SOTW/Barone/Sugal/Guardala...et. al -> the controversy
Rex
explain the reasons, in short form, for all the bad blood for someone
like me who is realtively new to the forum? It sure seems to be a long
running issue. I'd just like to know what's the cause of all the heat.
Rex
ansermetniac
Countefeiting, trademark infringement
Barone and Sugal are total phonies
Abbedd
Glenn
threads, but I don't think you'll see much that actually accounts for
the irrational nastiness we see here.
I think we're up against the dynamics of anonymous forums where people
never meet the other people they're flaming. No one would behave this
way if he was face-to-face with the people he's addressing. Human
nature doesn't seem to be up to the task of being pleasant when you
can be nasty with impunity. And newsgroups are also outlets for the
psychologically disturbed, the narcissists who think anything they say
makes them look good, the trolls who are just trying to stir up
trouble, and the rest of us, who know we really shouldn't read or
respond to these posts but can't resist because something really gets
our goat.
It's like soap opera, except with the drawback that whenever you turn
it on, you always seem to be watching the same episode.
Glenn
Pete Thomas
>
> I think we're up against the dynamics of anonymous forums where people
> never meet the other people they're flaming. No one would behave this
> way if he was face-to-face with the people he's addressing.
Well a few people might but most of us wouldn't want to stick around
very long.
Sadly what you say rings a certain bell of truth, it's very sad that
people cannot discuss issues that they disagree on without resorting to
insults, misquotation, strawman arguments and abusive language.
The internet could be a wonderful tool for mankind (and of course still
is in many cases), but what a waste of a great resource when this sort
of thing happens. You'd think grown people could behave respectfully
even in disagreement without needing a moderator.
Best Regards
--
Pete Thomas
Saxophone Forum www.breakfastroom.co.uk
New: Jazzrecipes.com
On-line saxophone exercises, jazz theory, Saxophone Instruction DVD. And
other stuff. Site & contact www.petethomas.co.uk
ansermetniac
wrote:
>but I don't think you'll see much that actually accounts for
>the irrational nastiness we see here.
Condoning countefeitng again. Shame on you
Abbedd
Jane & David
Pete Thomas <inv...@reply-via-site.com> wrote:
snip
> You'd think grown people could behave respectfully
> even in disagreement without needing a moderator.
Grown people can, and do.
Regards, David
saxbetel
> Barone and Sugal are total phonies
>
> Abbedd
Really? How so?
ansermetniac
wrote:
>
>> Barone and Sugal are total phonies
>>
>> Abbedd
>
>
>Really? How so?
They have no clue what they are doing. Even Liebman says that Sugal is
a phoney and had the FBI investigate Barone
Has Uncle Phil ever created anything original?
Have you ever heard Sugal and Barone planning their
evilness(counterfeiting and Trademark Infringement). The phone calls
prove they don't know what they are doing and can only copy.
Phil has absolutely no understanding of Musical sound. He is clueless
as to the modern sound exemplified by Trane and Michael Brecker
How did we know that Phlizy ahnd finished the counterfeits? By the
crap hand work. Especially near the tip
Abbedd
Glenn
> --
> Pete Thomas
>
Best regards to you also, and thank you for your many contributions to
this group.
Glenn
ansermetniac
wrote:
>> Best Regards
Just so you know that Pete Thomas has no more expertise than the
sundry mediocre player. Almost everything he says about the nitty
gritty of what causes the saxophone to make its sound, is wrong
For Musical knowledge, history, and other non engineering issues, I
suggest you pay attention to what Tim Price has to say
Putting up your own website and being a moderator on SOTW should not
make you believe that he holds any insight into anything. And based
upon his words, he has none into anything except spin, confusion and
bs. He would have made a good Lawyer or politician
Anybody who has put a mouthpiece and reed in his mouth and has
experienced the phenomenon of vibration and amplification, and then
claims that material makes no difference in sound, is a buffoon.
Abbedd
Design, Manufacturing,Acoustical Engineer
Pete Thomas
> Putting up your own website and being a moderator on SOTW should not
> make you believe that he holds any insight into anything.
Very true. A surprisingly astute statement.
I'd advise anyone to look more deeply into who people are than merely
trust a website. Anyone can make a website.
It's always good to see the bigger picture.
Best Regards
--
Pete Thomas
Saxophone Forum www.breakfastroom.co.uk
pgay...@gmail.com
Jeff - and I mean this sincerely, not to provoke you - what are the
innovations (sonically, not manufacturing-wise, which you've already
spoken about) in the Guardala mouthpieces? I've read the patent, and
it looked like the claims filed in it were general towards a wedge-
shaped baffle into an oval chamber. What is unique about it - that
description seems to describe a lot of mouthpieces going way
back.... I most certainly do NOT claim to be an expert, but if you
explain it I think I'd get the gist of it as I do have some minor
acoustics background and a reasonable materials and general mechanical
engineering background... I'd be interested in focusing you away from
your disagreements and onto your experience, maybe we could learn
something.
Pete
ansermetniac
The patent was for the second genaration models. The text is Lawyer
talk. Forget about it.
For the innovations of the original ones, you will have to buy the
book I am writing
it is called Everything I learned, I Learned on SOTW.
Actually it has another title which I don't want to reveal, as of now
Abbedd
pgay...@gmail.com
Sorry, I'm a little thick... are you seriously writing a book, or are
you kidding around? Sometimes it's hard to capture nuance in text...
If so, is it about mouthpiece design, manufacturing, industry
experiences, or ?
Pete
ansermetniac
Yes. It is about the rise and fall of a certain industry member, so it
contains all the things you listed.
Abebdd
Phil_Barone
In about 89 I had some Guardala mouthpieces that Guardala claimed were
fake but that was never proved. He sued me and Gary Sugal and
basically lost, we all settled for some lame stuff and my lawyer blew
them away. He had sued me once before claiming I was counterfeiting
his mouthpieces just because I put my initials on a couple I worked
on. I went to court with a Link that Guardala worked on and put his
intials on. The judge threw the case out.
Guardala and Jeff Powell also sued some machine companies. One being
Fadal, I know the salesman Dave Ford. What these two creeps did was
buy or lease the machine and complain about it constantly until
finally after using it for a couple of years threatened to sue them if
they didn't take it back so they took the machine back and gave them
their money back. Basically The two creeps got to use the machine for
a long time for free. They did this three times in total because they
felt they didn't have to pay for a machine. Fadal is a standard in the
industry and is a very good machine.
Now everyone knows that Guardala is a criminal but what most people
don't know is that while they were still in business TOGETHER they
were taking peoples money and not delivering mouthpieces. I had a lot
of customers come to me with their stories. Numerous ones and this is
when POWELL was with them.
A last note. If you ask any credible saxophonist any one of them will
tell you that when Mike Brecker sounded best they'll all tell you the
same thing, when he was playing Links. It's a fact and Mike only went
to Guardala because he had two small holes in his throat that made it
painful for him to play. Yes, Mike told me that Dave to some degree
saved his career and gave him credit for that but there's no question
that he sounded MUCH better on Links and his Dukoff. In fact, I always
thought the Guardala sounded like a Kazoo and in my place when Mike
played he was so bright it was just awful and Mike told me that there
was only one sound man that could make him sound good and that he had
to bring him everywhere he went. That's the unadultrated truth.
Lastly, Mike was playing MY mouthpiece before he had to stop playing.
Please buy Kevin Mahogany's CD "My Romance". Mike plays on two cuts,
on one he plays the Guardala, on the other he plays my Hollywood
model. You decide. Finally, read this and have a great day and stop
lying so much Powell, it just contributes to your illness. Phil Barone
Hey Phil! I'm a former tenor player with Tower of Power(toured and
did all horn parts on the cd with Lenny Pickett as guest artist). I'm
interested in your Hollywood model in a size .120-.123. Part of my
interest is because I hear good things about your pieces and.....the
last time I spoke with Mike Brecker, he mentioned that at the time,
that was his favorite mouthpiece to play. I didn't get the chance to
play his so....what's it gonna take to play one in that size? I know
Mike preferred .118 but .123 is what I play. Really appreciate your
help. Thanks! Regards.....Paul Perez
ansermetniac
Total bullshit from Barone again.Want to hear the phone calls. Phil
hand finsihed the moutjpeices Sugal made to pay for his CNC machine.
His crap hand work was all over them.
Anyone who thinks Michael could be Michael on a link knows nothing
about wind playing and musical sound and the genius of Michael Brecker
I sued FADAL because their machine was a piece of shit. And that is
why they took it back.
Phil likes to embarrass himself here telling these lies
Telilng lies like this is agast the settlement document. Phil watch
your ass .The settlement agreement lasts forever.
How can anybody who says Brecker sounds like a Kazoo be taken credibly
as a mouthpiece maker. But he is not. He copies everybody and steals
their names, such as Hollywood. His horns are P Mauriats. Exactly the
same(his own word). His moutphieces , are not original- not one of
them.
Phil should we tell the group how the FBI investigated you for
harrasing Lieb because he would not play your mouthpiece. And what
about YOUR time in jail.
The sax community left in the hands of Phil Barone-what a tragedy
Abbedd
________________________
Please judge me by the enemies I make
F.D.R.
Phil_Barone
>
> - Show quoted text -
You little cretin, the tape was made for you and Guardala. Fadal makes
great machines, it was your lousey programming and workholding that
sucked and I never EVER had any contact with anyone from the FBI. In
the meantime I'm still cookin' while you work for Sam Ash for $6.00 an
hour and you've broken the agreement so many times I'd slam you down
in court just like the first time. You two were just a couple of fly-
by-nighters. You're both gone and you're not ever coming back you
pathetic little worm. PB
ansermetniac
Busllhit agan. The jaealousy you have for Dave is quite vivid on the
phone calls. Am I a fly by night. No. but it is better than being a
never was. I jsut emptyied out a junk box and got lots of gelt for it.
So Leib was lying about he FBI and the picture of a guy in a
wheelchair with his eyes burnt out you sent him, which you told me
also.
FADAL is shit. That is why they had to sell. Their digitizing software
was pure crap. I had to write my own and bail us out.
I taught CNC programming and operation amd CAD/CAm for the FADAL
disitributor in Jersey. Wrong again bozo
And you never won in court.
Tell us all what Dave should expect in jail nnase duipon your
incarcaration. But that was in state hell, not the Federal Countty
club
Phil you can't handle that the only two people that could supply
Michael with the equipment he needed to do his thing was Dave and me.
Get over it. But in your favor, you took Lawrence Feldman from us
Abbedd
Any man who afflicts the human race with ideas must be prepared to see them misunderstood.
- HL Mencken
Phil_Barone
>
> - Show quoted text -
There isn't anything you won't say and that's why you got the boot
from SOTW. You think everything is someone elses fault. The guys on
SOTW are very fair and Harri is a class act and I don't get any favors
whatsoever. You really should consider some therapy and switching your
meds because lexapro isn't working for you. PB
ansermetniac
Phil, I was privy to the moderators lounge for one day due to their
mistake. They hate you too. Anybody with real or even bullshit
expertise, like you, upsets them and their self proclaimed expertise
Join the real word for once. I was booted from SOTW for questioning
the expertise of the moderators, Pete Thomas in particluar
Harri a class act?
" I don't see how Abbedd can be an expert when he does not play the
sax"
Harri the pompous putz
Do you really think what he allows there vis a vis Dave's victims is
that of a class act? Another reason I wss booted, for telling them
what I thought of that
ansermetniac
<philb...@philbarone.com> wrote:
>There isn't anything you won't say
Such as, even though I sold the counterfeits and was caught on tape
conspiring to have them made, I had nothing to do with it
Your lawyer who blew us away wondered why I did not put you out of
buisness as I could have and should have.
Thanks for your machiavellian* response to my kindness
A dose of reality Phil, outside of your brainwashed soldiers, you are
a laughing stock as would be any Chevy dealer who badmouths Rolls
Royce to sell their cars
Abbedd
* Phil explains his devotion to machiavelli, to Sugal, on the tape.
Pete Thomas
On May 13 ansermetniac wrote:
> True true true. Does that justify its existence, with the help of the
> Owner, Moderators and advertisors of SOTW. What is the intent of the
> Owner and moderators. To discredit Brecker in order to discredit
> Guardala to advance Barone.
BUT
On June 28 ansermetniac wrote:
>
> Phil, I was privy to the moderators lounge for one day due to their
> mistake. They hate you too. Anybody with real or even bullshit
> expertise, like you, upsets them and their self proclaimed expertise
(28/6/08)
Let me see if I've got this straight. So SOTW discredits Brecker and
Guardala to advance Barone, who they hate.
Hmmm.
Best Regards
--
Pete Thomas
On-line saxophone exercises, download PDFs, jazz theory, Saxophone
Instruction DVD. Site & contact: www.petethomas.co.uk
ansermetniac
<inv...@reply-via-site.com> wrote:
>
>On May 13 ansermetniac wrote:
>
> > True true true. Does that justify its existence, with the help of the
> > Owner, Moderators and advertisors of SOTW. What is the intent of the
> > Owner and moderators. To discredit Brecker in order to discredit
> > Guardala to advance Barone.
>
>
>BUT
>
>
>On June 28 ansermetniac wrote:
>
> >
> > Phil, I was privy to the moderators lounge for one day due to their
> > mistake. They hate you too. Anybody with real or even bullshit
> > expertise, like you, upsets them and their self proclaimed expertise
>
>(28/6/08)
>
>Let me see if I've got this straight. So SOTW discredits Brecker and
>Guardala to advance Barone, who they hate.
>
>Hmmm.
>
>
>Best Regards
One is in public and one is private
SOTW is a sewer of self proclaimed experts(moderators) who know
nothing and force their crap on the sax comminity with the funding of
Kessler
Roo Pads
P Mauriat
Pete , is is time that you STFU and realize how stupid it was to ban
someone of my stature in the Sax community, with REAL expertise.
Nobody of any consequence believes your crap of why I was banned.
Who is Curlylocks?
Pete Thomas
>
> One is in public and one is private
And your point is...?
> SOTW is a sewer of self proclaimed experts(moderators)
I don't know of any self proclaimed experts among the moderators
(although I believe they are quite expert at moderating)
I'm certainly no expert. Expertise is not a prerequisite of being a
moderator, nor is it necessary to be an expert to join in discussion,
however certainly helps if you are expert at courtesy and rational
debate without resorting to offensive language, even when your opinion
differs from someone else.
> Who is Curlylocks?
Er...????
ansermetniac
<inv...@reply-via-site.com> wrote:
>ansermetniac wrote:
>
>>
>> One is in public and one is private
>
>And your point is...?
My point is a that you allow Barone to have free reign in the public
part of SOTW, but in private the moderators hate him foor his
expertise/
>
>
>> SOTW is a sewer of self proclaimed experts(moderators)
>
>I don't know of any self proclaimed experts among the moderators
>(although I believe they are quite expert at moderating)
>
>I'm certainly no expert. Expertise is not a prerequisite of being a
>moderator, nor is it necessary to be an expert to join in discussion,
>however certainly helps if you are expert at courtesy and rational
>debate without resorting to offensive language, even when your opinion
>differs from someone else.
1) Abbedd: I can do this
Pompous Pete Thomas: I doubt you can
1)A) Abbedd states an opinion
Gordon from NZ: Your opinion is irrelevant
2) I pointed out here that there was libel agaisnt me by J Max on sotw
and it has not been deleted
Pete, When are you and Harri and saxismyprick and the rest going to
realize that my reality trumps thier fantasy. Every time
Abbedd
>
>
>> Who is Curlylocks?
>
>Er...????
>
>
>Best Regards
ansermetniac
<anserm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>1) Abbedd: I can do this
>Pompous Pete Thomas: I doubt you can
Harri's PM in response
Pete is more expert than you are