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Was there really such a thing as "Philosophical Daoism?" Were Laozi and Zhuangzi Daoists?
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Bao Pu
Oct 16, 2011, 7:01:10 PM10/16/11
to
Hi all,
I just posted the first of several pieces on the nature of early
Daoism on my blog. In particular, I explore whether there ever was
such a thing as "classical Daoism" or "philosophical Daoism." Here's
the link, if you're interested:
http://baopu81.wordpress.com/2011/10/16/classical-daoism-is-there-really-such-a-thing-part-1/
I just posted the first of several pieces on the nature of early
Daoism on my blog. In particular, I explore whether there ever was
such a thing as "classical Daoism" or "philosophical Daoism." Here's
the link, if you're interested:
http://baopu81.wordpress.com/2011/10/16/classical-daoism-is-there-really-such-a-thing-part-1/
![{:-])))'s profile photo](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a/default-user=s40-c)
{:-])))
Oct 17, 2011, 6:37:50 AM10/17/11
to
Bao Pu wrote:
>Hi all,
Hi there!
I read it through once.
Looks like a great project.
In footnote 20, on the second line
at the end, there's a than. That might
maybe be supposed to be a that.
The question of whether there was
sub-cultures, streams and themes.
For me, with me, around me,
growing up, in the States, there was
what was referred to as hippy culture.
Generations later, it might be surmised
that there was a hippy philosophy.
Whatever that philosophy was, if it was,
it might be said of people now, or then,
that they are\were classic hippies or, perhaps,
philosophical hippies.
If hippy-thought were to be seen as a form
of government or political science, that might
be an interesting lens through which to view it,
assuming there was such a thing as hippy thought.
As a way of life,
peace and love transcends government.
It goes beyond politics.
Classical music also comes to my mind.
Historians of music, in an effort to categorize,
alphabetize, and otherwise put things in order,
might lump a batch of composers together.
Now-a-daze there is classic rock.
Whether to include or exclude metal
from heavy metal from classic rock might
be subject to some discussion.
Now it could be said, clearly, Jimi Hendrix
was a hippy. Or was he? Was Joni Mitchell?
Bob Dylan? Were The Beatles?
Water might be muddy or clear.
I think what Zz had to say about words
could be an essential ingredient. The idea
is to get some point across. Once the words
have done that, they're done.
If I say I'm a philosophical hippy,
but not a real hippy, that might mean something.
There used to be weekend hippies.
A Real Daoist might be more than philosophical
while having at the same time some love of wisdom
found in any of many texts known as Daoist.
Fitting a stereotype may lead to surround sound.
Having only a mono player might be limited.
For me, were I to use the term, classical Daoism
or philosophical Daoism, or Daojia, it would
probably refer to a flavour.
There is something there,
difficult to describe. And yet, perhaps
there is a taste or a sound to it. It smells
or feels a certain way. It rings a bell.
Some may know what I mean.
Others, maybe not a clue.
Thanks for the reflections!
>Hi all,
Hi there!
Looks like a great project.
In footnote 20, on the second line
at the end, there's a than. That might
maybe be supposed to be a that.
The question of whether there was
such a thing as "classical Daoism"
brought to my mind ideas of culture,
sub-cultures, streams and themes.
For me, with me, around me,
growing up, in the States, there was
what was referred to as hippy culture.
Generations later, it might be surmised
that there was a hippy philosophy.
Whatever that philosophy was, if it was,
it might be said of people now, or then,
that they are\were classic hippies or, perhaps,
philosophical hippies.
If hippy-thought were to be seen as a form
of government or political science, that might
be an interesting lens through which to view it,
assuming there was such a thing as hippy thought.
As a way of life,
peace and love transcends government.
It goes beyond politics.
Classical music also comes to my mind.
Historians of music, in an effort to categorize,
alphabetize, and otherwise put things in order,
might lump a batch of composers together.
Now-a-daze there is classic rock.
Whether to include or exclude metal
from heavy metal from classic rock might
be subject to some discussion.
Now it could be said, clearly, Jimi Hendrix
was a hippy. Or was he? Was Joni Mitchell?
Bob Dylan? Were The Beatles?
Water might be muddy or clear.
I think what Zz had to say about words
could be an essential ingredient. The idea
is to get some point across. Once the words
have done that, they're done.
If I say I'm a philosophical hippy,
but not a real hippy, that might mean something.
There used to be weekend hippies.
A Real Daoist might be more than philosophical
while having at the same time some love of wisdom
found in any of many texts known as Daoist.
Fitting a stereotype may lead to surround sound.
Having only a mono player might be limited.
For me, were I to use the term, classical Daoism
or philosophical Daoism, or Daojia, it would
probably refer to a flavour.
There is something there,
difficult to describe. And yet, perhaps
there is a taste or a sound to it. It smells
or feels a certain way. It rings a bell.
Some may know what I mean.
Others, maybe not a clue.
Thanks for the reflections!
shazi
Oct 17, 2011, 7:12:48 AM10/17/11
to
baopu wrote:
>Hi all,
hey bp.
a lot of good material
thanks for that
i was looking for your thesis
as to what position you're taking
on this at this point.
I think it critical that you laid out
the influence of Empress Dou
but i didn't see a mention of the
era of wen and jing which resulted
it says something about the effect
of huanglao -- at this point, huanglao
is meant to be 'political daoism',
and the texts, including the laozi,
are interpreted as guides for ruling.
the recent translation of huainanzi
and the discovery of the huanglao docs
as a part of mawangdui
lead to some interesting conclusions
about the huanglao period.
as well, the wenzi, at least in part
lends credibility to what emerged
as the formative period of huanglao
As you move to your chapter on laozi,
i wonder if you'll explore the idea that
the laozi indeed achieved final form
at this point during the huanglao,
at least so it would seem, when one
compares the bamboo strip laozi
with the mawangdui text buried in 168bce.
anyway -- best wishes -- great stuff.
-shazi
>Hi all,
hey bp.
thanks for that
i was looking for your thesis
as to what position you're taking
on this at this point.
I think it critical that you laid out
the influence of Empress Dou
but i didn't see a mention of the
era of wen and jing which resulted
it says something about the effect
of huanglao -- at this point, huanglao
is meant to be 'political daoism',
and the texts, including the laozi,
are interpreted as guides for ruling.
the recent translation of huainanzi
and the discovery of the huanglao docs
as a part of mawangdui
lead to some interesting conclusions
about the huanglao period.
as well, the wenzi, at least in part
lends credibility to what emerged
as the formative period of huanglao
As you move to your chapter on laozi,
i wonder if you'll explore the idea that
the laozi indeed achieved final form
at this point during the huanglao,
at least so it would seem, when one
compares the bamboo strip laozi
with the mawangdui text buried in 168bce.
anyway -- best wishes -- great stuff.
-shazi
Bao Pu
Oct 17, 2011, 8:30:43 AM10/17/11
to
Thanks for taking the time to read it Jay. I understand what you are
saying with your analogies to the hippy movement, classical music,
etc. This is the sort of thing I'm going to be exploring further, so I
appreciate your thoughts. I do have to work with the facts, or start
from them, so if my piece of writing seems overly concerned with these
facts, bare this in mind.
In the past few years I've been moving away lumping people into
reified groups. Expressions such as "Americans are all ..." or
"Chinese people are ..." and more to the point, "Daoists believe ..."
Clearly, the authors of the Laozi and the authors of the Zhuangzi did
not agree on everything. It seems to me that the authors of the Laozi
did not agree on everything. Still, complete agreement isn't necessary
to belong to some sort of group, or at least it shouldn't. I plan to
look at the reasons we lump Laozi and Zhuangzi together, and I hope to
get some feedback from you, Shazi and any others who care to speak up.
On that subject, I would appreciate it if you could paste your entire
reply on my blog as well. (Shazi as well). Its up to you of course. I
will still reply here as well.
You write: "For me, were I to use the term, classical Daoism or
give it a try. I am not sure how it will end. Which is probably a good
thing!
Good health to ya!
Scott
saying with your analogies to the hippy movement, classical music,
etc. This is the sort of thing I'm going to be exploring further, so I
appreciate your thoughts. I do have to work with the facts, or start
from them, so if my piece of writing seems overly concerned with these
facts, bare this in mind.
In the past few years I've been moving away lumping people into
reified groups. Expressions such as "Americans are all ..." or
"Chinese people are ..." and more to the point, "Daoists believe ..."
Clearly, the authors of the Laozi and the authors of the Zhuangzi did
not agree on everything. It seems to me that the authors of the Laozi
did not agree on everything. Still, complete agreement isn't necessary
to belong to some sort of group, or at least it shouldn't. I plan to
look at the reasons we lump Laozi and Zhuangzi together, and I hope to
get some feedback from you, Shazi and any others who care to speak up.
On that subject, I would appreciate it if you could paste your entire
reply on my blog as well. (Shazi as well). Its up to you of course. I
will still reply here as well.
You write: "For me, were I to use the term, classical Daoism or
philosophical Daoism, or Daojia, it would probably refer to a flavour.
There is something there, difficult to describe. And yet, perhaps
there is a taste or a sound to it. It smells or feels a certain way.
It rings a bell."
I share your feelings Jay. Though difficult to describe, I am going to
There is something there, difficult to describe. And yet, perhaps
there is a taste or a sound to it. It smells or feels a certain way.
It rings a bell."
give it a try. I am not sure how it will end. Which is probably a good
thing!
Good health to ya!
Scott
Bao Pu
Oct 17, 2011, 8:55:37 AM10/17/11
to
On Oct 17, 7:12 am, shazi <shazi.dao...@gmail.com> wrote:
> baopu wrote:
> >Hi all,
>
> hey bp.
>
> >I just posted the first of several pieces on the nature of early
> >Daoism on my blog. In particular, I explore whether there ever was
> >such a thing as "classical Daoism" or "philosophical Daoism." Here's
> >the link, if you're interested:
> >http://baopu81.wordpress.com/2011/10/16/classical-daoism-is-there-rea...
> baopu wrote:
> >Hi all,
>
> hey bp.
>
> >I just posted the first of several pieces on the nature of early
> >Daoism on my blog. In particular, I explore whether there ever was
> >such a thing as "classical Daoism" or "philosophical Daoism." Here's
> >the link, if you're interested:
>
> a lot of good material
> thanks for that
> i was looking for your thesis
> as to what position you're taking
> on this at this point.
At this point in time I have an open mind. Questioning some long-held
> a lot of good material
> thanks for that
> i was looking for your thesis
> as to what position you're taking
> on this at this point.
beliefs in a Zhuangzian manner.
> I think it critical that you laid out
> the influence of Empress Dou
> but i didn't see a mention of the
> era of wen and jing which resulted
> it says something about the effect
> of huanglao -- at this point, huanglao
> is meant to be 'political daoism',
> and the texts, including the laozi,
> are interpreted as guides for ruling.
ruling by Huang-Lao doctrines. Suggestions welcome! On another forum
years ago I asked about emperor Wen's supposed Daoist-ness but got
little in the way of facts. He seems to me to have been the perfect
Confucian gentleman. I agree that Huang-Lao is political, but do not
want to call it "political Daoism," as I have not exactly determined
what Daoism is. Sima Tan's Daojia is so syncretic as it is difficult
to exclude much. Does Daojia = Huang-Lao? As I will write about a
little later, the general consensus is that the <i>Laozi</i> was
always primarily a guide for ruling, written (actually "compiled" is
better) for either rulers or aspiring advisors. But you may have a
different opinion. I'm all ears (though not so much as "Old Long-
ears" !)
> the recent translation of huainanzi
> and the discovery of the huanglao docs
> as a part of mawangdui
> lead to some interesting conclusions
> about the huanglao period.
everyone seems to assume the Mawangdui Four Texts are Huang-Lao. They
don't identify themselves as Huang-Lao and Huang Di, the Yellow
Emperor, isn't mentioned in most of it. Of course, as I wrote, the
Huang of Huang-Lao might simply signify statecraft or the art of
governing. But that is just a guess.
> as well, the wenzi, at least in part
> lends credibility to what emerged
> as the formative period of huanglao
> As you move to your chapter on laozi,
> i wonder if you'll explore the idea that
> the laozi indeed achieved final form
> at this point during the huanglao,
> at least so it would seem, when one
> compares the bamboo strip laozi
> with the mawangdui text buried in 168bce.
"final" form. The Mawangdui manuscript A, for example has only been
dated to before the first Han Emperor, Gaozu. That could mean 206
B.C.E., 225 B.C.E., 275 B.C.E., etc. The Guodian material is
suggestive, but inconclusive.
> anyway -- best wishes -- great stuff.
>
> -shazi
kamerm
Oct 17, 2011, 9:36:45 AM10/17/11
to
a good start :-)
for me, classical dao-ism guides primarily in the areas discussed in
Lz-8
"In choosing your home look to the land.
In preparing your heart go deep.
In associating with others value gentleness.
In speaking exhibit good faith.
In governing provide good order.
In the conduct of business be competent.
In action be timely."
cf. http://www.thebigview.com/tao-te-ching/chapter08.html
Lz-10
"While carrying your active life on your head
can you embrace the quiet spirit in your arms, and not let go?
While being fully focused on your vital breath
can you make it soft like that of a newborn babe?
While cleaning your inner mirror
can you leave it without blemish?
While loving the people and ruling the country
can you dispense with cleverness?
While opening and closing the gates of heaven
can you be like a mother bird?
While penetrating the four quarters with your insight
can you remain simple?"
cf. http://www.thebigview.com/tao-te-ching/chapter10.html
Lz-54
"When cultivated in your person, Virtue will be real.
When cultivated in your household, Virtue will be plentiful.
When cultivated in your village, Virtue will endure.
When cultivated in your country, Virtue will abound.
When cultivated in your world, Virtue will be universal.
Hence, through yourself look at Self.
Through your household look at Household.
Through your community look at Community.
Through your country look at Country.
Through your world look at World."
cf: http://www.thebigview.com/tao-te-ching/chapter54.html
and then by extension to all other areas of human endeavor, not necessarily
by the topics of these areas having significant commonality, but by the
common humanity of the practitioners no matter what they practice.
add in TCM, yin-yang and 5-elements based science, personal alchemy (rooted
in the preceeding), and the politics of the (their respective) times and you
have much of the formal underpinnings of the once learned, then
beyond-learning sages who penned the great dao-ist tracts.
all "classical dao-ist" writings have in common the feel of Zz' effortlessly
pivoting gate (cf. Sz' military strategy as dance - fading the opponent's
strength, entering the opponent's absence, ideally ultimately harmonizing
the opponent to where conflict disappears (what China's done with US) ;-)
whether common roots and strategy are enough to justify calling something a
formal school, look forward to learning from you :-) at the least, the
"commonly accepted as classical dao-ist writings" "hold fast to this ancient
Tao" (Lz 14)
and, you've described without characterizing (per Zz) a propitious start :-)
Thanks again,
-k
Bao Pu
Oct 17, 2011, 10:10:56 AM10/17/11
to
Hi Kamerm,
It would seem to me that "classical Daoism" for you guides primarily
through self-cultivation, and from there to all human endeavours. I
think that makes some sense. I wonder if you have any ideas on who the
intended reader of the Laozi was. Do you think it was disciples in
some sort of lineage(s)? Political advisors or rulers? Someone else?
What about the Zhuangzi?
Thanks for the kind words.
Good health,
Bao Pu
It would seem to me that "classical Daoism" for you guides primarily
through self-cultivation, and from there to all human endeavours. I
think that makes some sense. I wonder if you have any ideas on who the
intended reader of the Laozi was. Do you think it was disciples in
some sort of lineage(s)? Political advisors or rulers? Someone else?
What about the Zhuangzi?
Thanks for the kind words.
Good health,
Bao Pu
Tang Huyen
Oct 17, 2011, 12:19:58 PM10/17/11
to
just as a suggestion, the early Daoism of
LZ and ZZ (I know, there can be many
people in there) is tightly knit from a
viewpoint of pure reason, so that the
issue of how many people there were and
who they were is essentially irrelevant.
You can say that I talk nonsense, and I
shall not be offended, and if you ask for
details, I shall not give any for now,
but for another suggestion, the French
scholars of the early part of last
century, before WW II, made lovely
translations of it and, though they did
not explicitly talk of the rational
structure of it (nobody does), they still
let the rational structure of it shine
through intact, in a way that has since
been lost, even by Chinese scholars.
Again, the early Daoism of LZ and ZZ is
structurally coherent and consistent, if
you know how to detect it (present-day
scholarship does not), and there is such
a thing as a well-packaged early Daoism
of LZ and ZZ, philosophically speaking,
in disregard for how many people there
were and who they were. They thought
with one mind, which was essential, and
it was distinct and particular, though
in all probability they were
geographically and temporally spread out
(they might speak with different Chinese
dialects, and might never meet face to
face). If somebody was to charge in to
mimick them without "getting" that
shared spirit, the result would be quite
messed up and not homogeneous with the
early Daoism of LZ and ZZ. There *is* a
taste to it.
Tang Huyen
Bao Pu
Oct 17, 2011, 12:46:23 PM10/17/11
to
On Oct 17, 12:19 pm, Tang Huyen <tanghuyen{dele...@gmail.com[remove]>
wrote:
Hi Huyen,
No, I will not accuse you of talking nonsense because clearly what you
say is possible. It is too bad you have not the time or interest in
giving details, because that is what I'm interested in. I personally
don't think ANY group thinks "with one mind," not Christians,
Vietnamese, moralists, Communists or Daoists. I have more faith in a
scientific approach - examining evidence - than people's feelings.
However, intuition is an amazing thing, so I do not exclude people's
intuition about these things. But without some explanation or pointers
(sorry, I can't read French, and much of early 20th century opinions
have been overturned), you give me nothing to work with.
Good health,
Bao Pu
wrote:
No, I will not accuse you of talking nonsense because clearly what you
say is possible. It is too bad you have not the time or interest in
giving details, because that is what I'm interested in. I personally
don't think ANY group thinks "with one mind," not Christians,
Vietnamese, moralists, Communists or Daoists. I have more faith in a
scientific approach - examining evidence - than people's feelings.
However, intuition is an amazing thing, so I do not exclude people's
intuition about these things. But without some explanation or pointers
(sorry, I can't read French, and much of early 20th century opinions
have been overturned), you give me nothing to work with.
Good health,
Bao Pu
Tang Huyen
Oct 17, 2011, 1:27:05 PM10/17/11
to
Bao Pu wrote:
> Hi Huyen,
>
> No, I will not accuse you of talking nonsense
> because clearly what you say is possible. It
> is too bad you have not the time or interest
> in giving details, because that is what I'm
> interested in. I personally don't think ANY
> group thinks "with one mind," not Christians,
> Vietnamese, moralists, Communists or Daoists.
> I have more faith in a scientific approach -
> examining evidence - than people's feelings.
> However, intuition is an amazing thing, so I
> do not exclude people's intuition about these
> things. But without some explanation or
> pointers (sorry, I can't read French, and
> much of early 20th century opinions have been
> overturned), you give me nothing to work with.
>
> Good health,
> Bao Pu
It requires mutual understanding (zhi-yin 知音),
> Hi Huyen,
>
> No, I will not accuse you of talking nonsense
> because clearly what you say is possible. It
> is too bad you have not the time or interest
> in giving details, because that is what I'm
> interested in. I personally don't think ANY
> group thinks "with one mind," not Christians,
> Vietnamese, moralists, Communists or Daoists.
> I have more faith in a scientific approach -
> examining evidence - than people's feelings.
> However, intuition is an amazing thing, so I
> do not exclude people's intuition about these
> things. But without some explanation or
> pointers (sorry, I can't read French, and
> much of early 20th century opinions have been
> overturned), you give me nothing to work with.
>
> Good health,
> Bao Pu
which is not easy to come by. This is the
overarching vision, but it seems that you go
for details, so it (no offence meant) probably
will slip you by.
In Vietnam, Confucianism is said to be "world
entering" (ru-shi 入世) whereas Daoims is said
to be "world exiting (chu-shi 出世), but Daoism
is characterised by some very particular
vision and not just by this crude opposition.
It is this vision that the French scholars of
the last century before WW II "got", and that
has since been lost, even to Chinese scholars.
Without it, Daoism seems like pointillist
chaos. This is in disregard to external facts,
and concerns only the inner spirit. In this
inner spirit, the accord of early Daoism is
tight, and makes the issue of external facts
quite irrelevant.
As I said, this spirit is not just some
vapoury "mixed soup", but is very clear and
very tight rational structure, though modern
scholarship scarcely knows what rational
structure is, and I am talking of European
philosophy, theology and mysticism, not just
of some alien, exotic fluff like Chinese
philosophy. (Remember, Hegel, Frege and
Heidegger take philosophy to be a European
invention that does not exist elsewhere).
But once you "get" this rational structure,
early Daoism snaps into focus, and once that
happens, the issue of how many people there
were and who they were is essentially
irrelevant. They thought with one mind.
You ask about "Philosophical Daoism", so that
is what I have to say, for now. It *is*
philosophy (pace Hegel, Frege and Heidegger),
and highly structured philosophy, with its
own very peculiar construction, and not any
kind of "mixed soup". There is no way to mix
it up with, say, Confucianism of any stripe.
Tang Huyen
{:-])))
Oct 17, 2011, 4:19:36 PM10/17/11
to
Tang Huyen wrote:
>Bao Pu wrote:
>
>> No, I will not accuse you of talking nonsense ...
>
>It requires mutual understanding ...
There is an essence,
a distillate of sum sorting,
or, rather, perhaps, much subtractingling,
found by many, ore, One, in the DDJ and Zz.
Latching onto what it is
might be akin to flipping a switch
or riding a bike, swimming, etc..
It may entail an experience.
Milage varies.
- making senses
out of non-senses -
>Bao Pu wrote:
>
>> No, I will not accuse you of talking nonsense ...
>
>It requires mutual understanding ...
There is an essence,
a distillate of sum sorting,
or, rather, perhaps, much subtractingling,
found by many, ore, One, in the DDJ and Zz.
Latching onto what it is
might be akin to flipping a switch
or riding a bike, swimming, etc..
It may entail an experience.
Milage varies.
- making senses
out of non-senses -
Tang Huyen
Oct 17, 2011, 7:02:27 PM10/17/11
to
{:-]))) wrote:
> Tang Huyen:
>> It requires mutual understanding ...
> There is an essence,
> a distillate of sum sorting,
> or, rather, perhaps, much subtractingling,
> found by many, ore, One, in the DDJ and Zz.
>
> Latching onto what it is
> might be akin to flipping a switch
> or riding a bike, swimming, etc..
>
> It may entail an experience.
> Milage varies.
>
> - making senses
> out of non-senses -
One would assume that in mystical vision or
intuition or experience or whatever, people
who share it would ... share it, namely a
mystical vision or intuition or experience
or whatever.
That part is expectable.
But after sharing such a mystical vision or
intuition or experience or whatever, they
then come out of it and express it, and the
weird thing is that they express it using a
rigourous logic, which is also a structure
of pure reason. A mystical vision or
intuition or experience or whatever, which
is supposed to be ineffable or to escape
language and thought, is (not flung about
haphazardly, in whichever way, like
spaghetti or "mixed soup", but) strictly
reduced to a rational structure of the most
rigourous kind.
That part is not expectable.
If others charge in to study the expression
of it (like the texts or scriptures that
such expression leaves behind, perhaps
thousands of years later and on the other
end of the world), but fail to synch in
with the attendant logic (aka the rational
structure), they are quite likely to
misunderstand the mystical vision or
intuition or experience or whatever. This,
even if the people who study it use the
same (or almost the same) language, like
Chinese, modern as contrasted with ancient.
As I said, the last people who understood
the vision of early Daoism were French
scholars in the early part of last century,
just before WW II. They did not talk
explicitly of such rational structure, but
let it through intact. Afterward, it got
lost, and even Chinese scholars of the
present have no inkling of it.
Basically, present-day Chinese scholars
have lost touch with traditional modes of
thought. They are utter aliens to
traditional modes of thought.
Mystery of mystery!
Tang Huyen
> Tang Huyen:
>> It requires mutual understanding ...
> There is an essence,
> a distillate of sum sorting,
> or, rather, perhaps, much subtractingling,
> found by many, ore, One, in the DDJ and Zz.
>
> Latching onto what it is
> might be akin to flipping a switch
> or riding a bike, swimming, etc..
>
> It may entail an experience.
> Milage varies.
>
> - making senses
> out of non-senses -
intuition or experience or whatever, people
who share it would ... share it, namely a
mystical vision or intuition or experience
or whatever.
That part is expectable.
But after sharing such a mystical vision or
intuition or experience or whatever, they
then come out of it and express it, and the
weird thing is that they express it using a
rigourous logic, which is also a structure
of pure reason. A mystical vision or
intuition or experience or whatever, which
is supposed to be ineffable or to escape
language and thought, is (not flung about
haphazardly, in whichever way, like
spaghetti or "mixed soup", but) strictly
reduced to a rational structure of the most
rigourous kind.
That part is not expectable.
If others charge in to study the expression
of it (like the texts or scriptures that
such expression leaves behind, perhaps
thousands of years later and on the other
end of the world), but fail to synch in
with the attendant logic (aka the rational
structure), they are quite likely to
misunderstand the mystical vision or
intuition or experience or whatever. This,
even if the people who study it use the
same (or almost the same) language, like
Chinese, modern as contrasted with ancient.
As I said, the last people who understood
the vision of early Daoism were French
scholars in the early part of last century,
just before WW II. They did not talk
explicitly of such rational structure, but
let it through intact. Afterward, it got
lost, and even Chinese scholars of the
present have no inkling of it.
Basically, present-day Chinese scholars
have lost touch with traditional modes of
thought. They are utter aliens to
traditional modes of thought.
Mystery of mystery!
Tang Huyen
Craig
Oct 17, 2011, 9:11:26 PM10/17/11
to
thing is.
Or would that be notions of what a thing might have been?
What was Tao before Taoism?
Was Jesus a Christian?
Did Plato tell us about a real Socrates or an ideal?
Is myself a thing of the moment or total of all that I was, I am and I
will be? Amy I less me for what I don't remember or don't know yet?
Oh well, history is interesting and I'll try to give your site a read.
- I seem to be plagued with a nagging impatience or short attention span
or sumthin' anymore.
kamerm
Oct 17, 2011, 9:19:39 PM10/17/11
to
of the 3-LZ passages cited, only a minority of the lines refer to
cultivating the inner person. Certainly Lz-54 begins with self-cultivation,
but i've seen nothing in Lz or Zz that requires interpreting Lz-54 as a
strictly lineal set of "gates".
Since the ruler(s) were "paying for the party", the primary overt sentiments
of classical dao-ism were around external governing.
Part of the enduring genius of "classical daoism" is how it links all realms
of human endeavor (esp. Zz). Since the only thing linking all realms of
human endeavor is the humans doing the endeavoring, the fundamental insights
are implicitly self-cultivation, but for the most part with an external
focus (as in learning to still breath and heart at the moment of an arrow's
release - an ancient discipline now taught to Western competitive archers
using bio-feedback).
Nor should this be a surprise - what of the ancient world of learned,
literate people has aught to do with modern times, except that the people,
then and now are learned and literate? So, what of ancient times can be a
broadly appealing "classic", except that which concerns itself with the
human experience?
-k
___
{:-])))
Oct 18, 2011, 12:29:36 AM10/18/11
to
Tang Huyen wrote:
>{:-]))) wrote:
>> Tang Huyen:
>
>>> It requires mutual understanding ...
>
>> There is an essence,
>> a distillate of sum sorting,
>> or, rather, perhaps, much subtractingling,
>> found by many, ore, One, in the DDJ and Zz.
>>
>> Latching onto what it is
>> might be akin to flipping a switch
>> or riding a bike, swimming, etc..
>>
>> It may entail an experience.
>> Milage varies.
>>
>> - making senses
>> out of non-senses -
>
>One would assume that in mystical vision or
>intuition or experience or whatever, people
>who share it would ... share it, namely a
>mystical vision or intuition or experience
>or whatever.
>
>That part is expectable.
Take water for instance.
>{:-]))) wrote:
>> Tang Huyen:
>
>>> It requires mutual understanding ...
>
>> There is an essence,
>> a distillate of sum sorting,
>> or, rather, perhaps, much subtractingling,
>> found by many, ore, One, in the DDJ and Zz.
>>
>> Latching onto what it is
>> might be akin to flipping a switch
>> or riding a bike, swimming, etc..
>>
>> It may entail an experience.
>> Milage varies.
>>
>> - making senses
>> out of non-senses -
>
>One would assume that in mystical vision or
>intuition or experience or whatever, people
>who share it would ... share it, namely a
>mystical vision or intuition or experience
>or whatever.
>
>That part is expectable.
>But after sharing such a mystical vision or
>intuition or experience or whatever, they
>then come out of it and express it, and the
>weird thing is that they express it using a
>rigourous logic, which is also a structure
>of pure reason. A mystical vision or
>intuition or experience or whatever, which
>is supposed to be ineffable or to escape
>language and thought, is (not flung about
>haphazardly, in whichever way, like
>spaghetti or "mixed soup", but) strictly
>reduced to a rational structure of the most
>rigourous kind.
>
>That part is not expectable.
Probably even moreso with swimming.
>If others charge in to study the expression
>of it (like the texts or scriptures that
>such expression leaves behind, perhaps
>thousands of years later and on the other
>end of the world), but fail to synch in
>with the attendant logic (aka the rational
>structure), they are quite likely to
>misunderstand the mystical vision or
>intuition or experience or whatever. This,
>even if the people who study it use the
>same (or almost the same) language, like
>Chinese, modern as contrasted with ancient.
>As I said, the last people who understood
>the vision of early Daoism were French
>scholars in the early part of last century,
>just before WW II. They did not talk
>explicitly of such rational structure, but
>let it through intact. Afterward, it got
>lost, and even Chinese scholars of the
>present have no inkling of it.
>
>Basically, present-day Chinese scholars
>have lost touch with traditional modes of
>thought. They are utter aliens to
>traditional modes of thought.
there may need to be a wave.
>Mystery of mystery!
Fun ride!
Hawaiians maybe called it he'e nalu.
When and if it developed into a philosophy
or a religion, if there is a difference between them,
if it could ever be written and understood
without having been experienced
or even seen in action,
I don't know.
http://coffeetimes.com/surf.htm
{:-])))
Oct 18, 2011, 8:51:34 AM10/18/11
to
kamerm wrote:,
> ... with an external
who makes very, very, very small
tiny things. So small that he needs to work
in between heart-beats.
Willard Wigan.
Dalton Ghetti has cool stuff too.
> ... with an external
>focus (as in learning to still breath and heart at the moment of an arrow's
>release - an ancient discipline now taught to Western competitive archers
>using bio-feedback).
I'm reminded of an artist
>release - an ancient discipline now taught to Western competitive archers
>using bio-feedback).
who makes very, very, very small
tiny things. So small that he needs to work
in between heart-beats.
Willard Wigan.
Dalton Ghetti has cool stuff too.
kamerm
Oct 18, 2011, 8:59:31 AM10/18/11
to
Zz would have loved it
-k
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