to #2 son's condition. The usual mechanisms of reward and
punishment that socialize other children just didn't work on him.
So when a doctor finally gave a name to his condition, we were
relieved. We assumed that if the medical profession can name a
disease, it can cure it.
We were wrong, of course. Our son saw several doctors, each
of whom had a different treatment. It took a while before we
realized that they had no idea how to deal with ADHD and were just
experimenting. They fed him antidepressants and Ritalin. They put
him into a hospital for eight weeks for "behavioral modification"
training. We tried close supervision, where I stood over him every
night while he fussed, cried and whined and did everything but his
homework. (He never did finish it.) I made him copy pages from
novels to develop a longer attention span by sheer practice. Our
lives and those of our other two children revolved around #2 son
and his condition. His brother and sister resented the attention
he was getting and developed their own problems in response.
Ultimately (mid-'70's), we heard of the Feingold diet and
bought the book. It was quite a chore putting it into practice,
with a lot of trial and error. We lived in Newfoundland, Canada,
at the time and many of the foods he could eat were hard to get.
But it revolutionized our lives. It did not relieve all of the
symptoms, but the change was like being let out of prison. We were
able to leave him with baby sitters and go out once in a while. If
we heard a child cry out on the street, we no longer assumed that
he was being beaten up again.
Today, he is stable and has a family of his own. His son, 3,
appears to have the condition and has responded dramatically to the
diet.
Q. What is the Feingold diet?
The Feingold diet makes no logical sense. At first
impression, it is just another goofy New Age marketing ploy, like
organic vegetables. Fundamentally, the Feingold Diet eliminates
natural salicylates, artificial food colorings, and other additives
from the diet. Sounds easy, but it's not. These sneaky little
molecules are found everywhere, even in the traditionally healthy
foods like oranges and apples.
Step 1: Eliminate all foods with artificial colors or flavors,
malt, caramel, BHT, and BHA. BHT and BHA are the sneakiest because
they might be used in the wrapping paper or packaging and not shown
on the list of ingredients. Most children's medicines contain
artificial colors and flavors.
Eliminate almonds, apples, cider, apricots, all berries,
cherries, cloves, coffee, cucumbers, pickles, currants, grapes,
raisins, green peppers, chilis, nectarines, oranges, peaches,
plums, prunes, tangerines, tea, tomatos, and mint flavor (Oil of
Wintergreen).
In the beginning, a trip to the supermarket is an exercise in
eyestrain, because you find yourself reading labels all the time.
In time, you can develop lists of acceptable foods. It is such a
chore keeping up with the diet that you are better off putting the
whole family on it than cooking a separate complex menu for one
child. (To tell the truth, everybody felt better on the diet!)
Q. Where can I find out about it?
A. Information on the Feingold diet is getting harder to find.
Benjamin Feingold published the seminal book, Why Your Child Is
Hyperactive, (Random House) in 1975. It is still in print, and
many public libraries still have copies. He and his wife Helen
followed up with The Feingold Cookbook in 1979. This one is out of
print. The copy in our public library is well worn.
The Feingold Foundation can be found at www.feingold.org.
They sell a membership package at $55 that may have dietary
information in it, but I have not investigated that.
Q. How do I put it into action?
A. Grit your teeth and dig in. Be resolute about the diet for
the first two weeks. It is important to track down all sources of
the offending substances, however insignificant. For instance,
those tiny daily vitamin tablets don't seem like much, but there's
enough food coloring in them to turn the Buddha into Charles
Manson.
It is especially important to cut off all sources of
contraband. The sources hardest to control are well-meaning
relatives ("Oh, come on, how can a piece of *my* apple pie hurt the
boy?") and friends at school bearing candy and chewing gum. The
best time to try the diet is during summer recess from school.
Ultimately, the child will feel the benefits of the diet and become
more cooperative.
If your child is responsive, you will see a difference within
the two weeks. After the diet is established, you can experiment.
For example, we found that the normally forbidden coffee greatly
improved our son's behavior. A cup before going to school and
another before doing homework seemed to get him focussed.
Q. Every professional is down on the Feingold diet. How come?
A. Beats me, except that psychs (psychologists and psychiatrists)
thrive on fads and fashions. Two years ago it was fashionable to
blame all emotional problems on repressed memories of childhood
sexual abuse, and many families were destroyed by predatory psychs.
(Now it appears that there never was any scientific evidence for
the repressed memory phenomenon.) Well, when I inquired on this
newsgroup about the Feingold diet, I was told by several persons
that it had been totally discredited. Finally, I was given some
literature references to get started with, and I have been
collecting reports on the original studies for several weeks now.
Here is the (incomplete) summary in a nutshell:
Most studies show *some* effect of the diet, but the study
designs are flawed. Many were done by asking families to put their
children on the diet and to score the behavior according to the
contemporary definition of ADHD, such as the DSM-III criteria.
There is no good way to monitor compliance by the parents or
cheating by the children. Later, "challenge" studies were done in
which children were placed on the diet, and then, unknown to them,
their food was contaminated with a food coloring or other forbidden
substance. Several of these studies were done, and the results
were mixed; some supported the Feingold diet, others did not.
Given the subjective nature of the condition and the prior biases
of some of the experimenters, this is not surprising. But nearly
every study recognized that some people were extra-strong
responders. These kids were essentially normal when on the diet
and turned into troglodytes when food colors were added to the
diet.
Several reviews and summaries of these experiments have been
written. The most balanced is that of C.K. Conner (Feeding the
Brain, Plenum Press, 1990), who describes each of the experiments
and the possible flaws in each. His overall conclusion is that the
diet works for some kids and not for others. R.A. Barkley's
authoritative work (Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder: A
Handbook for Diagnosis and Treatment, Guilford, 1990) dismisses the
Feingold diet with a sneer as just one more in a long list of silly
fads. The Feingold Association web site (www.feingold.org) veers
too far in the other direction. They cite a long list of
scientific studies, with quotations removed from context to make it
appear that each study supports the Feingold approach.
A frequent comment from professionals is that "if the child
responds to diet changes, then it isn't ADHD". Well, excuse me,
but if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a
duck, I still think it's a duck. Our son was a perfect match for
ADHD in the DSM-III (the bible of the psych industry).
Q. What place does the Feingold diet have in ADHD treatment?
A. There is no question that the diet does *not* work for
everyone. In fact, there is doubt that ADHD is only a single
condition, and there are those who dispute the existence of ADHD
altogether. R. Smelter et al. (Is attention deficit disorder
becoming a desired diagnosis?, Phi Beta Kappan, Feb. 1996, Vol. 77,
p. 429) believe that ADHD is just a fashionable diagnosis and an
excuse for bad parenting, i.e., the same attitude that my wife and
I met in the 1970's. Clearly, these "experts" have never really
lived 24 hours a day with an ADHD child.
The Feingold diet has the advantage that you can, indeed, "try
this at home". You don't need the approval of a doctor or a psych
to do it. But it is a *lot* of work.
Ritalin is known to work for some persons, but it has to be
monitored carefully by doctor *and* parents. It made our son feel
dreadful and depressed; ultimately he hid the pills in his mouth
and spit them out later. Ritalin is working if the child's
behavior and school work both improve. Don't confuse a quiet house
with an effective treatment. And if the drug isn't working, don't
let your doctor bully you into using it anyway.
Don't dismiss Ritalin treatment because you are "anti-drug".
You wouldn't deny your child insulin if he or she needed it. Just
make sure it really works.
There are a host of psychiatric and psychological approaches
to ADHD treatment. I'm out of touch with progress in this area.
(The cost of therapy treatment may be one reason why the profession
discourages cheap approaches like the Feingold diet.)
Q. What else should I watch out for?
Everyone is accustomed to your child's ADHD behavior. For
relatives, teachers, and schoolmates, the new "Feingold" child
will seem like a stranger to them. They will continue to treat
him as if he were still a behavior problem. Kids and relatives
will continue to blame him for everything. We received a call
from school about our son's misbehavior on a day when he was
home sick!
His friends may change, and probably should. While in ADHD
mode, he will tend to associate with kids who also have behavior
problems. If he does not find new friends, his new, "real" self
may be drawn into bad behavior patterns.
************************************************************
If you work with gases or gas instruments, call or email for
information on the Model 1010 Precision Diluter/Calibrator.
************************************************************
Bill Penrose, President, Custom Sensor Solutions, Inc.
526 West Franklin Avenue, Naperville IL 60540, USA
630-548-3548, fax 630-369-9618, email wpen...@interaccess.com
************************************************************
Purveyors of contract R&D and product development to this
and nearby galaxies.
************************************************************
John Palmer
On Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:55:34 GMT, ann...@thecia.net (Ann) wrote:
>jpal...@ix.netcom.com (John Palmer) expounded:
>
>>>The kids that fall
>>>on the upper end of my scale distrupt this large unstable group too much
>>>and are medicated to "make them fit in" to the norm.
>>
>> Bullshit. If you've seen this happen, alert the proper
>>authorities and take action against it; don't whine in a newsgroup.
>>SINCE you haven't, quit assuming it happens until you have some reason
>>other than your imagination to say it does.
>
>Bullshit yourself, John, it happens daily in thousands of schools
>across this country.
If you can find evidence of active, rambunctious kids being
drugged solely to make them "fit the norm", you have one hell of a
case for child abuse.
If you *KNOW* it is happening, and don't merely suspect it, or
feel that it 'would' happen, then you have more productive avenues to
pursue than a non-politically-connected newsgroup.
> Do you have any kids? Are they ADHD? Have you
>dealt with a myopic, single minded school system who strongly
>encouraged medication for your ADHD child?
No. Does a "strong encouragement" cause your child to suddenly
become medicated, or does that require that the parent take action?
> Ostensibly to help your
>child function in the school system but ultimately to make it easier
>for them to teach your child their way?
I believe that this happens; I believe that it happens often
enough to be a problem. What I *DO NOT* believe is the statement that
I objected to: that children who are active are drugged to make them
fit the norm.
And I say again: if you can find that happening, there are better
things to do than whine in a newsgroup.
>
>Remember, I have two medicated children. I do question, however, the
>need for medication in the schools, I believe the need wouldn't be so
>great if they had adaptive programs for ADHD children...or any child
>that doesn't fit the norm.
If you're saying "A child who might need stronger medication to
be able to focus might need less, or a weaker medication, to focus, if
the schools changed", I agree, though I'm not sure that this is a
major issue. If you're saying "the schools could eliminate the need
form medication", I disagree strongly.
--
"Everything I needed to know in life, I learned in
kidnergarten. Like: morality must exist beyond the
purview of a deity if morality is to have a meaning
beyond tyranny.
MarkProbe
In article <19971120074...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, stars...@aol.com
(Starseed47) writes:
>>> Most of these kids become problem adolecents because of
>> years of being told that they are HYPER, OUT OF CONTROL,
>>A FAILURE, and many more self esteem destroyers.
>Good parents wouldn't do this,
An excellent point. Now you identify the real problems:
>It's not necessarily the parents doing this ... it's the principals,
>vice-principals, teachers, Joe-Blow and Susie Creamcheese ...
>society that picks away bit by bit ... my son tried to explain
>to one of his teachers today that he has ADD ... "Don't
>use that as an excuse." This was the first teacher he was going
>to talk to about it ... great reply from her.
This is far too typical of an occurrence. So many teachers are clueless about
ADHD and how it affects the child in the classroom.
The guidance counselor
>has still not returned the Connors eval forms to me ... 2-1/2
>weeks later .. her response when I brought them in .. "Isn't he
>too old for medication?" She never had a problem telling me
>my son was having a problem .. he's frustrated with her
>because "all she does is gossip like an office worker." And it's true ...
>I think she is in ADD denial herself. In the 10 minutes I had
>with her she jumped up five times to check on the intern who
>was answering the phone ..and he was doing fine. Then she
>gossiped about the other parents to him in front of me <he
>didn't buy into it, so at least there's someone coming into
>the system who's kewl>.
Probably won't get a job.
>When my son was in sixth grade, I ended up pulling him out
>of school because of the adminstration in the school wherehe
>was going. Principal during first conference <where they speak
>TO you not WITH you .. to Joshua: "If you need some kind
>of psychological help, you can just forget it because we don't
>have any help for you here."
Counseling, as a service, should be written into the IEP. Then the school has
to go find it.
This story is involved .. I won't
>go into it too much .... the VP began calling my son a "liar"
>because he was forgetting things .. he was given a drug
>counselor, as he was caught with a "controlled substance",
>which was White Out, and his pupils were dilated <he gets
>this way when he gets "charged" ... they were on
>him all the time .. he spent more time suspended than he did in school
>and then he was "failing" .. he wasn't allowed to make up his
>work. It wouldn't have made much difference .. it was then
>he started writing so small even a fairy wouldn't be able to
>read it.
Did your son have an IEP?
>At the end of being chewed out at the first "conference", I asked
>the principal if my son might see a counselor, as he had requested
>to speak to one at the end of his fifth grade year and there "never
>was time." He said, "I'm afraid not, she's too busy and not
>feeling well." I told him I wanted to know who could help us ...
>I mentioned someone's name with the EEOC .. he left and came
>back a few minutes later saying the counselor would see us.
They just hate it when you bring in an outsider. That means that they have to
do something.
>We went in and met with her ....she was great. She was not too
>fond of the principal either. She informed me of the ADA and told
>me it would be a good idea to try Ritalin again and to sign a form
>stating he was ADD .. that this would help. I did this .. then
>the teacher's weren't letting him go to get his medicine.
That violates the Rehab Act.
The nurse
>was frustrated and called me .. she sent me a note that I had
>laminated for him to show the teachers ... she said if they refused,
>to leave anyway and let her know about it.
I assume that this worked.
Then, there was
>the special education .. the principal said, no we don't have anything
>to help him .. he can't be switched .. I never could get back into
>the same counselor .. they intercepted me every time.
A 504 plan or IEP would have given you access to the counselor.
>I finally pulled him out, because he was failing and the principal
>was now accusing him of being prejudice because he
>claimed Josh's best friend's dad was a member of the KKK <the
>principal was black> ....
Guilt by association.
I finally took him out of school. The other
>school he could have gone to was horrible, and I wouldn't send him
>their either. BTW .. my son has never been close to being predjudice.
>In fact, he generally hangs around with kids from other countries
>or other colors <his friends are a rainbow> because he says
>they're "more interesting".
My Josh is very similar.
>Anyway ... it's not necessarily the parents that slam our
>kids self-esteem. They often have to deal with plenty of
>adults out there on a day to day basis who do a fine job.
Absolutely.
MarkProbe
>>>The kids that fall
>>on the upper end of my scale distrupt this large
>unstable group too much
>>and are medicated to "make them fit in" to the
>norm.
>
> Bullshit. If you've seen this happen, alert the
>proper
>authorities and take action against it; don't whine in a
>newsgroup.
>SINCE you haven't, quit assuming it happens until you have some
>reason
>other than your imagination to say it does.
Bullshit yourself, John,
>it happens daily in thousands of schools
across this country. Do you have
>any kids? Are they ADHD? Have you
dealt with a myopic, single minded school
>system who strongly
encouraged medication for your ADHD child?
Every time someone comes into the group and pronounces that they have **seen**
this, I have emailed them to substantiate it with the names and addresses of
the perpetrators of this dastardly deed. I tild them that I would gladly send
the information to the local media, the State Education Department, the EEOC,
etc., and use MY name.
So far, there are no takers.
Just fakers.
MarkProbe
In article <wpenrose.14...@interaccess.com>, wpen...@interaccess.com
(William R. Penrose) writes:
>My son was severe ADHD and responded to Ritalin by becoming a zombie. >We put
him on the Feingold diet (now discredited and reviled far and wide) and
>a huge weight was lifted from us. Now he is successful, non-ADHD, and
>married, and one of his own children showed the early signs. We put him on
>the diet and he is now behaving normally.
Aren't you glad that your son did not have ADHD? The Feingold diet cured his
food allergies.
>However, some school social worker read his medical file and called my son
>with the news that his son would not be allowed into kindergarten unless he
>was put on Ritalin. My son went ballistic and is girding himself to go to the
>mat with the school on this issue.
Your son does not have to do that. I have an extremely simple solution for your
son. Tell your son to have the social worker put the ultimatum in writing on
school letterhead, with their signature.
Now, if the social worker does not do that, I'll give you the letter your son
should send them:
Dear SW:
On (date) you verbally told me that my son would not be allowed into
kindergarten
if he is not placed on Ritalin. I asked you on (date) to place that statement
in writing.
(#) of days has elapsed since then, and I have not heard from you. I am writing
to you to make sure that I have heard you correctly. If I do not hear from you
by (give 'em a week) I will assume that I am correct and that you did tell me
that my son would not be allowed into the school if we did not place him on
Ritalin.
Sincerely yours,
Mr. Jenrose, Jr.
------------------------
If you do not get a response from that letter, make a photocopies and send one
each to every school board member, and the State Education Commissioner.
I am ***Certain** that this will cure that problem. You have my money back
guarantee (which expires as soon as I finish this message.)
>I have had enough contact with psychologists to conclude that the entire
>profession is a pseudoscience. Their time is spent making up illnesses and
>then charging to treat them -- witness recovered memory 'therapy', the DSM-IV,
>and Ritalin treatment.
Hogwash. More anti-science hysteria.
Ann
mark...@aol.com (MarkProbe) expounded:
>Every time someone comes into the group and pronounces that they have **seen**
>this, I have emailed them to substantiate it with the names and addresses of
>the perpetrators of this dastardly deed. I tild them that I would gladly send
>the information to the local media, the State Education Department, the EEOC,
>etc., and use MY name.
Are you calling me a faker, Mark? I certainly hope not. It's just
that I have enough on my hands getting my children a decent education
in the Hanson elementary schools to fight never ending battles that
can't be won. Feel free to investigate the school system here
yourself, I'm stretched too far as it is. *I* feel I have been
treated this way, as have many of my friends who have kids in the
school system here. We deal with it. Don't you dare question my
motives, I am only speaking for myself.
Is it the point here among the regulars to start splitting each other
so we can have a free for all? I think I'll leave before I'll start
participating in that. Not that it'll bother you any, there's always
someone else to rip to shreds.
We lose alot of good people in this newsgroup because someone has a
bad day and misinterprets what someone else says. Let's not make it a
habit.
--
Ann
ann...@thecia.net
Brian Leyton
On Sun, 23 Nov 1997 18:12:14 GMT, jpal...@ix.netcom.com (John Palmer)
wrote:
>On Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:55:34 GMT, ann...@thecia.net (Ann) wrote:
<snip>
>>Remember, I have two medicated children. I do question, however, the
>>need for medication in the schools, I believe the need wouldn't be so
>>great if they had adaptive programs for ADHD children...or any child
>>that doesn't fit the norm.
>
> If you're saying "A child who might need stronger medication to
>be able to focus might need less, or a weaker medication, to focus, if
>the schools changed", I agree, though I'm not sure that this is a
>major issue. If you're saying "the schools could eliminate the need
>form medication", I disagree strongly.
I agree with you John. I think that there are probably many ADHD kids
who could do fine without medication *IF* they had the right
educational situation (teacher primarily, but many other factors will
figure in as well). The fact remains, that not every teacher is going
to be able to cope with these issues. If you really want to keep your
kid off of meds, then I think you'd have to move them to a different
school each year, so that they always got the best teacher possible.
For many reasons though, this is totally impractical, and would most
likely cause other problems which would negate any positive effect
that the teacher would have.
The fact remains that our children will have to suffer through some
lousy teachers. If we want them to be able to learn something from
them, and not get kicked out, then medication may be the best
approach. It's certainly not the only one, but it probably has fewer
side-effects than any of the alternatives.
Brian Leyton
MarkProbe
> A frequent comment from professionals is that "if the child responds to
>diet changes, then it isn't ADHD". Well, excuse me, but if it looks like a
>duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, I still think it's a duck.
>Our son was a perfect match for ADHD in the DSM-III (the bible of the psych
>industry).
This person failed to read the part in DSM III about finding a cause for the
behaviors rules out the diagnosis of ADHD.
William R. Penrose
In article <19971124195...@ladder01.news.aol.com> mark...@aol.com (MarkProbe) writes:
>Hogwash. More anti-science hysteria.
I do science for a living. I know science, and psychology is not a science.
Thanks for the tip on the letter. I'll suggest it to my son.
Bill
Bill & Kay St. John
My son was doing fine in school scholastically- it was the peer interaction
he was flunking out on. He had NO friends, 'cause they all thought he was
too wierd, and maybe even retarded, (he's actually gifted) because he just
didn't have a clue about social skills and his poor impulse control only
made it worse.
My daughter was having a terrible time in school, but not because she was
disruptive. She is very dreamy and would just get lost in her mind instead
of being able to concentrate on her schoolwork. It would take her hours to
finish things because every little thing distracted her.
Two very different children, both with ADD or ADHD, both on meds not
because the school wanted to be able to control them but because, after
much soul-searching, it seemed in their best interests at the times.
Now, if our public schools had social skills training as part of the
curriculum, and if the classes were smaller so that more individual
attention was available, and if we could make grade school children less
cruel and feral, well, you know, if we lived in Utopia - then they probably
wouldn't need the meds.
Of course (and I've asked this before), how many of the rabid anti-drugs
people self-medicate with coffee or "natural energy boosters" like guarana,
which is also a naturally caffeinated plant? Hmmm?
--
-Kay-
(It's an ADD thing. You wouldn't underst--Hey! Look at that!)
Ann <ann...@thecia.net> wrote in article
<3475be08...@news.thecia.net>...
> jpal...@ix.netcom.com (John Palmer) expounded:
> Remember, I have two medicated children. I do question, however, the
> need for medication in the schools, I believe the need wouldn't be so
> great if they had adaptive programs for ADHD children...or any child
Ann
"Bill & Kay St. John" <bst...@flash.net> expounded:
>Of course (and I've asked this before), how many of the rabid anti-drugs
>people self-medicate with coffee or "natural energy boosters" like guarana,
>which is also a naturally caffeinated plant? Hmmm?
>--
Who is a rabid anti-drug person? Not me. My son has been on Ritalin
for over 4 years, and it has been a godsend as far as his being able
to learn in the public school system. But that's my point. Not
everyone learns the same way.
My eldest is on Wellbutrin for depression and ADHD. No anti drug
people around here, just a wondering mom.
--
Ann
ann...@thecia.net
Brian Leyton
>My son was severe ADHD and responded to Ritalin by becoming a zombie. We put
>him on the Feingold diet (now discredited and reviled far and wide) and a huge
>weight was lifted from us. Now he is successful, non-ADHD, and married, and
>one of his own children showed the early signs. We put him on the diet and he
>is now behaving normally.
>
>However, some school social worker read his medical file and called my son
>with the news that his son would not be allowed into kindergarten unless he
>was put on Ritalin. My son went ballistic and is girding himself to go to the
>mat with the school on this issue.
This is completely ridiculous. Your son has every right to be angry.
Not only is medication an issue that is strictly between the patient
and their doctor, but a social worker definitely has no business
telling anyone what medications they should or shouldn't be taking.
>I have had enough contact with psychologists to conclude that the entire
>profession is a pseudoscience. Their time is spent making up illnesses and
>then charging to treat them -- witness recovered memory 'therapy', the DSM-IV,
>and Ritalin treatment.
I used to feel the same way, after spending much of my childhood being
shuttled from social worker to psychologist to psychiatrist, with
little perceived benefit.
Once my son was diagnosed with ADHD, I went back into this world with
a healthy dose of skepticism. The end result is that I've gained a
new respect for the profession. I think that the problem is that
there are a lot of incompetent "professionals" out there. You need to
work hard to find one that is well educated and to whom you can
relate. That's not so easy, but thankfully we've found a psychiatrist
for my son who we are very happy with. She (as well as the
professionals at his therapeutic nursery school) have made a
tremendous difference in our lives.
A lot has been learned about ADHD over the last 30 years. I really
believe that with proper treatment, we can prevent much of the misery
that has affected people with ADHD over the years. ADHD is *not* a
made-up syndrome. It is real, and it causes real problems. We are
fortunate that there are many ways of helping people cope with ADHD -
as long as they take their blinders off, and take advantage of all
that has been learned in recent years.
Brian Leyton
da BRAT!
On 26 Nov 1997 12:23:22 GMT, mark...@aol.com (MarkProbe) spurted :
>In article <347b07a6...@news.thecia.net>, ann...@thecia.net (Ann) writes:
>>>Every time someone comes into the group and pronounces that they have
>>>**seen** this, I have emailed them to substantiate it with the names and
>>>addresses of the perpetrators of this dastardly deed. I tild them that I
>would >>gladly send the information to the local media, the State Education
>>>Department, the EEOC, etc., and use MY name.
>
>>Are you calling me a faker, Mark? I certainly hope not. It's just
>>that I have enough on my hands getting my children a decent education
>>in the Hanson elementary schools to fight never ending battles that
>>can't be won. Feel free to investigate the school system here
>>yourself, I'm stretched too far as it is. *I* feel I have been
>>treated this way, as have many of my friends who have kids in the
>>school system here. We deal with it. Don't you dare question my
>>motives, I am only speaking for myself.
>
>And, so am I. I related to you what I have done in the past. You replied. The
>others never even took the time to tell me anything. I see a difference between
>them and you. A big differnce. Can you say "credibility".
>
>>Is it the point here among the regulars to start splitting each other
>>so we can have a free for all? I think I'll leave before I'll start
>>participating in that. Not that it'll bother you any, there's always
>>someone else to rip to shreds. We lose alot of good people in this newsgroup
>>because someone has a bad day and misinterprets what someone else says.
>>Let's not make it a habit.
>
>See my statement above.
I've not read this, I haven't a clue as to what it's all about. And,
for that matter, I don't care.
But everyone please keep in mind that one of the symptoms here is
"spiking" and "impulsive" and "inappropriate" anger.
I just had this discussion with my therp today regarding the brief and
now resolved sparring I did with Ann. Well, I guess I didn't spar
well, I submitted and said I'd be quiet. :))
The therp agreed. A group full of ADD's will have a LOT of "one
liners" and spiked anger. Within this group there are adult ADD's and
parents of children with ADD or ADHD. Ya can't expect us all to be
happy all the time. If we were, we most certainly would not have
found our way here....
$.02 deposited.
My newsreader won't let me post this cuz there is more quoted text
than original text (Love Agent except this little bug) so here's a
joke:
Seen by anti-Microsoft protestors at Comdex about CEO Bill Gates.
"What does he want to buy, today?"
--
Selected by Jim Griffith. MAIL your joke to fu...@clari.net.
Yes, I'm against Gates' monopoly. BUT DON'T GET ME STARTED ON
POLITICS!
--
da BRAT!
1:43:20 PM 11/26/97
mailto:br...@antisocial.com
Posted by the evil twin.
Joe Parsons
On Wed, 26 Nov 1997 21:57:39 GMT, da BRAT! <br...@antisocial.com>
wrote:
[snip]
>My newsreader won't let me post this cuz there is more quoted text
>than original text (Love Agent except this little bug) so here's a
>joke:
The problem is not with your newsreader; it's with your ISP and
the way he has configured his news server. It's supposed to
prevent overquoting, but there are cases where it keeps you from
saying what you want to say in the way you want to say it.
There are a couple of solutions: first, you can complain to your
ISP about it. It's a very easy matter for him to fix.
If he won't change it, you can configure your newsreader to use a
different quoting character than the ">" In Agent, go to Options
| General | Posting preferences. You should see a little box
containing the ">" character. Change it to something like ":" or
"|" and you should be fine.
Joe Parsons
posted and mailed
>
>Seen by anti-Microsoft protestors at Comdex about CEO Bill Gates.
>
>"What does he want to buy, today?"
>
>--
>Selected by Jim Griffith. MAIL your joke to fu...@clari.net.
>
>Yes, I'm against Gates' monopoly. BUT DON'T GET ME STARTED ON
>POLITICS!
--
=====================================================================
Please remove the "!" from my address to send me mail. I do not
wish to receive *any* Unsolicited Commercial E-mail (UCE). I will
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unwanted mail is willful harassment. You *don't* want to do that.
da BRAT!
On Wed, 26 Nov 1997 14:09:52 -0800, joe!@cyber-mall.com (Joe Parsons)
spurted :
>On Wed, 26 Nov 1997 21:57:39 GMT, da BRAT! <br...@antisocial.com>
>wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>My newsreader won't let me post this cuz there is more quoted text
>>than original text (Love Agent except this little bug) so here's a
>>joke:
>
>The problem is not with your newsreader; it's with your ISP and
>the way he has configured his news server. It's supposed to
>prevent overquoting, but there are cases where it keeps you from
>saying what you want to say in the way you want to say it.
>
>There are a couple of solutions: first, you can complain to your
>ISP about it. It's a very easy matter for him to fix.
>
>If he won't change it, you can configure your newsreader to use a
>different quoting character than the ">" In Agent, go to Options
>| General | Posting preferences. You should see a little box
>containing the ">" character. Change it to something like ":" or
>"|" and you should be fine.
>
>Joe Parsons
>
>posted and mailed
Okay, thanks Joe, and please bear with me everyone: this is a test.
--
da BRAT!
2:31:20 PM 11/26/97
mailto:br...@antisocial.com
Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time.
Ann
da BRAT! <br...@antisocial.com> expounded:
>My newsreader won't let me post this cuz there is more quoted text
>than original text (Love Agent except this little bug) so here's a
>joke:
T'isn't Agent, it's your ISP. They control how much new material must
be added to a post.
--
Ann
ann...@thecia.net
Starseed47
Actually, too much quoted text
is really a pain to read anyway ~
My bad .. I don't really know what this is all about anyway,
I just thought I'd throw in my personal opinion. Sometimes
these quoted texts with three or four peoples thoughts and all
the little <<'s .. and then one line at the bottom added on are
really a ##@&^%*$ mess!!
Just MHO s'all.
Ruth
San Diego
@-------->>>------
"Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday,
lying in hospitals dying of nothing." ~ Redd Foxx
MarkProbe
>In article <19971124195...@ladder01.news.aol.com> mark...@aol.com
(MarkProbe) writes:
>>Hogwash. More anti-science hysteria.
>I do science for a living. I know science, and psychology is not a science.
Psychology has far more of a scientific basis than does the Foolsgold diet.
>Thanks for the tip on the letter. I'll suggest it to my son.
While I am not a hunter, it is always open season on educrats. Seems your
school has a few.
John Palmer
On Mon, 24 Nov 1997 23:10:40 GMT, ann...@thecia.net (Ann) wrote:
>mark...@aol.com (MarkProbe) expounded:
>
>>Every time someone comes into the group and pronounces that they have **seen**
>>this, I have emailed them to substantiate it with the names and addresses of
>>the perpetrators of this dastardly deed.
>Are you calling me a faker, Mark? I certainly hope not. It's just
>that I have enough on my hands getting my children a decent education
>in the Hanson elementary schools to fight never ending battles that
>can't be won.
Sigh. Ann, what's happening here is that two different issues
are getting mixed.
Someone, in the midst of a "No one who has ADD *REALLY* needs
drugs!", said that over-active kids are drugged into 'fitting in'. I
called this person on their bullshit.
Now, please, correct me about what happened next, but here's what
I saw . . .
You seemed to think I meant
"Schools can deal with problem children quite well, thank you."
when I was saying
"It is not true that there is rampant forced-drugging of children,
especially not at the schools insistence (after all, use of meds
requires parental consent)."
Ann, you seem upset at the treatment that the schools have been
giving you. . . and I understand that. But it's independent of the
'forced drugging' issue.
If you said something like
"I bet most schools would cheerfully drug most students into
submission if they believed that there were no serious side effects
and such drugs existed"
I'd sort-of agree, but point out that *MANY* schoolfolk care a
lot more about the children than it can appear when you're facing an
impersonal bureaucracy.
But again: this is a different issue.
>Is it the point here among the regulars to start splitting each other
>so we can have a free for all? I think I'll leave before I'll start
>participating in that. Not that it'll bother you any, there's always
>someone else to rip to shreds.
You know, I, personally, honestly, do not specifically enjoy
attacking people who come in here, sometimes in foolish ignorance,
sometimes with avarice blindness. I'd *RATHER* people ask about
things they don't know, and preface things they're not sure about with
"I'm not sure about this."
Is there a certain 'glee' in ripping apart a poorly thought out
argument? Yeah, there is, I admit it. In the same way that I'm sure
there was some glee in hearing (Mark, correct me) how Josh beat up the
last folks who tried to beat HIM up. . .
I learned to argue with some of the best of them; yeah, sometimes
it's fun to find someone coming in here with obvious lies and be able
to, with barely any effort, point out those lies and inconsistencies.
It makes me feel like "the bad guys ain't gonna win".
But if you think it's just a flame fest, check what I've posted
in here; if I feel it's helpful, I'll throw in my personal experience
and observations, and I *NEVER* let a question go if I feel I can
answer it, if I think I can and it hasn't been answered already.
Ann
mark...@aol.com (MarkProbe) expounded:
>And, so am I. I related to you what I have done in the past. You replied. The
>others never even took the time to tell me anything. I see a difference between
>them and you. A big differnce. Can you say "credibility".
Thanks, I think.
And I never did receive any e-mail from you.
--
Ann
ann...@thecia.net
Ann
jpal...@ix.netcom.com (John Palmer) expounded:
> Sigh. Ann, what's happening here is that two different issues
>are getting mixed.
Perhaps.
> Someone, in the midst of a "No one who has ADD *REALLY* needs
>drugs!", said that over-active kids are drugged into 'fitting in'. I
>called this person on their bullshit.
>
> Now, please, correct me about what happened next, but here's what
>I saw . . .
>
> You seemed to think I meant
>
>"Schools can deal with problem children quite well, thank you."
>
> when I was saying
>
>"It is not true that there is rampant forced-drugging of children,
>especially not at the schools insistence (after all, use of meds
>requires parental consent)."
>
> Ann, you seem upset at the treatment that the schools have been
>giving you. . . and I understand that. But it's independent of the
>'forced drugging' issue.
Well, it isn't independent if it is what I believed to have happened
to my children's situation.
> If you said something like
>
> "I bet most schools would cheerfully drug most students into
>submission if they believed that there were no serious side effects
>and such drugs existed"
>
> I'd sort-of agree, but point out that *MANY* schoolfolk care a
>lot more about the children than it can appear when you're facing an
>impersonal bureaucracy.
Hasn't been evidenced around here that way.
snip
>
>>Is it the point here among the regulars to start splitting each other
>>so we can have a free for all? I think I'll leave before I'll start
>>participating in that. Not that it'll bother you any, there's always
>>someone else to rip to shreds.
>
> You know, I, personally, honestly, do not specifically enjoy
>attacking people who come in here, sometimes in foolish ignorance,
>sometimes with avarice blindness. I'd *RATHER* people ask about
>things they don't know, and preface things they're not sure about with
>"I'm not sure about this."
Well, not everyone thinks the way you do. Each person's thought
processes are different. You can't expect a poster to follow some
kind of pattern, it isn't possible.
> Is there a certain 'glee' in ripping apart a poorly thought out
>argument? Yeah, there is, I admit it. In the same way that I'm sure
>there was some glee in hearing (Mark, correct me) how Josh beat up the
>last folks who tried to beat HIM up. . .
Different strokes for different folks...
> I learned to argue with some of the best of them; yeah, sometimes
>it's fun to find someone coming in here with obvious lies and be able
>to, with barely any effort, point out those lies and inconsistencies.
>It makes me feel like "the bad guys ain't gonna win".
>
> But if you think it's just a flame fest, check what I've posted
>in here; if I feel it's helpful, I'll throw in my personal experience
>and observations, and I *NEVER* let a question go if I feel I can
>answer it, if I think I can and it hasn't been answered already.
I can argue with the best of them, however, this is supposed to be a
support group. People here are far to eager to hit that reply button
and blast away. John, this is probably one of the most thoughtful
posts I've seen from you. You're right, you can be helpful, as can
Mark. However, both of you are just as quick to cut someone off at
the knees without any consideration to that persons state of mind when
posting. Everyone isn't clueless, everyone isn't out to get someone,
and all posters with an opinion different than your's aren't sales
critters that need to be beaten back with a stick.
I don't come to this group armed with facts, figures, names and dates.
I am just here to hang out with people dealing with ADHD. I wish
there would be more discussion, and less arguing, taking place on this
board.
--
Ann
ann...@thecia.net
rixter sans <!>
On Sun, 30 Nov 1997 03:06:50 GMT, ann...@thecia.net (Ann) wrote:
>
>I don't come to this group armed with facts, figures, names and dates.
>I am just here to hang out with people dealing with ADHD. I wish
>there would be more discussion, and less arguing, taking place on this
>board.
>
Yee-haw! Yes! You *GO*, Ann-Girl!
Last time I checked the heirarchy, it *did* say
"alt.SUPPORT.attn-deficit", at that...
It'd be nice if more of the regular posters remembered that
occasionally, hmm hmm?
rixter
-- rix...@nospam.bellsouth.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*LEGAL NOTICE TO ALL BULK E-MAILERS* Pursuant to US
Code,Title 7,Chapter 5,Subchapter II,227,all
nonsolicited commercial email sent to my address
is subject to a download & archival fee in the
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and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
John Palmer
On Sun, 30 Nov 1997 03:06:50 GMT, ann...@thecia.net (Ann) wrote:
>jpal...@ix.netcom.com (John Palmer) expounded:
>> Ann, you seem upset at the treatment that the schools have been
>>giving you. . . and I understand that. But it's independent of the
>>'forced drugging' issue.
>
>Well, it isn't independent if it is what I believed to have happened
>to my children's situation.
Perhaps you should bring that up with the school, then. . . if
you feel that they are hitting to hard with the medication issue, hit
them back, saying that their job is to work with you to educate your
child, NOT to browbeat you into drugging your child into an acceptable
student.
>>
>> You know, I, personally, honestly, do not specifically enjoy
>>attacking people who come in here, sometimes in foolish ignorance,
>>sometimes with avarice blindness. I'd *RATHER* people ask about
>>things they don't know, and preface things they're not sure about with
>>"I'm not sure about this."
>
>Well, not everyone thinks the way you do. Each person's thought
>processes are different. You can't expect a poster to follow some
>kind of pattern, it isn't possible.
No. But I can ask for the common courtesy of not saying
something when you have no idea if it's true or not. I can also ask
for people to refrain from lying rhetoric about "thousands of children
being drugged into submssion because they are imaginative or active."
>>
>> But if you think it's just a flame fest, check what I've posted
>>in here; if I feel it's helpful, I'll throw in my personal experience
>>and observations, and I *NEVER* let a question go if I feel I can
>>answer it, if I think I can and it hasn't been answered already.
>
>I can argue with the best of them, however, this is supposed to be a
>support group. People here are far to eager to hit that reply button
>and blast away.
Nothing eager about it on my end; readiness and eagerness are not
the same thing.
> John, this is probably one of the most thoughtful
>posts I've seen from you. You're right, you can be helpful, as can
>Mark. However, both of you are just as quick to cut someone off at
>the knees without any consideration to that persons state of mind when
>posting.
If I see someone who seems to be upset, I try not to attack them,
even if they're not being entirely accurate (though I do try to
correct any misinformation).
However, if someone wants to insist that "we" are all drugging
over-active children, I don't care how upset they are; *WE* are not
doing that. It may be happening, but making loud rhetoric about it in
a usenet newsgroup isn't going to make things better.
> Everyone isn't clueless, everyone isn't out to get someone,
>and all posters with an opinion different than your's aren't sales
>critters that need to be beaten back with a stick.
I don't attack people for differences of opinion; you'll notice,
for example, that I'm not attacking you for stating your differences
of opinion about my posting style. What I *DO* dislike are people who
don't seem to understand that bad information can be a lot worse than
no information. . . especially when those people seem only too glad to
spread that bad information.
>I don't come to this group armed with facts, figures, names and dates.
>I am just here to hang out with people dealing with ADHD. I wish
>there would be more discussion, and less arguing, taking place on this
>board.
As do I. . . but that does *NOT* mean it's appropriate for a
salescritter or a misinformed person to spread misinformation.
John Palmer
>
> Last time I checked the heirarchy, it *did* say
>"alt.SUPPORT.attn-deficit", at that...
>
> It'd be nice if more of the regular posters remembered that
>occasionally, hmm hmm?
So if an idiot tells a parent of a child with a broken leg to
exercise the broken leg to help it heal, we are more supportive to
avoid conflict, rather than point out that a broken limb must be
IMMOBILIZED while it heals?
MarkProbe
In article <347ece83...@news.thecia.net>, ann...@thecia.net (Ann)
writes:
>>And, so am I. I related to you what I have done in the past. You replied.
>>The others never even took the time to tell me anything. I see a difference
>>between them and you. A big differnce. Can you say "credibility".
>Thanks, I think.
You think right.
>And I never did receive any e-mail from you.
Thank heavens!. I never sent you any. Imagine if you did, and I had not sent
you any.
Let me be clear. There have been many times where people have come into the
group and have siad that this or that is going on in the school near me. I
email them and ask for the name and address of the school, and all the
particulars.
I offer to write to the school to let them know what is happening behind their
back.
Then, I wait for a reply. And wait, and wait, and wait.
This problem, of bogus stories, came to a head in the Summer of 1996. Forbes
Ragazine ran an anti-ADHD/MPH article that was truly offensive. One of their
authorities on ADHD was a law school dean. (Get the pic?)
Now, a n issue or so later there was a letter to the editor fromsome fellow in
Colorado where he claimed that the school near him (and it turned out that
there was only one possibility) had 30% of the kids on Ritalin. Well, the
principal of that school read the letter. Wrote Forbes, who would not publish
it. Then he posted the letter to a maillist and we got a copy here through
NancyG (where is she????). Seems the principal checked, and found that the
percentage was under 10% for ALL meds.
So, if I challenge a "story" from a newbie please know that I have heard it
before, and have yet to see it proven.
However, if Joe Parsons were to say that his kid goes to a school with 33% of
the kids on Ritalin, I would accept that. He, like you, has credibility.
I evaluate two elements to every story: the source and the content. It is a
purely subjective evaluation, but I have done this since I was trained over
twenty five years ago, and I found that it works for me.
Source 1-5 time content 1-5 give a range of 1-25, with 25 being the gospel
truth.
I have had a few ones (and that kept me alive) and never a twenty-five. The
best was a 20, and the sources were people I had worked with, and the material
I was intimately familiar with.
I hope this explains me a bit.
MarkProbe
This has been a common theme in many posts. There can be little doubt that the
educrats would stoop to this level.
However, what is a parent to do about this? What is the appropriate response?
let me suggest a course of action that delivers the message "shut up" without
being confrontational, unless they invite it.
If *anyone* in the school suggests medication to a parent or child, that person
shoudl be asked to place the suggestion in writing, as you want to make sure
that your healtch care professional sees exactly what is being suggested.
Now, you will get one of two responses. Most likely, the person will tell you
that they do not have to "put it in writing" as you can just tell the doctors.
This is not a satisfactory answer. Prepare a memorialization letter, and try to
be as specific as possible. Specify date, time, and summarize the conversation
and setting as accurately as possible. Then close with:
Please correct me if I did not summarize your recommendation to place my
child on medication correctly. If I do not hear from you by _____, I will
assume I am correct.
Now, that will get their attention. Unless they are stupid. (BTW, if they do
put the recommendation in writing, you KNOW they are stupid.)
The other possible response is that they will deny saying that. Then, resort
the memorialization letter.
Educrats are loathe to see themselves in writing that they cannot control.
Or, if the school is realy difficult, ask your doctor to write a letter to the
erson. If s/he does, you got a doc with guts.
William R. Penrose
In article <19971202135...@ladder01.news.aol.com> mark...@aol.com (MarkProbe) writes:
>Subject: School Recommends Medication
>This has been a common theme in many posts. There can be little doubt that the
>educrats would stoop to this level.
A followup--
My son and dtr-in-lw had their meeting with the school, which turned out to be
the social worker that had made the call, and his boy's future kindergarten
teacher. They met at my son's home.
The social worker was not prepared for (a) my son to be home with
his wife, and (b) him to be so well-informed, as an ex-ADHD himself.
On the other hand, the teacher was delighted and extremely cooperative,and
has handled kids like him before. The hard part is keeping control of the
food intake in the school environment. The boy knows that certain foods make
him feel lousy, though, and he avoids them for the most part.
Problem (apparently) averted.
MarkProbe
>My son and dtr-in-lw had their meeting with the school, which turned out to
>be the social worker that had made the call, and his boy's future
>kindergarten teacher. They met at my son's home.
That is a good sign. Willingness to not use the "come tothe principal's office"
approach which is designed to intimidate parents.
>The social worker was not prepared for (a) my son to be home with
>his wife, and (b) him to be so well-informed, as an ex-ADHD himself.
School social workers do that. For some reason, they assume that the family is
dysfunctional and you know nothing.
>On the other hand, the teacher was delighted and extremely cooperative,and
>has handled kids like him before.The hard part is keeping control of the
>food intake in the school. environment. The boy knows that certain foods
>make him feel lousy, though, and he avoids them for the most part.
Teacher sounds OK. Is s/he new? As for the food, well, have you ever tasted it?
No guts, eh?
Our district has a "bring in" program. One day bagels, one day chicken nuggets,
one day pizza, one day Subways, etc.
>Problem (apparently) averted.
DO NOT EVER ASSUME THAT! Wait until high school graduation and then use 20/20
hindsight.