sound effects anyone ?
Steven PATRICK
with the god awful type o negative sound track) and got to thinking
..what if someone went back and added creaking door sounds during the
castle scenes ...storm sounds while on the ship...galloping hoof beats
during the chase to get back to bremen,,,you get the picture .
Do you folks think it would detract from the original film or are we
better off with a well played ,well thought out musical score,or both ?
Just curious .
Steven
btw. here's what I think about all the "legalities" of taping videos .
It's manure,first they wouldn't make the equipment to do it with,and
second nobody is gonna tell me I can't make copies of stuff I
<emphasised on the I>
own for friends who want to return the "favor" with stuff they own,be it
tapes ,cd's,movies...ect...
just my 2 cents,you don't have to like it or agree with it,just don't
tell me about it .
visit my metallica and other artists bootleg trading page at:
http://members.tripod.com/~uncleduke
Dsikula
that we're perfectly able to accept the lack of spoken dialogue, but apparently
unable to go without sound effects (footsteps, gunshots, etc.)?
Personally, I prefer no sound effects, but time after time, there they are.
Puzzled,
Dave
===========================================================
"Those who like this sort of thing / --Dsi...@aol.com
will find this is the sort of thing /
they like." --Abraham Lincoln /
Arlene K. Witt
Consider me (and my roommate) kindred souls... When it comes to sound
effects I hit the mute button - they drive me crazy!
As far as I know, most silent films didn't have sound effects. They
seem to have come along when it became possible to supply a sound
track with the film.
Just give me William Perry.
Arlene
El Dorado
>
> I was watching my copy of Nosferatu the other day (and no not the one
> with the god awful type o negative sound track) and got to thinking
> ..what if someone went back and added creaking door sounds during the
> castle scenes ...storm sounds while on the ship...galloping hoof beats
> during the chase to get back to bremen,,,you get the picture .
> Do you folks think it would detract from the original film or are we
> better off with a well played ,well thought out musical score,or both ?
> Just curious .
>
> Steven
Can't speak to the "Nosferatu" situation, since I don't have that film,
but I can tell you that I have mixed several soundtracks onto my
personal collection of films. My instinct is that appropriate music is
essential, but when using sound effects, keep them to a minimum.
What I mean is that there is no real need to reproduce every single
ambient sound that we normally hear during an average day... birds
chirping, lawnmowers running, kids playing, etc. But when the film
reaches a critical point, where the sound is not only appropriate but
expected, that's when you've got to step in and produce an appropriate
sound effect.
For example: I mixed a sound track onto my copy of Chaplin's "Easy
Street" -- a great short film, by the way -- using mostly Chaplin's own
music, including melodies he didn't compose until several years after
"Easy Street" was filmed. But there is a "defining moment" in the film,
where The Little Tramp finally gets the upper hand on the villain (the
wonderful Eric Campbell), and from a second story window, he drops a
heavy iron stove right on the villain's head -- ker-Plop! That
obviously called for a sound effect, rather than some wimpy music
floating by on the sound track. Believe me, that stove landed with a
BANG!! And I humbly submit that my copy of that film is better for that
one thunderous effect.
In another film, there's a scene where two lovers are quarreling, and he
finally gets enough of her frivolous avoidance of responsibility. So he
puts his inamorata over his knee and spanks her, soundly. Obviously,
music alone wouldn't suffice in this situation, so I rehearsed the scene
until I got the rhythm of his spanks down pat,then added the sound
effects (by clapping my hands on cue, into a mike) to simulate the
sounds of the spanking. Honestly, it works wonderfully well!
If anyone has read this far, let me add that the studio archives are
doing a great disservice to the viewing (and buying) public by holding
onto their silent treasures until that distant day when there will be
the time and the will to create a new orchestral soundtrack for them.
There are geniuses around, such as Jon Mirsalis and Robert Israel, who
could create superb soundtracks at their trusty keyboards. Let them go
at it, and let those dusty old archive treasures finally see the light
of day! I've heard both Jon and Robert "live," and trust me, there are
few orchestral arrangements that could do better.
So, bring on the silent film classics, and let us see what we've been
missing for seventy years! The future and the past are fused into one,
and the time is NOW...!
(Hope that didn't sound too corny or too weird)
Dan Navarro
Steven PATRICK
should be kept at a minimum,and it should be well timed.
But I also agree that this would not work with all silent film.
you have to keep that "silent" magic in some films and let the score as
well as the actor's abilities to convey the story to set the tone.
Steven
and Dan,
You really should consider viewing Nosferatu,or any film by
Murnau or the german expressionists ,great stuff.
eric stott
musicians. Have you ever seen the consol of a theatre organ? You can
produce hoofbeats, crashed, thunder, and a variety of train and boat
whistles. Lloys specificaly requests that a factory whistle be used (to
great effect) during THE FRESHMAN.
Eric Stott
eric stott
>
> Well Dave,
>
> Consider me (and my roommate) kindred souls... When it comes to sound
> effects I hit the mute button - they drive me crazy!
>
> As far as I know, most silent films didn't have sound effects. They
> seem to have come along when it became possible to supply a sound
> track with the film.
>
> Just give me William Perry.
>
> Arlene
>
> On 2 Aug 1998 07:22:15 GMT, dsi...@aol.com (Dsikula) wrote:
>
> >This is a semiotics question I've been puzzled by for a long time. Why is it
> >that we're perfectly able to accept the lack of spoken dialogue, but apparently
> >unable to go without sound effects (footsteps, gunshots, etc.)?
> >
> >Personally, I prefer no sound effects, but time after time, there they are.
> >
> >Puzzled,
> >Dave
> >===========================================================
> >"Those who like this sort of thing / --Dsi...@aol.com
> >will find this is the sort of thing /
> >they like." --Abraham Lincoln /
Well, many of these films MIGHT have had sound effects- added by the
produce hoofbeats, crashes, thunder, and a variety of train and boat
whistles. Lloyd specificly requests that a factory whistle be used (to
FilmGene
seem to have come along when it became possible to supply a sound
track with the film. >>
Silent films didn't have music either, strictly speaking. However, music was
used almost always in any silent film showing. In addition, there were many
organs and sound machines which supplied sound effects for films in the silent
era. True, it was hardly as sweeping as today's foley effects, but you can be
sure that at many first-run silent film presentations, sound effects were just
as common as music.
Gene Stavis, School of Visual Arts - NYC
Alan and Lisa
will be shown at Seattle's beautiful Paramount Theatre with live
musical accompaniment this month. Email me for dates and times if
you're interested.
The Healy Family
it's part of an original track a la "Sunrise"). - Ray Healy
Steven PATRICK wrote:
> I was watching my copy of Nosferatu the other day (and no not the one
> with the god awful type o negative sound track) and got to thinking
> ..what if someone went back and added creaking door sounds during the
> castle scenes ...storm sounds while on the ship...galloping hoof beats
> during the chase to get back to bremen,,,you get the picture .
> Do you folks think it would detract from the original film or are we
> better off with a well played ,well thought out musical score,or both ?
> Just curious .
>
> Steven
>
> btw. here's what I think about all the "legalities" of taping videos .
> It's manure,first they wouldn't make the equipment to do it with,and
> second nobody is gonna tell me I can't make copies of stuff I
> <emphasised on the I>
> own for friends who want to return the "favor" with stuff they own,be it
> tapes ,cd's,movies...ect...
> just my 2 cents,you don't have to like it or agree with it,just don't
> tell me about it .
>
EckHarDT50
that in the Nickelodeons sound effects were more likely than music to accompany
the films. The early trade journals like Moving Picture World occasionally
comment on the "kids" commonly hired to do sound effects "overdoing it" at the
expense of the picture.
Joe Eckhardt
Robert M. Bratcher Jr.
>Steven PATRICK wrote:
>
>> I was watching my copy of Nosferatu the other day (and no not the one
>> with the god awful type o negative sound track) and got to thinking
>> ..what if someone went back and added creaking door sounds during the
>> castle scenes ...storm sounds while on the ship...galloping hoof beats
>> during the chase to get back to bremen,,,you get the picture .
>> Do you folks think it would detract from the original film or are we
>> better off with a well played ,well thought out musical score,or both ?
>> Just curious .
>>
>> Steven
I've got a Chaplin short on 16mm (One AM) thats got sound effects in
it done for TV release. Goes with the film just fine. Have heard some
sound effects in silent movies taped off AMC or TCM that didn't bother
me a bit. To each his own I guess...
--
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Robert M. Bratcher Jr.
brat...@pdq.net
Record collector, 8mm, super 8, 16 and 35mm Film collector.
Looking for prerecorded reel to reel tape albums.
I like old radio's too.
Collins, Hallicrafters, National & Hammarlund are my Favorites!
ChaneyFan
it's part of an original track a la "Sunrise"). -
But of course the original track of SUNRISE was loaded with sound effects.
They are an integral part of the soundtrack and the film.
I think good effects, if used in the proper place, can be very effective, and
bad sound effects can ruin a film. I hate slide whistles on pratfalls for
example.
One of the best scores I have ever heard in my life was Bob Vaughn playing for
THE FIRE BRIGADE at the Avenue Theater. In the fire sequences there were
sirens, explosions, whistles...everything but the kitchen sink, and it was
absolutely riveting. I also saw Bob play for the 1930 reissue print of BEN
HUR. They turned off the track and he accompanied on organ, but during the
chariot race, he continued playing and they turned up the soundtrack which had
no music but all the chariot race sounds. It too was extremely effective.
===============================
Jon Mirsalis
e-mail: Chan...@aol.com
Jon's Film Sites: http://members.aol.com/ChaneyFan/jonfilm.htm
Lon Chaney Home Page: http://members.aol.com/ChaneyFan
nospam
>
> I was watching my copy of Nosferatu the other day (and no not the one
> with the god awful type o negative sound track) and got to thinking
Wuh? Type O Negative doing the soundtrack? Well, that's . . .
interesting . . .
> ..what if someone went back and added creaking door sounds during the
> castle scenes ...storm sounds while on the ship...galloping hoof beats
> during the chase to get back to bremen,,,you get the picture .
> Do you folks think it would detract from the original film or are we
> better off with a well played ,well thought out musical score,or both ?
> Just curious .
>
> Steven
>
What I always find interesting is that during the days of silents, the
audience didn't think pictures at all needed anything else: they were
perfect just they way they were! Some might have thought sound for
musical and sound effects would have been nice, but not necessary. Like
Pandora's box, once sound entered the picture, then apparently nothing
was quite the same again. I guess it's a matter of personal
preference. I've heard some soundtracks that are absolutely terrible,
while the sound effects irritate me less. The picture itself will
_always_ be the thing, everything else seems to me to be an
afterthought.
> btw. here's what I think about all the "legalities" of taping videos .
> It's manure,first they wouldn't make the equipment to do it with,and
> second nobody is gonna tell me I can't make copies of stuff I
> <emphasised on the I>
> own for friends who want to return the "favor" with stuff they own,be it
> tapes ,cd's,movies...ect...
> just my 2 cents,you don't have to like it or agree with it,just don't
> tell me about it .
>
Bravo! Don't listen to others and feel free to voice your opinion. Not
only can two vcrs be hooked together but dual-vcrs are being legally
sold precisely for making copies. Go figure.
rod...@rddconsultants.com
dsi...@aol.com (Dsikula) wrote:
> This is a semiotics question I've been puzzled by for a long time. Why is it
> that we're perfectly able to accept the lack of spoken dialogue, but apparently
> unable to go without sound effects (footsteps, gunshots, etc.)?
>
> Personally, I prefer no sound effects, but time after time, there they are.
>
> Puzzled,
> Dave
There is the wonderful story of a silent film orchestra that had a sound
effects group in the percussion section. The villain in the film swings on a
rope, crashes through a window, and lands in front of the heroine, who slaps
him on the cheek. The fellow assigned to break the glass got his timing off,
and the villain swings through the window in silence, but when the heroine
slaps him, there is a loud sound of breaking glass.
I have almost always found it best to let the film speak for itself, and not
try to imitate effects on the screen. Timing a coconut shell to every hit in
a Chaplin film actually detracts from the comedy, especially if your timing
is not perfect. But occasionally there is a really big effect, crucial to the
plot, that you simply have to match--the bugle playing taps in Beau Geste,
the explosion at the end of Fatty and Mabel Adrift, the big gong in
Metropolis. I plan to do a live score for Barbed Wire someday, and I will
simply have to get a percussionist for the one-man-band scene; I can't
imagine just playing music over that.
Rodney Sauer
rod...@rddconsultants.com
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El Dorado
> What I always find interesting is that during the days of silents, the
> audience didn't think pictures at all needed anything else: they were
> perfect just they way they were! Some might have thought sound for
> musical and sound effects would have been nice, but not necessary.
The picture itself will
> _always_ be the thing, everything else seems to me to be an
> afterthought.
Hiya nospam... I'm very interested in your response, because from
reading a lot of books on silent film, I've gotten the impression that
movies were NEVER silent. No, they didn't have sound tracks on the
films themselves; but Walter Kerr has written that even the tiniest
neighborhood theater at least had an organist or pianist playing music
to accompany each movie. And the big-city odeons even had pit
orchestras.
Maybe it's a romantic idea that has grown up over the last 30 or so
years, but the notion we moderns have is that no movie was ever
exhibited in public without at least SOME musical accompaniment. Are
you saying this is not true? Elaborate, please.
And those of you (besides nospam) who are reading this, please let us
know the answer!
Cheers,
Dan Navarro
eric stott
theaters showed films unaccompanied- and that the audiences in these
cases talked continuously through the picture.
Eric Stott
Greta de Groat
anybody notice the weird sound effects in The Younger Generation? I can't
remember now if it was a part talkie, but i remember it had excessively
realistic sound effects like footsteps and crumpled paper noises that were
really disorienting-- i would be started when the lips moved and sound
didn't come out after hearing the person walk into the room! This was an
experiment that really didn't work-- though it was not as bad as The First
Auto, when an inter-title came on with "Bob" and a voice on the soundtrack
said "Bob." It was so bizarre and annoying! And they did it over and over!
greta de groat
EckHarDT50
>movies were NEVER silent. No, they didn't have sound tracks on the films
themselves; but Walter Kerr has written that even the tiniest neighborhood
theater at least had an organist or pianist playing music
>to accompany each movie. And the big-city odeons even had pit orchestras.
>exhibited in public without at least SOME musical accompaniment. Are
>you saying this is not true? Elaborate, please.
>
>And those of you (besides nospam) who are reading this, please let us
>know the answer!
>
>Cheers,
>Dan Navarro
The recent conference of DOMITOR, the international consortium of silent film
scholars,
was devoted entirely to the issue of early film "sound practises." Eventually
all the papers given will be posted on the DOMITOR website.
I was personaly quite surprised to find that it was extremely common in the
nickelodeons for there to be no music at all during the films. In many cases
the piano player played between the films, often with a singer performing with
song slides, to occupy the audience while the projectionist changed reels for
the next film.
Anyone interested in this subject will find the following article fascinating:
Rick Altman, "The Silence of the Silents," The Musical Quarter 80, no. 4
(winter, 1996).
AT the DOMITOR conference in D.C., Altman and his colleagues from the Univ. of
Iowa presented a program called the "Living Nickelodeon" in which they provided
several different versions of how an evening's entertainment might have worked
in those days, complete with sound effects, song slides, rude interruptions and
the piano player walking out to have a smoke while the film ran.
Joe Eckhardt
Robert Birchard
I remember jumping out of my seat when I heard that "Bob" coming
from the soundtrack and thinking that someone was calling my name!
The brief history of recorded music scors with sound effects is
interesting. Sound took the big city theaters by storm and in little
more than a year most silents were banished from the big theaters. By
November, 1928, it is rare to see a true silent in any New York or Los
Angeles first-run theater.
In an attempt to compete producers quickly revised their finished
silents to include sound of any sort. There were the so-called "goat
gland" movies in which talking sequences were added, but more often
music and effects tracks were the device that allowed producers to tout
that their pictures were "in sound."
Early in the cycle there were fairly elaborate attempts at sound
effects, but as the months passed and the commercial viability of these
silents with sound became less assured, the sound effects were cut back
as were the size of the orchestras playing for the recordings. It is
interesting to see the Junior Coghlan Pathe films "Marked Money" (1928)
and "Square Shoulders" (1929), for example. The earlier film has
extensive sound effects. The later film has only music.
--
Bob Birchard
bbir...@earthlink.net
http://www.mdle.com/ClassicFilms/Guest/birchard.htm