I Finally Watched September Dawn
john p
reviews. Even the girl at the ticket stand said people were mostly
disappointed with it.
When we left, my wife and I were pleased we saw it. It deserved
better reviews. The language of it may have turned uniformed people
away from it, even though it was historically correct. They probably
should have paraphrased more than use the actual words of the mormon
perpetrators, then the modern audience may have not felt so
distanced. But the creators had a difficult task of presenting an
accurate portrayal of what happened there. Of course when you watch
it, if you decide to, remember it is a tragedy so don't expect a happy
ending. It isn't a feel good movie because it is like making a movie
about muslims flying planes into trade towers--it isn't the movie for
you if you want to escape or to distract you from the mundane.
The movie serves a good reminder to beware of religious fanaticism,
whether mormon, christian, or islam.
It is good, not Titanic good but good. I'd say four stars and worth
watching.
•R L Measures
<john....@gmail.com> wrote:
** but not good for TBMs. Did it show the Dunlap sisters getting their
throats cut with a Bowie knife?
Joker
"If there is a concealed blessing, it is that the film is so bad. Jon
Voight, that gifted and versatile actor, is here given the most
ludicrous and unplayable role of his career, and a goofy beard to boot.
Stamp, as Brigham Young, comes across as the kind of man you'd find at
the back of a cave in a Cormac McCarthy novel. The Christians are so
scrubbed and sunny, they could have been teleported in time from the
Lawrence Welk program.
And isn't it sickening that the plot stirs in some sugar by giving us
what can only be described as a horse whisperer? This movie needs human
whisperers. And giving us a romance between the bishop's son and a
pretty gentile girl? And another son of the bishop who dresses up like
an Indian and goes batty at the scent of blood? And real Native
Americans who assist the Mormons in their killing, no doubt thinking,
well, we can get around to the Mormons later? I am trying as hard as I
can to imagine the audience for this movie. Every time I make any
progress, it scares me."
http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070823/REVIEWS/70823001
--
Joker
"...God hath made me to laugh, so that all that hear will laugh with me."
Gen. 21:6
john p
>
> --
> Joker
>
> "...God hath made me to laugh, so that all that hear will laugh with me."
>
> Gen. 21:6
It is either a lie or ignorance to say the movie was that bad. They
movie was 100 times better than any mormon movie made by the church or
its advocates. Well perhaps with the exception of Other side of
Heaven-- it was well done.
If the acting seemed weird it was only because the movie stayed true
to the language of the perpetrators, which gave it a superficial
affect. It isn't the movie's representation that sucked but the
history that it represented that sucks.
The Poster Formerly Known as Craig Olson
Kyle Smith, New York Post:
"SEPTEMBER Dawn" succeeds completely at failure; the unified
incompetence of its writing, directing and acting suggest a man who
manages to be on fire and drowning at the same time, just as the bus
runs him over. I was baffled: Why does this film even exist? In the
last act came the answer: The 1857 massacre of settlers it depicts
happened on Sept. 11.
"So it's more Sept. 11 porn, about a wagon train of pioneers heading
for California but stopping in the Utah Territory for a rest. [...]
When the settlers started mumbling, "I have a bad feeling about this
place," I had a bad feeling that the screenwriters were so dumb they
didn't even know they were ripping off "Star Wars." Then various
characters experienced flashbacks by scrunching their foreheads while
scenes from bygone days were superimposed over their pensive faces, a
technique last used in Kodak commercials in 1977.
"Zero stars. You'll sleep through it."
•R L Measures
<john....@gmail.com> wrote:
€€ Indeed. The laugher about the Mountain Meadows Massacre is that by
claiming that the Prophet/Seer/Revelator of the one true church will never
lead the brethern astray, the organization created a delightsome Catch-22
trap for itself. IMO, the RCC did the same damn thing when they declared
that popes are infallible.
The Poster Formerly Known as Craig Olson
> In article <13dii0c...@news.supernews.com>, The Poster Formerly Known
> Bard, who probably got the idea from someone else..
>> Then various
>> characters experienced flashbacks by scrunching their foreheads while
>> scenes from bygone days were superimposed over their pensive faces, a
>> technique last used in Kodak commercials in 1977.
>>
>> "Zero stars. You'll sleep through it."
>
> Mountain Meadows Massacre, Mormonites would be virtually certain to find
> serious fault with it.
It seems, Rich, that to you everything needs to be filtered through
the lens of belief. September Dawn can't just be a bad movie,
criticism of it has to be re-interpreted based upon the your
interpretation of someone else's belief.
I think many things can be determined outside of that system.
September Dawn is (by most accounts) a very poorly produced film. Some
may like the message, and that may affect hoe they view the film. I
think an accurate portrayal of the MMM (as unlikely as there ever is
to be such a thing) should be interesting and informative. But it
likely wouldn't fit with anyone's preconceived perceptions of how it
ought to be done. Accuracy about historical events often falls short
of the myths and fables that have grown up to surround them.
But the quality of a film shouldn't be judged on whether I agree with
the message, it should be judged on how well it was crafted.
I happen to believe that _Eddie and the Cruisers_ is a far better film
than _Casablanca_, although both were based on a nostalgic sentimental
vision of how history could have been.
September Dawn, on the other hand, is likely to be as well remembered
as Savage Seven (which was probably about as well written, directed,
acted and produced but had better music).
Craig
John Manning
And it's unlikely that Roger Ebert is at all familiar with that history.
Does Roger Ebert do Joker's thinking for him too, like the LDS Church does?
John Manning
The MMM and its historical evidence speaks for itself and the character
of the early LDS Church. Contemporary attempts at minimizing official
LDS Church culpability also speak loudly of the current character of the
'one true church'. Not much seems to have changed at all in that regard.
Joker
Zero stars" says Jeffrey M. Anderson, Combustible Celluloid (24 August
2007). "If the Western genre is struggling, it's because of terrible
movies like this one."
Jack Matthews of the New York Daily News (24 August 2007)
writes,"...disturbingly awful... 'September Dawn,' written by an
evangelical Christian, may be the worst historical drama ever made."
Richard Nielson of The Arizona Republic (24 August 2007) writes,
"Mormons no doubt will feel personally attacked, and they should."
Brett Register of the Orlando Weekly (23 August 2007) writes, "The
jarring MTV-style filmmaking is so distracting and the 'messaging' so
unsubtle that after two long hours you find yourself leaving the theater
with a massive headache, wondering when you started to hate Mormons."
The film review Web site Rotten Tomatoes includes the following comments
by critics.
* [Director Cain] stops short of calling Osama bin Laden a Mormon
sympathizer, but maybe that'll be on the DVD. (Adam Graham,
Detroit News)
* September Dawn has the ham-fisted lyricism of political ads and
pharmaceutical commercials. (J. Hoberman, Village Voice)
* It's a toss-up as to whether September Dawn is more offensive as
history, as allegory or simply as lousy self-important filmmaking.
(Ken Hanke, Mountain Xpress)
* Cain has co-written and directed a film that only the most bigoted
of Mormon detractors could enjoy. Most viewers, if any are willing
to part with their money or time, will simply laugh derisively.
(Dan Lybarger, Efilmcritic.com)
* It has the chilling certitude of the self-righteous. (Roger Moore,
Orlando Sentinel)
* Forget Grindhouse. September Dawn is the year's first
honest-to-goodness exploitation flick. (Nick Schager, Slant
Magazine)
I'm sure there are plenty that think the movie is great since we all
have different tastes. I'm sure we'll be hearing about his film for the
whole three weeks it is in theaters.
Joker
Tee hee. That's like saying all your thinking has been done by all the
articles you post here.
john p
The politically correct are afraid to give good reviews to a movie
that offends mormons. With good reason since mormons spend a lot of
movies, and not just on monday evening. Just because the movie may be
offensive to mormons doesn't make it a bad show. I almost didn't
watch it because of all the slander against it but I found it to be a
worthwhile show. I feel it is a good show to warn people of religious
fanaticism of whatever religion.
John Manning
"Satan wins a great victory when he can get members of the church to
speak against their leaders and to do their own thinking. When our
leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan--it
is God's Plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe.
When they give directions, it should mark the end of controversy, God
works in no other way. To think otherwise, without immediate repentance,
may cost one his faith, may destroy his testimony, and leave him a
stranger to the kingdom of God."
Ward Teachers Message, Deseret News, Church Section p. 5, May 26, 1945
Also included in the Improvement Era, June 1945, page 354 (which was the
official LDS Church magazine before the Ensign)
Guy R. Briggs
> post_...@sbcglobal.net (Joker) wrote:
<snip>
>> * Cain has co-written and directed a film that only the
>> most bigoted of Mormon detractors could enjoy. ... (Dan
>> Lybarger, Efilmcritic.com)
<snip>
> ... I found it to be a worthwhile show.
>
'Nuff said.
bestRegards, Guy.
P.S. America has voted with its feet. September Dawn premiered at #21, behind
Death at a Funeral (in its 2nd week of release), Transformers (in its 7th
week of release), and Ratatouille (in its 8th week of release) - all three of
which cleared the $1 million mark for the weekend, while Dawn did not,
despite showing on 857 screens.
Source: http://www.variety.com/index.asp?layout=b_o_weekend&dept=Film
•R L Measures
• correct, and if it doesn't add up and match up with the historical
record, I don't believe.
>September Dawn can't just be a bad movie,
> criticism of it has to be re-interpreted based upon the your
> interpretation of someone else's belief.
• A bad documentary is one that deviates from the historical record.
>
> I think many things can be determined outside of that system.
> September Dawn is (by most accounts) a very poorly produced film. Some
> may like the message, and that may affect hoe they view the film. I
> think an accurate portrayal of the MMM (as unlikely as there ever is
> to be such a thing) should be interesting and informative. But it
> likely wouldn't fit with anyone's preconceived perceptions of how it
> ought to be done. Accuracy about historical events often falls short
> of the myths and fables that have grown up to surround them.
>
> But the quality of a film shouldn't be judged on whether I agree with
> the message, it should be judged on how well it was crafted.
• would you thumbs up a docudrama that was well acted, well directed,
well produce, but somewhat less than truthful ?
>
> I happen to believe that _Eddie and the Cruisers_ is a far better film
> than _Casablanca_, although both were based on a nostalgic sentimental
> vision of how history could have been.
>
> September Dawn, on the other hand, is likely to be as well remembered
> as Savage Seven (which was probably about as well written, directed,
> acted and produced but had better music).
• Cutting the Dunlap sisters' throats with a Bowie Knife is undoubtedly
savage, Craig.
•R L Measures
<jrob...@terra.com.br> wrote:
• Some men tell the truth and some men do not.
John Manning
It's expected that Mormon apologists would attack a film that portrays
actual murders that were committed by Mormons.
"Everything may be sacrificed..."
"My duty as a member of the Council of the Twelve is to protect what is
most unique about the LDS church, namely the authority of priesthood,
testimony regarding the restoration of the gospel, and the divine
mission of the Savior.
Everything may be sacrificed in order to maintain the integrity of
those essential facts.
Thus, if Mormon Enigma reveals information that is detrimental to the
reputation of Joseph, then it is necessary to try to limit its influence
and that of its authors."
~~ Apostle Dallin Oaks, footnote 28, Inside the Mind of Joseph Smith:
Psychobiography and the Book of Mormon, Introduction p. xliii
•R L Measures
<net...@GeoCities.com> wrote:
> john....@gmail.com (john p) wrote:
> > post_...@sbcglobal.net (Joker) wrote:
>
>
> <snip>
>
> >> * Cain has co-written and directed a film that only the
> >> most bigoted of Mormon detractors could enjoy. ... (Dan
> >> Lybarger, Efilmcritic.com)
>
> <snip>
>
> > ... I found it to be a worthwhile show.
> >
> 'Nuff said.
>
>
> bestRegards, Guy.
>
> P.S. America has voted with its feet. September Dawn premiered at #21, behind
> Death at a Funeral (in its 2nd week of release), ...
• does that mean the Massacre won't even be brought up on Judgement Day?
John Manning
John Manning
LOL!
David Bowie
> P.S. America has voted with its feet. September Dawn premiered at #21, behind
> Death at a Funeral (in its 2nd week of release), Transformers (in its 7th
> week of release), and Ratatouille (in its 8th week of release) - all three of
> which cleared the $1 million mark for the weekend, while Dawn did not,
> despite showing on 857 screens.
> Source: http://www.variety.com/index.asp?layout=b_o_weekend&dept=Film
Even more amazingly, it was #65 in box office receipts per screen,
clearing just over $1k per. That, along with less than $1M total box
office--can you say "flop"? Good, i knew you could.
David, who lives near Mr. Rogers's alma mater
--
David Bowie University of Central Florida
Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.
David Bowie
<snip>
> The film review Web site Rotten Tomatoes includes the following comments
> by critics.
Scanning the Rotten Tomatoes aggregate of reviews, i was struck by how
often the adjective "ham-fisted" was used.
<snip>
David, who likes country ham better than sweet ham
Guy R. Briggs
> net...@GeoCities.com (Guy R. Briggs) wrote:
>> john....@gmail.com (john p) wrote:
>>> post_...@sbcglobal.net (Joker) wrote:
<snip>
> It's expected that Mormon apologists would attack a film
> that portrays actual murders that were committed by
> Mormons.
>
We didn't have to do anything, except sit back and watch the implosion.
Haven't seen the movie, do not intend to - I do not believe there is one
chance in a thousand that an Evangelical Christian could accurately portray
what happened. I can, however, post statistics from the foremost industry
trade publication.
The film is a floperoo.
bestRegards, Guy.
Guy R. Briggs
> net...@GeoCities.com (Guy R. Briggs) wrote:
>> john....@gmail.com (john p) wrote:
>>> post_...@sbcglobal.net (Joker) wrote:
<snip>
>> P.S. America has voted with its feet. September Dawn
>> premiered at #21, behind Death at a Funeral (in its 2nd
>> week of release), ...
>
> • does that mean the Massacre won't even be brought up on
> Judgement Day?
>
Of course it will! As will any sin that has not been repented of.
Question is, will September Dawn be brought up?
bestRegards, guy.
John Manning
Guy Briggs, if you'll notice, isn't just "sitting back." It's expected
Guy R. Briggs
> net...@GeoCities.com (Guy R. Briggs) wrote:
<snip>
>> The film is a floperoo.
>
> Guy Briggs, if you'll notice, isn't just "sitting back."
>
Don't kill me, I'm only the messenger!
bestRegards, Guy.
John Manning
Like hell you're "only the messenger."
>
>
> bestRegards, Guy.
•R L Measures
<jrob...@terra.com.br> wrote:
> •R L Measures wrote:
> > In article <D_WdnSiAP5-97kTb...@giganews.com>, John Manning
> > <jrob...@terra.com.br> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>The Poster Formerly Known as Craig Olson wrote:
> >>
> >>>•R L Measures wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>I...
• "It does not matter that the criticism is true ."
-- LDS "Apostle" Dallin H. Oaks
•R L Measures
<net...@GeoCities.com> wrote:
• "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."
- William Shakespeare (Hamlet)
•R L Measures
<net...@GeoCities.com> wrote:
> r...@somis.org (•R L Measures) wrote:
> > net...@GeoCities.com (Guy R. Briggs) wrote:
> >> john....@gmail.com (john p) wrote:
> >>> post_...@sbcglobal.net (Joker) wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >> P.S. America has voted with its feet. September Dawn
> >> premiered at #21, behind Death at a Funeral (in its 2nd
> >> week of release), ...
> >
> > • does that mean the Massacre won't even be brought up on
> > Judgement Day?
> >
> Of course it will! As will any sin that has not been repented of.
• So if Brigham repents in the last minute, God will skip right over
9-11-1857 on Judgement Day ?
> ...
Guy R. Briggs
>>> net...@GeoCities.com wrote:
>>>> john....@gmail.com (john p) wrote:
>>>>> post_...@sbcglobal.net (Joker) wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>> P.S. America has voted with its feet. September Dawn
>>>> premiered at #21, behind Death at a Funeral (in its 2nd
>>>> week of release), ...
>>>
>>> • does that mean the Massacre won't even be brought up on
>>> Judgement Day?
>>
>> Of course it will! As will any sin that has not been repented of.
>
> • So if Brigham repents in the last minute, God will skip
> right over 9-11-1857 on Judgement Day ?
>
tense is wrong - it should read "... repented last minute ...".
Second, we do not believe deathbed repentence is effective, so if he
waited that long it wouldn't make any difference.
Last, but certainly not least, court is still out on how much Bro.
Brigham had to do with the massacre, if anything. You've got to actually
do something wrong before you need to repent.
bestRegards, Guy.
Guy R. Briggs
> net...@GeoCities.com (Guy R. Briggs) wrote:
<snip>
>>>> The film is a floperoo.
>>>
>>> Guy Briggs, if you'll notice, isn't just "sitting back."
>>
>> Don't kill me, I'm only the messenger!
>
> Like hell you're "only the messenger."
>
I don't work for Variety or any affiliated company. I merely reported
the receipts from last weekend. I am the messenger.
bestRegards, Guy.
The Poster Formerly Known as Craig Olson
That wasn't the lens to which I referred.
>> September Dawn can't just be a bad movie,
>> criticism of it has to be re-interpreted based upon the your
>> interpretation of someone else's belief.
>
> • A bad documentary is one that deviates from the historical record.
>> I think many things can be determined outside of that system.
>> September Dawn is (by most accounts) a very poorly produced film. Some
>> may like the message, and that may affect hoe they view the film. I
>> think an accurate portrayal of the MMM (as unlikely as there ever is
>> to be such a thing) should be interesting and informative. But it
>> likely wouldn't fit with anyone's preconceived perceptions of how it
>> ought to be done. Accuracy about historical events often falls short
>> of the myths and fables that have grown up to surround them.
>>
>> But the quality of a film shouldn't be judged on whether I agree with
>> the message, it should be judged on how well it was crafted.
>
> • would you thumbs up a docudrama that was well acted, well directed,
> well produce, but somewhat less than truthful ?
You're kidding, right? How "truthful" is it reasonable to expect
entertainment to be? A docudrama is an opinion about how to portray
historical events. By definition, it is going to omit details,
fabricate dialog and in general get stuff wrong. It is therefore less
than truthful. Well acted, well directed and well produced films are
expected to be better than the opposite. Not always true, however.
>> I happen to believe that _Eddie and the Cruisers_ is a far better film
>> than _Casablanca_, although both were based on a nostalgic sentimental
>> vision of how history could have been.
>>
>> September Dawn, on the other hand, is likely to be as well remembered
>> as Savage Seven (which was probably about as well written, directed,
>> acted and produced but had better music).
>
> • Cutting the Dunlap sisters' throats with a Bowie Knife is undoubtedly
> savage, Craig.
Obviously, you are unfamiliar with the Savage Seven. The parallels
should have been obvious.
David Bowie
That's right! If Guy hadn't been posting on ARM, where his posts get
seen by some scores, maybe even hundreds, of people, *millions* would
have paid their money to go see September Dawn!
David, wondering where JM's grip is
Guy R. Briggs
> John Manning wrote:
>> Guy R. Briggs wrote:
>>> jrob...@terra.com.br (John Manning) wrote:
>>>> net...@GeoCities.com (Guy R. Briggs) wrote:
>
>>>>> The film is a floperoo.
>
>>>> Guy Briggs, if you'll notice, isn't just "sitting back."
>
>>> Don't kill me, I'm only the messenger!
>
>> Like hell you're "only the messenger."
>
> That's right! If Guy hadn't been posting on ARM, where his posts get
> seen by some scores, maybe even hundreds, of people, *millions* would
> have paid their money to go see September Dawn!
>
> David, wondering where JM's grip is
>
bestRegards, Guy
•R L Measures
<jrob...@terra.com.br> wrote:
> Guy R. Briggs wrote:
> > john....@gmail.com (john p) wrote:
> >
> >>post_...@sbcglobal.net (Joker) wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >>> * Cain has co-written and directed a film that only the
> >>> most bigoted of Mormon detractors could enjoy. ... (Dan
> >>> Lybarger, Efilmcritic.com)
> >
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >>... I found it to be a worthwhile show.
> >>
> >
> > 'Nuff said.
> >
> >
> > bestRegards, Guy.
> >
> > P.S. America has voted with its feet. September Dawn premiered at #21,
behind
> > Death at a Funeral (in its 2nd week of release), Transformers (in its 7th
> > week of release), and Ratatouille (in its 8th week of release) - all
three of
> > which cleared the $1 million mark for the weekend, while Dawn did not,
> > despite showing on 857 screens.
> >
> > Source: http://www.variety.com/index.asp?layout=b_o_weekend&dept=Film
>
>
> It's expected that Mormon apologists would attack a film that portrays
> actual murders that were committed by Mormons.
>
>
> "Everything may be sacrificed..."
• Indeed, John, even the truth.
"It does not matter that the criticism is true ."
-- LDS "Apostle" Dallin H. Oaks
>
•R L Measures
<jrob...@terra.com.br> wrote:
• Methinks the message is: beware of organized religions that order
members to let the leaders do their thinking for them.
•R L Measures
<net...@GeoCities.com> wrote:
> r...@somis.org (•R L Measures) wrote:
> > net...@GeoCities.com (Guy R. Briggs) wrote:
> >> r...@somis.org wrote:
> >>> net...@GeoCities.com wrote:
> >>>> john....@gmail.com (john p) wrote:
> >>>>> post_...@sbcglobal.net (Joker) wrote:
> >>
> >> <snip>
> >>
> >>>> P.S. America has voted with its feet. September Dawn
> >>>> premiered at #21, behind Death at a Funeral (in its 2nd
> >>>> week of release), ...
> >>>
> >>> • does that mean the Massacre won't even be brought up on
> >>> Judgement Day?
> >>
> >> Of course it will! As will any sin that has not been repented of.
> >
> > • So if Brigham repents in the last minute, God will skip
> > right over 9-11-1857 on Judgement Day ?
> >
> First, Bro. Brigham has been dead and gone for some time now, so the
> tense is wrong - it should read "... repented last minute ...".
• Would not God allow a post-mortem, last-minute, one time only,
pre-Judgement last chance for a repent by Brother Brigham ?
>
> Second, we do not believe deathbed repentence is effective, so if he
> waited that long it wouldn't make any difference.
• Not deathbed, pre-Judgement. Afterall, Guy, Brigham did have 55-wives,
so he might have been just too Busy to do a repent.
>
> Last, but certainly not least, court is still out on how much Bro.
> Brigham had to do with the massacre, if anything. You've got to actually
> do something wrong before you need to repent.
• The way the LdS church is run, the number of leaders who could have
ordered such a massacre is one.
Some guys two worst enemies are their short fuse and their lust for dominion.
•R L Measures
•R L Measures
• No
> How "truthful" is it reasonable to expect
> entertainment to be? A docudrama is an opinion about how to portray
> historical events. By definition, it is going to omit details,
> fabricate dialog and in general get stuff wrong.
• You know ir's wrong because --- ?
>It is therefore less
> than truthful. Well acted, well directed and well produced films are
> expected to be better than the opposite. Not always true, however.
• Without a videotape of the massacre, one has no choice but to stich
together what is known.
>
> >> I happen to believe that _Eddie and the Cruisers_ is a far better film
> >> than _Casablanca_, although both were based on a nostalgic sentimental
> >> vision of how history could have been.
> >>
> >> September Dawn, on the other hand, is likely to be as well remembered
> >> as Savage Seven (which was probably about as well written, directed,
> >> acted and produced but had better music).
> >
> > • Cutting the Dunlap sisters' throats with a Bowie Knife is undoubtedly
> > savage, Craig.
>
> Obviously, you are unfamiliar with the Savage Seven. The parallels
> should have been obvious.
• I know the plot. It's fictional. The Mountain Meadows Massacre was not.
The Poster Formerly Known as Craig Olson
I have a question, then. How is Guy's posting of comments critical of
the film different from, say, john p's posting of comments in praise
of the same film?
The Poster Formerly Known as Craig Olson
I know what's wrong? You posited a question about "a" docudrama. I
replied that for some pretty obvious reasons, odds are any docudrama
is not 100% accurate. I said that it will get "stuff" wrong. Are you,
instead, choosing the side that all aspects of any docudrama are right?
I know stuff is wrong because and docudrama will fail present all
sides, all facts, all details accurately. That's my basic definition
of getting stuff wrong. Do you have another?
Are you taking the position that September Dawn is a docudrama?
>> It is therefore less
>> than truthful. Well acted, well directed and well produced films are
>> expected to be better than the opposite. Not always true, however.
>
> • Without a videotape of the massacre, one has no choice but to stich
> together what is known.
Yes, which makes the stitch-work fiction. Amusing, terrifying,
entertaining, and/or enlightening, perhaps, but still fiction.
>>>> I happen to believe that _Eddie and the Cruisers_ is a far better film
>>>> than _Casablanca_, although both were based on a nostalgic sentimental
>>>> vision of how history could have been.
>>>>
>>>> September Dawn, on the other hand, is likely to be as well remembered
>>>> as Savage Seven (which was probably about as well written, directed,
>>>> acted and produced but had better music).
>>> • Cutting the Dunlap sisters' throats with a Bowie Knife is undoubtedly
>>> savage, Craig.
>> Obviously, you are unfamiliar with the Savage Seven. The parallels
>> should have been obvious.
>
> • I know the plot. It's fictional. The Mountain Meadows Massacre was not.
Yes, we get that the Mountain Meadows Massacre was a real event. Some
of us have known about it - and been appalled by - for more decades
than some posters around here have been alive. But I though we were
discussing movies.
I still think the plot of Savage Seven and September Dawn have enough
similarities to make a comparison rather meaningful. And Savage Seven
does have better music.
John Manning
... for your 'one true church', yes.
>
> bestRegards, Guy.
•R L Measures
as Craig Olson <cr...@olsonBLOCKhome.com> wrote:
• good point. And besides that, Guy is just following orders.
John Manning
> John Manning wrote:
>
>> Guy R. Briggs wrote:
>>
>>> jrob...@terra.com.br (John Manning) wrote:
>>>
>>>> net...@GeoCities.com (Guy R. Briggs) wrote:
>
>
>>>>> The film is a floperoo.
>
>
>>>> Guy Briggs, if you'll notice, isn't just "sitting back."
>
>
>>> Don't kill me, I'm only the messenger!
>
>
>> Like hell you're "only the messenger."
>
>
> That's right! If Guy hadn't been posting on ARM, where his posts get
> seen by some scores, maybe even hundreds, of people, *millions* would
> have paid their money to go see September Dawn!
Manning knows as well as Bowie what Guy's motivations are.
John Manning
Guy makes that case quite well by his example.
•R L Measures
> > • Without a videotape of the massacre, one has no choice but to stitch
> > together what is known.
>
> Yes, which makes the stitch-work fiction. Amusing, terrifying,
> entertaining, and/or enlightening, perhaps, but still fiction.
• So the recent movie "Flight 93" was still fiction ?
>
> >>...
> > • I know the plot. It's fictional. The Mountain Meadows Massacre was not.
>
> Yes, we get that the Mountain Meadows Massacre was a real event. Some
> of us have known about it - and been appalled by - for more decades
> than some posters around here have been alive. But I though we were
> discussing movies.
• I was under the impression that a movie had been made about 9-11-1857.
>
> I still think the plot of Savage Seven and September Dawn have enough
> similarities to make a comparison rather meaningful. And Savage Seven
> does have better music.
• the tapdance
John Manning
Degree of attempt to make their point.
john p
> The Poster Formerly Known as Craig Olson wrote:
>
>
>
> > John Manning wrote:
>
> >> Guy R. Briggs wrote:
>
>
> >>>> netz...@GeoCities.com (Guy R. Briggs) wrote:
>
> >>>>> john.ph...@gmail.com (john p) wrote:
>
> >>>>>> post_mas...@sbcglobal.net (Joker) wrote:
>
> >>> <snip>
>
> >>>> It's expected that Mormon apologists would attack a film
> >>>> that portrays actual murders that were committed by
> >>>> Mormons.
>
> >>> We didn't have to do anything, except sit back and watch the
> >>> implosion.
>
> >>> Haven't seen the movie, do not intend to - I do not believe there
> >>> is one chance in a thousand that an Evangelical Christian could
> >>> accurately portray what happened. I can, however, post statistics
> >>> from the foremost industry trade publication.
>
> >>> The film is a floperoo.
>
> >>> bestRegards, Guy.
>
> >> Guy Briggs, if you'll notice, isn't just "sitting back." It's expected
> >> that Mormon apologists would attack a film that portrays actual
> >> murders that were committed by Mormons.
>
> > I have a question, then. How is Guy's posting of comments critical of
> > the film different from, say, john p's posting of comments in praise of
> > the same film?
>
> Degree of attempt to make their point.
And John P has watched the movie.
john p
<cr...@olsonBLOCKhome.com> wrote:
> John Manning wrote:
> > Guy R. Briggs wrote:
>
> >>> netz...@GeoCities.com (Guy R. Briggs) wrote:
>
> >>>> john.ph...@gmail.com (john p) wrote:
>
>
> >> <snip>
>
> >>> It's expected that Mormon apologists would attack a film
> >>> that portrays actual murders that were committed by
> >>> Mormons.
>
> >> We didn't have to do anything, except sit back and watch the
> >> implosion.
>
> >> Haven't seen the movie, do not intend to - I do not believe there
> >> is one chance in a thousand that an Evangelical Christian could
> >> accurately portray what happened. I can, however, post statistics from
> >> the foremost industry trade publication.
>
> >> The film is a floperoo.
>
> >> bestRegards, Guy.
>
> > Guy Briggs, if you'll notice, isn't just "sitting back." It's expected
> > that Mormon apologists would attack a film that portrays actual murders
> > that were committed by Mormons.
>
> I have a question, then. How is Guy's posting of comments critical of
> the film different from, say, john p's posting of comments in praise
> of the same film?
For one I watched the movie. And I was really expecting to not like
the movie based on reviews. There is also a good reason for me to not
like th emovie if is sucked. I would be angry at the movie makers if
they had a chance to reveal such a horrific tragedy, and if they did
as bad as the reviews say, then I would be upset. But I watched it
any way, and the reviews were wrong, probably just being politically
correct.
David Bowie
And that motivation would be raising points that don't get substantively
countered? Thought so.
David, glad to finally know his own motivation
David Bowie
> Craig Olson <cr...@olsonBLOCKhome.com> wrote:
>> •R L Measures wrote:
<snip>
>>> • Without a videotape of the massacre, one has no choice but to stitch
>>> together what is known.
>> Yes, which makes the stitch-work fiction. Amusing, terrifying,
>> entertaining, and/or enlightening, perhaps, but still fiction.
> • So the recent movie "Flight 93" was still fiction ?
Yes. Certainly based in great part upon documented fact, but still at
least in part fiction.
<snip>
David, who knows there's no bright line between fiction and non-fiction
John Manning
> John Manning wrote:
>
>> David Bowie wrote:
>>
>>> John Manning wrote:
>>>
>>>> Guy R. Briggs wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> jrob...@terra.com.br (John Manning) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> net...@GeoCities.com (Guy R. Briggs) wrote:
>
>
>>>>>>> The film is a floperoo.
>
>
>>>>>> Guy Briggs, if you'll notice, isn't just "sitting back."
>
>
>>>>> Don't kill me, I'm only the messenger!
>
>
>>>> Like hell you're "only the messenger."
>
>
>>> That's right! If Guy hadn't been posting on ARM, where his posts get
>>> seen by some scores, maybe even hundreds, of people, *millions* would
>>> have paid their money to go see September Dawn!
>
>
>> Manning knows as well as Bowie what Guy's motivations are.
>
>
> And that motivation would be raising points that don't get substantively
> countered? Thought so.
No. That motivation would be and is apologia for the LDS Church. In this
instance it's murders committed in 1857.
john p
<snip>
>
> David, who knows there's no bright line between fiction and non-fiction
>
Basing your beliefs on the fictitious Book of Mormon as if it were
true is enough to blur the line.
Guy R. Briggs
> net...@GeoCities.com (Guy R. Briggs) wrote:
>> r...@somis.org wrote:
>>> net...@GeoCities.com wrote:
>>>> r...@somis.org wrote:
>>>>> net...@GeoCities.com wrote:
>>>>>> john....@gmail.com (john p) wrote:
>>>>>>> post_...@sbcglobal.net (Joker) wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>>>> P.S. America has voted with its feet. September Dawn
>>>>>> premiered at #21, behind Death at a Funeral (in its 2nd
>>>>>> week of release), ...
>>>>>
>>>>> • does that mean the Massacre won't even be brought up on
>>>>> Judgement Day?
>>>>
>>>> Of course it will! As will any sin that has not been repented of.
>>>
>>> • So if Brigham repents in the last minute, God will skip
>>> right over 9-11-1857 on Judgement Day ?
>>
>> First, Bro. Brigham has been dead and gone for some time
>> now, so the tense is wrong - it should read "... repented
>> last minute ...".
>
> • Would not God allow a post-mortem, last-minute, one time
> only, pre-Judgement last chance for a repent by Brother
> Brigham ?
>
asking again. If my answer isn't good enough for you, why not ask Gos His
ownself?
>>
>> Second, we do not believe deathbed repentence is
>> effective, so if he waited that long it wouldn't make any
>> difference.
>
> • Not deathbed, pre-Judgement. Afterall, Guy, Brigham did
> have 55-wives, so he might have been just too Busy to do a
> repent.
>
"For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare
to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the
day for men to perform their labors."
-- Alma 34:32
>>
>> Last, but certainly not least, court is still out on how
>> much Bro. Brigham had to do with the massacre, if anything.
>> You've got to actually do something wrong before you need
>> to repent.
>
> • The way the LdS church is run, the number of leaders who
> could have ordered such a massacre is one.
>
You assume that it was ordered. Or, that the orders weren't
misinterpreted.
bestRegards, Guy.
Guy R. Briggs
> net...@GOCities.com (Guy R. Briggs) wrote:
<snip>
>>>> Don't kill me, I'm only the messenger!
>>>
>>> Like hell you're "only the messenger."
>>
>> I don't work for Variety or any affiliated company. I
>> merely reported the receipts from last weekend. I am the
>> messenger.
>
> ... for your 'one true church', yes.
>
Congrats. On sucessive posts you've claimed I'm not the messenger, and I
John Manning
Not true. I said you were not "only" the messenger.
> and I
> am the messenger.
Yes, as an apologist for the 'one true church' which has been implicated
in a mass murder. You act as if the quality of the film, which you
proclaim with much ado is a "floperoo" somehow exonerates Mormons from
murder.
>
>
> bestRegards, Guy.
•R L Measures
<jrob...@terra.com.br> wrote:
• Guy has probably paid in too much to be able to see reality.
•R L Measures
<db....@pmpkn.net> wrote:
> •R L Measures wrote:
> > Craig Olson <cr...@olsonBLOCKhome.com> wrote:
> >> •R L Measures wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >>> • Without a videotape of the massacre, one has no choice but to stitch
> >>> together what is known.
>
> >> Yes, which makes the stitch-work fiction. Amusing, terrifying,
> >> entertaining, and/or enlightening, perhaps, but still fiction.
>
> > • So the recent movie "Flight 93" was still fiction ?
>
> Yes. Certainly based in great part upon documented fact, but still at
> least in part fiction.
>
> <snip>
>
> David, who knows there's no bright line between fiction and non-fiction
• So there's fiction in the movies the LdS church produced about Prophet
Smith ?
•R L Measures
•R L Measures
<net...@GeoCities.com> wrote:
chortle
>
> >>
> >> Second, we do not believe deathbed repentence is
> >> effective, so if he waited that long it wouldn't make any
> >> difference.
> >
> > • Not deathbed, pre-Judgement. Afterall, Guy, Brigham did
> > have 55-wives, so he might have been just too Busy to do a
> > repent.
> >
> "For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare
> to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the
> day for men to perform their labors."
> -- Alma 34:32
>
> >>
> >> Last, but certainly not least, court is still out on how
> >> much Bro. Brigham had to do with the massacre, if anything.
> >> You've got to actually do something wrong before you need
> >> to repent.
> >
> > • The way the LdS church is run, the number of leaders who
> > could have ordered such a massacre is one.
> >
> You assume that it was ordered. Or, that the orders weren't
> misinterpreted.
>
• Such as he ordered them to lay the women and they thought he said slay
the women - or something like that ?
•R L Measures
<net...@GeoCities.com> wrote:
• as well as the poster boy, Guy.
•R L Measures
David Bowie
> • So there's fiction in the movies the LdS church produced about Prophet
> Smith ?
Yes. And?
David, thinking of throwing corn in the air
Guy R. Briggs
>>> net...@GeoCities.com wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>>>> Don't kill me, I'm only the messenger!
>>>>>
>>>>> Like hell you're "only the messenger."
>>>>
>>>> I don't work for Variety or any affiliated company. I
>>>> merely reported the receipts from last weekend. I am the
>>>> messenger.
>>>
>>> ... for your 'one true church', yes.
>>
>> Congrats. On sucessive posts you've claimed I'm not the
>
> Not true. I said you were not "only" the messenger.
>
of the doubt.
So what was the message? That the film had done poorly on its opening
weekend. Using, as source, the Variety Magazine website. I'll tell you
what, John: I work in Southern California. Among my clients are producers,
writers and even an actor. (Guy Briggs: Personal Nerd to the Stars!) I can
assure you that, in this day and age, any film which does not clear $1
million, its opening weekend, is a flop, plain and simple.
Here's what it looks like to me. You guys were all hoping that this
movie would be a wonderful success, everybody would see what terrible
people we are, leave the Church in droves, spit on every missionary they
see, bankrupt Utah, etc., etc., etc..
But unfortunately, the movie is a stinker. Which means, at best, hardly
anyone will get the hoped-for message, and at worst, it will take away
legitimacy from the anti-Mormon wehrmacht.
No wonder there's so much whining from your side of the aisle!
bestRegards, Guy (whose missionary daughter was spit on, in Orange county,
a couple of weeks ago)
John Manning
The quality of the movie has nothing to do with the mass murder
committed by members of the 'one true church, i.e. Mormons. You know
that peaceable, loving persecuted Christian group of mass murderers.
> bestRegards, Guy (whose missionary daughter was spit on, in Orange county,
> a couple of weeks ago)
Who did she insult?
•R L Measures
<db....@pmpkn.net> wrote:
> •R L Measures wrote:
>
> > • So there's fiction in the movies the LdS church produced about Prophet
> > Smith ?
>
> Yes. And?
>
• how much fiction is there in the movies about the adventures of
"prophet" Smith ??
•R L Measures
<net...@GeoCities.com> wrote:
• Who spat ? Any indications why ?
Joker
> Joker wrote:
>>> Does Roger Ebert do Joker's thinking for him too, like the LDS Church
>>> does?
>>
>>
>> Tee hee. That's like saying all your thinking has been done by all
>> the articles you post here.
>
>
> "Satan wins a great victory when he can get members of the church to
> speak against their leaders and to do their own thinking. When our
> leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan--it
> is God's Plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe.
> When they give directions, it should mark the end of controversy, God
> works in no other way. To think otherwise, without immediate repentance,
> may cost one his faith, may destroy his testimony, and leave him a
> stranger to the kingdom of God."
>
> Ward Teachers Message, Deseret News, Church Section p. 5, May 26, 1945
> Also included in the Improvement Era, June 1945, page 354 (which was the
> official LDS Church magazine before the Ensign)
>
"What a pity it would be, if we were led by one man to utter
destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people
have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for
themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle
down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny
in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself
would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken the
influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for
themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right
way. Let every man and woman know, themselves, whether their leaders are
walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my
exhortation continually." (Brigham Young - JD 9:150)
John Manning
Too bad it doesn't happen that way, Joker. The 'one true church' does
NOT allow dissent.
Guy R. Briggs
> net...@GeoCities.com (Guy R. Briggs) wrote:
<snip>
>> whose missionary daughter was spit on, in Orange
>> county, a couple of weeks ago)
>
> • Who spat ? Any indications why ?
>
From her weekly e-mail:
"Well, its typical to get yelled at and to have hands
thrown up before you and doors slammed, etc., etc.,
but this is the first official week that i've
actually been spit on! It really took me by surprise
more than anything. I'm actually very lucky to serve
out here in the melting pot of California where
people are for the most part quite kind and used to
many different people and different views and such.
So even if they may want nothing to do with you, or
even if they dont like you at all, they're usually
rather friendly about the way they reject you. But
hey, at least i can officially say that i've been
spit on. It was rather gross and quite unnerving...
but i know it wasnt about me and its nothing at all
compared to what ancient missionaries have gone
through. I pray that the guy finds peace though...
he seemed very sad inside. =( "
bestRegards, Guy (a bit less tolerant of CsOTMC since it happened)
•R L Measures
<jrob...@terra.com.br> wrote:
> Guy R. Briggs wrote:
> > jrob...@terra.com.br (John Manning) wrote:
> >
> >>net...@GeoCities.com (Guy R. Briggs) wrote:
> >>
> >>>jrob...@terra.com.br wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>net...@GeoCities.com wrote:
> >>>
> >>><snip>
> >>>
> >>>>>>>...
> > But unfortunately, the movie is a stinker. Which means, at best, hardly
> > anyone will get the hoped-for message, and at worst, it will take away
> > legitimacy from the anti-Mormon wehrmacht.
> >
> > No wonder there's so much whining from your side of the aisle!
>
>
> The quality of the movie has nothing to do with the mass murder
> committed by members of the 'one true church, i.e. Mormons. You know
> that peaceable, loving persecuted Christian group of mass murderers.
>
>
>
> > bestRegards, Guy (whose missionary daughter was spit on, in Orange county,
> > a couple of weeks ago)
>
>
> Who did she insult?
• Maybe they didn't like being told that their church is an abomination
in the eyes of God ?
Guy R. Briggs
> net...@GeoCities.com (Guy R. Briggs) wrote:
<snip>
> The quality of the movie has nothing to do with the mass
> murder committed by members of the 'one true church, i.e.
> Mormons.
>
Agreed. And nobody, least of all me, is trying to legitimize those
murders in any way. I'm on record for several years calling it the
blackest day in the history of the Church.
>
> You know that peaceable, loving persecuted Christian group
> of mass murderers.
>
You would categorize all 12 million of us by the actions of less than
a dozen fanatics, 150 years ago? That speaks volumes.
>>
>> bestRegards, Guy (whose missionary daughter was spit on, in Orange
>> county, a couple of weeks ago)
>
> Who did she insult?
>
In your eyes, t's always the Mormon's fault - no matter what - right?
bestRegards, Guy.
john p
> r...@somis.org (·R L Measures) wrote:
>
That sucks.
My step-brother, on his mission, was hospitalized by an angry inactive
mormon.
Guy R. Briggs
> jrob...@terra.com.br (John Manning) wrote:
>> net...@GeoCities.com (Guy R. Briggs) wrote:
<snip>
>> ... whose missionary daughter was spit on, in Orange
>> county, a couple of weeks ago)
>>
>> Who did she insult?
>
> • Maybe they didn't like being told that their church is
> an abomination in the eyes of God ?
>
Served as a full-time missionary for two years, don't recall telling
a single person that their church was an abomination. I do not think
that policy has changed, especially at initial contact.
Assuming, for the sake of argument, that my daughter led with that
premise. Are you saying that spitting is an appropriate response?
How would that be any different - in principle - than saying after
anti-Mormons had driven us out of several states, finally forcing us
outside the boundries of the US at the time, then a party of them,
bragging about having participated in the assasination of our prophet
and hailing from the state where one of our most beloved leaders had
/also/ recently been assasinated, after threatening to return with guns
and men and kill more of us - that a massacre is justified?
bestRegards, Guy.
Guy R. Briggs
> net...@GeoCities.com (Guy R. Briggs) wrote:
<snip>
>> "Well, its typical to get yelled at and to have hands
>> thrown up before you and doors slammed, etc., etc.,
>> but this is the first official week that i've
>> actually been spit on! It really took me by surprise
>> more than anything. I'm actually very lucky to serve
>> out here in the melting pot of California where
>> people are for the most part quite kind and used to
>> many different people and different views and such.
>> So even if they may want nothing to do with you, or
>> even if they dont like you at all, they're usually
>> rather friendly about the way they reject you. But
>> hey, at least i can officially say that i've been
>> spit on. It was rather gross and quite unnerving...
>> but i know it wasnt about me and its nothing at all
>> compared to what ancient missionaries have gone
>> through. I pray that the guy finds peace though...
>> he seemed very sad inside. =( "
>>
>> bestRegards, Guy (a bit less tolerant of CsOTMC since it happened)
>
> That sucks.
>
Yes, it does. And thank you for the first appropriate response from
your side of the aisle. I apologize if my "less tolerant" has led me to
write anything too harsh, recently.
>
> My step-brother, on his mission, was hospitalized by an
> angry inactive mormon.
>
Sucks worse. Did he fully recover?
bestRegards, Guy.
John Manning
> jrob...@terra.com.br (John Manning) wrote:
>
>>net...@GeoCities.com (Guy R. Briggs) wrote:
>
>
> <snip>
>
>>The quality of the movie has nothing to do with the mass
>>murder committed by members of the 'one true church, i.e.
>>Mormons.
>>
>
> Agreed. And nobody, least of all me, is trying to legitimize those
> murders in any way. I'm on record for several years calling it the
> blackest day in the history of the Church.
>
>
>>You know that peaceable, loving persecuted Christian group
>>of mass murderers.
>>
>
> You would categorize all 12 million of us by the actions of less than
> a dozen fanatics, 150 years ago? That speaks volumes.
I was speaking of the bunch Latter Day Saints who viciously murdered the
women and children at Mountain Meadows in 1857.
>>>bestRegards, Guy (whose missionary daughter was spit on, in Orange
>>>county, a couple of weeks ago)
>>
>>Who did she insult?
>>
>
> In your eyes, t's always the Mormon's fault - no matter what - right?
Certainly not, Guy, but you act as if the abuses during Brigham's
'Reformation', the raiding and pillaging by the Danites, the secret
gruesome bloody death oaths sworn in the LDS Temple of the Lord, the
threats of blood-atonement, the institutionalized racism, the
disobedience of the banning of polygamy by the LDS First Presidency,
Joseph Smith Jr's lying about his illegal polygamous marriages, the
destruction of the Expositor and its printing press on the orders of
'prophet' Smith, the castrations of young men who wouldn't relinquish
their sweethearts to the old codger Mormon 'priests', the homosexual
purges at BYU... were either non-existent, or made up by anti-Mormons.
[BTW, that's just a starter list.]
>
>
> bestRegards, Guy.
John Manning
People don't get run out of town for being peaceable Christians, Guy.
The evidence is abundant that Smith and Young worked at establishing
their own theocratic rule over the territories they inhabited by use of
just about every means of coercion and intimidation they could get away
with. You either don't know your church's history very well, or you're a
fucking liar.
>
>
> bestRegards, Guy.
Bret Ripley
Olson wrote:
> John Manning wrote:
>> Guy R. Briggs wrote:
>>> jrob...@terra.com.br (John Manning) wrote:
>>>
>>>> net...@GeoCities.com (Guy R. Briggs) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> john....@gmail.com (john p) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> post_...@sbcglobal.net (Joker) wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> It's expected that Mormon apologists would attack a film
>>>> that portrays actual murders that were committed by
>>>> Mormons.
>>>>
>>>
>>> We didn't have to do anything, except sit back and watch the
>>> implosion.
>>>
>>> Haven't seen the movie, do not intend to - I do not believe there
>>> is one chance in a thousand that an Evangelical Christian could
>>> accurately portray what happened. I can, however, post statistics from
>>> the foremost industry trade publication.
>>>
>>> The film is a floperoo.
>>>
>>>
>>> bestRegards, Guy.
>>
>>
>> Guy Briggs, if you'll notice, isn't just "sitting back." It's expected
>> that Mormon apologists would attack a film that portrays actual murders
>> that were committed by Mormons.
>
> I have a question, then. How is Guy's posting of comments critical of
> the film different from, say, john p's posting of comments in praise
> of the same film?
How many critics does it take to negate the reviews of scores of
professional movie critics? It's a misleading question, of course.
But if you ask how many saints it takes: the answer's eleven.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bP21zUrMh7s
Boom chi-kah-chi Boom.
Bret
Guy R. Briggs
<snip>
> But if you ask how many saints it takes: the answer's eleven.
>
I'll wait for the MoTab rendition: Come, Come Ye Eleven Saints.
bestRegards, Guy.
•R L Measures
<net...@GeoCities.com> wrote:
> r...@somis.org (•R L Measures) wrote:
> > net...@GeoCities.com (Guy R. Briggs) wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >> whose missionary daughter was spit on, in Orange
> >> county, a couple of weeks ago)
> >
> > • Who spat ? Any indications why ?
> >
> From her weekly e-mail:
>
> "Well, its typical to get yelled at and to have hands
> thrown up before you and doors slammed, etc., etc.,
> but this is the first official week that i've
> actually been spit on!
• This has happened to me. When fresh, the stuff easily hand-washes out
with soap and water. It's no big deal, but for a TBM, the faithbuilding
nature of the experience would undoubtedly have appeal.
> It really took me by surprise
> more than anything. I'm actually very lucky to serve
> out here in the melting pot of California where
> people are for the most part quite kind and used to
> many different people and different views and such.
> So even if they may want nothing to do with you, or
> even if they dont like you at all, they're usually
> rather friendly about the way they reject you. But
> hey, at least i can officially say that i've been
> spit on. It was rather gross and quite unnerving...
> but i know it wasnt about me and its nothing at all
> compared to what ancient missionaries have gone
> through. I pray that the guy finds peace though...
> he seemed very sad inside. =( "
• maybe he did not like being told that his religion is an abomination in
the eyes of God ?
>
>
>
> bestRegards, Guy (a bit less tolerant of CsOTMC since it happened)
• I have never spit on LdS missionaries, yet they avoid my address like
the bubonic plague when they are trolling the neighborhood for dupes.
Guy R. Briggs
>>> net...@GeoCities.com wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>> whose missionary daughter was spit on, in Orange
>>>> county, a couple of weeks ago)
>>>
>>> • Who spat ? Any indications why ?
>>
>> From her weekly e-mail:
>>
>> "Well, its typical to get yelled at and to have hands
>> thrown up before you and doors slammed, etc., etc.,
>> but this is the first official week that i've
>> actually been spit on!
>
> • This has happened to me.
>
>
> When fresh, the stuff easily hand-washes out with soap and
> water.
>
True, but the smell can be nauseating until you get to soap and
water.
>
> It's no big deal, but for a TBM, the faithbuilding nature
> of the experience would undoubtedly have appeal.
>
"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and
persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil
against you falsely, for my sake.
"Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your
reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the
prophets which were before you."
-- Matthew 5:11-12
>>
>> It really took me by surprise more than anything. I'm
>> actually very lucky to serve out here in the melting
>> pot of California where people are for the most part
>> quite kind and used to many different people and
>> different views and such. So even if they may want
>> nothing to do with you, or even if they dont like you
>> at all, they're usually rather friendly about the way
>> they reject you. But hey, at least i can officially
>> say that i've been spit on. It was rather gross and
>> quite unnerving... but i know it wasnt about me and
>> its nothing at all compared to what ancient
>> missionaries have gone through. I pray that the guy
>> finds peace though... he seemed very sad inside. =( "
>
> • maybe he did not like being told that his religion is an
> abomination in the eyes of God ?
>
I sincerely doubt he was told anything of the sort.
>>
>> bestRegards, Guy (a bit less tolerant of CsOTMC since it happened)
>
> • I have never spit on LdS missionaries, yet they avoid
> my address like the bubonic plague when they are trolling
> the neighborhood for dupes.
>
There are worse things than being spit on.
bestRegards, Guy.
John Manning
Yeah, living under Brigham Young during the 'Reformation' pops into my
mind as being much worse.
>
>
> bestRegards, Guy.
Guy R. Briggs
> net...@GeoCities.com (Guy R. Briggs) wrote:
>> r...@somis.org (•R L Measures) wrote:
>>>> net...@GeoCities.com wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>> ... whose missionary daughter was spit on, in Orange
>>>> county, a couple of weeks ago)
>>>>
>>>> Who did she insult?
>>>
>>> • Maybe they didn't like being told that their church is
>>> an abomination in the eyes of God ?
>>
>> Served as a full-time missionary for two years, don't
>> recall telling a single person that their church was an
>> abomination. I do not think that policy has changed,
>> especially at initial contact.
>>
>> Assuming, for the sake of argument, that my daughter led
>> with that premise. Are you saying that spitting is an
>> appropriate response?
>
>>
>> How would that be any different - in principle - than
>> saying after anti-Mormons had driven us out of several
>> states, finally forcing us outside the boundries of the US
>> at the time, then a party of them, bragging about having
>> participated in the assasination of our prophet and
>> hailing from the state where one of our most beloved
>> leaders had /also/ recently been assasinated, after
>> threatening to return with guns and men and kill more of
>> us - that a massacre is justified?
>
> People don't get run out of town for being peaceable
> Christians, Guy.
>
You need to get out more. It has happened since there first started
to be Christians, and continues to this day.
>
> The evidence is abundant that Smith and Young worked at
> establishing their own theocratic rule over the territories
> they inhabited by use of just about every means of coercion
> and intimidation they could get away with. You either don't
> know your church's history very well, or you're a fucking
> liar.
>
I know my church's history quite well, thankyouverymuch. I'm familiar
with the sanitized version presented by the Church and I'm also familiar
with the blackened version presentied by our enemies. Unlike you, I
believe the truth lies somewhere between the two extremes.
bestRegards, Guy.
•R L Measures
<net...@GeoCities.com> wrote:
> r...@somis.org (•R L Measures) wrote:
> > net...@GeoCities.com (Guy R. Briggs) wrote:
> >> r...@somis.org wrote:
> >>> net...@GeoCities.com wrote:
> >>
> >> <snip>
> >>
> >>>> whose missionary daughter was spit on, in Orange
> >>>> county, a couple of weeks ago)
> >>>
> >>> • Who spat ? Any indications why ?
> >>
> >> From her weekly e-mail:
> >>
> >> "Well, its typical to get yelled at and to have hands
> >> thrown up before you and doors slammed, etc., etc.,
> >> but this is the first official week that i've
> >> actually been spit on!
> >
> > • This has happened to me.
> >
> Shocking.
>
• Not quite as shocking as the two death threats I've had from TBMs.
> >
> > When fresh, the stuff easily hand-washes out with soap and
> > water.
> >
> True, but the smell can be nauseating until you get to soap and
> water.
• nah.
>
> >
> > It's no big deal, but for a TBM, the faithbuilding nature
> > of the experience would undoubtedly have appeal.
> >
> "Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and
> persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil
> against you falsely, for my sake.
• You assume that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is as
the name claims.
>
> "Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your
> reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the
> prophets which were before you."
> -- Matthew 5:11-12
>
> >>
> >> It really took me by surprise more than anything. I'm
> >> actually very lucky to serve out here in the melting
> >> pot of California where people are for the most part
> >> quite kind and used to many different people and
> >> different views and such. So even if they may want
> >> nothing to do with you, or even if they dont like you
> >> at all, they're usually rather friendly about the way
> >> they reject you. But hey, at least i can officially
> >> say that i've been spit on. It was rather gross and
> >> quite unnerving... but i know it wasnt about me and
> >> its nothing at all compared to what ancient
> >> missionaries have gone through. I pray that the guy
> >> finds peace though... he seemed very sad inside. =( "
> >
> > • maybe he did not like being told that his religion is an
> > abomination in the eyes of God ?
> >
> I sincerely doubt he was told anything of the sort.
• If he knows much about Joseph Smith, Jr, he already knew.
>
> >>
> >> bestRegards, Guy (a bit less tolerant of CsOTMC since it happened)
> >
> > • I have never spit on LdS missionaries, yet they avoid
> > my address like the bubonic plague when they are trolling
> > the neighborhood for dupes.
> >
> There are worse things than being spit on.
>
• indeed. In my 6th grade class, one Robert Hamilton expelled a truly
remarkable flatulent that cleared the entire class including the teacher -
who exclaimed "where's everybody going" seconds before he too
expeditiously exited the room.
•R L Measures
<jrob...@terra.com.br> wrote:
> Guy R. Briggs wrote:
> > r...@somis.org (•R L Measures) wrote:
> >
> >>net...@GeoCities.com (Guy R. Briggs) wrote:
> >>
> >>>r...@somis.org wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>net...@GeoCities.com wrote:
> >>>
> >>><snip>
> >>>
> >>>>>whose missionary daughter was spit on, in Orange
> >>>>>county, a couple of weeks ago)
> >>>>
> >>>>• Who spat ? Any indications why ?
> >>>
> >>>...
> >>• maybe he did not like being told that his religion is an
> >>abomination in the eyes of God ?
> >>
> >
> > I sincerely doubt he was told anything of the sort.
> >
> >
> >>>bestRegards, Guy (a bit less tolerant of CsOTMC since it happened)
> >>
> >>• I have never spit on LdS missionaries, yet they avoid
> >>my address like the bubonic plague when they are trolling
> >>the neighborhood for dupes.
> >>
> >
> > There are worse things than being spit on.
>
>
> Yeah, living under Brigham Young during the 'Reformation' pops into my
> mind as being much worse.
>
• Hell hath no fury like that of a control-freak who can't get his way.
David Bowie
>>> • So there's fiction in the movies the LdS church produced about Prophet
>>> Smith ?
>> Yes. And?
> • how much fiction is there in the movies about the adventures of
> "prophet" Smith ??
It's a good question. However, in any movie dealing with historical
events, something either has to be cut or added to make it watchable.
David, noting that documentarists *have* to do this
David Bowie
> People don't get run out of town for being peaceable Christians, Guy...
Tell that to the 17th-century Mennonites.
Not necessarily the same case, but just to point out that your statement
overreaches.
<snip>
David, who almost did his dissertation on a related group
RetroProphet
says...
>
>•R L Measures wrote:
>> <db....@pmpkn.net> wrote:
>>> •R L Measures wrote:
>
>>>> • So there's fiction in the movies the LdS church produced about Prophet
>>>> Smith ?
>
>>> Yes. And?
>
>> • how much fiction is there in the movies about the adventures of
>> "prophet" Smith ??
>
>It's a good question. However, in any movie dealing with historical
>events, something either has to be cut or added to make it watchable.
>
>David, noting that documentarists *have* to do this
True documentary films about historical events
do not add facts that aren't facts or omit facts
that are facts, purely in the interest of watchability.
There is of course a fine line between a true documentary
and propaganda on complex subjects -- you can usually tell
the difference when you find yourself debating yourself on
what you think about what you have just seen, as opposed to
immediately agreeing with what has obviously been the film's
point of view. True documentaries on complex subjects are
not common.
Of course, neither "September Dawn" nor any film I've
ever seen about Joseph Smith are true documentaries.
•R L Measures
> •R L Measures wrote:
> > <db....@pmpkn.net> wrote:
> >> •R L Measures wrote:
>
> >>> • So there's fiction in the movies the LdS church produced about Prophet
> >>> Smith ?
>
> >> Yes. And?
>
> > • how much fiction is there in the movies about the adventures of
> > "prophet" Smith ??
>
> It's a good question. However, in any movie dealing with historical
> events, something either has to be cut or added to make it watchable.
• good point. Run away production cost is another factor.
>
> David, noting that documentarists *have* to do this
• Ken Burns seems to minimize this.
John Manning
> John Manning wrote:
>
>> People don't get run out of town for being peaceable Christians, Guy...
>
>
> Tell that to the 17th-century Mennonites.
>
> Not necessarily the same case, but just to point out that your statement
> overreaches.
Indeed. Not even similar. The evidence is abundant that Smith and Young
worked at establishing their own theocratic rule over the territories
they inhabited by use of just about every means of coercion and
intimidation they could get away with. You either don't know your
church's history very well, or you're a fucking liar.
>
•R L Measures
<jrob...@terra.com.br> wrote:
> David Bowie wrote:
> > John Manning wrote:
> >
> >> People don't get run out of town for being peaceable Christians, Guy...
> >
> >
> > Tell that to the 17th-century Mennonites.
> >
> > Not necessarily the same case, but just to point out that your statement
> > overreaches.
>
>
> Indeed. Not even similar. The evidence is abundant that Smith and Young
> worked at establishing their own theocratic rule over the territories
> they inhabited by use of just about every means of coercion and
> intimidation they could get away with. You either don't know your
> church's history very well, or you're a fucking liar.
>
• what does Bill Clinton have to do with this, John ?
John Manning
I don't know. But he must be to blame for all of it.
•R L Measures
<jrob...@terra.com.br> wrote:
• Goddamn stupid mother-daughter fucking Dems.
Guy R. Briggs
>>> net...@GeoCities.com wrote:
>>
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> The quality of the movie has nothing to do with the mass
>>> murder committed by members of the 'one true church, i.e.
>>> Mormons.
>>
>> Agreed. And nobody, least of all me, is trying to
>> legitimize those murders in any way. I'm on record for
>> several years calling it the blackest day in the history
>> of the Church.
>>
>>> You know that peaceable, loving persecuted Christian group
>>> of mass murderers.
>>
>> You would categorize all 12 million of us by the actions
>> of less than a dozen fanatics, 150 years ago? That speaks
>> volumes.
>
> I was speaking of the bunch Latter Day Saints who viciously
> murdered the women and children at Mountain Meadows in 1857.
>
people. Me included.
>>>>
>>>> bestRegards, Guy (whose missionary daughter was spit on,
>>>> in Orange county, a couple of weeks ago)
>>>
>>> Who did she insult?
>>
>> In your eyes, t's always the Mormon's fault - no matter
>> what - right?
>
> Certainly not, Guy, ...
>
Then why did you think it my daughter's fault for being spat upon?
>
> ... but you act as if the abuses during Brigham's
> 'Reformation', the raiding and pillaging by the Danites,
> the secret gruesome bloody death oaths sworn in the LDS
> Temple of the Lord, the threats of blood-atonement, the
> institutionalized racism, the disobedience of the banning
> of polygamy by the LDS First Presidency, Joseph Smith Jr's
> lying about his illegal polygamous marriages, the
> destruction of the Expositor and its printing press on the
> orders of 'prophet' Smith, the castrations of young men
> who wouldn't relinquish their sweethearts to the old codger
> Mormon 'priests', the homosexual purges at BYU... were
> either non-existent, or made up by anti-Mormons.
>
> [BTW, that's just a starter list.]
>
Undoubtedly. It would be a much shorter list, however, if you applied
the "really happened" filter insted of the "if it makes the Church look
bad it must be true" filter.
bestRegards, Guy.
John Manning
You're denying that what's in the list is true?
>
>
> bestRegards, Guy.
Guy R. Briggs
> net...@GeoCities.com (Guy R. Briggs) wrote:
>> jrob...@terra.com.br wrote:
<snip backpeddling from calling 12 million Mormons mass murders>
<snip non-response on how it was my daughter's fault she got spit on>
>>> ... but you act as if the abuses ...
Which alleged abuses have nothing to do with people spitting on
missionaries.
>>>
>>> ... during Brigham's 'Reformation', ...
>>>
>>> ... the raiding and pillaging by the Danites, ...
Responses, in kind, to the raiding and pillaging of non-Mormons who
didn't think Mormons should be allowed to settle in Missouri any where
except Caldwell County. It seems some uppity Mormons believed the Donovan
Act of 1836 didn't restrict them to one county. Some Missourians believed
it did, and resorted to harassment and mob violence. Some Mormons responded
in kind.
>>>
>>> ... the secret gruesome bloody death oaths sworn in the
>>> LDS Temple of the Lord, ...
Which can be shown to be Biblical.
>>>
>>> ... the threats of blood-atonement, ...
"Threats" being your own personal editorial. Also Biblical, and if you
understand the concept, the only people who could have possibly been
"threatened" by bllod atonement were those who had received sufficient
revelation that belief was no longer a matter of pure faith. Joseph Smith
compared it to looking at the noon-day sun and then claiming that the sun
was a figment of the imagination.
>>>
>>> ... the institutionalized racism, ...
Like every other church on the planet until things started to change in
the middle of the last century. Certainly that doesn't make it right - but
it doesn't make it unique to Mormonism, either.
>>>
>>> ... the disobedience of the banning of polygamy by the
>>> LDS First Presidency, ...
Which led to several excommunications.
>>>
>>> ... Joseph Smith Jr's lying about his illegal polygamous
>>> marriages, ...
Would that be anything like Abraham lying about /his/ marriage in order
to save his own skin?
>>>
>>> ... the destruction of the Expositor and its printing
>>> press on the orders of 'prophet' Smith, ...
A fitting response to the inflammatory lies it was printing.
>>>
>>> ... the castrations of young men who wouldn't relinquish
>>> their sweethearts to the old codger Mormon 'priests', ...
If it ever happened - and that's a big if - it was an isolated incident.
>>>
>>> ... the homosexual purges at BYU...
Do you not believe a private university has the right to enforce an
honor code?
>>>
>>> ... were either non-existent, or made up by anti-Mormons.
>>>
>>> [BTW, that's just a starter list.]
>>
>> Undoubtedly. It would be a much shorter list, however, if
>> you applied the "really happened" filter insted of the "if
>> it makes the Church look bad it must be true" filter.
>
> You're denying that what's in the list is true?
>
It wasn't particuly clear in what I wrote, but I was referring to the
implied longer list. Not just the "starter list".
But your point is taken. Let me amend my statement to include not just
the "really happened" filter but also the "really happened but not in the
biased and blackened way that enemies of the Church present it" filter.
bestRegards, Guy.
John Manning
> jrob...@terra.com.br (John Manning) wrote:
>> net...@GeoCities.com (Guy R. Briggs) wrote:
>>> jrob...@terra.com.br wrote:
>
> <snip backpeddling from calling 12 million Mormons mass murders>
>
> <snip non-response on how it was my daughter's fault she got spit on>
>
>>>> ... but you act as if the abuses ...
>
> Which alleged abuses have nothing to do with people spitting on
> missionaries.
Door knocking proselytizers of any religions who bother others
occasionally get unpleasant reactions from people who don't wish to have
religious intrusions. I'd expect that proper Missionary training would
include instructing the door knockers to be prepared for such possibilities.
>>>> ... during Brigham's 'Reformation', ...
>
>
>>>> ... the raiding and pillaging by the Danites, ...
>
> Responses, in kind, to the raiding and pillaging of non-Mormons who
> didn't think Mormons should be allowed to settle in Missouri any where
> except Caldwell County. It seems some uppity Mormons believed the Donovan
> Act of 1836 didn't restrict them to one county. Some Missourians believed
> it did, and resorted to harassment and mob violence. Some Mormons responded
> in kind.
Actually, Joseph Smith Jr and Brigham Young each attempted to establish
and impose their own theocratic LDS governments through coercion and
intimidation in whatever territories they resided. Just about any
non-LDS peoples, and particularly people of other faiths, would
naturally revolt against such arrogant, aggressive theocratic bullshit.
>>>> ... the secret gruesome bloody death oaths sworn in the
>>>> LDS Temple of the Lord, ...
>
> Which can be shown to be Biblical.
Please show where in the Bible it teaches *Christian* secret gruesome
bloody death oaths. Please also show where in the Bible it teaches
*Christian* secret Temple rituals as practiced in the LDS Temples.
> >>>> ... the threats of blood-atonement, ...
>
> "Threats" being your own personal editorial. Also Biblical,
Please show where in the Bible it teaches officially church sanctioned
*Christian* blood-atonement and threats of blood-atonement by the body
of Christ.
> and if you
> understand the concept, the only people who could have possibly been
> "threatened" by bllod atonement were those who had received sufficient
> revelation that belief was no longer a matter of pure faith. Joseph Smith
> compared it to looking at the noon-day sun and then claiming that the sun
> was a figment of the imagination.
Nonsense. In practice, particularly during Brigham Young's
'Reformation', blood atonement was threatened for common transgressions
such as adultery and disobedience to the 'authorities' of the 'one true
church'.
>>>> ... the institutionalized racism, ...
>
> Like every other church on the planet until things started to change in
> the middle of the last century.
This argument of yours then clearly shows that the LDS 'one true church'
was substantively no different than any other religion of the day in
terms of the supposed actual 'teachings of God' about race. Did your god
change his mind, guy? He must be a different god from the God who
Biblically says "I am the same yesterday, today and forever."
> Certainly that doesn't make it right - but
> it doesn't make it unique to Mormonism, either.
Another fine example of the Mormon god's fraudulent teachings in the
name of their claimed freshly-"restored"-by-God 'one and only true
Christian church'. Uh-huh.
>>>> ... the disobedience of the banning of polygamy by the
>>>> LDS First Presidency, ...
>
> Which led to several excommunications.
Were all the guilty members of the First presidency excommunicated? Was
the guilty 'prophet' who was officially in charge of all of it, himself
excommunicated?
>>>> ... Joseph Smith Jr's lying about his illegal polygamous
>>>> marriages, ...
>
> Would that be anything like Abraham lying about /his/ marriage in order
> to save his own skin?
No. Using the aberrations in the Old Testament to excuse breaking the
law and lying about it in 19th century America doesn't fly, Guy.
>>>> ... the destruction of the Expositor and its printing
>>>> press on the orders of 'prophet' Smith, ...
>
> A fitting response to the inflammatory lies it was printing.
Actually it was an illegal act of the destruction of a private business.
In today's America, Smith and his accomplices would face serious
criminal charges.
>>>> ... the castrations of young men who wouldn't relinquish
>>>> their sweethearts to the old codger Mormon 'priests', ...
>
> If it ever happened - and that's a big if - it was an isolated incident.
There's more than one incident of castration described in LDS Church
history, Guy. And the big 'if' you're suggesting, isn't. The Bishop Snow
incident has substantial corroborating evidence. Brigham Young's
'Reformation' is replete with these kinds of abuses and atrocities and
threats of them. - And you know it. -
>>>> ... the homosexual purges at BYU...
>
> Do you not believe a private university has the right to enforce an
> honor code?
Apparently "honor" at BYU included anti-gay bigotry, threats and coerced
electro-shock sex aversion therapy.
>>>> ... were either non-existent, or made up by anti-Mormons.
>>>>
>>>> [BTW, that's just a starter list.]
>>> Undoubtedly. It would be a much shorter list, however, if
>>> you applied the "really happened" filter insted of the "if
>>> it makes the Church look bad it must be true" filter.
>> You're denying that what's in the list is true?
>>
> It wasn't particuly clear in what I wrote, but I was referring to the
> implied longer list. Not just the "starter list".
>
> But your point is taken. Let me amend my statement to include not just
> the "really happened" filter but also the "really happened but not in the
> biased and blackened way that enemies of the Church present it" filter.
>
>
> bestRegards, Guy.
Fancy dancin'. BTW, please show where in the Bible it teaches
*Christian* secret gruesome bloody death oaths.