I KNOW YOU GONNA READ THIS!!!
Gavin Bailey
>This isn't really an answer. It's more fuel to the fire. It seems that
>this is the case in several instances for British music. They take a good,
>raw, original American musical style and copy it to make it palatable to
>the masses. The Beatles started out playing Carl Perkins, etc., tunes.
Yes, but their later work owes as much to UK musical tradition as to the US,
as well as depending on their own individual talents.
>Their mass appeal brought them unlimited fame and money. The Yardbirds,
>Led Zeppelin, Cream, Eric Clapton, you name it, did the same thing.
While certainly in there might be a case that the UK groups you mention were
more successful because they were white, you're ignoring their own individual
talents. Led Zeppelin, while famous for "borrowing" and reworking US
urban/rural blues also had a strong British folk influence. Cream might be
the closest to your idea of UK musicians reworking US minority music and
gaining mass appeal, but much of that seemed to stem from other factors such
as the volume and musicianship. These acts could all be more accurately
described as rock (in the original, early 1970's sense) rather than blues, and
while they may have taken much material and inspiration from US music, in the
end they created something that owed (to greater or lesser extents) as much to
their own individual talents.
Gavin Bailey
Joseph E. McCall Jr.
ha...@RTD.COM (Omar Hall) writes:
> Furthermore, why is it that some Afro-Amer. artists have had to
> go to Britain to achieve success in the U.S.?
Your use of the word "some" in the sentence above dismisses any kind of
discussion. Because some black musicians have had to go to Britain to
achieve success does not mean we are not united. Did Boys II Men,
Whitney Houston, MJ, the Supremes, Temptations, etc. have to go to
Britain? Clearly the number of black musicians who have made it big in
the US is of an almost infinite magnitude compared to those who have
had to go outside the US for success.
Joseph
Omar Hall
: In article <3ggu04$3...@baygull.rtd.com>
: ha...@RTD.COM (Omar Hall) writes:
One, in a supposedly united kingdom, is too many. I think it is pathetic
that Jimi Hedrix, amongst others, had to go through the U.K for success.
Now he is considered, by many, to be the greatest guitar legend who ever
lived. Is that a joke or what! If he was so great, why did he have to
leave?
I also did ask, how many whites had to go to Britain to achive success in
the U.S. Funny how you seem to selectively reply to my questions.
Why don't you continue on and respond to all of them as they were posted?
Cheers!
Omar :-)
Frank D. Malczewski
How about Chrissie Hynde (of the Pretenders)?
--
--
Frank Malczewski (f...@wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com)
Omar Hall
: From article <3gpsqi$o...@baygull.rtd.com>, by ha...@RTD.COM (Omar Hall):
: > I'd like to make a few statements to the people who have responded
: > to my postings. First of all, my initial post was appx. 30
: > lines long, consisting of 8 questions. For those of you who
: > have been to school and those of you who haven't, it is customary
: > when test taking to skip over the questions you have no immediate
: > answers to and respond to the ones you have answers for. Then
: > return to the previously unanswered later. Not that we are in
: > school, or that this is a test, but following this logic would it
: > be safe to say the reason why 95% of the people posting in this
: > discussion skipped over my first five questions and proceeded to,
: > profusely, respond to the last 2(3 lines), indicate that they
: > could not answer the former.
: Dude, it is quite apparent that you feel no need to have these questions
: answered. The questions, in fact, read more like statements. You all
: ready have your mind made up and have been quite obnoxious and insulting
: at the same time.
Didn't mean to be rude, but it is a hot issue for me.
If you think I have my mind made up, convince me otherwise. I'm not
too old & set in my ways to change my way of thinking. As of yet
the posters in this discussion have not proven much to me, except that
Afro-Americans don't currently go to the U.K. to achieve success
in the U.S. Yah Hoo! :-( as if this shouldn't have been the case
since 1863.
Stick around, the best is yet to come! :-)
: BTW: Just because you ordered your so called questions a certain way has
: no effect and does not invalidate other people's points.
As I stated earlier, "I can't dictate how or in what order anyone
should respond to a post, but it is obvious this discussion has been
intentionally skewed to discuss some semi-trivial side dish
question, at the expense of the meat and potatoes in hopes of suiting
the purposees of a few respondents."
I would have thought the fact that Brits don't jam with white USA
would be a good basis for a more interesting discussion. Guess I was
wrong!
: For example I : could do the following:
: (1) Led Zeppelin had huge initial success in the U.S. Why weren't they as
: well received over in England at the same time?
: (2) Led Zeppelin had a tune called Immigrant Song. Did Led Zeppelin desire
: to be rid of the UK?
: (3) Why is Led Zeppelin so great?
: As you can see, my so called questions actually read as statements.
You're saying that these questions read as statements? I think
there could be a myriad of responses to them.
[Tony's gab, & instructions on how "I" should post to newsgroups, deleted]
Ciao!
Omar
David W Behrend
I think that race is not the primary issue here. I think it has to do
with styles and types of music. It does seem that Europe is more willing
to embrace unusual performers who are pushing the boundaries of music.
That's why Miles Davis and Jimi Hendrix found their first initial
popularity on the east side of the Atlantic. That would also explain why
the big guns in progressive rock tend to hail from the UK and Europe
(King Crimson, ELP, Genesis, Yes, Gentle Giant, etc.)
The examples of pop, rap and soul musicians who succeeded in the US show
that plenty of African-American artists succeed without going overseas.
An example like Chrissie Hynde shows that someone who pushed the
boundaries and was white had initial success in England rather than the US.
It is significant to point out that many white rock artists rip off the
heritage of the blues. Led Zeppelin is a prominent example of this. And
they came from England, not the US.
Two last things:
1. Give some more examples of African-American artists who had to go
overseas to gain acceptance.
2. Please don't refer to the United States as a kingdom--it ain't one.
Dave
==================
David W. Behrend
dw...@columbia.edu
"Play me my song . . . here it comes again."
Jonathan R. Strand
: In article <3gheeo$g...@baygull.rtd.com>, Omar Hall <ha...@RTD.COM> wrote:
: >Joseph E. McCall Jr. (Joseph.E....@dartmouth.edu) wrote:
: >: In article <3ggu04$3...@baygull.rtd.com>
: >: ha...@RTD.COM (Omar Hall) writes:
: >
: >I also did ask, how many whites had to go to Britain to achive success in
: >Why don't you continue on and respond to all of them as they were posted?
: >
: >
: >Cheers!
: >
: >Omar
In your examples I find one dyad conspicuously missing. What about EC
and Freddie King? In 1977 EC said of F. King "he taught me just about
everything I needed to know...when and when not to make a stand...when
and when not to show your hand...and most important of all...how to
make love to a guitar."
I would also suggest an additional nuance to your list. Perhaps the timing of
the colaboration is important. For instance, Bono and B.B. King were both
relatively successful before the colaboration. An argument could also
be made that F King and EC were both relatively "famous" by the
mid-1970s. In some cases, IMHO, the colaboration grew out of the music
industry's race based structure of the 1940's and 1950's and to a
lesser extent the 1960's. Hence Muddy Waters, et al., benefitted from
overseas exposure. In the 1980's and 1990's I am more inclined to
believe the colaboration is an outgrowth of the industries
discrimination towards blues in general. In short, blues does not make
the fat cats as much $$$ (or Pounds, Yen, Marks, etc.) as so-called
pop rock or even the recent country-turn-top-40 craze. Hence, B.B.
King benefits from colaboration with Bono; in terms of $$ and
exposure. If the industry in general discriminates today in regards to
race then how do we explain W. Houston, Hammer, MJ, et al.? Put
differently, the industry will produce what it can make a profit at.
What produces the most profit is generally what is most popular.
Hence, we find that music that appeals to a wide range of people to be
veryt successful in terms of $$$$. Blues appeals to a more narrow
range -- indeed some people consider blues esoteric -- and therefore
we find all but the most popular (Cray, BB, B. Guy) artists using
small presses.
In sum, just because something is popular does not mean it is good.
Hell, 40 million people bought pet rocks in the 1980s!
I certainly dream of the day that Son Seals, Claude Williams, Magic
Slim, Carey Bell, et al. are in the top 40. I am , howoever, skeptical
that colaboration with a British artist will make this happen.
Just my thoughts, no flames intended.
regards,
Jonathan
Lou Cortese
>One, in a supposedly united kingdom, is too many. I think it is
pathetic
>that Jimi Hedrix, amongst others, had to go through the U.K for
success.
>Now he is considered, by many, to be the greatest guitar legend who
ever
>lived. Is that a joke or what! If he was so great, why did he have to
>leave?
>
>I also did ask, how many whites had to go to Britain to achive success
in
>the U.S. Funny how you seem to selectively reply to my questions.
>Why don't you continue on and respond to all of them as they were
posted?
>
>
>Cheers!
>
>Omar :-)
>
type of society. I am a white musician and me and my band are
considering the fact that we might have to go to turn to Canada to get
any where. The reason being is that we are not the current flavour of
the month which happens to be punk(which happens to make my stomach
turn) To tell the truth we have no hope that our style of music will
ever be the "hot new thing out of Seattle/Athens/Boston et. al." The
bands we like our pretty much maligned except by a select few in this
country. In other countries however these acts are still big. And now
that Seattle grunge (which have been told by "experts" in field that
half the bands you thought were grunge were never grunge) is or was the
big thing Jimi Hendrix gets his due credit as the currator of it all.
Pearl Jam did a 90's impersonation of Hendrix and sold a million. Now
because of grunge white kids think that Hendrix is the "jam" whereas
before they turned him a deaf ear in favour of their C&C Music Factory
or some other souless electronic garbage like that.
As our insturment of influence we've turned to the prog-rock of
the 70's and the music of the 17,18 and 19 centuries. We are aware that
this pretty much kill our chances of getting anywhere in the American
music scene. We don't shout,screech,wail,whine,destroy our
insturments,roll around on broken glass,sing about masturbation
ect,ect,ect.
How many white acts had to go out of the country for success?
None that I can think of. White America pretty much sets the trends that
make it in all the magazines. These "artists" are there for the
trends(trends can be seen coming from a mile away) they pick up on it
and exploit it. Me? I care not for punk,grunge,death metal and I don't
foresee our style music becoming a big thing. So off to the great white
north(we are aware of a couple of labels up there). I hope we're the
biggest thing since sliced bread everywhere in the world except in
America. Success in America dooms you to put out (mabey) three albums
and then top fade into obscurity. Gin Blossoms?!?!?
Thanks for the forum
Hope for continued discusion, Omar.
E-mail me if you like.
Gail A Reichert
[... some back & forth snipped for brevity ...]
> >
> >I also did ask, how many whites had to go to Britain to achive success in
> >the U.S. Funny how you seem to selectively reply to my questions.
> >Why don't you continue on and respond to all of them as they were posted?
> >
Frank D. Malczewski (f...@WLV.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM) wrote:
> How about Chrissie Hynde (of the Pretenders)?
I think Tori Amos as well.
Respect & regards,
Gail Reichert reic...@rosgip.gsfc.nasa.gov
Bill Moore
Frank D. Malczewski <f...@WLV.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM> wrote:
>In article <3gheeo$g...@baygull.rtd.com>, Omar Hall <ha...@RTD.COM> wrote:
>>Joseph E. McCall Jr. (Joseph.E....@dartmouth.edu) wrote:
>>: In article <3ggu04$3...@baygull.rtd.com>
>>: ha...@RTD.COM (Omar Hall) writes:
>>
>>: > Furthermore, why is it that some Afro-Amer. artists have had to
>>: > go to Britain to achieve success in the U.S.?
>>
>>
>>: Your use of the word "some" in the sentence above dismisses any kind of
>>: discussion. Because some black musicians have had to go to Britain to
>>: achieve success does not mean we are not united. Did Boys II Men,
>>: Whitney Houston, MJ, the Supremes, Temptations, etc. have to go to
>>: Britain? Clearly the number of black musicians who have made it big in
>>: the US is of an almost infinite magnitude compared to those who have
>>: had to go outside the US for success.
>>
>>One, in a supposedly united kingdom, is too many. I think it is pathetic
>>that Jimi Hedrix, amongst others, had to go through the U.K for success.
>>Now he is considered, by many, to be the greatest guitar legend who ever
>>lived. Is that a joke or what! If he was so great, why did he have to
>>leave?
>
She went to England to *form* her band, so that's really a different thing.
But I disagree with the implication that Hendrix got big in Britain before
the US because of racism in the US. Some people get big in England before
they catch on in the US. Tom Petty and the Ramones both qualify to some
extent. Maybe Britain picks up on musical trends faster because
they're cooler than us. :-) I've seen no evidence that it's due to
racism.
Bill
Stefan Roberts
: In article <3gheeo$g...@baygull.rtd.com>, Omar Hall <ha...@RTD.COM> wrote:
: >Joseph E. McCall Jr. (Joseph.E....@dartmouth.edu) wrote:
: >Why don't you continue on and respond to all of them as they were posted?
: >Cheers!
: >Omar :-)
:
: How about Chrissie Hynde (of the Pretenders)?
This may be cheating (a little), but how about Stewart Copeland?
ttyl
stef
Carl Christensen
f...@WLV.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM says...
>
>In article <3gheeo$g...@baygull.rtd.com>, Omar Hall >>One,
pathetic
>>that Jimi Hedrix, amongst others, had to go through the U.K
for success.
>>Now he is considered, by many, to be the greatest guitar
legend who ever
>>lived. Is that a joke or what! If he was so great, why
did he have to
>>leave?
>>
>>I also did ask, how many whites had to go to Britain to
achive success in
>>the U.S. Funny how you seem to selectively reply to my
questions.
>>Why don't you continue on and respond to all of them as
they were posted?
Also the Stray Cats had to go to the UK to become
popular. This is the dumbest thread I've every seen --
there were big name black musicians before Hendrix.
Omar, you seem to take take the 'misses' but ignore
the 'hits.' I suppose you believe in flying saucers
and the tooth fairy as well.... :-)
--
Carl Christensen /~~\_/~\ ,,, For computer
music fun
Senior Systems Analyst | #=#==========# | in Windows
download
Fox Chase Cancer Center \__/~\_/ ``` alcomp11.zip
from your
Philadelphia, PA USA favorite FTP
site!
Christine Michelle Cooney
> : >Joseph E. McCall Jr. (Joseph.E....@dartmouth.edu) wrote:
> : >I also did ask, how many whites had to go to Britain to achive success in
> : >the U.S. Funny how you seem to selectively reply to my questions.
> : >Why don't you continue on and respond to all of them as they were posted?
> : >Cheers!
> : >Omar :-)
> :
> : How about Chrissie Hynde (of the Pretenders)?
> : Frank Malczewski (f...@wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com)
>
> This may be cheating (a little), but how about Stewart Copeland?
I don't think that's cheating at all. Stewart spent some time in
the U.S. but never aroused any enthusiam...in Britain however he was
noticed and labeled as "promising" even before he formed the Police.
Chris
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Chris Cooney * "If you should die before me ask if *
* * you could bring a friend" *
* (cm...@acpub.duke.edu) * - Stone Temple Pilots *
* * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Steve Manes
: One, in a supposedly united kingdom, is too many. I think it is pathetic
: Now he is considered, by many, to be the greatest guitar legend who ever
: lived. Is that a joke or what! If he was so great, why did he have to
: leave?
: I also did ask, how many whites had to go to Britain to achive success in
: the U.S. Funny how you seem to selectively reply to my questions.
: Why don't you continue on and respond to all of them as they were posted?
Chrissie Hynde couldn't get arrested in NYC so she went to England to put
her band together, The Pretenders. James Taylor is another. He and Danny
Kortchmar kicked around NYC with their band, Flying Machine, before getting
frustrated and trying their hand in England. Taylor's first album was on
the Beatles' (British) Apple Records with (British) producer, Peter Asher.
I like a good straw man as much as the next guy but why don't you do a
little research before making such emotional conclusions? You're also wrong
about Hendrix. He didn't *have* to go to England; he wanted to. After
leaving the army, Hendrix toured and recorded with Chuch Jackson, Little
Richard, Wilson Pickett, Ike & Tina, Joey Dee and the Isley Bros. The
Isleys brought Hendrix to NYC, where he also recorded with Curtis Knight and
Lonnie Youngblood. He formed his own band, Jimmy James and The Blue Flames,
which became an extremely popular Bleecker Street attraction. I never saw
the band but I've spoken to Bleecker Street musicians who knew Hendrix well
and said that he was comfortable where he was and didn't really care to be a
rock star. Janis Ian, who worked with Jimi, said that Hendrix was as happy
playing an acoustic guitar on a stoop on McDougal Street as anything else.
He didn't really have any career ambitions beyond that. That's why Hendrix
didn't make it here. He didn't try to.
It was at one of these clubs, Cafe Wha, that Chas Chandler, bass player for
The Animals, struck up a friendship with Jimi, eventually talking him into
coming to England to hang out for a couple of months. The rest is history.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Manes ma...@magpie.com
N'Yawk, N'Yawk =o&>o
Omar Hall
: > Omar Hall <ha...@RTD.COM> wrote:
: [... some back & forth snipped for brevity ...]
: > >
: > >I also did ask, how many whites had to go to Britain to achive success in
: > >the U.S. Funny how you seem to selectively reply to my questions.
: > >Why don't you continue on and respond to all of them as they were posted?
: > >
: Frank D. Malczewski (f...@WLV.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM) wrote:
: > How about Chrissie Hynde (of the Pretenders)?
: I think Tori Amos as well.
Who?
Omar Hall
: OK, Omar, I finally got tired of the bullshit, so here's what
: you asked for, in order even!
I can tell by your choice of words, you're well developed in character.
: 1. Many bands have American and British members. Maybe since
: they play together and tour together all the time, it is no
: big deal for them to do special projects just to say they
: worked together.
Care to name the British & white American musicians you claim play
together & tour together all the time? I hope they are as established &
internationally renown as many of the musicians I listed earlier.
Don't bother posting some small time one hit wonders or no-name sideline
musician w/little or no credibility!
It seems that since white American musicians are more influenced
by the British than vice versa, the American musicians would
collaborate with them at the drop of a hat!
: Did it also occur to you, that since you seem
: to see a difference in the music of British, black Americans and
: white Americans, that the 1st two have voices that complement,
: or even contrast each other well and therefore choose to work
: together?
Are you saying that the second two(American White/Afro-American
voices) don't complement & contrast well with each other? Using
your line of reasoning, then why do white American Musicians &
vocalists collaborate more often with each other than they do
with the British ones, if likes wouldn't complement & contrast
each other very well? Why do the British musicians & vocalists
collaborate more often w/each other than they do with the white
American ones, if likes wouldn't complement & contrast each other
well?
: 2. Probably not.
Probably so. What kind of answer is that?
It would seem pretty obvious to me that collaborative efforts
between two similar or dissimilar types of musicians would indicate
either a great appreciation for each others work or some other
admirable characteristic each can identify with, like obvious influences.
: The reason British music is bought in America is that we must
: like what they do.
Obviously!
: And, gee, imagine, it may be that Americans
: like the British artists that we do not because of what they
: learned from African-Americans, but for what the British
: artists themselves bring to the music.
If the British, as you say, have added a unique element to Afro-
American music(50's, 60's & 70's), then why must white Americans
seek unique musical styles from the British, when they could have
similarly created these unique styles & stars of the same
magnitude in this country?
This is probably why we are buying so many cars from Japan!
I know when they get paid, they gone!
"I don't care too much for money, 'cause money can't buy me
love."
Yeah, but I'd sure have a good time trying!
: 3. You are confusing "imitation" and "inspiration."
Is this suppose to serve as some type of response to my
question? Nevertheless, I would think it would be impossible to
be inspired by an artist without having imitated them at one
point in time, to some degree.
: Just because an artist is inspired by another, or even a group or
: style, does not mean that they want to "imitate" them.
You mean like 99% of the American Rock bands(figuratively
speaking) imitating Led Zeppelin, musically & otherwise? In
addition, wasn't it the, uh, British(Beatles) who originally
incorporated the long hair image into the music business? Now
look who got stuck holding the bag, at least for quite some time.
Appears the majority of British musicians have now opted for the
clean shaven look. I hear you increase your chances of appearing
before the Queen that way.
Which prompts me to ask, What American pop or rock musicians have
performed before or met British royalty? I know J5, & The Supremes
have met Queen Elizabeth. Tina Turner performed at the Princes
All Star Trust before Prince Charles & Lady Diana. Any others you can
add to this list? I suspect Barbra Streisand.
: God forbid, artists may actually want to make music that means
: something to them and works for them. Other influences will
: obviously affect this, but that doesn't mean that one or a
: few influences will dominate the artist.
This may hold true, however you would think one would be able to
obtain the same musical results as the British(Stones, Beatles,
Zep., etc.) if they were influenced by the same types or
artists(blues & otherwise) as the British(Stones, Beatles, Zep.).
Unless you believe the British are just better, which they have
proven in record sales. Elvis is one star, who was immensely
influence by Afro-American music, thus achieving significant
success. Too bad he died. However, he was influenced by Afro-
American music at a time when it was not acceptable to listen or
perform it. On the other hand, the British seemed to have had no
problem with the idea. This is a shame, when the Afro-Americans
were to be considered full citizens of this nation, yet not fully
accepted. If I follow the reasoning of some of the posters I
would believe, that was so long ago, everything is all better
now. NOT!
American rockers are simply a watered down version of the British
ones & record sales have historically reflected that.
I can remember hearing of stories when American white kids in the 50's
would be reprimanded for listening to any form of Afro-American
music. Meanwhile, it appears the British artists learned
grew(financially & otherwise) & benefitted from the music.
Ignorance & prejudice just doesn't pay.
Looks like druggy Mick, economics major, Jagger and
Paul, accountant father, McCartney can almost afford to buy the U.S.A. by
now!
: 4. Trends come and go. At times, blues has been very popular
: here. Michael Bolton, Blues Brothers, and Huey Lewis were
: all popular in the 80's with blues. Things go in waves here
: and it is not usually a linear progression. Some styles are
: popular for awhile, and then resurface later.
You are comparing blues influenced artists of the 80's to
Blues influenced British artists of the 60's & 70's. I asked why
is America so late.
I hope the resurfacing trend in the next 5 - 10 years isn't the
Motown sound, just around the time when most Motowners will have
one foot in the grave.
Trends are created. There is no real demand for one of a particular type
vs. another. As was stated earlier, this is the nation where a "Pet
Rock" was sold in a box!
:-)
Omar
Mark Henteleff
>
>If the British, as you say, have added a unique element to Afro-
>American music(50's, 60's & 70's), then why must white Americans
>seek unique musical styles from the British, when they could have
>
>speaking) imitating Led Zeppelin, musically & otherwise? In
>addition, wasn't it the, uh, British(Beatles) who originally
>incorporated the long hair image into the music business? Now
>look who got stuck holding the bag, at least for quite some time.
>Appears the majority of British musicians have now opted for the
>clean shaven look. I hear you increase your chances of appearing
>before the Queen that way.
>Blues influenced British artists of the 60's & 70's. I asked why
>is America so late.
>I hope the resurfacing trend in the next 5 - 10 years isn't the
>Motown sound, just around the time when most Motowners will have
>one foot in the grave.
>Trends are created. There is no real demand for one of a particular type
>vs. another. As was stated earlier, this is the nation where a "Pet
>Rock" was sold in a box!
>
>:-)
>
>Omar
>
me want to puke. British blues rock of the 60s and 70s for the
most part is a mixture of outright ripoffs, pale xeroxes, and
stolen American blues riffs made pretty and cranked loud. Nothing
original, nothing inspirational, and no authenticity in any sense.
I was introduced to the blues via John Mayall, Clapton, Page,
and the rest of those ripoff megalomaniacs trying to pass
themselves off as *artists*. At the time, i thought i was listening
to truly inspired and original stuff. Little did i know that
what i was being subjected to was the authentic shit run through
the deflavorizing machine. What the british have done to the blues
is akin to taking the Mona Lisa and giving her breast implants
and a new fresh, big smile and saying......*Look, see how much
better it is now!*. British interpretations of the blues (for
the most part, but not all) are big and impressive like the moon
.....and dead and distant like the moon too. More to the point,
Mayall is a DIRECT ripoff of Otis Rush. He didn't take Rush's
stuff and do more with it...he ripped him off outright..and made
a very good living at it as well, while Otis struggles to this
day. Clapton, in his latest outing, has taken some classic
blues and run them through the bland factory. Yeah, yeah...some
hot licks there and a very nice production, but nevertheless...
Mona Lisa with breast implants.....totally gratuitous, besides
the point, and ruining great pieces of art. Nothing Led Zepplin
did in terms of interprtations of American blues comes within
a light year of the originals. Howlin' Wolf is rolling in
his grave.
Hey Omar, learn something about blues history and african
american origins before going into tirades about the British
*embracing* african american artists before the US did.
There *embracing* was nothing more than a post colonial
obsession with the exotic...one based on power, money,
control, and the marketing of a truly pre-existing art form
into a palatable drone of a hum drum made listenable to
white audiences because it was being played to them by
white people. The British loved Hendrix because he was
an exotic creature. His appeal to *the scene* there was
like that of the bearded lady in the carnival. His appeal
to people back where he came from, at least those who
appreciated the blues and felt the roots pouring through
the bullshit, was the music. The British have and continue to
exploit, not exhalt, black artists. From what Douglas did
to Hendrix to what Island records did to Marley to what
Gabriel does to N'dour...it's all exploitation in the
guise of homage. And the music, for all intentions good or
bad has suffered as a result.
Mark H.
Bill Moore
>Why is it the Afro-Americans who leave return to become international
>legends, not one night wonders or flashs in the pan as the ones you and
>others have listed? Could this be a sign of some form of oppression?
>Quality is quality, as is a diamond a diamond, no matter how you cut it
>or where it exists!
Uh, Tommy Petty and the Ramones aren't "flashes in the pan" or
"one hit wonders". Neither is Tori Amos, whom you've never heard of,
nor Chrissie Hynde. These are big-time rock personalities. What are
you talking about? You're making little sense.
Look, you're either trolling or you don't know
much about rock and roll history. And in either case,
there's no point in continuing this. Over and out.
Bill
Bill Moore
people are saying there is no racism in the US. I don't believe anyone
said anything of the sort; I certainly didn't. The point which is being
argued is whether people like Jimi Hendrix had to go to England to make it
because of racism in the US. That's not true. It was true once, for sure,
but it's not anymore. And if you want to argue that I'm wrong, fine.
But the arguments which have been presented are just plain silly and
full of wrong facts and illogic. There's no point is continuing, but I
wanted to address Omar's incorrect extrapolation of the scope of this thread.
No one has said there is no racism in the US. There is. Matter of fact
there is in England as well. Over and out.
Bill
Jonathan Egre
relevant to all of them.
In article <3gk493$p...@baygull.rtd.com>, Omar Hall <ha...@RTD.COM> wrote:
>
> Tina Turner, [etc]
>... had to be picked up by the British in order to achieve
> the success they currently have obtained.
Tina Turner had already had a successful career with Ike Turner which
didn't need to be kick-started in Europe. The fact that Tina Turner
went on to have an even more successful solo career after several
years' break is really exceptional, whether she had to go to Europe
or not.
If you want to count examples, Jerry Donahue is a white American
that had to come to Britain. And Albert Lee is a white British artist
who had to go to America to be discovered, and Yngwie Malmsteen had
to go to America to be discovered, and Karl Marx had to come to Britain,
and Charlie Chaplin had to go to America. Sometimes a person's skills
and talents just aren't recognized in his/her home country, it's as
simple as that.
>I hate to see the system put some ex-con drug dealer, murderer, rapist,
>high school drop out non-talented Afro-American
>rap star on top of the music scene as a representative of Afro-American
>musicians. I'm not buying it!
You might not be buying it, but millions of black Americans are.
Literally. The whole rap style was initially sold to black consumers.
So much for white American consumers always dictating what the American
music industry produces.
--
Jonathan Egre' at Jobstream Group plc, Cambridge, UK
I am *not* representing Jobstream Group plc with this message or posting
Patrick Murphy
: She went to England to *form* her band, so that's really a different thing.
: But I disagree with the implication that Hendrix got big in Britain before
: the US because of racism in the US. Some people get big in England before
: they catch on in the US. Tom Petty and the Ramones both qualify to some
: extent. Maybe Britain picks up on musical trends faster because
: they're cooler than us. :-) I've seen no evidence that it's due to
: racism.
My understanding of the Jimi Hendrix Experience is this:
Jimi was jammin' with a whole slew o' folks in
Greenwich Village
Chas Chandler (of the Animals) thought to himself
'here's one groovy cat'
Chas and Jimi go to England
Jimi hooks up with a bass player & a drummer (both
Brits, by the way) and the Experience is
born!
So, it looks like Chrissie Hynde & Jimi do have something in
common.
Cheers!
patrick
Jonathan Egre
Mark Henteleff <ma...@ahi.pbrc.hawaii.edu> wrote:
>>
>This whole diatribe is such an outlandish load of crap it makes
>me want to puke. British blues rock of the 60s and 70s for the
>most part is a mixture of outright ripoffs, pale xeroxes, and
>stolen American blues riffs made pretty and cranked loud. Nothing
>original, nothing inspirational, and no authenticity in any sense.
>I was introduced to the blues via John Mayall, Clapton, Page,
>and the rest of those ripoff megalomaniacs trying to pass
>themselves off as *artists*.
Obviously you haven't read Omar Hall's diatribes in
alt.music.led-zeppelin, where he has already accused British blues
artists of ripping off black American blues artists (although I don't
recall him claiming that the result was inferior music).
Mayall, Page and *especially* Eric Clapton have always acknowledged
their black American influences. No British musician of any skin colour
has ever claimed that the blues was invented in Britain. The artistry
that they have claimed is not in inventing a style, but in interpreting
that style and in writing songs. If you think that their interpretation
of the blues was inferior that's fine, but they never claimed it was
anything other than their interpretation of the blues.
> British interpretations of the blues (for
>the most part, but not all) are big and impressive like the moon
>.....and dead and distant like the moon too.
So, were British blues musicians producing exact rip-offs or were they
performing the blues with their own British style?
I think it's worth pointing out that British blues musicians of the
60's did not really have the opportunity of seeing black American blues
live, and neither did their British audiences. If you wanted to see
a live blues band in 60's Britain then they *had* to be white British
imitators because the originals were unavailable.
I really can't see why it is wrong for British record companies to bring
British blues musicians into British recording studios and sell the
results to the British record-buying public (assuming that any songs
written by black American bluesmen were correctly attributed and paid
for - which was basically true, except for Led Zeppelin). If anybody is
to blame for the fact that white Americans first heard the blues via
Britain, then it is the American record companies, American radio
stations, and the white American record-buying public.
>There *embracing* [i.e. the British embracing the blues]
> was nothing more than a post colonial
>obsession with the exotic...one based on power, money,
>control, and the marketing of a truly pre-existing art form
>into a palatable drone of a hum drum made listenable to
>white audiences because it was being played to them by
>white people.
No, it was made listenable to British audiences for the simple
logistical fact that the white British blues musicians were in
Britain and the black American blues musicians were not.
And what the British public saw live, they bought as records.
> The British loved Hendrix because he was
>an exotic creature. His appeal to *the scene* there was
>like that of the bearded lady in the carnival. His appeal
>to people back where he came from, at least those who
>appreciated the blues and felt the roots pouring through
>the bullshit, was the music.
Hendrix *acted* like an exotic creature. He played the guitar with
his teeth, he played the guitar behind his neck, he set fire to
his guitar. He learned all that in America, before he came to
England. And when he returned to America, his American audience
expected him to act like the wild man of rock & roll. The people
who appreciated Hendrix's roots were in the minority everywhere
he went.
>The British have and continue to
>exploit, not exhalt, black artists.
British record companies or the British record-buying public?
And, if a record is recorded, distributed and advertised, how
do you draw the dividing line between exploitation and exhaltation?
The major record companies all over the world maximize their profits
by exploiting artists of all skin colours. And the music suffers,
regardless of whether it's black musicians playing blues, or
white musicians playing country or progressive rock, or musicians
playing the "wrong" music for their skin colour.
If you mean that the British public "exploit, not exhalt, black
artists" then I'd like to know how you came to this opinion,
and what it would take for you to say that they were exhalting
black artists.
Omar Hall
: In article <D378C...@wlbr.iipo.gtegsc.com>,
: Bill
Why is it the Afro-Americans who leave return to become international
Omar Hall
Is this another legendary example? What has he done lately? I wonder if
the music industry would have been drasticly changed had he not become
famous?
Omar Hall
: In article <D378C...@wlbr.iipo.gtegsc.com>,: >>
: >>I also did ask, how many whites had to go to Britain to
: achive success in
: >>the U.S. Funny how you seem to selectively reply to my
: questions.
: >>Why don't you continue on and respond to all of them as
: they were posted?
: >How about Chrissie Hynde (of the Pretenders)?
: Also the Stray Cats had to go to the UK to become
: popular.
Did they make it?
: This is the dumbest thread I've every seen --
Not as dumb as comparing some flash in the pan U.S. artist, who came back
to only semi-succeed, to U.S. export/import Legends like Jimi, Dione,
Miles(as was mentioned), etc.
If the stray scats were so good and just not recognized when they left,
why are they all washed up little after thier return?
: there were big name black musicians before Hendrix.
I don't have all the answers, but based on the pattern of things I
believe you!
: I suppose you believe in flying saucers
: and the tooth fairy as well.... :-)
Sure, ain't you ever seen a Afro-American on a flying saucer
before? or is that reserved for only uh ... oh nothing.
:-)
Omar
Craig E. Smith
Omar,
I was in the middle of writing back about your response to my
post when I decided to read the other messages first. While
doing so I realized that you are just a bigot and a racist.
You taunt and make fun of what you are either to ignorant to
understand or too stupid to learn about. This is the sign of
a bigot no matter what your race, color, creed, or nationality.
You shot-down someone who mentioned the Pretenders as a flash in
the pan. That group has had hit records stretching for decades.
You also question the importance of Stewart Copeland. If you
hadn't noticed, the Police are one of the largest bands to
ever hit the music seen. Just because they haven't done
anything lately, does not change their importance. The Police
actually hold the record for the most requested song in the
history of radio. ("Every Breath You Take") Stewart Copeland,
after the end of the Police, went on to delve into other musical
areas. He WROTE and opera. No, not a rock opera. It was
called "Holy Blood and Crescent Moon." Personally, I do not
enjoy opera as a style, but there was no denying, when I saw
its premier that it was a wonderfully crafted piece of work.
Yes, this country has not always had a great record of racial
harmony. But neither has every other country. For example,
in England, the country you mention so often, racial inequality
still exists. A member of my hometown's local Rotary
International Club is a black ladies golf pro. While on tour in
England, she tried to attend a Rotary meeting. (Members are
invited and required to attend meetings of other clubs when
they are away from their home club to keep up their required
attendance.) She was refused admittance to the meeting for two
reasons. She was black, and she was a woman. They finally
consented to give her a letter of attendance, but would not let
her through the doors. And this was only last year, not two
or three decades ago like many of your examples. I must also
say that the above should not be a reflection on England as a
whole. I have never been there and refuse to base my opinion
about an entire group of people on one incident. Especially
after all of the wonderful people from England I have met right
here on the net that prove what a great nation it is.
For the examples you asked, Def Leppard and Tesla toured together,
and most of Def Leppard's other touring partners were also
American. Same for Iron Maiden. Also, I think Judas Priest is
British, and they toured with Alice Cooper and otherBritish, mericans.
I guess that the problem is, when I look for a concert to attend,
or a CD to buy, I don't necessarily know the race or nationality
of the band or artist. And ya know, I don't care. In true
equality it should matter. It sure as hell shouldn't change my
opinion.
- Craig
Teddie James-CSIC_Publications
>Lou Cortese (Vinc...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>
>4) Why is white America just beginning to, massively, pick up on the
> blues, in the 90's? This musical form originated in this country
> some 50 years ago and the British have re-done it way back when &
> made lots of cold cash.
This isn't really an answer. It's more fuel to the fire. It seems that
this is the case in several instances for British music. They take a good,
raw, original American musical style and copy it to make it palatable to
the masses. The Beatles started out playing Carl Perkins, etc., tunes.
Their mass appeal brought them unlimited fame and money. The Yardbirds,
Led Zeppelin, Cream, Eric Clapton, you name it, did the same thing.
Steve Manes
: But briefly, in response to some of the
: previous postings regarding Ike & Tina Turner and their assumed
: earlier success in the U.S. If one gold album, according to
: Billboard Book of Gold & Platinum Records, is seen to be a sign
: of success, I might as well discontinue this discussion now.
A gold record certainly WAS a sign of success in the late 60s. Take a look
at your big book and see how many artists had been awarded platinum records
before 1970.
Ike and Tina's success was not in the studio but live, where they were one
of the hardest-working and most popular road shows in r&r history. Only
Wayne Newton was more familiar to Vegas audiences and only Sammy Davis did
more television appearances. I suppose one of the reasons they weren't more
active chart performers was because Ike had fucked with just about everybody
there was to piss off in the record business.
Anthony Mueller
> I'd like to make a few statements to the people who have responded
> to my postings. First of all, my initial post was appx. 30
> lines long, consisting of 8 questions. For those of you who
> have been to school and those of you who haven't, it is customary
> when test taking to skip over the questions you have no immediate
> answers to and respond to the ones you have answers for. Then
> return to the previously unanswered later. Not that we are in
> school, or that this is a test, but following this logic would it
> be safe to say the reason why 95% of the people posting in this
> discussion skipped over my first five questions and proceeded to,
> profusely, respond to the last 2(3 lines), indicate that they
> could not answer the former.
Dude, it is quite apparent that you feel no need to have these questions
answered. The questions, in fact, read more like statements. You all
ready have your mind made up and have been quite obnoxious and insulting
at the same time. If you truely want answers, than please be polite enough
to respect other peoples opinions. I basically have no opinion on the
subject and really could give a sh*t about the topic either. There could
be a number of possible factors that are valid including your own.
BTW: Just because you ordered your so called questions a certain way has
no effect and does not invalidate other people's points. For example I
could do the following:
(1) Led Zeppelin had huge initial success in the U.S. Why weren't they as
well received over in England at the same time?
(2) Led Zeppelin had a tune called Immigrant Song. Did Led Zeppelin desire
to be rid of the UK?
(3) Why is Led Zeppelin so great?
As you can see, my so called questions actually read as statements.
Just because someone tends to disagree with the premise of question number
3 doesn't meant that you're assertions are correct. I think that your whole
logic is assinine. If you are trying to make a statement, then go ahead and
do so, but try not to disquise your point under a false pretense of just
asking questions.
Have a nice day,
Tony
--
********************************************************************************
*Tony Mueller | All the spelling errors in the above are property of: *
*to...@csd4.csd.uwm.edu| Myself (Tony Mueller). All rights reserved. *
********************************************************************************
mpag...@aries.dpi.tas.gov.au
>>I hope the current rap & rock musical mess in the U.S.A. isn't an example of
>>that, otherwise we are truly doomed!
>I gather from this, and other statements, that you rather dislike the
>identification of rap with African-American culture. How patronizing of
>you. Perhaps you'd like to debate it directly with the people in question--
>why not take this over to a rap newsgroup and tell them that you think their
>role models are destructive (as you said in another message).
>
I get quite a lot of shit from friends about listening to rap, and for
sticking up for what I think is a great form of expression through music.
I listen to music for what it does to me, not for who wrote it, or who
performed it or any external consequences. Black? White? Who cares. Good? Bad?
Now you're talking.
Marc Reid (EC)
Alright, I think we get your point.
Damn.....
Marc
Joseph E. McCall Jr.
It is obvious you are trying to make this a racist issue, when it is
not. Look at the facts.
Joseph
Joseph E. McCall Jr.
ha...@RTD.COM (Omar Hall) writes:
> Why is it the Afro-Americans who leave return to become international
> legends, not one night wonders or flashs in the pan as the ones you and
> others have listed? Could this be a sign of some form of oppression?
> Quality is quality, as is a diamond a diamond, no matter how you cut it
> or where it exists!
What the hell is your problem? Grow up.
Joseph McCall
Joseph E. McCall Jr.
bil...@nyx.cs.du.edu (Bill Moore) writes:
> Look, you're either trolling or you don't know
> much about rock and roll history. And in either case,
> there's no point in continuing this. Over and out.
>
> Bill
I agree. He is trying to make this a racist issue. I think he is in a
band, they sound like shit, no one will sign them on, and so he is
pissed and shouts "racism" for his lack of musical skill.
Joseph
Henning Schmiedehausen
>Care to name the British & white American musicians you claim play
>together & tour together all the time? I hope they are as established &
Genesis. ELO. occasionally Jethro Tull.
--
Henning Schmiedehausen SUN - Power that SPARCles.
bar...@forge.franken.de http://www.franken.de:/users/forge/henning
"Snakes! Why does it always have to be snakes?" -- Indy
Omar Hall
: In article <3gn1m6$b...@baygull.rtd.com>, Omar Hall <ha...@RTD.COM> wrote:
: >Why is it the Afro-Americans who leave return to become international
: >legends, not one night wonders or flashs in the pan as the ones you and
: >others have listed? Could this be a sign of some form of oppression?
: >Quality is quality, as is a diamond a diamond, no matter how you cut it
: >or where it exists!
: Uh, Tommy Petty and the Ramones aren't "flashes in the pan" or
: "one hit wonders". Neither is Tori Amos, whom you've never heard of,
: nor Chrissie Hynde. These are big-time rock personalities. What are
: you talking about? You're making little sense.
I believe the only musician you mention who isn't a flash in the pan is Tom
Petty. According to The Billboard Book of Gold & Platinum Records, Tori
Amos had no certified gold or platinum albums as of 1990. Chrissie Hynde,
and The Ramones ditto. The Pretenders have 2 certified gold, 1 certified
platinum, and 1 certified platinum straggler(rel. 1980 Cert. 1982) album
as of 1990.
If this is your idea of "BIG-TIME ROCK PERSONALITIES", then I think your
signing off over & out is by no means too soon!
:-)
Omar
: Look, you're either trolling or you don't know
Martin Green
> Lou Cortese (Vinc...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>
> : type of society. I am a white musician and me and my band are
> : considering the fact that we might have to go to turn to Canada to get
> : any where. The reason being is that we are not the current flavour of
>
> [deletions]
>
> Yeah nice, but I wish you would respond to the jist of my initial post. If
> you are wondering what that was, the primary questions are as follows,
> with a few extras:
>
> 1) Why is it that so many British musicians will collaborate with
> Afro-American musicians, but not with white American artists?
>
Well you're right to a degree though only for mainstream artists;
Though a few biggies spring to mind;
Tyler & Perry with Plant & Page
Dylan with Van Morrison
Frank Zappa with The Chieftans
Emmy Lou Harris with The Chieftans
Joe Ely with Wilko Johnson
Derek & the Dominoes
Joe Satriani with Mick Jagger
Georgia Satellites & Ian McClagan
Bryan Adams with Sting & Rod Stewart
Jimmie Vaughan with Clapton
Jeff Beck recorded an album of Gene Vincent & The Bluecaps songs
Chet Atkins with Mark Knopfler
The fact is British musicians work regularly with both white & black artists.
> 2) Could the fact that Afro-American musicians are their major influence
> be the reason why?
The Stones, Beatles, Deep Purple, Fleetwood Mac, Led Zeppelin quote Presley,
Jerry Lee Lewis, Link Wray, Gene Vincent, Neil Young as very big influences on
their art!
> If so, why is it that so many white American musicians are so heavily
> influenced by British artists, and white American consumers can
> account for the majority of British artists record sells?
>
You logic is flawed!
North America is the world's biggest market in the Western World, and since
the majority of the artists in the western world that sell records are either
from the U.S. or Britain it's pretty damned obvious where their sales are going
to occur in the main.
> 3) In addition, how could any white American musicians expect to be as big
> as the Beatles or Stones when they are imitating a white
> man who is trying to sound like an Afro-American man?
It worked for Metallica!
> Why not openly utilize the musical resources the British utilized?
I'll throw some names at you again;
Dr. John, John Cleary, John Hammond (lots of John's here), James Harman,
Kim Wilson, Lonnie Mack. Is this what you mean.
> And I'm not talking about rap!
>
Oh! We're getting to the real problem here, you are a musical bigot, refusing
to accept new ideas simply because they don't fit into your scheme of things.
> 4) Why is white America just beginning to, massively, pick up on the
> blues, in the 90's? This musical form originated in this country
> some 50 years ago and the British have re-done it way back when &
> made lots of cold cash.
>
What percentage of blues and jazz albums have reached the top ten of the
Billboard charts in the last 5 years ? Pretty small I would think !
Interest in the blues increased steadily over the last 10 years *globally*
(i.e. not just North America).
So by your reckoning the blues was born during the Second World War.
Wrong buddy, the blues goes back much, much further than 50 years ago.
Recorded blues to my knowledge goes back aound 70 odd years.
Tribal music of West African coasts bears a very striking resemblance to
traditional jazz & blues (so kicking your idea in the butt, of the blues
originating in "America").
Blues of the late 20's & 30's was a mixture of Native American, French,
English & Celtic styles.
Now here is where the music changes noticeably, Afro-Americans spent a lot of
time amongst the Irish, Native Amaricans & to a lesser degree the French.
Since these people all had one thing in common they were treated as outcasts.
So quite amazingly when they played music they tended to play together,
so the various styles mixed 20th Century blues, Jazz, Zydeco were byproducts
of these jams (since country music was essentially Irish, this would explain
the very common occurrence of blatantly obvious country licks on blues records
- this is still apparrent on records during the 50's on such labels as Sun,
Arhoolie and Excello). This celtic thing pops up again in Black-Gospel music.
Speaking generally. Irish music the rhythm is in the melody so it can be sung
unaccompanied (yo! Accappella gospel) whilst African music is sung accompanied
(now i know you're going to say what about John Lee Hooker, I here you say,
well plenty of solo blues performers used a heavy percussive style style whilst
playing stomping their heel on a wooden board in time to the music and slapping
the body of the guitar with hand to give a heavy bass sound).
The banjo has it's origins in Africa.
The slide guitar's distant relative is still found in Africa, a single string
atached to a pole and wooden or metal rod moved up and down the to alter the
sound of the note produced, this type of instrument is found in the U.S. during
the late nineteenth century and probably earlieras well. It is also the likely
inspiration of the early lapsteel (it's the country connection again) and there
is also the Hawaian slide guitar as well.
In fact the British made a pittance compared to the money made by the white
American artists (if that is the word), if it wasn't for these "British rip-off
merchants" the blues as a recorded musical form would have all but died out
during the mid 70's (how many of the great successful classic blues labels
are still in existence in their original incarnations, only one springs to my
mind), the Stones introduced the U.S. public to Muddy Waters, Howling Wolf,
Jimmy Reed. The difference was the British artists of the '60's unlike the white
American artists of the fifties did not dilute the music, the biggest crime of
all. As far as the Whites recording duplicates of blues records and claiming
copyright of them is nothing unusual, Robert Johnson, Son House, John Lee
Hooker, Amos Milburn, Leadbelly, Jack Dupree, Otis Redding, Chuck Berry all
did the same thing.
Who wrote Catfish, Goin' Down Slow, Ain't Going Down Dirt Road No More..,
One Bourbon........., half of Robert Johnson's output, Out On The Western
Plain.
I would hazard a guess that your answers are not those of the original source.
To sum up I cannot think of a single musical style that is uninfluenced by
other musical styles. I get the impression your idea of blues is very suburban,
because your whole slant is similar to that of the white middle classes during
the late 40's.
...and I thought I was ignorant?
> :-)
>
> Omar
It is commonly known that people ignore information which contradicts their own
prejudices, from your posting this certainly applies.
I suggest you delve deeper into the blues, check out it's history and boy do
some research.
"The Road Goes On Forever,
And The Party Never Ends"
Mart.
Aric Rubin
-> ole U. S. of A.! All these people can't be wrong! Living Colour
-> is the founder of the coalition of thousands of members. You
-> should listen to some of Living Colours experiences for starters.
This is not quite accurate. The coalition was founded by Nelson George and
Vernon Reid. Living Colours (sic) (The band is actually called Living
Colour) is an outgrowth of the coalition, not the other way around.
->
-> I was in a very heavily blues influenced white rock group recently & they
-> stated, "I thought about it & realized there hasn't been any black
-> guitarists or vocalists fronting any rock & roll bands historically,
-> except Jimi. That's bad since it came from blacks".
Duh-oh! Let's see, we've got Booker T. and the MGs, (though Booker T.
plays organ) we've got Otis Redding (doing covers of stones tunes, btw)
we've got Arthur Lee (and love), we've got Robert Cray, we've got Sly and
the Family Stone,
-> If you're not going to share the benefits of what both races in this nation
-> have made contributions to create, than you can expect to get what
-> you're getting here and elswhere! Trouble & Flames! Yes I'm pissed, DAMN
-> PISSED!
Your earlier posts indicated little but ignorance about the history of the
music. Howlin' Wolf developed his trademark howl as an attempt to imitate
Jimmie Rodgers, an early country music artist. Chuck Berry, in his
autobiography, discusses how he spent hours listening to Country Western
music along side rnb and blues and how that influenced his song writing.
The fact is that rock and roll grows out of black and white, rural and
urban, raw and sophisticated roots.
aric
->
-> "You've killed all our leaders. I don't even have to do nothing to you,
-> you'll cause your own country to fall."
->
-> --Stevie Wonder
->
-> Omar
Omar Hall
: One more point. Omar has extrapolated these arguments to conclude that
: Bill
Am I wrong to have come to this conclusion? When all too often,
the majority of white Americans will try to cover up racial discrimination,
under any circumstances. It still occurs today. How many
recent Afro-American Rock & Rollers have you heard of. They are out
there, & they even have a coalition where they pool their resources to
fight what they view as racial discrimination in Rock & Roll, in the Good
ole U. S. of A.! All these people can't be wrong! Living Colour
is the founder of the coalition of thousands of members. You
should listen to some of Living Colours experiences for starters.
I was in a very heavily blues influenced white rock group recently & they
stated, "I thought about it & realized there hasn't been any black
guitarists or vocalists fronting any rock & roll bands historically,
except Jimi. That's bad since it came from blacks".
If you're not going to share the benefits of what both races in this nation
have made contributions to create, than you can expect to get what
you're getting here and elswhere! Trouble & Flames! Yes I'm pissed, DAMN
PISSED!
"You've killed all our leaders. I don't even have to do nothing to you,
you'll cause your own country to fall."
--Stevie Wonder
Omar
R. Dijkhuis
Schmiedehausen) writes:
>ha...@RTD.COM (Omar Hall) writes:
>>Care to name the British & white American musicians you claim play
>>together & tour together all the time? I hope they are as established &
>Genesis. ELO. occasionally Jethro Tull.
Fleetwood Mac. (Gosh, I just noticed the humongous list of subject headers.
Was that really necessary?)
Reinder
"Volgens mijn man kan 1 nooit 2 zijn."
"Maar mevrouw Pythagoras! Twijfelt uw man aan het orakel van Delphi?"
David Marks
Claude Panneton <cpan...@hpb.hwc.ca> wrote:
>.... I pitty your ignorence...
? ;-)
________________________________________________________________________
David M. Marks, Dept. of Physics and Astronomy, Northwestern University,
2145 Sheridan Rd., Evanston, IL 60208. Tel: 708/491-8615; Fax: 407/998-
2011; Voicemail: 407/368-7623. d-m...@nwu.edu, dma...@gate.net.
Claude Panneton
: Omar Hall (ha...@RTD.COM) wrote:
<snip>
: I see nothing wrong with racism. If the fact that I don't really care
: where the original music came from constitutes racism, so be it.
: Actually, I'm pretty racist, so it's not a big deal. I am also a
: misanthrope and I happen to hate humanity, but I consider the whole
: concept of race to be lame, and any race/culture have problems. As
: Plato said, culture is like a cave.
: So what's your point?
: --Ram
: Check out the TWISTED HELICES band page at http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ram/th
: r...@elan1.carb.nist.gov The difference between a 10 page and a
: 12 page paper is the type size.
Hmmm. Taking into cosideration your hatred for humanity...and presuming
that you are (though loosely, it seems) affiliated with such race... Have
you considered suicide?
I don't know if you were serious about "seeing nothing wrong with
racism"; but if you were.... I pitty your ignorence... your music must
surely suffer from you fear of learning, and lack of diversity in
experience...
Claude.
/_____\ /_____\
@ @
-- | --
| ...Both sides...
____|
|---------------|
-------
Claude Panneton
Cpan...@hpb.hwc.ca
Hug a musician, we never get to dance...A
Omar Hall
: In article o...@baygull.rtd.com, ha...@RTD.COM (Omar Hall) writes:
: > I'd like to make a few statements to the people who have responded
: >
: ! <snip - lots of gum flapping deleted>
: >
: > discuss them yet, there seems to be a sudden burst, if you will, of
: > silence. Gee! Wonder why?
: >
: ! I'm sure everyone is tired of you!
Or I scorched them off the system. Face it, you can't hang!
Omar Hall <ha...@RTD.COM> wrote:
>
Mark H. Wrote:
>>
>If the British, as you say, have added a unique element to Afro-
>American music(50's, 60's & 70's), then why must white Americans
>seek unique musical styles from the British, when they could
have
>
>You mean like 99% of the American Rock bands(figuratively
>speaking) imitating Led Zeppelin, musically & otherwise? In
>addition, wasn't it the, uh, British(Beatles) who originally
>incorporated the long hair image into the music business? Now
>look who got stuck holding the bag, at least for quite some
time.
>Appears the majority of British musicians have now opted for the
>clean shaven look.
[Deletions]
>>This whole diatribe is such an outlandish load of crap it makes
>>me want to puke. British blues rock of the 60s and 70s for the
>>most part is a mixture of outright ripoffs, pale xeroxes, and
>>stolen American blues riffs made pretty and cranked loud. Nothing
>>original, nothing inspirational, and no authenticity in any sense.
>>I was introduced to the blues via John Mayall, Clapton, Page,
>>and the rest of those ripoff megalomaniacs trying to pass
>>themselves off as *artists*. At the time, i thought i was listening
>>to truly inspired and original stuff. Little did i know that
>>what i was being subjected to was the authentic shit run through
>>the deflavorizing machine.
You must be stupider than I. At least I knew the music was Af.-Amer.
blues influenced, I just didn't know by who! Historically speaking,
since when have whites originated music with such a bluesy feel as
Led Zep's albums 1,2 & 3? Go back to the 20's and listen to
white peoples ancestral music. Doesn't take no rocket scientist to
figure this out.
What famous 60's, 70's or 80's Af-Amer artists are influenced by
white musicians? Why must we always lay the foundations?
>>What the british have done to the blues
>>is akin to taking the Mona Lisa and giving her breast implants
>>and a new fresh, big smile and saying......*Look, see how much
>>better it is now!*. British interpretations of the blues (for
>>the most part, but not all) are big and impressive like the moon
>>and dead and distant like the moon too. More to the point,
>>Mayall is a DIRECT ripoff of Otis Rush. He didn't take Rush's
>>stuff and do more with it...he ripped him off outright..and made
>>a very good living at it as well, while Otis struggles to this
>>day. Clapton, in his latest outing, has taken some classic
>>blues and run them through the bland factory. Yeah, yeah...some
>>hot licks there and a very nice production, but nevertheless...
>>Mona Lisa with breast implants.....totally gratuitous, besides
>>the point, and ruining great pieces of art. Nothing Led Zepplin
Isn't it spelled Led Zeppelin?
Tell me sometin 'bout myself I don't alret know!
>>did in terms of interpretations of American blues comes within
>>a light year of the originals. Howlin' Wolf is rolling in
>>his grave.
Well! Well! Well! Look who's come to the dinner table! :-)
You reply as though I'm unaware of this jive you have posted.
Let's just say I baited the hook to catch a big fish. I've
learned not to lay all my chips on the table early in the game.
I'm glad you read my thoughts. Now anyone care to debate him? I
figured I would let the obvious be so obvious until someone had
to say it. When I usually begin a discussion with statements as
you posted, I get nothing but denial and alibies from the opposition.
You would have probably been one as well.
Denial is not a river in Egypt!
Accepting your post as mostly truth, why the hell do white American
musicians and music consumers kiss the British ass, via purchases
and admiration, when the original music form is from Afro.-Americans?
Because of racism, that's why. Now I will hear everything from,
"The Brits added an element...crap, crap, crap" to
"Maybe we just like their music...crap, crap, crap". Everything but
the truth!
Because the same music was right here embodied in Afro-American
citizens & American whites rejected it because of race. The white
American musicians who were influenced by it have yet to admit
it! Heart, Foreigner, Journey, CCR, Sammy Hagar, BTO, Robin
Trower, ZZ Top, Van Halen(Except Eddie),etc.
Why doesn't the industry support/recruit more white American &
Afro-American music acts to fill the positions the Brits have
filled historically? We can play on the same sports team, but we
can't jam in the same Rock band, when rock is so deeply rooted in
R & B? No wonder why the youths music today is tired & sucks on
both sides of the fence. How many Afro-Americans have been able
to achieve any substantial success in Rock & Roll? Especially
when it was booming. I'm so tired of hearing "Peace through
music." I hope the current rap & rock musical mess in the U.S.A.
isn't an example of that, otherwise we are truly doomed!
Like I stated earlier, I hope in the next 5 - 10 years there's
not a re-emergence of the Motown sound when by then the majority
of Afro-American will have moved on to other music styles.
If white American undiscovered musicians of the 70's 80's 90's
are into Motown, and I know they are, why can't they find
undiscovered Afro-American musicians to jam the same type of
music with & possibly make a break? Wouldn't this be a better
use of musical human resources on a national scale? I hate when I go to
see some band that claims to play the Motown Sound, & Blues and
discover that they are all white w/maybe 1 Af.-Amer. in the band.
Then on rock, blues, open mic or jam nights, they don't let you
on stage or they act like, what are you doing here.
>>Hey Omar, learn something about blues history and african
>>american origins before going into tirades about the British
>>*embracing* african american artists before the US did.
As if your post has signs of one who has done in depth blues &
af.-am music research.
>>There *embracing* was nothing more than a post colonial
>>obsession with the exotic...one based on power, money,
>>control, and the marketing of a truly pre-existing art form
>>into a palatable drone of a hum drum made listenable to
>>white audiences because it was being played to them by
>>white people.
>>Mark H.
Duh!
It's only once in a blue moon when you can get a white American
to admit it.
This country is equally as responsible. The record companies
have allowed it to happen. Especially with the Zep. Since, Motown
was Af.-Amer. owned & operated, their artists were not ripped off
from outside sources.
Don't argue about Berry Gordy..., because if the artists weren't
happy they would not have shown up at the Motown 25th anniversary.
In addition, where the hell were you when I asked:
"Why is it that so many British musicians will collaborate with
Afro-American musicians, but not with white American artists?
I know that many British artists have credited Afro-American
musicians as having been a major influence. Could this be the
reason why?"
SLAVERY 1: DRUDGERY, TOIL 2: submission to a dominating influence
3: the state of a person who is a chattel of another
"In the 50's & throughout the 60's I discovered that many of the
black artists were only paid a flat fee for performing their
work/artistry in the studio.
They were never paid any of the royalties from the sale(s) of the
albums. To me this is just another form of slavery!"
--Bonnie Raitt on VH1 interview '94
Like I don't know this huh!
EMASCULATE 1: to deprive of virile or procreative power :
CASTRATE 2: to deprive of strength, vigor, or spirit :
WEAKEN
"Any big money making BLACK MALE act appearing in America has to
emasculate himself. Prince has to pretend to be bisexual, Michael
Jackson has to pretend to be asexual"
-- Terrence Trent Darby 1987, on The Arsenio Hall Show
"What I meant by that was those BLACK MALE acts which have received
mass public acceptance were ones that didn't have that very strong
overt black male sexuality. The real kind of whip-it-out and stick
it in peoples face situation, at that point, hadn't really come out!"
--Terrence Trent Darby 1993, on The Arsenio Hall Show
Just signs of America working together to build a brighter tomorrow. :-)
See you in the new world!
Omar
David Kaatz
DW>I think that race is not the primary issue here. I think it has to do
DW>with styles and types of music. It does seem that Europe is more willing
DW>to embrace unusual performers who are pushing the boundaries of music.
DW>That's why Miles Davis and Jimi Hendrix found their first initial
^^^^^^^^^^^
Where do you get this? I have never heard that Miles had to go overseas
to find his first success. Can you cite a reference? Miles was a sideman
with Charlie Parker early in his career. If that's not the start of success,
what the hell is?
DW>popularity on the east side of the Atlantic. That would also explain why
DW>the big guns in progressive rock tend to hail from the UK and Europe
DW>(King Crimson, ELP, Genesis, Yes, Gentle Giant, etc.)
Yes, the American listeners are not much on embracing the progressive
rock. That's why Genesis had to "dumb it down" to achieve their fame.
Dave
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Kaatz --- dka...@eskimo.com --- dka...@intermec.com
Omar Hall
: In article o...@baygull.rtd.com, ha...@RTD.COM (Omar Hall) writes:
: > I'd like to make a few statements to the people who have responded
: >
: ! <snip - lots of gum flapping deleted>
: >
: > discuss them yet, there seems to be a sudden burst, if you will, of
: > silence. Gee! Wonder why?
: >
: ! I'm sure everyone is tired of you!
No, I just scorched them off the Internet, single handedly. Face it, you
can't hang!
Omar Hall <ha...@RTD.COM> wrote:
>
Mark H. Wrote:
>>
[Deletions]
You must be less intuitive than I. At least I knew the music was Af.-Amer.
blues influenced, I just didn't know by who! Historically speaking,
since when have whites originated music with such a bluesy feel as
Led Zep's albums 1,2 & 3? Go back to the 20's and listen to
white peoples ancestral music. Doesn't take no rocket scientist to
figure this out.
What famous 60's, 70's or 80's Af-Amer artists are influenced by
white musicians? Why must we always lay the foundations?
>>What the british have done to the blues
>>is akin to taking the Mona Lisa and giving her breast implants
>>and a new fresh, big smile and saying......*Look, see how much
>>better it is now!*. British interpretations of the blues (for
>>the most part, but not all) are big and impressive like the moon
>>and dead and distant like the moon too. More to the point,
>>Mayall is a DIRECT ripoff of Otis Rush. He didn't take Rush's
>>stuff and do more with it...he ripped him off outright..and made
>>a very good living at it as well, while Otis struggles to this
>>day. Clapton, in his latest outing, has taken some classic
>>blues and run them through the bland factory. Yeah, yeah...some
>>hot licks there and a very nice production, but nevertheless...
>>Mona Lisa with breast implants.....totally gratuitous, besides
>>the point, and ruining great pieces of art. Nothing Led Zepplin
Isn't it spelled Led Zepp "e" lin? You've done this twice in this post.
>>Mark H.
Duh!
See ya in the next kingdom!
Omar
Ram Samudrala
>Accepting your post as mostly truth, why the hell do white American
>musicians and music consumers kiss the British ass, via purchases and
>admiration, when the original music form is from Afro.-Americans?
I am a big fan of British musicians (as well as Bay Area thrash
groups). Groups like Pink Floyd and Deep Purple are my favourite. I
really fail to see where the original music is from when I listen to
these musicians. Sure, in Deep Purple's music there're a lot of
classical elements and some blues-based riffs but I really /don't
care/. If a group is good, you listen to it---you're under no logical
obligation to listen to music which influenced it. It's like saying
everyone who's a fan of Sex Pistols should listen to the Ramones, even
though the latter is credited with the creation of punk rock.
In the case of Deep Purple/Sabbath, there have been extensive
American/European collabarations. I'm gonna list a few, and if I get
any wrong, it's simply because I really don't care and don't pay
Black Sabbath/Tony Martin/Dio
Blackmore/Dio/Joe Lynn Turner/now with a bunch of Americans
Deep Purple/Joe Lynn Turner/Coverdale
Coverdale/Page
Is Tommy Bolin American? How about Glenn Hughes? I am not sure where
anyone's from, but there's a lot of inter-mingling here between the
two sides.
I think this "kissing the British ass" is a bit off. American music
is a popular as ever, if not more.
>Because of racism, that's why.
st...@elroy.uh.edu
>Bill Moore (bil...@nyx.cs.du.edu) wrote:
>
>: Uh, Tommy Petty and the Ramones aren't "flashes in the pan" or
>: "one hit wonders". Neither is Tori Amos, whom you've never heard of,
>: nor Chrissie Hynde. These are big-time rock personalities. What are
>: you talking about? You're making little sense.
>
>I believe the only musician you mention who isn't a flash in the pan is Tom
>Petty. According to The Billboard Book of Gold & Platinum Records, Tori
>Amos had no certified gold or platinum albums as of 1990. Chrissie Hynde,
> and The Ramones ditto. The Pretenders have 2 certified gold, 1 certified
>platinum, and 1 certified platinum straggler(rel. 1980 Cert. 1982) album
>as of 1990.
>If this is your idea of "BIG-TIME ROCK PERSONALITIES", then I think your
>signing off over & out is by no means too soon!
I have avoided this thread long enough.
Omar, you cannot define artistic matters solely by sales. Granted,
this is "consumer art", but art it is. Tori Amos had no gold albums
as of 1990 because her first album, Little Earthquakes, was released
in 1991, I believe. Possibly late 1990. However, she has already
shown signs of a deepening artistic maturity with her second album,
Under The Pink. To fit your definition of "success", I'd like to
point out that both CD's sold very well. (For the record, I'm not
even much of a fan of her work, but she's got promise.)
Do you not even know that Chrissie Hynde is the vocalist and songwriter
of the Pretenders, and hasn't released solo work except for a cameo
with UB40 on "I Got You Babe"?
As for the Ramones, their influence is tantamount to the quote attributed
to Brian Eno about the Velvet Underground, paraphrased: "Hardly anyone
bought their first album, but everyone who did formed a band." Absolutely
crucial to the punk revolution, the Ramones did the Sex Pistols a favor
by publicizing the "Anarchy In The U.K" during radio interviews before
Never Mind The Bollocks was released in the U.S. The Ramones are still
around after 20 years; I should think that would preclude them from
"flash in the pan" status. They're not "one-hit wonders" either; I don't
think they have ANY "hits", but if that's how you define great music, then
I don't think your pomposity is grounded in any substance whatsoever.
Cease and desist.
Byph Argentina
st...@jetson.uh.edu
Gary E. MacIndoe
> I'd like to make a few statements to the people who have responded
>
! <snip - lots of gum flapping deleted>
>
> discuss them yet, there seems to be a sudden burst, if you will, of
> silence. Gee! Wonder why?
>
! I'm sure everyone is tired of you!
> of success, I might as well discontinue this discussion now.
>
! PLEASE
>
> Ciao for Niao!
>
> Omar
!
!
!
!
!
!
!
!
!
!
!
!
!
!
!
Ram Samudrala
>Hmmm. Taking into cosideration your hatred for humanity...and presuming
>that you are (though loosely, it seems) affiliated with such race... Have
>you considered suicide?
No, I happen to enjoy life immensely. I don't consider myself to be
part of the human race, really.
>I don't know if you were serious about "seeing nothing wrong with
>racism"; but if you were....
Let me rephrase the comment and say that I would /never/ apply any
generalisation I make about anything, to the individual level. This,
when people do it to specific groups of individuals based on their
race, is what I consider racism (so I'm not really racist---I do
stereotype, but I never take a stereotype to an individual). Now, I
believe I am tolerant of everyone and everything (in a general
sense---I judge each individual separately). But most people in this
world are not. Most people are inherently racist, and I think this is
because of xenophobia (I fear you're exhibiting something like that
with my comment above). I see nothing wrong (using Sartrean reason)
with it however IF they themselves do not /honestly mind/ being a
victim of racism. It's definitely seems stupid to me, but they are
fulfilling the only moral rule I have.
I honestly don't mind if people make judgements against me based on my
skin colour or various other superficial characteristics. I have
friends who did this initially but I overcame the stereotype (mainly
because I pride myself into not fitting in any stereotype). If people
don't talk to me based on certain characteristics of me, I consider it
their loss.
>I pitty your ignorence... your music must surely suffer from you fear
>of learning, and lack of diversity in experience...
I do not see how me not being against racism makes me any less learned
(using a traditional definition) or makes me
--Ram
Ram Samudrala r...@elan1.carb.nist.gov
"God does not [play] dice." ---Einstein
"God does play dice." ---Quantum Mechanics
"God does play dice, but it's loaded." ---Chaos
Omar Hall
lines long, consisting of 8 questions. For those of you who
have been to school and those of you who haven't, it is customary
when test taking to skip over the questions you have no immediate
answers to and respond to the ones you have answers for. Then
return to the previously unanswered later. Not that we are in
school, or that this is a test, but following this logic would it
be safe to say the reason why 95% of the people posting in this
discussion skipped over my first five questions and proceeded to,
profusely, respond to the last 2(3 lines), indicate that they
could not answer the former.
criticality, in terms of left to right, first to last, top to
bottom, it would be realized that the further down the list my
question, the lower in terms of importance, at least to me.
I can't dictate how or in what order anyone should respond to a
post, but it is obvious this discussion has been intentionally
skewed to discuss some semi-trivial side dish question, at the expense of
the meat and potatoes, in hopes of suiting the purposes of a few
respondents.
Granted, I don't have a wealth of statistics regarding the
Af-Amer. musicians that have gone to Europe to achieve success.
However, I did provide to the viewers of my initial post facts to
substantiate the claims I made higher up the list! I think
Joseph E. McCall Jr. was on target when he stated, "I think the
use of your word "some" in the sentence above dismisses any kind
of discussion", in reference to my asking about some blacks
needing to go to Europe to achieve success. Why do you think I
used the word "SOME"? That's what words are for, to use to my
advantage. I didn't quantify the number of Af-Amer's who went to
Europe. Contrarily, I do have examples to support my view on
some of the questions I asked earlier on, and I sincerely wish to
discuss them yet, there seems to be a sudden burst, if you will, of
silence. Gee! Wonder why?
discussion which would require a week off from work to adequately
respond to them. But briefly, in response to some of the
previous postings regarding Ike & Tina Turner and their assumed
earlier success in the U.S. If one gold album, according to
collaborations growing out of the industries race based structure
w.r.t. blues. I don't agree. If you look at the examples of
collaborations I listed, they are Rock, R&B, PoP, etc.
:-)
Ciao for Niao!
Omar
Jonathan Egre
>
>I was in a very heavily blues influenced white rock group recently & they
>stated, "I thought about it & realized there hasn't been any black
>guitarists or vocalists fronting any rock & roll bands historically,
>except Jimi. That's bad since it came from blacks".
This is
(1) Self-contradictory. Rock and roll could not have "come from blacks"
if there were never any black rock & roll bands before Jimi Hendrix.
(2) Historically inaccurate. Actually, this is a bit subjective, since
it depends on exactly how you define "rock and roll"; but in my book
you can't get more rock & roll than Little Richard and Chuck Berry.
And they did rather well out of it. Their records might have had the
words "rhythm and blues" on the outside, but the music was rock & roll.
More recently, Thin Lizzy was fronted by black Irishman Phil Lynott;
Living Colour you've mentioned yourself; Lenny Kravitz; Prince (some
of the time); Tina Turner.
Perhaps the common practice of labelling all music by black artists as
"rhythm and blues" is what is confusing uninformed people such as
yourself and your band-mates.
(3) Balanced by the lack of white rappers, etc. Steve Manes has already
covered this.
Now here's a challenge for Omar.
Get out your Guinness book of hits. Trawl through the book and add up
the number of black and white American artists in the book (regardless
of how many records they've sold). Don't count non-Americans, don't
count anybody that you aren't absolutely sure is 100% American, don't
count anybody that you aren't 100% sure is black or white. Work out the
proportion of 100% certain black Americans in the book to 100% certain
white Americans in the book, and compare with the proportions of black
and white people in the American population (and don't make the mistake
of including Asian-americans, native Americans, etc. in the "white"
total).
If the percentage of black performers is less than the percentage of
blacks in the population, then you have statistical grounds for your
core claim of discrimination. If the percentage of black performers is
higher than the percentage of blacks in the population, as I believe it
will be, then blacks are in fact over-represented in the music industry.
total).
--
Jonathan Egre' at Jobstream Group plc, Cambridge, UK
I am *not* representing Jobstream Group plc with this message or posting
IMC
>From: reic...@rosgip.gsfc.nasa.gov (Gail A Reichert)
>Subject: Re: I KNOW YOU GONNA READ THIS!!!
>Date: 30 Jan 1995 17:45:51 GMT
>> Omar Hall <ha...@RTD.COM> wrote:
>[... some back & forth snipped for brevity ...]
>> >
>> >I also did ask, how many whites had to go to Britain to achive success in
>> >the U.S. Funny how you seem to selectively reply to my questions.
>> >Why don't you continue on and respond to all of them as they were posted?
>> >
>Frank D. Malczewski (f...@WLV.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM) wrote:
>> How about Chrissie Hynde (of the Pretenders)?
>I think Tori Amos as well.
>Respect & regards,
>Gail Reichert reic...@rosgip.gsfc.nasa.gov
2?
wow.
*Healer*
Martin Green
Newsgroups:
soc.culture.african.american,soc.culture.usa,rec.music.funky,rec.music.makers,re
ec.music.bluenote.blues,alt.rock-n-roll,alt.rock-n-roll.aerosmith,alt.rock-n-rol
ll.classic,alt.music.peter-gabriel,alt.music.prince
From: c1...@dmu.ac.uk (Martin Green)
Subject: Re: I KNOW YOU GONNA READ THIS!!!
Distribution:
Followup-To:
References: <3gpsqi$o...@baygull.rtd.com> <3gre4q$t...@uwm.edu>
<3gs346$s...@baygull.rtd.com>
Organization: De Montfort University, Leicester
Keywords:
To: ha...@RTD.COM (Omar Hall)
In article <3gs346$s...@baygull.rtd.com>, ha...@RTD.COM (Omar Hall) writes:
> Anthony Mueller (to...@csd4.csd.uwm.edu) wrote:
> : From article <3gpsqi$o...@baygull.rtd.com>, by ha...@RTD.COM (Omar Hall):
> : > I'd like to make a few statements to the people who have responded
> be safe to say the reason why 95% of the people posting in this
> : > discussion skipped over my first five questions and proceeded to,
> : > profusely, respond to the last 2(3 lines), indicate that they
> : > could not answer the former.
>
This is a pretty pathetic excuse for your bigoted declarations not holding
water in reality!
> : The questions, in fact, read more like statements. You all
> : ready have your mind made up and have been quite obnoxious and insulting
> : at the same time.
>
> Didn't mean to be rude, but it is a hot issue for me.
> If you think I have my mind made up, convince me otherwise.
Seems a pretty pointless exercise several postings have disproven your
incoherent babble supporting their own arguments with evidence which you have
not. As I said before it has been shown that people ignore evidence that
contradicts their own beliefs, which you are so obviously doing.
I have seen no counter claims to your statement that the blues originated
in America some 50 years ago, (most people's blues collections date back
further than this) and that the blues was a purely Afro-American invention
this does not explain the 16th century melodies in early negro field hollers
and ballads (there is also the case of Leadbelly singing a a cowboy song with
celtic tuning, and Leadbelly's repertoire dates before the turn of the century,
though since he was around before blues existed [according to you] he
obviously was not a blues artist). To repeat myself the recorded blues in
America came out of the Negro, Irish, Native American Tribes and various
European sources interacting with one another this sprouted several styles
one of them being blues.
> I'm not
> too old & set in my ways to change my way of thinking. As of yet
> the posters in this discussion have not proven much to me, except that
See above!
> Afro-Americans don't currently go to the U.K. to achieve success
> in the U.S. Yah Hoo! :-( as if this shouldn't have been the case
> since 1863.
>
They didn't beforehand if you do your research!
> Stick around, the best is yet to come! :-)
>
> : BTW: Just because you ordered your so called questions a certain way has
> : no effect and does not invalidate other people's points.
>
> question, at the expense of the meat and potatoes in hopes of suiting
> the purposees of a few respondents."
>
The underlying point you make is that black artists didn't receive mainstream
success in the U.S. (though you do change it for convenience sake whenever
anyone exposes major flaws in your argument), Nat King Cole, Sammy Davis,
Louis Armstrong, Chuck Berry, Fats Domino, Otis Redding, Little Richard,
Bobby Day, Inkspots, Isley Brothers, Ray Charles. Now these people have
received critical and commercial success that a good deal of big name white
artists will never achieve.
> I would have thought the fact that Brits don't jam with white USA
> would be a good basis for a more interesting discussion. Guess I was
> wrong!
Well you obviously don't look, listen or think because it's happening right
now and has been since the late fifties. I did post a list of major
collaborations between Brits and White Americans, though you obviously
ignored that for convenience sake once more. The fact is this concept exists
in your horrid bigoted mind.
Never mind soon be Christmas!
Mart.
Omar Hall
: In article <3gs1hc$s...@baygull.rtd.com>, Omar Hall <ha...@RTD.COM> wrote:
: >
: >I was in a very heavily blues influenced white rock group recently & they
: >stated, "I thought about it & realized there hasn't been any black
: >guitarists or vocalists fronting any rock & roll bands historically,
: >except Jimi. That's bad since it came from blacks".
: This is
: (1) Self-contradictory. Rock and roll could not have "come from blacks"
: if there were never any black rock & roll bands before Jimi Hendrix.
Art they classified as rock & roll? No!
: (2) Historically inaccurate. Actually, this is a bit subjective, since
: it depends on exactly how you define "rock and roll"; but in my book
: you can't get more rock & roll than Little Richard and Chuck Berry.
: And they did rather well out of it. Their records might have had the
: words "rhythm and blues" on the outside, but the music was rock & roll.
: More recently, Thin Lizzy was fronted by black Irishman Phil Lynott;
A black enough man, might I add.
: Living Colour you've mentioned yourself; Lenny Kravitz; Prince (some
: of the time); Tina Turner.
A female in the eighties, and two male acts from the nineties. Pretty
good for 40 years! The primary influences of white men in
rock & roll, I think, has been the Afro.-Amer. male. I may be
wrong, it could be the Af.-Amer. women.
: (3) Balanced by the lack of white rappers, etc. Steve Manes has already
: covered this.
Comparable to Af.-Amer. country western stars.
: Now here's a challenge for Omar.
: Get out your Guinness book of hits. Trawl through the book and add up
: the number of black and white American artists in the book (regardless
: of how many records they've sold). Don't count non-Americans, don't
: count anybody that you aren't absolutely sure is 100% American, don't
: count anybody that you aren't 100% sure is black or white. Work out the
: proportion of 100% certain black Americans in the book to 100% certain
: white Americans in the book, and compare with the proportions of black
: and white people in the American population (and don't make the mistake
: of including Asian-americans, native Americans, etc. in the "white"
: total).
: If the percentage of black performers is less than the percentage of
: blacks in the population, then you have statistical grounds for your
: core claim of discrimination. If the percentage of black performers is
: higher than the percentage of blacks in the population, as I believe it
: will be, then blacks are in fact over-represented in the music industry.
: total).
: --
And if the percentage of whites influenced by Af.-Amers. is greater than
the percentage of Af.-Amers. influenced by whites than who is being under
represented of RIPPED OFF?
Omar
Steven Sullivan
: I believe the only musician you mention who isn't a flash in the pan is Tom
: Petty. According to The Billboard Book of Gold & Platinum Records, Tori
: Amos had no certified gold or platinum albums as of 1990. Chrissie Hynde,
: and The Ramones ditto. The Pretenders have 2 certified gold, 1 certified
: platinum, and 1 certified platinum straggler(rel. 1980 Cert. 1982) album
: as of 1990.
: If this is your idea of "BIG-TIME ROCK PERSONALITIES", then I think your
: signing off over & out is by no means too soon!
Omar, you're as clueless as they come. Thanks for making me smile.
Thor Iverson
the silly wide-angle spamming going on here has caused most intelligent
people, who otherwise might enjoy this discussion, to roll their eyes at
Yet Another Clueless Usenet Newbie and kill the whole thread. Free hint,
Omar, which you'll probably ignore but I'll offer anyway--if you want people
to argue with you in a rational manner, then post your challenges in a
rational manner.
In article <3h0o57$3...@baygull.rtd.com>, Omar Hall <ha...@RTD.COM> wrote:
>No, I just scorched them off the Internet, single handedly. Face it, you
>can't hang!
Great...a "mine is bigger than yours" opening. Anyway...
>Historically speaking, since when have whites originated music with such a
>bluesy feel as Led Zep's albums 1,2 & 3?
_III_? Oh, yeah, "Immigrant Song" really has its roots on the Delta...
And why, if this is all still directed at Zeppelin, is this not still on
alt.music.led-zeppelin, where I first saw it?
>What famous 60's, 70's or 80's Af-Amer artists are influenced by
>white musicians? Why must we always lay the foundations?
Kathleen Battle. Jessye Norman. Wynton Marsalis. Branford Marsalis.
Ron Carter. Just to name a very few.
But yes, I know that your musical scope doesn't run to classical, so you
wouldn't have been expected to note these classical or jazz crossover artists
anytime soon.
Plenty of modern black blues artists acknowledge non-black blues artists
as innovators. Ask Buddy Guy about SRV sometime.
Furthermore, you're forgetting one _very_ important name--Miles Davis. Who
was influenced a _great_ deal by Stockhausen.
And as for the second question--why does this bother you? Personally, I
would be _happy_ if everything I did was innovative. But to address the
question directly--this is an easy exercise in a circular socio-artistic
pattern. Artists always work best with pain. Blacks in the US have
experienced plenty of pain. Hence they produce incredible art. Which is
eventually recognized for its brilliance, and (like all art) then mass-
produced and copied and translated and analyzed and picked apart and
regurgitated. The question should instead be: if "we" have no pain, will
we lay _any_ foundations at all, or simply be ignored?
>You reply as though I'm unaware of this jive you have posted.
>Let's just say I baited the hook to catch a big fish. I've
>learned not to lay all my chips on the table early in the game.
>I'm glad you read my thoughts. Now anyone care to debate him? I
>figured I would let the obvious be so obvious until someone had
>to say it. When I usually begin a discussion with statements as
>you posted, I get nothing but denial and alibies from the opposition.
>You would have probably been one as well.
I included this whole paragraph, in hopes that later perusal would reveal
that it actually had something to say. I guess I was wrong.
>Denial is not a river in Egypt!
You got the saying wrong.
>Accepting your post as mostly truth, why the hell do white American
>musicians and music consumers kiss the British ass, via purchases
>and admiration, when the original music form is from Afro.-Americans?
Marketing. And that's changing. Consumers are now ignoring what comes
from Britain and focusing more on what comes from their own country. And
the marketing will follow. Marketing is why _Chant_ gets to #4, and it has
no small part to play in getting Ice Cube there either. Trends are created
by word-of-mouth, trends feed themselves, marketing follows trends, marketing
kills trends, and new word-of-mouth replaces them. This is much more
important than racism in deciding who sells albums and who doesn't.
Case in point: Robert Johnson. Whisperings from nearly ever important
British blues/rock artist of the late sixties led _directly_ to _The Complete
Recordings_, which charted decades after his death. Slap Clapton and Keith
Richards on the cover with blurbs and presto! Instant hit. Robert Johnson's
music hadn't changed one iota since he recorded a few sides all those years
ago, yet the proper marketing got it to sell.
>Because the same music was right here embodied in Afro-American
>citizens & American whites rejected it because of race.
Only vaguely true. The white record labels of the time rejected it because
of race, justified by invented projected sales numbers. But plenty of white
kids listened to the music, bought the records, heard the songs. And once
in a while, a Jerry Wexler would come along and break the cycle.
>The white American musicians who were influenced by it have yet to admit
>it! Heart, Foreigner, Journey, CCR, Sammy Hagar, BTO, Robin Trower, ZZ Top,
>Van Halen(Except Eddie),etc.
I think you need to pay a bit more attention to both the music that these
bands put out and the words of the ones who _are_ actually blues-derivative.
Billy Gibbons would be extremely annoyed at the implication that he doesn't
acknowledge his sources.
>Why doesn't the industry support/recruit more white American &
>Afro-American music acts to fill the positions the Brits have
>filled historically? We can play on the same sports team, but we
>can't jam in the same Rock band, when rock is so deeply rooted in
>R & B?
See, _now_ I understand. You're pissed off 'cuz you can't get a gig. Well,
I haven't heard you, Omar, but maybe you just can't play. Did you ever think
of that? No, probably not. Because it's someone else's fault.
>How many Afro-Americans have been able to achieve any substantial success in
>Rock & Roll?
None, Omar. Not one single solitary black musician has ever sold a single
album or gotten a single moment of airplay since the first electric guitar
was plugged in (no doubt by a white man, because certainly no one was there
to _hear_ black blues artists doing it--seeing as how they were roundly and
routinely ignored by everybody).
In case you didn't notice, that was sarcasm.
>I hope the current rap & rock musical mess in the U.S.A. isn't an example of
>that, otherwise we are truly doomed!
I gather from this, and other statements, that you rather dislike the
identification of rap with African-American culture. How patronizing of
you. Perhaps you'd like to debate it directly with the people in question--
why not take this over to a rap newsgroup and tell them that you think their
role models are destructive (as you said in another message).
>If white American undiscovered musicians of the 70's 80's 90's
>are into Motown, and I know they are, why can't they find
>undiscovered Afro-American musicians to jam the same type of
>music with & possibly make a break? Wouldn't this be a better
>use of musical human resources on a national scale? I hate when I go to
>see some band that claims to play the Motown Sound, & Blues and
>discover that they are all white w/maybe 1 Af.-Amer. in the band.
>Then on rock, blues, open mic or jam nights, they don't let you
>on stage or they act like, what are you doing here.
So this is basically a diatribe against the lack of Affirmative Action
in the music business. So why didn't you say so from the beginning?
And yes--I just _hate_ it when those white people claim to be able to play
blues or R&B. Next thing you know, they'll want to play basketball or
listen to rap...
>Don't argue about Berry Gordy..., because if the artists weren't
>happy they would not have shown up at the Motown 25th anniversary.
This is just silly. Barry Gordy made plenty of mistakes. Artists were there
recognizing the importance of the institution, not Gordy himself.
> "Any big money making BLACK MALE act appearing in America has to
> emasculate himself. Prince has to pretend to be bisexual, Michael
> Jackson has to pretend to be asexual"
>
> -- Terrence Trent Darby 1987, on The Arsenio Hall Show
Mmm-hmm. R. Kelly looks pretty effeminate to me. As do Corey Glover, Jimi
Hendrix, Mark White, Robert Cray, Dr. Dre, George Clinton, Lenny Kravitz,
Joshua Redman, Bobby Brown, etc., etc. Darby should deal with his own
problems and stop making ridiculous generalizations.
> "What I meant by that was those BLACK MALE acts which have received
> mass public acceptance were ones that didn't have that very strong
> overt black male sexuality. The real kind of whip-it-out and stick
> it in peoples face situation, at that point, hadn't really come out!"
>
> --Terrence Trent Darby 1993, on The Arsenio Hall Show
...or maybe Darby just wasn't paying close attention, because he had to
spend so much time picking out his eye shadow. He obviously wasn't looking
at the artists around him. Nor was he cognizant of the same trend in (gasp)
white British rockers a few decades earlier.
Thor Iverson tive...@lynx.dac.neu.edu
Author, Led Zeppelin FAQL Opinions are.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"I've worked with Phil Johnstone - nobody's perfect." -- Robert Plant
*** For Page/Plant tour dates: finger ti...@azure.engin.umich.edu ***
*** WWW: http://tam2000.tamu.edu/~jrh3870/pptourdates.html ***
Gilles Bacon
rec.music.bluenote.blues,alt.rock-n-roll,alt.rock-n-roll.aerosmith,alt.rock-n-
roll.classic,alt.music.peter-gabriel,alt.music.prince
That's the list of newsgroups you just posted to.
Don't you think it's ridiculous. But then, with a sig like that ...
COULD YOU PLEASE STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Gilles
In article <3hb9g9$a...@m.ehd.hwc.ca>, cpan...@hpb.hwc.ca says...
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
gil...@netcom.com ^Groove^: a Hammond organ WWW page
ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/gi/gilles/groove.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Practice random acts of kindness & senseless acts of beauty!
Dave Hodgkinson
dma...@casbah.acns.nwu.edu "David Marks" writes:
>In article <3hb9g9$a...@m.ehd.hwc.ca>,
>Claude Panneton <cpan...@hpb.hwc.ca> wrote:
>
>>.... I pitty your ignorence...
>
>? ;-)
>
You know, the thing you stuff with felafel, salad and chiles.
--
"You get this on a big job" - Ian Lording
Roger Brown
isn't her 3 minutes of semi-fame over?
I think Omar is right.
- Roger
Cyber Toasticus
Cyber Toast
________________________________________________________
*********make my funk the p-funk************************
*********i wants to get funked up***********************
____________*________________*__________________________
the expressed opinions do not reflect any rational train of thought
any transgressions, correspondences, hate or love mail can be sent
to
chris turner clt...@imap1.asu.edu
On Thu, 9 Feb 1995, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
> Date: Thu, 9 FEB 1995 19:54:47 +0000
> From: Dave Hodgkinson <da...@dhcs.demon.co.uk>
> Newgroups: soc.culture.african.american, soc.culture.usa, rec.music.funky,
> rec.music.makers, rec.music.bluenote.blues, alt.rock-n-roll,
> alt.rock-n-roll.aerosmith, alt.rock-n-roll.classic,
> alt.music.peter-gabriel, alt.music.prince
> Subject: Re: I KNOW YOU GONNA READ THIS!!!
>
Omar Hall
: -> ole U. S. of A.! All these people can't be wrong! Living Colour
: -> is the founder of the coalition of thousands of members. You
: -> should listen to some of Living Colours experiences for starters.
: This is not quite accurate. The coalition was founded by Nelson George and
: Vernon Reid. Living Colours (sic) (The band is actually called Living
: Colour) is an outgrowth of the coalition, not the other way around.
: ->
Vernon is a member of Living Colour. No need to get all technical!
Do you put on both socks first then your shoes, or do you put on one sock
then one shoe? Pleeze!
: -> I was in a very heavily blues influenced white rock group recently & they
: -> stated, "I thought about it & realized there hasn't been any black
: -> guitarists or vocalists fronting any rock & roll bands historically,
: -> except Jimi. That's bad since it came from blacks".
: Duh-oh! Let's see, we've got Booker T. and the MGs, (though Booker T.
: plays organ) we've got Otis Redding (doing covers of stones tunes, btw)
: we've got Arthur Lee (and love), we've got Robert Cray, we've got Sly and
: the Family Stone,
These acts are along the lines of Van Halen, Aerosmith, Rolling Stones,
Journey, Rush, Fleetwood Mac. You know, big money makers!
: -> If you're not going to share the benefits of what both races in this nation
: -> have made contributions to create, than you can expect to get what
: -> you're getting here and elswhere! Trouble & Flames! Yes I'm pissed, DAMN
: -> PISSED!
: Your earlier posts indicated little but ignorance about the history of the
: music. Howlin' Wolf developed his trademark howl as an attempt to imitate
: Jimmie Rodgers, an early country music artist.
That's right. Whites started it all! I'm so tired of people using some
nic nac example of a black influenced by a white artists to claim that
blacks were influenced by whites. Face it whites are HEAVILY(key word)
influenced by black musicians and vocalists more often than the other way
around.
So what if Chaka Kahn, The Jacksons, Aretha Franklin, Earth Wind & Fire,
the Isleys, etc. covered a Beatles tune. It's obvious they aren't heavily
influenced by these artists. This is not the case with several of the white
rock bands I mentioned here and in earlier posts.
:Chuck Berry, in his
: autobiography, discusses how he spent hours listening to Country Western
: music along side rnb and blues and how that influenced his song writing.
: The fact is that rock and roll grows out of black and white, rural and
: urban, raw and sophisticated roots.
You forgot Charley Pride.
: aric
Omar
Omar Hall
: In article <3gs1hc$s...@baygull.rtd.com>, ha...@RTD.COM (Omar Hall) wrote:
: -> I was in a very heavily blues influenced white rock group recently & they
: -> stated, "I thought about it & realized there hasn't been any black
: -> guitarists or vocalists fronting any rock & roll bands historically,
: -> except Jimi. That's bad since it came from blacks".
: Duh-oh! Let's see, we've got Booker T. and the MGs, (though Booker T.
: plays organ) we've got Otis Redding (doing covers of stones tunes, btw)
: we've got Arthur Lee (and love), we've got Robert Cray, we've got Sly and
: the Family Stone,
In addition, these groups you've listed are traditionally recognized as
R & B and blues, not Rock & Roll. If you go to a record store that still
catagorizes its music as rap, r&b, country, rock & roll, etc.
I'll guarantee you won't find the artists you listed in the rock & roll
bins next to Jimi Hendrix!
Musically, I agree they do rock, but the music industry has used the term
Rock & Roll to segregate and discriminate, thus attempting to make Rock &
Roll a strictly white mans form of music.
Furthermore, that will be the day I hear Sly Stone, Otis Redding, Booker
T, etc songs frequently rotated on the local Rock & Roll radio station
here in Tucson, Arizona!
Rock stations I've listend to in Arizona & California have played all white
rock music on thier rock & roll radio stations during prime time. Maybe in
the late 80's & 90's some Tina Turner & Living Colour, but that's it! If
they do play any black rock it is on a sunday or on some late night blues
program.
Martin Green
Rubin) writes:
> In article <3gs1hc$s...@baygull.rtd.com>, ha...@RTD.COM (Omar Hall) wrote:
>
>
> -> ole U. S. of A.! All these people can't be wrong! Living Colour
> -> is the founder of the coalition of thousands of members. You
> -> should listen to some of Living Colours experiences for starters.
>
> This is not quite accurate. The coalition was founded by Nelson George and
> Vernon Reid. Living Colours (sic) (The band is actually called Living
> Colour) is an outgrowth of the coalition, not the other way around.
Well it's Living Color actually, if you think this is pathetic, re-examine
the person's comment, he/she forgot to include the apostrophe, so it should have
been : of Living Color's experiences.....; ya see!
->
> -> I was in a very heavily blues influenced white rock group recently & they
> -> stated, "I thought about it & realized there hasn't been any black
> -> guitarists or vocalists fronting any rock & roll bands historically,
> -> except Jimi. That's bad since it came from blacks".
>
Hendrix wads of mixed race, and how many blacks do you see at heavy rock gigs.
> Duh-oh! Let's see, we've got Booker T. and the MGs, (though Booker T.
> plays organ) we've got Otis Redding (doing covers of stones tunes, btw)
Well as far as I'm aware he did Satisfaction, that's one.
He did cover versions of far more black artists than he did white ones.
He has stated his chief influences as Little Richard & Sam Cooke.
> we've got Arthur Lee (and love),
Do me a favour!
>we've got Robert Cray, we've got Sly and
> the Family Stone,
> -> If you're not going to share the benefits of what both races in this nation
> -> have made contributions to create, than you can expect to get what
> -> you're getting here and elswhere! Trouble & Flames! Yes I'm pissed, DAMN
> -> PISSED!
>
> Your earlier posts indicated little but ignorance about the history of the
> music.
Hey! I can see you are about to amke the self same mistake, wait for it!
> Howlin' Wolf developed his trademark howl as an attempt to imitate
> Jimmie Rodgers, an early country music artist.
Whhoooah! Told yer! Are we talking about the same Jimmie Ridgers here,
Howlin' 's (we used to be good friends you know) bears virtual no relation
to Rodgers yodelling, the howl came primarily from Howlin' 's major
influence Charley Patton (his expressive moans), now this is a common
feature of many negro artists of the time and is still found in tribal
music in the African West Coast. Also found in the Native American music,
since these tribes mixed commonly with the negroes, this could possibly
explain the stylistic differences of their homelands.
Now Jimmie worked as a brakeman with hoboes and black men on the railroad.
Armstrong played on to me his most well known track "Blue Yodel".
He was the first known country artist to use the steel guitar, Hawaian guitar
(instruments derived from African sources and played traditionally by
blacks).
Now he was a poor guitarist but great stylist who was heavily influenced by
black culture, though he had a great impact on the development of country
music.
Both blacks and whites played country and blues music in the 20's though it
was not that well documented, during the thirties the split began to occur.
YThis comes out of the fact that the Irish virtually brought country music
over to the New World wholesale, they were treated as outcasts so spent much of
their time with the negroes, now music was important to both so they played
together. Hence they influenced each other's music. So blues and country
developed chiefly as we know it today alongside one another. Also many of the
cowhands were negroes.
>Chuck Berry, in his
> autobiography, discusses how he spent hours listening to Country Western
> music along side rnb and blues and how that influenced his song writing.
Well you've got a good point here, though all of Chuck's best stuff is him
basically playing Johnnie Johnson's piano rolls on the guitar.
His country influenced stuff, is either of a lower standard or not so well
known.
> The fact is that rock and roll grows out of black and white, rural and
> urban, raw and sophisticated roots.
>
Yes. But you assume country is *white* and blues is *black*
"Ain't necessarily so"
> aric
>
>
> ->
> -> "You've killed all our leaders. I don't even have to do nothing to you,
> -> you'll cause your own country to fall."
> ->
Hell. Gone half way there already, Reagan, Bush & Clinton as the last three
presidents. When is it Dan the man's turn ?
> -> --Stevie Wonder
> ->
> -> Omar
Hey Omar ! Where's that list, I'm waiting.
"The Road Goes On Forever,
And The Party Never Ends"
Take it easy,
Mart.
Ray Ciccolella
>In addition, these groups you've listed are traditionally recognized as R
& B
>and blues, not Rock & Roll. If you go to a record store that still
catagorizes
>its music as rap, r&b, country, rock & roll, etc. I'll guarantee you won't
find
>the artists you listed in the rock & roll bins next to Jimi Hendrix!
>Musically, I agree they do rock, but the music industry has used the term
Rock
>& Roll to segregate and discriminate, thus attempting to make Rock & Roll
a
>strictly white mans form of music. Furthermore, that will be the day I
hear Sly
>Stone, Otis Redding, Booker T, etc songs frequently rotated on the local
Rock &
>Roll radio station here in Tucson, Arizona!
>Rock stations I've listend to in Arizona & California have played all
white
>rock music on thier rock & roll radio stations during prime time. Maybe
in the
>late 80's & 90's some Tina Turner & Living Colour, but that's it! If they
do
>play any black rock it is on a sunday or on some late night blues program.
--
This pigeonholing of styles is what separates today's rock scene from the
"classic" era of the mid-60's to early 70's, when you heard _everything_ on
your local rock stations. Sly used to sell out "white" venues on a regular
basis (then be 2 hours late for the show). Motown, r&b, you heard it all.
And (as I've said before in this group) the "black" stations played the
beatles. Stones, Rascals. Elton's Bennie and the Jets was a big crossover
hit.
BTW, Screaming Cheetah Wheelies is fronted by a black singer/guitarist.
Ray Ciccolella
rcic...@pipeline.com
CLINT ALLEN
abu...@cc.swarthmore.edu (Adam Bucky) writes:
>
>In article <3hpah7$8...@baygull.rtd.com>, ha...@RTD.COM (Omar Hall)
>1) Rock'n'roll does not "come from" blacks. It does not "come from"
>whites. It "comes from" human beings. I would make a case to support
this
>point, but it's already been proven to you several times over.
>
>2) Here, as before, you have proferred only dogmatic assertion, without
>deigning to substantiate it. Whenever I hear the phrase "It's obvious
>that..." in what purports to be a logically argued and supported case,
I
>know it's all over.
>
> -Adam
>
PLEASE!!!!
Don't ever mention RUSH's name among such foul acts as Aerosmith or
..gasp...Van Halen....
My God!
In The Cage
Cyber Toasticus
Cyber Toast
________________________________________________________
...the desired effect is what you get when you improve
your interplanetary funkmanship...
____________*________________*__________________________
On 14 Feb 1995, Omar Hall wrote:
> Date: 14 FEB 1995 04:11:19 GMT
> From: Omar Hall <ha...@RTD.COM>
> Newgroups: soc.culture.african.american, soc.culture.usa, rec.music.funky,
> rec.music.makers, rec.music.bluenote.blues, alt.rock-n-roll,
> alt.rock-n-roll.aerosmith, alt.rock-n-roll.classic,
> alt.music.peter-gabriel, alt.music.prince
> Subject: Re: I KNOW YOU GONNA READ THIS!!!
>
Gilles Bacon
Aric Rubin
-> In article <adr-110295...@slip200.sirius.com>, a...@sirius.com (Aric
-> Rubin) writes:
-
-> Well it's Living Color actually, if you think this is pathetic, re-examine
Well, it's Living Colour actually, at least my copy of Vivid says Living Colour
on it. Maybe they use the American spelling over there. ;-)
-> Hendrix wads of mixed race, and how many blacks do you see at heavy
rock gigs.
-
-> > we've got Arthur Lee (and love),
-> Do me a favour!
I have no idea what you mean by this. Perhaps you could be a bit
clearer.
-> > Howlin' Wolf developed his trademark howl as an attempt to imitate
-> > Jimmie Rodgers, an early country music artist.
->
-> Whhoooah! Told yer! Are we talking about the same Jimmie Ridgers here,
-> Howlin' 's (we used to be good friends you know) bears virtual no relation
-> to Rodgers yodelling, the howl came primarily from Howlin' 's major
-> influence Charley Patton (his expressive moans), now this is a common
You're right. Howlin' Wolf was influenced by Charlie Patton. He also
gave Jimmie Rodgers, the country singer as a major influence. I can cite
several references: see Peter Guralnick's _Lost Highway_ page 283, for instance.
-> feature of many negro artists of the time and is still found in tribal
-> music in the African West Coast. Also found in the Native American music,
Could you cite a reference? Native American music was vocal music long before
the arrival of Africans to this continent.
As I indicated in my earlier posting, Blues is derived from both European
and African sources. It's folly to think otherwise.
-> since these tribes mixed commonly with the negroes, this could possibly
-> explain the stylistic differences of their homelands.
->
-> Now Jimmie worked as a brakeman with hoboes and black men on the railroad.
-> Armstrong played on to me his most well known track "Blue Yodel".
-> He was the first known country artist to use the steel guitar, Hawaian guitar
-> (instruments derived from African sources and played traditionally by
-> blacks).
Get a clue. The Hawaiian guitar had nothing to do with African musicians
originally. The guitar was taken to Hawaii by the Spanish and Portugeese.
Native Hawaiians started playing it with a slide because it better fit
their musical models. Yes, African musicians played slide guitar and eventually,
because of a huge burst of popularity of Hawaiian music in the '20's and
'30's, were influenced by Hawaiian players.
-> Now he was a poor guitarist but great stylist who was heavily influenced by
-> black culture, though he had a great impact on the development of country
-> music.
-> Both blacks and whites played country and blues music in the 20's though it
-> was not that well documented, during the thirties the split began to occur.
-> YThis comes out of the fact that the Irish virtually brought country music
-> over to the New World wholesale, they were treated as outcasts so spent
much of
uh. Can you cite a reference? There's certainly some evidence that
traditional British Isles music to America and that in places it
contributed to the Country tradition, but to say " the Irish virtually
brought country music..." is hogwash. Country music was certainly
influenced by French and Acadian violin music. In the Southwest, it was
influenced strongly by the polka traditions of
Eastern Europe. Music is combinative in nature.
-> their time with the negroes, now music was important to both so they played
-> together. Hence they influenced each other's music. So blues and country
-> developed chiefly as we know it today alongside one another. Also many of the
-> cowhands were negroes.
Yeah, that's what I said.
->
-> >Chuck Berry, in his
-> > autobiography, discusses how he spent hours listening to Country Western
-> > music along side rnb and blues and how that influenced his song writing.
-> Well you've got a good point here, though all of Chuck's best stuff is him
-> basically playing Johnnie Johnson's piano rolls on the guitar.
-> His country influenced stuff, is either of a lower standard or not so well
-> known.
-> > The fact is that rock and roll grows out of black and white, rural and
-> > urban, raw and sophisticated roots.
-> >
->
-> Yes. But you assume country is *white* and blues is *black*
-> "Ain't necessarily so"
Nope. You assumed it. I never said and never implied it.
aric
Aric Rubin
-> Aric Rubin (a...@sirius.com) wrote:
-> : In article <3gs1hc$s...@baygull.rtd.com>, ha...@RTD.COM (Omar Hall) wrote:
->
->
-> : -> I was in a very heavily blues influenced white rock group recently
& they
-> : -> stated, "I thought about it & realized there hasn't been any black
-> : -> guitarists or vocalists fronting any rock & roll bands historically,
-> : -> except Jimi. That's bad since it came from blacks".
->
-> : Duh-oh! Let's see, we've got Booker T. and the MGs, (though Booker T.
-> : plays organ) we've got Otis Redding (doing covers of stones tunes, btw)
-> : we've got Arthur Lee (and love), we've got Robert Cray, we've got Sly and
-> : the Family Stone,
->
-> In addition, these groups you've listed are traditionally recognized as
-> R & B and blues, not Rock & Roll. If you go to a record store that still
-> catagorizes its music as rap, r&b, country, rock & roll, etc.
-> I'll guarantee you won't find the artists you listed in the rock & roll
-> bins next to Jimi Hendrix!
hmmmm. I don't know. I generally see Arthur Lee and Love in the Rock bins,
same with Sly. You're definitely right about the others.
-> Musically, I agree they do rock, but the music industry has used the term
-> Rock & Roll to segregate and discriminate, thus attempting to make Rock &
-> Roll a strictly white mans form of music.
I couldn't agree more.
-> Furthermore, that will be the day I hear Sly Stone, Otis Redding, Booker
-> T, etc songs frequently rotated on the local Rock & Roll radio station
-> here in Tucson, Arizona!
It does happen here. You can hear Otis, Sly and Booker T. in rotation with
Aerosmith or Sheryl Crow.
-> Rock stations I've listend to in Arizona & California have played all white
-> rock music on thier rock & roll radio stations during prime time. Maybe in
-> the late 80's & 90's some Tina Turner & Living Colour, but that's it! If
-> they do play any black rock it is on a sunday or on some late night blues
-> program.
I'd have to agree with this as a general reality. It's a bit better here
in SF, but only marginally. I'd point out however, that during the heyday
of free form FM radio in the late '60's and early '70's, anything went.
You'd here Howlin' Wolf, Chuck Berry, Sly, The Flamingos all intercut with
Country Joe and the Fish, the Airplane, Merle Haggard, etc.
It'd be great to see a return of that kind of programming. After all, it's only
music.
aric