What is Suse's response to the following?
Jesse Martinez
http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=C1856F2A-F214-4A65-A8C1-4B6CBC1CEED5.
Did it stump Suse or Novell people and community? Bruce Perens is obviously
an OSS advocate and clearly pointed what Novell Suse will face with the
upcoming GPL v.3. Looks like it backfired for Suse big time unless they
plan on forking a different Linux (definitely backfires). Don't flame
unless there is a legitimate response. If you flame, it proves the
impnending implosion of Novell.
houghi
> Did it stump Suse or Novell people and community? Bruce Perens is obviously
> an OSS advocate and clearly pointed what Novell Suse will face with the
> upcoming GPL v.3. Looks like it backfired for Suse big time unless they
> plan on forking a different Linux (definitely backfires). Don't flame
> unless there is a legitimate response. If you flame, it proves the
> impnending implosion of Novell.
1) This is a technical group.
2) GPL3 is not out yet. As if you are asking who will win the 2008 UEFA
championship
I won't flame if you won't troll.
houghi
--
Remind me to write an article on the compulsive reading of news. The
theme will be that most neuroses can be traced to the unhealthy habit
of wallowing in the troubles of five billion strangers. -- Heinlein
ray
There is a reason the US Constitution forbids ex post facto laws. That ban
should appear universally.
Chris Cox
Certain members of the FSF have decided that freedom is no longer as
important as making war. This is similar to having paranoid delusions
of people flaming you when you make a post. Remember that Moglen
and some other members of FSF are specifically trying to craft
verbiage in GPLv3 to nuke companies that use patents... period.
Which sounds admirable, but perhaps not realistic. Unless you
believe that we can get ALL companies to cough up their
patent portfolios. Again, not a bad idea... but probably
not easy to do (unless you know something I don't).
I do believe the United States should take
a leadership position in patent reform (probably since the abuse is
highest there). Perhaps going back to its true intent which was
designed to protect the little guy from large fast and able businesses
that could take an idea to market faster than the inventor. Right now
patents are strictly used for litigation which has replaced the higher
risk practice of doing true R & D (which in turn has led the USA to
being a more serivce based economy, allowing developing nations
to enjoy some prosperity, if corruption doesn't creep in).
The question was asked many times in the chat yesterday and Novell
did a good job of stating that they want to work the deal out so
that it is something everyone can live with. Which may mean that
some things have to become broader. BUT, if Novell does become
the company that successfully negotiates a broad umbrella deal
with the whole Linux (free) planet... will you suddenly become Novell's
best friend? I'm just stating this because the Moglen, Perens
and Petreley's of the world are simply wanting to make war... has
nothing to do with working toward equitable solutions.
I can almost guarantee you that I'm more paranoid than you
are with regards to the company in Redmond. I fully believe
that NOTHING gets in their way (and I mean that in the
worst possible way). The Linspire deal mentioned
in the chat as a victory by Nat, was actually merely another
example of Microsoft using their means to get what they want.
If money didn't work, they would have taken Lindows out.
But that's another story....
My guess.. and it's just a guess.. it that you aren't looking
at trying to see things worked out so much as you are wanting
to see if the witch will float in the water or not. And if she
sinks... I think you'll probably scrape the bottom of the lake
and see if she burns just to make sure of your "findings".
I don't mind you posting your opinion... just try to be honest
about it.
Btw, Perens is somewhat of an open source advocate. He can also
be a loose canon. Can be nice... can be mean. His sword cuts
both ways. Moglen is simply tired of big business getting
involved with Linux. Petreley is simply wanting to lift his
name up more before men. Groklaw is wanting there to be
only Red Hat in the enterprise space (the patent free
enterprise space... which is arguably a very, very, very
small space... )... after all, Novell isn't known for its
wise decision making historically (outside of the SUSE
purchase). I do think that financial need was a motivating
factor in the Novell/Microsoft deal. Novell probably isn't
doing this out of the need to foster free software in
a big business world. So no one's motives are driven out
of pure love in all of this...
Hmmm... maybe if we can simply kill each other off, the
problem will go away. Not a desirable solution, but
a solution.
Will Novell implode? I believe it's possible. Truth, as
much as we want to believe in truth, doesn't seem to matter
in our world as much as the perception of truth. And Novell
certainly has a huge perception hurdle right now. I think
Novell is beginning to understand that... the road just got
a whole lot longer for Novell... but if they can successfully
change public perception (remember all the things that Novell
did after the SUSE acquisition... opening up all sorts of
closed source stuff???), then Novell may become the leader
after all. In fact, a true leader is one that serves. And
a good humbling is often times the first step to servitude.
Let's see what happens next... could go either way.
houghi
> I do think that financial need was a motivating
> factor in the Novell/Microsoft deal. Novell probably isn't
> doing this out of the need to foster free software in
> a big business world. So no one's motives are driven out
> of pure love in all of this...
Neither are any otehr companies. Even RedHat is in it for the money.
That is not a bad way to do things when you are a company.
Jesse Martinez
"houghi" <hou...@houghi.org.invalid> wrote in message
news:lm1u34-...@penne.houghi...
> Jesse Martinez wrote:
>> Did it stump Suse or Novell people and community? Bruce Perens is
>> obviously
>> an OSS advocate and clearly pointed what Novell Suse will face with the
>> upcoming GPL v.3. Looks like it backfired for Suse big time unless they
>> plan on forking a different Linux (definitely backfires). Don't flame
>> unless there is a legitimate response. If you flame, it proves the
>> impnending implosion of Novell.
>
> 1) This is a technical group.
> 2) GPL3 is not out yet. As if you are asking who will win the 2008 UEFA
> championship
>
> I won't flame if you won't troll.
>
> houghi
Sounds like a cock of crap answer to me. If you can't handle the heat or
don't know how to answer legitimately, back of. Luigi or Huigi, people know
you are a Suse proponent, but don't appear anal either when asking a legit
question with stupid remarks.
houghi
>> 1) This is a technical group.
>> 2) GPL3 is not out yet. As if you are asking who will win the 2008 UEFA
>> championship
>>
>> I won't flame if you won't troll.
>>
>> houghi
>
>
> Sounds like a cock of crap answer to me.
Only if you can't read.
> If you can't handle the heat or
> don't know how to answer legitimately, back of.
Look at point two. GPL3 is not out yet.
<snip trollish behaviou, like namecalling>
Again, this is a group to help people with TECHNICAL issues. A deal
between Novell and Microsoft is not a technical issue.
Jesse Martinez
"houghi" <hou...@houghi.org.invalid> wrote in message
Whatever, no wonder your mother names you after phlegm - shit you spit
out. - LUGI HUGI
Jesse Martinez
"houghi" <hou...@houghi.org.invalid> wrote in message
> Jesse Martinez wrote:
>>> 1) This is a technical group.
>>> 2) GPL3 is not out yet. As if you are asking who will win the 2008 UEFA
>>> championship
>>>
>>> I won't flame if you won't troll.
>>>
>>> houghi
>>
>>
>> Sounds like a cock of crap answer to me.
>
> Only if you can't read.
>
>> If you can't handle the heat or
>> don't know how to answer legitimately, back of.
>
> Look at point two. GPL3 is not out yet.
>
> <snip trollish behaviou, like namecalling>
>
> Again, this is a group to help people with TECHNICAL issues. A deal
> between Novell and Microsoft is not a technical issue.
>
> houghi
> --
Now you say this is a technical group, but you have responded to quite a few
things on this NG that talks nothing about technical nature? What's the
difference there? Heat got to you LUGI? don't be hypocritical.
noname
> Did it stump Suse or Novell people and community?
No. Just one example
http://en.opensuse.org/Meetings/Special_Meeting_2006-11-27/transcript
S.
houghi
<snip>
Just another troll
<plonk>
Chris Cox
> Chris Cox wrote:
>>I do think that financial need was a motivating
>>factor in the Novell/Microsoft deal. Novell probably isn't
>>doing this out of the need to foster free software in
>>a big business world. So no one's motives are driven out
>>of pure love in all of this...
>
> Neither are any otehr companies. Even RedHat is in it for the money.
> That is not a bad way to do things when you are a company.
:) Lord help us if money is the prime mover.
Jesse Martinez
"noname" <non...@no.address> wrote in message
news:456c7ab5$0$330$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl...
Thank you! Now, that's what I wanted to read! Something meaningful and
clears the air - for me anyhow. Regardless of what happends, I hope the
Open Source community DO benefit from it.
Jesse Martinez
"houghi" <hou...@houghi.org.invalid> wrote in message
> Jesse Martinez wrote:
> <snip>
> Just another troll
> <plonk>
>
> houghi
> --
Get a life - just because we ask does not make a 'troll' LUGI.
Bill
jmar...@al.com says...
Acknowledgeing that you blow syphlitic goats for a dime a dozen will
neither prove nor disprove anything with regards to Novell.
Bill
--
Gmail and Google Groups. This century's answer to AOL and WebTV.
Jesse Martinez
"Bill" <spam...@tinlc.lumbercartel.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1fd622ecc8a09d91989750@localhost...
You blow me so what does that say? Come on you zealots...come on out!
Pickled pigs knuckles
That you're a syphilitic goat and/or too stupid to think up a decent
comeback.
robert
houghi escreveu:
> Jesse Martinez wrote:
> >> 1) This is a technical group.
> >> 2) GPL3 is not out yet. As if you are asking who will win the 2008 UEFA
> >> championship
> >>
> >> I won't flame if you won't troll.
> >>
> >> houghi
> >
> >
> > Sounds like a cock of crap answer to me.
>
> Only if you can't read.
>
> > If you can't handle the heat or
> > don't know how to answer legitimately, back of.
>
> Look at point two. GPL3 is not out yet.
>
> <snip trollish behaviou, like namecalling>
>
> Again, this is a group to help people with TECHNICAL issues. A deal
> between Novell and Microsoft is not a technical issue.
>
> houghi
It is technical if gcc needs to be forked in order to be used on
opensuse. You may find comfort in ignoring that question, but IMHO that
is the stated intent of the FSF folks.
Robert - until recently a happy suse user.
robert
Chris Cox escreveu:
>
> The question was asked many times in the chat yesterday and Novell
> did a good job of stating that they want to work the deal out so
> that it is something everyone can live with. Which may mean that
> some things have to become broader. BUT, if Novell does become
> the company that successfully negotiates a broad umbrella deal
> with the whole Linux (free) planet... will you suddenly become Novell's
> best friend? I'm just stating this because the Moglen, Perens
> and Petreley's of the world are simply wanting to make war... has
> nothing to do with working toward equitable solutions.
>
Novell's response several times was 'our customers' . This so far IMHO
does not at all seem like a 'broad umbrella deal with the whole Linux
(free) planet' . I for one would be far less skeptical if the deal was
for all linux users. By the comments on all sides quite the contrary -
you are only potentially protected if you use Novell. If that is true,
then I believe that lawsuits will be flying someday rather than
avoided.
War was started when Novell choose to take the communities code - I do
contribute but not under the GPL, and I suppose that the patent deal
applies to non-gpl code - and choose to only include itself in its
patent protection. The remedy as I see it is GPLv3. It may be
convienient to say its not finished, but the entire Gnu toolset which
suse relies heavily on will likely be re-licensed in a way purposely to
isolate Suse. Gnu tools is too large to fork or ignore. Technically -
since it often is said this is a technical forum - is that the future
of many essential tools are in doubt on Suse.
Robert - until recently a happy Suse user.
houghi
> It is technical if gcc needs to be forked in order to be used on
> opensuse. You may find comfort in ignoring that question, but IMHO that
> is the stated intent of the FSF folks.
As that is not yet the case, it is not yet technical. Please come back
when it does. Also note that with technical I mean technical for
existing SUSE distributions, excluding Alpha, Beta, RC and future
releases.
So unless you have a specific SUSE distribution that already has this
issue, it is not a technical issue.
houghi
--
Microsoft says, "Where do you want to go today?"
Apple says, "Where do you want to go tomorrow?"
FOSS says, "Are you coming, or what?"
Taki
> houghi escreveu:
[...]
>> Again, this is a group to help people with TECHNICAL issues. A deal
>> between Novell and Microsoft is not a technical issue.
>>
>> houghi
>
> It is technical if gcc needs to be forked in order to be used on
> opensuse. You may find comfort in ignoring that question, but IMHO that
> is the stated intent of the FSF folks.
If gcc is GPL3'ed, the problem will not be with openSUSE only. Won't
this affect every Linux distro? The Linux kernel developers, including
Mr Linus Torvalds, have stated clearly that they cannot change the
kernel's license from GPL2 to GPL3.
Not merely because they do not like the proposed GPL3, but because every
contributor to the kernel (dead, alive, missing, not talking to anybody,
etc.) has to agree to the change. This is practically impossible,
according to them. Do I misunderstand the situation here?
You may wait for 'Hurd', though. Anyway, if gcc is GPL3'ed, it is most
likely that gcc itself will be forked, to be developed under GPL2.
robert
Taki escreveu:
> robert wrote:
> > houghi escreveu:
> [...]
> >> Again, this is a group to help people with TECHNICAL issues. A deal
> >> between Novell and Microsoft is not a technical issue.
> >>
> >> houghi
> >
> > It is technical if gcc needs to be forked in order to be used on
> > opensuse. You may find comfort in ignoring that question, but IMHO that
> > is the stated intent of the FSF folks.
> [...]
>
> If gcc is GPL3'ed, the problem will not be with openSUSE only. Won't
> this affect every Linux distro? The Linux kernel developers, including
> Mr Linus Torvalds, have stated clearly that they cannot change the
> kernel's license from GPL2 to GPL3.
>
> Not merely because they do not like the proposed GPL3, but because every
> contributor to the kernel (dead, alive, missing, not talking to anybody,
> etc.) has to agree to the change. This is practically impossible,
> according to them. Do I misunderstand the situation here?
>
I think you do misunderstand. You can compile a proprietary app using
gcc right? My understanding is that gcc compiled apps falls under fair
use, just like oracle can run on linux using GCC libs. So I do believe
that the kernel can be GPL2 and be compiled with and run with GPL3
software. Whether
or not you have the right to distribute a GPL3 appliction like GCC if
you have patent agreements is an open question.
robert
houghi escreveu:
> robert wrote:
> > It is technical if gcc needs to be forked in order to be used on
> > opensuse. You may find comfort in ignoring that question, but IMHO that
> > is the stated intent of the FSF folks.
>
> As that is not yet the case, it is not yet technical. Please come back
> when it does. Also note that with technical I mean technical for
> existing SUSE distributions, excluding Alpha, Beta, RC and future
> releases.
>
> So unless you have a specific SUSE distribution that already has this
> issue, it is not a technical issue.
>
> houghi
Fair enough. Tick Tick Tick ;-) .
houghi
> So I do believe
> that the kernel can be GPL2 and be compiled with and run with GPL3
> software. Whether
> or not you have the right to distribute a GPL3 appliction like GCC if
> you have patent agreements is an open question.
As GPL3 is not in existence, your guess is as good as anybodies. Best
take that to a GPL3 oriented forum.
robert
houghi escreveu:
> robert wrote:
> > So I do believe
> > that the kernel can be GPL2 and be compiled with and run with GPL3
> > software. Whether
> > or not you have the right to distribute a GPL3 appliction like GCC if
> > you have patent agreements is an open question.
>
> As GPL3 is not in existence, your guess is as good as anybodies. Best
> take that to a GPL3 oriented forum.
>
> houghi
Stop commenting on this and I might be able to drop it. There is a
draft version and stated intent from the head FSF lawyer implying that
GPLv3 soon will prevent novell from distributing 1/3 of its distro.
Your comment - and I mean this nicely as you have helped me - is much
like Novell's which is ignore the problem which is not for me at least
reassuring. Its your choice and your time but I personally am running
for the door. That's troubling for me as I liked Suse.
Read the protest and you'll see a hell of a lot of Suse users who are
also troubled:
imotgm
Its your choice and your time but I personally am running
> for the door.
Then get on with it. Damn, you run slow! Run to it. Run through it. Don't
let the knob hit you where the good lord split you. Be done with it, and
leave us in peace.
--
imotgm
"Lost? Lost? I've never been lost... Been a tad confused for a
month or two, but never lost."
houghi
> Stop commenting on this and I might be able to drop it. There is a
> draft version and stated intent from the head FSF lawyer implying that
> GPLv3 soon will prevent novell from distributing 1/3 of its distro.
A draft is not a finished version. Also it is not a technical issue.
> Your comment - and I mean this nicely as you have helped me - is much
> like Novell's which is ignore the problem which is not for me at least
> reassuring. Its your choice and your time but I personally am running
> for the door. That's troubling for me as I liked Suse.
I do not ignore the problem. I am just stating that this is not the
place to it.
> Read the protest and you'll see a hell of a lot of Suse users who are
> also troubled:
That still does not make this the right place to discuss it. Even if
Novell would have sold SUSE to Microsoft, making SUSE completely closed
source, this still would not be the correct place to discuss it.