Baseball Three Tags
RonSanta
(1) With R1 stealing on the pitch, B1 grounds to F4 who bobbles the ball,
recovers, and then attempts to tag R1 before he has reached 2nd. The tag
is applied, however, the ball pops out of the glove after the tag.
(2) With R1 stealing on the pitch, B1 grounds to F4 who bobbles the ball,
recovers, and from the ground then attempts to tag 2nd with his glove.
The tag of 2nd beats R1, however, the ball pops out of the glove after the
tag.
(3) With R1 stealing on the pitch, B1 grounds to F4 who bobbles the ball,
recovers, and then tosses to F6 who is now standing on 2nd. The ball
arrives in F6's glove before R1 touches 2nd, however, immediately
thereafter F6 is upended by the sliding R1 and the ball pops out of F6's
glove.
Question: Is R1 out or safe in each instance?
Ronald Santa, NCUA, PO Box 4062, Middletown, RI 02842
Baseball, Softball, & Volleyball, NASO
WyattPhoto
>From: rons...@aol.com (RonSanta)
>Date: 27 Mar 1996 08:27:16 -0500
These situations almost give rise to the all too-familiar manager's
response:
"He held the ball long enough, the runner is OUT!"
At a recent pro umpire camp, the instructors taught us that time of
possession is NOT the validating factor when judging a catch. They also
taught us that if a manager did respond that way, ask the manager:
"Coach, how long is long enough? One second? Five seconds? Give me
a time here."
Reference - Rule 2 DEFINITIONS - CATCH:
"In establishing the validity of the catch, the fielder shall hold the
ball long enough to prove that he has complete control of the ball AND
that his release of the ball is VOLUNTARY and INTENTIONAL." (Emphasis
mine)
(1) <The tag is applied, however, the ball pops out of the glove after the
tag.> F4 did not have complete control of the ball and F4's release of
the ball was not voluntary and intentional. My ruling - NO CATCH, R1 is
SAFE at 2B.
(2) <The tag of 2nd beats R1, however, the ball pops out of the glove
after the tag.> Again, F4 did not have complete control of the ball and
F4's release of the ball was not voluntary and intentional. My ruling -
NO CATCH, R1 is SAFE at 2B.
(3) <The ball arrives in F6's glove before R1 touches 2nd, however,
immediately thereafter F6 is upended by the sliding R1 and the ball pops
out of F6's glove.> Once again, F6 did not have complete control of the
ball and F6's release of the ball was not voluntary and intentional. My
ruling - NO CATCH, R1 is SAFE at 2B.
Each of these scenarios is an excellent example of why umpires MUST use
and have good TIMING, let the "play happen", and THEN make the call.
BTW, my "two-cents" here is based solely on the above descriptions. If in
any of the above cases, either F4 or F6 were in the act of removing the
ball from their gloves, then a CATCH COULD be ruled and R1 COULD be OUT.
Tom Wyatt
LL Umpire, District 64, Northern CA
Member NASO
Wyatt...@aol.com
aka Ump...@aol.com
http://users.aol.com/WyattPhoto/
James Mantle u
: Three separate plays (Pro Rules):
: (1) With R1 stealing on the pitch, B1 grounds to F4 who bobbles the ball,
: recovers, and then attempts to tag R1 before he has reached 2nd. The tag
: is applied, however, the ball pops out of the glove after the tag.
: (2) With R1 stealing on the pitch, B1 grounds to F4 who bobbles the ball,
: recovers, and from the ground then attempts to tag 2nd with his glove.
: The tag of 2nd beats R1, however, the ball pops out of the glove after the
: tag.
: (3) With R1 stealing on the pitch, B1 grounds to F4 who bobbles the ball,
: recovers, and then tosses to F6 who is now standing on 2nd. The ball
: arrives in F6's glove before R1 touches 2nd, however, immediately
: thereafter F6 is upended by the sliding R1 and the ball pops out of F6's
: glove.
: Question: Is R1 out or safe in each instance?
: Ronald Santa, NCUA, PO Box 4062, Middletown, RI 02842
: Baseball, Softball, & Volleyball, NASO
Good questions. Same answer from me on all three. This is not a catch
situation, so ignore the definition of catch in 2.00. The requirement for
the outs are that the defensive player had secure posession in the hand
or glove at the time of the tag. All three are judgement calls, so the
best answer I can make without seeing the plays is "maybe".
Because the ball popped out so soon after the attempt, it could be argued
that it wasn't secure posession. From this seat, I would be inclined
to call safe on all three plays. If you want at least one out, I would
lean towards #3.
--
= Jim Mantle mant...@mach1.wlu.ca =
= MBA Student, School of Business and Economics =
= Wilfrid Laurier University, Waterloo/Ontario/Canada =
Ace PH
In number 2, the force play: I say runner is out, since this is not a
"catch" play, and F4 needs only momentary control of the ball while he is
touching the base. No control in play (3), ergo, no force.
Yes, "safe" on the other two, from the way they are described.
Ace in CT
graine
>
>Three separate plays (Pro Rules):
>(1) With R1 stealing on the pitch, B1 grounds to F4 who bobbles the
ball,
>recovers, and then attempts to tag R1 before he has reached 2nd. The
tag
>is applied, however, the ball pops out of the glove after the tag.
>(2) With R1 stealing on the pitch, B1 grounds to F4 who bobbles the
ball,
>recovers, and from the ground then attempts to tag 2nd with his glove.
>The tag of 2nd beats R1, however, the ball pops out of the glove after
the
>tag.
>(3) With R1 stealing on the pitch, B1 grounds to F4 who bobbles the
ball,
>recovers, and then tosses to F6 who is now standing on 2nd. The ball
>arrives in F6's glove before R1 touches 2nd, however, immediately
>thereafter F6 is upended by the sliding R1 and the ball pops out of F6's
>glove.
>Question: Is R1 out or safe in each instance?
Ron:
Technically, it's a secure possession rather than a catch call. I'd tend
to bang out the tagged base outs quickly, unless the ball is trapped or
juggled at the time of the tag. If on the tagged player situation the
ball pops out during the tag, then it's a no tag call.
With experience, this becomes a pragmatic thing. If there's enough
possession for me to vocalize the out before the ball drops, the
tag's good. If I wasn't confident enough of the possession to make the
call quickly, and the ball drops before the call, the tag's no good.
I like to tell managers, "I know he sold you on possession, but the rule
say he's gotta sell me, and he's not going to do that by scrmbling for
the ball in the runner's dust cloud!"
George Raine
UIC Dartmouth, NS, Canada
Robert Menschel
ew...@chattanooga.net wrote to All
re: Re: Baseball Three Tags
> "In establishing the validity of the catch, the fielder shall hold the
> ball long enough to prove that he has complete control of the ball AND
> that his release of the ball is VOLUNTARY and INTENTIONAL." (Emphasis
> So, if a guy makes a diving catch into the wall and is knocked
> unconscious, even though the ball is in his glove, it's no catch?
If the ball remains in his glove, he has "complete control" of the ball
even if he's unconcious. The batter is out.
If the ball rolls or pops out of the glove, the batter is not out.
Robert Menschel
Member: National Association of Sports Officials (NASO)
Umpire: Little League
FidoNet: Robert Menschel at 1:203/2019
Internet: Robert....@2019.gigo.com
... If money is the root of all evil, why do churches want it so badly?
___ TagDude 0.87 [Unregistered] with 12308 taglines.
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: Fidonet: Robert Menschel 1:203/2019 .. speaking for only myself.
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John C. Lotz
>So, if a guy makes a diving catch into the wall and is knocked
>unconscious, even though the ball is in his glove, it's no catch?
Correct -- until another fielder picks up the ball, it COULD be a "no catch"
situation... Of course, any runners on base may advance as soon as the ball
was touched by the, now, unconscious fielder.
Aloha, John
/****************/
John C. Lotz
Honolulu, Hawaii
/****************/
Robert Portman
Montreal outfield caught the ball, slammed into the wall and colapsed.
He held the ball a good 30 seconds, but when the ball rolled out,
they called it a hit.
In article <ewwa-30039...@portb00.chattanooga.net>, ew...@chattanooga.net (J. Andrew Lipscomb) writes:
|> > "In establishing the validity of the catch, the fielder shall hold the
|> > ball long enough to prove that he has complete control of the ball AND
|> > that his release of the ball is VOLUNTARY and INTENTIONAL." (Emphasis
|>
|> So, if a guy makes a diving catch into the wall and is knocked
|> unconscious, even though the ball is in his glove, it's no catch?
|>
|> J. Andrew Lipscomb <ew...@chattanooga.net, them...@delphi.com>
|> PGP keys by request
--
Bob Portman | Opinions expressed here | rob...@meaddata.com
LEXIS-NEXIS | do not represent those of | ...!uunet!meaddata!robert
P.O. Box 933 | Lexis-Nexis |
Dayton, Ohio 45401 | |
Chester L. Buffalo
>On Mar 30, 1996,
>ew...@chattanooga.net wrote to All
>re: Re: Baseball Three Tags
> > "In establishing the validity of the catch, the fielder shall hold the
... big snip ...
>Robert Menschel
>Member: National Association of Sports Officials (NASO)
>Umpire: Little League
>FidoNet: Robert Menschel at 1:203/2019
>Internet: Robert....@2019.gigo.com
>... If money is the root of all evil, why do churches want it so badly?
>___ TagDude 0.87 [Unregistered] with 12308 taglines.
>--
>: Fidonet: Robert Menschel 1:203/2019 .. speaking for only myself.
>: Internet: Robert....@tefnut.gigo.com
Thanks for the clarification. I umpire FP softball and the call is the
same. BTW: The correct quote is "The LOVE of money is the root of all
evil."
Call 'em as ya see 'em.
Chester L. Buffalo
Ken McManus
>
>> "In establishing the validity of the catch, the fielder shall hold the
>> that his release of the ball is VOLUNTARY and INTENTIONAL." (Emphasis
>
>So, if a guy makes a diving catch into the wall and is knocked
>unconscious, even though the ball is in his glove, it's no catch?
>
>J. Andrew Lipscomb <ew...@chattanooga.net, them...@delphi.com>
>PGP keys by request
No, of course not! The guiding principle in the last sentence of the
definition of a catch is an excellent one for making your case to the
other side's manager/coach ... but let's not be silly.
Ken in Kentucky