I was a hero yesterday, Rockford style
Richard
Yesterday, about 2 o'clock in the after noon, I was coming back form the
Union Hall in Seattle. Southbound on I-5, raining, wet roads, people still
doing 75mph. Patch of clear sky, glare from the sky and the wet road,
bright sunlight for a moment.
About 21 cars and trucks decided to morph into a freeform sculpture in
exhualtation of traction, kenitic energy, and visibility. Thank GAWD I was
in position number 27. Washington State Patrol was in position number 17,
so at least he was at the scene immediately. Position number 19 held a van
full of Air Force personnell en route to McChord AFB. That was the worst
one. The three of us (EMTs) converged on that vehicle.
Driver had impacted the steering wheel, passengers flew about inside vehicle
as did uniforms, cargo, weapons, spares, tools. 9 passengers had seven
injuries. We stablized the driver, made sure his chest injuries weren't
life threatening, evacuated the van, cleared the weapons, began extraction
of the remaining occupants. I remember telling the driver to spit into my
hand. I was looking for flecks of bloody foam that would indicate a
punctured lung. It was a good spit, and sent blood and saliva up my sleeve
as well. But there was no bloody foam in it.
Driver had to wait for rescue unit w/heavy duty "Jaws of Life" equipment.
His seat had broken loose in the impact, and pinned him against the steering
wheel. I tried to do what I could for the two trapped in the back of the
van. An unsecured spare tire had slid forward under the seat, pinning both
mens' ankles under the corners of the seat ahead of them.
One mans' ankle was broken badly, the other severely sprained. Both men
were in pain. The seats were too jammed up to remove them and any motion of
the seats sent waves of pain into both men. We tried using a car jack to
rip the seats out of the floor, but any time we tried to jack up one end of
the seat, it put pressure on the other mans' ankle. We let the air out of
the tire to ease the pressure while they waited for the extraction
equipment. This guy very much wants me to get him out of the van. His eyes
have the trapped animal look, and I can't get him free without hurting him
or his buddy more.
"OK," I said, "here's what we can do. We can try to kick your broken ankle
back out of the way of the tire. It's gonna hurt like hell, and you may not
walk again, and it only 'might' get you out." I said, "You ready?" The
horrified look on his face told me he heard the part about not walking
again. I know I meant it. He decided to gut it out and wait a little
longer. Ideally, they should stay where they are untill we can get the
proper equipment. If there was internal injury, bleeding, we need to start
treatment immediately or the wound fills up with blood internally. Not
good.
This was all stuff I knew how to do already. You go into a kind of
alert/shock where you focus, you run, you do. Don't think about anything
else, don't feel. Just do, and do quickly. You hear the screams, but you
don't feel them -- not now, you can't feel them, it will keep you from doing
what has to be done -- you're "IT" untill professional help arrives.
Two more EMT's had shown up. Best one went to stabalize the driver.
Remotely, at a distance, I heard myself asking questions, answering,
occasionally giving orders, "Douse that smoke soldier! Now! We got no idea
what's leaking on the ground here. Clear these weapons out of the van! Get
them into the Patrol car. Get one man to watch the vehicle." A wounded
soldier limps by. His leg is injured, bleeding, he's still carrying a
sidearm, he's dazed and in pain. "Clear that weapon, mister! Seargeant,
relieve that man of his sidearm! Yes, put it in the Patrol car. Ok, lets
have a look at that leg. We got medics coming, you'll be OK."
One of the EMT's, wearing hospital blues, keeps insisting that all the
serial numbers be copied down from all the weapons for inventory. I told
him, "The wepons are in Patrol custody. A watch has been set. It's not our
problem anymore. We got people to take care of. Anybody else hurt up the
line?" He nods his head, sprints off.
Fire turcks and ambulances start arriving. We've already agreed on the
Triage situation and assigned numbers to victims. Fire Rescue units extract
the driver and get him onto an ambulance. I help the fire guys wedge the
tire out of the way with a porta power. Fire Rescue extracts numbers four
and five from the back of the van. Number six waits with his buddies at the
Patrol car with the weapons. Number six, lying on the wet pavement, now
barely conscious, cold, wet, is being strapped to a lightweight backboard.
I move to the backboard.
"This ones' ready!", I hear myself shouting I can't believe the command
tone in my voice. I'd be afraid of this guy, too, and he's me! "OK, ready?
HUP!" In one smooth motion five of us lift the injured man. All strangers,
we still move smoothly toward the ambulance some fifty feet away. We hand
him gently into the van. As we transition, I get the full weight of this
man briefly. I change my grip, brushing past his bad leg. He moans, but I
can't help it. He'd sure be worse off if I dropped him. In like manner I
handed off triage numbers 4,5, and 6 to the working EMTs'
I reported back to the WSP officer that the van had been secured and all
personnell extracted and in appropriate hands. I asked to clear away from
the scene if there were no other injuries. The officer said, "OK" and I
headed back to my truck. The best EMT came running up, "We still got
injured trapped ahead of that big van!" I hadn't even looked that far
ahead. We ran the two blocks to the other end of the wreck. There was
apparently another six or eight cars ahead of the van in another kinteic
freefrom arrangement. Two of those vehicles were total goners.
Stabalize and Transport. "Talk to me! What day is today? Do you feel any
pain? You look OK, can you move? OK, stay with the vehicle. Please wait
for the investigating Patrol Officer to contact you." For the two badly
wrecked vehicles, I said, "We have EMTs here. We are in radio contact with
the fire and rescue groups. We have an extraction team coming your way." I
went back to the rig. "We got three stabalizations, two non-extractions,
one extraction. We wanna get cervicals on all three now!" The fireman
breaks out a box of cervical collars, gives two the EMT#2 and follows me to
the extraction scene. EMT#2 heads for the other vehicle.
A fifth heavy Fire Truck arrives. EMT#2 waves to him. The driver doesn't
acknowledge him. I'm more used to yelling, "LOOKOUT!" on job sites, over
the sound of big diesels. And that fire truck ain't big enough to drown me
out. "HEY!", the drivers eyes dart to the two of us, the truck swerves to a
stop next to us. "We got two stabalizations ready for transport. Call it
in will ya?" He jumps down, grabs a box and heads for the wrecked cars.
We start back to our cars. That's when I notice EMT#2 has his left leg in a
cast. He'd been limping the whole time. I direct the one lane of traffic
to allow him to slowly cross to his vehicle. I can see the "Vampires",
people who get a thrill out of peering at a wreck. They always piss me off.
Try having some guy scream in your ear while you're working on him, and tell
me you want any of this for fun or a thrill. I know the look on my face
says, "Fuck with me, and I'll kill you." but I don't care. I look each
driver in the eye. I point directly at them, their car, their face, their
eyes, and I sharply motion them on. Some of them are cool about it. They
smile, I smile back. It ain't everyone, it's just some. . .
The Tacoma City Fire trucks were last on the scene. One of the high ranking
fireman shouts, "Get out of that lane. Get over here!" I walked right up
to him. "Ya know, rather than put up with your bullshit, I think I'll just
go home." His jaw dropped. "We were first on scene, half hour ago. Meybe
you guys were at lunch?"
Hey, I thought it was pretty funny.
I walked away. Brand new jackets, spotless, equipment perfect, ready for
that photo op with the news. Just when you thing there's nothin' you can
count on, some prick shows up in a clean suit and starts hollering orders.
I couldn't find my sunglasses, I'll be lucky if the blood and grease washes
out of my brand new Chirstmas lambskin jacket for less than $50.00 at the
cleaners, and no so much as a "Thank You, Masked Man."
So, now, at last, I get into my truck and drive off. I lost a good pair of
Uvex Bandit sunglasses, I left a card with the gun watch, asking him to call
me if anyone finds them. I can't help thinking it would be a nice gesture
if they (McChord AFB) bought me a new pair.
But they probably won't.
R
Cheryl Wogahn
didn't get your photo op, those guys that you helped will never forget
your patience and kindness. It is a very scary thing to be in an
accident like that and feel only pain and helplessness. A kind voice
and a hand to hold mean more than anything at that moment.
I admire your calm during the craziness. I find that to be amazing that
people can do that. I have done it when my son has been hurt. I only
wish that if I get in a jam like that, there is someone like you in the
crowd to help me out.
Cheryl
Red
"Richard" <rra...@USWest.net> wrote in message
news:H_Pc8.25$M97....@news.uswest.net...
> This is something personal that I can share with the group.
Amazing story and glad you can be of help to people like that. How does it
tie in with your recovery?
Red
WhiteHybiscus
>tie in with your recovery?
>
>Red
>
Actually, Red.....this was probably the most theraputic thing that could have
happened to Richard.
Remember my mantra, Find out who you are and be it?
Richard is a soldier. And a damn good one! This may be the first time he's
been able to be really in touch with that deepest side of himself in quite a
while.
I think it was an extreemly valuable event that let him remember who he really
is.
Sitting on the sidelines, waiting out this dip in the economy/idelness, has
probably been hell on Richard and others like him.
When a man is capable of delivering this type of service to others, idleness
and the feeling of uselessness must feel worse than death.
Arte
WhiteHybiscus
This is the part of you that was always in there. The part that i saw when I
first met you. The part I considered a friend.
I knew you had the right stuff. Amazing how well that training comes right
back
when needed. Amazing how the voice of command, and the steadyness of duty,
honor, service to a cause greater than your self has been in there all along.
Welcome back, Sarge! You've been missed. Must have felt good to have been
back in harness and being the best of yourself again.
With the thanks of a gratetful nation.
Soldiers! sheesh!
Arte
Richard
R
<snip>
"Red" <JoyAllYe...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:6TQc8.1750$Ep1....@news2.east.cox.net...
Richard
First: I find it somehow insulting that you clipped my outpouring to one
sentence, then question the validity of my action.
This stuff takes a lot out of me. Do you think I can hear a man scream in
pain and not want to do anything I can to help him? I still have occasional
nightmares about the last major I-5 pileup I was at. This stuff affects me
deeply. I cannot do it for a living any more. But I cannot also, not stop.
Once in, you stick it out till relieved, till something or someone comes
along who has more authority to deal with this. Untill that happens, you
take your best shot.
Next to the vampires and pricks I mentioned in the first post, I despise the
armchair quarterbacks. It's such a problem that Washington State has a Good
Sam Law which relieves a motorist from undue responsibility for helping at
the scene of an accident. Meybe it's a subset of vampires, too.
Hows that relate? Co-Dependency is ultra-critical. It's part of the denial
subset that goes, "That didn't count because, YOU DIDN'T DO IT RIGHT!" it's
usually offered by persons completely unaffected by the situation, and it
has an equally distant value to those directly involved. Well, today, right
now, I'm over that sort of PB criticism.
Folks in the wrecks -- can you imagine ground zero in a multi-car stackup
that runs for blocks? -- wandering around dazed, bleeding. I wished I could
have been there for the WTC, but I was here, not there. I'm not a hand
holder, not when it gets this busy and we're strung out so far. I try to be
quick, delegate, and follow-up. I want you to take all the responsibility
you can handle, because I need your help. And, If I think you're gonna
screw up the evolution, I assure you, you will not think of me as a nice
man, ever again.
For me, the maturation came when:
The EMT#2 was shaking with excitement and hyperventillating. I really
needed competent help, not passed out experts. I calmly took him aside and
asked him if he realized how excited he was? Did he know he was shaking? I
asked him to take a moment and collect himself. I told him he was doing a
great job, and there was help on the way.
The maturation was: I asked for what I needed from him. I didn't demand or
threaten.
It came when another volunteer fireman came up to the van as started
shouting orders. I asked him to calm down, told him we had this one under
control, asked him to report to the WSP- on scene. He did so.
maturation: I would have probably grabbed him, threatened him, or slugged
him -- anything to get this hyperexcited individual away from my (patients)
people.
It came after, when I realized I had, at all times, and in all positions,
deferred to the powers and authorities that were present on the scene. I
had functioned to help people, within the structures society already had in
place. I worked in support of those in authority, understanding that we
were all human and under pressure.
When I transferred the patients to the ambulances, I made sure I was handing
a person over to a person. Either I, or another EMT, explained what had
happened to the person being presented for treatment, our triage evaluation,
and our on-site observations. At no time did we make any undefensable claim
regarding our ability to diagnose or evaluate persons under our care.
maturation: I did not need to be in control of the situation. I did not
need to misrepresent facts to achieve my goals.
This related because I had no idea a test was coming. This was, and is, me.
And yes, the intensity of command scares me. It scares me because we all
fuck up and people die when that happens. But I can see what happens when
there are no stuctures. People still fuck up and die. So, if I care -- and
by strength of arm and calm wits and practiced care, I have proved that I
care -- I will do all in my power to save and keep life. If that means
tolerating a system that's works only marginally better than no system at
all, but one more person is saved, then I gotta do it. Since I have
testified with body and substance that I do care, then it is good right and
just that I conform to those structures which provide for that care.
In short, I don't have to like cops, I just have to work with cops. I don't
have like wienie fire LT's, I just have to go around them. I can like and
reward and complement these competent persons. In that massive crackup,
there were only three life-threatening, immediate care injuries. All these
were identified, stabalized and treated before any commercial fire and
rescue equipment arrived on scene.
I'd call that a celebration of humanity.
R
<snip>
Richard
"WhiteHybiscus" <whiteh...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020220124420...@mb-cg.aol.com...
> Dear Richard:
<snip>
> Welcome back, Sarge! You've been missed. Must have felt good to have
been
> back in harness and being the best of yourself again.
<snip>
Actually, with the degree and all, it would be Capt.
R
donkey
Wow. That's some pretty impressive tie-in, no doubt.
Though it's never been so acute for me (thank god), I have gone through some
similar stages, regarding my thoughts about authority and structure. It's
encouraging to hear that such growth can pay off so well when push really
comes to shove.
It's also a good reminder that we all need to respond in some way to
emergencies, one time or another. It sounds like it would have been good if
you were there at the WTC. But it's no less important that you were there on
I-5; the countless smaller emergencies of life need leaders and hard workers
just as badly as the massive televised ones.
Well done.
-Donkey
Stewart/sna
"Richard" <rra...@USWest.net> wrote:
>This is something personal that I can share with the group.
>I walked away. Brand new jackets, spotless, equipment perfect, ready for
>that photo op with the news. Just when you thing there's nothin' you can
>count on, some prick shows up in a clean suit and starts hollering orders.
>I couldn't find my sunglasses, I'll be lucky if the blood and grease washes
>out of my brand new Chirstmas lambskin jacket for less than $50.00 at the
>cleaners, and no so much as a "Thank You, Masked Man."
>
>So, now, at last, I get into my truck and drive off. I lost a good pair of
>Uvex Bandit sunglasses, I left a card with the gun watch, asking him to call
>me if anyone finds them. I can't help thinking it would be a nice gesture
>if they (McChord AFB) bought me a new pair.
>
>But they probably won't.
Red asked you how your post tied into the topic of this newsgroup (ie.
codependency). The first sentance of your original post offers one
explaination, as did your response to Red.
I'd like to offer up another explaination of how I think your post might
fit in with the topic of this newsgroup. I think these last two
paragraphs of your post go a ways towards revealing one possible reason
why you posted this here, and why it fits with the topic of this
newsgroup. In other words, you want to feel some recognition and
appreciation for what you feel was a job well done. The desire to be
recognized and appreciated for doing something that nobody asked you to do
(or even that someone asked you to do) is one common feature of
codependency. It's obviously a common feature of being human too. But if
it causes you problems, that is, if you find that you are consistently
helping people and complaining that they don't recognize or appreciate
your help, then that's a common symptom of codependency.
Sincerely
Stewart
PS. That was a job well done Richard!!!! :-)
--
(remove the SPAMBLOCK if you want to reply in e-mail)
Red
"Stewart/sna" <metaphor...@usaor.net> wrote in message
news:metaphorSPAMBLOCK...@dap-216-151-67-244.pri.tnt-1.mcm.pa.
stargate.net...
> Red asked you how your post tied into the topic of this newsgroup (ie.
> codependency). The first sentance of your original post offers one
> explaination, as did your response to Red.
>
> I'd like to offer up another explaination of how I think your post might
> fit in with the topic of this newsgroup. I think these last two
> paragraphs of your post go a ways towards revealing one possible reason
> why you posted this here, and why it fits with the topic of this
> newsgroup. In other words, you want to feel some recognition and
> appreciation for what you feel was a job well done. The desire to be
> recognized and appreciated for doing something that nobody asked you to do
> (or even that someone asked you to do) is one common feature of
> codependency. It's obviously a common feature of being human too. But if
> it causes you problems, that is, if you find that you are consistently
> helping people and complaining that they don't recognize or appreciate
> your help, then that's a common symptom of codependency.
>
> Sincerely
> Stewart
> PS. That was a job well done Richard!!!! :-)
I also think it was a job well done and unlike Richard stated, I never
questioned the validity of his actions, I merely asked how it tied into his
recovery from codependency which is what this group is about. I thought it
was a sincere question. This is as good an explanation as any I guess.
Red
Red
the validity of your actions. I merely asked how it tied into your recovery
(from codependency which is what the group is about.) You've certainly
questioned the validity of my posts as well as many of the rest of the
groups posts. I don't see how my question to you did that. Perhaps you are
projecting??
Red
"Richard" <rra...@USWest.net> wrote in message
news:CSTc8.261$u24....@news.uswest.net...
LDJJR
involved and sharing your skills in a difficult situation. I agree with Red
and Stewart in his later post, it does tie into co-dependency. We all want
recognition for a good job, but it can be dangerous if we are always seeking
that acclaim. I'm not saying that, that was what you were doing in this
situation. You acted out of a commitment to helping in a situation that you
are trained for and there is nothing wrong with that.
I know that I still seek that recognition. It stems from not getting any
recognition or appreciation most of my life. So, it feels good.
I think you are still on an adreline high from yesterday. So, take it easy.
Great job!
Linda
"Richard" <rra...@USWest.net> wrote in message
news:CSTc8.261$u24....@news.uswest.net...
swb
I read your story in awe. Not only are you a wonderful human being, an
obviously well trained & capable soldier, but you are also a gifted
writer.
Oh, & yes...a hero indeed!
Are you able to be given some debriefing after such a horrendous
experience?
swb
whiteh...@aol.com (WhiteHybiscus) wrote in message news:<20020220124420...@mb-cg.aol.com>...
Richard
see a really big wreck two or three cars ahead, that's not codependency,
that's calamity. I chose to help these people, although I do not understand
a personality who can see people in pain, know they posses the skills to
rendere assistance, know the law allows such assistance, and then refust to
provide immediate first-on-scene assistance because it upsets them later.
That's PTSD, not CoDependency. The resentment for the late bloomer pricks
standing around for their (career boosting) photo-ops is long standing.
It's perinniall as grass in local politics. I turned down my (second)
commendation from the Wash State Patrol before I left the scene. The verbal
was suffucient, as was the knowledge that I functioned adequately in an
emergency.
The reference to Rockford was from the old James Garner, "Rockford, P.I."
series in which he always took the heat, saved the day, and someone else got
the credit. I don't have a dog in that race, and I quit the volunteer fire
department because of a fellow like the types I saw yesterday. So, yeah, I
had issues and baggage. I said what was on my mind, and walked away. Your
problem with that was. . . ?
The remark about McChord AFB replacing my sunglasses -- not. A wry
commentary on ingratitude in human nature. I guess you didn't see the humor
in it.
And, yes, if I find myself first-at-scene on major crackups more often, I
might take your opinion to heart.
I believe I've already expressed an opinion on hyper-critical persons?
R
<Snip>
"Stewart/sna" <metaphor...@usaor.net> wrote in message
news:metaphorSPAMBLOCK...@dap-216-151-67-244.pri.tnt-1.mcm.pa.
stargate.net...
>
Richard
R
<snip>
"Red" <JoyAllYe...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:74Wc8.2626$Ep1.1...@news2.east.cox.net...
Richard
My bad.
R
<snip>
"swb" <csw...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:9f0c1f43.02022...@posting.google.com...
Stewart/sna
IMHO, if you OFTEN find yourself helping people who didn't ask for your
help and complaining about the lack of recognition you receive, then your
helping people could be a sign of codependency. On the other hand, if you
DON'T OFTEN find yourself helping people who didn't ask for your help, or
you do often find yourself helping people who didn't ask for your help BUT
YOU DON'T OFTEN complain about the lack of recognition you receive, then
your helping people is probably not a symptom of codependency.
I don't know you well enough to know how often you do or don't do anything.
Sincerely
Stewart
"Richard" <rra...@USWest.net> wrote:
>Ya know, for me, I just don't see how it seems like this to you. When you
>see a really big wreck two or three cars ahead, that's not codependency,
>that's calamity. I chose to help these people, although I do not understand
>a personality who can see people in pain, know they posses the skills to
>rendere assistance, know the law allows such assistance, and then refust to
>provide immediate first-on-scene assistance because it upsets them later.
>"Stewart/sna" <metaphor...@usaor.net> wrote
tpatrick
A bunch of things come to mind from ACOA,
1. ACOA's are addicted to excitement in all their affairs.
2.ACOA's take themselves very seriously.
3. ACOA's usually feel that we are different from other people.
4. ACOA's are super responsible or super irresponsible.
5. Rescueing is a common complaint of the codependent, often comes from
learning the behavior pattern at an early age.
6. Codependents tend toward judgemental behavior.
If you look at Richard's story you will find elements of all these
characteristics and possibly more. You might even say that Richard has
taken codependency to a professional level, not uncommon, codependents
often wind up in the "caring" professions. What is truely remarkable is
that Richard has taken his codependent characteristics and used them to be
helpful and a legitimate asset to society rather than the usual destruction
that we often engage in. Well done Richard.
tpatrickb
vaya con dios
Red <JoyAllYe...@cox.net> wrote in article
<6TQc8.1750$Ep1....@news2.east.cox.net>...
:
: "Richard" <rra...@USWest.net> wrote in message
:
:
:
Gary
bullet, more powerful than a speeding locomotive?
Gary
"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the
difference."
--------------------------------
"Richard" <rra...@USWest.net> wrote in message
news:H_Pc8.25$M97....@news.uswest.net...
swb
Are you able to be given some debriefing after such a horrendous
experience?
Richard replied:
This was, sorta, it. I presumed too much on the good health of the
group.
My bad.
R
I feared this was so.
I chose a typical career for the codependent, nursing. I love it, I'm
good at it & yes, I thrive on the adrenalin rush it gives me. Does
this mean that everyday I go to work I'm to give myself a slap on the
wrist & a harsh talking to?
Should I give it up & be a checkout chic to prove to all that I'm not
codependent?
I think Richard needed to debrief & just be heard. Nothing more,
nothing less.
I'm kind of surprised at the reponse he's received here.
swb
"Richard" <rra...@USWest.net> wrote in message news:<yA_c8.429$u24.1...@news.uswest.net>...
Richard
<snip>
"Stewart/sna" <metaphor...@usaor.net> wrote in message
news:metaphorSPAMBLOCK...@dap-209-114-157-112.pri.tnt-2.pgh.pa
.stargate.net...
>
> IMHO, if you OFTEN find yourself helping people who didn't ask for your
> help and complaining about the lack of recognition you receive, then your
> helping people could be a sign of codependency. On the other hand, if you
> DON'T OFTEN find yourself helping people who didn't ask for your help, or
> you do often find yourself helping people who didn't ask for your help BUT
> YOU DON'T OFTEN complain about the lack of recognition you receive, then
> your helping people is probably not a symptom of codependency.
>
> I don't know you well enough to know how often you do or don't do
anything.
<snip>
OK, my baggage. The prick attitude was really big-time in Major Metro areas
like Seattle. Politically adept persons advanced themselves by giving good
interviews at emergency scenes. As they advanced they became (IMO -- and
noticably in others as well) less connected to the motives which propel
rescue workers and more connect to the political operations which serve to
advance careers.
We, the schleps who went into the burning buildings, wrecked cars, squalid
homes, crack houses, bore the burdens of their advancement, but got none of
the support. We OTOH, seemed to resent the people who, because they smelled
blood in the water, would criticise our work, or act as it they were above
lifting a finger to assist us, or buck the tide to get us equipment. Snotty
attitudes were one thing, not getting equipment because the ranking officers
needed stylish new firefighters coats and hats for their TV interviews was
another thing.
Again, my baggage, my bad.
You see, this was a milestone for me because it set my heart to rest on this
issue. I'm gonna despise these folks forever. And that's OK with me. You
don't like it? You gonna hurt my career because I got a 'bad attitude'?
Bring it on!
The really healing thing -- and I sincerely believe that the goal of
codependent recovery is healing and recovery, NOT venting and support -- is
that it is now, OK, to be me. I can work with authority when the stakes are
high. It's been a problem in the past. I had first worked to change my
behavior, thinking I would deal with the attitude later. I was confused
about some things I felt, and the appropriateness of those feelings. The
really healing thing was that my feelings were just that, my feelings.
Nothing more, nothing less, valid simply because they came from me, and they
were me.
The incidentals: Jacket cleaned up with soap and water. That didn't
matter. The sunglasses can be had at a discount safety store. Meybe I
needed new lenses anyhow. The Taco/Metro pricks? Dogs gotta bark. Birds
gotta sing. Assholes just gotta be assholes. Like, I'm gonna invest energy
changing them? Not likely. But I now accept that we have a cats and dogs
relationship
The officer-on-scene thanked me, BTW, and I believe I've said that was
enough. sometimes just a nod from another professional means more than a
news write-up. And, I wonder if the emotional let down I experienced wasn't
a part of the whole experience. I don't do it that regular, so I have no
baseline to work from.
I guess nobody noticed the evolution of the hero in media, but that's a book
in itself. I was aware of the evolution of John Wayne to Clint Eastwood,
James Garner to Tom Sellick, the A-Team, on down to Hill Street Blues. I
guess Mel Gibson has a new Nam movie. I went up to the (VietNam replica)
memorial to put my hand on it, again, like I put my hand on my fathers'
casket. I usually don't like to be around other people when I go there,
sometimes I cry, sometimes I talk to the guys, tell 'em what's happening.
Probably looks wierd if you don't understand what I'm up to. A couple of
the folks copied me, I noticed, as I left.
Point is:
Lotsa baggage about courage, faith, performance, personality and a finely
honed and erudite application of profanity fell into place for me. I wasn't
entirely comfortable with the me I saw, because it meant I was not living up
to my self. Sometimes I want to be back in the military, but I know I'd
hate it once I got there.
I am definitely not a political person. Some, many even, on this ng will
attest to that. OK, won't even try. I am a capable action leader. I'll
stick to that.
R
<snip>
Red
> I'm kind of surprised at the reponse he's received here.
>
> swb
>
Well . . . maybe . . . but then we're all pretty much in different levels of
codependency here, too.
Red
Red
with your recovery and growth experience. I did not understand what you were
trying to say on group at all. Makes much more sense to me with the
background info. Good deal getting past the baggage and doing what had to be
done without it.
Red
"Richard" <rra...@USWest.net> wrote in message
news:Ek7d8.4$h66....@news.uswest.net...
> OK, lets look at this again. . .
> <snip>
>
Red
cannot find an outlet that uses our powers for good instead of evil, huh?
Red
"tpatrick" <tpat...@direct.ca> wrote in message
news:01c1ba96$e55fb500$638b42d8@tpatrick...
Stewart/sna
>"Stewart/sna" <metaphor...@usaor.net> wrote
>> IMHO, if you OFTEN find yourself helping people who didn't ask for your
>> help and complaining about the lack of recognition you receive, then your
>> helping people could be a sign of codependency. On the other hand, if you
>> DON'T OFTEN find yourself helping people who didn't ask for your help, or
>> you do often find yourself helping people who didn't ask for your help BUT
>> YOU DON'T OFTEN complain about the lack of recognition you receive, then
>> your helping people is probably not a symptom of codependency.
>> I don't know you well enough to know how often you do or don't do
>> anything.
"Richard" <rra...@USWest.net> wrote:
>OK, lets look at this again. . .
>
In my response to you I was commenting about how it seemed to me that in
the last two paragraphs of your original post you were expressing, a
little more straighforwardly then you did in the rest of your post, how
you wished your efforts had been <more> recognised and appreciated.
In this response, it seems to me that you again express the same desire
(albeit less straightforwardly), while at the same time denying that
desire (again somewhat unstraightforwardly).
Sincerely
Stewart
Artemesia
Stewart to richard:
> >"> In my response to you I was commenting about how it seemed to me that in
> the last two paragraphs of your original post you were expressing, a
> little more straighforwardly then you did in the rest of your post, how
> you wished your efforts had been <more> recognised and appreciated.
>
> In this response, it seems to me that you again express the same desire
> (albeit less straightforwardly), while at the same time denying that
> desire (again somewhat unstraightforwardly).
>
> Sincerely
> Stewart
I wonder how many people on this group were directly affected by the
VietNam War.
Richard was there, and I assume it affected him. I lost a cousin and
a husband there, as well as many of the boys I grew up with. and I
knew a lot of the boys who returned.
Richards comments on his recent experience on the scene at the 1-5
pile up strikes me as essentially true, raw and naked true, from
someone who served in that awful war.......a war that left indeible
scars (emotional even worse that physical) on those whose lives it
touched.
It was a war where people were required to stand by to pay the
ultimate price, and returned to find that the whole thing was some
sort of sick joke....huge losses, and the army had to play by a bunch
of rules that tied their hands to do what was needed to do it right.
Richard, I don't know about you, but when Clinton decided to
normalize relatiohns with Viet Nam several years ago, I wanted to
throw up. He said we need viet Nam as a trading partner. The only
comodity Viet Nam has that hold any interest for me is information on
the 2,500+ MIA's who are unaccounted for...2 of them in my own family.
Richard served, and the country has never really acknowledged the
sacrifice that he and others like him made their. Nor have they
acknowledged the pain and =sacrifieces made by myself and my children,
and all those related to my cousin.
Their sacrifice, what they gave, is largely the punch line of jokes.
Serval years ago, my younger son and some of his buddies came to pick
me up from Lunch with a groups of "my accquaintances" in Los Angeles.
The boys were cadets at a Military college at the time, home on
furlough. Skip had a habit of bringing friends home. They were all
dressed in beach wear. Baggies, flip-flops, T-shirts....tall, tanned,
knobby-kneed. (my late husband and my boys loved to surf.)
The comments of the assembled contingent of politically correct
psuedo-intelectuals. pontificating and joking around was hard for me
to stomach on a good day.......the facility of armchair liberals and
their political correctness does not appeal to me.
And yet, when my son walked in, and gave me the car keys, or asked for
same....who remembers the minor details?.........His blue eyed blond
good looks, fit body of a muscular christian, the good manners, and
easy charm in a demeanor that took things seriously, and took pride in
living his life to honor, duty and a code.........well, of course, i
love my son.
Can you imagine the horror I felt when one of my "collegues" made a
comment that my child looked/acted like a member of the Hitler youth?
Those people know the facts of my bio. and if they know math, they
know that child was born 7 months after his father, a USMC f=4 pilot
was shot down over Viet Nam. And they actually through that comment
was funny, perhaps witty...an not a one flinched or tried to minmize
the ugliness of it.
Stewart......I think it is inappropriate to like military service or
service in
high danger, necessary occupations such as the police, or the fire
department,
or EMT's especially codependent.
These people have served humanity in a way that is needed for the
greater good.
Many have laid down their lives for us.
Richard is not wrong when he says that there is a large segment who do
not, and have not appreciated the service or sacrifice.
Soldiers, cops, firemen, emt's don't do it for the thanks. They do it
because that is who they are. They are doing a job that needs to be
done, and they do it out of a sense of duty and service to a greater
good. They don't want thanks and they don't want honors. The don't
want money or fame.....they do it because the know the job has to be
done and they are willing to do it.
However, for a segment of society to be so smug and complacent that
they shrug this service off and laugh about it.......and style
themselves "the people's republic of Santa Monica". etc,
Well the whole thing leaves a feeling of uncleaness and a decay of
values, in my book.
But then, I don't know, I just wasn't raised that way......Richard
wasn't either.
This wave of refulsion is not aimed at you stewart, or at anyone else
on this group. But it might be nice if we all gave a littloe thought
to the people who have chosen to live their lives by a code of duty
and service. And realize that we live in the freedom and breathe the
air they have made safe for us.
I'm not surprised that Richard feels the irony of some of the
perceptions of others on this topic.
And He's probably shocked as hell at the fact that i get it. But i
do.
Please think before sluffing such behavior off as codependent.....and
perhaps meditate a little on the emotional toll that some people bear,
inliving up to their code......even if you don't understand it.
Arte
Stewart/sna
whiteh...@aol.com (Artemesia) wrote:
>Stewart......I think it is inappropriate to like military service or
>service in high danger, necessary occupations such as the police,
>or the fire department, or EMT's especially codependent.
Huh???
>Please think before sluffing such behavior off as codependent.....and
>perhaps meditate a little on the emotional toll that some people bear,
>inliving up to their code......even if you don't understand it.
Once again for the hard of understanding.....
>"Stewart/sna" <metaphor...@usaor.net> wrote
>> IMHO, if you OFTEN find yourself helping people who didn't ask for your
>> help and complaining about the lack of recognition you receive, then your
>> helping people could be a sign of codependency. On the other hand, if you
>> DON'T OFTEN find yourself helping people who didn't ask for your help, or
>> you do often find yourself helping people who didn't ask for your help BUT
>> YOU DON'T OFTEN complain about the lack of recognition you receive, then
>> your helping people is probably not a symptom of codependency.
Artemesia
> whiteh...@aol.com (Artemesia) wrote:
> >Stewart......I think it is inappropriate to like military service or
> >service in high danger, necessary occupations such as the police,
> >or the fire department, or EMT's especially codependent.
>
> Huh???
>
> >Please think before sluffing such behavior off as codependent.....and
> >perhaps meditate a little on the emotional toll that some people bear,
> >inliving up to their code......even if you don't understand it.
>
> Once again for the hard of understanding.....
Well, Stewart:
You have totally dismissed the points I made in my post. Perhaps you
are not of he Viet Nam era----but I think my points were on point and
have relevancy to what Richard might be going through.
I also revealed my own feelings and perceptions of how that
historiocal occurance might permaently color the perceptions of people
who lived through it.
You seem to totally dismiss every thing I said. What seems most
important is to justify your position as if it were from the burning
bush.
Nice diversionary tactic, but it seems to beg the point.
The fact that you must hold that you are right at any cost, that only
you have insights into this is very unattractive.
It occurs to me that in the almost two years I've been on this list I
have rarely if ever heard you share one issue in your own recovery,
but rather, you seem to sit back as if on high pontificating and
jusging all who post here. And people seem to buy it and treat you
with kid gloves.
You seem to show very little compasion for the plight of others, and
reveal next to nothing about yourself. Persoanlly, one wonders what
you get out of sitting here, removed and aloof, telling others that
they just don't meassure up.
What do you get out of that? Surely the thrill of this particular
game, with it's rather redundent and limited focus must be providing
you with something that's kept you here doing your little one trick
pony for years.
BTW:>
Your little bitch snipe "once again for the hard of understanding"
missed it mark. What a rude and inappropriate put down. i would have
thought by now that you would have known that my many limitations and
self doubts do not include thinking that i am stupid. trust me when I
tell you, that i am not.
This really is beneath you, or I have seriously misjudged you<
arte
Stewart/sna
>metaphor...@usaor.net (Stewart/sna)
>> Once again for the hard of understanding.....
whiteh...@aol.com (Artemesia) wrote:
>Well, Stewart:
>You have totally dismissed the points I made in my post. Perhaps you
>are not of he Viet Nam era----but I think my points were on point and
>have relevancy to what Richard might be going through.
>I also revealed my own feelings and perceptions of how that
>historiocal occurance might permaently color the perceptions of people
>who lived through it.
>You seem to totally dismiss every thing I said. What seems most
>important is to justify your position as if it were from the burning
>bush.
>Nice diversionary tactic, but it seems to beg the point.
I reiterated what I said, and didn't respond to the points you raised
because I didn't find the points that you raised relevent to the what I
had said. Just as you "totally dismissed", once again, my statement to
pontificate on what you think is interesting and important.
>The fact that you must hold that you are right at any cost, that only
>you have insights into this is very unattractive.
That's your opinion, and you're certainly more than welcome to it.
>It occurs to me that in the almost two years I've been on this list I
>have rarely if ever heard you share one issue in your own recovery,
>but rather, you seem to sit back as if on high pontificating and
>jusging all who post here. And people seem to buy it and treat you
>with kid gloves.
Again, that would be your opinion and you're welcome to it.
>You seem to show very little compasion for the plight of others, and
>reveal next to nothing about yourself. Persoanlly, one wonders what
>you get out of sitting here, removed and aloof, telling others that
>they just don't meassure up.
Once again, your opinion of me and you're welcome to it.
>What do you get out of that? Surely the thrill of this particular
>game, with it's rather redundent and limited focus must be providing
>you with something that's kept you here doing your little one trick
>pony for years.
If you want me to talk about what I get out of my participation in this
group, then you'll have to ask me that question in a little nicer manner.
But if you want to ask me that question in the form of "What do you get
out of being such an asshole oh ye of limited creativity?", then you'll
get the response I wrote here.
>Your little bitch snipe "once again for the hard of understanding"
>missed it mark. What a rude and inappropriate put down. i would have
>thought by now that you would have known that my many limitations and
>self doubts do not include thinking that i am stupid. trust me when I
>tell you, that i am not.
I don't think you're stupid, I was restated what I said and pointed out
that IMHO your response didn't have anything to do with what I said.
>This really is beneath you, or I have seriously misjudged you
Got me, but you're more welcome to your opinion of me and to judge or
rejudge me as you see fit.
Richard
My opinion of your contribution is that it is utter nonsense.
R
<snip>
"Stewart/sna" <metaphor...@usaor.net> wrote in message
news:metaphorSPAMBLOCK...@dap-209-166-149-75.pri.tnt-1.pgh.pa.
stargate.net...
Richard
fool. Or worse, and often. . .
There is a realm of humanity of which you display a sorry ignorance. The
entire notion of courage, citizenship (acting 'properly' in a society),
pity, and compassion seem to have been removed from your self. I cannot
believe they were never there. This is a thing beyond my understanding, so
I won't go on with astonished feelings about your humanity, or lack thereof.
There is a threshold of behavior and response which goes well past reasoned
(or unreasoned) decisions. We do not reason to engage in this or that
behavior. Responses kick in. Later you get labeled 'Hero' or 'Coward',
'Leader', or 'Slacker', but by then, it's already passed. Time, Life, Self,
all blended in a moment of action. Never repeated, always present in the
soul, never to be redone or undone. From this you know your self, whether
you view that self with loathing or approval, and from this you are known.
The concept of Honor, Duty, Courage, and Loyalty, even in the face of
danger -- if there were not danger, how could they be anything more than
philosophical banter -- might be twisted. It is, after all, a fallen world.
The finest of Virtues might not pass unscathed. But Virtue will never be
reduced to mere Dysfunctionality. Virtue is an eternal aspect
These things have been known for centuries. The knowledge of Virtue has
existed far, far longer than the concept of CoDependency. While these terms
serve to identify and map a recovery path from a relationship that is
codependent, the terms just do not apply universally to all aspects of life.
I find your attempts to dismiss heroism, courage, calmness in the face of
disaster (I don't recall feeling calm, but we got it done), ability to
organize, direct and monitor action, determination to save lives, . . .
essentially, all Virtues necessary for the preservation of society,
unbelieveable.
Like I said, the stuff about the cops and the pricks, that's never going to
go away. Ask Arte about REMFs. Yeah, it's human nature to want recognition
when you did a great job of dealing with disaster (newspapers reported 53
cars in the wreck -- I lost count at twenty-something) And it's righeous
indignation when somebody else comes along to steal the show. There is
something universal about sticking your head, ". . . in the Lions' Mouth."
and then despising those who take the credit. They lacked the will and the
courage, but by lies and deceit, sought the credit.
Telling me what I 'should' (we all know we 'should' no be codependent --
it's the one thing we all agree on) think and feel, is absurd. It's an
attempt to rob the glory of a fine and noble deed -- not just mine, I mean
the others who stopped, helped, and really made it happen -- people rising
above their own mundane selves. That was terriffic.
The really cool thing? Those terrorists just don't scare me much anymore.
I'm sorry their so pissed, but I didn't do it to them. They have their
grievances, but murdering civilians to get attention is over the top. But,
if they do something like that again, we're ready. We can handle it. Guys
like me, and the others who functioned expertely, voluntarily, and with
reasoned submission to the powers that be, are gonna pop up and just do it.
Sure they can hit buildings, but their target is our hearts. We, as a
nation and a society, got too much heart for that to happen.
Yeah, Nam didn't go like I wanted it to. Yeah, I was too old to get into
the reserves again. Yeah, I can be a real jerk at times. But I was right
where I needed to be, right then. So I'm gonna do my best, trust HP, and
believe I'll be put where I'm needed.
Thanks all, for listening.
R
<snip>
"Stewart/sna" <metaphor...@usaor.net> wrote in message
news:metaphorSPAMBLOCK...@dap-209-166-148-131.nfas.greensburg-
tnt-1.sns234.pa.stargate.net...
tpatrick
with Stewart on the other. Pay attention Folks. I think HP is sending us a
lesson on shifting loyalties, communications and codependent behavior.
Kinda reminds me of siblings trying to get attention in a "normal" family.
tpatrickb
vaya con dios
Richard <rra...@USWest.net> wrote in article
<91td8.4$PG.3...@news.uswest.net>...
: Thank You for sharing that.
:
:
:
Artemesia
> because I didn't find the points that you raised relevent to the what I
> had said. Just as you "totally dismissed", once again, my statement to
> pontificate on what you think is interesting and important.
You sem to be quite good at deciding that the contribution of others
in not relevant. I believe that my comments, re: the facts that the
Viet Nam expreirence may have colored my life or Richard's, is very
much on point and insightfuol to this thread.
In addition, I backed it up with a point from my own life. A point
that was seminal to my understanding of how my values were not in
much respected by a segment of my "peers" here in Los Angeles.
It's one thing to "share" one's experience, and how it may or may not
to the experience of another........and if I've missed the mark on how
Richard may have been affected by Viet Nam, it was , at the very
least, a relevant and insightful post on how a member of his
generation might have felt. And a clear and cogent comment about my
self and my views on a topic that i rarely speak about. Something
that has effected me deeply. It was also presented in a manner that
was clear and considered.
Snip
>
> >What do you get out of that? Surely the thrill of this particular
> >game, with it's rather redundent and limited focus must be providing
> >you with something that's kept you here doing your little one trick
> >pony for years.
>
> If you want me to talk about what I get out of my participation in this
> group, then you'll have to ask me that question in a little nicer manner.
> But if you want to ask me that question in the form of "What do you get
> out of being such an asshole oh ye of limited creativity?", then you'll
> get the response I wrote here.
Oh come on, Stewart. I didn't call you an asshole, nor would i ever
consider you one of limited creativity. I think that i have generally
treated you with respectfor your intelligence and education.
Whether or not you choose to reveal more of yourself and your issues
is your business, but be aware that it appears that you rarely do. It
also appears that you are quite liberal with your comments from on
high on the many ways that other posters "just don't get it." Your
treatment of katie comes to mind.
It is probably the freshest example. I appealed to you both on and
off list to consider that a newcomer might he given a little more
leeway in approaching the groups.
As for your suggesstion that I "ask you nicely."
You know me and my temper well enough to realize that my comments to
you have been tempered by a desire to express my objections to your
views in a mature and respectful manner.
if I'd wanted to tell you to just go fuck yoursself we both know that
i am very capable of saying exactly that, even more colorfully, in
more than one language.
Fighting with you is not my idea of a lot of fun. However.....it is
rather irritating to watch you sit back and denigrate the comments of
myself and so many others.
have a nice day.
Arte
Artemesia
> Stewart, if you keep repeating this nonsense, someone (ME) will call you a
> fool. Or worse, and often. . .
>
Richard said it all, and said it well.
Richard,
I just whipped off a ripping post in support of your beautiful post,
and I've gotten a problematic reply from google.
I hope it goes through.
This is some of the finest stuff I've seen you do.
if it doesn't get thru, I'll try to re-create it.
I like you so much more when you talk about real stuff like this.
in the bonds.
Arte
Richard
R
BTW: It did affect me. Gut level, spiritually, intellectually, emotionally.
Never before in history (since perhaps the Spanish Armada) has a campaign
been so badly managed.
I don't know why so many guys really flipped out. I have my hunches.
<snip>
"Artemesia" <whiteh...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:abfd7780.02022...@posting.google.com...
Stewart/sna
>metaphor...@usaor.net (Stewart/sna) wrote
>> I reiterated what I said, and didn't respond to the points you raised
>> because I didn't find the points that you raised relevent to the what I
>> had said. Just as you "totally dismissed", once again, my statement to
>> pontificate on what you think is interesting and important.
whiteh...@aol.com (Artemesia) wrote:
>You sem to be quite good at deciding that the contribution of others
>in not relevant. I believe that my comments, re: the facts that the
>Viet Nam expreirence may have colored my life or Richard's, is very
>much on point and insightfuol to this thread.
>
>In addition, I backed it up with a point from my own life. A point
>that was seminal to my understanding of how my values were not in
>much respected by a segment of my "peers" here in Los Angeles.
>
>It's one thing to "share" one's experience, and how it may or may not
>to the experience of another........and if I've missed the mark on how
>Richard may have been affected by Viet Nam, it was , at the very
>least, a relevant and insightful post on how a member of his
>generation might have felt. And a clear and cogent comment about my
>self and my views on a topic that i rarely speak about. Something
>that has effected me deeply. It was also presented in a manner that
>was clear and considered.
Yes, well that's all well and good, but you wrote a response to one of
*my* posts, so I snipped out what *I* wasn't interested in and I
reiterated what I *was* interested in, which was what I had posted in the
first place and what you had totally dismissed because you had deciding
that it wasn't relevant.
Sincerely
Stewart
--
Stewart/sna
You must have a score card of some kind. I suppose I should get one eh??
Sincerely
Stewart
Stewart/sna
"Richard" <rra...@USWest.net> wrote:
>Stewart, if you keep repeating this nonsense, someone (ME) will call you a
>fool. Or worse, and often. . .
S'OK by me.....
>There is a realm of humanity of which you display a sorry ignorance. The
>entire notion of courage, citizenship (acting 'properly' in a society),
>pity, and compassion seem to have been removed from your self. I cannot
>believe they were never there. This is a thing beyond my understanding, so
>I won't go on with astonished feelings about your humanity, or lack thereof.
If you "help humanity" once in a while and you enjoy it, then that's all
fine and dandy. But if you continually help humanity and continually
complain that humanity doesn't appreciate it enough, then that could be a
sign of codependency.
>There is a threshold of behavior and response which goes well past reasoned
>(or unreasoned) decisions. We do not reason to engage in this or that
>behavior. Responses kick in. Later you get labeled 'Hero' or 'Coward',
>'Leader', or 'Slacker', but by then, it's already passed. Time, Life, Self,
>all blended in a moment of action. Never repeated, always present in the
>soul, never to be redone or undone. From this you know your self, whether
>you view that self with loathing or approval, and from this you are known.
Once again, the issue to me is not helping people, but helping people and
complaining that your help wasn't appreciated in the way that you desire.
Both could be considered behavior that "kicks in". Some people help
others and don't even give a thought to who noticed. Other's have a "they
didn't even thank me" sort of thing that kicks in.
>The concept of Honor, Duty, Courage, and Loyalty, even in the face of
>danger -- if there were not danger, how could they be anything more than
>philosophical banter -- might be twisted. It is, after all, a fallen world.
>The finest of Virtues might not pass unscathed. But Virtue will never be
>reduced to mere Dysfunctionality. Virtue is an eternal aspect
Some say virtue is it's own reward. Other's seem to have to make a big
deal out of it.
>I find your attempts to dismiss heroism, courage, calmness in the face of
>disaster (I don't recall feeling calm, but we got it done), ability to
>organize, direct and monitor action, determination to save lives, . . .
>essentially, all Virtues necessary for the preservation of society,
>unbelieveable.
Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back. I didn't dismiss all
that Richard, I only pointed out that you sure seem to need a lot of
recognition and appreciation for your many virtues. But apparently I
didn't appreciate your virtues enough and look what happens eh??
>Telling me what I 'should' (we all know we 'should' no be codependent --
>it's the one thing we all agree on) think and feel, is absurd. It's an
>attempt to rob the glory of a fine and noble deed -- not just mine, I mean
>the others who stopped, helped, and really made it happen -- people rising
>above their own mundane selves. That was terriffic.
Did I say "should" anywhere??
>"Stewart/sna" <metaphor...@usaor.net> wrote
tpatrick
tpatrickb
vaya con dios
Stewart/sna <metaphor...@usaor.net> wrote in article
<metaphorSPAMBLOCK...@dap-209-114-157-56.pri.tnt-1.pgh.pa.star
gate.net>...
:
: You must have a score card of some kind. I suppose I should get one eh??
Artemesia
> Who'd a thought a week ago that Richard and Are would be on the same side
> with Stewart on the other. Pay attention Folks. I think HP is sending us a
> lesson on shifting loyalties, communications and codependent behavior.
> Kinda reminds me of siblings trying to get attention in a "normal" family.
>
> tpatrickb
> vaya con dios
Yes, Pats, it is true.
Any you were the first to call it.
In fact i think you posted a variation on this theme several weeks
ago.
You will be amused to learn that I have, this day, send a private
communication to Stewart explaining that my behavior is strongly
influenced by 2 personal factors>
A. This whole Viet Nam thing is something that bonds even the
most amazing people if they were effected by it, as Richard and i both
were.
You may remember that at one time I adored Richard and considered him
my first real friend on this list.
B, I've had an adverse reaction to a medication that i'd really
hoped had stablized my BP, and am dealing with one week of physical
withdrawl from it, as well as consideralbe aungst at the death of hope
that the solution to my bio/maddness had been found. That is a major
factor for me this week.
I have rec3eived a thoughtful and considerate reply, by email from
Stewart, who seems to understand how my extreem frustration in th9is
area has veiled my ususally ladyloike and demure behavior.......(I
wish).
Stewart, while not perfect, continues to be a gentleman.
BTW, Pats......What do you think of my suggestion that Richard and i
duke it out up close and personal in a cheap motel roon 12 way up the
I 5? We seem to be inexplicably drawn to one another?
I think we may be able to parlay this into a good made for tv low
budget movie of the week........or perhaps a rehash of the old
Saturday Nite Live news anchor thing with Dan Ackroyd and jane Curtin.
There must be a silver lining in this somewhere? she
said......slipping further and further into denial.
Happy families?
Arte
Richard
<snip>
"Stewart/sna" <metaphor...@usaor.net> wrote in message
news:metaphorSPAMBLOCK...@dap-209-114-157-56.pri.tnt-1.pgh.pa.
stargate.net...
>
> "Richard" <rra...@USWest.net> wrote:
> >Stewart, if you keep repeating this nonsense, someone (ME) will call you
a
> >fool. Or worse, and often. . .
>
> S'OK by me.....
>
> >There is a realm of humanity of which you display a sorry ignorance. The
> >entire notion of courage, citizenship (acting 'properly' in a society),
> >pity, and compassion seem to have been removed from your self. I cannot
> >believe they were never there. This is a thing beyond my understanding,
so
> >I won't go on with astonished feelings about your humanity, or lack
thereof.
>
> If you "help humanity" once in a while and you enjoy it, then that's all
> fine and dandy. But if you continually help humanity and continually
> complain that humanity doesn't appreciate it enough, then that could be a
> sign of codependency.
<snip>
Somewhere between the denigrating remarks -- generally consideered invalid
and harmfull in groups -- and the pretzel logic, there are shards of insight
worth hearing.
What I shared, what I experinced, was an altered sort of reality. You're
driving down the freeway, grumbling to yourself about this person, or that
slight, or some crazy driver, and the world turns to snarled crap right
before your eyes. Something 'else', the self that has always been there,
but not in it's rightful position, takes over.
You might not wholly like that self. You might fear that self. But right
then, that self is doing what's necessary, and doing it capably and
authoratively.
The previous questions of 'helping people' fade into non-existence. It
isn't like volunteering for clean-up day at the beach. It isn't like
charity work at the soup kitchen. It's something that happens right before
your eyes. Fight or flight takes over (I saw a few cars behind and to my
right just swerve and go around the jumble as we all slid to a stop in the
rain) and you no longer reason, you just do.
When it's over, you observe that you did, or you did not. It's that simple.
It's nice to be able to tell someone what happened, and how you feel about
it without getting criticised, but that so rarely happens.
When I got back form Nam, one of the questions people asked was , "Did you
kill anybody?" I always felt bad about this. I was pretty sure I had, but
we never found the body, and things were happening pretty fast, so I never
knew for sure. It wasn't a battle, it was a perimeter security thing. It
wasn't in Nam proper, it was in the Philippines. They weren't the 'Enemy'
because the PPRG wasn't recognised (Philippine Provisional Revolutional
Government -- I heard they were pissed and jealous of Immeldas' shoes) as a
force. So, most of all, I felt confused. I did what I felt was necessary
to preserve my own life and the lives of my guys.
I often wondered if that was really, OK. Guys like you were everywhere in
those days, and they asked penetrating and hostile questions whenever they
could get away with it. Every now and then (GAWD, I loved Forrest Gump.
That movie told me than an idiot could tell when it was time to bust the
lips of a fool) one of the guys would crumble under this pressure --
something they were never prepared for, something they never deserved -- and
bust some hostile mind raper. We did violence good, we all attended a fine
finishing school, but we had no idea how cowardly our homeland had become.
We saw people and societies which had lasted for generations without our
sciences and conveniences. Why, we asked ourselves, why did they endure so
well? They had heart. They had attitude. They had Virtue. We had been
ethno-centristically indoctrinated to think we were the pinnacle of
humanity. We were not. A lot of guys never accepted that, and I think it
broke them down.
Encountering persons of your stripe was just too much for them. I regret
the loss of their lives, and find it a sorrowful injustice, when compared to
those around me now.
<snip>
> >There is a threshold of behavior and response which goes well past
reasoned
> >(or unreasoned) decisions. We do not reason to engage in this or that
> >behavior. Responses kick in. Later you get labeled 'Hero' or 'Coward',
> >'Leader', or 'Slacker', but by then, it's already passed. Time, Life,
Self,
> >all blended in a moment of action. Never repeated, always present in the
> >soul, never to be redone or undone. From this you know your self,
whether
> >you view that self with loathing or approval, and from this you are
known.
>
> Once again, the issue to me is not helping people, but helping people and
> complaining that your help wasn't appreciated in the way that you desire.
> Both could be considered behavior that "kicks in". Some people help
> others and don't even give a thought to who noticed. Other's have a "they
> didn't even thank me" sort of thing that kicks in.
<snip>
And my issue with your responses is:
You may be seeing something that is not there. If you ponder the question,
"What is the color of things in dark places?" -- I know you love pretzel
logic -- you will comprehend that all the guess work in psychiatry is based
on an educated and unverifiable response to a symptom. Actions here, speak
louder than words.
And, for the umpteenth time, do check google if you like, the WSP Officer
did thank me. So, really, I do not know -- I suspect a motive, but it is a
very low motive -- why you choose to repeat something that is untrue.
The ingratitude of humans is monumental. I see no harm in noticing it. I
do see great harm in conststantly undermining and denigrating, questioning
and casting doubt, on other peoples actions. I am sure there are examples.
<snip>
> >The concept of Honor, Duty, Courage, and Loyalty, even in the face of
> >danger -- if there were not danger, how could they be anything more than
> >philosophical banter -- might be twisted. It is, after all, a fallen
world.
> >The finest of Virtues might not pass unscathed. But Virtue will never be
> >reduced to mere Dysfunctionality. Virtue is an eternal aspect
>
> Some say virtue is it's own reward. Other's seem to have to make a big
> deal out of it.
<snip>
And those who have it not? How do they deal with their lack? Do they deny
Virtues' existence, or attempt through subtle philosophical manipulation to
minimise it completely out of existence? How do they deal with their lack
of comprehension? Do they undermine the brave, so that fools may sleep
comfortably at night? Is that what you say should be done?
In a way I appreciate you input. This was the one true thing I brought back
from Nam. I believed we were facing dangers to protect homes, families,
loved ones. An innocent overview, I admit. Now, as I mature, I find prople
generally unreliable, untrustworthy, and correctly suspect at all times.
Especially people who tell me what I should, and should not, feel. None of
that, in any way, lets me off the hook, morally, philosophically, or
culturally. I still have to deal with me, myself, and my HP, when these
situations arise. It does take a lot out of me. I am willing to give. Oh,
yeah, and the gratitude question?
If it is good, right, and just, that people feel graitude when a benefit is
done for them, what is it when they do not? What is it, when they feel
their plight, but deny their rescuers? What twist of humanity is this?
What occurs in the human soul when a person is saved from dire circumstances
and they, in an attempt to dismiss their wretched plight, reply with
derision and scorn?
This is as old as humanity. You pronouncements have little to do with
history or reality.
> >I find your attempts to dismiss heroism, courage, calmness in the face of
> >disaster (I don't recall feeling calm, but we got it done), ability to
> >organize, direct and monitor action, determination to save lives, . . .
> >essentially, all Virtues necessary for the preservation of society,
> >unbelieveable.
>
> Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back. I didn't dismiss all
> that Richard, I only pointed out that you sure seem to need a lot of
> recognition and appreciation for your many virtues. But apparently I
> didn't appreciate your virtues enough and look what happens eh??
<snip>
Yes, tell me what happens?? It isn't my virtues, I was clear on that, it
was all Virtues which you seem to despise. It wasn't me, it was all the
people who stopped to help. It was all the people who sufferd their pains,
applied their skills, co-operated fully to carry out emergency rescues and
treatments. This is a celebration of Virtue. OTOH, it seems you do not
appreciate any virtues. Why is this response so necessary for you? If you
don't like me, you can ignore me. Again, you remark. . . what was your
intent? What do you think happens eh??
BTW: Either it happened, or it didn't. I functioned, or I didn't. My
posting was a recognition of my better self. I don't know why you need to
object so vehemently. I became part of a larger, better (at least is seems
better to me, and that's enough for me) humanity. It was very affirming in
a time when I needed affirmation.
<snip>
> >Telling me what I 'should' (we all know we 'should' no be codependent --
> >it's the one thing we all agree on) think and feel, is absurd. It's an
> >attempt to rob the glory of a fine and noble deed -- not just mine, I
mean
> >the others who stopped, helped, and really made it happen -- people
rising
> >above their own mundane selves. That was terriffic.
>
> Did I say "should" anywhere??
<snip>
I felt the implication, and the scorn. Do you deny that?
R
<snip>
Rain
>Subject: Re: I was a hero last Wednesday, Rockford style
>From: "Richard" rra...@USWest.net
>Date: 2/23/2002 11:28 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <h1Sd8.46$7w2....@news.uswest.net>
Rain.
Living Life In The Meantime...
____________________________
"And remember you this: that which you condemn will condemn you, and that which
you judge, you will one day become." _Conversations With God: Book 1_
Stewart/sna
"Richard" <rra...@USWest.net> wrote:
>What I shared, what I experinced, was an altered sort of reality. You're
>driving down the freeway, grumbling to yourself about this person, or that
>slight, or some crazy driver, and the world turns to snarled crap right
>before your eyes. Something 'else', the self that has always been there,
>but not in it's rightful position, takes over.
>
>You might not wholly like that self. You might fear that self. But right
>then, that self is doing what's necessary, and doing it capably and
>authoratively.
>
>The previous questions of 'helping people' fade into non-existence. It
>isn't like volunteering for clean-up day at the beach. It isn't like
>charity work at the soup kitchen. It's something that happens right before
>your eyes. Fight or flight takes over (I saw a few cars behind and to my
>right just swerve and go around the jumble as we all slid to a stop in the
>rain) and you no longer reason, you just do.
>
>When it's over, you observe that you did, or you did not. It's that simple.
I think it would be very difficult to see this simple story as a
description of codependent behavior. Why? Because codependency is
usually defined as a pattern of behavior that makes you unhappy for some
reason. In the simple story above there is no pattern of behavior, and no
expression of unhappiness.
>It's nice to be able to tell someone what happened, and how you feel about
>it without getting criticised, but that so rarely happens.
However, with the addition of this single sentance you have changed a
simple story that probably doesn't describe codependent behavior, into a
more complex story that could be seen as describing codependent behavior.
Why? Because you now reveal that this is a pattern of behavior that
usually makes you unhappy.
>And, for the umpteenth time, do check google if you like, the WSP Officer
>did thank me. So, really, I do not know -- I suspect a motive, but it is a
>very low motive -- why you choose to repeat something that is untrue.
If you check google, then you will see that I never said nor suggested
that the WSP Officer didn't thank you, nor did I say or suggest that
nobody thanked you. What I said was that it seemed to me you were
complaining that your actions weren't appreciated in the way(s) that you
wished they were.
>BTW: Either it happened, or it didn't. I functioned, or I didn't. My
>posting was a recognition of my better self. I don't know why you need to
>object so vehemently. I became part of a larger, better (at least is seems
>better to me, and that's enough for me) humanity. It was very affirming in
>a time when I needed affirmation.
I thought it was a nice post. Red asked what your post had to do with
codependency, and I offered up one possible connection. Were your actions
affirming in and of themselves, or did you feel that affirmation was
lacking in some way? Did you tell the story here in the hopes of
receiving the affirmations you desired? Self-affirming behaviors usually
aren't seen as codependent behaviors. But the need for affirmations from
others can make those same behaviors codependent - particularly if the
affirmations of others are often not what you wished they were.
Richard
snipped -- that the issue of codependency gets completely swallowed up in an
emergency. It isn't about relationships. I have no relationships with any
of these accident victims. I've had no contact with any of these people
again.
Since codependency is, by definition, a pattern of behavior in
relationships, it just doesn't fit the situation.
<snip>
"Stewart/sna" <metaphor...@usaor.net> wrote in message
news:metaphorSPAMBLOCK...@dap-209-114-157-43.pri.tnt-1.pgh.pa.
stargate.net...
<snip>
And your comment was. . . ?
<snip>
>
>
> >It's nice to be able to tell someone what happened, and how you feel
about
> >it without getting criticised, but that so rarely happens.
>
> However, with the addition of this single sentance you have changed a
> simple story that probably doesn't describe codependent behavior, into a
> more complex story that could be seen as describing codependent behavior.
> Why? Because you now reveal that this is a pattern of behavior that
> usually makes you unhappy.
<snip>
Is that how it seems to you? I disagree. I believe that your incessant
criticisms are hostile and destructive. Many of us have asked you to stop,
but you have repeatedly refused. That's a pattern in itself. I don't like
it, you persist. You get what you get it that's how you want it.
This isn't about me being codependent, this is about you being an asshole.
I wish you could see that. That's unlikely, but that won't stop me from
confronting your very rude and accusative (bad) behavior.
<snip>
>
>
> >And, for the umpteenth time, do check google if you like, the WSP Officer
> >did thank me. So, really, I do not know -- I suspect a motive, but it is
a
> >very low motive -- why you choose to repeat something that is untrue.
>
> If you check google, then you will see that I never said nor suggested
> that the WSP Officer didn't thank you, nor did I say or suggest that
> nobody thanked you. What I said was that it seemed to me you were
> complaining that your actions weren't appreciated in the way(s) that you
> wished they were.
<snip>
More pretzel logic? Here's where we part company. My remarks were about
human nature, my understanding of a wholesome human nature, and some of the
failures thereoff. If you want to see that as a complaint, you can.
You twisted that into something you could criticise. The problem I have
with your criticism is that it was unwarranted, it wasn't connected to Reds
remark, it was connect to your inner need to judge and criticise. I'm not
sure how you came to see it that way, but it's not the way I see it. I see
an inner need to judge and criticise as a terrible and painful flaw, one
that spreads it's infection at every opportunity.
<snip>
> >BTW: Either it happened, or it didn't. I functioned, or I didn't. My
> >posting was a recognition of my better self. I don't know why you need
to
> >object so vehemently. I became part of a larger, better (at least is
seems
> >better to me, and that's enough for me) humanity. It was very affirming
in
> >a time when I needed affirmation.
>
> I thought it was a nice post. Red asked what your post had to do with
> codependency, and I offered up one possible connection. Were your actions
> affirming in and of themselves, or did you feel that affirmation was
> lacking in some way? Did you tell the story here in the hopes of
> receiving the affirmations you desired? Self-affirming behaviors usually
> aren't seen as codependent behaviors. But the need for affirmations from
> others can make those same behaviors codependent - particularly if the
> affirmations of others are often not what you wished they were.
<snip>
Nice try. Your thinly veiled hostility is so apparent it's disgusting.
Worse, I see your mindset as one of those who would have swerved and sped
off, mumbling something self serving and philosophical to themselves. I
just don't have time to deal with you any more. If you choose to trade your
humanity for philosopy, I can't stop you. Don't expect me to go along with
it.
The feelings I shared were my feelings. I didn't ask for your opinion. I
didn't ask for your review. I didn't ask for your critique. I've seen
enough of your pretzel logic for a life time. I just know what I felt. It
usually takes me a long time to sort this stuff out and I don't want to hear
from people like you.
I have no reference point to evaluate your input. I see a logical, but
angry person. I see someone who hands out meaness and expects people to
thank them for the logical review. When people respond with anger to your
anger, you subject them to further logical review. That's insane. But it's
time I dealt with your sort of hypocritical armchair critic.
R
Stewart/sna
"Richard" <rra...@USWest.net> wrote:
>Hhmm. . . I'm just saying -- and have said in previous parts Stewart
>snipped -- that the issue of codependency gets completely swallowed up in an
>emergency. It isn't about relationships. I have no relationships with any
>of these accident victims. I've had no contact with any of these people
>again.
>
>Since codependency is, by definition, a pattern of behavior in
>relationships, it just doesn't fit the situation.
Let's say that 3 identical people come accross the same accident. One of
them continues on his way. One of them stops to help. And one of them
stops to help but later complains that his efforts are rarely
appreciated. IMHO, the first two situations probably don't describe
codependent behavior, while the last situation probably does.
If you rarely find yourself in emergencies, and every time you do you
complain about how your efforts aren't appreciated in the way(s) you wish,
then your behavior probably isn't codependent. If you often find yourself
in emergencies, but you rarely complain about the fact that your efforts
aren't appreciated in the way(s) you wish, then your behavior probably
isn't codependent. However, if you often find yourself in emergencies,
and you often complain that your efforts aren't appreciated in the way(s)
you wish, then IMHO this is a behavior pattern that is common to
codependency.
Codependency may be a pattern of behavior in relationships, but I don't
see why that means it has to be a pattern of behavior in a relationship
with the same person. I think it can be a pattern of behavior in
relationships with different people. For instance, if I am always giving
things to my wife and complaining that she doesn't appreciate my gifts,
then it seems to me that my behavior could be considered codependent.
Similarly, if I am always giving things to people I will never see again
and complaining that they don't appreciate my gifts, then it seems to me
that this behavior could also be considered codependent.
Sincerely
Stewart
--
RebFla46
>Who'd a thought a week ago that Richard and Are would be on the same side
Who woulda, indeed. Yes, a scorecard is definitely needed. Does this explain
why in the program we're guided to concentrate on principles, instead of
personalities?
> Pay attention Folks. I think HP is sending us a lesson...
I agree 100% with that!
Richard
targate.net...
>
> "Richard" <rra...@USWest.net> wrote:
> >Hhmm. . . I'm just saying -- and have said in previous parts Stewart
> >snipped -- that the issue of codependency gets completely swallowed up in
an
> >emergency. It isn't about relationships. I have no relationships with
any
> >of these accident victims. I've had no contact with any of these people
> >again.
> >
> >Since codependency is, by definition, a pattern of behavior in
> >relationships, it just doesn't fit the situation.
>
>
> Let's say that 3 identical people come accross the same accident. One of
> them continues on his way. One of them stops to help. And one of them
> stops to help but later complains that his efforts are rarely
> appreciated. IMHO, the first two situations probably don't describe
> codependent behavior, while the last situation probably does.
<snip>
Since you repeated this many, many times, could you tell me why it is so
important to you? Do you intend to address the other issues that were
important to me? Or, did you intend to dismiss them, and go on with what
you feel is important?
<snip>
> If you rarely find yourself in emergencies, and every time you do you
> complain about how your efforts aren't appreciated in the way(s) you wish,
> then your behavior probably isn't codependent. If you often find yourself
> in emergencies, but you rarely complain about the fact that your efforts
> aren't appreciated in the way(s) you wish, then your behavior probably
> isn't codependent. However, if you often find yourself in emergencies,
> and you often complain that your efforts aren't appreciated in the way(s)
> you wish, then IMHO this is a behavior pattern that is common to
> codependency.
<snip>
Ah, but nobody asked you. I find your repeated focus on something I
consider inappropriate, and out of focus to the event, disturbing.
My feelings on Charity, Virtue, Courage, were these of any interest to you?
Apparently not. Did you understand what I meant when I said that
responding to an emergency was so different that if just didn't fit the
situation you were describing? Obviously not, since you have never
responded to that element of the thread.
<snip>
> Codependency may be a pattern of behavior in relationships, but I don't
> see why that means it has to be a pattern of behavior in a relationship
> with the same person. I think it can be a pattern of behavior in
> relationships with different people. For instance, if I am always giving
> things to my wife and complaining that she doesn't appreciate my gifts,
> then it seems to me that my behavior could be considered codependent.
> Similarly, if I am always giving things to people I will never see again
> and complaining that they don't appreciate my gifts, then it seems to me
> that this behavior could also be considered codependent.
<snip>
And if it was? You still haven't addressed my point. In the first case,
giving gifts to loved ones in intimate relations, you could have a point.
Since codependency is defined by a relationship, or series of dysfunctional
relationships, your supposition there, is valid.
Also, if I were passing out candy, or change, to beggars on the street, and
I complained that they did not seem grateful enough to suit me, and
continued complaining, even while giving, you ~might~ also throw that into
the mix. And, if a person did something 'heroic', above and beyond the
daily stuff, and then, in passing, noticed that people were so self absorbed
that they thought nothing of those who risked themselves to ease their pains
and fears,that would be far, far beyond the normal application of the term
'codependent'. But, if I were to go about wondering at every moment whether
something I did, or refrained from doing, was going to fit someone elses
definition of a 'codependent' act, well, that would be very wretched,
indeed. The waste of energy would be far worse than the waste of either the
gift or the charity.
And this is the point which you have ignored completely. In your rush to
fine tune the definition of cedependency, you have crossed several important
boundries. First, you have arrogated yourself to tell me how I should think
(Don't Think -- you're not doing it right). Second, when I tell you what
happened, you snip that part (Don't Talk -- it's not important what you have
to say) and come back to what you were saying. Finally, you dismiss (snip)
my reality and my experience, my version of my feelings, to tell me your
version (repeatedly) of how you feel (Don't Feel -- it's not as important as
how I feel).
Now that pretty much sums up the behavior of the covert agressive victimizer
in a codependent relationship. Not to mention the shaming, the undermining,
and the pendatic return to an inappropriate theme. I do not wish to
tolerate that for a moment. You, so very obviously, show no sign of
stopping, so I just call it like I see it.
All this brings me back to my assertion that you behavior is that of a
through going asshole. It's just the one word that describes your behavior.
R
<snip>
> >> However, with the addition of this single sentence you have changed a
Red
. . oh . . third post or so explained what he meant by his first post. I
had thought from his first post that he was sort of complaining or something
and without the background to the story, I can see where Stewart might have
got that impression too.
But, I think Richard explained rather well why the day meant so much for
him. . . how he was able finally to practice his own detachment from his
demons that had plagued him. I'm not going to bother to re-write his post
for him or try to interpret it again. I understood it when I read it the
first time and I'd probably just mess it up if I tried to paraphrase it and
then I'd piss Richard off all over again. Its in the archives. Why not
re-read it.
Red
"Stewart/sna" <metaphor...@usaor.net> wrote in message
news:metaphorSPAMBLOCK...@dap-216-151-67-54.pri.tnt-1.mcm.pa.s
targate.net...
Stewart/sna
If you or Richard see yourself behaving as the first, second, or third
person, that's OK with me.
Sincerely
Stewart
"Red" <JoyAllYe...@cox.net> wrote:
>Its in the archives. Why not re-read it.
>"Stewart/sna" <metaphor...@usaor.net> wrote
>> Let's say that 3 identical people come accross the same accident. One of
>> them continues on his way. One of them stops to help. And one of them
>> stops to help but later complains that his efforts are rarely
>> appreciated. IMHO, the first two situations probably don't describe
>> codependent behavior, while the last situation probably does.
--
Stewart/sna
>"Stewart/sna" <metaphor...@usaor.net> wrote
>> Let's say that 3 identical people come accross the same accident. One of
>> them continues on his way. One of them stops to help. And one of them
>> stops to help but later complains that his efforts are rarely
>> appreciated. IMHO, the first two situations probably don't describe
>> codependent behavior, while the last situation probably does.
"Richard" <rra...@USWest.net> wrote:
>Since you repeated this many, many times, could you tell me why it is so
>important to you?
This is a group devoted to talking about codependency, so I like to point
it out when I see it.
>Ah, but nobody asked you. I find your repeated focus on something I
>consider inappropriate, and out of focus to the event, disturbing.
If you repeatedly engage in a behavioral pattern that disturbs you, then
it might be considered codependent behavior.
>My feelings on Charity, Virtue, Courage, were these of any interest to you?
>Apparently not. Did you understand what I meant when I said that
>responding to an emergency was so different that if just didn't fit the
>situation you were describing? Obviously not, since you have never
>responded to that element of the thread.
It's not about responding to emergencies, it's about repeatedly responding
to emergencies and complaining that your efforts aren't sufficiently
appreciated. If that shoe doesn't fit you, then it doesn't fit you.
There's nothing I can do about it if it doesn't fit.
>But, if I were to go about wondering at every moment whether
>something I did, or refrained from doing, was going to fit someone elses
>definition of a 'codependent' act, well, that would be very wretched,
>indeed.
Yeah, now you're getting the picture. I mean if you went around trying to
do things the way you thought other people wanted them done (in the hope
that they would call you a hero, or that they wouldn't call you
codependent), and then you complained that the other people didn't
appreciate your efforts sufficiently, then IMHO that could be more than
wretched, that could be codependent!!!! :-)
>And this is the point which you have ignored completely. In your rush to
>fine tune the definition of cedependency, you have crossed several important
>boundries. First, you have arrogated yourself to tell me how I should think
>(Don't Think -- you're not doing it right). Second, when I tell you what
>happened, you snip that part (Don't Talk -- it's not important what you have
>to say) and come back to what you were saying. Finally, you dismiss (snip)
>my reality and my experience, my version of my feelings, to tell me your
>version (repeatedly) of how you feel (Don't Feel -- it's not as important as
>how I feel).
>
>Now that pretty much sums up the behavior of the covert agressive victimizer
>in a codependent relationship. Not to mention the shaming, the undermining,
>and the pendatic return to an inappropriate theme. I do not wish to
>tolerate that for a moment. You, so very obviously, show no sign of
>stopping, so I just call it like I see it.
Feeling a tad codependent with me then??
Sincerely
Stewart
Richard
stargate.net...
>
> >"Stewart/sna" <metaphor...@usaor.net> wrote
> >> Let's say that 3 identical people come accross the same accident. One
of
> >> them continues on his way. One of them stops to help. And one of them
> >> stops to help but later complains that his efforts are rarely
> >> appreciated. IMHO, the first two situations probably don't describe
> >> codependent behavior, while the last situation probably does.
>
> "Richard" <rra...@USWest.net> wrote:
> >Since you repeated this many, many times, could you tell me why it is so
> >important to you?
>
> This is a group devoted to talking about codependency, so I like to point
> it out when I see it.
<snip>
You never answered the question about the color of things in dark places.
You may see it because you do not wish to see something else. Why did you
not answer my thread on that?
BTW: I point out hostile aggressive covert manipulative (your ) behavior
when I see it. Why did you not respond to that?
R
<snip>
Richard
earlier posts.
Why do you choose to see one thing and not see others? What experience do
you have that compares to the one I had? What makes you even competent to
remark on it?
Just answer the question.
R
<snip>
Richard
stargate.net...
>
> >"Stewart/sna" <metaphor...@usaor.net> wrote
> >> Let's say that 3 identical people come accross the same accident. One
of
> >> them continues on his way. One of them stops to help. And one of them
> >> stops to help but later complains that his efforts are rarely
> >> appreciated. IMHO, the first two situations probably don't describe
> >> codependent behavior, while the last situation probably does.
>
> "Richard" <rra...@USWest.net> wrote:
> >Since you repeated this many, many times, could you tell me why it is so
> >important to you?
>
> This is a group devoted to talking about codependency, so I like to point
> it out when I see it.
>
>
> >Ah, but nobody asked you. I find your repeated focus on something I
> >consider inappropriate, and out of focus to the event, disturbing.
>
> If you repeatedly engage in a behavioral pattern that disturbs you, then
> it might be considered codependent behavior.
<snip>
If you repeatedly ignore people, and go on with your stuff, that might be
considered hostile, covert aggressive, dismissing, and abusive. I find your
abuse intolerable. therefore I don't intend to tolerate it.
<snip>
> >My feelings on Charity, Virtue, Courage, were these of any interest to
you?
> >Apparently not. Did you understand what I meant when I said that
> >responding to an emergency was so different that if just didn't fit the
> >situation you were describing? Obviously not, since you have never
> >responded to that element of the thread.
>
> It's not about responding to emergencies, it's about repeatedly responding
> to emergencies and complaining that your efforts aren't sufficiently
> appreciated. If that shoe doesn't fit you, then it doesn't fit you.
> There's nothing I can do about it if it doesn't fit.
<snip>
Then why go on, and on, and on. What's in it for you?
<snip>
> >But, if I were to go about wondering at every moment whether
> >something I did, or refrained from doing, was going to fit someone elses
> >definition of a 'codependent' act, well, that would be very wretched,
> >indeed.
>
> Yeah, now you're getting the picture. I mean if you went around trying to
> do things the way you thought other people wanted them done (in the hope
> that they would call you a hero, or that they wouldn't call you
> codependent), and then you complained that the other people didn't
> appreciate your efforts sufficiently, then IMHO that could be more than
> wretched, that could be codependent!!!! :-)
Again, I was pointing out the stupidity of paying any attention to someone
like you. And, rarely, do you believe your opinion to be humble.
<snip>
> >And this is the point which you have ignored completely. In your rush to
> >fine tune the definition of cedependency, you have crossed several
important
> >boundries. First, you have arrogated yourself to tell me how I should
think
> >(Don't Think -- you're not doing it right). Second, when I tell you what
> >happened, you snip that part (Don't Talk -- it's not important what you
have
> >to say) and come back to what you were saying. Finally, you dismiss
(snip)
> >my reality and my experience, my version of my feelings, to tell me your
> >version (repeatedly) of how you feel (Don't Feel -- it's not as important
as
> >how I feel).
> >
> >Now that pretty much sums up the behavior of the covert agressive
victimizer
> >in a codependent relationship. Not to mention the shaming, the
undermining,
> >and the pendatic return to an inappropriate theme. I do not wish to
> >tolerate that for a moment. You, so very obviously, show no sign of
> >stopping, so I just call it like I see it.
>
> Feeling a tad codependent with me then??
<snip>
Now, you are defining yourself as a Troll. Is that your intent? I don't
know why you need to connect with me in this manner. I don't intend to
allow this connection to exist. I see your behavior as bad behavior.
Obviously, you are taking pleasure in annoying, accusing, and baiting
someone who shared a valid experience. This has consistently been your
contribution. It just took a bit to bring that bad behavior into focus
here.
R
<snip>
Richard
<snip>
"Red" <JoyAllYe...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:YRze8.11739$s03.3...@news2.east.cox.net...
> That's what I thought Richard's original post was about . . . . and then
his
> . . oh . . third post or so explained what he meant by his first post. I
> had thought from his first post that he was sort of complaining or
something
> and without the background to the story, I can see where Stewart might
have
> got that impression too.
<snip>
Yes, I felt let down about human nature. I was also tired.. I believe the
little PTSD thing was pretty normal. I'd been through stuff like that, and
it came to me that I just could not, not stop. I don't volunteer for much
anymore, but when it comes to wrecks with critically injured people, I'll
help them first and figure it out later.
Encounters with people who say an act of heroism is a flawed act, are
insane. Imagine a person trapped in wrecked car, pinned by the broken
remains of the vehicle, critically injured. Would they argue whether
getting them out of the vehicle was a thankless act? Would they say, "Well,
I'm not going to be grateful, and if you don't like that you're the sick
one, so just go away now."
Insane. Incredible. It is, however, a good example of someone takling a
valid defintion and going nuts with it.
<snip>
> But, I think Richard explained rather well why the day meant so much for
> him. . . how he was able finally to practice his own detachment from his
> demons that had plagued him. I'm not going to bother to re-write his post
> for him or try to interpret it again. I understood it when I read it the
> first time and I'd probably just mess it up if I tried to paraphrase it
and
> then I'd piss Richard off all over again. Its in the archives. Why not
> re-read it.
<snip>
Thank you for hearing me.
R
<snip>
Stewart/sna
>>>"Stewart/sna" <metaphor...@usaor.net> wrote
>>>>Let's say that 3 identical people come accross the same accident. One of
>>>>them continues on his way. One of them stops to help. And one of them
>>>>stops to help but later complains that his efforts are rarely
>>>>appreciated. IMHO, the first two situations probably don't describe
>>>>codependent behavior, while the last situation probably does.
>>"Richard" <rra...@USWest.net> wrote:
>>>Since you repeated this many, many times, could you tell me why it is so
>>>important to you?
>"Stewart/sna" <metaphor...@usaor.net> wrote
>>This is a group devoted to talking about codependency, so I like to point
>>it out when I see it.
"Richard" <rra...@USWest.net> wrote:
>You never answered the question about the color of things in dark places.
>Why did you not answer my thread on that?
I suppose because it didn't interest me as much as the stuff I did respond to.
>You may see it because you do not wish to see something else.
We all see things differently.
>BTW: I point out hostile aggressive covert manipulative (your ) behavior
>when I see it.
We all see things differently.
>Why did you not respond to that?
I suppose because it didn't interest me as much as the stuff I did respond to.
Sincerely
Stewart
Richard
issue I believe you would not have the competence, mental, physical, or
theraputic, to participate in. That, in itself, sets off alarms. It was a
good reminder that critical people may be completely ignorant and full of
their own opinions -- while being completely incompetent to judge a
situation -- and, therefore, go right on with a borderline sociopathic
critique.
You were able to attach your hypocracy to some of my long term issues. That
did point out painful issues I had been struggling with for some time. Your
input was a minor irritant in a rather fulfilling event. Coming out of this
with the new-found moral certainty, (it is always, and at all times, better
to assist the injured and helpless) it is now easier to dismiss this sort of
absurd criticism. I am still wondering why you chose the course of action
you did choose, rather than another. But that's your life, and your
decisions.
It didn't interest you that your behavior seems to match an abusers methods
of undermining thought, feeling and sharing? Would a logical examination of
~your~ behavior reveal a mean streak, a cruel willingness to inflict pain on
the vulnerable?
More will be revealed.
R
<snip>
Red
Red
"Stewart/sna" <metaphor...@usaor.net> wrote in message
news:metaphorSPAMBLOCK...@dap-209-166-149-20.pri.tnt-1.pgh.pa.
stargate.net...
Stewart/sna
I guess I try to be a little of all three of them. :-)
Sincerely
Stewart
"Red" <JoyAllYe...@cox.net> wrote:
>LOL . . . which one are YOU??
>"Stewart/sna" <metaphor...@usaor.net> wrote
>>If you or Richard see yourself behaving as the first, second, or third
>>person, that's OK with me.
>>"Red" <JoyAllYe...@cox.net> wrote:
Rain
>I guess I try to be a little of all three of them. :-)
>
>Sincerely
>Stewart