Calculation of recharge rate for RAP power system
craby
I currently have a stand alone remote power system for my house.
It consists of 14 x 185W Sharp Panels (5 amps each), and 24 Hoppecke
OPZS batteries in a 48 volt configuration. The batteries are the 1200
series, and have a C10 of 1210. I use a PSA RAP 5 inverter.
Generally speaking, we bring in anything from 9-15kwh of power a day
(on average), but we tend to only use around 6 or 9 kwh of power a day.
My question is this. Although we bring in more PV power than the power
used each day, it seems to take a long time to charge from a specific
gravity of 1.23 to the max of 1.24. After a few days of cloudy
weather, sometimes we go backwards a little bit with our power, and the
SG drops from the usual max level to 1.23 (which I understand is around
90%).
The regulator is a plasmatronics PL60, and is currently going into
float each day, however the SG is still at 1.23, but it now crawling up
over 1.23 (but only after a few days). So far this week, I've brought
in around 12kwh of power more than what I've used.
Generally, it takes about a week or so to move to the full 1.24, but I
was wondering if there's a formula or calculation tool I can use to
calculate the amount of recharge I can get each day? It would be good
to be able to know this, as its tempting at the moment to just throw
the generator on for a few hours and max it up if its going to take an
excessive period to charge the remainder with the panels.
regards,
~~NoMad~~
acid batteries. What you will find is that SG lags the battery state of
charge by many hours. This is because the concentrated acid deep within the
plates takes a long time to diffuse out to the surrounding solution. If
batteries are trickle charged or 'floated' for about a week after a full
charge you can be sure of getting an accurate 'full charge' SG reading.
Use of an amp-hour meter is the best way to keep track of your batteries on
a daily basis. Just make sure you put back in more amp-hours than you
discharge each night. You may need to set your float voltage a bit higher
for this to happen. You can 'sulphate' and permanently damage your batteries
if you undercharge them on a daily basis.
NM
"craby" <cr...@internode.on.net> wrote in message
news:1145087165.5...@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
craby
Given that the batteries are 1500AH each, I suppose it will take some
time to charge them fully. Looking at it from a different viewpoint,
my surplus power for the week is equivalent to what I'd get if I ran
the generator for 2 hours, so all things considered, it might take a
week or two or charge it fully. I think the main thing that concerns
me is the point you raised, and thats about the batteries taking an
excessive period to return to 100%. The system runs an equalisation
phase once a month, but I'd certainly prefer that it returned to a full
charge SG within a few days of dropping 10% than taking a week or more.
I'll have to double check the float setting as you've suggested, as it
could be the problem i.e. its floating the battery too early to prevent
a full charge.
regards,
~~NoMad~~
conditions. If you cycle your batteries daily like I do there simply aren't
enough sunlit hours in a day to do this. I discharge about 20% of the
battery capacity each evening and the solar recharges them about 22.5%
during the day to make up for losses in the battery system. I usually end up
with about a 1.225 SG at the end of the day.
Once a month I do a long equalization using the generator to supply my
evening needs for one night so the batteries can stay topped up for at least
24 hours. After this I carefully check the SG and record the numbers for
each cell to make sure no cell is going south on me. If a cell is low I
continue the C/100 equalization charge for another day.
NM
"craby" <cr...@internode.on.net> wrote in message
news:1145174397.6...@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
William P.N. Smith
>continue the C/100 equalization charge for another day.
I'm not sure that means what you think it means. AFAICT equalizing
requires sufficient overcharge to get every cell gassing enough that
the bubbles will stir up the electrolyte and eliminate stratification.
I doubt C/100 will do it...
Another thought, since your panel charge rate is only C/17, why not
just bypass your controller for a few days instead of equalizing? As
long as you get sufficient bubbling to stir up the electrolyte, and
get all the cells into overcharge, you've pretty much covered the
requirement for equalizing, yes?
~~NoMad~~
If I notice that I am not getting at least a 105% charge each day I manually
bypass the controller and force a short equalization charge at rates of up
to C/20.
It only takes a few minutes of bubbling briskly to stir up the electrolyte
but a good equalization charge takes a long time at a low rate. Too fast an
equalization charge will damage the positive plates and cause them to shed
active material.
NM
"William P.N. Smith" <news...@compusmiths.com> wrote in message
news:6ks442p6rdffou8cl...@4ax.com...
George Ghio
What is the PL60 float voltage set at?
Do you have a copy of the full manual?
I float my 840Ah batteries at 15 volts(PL40) This makes the batteries
bubble quite well with out being excessive to the point of serious water
loss. I top them up once a year - 3 litres.
wmbjk
wrote:
>I float my 840Ah batteries at 15 volts(PL40) This makes the batteries
>bubble quite well
I'll assume that you know the correct meaning of the term "float"....
The purpose of float charging is to *maintain* a full charge. That
only requires sufficient current to make up for self-discharge. In
multiple-stage charging, voltage during bulk and absorption stages is
limited to about 14.5 (12V wet battery), and then *reduced* to about
13.5 for float stage. For example, the MX60 defaults are 14.4
absorption, and 13.6 float.
Apparently you've defeated your controller's three-stage charging
feature by setting the float voltage *above* the usual recommendations
for bulk and absorption. If you believe that's good practice, then
what is the point in having a multiple-stage charge controller? Can
you provide a link to any battery manufacturer who recommends a float
voltage of 15 so that electrolyte is "bubbling quite well" during
float? If not, then why do you believe it makes sense to exceed the
usual recommendation by so much?
Wayne
~~NoMad~~
but Float is a ridiculous concept for people who cycle their batteries on a
daily basis. There is no time in the solar day to 'maintain' the batteries
because they are always in use. I set my float voltage to 15.2volts.. That
way my batteries get almost a full charge every solar day.
Float is for people who storing and not using their batteries. Most three
stage chargers are programmed for people who don't actually use their
batteries.
NM
"wmbjk" <wmbjk...@citlink.net> wrote in message
news:apfa42t6tav1vn5d6...@4ax.com...
Solar Flare
days? You may be needlessly killing your batteries. Read up on the
other charge rates and use them.
"~~NoMad~~" <understand...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4445...@newsfeed.x-privat.net...
wmbjk
<understand...@gmail.com> wrote:
>"wmbjk" <wmbjk...@citlink.net> wrote in message
>news:apfa42t6tav1vn5d6...@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 19 Apr 2006 00:01:34 +1000, George Ghio <A...@nomailhere.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>I float my 840Ah batteries at 15 volts(PL40) This makes the batteries
>>>bubble quite well
>>
>> I'll assume that you know the correct meaning of the term "float"....
>>
>> The purpose of float charging is to *maintain* a full charge. That
>> only requires sufficient current to make up for self-discharge. In
>> multiple-stage charging, voltage during bulk and absorption stages is
>> limited to about 14.5 (12V wet battery), and then *reduced* to about
>> 13.5 for float stage. For example, the MX60 defaults are 14.4
>> absorption, and 13.6 float.
>>
>> Apparently you've defeated your controller's three-stage charging
>> feature by setting the float voltage *above* the usual recommendations
>> for bulk and absorption. If you believe that's good practice, then
>> what is the point in having a multiple-stage charge controller? Can
>> you provide a link to any battery manufacturer who recommends a float
>> voltage of 15 so that electrolyte is "bubbling quite well" during
>> float? If not, then why do you believe it makes sense to exceed the
>> usual recommendation by so much?
>>
>> Wayne
>Excuse Me,
>
> but Float is a ridiculous concept for people who cycle their batteries on a
>daily basis. There is no time in the solar day to 'maintain' the batteries
>because they are always in use.
It's the difference between input and use, the relationship between
time of consumption and generation, and the logic of the controller
that dictate float-voltage time.
>I set my float voltage to 15.2volts.. That
>way my batteries get almost a full charge every solar day.
Once they're fully-charged, there's no need to keep the voltage so
high if your charge controller has the option to lower it. It isn't
ideal, but sometimes our own system runs at higher than necessary
voltage - whenever overnight wind power is being regulated by the
turbine's simple dump-controller.
Regardless, the guy I was responding to has claimed in the past that
his batteries are fully-charged most days before noon. If you'd like
to explain to him why he should be calling his sunny afternoons with
fully-charged batteries something other than "float" time, then be my
guest. :-)
>Float is for people who storing and not using their batteries. Most three
>stage chargers are programmed for people who don't actually use their
>batteries.
>
>NM
Nonsense. Generally, a properly-sized setup will necessarily have an
excess of energy occasionally in winter, and frequently during summer.
Even though we can shift a higher percentage of our consumption than
most by using discretionary loads such as clothes and dish washing, or
sometimes *because* of that load scheduling, our batteries often spend
substantial time at float voltage. As much as about 3 hours per day
recently for instance. Or all day when we have good wind, or even all
night as I mentioned. So whenever conditions warrant it we want the
solar charging voltage dialed back. Most others *should* have the same
need to varying degrees, which is why so many charge controllers have
the capability.
Wayne
George Ghio
wmbjk wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Apr 2006 00:01:34 +1000, George Ghio <A...@nomailhere.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>I float my 840Ah batteries at 15 volts(PL40) This makes the batteries
>>bubble quite well
>
>
> I'll assume that you know the correct meaning of the term "float"....
I know what it means in relation to the PL series of regulators which is
the question here.
>
> The purpose of float charging is to *maintain* a full charge. That
> only requires sufficient current to make up for self-discharge. In
> multiple-stage charging, voltage during bulk and absorption stages is
> limited to about 14.5 (12V wet battery), and then *reduced* to about
> 13.5 for float stage. For example, the MX60 defaults are 14.4
> absorption, and 13.6 float.
>
> Apparently you've defeated your controller's three-stage charging
> feature by setting the float voltage *above* the usual recommendations
> for bulk and absorption. If you believe that's good practice, then
> what is the point in having a multiple-stage charge controller? Can
> you provide a link to any battery manufacturer who recommends a float
> voltage of 15 so that electrolyte is "bubbling quite well" during
> float? If not, then why do you believe it makes sense to exceed the
> usual recommendation by so much?
>
> Wayne
Suggest you down load the manual and learn what is being said before
you open your mouth to flaunt your ignorance
George Ghio
Solar Flare wrote:
> What if you forget to drain them off or have no load on them for a few
> days? You may be needlessly killing your batteries. Read up on the
> other charge rates and use them.
Not so. The PL regs go from "Boost mode" To "Float" at a pre-set voltage.
For the reg to switch back to boost the voltage must drop below another
trigger voltage.
wmbjk
wrote:
>wmbjk wrote:
>> On Wed, 19 Apr 2006 00:01:34 +1000, George Ghio <A...@nomailhere.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I float my 840Ah batteries at 15 volts(PL40) This makes the batteries
>>>bubble quite well
>>
>>
>> I'll assume that you know the correct meaning of the term "float"....
>
>I know what it means in relation to the PL series of regulators which is
>the question here.
The PL series regulators are designed for three-stage charging.
They're pretty typical in that regard except for using the term
"boost" for what most maker's call "bulk". If there was any difference
between the PLs and other three-stage controllers which would explain
your need to defeat the three-stage process, then I'm sure you'd have
explained what those differences are instead of weaseling.
>> The purpose of float charging is to *maintain* a full charge. That
>> only requires sufficient current to make up for self-discharge. In
>> multiple-stage charging, voltage during bulk and absorption stages is
>> limited to about 14.5 (12V wet battery), and then *reduced* to about
>> 13.5 for float stage. For example, the MX60 defaults are 14.4
>> absorption, and 13.6 float.
>>
>> Apparently you've defeated your controller's three-stage charging
>> feature by setting the float voltage *above* the usual recommendations
>> for bulk and absorption. If you believe that's good practice, then
>> what is the point in having a multiple-stage charge controller? Can
>> you provide a link to any battery manufacturer who recommends a float
>> voltage of 15 so that electrolyte is "bubbling quite well" during
>> float? If not, then why do you believe it makes sense to exceed the
>> usual recommendation by so much?
>>
>> Wayne
> Suggest you down load the manual and learn what is being said
OK .... Here are Plasmatronic's recommended charge settings
http://www.rpc.com.au/products/services/REG-LSettings.pdf. They quite
clearly recommend a float setting of 13.5V for the most common type of
(12V) flooded batteries.
>before you open your mouth to flaunt your ignorance
The typical three-stage settings I mentioned yesterday are the same as
the Plasmatronics numbers available from the PRC link above. Would you
say that Plasmatronics and RPC are "flaunting ignorance"?
Now, why don't *you* post a link to your battery maker's float-voltage
recommendation so that we may see how much ignorance they're
supposedly flaunting.
Wayne
wmbjk
wrote:
>Solar Flare wrote:
>> You may be needlessly killing your batteries. Read up on the
>> other charge rates and use them.
>Not so. The PL regs go from "Boost mode" To "Float" at a pre-set voltage.
No. They go from boost to absorption. Once absorption time has expired
they go to float. Pretty much like every other three-stage controller.
Wayne
Solar Flare
boost levels.
"George Ghio" <A...@nomailhere.com> wrote in message
news:4445a...@news.chariot.net.au...
George Ghio
It would be a fair bet that he is using programme "0" as he has not
said anything about changing the settings, which would require the use
of programme "4".
Using programme "0" "EMAX" is 16V and "ETIM" is 1Hour
The use of programme "4" would allow "ETIM" to be increased and allow
"EFRQ" to be adjusted to as often as 20 days to 150 days as required.
The same for other settings such as "ABSV" which can be adjusted from
13.5V to 15.5V and "ATIM" can be adjusted to as high as 4 Hours.
George Ghio
settings.
I have used a number of different settings for my PL over the years I
have owned it. The present settings are working very well as they are.
So why should I take advice from a sad fellow who has spent years
flaunting his inability to document his system aside from some weights
and and the number of dishes he can fit in the dish washer?
wmbjk
wrote:
>> On Wed, 19 Apr 2006 13:24:40 +1000, George Ghio <A...@nomailhere.com>
>> wrote:
>>>wmbjk wrote:
>>>>On Wed, 19 Apr 2006 00:01:34 +1000, George Ghio <A...@nomailhere.com>
>>>>wrote:
>>> Suggest you down load the manual and learn what is being said
>>
>>
>> OK .... Here are Plasmatronic's recommended charge settings
>> http://www.rpc.com.au/products/services/REG-LSettings.pdf. They quite
>> clearly recommend a float setting of 13.5V for the most common type of
>> (12V) flooded batteries.
>>
>>
>>>before you open your mouth to flaunt your ignorance
>>
>>
>> The typical three-stage settings I mentioned yesterday are the same as
>> the Plasmatronics numbers available from the PRC link above. Would you
>> say that Plasmatronics and RPC are "flaunting ignorance"?
>>
>> Now, why don't *you* post a link to your battery maker's float-voltage
>> recommendation so that we may see how much ignorance they're
>> supposedly flaunting.
>>
>> Wayne
>Do you know the difference between Default settings and user programmed
>settings.
The default settings on your controller match generic recommendations
for flooded LA batteries. Tweaking those settings somewhat to suit a
particular application, or to match them to a battery maker's
recommendations, is sensible practice. Defeating the three-stage
process altogether as you've done is quackery. If you believe you have
good reason, then let's see it.
>I have used a number of different settings for my PL over the years I
>have owned it. The present settings are working very well as they are.
It's obvious that you don't understand what "working well" entails.
But if you really believe that long hours floating at 15V makes sense,
then I ask again, why bother owning a three-stage charger? If float is
set to 15, then what are your boost and absorption settings?
>So why should I take advice from a sad fellow who has spent years
>flaunting his inability to document his system aside from some weights
>and and the number of dishes he can fit in the dish washer?
Instead of flinging your dung like a chimp, you should heed the advice
of the manufacturers of your controller and batteries. It's beyond
stupid to pay for so many battery replacements yet still try to
convince readers that you have some special knowledge that you can't
put into words.
I posted Plasmatronic's recommendations. It's plain that they intend a
standard bulk/absorption/float charging routine. How is it that you
can't explain why you've decided to throw their advice out the window?
Wayne
wmbjk
wrote:
>Gymmy Bob wrote:
>> George, read the damn post. He is using float settings cranked up to
>> boost levels.
>Where does he say that.
NoMad wrote: "I set my float voltage to 15.2volts". The generic
bulk-charging voltage recommendation for a 12V flooded LA battery is
about 14.5V. Therefore, the Solar Faker is more correct, dashing your
dreams of winning a gold against him in the Home Power Special
Olympics.
>It would be a fair bet that he is using programme "0"
Wrong again, there isn't any evidence at hand that he owns a PL
controller. His may even be single-stage, since some of those (like
our Whisper controller) use the term "float" to describe their
regulating voltage.
> as he has not
>said anything about changing the settings, which would require the use
>of programme "4".
Holy friggin smokescreen Batman! Do you really think that rattling off
irrelevant and transparent BS does you any good?
>Using programme "0" "EMAX" is 16V and "ETIM" is 1Hour
>The use of programme "4" would allow "ETIM" to be increased and allow
>"EFRQ" to be adjusted to as often as 20 days to 150 days as required.
*If* he had a PL, then EMAX is equalization voltage, ETIM is
equalization time, and EFRQ is equalization frequency. What has any of
that to do with float-voltage settings Captain Diversion?
>The same for other settings such as "ABSV" which can be adjusted from
>13.5V to 15.5V and "ATIM" can be adjusted to as high as 4 Hours.
Absorption voltage and time. The only bearing they have on this
discussion is that yesterday you forgot that PL controllers even had
an absorption stage.
It's increasingly difficult to believe your claims of being a
Plasmatronics dealer, and if any of their people are reading I bet
they're mortified.
Wayne
George Ghio
craby
direction, but I'll put some more info in now anyway.
I've completed checking the batteries and the systems renewable inputs
for the last week. After noting the day that it went to 1.23 SG, the
system went to 1.24 yesterday, after a total of around 20kw/h of
additional power above my daily usage was brought in. It now reads a
steady 1.24 SG. That said, I suppose I need around 4 or 5 sunny days
to increase the SG from 1.23 to 1.24.
My PL60 is set to programme 4, and all the float and other values were
set by the installer. The bank of batteries is pretty big, but under
ordinary circumstances I always bring in more than I use, even on
mostly overcast days, so it hasn't proven to be much of an issue until
the last couple of weeks where it was overcast pretty well continuously
for about a week and a half, hence my original question.
So far I've found the operation of the plasmatronic unit to be spot on,
in that it goes through the various modes throughout the day, together
with undertaking equalisation charging. Given the amount of renewable
energy I bring in, the generator only runs once a month for an hour as
part of the test cycle, as there's enough renewable power to do
equalisation.
I can post any of my setting info or inverter reports if anyone wants
that info.
regards,
wmbjk
>I've completed checking the batteries and the systems renewable inputs
>for the last week. After noting the day that it went to 1.23 SG, the
>system went to 1.24 yesterday, after a total of around 20kw/h of
>additional power above my daily usage was brought in. It now reads a
>steady 1.24 SG. That said, I suppose I need around 4 or 5 sunny days
>to increase the SG from 1.23 to 1.24.
>
>My PL60 is set to programme 4, and all the float and other values were
>set by the installer.
As you may have gathered from reading some of the responses here,
installers don't necessarily program controllers perfectly. You might
check your paperwork to see if it includes specific charging
recommendations from the battery manufacturer, which you could use to
verify that the controller settings are at least close. The idea is
that the batteries be sufficiently charged during boost (bulk) phase,
so that a charge at absorption voltage for absorption time results in
a full charge, then float charging maintains 100%.
There's some latitude in the settings. For instance, a high boost
voltage (to minimize controller throttling and maximize production)
might result in absorption stage starting early. This could have the
effect of leaving the absorption time too short, resulting in a less
than full charge.
Don't forget that your energy consumption is a small factor in
tweaking charge settings. For instance, low consumption (more current
available for charging) during boost phase could have an effect
similar to raising the boost voltage setting.
Considering your comments thus far, and so long as your existing
settings are typical, you might try extending the absorption time 30
minutes to see if that takes you in the right direction.
Wayne
Solar Flare
If you want to respond to the OP then respond to his post.
"George Ghio" <A...@nomailhere.com> wrote in message
news:444831b3$1...@news.chariot.net.au...
George Ghio
BMAX
EMAX
ETIM
EFRQ
ABSV
ATIM
FLTV
HYST
BRTN
That aside I don't think you will ever see 100% charge with a hydrometer
while the system is in use. That said, it won't make a difference to the
system as you seem to hit at least 90% most days. It does not pay to be
too pedantic about expectations.
One of my customers has a large 48V generator for a battery charger. For
some six months after the system was installed he would ring me up to
ask why the generator would not start on a regular basis.
Thing was he had asked for a photovoltaic system that would only require
the minimal amount of gen boost. That is what was supplied.
Got a phone call from him one day, he was hooting, the gen had started.
Mind you this was nearly two months into winter. In the end I suggested
that he tape over the screen on the inverter. The numbers only made him
concerned as they did not match the numbers on his PL.
Really, it's just a matter of relaxing. Keep an eye on the numbers for
battery volts and amps going in and don't give a hoot unless they show a
marked discrepancy.
Can I ask who did the installation?
George
George Ghio
The best you will get is half a point and that is for being a good parrot.
But like a parrot your utterances are bereft of any understanding of
what you are saying.
George Ghio
I have responded to craby, you and runaway wayne.
wmbjk
wrote:
>Yes I would like to see the values for:
>BMAX
>EMAX
>ETIM
>EFRQ
>ABSV
>ATIM
>FLTV
>HYST
>BRTN
Originally you only wanted to know his float voltage, and implied that
it might need to be raised to 60V. Yet now you want everything
including equalization settings for some strange reason. Perhaps it
would speed the Ghinius Mark ll diagnosis if he tells you which way he
hangs his toilet paper as well.
>That aside I don't think you will ever see 100% charge with a hydrometer
>while the system is in use.
Your "thinking" aside, the OP has written that he *does* reach 100%
occasionally. He'd like it to happen more often.
If you don't believe he'll ever see 100% "in use", then that seems
like something you would have mentioned in your first response. Along
with your previous claim that SG readings aren't valid unless taken
after 12 hours OC. At the time you explained how failure to test at
rest would result in overly *high* readings. Now you seem to be saying
that in-service readings will be overly *low*. Which is it?
> That said, it won't make a difference to the
>system as you seem to hit at least 90% most days. It does not pay to be
>too pedantic about expectations.
Apparently he has more than enough PV to bring his batteries to full
charge most cycles. Why shouldn't he adjust his controller so that it
works as intended? Why do you believe that it's good practice for you
to set float far above normal recommendations, yet "pedantic" for
others to even inquire about tweaking their settings?
>Really, it's just a matter of relaxing.
Don't worry, be happy? What happened to the goal of "bubbling quite
well"?
> Keep an eye on the numbers for
>battery volts and amps going in and don't give a hoot unless they show a
>marked discrepancy.
A marked discrepancy with owls perhaps....
Wayne
wmbjk
wrote:
>wmbjk wrote:
So even though my commentary is at odds with your own, you're unable
to find any fault with it other than to claim that it's parroting. Of
what, Plasmatronics' recommendations? At least we've finally learned
why you've worked so hard at being a weasel - it was to avoid being
mistaken for a parrot! Oh well, no harm done. It's not like the posts
are archived or anything.
Wayne
George Ghio
Solar Flare
to my post.
As you might note I am not addressing the OP or responding to any of
his subject matter with this post. I am sure the OP does not think I
am addressing him at this point and either do you.
Maybe if you stopped trying to get even with the group troll you may
be able to discuss rationally instead of emotional outbursts. Be a man
and use your killfilters the way the were designed.
"George Ghio" <A...@nomailhere.com> wrote in message
news:444a1...@news.chariot.net.au...
Lectron_Nuis
[ EDIT - Please quote properly and do not top-post;
quote the part you respond to, attribute the quote,
then put your response underneath.
Cut all that you don't directly respond to.
Corrected]
>>> "George Ghio" <A...@nomailhere.com> wrote in message
>>> news:444831b3$1...@news.chariot.net.au...
>>>>Funny the OP seems to be craby. Which I responded to.
>>>>
>>> No. You responded to NoMad and he was not the OP.
>>>
>>> If you want to respond to the OP then respond to his post.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I have responded to craby, you and runaway wayne.
>>
<holding sides Laffink fit to bust>
..pharking Hilarious..!!
GymmyBob//Bengi//SolarPhukUP
...the UseNET 'mentor'..!!!
Is there *anything* this man [loose use] does not have as
knowledge? <rhetorical>
Ln
--
posted in response
to<zJidnc7Ig8EyStfZ...@golden.net>
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