Freefalling...
liberator.net
<<You know The Liber8r is making me famous on his website.>>
You mean laughingstock, right?
<<So, yup. After my initiation as a Firewalker I'll jump out of an airplane
without a parachute for the Liber8r.>>
I'll get the Contadina Crushed Tomato cans ready...
<<Of course, I'll be handcuffed to the Liber8r who will also accompany me,
and have no parachute either. I'll try to use my faith to save me, and he
can try to use the Scientific Method or Logic to try to save himself as we
fall. Providing he has the courage of his convictions.>>
If I'm using science, the scientific method and logic, I can't be handcuffed
to you because I'll be wearing a parachute. I'll be watching you as you
sadly plummet to your doom from Newton's well quantified gravity.
<<I have the courage of my convictions; but does he?>>
Gee, I wish you would have contacted me directly with this challenge. I
almost missed this message and this GOLDEN opportunity. Remember, everyone
read it for themselves: Lani plans on using his faith to stop himself from
falling victim to gravity after jumping out of an airplane. This is just
too much folks... lol...
--
The Liberator
E-Mail: ne...@liberator.net
Web Site: http://www.liberator.net/
Kevin Stewart
Culture' movement, celebrated his birthdays by jumping out of a plane
"solo". He made many jumps, too, dying in his 90's as I recall. (Not from a
jump)
I can't remember how high he jumped from though. Sorry.
Personally, I prefer earthbound, like Jack LaLane -- but drier!
- the ghoti
liberator.net wrote in message <7s3b4v$8fd$1...@Nntp1.mcs.net>...
Lani
> >
> >E-Mail: ne...@liberator.net
> >Web Site: http://www.liberator.net/
> >
> >
> >
Thank you for posting the Liber8r's demonstrated cowardice.
I am dead serious and neither kidding nor joking when I accepted his two
challenges.
At any time he specifies, after my training, I will jump out of an airplane that
he supplies, without a parachute and armed only by my faith in my gods. PROVIDED
that the Liber8r and I are handcuffed together at the time, and he also is armed
only with his faith in Science. He is welcome to use his Scientific Attitude and
Logic to try to match my faith. And he may not use a parachute.
That he has chickened out and shown his true cowardice does not surprise me.
But you have not posted my acceptance of his first challenge, which I am anxious
to check. He "claims:" that "Science" has proven that a person can walk over
nearly molten, luminous lava without injury. Whereas I calm that to walk over
450 feet of molten (underneath the thin congealed surface) lava requires the
supernatural protection of God. As was established by the earliest member of my
specific branch (Huna) of the religion of Polynesia.
I dispute his empty claim, and have assured him that I will walk the same lava
flow that has just burned his feet off, under the lovely protection of the
goddess Ho`anoIwahinenuiho`aLani.'
I DO NOT DOUBT that he will chicken out of his own challenge too.
After all, he "claims" to be a "scientist".
But assuming that he agrees to be tested on his own statement of being able to
walk on Fire (in this case, molten lava) without harm, then please repost it to
me.
You know, its funny. On his website he pretends that I have ever spoken about
walking on wood that is on fire. But I never have. Not once. He had to pretend
(lie) on his own website because he is too much of a coward to actually repeat
the Huna test. To walk 450 feet across a self-luminous lava flow of highly heat
conducting volcanic glass. And with the molten lava still flowing underneath the
slightly solidified surface.
Unfortunately for his lies, I am very serious about these matters. I seriously
accept his challenges. But he is to much of a coward to take me up on them.
LOL, what a joke he makes of his "Science".
--
Aloha,
Kahuna Lani
Pomaika`i na mea a pau!
(And everything is blessed.)
Kevin Stewart
Lani wrote in message <37E53EA9...@earthlink.net>...
Whoa, Nellie! If I read this right, I haven't posted Lani's acceptance of
Liberators' first challenge.
I'm lost. Please clarify.
I thought the plane was Libs idea & walking was yours. In any case, I must
have missed my role in the duel. Sorry! (My last e-mail from you was
yesterday & friday - 1/day - neither about this.
And I don't remember even inferring hesitancy on the part of anyone save HIM
& the Rev-ved up Dippy Over Porn CMF, (maybe not DOP). Could you please
refresh my memory on the cowardice bit, since I may not be getting
everything or reading all of everything.
>But you have not posted my acceptance of his first challenge, which I am
anxious
>to check. He "claims:" that "Science" has proven that a person can walk
over
>nearly molten, luminous lava without injury. Whereas I calm that to walk
over
>450 feet of molten (underneath the thin congealed surface) lava requires
the
>supernatural protection of God. As was established by the earliest member
of my
>specific branch (Huna) of the religion of Polynesia.
>
>I dispute his empty claim, and have assured him that I will walk the same
lava
>flow that has just burned his feet off, under the lovely protection of the
>goddess Ho`anoIwahinenuiho`aLani.'
>
>I DO NOT DOUBT that he will chicken out of his own challenge too.
>
>After all, he "claims" to be a "scientist".
>
>But assuming that he agrees to be tested on his own statement of being able
to
>walk on Fire (in this case, molten lava) without harm, then please repost
it to
>me.
I & the Liberator aren't -- at this end -- in communication on this matter
anywhere but on this NG. And that's probably best as far as this challenge
goes.
My rules for e-mail. (for the record):
Anything I get not explicitly 'Off the Record' might be alluded to, (i.e.
"Tell Lani he's fried his brains clear to the soles" would result in my
either saying nothing or "The Liberator disagrees with you, Lani"
(ILLUSTRATION ONLY!)
Anything I get from leland milton(g) goldblatt is not private, especially
since he agreed not to e-mail me, and will be subject to publicity, (incl.
commentary & snipping, but not re-wording). However percieved, this is to
keep an e-fence/wall up! Some one wanna let him know this directly, please
feel free!
- the ghoti
liberator.net
Lani <kahun...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:37E53EA9...@earthlink.net...
<<Thank you for posting the Liber8r's demonstrated cowardice.>>
Cowardice doesn't stop me from jumping out of an airplane without a
parachute, it's the knowledge of our physical laws. You really do have too
much faith ON the brain and not enough information IN the brain. You do a
disservice to the faith-community.
<<At any time he specifies, after my training, I will jump out of an
airplane that he supplies, without a parachute and armed only by my faith in
my gods. PROVIDED that the Liber8r and I are handcuffed together at the
time, and he also is armed only with his faith in Science. He is welcome to
use his Scientific Attitude and Logic to try to match my faith. And he may
not use a parachute.>>
You just contradicted yourself. Logic and knowledge of science will prevent
me from jumping out of an airplane without a parachute. That's how science
will save me, through the knowledge it helped generate. However, I can't
get the mental image of you flapping your arms trying to overcome Newton's
well quantified gravity out of my head. [It's hilarious!] Also, I have no
desire to be handcuffed to you or any other male you sicko. :)
<<But you have not posted my acceptance of his first challenge, which I am
anxious to check. He "claims:" that "Science" has proven that a person can
walk over nearly molten, luminous lava without injury.>>
This is what I presented as evidence, nothing more:
http://www.mastery.net/firewalk/index.html
<<Whereas I calm that to walk over 450 feet of molten (underneath the thin
congealed surface) lava requires the supernatural protection of God. >>
Where's a straightjacket when you need one?
<<He had to pretend (lie) on his own website because he is too much of a
coward to actually repeat
the Huna test.>>
Don't get testy, you grass-skirt-wearing beachcomber. I didn't claim I
could defy gravity, now did I? And that, I reported with a small amount of
artistic freedom. :)
<<LOL, what a joke he makes of his "Science".>>
The acceleration due to gravity [9.8 meters per second per second or 32 feet
per second per second] is no joke. After watching Superman programs [in the
50's?] kids jumped off of garages and huit themselves. Lani, you're ready
to jump out of an airplane after reading your own salmon myths. You're
swimming against the current of truth on most issues, including this one.
--
The Liberator
Lani
Kevin Stewart wrote:
> Whoa, Nellie! If I read this right, I haven't posted Lani's acceptance of
> Liberators' first challenge.
Close enough for government work.
> I thought the plane was Libs idea & walking was yours.
1/2 right. BOTH the plane and the Firewalk were HIS ideas. Leber8r said that
"science" has proven that fire doesn't burn, and that the Firewalk is bogus, and
that anyone (which, I can only suppose includes himself) can walk on Fire
unharmed. I told him I would go with him, just to keep him company. You said
that you wanted asbestos boots. And, since this is serious to me, I told you
that I thought that it was a good idea. When Liber8r repeats in good scientific
fashion Huna's founding in the fire; Dr. Brigham walked across a lava flow that
was still luminous, and was composed of nearly molten volcanic glass, which is
highly heat conducting. To repeat the experiment is to cross a full 450 feet,
just as Dr. Brigham did.
After all, great claims require great proofs; and Liber8r's claim that anyone
can walk on fire requires that the same conditions be met as under the
protection of religion when the current regeneration of Huna was made.
> And I don't remember even inferring hesitancy on the part of anyone save HIM
>
That's because, the Liber8r is the only one, after making the challenges, and my
acceptance of them, he chickened out. He made his ridiculous claims. He
challenged me. I accepted. He chickened out.
One of us has the courage of his convictions. One of us does not.
> I & the Liberator aren't -- at this end -- in communication on this matter
> anywhere but on this NG. And that's probably best as far as this challenge
> goes.
>
That's OK. I just ignore his posts, that's all.
But you agreed to be in Hawaii with us, didn't you?
liberator.net
<<That's OK. I just ignore [The Liberator's] posts, that's all.>>
You can ignore my posts and liberator.net but you can't ignore Newton's
quantified gravity.
[The acceleration due to gravity on Earth close to its surface is 9.8
meters/sec/sec or 32 ft/sec/sec.]
http://dir.yahoo.com/Science/Physics/Mechanics/Gravity/Theories/
Kevin Stewart
trap! Next yr's as good as any!
Lani wrote in message <37E59CA0...@earthlink.net>...
Lani
Kevin Stewart wrote:
> Well, I sure wouldn't mind being there sometime before it's all tourist
> trap! Next yr's as good as any!
>
GREAT!
I'll be trained in about July of next year, so anytime after that that the
Liber8r builds up his nerve to walk on molten lava, barefoot, as so many Kahunas
have done before, is just fine by me. And I'll be right at his side, at least
until he notices that his feet have cooked, then I'll continue to the other side
of the volcanic glass lava flow. Then its your turn to try to save him for the
parachuteless airplane jump later on---I have accepted his challenge, but he has
chickened out so far...
So much for his faith in his Science!
And did you see him whining in his post? "I only posted what someone else said."
He stated it as truth until I called him on it.
He attacks me because I have a faith, makes claims of super-ability, that anyone
can Firewalk, then chickens out, most blatantly, when I agree to test my faith
in Huna against his faith in Science.
What a fool.
But hey, maybe he'll find his spine and agree to what he himself suggested?
John C. Randolph
> At any time he specifies, after my training, I will jump out of an airplane that
> he supplies, without a parachute and armed only by my faith in my gods. PROVIDED
> that the Liber8r and I are handcuffed together at the time, and he also is armed
> only with his faith in Science.
Let's see. This boils down to: Lani will attempt suicide, if an only if
lib agrees to do it at the same time. Since Lani says he'll do it, and
lib says he won't, Lani is brave and lib is a coward.
WHAT A LOAD OF TRIPE.
Lani, you don't get brownie points for being brave by making asinine
proclamations like this. If god will save you from splattering your
pre-scrambled brain on the landscape, he'll do it whether or not
liberator decides to kill himself with you.
-jcr
"All the world's a stage, and all the men and women rather poorly rehearsed."
Lani
> I find it marvelous that the offer by someone, who believes they can
> stop
> falling, would WANT to be handcuffed to some one who cant stop
> falling...
>
> "Well I've stopped now I suggest you do the same...uhh, you can stop
> now you
> know?...anytime..."
I find it hard to follow your reasoning.
But if you mean that *I* think *I* can stop falling, you're wrong. Under
the Firewalking immunity, people walk on glass shards and are not cut,
they walk on highly heat conducting volcanic glass and are not burned,
metal bars are put against the front of our necks, where the little "v"
shape is, the most vulnerable and lethal part of your body, and the bar
is pushed on until it either bends or it collapses the person's windpipe
and they die from internal strangulation. But under the Fireimmunity,
the bar bends. What are the limits? Who knows until they are tested my
more and more dangerous things?
Liber8r made the offer to me. I merely accepted it.
But someone should have told him: "Never ask someone to do something you
are too much of a coward to do yourself."
He boldly stated that Science has proved that fire doesn't burn, and
that the Firewalk is bogus. I merely denied that, and asked him to prove
his thesis with an experiment. The same as we of the Huna religion
conducted in 1872, and walk over a lava flow of some 450 feet in breadth
over nearly molten volcanic glass.
I even offered to be at his side to provide him company while he burned
his feet off.
And I'd be barefoot.
Then he wanted me to jump out of an airplane armed only by my faith in
my religion. I thought about this, then agreed; so long as we were under
the same conditions, and he would be handcuffed to me (to insure that he
wasn't a coward again).
This is ESSENTIAL; in a Scientific Experiment, he is what is called a
Control group as opposed to me, the Experimental Group.
As soon as I accepted this challenge from him, he started whining and
denied that he had challenged me, even though it is on his website.
Lani
Lani wrote:
> Jonathan Siregar wrote:
>
> --
I know you're confused, so I'll try and straighten this all out in your
mind.
The Liber8r decided, as is his intellect, to be a smart ass.
Knowing that I am a man of the cloth (pagan cloth, but still a man of
Faith), he challenged my to jump out of an airplane he would provide,
without a parachute, to test my faith and my god.
He never imagined that I was really a man of Faith, and posted his
"Challenge" on his website, using my name too.
But then I got to thinking about bread. Ever wonder about bread?
So two cavewomen are looking for berries in the field. They come across some
wheat plants that have gone to seed. The tiny "berries" are inedible. So
what do they do? They spend all day picking them!
But each "berry" has other useless dead leaves glued onto them. So what do
these two cavewomen decide to do? Pound them with rocks to remove the chaff
from the grain!
Now they have a pile of inedible tiny seeds. They look at each other and
wonder what to do with the rest of their day. What do they decide to do?
Pound the tiny seeds into a powder with rocks!
Now they have a pile of dust. What do they decide to do with the dust? Why
mix it with water and fungus.
Then they have fun stretching it out. But it is a sticky toy. So they set it
aside.
It grows. This scares them so that they beat the stuffing out of it with
clubs. Several times.
So then they decide that have to kill it, so they throw it into the fire.
After the fire goes out, they pull out the now-dead mass.
And then what do they decide to do with it? Why, eat it of course!
And the rest is history.
What are the limitations of Firewalking immunity? What are the limits of
faith? We don't know until it's tested.
So I decided to accept Liber8r's challenge.
But he "claims" to be a man of Science.
What will happen if I survive the fall? He'll just laugh in his smug little
way, and mock it, say that it wasn't high enough, etc.
So what to do?
Science answers that question by establishing the "Controlled Experiment".
In that, there has to be a Control Group and an Experimental Group.
The reason I am demanding that we are handcuffed together is because he is a
demonstrated coward. He wants me to do something that he is afraid to do
himself.
There will be one of four outcomes: 1, we both live, in which case nothing
is proven; 2, we both die, in which case nothing is proven. 3, Although
parachuteless, perhaps he can open his shirt and use it as a "cape" and fly
like Superman. Or perhaps he can take off his pants. Knot the ends of the
legs, and inflate it above his head by holding onto the waistband. In any
case, he has his faith in Science. Perhaps he will live and I will die. Then
he has shown the superiority of Science over Religion. 4, Or if and only if
he dies, and I survive will I, and religion, be vindicated.
In any case, it is ALL HIS IDEA!!!
You will notice in his posts to me, he is simply whining and mocking and not
addressing the issues. Issues which he himself brought up. In other words,
showing everyone he is a coward.
Yup, it's time he put up or shut up.
Lani
John C. Randolph wrote:
> Lani sez:
>
> > At any time he specifies, after my training, I will jump out of an airplane that
> > he supplies, without a parachute and armed only by my faith in my gods. PROVIDED
> > that the Liber8r and I are handcuffed together at the time, and he also is armed
> > only with his faith in Science.
>
> Let's see. This boils down to: Lani will attempt suicide, if and only if
> lib agrees to do it at the same time. Since Lani says he'll do it, and
> lib says he won't, Lani is brave and lib is a coward.
Yes, that is true, if you say so. Lani IS brave and Liber8r IS a coward.
However I'm not so brave, I only have my faith.
And ALWAYS remember, sport, that this IS LIBER8R's IDEA! And not my own.
In order to do a "scientific experiment" we MUST have BOTH a control group and an
experimental group.
--
Aloha,
Kahuna Lani
Pomaika`i na mea a pau!
(And everything is blessed.)
John C. Randolph
"liberator.net" wrote:
> The acceleration due to gravity [9.8 meters per second per second or 32 feet
> per second per second] is no joke.
Of course, that's the acceleration due to gravity towards an earth-sized
mass in a vacuum. In the atmosphere, it is countered by air resistance
which is frontal area x Coefficient of Drag x Velocity cubed.
Strangely enough, there are reports survivors of falls from aircraft.
One person had the incredible good fortune to land on a pile of
newly-deposited, clean fill dirt on a construction site. He ended up
about 10 feet below the surface, with one shoulder driven several inches
toward his spine, both femurs broken, one shoulder blade shattered, and
several skull fractures.
It would seem that Lani has no concept of what courage actually is.
Proclaiming with great bravado that one is willing to perform conjuring
tricks like walking on hot coals/lava/whatever, or that one is willing
to jump out of an airplane, does not demonstrate courage.
Sargeant York, Raoul Wallenberg, and Martin Luther King were brave.
Contrast them to Evel Kneivel, who is an idiot.
Lani is merely a loudmouth trying to bury his critics in blustering nonsense.
Lani
Hawai'i, scheduled for mid-September of this year ('99)
Posted by Not a firewalk, but a LAVAwalk for a very good cause! on July
23, 1999 at 00:17:35:
We of POWER UNLIMITED are scheduling a 50 foot lavawalk on the Big
Island of Hawai'i. We're expecting a big turn out,
much success, and the proceeds (with the exclusion of cost of
accomodations for walkers) are to be donated to help Melissa
Meyers, 15 years of age, born with Spina Bifida. She has bravely
undergone over 30 major surgeries thus far and faces yet
another in February. MANY of these surgeries have been life threatening.
Her father, Bruce Meyers Master Magician, will also be present and we
will have Dr. Ray Hyman present. After this we WILL
go on to prove the Amazing Randi wrong or, at the least, to prove that
he has made it so his $1 million dollar 'award' is not
attainable, thus having him withdraw. (We DO make it clear, however,
that we greatly respect the work of James Randi in
debunking phony 'psychics' and taking == for the most part == senior
citizens out of their money).
We also have firewalking workshops/firewalks every other Saturday night
on O'ahu's beautiful North Shore.
Please email either Firew...@aol.com or IWAL...@aol.com for further
instruction/questions.
Thank you!
Lani
--- Shiva --- wrote:
> The best I ever heard of in Hawaii, was a couple of Kahuna took a
> white for a 30 minute stroll on lava. hard enough to support him, hot
> enough he lost his shoes and socks to his knees... no burns BTW.
>
> Shiva
> ---Nuk pu Nuk---
Thank you for your support.
liberator.net
Lani <kahun...@earthlink.net>
<<The Liber8r says that "science" HAS PROVEN THAT FIRE DOESN'T BURN, OF
COURSE, THAT'S REAL SENSIBLE. WHEN I INVITE HIM TO PROVE IT, HE GIVES ME
SOMEONE ELSE'S URL, AND THEN HIDES AND WHINES.>>
I did? Please post the original article, including the date and time.
Scientific evidence shows that fire does burn...duh.
I'm still waiting for you to drop out of an airplane without a parachute.
[I'm still in a slight state of shock over your desire to die via gravity.]
Contadina [ http://www.contadina.com/ ] look out...
Lani
Well, the Liber8r has been shooting off his mouth again.
His mouth is as free as his intentions to carry out his challenges is
limited.
A strange way for a man to be.
Anyway. Now after having proclaimed that "Science" has proven that the
fire of the Firewalk doesn't burn. I confronted him and accepted his
challenge to walk on lava in Hawaii. Natch, he chickened out.
Then we said we would jump out of an airplane without a parachute. I
agreed, he ran away and hid.
Now he suggests that we go into a tank with a Great White Shark.
I've taken a couple of days to think it over.
The communication between the Polynesian religion and Mano (Sharks) has
been somewhat spotty since the introduction of Christianity, which
doesn't encourage interspecies communication amongst its Priests and
Ministers.
Yet it is not unknown. Indeed the National Geographic Society (more of
"science" than our own Liber8r here), sent a camera crew to film some
Polynesian children singing the Calling Chant for the Great Sea Turtles
and Sharks.
They recorded on film the arrival of Great Sea Turtles and Sharks at the
ancient calling.
But, it is unknown if they will respond to a Kahuna Huna. After all, our
sect didn't come into existence until 1872.
So OK. If the Liber8r has attempted to Firewalk in all his Scientific
Arrogance, then his feet will have been burnt off. In any case, I
suggest that we put him into a harness, and dip him into the shark tank.
The dips will be numerated and timed. It will continue until the Great
White Shark attacks his leg (stump). If the G. W. Shark doesn't attack
Liber8r's leg stumps then there can be no experiment, as the "Control
Group" has only shown that the Shark isn't in a bad mood or hungry.
If, however, the shark DOES attack Liber8r, then it will be moved into
another holding tank to get it out of the Liber8r's blood (we aren't
testing a feeding frenzy after all).
I will then get into the same kind of harness. I will sing the anceint
Shark Calling and Pacification chant. Then I will signal the crew, and
be dipped for exactly the same number of times and for the same
durations as the Liber8r was dipped.
If the Shark doesn't attack me, then Huna wins and Science, once again,
fails.
Now don't anyone write to me about my acceptance of Liber8r's
"Scientific" Challenge. I don't want to hear it.
It is his idea. Talk to him about it.
Kevin Stewart
There was no "we"!
There is no "challenge"!
Can there be no more?
Lani wrote in message <37EAD0DE...@earthlink.net>...
>Aloha,
snipped
>Anyway. Now after having proclaimed that "Science" has proven that the
>fire of the Firewalk doesn't burn.
As he said, "Where"? did he say fire doesn't burn, (or that he will jump or
that he will feed the fishies or that he will 'hot foot' it?)
This has gone on long enough!!! Read his material! He speaks of placing a
can, of filming YOUR flying, etc. ALL groud crew activities Now he asks a
valid question. You are responding to his Post. READ
IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Show where he CHALLLENGES ANYONE ON ANYTHING except conceptually,
(Science v. Religion)!!!
>I confronted him and accepted his
>challenge to walk on lava in Hawaii. Natch, he chickened out.
You have to agree to something to chicken out. That's why divorce is always
AFTER marriage! Birth is always AFTER .... that! And so on.
I have seen & I have said there is N O proof of a challenge
or Lib agreeing to get "high"/all wet/warmed over!
Show where he did, then speak of hypocricy/cowardice/his mama!!!
You want him to put up. Show him what he has agreed to 'put up' to!
Because he never challenged/spoke of HIS jumping/swimming/etc. Watching,
yes. Doing, no.
>
>Then [when?] we said [where?] we [who?] would jump out of an airplane
without >a parachute. I agreed, he ran away and hid.
>
>Now he suggests that we go into a tank with a Great White Shark.
No He suggests YOU do
>I've taken a couple of days to think it over.
Take a few minutes to READ it over
>The communication between the Polynesian religion and Mano (Sharks) has
>been somewhat spotty since the introduction of Christianity, which
>doesn't encourage interspecies communication amongst its Priests and
>Ministers.
>
>Yet it is not unknown. Indeed the National Geographic Society (more of
>"science" than our own Liber8r here), sent a camera crew to film some
>Polynesian children singing the Calling Chant for the Great Sea Turtles
>and Sharks.
>
>They recorded on film the arrival of Great Sea Turtles and Sharks at the
>ancient calling.
"Calling" & 'climbing over' ain't the same!
>But, it is unknown if they will respond to a Kahuna Huna. After all, our
>sect didn't come into existence until 1872.
>
>So OK. If the Liber8r has attempted to Firewalk in all his Scientific
>Arrogance, then his feet will have been burnt off. In any case, I
>suggest that we put him into a harness, and dip him into the shark tank.
>The dips will be numerated and timed. It will continue until the Great
>White Shark attacks his leg (stump). If the G. W. Shark doesn't attack
>Liber8r's leg stumps then there can be no experiment, as the "Control
>Group" has only shown that the Shark isn't in a bad mood or hungry.
Why don't you go first here? Incidentally, people have been filmed swimming
with the sharks, (the film-makers to begin with!). One of the most
noticable instances involved testing a shark-proof suit, (it wasn't
completely shark-proof). The suited person had to work to get attacked!!
(Sharks are misunderstood in many ways).
>If, however, the shark DOES attack Liber8r, then it will be moved into
>another holding tank to get it out of the Liber8r's blood (we aren't
>testing a feeding frenzy after all).
I'm pretty sure suicide is illegal in HI.
>I will then get into the same kind of harness. I will sing the anceint
>Shark Calling and Pacification chant. Then I will signal the crew, and
>be dipped for exactly the same number of times and for the same
>durations as the Liber8r was dipped.
You just blew it! Liberator has to be dipped until attacked? Then so do
you? Also, you'll need another shark as Libs will be in a bloodlust.
(Sharks are understood in many ways).
>If the [scared & territorial] Shark doesn't attack me, then Huna wins and
Science, >once again fails.
Illogical and erroneous, Kahuna! Faith cannot be proven. Tempting ones'
Deity is never(?) an approved activity. Nothing has ever convinced the
skeptic, except the well-backed promise of an immediate, substantial
misfortune, such as death. You're turning a religion into a crapshoot
>
>Now don't anyone write to me about my acceptance of Liber8r's
>"Scientific" Challenge. I don't want to hear it.
>
>It is his idea. Talk to him about it.
No, it's your terms & conditions to your version of his asinine idea!
What induces a shark to not eat on minute & to"wolf"/"pig out" the next is
an uncontrollable variable.
"Putting" T Robbins -- a Christian(?) -- into a 'religious' state to explain
his ability is reaching, If he could go into the same state you speak of,
why doesn't he REALLY prove his point (& enhance his sales) by doing a LAVA
walk! Because his state isn't one of ANY DIVINE ORIGIN -- and HE knows it
(Note: HE never claimed it was Religious -- and not (just) because of the
alienation factor that would result!)
And you are turning a religion into a sideshow
-the ghoti
snipped
Lani
You know, I'm really getting impressed with all the Firewalk leaders.
And they are so much better people than the "Scientists" I've seen.
(However I don't know that all Scientists.)
The Firewalking craze has just about faded out. More and more the
Firewalking site links go to websites that are no longer functional.
And of course, they have to deal with ignorant "Scientists" who exist,
not to discover something they don't know about, but others do. So they
make up their stupid excuses for theories and present them as "facts",
and ignore all the evidence that opposes them. But still some people
listen to them. Even some in this NG.
But still, these unsuspecting priests of an unknown religion continue
on. Making new discoveries the "Scientists" can't afford to explore.
Lest their world view be accosted by the facts.
Meanwhile the websites become more religious/spiritual every day, less
and less Psychological.
And as the Priesthood is driven underground, it explores the Grace of Io
even more.
Now, there are obscure mentions of the razor sharp, metal tipped arrows.
What are they being used for? When I had a girlfriend who was a Sioux
Holy Woman, I found out that at the time of the battle of the Little Big
Horn, several Indians were "bulletproof". Could it be that the
Fireimmunity which protects against internal strangulation, or cuts or
burns---also protects from penetration from weapons?
Man, what a secret knowledge, if so. And held only by the religious
amongst us, and unknown to our Scientists. And based on knowledge that
they can't touch.
Based on Beauty rather than Truth, and thus beyond the call of the
Scientists.
Lani
Kevin Stewart wrote:
> This is no good!
>
> There was no "we"!
Clearly, we don't think the same way. I believe in implied consent. I believe
that if a man claims to have faith in Science and be a poor man's Amazing Randi,
and then challenges another to a dare, then his previous statement implies a
Scientific controlled experiment. And honor would only be served if he were to
be the Control or Experimental Group, as the case may be.
Secondly, "Never ask a person to do what you are afraid of doing." is a law to
any warrior. And I will enforce it as best I may in my life. For me and for
those I associate with. For such are the foundations of honor, which all
civilizations are founded on. And honor is the Will of Io as I understand it.
> There is no "challenge"!
To dare is to challenge. The exact word does not have to be used. A dare is a
challenge.
> >Anyway. Now after having proclaimed that "Science" has proven that the
> >fire of the Firewalk doesn't burn.
>
> As he said, "Where"? did he say fire doesn't burn, (or that he will jump or
> that he will feed the fishies or that he will 'hot foot' it?)
He said that the Firewalk was bogus. He said that his "Science" had proven that
the fire of the Firewalk doesn't actually burn. When I called him on it. Asked
him to back up his ludicrous statement with an experiment, and to replicate the
experiment done by my religion 125 years ago, he blanched and chickened out.
For him to claim that Science has proven that the fire of the Firewalk doesn't
really burn, is to invite another experiment. After all, extraordinary claims
require extraordinary proof. It's "put up or shut up" time for him.
But perhaps I'm wrong in this respect: he claimed that the fire of the Firewalk
doesn't burn. I took from that that he is also saying that fire doesn't burn. Do
you think that I was fudging? To me, they are related and somewhat the same. "He
says, "the fire of the Firewalk doesn't burn." I "hear" him also say therefore
that, "fire doesn't burn."
OK, I'll amend it, the Liber8r says that fire doesn't always burn. There, make
you happy?
> Show where he CHALLLENGES ANYONE ON ANYTHING except conceptually,
> (Science v. Religion)!!!
Ok. So you agree that he challenges "conceptually", but not what then?
> You have to agree to something to chicken out. That's why divorce is always
> AFTER marriage! Birth is always AFTER .... that! And so on.
It was HIS proposal, not mine. All I did was add my, very sensible, caveats to
HIS proposals.
He proposes, I dispose.
> Show where he did, then speak of hypocricy/cowardice/his mama!!!
Repeat of "never ask a man..."etc. He never spoke of his mama. The shark idea
came from his "brother".
> Why don't you go first here?
I couldn't. That would defray the Control Group. There has to be a control
Group, or it is just an anecdote, as the Liber8r has already said.
>I'm pretty sure suicide is illegal in HI.
Don't know. You can Firewalk there. In any case, since it is the Liber8r's idea,
he'll have to supply the plane. Indeed he's already mentioned the airplane
company he intends to hire.
> You just blew it! Liberator has to be dipped until attacked?
That's the only way for a Control Group to prove the Shark.
> Then so do you?
No. I'll just need to be dipped for the same number of times and length of time.
> Also, you'll need another shark as Libs will be in a bloodlust.
> (Sharks are understood in many ways).
Well, that a fly in my ointment, I suppose. I'll just have to have faith in the
Shark Calling Chants.
> >If the [scared & territorial] Shark doesn't attack me, then Huna wins and
> Science, >once again fails.
>
> Illogical and erroneous, Kahuna! Faith cannot be proven.
My Faith was proven with every Religious Healing I facilitated. My Faith was
proven by every successful and possessed insane person I healed with a Kala
(Exorcism). My Faith is proven by even Ki`i Kukui which I bless and give away,
and they then turn black, as they do in the presence of the sacred.
> Tempting ones' Deity is never(?) an approved activity.
I agree. But is the Firewalk really tempting my deity?
> Nothing has ever convinced the skeptic, except the well-backed promise of an
> immediate, substantial
> misfortune, such as death.
Here I agree with you utterly and completely. After all, I posted scans of my
Radish Seed experiments here, and the Liber8r was simply more inflamed in his
insanity, wasn't he? Yes. "There are none so blind as those who will not see."
But is that the only thing?
Look at what he has dared me to do: walk on Lava, jump and fall, cohabitate with
a shark.
All these things are within my tradition somehow.
Why didn't he say, "we'll swim with Piranha?" I would have had to turn him down.
Not in my tradition. Why challenge Firewalking and not broken glass shard
walking? I would have had to turn him down again. not in my tradition.
But a shark? Yes. A lava flow? Yes. A fall? Who knows?
In his insanity, I see the mark of my God, Io, inspiring him. But not inspiring
his courage, challenging mine.
You don't see, do you? You're not angry with me, you're afraid for me.
The Liber8r is challenging my faith in my Faith. And he has chosen, unknown to
himself, what might have turned out to be chinks in my "armor". It is perhaps
so, that I may not walk on a lava overflow with him, nor swim with a shark, not
freefall with him. But I have had to be utterly serious in accepting his
challenges. If we don't do as he has suggested, then it will be because of his
cowardice and lack of faith, and not mine.
I am a Kahuna Huna Koa, a Priest of the Huna religious school and a warrior. I
have not accepted these things with any thought of my personal survival or
comfort. I have bent down to them in personal fear and faith in my Faith. I have
taken no pride in that, just humility, and a sense of satisfaction. I am
satisified, and I will be still for the moment on this.
> -the ghoti
> snipped
--
Aloha,
And thank you for your friendship,
liberator.net
--- Shiva --- wrote:
> The best I ever heard of in Hawaii, was a couple of Kahuna took a
> white for a 30 minute stroll on lava. hard enough to support him, hot
> enough he lost his shoes and socks to his knees... no burns BTW.
<<Thank you for your support.>>
Support? I think he was repeating a story he once heard. Anecdotal
evidence isn't proof.
liberator.net
<<And of course, they have to deal with ignorant "Scientists" who exist, not
to discover something they don't know about, but others do. So they make up
their stupid excuses for theories and present them as "facts", and ignore
all the evidence that opposes them. But still some people listen to them.
Even some in this NG.>>
Oh boy... If this is your view of science, it's no wonder why your grasp on
logic is so weak. Scientists are interested in truth. If there is no
evidence to substantiate a claim, they research it further. It's better
than mindlessly believing every wild story that comes along, especially when
better explanations already exist.
<<But still, these unsuspecting priests of an unknown religion continue on.
Making new discoveries the "Scientists" can't afford to explore. Lest their
world view be accosted by the facts.>>
Since these priests do not conduct reproducable experiments, nor are they
interested in truth by your own explanation below, these discoveries are
more on the order of fantasical, yet beautiful stories.
<<Meanwhile the websites become more religious/spiritual every day, less and
less Psychological.>>
Actually, porn dominates the Internet, for good or for bad.
<<Could it be that the Fireimmunity which protects against internal
strangulation, or cuts or burns---also protects from penetration from
weapons?>>
I guess if it were tested, we might know for sure. Until then, it's just a
cute story.
<<Man, what a secret knowledge, if so. And held only by the religious
amongst us, and unknown to our Scientists. And based on knowledge that they
can't touch. Based on Beauty rather than Truth, and thus beyond the call of
the Scientists.>>
Even though your last sentence was a sentence fragment, it was revealing.
By your own testimony, the stories some priests "discover" are hinged on
beauty, not truth. Need I say more?
:)
liberator.net
<<Clearly, we don't think the same way. I believe in implied consent.>>
Ohhh, I IMPLIED consent [shaking head in disbelief].
<<I believe that if a man claims to have faith in Science and be a poor
man's Amazing Randi, and then challenges another to a dare, then his
previous statement implies a Scientific controlled experiment. And honor
would only be served if he were to be the Control or Experimental Group, as
the case may be.>>
A dare becomes an experiment? I thought the dare was humorous but your
"reasoning" is by far more funny.
<<He said that the Firewalk was bogus. He said that his "Science" had proven
that the fire of the Firewalk doesn't actually burn.>>
As my previous posts still exist on this newsgroup, you will find that I
said [paraphrase]: non-faith firewalks have been done without injury too. I
also supplied a website that has actual video of a non-faith firewalk and
other documents too. [ again: http://www.mastery.net/firewalk/index.html ]
His deliberate misdirection -- again -- ventures into the sad realm of lies.
<<Do you think that I was fudging? To me, they are related and somewhat the
same. "He says, "the fire of the Firewalk doesn't burn." I "hear" him also
say therefore that, "fire doesn't burn.">>
What you 'hear' and what I say are two totally different conversations;
however, I'm not willing to chaulk up this error to 'miscomminication.'
<<OK, I'll amend it, the Liber8r says that fire doesn't always burn. There,
make you happy?>>
Let's be accurate. Under certain circumstances, heat will not always damage
the human body. The variables in this discussion are numerous.
<<The shark idea came from his "brother".>>
I still would like to see you use your 'faith' to stop an attack made on you
by a great white shark.
<<In any case, since it is the Liber8r's idea, he'll have to supply the
plane. Indeed he's already mentioned the airplane company he intends to hire
.>>
I'll make payment of the jump contingient on your dive without a parachute.
Of course, I will have to reimburse Lani's estate directly after the
horrible, yet predictable, conclusion.
<<Here I agree with you utterly and completely. After all, I posted scans of
my Radish Seed experiments here, and the Liber8r was simply more inflamed in
his insanity, wasn't he? Yes. "There are none so blind as those who will not
see.">>
Uhh... A few dot's in a picture posted on the Interent is proof that you
know something about software, that's it.
<<Look at what he has dared me to do: walk on Lava, jump and fall,
cohabitate with a shark. All these things are within my tradition
somehow.>>
Well let's set up the camcorder, buy lots of good film in advance, and start
rolling. I cannot imagine the increased traffic my site would get if I
posted such a faith experiement gone bad. I hate to profit from someone
else's loss, but in your case, I'd make an exception.
<<The Liber8r is challenging my faith in my Faith.>>
...and no thanks for my efforts? :)
<<If we don't do as he has suggested, then it will be because of his
cowardice and lack of faith, and not mine.>>
I don't want to IMPLY acceptance, but are you agreeing to take a 'faith
experiment?'
Kevin Stewart
actions, as blind faith often does. The "indian" was killed, captured &
christianized and 'bulletproofing' was forgotten -- rightly, but too late,
as many Sioux & their quality of life will attest.
Bravery has its place, and it's not beside reckless foolishness ot
superstition!
Lani wrote in message <37EAEB90...@earthlink.net>...
>Aloha,
snipped
>When I had a girlfriend who was a Sioux
>Holy Woman, I found out that at the time of the battle of the Little Big
>Horn, several Indians were "bulletproof". Could it be that the
>Fireimmunity which protects against internal strangulation, or cuts or
>burns---also protects from penetration from weapons?
Read "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee." [?] by Dee Brown for the effectiveness
of these beliefs. Little Big Horn has many myths, but few details certain.
>Man, what a secret knowledge, if so. And held only by the religious
>amongst us, and unknown to our Scientists. And based on knowledge that
>they can't touch.
"What one man can invent, another can discover." Sherlock Holmes/A Conan
Doyle, Doctor = Scientist & Spiritualist ("The Case of the Dancing Men."
more or less)
snipped
- the ghoti
Kevin Stewart
liberator.net wrote in message <7sgo86$18j$1...@Nntp1.mcs.net>...
snipped
><<I believe that if a man claims to have faith in Science and be a poor
>man's Amazing Randi, and then challenges another to a dare, then his
>previous statement implies a Scientific controlled experiment. And honor
>would only be served if he were to be the Control or Experimental Group, as
>the case may be.>>
"I believe . . .."
BINGO
"And honor would ONLY. . . ." (emph added).
Your definition of honor is not universal. Libs definition of Honor is not
yours. To hold him to your code of honor is to deny him his. It thus smacks
of another religions' most practiced & cherished tenet: the duty of a
believer to try always to "correct" the notions 'non-believers' have.
- the ghoti
snipped
Lani
Kevin Stewart wrote:
> The ghostdance that was supposed to protect the "indian", led to foolish
> actions, as blind faith often does. The "indian" was killed, captured &
> christianized and 'bulletproofing' was forgotten -- rightly, but too late,
> as many Sioux & their quality of life will attest.
>
> Bravery has its place, and it's not beside reckless foolishness or
> superstition!
As is passed down amongst the Sioux, a Ghost Dancer went back to the encampment
after the battle of Little Big Horn. He tugged at his Ghost Shirt and all the
bullets that the shirt had trapped, came falling out.
Whatever happened to the Ghost Dance and Wounded Knee, it is certain that pagans
demand more from their priests and their gods than just mumbled words.
Yet, Wounded Knee happened. But were there any Ghost Dancers there prepared?
Were any of them able to enter and maintain the Firewalk immunity, if that's
what it was?
Crazy Horse was so holy that from time to time he could be seen through like a
piece of glass---he was so much in the spirit world. Yet he was assassinated,
where bullets had passed through him. He wasn't prepared. He was knifed by a
coward from behind.
So what can we learn from these things? That one must be prepared, what Tony
Robbins calls, being in "state".
One wonders if Tony Robbins will ever realize that he is a priest?
1. During the Firewalks, he tests each person that Firewalks for that mystical
allowance or space in the person's mind for the deity to enter and give the
immunity to.
Then to make sure that the ego has something to do other than disturb the sacred
space inside his mind, he has them repeat over and over the Mantra, "Cool Moss."
2. When he performed the Firewalk in Hawaii, he found a local Kahuna to bless it
before he would proceed.
3. He had one of his people seek me out somehow and call me and offer his
Seminar and Firewalk for free. I took it and was surprised that except for the
registration people at the door, no one knew me there. I had expected that it
was somehow a marketing technique, but I was never approached afterwards.
Why would he do this Kevin, if not for religious reasons?
OF COURSE he keeps this private. His ability to market his techniques is utterly
dependent of people thinking that it is a neutral Psychology.
> >Man, what a secret knowledge, if so. And held only by the religious
> >amongst us, and unknown to our Scientists. And based on knowledge that
> >they can't touch.
>
> "What one man can invent, another can discover." Sherlock Holmes/A Conan
> Doyle, Doctor = Scientist & Spiritualist ("The Case of the Dancing Men."
> more or less)
Sherlock was fictional character.
But even if true, one must be willing to look. And no scientist has had the
nerve to look at the Polynesian Firewalk. The theories they propose are
insulting in their stupidity and falseness. But this doesn't stop them from
selling their quackery, as Liber8r is doing here.
A true Scientist would have to be initiated into the Firewalk in order to
understand it.
Its just like the Ki`i Kukui I bless and then give to my haumana. They turn
black in the presence of the sacred. Otherwise I know of many people in Hawaii
who have had them for generations without them ever turning black. If they
didn't turn color with my haumana after I bless them and give them to them they
would leave me and go find a Kahuna who could actually prove that he understood
the sacred.
I had a "scientist" accuse me of fraud in making them (potentially). "Maybe I
put a special oil on them." He said.
What a fool and an idiot. I offered to train him in how to do an effective
blessing. He refused, just like our Liber8r here refuses to really find out how
these things work---by learning how to do them himself.
For what "proof" can be asserted to a skeptic who is insane? Nothing. Only if
they learn to do it themselves will they discover the religious magic of Io's
Grace. Only then will they discover that there is no "trick". Otherwise they
engage in endless speculation, as you've seen here.
>
>
> snipped
>
> - the ghoti
--
Aloha,
Lani
--- Shiva --- wrote:
> <<Thank you for your support.>>
>
> Support? I think he was repeating a story he once heard. Anecdotal
> evidence isn't proof.
>
> --
> The Liberator
>
> E-Mail: ne...@liberator.net
> Web Site: http://www.liberator.net/
>
> not heard, read about, from the guy that went walking.. Last name
> Long? Max Freedom Long I think, wrote several books on hawaiian
> religion...
> Am I right here, its been a while...???
> Shiva
> ---Nuk pu Nuk---
Yes. You are correct.
Max Freedom long was a friend of mine, and my direct Kumu (Teacher) and
Kahuna (Priest).
But don't let the Liber8r get you down. (He wants to liberate people
from their Faiths) He isn't entirely sane, you know.
liberator.net
<<But don't let the Liber8r get you down. (He wants to liberate people from
their Faiths) He isn't entirely sane, you know.>>
All of us have faith, even me. However, it is my aim to reintegrate
intellectualism into religion. Then we might finally experience a push to
learn and question again...which might put an end to ridiculous statements
made by religious nuts like: "I have enough courage and faith to jump out of
an airplane without a parachute."
I'd like to know which definition of sanity you irrationally cling to.
liberator.net
<<Crazy Horse was so holy that from time to time he could be seen through
like a piece of glass---he was so much in the spirit world. Yet he was
assassinated, where bullets had passed through him. He wasn't prepared. He
was knifed by a coward from behind.>>
Oh boy... He can't be serious, can he?
<<2. When he performed the Firewalk in Hawaii, he found a local Kahuna to
bless it before he would proceed.>>
Did the Kahuna shake a slimy squid at the embers?
<<Sherlock was fictional character.>>
How does one seperate fact from fiction within your non-logical,
take-my-word-for-it philosophy?
<<I had a "scientist" accuse me of fraud in making them (potentially).
"Maybe I put a special oil on them." He said.>>
I see you dismiss intelligent questions.
<<What a fool and an idiot. I offered to train him in how to do an effective
blessing. He refused, just like our Liber8r here refuses to really find out
how these things work---by learning how to do them himself.>>
No. I would like to learn how it's done. You see, I do think one can learn
about the dynamics of firewalking.
<<Only if they learn to do it themselves will they discover the religious
magic of Io's Grace. Only then will they discover that there is no "trick".
Otherwise they engage in endless speculation, as you've seen here.>>
Nice 180 degree attempt. I'm not the one speculating about the nature of
faith. Since non-faith firewalkers have done the deed without harm [see
http://www.mastery.net/firewalk/index.html ], it leads me to logically
believe that there is something far less mystical at hand. Then again,
mischievous gremlins and prancing unicorns could be shielding the
'faithful.'
:)
Lani
I thought you might enjoy Chapter 8 from Michael McDermott's book:
Stories of the Fire: Personal Growth Through
Firewalking
by Michael McDermott
Chapter 8
Even A Professional Skeptic Can Benefit From
Walking on Fire
David Irvin King
Order the Book Today
Since my fourth firewalk, I've begun to view my life as a series of
divine appointments and connections. Often these connections
span significant time and space. Perceiving, then maintaining this sense
of connection is necessary for me to better perceive
reality. There is a scientific basis for this. The Scientific American
issue on the Human Brain (1992) showed that, in a healthy
brain, dendrite length increases with maturity to beyond age 80. Brain
connectedness and thus, human capacity to connect ideas
increases with age. I've reached my mid-fifties, and God is blessing me
now with the capacity to better see how events and
phenomena are connected.
My profession as a senior scientist and consultant on the science of
electronic warfare has led me to travel much of the world,
often at some risk. I'm not a fearful person. I am, however, by nature
and profession, cautious, highly skeptical and
self-contained to the point of being secretive. This written expression
is a departure from my natural inclination.
Scientific Explanations of How Firewalking Works
I would like to explain several scientific phenomena which, I believe,
lead to a plausible explanation of the mechanism by which
the body of a firewalker is protected.
In the mid-1960's, I was an editor for Broadcast Engineering magazine. I
published a review of a text on the science of
soldering written by an IBM employee. This article described how
soldering flux acted as a vapor film which insulated the solder
joint to allow even melting of the solder. Recently, a colleague
described a trick played by a technician. The technician secretly
dipped his finger into solder flux. Then, after he made sure people were
watching him, he poked his finger into a 200-degree
Centigrade pot of solder.
In the early 1970's I headed a project to analyze the failure mode for a
megawatt microwave amplifier. To operate, this
microwave amplifier pumped an electron beam with the power equal to that
used by a city of 100,000 into a water-cooled
beam collector. The collector was about the size of a space-shuttle
rocket nozzle. During this analysis I learned that
considerable research, mostly by nuclear power companies had been
performed regarding the insulating properties of water at
high temperatures.
One easily observed example of the insulating properties of water is the
Leidenfrost point. The Leidenfrost point is the
temperature at which water drops dance on a skillet. This is the
temperature at which pancakes slowly brown instead of burning
and sticking to the skillet.
The Chernobyl Nuclear Reactor disaster is a dramatic example of
overheated water becoming an insulating steam layer. The
core of the reactor overheated and melted, releasing the radioactive
material.
It's plausible that the human body, which is greater than 98% water,
supplies sufficient water to protect the feet of the
firewalker. This explanation is limited. It doesn't explain how and why
some walk with no blisters, while others get burned.
My First Firewalk
I decided it was time to put faith into action and walk the fire. I was
calm until we started breaking bricks. I stepped up to the
brick stand. Following the directions of Jim Jarvis, I concentrated and
visualized my follow through. The brick broke beautifully.
Later, I tried to break another brick. I ignored my inner guidance,
which told me not to do it. I wanted to demonstrate to the
audience how "real men" broke bricks.
"This is simply a matter of brute force," I thought. I ended up
fracturing my hand, including my little finger. I suffered for several
weeks with a hurting hand, and a smarting ego. That was truly a humbling
experience for me.
My intention at my first firewalk was to overcome my fear of failing at
my business and becoming unemployed. In all the jobs
and contracts I've negotiated during my professional life, I've always
experienced fear at some level.
As I approached the fire, ready to walk, I noticed that my pulse raced.
My breathing was rapid and shallow. The first time I
crossed the coals, I experienced a sensation of heat on my feet. On my
second time across, however, the coals felt like soft, dry
sand. I had no sensation of heat on my feet. It reminded me of the song
Is That All There Is. Later that evening, after
firewalking several times, I lost my respect for the fire. I became
overly confident and ended up with a few blisters on my feet. I
went home that night and washed my feet. I put Betadine on them. The
next day they were fine.
In Spite of Blisters, I Firewalk Again
My family cat was in the process of dying of old age. All of its body
functions had essentially ceased. In spite of that, the cat
kept hanging on to its life. That cat had been with our family more than
twenty years. It was like a family member. I was never
fond of that cat because it always bit me. After my daughter sat up with
the cat for nearly 48 hours, we realized it was ready to
die. We took it to the veterinary to have it put to sleep.
The experience of having the family cat die made me aware that even in
spite of experiencing several near-fatal accidents myself,
death was very difficult for me to deal with. I was afraid of death.
That evening, Charles King and I went over to Michael's for a
firewalk. It was an extremely powerful experience largely because of the
meditations and the group connection. Towards the
end of the experience on my last walk over the fire, I had a feeling of
absolute clarity. Perhaps emptiness is a better word for it.
I felt wonderful.
Several months later, I attended my third firewalk at Eaton's mountain.
I brought my guitar that night. I hesitated before breaking
a brick. I was afraid that I'd injure my hand and not be able to play my
guitar that evening. However, I did go ahead. I broke a
brick without any problems. I played my guitar and sang an old hymn that
Benny Hinn often sings entitled God Leads His
Children.
Some through the whirlwind,
Some through the flood,
Some through the fire,
All cleansed by His love
The fire was kind to me that night. Fiery little cinders stuck to my
feet on my next-to-last step across the coals. In spite of that, I
had no burns or blisters on my feet.
Healing From an Old Neck Injury
At my fourth firewalk, my neck was bothering me. I injured my neck in a
surfing accident in 1989. That injury caused me to be
partially paralyzed from time to time. My condition worsened in the
weeks before my fourth firewalk. My doctor considered
putting me on a disability from my job.
My intention for walking on the fire that night was to deal with my
feelings and emotions around my old neck injury. The injury
caused me a great deal of pain and discomfort. I was afraid I might lose
my job. I stood and watched the fire burn down to the
coals. Suddenly, I felt hands touching my neck. A tremendous feeling of
energy surged through those hands. I experienced a
profound healing through that touch. There was a great deal of
excitement in the group that night. People respected the power
of the fire. A great deal of fear energy was transformed into positive,
loving energy that evening.
The next morning the symptoms of my neck injury were gone. My blood
pressure went down to normal. The full use of my arm
was restored. The pain was almost completely gone. The muscle tone that
was missing in parts of my arm was restored. I went
to see my neuro-physiologist. He verified that I had regained full
mobility and strength in my right arm. I owe this to a friend who
touched me with healing that night at the firewalk.
Sometimes I feel the presence of angels. I believe they're real. I can
see them. In fact, I now see the angelic presence in various
people. I believe my life is a series of divine appointments with
angelic, divine beings, whose presence radiates through my
beloved friends.
Since I started firewalking, I have experienced many positive changes in
my life. My eating habits have changed. I don't feel
false hunger anymore. I lost 35 pounds of excess weight. I reduced the
medications I took for pain. My systolic and diastolic
blood pressure both dropped 30 points. I stopped using alcohol to
relieve my pain.
Healing can and does occur at firewalks. Intention is the key. The
atmosphere at a firewalk is electric. This supercharged energy
helps create a healing atmosphere.
As a scientist, I've observed that people are sometimes capable of
activities that are beyond the scope of reason or rational
scientific explanation. There are phenomena that can only be described
as "miraculous." I sometimes wonder whether the
so-called "miraculous" might be the true reality. Perhaps what we see
with our human eyes is the real illusion.
There is a change in consciousness for those of us who continue to
experience the reality of firewalking. Mastering our fear and
walking the fire opens us to a new view of reality. Some people call
that miraculous.
We are aware that there is a truth which lies beyond the realm of our
left-brained linear human thinking. There is a realm of the
spirit. It includes the universe of infinite possibilities. The
existence of a spiritual reality comes in dreams, visions, hunches,
flashes
of inspiration and insights. To realize spiritual truth, a person has to
have an open mind. With an intention to overcome fear, one
can do so. The process of overcoming fear transforms all aspects of our
lives.
I'm a scientist. As a scientist I'm expected to be a professional
skeptic. I get paid to eat, sleep, and breathe what is rational,
observable and scientifically provable. One day I had less than 3/4
mobility of my right arm. The next day, I had a full range of
motion in my arm. That is proof to me that a healing occurred in my
body.
"Can one walk upon hot coals and his feet not be burned?" -- Proverbs
6:27
"With God, all things are possible." -- Matthew 19:26
His site is available at URL: http://www.firewalking99.com/index.htm
--
-Lani
"Stone and Sea!
Permanence at rest,
And Permanence in motion.
Fellow participants in the Power that remains."
Andross
> Clearly, we don't think the same way. I believe in implied consent. I
> believe that if a man claims to have faith in Science and be a poor man's
> Amazing Randi, and then challenges another to a dare, then his previous
> statement implies a Scientific controlled experiment. And honor would only
> be served if he were to be the Control or Experimental Group, as the case
> may be.
;-> I suspect part of the anoyance those who are heavy on traditional science
has is that in many cases there is not a control method, or such control data
is impossible to collect...
as in the Firewalk, what damn fool is going to race across coals if he does
not have faith?
perhaps someone with absence of fatith in firewalking would go last, after
watching those with faith go unscathed... but then he would have faith that
science would show there to be nothing unusual and that he too would be
unscathed... then if Lani's hypothesis is correct this person too would have
sufficient faith to perform this supernatural act (just pointed at a different
diety)
for this control to theoretically take then this control subject would have to
be completely ignorant of firewalk faith, know that he IS going to be horribly
burned and still walk across the coals? good luck finding your control victim!
;->
just a thought... allthough both the hard headed pure science theory of Lib
and Lani's view of Science as faith/power both annoy me at times this
discussion has been intreguing...
i suspect that such an experiment will never satisfy either party sufficiently
to arrive at a consensus
, ,,, ,, , , ,,;:.. . .. .... . ..
'"~[teknoDragon]#@*+=- /~~~\
tek[technoPagan]nOHpAyGaN -[ -.+ ]-
<alive method="objective" \ ~ /
query="truth">I am</alive> ***
\-->> http://technopagan.dhs.org/ <<--//
-=- -=- - = - - == - - = - -=- -=-
Lani
<Lani hugs Andross, but in a manly way>
Andross wrote:
> although both the hard headed pure science theory of Lib
> and Lani's view of Science as faith/power, both annoy me at times, this
> discussion has been intriguing...
Sort of, sorry to annoy you though.
I believe that Mankind has only two ultimate drives (same as Science/Religion,
Logic/Esthetics, Ethics/Morality, etc.)
The two drives are the Will to Power and the Will to Serve. One is fed by Science,
the other by Religion. Each person has a balance of these two drives in him. The
balance shifts from moment to moment, but a "normal" relationship will establish
itself. This culture is caught up in the Will to Power.
You can see it clearly in two of the posters here. They are actually incapable of
seeing any motive in my religious activities other than to make money. Money=Power
here. When Jesus said that a person can not serve both Science AND Religion, he
knew what he was talking about!
To even posit the possibility that one is driven by a rational desire or Will to
Serve is not, and cannot be a part of their mentation.
I can understand them, but they can't even understand me.
Next year I will spend precious time and several thousands of dollars I don't have
at the moment to be initiated as a leader of Firewalk. Why?
I am not learning how to do the Firewalk for myself. I am not going to do public
Firewalks (although anyone who wants to come to the yearly Makahiki Celebration of
the Huna Heiau where the Firewalk will take place will be made welcome). I have
already walked on fire, and have many new invitations from other Firewalk Leaders
I am in contact with, to come to theirs. So why?
So that others may walk on Fire and be unharmed by the heat. Know the
Fireimmunity. Know the miracle.
I have already benefited by that, I want to give others the chance.
And Huna was born in the heat of the Firewalk, now the fire has been left to go
out for 150 years and I want to return the Fire to Huna. When will that really
become important? About a hundred years or so after I die. And the kahunas I've
trained have died, and the ones that they've trained have died, and the ones that
they've trained still call the goddess Wahine Nui Ho`a Lani to cool the Way for
the Firewalkers.
Or it may die out in my religion once again. But not because I shirked my duty to
my Faith through my fear.
Maybe they can accuse me of that. That the name handed to me in this incarnation
will travel down the Matrix of time for a while. And that of the fine kumu,
Kahuna I Ke Umu Ki, to be, John Shango. Yet we are all nameless immortal
dreamworld creatures, what good will it do us to be remembered? It will accomplish
nothing on that account. You've been born. You know that our memories of our past
lives are stripped from us, and that we don't even remember that we are Io (God)
and immortal.
Perhaps we will all be reborn and worship our old selves! And never know that we
are admiring we-who-are-them.
Yet. There is something to be quietly hoped. Something John Shango and I and all
the Kahunas of the Huna Heiau can legitimately aspire to---that we left this place
a little better than we found it. That we left a scratch on the wall, which we
will forget about long before it might become vitally important to someone.
Still...
> i suspect that such an experiment will never satisfy either party sufficiently
> to arrive at a consensus
>
> , ,,, ,, , , ,,;:.. . .. .... . ..
> '"~[teknoDragon]#@*+=- /~~~\
> tek[technoPagan]nOHpAyGaN -[ -.+ ]-
> <alive method="objective" \ ~ /
> query="truth">I am</alive> ***
> \-->> http://technopagan.dhs.org/ <<--//
> -=- -=- - = - - == - - = - -=- -=-
Andross wrote:
> ;-> I suspect part of the annoyance those who are heavy on traditional science
> has is that in many cases there is not a control method, or such control data
> is impossible to collect...as in the Firewalk, what damn fool is going to race
> across coals if he does
> not have faith?
>
> Perhaps someone with absence of faith in firewalking would go last, after
> watching those with faith go unscathed... but then he would have faith that
> science would show there to be nothing unusual and that he too would be
> unscathed... then if Lani's hypothesis is correct this person too would have
> sufficient faith to perform this supernatural act (just pointed at a different
> deity)
>
> for this control to theoretically take then this control subject would have to
> be completely ignorant of firewalk faith, know that he IS going to be horribly
> burned and still walk across the coals? good luck finding your control victim!
> ;->
Dog gone it! I'm all inspired now, and I'm going to repeat a post I made of a
statement made by one of Huna's gods (Aumakuas) to a Psychology friend of mine.
And a fine Huna Practitioner:
High Self Speaks!
You may feel at times that you have no power to influence the course of events.
You may feel that God has forsaken you, cast you aside, and is ignoring you for
reasons
that you may or may not understand.
This, too, is a dream, just as your ideas of your "powers" were dreams. Yes, you
had powers, as did many others unknown to you. There were moments when your
aspirations were aligned with theirs and wonderful things happened. Now it seems
to you
that nothing you wish for can come true, and you feel powerless and forsaken by
God.
This does not serve you, because you imagine yourself weak and impotent. How
could that be useful to you? Why not imagine yourself powerful and strong,
preparing for
a mighty leap to a new, vaster realm of existence where you can play with others
like
yourself who have made the same leap in faith!
Now is the time to manifest elegance, style and impeccability in everything that
you do, and in everything that you undertake. Now you have the time and energy to
focus
on bringing a new level of order and sanity into your own immediate environment,
your
body, your personal possessions, your living space, and your relationships.
This is the challenge for you at this time.
Now is the time to develop your new vision, the vision that enables you to inspire
a new band of supporters, admirers, players, participants, friends, and lovers to
join you in
a nobler, cleaner, more focused and practical game that will carry each of you
towards the
fulfillment of your vision.
You are not powerless and impotent. You are at the peak of your powers! They
are infinitely more subtle than the powers you have been playing with in the past,
and they
are infinitely more powerful. Use them now on yourself to become acquainted with
them,
and then allow them to expand your awareness of their incredible force and
bringing about
the realization of your vision in the universe!
Continue to look for the positive intention in everything you feel, see, hear, and
experience. You have many gifts which you take for granted. Take nothing for
granted,
else what you have may go away.
Your most valuable resources are your friends, family, and associates. Treat them
well and think well of them. Look for the positive intention in their behavior
and inner
states. honor them, that they may feel good about honoring you. Treat them with
respect,
elegance, style and impeccability.
Continue to expand and clarify your vision. It will change and become more
refined as you change and become more refined. Allow it to do so. Do not get
stuck in
the past, in old values that no longer serve you.
Make this dream the most elegant, gratifying dream you can imagine.Share it with
others, especially those in your life now and from the past, as well as the new
people you
encounter along the way.
Express your vision by word of mouth, in writings such as this, and in other ways
so that others may be inspired and find hope.
Dr. Stanley Russell
February 28, 1987
Lani
Firewalking for over ten years now, as many times a year as he can.
"The door of consciousness we walk through protects us when we firewalk.
That door, I feel, is a moment in one's deepest self.
It's the instant when a person knows that they're one with the universe.
A person knows then that they're invincible. Everyone
experiences this feeling at some point in their life. Everyone I've ever
talked to has had some kind of a feeling at one point that
they're invincible. When a person feels that Oneness, they can use that
feeling for the rest of their lives.
"I usually wait until I get that feeling before I firewalk. I get a
feeling of Oneness with everything. If you're one with something, it
can't harm you because you're one with it. If you're meditating, you can
feel yourself melt down into the couch. You become
one with the couch. It's the same thing with the fire. You become one
with it. It's a door you can walk through. When you feel
one with your surroundings, that's a door. It's not a door you manually
open, it's a feeling of oneness. It's a connectedness with
all things, especially the fire. It's Unity. That's what I love to see
people come to grips with. We can realize our Oneness and then step out
there and trust."
--
John C. Randolph
> Wrong Kevin!
>
> Randy John is making no claim at all.
Lani, about the childish play-on-words you're doing with my name:
considering how close your name is phonetically to "Looney", I really
think I'd drop this tactic if I were in your sandals.
> He's just trying to insult me.
Insulting you by alluding to your self-proclaimed willingness to jump to
your death? Where I come from, that's generally dismissed as mere
overblown rhetoric, but if you *really* intend to try it, then you would
be a good candidate for commitment to a mental institution. (One with
*real* doctors, not fish-waving charlans.)
> And thank you so much for helping John, who is defending Liber8r.
I see it more as playing a game of whack-a-mole whenever you say
something absurd.
Lib doesn't need any defending. He's led you into a reducto ad absurdum
path several times already that I've seen. Come on: Do you really
think that crowing about how you'll try to do yourself in, but only if
he will too, but he's a coward for not wanting to sacrifice himself to
rid the world of one more fish-waving witch-doctor is really making you
look GOOD?
Why don't you just sod off, do your drugs, rob your marks, entertain the
peasants, and quit trying to pretend that you're capable of backing up
any of your fantasies with real evidence? (Just to nip this idea in the
bud: posting pictures of radish sprouts doesn't constitute evidence.)
-jcr
John C. Randolph
Lani wrote:
[snip]
> The two drives are the Will to Power and the Will to Serve. One is fed by Science,
> the other by Religion.
Nah, they're both fed by religion. The desire for power is fed by being
a fish-waver, and the desire to be told what to do is fed by coughing up
your money to a fish-waver. As it happens, they're also both fed by any
other kind of reptilian dominance game, like rockstar/groupie,
Sadist/Masochist, etc.
What science supports is the drive to understand. (Or, stated another
way, the Will to Think.) You can pursue science all by yourself, or in
collaboration with others.
-jcr
Kevin Stewart
Just want some clarity for my dance card. Everyone else is fairly well ID'd
except Dharmadogma.
Thanks!
- the ghoti
John C. Randolph wrote in message <37F5DBEB...@idiom.com>...
>
>
>Lani wrote:
>[snip]
snip, ,jg
>Nah, they're both fed by religion. The desire for power is fed by being
>a fish-waver, and the desire to be told what to do is fed by coughing up
>your money to a fish-waver. As it happens, they're also both fed by any
>other kind of reptilian dominance game, like rockstar/groupie,
>Sadist/Masochist, etc.
snipped III
John C. Randolph
Kevin Stewart wrote:
>
> You're an atheist and Lib's a Deist, right?
I don't know what Lib's beliefs are. As for my own view on metaphysics,
it goes something like this:
1) I take it as given that we do, in fact, exist. (Descartes' argument
is good enough for me on this score.)
2) It seems reasonable to conject that existence implies origin.
3) With the information available to me from my direct personal
experience, I conclude that the nature of the origin is unknowable.
(i.e, whether there is or ever was a personified deity, and whether that
deity, if it exists, cares whether I believe in it or not.)
That's my take on metaphysics. As for religion:
4) I see no evidence to support the proposition that the universe's
origin is a personified deity.
5) Many people are afraid to die, and afraid admit that they don't know
how the universe came to be.
6) Opportunists like the Pope, L. Ron Hubbard, and others I could
mention, unscrupulously exploit this fear to obtain the obedience of the ignorant.
7) The clergy aren't worthy of my obedience.
So, you may classify me as an atheist if you care to, but it seems to me
that atheists also claim to know something which is unknowable.
The way I would put it is, "God is a rather flimsy conjecture."
-jcr
Kevin Stewart
vague.
You don't hold to, shall we say, a "Creative Entity" then, (whether
interested it the creation or not)? More of an Agnostic veiwpoint than
Atheistic?
(Maybe we should have a "Credo" thread, one for each person interested in
stating their veiws -- not subject to "correction" -- and explaining them to
the honestly *curious*. Perhaps something on how/why they're in the ULC.
(All negative, flamewar-ish, self-serving and evangelizing RESPONSES will
have to be ignored, naturally!) Each persons' thread would look like what's
below.
- the ghoti
John C. Randolph wrote in message <37F637F6...@idiom.com>...
snipped
>As for my own view on metaphysics, it goes something like this:
>
>1) I take it as given that we do, in fact, exist. (Descartes' argument
>is good enough for me on this score.)
>
>2) It seems reasonable to conject that existence implies origin.
>
>3) With the information available to me from my direct personal
>experience, I conclude that the nature of the origin is unknowable.
>(i.e, whether there is or ever was a personified deity, and whether that
>deity, if it exists, cares whether I believe in it or not.)
>
>That's my take on metaphysics. As for religion:
>
>4) I see no evidence to support the proposition that the universe's
>origin is a personified deity.
>
>5) Many people are afraid to die, and afraid admit that they don't know
>how the universe came to be.
>
>6) Opportunists like the Pope, L. Ron Hubbard, and others I could
>mention, unscrupulously exploit this fear to obtain the obedience of the
ignorant.
snipped
>7) The clergy aren't worthy of my obedience.
>The way I would put it is, "God is a rather flimsy conjecture."
>
>-jcr
>
Lani
John C. Randolph wrote:
> Kevin Stewart wrote:
> >
> > You're an atheist and Lib's a Deist, right?...
>
> 7) The clergy aren't worthy of my obedience.
>
>
>
> The way I would put it is, "God is a rather flimsy conjecture."
>
> -jcr
And I'd say that randy isn't worth talking to. Except for the entertainment involved.
I think he was having a bad hair day when he wrote that. Isn't it amazing how many
people come into a religious NG who don't like or appreciate religion?
Viscous little wolverines aren't they?
--
John C. Randolph
Kevin Stewart wrote:
> You don't hold to, shall we say, a "Creative Entity" then, (whether
> interested it the creation or not)?
No, because it begs the question.
If you posit that God created the Universe, then the next obvious
question is, of course, "So, what created God?". Chasing down the
creator of the creator becomes an infinite series, with no more
information available no matter how far you want to pursue that line of
conjecture. Also, it does not follow that simply because we are
conscious, that the creation of the universe was itself a conscious act.
The universe exists, and its origin isn't apparent. Physicists get more
and more details about the instants after the big bang every year, and
yet this brings us no closer to knowing anything that may have happened
*before* the big bang. Now, here's my Big Philosopihcal Statement: I
don't *need* to know what happened to cause the big bang.
Not knowing the origin of the universe causes me no emotional distress
whatsoever, so I feel no need to make up a myth and then demand that
anyone else at least pretend to agree with my version of events.
Frankly, I think that evangelism is a profoundly obnoxious activity,
particularly when proselytutes claim that they are morally superior to
those who do not share their delusions.
> More of an Agnostic veiwpoint than Atheistic?
You could even say, I'm a militant agnostic (i.e. "I don't know, and
neither do you!")
-jcr
Lani
> >6) Opportunists like the Pope, L. Ron Hubbard, and others I could
> >mention, unscrupulously exploit this fear to obtain the obedience of the
> ignorant.
>
> >-jcr
> >
Ever wonder that these kinds of people who make claims like this, don't include
themselves amongst the "ignorant"?
Are they really operating on anything else than the fundamentalist who sees
everyone else as inferior?
But I don't want to confuse people, worshippers of Science are no more prone to
arrogance than anyone else. Of course, they do have a less rich life. But that's
to be expected.
Religion is the sole source of the teachings of Morality. Just as Science is the
sole teaching of Ethics.
Morality is the sole source of understanding honor and duty.
An agnostic or atheist has repudiated all honor and concept of duty when he
repudiates religion, and specializes in the order and law brought about by
Science.
Yet in the example I gave of a counseling session. Our young atheist friend here
doesn't invoke Ethics, which would avail him not, as the dad and new step-mom
were acting ethically. But our friend clings instead to duty---morailty i.e.,
religion.
Isn't that strange?
That if it were his situation, he would cling to religious teachings of duty
rather than his ethical/judiciary teachings of Law?
--
John C. Randolph
Lani wrote:
>
> John C. Randolph wrote:
>
> > Kevin Stewart wrote:
> > >
> > > You're an atheist and Lib's a Deist, right?...
> >
> > 7) The clergy aren't worthy of my obedience.
> >
> > The way I would put it is, "God is a rather flimsy conjecture."
> >
> > -jcr
>
> And I'd say that randy isn't worth talking to. Except for the entertainment involved.
Again, who is "randy", Looney?
Actually Lani, I find you rather entertaining. Particularly the way you
insist that you have SOOper SekRIT PsyCHIc PowerZ, and get all huffy
when people refuse to simply believe you without evidence.
> I think he was having a bad hair day when he wrote that.
You'll have the Mother of All Bad Hair Days if you step out of that
airplane without a parachute, O Fishy One.
> Isn't it amazing how many people come into a religious NG who don't like
> or appreciate religion?
This isn't a religious newsgroup, it's a ULC newsgroup. FYI, there are
a plenty of atheists in the ULC.
> Viscous little wolverines aren't they?
Viscous? I don't flow, so how could I possibly be viscous? Do you know
what Viscosity is, or is this another area where your scientific
knowledge is weak?
-jcr
liberator.net
<<But I don't want to confuse people, worshippers of Science are no more
prone to arrogance than anyone else. Of course, they do have a less rich
life. But that's to be expected.>>
A baseless insult. I guess this is how lowly fish-wavers get their rich
life? [chuckle]
<<Religion is the sole source of the teachings of Morality. Just as Science
is the sole teaching of Ethics. Morality is the sole source of
understanding honor and duty.>>
...lopsided dualism... You propose a schism exists and then you plant
morality squarely inside the half you call religion. No wonder why your
belief system is cockeyed. You throw away rationalism in the name of feel
good faith and then remain amazed why your faith is jam-packed full of
meaningless mistruths. It is consistently inconsistent.
<<An agnostic or atheist has repudiated all honor and concept of duty when
he repudiates religion, and specializes in the order and law brought about
by Science.>>
In your non-rational belief system, this is true. However, the concepts of
duty and honor are not seperate from the truth, in which you have no
interest.
What is honor without logic and truth? Lunacy, Lani. :)
Kevin Stewart
O.K. Thanks. Liberator, or any one else "care to share". (Dang, now I
sound like a group therapist!)
- the ghoti
John C. Randolph wrote in message <37F65E61...@idiom.com>...
>
>
>Kevin Stewart wrote:
>
>
>> You don't hold to, shall we say, a "Creative Entity" then, (whether
>> interested it the creation or not)?
>
>No, because it begs the question.
snipped
liberator.net
<<And I'd say that randy isn't worth talking to.>>
For a person who hides from the truth, this would be consistent.
<<Except for the entertainment involved.>>
Oh...that is bi-directional; I'm sure. :)
<<I think he was having a bad hair day when he wrote that. Isn't it amazing
how many people come into a religious NG who don't like or appreciate
religion?>>
When religion is inaccurately made to reflect only a small subset of its
full potential, it sure is irritating to watch the disservice it does.
Lani, you could be the posterchild of this less than dutiful art. Promoting
the lack of brain-usage, if it wasn't so damn stupid, should be a crime.
<<Viscous little wolverines aren't they?>>
It's 'vicious' you imbecile. :) ...rotflol... Do you know how to use the
spellchecker on your computer? Thank science the next time you use it.
Lani, you're too funny.
liberator.net
John C. Randolph <j...@idiom.com> wrote in message
news:37F6674A...@idiom.com...
<<Actually Lani, I find you rather entertaining. Particularly the way you
insist that you have SOOper SekRIT PsyCHIc PowerZ, and get all huffy when
people refuse to simply believe you without evidence.>>
What? You're not convinced by the LANDSLIDE of evidence from his radish
seed posts? :)
<<You'll have the Mother of All Bad Hair Days if you step out of that
airplane without a parachute, O Fishy One.>>
If you keep bringing "up" science, you're going to confuse him again.
<<Viscous? I don't flow, so how could I possibly be viscous? Do you know
what Viscosity is, or is this another area where your scientific knowledge
is weak? >>
Uhhh... blood is thicker than water?
How can the fluidity of water be compared to wolverines?
Lani couldn't be this hilarious if he actually tried. :) He's making his
Kahuna fishwavers out to be a true laughing stock.
Kevin Stewart
+ + +
Lani wrote in message <37F6600B...@earthlink.net>...
Snipped
>Yet in the example I gave of a counseling session. Our young atheist friend
here
>doesn't invoke Ethics, which would avail him not, as the dad and new
step-mom
>were acting ethically.
As you see it!!!
>But our friend clings instead to duty---morailty i.e., religion.
>
>Isn't that strange?
snipped
Some one asked one of Gandhi's assistants about Gandhi's having an answer
for everything he did -- and being consistent over time with his actions &
his (seemingly glib) answers/explainations.
The assistants' reply was to the effect of, "Of course. Gandhi [knows &]
lives his beliefs!" The same may have been said of Jesus, etc., of course.
Not many do live their values.
But it is not strange when one responds in line with them. Revealing,
perhaps, but not strange.
- the ghoti
liberator.net
Kevin Stewart <ke...@jacksonmi.com> wrote in message
news:rvcu6s...@corp.supernews.com...
<<Liberator, or any one else "care to share".>>
Sure! Thanks for asking... Since Lani wrongly assumes that the scientific
method is "in bed with money," here's my three cents worth:
.01:
No matter which faith axioms you create or accept, sooner or later you're
going to reach a dead end, which is true scientifically too.
Buddhists have an interesting theory. The universe was always in existence.
It exists within an endless series of explosions and crunches. Who knows,
maybe the physical laws change after every explosion... It sure does end
the debate, "What came before the Big Bang" except to say "The Gnab Gib."
.02:
Deciding how we choose our faith axioms is an important one. Should we base
our worldview on the unpredictable nature of "heart" or should we
robotically rationalize instances down to logical certainty? I think that
the more we learn, read, experience and grow the more we come to some grips
on this and realize that they are NOT separate entities.
We have to take the experiential world for what it is. If there's anything
else, it is beyond experience and doesn't do anyone any good, except for
entertainment purposes. To ignore our own ability to solve our own problems
using brainpower, is to throw away THE most useful tool we have at our
disposal.
We can throw up our hands to life and pretend to be helpless victims but we
know/feel that this isn't really the case. We are able to make a difference
and are able to make important decisions in life based upon our abilities,
the knowledge given to us by our forefathers, and the freedom to make
headway into the relative certainty life offers us.
Personal empowerment is the God I worship. This God has been good to us
because this God allows us to help ourselves.
Isn't there a Biblical passage that goes something like "God helps those who
help themselves?"
The scientist accepts the fact that he does not know everything, but he has
the courage and ability to build on the set of discovery for the greater,
dynamic "good."
.03:
Either we use the path of science to help us understand the Universe or we
blindly accept any ridiculous theory that comes along and rap ourselves up
into a ball of self-deception. I cannot see the benefit to such a
worldview. It's like the proverbial ostrich sticking his head in the sand
every time a problem comes along. Yet, we know that once we place ourselves
in such a vulnerable position, other less scrupulous people in our society
would be happy to give us a kick to the posterior.
John C. Randolph
Lani wrote:
>
> > >6) Opportunists like the Pope, L. Ron Hubbard, and others I could
> > >mention, unscrupulously exploit this fear to obtain the obedience of the
> > ignorant.
> >
> > >-jcr
>
> Ever wonder that these kinds of people who make claims like this, don't include
> themselves amongst the "ignorant"?
>
> Are they really operating on anything else than the fundamentalist who sees
> everyone else as inferior?
Don't assume that because I consider *you* inferior, that I consider
anyone else inferior. When I first encounter a person, I assume that he
or she is my equal. I maintain that assumption until they do something
either to elevate themselves (like demonstrate a talent that I know I
don't posess) or to denigrate themselves in my esteem (like repeatedly
making irrational claims, and then getting all upset when people ask for proof.)
> But I don't want to confuse people, worshippers of Science are no more prone to
> arrogance than anyone else. Of course, they do have a less rich life. But that's
> to be expected.
First of all, "Worshipper of Science" is an oxymoron. Secondly, Who are
you to judge how rich anyone else's experience is? A rainbow is no less
beautiful to someone who understands the refraction of light, than it is
to those who have no clue why rainbows appear.
> Religion is the sole source of the teachings of Morality. Just as Science is the
> sole teaching of Ethics.
Proclaim away, but that won't make it true. There are any number of
non-religious moralists.
> Morality is the sole source of understanding honor and duty.
No, morality isn't a "source of understanding." Rational inquiry is a
source of understanding. Morality is the set of principles by which one
chooses how to behave.
> An agnostic or atheist has repudiated all honor and concept of duty when he
> repudiates religion, and specializes in the order and law brought about by
> Science.
More nonsense. My honor does not require that I believe in a deity to
punish me if I cheat someone. As it happens, I am more inclined to
trust someone whose ethos is based on his own rational judgement, then
one who depends on mythology to tell him what to do.
> Yet in the example I gave of a counseling session. Our young atheist friend here
> doesn't invoke Ethics, which would avail him not, as the dad and new step-mom
> were acting ethically.
Ethically, my ass: You don't fuck your fiance's father. You don't fuck
your son's fiance. Doing so is a betrayal of trust, and it's a shitty
thing to do. This is Real Life, not a Robert Heinlein novel. That
woman is a slut, and the old man is a scumbag. Now you can tsk-tsk all
you want about the kid getting violent, but he sure as hell was
provoked.
>But our friend clings instead to duty---morailty i.e., religion.
>
> Isn't that strange?
Are you a political spin-doctor on the side?
> That if it were his situation, he would cling to religious teachings of duty
> rather than his ethical/judiciary teachings of Law?
The fact that religious teachings may coincide with my own code of
morality on certain points is irrelevant. The christian scriptures (for
example) say "Don't commit adultery." I happen to think that adultery
is a rotten thing to do, not because it's breaking a commandment, but
because I expect a person to honor their promises.
-jcr
Kevin Stewart
"Militant Agnostics" as well as atheists, it is a valid membership.
This is not just a "religious" NG. It is * T H E* ULC's > ONLY < NG.
His is a valid presence.
+ + +
Lani wrote in message <37F65697...@earthlink.net>...
>John C. Randolph wrote:
snipped
>> 7) The clergy aren't worthy of my obedience.
Now this is interesting! Why did you retain this line, Lani? Strong
disagreement, perhaps?
>> The way I would put it is, "God is a rather flimsy conjecture."
>>
>> -jcr
>
>And I'd say that randy isn't worth talking to. Except for the entertainment
involved.
>
>I think he was having a bad hair day when he wrote that. Isn't it amazing
how many
>people come into a religious NG who don't like or appreciate religion?
>
>Viscous little wolverines aren't they?
Living in the "Wolverine State" as I do, I don't know a thing about them!
(Michigan is devoid of the quadriped kind. And the U. kind? Well, let's
not go there!)
As for "Randy", I'm surprised he hasn't started calling himself "The Really
Amazing Randy", or just "trar". Insults often become 'icons, (ie, Brits
calling New Amsterdam/York-ers: "Jan Cheese" pronounced "Yan Keys" =
Yankees.)
- the ghoti
Kevin Stewart
connotations attached.)
- the ghoti
liberator.net wrote in message <7t60sv$adl$1...@Nntp1.mcs.net>...
Lani
John C. Randolph wrote:
> The fact that religious teachings may coincide with my own code of
> morality on certain points is irrelevant. The christian scriptures (for
> example) say "Don't commit adultery." I happen to think that adultery
> is a rotten thing to do, not because it's breaking a commandment, but
> because I expect a person to honor their promises.
>
> -jcr
Thank you for sharing.
--
Rev. David Owen Plunkett, C.M.F.
Thats one of the most intellegent things to come from a pile of shit in
a long time, you are are a sarcastic and bitter fool.
--
><> For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to
the pulling down of strongholds. II Cor. 10 : 4 (K.J.V.) <><
><> THE MIGHTY POWER OF GOD<><
" About three in the morning, as we were continuing instant in prayer, the
power of God came mightily upon us , insomuch that many cried out for
exceeding joy, and many fell to the ground." - John Wesley
The Rev. David Owen Plunkett, Ph.D, C.M.F.
The Missionary Church of Ilion N.Y. at the U.L.M., Inc.
21 Frederick St.
Ilion, N.Y. 13357-2507
Pastor's Study: (315) 894-9370
Rev...@clergy.net
http://members.tripod.com/RevDavecmf
http://Bro%2E+Plunkett.ecode.com
Lani <kahun...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:37F6A11D...@earthlink.net...
>
>
> John C. Randolph wrote:
>
> > The fact that religious teachings may coincide with my own code of
> > morality on certain points is irrelevant. The christian scriptures (for
> > example) say "Don't commit adultery." I happen to think that adultery
> > is a rotten thing to do, not because it's breaking a commandment, but
> > because I expect a person to honor their promises.
> >
> > -jcr
>
> Thank you for sharing.
>
> --
Rev. David Owen Plunkett, C.M.F.
You are rude and obnoxious.
Bro.Plunkett
Kevin Stewart <ke...@jacksonmi.com> wrote in message
news:rvd2gu...@corp.supernews.com...
John C. Randolph
"Rev. David Owen Plunkett, C.M.F." wrote:
> jcr,
> You are rude and obnoxious.
Dave,
I do not seek your approval.
-jcr
Kevin Stewart
"God fucking dam y'all to hell, you judgemental, condescending Jew lawyers!
[Literal use] Leave the harlot bitch alone!"
You're not following any biblical example I can think of, except Balaam's
"friend"!
And completely carnal-free spiritual, too!
- the ghoti
Rev. David Owen Plunkett, C.M.F. wrote in message ...
Kevin Stewart
John C. Randolph wrote in message <37F716E0...@idiom.com>...
John,
GASP!!!!! (How about the "other" Dogmatic Offensive Pissant, Compulsive
M.F.?)
- the ghoti
snipped
John C. Randolph
Which other one do you mean?
-jcr
Lani
John C. Randolph wrote:
> "Rev. David Owen Plunkett, C.M.F." wrote:
>
> > jcr,
> > You are rude and obnoxious.
>
> Dave,
>
> I do not seek your approval.
>
> -jcr
That's convenient for you.
I mean, since you don't have it and all.
And you don't have mine either. Isn't that interesting? You've actually
managed to debase a relationship with both a Christian and a pagan. Yes
you are certainly an active boy.
John C. Randolph
Lani wrote:
>
> John C. Randolph wrote:
>
> > "Rev. David Owen Plunkett, C.M.F." wrote:
> >
> > > jcr,
> > > You are rude and obnoxious.
> >
> > Dave,
> >
> > I do not seek your approval.
> >
> > -jcr
>
> That's convenient for you.
>
> I mean, since you don't have it and all.
>
> And you don't have mine either.
And your point would be...?
>Isn't that interesting? You've actually
> managed to debase a relationship with both a Christian and a pagan.
I must have missed a subtlety here. Is there some substantive
difference between Christians and Pagans? As far as I'm concerned,
you're just followers of different superstition franchises.
>Yes you are certainly an active boy.
Lots of people have hobbies. Playing whack-a-mole with bible thumpers
and other deluded people is one of mine.
-jcr
Kevin Stewart
You know!! The one that referred to Miltong as a "Hasidic Fuck", referred to
the females of the ULC as cheap, (to be liberal about it), decided I was a
ononist[sp] and basicly went rabid back on Labor Day.
THIS(like there really is 2 DOPs), Cmf came back with a claim of innocence
and tried to prove it wasn't him by saying the evil twin didn't use his
"signature" (the carnal minded verse & Wesley reference). The rampager
didn't use it -- 1/2 the time!
You know the one I mean! The unchristian DOP!
- the ghoti
PS Please send me your response to Lani's "Busy boy" bit. (About you
debasing your relationshop with a "christian" & a pagan) As soon as I
clicked on it, it cancelled out! Must really be vitrolic!!! 8~3 )
John C. Randolph wrote in message <37F7924F...@idiom.com>...
.BAED...@idiom.com>...
snipped
Kevin Stewart
This is REALLY off-mark!
I am glad you truly hold that all are Io! Isn't it fun to debase people --
and thus your god -- with derogatory comments on manhood, criminality and
an insult to their name.
I'm sure you're really impressing folks with Huna. Showing it to be both
new thought & old christianity. And now we all know how a ULC minister
differs from a fervent, foam-flinging fundie!!
Thanks, teach!
- the ghoti
OOooppppppsss I forgot! Lib & jcr are the galactic forces of evil!! They
must be driven out. They're Nazis after all! Cowards, Robber barons.
Nazis.
And have their own veiws!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That says it A L L !!!
God, I love stimulating, non-nudgemental, respective dialogues! Especially
on Religious NGs! Remember lurkers! Lani is protecting you from Beelzebub &
Mephestopheles! [sic -- absolutely!] lest you come to think they may have
any validity!
I haven't seen such shit since WWEEEELLLLLL before my pentacostal days!
+ + + + +
Lani wrote in message <37F7AB3C...@earthlink.net>...
>That's convenient for you.
>
>I mean, since you don't have it and all.
>
>And you don't have mine either. Isn't that interesting? You've actually
>managed to debase a relationship with both a Christian and a pagan.
And all by hisself two! Lani has nuttin to do wif dwiving owt da ol
wegularz oar nuttin. [& the ghoti says AAAAACCCCCCKKKKK before keeling
over.]
Yes
>you are certainly an active boy.
Lani
Kevin Stewart wrote:
Gee, did I say something that displeased you?
John C. Randolph
Kevin Stewart wrote:
>
> snipped
>
> You know!! The one that referred to Miltong as a "Hasidic Fuck", referred to
> the females of the ULC as cheap, (to be liberal about it), decided I was a
> ononist[sp] and basicly went rabid back on Labor Day.
I think I missed that guy, since I don't follow all the threads in this
newsgroup. He sounds like a real sweatheart.
> PS Please send me your response to Lani's "Busy boy" bit. (About you
> debasing your relationshop with a "christian" & a pagan) As soon as I
> clicked on it, it cancelled out! Must really be vitrolic!!! 8~3 )
Sure thing (with some blank lines snipped):
Lani wrote:
>
> John C. Randolph wrote:
>
> > "Rev. David Owen Plunkett, C.M.F." wrote:
> > > jcr,
> > > You are rude and obnoxious.
> > Dave,
> > I do not seek your approval.
> >
> That's convenient for you.
>
> I mean, since you don't have it and all.
> And you don't have mine either.
And your point would be...?
>Isn't that interesting? You've actually
> managed to debase a relationship with both a Christian and a pagan.
I must have missed a subtlety here. Is there some substantive
difference between Christians and Pagans? As far as I'm concerned,
you're just followers of different superstition franchises.
>Yes you are certainly an active boy.
Lots of people have hobbies. Playing whack-a-mole with bible thumpers
Lani
Kevin Stewart wrote:
> Why no, not at all! Why do you ask?
Oh. Well good then.
John C. Randolph
"Rev. David Owen Plunkett, C.M.F." wrote:
>
> Calling a lying troll a lying troll is one of mine.
Good for you, sunshine. I'm sure you'll let us know when you see
someone lying or trolling.
-jcr
Rev. David Owen Plunkett, C.M.F.
You are one screwed up mess, I suggest you get some help.
Bro. Plunkett
--
><> For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to
the pulling down of strongholds. II Cor. 10 : 4 (K.J.V.) <><
><> THE MIGHTY POWER OF GOD<><
" About three in the morning, as we were continuing instant in prayer, the
power of God came mightily upon us , insomuch that many cried out for
exceeding joy, and many fell to the ground." - John Wesley
The Rev. David Owen Plunkett, Ph.D, C.M.F.
The Missionary Church of Ilion N.Y. at the U.L.M., Inc.
21 Frederick St.
Ilion, N.Y. 13357-2507
Pastor's Study: (315) 894-9370
Rev...@clergy.net
http://members.tripod.com/RevDavecmf
http://Bro%2E+Plunkett.ecode.com
Kevin Stewart <ke...@jacksonmi.com> wrote in message
news:rveo8k...@corp.supernews.com...
Rev. David Owen Plunkett, C.M.F.
screwed up the signature again too many spaces.
Bro. Plunkett
Rev. David Owen Plunkett, C.M.F. <cplu...@TWCNY.RR.COM> wrote in message
news:zwDJ3.5068$56.1...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
> jcr,
> Thats one of the most intellegent things to come from a pile of shit
in
> a long time, you are are a sarcastic and bitter fool.
> --
> ><> For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God
to
> the pulling down of strongholds. II Cor. 10 : 4 (K.J.V.) <><
> ><> THE MIGHTY POWER OF GOD<><
> " About three in the morning, as we were continuing instant in prayer, the
> power of God came mightily upon us , insomuch that many cried out for
> exceeding joy, and many fell to the ground." - John Wesley
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The Rev. David Owen Plunkett, Ph.D, C.M.F.
> The Missionary Church of Ilion N.Y. at the U.L.M., Inc.
> 21 Frederick St.
> Ilion, N.Y. 13357-2507
> Pastor's Study: (315) 894-9370
> Rev...@clergy.net
>
> http://members.tripod.com/RevDavecmf
>
> http://Bro%2E+Plunkett.ecode.com
>
>
>
>
> Lani <kahun...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:37F6A11D...@earthlink.net...
> >
> >
> > John C. Randolph wrote:
> >
> > > The fact that religious teachings may coincide with my own code of
> > > morality on certain points is irrelevant. The christian scriptures
(for
> > > example) say "Don't commit adultery." I happen to think that adultery
> > > is a rotten thing to do, not because it's breaking a commandment, but
> > > because I expect a person to honor their promises.
> > >
> > > -jcr
> >
> > Thank you for sharing.
> >
> > --
Rev. David Owen Plunkett, C.M.F.
Another mess, get some help my friend, those voices in your head getting
louder.
Bro. Plunkett
--
><> For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to
the pulling down of strongholds. II Cor. 10 : 4 (K.J.V.) <><
><> THE MIGHTY POWER OF GOD<><
" About three in the morning, as we were continuing instant in prayer, the
power of God came mightily upon us , insomuch that many cried out for
exceeding joy, and many fell to the ground." - John Wesley
The Rev. David Owen Plunkett, Ph.D, C.M.F.
The Missionary Church of Ilion N.Y. at the U.L.M., Inc.
21 Frederick St.
Ilion, N.Y. 13357-2507
Pastor's Study: (315) 894-9370
Rev...@clergy.net
http://members.tripod.com/RevDavecmf
http://Bro%2E+Plunkett.ecode.com
Rev. David Owen Plunkett, C.M.F. <cplu...@TWCNY.RR.COM> wrote in message
news:6BDJ3.5069$56.1...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
> jcr,
> You are rude and obnoxious.
> Bro.Plunkett
>
>
>
>
> Kevin Stewart <ke...@jacksonmi.com> wrote in message
> news:rvd2gu...@corp.supernews.com...
> > He is, as for as I know in the ULC (& a Minister(?)). Since the ULC
> ordains
> > "Militant Agnostics" as well as atheists, it is a valid membership.
> >
> > This is not just a "religious" NG. It is * T H E* ULC's > ONLY <
> NG.
> >
> > His is a valid presence.
> >
> > + + +
> >
Rev. David Owen Plunkett, C.M.F.
Bro. Plunkett
--
><> For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to
the pulling down of strongholds. II Cor. 10 : 4 (K.J.V.) <><
><> THE MIGHTY POWER OF GOD<><
" About three in the morning, as we were continuing instant in prayer, the
power of God came mightily upon us , insomuch that many cried out for
exceeding joy, and many fell to the ground." - John Wesley
The Rev. David Owen Plunkett, Ph.D, C.M.F.
The Missionary Church of Ilion N.Y. at the U.L.M., Inc.
21 Frederick St.
Ilion, N.Y. 13357-2507
Pastor's Study: (315) 894-9370
Rev...@clergy.net
http://members.tripod.com/RevDavecmf
http://Bro%2E+Plunkett.ecode.com
John C. Randolph <j...@idiom.com> wrote in message
news:37F716E0...@idiom.com...
>
>
> "Rev. David Owen Plunkett, C.M.F." wrote:
>
> > jcr,
> > You are rude and obnoxious.
>
> Dave,
>
> I do not seek your approval.
>
> -jcr
Rev. David Owen Plunkett, C.M.F.
> Why does he need any?
>
> This is REALLY off-mark!
>
> I am glad you truly hold that all are Io! Isn't it fun to debase
people --
> and thus your god -- with derogatory comments on manhood, criminality and
> an insult to their name.
>
> I'm sure you're really impressing folks with Huna. Showing it to be both
> new thought & old christianity. And now we all know how a ULC minister
> differs from a fervent, foam-flinging fundie!!
>
> Thanks, teach!
>
> - the ghoti
>
> OOooppppppsss I forgot! Lib & jcr are the galactic forces of evil!! They
> must be driven out. They're Nazis after all! Cowards, Robber barons.
> Nazis.
>
> And have their own veiws!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That says it A L L !!!
>
> God, I love stimulating, non-nudgemental, respective dialogues!
Especially
> on Religious NGs! Remember lurkers! Lani is protecting you from Beelzebub
&
> Mephestopheles! [sic -- absolutely!] lest you come to think they may have
> any validity!
>
> I haven't seen such shit since WWEEEELLLLLL before my pentacostal days!
--
><> For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to
the pulling down of strongholds. II Cor. 10 : 4 (K.J.V.) <><
><> THE MIGHTY POWER OF GOD<><
" About three in the morning, as we were continuing instant in prayer, the
power of God came mightily upon us , insomuch that many cried out for
exceeding joy, and many fell to the ground." - John Wesley
The Rev. David Owen Plunkett, Ph.D, C.M.F.
The Missionary Church of Ilion N.Y. at the U.L.M., Inc.
21 Frederick St.
Ilion, N.Y. 13357-2507
Pastor's Study: (315) 894-9370
Rev...@clergy.net
http://members.tripod.com/RevDavecmf
http://Bro%2E+Plunkett.ecode.com
> Lani wrote in message <37F7AB3C...@earthlink.net>...
>
> >That's convenient for you.
> >
> >I mean, since you don't have it and all.
> >
> >And you don't have mine either. Isn't that interesting? You've actually
> >managed to debase a relationship with both a Christian and a pagan.
>
> And all by hisself two! Lani has nuttin to do wif dwiving owt da ol
> wegularz oar nuttin. [& the ghoti says AAAAACCCCCCKKKKK before keeling
> over.]
>
> Yes
> >you are certainly an active boy.
Rev. David Owen Plunkett, C.M.F.
jcr,
What's the matter someone drop a house on your sister?
Bro Plunkett
--
><> For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to
the pulling down of strongholds. II Cor. 10 : 4 (K.J.V.) <><
><> THE MIGHTY POWER OF GOD<><
" About three in the morning, as we were continuing instant in prayer, the
power of God came mightily upon us , insomuch that many cried out for
exceeding joy, and many fell to the ground." - John Wesley
The Rev. David Owen Plunkett, Ph.D, C.M.F.
The Missionary Church of Ilion N.Y. at the U.L.M., Inc.
21 Frederick St.
Ilion, N.Y. 13357-2507
Pastor's Study: (315) 894-9370
Rev...@clergy.net
http://members.tripod.com/RevDavecmf
http://Bro%2E+Plunkett.ecode.com
Kevin Stewart <ke...@jacksonmi.com> wrote in message
news:rvfvip...@corp.supernews.com...
> snipped
>
> You know!! The one that referred to Miltong as a "Hasidic Fuck", referred
to
> the females of the ULC as cheap, (to be liberal about it), decided I was a
> ononist[sp] and basicly went rabid back on Labor Day.
>
> THIS(like there really is 2 DOPs), Cmf came back with a claim of innocence
> and tried to prove it wasn't him by saying the evil twin didn't use his
> "signature" (the carnal minded verse & Wesley reference). The rampager
> didn't use it -- 1/2 the time!
>
> You know the one I mean! The unchristian DOP!
>
> - the ghoti
>
> PS Please send me your response to Lani's "Busy boy" bit. (About you
> debasing your relationshop with a "christian" & a pagan) As soon as I
> clicked on it, it cancelled out! Must really be vitrolic!!! 8~3 )
>
>
Rev. David Owen Plunkett, C.M.F.
Calling a lying troll a lying troll is one of mine.
><> For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to
the pulling down of strongholds. II Cor. 10 : 4 (K.J.V.) <><
><> THE MIGHTY POWER OF GOD<><
" About three in the morning, as we were continuing instant in prayer, the
power of God came mightily upon us , insomuch that many cried out for
exceeding joy, and many fell to the ground." - John Wesley
The Rev. David Owen Plunkett, Ph.D, C.M.F.
The Missionary Church of Ilion N.Y. at the U.L.M., Inc.
21 Frederick St.
Ilion, N.Y. 13357-2507
Pastor's Study: (315) 894-9370
Rev...@clergy.net
http://members.tripod.com/RevDavecmf
http://Bro%2E+Plunkett.ecode.com
John C. Randolph <j...@idiom.com> wrote in message
news:37F7E1B7...@idiom.com...
>
>
> Lani wrote:
> >
> > John C. Randolph wrote:
> >
> > > "Rev. David Owen Plunkett, C.M.F." wrote:
> > >
> > > > jcr,
> > > > You are rude and obnoxious.
> > >
> > > Dave,
> > >
> > > I do not seek your approval.
> > >
> > > -jcr
> >
> > That's convenient for you.
> >
> > I mean, since you don't have it and all.
> >
> > And you don't have mine either.
>
> And your point would be...?
>
> >Isn't that interesting? You've actually
> > managed to debase a relationship with both a Christian and a pagan.
>
> I must have missed a subtlety here. Is there some substantive
> difference between Christians and Pagans? As far as I'm concerned,
> you're just followers of different superstition franchises.
>
> >Yes you are certainly an active boy.
>
Kevin Stewart
Disappoint is another matter.
I have never known any true "warrior" that stoop so low as to equate battle
with bullshit or words with weapons -- until recently.
I have never seen the beginnings of a cult -- until recently.
In the short time I have been on, I have never seen such snide, arrogant,
condemnations done on a NG -- except religious ones & especially this one!
BTW, is this a new Lib or the one you were going to 'killfile'/ignore?
piece!.
- the ghoti, rigged for "silent running"
Lani wrote in message <37F8066C...@earthlink.net>...
snipped
>Gee, did I say something that displeased you?
>
John C. Randolph
Kevin Stewart wrote:
>
> I have never seen the beginnings of a cult -- until recently.
You've seen the beginnnings of a cult? Do tell!
-jcr
John C. Randolph
"Rev. David Owen Plunkett, C.M.F." wrote:
[regarding my disinterest in his approval]
> I never offered it.
No, you stated your disapproval. I then spontaneously advised you of
just how much I value your opinion.
As for you description of me as obnoxios, Iam proud to be the kind of
person that a fundie bible-thumper dislikes.
Now, don't you have to go condemn someone to hell? Are you keeping up
your quota for sanctimonious posturing?
-jcr
John C. Randolph
"Rev. David Owen Plunkett, C.M.F." wrote:
>
> jcr,
> Another mess, get some help my friend, those voices in your head getting
> louder.
Voices in my head? You seem to have me confused with someone else.
I've never claimed that god talked to me.
-jcr
Lani
An ordained Kahuna and others are lodged within a matrix in time.
Although this
concept is vacant in our civilization, it is otherwise universal in
every other culture. This
has to do with the idea of initiation and lineages and the purpose of
the Created World.
It has also led to another source of arrogance to be overcome by some.
In American Indian culture, a person can sometimes be identified as a
“significant
person”. In this two problems can assert themselves. First it might make
the person so
identified, arrogant, which in turn will denude them of all real
significance. And secondly it
may place the burden of jealousy on those not so identified. It might
make them seem in
some sort of competition, or make it something to be aspired to, or to
withdraw from.
None of these things are correct.
Considering the universality of this designation, I’ve been thinking
about why it isn’t
known or properly understood in our culture. And this is what I think at
this time. I think
that it comes from our drive for independence and “making a name for
ourselves”.
But let’s go back to the nature and character of The Created World for a
moment. All
life eventually (at this time) looks to evolve into humanity. Once this
is achieved, there are
numerous generations of being “reborn” as humans. Each time, the person
becomes a little
wiser, a little more open to a greater world, until there comes the last
few lifetimes here.
After that the person “Graduates” is returned in union with its shriven
other half—our
Soul’s Mate, and becomes an Aumakua (Guardian Angel), and ceases
rebirth.
In Polynesia, these people, the ones on their last set of incarnations
are called “Kanaka
Makua”. These few people tend to be the real heads of extended
households. All their
relatives turn to them for help and counseling and wisdom. Here we see
that the correct
relationship is not so easy to sully. It is hard to aspire to be a
Kanaka Makua, as it is hard
to imagine ourselves trying to become more wise than we are. Although
such striving in
ourselves can only be beneficial. No jealousy can be imagined, nor any
other kind of
irrational feelings—so long as the person is really a Kanaka Makua who
can be counted
upon. In ancient Polynesia, every family group was led by such a
“significant person”.
This is just one style or type or we might think of as a function of the
Kanaka Makua.
A “significant person” or Kanaka Makua is also found as a Kumu. A Kumu
is one who is a
lineage holder of some form of huna or secret or secrets. One thing the
Kumu does, is to
pass on his understandings or mana (authority or ability to do something
unusual, or
unusually well) to others.
The passing on is called an Initiation, and the ones who “devour” this
wisdom are
called, “those who devour supernatural authority” or mana eaters, or
haumana—students.
Anyone who can do anything in a superior way, or do something at all
unique or very
important or different, has either been initiated into its mysteries by
someone else or
figured out how to do it himself. If the latter, then he becomes the
first Kumu of his line.
Creat4sd the lineage himself. If he doesn’t pass the wisdom on, then he
simply isn’t a
Kumu.
In Polynesia, Kumu’s are almost worshipped, they are held in such
respect.
Back to the Created World. When we first start our human incarnations,
it is very hard
to learn how to be a human being. Our animal existence is so close to
our memory. While
we don’t remember the actual incidents, the instincts remain and
frequently drive us,
without our even knowing it.
As we progress down our lifetimes, we move farther and farther away from
these
compelling experiences, and they have less and less effect on us. During
these two stages
of our existence it is about all we can do, or anyone can expect of us,
that we do about as
best we may.
It is here that we need to have our Kumus and Kanaka Makua to feed us.
That these
people exist makes life possible, or depending on the circumstances,
half way decent.
An example can be madre from our emotionasl existance. As we are
becoming
humans, and are mostly driven by instinct, we rut in the field. Sex
become our emotional
world. This is natural, and we must come to terms with it.
Those people who know only sex as a drive are exactely where they should
be and
need to be. It can help to speed them, if they knew something else
ezxisted, but even
without that they would eventually reach a higher plane. From the first
few incarnations
where sex is seen as the ultimete, over lifetimes, we movese inevetably
from the totally
physical and add to that our ever increasing mentality. In other words
we move to love
and add that to sex. In our culkture, this is the known edge of reality,
but that is only
because we have strayed far from the natural path of evolution. This
adventure into
Science and an Ethics driven culture as opposed to a religious, Morality
driven culture has
had its good aspects. The elimination of Smallpox will remain with us
(as well as the
FEDS development and deployement of AIDS. The making of VCRs, etc.) But
of course,
love itself is only a mentasl thing, and not very powerful, the person
who knows that there
is a further development, taht is as far and different from love as love
is to sex, will make a
more speedy and sure progress. But regardless of the speed, the person
will eventually
develop in his Heart—Aloha. Compassion. The feeling that Io, the
identification of the
God of Creation, has himself for his creation: acceptance of things as
they are,
compassion, nurtureance.
But until that time; we need. We have to be served. We have to consume
other’s
wisdom, or not have very much at all. To be a kanaka makua is nothing to
be sought for,
it is almost impossible to do. And once possible, it is something that
can not be done. Nor
is it anything to be jealous of, they exist to be consumed (haumana).
For the Kanaka
Makua, becoming a Kumu in some fashion is inevitable and impossible to
stop. It isn’t
something one aspires to, it is just inescapable, and requires
everything the person can do
to maintain it in good order.
And worse, at some levels, to be a Kumu is to be constantly watched and
judged. Not
by some external consciousness, but by our harshest critic—ourselves.
A Kumu is located within a matrix of time. There was a time when he or
she was a
little boy or girl and was initiated. He or she must have respect for
his initiator. But it is
the responsibility for his Initiator or Kumu to be worthy of respect.
This means that the Kumu mustn’t “make a name for himself”, but that be
perpetuates,
even aggrandizes the name he bears, as his haumana partakes in that
name.
So he is caught or located within a matrix in time. For he too partook
of his Kumu’s
reputation and “name”, as did the Kumu before him, back to the beginning
of that line.
His haumana will, or at least some of them will, become Kumus in turn.
And their
responsibility lies heavy upon them. They must uphold their lineage.
For, “who are they?”, who comes to them for the first time, except for
their
reputation. And who will stay unless they are well served?
So the haumana too becomes a “significant person” if he becomes a Kuku,
for into his
or her hands lies the maintaince of that wisdom or huna (the secret to
do something).
The same is true for the Firewalk leaders. They have two kinds of people
come to
them. Those who merely want or need to walk on Fire, and those whom, for
whatever
purpose, wants to learn how to lead them himself. Two very different
needs.
So it is a very important duty for the Kumu to both offer the effects of
his huna to
anyone who needs it, but also to pass it on to selected haumana through
initiation so that it
becomes a salve for all those who come after him. In this, he is locked
into the lineage he
received. If he does well, then it reflects back unto his lineage, if he
does poorly, his
lineage itself suffers. And of course, his lineage reflects upon him
too.
So to be a “significant person”, a Kanaka Makua is to be nearly at the
end of the Path
of human evolution. Then one begins to hear the sounds of the needless
suffering and fear
from those who follow him. He turns around and his Heart is broken
painfully open by
Aloha (Compassion).
Aloha is a necessary development to Graduate. As well as Koa (Courage),
Malama (Nurture), Pono (Righteousness), Lokahi (Harmony or Unity) and
finally Ho`okipa (Hospitality). The six virtues of the Kanaka Makua or
mature person.
The Kanaka Makua then offers himself and his wisdom to help those who
come behind
him. As he “remembers himself” as Io more and more. More and more he
will desire to
Serve others. In this service. In this becoming a commodity to be
consumed, he will find
that there is no true consumption of one. That when he remembers himself
as Io, then he
will suddenly discover that more and more, he himself will be becoming
the all-source.
liberator.net
[drivel snipped]
--
The Liberator
E-Mail: ne...@liberator.net
Web Site: http://www.liberator.net/
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