fanfiction: web or zine?
call18...@hotmail.com
I just want to state first that I am posting under an alias. By doing
this, I think I can be more honest in what I have to say. I would also
like to say that I have been participating in this NG for a few
years...as a writer and most definately as an avid reader.
First off, I'd like to say that in general, I like printed zines. I have
several of them. And more than likely, I will buy a couple more in the
future. But recently, I purchased a zine-novella that quite frankly,
wasn't worth a dime.
I kept reading, and reading hoping things would get better. By the time
I reached the end, I was a little pissed I had spent 7.75$ on what I
consider to be crap. The characterizations were pedantic and
unbelievable. In fact, the characters were so 'out of character' I had
to remind myself (frequently) that this was supposed to be Picard and
Crusher in the story.
I know in the past, there have pleas on behalf of the printed zine. And
how web produced fanfiction is pushing this media form into extinction.
It has also been argued, in their favor, that we, as a fanfic reading
public, should not let this happen. Statements for this argument are
that printed zines are a 'higher' quality of writing due to the fact
that they are edited. Whereas web produced stories are ground out with
out so much as a by your leave from the spell checker.
I will admit that the actual full length zines that I have bought are,
for the most part, very good. But not ALL the stories contained in these
tomes was great. Some were good...some were okay...and some made me go
"Hmmm...".
Quite frankly, these are the same responses I get when reading on-line
fanfiction. Know what the difference is...it's free on-line. I like it
being free.
Another argument I have heard is that people like to hold a story in
their hands. Okay, I agree to that too. Know what? I have a printer.
Arguably though, it will not print out some of the sometimes nice
artwork you get with a zine, but hey, I've got a great imagination.
I know it must be a ego boost to authors to see their work 'in print'.
They don't get paid for this, but the reading public pays for it. I
guess I just like the idea of the free idea forum of the net. And it
seems to me that printed zines are getting a little out of range. It's
not the fault of the publishers, the editors, or the writers and
artists...it just is.
Extinction is the rule...not the exception.
What do I hope to gain by this...nothing I suppose. I guess I'm just
disgruntled after reading that piece of junk. My opinion, of course.
That, and 50 cents will get me a coke...maybe.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Gabrielle Lawson
and I put out my stories in print, too.
call18...@hotmail.com wrote:
> First off, I'd like to say that in general, I like printed zines. I have
> several of them. And more than likely, I will buy a couple more in the
> future. But recently, I purchased a zine-novella that quite frankly,
> wasn't worth a dime.
I've seen anthology zines I felt the same way about. Not all of them. Some
were okay. A few were really good.
> I will admit that the actual full length zines that I have bought are,
> for the most part, very good. But not ALL the stories contained in these
> tomes was great. Some were good...some were okay...and some made me go
> "Hmmm...".
Yep.
> Quite frankly, these are the same responses I get when reading on-line
> fanfiction. Know what the difference is...it's free on-line. I like it
> being free.
Right.
> Another argument I have heard is that people like to hold a story in
> their hands. Okay, I agree to that too. Know what? I have a printer.
> Arguably though, it will not print out some of the sometimes nice
> artwork you get with a zine, but hey, I've got a great imagination.
That's why I offer print. Actually, it's one of two reasons. 1) People
who have read the story (or another by me) and liked it, want to hold
it in their hands. 2) People who aren't on the net and can't get it for
free.
> I know it must be a ego boost to authors to see their work 'in print'.
> They don't get paid for this, but the reading public pays for it. I
> guess I just like the idea of the free idea forum of the net. And it
> seems to me that printed zines are getting a little out of range. It's
> not the fault of the publishers, the editors, or the writers and
> artists...it just is.
I agree. I'm not crying over the death of printed zines, if in fact, that
is what will happen. I like the net. I like putting my stories out there
for free. If I'm reluctant to pay for zines, I can't expect my readers
to just shell out the bucks. But if they want to, I'll offer it. Every
story I put in print is on the Net for free, and by the way, comes to
ASC even before it goes on my web site.
If I had the chance to read a story first, before deciding to buy it,
I might be less against zines. I'd still be a bit miserly, as that's my
natural state, but if I read a really wonderful story, I'd probably
consider buying it. It's hard for me to put my money out there
when I don't know the quality of the product.
> Extinction is the rule...not the exception.
Sad, but quite probable. But maybe they don't have to die out, just
evolve. The way I do my zines is quite viable. I print when orders
come in. No minimum number of prints to sell. If there are no orders,
there is no printing and no cost to me. I'm not losing money.
I'm not losing sleep. And don't think that slows down the turnaround time.
I can get a story in the mail in two days after recieving payment. The
recipient usually has the zine in their hands in less than a week. It's
simple, it's effective, and it's no risk to the reader. Everybody's
happy.
I'm not trying to toot my own horn. I've seen zine people say that they
are losing money and have to cut back on how much they offer. The
answer seems simple to me: Don't print more than are ordered. Get
payment in advance of printing. Get the money, make the print and
send it. No money is lost. None is gained, either, but we're not supposed
to be gaining money on these things anyway.
> What do I hope to gain by this...nothing I su0ppose. I guess I'm just
> disgruntled after reading that piece of junk. My opinion, of course.
> That, and 50 cents will get me a coke...maybe.
Where? Not any of the machines I've seen lately. Sheesh.
--
--Gabrielle
I'd much rather be writing!
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/2460
thebe...@my-deja.com
for free? They just pick and choose which ones to give the zines and
which to give the public for free. The difference would be what again?
I have a SERIOUS problem paying $22.75 (although I know they don't all
cost that much) for a zine when I have a hard time buying hard backed
BOOKS by my favorite authors for that amount of money. I believe that's
what public libraries are for? Isn't this newsgroup basically an
internet public library? Works for ME!
As someone who has posted stories to this newsgroup, I would rather
people read them for free than have to pay someone else for my work. I
edit my stories and usually have others read them before posting so I
don't just fill up space with drek. Why would I want someone ELSE to
get money for MY work? If the zines don't pay the writers (which would
be illegal anyway because of copyright infringement) what's the point of
my MAKING someone buy it just to read one of my stories? Don't see the
point of that!
Just my two cents. You don't have to agree with me, but don't flame me
for it either.
Bevster
thebe...@my-deja.com
JWinterCNA
printed word, but only sleep on the electronic.
I think the objection that some zine editors have to stories on the net is when
the author turns around and submits them. It's like selling a used car trying
to get a new car price out of it. Can't do it. I've heard one well-known and
well-respected zine producer lament that a story he published didn't sell well
because readers could get it for free on the net. I've also seen stories come
out in a zine, spend a few months on the market, then go to the internet, which
is not a bad idea.
The problem with the used goods method is that zines depend heavily on people
buying them. I can say from personal experience that THEY DO NOT MAKE MONEY.
Or if they do, very little. Anything extra from a zine goes into the next
zine. So, sell more, and the prices go down. Sell less, and the prices go up,
as well as the selection going down.
I prefer the net and the web. I already pay for the ISP's I use, so newsgroups
and web space are essentially free. There's no question of production costs,
since all I invest is my time. And the feedback is usually immediate.
But zines won't disappear. Not everyone, despite the media's shrieking to the
contrary, has a computer. Not everyone with a computer is on the Internet.
Plus, some people just simply prefer to read the printed word. I'd probably
read more from this group if I had a decent printer. Just easier on the eyes.
There will always be a demand for books. As such, there will always be a
demand for zines. The net is like TV. Yet another medium.
J Winter,
Backup FAQ Maintainer
Alliance author
Troll stalker
SPAM slayer
Subversive element of the radical centrist movement
Sydvick
it is fun. I especially like to buy old zines. That stuff is not available on
the net. Some of the graphics are excellent. I hope both survivive. I agree,
the zines make no money,purely a labor of love, it seems. But, I sure don't
want it to die.
My heart is single and cannot be divided
And it is fastened on a single hope;
Oh you, who might be the moon
Until I die, I shall not give up lovesongs.
Oh God, forgive me my shortcomings
SOMALI LOVESONG
Gabrielle Lawson
JWinterCNA wrote:
> Having published a zine, I'm a bit biased. I lost a lot of money on the
> printed word, but only sleep on the electronic.
>
> I think the objection that some zine editors have to stories on the net is when
> the author turns around and submits them. It's like selling a used car trying
> to get a new car price out of it. Can't do it. I've heard one well-known and
> well-respected zine producer lament that a story he published didn't sell well
> because readers could get it for free on the net. I've also seen stories come
> out in a zine, spend a few months on the market, then go to the internet, which
> is not a bad idea.
I submitted one story to someone else's zine. They said I couldn't put the story
on
the net for a year. It will be posted in October, one year from publication. It's
hard to sit on a story like that, especially when you think it's a good one. But
I believe people should honor their agreements. This is also why, generally
speaking, if my stories go in a zine, they go in my zine. I can do whatever I want
with it then.
> The problem with the used goods method is that zines depend heavily on people
> buying them. I can say from personal experience that THEY DO NOT MAKE MONEY.
> Or if they do, very little. Anything extra from a zine goes into the next
> zine. So, sell more, and the prices go down. Sell less, and the prices go up,
> as well as the selection going down.
But I don't understand how there can be any extra at all. Wouldn't that,
technically,
be profit? And isn't that profit against the rules? Zines should cost only what
they
cost to produce and send. No more. Bevster said she doesn't like spending $22.75
on a zine. I don't either and I don't expect others to. So I shrank my font, used
columns, removed extra spaces, and did everything I could to get my stories (and
for those that know me, two of them are huge) into as few pages as possible. Fewer
pages, lower cost to print. Fewer pages, less weight to ship. I agonized over
finding
out just how much a story costs to print and how much it weighed for mailing. It
should be exact. That's what you charge the customer. No more. No profit. No
extra.
It won't effect the next zine because the next scene costs only what it costs to
print
and send.
> I prefer the net and the web. I already pay for the ISP's I use, so newsgroups
> and web space are essentially free. There's no question of production costs,
> since all I invest is my time. And the feedback is usually immediate.
Me, too. But you can't get Siddig El Fadil and half the cast of DS9 to sign a
ascii post. ;-) (I love my cover of Oswiecim. Really, I do.)
> But zines won't disappear. Not everyone, despite the media's shrieking to the
> contrary, has a computer. Not everyone with a computer is on the Internet.
> Plus, some people just simply prefer to read the printed word. I'd probably
> read more from this group if I had a decent printer. Just easier on the eyes.
> There will always be a demand for books. As such, there will always be a
> demand for zines. The net is like TV. Yet another medium.
Agreed. They should complement each other not compete with each other.
Just my theory.
Biffan
>> seems to me that printed zines are getting a little out of range. It's
>> not the fault of the publishers, the editors, or the writers and
>> artists...it just is.
As someone who's produced print zines for nearly 15 years, I am appalled at the
requested price of them today. Yes, some of the color covers are very nice, and
worth the extra cost of color reproduction, especially onto card stock. And,
yes, I know the cost of paper soared to nearly double a few years back. But
considering that I used to have much of my art screened by a professional
printer, and my zine done offset, rather than by photocopy (to which I have no
real objection now, with the improvements in reproduction machines and the use
of line art!), I know costs, know that photocopy doesn't require the outlay
that print does (no plates, etc.), doesn't require a master run of 200+, and
that some "editors" are using zines to make money. I also know that some
"editors" are far from that; they are publishers, nothing more. I recently sent
friends to a zine-heavy convention with a list, and instructions as to who to
buy from and who not to. I know reputations of many that have been out for
years, and trust their ability. I think the point comes down to Caveat Emptor -
Let the Buyer Beware.
Biffan
Biffan
>get money for MY work? If the zines don't pay the writers (which would
>be illegal anyway because of copyright infringement) what's the point of
>my MAKING someone buy it just to read one of my stories? Don't see the
>point of that!
>
stories from friends, EDIT them (see postal bills and long distance bills
soar!), talk artisic friends into illoing them, talk a printer into printing
said zine (quite often right before a convention, where one takes the zines to
be sold, to have money to PAY said printer!), and sells the zine at a cost that
doesn't begin to repay the production costs (phone bills, postage, screened
art, and usually a $2,500 bill to produce a 200 copy run of the 200 + page
zine, which usually cost $12. (Figure it. 200 copies. Give 20 copies to writers
and artists, you have 180 copies left. 180 x $12 = $2,160, which meant the
editor took a $340 printing loss on the zine, not to mention the costs of
production, and any shipping, etc. to cons to sell.)
At that end, how could one pay a writer or artist, except with a copy of said
zine? (Not to mention, the "no payment" rule was what got zine eds around the
"copyright" issue - Gene Roddenberry and George Lucas, the controllers of the
two biggest genres zines were based around in that day, knew that no one was
making money off of it. It was a labor of love - and labor it was, with no
computers, manual layout, rub-on lettering, border tape, etc.!)
"Those were the days, my friend, we thought they'd never end...."
Biffan
JWinterCNA
>technically,
>be profit? And isn't that profit against the rules? Zines should cost only
>what
>they
>cost to produce and send. No more.
Technically, extra is profit. But, if you actively promote a zine, or if you
foresee production costs going up before the run is through, you figure that
in. Generally, it's a good idea, especially doing multiple zines, to add a
little into the selling price to forestall any problems that come up later.
Besides, when you add it all up in the end, you can do a five year run on a
zine, realize you didn't take down the production costs for the last one, and
the extra you make should net you a tank of gas for a small-to-midsize car and
maybe a Happy Meal at McD's. That's it, and only if you're lucky. The zine
will suck up any extras you put into the cost. It's inevitable. The goal of
zine sales is not making a profit; it's treading water. Sure you do it for
love, but you also enjoy not having a leaky wallet.
Randy Landers
<<Why would I want someone ELSE to get money for MY work? If the
zines don't pay the writers (which would be illegal anyway because of
copyright infringement) what's the point of my MAKING someone buy it
just to read one of my stories? Don't see the point of that!>>
Then you have no clue. I have consistently lost $600-$1200 a year for
the past twenty years publishing zines out of the love I have for Star
Trek. We've published nearly 200 zines in that time. Some are great.
Some are duds. Many are in-between.
Gabrielle Lawson says she charges exactly the cost of printing and
shipping the zine. <<No more. No profit. No extra. It won't effect
the next zine because the next scene costs only what it costs to print
and send.>>
Because she doesn't have contributors in her zines (she publishes her
own work), she doesn't have to charge more to cover those expenses.
She also prints on demand whereas we have inventory we maintain on
hand and in the hands of our convention agents. She doesn't hardly
advertise her zine except here on the net, so she doesn't have those
expenses. She doesn't do conventions so she saves a good chunk of
money there.
James Winter says
<<The goal of zine sales is not making a profit; it's treading water.
Sure you do it for love, but you also enjoy not having a leaky
wallet.>>
Quite. All we want to do is break even. By shutting down our free fan
fiction web sites, we've saved over $175 a month because of the
gigabytes of disk space and bandwidth we no longer have to pay for.
And if people want our TNG, DS9 and VOY fan fiction, all they have to
do is pony up around $10 for the latest issue of our zines.
Biffan says
<<I think the point comes down to Caveat Emptor - Let the Buyer
Beware.>>
That's true, of course, in anything. What percentage of pronovels do
you buy are worth the $6 or $7 you paid for it? Zines (theoretically)
have a greater percentage of satisfied readers.
Biffan also says
<<which meant the editor took a $340 printing loss on the zine, not to
mention the costs of production, and any shipping, etc. to cons to
sell>>
Quite close. Now, figure that I've published anywhere from 8 - 16
zines per year for twenty years, and tell me how much of my personal
money has been devoted to ORION PRESS. Here's a hint: it's more than
$20,000.
1800Whatever (an anonymous poster) says
<<By the time I reached the end, I was a little pissed I had spent
7.75$ on what I consider to be crap. The characterizations were
pedantic and
unbelievable. In fact, the characters were so 'out of character' I had
to remind myself (frequently) that this was supposed to be Picard and
Crusher in the story.>>
Interestingly enough, this novella (Sun and Fun...?) by Lynn Lorton is
being complimented by dozens of readers as a wonderful P/C romp. I'm
sorry you didn't like it, I really am. But lots of folks DID like it.
Lynn has always been a prolific writer. Her work has appeared in
Eridani, Idylls and Involution, and while it was up, hers were always
in the top 10 in downloads from the website.
I find myself in the role of John Ordover here, banging my head on the
keyboard. One person is unhappy, and dozens are happy. But whose
comments generate the most attention? The one unsatisfied customer
(and posting this, I know there will be a dozen more (who probably
haven't even read it) who will chime in how "terrible" it was -- LOL).
You can't please everyone; you try to please most people. But at $7.75
(as compared to a $6.99 + tax novel from PocketBooks), you're not out
of much money, are you?
P/C is one of the hardest things to publish because TPTB have done
every thing they can to squelch it. And it's interpreted in different
ways by different fans. Lynn just happens to have an interpretation
that you didn't like. I'd love for you to go ahead and forge a
novella, an answer if you will as to how YOU see the relationship,
submit it to us, and we'll be glad to consider it for publication as
well. We will gladly set it forth as an ORION PRESS fanzine, and then
we'll let the readership judge your work by comparison.
1800whatever also says
<<Quite frankly, these are the same responses I get when reading
on-line
fanfiction. Know what the difference is...it's free on-line. I like it
being free.>>
Then I think that subconsciously you may have had a predisposition NOT
to like the zine in the first place. And sure, free is nice. Everyone
in the Lord's creation knows that. But paper is not free. Copies are
not free. Bindings are not free. Postage is not free. So zines are not
free.
More snippage:
<<I will admit that the actual full length zines that I have bought
are,
for the most part, very good. But not ALL the stories contained in
these
tomes was great. Some were good...some were okay...and some made me go
"Hmmm...">>
Again, this is all because of a matter of taste. LOL We'll publish say
DELTA QUADRANT 8, and one reviewer will say it is the worst zine ever
published by Orion Press, and the next reviewer will say it is the
best zine ever published by Orion Press. One reviewer will say that
BEKi is the least talented self-indulgent hack they've ever read, the
next will say that BEKi is the most talented writer the world has ever
seen. One reviewer will say that 11pts is too wasteful a typesize, and
other will say that 10pts is too small to read clearly. One reviewer
will say that we should do a two-column format, and the next will say
that they love our single-column format. Who's right? {shrugs}
Frankly, we've limited ourselves on this newsgroup in recent months.
We're concentrating on our new digest format (which saves readers
nearly 50% on the price of zines), and we're publishing zines right
now in time for Shore Leave. In addition to Sun and Fun...?, we've
recently published Imzadi (a Troi-Riker zine) and Antares 3 (TOS
genzine). We're going to print Outpost 10 (our DS9 genzine's last
issue, edited by Laura Taylor) on Tuesday, Into the Nexus (TOS
novella) and Idylls 19 (TNG romance) in the coming week, and more in
the weeks thereafter as we gear up for fandom's best convention.
I have to admit that I am hurt by some of the comments made here, and
I'm just about to the point where I will leave this newsgroup and
withdraw all ORION PRESS material from the ASC archives. I don't mean
to sound childish, but it's obvious that this is not the market for
our zines.
--
Randy Landers
ORION PRESS
--------------------------------------------------------------------
For 13MB of quality Classic Trek fan fiction, go to:
http://www.mindspring.com/~randylanders/archives/oaindex.html
For information on ORION PRESS and its fanzines, go to:
http://www.mindspring.com/~randylanders
call18...@hotmail.com
Sure you do it for love, but you also enjoy not having a leaky
wallet.>>
RL said:
>Quite. All we want to do is break even. By shutting down our free fan
>fiction web sites, we've saved over $175 a month because of the
>gigabytes of disk space and bandwidth we no longer have to pay for.
>And if people want our TNG, DS9 and VOY fan fiction, all they have to
>do is pony up around $10 for the latest issue of our zines.
I say:
Zines from Orion are considerably more than $10.
Biffan also says
<<which meant the editor took a $340 printing loss on the zine, not to
mention the costs of production, and any shipping, etc. to cons to
sell>>
RL says haughtily:
>Quite close. Now, figure that I've published anywhere from 8 - 16
>zines per year for twenty years, and tell me how much of my personal
>money has been devoted to ORION PRESS. Here's a hint: it's more than
>$20,000.
And I reply sarcastically:
And whose choice is that? We are all thankful that you have done this
great service for us over the years, but it's time to get off the cross.
RL says this while bastardizing my callsign <ouch...clutches
chest...that really hurts...sniffle>
1800Whatever (an anonymous poster) says
<<By the time I reached the end, I was a little pissed I had spent
7.75$ on what I consider to be crap. The characterizations were
pedantic and
unbelievable. In fact, the characters were so 'out of character' I had
to remind myself (frequently) that this was supposed to be Picard and
Crusher in the story.>>
RL throws out facts only he has access to: (oops..wait, I seem to
re-call one or two high fives for this novella to ASC)
>Interestingly enough, this novella (Sun and Fun...?) by Lynn Lorton is
>being complimented by dozens of readers as a wonderful P/C romp.
I say, trying to be flippant:
So, because a herd is running in that direction, I should flow that way
too. I think not.
RL says, not trying too hard to veil his false plattitudes:
> I'm sorry you didn't like it, I really am. But lots of folks DID like
it.
I reply, trying to morph knowledge from logic and statistics into a
reasonable reply:
Lotsa of folkes liked it...this statement also has an opposite which is
most likely equally true...lotsa folkes didn't like it.
RL states:
>Lynn has always been a prolific writer. Her work has appeared in
>Eridani, Idylls and Involution, and while it was up, hers were always
>in the top 10 in downloads from the website.
I say:
So, because she is a prolific writer, and her work has appeared in your
zines, this excuses Sun and Fun?
RL says:
>I find myself in the role of John Ordover here, banging my head on the
>keyboard. One person is unhappy, and dozens are happy.
I reply:
I doubt I am the only 'unhappy' person with Sun and Fun. Other P/C fans
have indicated to me that if they had known I was thinking of purchasing
this story, they would have warned me off.
And what the hell does John Ordover have to do with your propensity to
self flagellate against inanimate objects?
RL states:
>But whose comments generate the most attention? The one unsatisfied
>customer
I say:
The one unsatisfied customer who said anything. Doesn't preclude that
they are no more people who thought this story should never have been
published as a novella. If this story had shown up on the web, I would
have read it, still thought it blew, but I never would have said
anything. I don't know the author, and unless she specifically asked me
for critical feedback, my piggies would never have touched a key to let
her know. But, I PAID money for this story. It wasn't free. IMO, that
gives me the right to bitch about it.
RL:
>(and posting this, I know there will be a dozen more (who >probably
>haven't even read it) who will chime in how "terrible" it was >-- LOL).
I say:
So...they paid good money too. And if they are unsatisfied customers,
then it is their right to complain, to warn others, to save the
unsuspecting..
RL:
>You can't please everyone; you try to please most people. But at $7.75
>(as compared to a $6.99 + tax novel from PocketBooks), you're not out
>of much money, are you?
Nice attitude. How much money does it take? It was my money. I didn't
like it. I'm complaining.
RL trying to explain Sun and Fun:
>P/C is one of the hardest things to publish because TPTB have done
>every thing they can to squelch it. And it's interpreted in different
>ways by different fans. Lynn just happens to have an interpretation
>that you didn't like.
I say, and I really didn't want to get into a critique:
Yes, Lynn had an interpretation that I didn't like. But let's just look
at P/C as a bell curve. There are certain characterizations that fall
within the largest part of the curve. These are variable, but have
certain underlying elements that are inscrutable. Lynn's fell at the far
end of this bell curve.
She took pieces of Picards personality...and blew them out of
proportion. She added elements that the man has never exhibited, and
totally left out other personality traits necessary to complete him.
Thereby replacing Picard with a facsimile that was a very annoying ghost
of who Picard really is.
She basically did the same thing with Beverly.
Her interactions between the two were like two teenagers. Not adults
who, although they have their quirks, are responsible and mature in
their interactions with each other.
RL thorws out a challenge:
>I'd love for you to go ahead and forge a novella, an answer if you will
>as to how YOU see the relationship, submit it to us, and we'll be glad
>to consider it for publication as well. We will gladly set it forth as
>an ORION PRESS fanzine, and then we'll let the readership judge your
>work by comparison.
I decline:
My work has been up for consideration for the last two years. It is
freely available on the web. I have been approached to do stories for
zines, but have thus far declined. I like to write P/C for the joy of
writing P/C. When I put a story on ASC or ASCEM, I feel like I am in
some way paying others back who have also posted their P/C to the web so
I could read it.
I will even admit that some of my early stuff was in the same class as
Sun and Fun, but hey...no one had to pay to read it.
1800whatever also says
<<Quite frankly, these are the same responses I get when reading
on-line
fanfiction. Know what the difference is...it's free on-line. I like it
being free.>>
RL attempts to psychoanalyze my motivations:
>Then I think that subconsciously you may have had a predisposition NOT
>to like the zine in the first place.
I had no predispositons whatsoever. I started to read it the same way I
start to read any P/C story...with anticipation.
RL stating the obvious:
>And sure, free is nice. Everyone
>in the Lord's creation knows that. But paper is not free. Copies are
>not free. Bindings are not free. Postage is not free. So zines are not
>free.
I reply (now I'm getting nasty and personal. Or, have I already done
that?)
I didn't say zines should be free. The reason I wrote this is really in
response to what I see as you being a big whiner about the death of
zines, and the death of Orion in particular. You tout the line that
zines are a superior quality writing compared to their on-line
counterparts. I say.."Bullshit!". There is crap in zines just as there
is crap on the net. The difference being I don't pay for on-line fic.
More snippage:
<<I will admit that the actual full length zines that I have bought
are,
for the most part, very good. But not ALL the stories contained in
these
tomes was great. Some were good...some were okay...and some made me go
"Hmmm...">>
RL goes for the sympathy vote:
>Frankly, we've limited ourselves on this newsgroup in recent months.
I, of course, give no quarter:
Get the cheese and crackers...here comes the whine....
>We're concentrating on our new digest format (which saves readers
>nearly 50% on the price of zines), and we're publishing zines right
>now in time for Shore Leave. In addition to Sun and Fun...?, we've
>recently published Imzadi (a Troi-Riker zine) and Antares 3 (TOS
>genzine). We're going to print Outpost 10 (our DS9 genzine's last
>issue, edited by Laura Taylor) on Tuesday, Into the Nexus (TOS
>novella) and Idylls 19 (TNG romance) in the coming week, and more in
>the weeks thereafter as we gear up for fandom's best convention.
I say, trying to be sincere:
I see this as you working toward a soltuion to your production cost
problem. I'm glad. I hope it works out for you.
RL states about the biggest cry I've seen from him: (but admittedly, I
don't read all his posts)
>I have to admit that I am hurt by some of the comments made here, and
>I'm just about to the point where I will leave this newsgroup and
>withdraw all ORION PRESS material from the ASC archives. I don't mean
>to sound childish, but it's obvious that this is not the market for
>our zines.
LOL...thought I'd put one of those in, because that's what this little
statement made me do. If ASC is not part of your market for your zines,
pray tell, what is your market?
I wasn't aware there was Orion Press material in the ASC archives. And
isn't that material in actuality the property of the auhtors who wrote
them?
Jeesh...give me a break.
Randy, in my original post I did not mention Orion or the zine in
particular. Of course, I realize from the tidbits of information I did
put in the post it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what
story in particular I was talking about.
You brought it all out in your reply, and I guess, in a way, I wanted
you to.
I've bought several zines from Orion. For the most part, I like them,
but still feel they are alot of money for what you get.
I recomend Fire and Ice I (a totally kick ass Beverly Crusher zine. Good
Job, Gwyn). I also recomend any Idylls since Althea became the editor.
Now, this is not a slam on the previous editor, it's just I haven't read
any non-Althea Idylls to be able to recomend them.
I know I have been a bitch in this, and I suppose the anonymity helped
forge some of what I've said. Is this a personal attack against you
Randy? <thinks> I'd like to say no, but some of what I said here is
personal. But I guess it goes back to what I perceive as your holier
than though, zines are the shit in fanfic writing attiutde. Reading Sun
and Fun catalyzed my resentment of that perception, and I guess that
resentment has focused on you.
Sorry. Thems the breaks. Sun and Fun sucked. I'm peeved I paid money for
it.
BTW, when will Idylls 19 be available?
anonymous heartless bitch
Gabrielle Lawson
Randy Landers wrote:
> Gabrielle Lawson says she charges exactly the cost of printing and
> shipping the zine. <<No more. No profit. No extra. It won't effect
> the next zine because the next scene costs only what it costs to print
> and send.>>
>
> Because she doesn't have contributors in her zines (she publishes her
> own work),
I've trusted my work to someone else before and not been satisfied with
the outcome (though I do forgive those responsible, it has made me
trust less). I *would* be against putting out someone else's work as
that's my time spent. Being a person with not enough time for writing
even, my time is worth money. If I work for someone else, I expect to
be paid for it. If I work for myself, that's a different story. I guess
that's why I don't do what you do, Randy. ;-)
> she doesn't have to charge more to cover those expenses.
I do have an artist now. I eat the cost of her zine. I simply pay for it
myself.
I pay for the cost of the one I give to Siddig El Fadil, too. I see that
as my
responsibility and my choice, respectivley, so it's not the readers
responsibility
to pay for. I guess I see it as a gift. But then, I don't have twenty
people to
give gifts to. I just have two.
> She also prints on demand whereas we have inventory we maintain on
> hand and in the hands of our convention agents. She doesn't hardly
> advertise her zine except here on the net, so she doesn't have those
> expenses. She doesn't do conventions so she saves a good chunk of
> money there.
Oh, and I do advertise a little beyond the net. Not to argue, just to let
others
know where they can advertise without cost, also. I advertised in the
newsletter
for Siddig El Fadil/Alexander Siddig's fan club and in the newsletter put
out
after the Weekend on the Promenade by Andy Robinson's and Rene
Auberjonois'
fan clubs. I sent in a notice to The New Monthly and that got some
attention. I post
on my web site and this newsgroup. And I take pamphlets (and possibly a
sample
copy--usually my own or a few extras I've printed up [at my own cost] for
selling)
at the few conventions I go to. I don't get a dealer table or anything.
Just myself
as a convention goer.
So yep, no cost to advertise for me, unless those zines I brought (a
handful at best) don't sell
(and the last two times I did it, they all sold).
Orion Press and I are apples and oranges. Two different ways, and
possible two different
philosophies, on putting out zines.
> I have to admit that I am hurt by some of the comments made here, and
> I'm just about to the point where I will leave this newsgroup and
> withdraw all ORION PRESS material from the ASC archives. I don't mean
> to sound childish, but it's obvious that this is not the market for
> our zines.
Why? I didn't see anyone targeting you or Orion Press. the Bevster
didn't name names. It's a general discussion about zines and Net as
far as I saw, so I don't understand your reaction. I don't hate Orion
Press
or you and while I haven't bought any of your zines (though I've read two)
I don't want to see you or anyone else just give up on this newsgroup.
I think many of the readers here are also buyers of fanzines. Or they
have
friends who are. Or they are convention goers. I think you have audience
here if not customers. It can't hurt to send a message to a newsgroup to
say
that you have a new fanzine out. You're right, I don't advertize much,
but
I don't turn down an opportunity to do so. This group is an opportunity.
It's
also a nice community for the most part. I hope you'll stay around.
Gabrielle Lawson
JWinterCNA wrote:
> >But I don't understand how there can be any extra at all. Wouldn't that,
> >technically,
> >be profit? And isn't that profit against the rules? Zines should cost only
> >what
> >they
> >cost to produce and send. No more.
>
> Technically, extra is profit. But, if you actively promote a zine, or if you
> foresee production costs going up before the run is through, you figure that
> in. Generally, it's a good idea, especially doing multiple zines, to add a
> little into the selling price to forestall any problems that come up later.
> Besides, when you add it all up in the end, you can do a five year run on a
> zine, realize you didn't take down the production costs for the last one, and
> the extra you make should net you a tank of gas for a small-to-midsize car and
> maybe a Happy Meal at McD's. That's it, and only if you're lucky. The zine
> will suck up any extras you put into the cost. It's inevitable. The goal of
> zine sales is not making a profit; it's treading water. Sure you do it for
> love, but you also enjoy not having a leaky wallet.
I guess that's the deal, or part of it anyway. I don't "actively promote." I'm
pretty passive in it really. I put out a notice and wait to see if any orders come
in. I let my writing stand on its own and that, in the end, brings in more orders
than what little advertising I do. Most of my orders are from people who read
me online or who chanced one story in print and decided to order more. I think
it's a reliable, if not lucrative system, and being the time-and-money-constrained
individual that I am, I'm content with it.
Jungle Kitty
- Convenience. I have to take my laptop on business trips anyway so the
smut is with me. Can't see hauling a bunch of zines around, esp. when
they aren't going to suddenly sprout new stories. My luggage is heavy
enough as is.
- Expense. Virtually none, since I pay for web access for business.
- New stories *every* *day*!
- Variety. The net allows me to experience new ideas and pairings,
without kicking myself later for having shelled out hard, cold cash,
only to discover that something bores me. And it seems to me that the
zine world has shrunk so that it's down to only the most popular themes
and pairings. The net is the home for Anything Goes!
- Sense of community. Have made many Trek friends through the net,
almost none through zines (and those I have made friends with have
email). If you're relying on zines for your Treksmut community, you
can't really have a "live" convo unless you attend a con. And how many
of those can you afford to go to each year?
- Readability. I've seen way too many zines that are laid out in a way
that just give me a headache. Editors who are in love with fonts and
fussy layouts, without understanding functionality. With the net, I set
my own preferred presentation.
- Less clutter in my den and saves trees. Unless I give a zine away
(which I won't do if it contains a story I really like), it takes up
space, including the stories I don't like. Yeah, I guess I could tear
them out, but... nah. With net stories, I print out and keep only those
I really like. I could even store them on a zip disk and not deal with
paper at all.
- Inspiration. Look at the wonderful stories that have come about
because of the discussions and challenges on the net. I doubt that
stories like "Legends of K/S," revenge fic, and the gift challenge could
have come about in the zine world. Too long between "postings."
- Information. The NGs keep me posted on Trekkish goings-on, so there's
more than "just" fanfic. And we even occasionally discuss things outside
of Trek!
- New blood. On the net, we see newcomers all the time. My experience in
the zine world has been that, compared to the net, it's a fairly closed
environment. Before I was involved in Treksmut on the net, I approached
a zine dealer at a con. He was very nasty and suspicious. Didn't want to
sell me anything because he didn't know me. I wasn't a member of his
club.
- Lots, *lots*, LOTS more feedback
--
Jungle Kitty
http://www.accesscom.com/~jkitty
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, I'm a Kirkologist, and I'm OK,
It's Kirk all night, and it's Kirk all day.
He wears gold shirts, he's got tight pants,
And women by the score.
He thrills his many shipmates
With EVEs galore.
Oh, I'm a Kirkologist, and I'm OK...
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Stephen Ratliff
Mr or Mrs, or perhaps Miss, call18...@hotmail.com, I direct you to the
FAQ, the Mannerly Art of Critique. I have not seen such behavior on this
group in quite some time.
If you don't like Mr. Landers's zine, fine. You want to complain, there
are a couple of appropiate ways to do it:
1) Write a letter to Mr. Landers telling him of your problems,
RESPECTFULLY.
2) Write and post a scholarly review (That is one that analysizes why it
didn't work) of the said zine, taking into account that some people may
disagree with your reasoning (see FAQ: The Mannerly Art of Disagreement)
Also, please note that your e-mail address does not lend itself to people
taking you seriously.
This has been posted and mailed.
Stephen
--
Stephen Ratliff FAQ Maintainer: http://www.runet.edu/~sratliff/FAQs
"Doesn't anyone Read the FAQ?" -- Me after several ASC debates.
Jungle Kitty
> Also, please note that your e-mail address does not lend itself to
> people
> taking you seriously.
Begging to differ, but I took it seriously and responded that way. I
thought 1800 raised some good questions about the two fanfic media. RL
was the one who chose to make it specific to Orion Press and that
particular story. I thought 1800's response was not inappropriate in
tone or content. The part of this discussion that appalled me was when
RL suggested that until 1800 had written a story "good enough" to appear
in an Orion Press zine, s/he had no right to express an opinion about
Sun & Fun.
Maybe I'm bringing too much Real Life to this, but in my world, treating
a paying customer with contempt is not the best way for a merchant to
stay in business.
Just my two strips of latinum.
--
Jungle Kitty
http://www.accesscom.com/~jkitty
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Why Jungle Kitty Is Always So Tired
(sung to the tune of "Family Tradition" with thanks to Hank, Jr.)
I say it's just my muse, resistance ain't no use
When the captain wants to work up some friction.
If I get stoned and write all night long,
It's just a Treksmut tradition.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Laura Taylor
> RL said:
> >Quite. All we want to do is break even. By shutting down our free fan
> >fiction web sites, we've saved over $175 a month because of the
> >gigabytes of disk space and bandwidth we no longer have to pay for.
> >And if people want our TNG, DS9 and VOY fan fiction, all they have to
> >do is pony up around $10 for the latest issue of our zines.
>
> I say:
> Zines from Orion are considerably more than $10.
He said 'the *latest* issues' (emphasis mine). The older 'zines, yes,
they're much more expensive. Since the change to the new format,
however, prices have gone waaay down. OUTPOST 10, at 140+ pages, will be
less than $11.
> RL throws out facts only he has access to: (oops..wait, I seem to
> re-call one or two high fives for this novella to ASC)
> >Interestingly enough, this novella (Sun and Fun...?) by Lynn Lorton is
> >being complimented by dozens of readers as a wonderful P/C romp.
>
> I say, trying to be flippant:
> So, because a herd is running in that direction, I should flow that way
> too. I think not.
I say, with equal flippance:
Maybe there's a wolf in the other direction.
> I say:
> The one unsatisfied customer who said anything. Doesn't preclude that
> they are no more people who thought this story should never have been
> published as a novella. If this story had shown up on the web, I would
> have read it, still thought it blew, but I never would have said
> anything. I don't know the author, and unless she specifically asked me
> for critical feedback, my piggies would never have touched a key to let
> her know. But, I PAID money for this story. It wasn't free. IMO, that
> gives me the right to bitch about it.
And here we get back to that old albatross, the debate about feedback.
You assumed an alias so you could (paraphrasing your words) be more
honestly critical, you posted your comments to ASC even though they
concern a 'zine, and your vague criticism is valuable how? Did it occur
to you that, by directing your criticism to the source of your
irritation, you might actually have a chance of preventing another such
waste of money? If you think the money you spent was wasted, why didn't
you say so directly to Randy and/or the author? Why tell ASC, if you
won't even be specific about what 'zine you think your money was wasted on?
> I say:
> So...they paid good money too. And if they are unsatisfied customers,
> then it is their right to complain, to warn others, to save the
> unsuspecting..
Yet you couched your complaint in such vague language you really weren't
warning anybody away from the specific 'zine you're complaining about.
Instead, you're saying that 'zines are a waste of money. Again, how is
this constructive?
> Nice attitude. How much money does it take? It was my money. I didn't
> like it. I'm complaining.
You complained to ASC. As far as I can tell, you didn't complain to
Randy or the author. If you'd bought a book and discovered it was a
waste of money, would you complain to your local librarian?
> I reply (now I'm getting nasty and personal. Or, have I already done
> that?)
> I didn't say zines should be free. The reason I wrote this is really in
> response to what I see as you being a big whiner about the death of
> zines, and the death of Orion in particular.
<deep breath>
Randy, if you're reading, s/he's got a point. I'm saying this as one of
your editors and as someone who's trying to keep her feet firmly planted
in both ASC and 'zine fanfic.
Several people have approached me and made similar remarks about
your...er...attitude toward ASC. These people, people whose opinions I
respect and whose regard I value, have expressed discomfort with
submitting to and/or purchasing Orion Press 'zines because of the
vitriol you've expressed about 'Net-based fanfic. As I think you know, I
agree with you *to a point*. However, I also know that ASC is a
potentially huge market that needs to be tapped, not alienated. It hurts
me to hear, "Well, I'll buy the 'zine, but only because you're my friend."
I came to Orion Press through ASC. Six of the 8 contributors to OUTPOST
10 are ASC denizens. Many of the people I know who will buy OUTPOST 10,
despite your opinions about ASC and 'Net-based fanfic, are regular ASC
readers and writers. When you rant and rave about how the 'Net is
killing 'zine fanfic, I have to say, "The hell it is, I wouldn't even
*have* a 'zine for you to publish without ASC."
Randy, I'm not saying this here (as opposed to private e-mail) to
embarrass you or piss you off, I'm saying it here because I hope you'll
hear me better. Yes, the Internet has hurt Orion Press' sales. But
you're not helping matters at all. I don't know how this will come to
pass, but there has got to be a way for both to happily co-exist.
> LOL...thought I'd put one of those in, because that's what this little
> statement made me do. If ASC is not part of your market for your zines,
> pray tell, what is your market?
Again, Randy, as much as I find his/her general tone distasteful, s/he's
got a point. We can't guarantee that the story-by-story quality of
'zines will satisfy everyone, especially as the accessibility of the
'Net makes people more discriminating with their spare change. Perhaps
genzines will have to make way for themed 'zines or novellas. Perhaps,
speaking particularly of Orion Press, samples of new 'zines should be
available on the Web site so a potential buyer can decide in advance if
the 'zine is worth his/her money. I don't know, I'm only typing what
comes into my head. What is important--what is essential to the survival
of 'zines, IMO--is that ASC be recognized as a wellspring of readers
*and* writers of 'zine fanfic.
Laura
--
=====
"When I grow up, I'm gonna be an aardvark."
--Drew Taylor
Randy Landers
<<The part of this discussion that appalled me was when
RL suggested that until 1800 had written a story "good enough" to
appear
in an Orion Press zine, s/he had no right to express an opinion about
Sun & Fun. >>
Hardly! I am stating that if you see the characters in a different
light than was portrayed in SUN AND FUN, write me a novella and I'll
be GLAD to consider it for publication. Please don't read between the
lines. There's nothing there.
Randy Landers
<<You assumed an alias so you could (paraphrasing your words) be more
honestly critical, you posted your comments to ASC even though they
concern a 'zine, and your vague criticism is valuable how? Did it
occur
to you that, by directing your criticism to the source of your
irritation, you might actually have a chance of preventing another
such
waste of money? If you think the money you spent was wasted, why
didn't
you say so directly to Randy and/or the author? Why tell ASC, if you
won't even be specific about what 'zine you think your money was
wasted on?>>
Quite. As a matter of fact, I hadn't even logged on lately, but this
review was forwarded to me with "I can't believe she's saying this
about SUN AND FUN!" Obviously it wasn't all that hard to figure out
which new Picard/Crusher zine is available for $7.75 when that's an
amazingly low price.
What disturbs me is that I've received no email from this anonymous
P/C author who didn't like Lynn's work. I had to be told from someone
else how one of my zines was being trashed in the newsgroup.
Laura also says
<<Several people have approached me and made similar remarks about
your...er...attitude toward ASC. These people, people whose opinions I
respect and whose regard I value, have expressed discomfort with
submitting to and/or purchasing Orion Press 'zines because of the
vitriol you've expressed about 'Net-based fanfic. As I think you know,
I
agree with you *to a point*. However, I also know that ASC is a
potentially huge market that needs to be tapped, not alienated. It
hurts
me to hear, "Well, I'll buy the 'zine, but only because you're my
friend.">>
Yeah, that hurts me, too. I've got a killer zine in ANTARES 3 and the
folks who are buying it are buying not because it's a good issue, but
out of friendship for ye publisher. And that's not why I publish
zines.
Laura says
<<I came to Orion Press through ASC. Six of the 8 contributors to
OUTPOST 10 are ASC denizens. Many of the people I know who will buy
OUTPOST 10, despite your opinions about ASC and 'Net-based fanfic, are
regular ASC readers and writers. When you rant and rave about how the
'Net is killing 'zine fanfic, I have to say, "The hell it is, I
wouldn't even
*have* a 'zine for you to publish without ASC." >>
That is a good point I will readily concede. I have been increasingly
critical of the fiction here on ASC mainly because more and more of
the material has been sexually explicit as of late (there is an ASCEM,
you know) and because more and more of the fiction is getting away
from what I love in Star Trek (as I asserted what, three months ago?).
However, there is clearly opposition to zines here (and even the
posting of the old K/S stories from long out of print fanzines). One
of the critics of that debate is one of the critics in this debate.
Laura says
<<Randy, I'm not saying this here (as opposed to private e-mail) to
embarrass you or piss you off, I'm saying it here because I hope
you'll
hear me better. Yes, the Internet has hurt Orion Press' sales. But
you're not helping matters at all. I don't know how this will come to
pass, but there has got to be a way for both to happily co-exist.>>
I agree. We tried the free webfic site, and that didn't work. Like I
said repeatedly, if only 1/10th of the visitors to the website had
bought one zine per year, those websites would still be up and running
and available. By posting the material to the websites three years
after publication, we lost sales from folks who are content to go
through our 40MB of material rather than buy a single zine. I would
love for someone to figure out how to make print media and the
internet work. I suspect that PocketBooks and the other major
publishers would be interested as well, but I'm not sure that it's
ever going to happen. But, hey, if anyone's got a suggestion, I'll be
glad to entertain it.
Laura says
<<We can't guarantee that the story-by-story quality of
'zines will satisfy everyone, especially as the accessibility of the
'Net makes people more discriminating with their spare change. Perhaps
genzines will have to make way for themed 'zines or novellas. Perhaps,
speaking particularly of Orion Press, samples of new 'zines should be
available on the Web site so a potential buyer can decide in advance
if
the 'zine is worth his/her money. I don't know, I'm only typing what
comes into my head. What is important--what is essential to the
survival
of 'zines, IMO--is that ASC be recognized as a wellspring of readers
*and* writers of 'zine fanfic.>>
Quite true. We cannot guarantee that every one will like every story
or even like half of them. And we are moving into the themed zines and
novellas. We've got a TNG romance zine, a TNG Picard/Crusher zine, a
TNG Riker zine, a TNG hurt-comfort zine. But we don't have a TNG
genzine anymore. Sadly, we're going to lose ANTARES (TOS genzine) and
OUTPOST (DS9 genzines), but our novella-lengthed projects are looking
good. And in addition to a VOY genzine (DELTA QUADRANT), we've added a
relationship zine (WAYFARERS), a few one-shots, and I'm considering a
few character-specific relationship zines.
And we ARE getting folks from here interested in zines and vice versa.
We're also getting contributors from here interested in zines and vice
versa. That's why we haven't abandoned ASC thus far.
But the VAST majority of our sales are from folks who don't want ASC
or newsgroups or Internet fiction. We estimate that only 20% of our
readership are active readers here or in ASCEM, and we need to cater
to them as well.
I would be willing to post excerpts from our releases here, but I'm
afraid of the following:
1) Some folks will consider it flagrant advertising.
2) Some contributors will consider it an endorsement to post their
fiction freely here.
3) Some folks will demand (rudely, I might add) that we not post
incomplete stories here.
Laura, give me your thoughts on this -- I'd really like to know.
Randy Landers
<<, I PAID money for this story. It wasn't free. IMO, that gives me
the right to bitch about it.>>
Then why didn't you come to me with this? Why did I learn of it from a
third party that it had been posted in ASC several days ago?
I've been taken to task before for a zine or two dozen--let's not even
get started about the thrashing I received for THUNDER'S WRATH and
STARDATE 11. But I've never been this rudely treated in nearly twenty
years. Even the verbal and written thrashings I received for those two
projects did not question my commitment to fandom, to fan fiction.
Seriously, I would have gratefully received your letter of comment,
would have forwarded it to Lynn Lorton and discussed the matter with
her. We would have come up with a response, and probably apologized
and refunded your money. But you didn't offer us that opportunity, did
you?
1800whine also says
<<Yes, Lynn had an interpretation that I didn't like. But let's just
look
at P/C as a bell curve. There are certain characterizations that fall
within the largest part of the curve. These are variable, but have
certain underlying elements that are inscrutable. Lynn's fell at the
far
end of this bell curve.
<<She took pieces of Picards personality...and blew them out of
proportion. She added elements that the man has never exhibited, and
totally left out other personality traits necessary to complete him.
Thereby replacing Picard with a facsimile that was a very annoying
ghost
of who Picard really is.
<<She basically did the same thing with Beverly.
<<Her interactions between the two were like two teenagers. Not adults
who, although they have their quirks, are responsible and mature in
their interactions with each other.>>
Now, to me, this would have been an acceptable letter of comment. It's
one that is critical of the story in a way that I can address with the
author as the publisher of that zine. I wish you had afford me the
courtesy of emailing me THIS critique. This would have been welcome,
in fact, even if Lynn or I don't agree with it.
But that's not what you did. Further, the post that I pulled this
excerpt from was one of the most hateful things I've ever seen posted
here in, what, four years of being here?
1800whine says
<<what I see as you being a big whiner about the death of
zines, and the death of Orion in particular. You tout the line that
zines are a superior quality writing compared to their on-line
counterparts. I say.."Bullshit!". There is crap in zines just as there
is crap on the net. The difference being I don't pay for on-line
fic.>>
For someone who says that the issue is the quality of the stories, you
keep bringing up the price of zines. It's throughout your post.
But to address your criticism of zines being "superior quality
writing" compared to the material published in this newsgroup, I would
point out the following:
1) We published Lynn and Mary's BETRAYED which was FIRST published in
this newsgroup.
2) We have just published two zines which contained material first
published in this newsgroup. One of the stories was posted here
unbeknownst to me, and it was one of my favorite stories. I was
considering pulling it, but I didn't.
3) 8 out of 10 contributors (including Editor Laura Taylor) of OUTPOST
are regulars in this newsgroup.
4) We have posted nearly 10MB of material to this newsgroup, and many
of our contributors continue to do so.
Yes, I'm biased toward zines. Hell, yes. I publish them. I cut my
teeth on them. I've been doing them for twenty years. But unlike you,
I've never, NEVER trashed anyone's story on this newsgroup.
As far as the rest of your diatribe goes, I'll have to decline to
comment further as any response would probably be ignored anyways.
Please return your copy of SUN AND FUN, and I'll personally see to it
that you receive a refund.
Jungle Kitty
> That is a good point I will readily concede. I have been increasingly
> critical of the fiction here on ASC mainly because more and more of
> the material has been sexually explicit as of late (there is an ASCEM,
> you know)
AFAIK, sexually explicit material is allowed on ASC, as long as it is
Trek-related. And there are people who do not have access to ASCEM. Like
you, Randy, we are seeking as large an audience as possible.
> and because more and more of the fiction is getting away
> from what I love in Star Trek (as I asserted what, three months ago?).
And ASC exists only to proliferate what Randy Landers loves about Star
Trek? Again, AFAIK, there's plenty of room for all. As someone
eventually tells everyone who complains about "too much of this and not
enough of that:" If you don't see what you like, write it. Isn't that
what you suggest to 1800?
>
> However, there is clearly opposition to zines here (and even the
> posting of the old K/S stories from long out of print fanzines). One
> of the critics of that debate is one of the critics in this debate.
Yep, that's me. I guess I'm only allowed to oppose one thing a month.
News to me. But since Randy has chosen to bring up my attitude to zines,
I have to clarify. I have never read an Orion Press zine. I do not blame
OP or RL or any of his eds for my experiences with other zine folk. My
feelings toward Orion Press arise solely out of what I see here on the
NG, and, in the name of staying OT, that is what I have chosen to
address.
I'll tell you what I dislike that is relevant to *this* thread--the
continual use of ASC by Orion Press for free advertising--i.e., the
constant listing of upcoming zines under the guise of responding to
posts, the pleas for us to part with our hard-earned cash to keep OP
going, and the scolding we receive for not buying zines. Try
participating in the group in some role other than salesman, Randy, and
I'll be glad to lend credence to what you have to say.
--
Jungle Kitty
http://www.accesscom.com/~jkitty
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, I'm a Kirkologist, and I'm OK,
Randy Landers
<<And ASC exists only to proliferate what Randy Landers loves about
Star
Trek? Again, AFAIK, there's plenty of room for all. As someone
eventually tells everyone who complains about "too much of this and
not
enough of that:" If you don't see what you like, write it. Isn't that
what you suggest to 1800?>>
Uh, I did. In fact, I posted CHEKOV'S ENTERPRISE to this newsgroup,
posted it on our website and published it as a zine. I've also posted
every story I've ever written to ASC.
She also added
<<I'll tell you what I dislike that is relevant to *this* thread--the
continual use of ASC by Orion Press for free advertising--I.e., the
constant listing of upcoming zines under the guise of responding to
posts, the pleas for us to part with our hard-earned cash to keep OP
going, and the scolding we receive for not buying zines. Try
participating in the group in some role other than salesman, Randy,
and
I'll be glad to lend credence to what you have to say>>
Let's see, we've posted over 10MB to this newsgroup, mainly comprising
a large assortment of TOS fiction in the ASC archives. If you're not
aware of that, hey, I'm sorry I even mentioned it. Oops. There I go
advertising our stuff again.
But you have saved me the trouble of sparing the ASC any more updates
on our fanzines. It actually is a lot of work, and I never really was
comfortable about it, so I won't intrude here any longer.
And Laura? If you're there? See what I mean about posting material
from your zine here? Some folks WILL see it as blatant advertising.
Jungle Kitty has proved my point perfectly.
Jungle Kitty
> And Laura? If you're there? See what I mean about posting material
> from your zine here? Some folks WILL see it as blatant advertising.
> Jungle Kitty has proved my point perfectly.
Randy, posting stories isn't advertising, and I never said it was. "The
constant listing of upcoming zines under the guise of responding to
posts, the pleas for us to part with our hard-earned cash to keep OP
going, and the scolding we receive for not buying zines" is, IMO.
Pamela
Randy Landers wrote in message
<7itakr$fl9$1...@nntp5.atl.mindspring.net>...
>I would be willing to post excerpts from our releases here, but I'm
>afraid of the following:
>
>1) Some folks will consider it flagrant advertising.
>2) Some contributors will consider it an endorsement to post their
>fiction freely here.
>3) Some folks will demand (rudely, I might add) that we not post
>incomplete stories here.
>
>Laura, give me your thoughts on this -- I'd really like to know.
Mr. Landers,
Though I'm not Laura, I do have an inquiry, and not just for you but
for anyone out there. Where do you find these zines? I do not live
close to cities that have those huge functions with Star Trek and
other sci-fi series stars making appearances, forgive me it's 2:45 in
the morning and I can't for the life of me think of the word for these
functions. I knew zines existed but how to purchase them, or where to
find a list with a summary of stories included, I was lost. No, I am
lost. I'd love to find a zine or two to purchase. I love reading
fanfic and as I don't have a lap top computer I can't take the stories
I get from ASC or ASCEM with me unless I print them out. Lots of time
I don't have the time to do that. I'd love to be able to read while
on the road, or sitting at one of the endless T-Ball games, which I
love going to, but still there's always time to read a paragraph or 2.
Where do you advertise your zines, where are most zines advertised?
If nothing else maybe an ad in the form of an e-mail to your favorite
newsgroup. This is all new to me and I'm clueless here. I'd just
like to know where to get info about zines.
See, this discussion has piqued at least one interested party.
Thanks for listening,
Pam
me107
Just to offer my two pennies.
Quality of fanzines
Yes, some people won't agree with the way some authors characterise
particular relationships or people. I haven't read SUN & FUN, so I can't
comment personnally on this zine. And even if I had, I wouldn't post it
to the ASC. If I don't like a story, be it in a zine or on the net - and
I read a bit of both - then I take it up with the author or the
publisher.
It's completely unfair to slate a particular author on the ASC like
that. Fine, you may not like author x's work. That's going to be the
same whether or not they posted their work on the net or in a fanzine.
The only difference is going to be whether you spent 2p downloading it
or £10 (sorry, $) buying it. This is the same if you go into a shop and
buy a book. You don't stand in the shop, read it cover to cover, and
then decide to buy it. You read a review, or you read the back of the
cover to get a little idea of the plot.
I've read a couple of reviews in the papers that sounded great. I've
gone and brought the book, or got it out of the library. And I've
thought 'what a load of....[you get the idea]'. What can I say? You take
you chance with everything you buy. It's not a fanzine publisher problem
alone. You maybe have a gripe to your friends. You DO NOT stand in the
middle of the shop or library and shout out 'I think that book x is a
etc etc.'
I've purchased a couple of fanzines from OP, and I will probably do so
in the future. I like a lot of their fic. I don't like other bits. I
take my chances. Which brings me onto the second point...
Cost of fanzines.
Okay. Yes, fanzines are more expensive compared to books that I could go
out and buy in the highstreet (though not by that much - judging from
the comments that are going on here anyone would think we were talking
about breaking the bank.) I can accept that. Most of the publishers of
fanzines can't push costs down as much Pocket books, or whoever. That's
to be expected.
Add in postage and so on (I live in the UK, and as most of the stuff
comes from the US...) and it does become more expensive. But that isn't
a thing that publishers can deal with. It's not their fault that it cost
$x extra to send to the UK. Yes, obviously, it makes it more expensive
for me. So I'll only buy those fanzines that I really want. If the
publishers can find ways of cutting the cost, great.
Let's just stay calm.
Matt
Randy Landers wrote:
>
> 1800whine says
> <<, I PAID money for this story. It wasn't free. IMO, that gives me
> the right to bitch about it.>>
>
> Then why didn't you come to me with this? Why did I learn of it from a
> third party that it had been posted in ASC several days ago?
>
> I've been taken to task before for a zine or two dozen--let's not even
> get started about the thrashing I received for THUNDER'S WRATH and
> STARDATE 11. But I've never been this rudely treated in nearly twenty
> years. Even the verbal and written thrashings I received for those two
> projects did not question my commitment to fandom, to fan fiction.
>
> Seriously, I would have gratefully received your letter of comment,
> would have forwarded it to Lynn Lorton and discussed the matter with
> her. We would have come up with a response, and probably apologized
> and refunded your money. But you didn't offer us that opportunity, did
> you?
>
> 1800whine also says
> <<Yes, Lynn had an interpretation that I didn't like. But let's just
> look
> at P/C as a bell curve. There are certain characterizations that fall
> within the largest part of the curve. These are variable, but have
> certain underlying elements that are inscrutable. Lynn's fell at the
> far
> end of this bell curve.
>
> <<She took pieces of Picards personality...and blew them out of
> proportion. She added elements that the man has never exhibited, and
> totally left out other personality traits necessary to complete him.
> Thereby replacing Picard with a facsimile that was a very annoying
> ghost
> of who Picard really is.
>
> <<She basically did the same thing with Beverly.
>
> <<Her interactions between the two were like two teenagers. Not adults
> who, although they have their quirks, are responsible and mature in
> their interactions with each other.>>
>
> Now, to me, this would have been an acceptable letter of comment. It's
> one that is critical of the story in a way that I can address with the
> author as the publisher of that zine. I wish you had afford me the
> courtesy of emailing me THIS critique. This would have been welcome,
> in fact, even if Lynn or I don't agree with it.
>
> But that's not what you did. Further, the post that I pulled this
> excerpt from was one of the most hateful things I've ever seen posted
> here in, what, four years of being here?
>
> 1800whine says
> <<what I see as you being a big whiner about the death of
> zines, and the death of Orion in particular. You tout the line that
> zines are a superior quality writing compared to their on-line
> counterparts. I say.."Bullshit!". There is crap in zines just as there
> is crap on the net. The difference being I don't pay for on-line
> fic.>>
>
> For someone who says that the issue is the quality of the stories, you
> keep bringing up the price of zines. It's throughout your post.
>
> But to address your criticism of zines being "superior quality
> writing" compared to the material published in this newsgroup, I would
> point out the following:
>
> 1) We published Lynn and Mary's BETRAYED which was FIRST published in
> this newsgroup.
>
> 2) We have just published two zines which contained material first
> published in this newsgroup. One of the stories was posted here
> unbeknownst to me, and it was one of my favorite stories. I was
> considering pulling it, but I didn't.
>
> 3) 8 out of 10 contributors (including Editor Laura Taylor) of OUTPOST
> are regulars in this newsgroup.
>
> 4) We have posted nearly 10MB of material to this newsgroup, and many
> of our contributors continue to do so.
>
> Yes, I'm biased toward zines. Hell, yes. I publish them. I cut my
> teeth on them. I've been doing them for twenty years. But unlike you,
> I've never, NEVER trashed anyone's story on this newsgroup.
>
> As far as the rest of your diatribe goes, I'll have to decline to
> comment further as any response would probably be ignored anyways.
>
> Please return your copy of SUN AND FUN, and I'll personally see to it
> that you receive a refund.
>
Biffan
>afraid of the following:
>
>1) Some folks will consider it flagrant advertising.
>2) Some contributors will consider it an endorsement to post their
>fiction freely here.
>3) Some folks will demand (rudely, I might add) that we not post
>incomplete stories here.
>
>Laura, give me your thoughts on this -- I'd really like to know.
I'm not Laura, nor do I play her on television, but I will offer this
compromise. You list current zines available on your webpage - why not place
excerpts (3-4 paragraphs to a page) on this site, perhaps linked from the
general catalog? This way, those looking for zine info have it, but it doesn't
post incomplete stories to ASC. You can post a notice to ASC when a new zine is
listed and linked, so interested parties can go to your site and look. Granted,
it means more upload space for the page, but it makes a permanent catalog, and
may draw in more buyers.
Just my $1.67 (inflation, you know!)
Biffan
Biffan
>for anyone out there. Where do you find these zines?
> I knew zines existed but how to purchase them, or where to
>find a list with a summary of stories included, I was lost. No, I am
>lost. I'd love to find a zine or two to purchase.
Some suggestions, since you do have 'net access:
http://members.aol.com/ksnicholas/fanfic/fanzine.html
(Granted, some of the links are old and out of date - Randy's for one! - there
is still a lot of good information here, as well as links to on-line fan
fiction of all sorts!)
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bentley/fanfic/fanfic.html
http://www.nas.com/~lknight/index.html
http://members.aol.com/UnicrnPrs/press.htm
Hope this helps!
Biffan
Unzadi
>light than was portrayed in SUN AND FUN, write me a novella and I'll
>be GLAD to consider it for publication. Please don't read between the
>lines. There's nothing there.
>
By all means, if a zine (or net) story isn't showing the characters in the way
you, the reader, see them, then write your own view and submit or post it.
Case in point. Imzadi, or Riker/Troi fanfic is popular. However, I don't see
the pair as a viable romantic couple. I write stories that go in a different
vein, both on the net and for various zine publishers.
When I heard of Orion's plans for an Imzadi zine, I contacted the editor, and
pitched my view. Now I have one story and two poems in this zine, which I am
happy to recommend to any fan of Riker and/or Troi. I'm proud to be associated
with this project. Take my word when I say that Orion is open to new and
different ideas. If you have one, go for it.
Anna C. Bowling
Friends don't let friends write bad fanfic!
Chamber of the Warrior Queen
http://members.aol.com/unzadi
Laura Taylor
>
> Randy Landers wrote:
>
> > And Laura? If you're there? See what I mean about posting material
> > from your zine here? Some folks WILL see it as blatant advertising.
> > Jungle Kitty has proved my point perfectly.
>
> Randy, posting stories isn't advertising, and I never said it was. "The
> constant listing of upcoming zines under the guise of responding to
> posts, the pleas for us to part with our hard-earned cash to keep OP
> going, and the scolding we receive for not buying zines" is, IMO.
Admittedly, Randy could be a bit more subtle in his advertising, but how
many of us can say we've never used a discussion thread to tout our own
works? On occasion, someone will post an individual message saying,
"Read this story and send me feedback!," but for the most part the
'shameless self-promotion' I see takes place in discussion threads.
So, if Randy has to stop mentioning Orion Press 'zines in anything but
individual posts marked as 'ADV', does that mean the rest of us can't
mention our stories and 'zines in these discussions as well?
Laura Taylor
> Though I'm not Laura, I do have an inquiry, and not just for you but
> for anyone out there. Where do you find these zines?
Although I may be raising Jungle Kitty's ire by saying this, the Web
site for Orion Press is http://www.mindspring.com/~randylanders/ All the
information you need on ordering their 'zines (from all series) is
there. There's also Lyric's Definitive Guide to Fan Fiction page, which
includes some links to 'zine 'retailers': http://www.bitbase.cnchost.com/st_fanfic/home.htm
Laura
PS--as you know, though, Pam, you're getting a copy of OUTPOST 10 anyway :-)
Laura Taylor
>
> Laura Taylor says
> Yeah, that hurts me, too. I've got a killer zine in ANTARES 3 and the
> folks who are buying it are buying not because it's a good issue, but
> out of friendship for ye publisher.
That particular distinction could be helped if they had some inkling of
its quality before buying. I'd like to say that my friends will order
the 'zines I edit or write for because they *know* I'm a kick-ass editor
and writer, but my monstrous ego only goes so far.
> That is a good point I will readily concede. I have been increasingly
> critical of the fiction here on ASC mainly because more and more of
> the material has been sexually explicit as of late (there is an ASCEM,
> you know) and because more and more of the fiction is getting away
> from what I love in Star Trek (as I asserted what, three months ago?).
Well, I happen to despise the tripe flooding bookstores these days
thanks to megaconglomerate publishing houses, but every now and then I
come across a true gem (Arthur Golden's _Memoirs of a Geisha_ the latest
such discovery <G>). It's those gems that keep me going to bookstores.
Fanfic gems will keep me coming to ASC for the same reason.
> But the VAST majority of our sales are from folks who don't want ASC
> or newsgroups or Internet fiction. We estimate that only 20% of our
> readership are active readers here or in ASCEM, and we need to cater
> to them as well.
I wouldn't say 'as well'--I'd say we need to appeal (not 'cater', IMO)
to them, period. Sales are dropping precipitously, as you have said on
several occasions. Apparently those loyal purchasers who shun the 'Net
aren't quite so loyal any more.
> I would be willing to post excerpts from our releases here, but I'm
> afraid of the following:
>
> 1) Some folks will consider it flagrant advertising.
I've seen others do it (albeit generally to advertize a Web site). The
people who object will just have to get over it. Advertizing on ASC is
not going to cause the readership of ASC to drop significantly, nor will
the pool of ASC contributors decline to the point that the NG will have
to fold. As long as it pertains to Star Trek fanfic, it has a place on ASC.
> 2) Some contributors will consider it an endorsement to post their
> fiction freely here.
Then make it explicitly clear in advance they are *not* to do that.
> 3) Some folks will demand (rudely, I might add) that we not post
> incomplete stories here.
So what? Incomplete stories are posted here all the time. Hell, I've
done it myself more times than I care to count.
If you're really that reluctant to do this on ASC, why not post the
story snippets on the Web page, then post an advertisement on ASC
alerting readers where to go to read the snippets and get more
information on ordering 'zines?
Wildcat
> That is a good point I will readily concede. I have been increasingly
> critical of the fiction here on ASC mainly because more and more of
> the material has been sexually explicit as of late (there is an ASCEM,
> you know) and because more and more of the fiction is getting away
> from what I love in Star Trek (as I asserted what, three months ago?).
There's an ASCA too, you know. My understanding of the three ng's was
that ASCA exists for the stuff you would let your children read (hence
the "all-ages" designation), ASCEM exists for the sexually explicit
stories (and I know that I have posted stories there that weren't
sexually explicit, but since I consider myself a "regular" and the
stories are part of a continuing storyline, I do it anyway), and ASC
exists for EVERYONE.
Is this wrong?
By the way, I really don't want to see us rehash whether the ng is
"getting away from Star Trek." IMO, if a writer creates a Trek story,
who can tell hir that hir story isn't "Trek"? Obviously, at least one
person thought that it *was*. You can address individual issues per
story such as characterization, plot, and so forth, but to make a
sweeping statement such as "your story shouldn't be here because it's
getting away from what I love in Star Trek" just doesn't work for me.
Wildcat
Pamela
I am grateful for your information. Thanks! I'll be checking out
these sights. This is a new side of fanfic for me, I've enjoyed,
immensely, what I've read on ASC and ASCEM. Everyone here is so
wonderful and supportive of one another, even when opinions differ. I
love doing feedback and the newsgroups offer me a chance to talk to
the authors. They are so talented!!
Thanks again.
Pam
Biffan wrote in message
<19990531082428...@ng-fp1.aol.com>...
Pamela
>
>PS--as you know, though, Pam, you're getting a copy of OUTPOST 10
anyway :-)
And I can hardly wait, Laura!! This'll be my first zine and I gotta
tell ya I'm just all atingle.
This has been an interesting thread. I've enjoyed all Points of view.
They are diverse enough to allow me to see from all sides of the coin.
As I have no past experience with zines I can't add much here. I just
thought it would be fun to experience a zine once or twice.
Thanks Laura!!
Pam
Randy Landers
visit our website at:
http://www.mindspring.com/~randylanders
Or, if you'd prefer our latest catalog, then you can email me your
mailing address, and I'll drop a quarterly report and a catalog in the
mail the next day.
Randy Landers
ORION PRESS
Randy Landers
<<I'm not Laura, nor do I play her on television, but I will offer
this
compromise. You list current zines available on your webpage - why not
place excerpts (3-4 paragraphs to a page) on this site, perhaps linked
from the general catalog? This way, those looking for zine info have
it, but it doesn't post incomplete stories to ASC. You can post a
notice to ASC when a new zine is listed and linked, so interested
parties can go to your site and look. Granted, it means more upload
space for the page, but it makes a permanent catalog, and may draw in
more buyers.>>
Okay, now this might be a workable thing. In fact, I could probably do
it for most of our newest releases that I'm formatting for the digest
size. I'll have to get with the editors though and let THEM pick which
of the several stories printed we should excerpt, which portion of the
excerpted should be selected for posting, etc.
Of course, posting such a notice on ASC will be considered advertising
... but I'm game. Heck, it's never stopped me before because there are
people like Pamela who haven't ever seen a zine. Lord knows until I
moved to town, no one in Albany had ever heard of them.
Randy Landers
<<I've seen others do it (albeit generally to advertise a Web site).
The
people who object will just have to get over it. Advertising on ASC is
not going to cause the readership of ASC to drop significantly, nor
will
the pool of ASC contributors decline to the point that the NG will
have
to fold. As long as it pertains to Star Trek fanfic, it has a place on
ASC.>>
Which is why I've always felt welcome to post comments about our zines
and our forthcoming projects here. Well, until now, that is.
>>> 2) Some contributors will consider it an endorsement to post their
>>> fiction freely here.
<<Then make it explicitly clear in advance they are *not* to do
that.>>
Well, we do. *chuckle* But some slip through the cracks.
>>> 3) Some folks will demand (rudely, I might add) that we not post
>>> incomplete stories here.
<<So what? Incomplete stories are posted here all the time. Hell, I've
done it myself more times than I care to count. If you're really that
reluctant to do this on ASC, why not post the story snippets on the
Web page, then post an advertisement on ASC alerting readers where to
go to read the snippets and get more information on ordering 'zines?>>
As Biffan also suggested... Hmmm....
Doable. Let me check the logistics. And start picking which story
snippets from OUTPOST 10 you want excerpted. :)
Randy
Randy Landers
<<but to make a sweeping statement such as "your story shouldn't be
doesn't work for me.>>
Please don't put words into my mouth. I never said that.
I'm bemoaning the fact that my favorite genre of Trek is on the
decline, much as the P/C crowd is bemoaning TPTB's abandonment of P/C.
Stephen Ratliff
|Stephen Ratliff wrote:
|
|> Also, please note that your e-mail address does not lend itself to
|> people
|> taking you seriously.
|
|Begging to differ, but I took it seriously and responded that way. I
|thought 1800 raised some good questions about the two fanfic media.
Okay, if someone e-mailed you with an e-mail address of whine, what would
you expect. I do think 1800 raised some good points, but the method and
approach, especially of the second post left much to be desired.
|RL
|was the one who chose to make it specific to Orion Press and that
|particular story.
As Mr. Landers is in charge of Orion Press, I found his siting of Orion
Press as an example to be appropriate. However the venum of 1800's
response to it was to put it mildly unwarented.
|I thought 1800's response was not inappropriate in
|tone or content. The part of this discussion that appalled me was when
|RL suggested that until 1800 had written a story "good enough" to appear
|in an Orion Press zine, s/he had no right to express an opinion about
|Sun & Fun.
I did not see that part of Mr. Lander's response.
|Maybe I'm bringing too much Real Life to this, but in my world, treating
|a paying customer with contempt is not the best way for a merchant to
|stay in business.
True
--
Stephen Ratliff FAQ Maintainer: http://www.runet.edu/~sratliff/FAQs
Index Maintainer: http://www.runet.edu/~sratliff/ascindex
Personal Works: http://www.runet.edu/~sratliff/works
Alt.StarTrek.Creative's Very Busy Man.
Wildcat
>
> Wildcat tosses up a red herring
> <<but to make a sweeping statement such as "your story shouldn't be
> here because it's getting away from what I love in Star Trek" just
> doesn't work for me.>>
>
> Please don't put words into my mouth. I never said that.
Here is exactly what you wrote:
<<I have been increasingly
critical of the fiction here on ASC mainly because more and more of
the material has been sexually explicit as of late (there is an ASCEM,
you know) and because more and more of the fiction is getting away
from what I love in Star Trek (as I asserted what, three months ago?).>>
To me, this means that you're criticizing the group because you don't
see what *you* would define as good Trek. I understand (and sympathize)
if you would like to see more stories of a particular genre here, and I
understand (and would encourage you) if you addressed things you dislike
in the form of feedback on a story-by-story basis, but what bothered me
was the fact that you slammed the ng in general. Just because you don't
see the stories you want doesn't mean that you should criticize the ones
you *don't* want.
> I'm bemoaning the fact that my favorite genre of Trek is on the
> decline, much as the P/C crowd is bemoaning TPTB's abandonment of P/C.
Sorry, but that's not how I saw it. I didn't put words in your mouth, I
just interpreted the ones I heard.
Wildcat
Stephen Ratliff
|Biffan suggests
|<<I'm not Laura, nor do I play her on television, but I will offer
|this
|compromise. You list current zines available on your webpage - why not
|place excerpts (3-4 paragraphs to a page) on this site, perhaps linked
|from the general catalog? This way, those looking for zine info have
|it, but it doesn't post incomplete stories to ASC. You can post a
|notice to ASC when a new zine is listed and linked, so interested
|parties can go to your site and look. Granted, it means more upload
|space for the page, but it makes a permanent catalog, and may draw in
|more buyers.>>
|
|Okay, now this might be a workable thing. In fact, I could probably do
|it for most of our newest releases that I'm formatting for the digest
|size. I'll have to get with the editors though and let THEM pick which
|of the several stories printed we should excerpt, which portion of the
|excerpted should be selected for posting, etc.
|
|Of course, posting such a notice on ASC will be considered advertising
|... but I'm game. Heck, it's never stopped me before because there are
|people like Pamela who haven't ever seen a zine. Lord knows until I
|moved to town, no one in Albany had ever heard of them.
I won't complain, and if anyone else gives you grips, forward them to me.
I'll note that as it stands, it does deal with "creative fan works" and
you've certainly earned the right.
Alt.StarTrek.Creative (ASC) is for the posting of creative StarTrek
Fan Fiction, poems, documentation, and other such works; discussion
of those works, Star Trek Fan works in general, and issues affecting
those works and the newsgroup in general.
Excerpts have been posted before for longer works, and the ads that we've
been concerned with mainly are the ones that totally volate them.
However, I have to note, in my role as FAQ Maintainer, I do think that we
may want to write up some sort of formal policy on advertizing of 'zines.
Stephen
--
Stephen Ratliff FAQ Maintainer: http://www.runet.edu/~sratliff/FAQs
"Doesn't anyone Read the FAQ?" -- Me after several ASC debates.
call18...@hotmail.com
"Randy Landers" <randyl...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> 1800whine says
> <<, I PAID money for this story. It wasn't free. IMO, that gives me
> the right to bitch about it.>>
>
> Then why didn't you come to me with this? Why did I learn of it from a
> third party that it had been posted in ASC several days ago?
I will admit, I wasn't real sure what my intentions were when I first
posted. It wasn't to publically trash the author, although she has now
been brought into this. Why? Because you brought it up. I wanted to
address what as I see as a 'stuck-up' attitude by you about the writing
in zines over what is here on the net.
And really, I don't care who you learned it from. Don't act so hurt
about that. My original post wasn't addressed to you, it was for whoever
wanted to discuss what I had to say.
I didn't want to critique the story. I wanted to make a friggin social
commentary on zine fiction vs web fiction. You...you made it personal by
fessing up. We could have addressed this all in relative terms without
specifics. But to tell the truth, this is way more fun.
>
> But that's not what you did. Further, the post that I pulled this
> excerpt from was one of the most hateful things I've ever seen posted
> here in, what, four years of being here?
>
> 1800whine says
> <<what I see as you being a big whiner about the death of
> zines, and the death of Orion in particular. You tout the line that
> zines are a superior quality writing compared to their on-line
> counterparts. I say.."Bullshit!". There is crap in zines just as there
> is crap on the net. The difference being I don't pay for on-line
> fic.>>
Being called a whiner is not hateful in my book. It's not like I
insulted your heritage or personal appearance. I just took an adjective
that I thought applied to you, and well..I applied it.
>
> For someone who says that the issue is the quality of the stories, you
> keep bringing up the price of zines. It's throughout your post.
Hmmm...maybe I'm doing something subliminal here. Nope...don't think so.
>
> But to address your criticism of zines being "superior quality
> writing" compared to the material published in this newsgroup, I would
> point out the following:
I never said zines were a superior quality of writing. You did. My main
objection in this whole thing is that THAT is what you say. I am
refuting your ascertation of that fact by saying "zine fiction is no
better or worse than on-line fiction".
>
> 1) We published Lynn and Mary's BETRAYED which was FIRST published in
> this newsgroup.
>
> 2) We have just published two zines which contained material first
> published in this newsgroup. One of the stories was posted here
> unbeknownst to me, and it was one of my favorite stories. I was
> considering pulling it, but I didn't.
>
> 3) 8 out of 10 contributors (including Editor Laura Taylor) of OUTPOST
> are regulars in this newsgroup.
>
> 4) We have posted nearly 10MB of material to this newsgroup, and many
> of our contributors continue to do so.
Look...my point in all this was not to say that things published in
zines should be made available on the net. I even mentioned that I like
zines. My problem is with your bitchin and moaning about how "if 1/10 of
the people who downloaded from my site would by 1 zine every year" then
everything would be peaches and cream in Randy's world.
Then, and here is where the biggest burr in my saddle came, you took
your site offline for awhile and implied that if people would just buy
some zines, you could afford to keep the site up. It was like you were
holding the stories hostage or something.
And damn, I don't care who puts their stuff in zines and/or on the web.
Some of my best buddies put their stuff in zines and on the web, some
edit zines, some do it all. I love their stuff..well, most of it :) I
buy the zines they do, I read stuff they put on-line.
When I read Sun and Fun, all I could think of was you saying how much
better zines were cause they had to be edited, and spellechecked, and
fairy dusted, and blessed by the nuns at lourdes...
Your hypocracy festered in me. I was pissed. I admit it. You pissed me
off. Zines are no better or worse than on-line fiction, at least in the
quality of the writing. However, they are different in packaging.
>
> Yes, I'm biased toward zines. Hell, yes. I publish them. I cut my
> teeth on them. I've been doing them for twenty years. But unlike you,
> I've never, NEVER trashed anyone's story on this newsgroup.
Well, as I said before, you have yourself to blame for bringing Sun and
Fun into it by name. And as even you noted earlier in this post, I did
come up with some valid criticisms of it.
I thought that saying a story 'sucked' or 'blew' was okay as long as I
said why. Or is it because I said it publically? I never would have done
it with a story that I receieved on-line. I paid for this. I am a
customer. Am I not allowed to warn other potential customers of what I
consider to be shoddy workmanship?
>
> As far as the rest of your diatribe goes, I'll have to decline to
> comment further as any response would probably be ignored anyways.
Ignored by who? me?
>
> Please return your copy of SUN AND FUN, and I'll personally see to it
> that you receive a refund.
I've been waiting for this empty jesture. Nope, I think I'll keep it. I
would like to have it around to show other P/Cers what it was I was
talking about.
Bis spater
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Jungle Kitty
> Okay, if someone e-mailed you with an e-mail address of whine, what would
> you expect. I do think 1800 raised some good points, but the method and
> approach, especially of the second post left much to be desired.
Hi, Stephen-
I personally think an email addy like 'Jungle Kitty' is pretty
silly--that's why I like it--but when I have something serious to say, I
still use it. Folks seem to understand. An email addy doesn't color the
message for me.
call18...@hotmail.com
Laura Taylor <dre...@roanoke.infi.net> wrote:
>
> I say, with equal flippance:
> Maybe there's a wolf in the other direction.
>
I don't fear the wolf.
> > I say:
> > The one unsatisfied customer who said anything. Doesn't preclude
that
> > they are no more people who thought this story should never have
been
> > published as a novella. If this story had shown up on the web, I
would
> > have read it, still thought it blew, but I never would have said
> > anything. I don't know the author, and unless she specifically asked
me
> > for critical feedback, my piggies would never have touched a key to
let
> > her know. But, I PAID money for this story. It wasn't free. IMO,
that
> > gives me the right to bitch about it.
>
> And here we get back to that old albatross, the debate about feedback.
> You assumed an alias so you could (paraphrasing your words) be more
> honestly critical, you posted your comments to ASC even though they
> concern a 'zine, and your vague criticism is valuable how? Did it
occur
> to you that, by directing your criticism to the source of your
> irritation, you might actually have a chance of preventing another
such
> waste of money? If you think the money you spent was wasted, why
didn't
> you say so directly to Randy and/or the author? Why tell ASC, if you
> won't even be specific about what 'zine you think your money was
wasted on?
I've said this before...I really didn't want to critique the story. I
want to discuss the attitude of zine fiction being better than on-line
fiction. Randy brought the specific novella I was talking about into the
discussion. When he did, I gave some valid criticism of why I thought
the story was bad.
>
> > I say:
> > So...they paid good money too. And if they are unsatisfied
customers,
> > then it is their right to complain, to warn others, to save the
> > unsuspecting..
>
> Yet you couched your complaint in such vague language you really
weren't
> warning anybody away from the specific 'zine you're complaining about.
> Instead, you're saying that 'zines are a waste of money. Again, how is
> this constructive?
I NEVER said zines were a waste of money. I said this zine was a wste of
money. I buy the beasties myself. As far as warning people away, no...I
didn't come right out and say "Don't buy Sun and Fun, it sucked". I did
however, give enough information that a person with two neurons firing
could guess what novella I was talking about. I even told people who
e-mailed me. And I told people who have an interest in P/C.
I couched nothing. My original post was to open a discussion on zine fic
vs web fic. I used the novella in question as a vehicle to said
discussion. I did not post to open a discussion on Sun and Fun.
>
> > Nice attitude. How much money does it take? It was my money. I
didn't
> > like it. I'm complaining.
>
> You complained to ASC. As far as I can tell, you didn't complain to
> Randy or the author. If you'd bought a book and discovered it was a
> waste of money, would you complain to your local librarian?
Randy has, on several occasion, stated his POV and Orion's situation on
ASC. Do I not have the right to call him on it? I bought a product from
Orion that the publisher has stated in an open public forum (ASC) to be
superior to it's distant cousin, on-line fic. I read it, and found his
claims to be untrue. I responded in that same public forum.
>
> Again, Randy, as much as I find his/her general tone distasteful,
s/he's
> got a point.
I can see where you would find the tone distasteful. But I would like to
say that I have enjoyed reading your response, and it made me decide to
think a little more about what I say. Being anonymous has it's drawbacks
sometimes.
Of course, I'm not making any promises....
randylanders
<<"your story shouldn't be here because it's getting away from what I love
in Star Trek" >>
And I said:
>> Please don't put words into my mouth. I never said that.<<
Then Wildcat said:
>Here is exactly what you wrote:
>>>I have been increasingly critical of the fiction here on ASC mainly
because more and
>>>more of the material has been sexually explicit as of late (there is an
ASCEM,
>>>you know) and because more and more of the fiction is getting away
>>>from what I love in Star Trek (as I asserted what, three months ago?).>>
NEVER did I say anyone's story shouldn't be here. EVER. You put words in my
mouth.
Then Wildcat puts more words in my mouth:
>To me, this means that you're criticizing the group because you don't
>see what *you* would define as good Trek.
I said that the fiction is getting away from what __I__ like about Star
Trek.
Then Wildcat says
>I understand (and sympathize)
>if you would like to see more stories of a particular genre here, and I
>understand (and would encourage you) if you addressed things you dislike
>in the form of feedback on a story-by-story basis, but what bothered me
>was the fact that you slammed the ng in general. Just because you don't
>see the stories you want doesn't mean that you should criticize the ones
>you *don't* want.
I challenge you to find where I have criticized a single story on this
newsgroup. And while I am a critic of this newsgroup, I am also a
participant, and have been for some time. I've even defended fan fiction for
the past decade from those who think that our posting of fan fiction here
and our printing them in zines somehow is "illegal" and "criminal." And
while I personally find nothing appealing whatsoever about K/S, I have
supported the efforts of Mercutio and Joyce Harmon who want to share the
stories from Trek fan lore with us on the Internet.
>> I'm bemoaning the fact that my favorite genre of Trek is on the
>> decline, much as the P/C crowd is bemoaning TPTB's abandonment of P/C.
>
>Sorry, but that's not how I saw it. I didn't put words in your mouth, I
>just interpreted the ones I heard.
Words are important, Wildcat. Reading between the lines and putting them in
my mouth is uncalled for. *chuckle* I put my foot in my mouth plenty,
Wildcat. You don't have to try to shove it in there for me.
Randy Landers
ORION PRESS
John J. Ordover
>
>I find myself in the role of John Ordover
Speak my name, and I shall appear.:)
<lots of snippage here and there)
here, banging my head on the
>keyboard. One person is unhappy, and dozens are happy. But whose
>comments generate the most attention? The one unsatisfied customer
>(and posting this, I know there will be a dozen more (who probably
>haven't even read it) who will chime in how "terrible" it was -- LOL).
>You can't please everyone; you try to please most people. But at $7.75
>(as compared to a $6.99 + tax novel from PocketBooks), you're not out
>of much money, are you?
Uh- Randy, $7.75 is a lot of money to some people. So's the price tag
on the probooks. You really can't tell them it isn't.
>
>P/C is one of the hardest things to publish because TPTB have done
>every thing they can to squelch it. And it's interpreted in different
>ways by different fans. Lynn just happens to have an interpretation
>that you didn't like."
Or maybe she didn't like the execution. Or the writing. You really
can't tell someone what it was about something that they didn't like.
I'd love for you to go ahead and forge a
>novella, an answer if you will as to how YOU see the relationship,
>submit it to us, and we'll be glad to consider it for publication as
>well. We will gladly set it forth as an ORION PRESS fanzine, and then
>we'll let the readership judge your work by comparison.
readers don't need to be writers to have the right to comment.
>
>1800whatever also says
><<Quite frankly, these are the same responses I get when reading
>on-line
>fanfiction. Know what the difference is...it's free on-line. I like it
>being free.>>
>
>Then I think that subconsciously you may have had a predisposition NOT
>to like the zine in the first place. And sure, free is nice. Everyone
>in the Lord's creation knows that. But paper is not free. Copies are
>not free. Bindings are not free. Postage is not free. So zines are not
>free.
I see - if she didn't like it, she must have come in with a bias
against it...
Randy, I certainly know all about the spiral - unit sales go down so
cost per unit goes up so you have to raise the price so sales go
down.... that way lies ruin.
If your sales are down - and from what I've read in this thread, they
seem to be - then you aren't providing your target audience with what
they want to read to an extent that they are willing to continue to
pay for it. The fault is -never- with the -readers-, it is -always-
with the publisher. Have you considered that what -you- consider a
good story might not match up with what your readers think is a good
Trek story?
I work to produce the ki nd of novel our readers will like, not to
please myself. That kind of approach drives up unit sales, which
reduces unit costs, which keeps you from having to raise prices...
etc. Oh, and sales on the pro books continue to rise sharply, despite
free fan-fic on the Ineternet.:)
John
P.S. -- the Strange New Worlds III fan written anthology/contest is
up and running. Check out the winners of the SNW II contest - the
book is on sale now - and find the rules for SNW III at
http://www.simonsays.com/startrek/features/strange.cfm
Michael Roy Hollihan
>
> Alt.StarTrek.Creative (ASC) is for the posting of creative StarTrek
> Fan Fiction, poems, documentation, and other such works; discussion
> of those works, Star Trek Fan works in general, and issues affecting
> those works and the newsgroup in general.
>
> Excerpts have been posted before for longer works, and the ads that we've
> been concerned with mainly are the ones that totally volate them.
>
> However, I have to note, in my role as FAQ Maintainer, I do think that we
> may want to write up some sort of formal policy on advertizing of 'zines.
>
Now hold on a minute. We routinely have people post on here with
notices about their fanfic website and/or webpages. Never a word is
said, that I can see, unless there is a violation of Usenet etiquette or
newsgroup charter. These pages and sites are littered with banners,
click-through ads, etc., that generate *profit* for someone. Orion
Press, as has been made clear, is a non-profit operation that breaks
even at best and loses money at the least.
Not to point fingers, nor to denigrate anyone's opinions, but there is a
certain animus on this newsgroup by a few towards print fanfic. As the
FAQ makes clear, there is no distinction to be made here regarding
source of fanfic--only topic.
Present charter info, and I *have* read it and the FAQs BTW, covers this
situation sufficiently. Can we please get away from making a rule for
everything, lest we end up with a FAQ that reads like Robert's Rules of
Order? Let public opprobium handle people who step over the social
line.
--
Michael Roy Hollihan
Memphis, Tennessee, USA
(Remove the NOT when hitting REPLY)
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may
be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons
than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty
may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but
those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for
they do so with the approval of their conscience." -- C.S Lewis
JWinterCNA
>
>
>Speak my name, and I shall appear.:)
Randy, didn't I tell you to quit posting Satanic incantations on this group?
Now look what you've gone and done. Where's my cyberexorcism book. My
Memorial Day weekend's shot to hell now.
(Sorry, John, but set yourself up big time for that one. <EG> )
Now seriously, folks, don't you think this thread was a bit overdue for that?
J
call18...@hotmail.com
>Or maybe she didn't like the execution. Or the writing. You really
>can't tell someone what it was about something that they didn't like.
Randy replied:
>Ah, but you've missed reading the salient points in the order in which
>they appeared. I don't begrudge 1800 their opinion.
>If you'd read the first post, you'd see that they'd taken the story,
>Fun and Sun?, and used the fact that since they considered it "sucked"
>to justify the elimination of all fanzines.
Whoa...hold on there, Randy. I never said fanzines should be
eiliminated. I have even mentioned several times that I buy them. I am
saying I take offense to your stated opinion that zines are better
written than on-line fic. Just as I bristle a little at John Ordover's
ascertation that stuff cranked out for Pocker Books is better than
either zine or on-line fic.
You know what...I don't buy Pocket Books anymore. There was a time when
all I did was wait til the next pro-book would come out, but no more. I
want more from my Trek. And as Randy states later on in this post, I
want my Trek characters to grow, to change, to breed :) Okay...yep, I
want them to have sex.
Anyways...oops, wait...I have bought a trek book recently..The Captain's
Table (Jean Luc Picard style), but I haven't read it yet. It's been
sitting on my nightstand for 3 months. I am not sure what this means in
a Freudian sense. Maybe Randy can enlighten me since he seems to have a
handle on my psyche.
John Ordover said:
>I see - if she didn't like it, she must have come in with a bias
>against it...
Randy replied:
>Actually, her second post indicates that she intended to provoke a
>response. Sounds like there's a bias in there.
My first post was intended to inspire debate. You replied to that post
bringing it to you, Orion, and Sun and Fun. I responded to your response
with bias. How can I not be bias? They are my opinions. If you can't be
biased about those, what can you be bias about?
Til the next one...
Randy Landers
<<I won't complain, and if anyone else gives you grips, forward them
to me.
I'll note that as it stands, it does deal with "creative fan works"
and
you've certainly earned the right.>>
Thank you. That does mean a lot to me. :)
<<However, I have to note, in my role as FAQ Maintainer, I do think
that we
may want to write up some sort of formal policy on advertizing of
'zines.>>
I've thought this all along. I mean, for heaven's sake, surely you
wouldn't want me to post excerpts from all our stories and zines. LOL
I imagine the bandwidth would be considerable. But perhaps a brief
excerpt and ordering information at the end of the excerpt would be in
order for our newest releases. Especially after how many contributors
to our zines (such as OUTPOST 10) are now coming from this newsgroup.
Randy Landers
ORION PRESS
Katie Redshoes
srat...@runet.edu (Stephen Ratliff) wrote:
>The Great Randy Landers wrote:
[snip]
>|Of course, posting such a notice on ASC will be considered advertising
>|... but I'm game. Heck, it's never stopped me before because there are
>|people like Pamela who haven't ever seen a zine. Lord knows until I
>|moved to town, no one in Albany had ever heard of them.
>
>I won't complain, and if anyone else gives you grips, forward them to me.
>I'll note that as it stands, it does deal with "creative fan works" and
>you've certainly earned the right.
>
>Alt.StarTrek.Creative (ASC) is for the posting of creative StarTrek
>Fan Fiction, poems, documentation, and other such works; discussion
>of those works, Star Trek Fan works in general, and issues affecting
>those works and the newsgroup in general.
>
>Excerpts have been posted before for longer works, and the ads that we've
>been concerned with mainly are the ones that totally volate them.
>
>However, I have to note, in my role as FAQ Maintainer, I do think that we
>may want to write up some sort of formal policy on advertizing of 'zines.
Ditto for what Stephen says *except* that I don't think we need a
formal policy about advertising of zines. It's one step from that to
formalizing policy on posting of notices of any stories not posted
here, along with announcements of rpg's, updated websites with
Trekfic, etc., etc., etc.
As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing in the ASC charter banning
the posting of informational notices about fanzines.
--
Constable Katie Collecter/Formatter, ASC* Archive team
ASC* archive: http://archive.nu or http://www.cs.runet.edu/~sratliff/ascindex
ASC FAQs: http://www.runet.edu/~sratliff/FAQs
Submissions: submissions# webamused.com
Corrections: r.lerret# usa.net Remove "NOJUNK" or replace # to reply
For archive updates: ASC-Archive-a...@onelist.com
Randy Landers
Well, LOL, James Winter warned me. You search for your name in all
postings? LOL
>Uh- Randy, $7.75 is a lot of money to some people. So's the price
tag
>on the probooks. You really can't tell them it isn't.
Didn't say it wasn't. Said it was comparable to what they pay for your
books, John. $6.99 plus 7% tax = $7.48. My price includes shipping and
handling.
>Or maybe she didn't like the execution. Or the writing. You really
>can't tell someone what it was about something that they didn't like.
Ah, but you've missed reading the salient points in the order in which
they appeared. I don't begrudge 1800 their opinion.
If you'd read the first post, you'd see that they'd taken the story,
Fun and Sun?, and used the fact that since they considered it "sucked"
to justify the elimination of all fanzines. Let's see, by the same
logic, "The Captain's Daughter" sucked so PocketBooks should cease
publication because the net is free and people shouldn't have to pay
for books like "The Captain's Daughter."
>readers don't need to be writers to have the right to comment.
Quite right. Never said otherwise.
>I see - if she didn't like it, she must have come in with a bias
>against it...
Actually, her second post indicates that she intended to provoke a
response. Sounds like there's a bias in there.
>Randy, I certainly know all about the spiral - unit sales go down so
>cost per unit goes up so you have to raise the price so sales go
>down.... that way lies ruin.
Agreed. That's why we reformatted all our newer publications to reduce
the costs of them and to make them more affordable in an attempt to
build sales which will further reduce the costs. BTW, we lowered costs
in 1994 (our best year) because sales were so good. We raised them in
1998 because sales had returned to their previous levels.
>If your sales are down - and from what I've read in this thread, they
>seem to be - then you aren't providing your target audience with what
>they want to read to an extent that they are willing to continue to
>pay for it. The fault is -never- with the -readers-, it is -always-
>with the publisher. Have you considered that what -you- consider a
>good story might not match up with what your readers think is a good
>Trek story?
Actually, John, I publish material all the time that don't appeal to
me personally. While I enjoy all genres of Star Trek, TOS is my
favorite and TNG is presently my least favorite (ask me next week,
and this will change -- LOL). However, nearly 50% of the zines we've
published this decade have been TNG.
The problem is two fold:
1) TNG and DS9 are dying. TNG accounted for 60% - 70% of our sales.
With its decline, sales plummeted, and there was a need for a price
increase in order to maintain publishing that number of zines. So,
we've cancelled ERIDANI (TNG), INVOLUTION (TNG-Picard) and OUTPOST
(DS9). We're probably going to cancel NUMBER ONE (TNG-Riker) and there
won't be future issues of IMZADI. That leaves just three of our
zines--FOUR LIGHT (TNG h/c), IDYLLS (TNG romance) and possibly FIRE
AND ICE (TNG Crusher with some Picard) available to fans. We're going
to increase the number of one-shot publications devoted to special
interests (such as Dumar/Ziyal or Riker/Troi).
2) The price of copying continues to rise with increases in paper (and
lumber) and service and labor (most copier operators earn little more
than the present minimum wage--it's increased twice in the past two
years). We have reformatted our new zines into a digest format which
has resulted in a 30% - 50% price decrease. Those $20 zines are now
around $10 - $11. :)
>I work to produce the ki nd of novel our readers will like, not to
>please myself. That kind of approach drives up unit sales, which
>reduces unit costs, which keeps you from having to raise prices...
>etc. Oh, and sales on the pro books continue to rise sharply,
despite
>free fan-fic on the Ineternet.:)
Uh, John, how come the books never make the best sellers lists then?
They used to.
Seriously, we have addressed the issues in a major series of changes
back in April. *chuckle* Laura Taylor's zine ended up reformatted in
mid-stream (and I appreciate it, Laura). So did Lynn Lorton's SUN AND
FUN and even my own ANTARES 3.
As far as developing our zines like you do your books, I daresay no
one here would want me to make zines filled with static characters who
can't emotion or have a sexual nature, who can't change or develop or
grow or get horribly maimed or die, who can't live, breathe (and
breed) and die.
Or do they?
Randy Landers
ORION PRESS
Randy Landers
>Randy, didn't I tell you to quit posting Satanic incantations on this
group?
>Now look what you've gone and done. Where's my cyberexorcism book.
>My Memorial Day weekend's shot to hell now.
>
>(Sorry, John, but set yourself up big time for that one. <EG> )
>
>Now seriously, folks, don't you think this thread was a bit overdue
for that?
Yeah, you warned me two days ago. LOL
Stephen Ratliff
Actually, Katie, my reasoning behind having a formal policy is simply a
note that occassionally such a post can be expected. That way we can
reduce the number of "you shouldn't" posts and e-mails.
As for those rpg announcements... well there is a more specific group for
it (alt.starfleet.rpg) but I'm not going to drive them off ASC. Now
ASCA... Well, if I get another 3 copy submission of one, I'll screem,
publically.
|As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing in the ASC charter banning
|the posting of informational notices about fanzines.
Noted, logged.
Katie Redshoes
srat...@runet.edu (Stephen Ratliff) wrote:
>The Great Katie Redshoes wrote:
>|On Mon, 31 May 1999 18:20:52 GMT in alt.startrek.creative,
>|srat...@runet.edu (Stephen Ratliff) wrote:
[snip]
>|Ditto for what Stephen says *except* that I don't think we need a
>|formal policy about advertising of zines. It's one step from that to
>|formalizing policy on posting of notices of any stories not posted
>|here, along with announcements of rpg's, updated websites with
>|Trekfic, etc., etc., etc.
>
>Actually, Katie, my reasoning behind having a formal policy is simply a
>note that occassionally such a post can be expected. That way we can
>reduce the number of "you shouldn't" posts and e-mails.
Ah, well, I have no quarrel with that.
>As for those rpg announcements... well there is a more specific group for
>it (alt.starfleet.rpg) but I'm not going to drive them off ASC. Now
>ASCA... Well, if I get another 3 copy submission of one, I'll screem,
>publically.
I just delete them, after reading. Occasionally, they've included
fanfic in 'em.
Wildcat
> Words are important, Wildcat. Reading between the lines and putting them in
> my mouth is uncalled for. *chuckle* I put my foot in my mouth plenty,
> Wildcat. You don't have to try to shove it in there for me.
Yes, they are important. I've snipped the rest of what you said because
obviously we don't agree on this and it just doesn't matter enough to me
to argue. I guess what has happened here is that I *perceived* you said
something that you *perceived* you didn't. Perception is everything
here on the net. I can't see your face; all I know is what I read.
That's not an argument in either of our defenses--that's just reality.
I didn't mean to put words in your mouth, and truthfully I don't think I
did. But that's just my perception. And I don't think I'm the only one
perceiving this sort of attitude--otherwise, this thread wouldn't be so
long.
Wildcat
.
<randyl...@mindspring.com> writes
I have followed this latest discussion with interest. As you know, I
keep supporting you by buying zines when I can afford it.
I think they way you are going by publishing more one-shots and specials
is the right way forward. The less contributors one issue has, the
better because you explained to me in the past that EACH contributor has
to get a free zine because this is tradition in the USA. It is different
in Germany, by the way.
I also like the idea to offer zines in a smaller format. First, of
course it is cheaper, but second, they are more handy. I like reading in
bed and an A4 zine is definitely less easy to handle then than a
paperback novel.
The Star Trek Forum, the best place for German zines in my opinion,
experienced about the same concerning shifting interests. New TNG zines
are nearly nonexistant and if they appear, they are one-shots with one
larger story. DS9 is still strong but contributions are already
dropping. This is mainly applying to short stories. Soon it will be the
same with DS9 as it is with TNG, although I have the feeling that DS9
will remain more popular than TNG. This is mainly due to the fact that
the Forum has mainly three DS9 fanfiction writers who are very dedicated
and offer excellent stories. They want to continue the DS9 series in
zine form after they had a chance to watch the last episodes I will
hopefully get in a few days. One of them is Gabi Stiene who had also
worked for you in the past and who is a good friend of mine.
I am surprised that TOS is still quite strong and Voyager is on the way
up it seems.
>
>As far as developing our zines like you do your books, I daresay no
>one here would want me to make zines filled with static characters who
>can't emotion or have a sexual nature, who can't change or develop or
>grow or get horribly maimed or die, who can't live, breathe (and
>breed) and die.
>
>Or do they?
>
I know, you don`t like New Frontier, the books I consider to be the best
Star Trek series. It offers everything you are criticising concerning
professional books.
Also, I discovered that the professional novels are more and more
forming a Star Trek universe of their own which I find very interesting.
It will even become stronger and more diverse when the new DS9 novel
series is starting in 2001 - which will be written in the same style as
New Frontier continuing the series after what happened on TV. I am very
much looking forward to that!
And it will be interesting to me to compare this novel series then to
what my German friends will write in their fanzine series. :-)
>Randy Landers
>ORION PRESS
>
>
Baerbel Haddrell
ORDOVER
>The problem is two fold:
>
>1) TNG and DS9 are dying. TNG accounted for 60% - 70% of our sales.
>With its decline, sales plummeted, and there was a need for a price
>increase in order to maintain publishing that number of zines. So,
>we've cancelled ERIDANI (TNG), INVOLUTION (TNG-Picard) and OUTPOST
>(DS9). We're probably going to cancel NUMBER ONE (TNG-Riker) and there
>won't be future issues of IMZADI. That leaves just three of our
>zines--FOUR LIGHT (TNG h/c), IDYLLS (TNG romance) and possibly FIRE
>AND ICE (TNG Crusher with some Picard) available to fans. We're going
>to increase the number of one-shot publications devoted to special
>interests (such as Dumar/Ziyal or Riker/Troi).
Gee, my TNG sales are going strong - recent New York Times bestsellers include
the Q-Continuum Trilogy and the Dominion War books. If anything, fan interest
in the TNG books has spiked upward since it went off the air. So I guess it's
just interest in TNG -printed fan-fiction- that's dying off. DS9 has never
been a good seller across the board (although the Dominon War books did make
the NY Times list) but we expect it to spike upwards now that the show is off
the air.
>
>2) The price of copying continues to rise with increases in paper (and
>lumber) and service and labor (most copier operators earn little more
>than the present minimum wage--it's increased twice in the past two
>years). We have reformatted our new zines into a digest format which
>has resulted in a 30% - 50% price decrease. Those $20 zines are now
>around $10 - $11. :)
Our paper and printing costs have gone up as well.
>
>>I work to produce the ki nd of novel our readers will like, not to
>>please myself. That kind of approach drives up unit sales, which
>>reduces unit costs, which keeps you from having to raise prices...
>>etc. Oh, and sales on the pro books continue to rise sharply,
>despite
>>free fan-fic on the Ineternet.:)
>
>
>Uh, John, how come the books never make the best sellers lists then?
>They used to.
See above and add the New Frontier books to the list of NYTIMES bestsellers..
We stopped being Times list regualrs when we went to do two books a month and
somewhat flooded the market - yet we're still making it from time to time and
sales are now strong as ever (the Times list is harder to get on to lately
also, with seven or eight authors and the "Oprah Books" taking up all the
slots).
>As far as developing our zines like you do your books, I daresay no
>one here would want me to make zines filled with static characters who
>can't emotion or have a sexual nature, who can't change or develop or
>grow or get horribly maimed or die, who can't live, breathe (and
>breed) and die.
My sales are strong and growing, especially TNG, while yours are dropping off
to the point where you say TNG is dying.:) I must be doing something right -
and, frankly, you must be doing something wrong, or your sales would be growing
(when sales slump, it's -always- the publisher's fault). Or it could be the
webbies are right, and the day of printed fan-fiction is passing.
John Ordover
Executive Editor
Star Trek Fiction
Pocket Books
For more Trek Book Info:
www.startrekbooks.com
PensNest
call18...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>First off, I'd like to say that in general, I like printed zines. I have
>>several of them. And more than likely, I will buy a couple more in the
>>future. But recently, I purchased a zine-novella that quite frankly,
>>wasn't worth a dime.
I agree with the first two sentences. As for the third, been there, done
that too.
>>I know in the past, there have pleas on behalf of the printed zine. And
>>how web produced fanfiction is pushing this media form into extinction.
>>It has also been argued, in their favor, that we, as a fanfic reading
>>public, should not let this happen. Statements for this argument are
>>that printed zines are a 'higher' quality of writing due to the fact
>>that they are edited. Whereas web produced stories are ground out with
>>out so much as a by your leave from the spell checker.
Like so much in life, it mostly depends on the editor...
<snip>
>>I know it must be a ego boost to authors to see their work 'in print'.
>>They don't get paid for this, but the reading public pays for it. I
>>guess I just like the idea of the free idea forum of the net. And it
>>seems to me that printed zines are getting a little out of range. It's
>>not the fault of the publishers, the editors, or the writers and
>>artists...it just is.
You can, of course, hope to improve the odds slightly by reading a review
of a zine before laying out hard cash.
'An Idiosyncratic Review' is published twice a year, costs only L3.50 (UK
and Europe) or US$5 (USA), and contains zine reviews, articles on aspects
of writing and reading, letters of comment, and zine ads. Reviews are
always welcome. Why not get in touch with me by email and see what the
guidelines are?
Anyone interested in subscribing, email me for details.
Pen Robinson
AIRHead
An Idiosyncratic Review - for the discerning zine reader
email pensnest at globalnet.co.uk
.
<ord...@aol.com> writes
>
>Gee, my TNG sales are going strong - recent New York Times bestsellers include
>the Q-Continuum Trilogy and the Dominion War books. If anything, fan interest
>in the TNG books has spiked upward since it went off the air. So I guess it's
>just interest in TNG -printed fan-fiction- that's dying off.
That`s good to know! I think some of the recent TNG books were excellent
after a phase where I found most of them average at best. I am
especially a fan of the Q-trilogy and concerning TNG, I am now mainly
looking forward to Peter David`s I, Q. He has shown again and again that
he is really good at writing Q books. I still have to laugh when I think
of his ideas he mentioned in the New Frontier mailing list about a
meeting of Calhoun and Q as well as Q and Selar. I am hoping he will
write this book. I am sure, it will be hilarious! :-)
> DS9 has never
>been a good seller across the board (although the Dominon War books did make
>the NY Times list) but we expect it to spike upwards now that the show is off
>the air.
>
I can imagine that the new DS9 series that will start in 2001 will make
DS9 fans very curious indeed - especially also because New Frontier is
so popular.
>My sales are strong and growing, especially TNG, while yours are dropping off
>to the point where you say TNG is dying.:) I must be doing something right -
>and, frankly, you must be doing something wrong, or your sales would be growing
>(when sales slump, it's -always- the publisher's fault). Or it could be the
>webbies are right, and the day of printed fan-fiction is passing.
>
Hm, John, I have to come a bit to Randy`s defense here. Of course you
have a point but you can only offer good fanzines if you also get good
contributions.
>
>
>John Ordover
>Executive Editor
>Star Trek Fiction
>Pocket Books
Baerbel Haddrell
ORDOVER
>have a point but you can only offer good fanzines if you also get good
>contributions.
>
It's an editor and publishe'rs s job to -get- the good contributions. :)
John Ordover
Executive Editor
Star Trek Fiction
Pocket Books
For more Trek Book Info:
www.startrekbooks.com
Randy Landers
<<My sales are strong and growing, especially TNG, while yours are
dropping off to the point where you say TNG is dying.:) I must be
doing something right - and, frankly, you must be doing something
wrong, or your sales would be growing (when sales slump, it's -always-
the publisher's fault). Or it could be the webbies are right, and the
day of printed fan-fiction is passing.>>
I have no explanation for this difference. Perhaps, though, the fact
is that you've so flooded the market with books (and my "to read" pile
as never been higher) that readers no longer have any need for
fanzines. Perhaps it is the abundance of fan fiction on the Internet
is leading to its decline. Perhaps the themed-series you've introduced
have helped, and we're moving into this direction as well. But I see a
definite drop in the number of TNG fans, even at conventions and to
some extent even in this newsgroup. One other thing: our readers for
the most part were extremely unhappy about the three TNG films,
especially in regards to Picard/Crusher. Many of them (including many
of our talented contributors) have moved on to the X-Files. It's also
possible that due to the nature of fanzines we're more susceptible to
market trends (and your target audience of 13-25 yr. old young white
males has NEVER been our market) than you are.
Of course, I'll concede it's possible that you're the greatest editor
in the galaxy and have guided the TNG franchise through the backlash
of fandom into a safe harbor with your wonderfully developed and
enthralling books.
Unzadi
>definite drop in the number of TNG fans,
Siiiiiiiigh. Ach, it hurts to hear that. Personally, TNG is and always will
be my favourite Trek. As I work more towards professional writing, I've had to
scale back fannish activities, and TNG is about what I've decided to keep. (I
think I may be the one person in the free world who doesn't watch X-Files.)
Even then, my TNG fanfics do tend to deviate from the norm. I'm glad there are
zine publishers like Orion, First Light, Cat Toy and Pleasant Little Kingdom
who are open to such things.
>One other thing: our readers for
>the most part were extremely unhappy about the three TNG films,
>especially in regards to Picard/Crusher
I loved the first two TNG movies, and list myself as a conscientious objector
to ST9. I don't like R/T (romantically) and I *do* like P/C. I can find much
more worthwhile romance in zines than I can in the Trek movies. Romance isn't
the focus of the Pocket novels, so I never looked for it there. (Though
Laurell K. Hamilton's Nightshade will always be a favourite for the wonderful
handling of Worf and Troi's relationship.)
Much of this is a matter of taste. Trek has always had something for everyone,
and that, I think is what truly keeps me coming back for more. I hope the
market does continue to change, but do *not* take away my printed zines. It
can and it will get ugly. Trust me. Nobody wants to see that happen. <G>
Anna
Friends don't let friends write bad fanfic!
Chamber of the Warrior Queen
http://members.aol.com/unzadi
Randy Landers
:)
Actually, John, we get good contributions. But you're right. That's
the job of each editor. I have nine of them out there, and they do a
damn fine job of putting together some great zines. Sandra Hunger,
Gwyn Allman, Elizabeth Knauel, Ann Zewen, "Wynn Jones," Priscilla
Ball, Brenda Shaffer-Shiring, Althea Katz and myself all do a fine job
of assembling some of the best fanzines fandom's ever seen. I'm proud
of my association with each of them, and I'm proud to publish the
zines these editors produce.
I might add that I find it amusing that here you are offering all this
advice to us when you've never even read one of our fanzines. You're
telling me what I'm doing wrong when you're speaking out of complete
ignorance, and it's most...unseemly.
Randy Landers
ORION PRESS
MissElise
>Gwyn Allman, Elizabeth Knauel, Ann Zewen, "Wynn Jones," Priscilla
>Ball, Brenda Shaffer-Shiring, Althea Katz and myself
What about Laura Taylor?! Isn't she still there?
MissElise ~ remove the ELY to REply
http://members.aol.com/etobler/
Whatever you wish for me, may you be blessed with twice as much.
"Sign your work, tell the truth, and shame the Devil." --MZB
ORDOVER
>advice to us when you've never even read one of our fanzines. You're
>telling me what I'm doing wrong when you're speaking out of complete
>ignorance, and it's most...unseemly.
>
>Randy Landers
>ORION PRESS
If your sales are dropping, it's clear that one of two things has happened:
1) You're not appealing to your target market
more than your competitors
or
2) Your target market is shrinking.
Those are the only reasons -anything- drops in salesll.:) Don't need to have
sampled the product to know.
Now, assuming for a second that you and I are after the same target market, and
my sales are growing while yours are shrinking, then I'm appealing to them in
a way that you're not (and you mentioned earlier that you're copying my
multi-book series approach, so you must think I'm doing something right).
Now, it's also possible that we were never after the same target market, and
that for some reason your market is shrinking while mine is growing. That's
completely posssible - there are more and more "fanish" shows every day: - SW,
X-Files, Buffy, Xena, Hercules, etc. etc. We're in a "golden age" of media
fantasy and science fiction, and people are fans of multiple shows, so that
where they once might have bought three Trekzines they now buy one Trekzine,
one Xenazine and one Buffyzine.
Of course, there are Buffy novels, X-Files novels, and especially SW novels
etc. competing with my line, but you may be hurt more by that than I am. I
don't know. Also, the lowered attendence at conventions - which is caused for
the most part by the HUGE number of Trek conventions that have sprung up - has
hurt your distribution chain. So since they can't find your product, your
market is going to competing products they can find more easily.
Laura Taylor
>
> >Sandra Hunger,
> >Gwyn Allman, Elizabeth Knauel, Ann Zewen, "Wynn Jones," Priscilla
> >Ball, Brenda Shaffer-Shiring, Althea Katz and myself
>
> What about Laura Taylor?! Isn't she still there?
<checks self in mirror>
Damn, I've been converted to chopped liver. I *hate* chopped liver! And
in this summer heat, I'm starting to spoil a bit. Phew, better go sit in
the fridge.
<G> Yes, I'm still here, I'll be editing DS9 novellas on an as-needed
basis from now on since there won't be any more issues of Outpost. On a
positive note, there are 3 such novellas in the works (at least, I think
so--Anna, you paying attention?).
Laura
--
=====
"When I grow up, I'm gonna be an aardvark."
--Drew Taylor
Stephen Ratliff
|Stephen Ratliff wrote:
|>
|> Alt.StarTrek.Creative (ASC) is for the posting of creative StarTrek
|> Fan Fiction, poems, documentation, and other such works; discussion
|> of those works, Star Trek Fan works in general, and issues affecting
|> those works and the newsgroup in general.
|>
|> Excerpts have been posted before for longer works, and the ads that we've
|> been concerned with mainly are the ones that totally volate them.
|>
|> However, I have to note, in my role as FAQ Maintainer, I do think that we
|> may want to write up some sort of formal policy on advertizing of 'zines.
|>
|
|notices about their fanfic website and/or webpages. Never a word is
|said, that I can see, unless there is a violation of Usenet etiquette or
|newsgroup charter. These pages and sites are littered with banners,
|click-through ads, etc., that generate *profit* for someone. Orion
|Press, as has been made clear, is a non-profit operation that breaks
|even at best and loses money at the least.
|
|Not to point fingers, nor to denigrate anyone's opinions, but there is a
|certain animus on this newsgroup by a few towards print fanfic. As the
|FAQ makes clear, there is no distinction to be made here regarding
|source of fanfic--only topic.
|
|Present charter info, and I *have* read it and the FAQs BTW, covers this
|situation sufficiently. Can we please get away from making a rule for
|everything, lest we end up with a FAQ that reads like Robert's Rules of
|Order? Let public opprobium handle people who step over the social
|line.
What I'm thinking is an alteration of the no advertising line, which is
currently causing some problems for these people. Right now it reads no
advertising. I think that needs some alteration. As for reading like
Robert's Rules of order... see FAQ: Mannerly Art of Debate for ASC's
version.
Stephen R1.
--
Alt.StarTrek.Creative.All-Ages Moderating Team Moderator Posting:
Stephen Ratliff srat...@runet.edu
Contact: as...@rocketmail.com
Archive: http://extra.newsguy.com/~trekfic
Submissions: as...@rocketmail.com
Unzadi
>basis from now on since there won't be any more issues of Outpost. On a
>positive note, there are 3 such novellas in the works (at least, I think
>so--Anna, you paying attention?).
>
>Laura
Yep, I'm paying attention. You-know-who and you-know-who will definetly have
their story told.
JWinterCNA
>webbies are right, and the day of printed >fan-fiction is passing.
Doubtful. Every year I hear paper this and paper that is dying, including
fanfic. Guess what. Compared to five years ago, when I first dabbled in
computers, I'm drowning in paper. Books, memos, bills, even fanfic. All the
internet has done is create new ways to abuse the timber industry way beyond
capacity.
In short: Printed fanfic will be around for a VERY long time.
J Winter,
Backup FAQ Maintainer
Alliance author
Troll stalker
SPAM slayer
Subversive element of the radical centrist movement
Laura Taylor
>
> Randy please clarify this for me - I am a bit confused......
>
> Randy Landers wrote:
>
> 1) TNG and DS9 are dying.
>
>
> > won't be future issues of IMZADI.
>
>
> > to increase the number of one-shot publications devoted to special
> > interests (such as Dumar/Ziyal or Riker/Troi).
> >
>
> publishing business, but I do have a question. Above you mentioned
> that there would be no more IMZADI issues. Yet, you also said that
> there would be more one-shot pubs such as Riker/Troi. Are they not
> one and the same???
There can be Riker/Troi stories that don't directly address the 'Imzadi'
element; I think Anna Bowling mentioned writing a non-Imzadi R/T story
once. It could also be *Thomas* Riker/Troi, or Riker/*Lwaxana* Troi (a
scary thought, if you ask me <G>). Or even Thomas Riker/Lwaxana Troi
(I'd better stop before I give myself the heebie-jeebies).
I was curious as to the sales of your recent
> Imzadi issue as well. From a purely personal standpoint, TNG is far
> from being dead. If you were to poll the majority of
> Trekkers/Trekkies out here, I believe you will find that TNG is STILL
> the most beloved of all the Trek series. It is aslo the crew that is
> now on the big screen. If you search the web, you will also find more
> sites devoted to fans of TNG than any other.
Hmm...I'm not so sure about this. Constable Katie has the exact figures
on stories posted to ASC, but I'd say "Voyager" produces the highest
quantity of Trek fan fiction and Web sites. Randy's sales, to the best
of my knowledge, also reflect this trend.
Now that Randy's mentioned Damar/Ziyal as a one-shot, though...;-D
Micaela
this and I did not realize that everything was coming through as html
because it came back to me in text form. I did what you said about
going into preferences and tried to change it. Did this one come
through okay???? Micaela
Gabrielle Lawson
PensNest wrote:
> You can, of course, hope to improve the odds slightly by reading a review
> of a zine before laying out hard cash.
>
> 'An Idiosyncratic Review' is published twice a year, costs only L3.50 (UK
> and Europe) or US$5 (USA), and contains zine reviews, articles on aspects
> of writing and reading, letters of comment, and zine ads. Reviews are
> always welcome. Why not get in touch with me by email and see what the
> guidelines are?
>
> Anyone interested in subscribing, email me for details.
I was surprised to find a copy of this in my mailbox today. Why? Apparently
because there was a review of my Oswiecim in there. 5 diggies. I had
to dig around to find out what a diggie was, but I figured it out. I like
this
publication and I'd like the details for subscribing from the US.
--
--Gabrielle
I'd much rather be writing!
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/2460
Randy Landers
>What about Laura Taylor?! Isn't she still there?
<banging head on his keyboard>
Damn, damn, damn, Damn, damn, damn, Damn, damn, damn, Damn, damn,
damn, Damn, damn, damn, Damn, damn, damn, Damn, damn, damn, Damn,
damn, damn, Damn, damn, damn, Damn, damn, damn,
Yes, she's still here. LOL
Damn, damn, damn, Damn, damn, damn, Damn, damn, damn, Damn, damn,
damn, Damn, damn, damn, Damn, damn, damn, Damn, damn, damn, Damn,
damn, damn, Damn, damn, damn, Damn, damn, damn.
Randy
A. LANGSDORF
post to the newsgroups.
AnneL
On Tue, 1 Jun 1999, Micaela wrote:
> <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
> <html>
> Baerbel: New Frontier mailing list?????? Where and how can
> I sign up?
> <br>An avid NF fan, Micaela
> <br>
> <blockquote TYPE=CITE>That`s good to know! I think some of the recent TNG
> books were excellent
> <br>after a phase where I found most of them average at best. I am
> <br>especially a fan of the Q-trilogy and concerning TNG, I am now mainly
> <br>looking forward to Peter David`s I, Q. He has shown again and again
> that
> <br>he is really good at writing Q books. I still have to laugh when I
> think
> <br>of his ideas he mentioned in the New Frontier mailing list about a
> <br>meeting of Calhoun and Q as well as Q and Selar. I am hoping he will
> <br>write this book. I am sure, it will be hilarious! :-)</blockquote>
> </html>
>
>
>
Randy Landers
<<Also, the lowered attendance at conventions - which is caused for
the most part by the HUGE number of Trek conventions that have sprung
up - has hurt your distribution chain. So since they can't find your
product, your market is going to competing products they can find more
easily.>>
Now that IS true, and I hadn't considered that before. There used to
be one or two Trek conventions in Baltimore and we did both of them.
Now there's four and we can only afford to do two of them, so sales
are affected.
We did a convention in the spring in Orlando last year, and all the
new fans in attendance (most of whom I'm convinced were actually
refugees from DisneyWorld and MGM) didn't even know what a fanzine
was. We ended up GIVING them away. Literally. And I swore off VulKons
thereafter.
Used to be that the big California MegaCon was a good place for us,
but sales there are dwindling as well.
I give credit where's it's deserved, and you're quite right about
this, John. Thanks!
Randy Landers
Netscape and Outlook Express...
Gotta love 'em, right?
Micaela
You know, you'll get a LOT better response if you don't use HTML when
you
post to the newsgroups.
AnneL:
I now realize that. It was done inadvertantly and I again apologize. I
am new to this and did not realize that my default was set for html. It
has now been corrected. I again apologize for my ignorance. Micaela
Micaela
Katie Redshoes wrote:
> This one came through just fine, Micaela.
Micaela
only been here for two days - but does everyone ALWAYS pick on you this
much???? LOL BTW - Netscape and Outlook Express are the only two
newsgroup servers I have - so it all looked GREAT to me!!!! ha ha
Micaela
Laura Taylor
You're going to be paying for this one for a loooong time, 'zineboy. You
know how long Southern memories are <VEG>
Randy Landers
>>You're going to be paying for this one for a loooong time, 'zineboy.
You
>know how long Southern memories are <VEG><<
Double-damn, double-damn, double-damn, double-damn, double-damn,
double-damn, double-damn, double-damn, double-damn, double-damn,
double-damn, double-damn, double-damn, double-damn, double-damn,
double-damn, double-damn, double-damn, double-damn, double-damn,
double-damn, double-damn, double-damn, double-damn, double-damn,
double-damn, double-damn, double-damn, double-damn, double-damn,
double-damn, double-damn, double-damn, double-damn, double-damn,
double-damn, double-damn, double-damn, double-damn, double-damn,
double-damn, double-damn, double-damn, double-damn, double-damn,
double-damn, double-damn, double-damn, double-damn, double-damn,
double-damn, double-damn, double-damn, double-damn, double-damn,
double-damn, double-damn, double-damn, double-damn, double-damn,
double-damn, double-damn, double-damn, double-damn, double-damn,
double-damn, double-damn, double-damn, double-damn, double-damn,
double-damn, double-damn, double-damn, double-damn, double-damn,
double-damn, double-damn, double-damn, double-damn, double-damn,
double-damn, double-damn, double-damn, double-damn, double-damn,
double-damn, double-damn, double-damn, double-damn, double-damn!
Laura Taylor
>
> Yep, I'm paying attention. You-know-who and you-know-who will definetly have
> their story told.
<jumps for joy>
*Very* glad to hear it, in case you can't tell :-)
Randy Landers
>Thanks Randy!!!! Again - not trying to stir up trouble cause I have
only been here for two days - but does everyone ALWAYS pick on you
this much???? LOL
Sometimes it seems like it. :) But not really.
>>BTW - Netscape and Outlook Express are the only two
newsgroup servers I have - so it all looked GREAT to me!!!! ha ha <<
And I never saw the posts you made because Mindspring won't propagate
messages with binaries or html formatting to this newsgroup. I just
saw everyone fussin.'
--
Randy Landers
ORION PRESS
--------------------------------------------------------------------
For 13MB of quality Classic Trek fan fiction, go to:
http://www.mindspring.com/~randylanders/archives/oaindex.html
For information on ORION PRESS and its fanzines, go to:
http://www.mindspring.com/~randylanders
>Micaela
>
>Randy Landers wrote:
>>
>> That one came through fine, Micaela. :)
>>
>> Netscape and Outlook Express...
>>
>> Gotta love 'em, right?
>>
Randy Landers
>Randy, Wildcat's view of your comments as to what should/shouldn't be
published
>on ASC was shared by several others, only a few of whom posted to
that effect.
> Ditto your comments on Jungle Kitty's attempt to get you to pay
attention to
>what you'd written.
Excuse me, but I know what I wrote. If someone or two or three wants
to misinterpret what I wrote, that's their concern. I'm a simple
person. I say what I think. If you want to look for a deeper meaning
to my writing, you've got the wrong dude.
I even asked Wildcat to cite where I had said it. Her response: <<I
guess what has happened here is that I *perceived* you said something
that you *perceived* you didn't.>> There's no perception here. Either
I said something or I didn't. The fact is, I didn't and Wildcat and
you know it. So, you change tactics...
>To tell Wildcat, a prize-winning author, that "words are important"
is the kind
>of comment toward *you* that Stephen was lamenting. To say nothing
of your
>loud complaints to 1800whine about unkindness and incivility.
I see. So if someone (such as a "prize-winning author") continues to
misinterpret the words I have written it's wrong of ME (and, since
we're resting on our laurels, a multiple award winning editor) to
point it out to them. Ahhh. Well, as a multiple award winning editor,
I'll say it again: Words are important. Wildcat "perceived" I had said
something I had not. If you want to "perceive" I said something, then
by all means tell the readers of the post "I think what he's trying to
say is yadda-yadda-yadda," and refrain from putting words into my
mouth. Thanks.
<<raku, estimating that between mailing costs and
paper/printing/binding, fanzines have maybe five years to go>>
Well, you might be right about THAT. :)
--
Randy Landers
ORION PRESS
--------------------------------------------------------------------
For 13MB of quality Classic Trek fan fiction, go to:
http://www.mindspring.com/~randylanders/archives/oaindex.html
For information on ORION PRESS and its fanzines, go to:
http://www.mindspring.com/~randylanders
>raku, estimating that between mailing costs and
paper/printing/binding,
>fanzines have maybe five years to go
>
>(note self-serving advertisement in .sig file)
>
>
>
> -----
>"Look! There's Barbie!" --a young friend on seeing Yeoman Rand for
the first
>time
>
>"The Learning Curve," hypertext TOS story, now online at
>http://members.aol.com/U2ukar
>and through http://members.aol.com/Raku2u
> -----
Biffan
>Gee, my TNG sales are going strong - recent New York Times bestsellers
>include
>the Q-Continuum Trilogy and the Dominion War books. If anything, fan
>interest
>in the TNG books has spiked upward since it went off the air.
You know, the pity is I DON'T care for the "Group" books - and the Q books, the
Dominion War books (of which 2 of 4 were simply novelizations of episodes!),
the Captain's Table, etc. don't appeal to me at all. I miss the old individual
novels, the ones with meat, the ones that held you. The characters in today's
pro novels are cardboard, flat, and unless you're willing to read in all four
facts of TREK (5 now that New Frontier has been brought into the mix), you
never get a complete story. I haven't bought a new TOS or TNG novel in years. I
feel like I as a reader haven't been considered. Yes, I realize that many
people DO like the series, do like the linked books, but I find them flat,
tasteless, and unappealing.
On the other hand, fanzine fiction like Randy's (and others) offers substance,
characters willing to change (while I understand Paramount's restraint on the
writing, unless a character can grow and change, there's no point to a story,
as David Gerrold said decades ago in his column in STARLOG!) and who show more
than a G/PG attitude. I turn to fan fiction for what the show can't or won't
do, based on broadcast standards and the expense of effects, cast, timing, etc.
(And I'm not referring to Slash, as I do not care for that side of fan
fiction.)
>My sales are strong and growing, especially TNG, while yours are dropping
>off
>to the point where you say TNG is dying.:) I must be doing something right -
>and, frankly, you must be doing something wrong, or your sales would be
>growing
I'd say more that Randy doesn't have the licensing or the distribution that you
have. He doesn't have the ability to ship thousands of $6.99 paperbacks out,
but rather produces a few hundred. Let he and you trade places, and we'd see
what happened to sales!
Web fiction override print? Web fiction has helped spread the concept of fan
fiction, has given more immediate access to it for many of us who used to wait
with baited breath for the next zine (where did I put that copy of "Spock
Enslaved"?), and has helped train budding writers, be they headed for pro
writing careers, to allow them to express themselves, to vent, or to grow in so
many other ways.
Fan fiction - especially print fan fiction - has been around longer than TREK
fiction novels, except maybe for SPOCK MUST DIE! (Remember - SPOCK ENSLAVED was
only the second TREK novel ever out, and that was YEARS after the series ended.
Fan fiction was rampant by then.) Not to mention, many of your own pro authors
came with a print fan fiction background (Peter David, Julia Ecklar, Ann
Crispin, Jean Lorrah, etc. - I summon them; will they come?)
I don't think condemning print fiction is a logical move - we've seen that
PADDs haven't replaced books by the time of TREK's 24th century. And I don't
think condemning one printer for stating his experience is grounds to berate
him.
Biffan
JWinterCNA
<snip>
Text, please. HTML, while easy to program, is a pain to read.
J
Katie Redshoes
<counse...@centuryinter.net> wrote:
[HTML code snipped]
Micaela,
You've posted 7 messages tonight in a format that no one except a user
of Outlook Express is likely to be able to read. Please post in plain
text rather than HTML, and more people will be able to see what you've
said.
Katie Redshoes
who read news with Netscape will be able to read your messages. I
suggest you go into Preferences and reset the default so your messages
don't post in HTML.
Katie Redshoes
<counse...@centuryinter.net> wrote:
>Katie - Thank you for telling me how to fix this. I am new to all of
>this and I did not realize that everything was coming through as html
>because it came back to me in text form. I did what you said about
>going into preferences and tried to change it. Did this one come
>through okay???? Micaela
This one came through just fine, Micaela.
--
JWinterCNA
damn, Damn, damn, damn, Damn, damn, damn, Damn, damn, damn, Damn,
damn, damn, Damn, damn, damn, Damn, damn, damn.>>>
This from John Ordover after discovering that "Alliance" was not for sale
(without a $10 million advance.)
God! I love stroking my own ego!
(Note to Stephen, Jocko, Greywolf, Jungle Kitty, and probably Constable Katie:
Don't say it, guys. I know exactly what you're thinking, and it's not worth
repeating. That goes double for you, John and Randy.)
J
Raku2u
>Words are important, Wildcat. Reading between the lines and putting them in
>my mouth is uncalled for. *chuckle* I put my foot in my mouth plenty,
>Wildcat. You don't have to try to shove it in there for me.
Randy, Wildcat's view of your comments as to what should/shouldn't be published
on ASC was shared by several others, only a few of whom posted to that effect.
Ditto your comments on Jungle Kitty's attempt to get you to pay attention to
what you'd written.
To tell Wildcat, a prize-winning author, that "words are important" is the kind
of comment toward *you* that Stephen was lamenting. To say nothing of your
loud complaints to 1800whine about unkindness and incivility.
raku, estimating that between mailing costs and paper/printing/binding,
Katie Redshoes
Taylor <dre...@roanoke.infi.net> wrote:
>Micaela wrote:
[snip]
> I was curious as to the sales of your recent
>> Imzadi issue as well. From a purely personal standpoint, TNG is far
>> from being dead. If you were to poll the majority of
>> Trekkers/Trekkies out here, I believe you will find that TNG is STILL
>> the most beloved of all the Trek series. It is aslo the crew that is
>> now on the big screen. If you search the web, you will also find more
>> sites devoted to fans of TNG than any other.
>
>Hmm...I'm not so sure about this. Constable Katie has the exact figures
>on stories posted to ASC, but I'd say "Voyager" produces the highest
>quantity of Trek fan fiction and Web sites. Randy's sales, to the best
>of my knowledge, also reflect this trend.
Here's the stats from my "year on the job" archive post back in
January:
Total stories archived by series (adult, parody & story categories
combined)
Archive date
1991-97 1998 Total Increase
TOS 184 101 285 55%
TNG 938 127 1,065 14%
DS9 350 140 490 40%
VOY 799 429 1,228 54%
Also, during the ASC Awards voting, Lyric informed us that over 800
Voyager stories were posted in 1998 that were eligible for voting.
That is far and away the highest of any series, as far as the ASC
Awards go. As far as the web goes, Lyric can speak to that, also, as
the keeper of the definitive Star Trek fan fiction on the net webpage.
This, of course, only speaks to the popularity of the four series in
terms of what writers are writing, and perhaps what readers are
responding to on the newsgroups. I wouldn't presume to say that this
says *anything* about which series is "most beloved." Each series
has its die-hard fans, and I daresay that a rabid DS9 fan (or TOS fan
or VOY fan) loves said series just as deeply as a rabid TNG fan. LOL
Randy Landers
>Total stories archived by series (adult, parody & story categories
>combined)
> Archive date
> 1991-97 1998 Total Increase
>TOS 184 101 285 55%
>TNG 938 127 1,065 14%
>DS9 350 140 490 40%
>VOY 799 429 1,228 54%
Wow. That really agrees with what I've been talking about TNG's
numbers with ORION PRESS. It would seem that fan-fiction for TNG is
slipping considerable. I mean, it's really scary how closely those
numbers compare with ours.
Thanks, Katie. Glad to see it might not be the zines but the genres
that are the problem!
Randy Landers
>>Unzadi wrote:
>>>> Yep, I'm paying attention. You-know-who and you-know-who will
definetly have
>>>> their story told.
>>(jumps for joy) *Very* glad to hear it, in case you can't tell :-)
Damn! You two have let the cat out of the bag about our Wesley/Quark
zine. Haven't you?! Egads, women! Have you no self-control
(ExtraWideEvilGrin)
LOL
--
Randy Landers
ORION PRESS
--------------------------------------------------------------------
For 13MB of quality Classic Trek fan fiction, go to:
http://www.mindspring.com/~randylanders/archives/oaindex.html
For information on ORION PRESS and its fanzines, go to:
http://www.mindspring.com/~randylanders
>=====
Katie Redshoes
Landers" <randyl...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Katie Redshoes wrote
>>Total stories archived by series (adult, parody & story categories
>>combined)
>> Archive date
>> 1991-97 1998 Total Increase
>>TOS 184 101 285 55%
>>TNG 938 127 1,065 14%
>>DS9 350 140 490 40%
>>VOY 799 429 1,228 54%
>
>Wow. That really agrees with what I've been talking about TNG's
>numbers with ORION PRESS. It would seem that fan-fiction for TNG is
>slipping considerable. I mean, it's really scary how closely those
>numbers compare with ours.
Keep in mind that those stats only reflect the number of stories by
series actually archived in 1998, not the number of stories actually
*posted*. We continue to run a large backlog, so the numbers actually
are incomplete. (And look for an archive update announcement very,
very, very soon)
Marlissa Campbell
Oooops! Gabrielle, I've been meaning to write to you for ages to let
you know I'd written a review of 'Oswiecim' for AIR. At least if you
had to get blind-sided, it was with a *favorable* review! <blushes
with embarrassment>.
Pen, I've meaning to write to you too! Got my copy of AIR the other
day, and I am *very* impressed.
Those of you who love zines, or even if you're just curious about
zines, should make a point to check this publication out. It *is*
possible to provide honest criticism without being snide, or to give
well-earned praise without being mindless or fawning. :-)
For that matter...I would think that proper reviews (serious,
informative--even if critical--reviews) of Star Trek zines would have
a place *here* on asc too.
Marlissa
Return address above is altered to discourage spam.
To email me, remove SEESIG.
And now for something completely different...
*PythonTrek*: Star Trek fanfiction on a Monty Python
theme. Pythonesque and other parodies; links to
Star Trek humor sites!
http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Network/6011/
Bet you weren't expecting that!
.
centuryinter.net> writes
> Baerbel Haddrell writes:
>
> I know, you don`t like New Frontier, the books I consider to be the
> best
> Star Trek series. It offers everything you are criticising
> concerning
> professional books.
>
> I would just like to say that I totally agree with your opinion
> here. While TNG still (and always will) remain my absolute
> favorite, the New Frontier book series is awesome. Peter David is
> pure genuis anyway (he wrote Imazdi!!!). There has been a good
> deal of fanfic being written recently (on the web) involving the
> characters of NF.
Yes? Really? I must have missed a lot then!
If anyone has NF fanfiction, please send it to me by email! That would
be great!
Feedback is guaranteed :-)
> Since the crew are peers of both TNG and DS( -
> the xover opportunities are also endless. I know that there are
> MANY NF fans out here who would support fanzines from this series
> as well - whether ongoing or one-shot. Again - just a little input
> from the CUSTOMER arena.
Unfortunately Randy already told me a long time ago that he will never
publish NF fanfiction.
Again, if someone offers NF fanfiction in print, I would love to get it!
>
> Micaela
>
Baerbel Haddrell
.
centuryinter.net> writes
> Baerbel: New Frontier mailing list?????? Where and how can I sign
> up?
Go to: http://www.onelist.com
Type in New Frontier and you get the instructions you need for joining.
You can also already read then what had been posted before.
There is also All Peter David which I can also recommend. It deals with
all aspects of Peter`s work.
Peter David reads and sometimes contributes to both lists which is very
interesting.
Therefore it is important NOT to post any fanfiction there. For this
there is an extra list you can join as well. Unfortunately it is VERY
quiet there.
I like these lists very much but usually it is either very quiet or
extremely busy. I am sure, in a few months when his next books are out
it will get busy again.
Baerbel Haddrell