Senior Olympics
gcdoss
I entered the local senior Olympics and did my first training ride this
morning. I ran out of steam after 3 miles as I was pushing it pretty
hard.I'm entered in the 10K race on Aug. 7, so need to energize quick.
Problem is: I've been on a low carb diet for the last 14 months. I lost
70 lbs during the first 10 months and am just trying to hold the weight
I have now.
I have been eating about 85 carb grams a day but today proved I was
doing something wrong.
Do some of you that do a little racing have any advice on what can
energize a 70 year old guy for about 30 minutes? I don't want to start
gaining weight again so a real high carb diet is out of the question. I
did try an energy candy bar but got no help.
I am in fair shape as I ride my Tour Easy about 150 miles a week and do
another 30 or so on a mtn bike.
It's the fast push that drains me so I need to build up a reserve of
energy by race day.
I do have a wager on myself with an old friend that's just 67 years old
riding a road bike.
Hope to get some help.
Jerry
Lewis Campbell
I am in fair shape as I ride my Tour Easy about 150 miles a week and
do
another 30 or so on a mtn bike.
It's the fast push that drains me so I need to build up a reserve of
energy by race day.
<<<<<
Hi, Jerry, I'm only 64 but I have some theories that might help you.
You didn't start out riding 150 miles/week but had to work up to it,
right?
Therefore, if you start trying to ride with a faster group, you will
find that, as time goes by, you will be able to hang with them for
further and further as you 'adapt' to that faster pace. Its kind of
like a runner doing speedwork.
Also, I have tried some of those diets (even though I don't have a
weight problem) and have found that eating what I _like_ seems to work
best for me. I mean eating ice-cream, hot dogs, etc. but the trick is
to only eat them in moderation when I'm not riding a lot of miles.
Hope this helps.
Lewis.
***************
gcdoss <gcd...@cableone.net> wrote in message news:<10g0tp7...@corp.supernews.com>...
Dave Lehnen
If you haven't already done so, make sure the Senior Olympics people
will allow recumbents. They might not; I think here in Arizona they
use the USCF rules, which would prohibit bents under current rules.
Good luck. Sorry I can't really help on the nutrition question.
Dave Lehnen
gcdoss
Here in Prescott, recumbents are allowed. They just don't have a
separate category and are lumped in with all other type bikes.
Guess we aren't very official but there are a lot of bikers involved
this year.
On nutrition,LBS guy told me today that he carbs up the night before
with a lot of pasta. Then on race day eats a lite breakfast and has a
high carb bar 30 minutes before race and another just before he starts.
Also drinks lots of extra water the night before and during race.
I'm trying his advice and carbing up tonight and will do a serious
practice run tomorrow morning.
Jerry 'carbing up' Doss
Trailgalore
> I entered the local senior Olympics and did my first training ride this
> morning. I ran out of steam after 3 miles as I was pushing it pretty
> hard.I'm entered in the 10K race on Aug. 7, so need to energize quick.
> Problem is: I've been on a low carb diet for the last 14 months. I lost
> 70 lbs during the first 10 months and am just trying to hold the weight
> I have now.
> I have been eating about 85 carb grams a day but today proved I was
> doing something wrong.
> Do some of you that do a little racing have any advice on what can
> energize a 70 year old guy for about 30 minutes? I don't want to start
> gaining weight again so a real high carb diet is out of the question. I
> did try an energy candy bar but got no help.
> I am in fair shape as I ride my Tour Easy about 150 miles a week and do
> another 30 or so on a mtn bike.
Are you allowed to race your Tour Easy? Bikes used in the Senior Olympics
are supposed to conform to USAC specs.
gcdoss
It may be that the lady who signed me up wasn't up on recumbents being
allowed or not. She told me they were but I was the only one entered. I
may get to the race site and be bumped by a real official.
Guess I will try to contact an official before race day to make sure I
can race the Tour Easy.
Trailgalore
> Dave Lehnen wrote:
> > gcdoss wrote:
> >
> >> Hi All,
> >> I entered the local senior Olympics and did my first training ride
> >> this morning. I ran out of steam after 3 miles as I was pushing it
> >> pretty hard.I'm entered in the 10K race on Aug. 7, so need to energize
> >> quick.
> >> Problem is: I've been on a low carb diet for the last 14 months. I
> >> lost 70 lbs during the first 10 months and am just trying to hold the
> >> weight I have now.
> >> I have been eating about 85 carb grams a day but today proved I was
> >> doing something wrong.
> >> Do some of you that do a little racing have any advice on what can
> >> energize a 70 year old guy for about 30 minutes? I don't want to start
> >> gaining weight again so a real high carb diet is out of the question.
> >> I did try an energy candy bar but got no help.
> >> I am in fair shape as I ride my Tour Easy about 150 miles a week and
> >> do another 30 or so on a mtn bike.
> > will allow recumbents. They might not; I think here in Arizona they
> > use the USCF rules, which would prohibit bents under current rules.
Da rule book states:
SPORT RULES All cycling events will be conducted in accordance with U.S.
Cycling Federation (USCF) rules, except as modified herein. For a copy of
these rules, please write or call:Multi-gear (free wheel) bikes with front
and rear brakes are required. Fixed gear and recumbent bicycles are not
permitted. All bicycles must be certified by race officials prior to the
competition.
Child
Hey Jerry,
I lost about 60 pounds low carbing and found that with distance or
performance cycling I needed to do some carbing up in order to perform well.
My guiding light in this arena is usually to be found on the weightlifting
newsgroup (although I haven't been there in at least a year, so who knows
where he is now). This article is likely to be helpful, but its geared
towards weight training - read it anyway, the concepts are the same.
http://www.thinkmuscle.com/articles/mcdonald/carb-up-and-ketogenic-diet.htm
If I were going to train for a short race like a 10K, I would be doing
intervals. In my experience there is no faster way to improve your cardio
fitness than intervals.
Edward Dolan
"Child" <da...@alaskaSPAMFREE.com> wrote in message
news:10gb07t...@corp.supernews.com...
If you were 60 pounds overweight, you should not be doing any running or
cycling at all. You should be in a hospital getting a stomach by-pass.
Frankly, I do not know how anyone in this world gets to be 60 pounds
overweight! You must have to really work at it. How are you able to do it
other than eating like a pig and never moving a muscle. We here on ARBR need
to know this so we can gauge your level of intelligence.
And please, do not insult us with your prescriptions for physical training.
--
Ye Old Insult Maven
Ed Dolan - Minnesota
Child
"Edward Dolan" <edo...@iw.net> wrote in message
news:aMGdnZBXYq8...@prairiewave.com...
How would an overweight person lose weight if not to exercise? Silly,
troll, please try again!
> And please, do not insult us with your prescriptions for physical
training.
Since I went from 60 pounds overweight, to teaching fitness classes, who
better?
Edward Dolan
"Child" <da...@alaskaSPAMFREE.com> wrote in message
[...]
> > > Hey Jerry,
> > > I lost about 60 pounds low carbing and found that with distance or
> > > performance cycling I needed to do some carbing up in order to perform
> > well.
> > >
> > > My guiding light in this arena is usually to be found on the
> weightlifting
> > > newsgroup (although I haven't been there in at least a year, so who
> knows
> > > where he is now). This article is likely to be helpful, but its
geared
> > > towards weight training - read it anyway, the concepts are the same.
> > >
> >
>
http://www.thinkmuscle.com/articles/mcdonald/carb-up-and-ketogenic-diet.htm
> > >
> > > If I were going to train for a short race like a 10K, I would be doing
> > > intervals. In my experience there is no faster way to improve your
> cardio
> > > fitness than intervals.
Edward Dolan wrote:
> >
> > If you were 60 pounds overweight, you should not be doing any running or
> > cycling at all. You should be in a hospital getting a stomach by-pass.
> > Frankly, I do not know how anyone in this world gets to be 60 pounds
> > overweight! You must have to really work at it. How are you able to do
it
> > other than eating like a pig and never moving a muscle. We here on ARBR
> need
> > to know this so we can gauge your level of intelligence.
>
> How would an overweight person lose weight if not to exercise? Silly,
> troll, please try again!
So then, you did eat like a pig and never moved a muscle in order to gain
those extra 60 pounds? But we here on ARBR would like to know your mind set
while you were doing this.
The fact is that all Americans are at least about 20 pounds over weight. I
think we must be the fattest people on earth. I think the reason for it is
that food is plentiful and cheap and we have machines to do all our physical
work for us.
When I was a kid looking at TV there were no remotes and I was constantly
jumping up and down changing the channels. Now that I have a remote the only
thing that ever gets any exercise are my fingers. As is well known, you must
exercise the large muscles of the body (like the leg muscles). Exercising
the small muscles of the body (like the fingers) will do absolutely nothing
for your weight and/or physical fitness. Thus spake Zarathustra!
> > And please, do not insult us with your prescriptions for physical
> training.
>
> Since I went from 60 pounds overweight, to teaching fitness classes, who
> better?
Agreed!
--
Regards,
Ed Dolan - Minnesota
Mark Leuck
>
> So then, you did eat like a pig and never moved a muscle in order to gain
> those extra 60 pounds? But we here on ARBR would like to know your mind
set
> while you were doing this.
Ed I doubt you will be satisfied with this answer (nor do I really care) so
this is not directed to you but to others who might be where I was then
2 years ago I was 260 pounds and yes I ate like a pig and never moved a
muscle for most of the previous decade, the mind set is simple in that it
was much easier to do nothing than something. I sat on my ass at work and
sat on my ass at home on the computer, do that long enough and you too will
be up there (if you aren't already). I saw the extra weight and figured it
was all part of the age process (I was 42 then) and that is just the way it
went and the fact I didn't own a scale and therefore never realized (or
really cared) just how bad off I was. I would walk the halls at work and be
out of breath. Order a pizza and have it half devoured by the time I got
home, burgers fries etc, its a lifestyle that was very easy to get into....
While visiting my brother in Denver mid June 2002 I stopped by one of those
GNC stores which had a scale where you inserted 50 cents and it gave you a
slip of paper with your weight and what your optimum weight should be. The
paper said I weighed 259 pounds and was 89 pounds overweight, this was what
finally shocked me enough to do something about it. (I still have the
paper...framed)
Problem was I was too lazy to jog, tried rollerblades (couldn't figure out
how to stop), walking was boring and I knew I'd never consistantly go to a
health spa so biking was the only alternative. I'd tried that 5 years before
and got a cheap mountain bike that lasted about 2 weeks however this time
(in Denver) I noticed a guy riding a wierd looking bike (turned out to be a
Vision R42) up the Rocky Mountains (yes THE Rocky Mountains) and it looked
kinda neat and I figured my fat ass could handle that seat instead of a
standard bike seat, went on the net and looked up recumbent bikes and liked
what I saw with Vision the best (looked better than the others). Turned out
the local shop had an R50 that I could afford but even then I had to think
about it a while until I told myself if I didn't buy it I'd be dead in
another 5 years at the rate I was going (My guess is if I hadn't purchased
that I'd now easily be 300 pounds +)
Ended up doing 2200 miles on the Vision and lost 50 pounds, bought the
Optima Baron July 2003 and so far have lost another 30 and looking to lose
another 10 or 15 (65-170). This year I've done 3 centuries (on the Baron)
and just turned over 4,000 miles, this past weekend I rode 40 miles on
Saturday and 35 miles Sunday at 20+ mph average (21.5 Sat and 20.5 Sun), I
ride between 25 and 30 miles almost every day and blow the doors off of 99%
of the bikers in my area (its my current kick), my goal now is to ride from
Dallas Tx to Hot Springs Arkansas and back (700+ miles) and I have all the
confidence in the world I can and will be able to do it, these days I love
it when I get home with sore legs and I feel guilty if a good day goes by
without my riding, buying the bike transformed more than just my body
This message contained run-on sentences, improper punctuation, no periods at
the end and way too many commas but to be honest I could care less nor do I
really care what your response will be however I also hope you never get to
where I was back then, its not a fun place to be although its been damn fun
getting away
Edward Dolan
"Mark Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:vCmNc.195934$XM6.109154@attbi_s53...
Mark, what you have just written is the best damn post that is on-topic that
I have ever read here! And I know it rings of a truth that bedevils all of
us. You are right. I have got to get off my dead ass and get moving again. I
am starting to worry about congestive heart failure from lack of activity
and I too have gained weight for the first time in my life. I simply can't
believe it. I was a string bean all of my life and now I am starting to look
like a lima bean.
I see you are a night owl like I am. Maybe if we normalize our sleep that
might help us too. Sometimes I am up all night and I am asleep all day. This
interferes enormously with getting out on the bike.
Many thanks for the great post.
Child
My struggle with my weight has been a lifelong project.
I lost a great deal of weight by starving (literally- eating disorder) and
working out excessively in 1996. I managed to overcome the starving thing
and keep my weight relatively normal until quitting smoking in 1998, when I
decided that I would do whatever I needed to do to keep smoke free, which
meant eating lots of sugary things. Sugary things are the death of me. I
gained 60 pounds in a YEAR. I was active the entire time, and my starting
weight was probably lower than my normal weight but still.... 2 years after
quitting smoking I gave up my trigger foods - pasta, rice and sugar and
starting lifting weights. The weight came off slowly but its mostly still
off, but I do fluctuate up and down about 15 pounds, depending on my
committment to eating well. The committment to activity and exercise will be
forever- I feel so much better beings stronger and more active.
> The fact is that all Americans are at least about 20 pounds over weight. I
> think we must be the fattest people on earth. I think the reason for it is
> that food is plentiful and cheap and we have machines to do all our
physical
> work for us.
We are pretty overweight, yes. I personally think its because we eat all
kinds of processed crap instead of real food, and because we fill empty
holes in our lives by filling our mouths.
> When I was a kid looking at TV there were no remotes and I was constantly
> jumping up and down changing the channels. Now that I have a remote the
only
> thing that ever gets any exercise are my fingers. As is well known, you
must
> exercise the large muscles of the body (like the leg muscles). Exercising
> the small muscles of the body (like the fingers) will do absolutely
nothing
> for your weight and/or physical fitness. Thus spake Zarathustra!
LOL! My weight training philosophy is similar - why work out your hamstrings
on a nautilus machine when you can work out the glutes, hams and quads in
one BIG move?
Tom Sherman
> ...
> I lost about 60 pounds...
Landscape to portrait. ;) [Ducks in case someone remembers my smart ass
comment from about 4 years ago.]
--
Tom Sherman – Quad City Area
Child
"Tom Sherman" <tshe...@qconline.com> wrote in message
news:2mol16F...@uni-berlin.de...
> Child wrote:
>
> > ...
> > I lost about 60 pounds...
>
> Landscape to portrait. ;) [Ducks in case someone remembers my smart ass
> comment from about 4 years ago.]
LOL, I remember. Its Cletus who forgets!
Edward Dolan
"Child" <da...@alaskaSPAMFREE.com> wrote in message
OK Beth! You win! I really do not like to make fun of fat people because it
is something that can very easily befall any of us. I will say that once you
get beyond middle age, it is just about impossible to lose any weight.
There was a guy out in the ally standing against a dumpster this afternoon.
His belly was almost touching the ground. I thought at first he was looking
for something in the dumpster. As I approached him to ask if there was
anything wrong, all I could hear was really heavy breathing. No, everything
was all right. He was just stopping to catch his breath.
That man was dying right in front of me. He was hardly even middle age. I
got very depressed about this. I see that obesity has now become a disease -
which it clearly is. I do not think there is anything more difficult than to
lose weight. The best thing is never to put it on in the first place. But
too late we get wise.
Cycling is not a bad activity for losing weight provide you keep at if for
very long periods of time. I think walking might actually be better for you
overall though. The younger guys here are into running for a half hour or
so. They do that because they do not have much free time and they want to
get it over fast. I think you have to do at least about 2 hours of cycling
pushing yourself at a moderate level in order to derive any benefit from it.
One hour is just not enough.
Edward Dolan
Good Grief Tom! You have been on this newsgroup 4 years? You must be one of
the oldest of the old-timers. Does Beth go back that far too?
Child
I win what? Are we having a contest? You asked me, rather rudely, how I
got fat in the first place. I shared my story. What's there to "win"?
> There was a guy out in the ally standing against a dumpster this
afternoon.
> His belly was almost touching the ground. I thought at first he was
looking
> for something in the dumpster. As I approached him to ask if there was
> anything wrong, all I could hear was really heavy breathing. No,
everything
> was all right. He was just stopping to catch his breath.
>
> That man was dying right in front of me. He was hardly even middle age. I
> got very depressed about this. I see that obesity has now become a
disease -
> which it clearly is. I do not think there is anything more difficult than
to
> lose weight. The best thing is never to put it on in the first place. But
> too late we get wise.
In my opinion, which is only slightly educated on this subject, that those
people who are extremely overweight have something seriously wrong with
them. I have a friend who got gastric bypass surgery at 26 years old. It
was hard for me to accept that getting the surgery was healthier for her
than being 275 pounds. Now that I see the life she has thinner I know that
even if the surgery shortens her life in some way it was worth it. She
lives a much happier life now.
> Cycling is not a bad activity for losing weight provide you keep at if for
> very long periods of time. I think walking might actually be better for
you
> overall though. The younger guys here are into running for a half hour or
> so. They do that because they do not have much free time and they want to
> get it over fast. I think you have to do at least about 2 hours of cycling
> pushing yourself at a moderate level in order to derive any benefit from
it.
> One hour is just not enough.
Running is really hard on the joints, and for someone who is substantially
overweight, its really pretty uncomfortable. Imagine running with a fifty
pound bag of potatoes tied to your torso. Cycling is great because its not
high impact. An hour is enough, if you are willing to actively train - but
I prefer to ride for kicks. I push it moderately and save my intervals for
the gym. That way if I fall over there are trained fitness professionals to
help pick me up off the floor.
Personally, walking is the biggest waste of my personal exercise time - its
better than not moving at all, but I don't suscribe to the idea that you
burn "more fat" if you walk, than if you really get your heart rate up.
Certainly, you burn a higher PERCENTAGE of calories from fat, but the
overall caloric burn is so much greater by truly getting that heart rate up
that its negated.
Child
>
> "Tom Sherman" <tshe...@qconline.com> wrote in message
> news:2mol16F...@uni-berlin.de...
> > Child wrote:
> >
> > > ...
> > > I lost about 60 pounds...
> >
> > Landscape to portrait. ;) [Ducks in case someone remembers my smart ass
> > comment from about 4 years ago.]
> >
> > --
>
> Good Grief Tom! You have been on this newsgroup 4 years? You must be one
of
> the oldest of the old-timers. Does Beth go back that far too?
>
I go back to about '99 i think.
Edward Dolan
"Child" <da...@alaskaSPAMFREE.com> wrote in message
> > OK Beth! You win! I really do not like to make fun of fat people because
> it
> > is something that can very easily befall any of us. I will say that once
> you
> > get beyond middle age, it is just about impossible to lose any weight.
>
>
> I win what? Are we having a contest? You asked me, rather rudely, how I
> got fat in the first place. I shared my story. What's there to "win"?
Read the entire paragraph before you leap. I believe I am as clear as a
bell.
As for the rudeness, others on this group seem to look upon you as some kind
of super athlete. You and I both know better, don't we? Anyone who was ever
overweight like you were will not ever be a super athlete. It is necessary
to hit most on this group over the head with a 2 x 4 just to get their
attention.
Really fat people do not have any life at all. But surgery is only for those
who have no other options.
The advantage of walking over all other forms of activity (exercise - I hate
that word) is that is what our evolution has designed us to do. Birds fly,
fishes swim - and we walk. Unfortunately, to get any benefit from it you
have to do an enormous amount of walking which takes an enormous amount of
time. But that is what our evolution has designed us to be doing.
By the way, running is not the same as walking and I do agree with you that
running can be destructive in the extreme. I think we can run short
distances (sprinting) but we are not designed for long distance running
(marathons). The very first marathon runner (ancient Greece) died at the end
of his run.
I have also read that cycling slow and long will burn fat better than
cycling fast and short. Apparently, when you are cycling fast all you are
burning are carbohydrates, but when you cycling more slowly you began to
burn the fat.
The bottom line though is that most people do not have time for anything
much anymore. It always amazes me that with all the time saving gadgets we
have invented for ourselves over the past couple of generations, we seem to
have even less time than our did our ancestors.
Child
>
> "Child" <da...@alaskaSPAMFREE.com> wrote in message
> news:10gg168...@corp.supernews.com...
> >
> > "Edward Dolan" <edo...@iw.net> wrote in message
> > news:pcednU6aYbO...@prairiewave.com...
> [...]
> > > OK Beth! You win! I really do not like to make fun of fat people
because
> > it
> > > is something that can very easily befall any of us. I will say that
once
> > you
> > > get beyond middle age, it is just about impossible to lose any weight.
> >
> >
> > I win what? Are we having a contest? You asked me, rather rudely, how
I
> > got fat in the first place. I shared my story. What's there to "win"?
>
> Read the entire paragraph before you leap. I believe I am as clear as a
> bell.
>
> As for the rudeness, others on this group seem to look upon you as some
kind
> of super athlete. You and I both know better, don't we? Anyone who was
ever
> overweight like you were will not ever be a super athlete. It is necessary
> to hit most on this group over the head with a 2 x 4 just to get their
> attention.
ROFLMAO! No one on this newsgroup views me as a super athelete! I have no
idea where you got that idea. There are people on here who ride back to
back centuries and commute to work on their bikes on Monday and they aren't
me. We have riders who are amazingly fast... I am not one of them!
I do however have excellent advice for those embarking on a journey of
fitness, having been there and done that several times. One of the
problems I have with the fitness industry is that the people who are
teaching others how to "get fit" went into that field because they are "good
at it" - they are naturally a healthy sized and fit person. I remember when
I first moved to Alaska and no one ever had known I had a weight problem I
was dating the director of a fitness center. Our first argument ensued when
he started talking about how if fat people would just "move around a little
instead of eating oreos all day". Needless to say I corrected his way of
thinking quickly. He was a person who truly was slim and fit with very
little effort - and it occured to me that unless he had been overweight he
couldn't understand that for some people the effort to be slim and fit was a
huge undertaking, and not just a no-brainer. I decided to study to be
become a fitness trainer and became certified (that certification has
lapsed) so that I could help people like me - for whom losing weight isn't
just a matter of cutting out oreos and getting on the stair stepper three
times a week.
I think perhaps you are like my ex-boyfriend the fitness trainer.
I have a friend who has lost 38 pounds over the last year just by walking
and watching her intake of calories. Thats great! I still like the
challenge of interval training for my cardio work. Can't do intervals
walking!
> By the way, running is not the same as walking and I do agree with you
that
> running can be destructive in the extreme. I think we can run short
> distances (sprinting) but we are not designed for long distance running
> (marathons). The very first marathon runner (ancient Greece) died at the
end
> of his run.
I didn't know that and will share with my marathon running friends.
> I have also read that cycling slow and long will burn fat better than
> cycling fast and short. Apparently, when you are cycling fast all you are
> burning are carbohydrates, but when you cycling more slowly you began to
> burn the fat.
Again, this is the issue I explained earlier - you burn a higher PERCENTAGE
of fat when your heart rate is lower, but the calorie burn rate is so much
higher when you kick it into gear that the total amount of fat burned is
much higher when you work at a higher heart rate.
Edward Dolan
"Child" <da...@alaskaSPAMFREE.com> wrote in message
Beth, I have already stated that losing weight is the most difficult thing
in the world. I have nothing but sympathy for those who are over weight.
Here is a story you might enjoy. I was always a very skinny fellow. When I
was in school I wanted to gain weight in the worst sort of way. I pigged out
on milk shakes and everything else I could think of to put on some weight.
No way could I even gain a single ounce.
Finally, by age 40 I could see that I could finally put on some weight. But
the full catastrophe did not begin until I turned age 60. Now putting on
weight is a no-brainer. It is the easiest thing in the world. But taking it
off is the hardest thing in the world.
The moral of this little story is to be careful what you wish for.
Edward Dolan
"Child" <da...@alaskaSPAMFREE.com> wrote in message
> > By the way, running is not the same as walking and I do agree with you
> that
> > running can be destructive in the extreme. I think we can run short
> > distances (sprinting) but we are not designed for long distance running
> > (marathons). The very first marathon runner (ancient Greece) died at the
> end
> > of his run.
>
> I didn't know that and will share with my marathon running friends.
Here are maybe some things you didn't know about Marathon. I learned all
this in 8th grade history. As you can see from this, Marathon is a name that
rings down through Western history. It is really not about running at all,
but was about a great battle that was fought between the orient and
occident - kind of like what is going on in the world today.
The Marathon Story
The Battle that Changed Human History
By Paul Ostapuk
Setting the Stage
The first two decades of the fifth century B.C. marked one of the great
turning points in world history. These were the years of the Persian and
Greek wars. The powerful Persian Empire in 546 B.C. extended from Asia to
Eygpt to what is now Turkey. This great empire built the first Suez Canal
which linked the Mediterranean Sea with the Red Sea.
Greece on the other hand, consisted of a scattering of independent
city-states, called poleis. These early city-states spawned the democratic
ideas that have persisted into modern times. Athens eventually became the
largest and most prosperous polis. Another Greek polis, Sparta, was not so
democratic. They kept their kings and maintained a conservative, regimented
society built around military training and the art of war.
The Persian/Greek War
The Persian Empire over the years expanded to the Mediterrean Sea. In the
process some Greek settlements were conquered. Ionia was one such settlement
. After many years, they tried to revolt against the Persians but the
uprising was immediately squashed by the powerful Persian Army. By the year
490 B.C., the Persian Army was ready to expand their territory and move into
Europe. They landed a large force just outside of Athens on the plains of
Marathon and prepared for attack.
The Role of Phidippides
The Athens, vastly outnumbered, desperately needed the help of Sparta's
military base to help fend off the attack. Time was short, so the Athenian
generals send Phidippides (or Philippides) a professional runner to Sparta
to ask for help. The 140 mile course was very mountainous and rugged.
Phidippides ran the course in about 36 hours. Sparta agreed to help but said
they would not take the field until the moon was full due to religious laws.
This would leave the Athenians alone to fight the Persian Army. Phidippides
ran back to Athens (another 140 miles!) with the disappointing news.
Immediately, the small Athenian Army (including Phidippedes) marched to the
plains of Marathon to prepare for battle.
The Battle of Marathon
The Athenian Army was outnumbered 4 to 1 but they launched a suprise
offensive thrust which at the time appeared suicidal. But by day's end, 6400
Persian bodies lay dead on the field while only 192 Athenians had been
killed. The surviving Persians fled to sea and headed south to Athens where
they hoped to attack the city before the Greek Army could re-assemble there.
Phidippides was again called upon to run to Athens (26 miles away) to carry
the news of the victory and the warning about the approaching Persian ships.
Despite his fatigue after his recent run to Sparta and back and having
fought all morning in heavy armor, Phidippides rose to the challenge.
Pushing himself past normal limits of human endurance, the reached Athens in
perhaps 3 hours, deliverd his message and then died shortly thereafter from
exhaustion.
Sparta and the other Greek polies eventually came to the aid of Athens and
eventually they were able to turn back the Persian attempt to conquer
Greece.
Concluding Remarks and Beginning of Olympic Marathon Races
The Greek victory marked one of the decisive events of world history because
it kept an Eastern power (the persians) from conquering what is now Europe.
The victory gave the Greeks incredible confidence in themselves, their
government and their culture.
In the two centuries that followed, the Greek culture spread across much of
the known world. It made Europe possible and in affect won for civilization
the opportunity to develop its own ecomomic life.
Modern European-based nations such as the United States and Canada can trace
their growth straight back through an unbroken chain of Western historical
events back to the Victory at Marathon.
Centuries later, the modern Olympic Games introduced a "marathon" race of
(40,000 meters or 24.85 miles). The winner was Spiridon Louis, a Greek
postal worker from village of Marusi and veteran of several long military
marches , His time was 2 hours, 58 minutes, 50 seconds for the 40 kilometer
distance (average pace of 7:11 minutes per mile).
At the 1908 Olympic Games in London, the marathon distance was changed to 26
miles to cover the ground from Windsor Castleto White City stadium, with 385
yards added on so the race could finish in front of King Edward VII's royal
box. After 16 years of extremely heated discussion, this 26.2 mile distance
was established at the 1924 Olympics in Paris as the official marathon
distance.
Edward Dolan
"Child" <da...@alaskaSPAMFREE.com> wrote in message
I would be interested to know if there are any others who go back on this
newsgroup more than 4 years. That is an incredibly long time to stay on a
newsgroup it seems to me. I have been here almost 2 years now and feel I
have outworn any welcome I ever had. I am getting ready to move on to
greener pastures and I will not let the door hit me in the ass as I leave.
When it is time for me to say goodbye, it will be the longest goodbye in
Usenet history. I have everyone's name recorded in my black book with their
various characteristics and I will have a little something to say about all
of you.
Child
> Finally, by age 40 I could see that I could finally put on some weight.
But
> the full catastrophe did not begin until I turned age 60. Now putting on
> weight is a no-brainer. It is the easiest thing in the world. But taking
it
> off is the hardest thing in the world.
I know a gentleman who like you, was a continual string-bean and now, in his
fifties, still cant' put on weight. He hates it.
I only wish I had his metabolism. But I suspect if I were man I would
prefer to be slightly overweight than underweight.
Child
> > I go back to about '99 i think.
>
> I would be interested to know if there are any others who go back on this
> newsgroup more than 4 years. That is an incredibly long time to stay on a
> newsgroup it seems to me. I have been here almost 2 years now and feel I
> have outworn any welcome I ever had. I am getting ready to move on to
> greener pastures and I will not let the door hit me in the ass as I leave.
Thats probably why I haven't been here in a while. There is only so long I
can discuss the virtues of presta vs schrader.
> When it is time for me to say goodbye, it will be the longest goodbye in
> Usenet history. I have everyone's name recorded in my black book with
their
> various characteristics and I will have a little something to say about
all
> of you.
ROFLMAO!! Do you imagine that folks really care what someone on usenet
thinks of them? Can we all give you an analysis of what we think of you at
that time as well?
Edward Dolan
"Child" <da...@alaskaSPAMFREE.com> wrote in message
Nope! I only care what I think and I have already been fully informed on
innumerable occasions what others think of me. But they have not yet heard
what I think of them (calling names does not count - that is just fun and
games).
By the way, Usenet, as it is being played out here on ARBR, is really quite
a cozy little group. All we are doing is just passing emails back and forth
which others can get in on. No one here is anonymous - and I have never met
anyone in my life who didn't care what someone else might think of him.
Tom Sherman
> ...
> The bottom line though is that most people do not have time for anything
> much anymore. It always amazes me that with all the time saving gadgets we
> have invented for ourselves over the past couple of generations, we seem to
> have even less time than our did our ancestors.
Real wages for all but top executives in the US have been falling for
the last three decades - see the connection between that and less free time?
Tom Sherman
> ...
> Running is really hard on the joints, and for someone who is substantially
> overweight, its really pretty uncomfortable. Imagine running with a fifty
> pound bag of potatoes tied to your torso....
That is why the dog scooter was invented.
Tom Sherman
> Good Grief Tom! You have been on this newsgroup 4 years? You must be one of
> the oldest of the old-timers. Does Beth go back that far too?
It will be 5 years in October.
Child
> Nope! I only care what I think and I have already been fully informed on
> innumerable occasions what others think of me. But they have not yet heard
> what I think of them (calling names does not count - that is just fun and
> games).
And they probably could give a flying fuck.
> By the way, Usenet, as it is being played out here on ARBR, is really
quite
> a cozy little group. All we are doing is just passing emails back and
forth
> which others can get in on. No one here is anonymous - and I have never
met
> anyone in my life who didn't care what someone else might think of him.
I certainly care professionally what people think of me, but I could care
less what you think of me.
Child
> Child wrote:
>
> > ...
> > Running is really hard on the joints, and for someone who is
substantially
> > overweight, its really pretty uncomfortable. Imagine running with a
fifty
> > pound bag of potatoes tied to your torso....
>
> That is why the dog scooter was invented.
LOL, my boys prefer a sled these days, but they scooter on occasion.
Edward Dolan
"Child" <da...@alaskaSPAMFREE.com> wrote in message
>
> "Edward Dolan" <edo...@iw.net> wrote in message
> news:VoOdnTbuR7c...@prairiewave.com...
>
> > Nope! I only care what I think and I have already been fully informed on
> > innumerable occasions what others think of me. But they have not yet
heard
> > what I think of them (calling names does not count - that is just fun
and
> > games).
>
> And they probably could give a flying fuck.
But I will have the satisfaction of telling them what I think of them,
including you too. And I know everyone will read what I have to say about
them, including you too.
By the way, it is one thing for men to use rough language, but women really
should not enter into this particular arena. You do not want us to think you
are a slut and a whore do you?
>
> > By the way, Usenet, as it is being played out here on ARBR, is really
> quite
> > a cozy little group. All we are doing is just passing emails back and
> forth
> > which others can get in on. No one here is anonymous - and I have never
> met
> > anyone in my life who didn't care what someone else might think of him.
>
>
> I certainly care professionally what people think of me, but I could care
> less what you think of me.
So says Beth of Anchorage, Alaska, but I think she does protest too much!
If you write professionally like you do to this newsgroup, I can already
tell you what others think of you. But it is never much fun to be judged and
found wanting. I don't blame you for being concerned about your standing
both professionally and on this newsgroup.
Child
>
> "Child" <da...@alaskaSPAMFREE.com> wrote in message
> news:10gtd4q...@corp.supernews.com...
> >
> > "Edward Dolan" <edo...@iw.net> wrote in message
> > news:VoOdnTbuR7c...@prairiewave.com...
> >
> > > Nope! I only care what I think and I have already been fully informed
on
> > > innumerable occasions what others think of me. But they have not yet
> heard
> > > what I think of them (calling names does not count - that is just fun
> and
> > > games).
> >
> > And they probably could give a flying fuck.
>
> But I will have the satisfaction of telling them what I think of them,
> including you too. And I know everyone will read what I have to say about
> them, including you too.
You have fun!
> By the way, it is one thing for men to use rough language, but women
really
> should not enter into this particular arena. You do not want us to think
you
> are a slut and a whore do you?
I think you might be a tad confused. A whore fucks for money, a slut just
fucks around and I just say fuck. Nothing whorish or slutty about it.
Crude and uncouth certainly. But its crude and uncouth when men do it as
well.
> >
> > > By the way, Usenet, as it is being played out here on ARBR, is really
> > quite
> > > a cozy little group. All we are doing is just passing emails back and
> > forth
> > > which others can get in on. No one here is anonymous - and I have
never
> > met
> > > anyone in my life who didn't care what someone else might think of
him.
> >
> >
> > I certainly care professionally what people think of me, but I could
care
> > less what you think of me.
>
> So says Beth of Anchorage, Alaska, but I think she does protest too much!
>
> If you write professionally like you do to this newsgroup, I can already
> tell you what others think of you. But it is never much fun to be judged
and
> found wanting. I don't blame you for being concerned about your standing
> both professionally and on this newsgroup.
Certainly, my professional writing is different than usenet writing. Doh!
Edward Dolan
"Child" <da...@alaskaSPAMFREE.com> wrote in message
[,,,]
> > By the way, it is one thing for men to use rough language, but women
> really
> > should not enter into this particular arena. You do not want us to think
> you
> > are a slut and a whore do you?
>
> I think you might be a tad confused. A whore fucks for money, a slut just
> fucks around and I just say fuck. Nothing whorish or slutty about it.
> Crude and uncouth certainly. But its crude and uncouth when men do it as
> well.
No, we men can get away with murder because that is the kind of slobs we
are. We are to the manner born. But for a woman to do it is many steps down
the ladder of evolution. You do not ever want to play at these kind of games
with men. You will lose every time because with you it is nothing but an
affectation whereas with us men it comes naturally. Trust me on this. You
are going to make a god-awful fool of yourself if you persist in your
nonsense.
The fact is that you are what you say. Language counts - whether it is
written or spoken. I am really surprised you do not know this. Did you skip
kindergarten?
[...]
> > If you write professionally like you do to this newsgroup, I can already
> > tell you what others think of you. But it is never much fun to be judged
> and
> > found wanting. I don't blame you for being concerned about your standing
> > both professionally and on this newsgroup.
>
>
> Certainly, my professional writing is different than usenet writing. Doh!
Prove it! Frankly, I doubt it. I don't think you know how to write well.
Child
No, you are nothing more than a sexist, believing men are naturally coarse
and crude and women are sweetness and light. Neither generalization is true,
nor fair to either gender.
> The fact is that you are what you say. Language counts - whether it is
> written or spoken. I am really surprised you do not know this. Did you
skip
> kindergarten?
You are what you say.
I am much more than a bunch of words. Actions speak louder, and all that
jazz.
> > > If you write professionally like you do to this newsgroup, I can
already
> > > tell you what others think of you. But it is never much fun to be
judged
> > and
> > > found wanting. I don't blame you for being concerned about your
standing
> > > both professionally and on this newsgroup.
> >
> >
> > Certainly, my professional writing is different than usenet writing.
Doh!
>
> Prove it! Frankly, I doubt it. I don't think you know how to write well.
LOL, I don't need to prove anything to you, Eddie.
Edward Dolan
"Child" <da...@alaskaSPAMFREE.com> wrote in message
Obviously, you have not spent 60 years reading newspapers like I have.
> > The fact is that you are what you say. Language counts - whether it is
> > written or spoken. I am really surprised you do not know this. Did you
> skip
> > kindergarten?
>
> You are what you say.
>
> I am much more than a bunch of words. Actions speak louder, and all that
> jazz.
Not really! Man is THE creature of the word. No other animal has words.
Speaking and writing words is also an action. Your contempt for words marks
you as an ignoramus of the first rank.
Do you not recall what I said about the Jews being the people of the Book.
There is nothing in that Book except words. Without the Book, the Jews would
most likely not even exist today. They would have gone extinct long ago with
all those other ancient peoples.
>
> > > > If you write professionally like you do to this newsgroup, I can
> already
> > > > tell you what others think of you. But it is never much fun to be
> judged
> > > and
> > > > found wanting. I don't blame you for being concerned about your
> standing
> > > > both professionally and on this newsgroup.
> > >
> > >
> > > Certainly, my professional writing is different than usenet writing.
> Doh!
> >
> > Prove it! Frankly, I doubt it. I don't think you know how to write well.
>
>
> LOL, I don't need to prove anything to you, Eddie.
You say you write differently professionally than you do on this newsgroup.
I say I do not believe you because I think you are incapable of it. Do you
really think I give a damn whether you prove it to me or not? But there are
many others reading these messages. You might want to consider where you
stand with them right about now.
Child
>
> "Child" <da...@alaskaSPAMFREE.com> wrote in message
coarse
> > and crude and women are sweetness and light. Neither generalization is
> true,
> > nor fair to either gender.
>
> Obviously, you have not spent 60 years reading newspapers like I have.
only 25 years.
> Not really! Man is THE creature of the word. No other animal has words.
> Speaking and writing words is also an action. Your contempt for words
marks
> you as an ignoramus of the first rank.
>
> Do you not recall what I said about the Jews being the people of the Book.
> There is nothing in that Book except words. Without the Book, the Jews
would
> most likely not even exist today. They would have gone extinct long ago
with
> all those other ancient peoples.
LOL, you don't understand jews at all. Its not the WORDS, its the IDEAS.
Being able to express ideas and debate ideas is key - whether you can write
"properly" isn't. Its all about verbal debate, not about the written word.
We jews love to argue. Thus, my love of debating you and others on usenet.
And I do so in a conversational manner - as if we were speaking. Again, its
part of my heritage.
> > > Prove it! Frankly, I doubt it. I don't think you know how to write
well.
> >
> >
> > LOL, I don't need to prove anything to you, Eddie.
>
> You say you write differently professionally than you do on this
newsgroup.
> I say I do not believe you because I think you are incapable of it. Do you
> really think I give a damn whether you prove it to me or not? But there
are
> many others reading these messages. You might want to consider where you
> stand with them right about now.
I am well respected in this newgroup - far better respected than you are.
Professionally, I write well, and am well respected by my peers for it. I
stand just fine, despite preferring to write newsgroup conversation like
real human interaction.
Tom Sherman
> ...
> I think you might be a tad confused. A whore fucks for money, a slut just
> fucks around and I just say fuck. Nothing whorish or slutty about it.
> Crude and uncouth certainly. But its crude and uncouth when men do it as
> well....
I can only imagine what Mr. Ed's reaction to the {in)famous picture of
Beth and her two friends would be. ;)
Tom Sherman
> ...
> Do you not recall what I said about the Jews being the people of the Book.
> There is nothing in that Book except words. Without the Book, the Jews would
> most likely not even exist today. They would have gone extinct long ago with
> all those other ancient peoples....
The "Book" is now (partially) available with illustrations in Lego [TM]. ;)
<http://www.thebricktestament.com/>
Edward Dolan
"Child" <da...@alaskaSPAMFREE.com> wrote in message
> > Not really! Man is THE creature of the word. No other animal has words.
> > Speaking and writing words is also an action. Your contempt for words
> marks
> > you as an ignoramus of the first rank.
> >
> > Do you not recall what I said about the Jews being the people of the
Book.
> > There is nothing in that Book except words. Without the Book, the Jews
> would
> > most likely not even exist today. They would have gone extinct long ago
> with
> > all those other ancient peoples.
>
> LOL, you don't understand jews at all. Its not the WORDS, its the IDEAS.
> Being able to express ideas and debate ideas is key - whether you can
write
> "properly" isn't. Its all about verbal debate, not about the written
word.
> We jews love to argue. Thus, my love of debating you and others on
usenet.
> And I do so in a conversational manner - as if we were speaking. Again,
its
> part of my heritage.
Those ideas would not even exist had they not been written down in words and
then loving preserved by the Jews as their sacred text. Those peoples with
nothing but an oral tradition not only soon disappear from history, but they
are not even known except for their archeological artifacts. Of course words
represent ideas, but the words are inseparable from the ideas. It is not
even possible to think without words.
Conversation is not writing. They are two different things entirely. You are
writing on Usenet, you are not conversing.
[...]
> I am well respected in this newgroup - far better respected than you are.
> Professionally, I write well, and am well respected by my peers for it. I
> stand just fine, despite preferring to write newsgroup conversation like
> real human interaction.
You know there is at least one person on this group who does not think much
of you because of your contempt for the written word. There are no doubt
many others here who do not think much of you for this reason also. There
are always costs exacted for defying convention. Those who do not know
better can be excused. Those who know better can never be excused.
I do not see any relationship between Usenet and real human interaction. We
are essentially writing letters to one another which the whole world can
read and get in on. It simply boggles my mind that you cannot realize this
and act accordingly (write better). I believe your family of scholars would
be ashamed of you if they knew you were carrying on in this disgraceful
manner (not writing better).
Edward Dolan
Tom, I do not know how you are able to dredge up this kind of foolishness. I
can't seem to find anything on the Internet.
I remember a phrase from my Bible studies in another lifetime (we Catholics
are not big on the Bible) about the importance of the word. I think it went
something like this: "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with
God, and the word was God."
I wonder if I am just imagining this or if it exists somewhere in the Bible.
If it exists, that shoots Beth's idea that words don't much matter and that
we can treat them with contempt by writing them anyway we want without
observing the conventions.
Edward Dolan
Without having any idea what Mr. Tom might be referring to, I think it would
be best that I never see such a picture if it reflects badly on Beth. I am
having enough trouble trying to get her up to speed on her writing without
getting into her morals.
Child
> > LOL, you don't understand jews at all. Its not the WORDS, its the
IDEAS.
> > Being able to express ideas and debate ideas is key - whether you can
> write
> > "properly" isn't. Its all about verbal debate, not about the written
> word.
> > We jews love to argue. Thus, my love of debating you and others on
> usenet.
> > And I do so in a conversational manner - as if we were speaking. Again,
> its
> > part of my heritage.
>
> Those ideas would not even exist had they not been written down in words
and
> then loving preserved by the Jews as their sacred text. Those peoples with
> nothing but an oral tradition not only soon disappear from history, but
they
> are not even known except for their archeological artifacts. Of course
words
> represent ideas, but the words are inseparable from the ideas. It is not
> even possible to think without words.
Whats that got to do with the price of asparagus in Minneapolis?
Traditionally, jewish religious education was all about ARGUING VERBALLY
about the torah. Its as simple as that. Its not about writing. Its about
verbal debate.
> Conversation is not writing. They are two different things entirely. You
are
> writing on Usenet, you are not conversing.
> [...]
No...YOU are writing. I am conversing.
> > I am well respected in this newgroup - far better respected than you
are.
> > Professionally, I write well, and am well respected by my peers for it.
I
> > stand just fine, despite preferring to write newsgroup conversation like
> > real human interaction.
>
> You know there is at least one person on this group who does not think
much
> of you because of your contempt for the written word. There are no doubt
> many others here who do not think much of you for this reason also. There
> are always costs exacted for defying convention. Those who do not know
> better can be excused. Those who know better can never be excused.
Actually, I think its you who is defying convention. Most usenet denizens
recognize this as a casual discussion, not a literary society.
> I do not see any relationship between Usenet and real human interaction.
We
> are essentially writing letters to one another which the whole world can
> read and get in on. It simply boggles my mind that you cannot realize this
> and act accordingly (write better). I believe your family of scholars
would
> be ashamed of you if they knew you were carrying on in this disgraceful
> manner (not writing better).
LOL, and what would yours think about you trying to be "boss of the
internet"? Your imaginary standards aren't reality.
Child
> If it exists, that shoots Beth's idea that words don't much matter and
that
> we can treat them with contempt by writing them anyway we want without
> observing the conventions.
Nope, thats not my idea at all. My idea is that the ability to express
ideas on usenet isnt' restricted by your ideas about what "good writing"
is.
Edward Dolan
"Child" <da...@alaskaSPAMFREE.com> wrote in message
There has got to be something wrong with the way your brain works.
You are arguing verbally with one another about the written word as it
exists in your sacred texts. Without the written word, none of you would
have anything to say to one another and, in fact, the Jews as a people
would not even exist. It is your sacred texts that have ensured the survival
of the Jews down though history. You tell me why you think you are still
here as a people and the Philistines are not? Without the written word and
the importance that the Jews have given it they would not have survived down
through the ages. You would have gone the way of the Philistines.
>
> > Conversation is not writing. They are two different things entirely. You
> are
> > writing on Usenet, you are not conversing.
> > [...]
>
> No...YOU are writing. I am conversing.
Every time you peck at your keyboard to send a message, you are writing. I
am SEEING what you say, not HEARING what you say. In that lies all the
difference.
> > > I am well respected in this newgroup - far better respected than you
> are.
> > > Professionally, I write well, and am well respected by my peers for
it.
> I
> > > stand just fine, despite preferring to write newsgroup conversation
like
> > > real human interaction.
> >
> > You know there is at least one person on this group who does not think
> much
> > of you because of your contempt for the written word. There are no doubt
> > many others here who do not think much of you for this reason also.
There
> > are always costs exacted for defying convention. Those who do not know
> > better can be excused. Those who know better can never be excused.
>
> Actually, I think its you who is defying convention. Most usenet denizens
> recognize this as a casual discussion, not a literary society.
Writing is writing, speaking is speaking. They are two different things.
Most on Usenet should not be here in the first place because they do not
know how to write. But you do and so I hold you culpable.
>
> > I do not see any relationship between Usenet and real human interaction.
> We
> > are essentially writing letters to one another which the whole world can
> > read and get in on. It simply boggles my mind that you cannot realize
this
> > and act accordingly (write better). I believe your family of scholars
> would
> > be ashamed of you if they knew you were carrying on in this disgraceful
> > manner (not writing better).
>
>
> LOL, and what would yours think about you trying to be "boss of the
> internet"? Your imaginary standards aren't reality.
I send these messages of mine to my brother and sister for their amusement
and education. Maybe you should do likewise. You might be shocked at what
your parents and your brother think of how you are conducting yourself here.
Any standards I appeal to are not my standards but the standards that have
prevailed for hundreds of years among all those with a minimum of education.
I cannot believe that a person of Jewish heritage would purposely run the
written word into the ground when the Jews are preeminently the people of
the Book.
--
Edward Dolan
"Child" <da...@alaskaSPAMFREE.com> wrote in message
They are not my ideas but the ideas of all minimally educated persons who
believe that culture counts for something in this world.
Actually, I detect that you are writing somewhat better now than formerly.
All you need do is mind a few p's and q's and you will almost be up to the
mark. You do not ever want to be where slugger is at, do you?
Rasmus M?ller
> "Tom Sherman" <tshe...@qconline.com> wrote in message
> news:2naognF...@uni-berlin.de...
> > Edward Dolan wrote:
> >
> > > ...
> > > Do you not recall what I said about the Jews being the people of the
> Book.
> > > There is nothing in that Book except words. Without the Book, the Jews
> would
> > > most likely not even exist today. They would have gone extinct long ago
> with
> > > all those other ancient peoples....
<snip>
> I remember a phrase from my Bible studies in another lifetime (we Catholics
> are not big on the Bible) about the importance of the word. I think it went
> something like this: "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with
> God, and the word was God."
>
> I wonder if I am just imagining this or if it exists somewhere in the Bible.
>
> If it exists, that shoots Beth's idea that words don't much matter and that
> we can treat them with contempt by writing them anyway we want without
> observing the conventions.
Hello,
The passage is the beginning of the Gospel of St. John.
As such, Jews (except the few christian ones) are not likely
to recognize it to speak with any authority to them.
Btw. I believe that for many centuries the Torah was passed on
orally, and the Jews would thus train and value exact memorizing
very much. It was finally written down in Greek in Alexandria in
Egypt, because the large Jewish community there did not speak Hebrew.
yours truly
Rasmus Møller
(yet another dane, Lutheran)
Curtis L. Russell
wrote:
>
>The passage is the beginning of the Gospel of St. John.
>As such, Jews (except the few christian ones) are not likely
>to recognize it to speak with any authority to them.
And in most editions it is capitalized and refers to use of Word back
to its early mystical force. Far more likely to be akin to the awe of
the spoken references to the mystical than any written source.
Interestingly, the Word is often considered to also be a feminine
aspect of the Trinity (in the case of faiths believing in the Trinity)
or God nature, for those either Unitarian or pantheisitic. The passage
mentioned is a primary passage of the Wisdom Goddess or the Sophia
Tradition.
FWIW, it also has counterparts in Jewish mystical thought, although
it splits the equivalent of the Word into Chokhman, Binah and Da'at,
whch are respectively masculine, feminine and the child. The first is
the unknowable source of wisdom, the second the receptacle (and
transmitter) of wisdom and the third is knowledge. I personally would
equate the second most easily with the Word in most Trinitarian
thought and with the Greek Wisdom concept, but not so much that I
would argue the point against anyone that seemed to have spent more
time on the subject...
So, yes, some Jews would certainly be able to argue the concept with
some degree of authority. Also, FWIW, much of the above, especially
the Jewish Kabbalah, were primarily oral tradition - to refer back to
another part of the thread, if I understood what the discussion was
about.
Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
Child
> > Traditionally, jewish religious education was all about ARGUING VERBALLY
> > about the torah. Its as simple as that. Its not about writing. Its
about
> > verbal debate.
>
> There has got to be something wrong with the way your brain works.
Actually, i think its that you just aren't getting it.
> You are arguing verbally with one another about the written word as it
> exists in your sacred texts. Without the written word, none of you would
> have anything to say to one another and, in fact, the Jews as a people
> would not even exist. It is your sacred texts that have ensured the
survival
> of the Jews down though history. You tell me why you think you are still
> here as a people and the Philistines are not? Without the written word and
> the importance that the Jews have given it they would not have survived
down
> through the ages. You would have gone the way of the Philistines.
Yes, Jews argue about how to interpret the Torah. But its the ability to
form that verbal argument thats revered - its what was considered education
traditionally.
> > No...YOU are writing. I am conversing.
>
> Every time you peck at your keyboard to send a message, you are writing. I
> am SEEING what you say, not HEARING what you say. In that lies all the
> difference.
There are many professional writers who have conversational, informal
styles, yet they still write. How could that possibly be, Eddie?
> > Actually, I think its you who is defying convention. Most usenet
denizens
> > recognize this as a casual discussion, not a literary society.
>
> Writing is writing, speaking is speaking. They are two different things.
> Most on Usenet should not be here in the first place because they do not
> know how to write. But you do and so I hold you culpable.
I thought you said I didn't know how to write, eddie?
> > LOL, and what would yours think about you trying to be "boss of the
> > internet"? Your imaginary standards aren't reality.
>
> I send these messages of mine to my brother and sister for their amusement
> and education. Maybe you should do likewise. You might be shocked at what
> your parents and your brother think of how you are conducting yourself
here.
My mother, brother and I converse via email frequently. Its informal, full
of half sentences. No need to type full ones.
> Any standards I appeal to are not my standards but the standards that have
> prevailed for hundreds of years among all those with a minimum of
education.
> I cannot believe that a person of Jewish heritage would purposely run the
> written word into the ground when the Jews are preeminently the people of
> the Book.
You know as much about jews as you do about women, Eddie.
Child
>
> "Child" <da...@alaskaSPAMFREE.com> wrote in message
> news:10h2bs6...@corp.supernews.com...
> >
> > "Edward Dolan" <edo...@iw.net> wrote in message
> > news:nYCdnRLbefW...@prairiewave.com...
> >
> > > If it exists, that shoots Beth's idea that words don't much matter and
> > that
> > > we can treat them with contempt by writing them anyway we want without
> > > observing the conventions.
> >
> > Nope, thats not my idea at all. My idea is that the ability to express
> > ideas on usenet isnt' restricted by your ideas about what "good writing"
>
> They are not my ideas but the ideas of all minimally educated persons who
> believe that culture counts for something in this world.
I am certainly minimally eduated, and its not my idea. Evidentally, you
need to stop speaking for ALL minimally educated persons, because some of us
find you full of shit.
> Actually, I detect that you are writing somewhat better now than formerly.
> All you need do is mind a few p's and q's and you will almost be up to the
> mark. You do not ever want to be where slugger is at, do you?
I have no idea who or what "slugger" is, so maybe.
Child
"Curtis L. Russell" <cur...@the-md-russells.org> wrote in message
news:g4u4h0ddgfqnu42ep...@4ax.com...
Thanks Curtis - you apparently know far more about my religious history than
i do!
Curtis L. Russell
wrote:
>Thanks Curtis - you apparently know far more about my religious history than
>i do!
Between working at the Washington DC Jewish Community Center and
sharing the middle space at the Unitarian Universalist Church with the
mixed-marriage Jews, I sometimes think I'll need to learn to speak
Yiddish or Hebrew soon. Trying to find out which is easier, just in
case.
OTOH, its great taking ALL the holidays off. With that and four weeks
vacation, my wife is surprised when I actually go in to work...
Edward Dolan
"Child" <da...@alaskaSPAMFREE.com> wrote in message
>
> "Edward Dolan" <edo...@iw.net> wrote in message
> news:-7ednbxcfsB...@prairiewave.com...
>
> > > Traditionally, jewish religious education was all about ARGUING
VERBALLY
> > > about the torah. Its as simple as that. Its not about writing. Its
> about
> > > verbal debate.
> >
> > There has got to be something wrong with the way your brain works.
>
> Actually, i think its that you just aren't getting it.
>
> > You are arguing verbally with one another about the written word as it
> > exists in your sacred texts. Without the written word, none of you would
> > have anything to say to one another and, in fact, the Jews as a people
> > would not even exist. It is your sacred texts that have ensured the
> survival
> > of the Jews down though history. You tell me why you think you are still
> > here as a people and the Philistines are not? Without the written word
and
> > the importance that the Jews have given it they would not have survived
> down
> > through the ages. You would have gone the way of the Philistines.
>
>
> Yes, Jews argue about how to interpret the Torah. But its the ability to
> form that verbal argument thats revered - its what was considered
education
> traditionally.
No Torah, no verbal arguments, no glue holding the Jews together, no Jews.
The Torah (the WRITTEN WORD) and the reverence in which it is held is the
key. Like I said, the Jews are the people of the Book. Elementary, my dear
Watson!
>
> > > No...YOU are writing. I am conversing.
> >
> > Every time you peck at your keyboard to send a message, you are writing.
I
> > am SEEING what you say, not HEARING what you say. In that lies all the
> > difference.
>
> There are many professional writers who have conversational, informal
> styles, yet they still write. How could that possibly be, Eddie?
Mark Twain could do this, although I find his style tiring in the extreme. A
little bit of it goes a long ways. The rest of us should never attempt it.
Leave the "yokelisms" to the yokels. Informal styles eventually soon pale,
become boring and finally unreadable.
>
> > > Actually, I think its you who is defying convention. Most usenet
> denizens
> > > recognize this as a casual discussion, not a literary society.
> >
> > Writing is writing, speaking is speaking. They are two different things.
> > Most on Usenet should not be here in the first place because they do not
> > know how to write. But you do and so I hold you culpable.
>
> I thought you said I didn't know how to write, eddie?
If I thought you did not know how to write, I would not bother with you the
same way I do not bother with slugger. I know that you do know how to write
but that you refuse to do so for all the wrong reasons.
> > > LOL, and what would yours think about you trying to be "boss of the
> > > internet"? Your imaginary standards aren't reality.
> >
> > I send these messages of mine to my brother and sister for their
amusement
> > and education. Maybe you should do likewise. You might be shocked at
what
> > your parents and your brother think of how you are conducting yourself
> here.
>
> My mother, brother and I converse via email frequently. Its informal,
full
> of half sentences. No need to type full ones.
But your mother does not write like that when it is going to be seen by
outsiders (the public). We both know that don't we.
>
> > Any standards I appeal to are not my standards but the standards that
have
> > prevailed for hundreds of years among all those with a minimum of
> education.
> > I cannot believe that a person of Jewish heritage would purposely run
the
> > written word into the ground when the Jews are preeminently the people
of
> > the Book.
>
>
> You know as much about jews as you do about women, Eddie.
You do not know WHO you are or WHERE you came from. A short stay in Israel
would soon enlighten you. I don't know which is worse, a self-hating Jew or
just an ignorant Jew. You have much to look forward to in life in the way of
getting an education.
Jesus Christ! A Jew who does not even capitalize Jew!
Edward Dolan
"Child" <da...@alaskaSPAMFREE.com> wrote in message
>
> "Edward Dolan" <edo...@iw.net> wrote in message
> news:ypydnVBgT-q...@prairiewave.com...
> >
> > "Child" <da...@alaskaSPAMFREE.com> wrote in message
> > news:10h2bs6...@corp.supernews.com...
> > >
> > > "Edward Dolan" <edo...@iw.net> wrote in message
> > > news:nYCdnRLbefW...@prairiewave.com...
> > >
> > > > If it exists, that shoots Beth's idea that words don't much matter
and
> > > that
> > > > we can treat them with contempt by writing them anyway we want
without
> > > > observing the conventions.
> > >
> > > Nope, thats not my idea at all. My idea is that the ability to
express
> > > ideas on usenet isnt' restricted by your ideas about what "good
writing"
> >
> > They are not my ideas but the ideas of all minimally educated persons
who
> > believe that culture counts for something in this world.
>
> I am certainly minimally eduated, and its not my idea. Evidentally, you
> need to stop speaking for ALL minimally educated persons, because some of
us
> find you full of shit.
A minimal education is not enough as you prove every time you post to this
group. It is also necessary to have some culture to go along with the
education. But certain types of Jews are classically famous for being vulgar
and crude. I see that you like to fulfill that stereotype.
> > Actually, I detect that you are writing somewhat better now than
formerly.
> > All you need do is mind a few p's and q's and you will almost be up to
the
> > mark. You do not ever want to be where slugger is at, do you?
>
>
>
> I have no idea who or what "slugger" is, so maybe.
That is because you are a women and like all women have only very narrow
interests. You do not know what is going on on this newsgroup other than
what strikes your particular fancy of the moment. Do a search under
"slugger" and check out the way he writes. It will only take you a minute
to decide whether or not you want to be like him.
Edward Dolan
"Rasmus M?ller" <AERa...@volcanomail.com> wrote in message
news:8dbb24e7.04080...@posting.google.com...
Exactly so! I looked for it in Genesis but completely forgot about the
Gospels. What we Catholics know about the Bible is not much. We rely on our
Church more than we do Biblical studies.
> Btw. I believe that for many centuries the Torah was passed on
> orally, and the Jews would thus train and value exact memorizing
> very much. It was finally written down in Greek in Alexandria in
> Egypt, because the large Jewish community there did not speak Hebrew.
I find that hard to believe. Most oral traditions are almost always lost
with the passage of time and events. Surely, the Torah (the Old Testament)
must always have existed in written form from very ancient times.
Edward Dolan
"Curtis L. Russell" <cur...@the-md-russells.org> wrote in message
news:g4u4h0ddgfqnu42ep...@4ax.com...
Edward Dolan wrote:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was
God."
> On 5 Aug 2004 10:47:52 -0700, AERa...@volcanomail.com (Rasmus M?ller)
> wrote:
>
> >
> >The passage is the beginning of the Gospel of St. John.
> >As such, Jews (except the few christian ones) are not likely
> >to recognize it to speak with any authority to them.
>
> And in most editions it is capitalized and refers to use of Word back
> to its early mystical force. Far more likely to be akin to the awe of
> the spoken references to the mystical than any written source.
You are undoubtedly right about that. The spoken word long preceded the
written word in all cultures. Very many cultures never developed any written
word at all.
> Interestingly, the Word is often considered to also be a feminine
> aspect of the Trinity (in the case of faiths believing in the Trinity)
> or God nature, for those either Unitarian or pantheisitic. The passage
> mentioned is a primary passage of the Wisdom Goddess or the Sophia
> Tradition.
>
> FWIW, it also has counterparts in Jewish mystical thought, although
> it splits the equivalent of the Word into Chokhman, Binah and Da'at,
> whch are respectively masculine, feminine and the child. The first is
> the unknowable source of wisdom, the second the receptacle (and
> transmitter) of wisdom and the third is knowledge. I personally would
> equate the second most easily with the Word in most Trinitarian
> thought and with the Greek Wisdom concept, but not so much that I
> would argue the point against anyone that seemed to have spent more
> time on the subject...
I am convinced that has never been more than a handful of people in the
entire history of the world who have ever understood the Trinity. Maybe you
have to be Greek (Hellenic) to know what any of this is about. The only way
we Irish Catholics can understand it is by way of reference to the three
leaf clover.
>
> So, yes, some Jews would certainly be able to argue the concept with
> some degree of authority. Also, FWIW, much of the above, especially
> the Jewish Kabbalah, were primarily oral tradition - to refer back to
> another part of the thread, if I understood what the discussion was
> about.
All of the above is very interesting information to say the least. I have
never delved into any of this as religious conceptions (like Greek myths) do
not really interest me at all. It is all one and the same to me. However,
scientific studies have shown rather conclusively that it would not be
possible for us humans to even have any thoughts in our heads if it weren't
for language. Language is all about words and yes, the Word is that
important. We would not even be human without it. We would be apes with
primitive feelings at best.
The great forbidden experiment in sociology would be to take a child and
raise him isolated from all other human contact and most particularly from
human language and see how he turns out - a sort of "wild child" type of
thing. It has never been done in full measure in the entire history of
mankind.
Beth is treating the written word very casually. I do not believe this is in
the Jewish tradition at all. To spend enormous amounts of time arguing about
how to interpret written words bespeaks a great reverence for those written
words. That is why I call the Jews the people of the Book. Furthermore, it
is well known that Jews value education and the arts above all others. This
may relate to their exclusion from many other fields of endeavor due to
their being persecuted down through the ages, but it may very well relate to
the supreme importance they have always attached to their sacred writings.
Frankly, I do not understand a Jew who would denigrate speaking, reading and
writing well. Beth is an enigma to me.
Tom Sherman
> ...
> Jesus Christ! A Jew who does not even capitalize Jew!
A rather odd exclamatory phrase in this context, no?
Child
They disagree.
> > There are many professional writers who have conversational, informal
> > styles, yet they still write. How could that possibly be, Eddie?
>
> Mark Twain could do this, although I find his style tiring in the extreme.
A
> little bit of it goes a long ways. The rest of us should never attempt
it.
> Leave the "yokelisms" to the yokels. Informal styles eventually soon pale,
> become boring and finally unreadable.
I like yokelisms. Keeps me awake. Mark Twain is a good "common" writer,
isn't he?
> > I thought you said I didn't know how to write, eddie?
>
> If I thought you did not know how to write, I would not bother with you
the
> same way I do not bother with slugger. I know that you do know how to
write
> but that you refuse to do so for all the wrong reasons.
Funny, because just the other day you wanted me to prove I can write.
> > > > LOL, and what would yours think about you trying to be "boss of the
> > > > internet"? Your imaginary standards aren't reality.
> > >
> > > I send these messages of mine to my brother and sister for their
> amusement
> > > and education. Maybe you should do likewise. You might be shocked at
> what
> > > your parents and your brother think of how you are conducting yourself
> > here.
> >
> > My mother, brother and I converse via email frequently. Its informal,
> full
> > of half sentences. No need to type full ones.
>
> But your mother does not write like that when it is going to be seen by
> outsiders (the public). We both know that don't we.
you mean, "We both know that, don't we?"
I think my informal style is rubbing off, or you have been drinking!
And you aren't "the public" or rather - this isn't "my public" - this is my
community of pals!
> > You know as much about jews as you do about women, Eddie.
>
> You do not know WHO you are or WHERE you came from. A short stay in Israel
> would soon enlighten you. I don't know which is worse, a self-hating Jew
or
> just an ignorant Jew. You have much to look forward to in life in the way
of
> getting an education.
I have spent many months in Israel. My brother lived there for about 6
years.
> Jesus Christ! A Jew who does not even capitalize Jew!
Thats deliberate. I am not interested in organized religion.
Child
> On Thu, 5 Aug 2004 10:57:15 -0800, "Child" <da...@alaskaSPAMFREE.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Thanks Curtis - you apparently know far more about my religious history
than
> >i do!
>
> Between working at the Washington DC Jewish Community Center and
> sharing the middle space at the Unitarian Universalist Church with the
> mixed-marriage Jews, I sometimes think I'll need to learn to speak
> Yiddish or Hebrew soon. Trying to find out which is easier, just in
> case.
Unitarians are pretty cool. Yiddish is much funner than hebrew.
> OTOH, its great taking ALL the holidays off. With that and four weeks
> vacation, my wife is surprised when I actually go in to work...
LOL, I love non-profits!
Tom Sherman
> ...
> Rasmus Møller
> (yet another dane...
Yikes, they're spreading!
P.S. Ever hear of a Danish Trice Micro owner with an unusual fascination
with rubber bands?
--
Tom Sherman – 50% Danish
Child
>
> > I am certainly minimally eduated, and its not my idea. Evidentally, you
> > need to stop speaking for ALL minimally educated persons, because some
of
> us
> > find you full of shit.
>
> A minimal education is not enough as you prove every time you post to this
> group. It is also necessary to have some culture to go along with the
> education. But certain types of Jews are classically famous for being
vulgar
> and crude. I see that you like to fulfill that stereotype.
Vulgarity is part of the yiddish language.
> > > Actually, I detect that you are writing somewhat better now than
> formerly.
> > > All you need do is mind a few p's and q's and you will almost be up to
> the
> > > mark. You do not ever want to be where slugger is at, do you?
> >
> >
> >
> > I have no idea who or what "slugger" is, so maybe.
>
> That is because you are a women and like all women have only very narrow
> interests. You do not know what is going on on this newsgroup other than
> what strikes your particular fancy of the moment. Do a search under
> "slugger" and check out the way he writes. It will only take you a minute
> to decide whether or not you want to be like him.
I am having trouble finding time to bother with you, let alone slugger.
Tom Sherman
> ...
> OTOH, its great taking ALL the holidays off. With that and four weeks
> vacation...
Vacation? I am not familiar with this concept.
Tom Sherman
> ...OTOH, its great taking ALL the holidays off....
Practice Islam on Friday, Judaism on Saturday and Christianity on Sunday.
Tom Sherman
> "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was
> God."
Edward Dolan thought:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Edward Dolan, and
the Word was Edward Dolan."
Curtis L. Russell
<tshe...@qconline.com> wrote:
>> OTOH, its great taking ALL the holidays off. With that and four weeks
>> vacation...
>
>Vacation? I am not familiar with this concept.
When I was self-employed, neither was I. It was too much like being
unemployed. Back then my wife had been with the same hospital for some
years and was getting four plus weeks a year in vacation.
Now she changed hospitals a bit over a year ago to stay in the same
type oncology position and gets about three weeks, while my days off
really are ridiculous (not to mention, we're chucked out of the Center
at 4:00 pm every Friday). The difference is, my wife felt compelled to
paint different rooms on her weeks off: I've managed to reach a higher
calling and can make a perfect Black and Tan or Beamish and Bass half
and half.
Edward Dolan
> Edward Dolan wrote:
>
> > ...
> > Jesus Christ! A Jew who does not even capitalize Jew!
>
> A rather odd exclamatory phrase in this context, no?
It was intentional. Notice how I did capitalize Jesus Christ. Even though I
am an atheist, I know the Catholic religion and most of Christianity better
than most. On the several occasions when I have been to Europe I spent much
of my time exploring the great Gothic cathedrals. Surely, that has got to
count for something.
Also, I was the perfect little altar boy in my youth. I can still say the
altar boy's responses in the Mass in Latin by heart. The education of a
Catholic in his religion is mostly via catechism lessons. My primer was
something called the Baltimore Catechism. That stuff, once learned, will
stay with you for all eternity.
Edward Dolan
"Child" <da...@alaskaSPAMFREE.com> wrote in message
> > Mark Twain could do this, although I find his style tiring in the
extreme.
> A
> > little bit of it goes a long ways. The rest of us should never attempt
> it.
> > Leave the "yokelisms" to the yokels. Informal styles eventually soon
pale,
> > become boring and finally unreadable.
>
> I like yokelisms. Keeps me awake. Mark Twain is a good "common" writer,
> isn't he?
Try reading Huckleberry Finn again and see if it doesn't drive you to
distraction. There really is no substitute for fine writing. The English do
this much better than we Americans. In fact, the genius of the English is in
their language and their literature. Their theater is also the best the
world has ever seen.
>
> > > I thought you said I didn't know how to write, eddie?
> >
> > If I thought you did not know how to write, I would not bother with you
> the
> > same way I do not bother with slugger. I know that you do know how to
> write
> > but that you refuse to do so for all the wrong reasons.
>
> Funny, because just the other day you wanted me to prove I can write.
Being purposely obtuse will get you nowhere with me.
> > > > > LOL, and what would yours think about you trying to be "boss of
the
> > > > > internet"? Your imaginary standards aren't reality.
> > > >
> > > > I send these messages of mine to my brother and sister for their
> > amusement
> > > > and education. Maybe you should do likewise. You might be shocked at
> > what
> > > > your parents and your brother think of how you are conducting
yourself
> > > here.
> > >
> > > My mother, brother and I converse via email frequently. Its informal,
> > full
> > > of half sentences. No need to type full ones.
> >
> > But your mother does not write like that when it is going to be seen by
> > outsiders (the public). We both know that don't we.
>
> you mean, "We both know that, don't we?"
>
> I think my informal style is rubbing off, or you have been drinking!
I do not polish my writing because, as I have told you before, that would be
overkill for this group. All Irishmen drink for God's sake! The Irish did
not invent whiskey for nothing.
>
> And you aren't "the public" or rather - this isn't "my public" - this is
my
> community of pals!
When you post a message to a Usenet group, you are in public. Anyone in the
world can read what you have written. No one on a newsgroup is your "pal".
Where did you ever get that idea I wonder?
>
> > > You know as much about jews as you do about women, Eddie.
> >
> > You do not know WHO you are or WHERE you came from. A short stay in
Israel
> > would soon enlighten you. I don't know which is worse, a self-hating Jew
> or
> > just an ignorant Jew. You have much to look forward to in life in the
way
> of
> > getting an education.
>
> I have spent many months in Israel. My brother lived there for about 6
> years.
But apparently your stay there was for nothing if you did not learn how
under the gun the Israelis are and by association how all Jews everywhere
are. The Muslims of this world simply hate Jews. Did you know that?
> > Jesus Christ! A Jew who does not even capitalize Jew!
>
>
> Thats deliberate. I am not interested in organized religion.
You ought to be interested in the fact that you are a Jew. That is how the
rest of the world will see you for all eternity. Try to get up to the mark
why don't you, instead of caterwauling about not being religious. Hitler
killed Jews for nothing other than blood lust. Most of Europe still is
quite anti-Semitic.
Edward Dolan
"Child" <da...@alaskaSPAMFREE.com> wrote in message
>
> "Edward Dolan" <edo...@iw.net> wrote in message
> news:EO6dnTvXBp7...@prairiewave.com...
> >
> > > I am certainly minimally eduated, and its not my idea. Evidentally,
you
> > > need to stop speaking for ALL minimally educated persons, because some
> of
> > us
> > > find you full of shit.
> >
> > A minimal education is not enough as you prove every time you post to
this
> > group. It is also necessary to have some culture to go along with the
> > education. But certain types of Jews are classically famous for being
> vulgar
> > and crude. I see that you like to fulfill that stereotype.
>
> Vulgarity is part of the yiddish language.
The Jews of Central Europe were never highly regarded by the high cultures
that surrounded it. Being vulgar and crude was what got the Jews a very bad
reputation in the first place. But you are not writing Yiddish - you are
writing English. So what is your excuse?
> > > > Actually, I detect that you are writing somewhat better now than
> > formerly.
> > > > All you need do is mind a few p's and q's and you will almost be up
to
> > the
> > > > mark. You do not ever want to be where slugger is at, do you?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I have no idea who or what "slugger" is, so maybe.
> >
> > That is because you are a women and like all women have only very narrow
> > interests. You do not know what is going on on this newsgroup other than
> > what strikes your particular fancy of the moment. Do a search under
> > "slugger" and check out the way he writes. It will only take you a
minute
> > to decide whether or not you want to be like him.
>
> I am having trouble finding time to bother with you, let alone slugger.
And Beth thought she could "handle" me. What a laugh! Women are inferior to
men intellectually and most other ways. They do have a better instinctive
sense of being good, but this does not translate to a higher morality. It is
always strictly a personal thing with them.
Edward Dolan
"Child" <da...@alaskaSPAMFREE.com> wrote in message
See how Beth is all simpatico with those she likes and how she is all vulgar
and crude with those she does not like (I am full of shit according to her).
I ask you, would you like to be married to this woman? Would you like to go
for a bicycle ride with her? Make sure she likes you before you answer these
questions.
Beth like all her kind is hot and cold depending on internal factors which
only she knows about. I pity her poor new husband. She will no doubt tire of
him fairly soon and go on to others who will turn out to be even worse than
him. However, maybe if she gets the baby she wants (and I am sure that is
all she wants in this world), it will be enough to make her stick. Then he
is equally stuck - and may they live happily ever after.
Edward Dolan
Islam is not in the same category as the other two religions, being mainly a
primitive Arab atrocity inflicted on the world. However, even Judaism is
basically only a tribal religion. The only true universal religion is
Christianity. All those others are infinitely inferior. Thus spake
Zarathustra.
Child
> Try reading Huckleberry Finn again and see if it doesn't drive you to
> distraction. There really is no substitute for fine writing. The English
do
> this much better than we Americans. In fact, the genius of the English is
in
> their language and their literature. Their theater is also the best the
> world has ever seen.
so why waste time in Minnesota?
> > I think my informal style is rubbing off, or you have been drinking!
>
> I do not polish my writing because, as I have told you before, that would
be
> overkill for this group. All Irishmen drink for God's sake! The Irish did
> not invent whiskey for nothing.
So you are the pot who calls the kettle black.
> >
> > And you aren't "the public" or rather - this isn't "my public" - this is
> my
> > community of pals!
>
> When you post a message to a Usenet group, you are in public. Anyone in
the
> world can read what you have written. No one on a newsgroup is your "pal".
> Where did you ever get that idea I wonder?
Lots of people on this newsgroup are my pals.
> > I have spent many months in Israel. My brother lived there for about 6
> > years.
>
> But apparently your stay there was for nothing if you did not learn how
> under the gun the Israelis are and by association how all Jews everywhere
> are. The Muslims of this world simply hate Jews. Did you know that?
No, I don't know that because its incorrect. I think you might like my
brothers writings though -
http://www.aijac.org.au/
> > Thats deliberate. I am not interested in organized religion.
>
> You ought to be interested in the fact that you are a Jew. That is how the
> rest of the world will see you for all eternity. Try to get up to the mark
> why don't you, instead of caterwauling about not being religious. Hitler
> killed Jews for nothing other than blood lust. Most of Europe still is
> quite anti-Semitic.
And of course I am interested in my heritage, which stems from an organized
religion. But I am not interested in organized religion.
Child
> > Vulgarity is part of the yiddish language.
>
> The Jews of Central Europe were never highly regarded by the high cultures
> that surrounded it. Being vulgar and crude was what got the Jews a very
bad
> reputation in the first place. But you are not writing Yiddish - you are
> writing English. So what is your excuse?
Cursing is part of my heritage that I embrace. I learned it from my family.
We are proud, talented cursers.
> > > > > Actually, I detect that you are writing somewhat better now than
> > > formerly.
> > > > > All you need do is mind a few p's and q's and you will almost be
up
> to
> > > the
> > > > > mark. You do not ever want to be where slugger is at, do you?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I have no idea who or what "slugger" is, so maybe.
> > >
> > > That is because you are a women and like all women have only very
narrow
> > > interests. You do not know what is going on on this newsgroup other
than
> > > what strikes your particular fancy of the moment. Do a search under
> > > "slugger" and check out the way he writes. It will only take you a
> minute
> > > to decide whether or not you want to be like him.
> >
> > I am having trouble finding time to bother with you, let alone slugger.
>
> And Beth thought she could "handle" me. What a laugh! Women are inferior
to
> men intellectually and most other ways. They do have a better instinctive
> sense of being good, but this does not translate to a higher morality. It
is
> always strictly a personal thing with them.
Eddie, you have made an ass out of yourself in this conversation with little
or no help from me. Its entertaining, and worth that little time it took to
make it happen! Thanks so much!
Child
>
> > LOL, I love non-profits!
>
> See how Beth is all simpatico with those she likes and how she is all
vulgar
> and crude with those she does not like (I am full of shit according to
her).
> I ask you, would you like to be married to this woman? Would you like to
go
> for a bicycle ride with her? Make sure she likes you before you answer
these
> questions.
I am crude with everyone, Eddie, but certainly there is no reason to be
polite to someone who harasses, harangues and abuses everyone here.
> Beth like all her kind is hot and cold depending on internal factors which
> only she knows about. I pity her poor new husband. She will no doubt tire
of
> him fairly soon and go on to others who will turn out to be even worse
than
> him. However, maybe if she gets the baby she wants (and I am sure that is
> all she wants in this world), it will be enough to make her stick. Then he
> is equally stuck - and may they live happily ever after.
Oh, Eddie, all you know about women you saw in the movies. Real women are
far more interesting than your make believe ones.
Tom Sherman
> ...
> Cursing is part of my heritage that I embrace. I learned it from my family.
> We are proud, talented cursers....
But anyone who replies to an Usenet post with the response, "No shit"
does not deserve the privilege of posting to Usenet. ;)
Tom Sherman
> "Tom Sherman" <tshe...@qconline.com> wrote in message
> news:2ng42e...@uni-berlin.de...
>
>>Curtis L. Russell wrote:
>>
>>
>>>...OTOH, its great taking ALL the holidays off....
>>
>>Practice Islam on Friday, Judaism on Saturday and Christianity on Sunday.
>>
>>--
>>Tom Sherman ?Quad City Area
>
>
> Islam is not in the same category as the other two religions, being mainly a
> primitive Arab atrocity inflicted on the world. However, even Judaism is
> basically only a tribal religion. The only true universal religion is
> Christianity. All those others are infinitely inferior. Thus spake
> Zarathustra.
Over your head, Mr. Ed! [Zing]
Child
> Child wrote:
>
> > ...
> > Cursing is part of my heritage that I embrace. I learned it from my
family.
> > We are proud, talented cursers....
>
> But anyone who replies to an Usenet post with the response, "No shit"
> does not deserve the privilege of posting to Usenet. ;)
No shit!
Edward Dolan
"Child" <da...@alaskaSPAMFREE.com> wrote in message
[...]
> > > I have spent many months in Israel. My brother lived there for about
6
> > > years.
> >
> > But apparently your stay there was for nothing if you did not learn how
> > under the gun the Israelis are and by association how all Jews
everywhere
> > are. The Muslims of this world simply hate Jews. Did you know that?
>
> No, I don't know that because its incorrect. I think you might like my
> brothers writings though -
> http://www.aijac.org.au/
No thanks! One of you is enough to handle at a time. Any Jew who thinks the
Muslims do not have it in for them is a fool.
>
> > > Thats deliberate. I am not interested in organized religion.
> >
> > You ought to be interested in the fact that you are a Jew. That is how
the
> > rest of the world will see you for all eternity. Try to get up to the
mark
> > why don't you, instead of caterwauling about not being religious. Hitler
> > killed Jews for nothing other than blood lust. Most of Europe still is
> > quite anti-Semitic.
>
>
> And of course I am interested in my heritage, which stems from an
organized
> religion. But I am not interested in organized religion.
A religion that is not organized is no religion at all. Even cults are
highly organized. There would simply be no Jews in this world at all if they
were not into having an "organized religion". You would have gone the way
of the Philistines. You do know who the Philistines were, don't you?
By rejecting your religion you have rejected the essence of your Jewish
heritage. In fact, you are not really a Jew by so doing. Your children, if
you ever have any, will most certainly not be Jews. Too many like you and
that is the end of the Jews in history. Welcome to the gentile world.
Tom Sherman
> No shit!
LOL!
Child
You really need to argue about something you know at little bit about,
because otherwise you end up looking like an ignoramus.
Many of the jews in the world today do not practice any religion, but
instead consider themselves secular jews. Secular jews follow the customs
of judasim, respect the values and celebrate the holidays in a non-religious
way. I even went to secular hebrew school as a kid, where we learned both
yiddish and hebrew, celebrated jewish holidays and learned about the history
of the jewish people.
The Israeli people you speak so highly of are highly non-religious. In
fact, when I went to visit my brother in Israel on kibbutz, they served pork
for breakfast on Yom Kippur. Since the kibbuts normally do not serve any
sort of meat at breakfast, it was an obvious stab at the religious right in
Israel. The population of non-practicing jews in israel is huge.
> By rejecting your religion you have rejected the essence of your Jewish
> heritage. In fact, you are not really a Jew by so doing. Your children, if
> you ever have any, will most certainly not be Jews. Too many like you and
> that is the end of the Jews in history. Welcome to the gentile world.
You really dont' know a damn thing about jews, then do you?
Even the most orthodox jew on earth recognizes me as a jew. They might
think i am a bad jew, but a jew nonetheless. Judaism passes from mother to
child, so all of my children will be jews, even though their father is not
jewish. Perhaps you need to stop thinking about judaism as being equivalent
to catholicism, and you will be capable of understanding the concept.
Edward Dolan
"Child" <da...@alaskaSPAMFREE.com> wrote in message
>
> "Edward Dolan" <edo...@iw.net> wrote in message
> news:K6OdnXs2_84...@prairiewave.com...
> > > Vulgarity is part of the yiddish language.
> >
> > The Jews of Central Europe were never highly regarded by the high
cultures
very
> bad
> > reputation in the first place. But you are not writing Yiddish - you are
> > writing English. So what is your excuse?
>
>
> Cursing is part of my heritage that I embrace. I learned it from my
family.
> We are proud, talented cursers.
Well, me too! My father was the best curser I have ever heard in my life -
bar none. When he God Damned you, the gates of Hell opened. But still, women
should not be cursing. That is for us men to do. Everyone knows that women
are kind, gentle creatures who are possessed of a maternal instinct which is
all sweetness and light. My mother for instance was incapable of uttering a
bad word. Of course, she was a saint and unlike the women of today. May God
rest her soul.
[...]
> > And Beth thought she could "handle" me. What a laugh! Women are inferior
> to
> > men intellectually and most other ways. They do have a better
instinctive
> > sense of being good, but this does not translate to a higher morality.
It
> is
> > always strictly a personal thing with them.
>
>
> Eddie, you have made an ass out of yourself in this conversation with
little
> or no help from me. Its entertaining, and worth that little time it took
to
> make it happen! Thanks so much!
You have absolutely no idea at all what a silly little thing you are. We men
do not really take you seriously at all. You need to relate to your fellow
creatures (other women) and not try to compete in the real world with men.
But you will soon be confined to the nursery and the kitchen where you
belong and all will be right with the world once again. I believe the other
k the Germans talk about has to do with the church, so you should really
think about taking up religion. A women who is an atheist is way over her
head. Again, leave these type of intellectual matters to us men. Big brains
are required the minute you leave the normal path of mankind.
Edward Dolan
"Child" <da...@alaskaSPAMFREE.com> wrote in message
>
> "Edward Dolan" <edo...@iw.net> wrote in message
> news:haydnfPeGfM...@prairiewave.com...
> >
>
> > > LOL, I love non-profits!
> >
> > See how Beth is all simpatico with those she likes and how she is all
> vulgar
> > and crude with those she does not like (I am full of shit according to
> her).
> > I ask you, would you like to be married to this woman? Would you like to
> go
> > for a bicycle ride with her? Make sure she likes you before you answer
> these
> > questions.
>
> I am crude with everyone, Eddie, but certainly there is no reason to be
> polite to someone who harasses, harangues and abuses everyone here.
Who, me? I think she must have me mixed up with someone else. I am the soul
of gentility and politeness - one of the last gentlemen left in this world.
>
> > Beth like all her kind is hot and cold depending on internal factors
which
> > only she knows about. I pity her poor new husband. She will no doubt
tire
> of
> > him fairly soon and go on to others who will turn out to be even worse
> than
> > him. However, maybe if she gets the baby she wants (and I am sure that
is
> > all she wants in this world), it will be enough to make her stick. Then
he
> > is equally stuck - and may they live happily ever after.
>
>
> Oh, Eddie, all you know about women you saw in the movies. Real women are
> far more interesting than your make believe ones.
Jeez! I wish them to live happily ever after and this is what I get for my
good wishes for them. OK then, don't live happily ever after. Have a
perfectly miserable life like everyone else - and welcome to the human race!
Child
> Well, me too! My father was the best curser I have ever heard in my life -
> bar none. When he God Damned you, the gates of Hell opened. But still,
women
> should not be cursing. That is for us men to do. Everyone knows that
women
> are kind, gentle creatures who are possessed of a maternal instinct which
is
> all sweetness and light. My mother for instance was incapable of uttering
a
> bad word. Of course, she was a saint and unlike the women of today. May
God
> rest her soul.
I am willing to concede that your mother was a kind, gentle creature who was
possessed of a maternal instince which is all sweetness and light.
> > Eddie, you have made an ass out of yourself in this conversation with
> little
> > or no help from me. Its entertaining, and worth that little time it
took
> to
> > make it happen! Thanks so much!
>
> You have absolutely no idea at all what a silly little thing you are. We
men
> do not really take you seriously at all. You need to relate to your fellow
> creatures (other women) and not try to compete in the real world with men.
>
> But you will soon be confined to the nursery and the kitchen where you
> belong and all will be right with the world once again. I believe the
other
> k the Germans talk about has to do with the church, so you should really
> think about taking up religion. A women who is an atheist is way over her
> head. Again, leave these type of intellectual matters to us men. Big
brains
> are required the minute you leave the normal path of mankind.
Your attempts to get a rise out of me are amusing, Eddie! I won't be
quitting work or giving up my position as breadwinner in our family any time
soon! Thanks for playing!
Child
> > I am crude with everyone, Eddie, but certainly there is no reason to be
> > polite to someone who harasses, harangues and abuses everyone here.
>
> Who, me? I think she must have me mixed up with someone else. I am the
soul
> of gentility and politeness - one of the last gentlemen left in this
world.
Please cite examples of your polite and chivalrous behavior. I must see
this!
> > Oh, Eddie, all you know about women you saw in the movies. Real women
are
> > far more interesting than your make believe ones.
>
> Jeez! I wish them to live happily ever after and this is what I get for my
> good wishes for them. OK then, don't live happily ever after. Have a
> perfectly miserable life like everyone else - and welcome to the human
race!
I think women are perfectly miserable just like men, and men are perfectly
happy just like women. You can't make generalizations like that about either
gender.
Was Scott here when you got here? Scott was a very fun person to debate
with. He almost convinced me that women's lib has made women's lives worse
by enabling men to leave their families and stick the woman with all the
responsibility. I believe having choices is always better, even if they do
make us unhappy.
Edward Dolan
"Child" <da...@alaskaSPAMFREE.com> wrote in message
[...]
Edward Dolan wrote:
> > A religion that is not organized is no religion at all. Even cults are
> > highly organized. There would simply be no Jews in this world at all if
> they
> > were not into having an "organized religion". You would have gone the
way
> > of the Philistines. You do know who the Philistines were, don't you?
>
> You really need to argue about something you know at little bit about,
> because otherwise you end up looking like an ignoramus.
>
> Many of the jews in the world today do not practice any religion, but
> instead consider themselves secular jews. Secular jews follow the customs
> of judasim, respect the values and celebrate the holidays in a
non-religious
> way. I even went to secular hebrew school as a kid, where we learned both
> yiddish and hebrew, celebrated jewish holidays and learned about the
history
> of the jewish people.
>
> The Israeli people you speak so highly of are highly non-religious. In
> fact, when I went to visit my brother in Israel on kibbutz, they served
pork
> for breakfast on Yom Kippur. Since the kibbuts normally do not serve any
> sort of meat at breakfast, it was an obvious stab at the religious right
in
> Israel. The population of non-practicing jews in israel is huge.
It is the religious Jew that is responsible for there even being any Jews
left in the world today. The so-called secular Jew will be the death of the
Jew in history, at least outside of Israel. Obviously, you do not have any
idea why the Jews still exist in the world today and why the Philistines
don't. A clue for you: it has nothing to do with the Jews being secular.
By the way, it is the emigration to Israel of the oriental and Russian Jews
who have saved Israel from itself. They are highly conservative and they
know what to think of the g.d. Muslims. Without them, Israel would be a
basket case. It is the orthodox Jews and the religious Jews that will save
Israel, not the Westernized secular Jews from Europe and America.
A secular Jew is living off the hundreds of generations of Jews who have
ensured the Jewish survival in the world due to nothing other than their
religion. You are not a self hating Jew, but you are an ignorant Jew. The
result will be the same. You will pass out of history.
>
> > By rejecting your religion you have rejected the essence of your Jewish
> > heritage. In fact, you are not really a Jew by so doing. Your children,
if
> > you ever have any, will most certainly not be Jews. Too many like you
and
> > that is the end of the Jews in history. Welcome to the gentile world.
>
>
> You really dont' know a damn thing about jews, then do you?
>
> Even the most orthodox jew on earth recognizes me as a jew. They might
> think i am a bad jew, but a jew nonetheless. Judaism passes from mother
to
> child, so all of my children will be jews, even though their father is not
> jewish. Perhaps you need to stop thinking about judaism as being
equivalent
> to catholicism, and you will be capable of understanding the concept.
It is because of Jews like you that are marrying non-Jews that the Jews will
eventually disappear from most societies. That mother to child thing is a
slender reed and will not hold up once the religious glue is gone. The only
thing that will save the Jews now is the State of Israel, provided they
maintain that Israel should always be a Jewish state. In other words, they
have to keep the Arabs out or that will be the end of them too.
By the way, I knew very many Jews when I lived in New York, and even the
so-called secular Jews always struck me as being very religious. They mostly
married only other Jews and they did not pretend that religion did not
matter to them. Too many Jews like you and the Jews are history.
Edward Dolan
I do not think "AN Usenet post" can be correct. It does not sound right.
Whereas "A Usenet post" does sound right. Normally "an" before a word that
starts with a vowel is right, but I wonder if there aren't some exceptions
to that rule. What do you think?
Edward Dolan
"Child" <da...@alaskaSPAMFREE.com> wrote in message
> > But you will soon be confined to the nursery and the kitchen where you
> > belong and all will be right with the world once again. I believe the
> other
> > k the Germans talk about has to do with the church, so you should really
> > think about taking up religion. A women who is an atheist is way over
her
> > head. Again, leave these type of intellectual matters to us men. Big
> brains
> > are required the minute you leave the normal path of mankind.
>
>
> Your attempts to get a rise out of me are amusing, Eddie! I won't be
> quitting work or giving up my position as breadwinner in our family any
time
> soon! Thanks for playing!
You may be able to squeak by with just one baby, but any more than that and
you will be at home confined to the nursery, the kitchen and the church (the
three k's so beloved of the Germans) - where you and all women belong. Your
husband, whether he likes it or not, will end up the breadwinner. No more
cycling for you! Instead, you will be pushing a baby carriage down those
mean streets of Anchorage and chattering with all the other moms about your
little bundles of joy. It has been ever thus.
All you ever really had was a prolonged adolescence. Time to grow up now and
be an adult.
Edward Dolan
"Child" <da...@alaskaSPAMFREE.com> wrote in message
>
> "Edward Dolan" <edo...@iw.net> wrote in message
> news:9vWdnfmmupH...@prairiewave.com...
>
> > > I am crude with everyone, Eddie, but certainly there is no reason to
be
> > > polite to someone who harasses, harangues and abuses everyone here.
> >
> > Who, me? I think she must have me mixed up with someone else. I am the
> soul
> > of gentility and politeness - one of the last gentlemen left in this
> world.
>
> Please cite examples of your polite and chivalrous behavior. I must see
> this!
It is enough for me to assert that something is so for it to be so. Facts,
proof, examples - these are for lesser creatures than myself. Did you not
know that I sit at the right hand of the Almighty Himself?
> > > Oh, Eddie, all you know about women you saw in the movies. Real
women
> are
> > > far more interesting than your make believe ones.
> >
> > Jeez! I wish them to live happily ever after and this is what I get for
my
> > good wishes for them. OK then, don't live happily ever after. Have a
> > perfectly miserable life like everyone else - and welcome to the human
> race!
>
>
> I think women are perfectly miserable just like men, and men are perfectly
> happy just like women. You can't make generalizations like that about
either
> gender.
Generalizations are of the essence. If you can't make generalizations, then
you do not know enough.
Actually, both men and women are perfectly miserable 90% of the time. The
other 10% of the time they have the illusion they are partially happy, but
they really aren't. They are just deluded.
> Was Scott here when you got here? Scott was a very fun person to debate
> with. He almost convinced me that women's lib has made women's lives
worse
> by enabling men to leave their families and stick the woman with all the
> responsibility. I believe having choices is always better, even if they
do
> make us unhappy.
I think Scott (of Arizona?) has left this group for greener pastures
elsewhere, mainly because of me I am afraid. We could never see eye to eye
on anything under the sun. He left in disgust because he could not counter
my arguments (but who the hell can). However, if he was not in favor of
women's lib, then I think we would finally have found something we could
agree on.
But I want women to have all the freedom of choice they want and can handle.
But when a woman chooses marriage (and children) then, like the man, there
are things that you have to give up. It is not possible to have all the
freedom that you might desire when you have chosen something which is going
to limit that freedom. Responsibilities that go with choices are of the
essence.
I never married because I never wanted children. This has consequences for
me too. No one can have anything approaching absolute freedom of choice. It
is a chimera.
Regards,
Ed Dolan - Minnesota
PS. I have noted a definite improvement in your writing lately. If you would
now capitalize that which needs to be capitalized, I think you will have
arrived.
Edward Dolan
It was most likely way under my head, Mr. Tom! [Plop]
Child
the same could be said for all christians - religious jews are responsible
for there being any christians in the world today!
> A secular Jew is living off the hundreds of generations of Jews who have
> ensured the Jewish survival in the world due to nothing other than their
> religion. You are not a self hating Jew, but you are an ignorant Jew. The
> result will be the same. You will pass out of history.
Since the holocaust took place the secular movement has become a really
important part of jewish culture. In fact, zionism is almost completely
secular. The simple fact that hitler considered the lapsed jews (i.e.
anyone who had a jewish grandparent) jewish and killed them has given the
secular movement a reason to exist and a strong foundation. I was raised
athiest, but strongly jewish - and reminded constantly that we cannot forget
we are jewish because anti-semites will never forget.
> > You really dont' know a damn thing about jews, then do you?
> >
> > Even the most orthodox jew on earth recognizes me as a jew. They might
> > think i am a bad jew, but a jew nonetheless. Judaism passes from mother
> to
> > child, so all of my children will be jews, even though their father is
not
> > jewish. Perhaps you need to stop thinking about judaism as being
> equivalent
> > to catholicism, and you will be capable of understanding the concept.
>
> It is because of Jews like you that are marrying non-Jews that the Jews
will
> eventually disappear from most societies. That mother to child thing is a
> slender reed and will not hold up once the religious glue is gone. The
only
> thing that will save the Jews now is the State of Israel, provided they
> maintain that Israel should always be a Jewish state. In other words, they
> have to keep the Arabs out or that will be the end of them too.
Religion is not the glue that binds the jews together. Its shared values
and a history of oppression. I have many orthodox friends, and we have much
in common, despite our obvious differences. And they respect me as much as
I respect them.
> By the way, I knew very many Jews when I lived in New York, and even the
> so-called secular Jews always struck me as being very religious. They
mostly
> married only other Jews and they did not pretend that religion did not
> matter to them. Too many Jews like you and the Jews are history.
Secular is by definition not religious and I am probably very similar to the
jews you knew in new york. I might have married a jewish man if there were
more than five of them in anchorage, but as it is, my children will be proud
jews and probably attend hebrew school at the reformed synagogue for their
jewish education (not many choices). I belong to a israeli folk dancing
group that belongs to the synagogue and have considered joining - there are
many secular jews who are members in order to give their families a sense of
jewish community, but i am not yet ready to make that jump.
Child
I don't know if we have time for more than one. I am no spring chicken.
And we can't afford for me to stay home, but we can afford to have mike to
stay home. so that answers that dillemma.
> All you ever really had was a prolonged adolescence. Time to grow up now
and
> be an adult.
I love my prolonged adolescence - i have been very lucky to have such a
great, responsibility free time until now.
Child
> > Please cite examples of your polite and chivalrous behavior. I must see
> > this!
>
> It is enough for me to assert that something is so for it to be so. Facts,
> proof, examples - these are for lesser creatures than myself. Did you not
> know that I sit at the right hand of the Almighty Himself?
No! do you have a photo of that? Or at least a cite? <vbg>
> > > > Oh, Eddie, all you know about women you saw in the movies. Real
> women
> > are
> > > > far more interesting than your make believe ones.
> > >
> > > Jeez! I wish them to live happily ever after and this is what I get
for
> my
> > > good wishes for them. OK then, don't live happily ever after. Have a
> > > perfectly miserable life like everyone else - and welcome to the human
> > race!
> >
> >
> > I think women are perfectly miserable just like men, and men are
perfectly
> > happy just like women. You can't make generalizations like that about
> either
> > gender.
>
> Generalizations are of the essence. If you can't make generalizations,
then
> you do not know enough.
>
> Actually, both men and women are perfectly miserable 90% of the time. The
> other 10% of the time they have the illusion they are partially happy, but
> they really aren't. They are just deluded.
this is probably at least partially accurate, but imagine if you will being
on your bike flying down a hill with the wind in your hair, sun at your
back. If you could do that 10% of the time, you could be happy at least
that much.
> > Was Scott here when you got here? Scott was a very fun person to debate
> > with. He almost convinced me that women's lib has made women's lives
> worse
> > by enabling men to leave their families and stick the woman with all the
> > responsibility. I believe having choices is always better, even if they
> do
> > make us unhappy.
>
> I think Scott (of Arizona?) has left this group for greener pastures
> elsewhere, mainly because of me I am afraid. We could never see eye to eye
> on anything under the sun. He left in disgust because he could not counter
> my arguments (but who the hell can). However, if he was not in favor of
> women's lib, then I think we would finally have found something we could
> agree on.
>
> But I want women to have all the freedom of choice they want and can
handle.
> But when a woman chooses marriage (and children) then, like the man, there
> are things that you have to give up. It is not possible to have all the
> freedom that you might desire when you have chosen something which is
going
> to limit that freedom. Responsibilities that go with choices are of the
> essence.
I considered this before I got married - but realized that i had already
given up those freedoms for the relationship. children will absolutely
affect both of our lives profoundly, and thats a bit scary and disconcerting
for me.
> I never married because I never wanted children. This has consequences for
> me too. No one can have anything approaching absolute freedom of choice.
It
> is a chimera.
Its not too late - lots of widows your age looking for a hermit to cook and
clean for.
> PS. I have noted a definite improvement in your writing lately. If you
would
> now capitalize that which needs to be capitalized, I think you will have
> arrived.
I am too busy to be affected. Too much work and too little time.
Edward Dolan
"Child" <be...@NOT-SO-bad-dawgs-in-ak.com> wrote in message
news:10h8sc4...@corp.supernews.com...
When the French are no longer Christian, there will still be a France and
the French (if they are not overwhelmed by the Muslims). Christianity is not
necessary for the French to survive because they forged a nation long ago.
However, that is not true of the Jew until recently when they forged the
nation of Israel. The Jew has survived down through the ages without a
nation precisely because of their strong religion. Without their very
peculiar religion (monotheism) the Jews would have passed into history long
ago.
The Armenians and the Kurds are other interesting peoples who have survived
without a nation but their continued existence is always in jeopardy because
of it. I do think the Jews may survive now into the future because of the
existence of the State of Israel. It may be that many Jews can now afford
to be secular, but that is not how they survived. I believe that the US will
always be the guarantor of Israel's existence, at least I hope so.
The Jews are the most remarkable people in the history of the world. They
have survived down through the ages when all other ancient peoples have
perished or been absorbed by other peoples and lost to history. And it was
all due to their remarkable religion and to their being the people of the
Book. Without those two vital elements, they would have gone the way of the
ancient Philistines.
> > A secular Jew is living off the hundreds of generations of Jews who have
> > ensured the Jewish survival in the world due to nothing other than their
> > religion. You are not a self hating Jew, but you are an ignorant Jew.
The
> > result will be the same. You will pass out of history.
>
> Since the holocaust took place the secular movement has become a really
> important part of jewish culture. In fact, zionism is almost completely
> secular. The simple fact that hitler considered the lapsed jews (i.e.
> anyone who had a jewish grandparent) jewish and killed them has given the
> secular movement a reason to exist and a strong foundation. I was raised
> athiest, but strongly jewish - and reminded constantly that we cannot
forget
> we are jewish because anti-semites will never forget.
All well and good. But you will never be able to abandon your religion. It
would be suicidal to do so. There is a strong tribal element to being a Jew,
but the religion is the key to it all.
Those shared values and the history of oppression will fade - as they
already have for most American Jews. Abandon your religion at your peril.
The orthodox Jew will save Judaism.
>
> > By the way, I knew very many Jews when I lived in New York, and even the
> > so-called secular Jews always struck me as being very religious. They
> mostly
> > married only other Jews and they did not pretend that religion did not
> > matter to them. Too many Jews like you and the Jews are history.
>
> Secular is by definition not religious and I am probably very similar to
the
> jews you knew in new york. I might have married a jewish man if there
were
> more than five of them in anchorage, but as it is, my children will be
proud
> jews and probably attend hebrew school at the reformed synagogue for their
> jewish education (not many choices). I belong to a israeli folk dancing
> group that belongs to the synagogue and have considered joining - there
are
> many secular jews who are members in order to give their families a sense
of
> jewish community, but i am not yet ready to make that jump.
Intermarriage is the beginning of the end for the Jew as it is for the
Catholic. The religion will eventually be lost and so will the
identification of being Jewish as intermarriage continues generation after
generation. It will be an uphill struggle to maintain your identification as
a Jew. Eventually, you or your children will be absorbed into the gentile
world. It was ever thus.
Edward Dolan
"Child" <be...@NOT-SO-bad-dawgs-in-ak.com> wrote in message
> And we can't afford for me to stay home, but we can afford to have mike to
> stay home. so that answers that dillemma.
My parents did not get married until your age (36) because the Great
Depression prevented it (nobody had any money). My mother had three children
and so can you if that is what you want. You have lots of time and you will
be a good parent because you have acquired maturity as had my mother. That
makes all the difference. Your children will be lucky to have mature
parents.
>
> > All you ever really had was a prolonged adolescence. Time to grow up now
> and
> > be an adult.
>
>
> I love my prolonged adolescence - i have been very lucky to have such a
> great, responsibility free time until now.
Think of it as a separate life. Now you are entering another 2nd life, and
if you are lucky and live a long time you will eventually enter a 3rd life.
You would not want to continue any longer with your carefree life. Having
cares will connect you with all of humanity.
--
Best Regards,
Ed Dolan - Minnesota
Edward Dolan
"Child" <be...@NOT-SO-bad-dawgs-in-ak.com> wrote in message
> > Actually, both men and women are perfectly miserable 90% of the time.
The
> > other 10% of the time they have the illusion they are partially happy,
but
> > they really aren't. They are just deluded.
>
> this is probably at least partially accurate, but imagine if you will
being
> on your bike flying down a hill with the wind in your hair, sun at your
> back. If you could do that 10% of the time, you could be happy at least
> that much.
Agreed!
[...]
> > But I want women to have all the freedom of choice they want and can
> handle.
> > But when a woman chooses marriage (and children) then, like the man,
there
> > are things that you have to give up. It is not possible to have all the
> > freedom that you might desire when you have chosen something which is
> going
> > to limit that freedom. Responsibilities that go with choices are of the
> > essence.
>
> I considered this before I got married - but realized that i had already
> given up those freedoms for the relationship. children will absolutely
> affect both of our lives profoundly, and thats a bit scary and
disconcerting
> for me.
Full steam ahead - and don't look back!
>
> > I never married because I never wanted children. This has consequences
for
> > me too. No one can have anything approaching absolute freedom of choice.
> It
> > is a chimera.
>
> Its not too late - lots of widows your age looking for a hermit to cook
and
> clean for.
No, I am a true hermit. I will look upon the fair sex from afar and dream my
dreams.
--
Best Regards,
Ed Dolan - Minnesota
Tom Sherman
> ...I believe that the US will
> always be the guarantor of Israel's existence, at least I hope so....
That is very unlikely, for the US will likely not be in is current
position in the world political order for much longer (in historical
terms), nor will the world's political and social order remain the same.
Based on recent evidence, 2004 will be recalled as the first year that
petroleum production could not be increased enough to hold prices down.
Real shortages are not far away, probably within Mr. Dolan's lifetime.
The new world leaders will be those countries that adapt rapidly to
renewable energy sources, not those that spend their current resources
fighting over the dwindling extractable oil reserves.
Tom Sherman
> "Child" <da...@alaskaSPAMFREE.com> wrote in message
> news:10h8aeo...@corp.supernews.com...
> ...
>>Was Scott here when you got here? Scott was a very fun person to debate
>>with. He almost convinced me that women's lib has made women's lives
>>worse...
>
> I think Scott (of Arizona?) has left this group for greener pastures
> elsewhere, mainly because of me I am afraid. We could never see eye to eye
> on anything under the sun. He left in disgust because he could not counter
> my arguments (but who the hell can). However, if he was not in favor of
> women's lib, then I think we would finally have found something we could
> agree on....
Yet again, Mr. Ed can not keep alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent participants
straight. Beth is referring to Scott “Freewheeling” [1] who has a V-Rex
with a Rohloff hub, while Mr. Ed is thinking of "Roknutz" Scott who
lives in the Sierra Nevada mountains in southern California and has a
Tour Easy and a GTT that he rides with his wife Jodi.
[1] <http://demosophia.typepad.com/about.html>.
Tom Sherman
> "Tom Sherman" <tshe...@qconline.com> wrote in message
> news:2nij5lF...@uni-berlin.de...
>>Over your head, Mr. Ed! [Zing]
>
> It was most likely way under my head, Mr. Tom! [Plop]
Plop like this [1], Mr. Ed?
[1] <http://www.wrightguide.com/media/IM000942.JPG>.
Joe Keenan
look upon the fair sex from afar and dream my dreams." << Major
snippage >>
Yo Ed,
Before you get on your high horse (bad pun for Mr. Ed) about snippage,
don't even begin to lecture me about usenettiquette with what you've
done to these threads.
Because you're one for exactitude, refer to yourself as you truly are
on this forum: A misfit. You're not a hermit. A hermit withdraws
from society and lives in seclusion whereas a misfit is one who is
unable to adjust to one's environment or circumstances or is
considered to be disturbingly different from others. If you were a
hermit, you wouldn't be here. However, as a misfit you're doing an
outstanding job.
Slow Joe Recumbo