Was Hitchcock GAY?
dw
He obviously saw something in Anthony Perkins. . .to cast him in Psycho.
semtex
In article <$EKr.193$pi6.1...@news.inreach.com>, "dw"
<dale...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
> He obviously saw something in Anthony Perkins. . .to cast him in Psycho.
All right, relax.
Perkins gave a stunning performance in PSYCHO. A man's sexuality has
nothing on his talent. Cary Grant was gay too, and he was in a bunch of
Hitchcock pictures. Marlene Dietrich alledgedly had a couple of trysts. In
fact, there was and always will be a sizable minority in Hollywood that is
not heterosexual.
Dave
sem...@ix.netcom.com
Take out the nospam. to reply.
"I never found out much listening to myself." --Robert Mitchum
Michel Couzijn
On Sun, 04 Jan 1998 11:47:06 GMT, "dw" <dale...@nospam.hotmail.com>
wrote:
>He obviously saw something in Anthony Perkins. . .to cast him in Psycho.
Check your hidden premiss: 'Directors who cast homosexual actors are
homosexual themselves'.
If you are still in agreement with your premiss, check your brain.
Michel Couzijn
Amsterdam, The Netherlands
JMK
That's a really deep thought...open up your mind a little...who really cares
if he was gay or not?
dw wrote in message <$EKr.193$pi6.1...@news.inreach.com>...
Brian Steven Cady
Before we continue the knee-jerk response to this topic, do note that
gay characters pop up in Hitchcock's work from "Downhill" (1927) on
and with greater frequency than almost any other director of the
classic cinema. I think you'd have a hard time not concluding from
his work that Hitchcock had a fascination with all sexuality that
strayed from the norm.
And of course, "Psycho" was one of those movies. If Hitch had known
of Perkins' orientation, he may have thought that would add something
to the role. After all, what better choice than an actor who came
across as the all-American boy but who was actually hiding a secret
identity?
As for Hitchcock himself, Spoto's theory that he didn't have sex for
the last 40 or 50 years of his life (and how does he know that?) seems
like the most perverse thing of all.
-Brian in Atlanta
BillyBond
>From: "dw" <dale...@nospam.hotmail.com>
>He obviously saw something in Anthony Perkins. . .to cast him in Psycho.
Huh? What the bloody hell does THAT mean? What Hitchcock saw in Perkins was
the ideal actor -- or rather, HIS ideal actor -- for the role of Norman Bates.
What does that have to do with homosexuality?
Bill Warren
BillyBond
>From: sem...@nospam.ix.netcom.com (semtex)
>Cary Grant was gay too, and he was in a bunch of
>Hitchcock pictures.
Grant was not gay.
Bill Warren
semtex
In article <19980104204...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
bill...@aol.com (BillyBond) wrote:
> Grant was not gay.
Yes he is.
Clark-Nova
>>He obviously saw something in Anthony Perkins. . .to cast him in Psycho.
>
>Huh? What the bloody hell does THAT mean? What Hitchcock saw in Perkins
was
>the ideal actor -- or rather, HIS ideal actor -- for the role of Norman
Bates.
>What does that have to do with homosexuality?
Not to mention, Norman Bates was straight!
George Shelps
Dave, do you have source for your
statement that Cary Grant was gay, other than the Higham book?
Clay Waldrop, Jr.
dw wrote:
> He obviously saw something in Anthony Perkins. . .to cast him in Psycho.
He probably saw him IN something. My guess would be "Fear Strikes
Out," in which Perkins and Karl Malden gave outstanding performances.
Clay
dw
George Shelps wrote in message
<68pce5$ra2$1...@newsd-143.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
Dave, do you have source for your
statement that Cary Grant was gay, other than the Higham book?
Who the hell are you talking about? I am talking about Afred Hitchcock.
dw
Clark-Nova wrote in message <68pcl7$3...@argentina.earthlink.net>...
>
>Not to mention, Norman Bates was straight!
>
>
Norman Bates was straight? Didn't he die of AIDS due to a life of
promiscuity with the same sex - eventhough he was married?
dw
And when i mean Norman Bates - i mean the actor Anthony Perkins.
George Shelps
dw:
>Who the hell are you talking about?
>I am talking about Alfred Hitchcock.
The idea that Hitchcock was gay is preposterous and shouldn't even be
discussed seriously in this group.
semtex
In article <68pce5$ra2$1...@newsd-143.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, G-H...@webtv.net
(George Shelps) wrote:
> Dave, do you have source for your
> statement that Cary Grant was gay, other than the Higham book?
My "source" would be a book of Hollywood gossip I read a while back. I
don't remember the title of that book.
The rumor that Grant was gay has been floating around for decades. No, I
don't have proof, and no one else does either. A clandestine photograph
taken of Grant and Randolph Scott engaged in lovemaking would constitute
proof, wouldn't it? But considering the outward appearance of their
relationship, and Grant's seeming indifference and deft deflection of any
question to his sexuality, I think it's a reasonable assumption.
deh...@heronet.or.jp
Anthony Perkins died of AIDS, though I think there was no "even though he
was married" about it. He married late in life (after realizing he was
straight, and just had a mother fixation? Don't know the details of
this, have read no bios. Just odd to me that if he hadn't felt the need
to 'hide by marriage' in his youth, why do it in his 40's unless he was
in love with the woman?) and fathered two sons. Unfortunately he could
have picked up the AIDS virus many years before he actually died of it.
I've enjoyed most of Mr. Perkins roles throughout the years - what he did
he did well.
In article <lO%r.20$Lz6.2...@news.inreach.com>,
"dw" <dale...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrot
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
JDavidsont
>Clark-Nova wrote in message <68pcl7$3...@argentina.earthlink.net>...
>
>>Not to mention, Norman Bates was straight!
>
>Norman Bates was straight?
>Didn't he die of AIDS due to a life of promiscuity with the same sex -
>eventhough he was married?
No, Norman Bates burned down the family house after calling a radio talk show
and confessing his crimes. His fate is unknown. You do know the difference
between actors and the characters they portray, don't you???
"Man is not logical and his intellectual history is a record of mental
reserves and compromises. He hangs on to what he can in his old
beliefs even when he is compelled to surrender their logical basis."
-John Dewey
FilmGene
<<No, I
don't have proof, and no one else does either. A clandestine photograph
taken of Grant and Randolph Scott engaged in lovemaking would constitute
proof, wouldn't it? But considering the outward appearance of their
relationship, and Grant's seeming indifference and deft deflection of any
question to his sexuality, I think it's a reasonable assumption.>>
What a preposterous thread!
Not in bringing up the question of Hitchcock’s sexuality — that’s certainly
fair game — but on the grounds that have been advanced so far!
Anthony Perkin’s sexuality is evidently not in doubt. He did marry and have
children, but so did Oscar Wilde! There is also credible first-hand evidence
that his sexuality did not fundamentally change after his marriage.
As to Cary Grant’s sexuality, there is a great deal of ambiguity. His
relationship with Randolph Scott in the early thirties is based on gossip and a
series of publicity photos taken of them together when they shared a house as
young contract players. In the early thirties, this was absolutely no
indication of homosexuality, especially since the studio felt the exposure was
good for their careers. This is a clear case of taking 1990’s sexuality and
grafting it onto an entirely inappropriate era.
Furthermore, everyone here is avoiding the fact that bisexuality, especially
for world-class beauties, is entirely more likely than either exclusive
homosexuality or heterosexuality. Even experimentation is a more plausible
explanation than the seductive “deep, dark secret” explanation.
Finally, in dealing with artists, why is sexuality so damned important to
people? Hitchcock, Perkins and Grant were artists who explored the nature of
many kinds of people and human relationships. A narrow, bigoted view of
sexuality would simply hobble their efforts.
Gene Stavis, School of Visual Arts - NYC
KarenMarie
In article <lO%r.20$Lz6.2...@news.inreach.com>, dw
<dale...@nospam.hotmail.com> writes
>
>Clark-Nova wrote in message <68pcl7$3...@argentina.earthlink.net>...
>
>>
>>Not to mention, Norman Bates was straight!
>>
>>
>
>
>
>Norman Bates was straight? Didn't he die of AIDS due to a life of
>promiscuity with the same sex - eventhough he was married?
--
KarenMarie
Michael Gottuso
Totally agreed with every word Gene Stavis wrote. Its totally
ridiculous to reduce those world-class artists to one shallow level.
George Shelps
Well, iks, I didn't say that the topic wasn't interesting, just
preposterous, i.e. "so
contrary to nature, reason, or common sense as to be laughable, absurd,
ridiculous."
Believe me, if a homoerotic tendency in Hitchcock could have been found,
Donald Spoto would have found it!
Your example from "North by Northwest" is certainly valid. Leonard even
at one point speaks of his "women's intuition."
But so what? Please cite an example from Hitchcock's personal life, not
his films, that supports this assertion.
Regarding Cary Grant, I happened to have had the privilege to know the
late Allan Jones...and in his early Hollywood days, he and Grant shared
a residence for several months after Cary's break-up with Virginia
Cherrill. The cheerfully heterosexual Mr Jones razzed the whole notion
of Grant's supposed gayness.
Iksnamhcok
> Just odd to me that if he hadn't felt the need
>to 'hide by marriage' in his youth, why do it in his 40's unless he was
>in love with the woman?)
I'm sure Anthony Perkins loved his wife and children, but I understand that he
continued his gay life after marriage.
Iksnamhcok
> "Fear Strikes
>Out," in which Perkins and Karl Malden gave outstanding performances.
Lousy baseball player, though.
Iksnamhcok
>The idea that Hitchcock was gay is preposterous and shouldn't even be
>discussed seriously in this group.
Don't agree. Robin Wood, in "Hitchcock and Homophobia" in "Hitchcock's Films
Revisited,stakes a claim that Hitchcock may have been sexually attracted to
men, as well as to women. I'm not sure if I believe it, but it's a
serious-enough argument to take seriously
Another clue: I've heard that in the original script of North by Northwest,
there's a hint that Van Damm may have reciprocated Leonard's affections, that
Van Damm is, in fact, bisexual. (At one point in the script, Van Damm calls
Leonard "dear.") I believe that Hitchcock as often identified with his
"villains" as with his "heroes," and there's a strong suggestion that he
identified with Van Damm, who is, in a way, the "director" of the film's
proceedings. Note how Van Damm introduces himself to Thornhil (and to the
film's audience, directly facing the camera): "Good evening." Hitchcock's
signature line!
OK, so this is a stretch. But I think this IS a subject worth pursuing,
because the hints are strong enough (mainly, the very, very high number of
sexually deviant characters in Hitchcock's films).
I haven't yet found the book "Hitchcock and Homosexuality." Does it have
anything useful to say on this question?
Clay Waldrop, Jr.
> Clay Waldrop, Jr. wrote:
> > "Fear Strikes
> >Out," in which Perkins and Karl Malden gave outstanding performances.
Iksnamhcok wrote:
> Lousy baseball player, though.
That was because a) Perkins is obviously no athlete, b) he is
left-handed, whereas Jimmy Piersall was right-handed, and
c) Piersall was one of the best centerfielders in major league
history (even Chuck Connors, a pro player and star of "The
Rifleman," would have found that a daunting acting task).
Consequently, I cut him some slack here. Besides, Perkins
did do a great job portraying Piesall's driven, self-deprecating,
father-fearful-but-otherwise-fearless, near-psychotic nature.
Clay
dw
RaQuEl 7 wrote in message <19980106044...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
>>"dw" <dale...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>[ horseshit snipped ]
>
>Guys, I think "dw" enjoys giving everyone here the red ass. Either
that,
>or he's got some sort of weird or not so weird agenda. Don't waste your
time.
>
>Just a thought, no pressure.
>
>RaQuel
>
>
>*****************************************************************
>"How perfectly God damned delightful it all is, to be sure."
>- C. Crumb
>*****************************************************************
Actually, my "weird" agenda was to see the reactions...woo! look at em go!
Sorry, but i had to liven the place up a bit around here. it was getting
rather stale. And for my next feat...
Who was the most aesthetically pleasing actor/actress that you've seen in
Hitchcock's films? I'm torn between Grace Kelly in "Rear Window" and Ingrid
Bergman in "Notorious."
For the most interesting character? Maybe somebody can make some
suggestions. I can't decide - there's just too many.
dw
semtex
In article <19980106020...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
iksna...@aol.com (Iksnamhcok) wrote:
> Don't agree. Robin Wood, in "Hitchcock and Homophobia" in "Hitchcock's Films
> Revisited,stakes a claim that Hitchcock may have been sexually attracted to
> men, as well as to women.
Almost all men are attracted to other men, but it isn't always sexual. I
think a person's real sexuality can only be measured by how much he or she
obsesses over certain body parts of a gender. Too many people are wasting
time trying to classify sexuality.
> OK, so this is a stretch. But I think this IS a subject worth pursuing,
> because the hints are strong enough (mainly, the very, very high number of
> sexually deviant characters in Hitchcock's films).
Homosexuality, crossdressing, etc. are not deviant.
Michael Gottuso
Cross-dressing has nothing to do with homosexuality. There's plenty of
that in the "straight" world also. In our gay community, we have every
kind of folks - doctors, fathers, artists, firemen, lawyers, teachers,
filmmakers, cashiers, police officers, mothers, chefs, construction
workers, authors, and so on. I used to have a friend "Renee" and he was
straight. He loved dressing up in skirts, blouses, high heels, make
ups, etc and went out. And he always had a girlfriend. Sadly the
public always took her as a "queer" which she was not at all. So in
other words, if Norman Bates dresses up as his mother, then it'd be
totally lame to classify him as a gay person.
semtex
In article <68tk3f$crl$1...@newsd-151.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, mik...@webtv.net
(Michael Gottuso) wrote:
> Cross-dressing has nothing to do with homosexuality. There's plenty of
> that in the "straight" world also.
This is absolutely true. I used to know a transgendered woman who refered
to herself as "lesbian".
Thurston
> sem...@nospam.ix.netcom.com (semtex) writes:
> bill...@aol.com (BillyBond) wrote:
> > Grant was not gay.
> Yes he is.
>>>>
No, it was that Rock Hudson fellow you're thinking of...
in any event, he's dead.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
mack twamley
dw <dale...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in article
<$EKr.193$pi6.1...@news.inreach.com>...
> He obviously saw something in Anthony Perkins. . .to cast him in Psycho.
>
>
>
Quite wonderful reasoning. I guess that makes Mike Nichols gay for
directing The Birdcage, and of course every director who ever cast Rock
Hudson must have been gay as well. Now George Cukor was gay, but none of
his pictures seemed to feature gay actors or actresses, as I recall.
Hmmm.
Mitchell Leisen was gay, but again, I never saw an agenda in his films
either.
Iksnamhcok
> I'm torn between Grace Kelly in "Rear Window" and Ingrid
>Bergman in "Notorious."
Not a bad twosome to be torn between! (Sounds vaguely kinky.) Or how about
Grace Kelly in "To Catch a Thief" and Ingrid Bergman in "Spellbound." Oh, if
only all such choices were so tough.
Noctur...@yahoo.com
Cary Grant in North By Northwest, James Stewart in Rear Window - did his
character and Grace Kelly's live happily ever after?
In article <19980108020...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
John Hettwer
This kind of specious, innuendo-based argument holds a big appeal for
strained minds. This desperately reflexive idea uses it's premise AS it's
conclusion, neatly absolving the writer of the need for a troublesome
syllogism. (Gosh Barbie, logic is complicated....)
Well-adjusted gay folks don't need celebrities to join the club to make
their own lives acceptable to themselves and others.
Perhaps Hitchcock cast Perkins because the actor's agonized double-life
mirrors the similar situation of the protagonist. Duh! How's that for
'Why else?'
KarenMarie
Was Hicthcock gay?
Who cares? He was a genious!!!!!
--
KarenMarie
Super Goji
>Cary Grant was gay too, and he was in a bunch of
>Hitchcock pictures.
Are you sure? I've never heard that.
Peter D
raq...@aol.com (RaQuEl 7) wrote:
>Hoo! Well, that's because you don't hang out in the right places.
>
>Seriously, you should read ( don't buy it -- find a B & B bookstore and pick a
>comfortable spot. ) this book called Hollywood Gays, by Boze someone or
>other. It features a rather depressing interview with Grant, who appeared to
>be kind of out of it. Just as well. He interviews both Randolph Scott and
>Grant, and keeps needling them about what their relationship was. Neither
>gentleman would discuss it. And what do you know -- almost every single man he
>interviewed for the book flirted & seemed to want to bed ole Boze. I kept
>thinking, "Say, if *this* is what happens when you become a journalist,
>maybe I missed my calling." I mean, really.
>
>This doesn't prove Grant was gay, mind you. It's something people like to kick
>around. I don't know, and I don't care.
>
>RaQuel
>
>
RaQuel -- you are a riot. I love reading your postings. You need to
post here more often -- maybe we'd have something interesting to read
again. No offense to those who have written here lately but this
newsgroup has been a little arid lately.
Peter
BillyBond
>From: supe...@aol.com (Super Goji)
>>Cary Grant was gay too, and he was in a bunch of
>>Hitchcock pictures.
>
>Are you sure? I've never heard that.
This has been the subject of a lot of speculation by people who didn't know
Cary Grant personally. (I didnt, and I've speculated, too.) Those people say
he wasn't.
Bill Warren
BillyBond
>From: raq...@aol.com (RaQuEl 7)
>Seriously, you should read ( don't buy it -- find a B & B bookstore and pick
a
>comfortable spot. ) this book called Hollywood Gays, by Boze someone or
other.
Boze Hadleigh; he also has one called HOLLYWOOD LESBIANS. His interviews are
ALWAYS and ONLY with people who have died; he has never offered any evidence at
all for the reality of these interviews, such as a tape, and as a result many
people are extremely skeptical about his claims.
Bill Warren
Ken Mogg
SORRY, I ORIGINALLY POSTED THIS A WEEK AGO TO MY LOCAL NEWS SERVER, BUT
I SEE IT STILL HASN'T TURNED UP ON DEJA NEWS (AND WHO KNOWS WHERE ELSE)
...
FilmGene wrote:
>
> Furthermore, everyone here is avoiding the fact that bisexuality, especially
> for world-class beauties, is entirely more likely than either exclusive
> homosexuality or heterosexuality. Even experimentation is a more plausible
> explanation than the seductive “deep, dark secret” explanation.
>
> Finally, in dealing with artists, why is sexuality so damned important to
> people? Hitchcock, Perkins and Grant were artists who explored the nature of
> many kinds of people and human relationships. A narrow, bigoted view of
> sexuality would simply hobble their efforts.
>
Apropos Gene Stavis's excellent post (excerpt above):
Hitchcock is on record as having said: 'If it weren't for Alma, I'd have
gone gay.'
The evidence of Hitch's (everyone's?) potential bixexuality is there in
his films.
Basic reading: Theodore Price's 'Hitchcock and Homosexuality'.
Also, coming out (!) this month, is the book: 'Hitchcock's
Bi-Textuality' (I'm sure the pun is not unintended).
I've myself taken something like bisexuality for granted in analysing
the ambiguity of REAR WINDOW in the current 'MacGuffin'.
- Ken M.
RaQuEl 7
>bill...@aol.com (BillyBond) wrote:
>>From: raq...@aol.com (RaQuEl 7)
>
>>Seriously, you should read ( don't buy it -- find a B & B bookstore and
>pick
>a
>>comfortable spot. ) this book called Hollywood Gays, by Boze someone or
>other.
>
>Boze Hadleigh;
*That's* the guy!
> he also has one called HOLLYWOOD LESBIANS. His interviews are
>ALWAYS and ONLY with people who have died; he has never offered any evidence
>at
>all for the reality of these interviews, such as a tape, and as a result many
>people are extremely skeptical about his claims.
>
Come to think about it, you're right -- most or all of the subjects in that
book *were* dead.
. . .who was in the Holly wood lesbians book ( golly, they rated their *own*
volume ) ?
BillyBond
>From: raq...@aol.com (RaQuEl 7)
>. . .who was in the Holly wood lesbians book ( golly, they rated their *own*
>volume ) ?
The only one I remember for sure was Barbara Stanwyck -- but all of them were
dead, too. (However, none of them wanted to go to bed with Hadleigh; perhaps
they all said they wanted to be his mother.)
Bill Warren
George Shelps
Ken Mogg:
>I've myself taken something like
>bisexuality for granted in analysing
>the ambiguity of REAR WINDOW in
>the current 'Maguffin.'
"Something like bisexuality?"
>The evidence of Hitch's (everyone's?)
> potential bisexuality is evident
>in his films.
"Potential bisexuality?"
Ken, can you clarify?
RaQuEl 7
>RaQuel -- you are a riot. I love reading your postings. You need to
>post here more often -- maybe we'd have something interesting to read
>again. No offense to those who have written here lately but this
>newsgroup has been a little arid lately.
>
>Peter
Oh, gee, thanks, Peter. = )
Maybe the gang is busy?. . . .
BillyBond
>From: Ken Mogg <muf...@labyrinth.net.au>
>Hitchcock is on record as having said: 'If it weren't for Alma, I'd have gone
gay.'
On record where? I find this quote to be highly dubious; first, that he
allegedly used the word "gay," that he supposedly used the phrase "gone gay,"
and that he would admit to desires that were >illegal< for most of his life,
considering what he thought of the law.
Bill Warren
BillyBond
RaQuEl 7
> bill...@aol.com (BillyBond) wrote:
>>From: raq...@aol.com (RaQuEl 7)
>
>>. . .who was in the Holly wood lesbians book ( golly, they rated their *own*
>>volume ) ?
>
>The only one I remember for sure was Barbara Stanwyck -- but all of them were
>dead, too. (However, none of them wanted to go to bed with Hadleigh;
Well, considering Hadleigh is gay, wouldn't have been much point.
>perhaps
>they all said they wanted to be his mother.)
Whoa. *There's* a thought.
RaQuEl 7
RaQuEl 7
>Subject: Re: Was Hitchcock GAY?
>From: raq...@aol.com (RaQuEl 7)
>Date: Thu, Jan 15, 1998 04:29 EST
>Message-id: <19980115092...@ladder02.news.aol.com>
>
>>RaQuel -- you are a riot. I love reading your postings. You need to
>>post here more often -- maybe we'd have something interesting to read
>>again. No offense to those who have written here lately but this
>>newsgroup has been a little arid lately.
>>
>>Peter
>
>Oh, gee, thanks, Peter. = )
>
>Maybe the gang is busy?. . . .
>
>RaQuel
>
>
>*****************************************************************
>"How perfectly God damned delightful it all is, to be sure."
>- C. Crumb
>*****************************************************************
Ok, I give up. Not only is this newsreader spitting back up messages posted
_days_ ago, but I **emailed** the above to Peter.
What in the wide world is the matter.
RaQ
dw
I love it....the thread that never dies....hahahahaha.
dw
Iluv311too
who cares if he was gay or not?? he made the best movies...
BillyBond
>From: "dw" <oh...@you.dont>
>I love it....the thread that never dies....hahahahaha.
And the troll chuckles on. You're a waste of protein.
Bill Warren