Behringer Eurotracks
tommy
$200 range? The Mackie 1202 is a little out of my range now, so I was looking
at the Behringer and the Samson mixpads.
Thanks.
MusicMan
Yes, i do have an opinion about Behringer Eurotrack mixers..
But it's not so positive though, they're quite noisy and badly develired...
When the panpot is to be in the middle, the left channel (in my case) gave
more output than the right channel. A lot of Faders are not so precise.
(nothing happens at the last few dBs). And so on..
And some inputs produces overload from themselves!
Perhaps I just got the "wrong" one, but I tried several. All came up with
different problems. My advise: Spend some more money, get more value from a
real mixer. It seems Behringer doesn't care about quality, but they do about
making cheap mixers.
I brought mine back to the shop. I'm now saving up for a normal priced
mixer. I wish you luck!
MusicMan...
tommy heeft geschreven in bericht
<3G9l3.20866$2I2....@news.rdc1.tn.home.com>...
Tremolo
their products and although my Euro 2004 is okay, others I've heard in the
range are a tad ropey.
Go for Mackie, their gear is quality, fairly inexpensive and resells well.
Oh, and BTW if you're looking for an FX box, do not get the Behringer
Virtualiser! For a piece of '24-bit digital' gear, it sure hisses like a
fry-up!
Daver
rough...@my-deja.com
lgxgtr...@post.com (tommy) wrote:
> Any opinion on small Behringer Eurotrack mixers? Looking for
something in the
> $200 range? The Mackie 1202 is a little out of my range now, so I was
looking
> at the Behringer and the Samson mixpads.
>
> Thanks.
>
So...why don愒 you have a look at the Behringer stuff. They got great
products. I惴 also planning to buy one of these cute ones (especially
the MX1604).
I wonder if its out yet?
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Chris G.
Um...he did...he was asking about them. I recommend these days to steer
away from Behringer gear because of their unethical business practices
and their unethical posting on newsgroups posing as newbies and then
answering their own questions about their products. Go look up
Behringer under rec.audio.pro if you want to know more about that...I
don't feel like starting a flame session on this NG. If I were you I
would try to go for a Samson board or better yet, a Soundcraft Notepad
mixer. But it's up to you. I would recommend doing a bit of research
on Behringer though and decide whether your wallet weighs more then your
morals.
Chris G.
rough...@my-deja.com
I don愒 get you guys. I use a Mackie 8-bus in studio. I have nothing
against it. I love it. It's just the job if you can afford it.
But I also use the MX8000 at home and I'm looking at their MX1604 to
use as a submixer. "B" has some great mixers in this price range, the
same as Mackie in theirs.
If you think that "B" are starting their own discussions, why don愒 you
ignore them?
Chris G.
That is only one of their more annoying habits. They wisened up now to
where it's harder to tell what server they are posting from. But really
thats not the reason why Behringer is hated on the rec.audio.pro NG.
The main reason is simply the fact that they are known to blatantly
steal designs from other companies. I mean exact clones in some
instances. Talk to any repair tech who works on Mackie and Behringer
mixers if you don't believe me. This isn't true for all their models
but some of their models it is (hint: the ones that look almost exactly
like Mackie boards except for the Behringer logo). Mackie's not the
only company that they have been stealing designs from. Anyways, if you
want to know more, go look up the lengthy threads and flame wars using
Deja News (power search) under rec.audio.pro
All will be made clear. I used to recommend Behringer gear myself until
I learned more about the company.
To anyone who is considering purchasing Behringer equipment, I suggest
looking up info on their business practices and current and past legal
actions that have been taken against them and then decide whether you
want to support such a company. I don't care how desperate I am for
equipment, I won't do it, especially when their are other brands at
similar prices that will do the job just as well.
As for ignoring Behringer false posts where they are posing as newbies
and then answer their own questions...those are not something you
ignore. Any time a company is caught doing those kinds of sleazy
tactics, you jump all over them and make sure the world knows what they
are doing.
Beleive me, I would really love to buy one of their small 16 channel
4-buss mixers as I am in desperate need of a compact but versatile
4-buss mixer, but I decided just to save up for used Mackie 1604VLZ or
I meight settle for less channels and go for one of the little Yamaha
4-buss mixers.
Chris G.
Chris G.
Hmmm by the way... did you just start using Deja news for surfing the
newsgroups? I did a search engine search and only found the 3 posts to
this NG concerning the Behringer equipment.
Aw shit...I just looked up a Dejanews search just under roughbrook...
Suprise Suprise! Every single damned post you answered or posted has to
do with Behringer equipment. Damn you sure seem to know a hell of alot
about all kinds of Behringer equipment. I haven't seen any other posts
from you on the NG either which indicates to me that you did a Deja News
search under "Behringer" and then came to rush to defend your company
when you saw my post on the alt.music.4-track NG. You know what GET THE
FUCK OUT OF HERE YOU FUCKING BEHRINGER PRICK...that type of shit makes
me mad as hell!
Sincerly,
Chris G.
Chris G.
rough...@my-deja.com
> Hmmm by the way... did you just start using Deja news for surfing
the
> newsgroups? I did a search engine search and only found the 3 posts
to
> this NG concerning the Behringer equipment.
>
> Aw shit...I just looked up a Dejanews search just under roughbrook...
> Suprise Suprise! Every single damned post you answered or posted has
to
> do with Behringer equipment.
Not every post had to do with Beringher, do your job better before
accusing people you don't know anything about...
Damn you sure seem to know a hell of alot
> about all kinds of Behringer equipment.
Of course I know the stuff I work with every day...
I haven't seen any other posts
> from you on the NG either which indicates to me that you did a Deja
News
> search under "Behringer" and then came to rush to defend your company
(my company? If it was my company I'm sure I would have no time to deal
with a bunch like you)
> when you saw my post on the alt.music.4-track NG. You know what GET
THE
> FUCK OUT OF HERE YOU FUCKING BEHRINGER PRICK...that type of shit
makes
> me mad as hell!
I would suggest to smash your guitar (or your head) against the wall to
get your emotions down and maybe after that we can talk like men;
> Sincerly,
>
> Chris G.
>
I will keep on supporting Berhinger equipment because their
price/quality range is very good and most Berhinger users are beginners
who want to know how they can work with their new compressors, gates
and so on...
rough...@my-deja.com
> Hmmm by the way... did you just start using Deja news for surfing
the
> newsgroups? I did a search engine search and only found the 3 posts
to
> this NG concerning the Behringer equipment.
>
> Aw shit...I just looked up a Dejanews search just under roughbrook...
> Suprise Suprise! Every single damned post you answered or posted has
to
alot
> about all kinds of Behringer equipment. I haven't seen any other
posts
> from you on the NG either which indicates to me that you did a Deja
News
> search under "Behringer" and then came to rush to defend your company
THE
> FUCK OUT OF HERE YOU FUCKING BEHRINGER PRICK...that type of shit
makes
> me mad as hell!
>
> Chris G.
>
I will keep on supporting Berhinger equipment because their
price/quality range is very good and most Berhinger users are beginners
who want to know how they can work with their new compressors, gates
and so on...
(why did you post this twice?)
(why did you post this twice?)
rough...@my-deja.com
> As for ignoring Behringer false posts where they are posing as
newbies
> and then answer their own questions...
BEWARE of Tommy!!!
Chris G.
> Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
I posted twice to draw people's attention to you.
It's to much coincidence for me that all your Usenet posts are on
Behringer products and nothing else. I love Dejanews for checking
people's Usenet history.
Your prior postings, which all have to do with Behringer products,
indicate to me that you work for Behringer and are not representing
yourself as a Behringer rep but instead as just a fellow home studio
owner who is just beeming with satisfaction in his Behringer equipment.
Now if you identified yourself as a Behringer rep then I'd be cool with
that. I'd still probably disagree with you or at least question some of
your statements but I wouldn't be as hostile as you would just be doing
your job as a sales weasel... However not stating that you are a
Behringer rep in my opinion is highly unethical in that you are preying
on newbies who most often have no idea as to the unethical business
dealings of the Behringer corporation yet are looking for the cheapest
products they can find for which Behringer usually fits the bill. You
also would be giving the false impression that you are just giving your
opinion as a satisfied home studio owner who uses Behringer products.
Yes they make some equipement that is useful and that sounds and works
fine. Most of it sounds fine because many of their products are almost
exact clones of a competitor's products. This can be verified by any
technician at a music store that does service on Behringer products and
their competitor's products. There's plenty of techs on the
rec.audio.pro NG that can also verify this.
Anyone can also use Dejanews to go do a power-search under the
rec.audio.pro NG if they want all the gory details of Behringer's
history and recent Usenet abuse.
"If you those types of business practices don't bother you and your
wallet weighs more then your morales then it's your money.", is the
advice I give to newbies.
Chris G.
valeria_dyke
Altough I might find guys like this "roughbrook" guy
annoying I don't see where morality comes into this.
Let's say Berringer does "clone" other peoples stuff. Why
does them being able to sell it cheaper an "immoral" thing?
Why should the consumer feel guilty about purchasing
something cheaper? If someone made me a compressor that was
a "clone" of a well-known product, should I refuse it
because he was immoral in "stealing" a big cooperation's
design?
Now, if the Berringer stuff is inferior and they are trying
to pass it off as being better than it is - well, that's a
different story. I haven't personally used any of their
stuff - but if they ARE uncostly clones of good costlier
products than I may just check them out.
Remember IBM? How is this different? Aside from the
newsgroup tactic - why is it wrong for this company to
make "clones". I doubt they are making actual "clones" -
aren't there laws against that?
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
twang
If there's a lawsuit, name it.
If not, then you might be liable yourself for saying what you did.
Even if there are no lawsuits at all, none of us really care about anything
but the cost/performance ratio.
Maybe you should start saying they are making bad copies instead of exact
clones.
Otherwise it sounds like a double whammy.. a guy posing as a behringer hater
who loudly mentions they are exactly like their competitors at a lower
price, doing them more good than harm.
Be less shrill and more informative.
Compare a few brands, quote these techs -who say they are clones and should
be illegal- by name, write an email to behringer telling them the same
thing.
Twang!
valeria_dyke wrote in message <9338042...@www.remarq.com>...
tommy
>
>
>> As for ignoring Behringer false posts where they are posing as
>newbies
>> and then answer their own questions...
>
>BEWARE of Tommy!!!
I made the original post in this thread, but please be advised that I have no
connection to Behringer. I was looking for opinions on their mixers after
seeing them in Musician's Friend.
Look back at the thread, roughbrook.
Gregor Sauer
"Chris G." schrieb:
> rough...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > In article <379F68...@txdirect.net>,
> > "Chris G." <chri...@txdirect.net> wrote:
> > > rough...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > >
> > > > In article <3G9l3.20866$2I2....@news.rdc1.tn.home.com>,
> > > > lgxgtr...@post.com (tommy) wrote:
> > > > > Any opinion on small Behringer Eurotrack mixers? Looking for
> > > > something in the
> > > > > $200 range? The Mackie 1202 is a little out of my range now, so I
> > was
> > > > looking
> > > > > at the Behringer and the Samson mixpads.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > So...why don愒 you have a look at the Behringer stuff. They got
> > great
> > > > products. I惴 also planning to buy one of these cute ones
> > (especially
> > > > the MX1604).
> > > > I wonder if its out yet?
> > > >
> > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > > > Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
> > >
> > > Um...he did...he was asking about them. I recommend these days to
> > steer
> > > away from Behringer gear because of their unethical business
> > practices
> > > and their unethical posting on newsgroups posing as newbies and then
> > > answering their own questions about their products. Go look up
> > > Behringer under rec.audio.pro if you want to know more about that...I
> > > don't feel like starting a flame session on this NG. If I were you
> > I
> > > would try to go for a Samson board or better yet, a Soundcraft
> > Notepad
> > > mixer. But it's up to you. I would recommend doing a bit of
> > research
> > > on Behringer though and decide whether your wallet weighs more then
> > your
> > > morals.
> > >
> > > Chris G.
> > >
> >
> > I don愒 get you guys. I use a Mackie 8-bus in studio. I have nothing
> > against it. I love it. It's just the job if you can afford it.
> > But I also use the MX8000 at home and I'm looking at their MX1604 to
> > use as a submixer. "B" has some great mixers in this price range, the
> > same as Mackie in theirs.
> > If you think that "B" are starting their own discussions, why don愒 you
> > ignore them?
>
> That is only one of their more annoying habits. They wisened up now to
> where it's harder to tell what server they are posting from. But really
> thats not the reason why Behringer is hated on the rec.audio.pro NG.
> The main reason is simply the fact that they are known to blatantly
> steal designs from other companies. I mean exact clones in some
> instances. Talk to any repair tech who works on Mackie and Behringer
> mixers if you don't believe me. This isn't true for all their models
> but some of their models it is (hint: the ones that look almost exactly
> like Mackie boards except for the Behringer logo). Mackie's not the
> only company that they have been stealing designs from. Anyways, if you
> want to know more, go look up the lengthy threads and flame wars using
> Deja News (power search) under rec.audio.pro
> All will be made clear. I used to recommend Behringer gear myself until
> I learned more about the company.
> To anyone who is considering purchasing Behringer equipment, I suggest
> looking up info on their business practices and current and past legal
> actions that have been taken against them and then decide whether you
> want to support such a company. I don't care how desperate I am for
> equipment, I won't do it, especially when their are other brands at
> similar prices that will do the job just as well.
>
> As for ignoring Behringer false posts where they are posing as newbies
> and then answer their own questions...those are not something you
> ignore. Any time a company is caught doing those kinds of sleazy
> tactics, you jump all over them and make sure the world knows what they
> are doing.
> Beleive me, I would really love to buy one of their small 16 channel
> 4-buss mixers as I am in desperate need of a compact but versatile
> 4-buss mixer, but I decided just to save up for used Mackie 1604VLZ or
> I meight settle for less channels and go for one of the little Yamaha
> 4-buss mixers.
>
>
> Chris G.
>
> >
> > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
If Behringer would EXACTLY copy Mackie, I would be lucky.
But it isn't.
I bought a Behinger MX 802 for using in small job, especially as a good mic
preamplifier for live recording to. But than I tested the mixer with a friend
of mine in his studio (good monitores are important). We did recordings with
a real good studio mikrofone (Neumann U87) by using the B. and a mackie 1604
VLZ. We used only the preamplifieres an there was a clear difference. The
Behringer sounded thin, Mackie full, warm and transparent too.
I say this: Be sure what you want with the mixer. Behringer (mixers) are
NOTHING for professionell use. If you wouldn't risk any sleepless time
because the sound is seems not to be what it could, invest the money and buy
Mackie. I did this and bought a 1202VLZ.
Gregor
^broken^
>Even if there are no lawsuits at all, none of us really care about anything
>but the cost/performance ratio.
i disagree...i think a lot of people care about more than just the
product...if i know a company is known for trying to rip off it's
customers, copying other brands, etc, i wont buy their products...i'd
rather give my money to a company that cares about their customers,
and makes the best product they can, even if it means paying a little
more for it...i'd take a mackie over a behringer anyday...
--travis
twang
^broken^ wrote in message <37a92395....@news.eburg.com>...
>On Wed, 4 Aug 1999 22:55:07 -0500, "twang" <tw...@rconnect.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Even if there are no lawsuits at all, none of us really care about
anything
>>but the cost/performance ratio.
>
>i disagree...i think a lot of people care about more than just the
>product...if i know a company is known for trying to rip off it's
>customers,
Of course, but that's adding a crime that's not in evidence.
copying other brands,
And on this point, there is no legal proof of the charge, and I won't find
Behringer guilty of something on hearsay.
etc, i wont buy their products...
Me either, but we don't really know these things are true here. To judge
Behringer on these posts would be a crime in it's own right.
i'd
>rather give my money to a company that cares about their customers,
Well. I suggest you take a good look at all the products in your house. Even
the food and medicine.
Then check each of those companies histories and see how you feel about this
overall.
I think caring about the customer starts with making a product which lives
up to it's claims, does what it's expected, and it's price is fair.
If I find out a company is really ripping it's workers off, I don't buy it.
If a company is overcharging me, making a faulty product, I don't buy it.
If a company has stolen a design, I don't buy the product.
They have to be valid charges, proved in court, or obvious by comparison.
>and makes the best product they can, even if it means paying a little
>more for it...i'd take a mackie over a behringer anyday...
I probably would, too, actually.
I'm not arguing the relative merits of the two brands. I'm saying I have no
proof. I'm saying there are no suits filed that I know of.
If I were to say anything about choosing a Behringer it would be this: given
the attitude that accusations make guilt for at least two of you in this
thread, I reject your opinions on Behringers actual merits and would surely
check them out myself and make my own decision.
If I went around saying you screwed pigeons do you think it would be right
for others to just take my word for it?
There's no doubt of Mackies reputation and quality, and I have heard from
Behringer owners that they do the job, are cost effective, and after all,
there's a lot of product out there, a lot of application, so why shouldn't I
believe that a company in business that long with that much product has
something to offer of use?
Twang!
>--travis
Chris G.
(sigh)...ok fine...if you don't want to do the research yourself using
Deja News and search engines then I'll go dig all the crap up if you
insist. I'll post again on this thread when I finish digging up the
dirt for all to read.
Chris G.
Chris G.
>
> Morals?
>
> Altough I might find guys like this "roughbrook" guy
> annoying I don't see where morality comes into this.
>
> Let's say Berringer does "clone" other peoples stuff. Why
> does them being able to sell it cheaper an "immoral" thing?
> Why should the consumer feel guilty about purchasing
> something cheaper? If someone made me a compressor that was
> a "clone" of a well-known product, should I refuse it
> because he was immoral in "stealing" a big cooperation's
> design?
>
> Now, if the Berringer stuff is inferior and they are trying
> to pass it off as being better than it is - well, that's a
> different story. I haven't personally used any of their
> stuff - but if they ARE uncostly clones of good costlier
> products than I may just check them out.
>
> Remember IBM? How is this different? Aside from the
> newsgroup tactic - why is it wrong for this company to
> make "clones". I doubt they are making actual "clones" -
> aren't there laws against that?
>
Woooooeeee Hold the boat! You are way off. Have you heard of a
concept called "licencing"? Apparently you and Herr Berhinger have not.
If the other companies are not licensing the designs to Behringer, then
what they are doing is STEALING. NO two ways around it...its just plain
illegal. All those PC companies making IBM clones licensed that
technology originally. If other companies had just decided to start
copying IBM computers IBM would have sued them to hell.
Last I heard Mackie was still actively pursuing a lawsuit against
Behringer. I'm going to go off now and dig all the "evidence" up for
Mr. Twang.
Now if stealing is ok in your book, then you go on right ahead and buy
Behringer equipment.
Chris G.
Chris G.
Ok...I just tried DejaNews several times and it looks like they're
having some problems or my IP is haveing problems as I kept getting
server errors with them. However here's what I dug up doing a few web
searches:
Behringer copyright infringement info.
http://www.mmrmagazine.com/inews/aug97/w-mackiesuessamson.htm
(Mackie vs. SamAsh/Behringer lawsuit info-The SamAsh suit has been
resolved however the lawsuit against Behringer is still ongoing.)
-----------------------
http://www.sfm.ca/news_archive/mkienews.html
Look under the July 8th heading.
-------------------------
Here's a quote concerning Behringer's business practices from the
Sweetwater Sound website at:
http://insync.sweetwater.com/archive-may97.html
" Marvin Caesar, President of Aphex Systems, paid us a visit here at
Sweetwater Sound recently. If you ever have an opportunity to hear the
man speak on compressors, gates, limiters, and exciters, jump at the
chance - he truly is an authority on the topic! In addition to
enlightening us on processing, Marvin also gave us the scoop on his
lawsuit with Behringer. As you are probably aware, Uli Behringer proudly
makes direct copies of successful products, and sells them under his
Behringer brand (How direct? Compare a Mackie 8 bus to a Behringer...
this is one of the reasons Sweetwater no longer carries Behringer
products.)
We're happy to say that Aphex has won their lawsuit, we'll keep you
informed as to the progress of other manufacturer's pending suits
against Behringer..."
----------------------------
Note that Aphex "won" that lawsuit. Which means Behringer was found
guilty of stealing their competitors product designs.
Hopefully DejaNews will be functioning with my IP properly by tommorow
so I can dig up all the dirt from the rec.audio.pro archives.
As long as sleazy Behringer reps like Roughbrook keep posting their lies
on this and other NG's I'm going to keep posting this stuff until they
quit that crap or at least properly identify themselves. How do I know
he's a rep? Do you know anyone else who only posts on Usenet on posts
concerning one particular company? The only people I know who do that
are those who work for that particular company. I usually don't get
into nasty flame wars or even cuss much, but Behringer's Usenet abuse
really really pisses me off.
Chris G.
twang
Great.. the information below is exactly what I'm talking about.
If I may suggest, when you find something like this and feel strongly about
it, if you intend to post more than once, or are compelled to by argument,
please put the pertinent urls in your sig. .. this way everyone will be
able to discuss the subject with full information.
I'll check these out and I'm looking forward to more information about this.
Very good posting, congrats.
and thanks.
Twang!
Chris G. wrote in message >> (sigh)...ok fine...if you don't want to do the
valeria_dyke
occur to me when I wrote the post. DUH!! I still wouldn't
care if the stuff was licenced, though. Just being honest.
If I could get a uncostly computer that works by some guy
who made it in his basement - no licence - I would ( no, I
wouldn't buy other people's stolen property ).
But this whole situation has brought up another question in
my mind. How is Berringer able to sell these "clones"
cheaper? I'm sure they're still making a profit - it's not
like they're the "robin hood" types exactly.
I lack the loyalty you seem to have for these big
cooperations. I'm cynically convinced they screwed quite a
few people on their way to the top - so now that they're
getting screwed it doesn't neccessarily make me feel bad
about anything. So when you try to make this an issue
of, "if you're immoral than go ahead and buy the berringer
stuff..." than I have to reply by saying that it's NOT
immoral. It's just the game. If anything, it's merely a
question of the least of two "evils". And "evil" is "evil".
Actually, it's about who's got the best lawyers. And more
money gets you better lawyers. I'm sure Mackie's got some
good lawyers...???
Erwin Timmerman
> I'm not arguing the relative merits of the two brands. I'm saying I have no
> proof. I'm saying there are no suits filed that I know of.
Go here
http://www.deja.com/home_ps.shtml (Deja News - Power Search)
Type in the box "Forum" rec.audio.pro
Type in the box "Keywords" Behringer
And you will find thousands of articles about this issue. Including articles
about lawsuits Mackie filed (and WON) etc etc. It went as far that Mackie tech
support received calls from Behringer customers because the manual was copied to
such an extent that they forgot to change the tech support addresses.
It's a never ending discussion on rec.audio.pro. Why? Because people
continuously say that they don't know of any proof, then other people give it
and one week later someone who didn't read the whole thread jumps in and says
there is no proof etc etc etc. So welcome to the club.
I hope this discussion will not get the same proportion here as on
rec.audio.pro...
Erwin Timmerman
Chris G.
>
> Hmm, good point about the IBM "clones" - it just didn't
> occur to me when I wrote the post. DUH!! I still wouldn't
> care if the stuff was licenced, though. Just being honest.
> If I could get a uncostly computer that works by some guy
> who made it in his basement - no licence - I would ( no, I
> wouldn't buy other people's stolen property ).
>
> But this whole situation has brought up another question in
> my mind. How is Berringer able to sell these "clones"
> cheaper? I'm sure they're still making a profit - it's not
> like they're the "robin hood" types exactly.
>
> I lack the loyalty you seem to have for these big
> cooperations. I'm cynically convinced they screwed quite a
> few people on their way to the top - so now that they're
> getting screwed it doesn't neccessarily make me feel bad
> about anything. So when you try to make this an issue
> of, "if you're immoral than go ahead and buy the berringer
> stuff..." than I have to reply by saying that it's NOT
> immoral. It's just the game. If anything, it's merely a
> question of the least of two "evils". And "evil" is "evil".
>
> Actually, it's about who's got the best lawyers. And more
> money gets you better lawyers. I'm sure Mackie's got some
> good lawyers...???
>
Well if you are convinced that all corporations are evil then my
arguements won't convince you. Mackie's customer relations has always
treated me very well the few times I've contacted with questions on some
of their products and have listened to my suggestions. Also Mackie has
always had strong employee loyalty because they treat their workers
right. I like to support companies and yes even corporations who try to
do the right thing. Companies like FMR audio, Gadget Labs, Line-6 and
Mackie are some of the companies that fall into this category for me.
By using my spending dollars I want to encourage those companies that
are doing what is right. If they start doing some really nasty stuff to
screw people over, then I would stop buying their products.
Also someone building cheap computer clones in their basement and the
large Behringer corporation can not be compared. The guy in the
basement isn't doing it to get rich, but most likely because he does it
as a hobby that he makes a little money on the side with. He's also not
making any dent at all into the sales of the company whos product he is
copying. Most of these types usually still use modified designs of
their own using some else's design to start with as a template. You see
this alot with guitar amps and pedals that are made by hobbiests and
really small boutique amp/pedal businesses.
You asked how the Behringer Corp. makes their products so inexpensive.
Simple. Very cheap Chinese labor and low R&D overhead due to their
cloneing. Some techs have also claimed that they use substandard parts
but I can't verify that. Using the cheapest parts available would also
bring costs down.
It's just my opinion that stealing designs is just plain wrong and that
supporting such a company by buying their products is wrong unless you
have absolutely no alternative and desperatly need that product.
Chris G.
ronct
valeria_dyke <poly...@iname.com> wrote in message
news:9339234...@www.remarq.com...
> I lack the loyalty you seem to have for these big
> cooperations. I'm cynically convinced they screwed quite a
> few people on their way to the top - so now that they're
> getting screwed it doesn't neccessarily make me feel bad
> about anything. So when you try to make this an issue
> of, "if you're immoral than go ahead and buy the berringer
> stuff..." than I have to reply by saying that it's NOT
> immoral. It's just the game. If anything, it's merely a
> question of the least of two "evils". And "evil" is "evil".
valeria,
Maybe some of those companies have gotten so big because folks actually like
their products. I kow this isn't always the case but if you make a good
solid product folks will buy it. Mackie has an excellent reputation for
their products and unfortunately Berringer does not. The design may look
similar but the componets used in the construction are much cheaper in
quality and the novice gets screwed.
ronct
ronct
Thanks for posting the info and I just wanted to let you know that I agree
what you have been posting on this thread and support your efforts.
ronct
Chris G. <chri...@txdirect.net> wrote in message
news:37AA3A...@txdirect.net...
valeria_dyke
disturbed by the fact that more than half of the stuff I
buy was made by the tiny hands of foriegn under-payed
babes.
Hmmm, I wonder what cooperations are free to cast the first
stone?
I'd be very interested in an unbiased list detailing what
companies rely on cheap labor to turn a mighty profit. I've
been surprised more than once - it turns out that
companies that use cheap 3rd world labor don't neccessarily
pass the savings on to consumers. These cooperations have a
tendancy to get mighty fat mighty quick.
As for Mackie - I have no idea. I'm sure they've got good
customer service skills but that hardly impresses me.
That's expected. I have nothing against them - but I don't
neccessarily feel obligated to feel bad about them getting
jacked.
To tell you the truth - as much as find big corps.
annoying - i'll continue to buy all the crap. I'm a spoiled
american brat with soo much time on my hands it's not even
funny. Sitting at a stupid desk thinking about "what songs
I'm gonna record tonight..." - meanwhile some dumb kid is
in a sweat shop pulling 75 cents an hour.
twang
valeria_dyke wrote in message
>Ahh! Cheap Labor! This is very interesting, I'm always
>disturbed by the fact that more than half of the stuff I
>buy was made by the tiny hands of foriegn under-payed
>babes.
(snip)
>To tell you the truth - as much as find big corps.
>annoying - i'll continue to buy all the crap. I'm a spoiled
>american brat with soo much time on my hands it's not even
>funny. Sitting at a stupid desk thinking about "what songs
>I'm gonna record tonight..." - meanwhile some dumb kid is
>in a sweat shop pulling 75 cents an hour.
>
what is it.. 86% of the worlds wealth is 'owned' by 2% of the worlds people?
Put yourself in perspective.
some of those guys fly over starvation while objecting to the caviar in
first class.
I keep it simple.. show me a guy with ten million dollars who doesn't play
guitar, and I'll show you an idjut.
Twang!
Chris G.
>
> Ahh! Cheap Labor! This is very interesting, I'm always
> disturbed by the fact that more than half of the stuff I
> buy was made by the tiny hands of foriegn under-payed
> babes.
>
> stone?
That in itself is not always wrong. When looking at cheap labor you
have to take into acount the cost of living in those countries. You
often find that the wages they make are actually quite good compared to
other jobs. They're not all sweat shops or prison slave labor
facilities. Also most corporations these days don't make a huge deal of
this. It's only folks like myself that do.
> I'd be very interested in an unbiased list detailing what
> companies rely on cheap labor to turn a mighty profit. I've
> been surprised more than once - it turns out that
> companies that use cheap 3rd world labor don't neccessarily
> pass the savings on to consumers. These cooperations have a
> tendancy to get mighty fat mighty quick.
True. That is the law of business. Maximize profits. However there is
a catch...how immoral and unethical is a business willing to be in order
to maximize profits? That extra money doesn't always go to the
consumers but if a company wants to be extremely competitive (because it
faces stiff competition) then it either has to put out a better product
or become extremely competitive on its pricing of its products. In the
latter case, the savings from cheap labor do indeed get passed on to the
consumer.
> As for Mackie - I have no idea. I'm sure they've got good
> customer service skills but that hardly impresses me.
> That's expected. I have nothing against them - but I don't
> neccessarily feel obligated to feel bad about them getting
> jacked.
For me customer service is a HUGE HUGE deal. I've dealt with ALOT of
companies that made feel the way you do about big corporations. SEARS
(the department store) is one such example. I used to work for Sears
Teleservice so I know alot about what goes on within that company, how
they treat customers, and how they treat employees. It's just downright
disgusting. I've had alot of bad experiences also with computer
software and hardware companies who wouldn't know customer service if it
bit them on their ass. It is EXTREMELY frustrating when I really need
their help and they just choose to pass me on to some other moron or
department continuously in circles or when I get a jerk or someone who
sounds like a lawyer or barely speaks english on the line. So when I
run across a company with really friendly, highly knowledgable, and
helpful customer service reps (real people, no computer) I am extremely
happy because those companies are so rare. I've had great detailed
email exchanges with reps from Line 6 and also fantastic technical
support from Rob Ranc at Gadget Labs. The founder of FMR, Mark
McQuilken (the creator of the famed RNC) also personally called me to
see how I liked my RNC compressor after I had recieved it. All those
types of things are hallmarks of great customer service. When I see
corporations giving good customer service it means alot to me and I try
to support that company. While I'm the first to point out what is wrong
with a certain corporation, I'm also always ready to point out what is
right with a corporation and praise them for it.
While the parts in Mackie boards are mostly made in Asia (as are almost
all electronics components these days), the design and manufacturing
takes place in the U.S.. Of coarse it is certainly possible thet Mackie
will make some new factories overseas for cheaper labor. They may have
to in order to compete.
> To tell you the truth - as much as find big corps.
> annoying - i'll continue to buy all the crap. I'm a spoiled
> american brat with soo much time on my hands it's not even
> funny. Sitting at a stupid desk thinking about "what songs
> I'm gonna record tonight..." - meanwhile some dumb kid is
> in a sweat shop pulling 75 cents an hour.
I'm pretty much fall in the same boat, although I don't have as much
time on my hands as I would like...but I damn well appreciate having so
many incredible luxuries after living in many 3rd world countries and
seeing REAL poverty up close and personal as well as after going through
Army Basic training and AIT. I remember coming back and walking into
my bedroom after Basic/AIT just so totally happy and then freaking out
at having my own stereo and TV. That was soooo Cool! Being able to
have total freedom to go where I wanted to, when I wanted to was also
very incredible.
So now everytime I get pissed because I don't have enough money to buy a
new 1604VLZPro mixer or a Gadget labs Wave 8*24 soundcard, I just
remember those experiences and suddenly I feel REEEEAAAAlly fortunate to
have all that I have. Everything then falls into proportion.
By the way...Sorry I still haven't posted all the stuff from
Dejanews yet...I actually have an Army Reserve drill this today and
tommorow. I just wanted to type this quick before I went to sleep.
Chris G.
dbarc...@my-deja.com
41 posts I could find under deja for him (at deja and compuserve), 34
were specific to B-ring equipment. Two asked about products (guitar
speakers and violin pickup) not offered by B, two were about church
sound, and the other three were jokes.
He owns or uses the MX8000 mixer, feedback destroyer, 2300, super x-
over, ultracurve, virtulizer, duaflex& ultrafex (in studio), MX-2442
(live),ultrapatch, SNR 2000 denoiser.
Also sings praises to the mx9000 mixer, mx 2004a (vs yamaha 12x4),
ultragain preamp (vs amt tube). He bleats abour ultramixer and
modulizer to come, then is told by a stated B rep in US that this is
wishful vaporware at this time, then RB says that german web site says
they are almost out. Loves pro autocom as cheap compressor vs alesis
3630. In a thread about the FMR RNC compressor, he drops in and
mentions only the B-ring mbx 2200, gushing about its external side
chain. (Yea right pal, like the RNC doesn't have one? - of course it
does.)
The only criticism of any Behringer product is that the 2300 clearly
does not do some of the functions claimed in the marketing hype. The
feedback elim is a bit tricky, but he has methods to make it work as he
has used live for about a year. He does say the Yamaha 12 x 4 can be
fine, but says the b 2004 eq more musical and more preamp gain.
So this guy has vast experience or faith in Behringer products. He
always goes for cheap, though the instant set-up of the patch bay might
be nice vs others. He might not actually work for the company, but
seems to always defend it and its products without saying that any
other product would be better.
I don't run a studio or play in a band. A lot of my stuff came from
blowout purchases as companies changed models. Roughbrook seems to be
on the modest price end of the industry. I have trouble beliving that
what he only used is new Behringer stuff. I would expect to hear
mentions of other low-end companies, as well as older higher line
stuff that the church, studio or band got used. While RB seems to be an
engineer and not a player, lets look at his all B equipment vs mine.
Almost all of mine is older, but bought new or store demo.
My stuff -
Ross 8 x 2 board (w/inserts, 3 bd eq), Re-AN patch bay, Alesis Wedge,
Yamaha 12-bit reverb/distortion, 2 Sequential multi-track and MAX
synths and TOM drum machine. Korg P-3 piano, Roland mini
mixer/compressor. BBE 462 enhancer, DOD gate, Casio CZ1, Elec Sax, MIDI
patch bay. Vestax casette 4-track, Radio shack mixer and elec reverb,
and 10 band eq. Midi bass, Yamaha "toy" midi keyboard shaped like
guitar, DOD passive direct boxes, etc -NOTICE THE BRAND MIX!
Now, if you were to start from nothing at the low level and need
equipment, and not trust used, you might have 20% Behringer
products on a price and assumed feature basis only. How their products
stand
up in paid studio use is something you can track in Rec.audio.pro. From
what I've seen, it isn't very good yet.
Roughbrook, why don't you post your relationship (if any) with
Behringer, or explain why, in over 20 products, the Behringer is
preferable over the competing products. I won't (yet) call you a #^*^
$*&%^(^%, like Chris G. did. But he has a long history of evaluating
products fairly in these forums and you seem not to.
Dan Barch
Lansing MI
Chris G nails Roughbrook...
In article <7o7kdj$3lc$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
rough...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>
> > Hmmm by the way... did you just start using Deja news for surfing
> the
> > newsgroups? I did a search engine search and only found the 3 posts
> to
> > this NG concerning the Behringer equipment.
> >
> > Aw shit...I just looked up a Dejanews search just under
roughbrook...
> > Suprise Suprise! Every single damned post you answered or posted
has
> to
> > do with Behringer equipment.
> Not every post had to do with Beringher, do your job better before
> accusing people you don't know anything about...
>
> Damn you sure seem to know a hell of alot
> > about all kinds of Behringer equipment.
>
> Of course I know the stuff I work with every day...
>
> I haven't seen any other posts
> > from you on the NG either which indicates to me that you did a Deja
> News
> > search under "Behringer" and then came to rush to defend your
company
>
> (my company? If it was my company I'm sure I would have no time to
deal
> with a bunch like you)
>
> > when you saw my post on the alt.music.4-track NG. You know what GET
> THE
> > FUCK OUT OF HERE YOU FUCKING BEHRINGER PRICK...that type of shit
> makes
> > me mad as hell!
>
> I would suggest to smash your guitar (or your head) against the wall
to
> get your emotions down and maybe after that we can talk like men;
> > Sincerly,
> >
> > Chris G.
> >
> I will keep on supporting Berhinger equipment because their
> price/quality range is very good and most Berhinger users are
beginners
> who want to know how they can work with their new compressors, gates
> and so on...
>
Chris G.
When I did the last DejaNews search I didn't see any posts on guitars or
church sound systems...oh wait, I think I do remember the church sound
system post but if I remember correctly that one also had a plug for
Behringer products. I'll go check again. Thanks. I'm glad people are
willing to do their own research and not just trust what others post.
Chris G.
Chris G.
included roughbrook's old compuserve email address. I came up with
basicaly the same results you did...while he's surfing through the net
for Behringer product questions or threats, I'm not suprised that he
finds a few other things that catch his interest. However like
yourself his vast knowledge and experience about a wide variety of
Behringer products is what baffles me. Like you, I know of no one else
that has that number of Behringer products or products of any single
compnay in their home studios or live sound rigs. Roughbrook has also
never denied that he was a Behringer rep to my knowledge. I just think
that at the very least he should identify himself properly. There's
another Behringer on the rec.audio.pro newsgroup who always clearly
represents himself as a Behringer rep when he endorses their products or
any of the other products he represents.
He goes under the email name Hott Jamms and his name is John Amstadter
He identifies himself as: "Behringer Rep Midwest". (he also reps for
other companies but he identifies himself as a rep of that brand if he
is commenting on them).
He is in my opinion a good reputable Behringer rep who does his job
skillfully and without deceit. He also comments on posts and often
recommends other equipment or systems. Overall he's a pretty good guy.
I think roughbrook needs to take some salesman ship lessons from John.
Chris G.
Chris G.
mistaken, I did see that church fundraiser post didn't have anything to
do with Behringer products... I came up with basicaly the same results
questions or threats, I'm not suprised that he finds a few other things
that catch his interest. However like yourself his vast knowledge and
experience about a wide variety of Behringer products is what baffles
me. Like you, I know of no one else that has that number of Behringer
products or products of any single compnay in their home studios or live
sound rigs. Roughbrook has also never denied that he was a Behringer
rep to my knowledge. I just think that at the very least he should
identify himself properly. There's another Behringer on the
rec.audio.pro newsgroup who always clearly represents himself as a
Behringer rep when he endorses their products or any of the other
products he represents.
He goes under the email name Hott Jamms and his name is John Amstadter
He identifies himself as: "Behringer Rep Midwest". (he also reps for
other companies but he identifies himself as a rep of that brand if he
is commenting on them).
He is in my opinion a good reputable Behringer rep who does his job
skillfully and without deceit. He also comments on posts and often
recommends other equipment or systems. Overall he's a pretty good guy.
I think roughbrook needs to take some salesman ship lessons from John.
after I pressed "send" so I could add a few more comments.
Chris G.
Chris G.
Warning: this is a very long group of reposts. Oh also you may have to maximize the screen size of your
newsgroup browser so you don't get the sentences all misaligned. Sorry I wasn't able to edit it, that would
have taken many hours to do. I've already spent hours looking all this stuff up but I'm going to save it all
so that I can repost or email all of this to anyone who asks why Behringer is considered a disreputable
company or asks me to prove it. Anyways here is the stuff I dug up from DejaNews:
Chris G.
(p.s.-My apologies if those whos posts I copied do not want to have their posts reposted...let me know and I
will remove you from future reposts.)
-------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Advice on Behringer MIC2200 Mic Pre
Date: 1999/04/12
Author: m.leidel <m.le...@behringer.de>
It is always amazing how facts are twisted or how people come up with stories. I
respect your personal opinion but let us clarify some things.
1.) The Aphex case many years ago was mainly about a dispute about Aphex's
patent and Uli Behringer's own patent application. Our circuitry
was very different since it was amplitude independent which is great to
get harmonics even at low levels. The case was settled outcourt. 2.) We never had
any dispute with dbx.
3.) Mackie. If you really look at the legal documents than you will find
out that Mackie lost the case on all copyright and patent
infrindgement.
We have now sued Mackie for various things which we cannot and don't want to
dislose here. This is not our style.
We make great equipment at great prices. Some competitors don't like it
and they think to defame us here on the net is their way of
competition.
They also prefer to hide their names rather than showing their identity.
This is OK for us.
Best regards
Michael Leidel
Behringer Customer Support Manager
**********
Subject: Behringer lies
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 18:22:27 GMT
From: marvin...@my-dejanews.com
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
This message is prompted by replies made by Michael Liedel, customer support
manager of Behringer, regarding Ulrich Behringer's history of theft
and lies. Inasmuch as Aphex was the first company targeted by Behringer and
inasmuch as I was directly and personally involved during the entire episode,
everything that is contained in this message is the truth as I know it.
Liedel stated that "the Aphex case was mainly about a dispute about Aphex's patent
and Uli Behringer's own patent application". That is a lie.
The truth is that Behringer copied the Aural Exciter Type B, right down to
the circuit board and the manual, and called it the Typ F. The front panel
was made to look very similar to our unit. The manual, being so blatant a
copy, caused people who bought the Behringer copy to call our
distributor
in Germany for service. When it became clear to us that Behringer was going
to be more than a garage operation, we first sent a legal letter to him demanding that
he stop and then filed a patent suit.
To suggest that Behringer had a patent filing himself is also a lie. He abused the
legal system in Germany to delay justice. It took six years to
get the court to finally issue an judgment of patent infringement and forced him to
stop selling infringing products. Behringer then told the world that he 'discovered'
that it was better to not generate harmonics- that was after he 'invented' his own
harmonic generator which just happened
to be a copy of the Aural Exciter.
After the infringement was proven in court (not out of court as Liedel stated), the
next step was to establish damages. That took another two years through the delay
tactics that Behringer continued to use. The court
finally caught on to his games. On the night before the last hearing, Behringer
claimed to have a cold and asked for another delay. I had flown
from LA to Frankfurt and the judge denied the request. At the hearing the
lawyer for Behringer was admonished by the judge and told to agree to pay
an amount which would be acceptable to us. If that agreement was not reached
within a short time, the judge would force the settlement amount and also force
Behringer to pay all court fees and our legal costs. Behringer paid 800,000DM.
That amount was small compared to the benefit he
received, but at least the world knows that he was found guilty of patent
infringement and that he had to pay a significant, albeit insufficient, sum.
Behringer's attack on our products was not limited to the Aural Exciter. He tried to
copy our 612 gate. He could not get our VCA so he used
the VCA that we had used previously. We had to use a heat spreader on our
new VCA which was not necessary on the previous design. Behringer glued a
useless piece of metal on his VCA's showing that he either did not understand what
was going on in the unit, only making a poor copy of it, or
he simply tried to copy as exactly as possible. He also copied our manual-
page for page, illustration for illustration. The court immediately issued
an order for him to stop and reimbursed us for our legal fees.
I cannot comment directly on his raids on other companies' products, but based on
my experience I know that he used similar tactics. He not only
screws other manufacturers, but I have direct knowledge of him screwing a
supplier. He has set up distributors and, after the distributor has done all the hard
work, hired one individual from that distributor to set up his
own distribution.
The mistake I naively made was thinking that once people knew who this miscreant
was, they would never want to do business with him or buy his products. People
turn a blind eye when there is a possibility to make a quick buck or buy a product
which, on the surface looks like the original,
but is cheaper.
I have absolutely no illusions that this message will change anybody's business
methods or purchasing decisions. I just hope that those who are ethically challenged
do not complain too loudly if they ever get ripped off. I also hope that people who
do have some sense of right and wrong get
a little twinge whenever they see a Behringer product in a rack. Especially
now that they know the truth.
----------------------------------------
> > > > I'm not a real fan of Mackie stuff. It's good bang for the buck,
low end
> > stuff. But God Damn It! Behringer Ripped The PCB ART off!
<snip>
>
> Ignoble is more like it. Mr Mackie who is still looking for items
to
> copy from the 02R is one to talk.
Don't be a fool. Yamaha used proprietary DSP chips available to
noone else.
Mackie is using (many more) commercially available DSPs made
by Analog Devices.
Obviously, the instruction sets are totally different and Mackie's
DSP code is written from scratch. The user interface is completely
different,
and the automation is based on Mackie's pre-existing Ultramix
software. That software runs on an Intel processor, not the RISK
chip used by Yamaha.
The preamps are the same ones found in other Mackie boards.
You may like
'em or you may hate them, but they bear no resemblence to those
in the Yamaha product. There is some technology in the board
which Mackie did not develop in-house, but they got it fair and
square by licensing it from Apogee. I doubt that Uli Behringer
has ever licensed anything besides his car.
[Back to Behringer vs. Mackie]
> Have you seen the actual PC bds? Have
> you looked to find the complete boards duped? That means
every part has
> to be of same size. That means all mechanicals have to located
on the
> same spot. Izzat so?
Yup, almost exactly. There's one switch or something moved
slightly, otherwise
the holes in the sheet metal line up perfectly. So said Rick Chinn,
former
Mackoid, when queried on the subject some months ago. I don't
think he can
talk about it any more.
David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording
dr...@hach.com
---------------------------------------------------
Subject:
Re: Mackie Lawsuit
Date: 1998/02/11
Author: Irwin Shur <is...@apv.co.uk>
Posting History
And, for the Mackie side of the story:
Samson/Behringer Motion To Dismiss Denied.
Case to proceed to Trial.
Judge determines jurisdiction over key defendants in Mackie lawsuit.
WOODINVILLE, WA. - February 6, 1998 - Mackie Designs Inc.
(Nasdaq:MKIE) today made the following announcement: On Friday, January 30,
1998 the US District Court for the Western District of Washington ruled that
Mackie’s case against Behringer Spezielle Studio-Technick Gmbh, Ulrich Bernard
Behringer and Samson Technologies Corporation would proceed in Seattle. The
same court said that Mackie should bring its case against Sam Ash Music
Corporation, Richard Ash and Scott Goodman in a different court, which Mackie
intends to do.
The litigation, until now tied up in procedural matters, will now proceed to
substance.
In the open court hearing, Samson, Behringer and the other defendants
admitted that Mackie’s design patent was valid and that they had stopped selling
Mackie patented products after the lawsuit was filed. The court therefore removed
the patent claims from the lawsuit on the basis that it was no longer the subject of
dispute.
The complaint for trademark and trade dress infringement, dilution, copyright
infringement, breach of contract, unfair competition and joint venture will proceed as
claimed in the United States District Court for the Western District of Washington at
Seattle.
“Samson’s victory dance is premature,” stated Chief Operating Officer Roy
Wemyss, following review of their press release received yesterday. “We are
pleased with the Court’s decision to keep most of the lawsuit here and we look
forward to proving Mackie’s claims. This matter is in the hands of our lawyers while
we focus on our business.
“I am confident that our effort to protect our intellectual property rights will
prevail and that both our customers and the industry will benefit long-term. Mackie
has invested heavily in research and development over the years, and continues to
do so for the benefit of our customers. Evidence collected at NAMM in Los Angeles
last week confirms that the market appreciates true and real innovation, a testament
to Mackie’s focus on user friendly products.”
RJ...@aol.com wrote:
> In article <34E103...@sunshine.net>, pho...@sunshine.net wrote:
>
> > Has anyone heard anything lately on the outcome of the Mackie/Behringer
> > lawsuit if any?
> >
> > pho...@sunshine.net
>
>
>
> February 5, 1998
>
> JUDGE DISMISSES MACKIE CLAIMS
>
> Syosset, NY -- Samson Technologies Corp. CEO, Scott Goodman announced
> today that the US District Court for the Western District of Washington
> has dismissed the patent infringement claim brought by Mackie Designs,
> Inc. against Samson's supplier Behringer Spezielle Studio-Technik GmbH.
> The Judge's opinion also dismissed all of Mackie's claims against
> Goodman, Sam Ash Music Corporation and Sam Ash CEO, Richard Ash, and
threw
> out as unreliable the only evidence Mackie could muster to support its
> claim of intentional wrongdoing in the case.
> Although the litigation may still continue as to some other claims,
> Goodman noted, "This decision confirms everything we said at the outset of
> the case. We are now in the process of preparing with our legal counsel, a
> major countersuit against Mackie for among other things, slander, libel
> and defamation.
> "It is regrettable that so much time and energy has been wasted on what
> we've claimed from the beginning to be a spiteful and mean-spirited
> lawsuit."
--
Irwin Shur
ishu...@lnn.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:
Re: Is Behringer from Hell, really?
Date:
1999/06/10
Author:
Eleven Shadows <eleven...@santa-monica-ca.com>
Posting History
> My choice was based mainly on pricing and at the end of the day the
> Behringer gear seems to do a very good job for the money. Obviously I would
> perhaps not expect to see this kit in a top notch studio but value for money
> I think it is pretty good. At the end of the day, do the customers really
> care about the politics behind the product ?. If it does the job then
> that's fine by me. Hope that filters dome of the hot air from the
> conversation.
Tony, if I sell a song to a publisher that I ripped off from you, and this does the job,
should this be fine by me?
If I steal your car from your driveway and then sell it to someone else, should the
customers really care about the politics behind the product?
If value for money all that people should care about?
Hope this filters some of the hot air from the conversation.
--
Ken/Eleven Shadows
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Subject:
Re: Is Behringer from Hell, really?
Date:
1999/06/17
Author:
Chris G. <chri...@txdirect.net>
Posting History
>
> The amount of posts and time spent each
> week on Behringer is amazing. I suggest
> we all convene at a predetermined time
> once a week in a chat room. I have new
> found respect for the professional audio
> community - you all are very passionate
> about your beliefs .
>
> I think that the fella who likes the Chicago
> Cubs is in for yet another disappointing season despite the efforts of Sammy
> Sosa.
>
> As for reliability - I have sold thousands of
> Behringer units and have had returns running less than 2% failure rate . Most
> of
> the failures were related to shipping damage and not to any specific product.
> Behringer repair is backed up by Samson
> Technology and generally there is only a
> 5 day turn around . Problems should
> be addressed through Samson Customer
> Service .
>
> I enjoy all the spirited comments and if anyone has a legitimate technical
> problem
> or would like a biased comment on a
> particular piece - send me an E Mail.
> Please let me know if you all decide to
> open a chat room ....
>
> John Amstadter
> Behringer Rep Midwest
Hey neato! A Behringer rep who actually represents himself as one! I wish the
others did the same instead of auto posting everywhere or posting once and then
never to be seen under that name again and not to be found anywhere else on the
net except on Behringer threads on newsgroups. Well at least you seem to have
some scruples John. Get the word back to Behringer HQ to stop all the copying
crap because their reputation is becoming very bad over this. They can afford to
hire engineers who are better then that and who can design real quality designs for
them. If Behringer came clean and took off the market the clones and pointed out
which of their products are relatively original (as much as a particular audio design
can be) in their design, then I for one would buy from Behringer.
Thats my opinion anyways.
Chris G.
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Subject:
Re: BEHRINGER
Date:
1999/06/28
Author:
David J. Parsons <hiwa...@qnet.com>
Posting History
Daniel Fredrick Etter wrote:
>
> Frank Free - NNTP posting host 149.221.93.241
> Fred Opal - NNTP posting host 149.221.93.241
> Krambamboli - NNTP posting host 149.221.93.241
> Han Dee - NNTP posting host 149.221.93.201
These IP's emminate from "Rheinisch Bergische Presse-Data GmbH" in Duesseldorf,
Germany. It seems to be associated with a university and does not appear to come
from the Behringer company. However, that doesn't rule out them using another
account or another newserver. Behringer is located in Willich-Muenchheide. Not
sure exactly how close that is to Duesseldorf and I highly doubt that they would be
on any IP that we could trace back.
> V.Gates - NNTP posting host 171.215.80.64
This one is an AOL account and the server is not German in origin.
> Li G Tsai - NNTP posting host 10.0.2.35 (But these posts are forged
> to look like they're coming
> from OSU, when they come
> from www.remarq.com)
> V.Gates - NNTP posting host 152.207.195.176
AOL again.
> Frank Free - NNTP posting host 152.163.195.177
> Krambamboli - NNTP posting host 152.163.195.209
Once again, AOL.
In summary, this search is inconclusive to say the least with the origin obscured. It
is probable that most emminate from Germany but this does not prove that
Behringer is mounting a campaign.
DJP
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:
Re: BEHRINGER
Date:
1999/06/24
Author:
2DJVengac <itmight...@message.com>
Posting History
Ahhh, Mr Free, since you;re trying so painfully hard to dance here, let's make quite
sure of your limited and quite confined self-made dance space:
JV:
> you don=B4t agree that their intent is to market the cheapest gear rath=
er
> than any other qualtiy standard?
Frank Free wrote:
> I agree with their intent to produce gear that can be used by everyone.=
An interesting assumption since in general nobody but the lowest-end user who
doesn;t know how to yet judge well-designed and
decent-performing gear find the Behringer product useable. Considering that
Behringer's marketting seems to place them in the workign
professional audio market and most of that market fall soutside of your parameters it
leaves me at a loss as to what you could mean by your re-definition of the term
'everyone' besides the ubiquitous annoying refusal to admit the reality of the
Behringer's market situation.
Frank Free wrote:
> And: their tube series will be a step up to another market.
a 'step up' to WHAT market? there's very little out there that is much worse for the
intended user.
JV:> =
> you don=B4t agree that they've lied publicly with intent to mislead abo=
ut
> their past dealings and theft?
Frank Free wrote:
> I am not sure what=B4s right or wrong here, we=B4ve got different opini=
ons
> on this.
I apologise but your above statement makes no sense to me. =
Are you saying that you;re unsure as to whether repeatedly making exact blueprint
copies of circuits, circuit boards and manuals taken from other manufacturers as a
way of doing business has some 'positive' moral value? =
Are you saying that you're unsure about whether using common lame excuses and
annoying the courts by pointless delaying tactics is somehow a morally justifiable
way of stealing?
Are you saying that it's possible to have 'differing opinions' on well-documented,
court-mandated judgements and attendant supporting facts?
JV: =
> you don=B4t agree that they've managed to put themselves in the bottom =
of
> the level of business ethics and product respect by these choices?
Frank Free wrote:
> what business ethics are you talking about ? =
All of the ones that prompted you to be so embarassingly and
groundlessly defensive here right now. -YOU- brouiht this up, not me.
Frank Free wrote:
>You only refer to the APHEX
> case and to the MACKIE suit which isn=B4t over yet , right ?
No, I refer to the APHEX case which -is- over in which Behringer was found clearly
guilty of blatantly making exact copies of Mr Caesar's units and manuals, laughably
copied down to wrong parts and paint colors incompetantly transferred from
different versions, and the attendant court embarassments as to attempting to
stretch the case out for foolish reasons beyond even the court's generous
allowances, as well as the ongoing Mackie unpleasantness which is indeed still
ongoing as Mackie has not dropped the case as easily as Berhringer might have
hoped, and includes quite a collection of documented theft, use of Mackie product
remade with Behringer paint for trade display, theft of proprietary parts and designs
as well as intital production of copied Mackie circuit and layout. =
Frank Free wrote:
> Do you really think that Behringer is the only company that refers
> itself to other brands ? When I take a look into the market, I see so
> many brands with similiar products, are they all thieves ??
As so many many times here this poor sad attempt to take what Behringer does;
steal and copy complete layouts, designs and paperwork and call
-------------------------
Well thats enough for now. I hope a few people had the patience to read all that.
Chris G.
Paul Kerkeling
Erwin Timmerman <erw...@stack.nl> wrote:
>
> > I'm not arguing the relative merits of the two brands. I'm saying I
have no
> > proof. I'm saying there are no suits filed that I know of.
>
>
> http://www.deja.com/home_ps.shtml (Deja News - Power Search)
>
> Type in the box "Forum" rec.audio.pro
> Type in the box "Keywords" Behringer
>
> And you will find thousands of articles about this issue. Including
articles
> about lawsuits Mackie filed (and WON) etc etc. It went as far that
Mackie tech
> support received calls from Behringer customers because the manual
was copied to
> such an extent that they forgot to change the tech support addresses.
>
> It's a never ending discussion on rec.audio.pro. Why? Because people
> continuously say that they don't know of any proof, then other people
give it
> and one week later someone who didn't read the whole thread jumps in
and says
> there is no proof etc etc etc. So welcome to the club.
>
> I hope this discussion will not get the same proportion here as on
> rec.audio.pro...
>
> Erwin Timmerman
>
I´d love to get that manual
Luc Bagley
I've been watching the "stories" on Behringer and get the strong
impressions that this campaign must somehow be initiated by some real
behringer haters.
To be honest I find that this helps behringer more than it hurts them.
Just my opinion.
Let me contribute a little bit myself. I have been studying exciters,
enhancers when I graduated as sound engineer. This was many years ago
and among others I had asked behringer in Germany to send me
information on their exciters. I received from them a patent filing
where you can see Uli Behringer as the inventor. The patent application
number is DE3904425 A1 and for the international registration it is the
number WO 90/09727. I don't know whether you can get this an archive on
the net, but surely from the patent offices. Have fun and relax.
Luc Bagley
Chris G.
I'm not aware of how many models of exciters Behringer produced or
produces. It is possible that the patent you found may have been from
an earlier model. However if you are trying to say that Behringer did
not clone aural exciters from Aphex...well let's us just say that
apparently Aphex and the German courts did not agree with you and found
them guilty of copying Aphex's products. I'm not a hater of the
Behringer equipment itself. I used to own a Behringer Composer and
found it to be an acceptable and decent sounding compressor/limiter
(though not as good as an RNC compressor). However when a company
engages in seriously unethical practices where they make almost exact
clones of a competitors product then hell yes I'm going to yell far and
wide what they're doing especially when they've been caught several
times in the nasty practice of making outright lies on the internet and
posing as newbies asking questions (on the rec.audio.pro NG), and then
answering their own questions. Then I see that punk "roughbrook"
pulling that crap where it's pretty obvious that he's not your average
home studio owner as almost his entire studio is made up of Behringer
products. I don't know about you but I don't anyone who has a pro or
home studio with equipment almost entirely from one company. While it's
theoretically possible that someone who's totally nuts for Behringer
gear would do this I think it's highly unlikely.
Also no I do not work for any audio company or have any relations
whatsoever with any other then as a consumer of their products.
You can do a DejaNews search of all my posts and get a ton of
information about who I am, what I do, and what I'm like from reading my
posts on the various NG's I subscribe to.
So no I won't chill out and I'll continue to aggressively post against
Behringer every time I see them pull crap like that. If you notice there
is a Behringer rep that posts regularly on the rec.audio.pro NG. He is
however a pretty good guy and he clearly identifies himself as a
Behringer rep. I have no problem with that. I think Behringer needs to
take some examples from him. I've already asked him to send word to
Behringer to stop their internet fraud crap. I hope he does and that
they listen. No I'm not the damn net police, but sometimes when
something pisses you off enough you have to put your foot down and call
them like you see them.
Chris G.
Chris G.
>
> I've been watching the "stories" on Behringer and get the strong
> impressions that this campaign must somehow be initiated by some real
> behringer haters.
> To be honest I find that this helps behringer more than it hurts them.
> Just my opinion.
>
> Let me contribute a little bit myself. I have been studying exciters,
> enhancers when I graduated as sound engineer. This was many years ago
> and among others I had asked behringer in Germany to send me
> information on their exciters. I received from them a patent filing
> where you can see Uli Behringer as the inventor. The patent application
> number is DE3904425 A1 and for the international registration it is the
> number WO 90/09727. I don't know whether you can get this an archive on
> the net, but surely from the patent offices. Have fun and relax.
>
> Luc Bagley
>
> Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
I'm not aware of how many models of exciters Behringer produced or
Chris G.
PS: Uh...by the way Luc, are you new to Usenet or just got a new
internet provider there in Germany? I did a DejaNews powersearch as
well as an email people search with Yahoo to do a background check and
turned up zip on your email address and on just your name. (With
Behringer threads I do that as standard practice). The only thing I
found was that gmx.net is in Germany. While none of those things
necessarily mean anything (the varioius DejaNews Power searches didn't
pull up your post to the alt.music.4-trackNG for example), that doesn't
exactly give me a warm fuzzy feeling about you.
Luc Bagley
Dear Chris,
it is true that I have not posted anything on this news group before,
since I don't have as much time as you have. I work as a freelancing
sound engineer at the ZDF (a major broadcast station in Germany) and
have nothing to do with Behringer. Therefore I don't need to defend
anyone.
I was just surfing in the net and came across your postings where you
accused behringer of lying. You said ulli behringer has no patent
application about an exciter and this is obviously not true since I have
those applications and gave you the patent numbers. Everyone can get
them I guess.
So I felt I should correct this. Also I was wondering why people are
accusing others of lying when they do the same. Isn't that also
unethical? Don't get angry. It's not worth to shout at me since I will
not post anything anymore on this subject.
Luc
Erwin Timmerman
> Dear Chris,
> it is true that I have not posted anything on this news group before,
> since I don't have as much time as you have.
Insult no. 1
How on earth could you know how much time Chris has? Maybe he organizes his time
differently, and has experienced that by using this newsgroup he SAVES a lot of
time because it gives a wealth of info on the recording art, which he otherwise
would have gotten through more time consuming processes.
> I was just surfing in the net and came across your postings where you
> accused behringer of lying. You said ulli behringer has no patent
> application about an exciter and this is obviously not true since I have
> those applications and gave you the patent numbers. Everyone can get
> them I guess.
> So I felt I should correct this.
Granted. This however doesn't say anything about the other products or other
exciter from Behringer.
> Also I was wondering why people are
> accusing others of lying when they do the same. Isn't that also
> unethical?
Insult no. 2
When you would know Chris from the rest of his postings you'd see that he wasn't
intentionally lying. He was saying someting about a subject he didn't know
EVERYTHING about. Don't we all sometimes? And on the Behringer subject I think
that Chris has done a LOT more research than you, give him a break, will ya?
Visit his website, http://Indiemusicsite.com/ims/multi/index.html and see what a
nice addition he is to this newsgroup. Constantly trying to improve, constantly
trying to learn, and constantly trying to pass on this knowledge to others in
the process. He's a great member of this group (and no, I don't need anything
from him right now heheheh).
> Don't get angry. It's not worth to shout at me since I will
> not post anything anymore on this subject.
Oh great. First launch TWO insults and then close down the discussion. I must
agree with Chris, that doesn't produce a warm fuzzy feeling either.
Of course you were right to correct the patent thing, but there's no need to get
personal.
Erwin Timmerman
Da King B
>not clone aural exciters from Aphex...well let's us just say that
>apparently Aphex and the German courts did not agree with you and found
>them guilty of copying Aphex's products.
oh there is no doubt that they copy conpetitors products. this is not the
first time they have been caught. look at the original 8 bus mixer. it is
almost identicle to Mackie! BUT, when they do clone something, it is often as
good as, or better than the original for half the price or less.
I dont care if they clone. it's thier problem. as long as i get good gear and
a good price.
> that crap where it's pretty obvious that he's not your average
>home studio owner as almost his entire studio is made up of Behringer
>products. I don't know about you but I don't anyone who has a pro or
>home studio with equipment almost entirely from one company.
c'mon, think about it.. you can put together ONE HECK OF A PROJECT STUDIO
using predominantly behringer gear.
dak...@aol.com
MUSIC CITY DJ AND RECORDING
http://members.aol.com/dakingb/index.html
Da King B
>impressions that this campaign must somehow be initiated by some real
>behringer haters.
for what it's worth, i own several processors by behringer, and they are all
WELL worth the money.
Chris G.
I used to own a Behringer Composer compressor/limiter and was satisfied
with it's performance, however whether the Behringer products work well
or not is not the issue. This issue is the business ethics and Usenet
ethics (or lack of ethics I should say) of the Behringer corporation.
Please do a DejaNews search on this thread to see what all the fuss was
about so I don't have to continually repost the information. Or if you
prefer contact me via email and I can send you the information.
Chris G.
Chris G.
That's like saying, "Oh yeah I'll buy that stolen car because I'm
getting one hell of a good deal on it and it's the original owner's
problem if he had it stolen from him. That's not for me to worry about."
You could also compare that to someone stealing your copyrighted music
and using it for commercial use (making lots of money off of your hard
work). I don't think you would feel to happy about that.
So obviously you and I differ tremendously when it comes to our moral
beliefs. I'm extremely hard up on cash and usually have to sell stuff
to buy anything new or work hard to save up a little extra, yet as
tempting as it is, I still won't buy Behringer gear simply because I
don't think it's right to support a company that steals things and that
also poses as customers and fellow home studio owners on the Usenet in
order to promote their products and mislead newbies. If you like
supporting thieves and jerks go ahead, it's your money, but don't try to
justify you decision to the world.
Chris G.
Eleven Shadows
>
> > I dont care if they clone. it's thier problem. as long as i get good gear and
> > a good price.
It's comments like this that really make me wonder about the integrity of an
individual. What's scary is how many people actually have this attitude. If I have
to *explain* to anyone why this is bad, well, they're probably not going to
understand anyway...
--
Ken/Eleven Shadows, back from Morocco and Spain!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Irian Jaya" CD of atmospheric sensual percussion groove
music is out now ("Sangsara" coming any minute now!)
Morocco-Spain-Peru-Himalayas-Kashmir-Ladakh-India Photos!
http://www.theeleventhhour.com/elevenshadows
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~