Bolivia's 'Death Road' claims life of U.S. mountain biker
Mike Vandeman
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/04/21/news/Bolivia-US-Tourist-Death.php
LA PAZ, Bolivia: A U.S. tourist has been killed after losing control
of his mountain bike and plunging off a cliff while biking down
Bolivia's treacherous "Highway of Death," rescue officials said
Monday.
Firefighter Ramiro Torres told The Associated Press that Kenneth
Mitchell died Saturday afternoon after falling about 230 feet (70
meters).
Officials at the U.S. Embassy in La Paz confirmed the 56-year-old
Mitchell's death but declined to release his hometown.
Mitchell was riding with one of several tourist agencies that offer
guided trips down the mountain road, which is known for its
breathtaking views, hairpin turns and steep drops.
Bus accidents killed hundreds of Bolivians a year there until a new,
paved highway was opened in 2007.
--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!
Tom Sherman
> Evolution at work:
>
> http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/04/21/news/Bolivia-US-Tourist-Death.php
>
> LA PAZ, Bolivia: A U.S. tourist has been killed after losing control
> of his mountain bike and plunging off a cliff while biking down
> Bolivia's treacherous "Highway of Death," rescue officials said
> Monday.
>
> Firefighter Ramiro Torres told The Associated Press that Kenneth
> Mitchell died Saturday afternoon after falling about 230 feet (70
> meters).
>
> Officials at the U.S. Embassy in La Paz confirmed the 56-year-old
> Mitchell's death but declined to release his hometown.
>
> Mitchell was riding with one of several tourist agencies that offer
> guided trips down the mountain road, which is known for its
> breathtaking views, hairpin turns and steep drops.
>
> Bus accidents killed hundreds of Bolivians a year there until a new,
> paved highway was opened in 2007.
Dude, the guy was cycling on a ROAD. That is NOT mountain biking.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
magua...@gmail.com
wrote:
> Mike Vandeman blathered:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Evolution at work:
>
>
> > LA PAZ, Bolivia: A U.S. tourist has been killed after losing control
> > of his mountain bike and plunging off a cliff while biking down
> > Bolivia's treacherous "Highway of Death," rescue officials said
> > Monday.
>
> > Firefighter Ramiro Torres told The Associated Press that Kenneth
> > Mitchell died Saturday afternoon after falling about 230 feet (70
> > meters).
>
> > Officials at the U.S. Embassy in La Paz confirmed the 56-year-old
> > Mitchell's death but declined to release his hometown.
>
> > Mitchell was riding with one of several tourist agencies that offer
> > guided trips down the mountain road, which is known for its
> > breathtaking views, hairpin turns and steep drops.
>
> > Bus accidents killed hundreds of Bolivians a year there until a new,
> > paved highway was opened in 2007.
>
> Dude, the guy was cycling on a ROAD. That is NOT mountain biking.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
>
> - Show quoted text -
It doesn't matter to the Lying Chef...I mean Iron chef. He is an
idiot. He's only out to promote the injury to all bikers and he can't
deny this. recent quote. "break a leg" to a cyclist on the forums. Yet
he will deny he said this as usual. A person that dodges all questions
is truly a dishonest person such as he.
The Moderator
"Mike Vandeman" <mjv...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:3on214pem9m4ng3u5...@4ax.com...
> Evolution at work:
>
>
> LA PAZ, Bolivia: A U.S. tourist has been killed after losing control
> of his mountain bike and plunging off a cliff while biking down
> Bolivia's treacherous "Highway of Death," rescue officials said
> Monday.
Learn to embrace danger. Do not hide from it.
http://www.brightcove.tv/title.jsp?title=1438490562
Bruce Jensen
wrote:
> Mike Vandeman blathered:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Evolution at work:
>
>
> > LA PAZ, Bolivia: A U.S. tourist has been killed after losing control
> > of his mountain bike and plunging off a cliff while biking down
> > Bolivia's treacherous "Highway of Death," rescue officials said
> > Monday.
>
> > Firefighter Ramiro Torres told The Associated Press that Kenneth
> > Mitchell died Saturday afternoon after falling about 230 feet (70
> > meters).
>
> > Officials at the U.S. Embassy in La Paz confirmed the 56-year-old
> > Mitchell's death but declined to release his hometown.
>
> > Mitchell was riding with one of several tourist agencies that offer
> > guided trips down the mountain road, which is known for its
> > breathtaking views, hairpin turns and steep drops.
>
> > Bus accidents killed hundreds of Bolivians a year there until a new,
> > paved highway was opened in 2007.
>
> Dude, the guy was cycling on a ROAD. That is NOT mountain biking.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
Exactly. I'm with you on the small-trail riding, Mike, but
c'mon...this is a motor vehicle roadway. Motor vehicles plunge to
their deaths here too.
Bruce Jensen
Jeff Strickland
You assert for years on end that mountain bikes should only be ridden on
pavement, then post shit drivel about a guy riding on pavement being killed.
You are a moron.
Ronnie Guthrie
"Mike Vandeman" = "A Damn Vehicle Man"
:O)
"Mike Vandeman" <mjv...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:3on214pem9m4ng3u5...@4ax.com...
rhop...@loainc.com
http://www.evtv1.com/player.aspx?itemnum=5868
Mike, noticed you did not respond. Take a look at above link, looks like a
road to me, clearly not a mt. bike trail.
rick
Mike Vandeman
He was riding a mountain bike on a mountain road. What part of
"mountain biking" don't you understand?
Mike Vandeman
So you think riding a mountain bike on a mountain road has nothing to
do with mountain biking? You are weird.
>Bruce Jensen
Mike Vandeman
He was riding a mountain bike on a mountain road. Sounds like mountain
biking to me.
>rick
rhop...@loainc.com
route just as the Boliva Highway is, which btw it is a major route for
vehicular trafic in that country) and die than I died mt. biking. If you
answer yes, than you are dumber than I think. because by that example as
long as I ride a road bike on mt. biking trails, then I am road riding,
right?
Rick
Tom Sherman
> On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 23:53:44 -0500, Tom Sherman
> <sunset...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Mike Vandeman blathered:
>>> Evolution at work:
>>>
>>> http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/04/21/news/Bolivia-US-Tourist-Death.php
>>>
>>> LA PAZ, Bolivia: A U.S. tourist has been killed after losing control
>>> of his mountain bike and plunging off a cliff while biking down
>>> Bolivia's treacherous "Highway of Death," rescue officials said
>>> Monday.
>>>
>>> Firefighter Ramiro Torres told The Associated Press that Kenneth
>>> Mitchell died Saturday afternoon after falling about 230 feet (70
>>> meters).
>>>
>>> Officials at the U.S. Embassy in La Paz confirmed the 56-year-old
>>> Mitchell's death but declined to release his hometown.
>>>
>>> Mitchell was riding with one of several tourist agencies that offer
>>> guided trips down the mountain road, which is known for its
>>> breathtaking views, hairpin turns and steep drops.
>>>
>>> Bus accidents killed hundreds of Bolivians a year there until a new,
>>> paved highway was opened in 2007.
>> Dude, the guy was cycling on a ROAD. That is NOT mountain biking.
>
> He was riding a mountain bike on a mountain road. What part of
> "mountain biking" don't you understand?
Gee Mikey, riding a bicycle on an existing road used by motorized
passenger vehicles and cargo trucks does a lot of additional damage to
the environment, right? I suppose riding a touring bicycle would fine
however, since bicycles sold as "mountain bikes" are inherently evil,
even if ridden exclusively on improved roads with street tread tires.
[End sarcasm]
Unlike Mikey, I actually own a bicycle with knobby tires (Trek 6000) and
have ridden it (barney like, but that is beside the point) on
single-track. But then, Mikey lets his obsession with "mountain bikes"
get in way of any kind of logical thought process.
Siskuwihane
> On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 23:53:44 -0500, Tom Sherman
>
>
>
>
>
> <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
> >Mike Vandeman blathered:
> >> Evolution at work:
>
>
> >> LA PAZ, Bolivia: A U.S. tourist has been killed after losing control
> >> of his mountain bike and plunging off a cliff while biking down
> >> Bolivia's treacherous "Highway of Death," rescue officials said
> >> Monday.
>
> >> Firefighter Ramiro Torres told The Associated Press that Kenneth
> >> Mitchell died Saturday afternoon after falling about 230 feet (70
> >> meters).
>
> >> Officials at the U.S. Embassy in La Paz confirmed the 56-year-old
> >> Mitchell's death but declined to release his hometown.
>
> >> Mitchell was riding with one of several tourist agencies that offer
> >> guided trips down the mountain road, which is known for its
> >> breathtaking views, hairpin turns and steep drops.
>
> >> Bus accidents killed hundreds of Bolivians a year there until a new,
> >> paved highway was opened in 2007.
>
> >Dude, the guy was cycling on a ROAD. That is NOT mountain biking.
>
> He was riding a mountain bike on a mountain road. What part of
> "mountain biking" don't you understand?
Keep in mind Mike claims he wrote a book on mountain biking, he won't
tell us the title of the book, but it probably has trails in it with
names like I-80, US1, Route 322 and Main Street.
Ronnie Guthrie
"Mike Vandeman" <mjv...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:7ee51413vncfdam3h...@4ax.com...
So what damage to the environment was he doing by riding a bike (mountain
bike or whatever) on a road designed for motor vehicles? Would you have
been happier if the unfortunate Mr Mitchell had fallen to his death whilst
hiking?
Get yourself a life and accept that the great outdoors is there for everyone
to enjoy, whether that be on foot or (self powered) two wheels.
Siskuwihane
wrote:
> "Mike Vandeman" <mjva...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
The only time Mike gets outdoors is when he's walking from long-term
parking to the terminal.
Mike Vandeman
Obviously, he rode off-road. DUH!
Would you have
>been happier if the unfortunate Mr Mitchell had fallen to his death whilst
>hiking?
>Get yourself a life and accept that the great outdoors is there for everyone
>to enjoy, whether that be on foot or (self powered) two wheels.
It's there for everyone to enjoy, but only in an appropriate
(low-impact) way. There is no reason for allowing bicycles off-road,
where they destroy wildlife and wildlife habitat -- something I
predict that you aren't honest enough to admit, but something that is
obvious to everyone else.
Mike Vandeman
We psychologists call that "Projection". Obviously, you have more
familiarity with parking than I do, since I don't own a car and since
you work for an airline. DUH!
Mike Vandeman
>So if I ride my mt. bike on Sonora Pass in the Sierra (a motor vechicle
>route just as the Boliva Highway is, which btw it is a major route for
>vehicular trafic in that country) and die than I died mt. biking.
Yes, and the sooner, the better.
Mike Vandeman
<sunset...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
Yes, if you run over animals or plants or people. Mitchell, of
course, rode off-road, as you do.
I suppose riding a touring bicycle would fine
>however, since bicycles sold as "mountain bikes" are inherently evil,
>even if ridden exclusively on improved roads with street tread tires.
>[End sarcasm]
>
>Unlike Mikey, I actually own a bicycle with knobby tires (Trek 6000) and
>have ridden it (barney like, but that is beside the point) on
>single-track. But then, Mikey lets his obsession with "mountain bikes"
>get in way of any kind of logical thought process.
--
Tom Sherman
cyclists. [end sarcasm]
Tom Sherman
ROTFLMAO!
Jeff Strickland
"Mike Vandeman" <mjv...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:7ee51413vncfdam3h...@4ax.com...
>>
>>Exactly. I'm with you on the small-trail riding, Mike, but
>>c'mon...this is a motor vehicle roadway. Motor vehicles plunge to
>>their deaths here too.
>
> So you think riding a mountain bike on a mountain road has nothing to
> do with mountain biking? You are weird.
>
You've sunk to a new low, Mike. You advocate that bicycles belong on
pavement, then find an obscure story of a mountain bike being operated on
pavement and blame the mountain bike for the death of the rider. And, you
just dissed a guy that agrees with you that bikes do not belong on the
trail. Good job!
marika
"Tom Sherman" <sunset...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fuung2$fl1$1...@registered.motzarella.org...
>
> Unlike Mikey, I actually own a bicycle with knobby tires (Trek 6000) and
> have ridden it (barney like, but that is beside the point) on
> single-track. But then, Mikey lets his obsession with "mountain bikes" get
> in way of any kind of logical thought process.
>
and you wonder why people get divorced
mk5000
" It's a funny thing about being in love. Sometimes it's easier to tell when
you are than when you aren't. "--Daisy Kenyon:
Ronnie Guthrie
"Mike Vandeman" <mjv...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:cic614h4e7n0ibl7f...@4ax.com...
I think not. Check your facts first Mr Vandeman. He was riding on a "road"
(http://tinyurl.com/2l84y6)
>
> Would you have
>>been happier if the unfortunate Mr Mitchell had fallen to his death whilst
>>hiking?
>>Get yourself a life and accept that the great outdoors is there for
>>everyone
>>to enjoy, whether that be on foot or (self powered) two wheels.
>
> It's there for everyone to enjoy, but only in an appropriate
> (low-impact) way. There is no reason for allowing bicycles off-road,
> where they destroy wildlife and wildlife habitat -- something I
> predict that you aren't honest enough to admit, but something that is
> obvious to everyone else.
>
I agree, we are all responsible for ensuring that we minimise the impact we
all have on wildlife and it's natural habitat, which is why I only ride
'off-road' on designated trails built especially for mountain bikers. For
this privilege I pay an annual membership (at my local trail) or an entry
fee for trails in other areas which is used to support sustainable forestry
and environmental education (http://www.friendsofdalbyforest.org.uk)
As it happens, I've just returned from a most enjoyable ride in Dalby
Forest, where I did see numerous examples of wildlife in their natural
habitat (including a couple of deer).
I like mountain biking, you obviously don't. Stop assuming all
mountain-bikers have no disregard for wildlife and their habitat.
Siskuwihane
Stop lying Michael, I do not work for an airline. Once again you have
to lie.
Mike Vandeman
Every one of your posts is a lie, since you don't use your real name.
Mike Vandeman
<ronnieguthrie@h_tmail.com> wrote:
You guys are INCREDIBLY stupid! How do you think he ended up off-road?
He rode off-road! DUH!
>> Would you have
>>>been happier if the unfortunate Mr Mitchell had fallen to his death whilst
>>>hiking?
>>>Get yourself a life and accept that the great outdoors is there for
>>>everyone
>>>to enjoy, whether that be on foot or (self powered) two wheels.
>>
>> It's there for everyone to enjoy, but only in an appropriate
>> (low-impact) way. There is no reason for allowing bicycles off-road,
>> where they destroy wildlife and wildlife habitat -- something I
>> predict that you aren't honest enough to admit, but something that is
>> obvious to everyone else.
>>
>I agree, we are all responsible for ensuring that we minimise the impact we
>all have on wildlife and it's natural habitat, which is why I only ride
>'off-road' on designated trails built especially for mountain bikers.
That doesn't make it okay! You still accelerate erosion, create
V-shaped ruts, kill small animals & plants on & next to the trail, &
drive wildlife & other trail users out of the parks. There's no such
thing as sustainable mountain biking.
For
>this privilege I pay an annual membership (at my local trail) or an entry
>fee for trails in other areas which is used to support sustainable forestry
>and environmental education (http://www.friendsofdalbyforest.org.uk)
>As it happens, I've just returned from a most enjoyable ride in Dalby
>Forest, where I did see numerous examples of wildlife in their natural
>habitat (including a couple of deer).
>I like mountain biking, you obviously don't. Stop assuming all
>mountain-bikers have no disregard for wildlife and their habitat.
It's true! People who care about wildlife don't run over them with a
mountain bike! That's as plain as the nose on your face.
rhop...@loainc.com
bike on the trail and I am rode riding, nice logic dipwit.
If you die while having sex wearing hiking boots did you die as a hiker, or
in your case maybe wearing a sheep outfit while having sex you actually died
as a sheep.
Keep the entertainment going, I use to think you were simply a troll and
this was your way to get off since you probably could never get a woman to
sleep with you, but I finally realized you are simply as stupid as you
sound.
Tom Sherman
>>>>>> c'mon...this is a motor vehicle roadway. Motor vehicles plunge to
>>>>>> their deaths here too.
>>>>> So you think riding a mountain bike on a mountain road has nothing to
>>>>> do with mountain biking? You are weird.
>>>> So what damage to the environment was he doing by riding a bike (mountain
>>>> bike or whatever) on a road designed for motor vehicles?
>>> Obviously, he rode off-road. DUH!
>> I think not. Check your facts first Mr Vandeman. He was riding on a "road"
>> (http://tinyurl.com/2l84y6)
>
> You guys are INCREDIBLY stupid! How do you think he ended up off-road?
> He rode off-road! DUH!
No dude, the deceased was out of control once he left the road. Whether
or not he remained in physical contact with the bicycle after going over
the cliff, he was not riding the bicycle at that point. Furthermore, the
deceased was not intending to leave the road unless he was planning to
kill himself.
What happened is not riding off road. DUH!
Siskuwihane
> On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 18:26:03 -0700 (PDT), Siskuwihane
>
>
>
>
>
Stop lying Michael J. Vandeman. You were too lazy to follow your own
advice and do your own research.
Now you lie and say I work for an airline. Your credibilty is as dead
as your cat that you let die.
magua...@gmail.com
you asshole! Take a flyover some time Mr friendly skies!
magua...@gmail.com
> On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 05:31:54 GMT, rhopk...@loainc.com wrote:
> >So if I ride my mt. bike on Sonora Pass in the Sierra (a motor vechicle
> >route just as the Boliva Highway is, which btw it is a major route for
> >vehicular trafic in that country) and die than I died mt. biking.
>
> Yes, and the sooner, the better.
So Mike wishes hard upon another cycist yet will later claim he has
never done so as he has claimed in the past he hasn't nor would.
Another false statement.
>>We psychologists call that "Projection". Obviously, you have more
familiarity with parking than I do, since I don't own a car and since
you work for an airline. DUH!
What the hell Mike. "WE PSYCHOLOGIST"...you are now stating you are a
psychologist? I suppose you wrote a book on that also. you aren't a
psychologist you freak...you have a degree in dietary services
basically.
so let's put your real studies to test! How many cups of sugar do I
use in this apple pie I am making?
magua...@gmail.com
Actually you're the one that is tarded. The roads are narrow...no room
for error. blind corners, etc. this happens all the time. You're just
an idiot. Like I said...take a flyover of the area next time.
marika
>
> Every one of your posts is a lie, since you don't use your real name.
when did they write the law(s) that require using real names and or telling
the truth on usenet.
"It must be true I heard it on the internet"
mk5000
Haley James: Remembering what?
Nathan Scott: Your hair. You wore it that way the first day you tutored me.
Haley James: You remember how I wore my hair the first day I tutored you?
Nathan Scott: Of course.
Haley James: What else do you remember?
Nathan Scott: I remember the ugly-ass poncho that you wore. --One Tree Hill
Tom Sherman
>
> "Mike Vandeman" <mjv...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:7l381494i6njtln3d...@4ax.com...
>
>
>>
>> Every one of your posts is a lie, since you don't use your real name.
>
> when did they write the law(s) that require using real names and or
> telling the truth on usenet.
>
puppet becomes discredited, it can be tossed for a new one.
Siskuwihane
wrote:
> marika wrote:
>
> > "Mike Vandeman" <mjva...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> >news:7l381494i6njtln3d...@4ax.com...
>
> >> Every one of your posts is a lie, since you don't use your real name.
>
> > when did they write the law(s) that require using real names and or
> > telling the truth on usenet.
>
> It all goes to accountability and therefore credibility - if a sock
> puppet becomes discredited, it can be tossed for a new one.
Mike uses his real name and has ZERO credibilty.
Jeff Strickland
"Tom Sherman" <sunset...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
> marika wrote:
>>
>> "Mike Vandeman" <mjv...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
>> news:7l381494i6njtln3d...@4ax.com...
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Every one of your posts is a lie, since you don't use your real name.
>>
>> when did they write the law(s) that require using real names and or
>> telling the truth on usenet.
>>
> It all goes to accountability and therefore credibility - if a sock puppet
> becomes discredited, it can be tossed for a new one.
>
> --
Mike uses his real name, and still lies. Can we toss him out for new one?
Tom Sherman
The scary part is that Mikey V. probably believes on what he is posting,
unlike some anonymous trolls whose intent is to stir things up.
Siskuwihane
wrote:
> Mike Vandeman blathered:
>
>
>
>
>> >> "Mike Vandeman" <mjva...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> >>news:cic614h4e7n0ibl7f...@4ax.com...
> >>> On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 13:09:25 +0100, "Ronnie Guthrie"
> >>> <ronnieguthrie@h_tmail.com> wrote:
>
The report I read said
"On Monday, Kenneth Mitchell, 56, of Fullerton, California, died when
he tumbled from his bicycle and fell over a cliff along the highway."
That would make him a hiker since he wasn't on his bike at the time of
going over the cliff.
Another cyclist was killed (same article) on the paved section on
Thursday, so much for the health benefits of road biking.
Siskuwihane
wrote:
> Siskuwihane wrote:
> > On Apr 27, 12:34 pm, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> >> marika wrote:
>
> >>> "Mike Vandeman" <mjva...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> >>>news:7l381494i6njtln3d...@4ax.com...
> >>>> Every one of your posts is a lie, since you don't use your real name.
> >>> when did they write the law(s) that require using real names and or
> >>> telling the truth on usenet.
> >> It all goes to accountability and therefore credibility - if a sock
> >> puppet becomes discredited, it can be tossed for a new one.
>
> > Mike uses his real name and has ZERO credibilty.
>
> The scary part is that Mikey V. probably believes on what he is posting,
> unlike some anonymous trolls whose intent is to stir things up.
Not sure if that's directed towards me or not, my real name and where
I live is posted elsewhere. My nic doesn't make my opinion,
experiences or knowledge any less valid than someone who uses their
real name on their account.
Jeff Strickland
"Tom Sherman" <sunset...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
> Siskuwihane wrote:
>> On Apr 27, 12:34 pm, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>> marika wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Mike Vandeman" <mjva...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:7l381494i6njtln3d...@4ax.com...
>>>>> Every one of your posts is a lie, since you don't use your real name.
>>>> when did they write the law(s) that require using real names and or
>>>> telling the truth on usenet.
>>> It all goes to accountability and therefore credibility - if a sock
>>> puppet becomes discredited, it can be tossed for a new one.
>>
>>
>> Mike uses his real name and has ZERO credibilty.
>
> The scary part is that Mikey V. probably believes on what he is posting,
> unlike some anonymous trolls whose intent is to stir things up.
>
That's certainly true. Mike believes in his propoganda, and is convinced he
is doing good.
The irony is, if one assumes he is 100% correct and we start listening to
him tomorrow at 0600 hrs, and keep it up for the remainder of all eternity,
the best we can hop for is the preservation of 0.004% of the environment. (I
might have the decimal point in the wrong place, and then Mike will save
0.0004% of the environment.)
Saving habitat is a noble goal, but saving the equivelent of a tennis court
in a square mile is not much of an accomplishment.
Mike is on a misguided mission to do nothing. He has his heart in the right
place, but his head is all fucked up. This is not news to him, indeed I
fully expect a fresh round of "DUH!" and "LIAR". But, I can do the math that
comes to the 0.0004%, if anybody cares.
Clearly the habitat needs guys like Mike, but his agenda is all messed up.
Sad really. Environmental isues are macro, Mike is a micro kind of guy.
That's his problem.
magua...@gmail.com
>
> The scary part is that Mikey V. probably believes on what he is posting,
> unlike some anonymous trolls whose intent is to stir things up.
>
It's a narcissistic thing with Mike. He likes seeing the name up there
whether for fiction or non-fiction...he loves the attention. the full
focus on him whether it be his multiple errors he makes or foolish
statements of truths and non-truths. Everything just mends together
anymore with his posts. So many self claims made by him with nothing
to back it up. and if you come forward and post your own name...he
will try and say you are still lying so no matter how you go with him,
he's a attention whore. As long as he can stir the focus back to him
somehow.
Mike Vandeman
So you admit that he rode the boke off of the road. QED
Whether
>or not he remained in physical contact with the bicycle after going over
>the cliff, he was not riding the bicycle at that point. Furthermore, the
>deceased was not intending to leave the road unless he was planning to
>kill himself.
>
>What happened is not riding off road. DUH!
Your stupidity sets a new record! You just admitted that he rode his
boke off of the road. DUH!
Mike Vandeman
That has nothing to do with the fact that he rode the bike off of the
road.
Mike Vandeman
If anyone can understand what you just said, please let us know. It's
not any English that I recognize.
Mike Vandeman
So you are afraid to admit that he rode his bike off of a road?
Mike Vandeman
wrote:
>
>"Mike Vandeman" <mjv...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
>news:7l381494i6njtln3d...@4ax.com...
>
>
>>
>> Every one of your posts is a lie, since you don't use your real name.
>
>when did they write the law(s) that require using real names and or telling
>the truth on usenet.
You are allowed to lie on the internet. That's what he did. But that
makes him a liar.
Tom Sherman
Nowhere did I write the deceased was RIDING when he left the road. In
fact I wrote just the opposite (see below). Try reading what is written
some time.
> Whether
>> or not he remained in physical contact with the bicycle after going over
>> the cliff, he was not riding the bicycle at that point. Furthermore, the
>> deceased was not intending to leave the road unless he was planning to
>> kill himself.
>>
>> What happened is not riding off road. DUH!
>
> Your stupidity sets a new record! You just admitted that he rode his
> boke off of the road. DUH!
Dude, learn to read. Sheesh!
Tom Sherman
> On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 06:22:55 -0700 (PDT), "magua...@gmail.com"
> <magua...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> You guys are INCREDIBLY stupid! How do you think he ended up off-road?
>> ?He rode off-road! DUH!
>>
>> Actually you're the one that is tarded. The roads are narrow...no room
>> for error. blind corners, etc. this happens all the time. You're just
>> an idiot. Like I said...take a flyover of the area next time.
>
> That has nothing to do with the fact that he rode the bike off of the
> road.
Dude, if the guy hit a low barrier wall and went off the bike over the
wall, he was no longer riding the bike. Duh! If the deceased lost
control and was sliding on the ground, he was no longer riding the bike,
whether or not he was in contact with it. Duh!
Siskuwihane
> On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 06:05:04 GMT, rhopk...@loainc.com wrote:
> >So Mikey than the logical extension is that I simply need to ride my rode
> >bike on the trail and I am rode riding, nice logic dipwit.
>
> >If you die while having sex wearing hiking boots did you die as a hiker, or
> >in your case maybe wearing a sheep outfit while having sex you actually died
> >as a sheep.
>
> >Keep the entertainment going, I use to think you were simply a troll and
> >this was your way to get off since you probably could never get a woman to
> >sleep with you, but I finally realized you are simply as stupid as you
> >sound.
>
> If anyone can understand what you just said, please let us know. It's
> not any English that I recognize.
Not english that you recognize? Like when you wrote the word "boke"
not once, TWICE!
Siskuwihane
> On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 06:15:05 -0700 (PDT), "maguahi...@gmail.com"
>
> <maguahi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >You obviously haven't a clue what a mountain road is in south america
> >you asshole! Take a flyover some time Mr friendly skies!
>
> So you are afraid to admit that he rode his bike off of a road?
He didn't, the link I provided clearly states he wasn't on his bike
(or boke for those in Berkeley) when he went over the cliff, making
you, once again, a LIAR!
Mike Vandeman
<sunset...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
>marika wrote:
>>
>> "Mike Vandeman" <mjv...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
>> news:7l381494i6njtln3d...@4ax.com...
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Every one of your posts is a lie, since you don't use your real name.
>>
>> when did they write the law(s) that require using real names and or
>> telling the truth on usenet.
>>
>It all goes to accountability and therefore credibility - if a sock
>puppet becomes discredited,
What do you mean, "if"?! Use of a fictitious name is a sure sign of
dishonesty.
> it can be tossed for a new one.
--
Mike Vandeman
This post makes you a moron, because you weren't in possession of a
brain when you wrote it.
Clearly, he was riding his bike, because (1) he's a mountain biker,
and that's what they do, and (2) if he had been hiking, he wouldn't
have fallen off, because he would have had more secure footing.
>Another cyclist was killed (same article) on the paved section on
>Thursday, so much for the health benefits of road biking.
I've never claimed any health benefits for road biking.
>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24311931/
Mike Vandeman
BS. If he wasn't on his bike, he would still be alive. He would have
had more secure footing.
Mike Vandeman
Not using your real name is a sure sign of an intent to deceive. In
fact, it IS deception.
Mike Vandeman
>
>>
>> The scary part is that Mikey V. probably believes on what he is posting,
>> unlike some anonymous trolls whose intent is to stir things up.
>>
>
>It's a narcissistic thing with Mike. He likes seeing the name up there
>whether for fiction or non-fiction...he loves the attention.
That's right, and your continual talking about ME is a very good use
of your time. :) Idiot.
the full
>focus on him whether it be his multiple errors he makes or foolish
>statements of truths and non-truths. Everything just mends together
>anymore with his posts. So many self claims made by him with nothing
>to back it up. and if you come forward and post your own name...he
>will try and say you are still lying so no matter how you go with him,
>he's a attention whore. As long as he can stir the focus back to him
>somehow.
Mike Vandeman
<sunset...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
Bikes don't go off-road of their own accord. He rode it off of the
road. If he wasn't on a bike, he'd still be alive.
Mike Vandeman
<sunset...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
>Mike Vandeman blathered:
>> On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 06:22:55 -0700 (PDT), "magua...@gmail.com"
>> <magua...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> You guys are INCREDIBLY stupid! How do you think he ended up off-road?
>>> ?He rode off-road! DUH!
>>>
>>> Actually you're the one that is tarded. The roads are narrow...no room
>>> for error. blind corners, etc. this happens all the time. You're just
>>> an idiot. Like I said...take a flyover of the area next time.
>>
>> That has nothing to do with the fact that he rode the bike off of the
>> road.
>
>Dude, if the guy hit a low barrier wall and went off the bike over the
>wall, he was no longer riding the bike. Duh! If the deceased lost
>control and was sliding on the ground, he was no longer riding the bike,
>whether or not he was in contact with it. Duh!
That's part of mountain biking. It happens all the time. It certainly
doesn't make him a hiker! He was mountain biking.
Siskuwihane
My real name is out there, don't be so lazy and do some real research.
If it was on Travelocity.com you would have found it a long time ago.
Siskuwihane
No, you using the work "boke" TWICE makes you the moron, moron.
>
> Clearly, he was riding his bike, because (1) he's a mountain biker,
> and that's what they do, and (2) if he had been hiking, he wouldn't
> have fallen off, because he would have had more secure footing.
>
> >Another cyclist was killed (same article) on the paved section on
> >Thursday, so much for the health benefits of road biking.
>
> I've never claimed any health benefits for road biking.
No one said you did, dummy. Quit thinking it's all about you, you
aging attention whore.
Tom Sherman
> On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 21:35:25 -0500, Tom Sherman
> <sunset...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Mike Vandeman blathered:
>>> On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 06:22:55 -0700 (PDT), "magua...@gmail.com"
>>> <magua...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> You guys are INCREDIBLY stupid! How do you think he ended up off-road?
>>>> ?He rode off-road! DUH!
>>>>
>>>> Actually you're the one that is tarded. The roads are narrow...no room
>>>> for error. blind corners, etc. this happens all the time. You're just
>>>> an idiot. Like I said...take a flyover of the area next time.
>>> That has nothing to do with the fact that he rode the bike off of the
>>> road.
>> Dude, if the guy hit a low barrier wall and went off the bike over the
>> wall, he was no longer riding the bike. Duh! If the deceased lost
>> control and was sliding on the ground, he was no longer riding the bike,
>> whether or not he was in contact with it. Duh!
>
> That's part of mountain biking. It happens all the time. It certainly
> doesn't make him a hiker! He was mountain biking.
Mikey V. must think that crossing the Rocky Mountains by riding on the
paved shoulder of I-70 is mountain biking.
marika
>
> You are allowed to lie on the internet. That's what he did. But that
> makes him a liar.
> --
knew that was coming. :) Thanks
mk5000
"No, don't say that. We're not surrounded until they're all around of us."
Piper: --Charmed
marika
"Tom Sherman" <sunset...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
> It all goes to accountability and therefore credibility - if a sock puppet
> becomes discredited, it can be tossed for a new one.
Doesn't really good socking require running at least 4 simultaneously, with
all of them supporting each other's views? Rather than tossing one sock and
then creating another one later.
If the poster isn't using multisox all at once, then having only one
identity but using a pseudonym doesn't really accomplish the purpose you've
described
The more interesting sock is when someone uses an apparently real name, but
several people use the account but don't remember or care to learn what the
other users have said
now those are more fun
mk5000
"I was all in the bar when driftaa
Shorty damn came over then she hit the floor now
See through dress long hair light brown eyes
Look like Ms. Bo Peek"--Snoop Dog
>
marika
"Tom Sherman" <sunset...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
> The scary part is that Mikey V. probably believes on what he is posting,
> unlike some anonymous trolls whose intent is to stir things up.
>
you can't really have a good discussion without stirring something up, but
for the record Marika is my real name
so how's everyone reacting to Wright's presentation at the Press Club this
am.
How's everyone reacting to the Nierian thing
marika
"Siskuwihane" <Siskuw...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:871ddd27-8568-48d9...@24g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
Not sure if that's directed towards me or not, my real name and where
I live is posted elsewhere. My nic doesn't make my opinion,
experiences or knowledge any less valid than someone who uses their
real name on their account.
-----------
Interesting factoid.
mk5000
"I'm the life of the party
(Every time I show up)
I'm the life of the party
(Every time I blow up)"--Snoop Dog
marika
>
> Not using your real name is a sure sign of an intent to deceive. In
> fact, it IS deception.
> --
> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
There can be other motivations involved. Anonymity to prevent spam or
something more loathsome. A lot of people have unlisted numbers and numbers
listed under phony names for the same reason.
It can be that the person posts in one group using a name and in another
group using another name and tries to keep the mail to and from each
separate
Could be different machines or whatever, but used for sorting
Could be that the person just identifies with a particular thought or idea
associated with the name and likes that name so uses it
I wouldn't take such great meaning in the choice of a handle or email
address for usenet as you have applied
Someone could be using what appears to be a real name and it isn't theirs,
and you'd never know.
I could get me an email address and call myself John Smith and you'd never
realize that I'm not unless I told you
That you are more comfortable talking to someone that appears to have an
anglo sounding name is one of those funny things about usenet that lots of
scam artists take advantage of. That's why all those Nigerians use anglo
sounding names and trick so many old ladies into sending them money
mk5000
"Yo, this next record right here, is a dedication
This dedicated to those, who've come to an end
Quit like Gladys Knight...
You know neither one of us wants
to be the first one to say goodbye"--waste of time, snoop dog
marika
>
> That's right, and your continual talking about ME is a very good use
> of your time. :) Idiot.
>
Good god. How insane. It's not about you, it's about Bolivia
mk5000
"You should bang this down on your block
All through your hood
Burnin trees...burnin trees
Ladies let the music run right through you"--snoop dog, cool
marika
>
> What do you mean, "if"?!
Excellent, the burning bridges part is the important thing.
>Use of a fictitious name is a sure sign of
> dishonesty.
>
I know the sock's name but that's it
mk5000
"Is what he said to a loc as I dipped on out
Or as we say on the Eastside, you Cripped on out
See the sunshine and palm trees, livin' it up
Don't forget the block boys givin' it up"--Sets up, Snoop Dog
Ronnie Guthrie
"Siskuwihane" <Siskuw...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:14bdae95-b41b-431c...@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
Lol! Poor Moke :O)
magua...@gmail.com
laughs.
Mike Vandeman
wrote:
>
>"Tom Sherman" <sunset...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:fv29ve$cqi$1...@registered.motzarella.org...
>>>
>> It all goes to accountability and therefore credibility - if a sock puppet
>> becomes discredited, it can be tossed for a new one.
>
>Doesn't really good socking require running at least 4 simultaneously, with
>all of them supporting each other's views? Rather than tossing one sock and
>then creating another one later.
>
>If the poster isn't using multisox all at once, then having only one
>identity but using a pseudonym doesn't really accomplish the purpose you've
>described
>
>The more interesting sock is when someone uses an apparently real name, but
>several people use the account but don't remember or care to learn what the
>other users have said
>
>now those are more fun
You obviously have NO IDEA what you are talking about, LIAR.
>mk5000
>
>"I was all in the bar when driftaa
>Shorty damn came over then she hit the floor now
>See through dress long hair light brown eyes
>Look like Ms. Bo Peek"--Snoop Dog
>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
Mike Vandeman
wrote:
>
>"Mike Vandeman" <mjv...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
>news:vlla14p8sfsn43t6t...@4ax.com...
>>
>> That's right, and your continual talking about ME is a very good use
>> of your time. :) Idiot.
>>
>
>Good god. How insane. It's not about you,
Tell that to the mountain bikers. They LOVE talking about me, because
it allows them to avoid talking about the harm that mountain biking
does. So to help you, I'm attaching the information below.
it's about Bolivia
>
>mk5000
>
>"You should bang this down on your block
>All through your hood
>Burnin trees...burnin trees
>Ladies let the music run right through you"--snoop dog, cool
The Impacts of Mountain Biking on Wildlife and People --
A Review of the Literature
Michael J. Vandeman, Ph.D.
July 3, 2004
"Every recreationist -- whether hiker, biker, horsepacker, or posey
sniffer -- should not begin by asking, 'What's best for ME?' but
rather 'What's best for the bears?'" Tom Butler
"Will we keep some parts of the American landscape natural and wild
and free -- or must every acre be easily accessible to people and
their toys? … Mountain bikes' impacts on the land are large and
getting worse. … The aggressive push of mountain bike organizations to
build ever-growing webs of trails poses serious problems of habitat
fragmentation, increased erosion, and wildlife conflicts.
As interest in extreme riding continues to grow, as trail
networks burgeon, and as new technology makes it possible for
ever-more mountain bicyclists to participate, even the most remote
wild landscapes may become trammeled -- and trampled -- by knobby
tires. … The destruction of wilderness and the fragmentation of
habitats and ecosystems is death by a thousand cuts. Will introduction
of mountain bikes -- and their penetration farther into wilderness --
promote additional fragmentation and human conflicts with the natural
world? Yes." Brian O'Donnell and Michael Carroll
"Some things are obvious: mountain bikes do more damage to the land
than hikers. To think otherwise ignores the story told by the ground.
Although I have never ridden a mountain bike, I am very familiar with
their impacts. For the last seven years I have regularly run three to
six miles several times a week on a network of trails in the Sandia
Mountain foothills two blocks from my home. … These trails receive use
from walkers, runners, and mountain bikers; they are closed to
motorized vehicles.
Because I'm clumsy, I keep my eyes on the trail in front of
me. I run or walk in all seasons, in all kinds of weather. I have
watched the growing erosion on these trails from mountain bike use.
The basic difference between feet and tires is that tire tracks are
continuous and foot tracks are discontinuous. Water finds that narrow,
continuous tire tracks are a rill in which to flow. Also, because many
mountain bikers are after thrills and speed, their tires cut into the
ground. Slamming on the brakes after zooming downhill, sliding around
sharp corners, and digging in to go uphill: I see the results of this
behavior weekly. …
I regularly see mountain bikers cutting off cross-country,
even on steep slopes, for more of a challenge. They seem blind and
deaf to the damage they cause. Admittedly, backpackers and
horsepackers can cause damage to wilderness trails. But this is a poor
argument to suggest that we add another source of damage to those
trails." Dave Foreman
"Studies show that bike impacts are similar to those of other
non-motorized trail users." Jim Hasenauer (professor of rhetoric and
member of the board of directors of the International Mountain
Bicyclists Association)
Introduction:
I first became interested in the problem of mountain biking in
1994. I had been studying the impacts of the presence of humans on
wildlife, and had come to the conclusion that there needs to be
habitat that is entirely off-limits to humans, in order that wildlife
that is sensitive to the presence of humans can survive (see Vandeman,
2000). But what is the best way to minimize the presence of people?
Restricting human access is repugnant, and difficult and expensive to
accomplish. It occurred to me that the best way to reduce the presence
and impacts of humans is to restrict the technologies that they are
allowed to utilize in nature: e.g. prohibit bicycles and other
vehicles (and perhaps even domesticated animals, when used as
vehicles).
Having been a transportation activist for eight years (working
on stopping highway construction), and having a favorable view of my
fellow bicyclists as environmentalists, I turned to them to help me
campaign to keep bicycles out of natural areas. Was I ever surprised!
I discovered that many bicyclists (e.g. many mountain bikers) aren't
environmentalists at all, but are simply people who like to bicycle --
in the case of mountain bikers, many of them just use nature, as a
kind of playground or outdoor gymnasium! (Of course, there are also
hikers, equestrians, and other recreationists who fall into this
category.) To my suggestion to keep bikes off of trails in order to
protect wildlife, they reacted with hostility! (There is a degree of
balkanization among activists, where some transportation activists
ignore the needs of wildlife, and some wildlife activists eschew bikes
and public transit.)
In 1994 I attended a public hearing held by the East Bay
Municipal Utility (water) District to decide whether to allow bikes on
their watershed lands. Mountain bikers were there asking for bike
access, and the Sierra Club was there to retain the right to hike,
while keeping out the bicycles. I said that I had no interest in using
the watershed, but that I wanted to ensure that the wildlife are
protected -- hence, I asked that bikes not be allowed. Afterward, the
EBMUD Board of Directors took a field trip to Marin County, the
birthplace of mountain biking, to see the effects of mountain biking
there. While they were hiking along a narrow trail, a mountain biker
came racing by, swearing at them for not getting out of his way fast
enough. That helped them decide to ban bikes. Today bikes are still
restricted to paved roads, and EBMUD is still one of the public
agencies most protective of wildlife.
It is obvious that mountain biking is harmful to some wildlife
and people. No one, even mountain bikers, tries to deny that. Bikes
create V-shaped ruts in trails, throw dirt to the outside on turns,
crush small plants and animals on and under the trail, facilitate
increased levels of human access into wildlife habitat, and drive
other trail users (many of whom are seeking the tranquility and
primitiveness of natural surroundings) out of the parks. Because land
managers were starting to ban bikes from trails, the mountain bikers
decided to try to shift the battlefield to science, and try to
convince people that mountain biking is no more harmful than hiking.
But there are two problems with this approach: (1) it's not true, and
(2) it's irrelevant.
I will examine (1) in a moment. But first, let's look at
relevance: whether or not hiking (or All Terrain Vehicles or urban
sprawl or anything else) is harmful really has no bearing on whether
mountain biking is harmful: they are independent questions. Such a
comparison would only be relevant if one were committed to allowing
only one activity or the other, and wanted to know which is more
harmful. In reality, hiking is always allowed, and the question is
whether to add mountain biking as a permitted activity. In that case,
the only relevant question is: Is mountain biking harmful? Of course,
it is. However, since many people seem interested in the outcome of
the comparison, I will examine the research and try to answer it.
The mountain bikers' other line of research aims to prove that
mountain bikers are just like hikers, implying that they should have
the same privileges as hikers. (Of course, they already have the same
privileges! The exact same rules apply to both groups: both are
allowed to hike everywhere, and neither is allowed to bring a bike
where they aren't allowed.) Using surveys, they have tried to show
that mountain bikers are really environmentalists, lovers of nature,
and deep ecologists. Of course, surveys are notoriously unreliable:
statements of belief don't easily translate into behavior. I'm going
to ignore this research, since I am (and the wildlife are) more
interested in actual impacts, not intentions.
The International Mountain Biking Association (IMBA) has done
me the favor of collecting all the research they could find that
seemed favorable to mountain biking. Gary Sprung (2004) summarized it
in his carefully worded essay, "Natural Resource Impacts of Mountain
Biking". Gary says "the empirical studies thus far do not support the
notion that bikes cause more natural resource impact". I will show
that this is not true; in fact, those studies, if their data are
interpreted properly, show the exact opposite: that mountain biking
has much greater impact than hiking! Gary says that we should make
"make rational, non-arbitrary, less political decisions regarding
which groups are allowed on particular routes". This is disingenuous.
Mountain bikers (but not bikes) are already allowed on every trail.
Impacts on Soil (Erosion):
Gary says "No scientific studies show that mountain bikers
cause more wear to trails than other users". He cites Wilson and Seney
(1994) and claims that "hooves and feet erode more than wheels. …
Wilson and Seney found no statistically significant difference between
measured bicycling and hiking effects". He quotes the study: "Horses
and hikers (hooves and feet) made more sediment available than wheels
(motorcycles and off-road bicycles) on prewetted trails" (p.74).
This study is frequently cited by mountain bikers as proof
that mountain biking doesn't cause more impact than hiking. But it has
a number of defects that call its conclusions into question. The
authors used a "rainfall simulator" to measure "sediment made
available" by the various treatments. They "[collected] surface runoff
and sediment yield produced by the simulated rainstorms at the
downslope end of each plot", which they claim "correlates with
erosion" (they don't say what the correlation coefficient is). This
doesn't seem like a good measure of erosion. For example, if a large
rock were dislodged, the very weak "simulated rainfall" wouldn't be
capable of transporting it into the collecting tray; only very fine
particles would be collected. In fact, they admit that the simulator's
"small size … meant that the kinetic energy of the simulated rainfall
events was roughly one-third that of natural rainstorms". Another
reason to suspect that the measurements aren't valid is that "none of
the relationships between water runoff and soil texture, slope,
antecedent soil moisture, trail roughness, and soil resistance was
statistically significant".
The authors also ignored the relative distances that various
trail users typically travel (for example, bikers generally travel
several times as far as hikers, multiplying their impacts accordingly)
and the additional impacts due to the mountain bike bringing new
people to the trails that otherwise would not have been there (the
same omission is true of all other studies, except Wisdom et al
(2004)). They do say "Trail use in the last ten years has seen a
dramatic increase in off-road bicycles" (p.86), but they don't
incorporate this fact into their comparison. In addition, there is no
recognition of different styles of riding and their effect on erosion.
We don't know if the mountain bikers rode in representative fashion,
or, more likely, rode more gently, with less skidding, acceleration,
braking, and turning. There was also no recognition that soil
displaced sideways (rather than downhill) also constitutes erosion
damage. It seems likely that they underestimated the true impacts of
mountain biking. I don't think that these results are reliable. (Note
that the study was partially funded by IMBA.)
Gary next cited Chiu (Luke...@utas.edu.au) and Kriwoken
(L.K.Kr...@utas.edu.au), claiming that there was "no significant
difference between hiking and biking trail wear". It is apparent he
and the authors misstated the implications of the study. If we assume,
as they claim, that bikers and hikers have the same impact per mile
(which is what they measured), then it follows that mountain bikers
have several times the impact of hikers, since they generally travel
several times as far. (I haven't found any published statistics, but I
have informally collected 72 mountain bikers' ride announcements,
which advertise rides of a minimum of 8 miles, an average of 27 miles,
and a maximum of 112 miles.)
Besides ignoring distance travelled, there were a number of
other defects in the study. The biking that was compared with hiking
was apparently not typical mountain biking. It was apparently slower
than normal and included no skidding. Bikers who skidded (a normal
occurrence) were not compared with hikers. Their erosion impacts were
much greater than those of any hikers (judging from the study's graph
labelled "Figure 3"). Bikers' impacts under wet conditions were also
greater than those of the hikers, which probably would have been
statistically significant, if the numbers (of data points) had been
greater. One useful result was that the bikers tended to create a
V-shaped groove, whereas the hikers' impact was spread more evenly
across the trail. They admit that this "could act as a water channel
and increase erosion" (p.356). They also surveyed trail users: "34% of
riders listed excitement/risk as a main reason for visiting [the
park]. This, combined with the 57% of 'other users' who visit for
relaxation, sets up a potential for goal interference, in that a rider
aiming for an exciting/risky experience has the potential to interfere
with a walker aiming to have a relaxing experience." (p.357) This
would also tend to indicate that many bikers travel faster than those
in this study, since they are seeking "excitement" and "risk".
Impacts on Plants:
Gary says "No scientific studies indicate that bicycling
causes more degradation of plants than hiking. Trails are places
primarily devoid of vegetation, so for trail use in the center of
existing paths, impacts to vegetation are not a concern." However this
is a concern for plants that try to establish themselves in the trail,
and for roots that cross the trail and end up being killed or damaged.
He cites Thurston and Reader (2001), claiming that "hiking and
bicycling trample vegetation at equal rates … the impacts of biking
and hiking measured here were not significantly different". Actually,
that is not true. Although overall impacts weren't significantly
different, "soil exposure [was] greater on biking 500 pass lanes than
hiking 500 pass lanes" (p.404). In other words, after 500 passes,
mountain biking began to show significantly greater impacts. Thus
their conclusion, "the impacts of biking and hiking measured here were
not significantly different" (p.405) is unwarranted.
The authors said "Bikers traveled at a moderate speed, usually
allowing bicycles to roll down lanes without pedaling where the slope
would allow." Thus it would appear that the mountain biking that they
measured is not representative: it was unusually slow and didn't
include much opportunity for braking, accelerating, or turning, where
greater impacts would be expected to occur.
The authors also said "Some hikers feel that bikers should be
excluded from existing trails" (p.397). Of course, this is not true.
Hikers are only asking that bikes be excluded, not bikers. On page 407
they admit the "possibility … that mountain bikers simply contribute
further to the overuse of trails". In other words, allowing bikes on
trails allows trail use to increase over what it would be if bikes
weren't allowed. This is probably true, and deserves to be recognized
and researched.
They found that "One year following treatments, neither
vegetation loss nor species loss was significantly greater on treated
lanes than on control lanes" (p.406). They conclude that the
recreation impacts are "short-term", and experience "rapid recovery".
This is unjustified. Killing plants and destroying seeds modifies the
gene pool, and introduces human-caused loss of genetic diversity, and
evolution. Dead plants and lost genetic diversity do not "recover"
(see Vandeman, 2001).
However, the greatest defect of the study and its
interpretation is that is that it doesn't consider the distance that
bikers travel. Even if we accepted their conclusions that impacts per
mile are the same, it would follow that mountain bikers have several
times the impact of hikers, since they are easily able to, and do,
travel several times as far as hikers. Try walking 25 or 50 or 100
miles in a day!
Impacts on Animals:
Gary cites Taylor and Knight (1993), claiming that "hiking and
biking cause [the] same impact to large mammals on Utah island".
First, as noted by Wisdom et al (2004), this study lacked a control
group, and hence can't infer causation. Second, the authors made the
same mistake that all other researchers made: they ignored the
different distances that hikers and bikers travel. I also wonder how
realistic it was to have all recreationists continue past the animals
without stopping to look at them. (All of those researchers also
failed to implement blind measurement and analysis: the researchers
were aware, as they were measuring, which treatment they were testing.
Only Wisdom et al were able to carry out their measurements
(electronically) without any people even being present.)
This is a very informative paper. The authors "examined the
responses of bison …, mule deer …, and pronghorn antelope … to hikers
and mountain bikers … by comparing alert distance, flight distance,
and distance moved" (p.951). They noted, significantly, that "Outdoor
recreation has the potential to disturb wildlife, resulting in
energetic costs, impacts to animals' behavior and fitness, and
avoidance of otherwise suitable habitat. … outdoor recreation is the
second leading cause for the decline of federally threatened and
endangered species on public lands" (p.951). They also noted that
"Mountain biking in particular is one of the fastest-growing outdoor
activities, with 43.3 million persons participating at least once in
2000" (p.952). However, they didn't draw on this fact when they
concluded "We found no biological justification for managing mountain
biking any differently than hiking" (p.961).
The authors also surveyed the recreationists, and found that
they "failed to perceive that they were having as great an effect on
wildlife as our biological data indicated. Most recreationists felt
that it was acceptable to approach wildlife at a much closer distance
(mean acceptable distance to approach = 59.0 m) than wildlife in our
experimental trials would typically allow a human to approach (mean
flight distance of all species = 150.6 m). … Of all visitors surveyed,
46%, 53%, and 54%, respectively, felt that bison, deer, and pronghorn
were being negatively affected by recreation on Antelope Island. …
Visitors expressed little support for allowing only one type of
recreational use on island trails, having fewer trails on the island,
for requiring visitors to watch an educational video about the effects
of recreation on wildlife, and for allowing recreation only on the
north (developed) end of the island" (p.957). (Gary Sprung omitted
this information from his summary.)
They noted that the wildlife might habituate to the presence
of humans, but that exactly the opposite happened with the pronghorn:
they "in fact used areas that were significantly farther from trails
than they had prior to the start of recreational use on the island"
(p.961). They also noted: "Because flushing from recreational activity
may come at the cost of energy needed for normal survival, growth, and
reproduction …, and because it may cause animals to avoid otherwise
suitable habitat …, it is important that recreationists understand
that their activities can flush wildlife and may make suitable habitat
unavailable" (p.961). I think that the wealth of such information
provided by the authors makes this paper especially valuable.
They concluded "Our results indicate that there is little
difference in wildlife response to hikers vs. mountain bikers"
(p.957). I was present when Ms. Taylor presented her findings at the
Society for Conservation Biology meeting at the University of Kent, in
Canterbury, England, in July, 2002. I pointed out to her that she
wasn't justified in concluding, as she did, that "hiking and mountain
biking have the same impacts", since she only measured impacts per
incident. Since bikers are able, and typically do, travel several
times as far as hikers, a more proper conclusion would be that bikers
have several times as much impact on wildlife as hikers. That is why I
am so disappointed to find her later concluding in this 2003 paper,
"We found no biological justification for managing mountain biking any
differently than hiking" (p.961). If mountain bikers can travel even
twice as far as hikers, and disturb twice as many animals, I would
think that that is biologically significant! It isn't much help that
she goes on to admit that "because bikers travel faster than hikers,
they may cover more ground in a given time period than hikers, thus
having the opportunity to disturb more wildlife per unit time"
(p.961). She has still drawn an unjustified conclusion, and it is
certain to be frequently quoted (out of context) by mountain bikers,
as they try to lobby for more trail access.
I also wonder about the accuracy of their measurements of
distance. Distance is notoriously difficult to measure accurately,
especially when animals and recreationists may be hidden from view
("Due to the inherent errors in triangulating in the steep canyon
country, only ground visual locations were used in the analysis"
p.577). Bias may also have been introduced by the fact that
researchers knew, as they were measuring, which treatment they were
measuring.
Sprung next cited Papouchis et al (2001), claiming that
"Hikers have [the] greatest impact on bighorn sheep [in Canyonlands
National Park] … because the hikers were more likely to be in
unpredictable locations and often directly approached [the] sheep".
Actually, this is an artifact of the experimental design, and not a
result of research: the researchers, for some reason, told the hikers
(who were research assistants) to approach the sheep! So the study
actually compared apples and oranges: bikers who stay on a road, vs.
hikers who approach bighorn sheep! Nothing useful can be concluded
from such a study, except that people who approach bighorn sheep
disturb them. Of course, there is nothing to prevent mountain bikers
from getting off their bikes and doing the same thing. It's
unfortunate that the opportunity was lost to gain more valuable
knowledge. I wrote the authors, asking why they had done this, but I
got no reply. It would appear that the intention was to exonerate
mountain biking (this also applies to most of the other studies).
It is interesting that "when bighorn sheep did respond to
human activity, they noticed vehicles and mountain bikers, on average,
from twice the distance they noticed hikers" (p.577). This would seem
to imply that, were hikers to remain on the trail where the mountain
bikers were, they might have equal or lower impacts than the mountain
bikers.
It is also unfortunate that there was no control group, so
that they could determine the effect of the presence of roads, with
and without people on them. They did note that "avoidance of the road
corridor by some animals represented 15% less use of potential
suitable habitat in the high-[visitor-]use area over the
low-[visitor-]use area. … human presence in bighorn sheep habitat may
cause sheep to vacate suitable habitat" (p.573). This argues for
eliminating all recreation in the area, especially since the absence
of water forces recreationists to bring motor vehicles carrying water
and other supplies: "mountain bikers frequently use the 161-km White
Rim trail, a 4-wheel-drive road. Caravans of mountain bikers
accompanied by support vehicles are common. Day use along the Shafer
and White Rim trails exceeded 17,500 vehicles during the study period,
1993-1994. This use was concentrated from March to October, with peak
use of 134 vehicles/day in May" (p.575).
The authors conclude "Contrary to our original expectations
and the concerns of park managers, the increase in numbers of mountain
bikers visiting the park does not appear to be a serious threat to
desert bighorn sheep, probably because mountain bikers are restricted
to predictable situations such as the currently designated road
corridors" (p.580). For several reasons, this conclusion is not
justified: (1) as they reported, all recreationists drive the sheep
away from parts of their habitat, causing loss of energy as well as
habitat; (2) permitting bikes causes the total number of visitors to
increase significantly; (3) bikes can't travel alone -- they require
motorized support vehicles, further increasing impacts (e.g. worsening
air quality); (4) there is nothing to prevent mountain bikers from
getting off their bikes and approaching the wildlife; if hikers do
that, so will mountain bikers; there is no reason to exonerate
mountain bikers.
They note, significantly, "However, these results should not
be extrapolated to other public lands where mountain bikers are not
confined to designated trails and may surprise sheep in novel
situations" (p.580). Gary Sprung didn't mention this, thus encouraging
inappropriate use of this study's already-questionable results.
I would like, however, to commend the authors for stating "we
recommend that park managers manage levels of backcountry activity at
low levels" (p.580). The best policy would be to ban all vehicles,
including bicycles (as well as animals used as vehicles). That would
reduce human impacts, without directly restricting who could go there
(perhaps occasional exceptions could be made for the disabled).
Gary next cited Gander and Ingold (1997), claiming that
"hikers, joggers & mountain bikers [are] all the same to chamois". But
again, this is not an accurate representation of the results: "They
fled over longer distances in jogging and mountain biking experiments
… carried out late in the morning" (p.109). Also, "the three
activities carried out on the ground could have long-term consequences
as they prevent the animals from using areas near trails. Thus,
depending on the density of trails and the intensity of recreational
activities in a certain area, animals may lose a large part of their
habitat" (p.109).
The authors conclude "Our results show that specific
restrictions on mountainbiking above the timberline are not justified
from the point of view of chamois" (p.109). Once again (is there a
pattern here?), this conclusion is not justified. It ignores the fact
that mountain bikers are able to travel several times as far as
hikers, and thus negatively impact several times as much wildlife. It
also ignores the fact that bicycles enable a large increase in numbers
of human visitors (note that this places the blame on the bicycle, not
the bicyclists -- my argument doesn't depend on there being any
difference between hikers and mountain bikers). And, of course,
wherever the number of visitors increases, there is pressure to build
more trails, destroying even more habitat. Once again, it would appear
that this study was undertaken with the intent of excusing mountain
biking.
Gary next cites a study of bald eagles by Robin Spahr (1990).
"Spahr found that walkers caused the highest frequency of eagle
flushing". However, this study is difficult to interpret. Eagles don't
congregate in large numbers, like sheep, so it is hard to ensure that
all treatments are equally balanced: it is hard to imagine that the
conditions under different treatments (or even within treatments) were
equal. Also, the bikers were apparently instructed to ride by without
looking at the eagles, whereas some of the walkers were told to look
and point at the eagles (the paper is vague on this point). In other
words, the study was comparing apples with oranges. Thus, I don't know
if this was really a controlled study. Spahr also found that
"bicyclists caused eagles to flush at [the] greatest distances", which
would tend to indicate that bicyclists have greater impacts. Distances
are also notoriously difficult to measure accurately. We are given no
information about the "rangefinder", in order to judge its accuracy.
At best, these are mixed results. And, once again, the greater
distances that bikers travel are ignored, as well as the greater
visitor numbers that the bicycle enables. Therefore, the study cannot
be said to support any conclusion about how hiking compares with
mountain biking, and certainly not Gary's statement: "Hikers have
greater impact on eagles than cyclists". To Spahr's credit, she did
not attempt to generalize beyond her data.
Gary concludes "Mountain biking, like other recreation
activities, does impact the environment. On this point, there is
little argument. But … a body of empirical, scientific studies now
indicates [sic] that mountain biking is no more damaging than other
forms of recreation, including hiking [Gary's emphasis]. Thus,
managers who prohibit bicycle use (while allowing hiking or equestrian
use) based on impacts to trails, soils, wildlife, or vegetation are
acting without sound, scientific backing." Au contraire, as I have
indicated, the very studies that Gary and IMBA cite as support for
mountain biking actually show that mountain biking does much more harm
to the environment than hiking! Gary goes on to fault "the wisdom of
prohibiting [sic] particular user groups". However, as I explained
earlier, mountain bikers are not prohibited from using any trails.
Bicycles are occasionally prohibited. Mountain bikers are merely
required to follow the same rules as everyone else, and walk.
At the bottom of the same web page is the notice: "IMBA wishes
to obtain and incorporate into future revisions of this document any
new or additional empirical science regarding the impacts of mountain
biking. IMBA welcomes input [my emphasis]. To offer information,
please contact the author at ga...@imba.com". On April 25 I emailed
Gary (and Pete Webber, pe...@imba.com) the Wisdom et al study, which
demonstrates that mountain bikers have a greater impact on elk than
hikers. Not only hasn't this new research been incorporated into his
paper, but I haven't even received a reply. It would appear that IMBA
isn't really interested in achieving a scientific answer to this
question.
In 2003, Jason Lathrop wrote an excellent "critical literature
review" on the ecological impacts of mountain biking, raising some
questions found nowhere else. He quotes the BLM: "An estimated 13.5
million mountain bicyclists visit public lands each year to enjoy the
variety of trails. What was once a low use activity that was easy to
manage has become more complex". He criticizes all of the studies for
not using realistic representations of mountain biking. For example,
on Thurston and Reader, he says "this study's treatment passes at best
loosely approximate the forces exerted by actual mountain biking. On
real trails, riders possess widely varying levels of skill, resulting
in variant speeds, turning, and braking. This study does not address
these variables." Lathrop also makes the excellent point that "Direct
mortality [of animals] is virtually unstudied. I could find no
references to it in the literature. Anecdotal evidence suggests,
however, that small mammals are vulnerable to impact and are not
uncommonly killed."
And: "Taylor (2001) concluded that short-term behavioral
changes do not vary between bicyclists and hikers on a per-encounter
basis. However, because bicyclists are capable of and, in most areas,
typically do travel much farther than hikers, it is reasonable to
conclude that they will create a somewhat higher total number of
encounters and flushings."
Cessford (1995) did an oft-quoted review (which I am including
only because it is so widely cited) that, like all others,
uncritically accepts Wilson and Seney (1994) as proof that mountain
biking impacts are no worse than those of hikers. His paper is mostly
speculation, based on few actual research findings. He disparages
negative information about mountain biking by such devices as claiming
that problems are caused by a minority of mountain bikers, exhibiting
"poor riding habits", that accidents involving hikers and bikers are
"rare", that hikers' dislike for being around bikes in the woods, and
feelings that bikes cause greater environmental harm than hiking, are
mere "perceptions". He blames hikers for "misperceiving" mountain
bikers, claiming that "the two groups are more similar than is
generally perceived. … The bicyclists … are basically hikers who are
using mountain bikes to gain quicker access to the wilderness
boundary". He speculates, without any evidence, that "the degree of
conflict with mountain biking may diminish over time as other users
become more familiar with bike-encounters and riders themselves". A
more likely interpretation is that hikers who dislike being around
bikes simply stop using trails that are open to bikes, thereby
lessening the conflict!
Finally, in 2004, Wisdom et al did a very well controlled
study comparing the impacts of ATV riders, mountain bikers, and hikers
on elk and mule deer. They say we have an "urgent need for timely
management information to address the rapid growth in off-road
recreation. … Mountain biking [is] … increasing rapidly".
Recreationists were allowed to stop for less than a minute to look at
the animals. All measurements were made electronically, using an
Automated Telemetry System and GPS, allowing control measurements to
be made "blind", with no humans present! "Use of the automated
telemetry system to track animal movements, combined with the use of
GPS units to track human movements, provided real-time, unbiased
estimates of the distances between each ungulate and group of humans
[the recreationists were in pairs]". He pointed out that direct
measurements, a la Taylor and Knight, tend to be biased, because some
animals can't be observed. The area was entirely fenced, allowing
researchers to completely control human access.
They found: "Movement rates of elk were substantially higher
during all four off-road activities as compared to periods of no human
activity. … For the morning pass, movement rates of elk were highest
during ATV activity, second-highest during mountain bike riding, and
lowest during hiking and horseback riding. … Peak movement rates of
elk during the morning pass were highest for ATV riding (21
yards/minute), followed by mountain bike riding (17 yards/minute) and
horseback riding and hiking (both about 15 yards/minute). … By
contrast, peak movement rates of elk during the control periods did
not exceed 9 yards/minute during daylight hours of 0800-1500, the
comparable period of each day when off-road treatments were
implemented. Interestingly, movement rates of elk were also higher
than control periods at times encompassing sunrise and sunset for the
days in which an off-road activity occurred, even though humans were
not present at these times of the day. These higher movement rates
near sunrise and sunset suggest that elk were displaced from preferred
security and foraging areas as a result of flight behavior during the
daytime off-road activities. In particular, movement rates of elk at
or near sunrise and sunset were higher during the 5-day treatments of
mountain bike and ATV activity".
"Higher probabilities of flight response occurred during ATV
and mountain bike activity, in contrast to lower probabilities
observed during hiking and horseback riding. Probability of a flight
response declined most rapidly during hiking, with little effect when
hikers were beyond 550 yards from an elk. By contrast, higher
probabilities of elk flight continued beyond 820 yards from horseback
riders, and 1,640 yards from mountain bike and ATV riders. In contrast
to elk, mule deer showed less change in movement rates during the four
off-road activities compared to the control periods". (Perhaps they
seek cover, rather than running away.)
"The energetic costs associated with these treatments deserve
further analysis to assess potential effects on elk survival. For
example, if the additional energy required to flee from an off-road
activity reduces the percent body fat below 9 percent as animals enter
the winter period, the probability of surviving the winter is
extremely low. Animal energy budgets also may be adversely affected by
the loss of foraging opportunities while responding to off-road
activities, both from increased movements, and from displacement from
foraging habitat. … Our results from 2002 also show clear differences
in elk responses to the four off-road activities. Elk reactions were
more pronounced during ATV and mountain bike riding, and less so
during horseback riding and hiking. Both movement rates and
probabilities of flight responses were higher for ATV and mountain
bike riding than for horseback riding and hiking."
It is also instructive to note that only one pair of ATV users
were needed to cover the 20-mile study area, but two pairs of mountain
bikers and three pairs of hikers were needed, to cover the distance in
the time allotted, underscoring the different relative distances that
the three groups are capable of covering.
Summary:
Mountain bikers have turned to scientific research to try to
make mountain biking seem less harmful, and in particular, to studies
comparing it with hiking. Although they have interpreted this data as
indicating that mountain biking impacts are no greater than those of
hiking, a more careful look at these studies leads to the conclusion
that mountain biking impacts are actually several times greater than
those of hikers.
Some of the important characteristics of mountain biking that
have been ignored are: speed; distance traveled; the increase in
number of visitors that bikes allow; increased trail-building, with
its attendant habitat destruction; the displacement of soil (other
than downhill); the killing of roots and soil organisms and
ecosystems; most effects on wildlife; manner of riding (skidding,
braking, acceleration, turning, and representativeness); tire tread;
and noise (bikes are relatively quiet, but a rattling chain may be
perceived as "alien" to natural surroundings).
In addition, measuring techniques need to be described in more
detail, "blind" measurements should be considered (where the measurers
don't know what treatment they are measuring), controls need to be
added, and "intangibles" (e.g. loss of feelings of safety and loss of
the primitive feel of natural settings) need to be taken more
seriously. The direct killing of small animals deserves attention.
On the other hand, why do we need research to prove what is
obvious? We don't need any research to know that we shouldn't step in
front of a speeding truck. Or mountain bike.
References:
Butler, Tom, "Mountain biking in wilderness: What bears want -- a
wilderness view". Wild Earth, Vol.13, No.1, 2003, p.4,
http://www.wildlandsproject.org.
Cessford, Gordon R. (gces...@doc.govt.nz), "Off-road impacts of
mountain bikes -- a review and discussion". Science & Research Series
No.92, Department of Conservation, P. O. Box 10-420, Wellington, New
Zealand, 1995,
http://www.mountainbike.co.nz/politics/doc/impacts/index.htm.
Chiu, Luke (Luke...@utas.edu.au) and Lorne Kriwoken
(L.K.Kr...@utas.edu.au), "Managing Recreational Mountain Biking in
Wellington Park, Tasmania, Australia". Annals of Leisure Research,
Vol.6, No.4, 2003, pp.339-361.
Foreman, Dave, "A modest proposal". Wild Earth, Vol.13, No.1, 2003,
pp.34-5, http://www.wildlandsproject.org.
Gander, Hans and Paul Ingold, "Reactions of male alpine chamois
Rupicapra r. rupicapra to hikers, joggers and mountainbikers".
Biological Conservation, Vol.79, 1997, pp.107-9.
Goeft, Ute and Jackie Alder, "Sustainable mountain biking: a case
study from the southwest of Western Australia". Journal of Sustainable
Tourism, Vol.9, No.3, 2001, pp.193-211.
Hasenauer, Jim (imb...@aol.com), "A niche for bicycles". Wild Earth,
Vol.13, No.1, 2003, pp.21-22, http://www.wildlandsproject.org.
Lathrop, Jason, "Ecological impacts of mountain biking: a critical
literature review". 2003,
http://www.wildlandscpr.org/resourcelibrary/reports/mountainbikingreport.htm.
McCoy, Michael and Mary Alice Stoner, "Mountain bike trails:
Techniques for design, construction and maintenance". Bikecentennial,
P. O. Box 8308, Missoula, MT 59807, 1992.
O'Donnell, Brian and Michael Carroll, "Don't tread here". Wild Earth,
Vol.13, No.1, 2003, pp.31-33, http://www.wildlandsproject.org.
Papouchis, Christopher M. (papo...@hotmail.com), Francis J. Singer,
and William B. Sloan, "Responses of desert bighorn sheep to increased
human recreation". Journal of Wildlife Management, Vol.65, No.3, 2001,
pp.573-82.
Spahr, Robin, "Factors affecting the distribution of bald eagles and
effects of human activity on bald eagles wintering along the Boise
River". A thesis submitted in partial fulfillment of the requirements
for the degree of Master of Science of Raptor Biology, Boise State
University, March, 1990.
Sprung, Gary (ga...@imba.com), "Natural resource impacts of mountain
biking -- a summary of scientific studies that compare mountain biking
to other forms of trail travel", 2004,
http://www.imba.com/resources/science/impact_summary.html.
Taylor, Audrey (audrey...@fws.gov) and Richard L. Knight
(kni...@cnr.colostate.edu) "Wildlife responses to recreation and
associated visitor perceptions". Ecological Applications, Vol.13,
No.4, 2003, pp.951-63.
Thurston, Eden and Richard J. Reader (rre...@uoguelph.ca), "Impacts
of experimentally applied mountain biking and hiking on vegetation and
soil of a deciduous forest". Environmental Management, Vol.27, No.3,
2001, pp.397-409.
Vandeman, Michael J. (mjv...@pacbell.net), 1998. Wildlife Need
Habitat Off-Limits to Humans! in Personal, Societal, and Ecological
Values of Wilderness: Sixth World Wilderness Congress: Proceedings on
Research, Management, and Allocation: A. E. Watson, G. H. Aplet, J. C.
Hendee, eds. Fort Collins, CO: U.S. Dept. of Agriculture, Forest
Service, Rocky Mountain Research Station; also available at
http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/india3.htm.
Vandeman, Michael J. (mjv...@pacbell.net), "The Myth of the
Sustainable Lifestyle". Presented at the Society for Conservation
Biology meeting, University of Hawaii, Hilo, Hawaii, July 30, 2001,
http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/sustain.htm.
Wilson, John P. (jpwi...@usc.edu) and Joseph Seney, "Erosional impact
of hikers, horses, motorcycles, and off-road bicycles on mountain
trails in Montana". Mountain Research and Development, Vol.14, No.1,
1994, pp.77-88.
Wisdom, M. J. (mwi...@fs.fed.us), Alan A. Ager (aa...@fs.fed.us ), H.
K. Preisler (hpre...@fs.fed.us), N. J. Cimon (nci...@fs.fed.us), and
B. K. Johnson (john...@eou.edu), "Effects of off-road recreation on
mule deer and elk". Transactions of the North American Wildlife and
Natural Resources Conference 69, 2004, pp.531-550.
Mike Vandeman
<sunset...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
>Mike Vandeman wrote:
>> On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 21:35:25 -0500, Tom Sherman
>> <sunset...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Mike Vandeman blathered:
>>>> On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 06:22:55 -0700 (PDT), "magua...@gmail.com"
>>>> <magua...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> You guys are INCREDIBLY stupid! How do you think he ended up off-road?
>>>>> ?He rode off-road! DUH!
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually you're the one that is tarded. The roads are narrow...no room
>>>>> for error. blind corners, etc. this happens all the time. You're just
>>>>> an idiot. Like I said...take a flyover of the area next time.
>>>> That has nothing to do with the fact that he rode the bike off of the
>>>> road.
>>> Dude, if the guy hit a low barrier wall and went off the bike over the
>>> wall, he was no longer riding the bike. Duh! If the deceased lost
>>> control and was sliding on the ground, he was no longer riding the bike,
>>> whether or not he was in contact with it. Duh!
>>
>> That's part of mountain biking. It happens all the time. It certainly
>> doesn't make him a hiker! He was mountain biking.
>
>Mikey V. must think that crossing the Rocky Mountains by riding on the
>paved shoulder of I-70 is mountain biking.
Only if done on a mountain bike.
Mike Vandeman
You are hiding, a sure sign of a LIAR.
Mike Vandeman
wrote:
>
>"Mike Vandeman" <mjv...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
>news:1ila14peg2obrkk56...@4ax.com...
>
>
>>
>> Not using your real name is a sure sign of an intent to deceive. In
>> fact, it IS deception.
>> --
>> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
>
>
>
>There can be other motivations involved. Anonymity to prevent spam or
>something more loathsome. A lot of people have unlisted numbers and numbers
>listed under phony names for the same reason.
>
>It can be that the person posts in one group using a name and in another
>group using another name and tries to keep the mail to and from each
>separate
>
>Could be different machines or whatever, but used for sorting
>
>Could be that the person just identifies with a particular thought or idea
>associated with the name and likes that name so uses it
>
>I wouldn't take such great meaning in the choice of a handle or email
>address for usenet as you have applied
When coupled with continual LYING, it's obvious that the intent is to
deceive.
>Someone could be using what appears to be a real name and it isn't theirs,
>and you'd never know.
>
>I could get me an email address and call myself John Smith and you'd never
>realize that I'm not unless I told you
>
>That you are more comfortable talking to someone that appears to have an
>anglo sounding name is one of those funny things about usenet that lots of
>scam artists take advantage of. That's why all those Nigerians use anglo
>sounding names and trick so many old ladies into sending them money
>
>mk5000
>
>"Yo, this next record right here, is a dedication
>This dedicated to those, who've come to an end
>Quit like Gladys Knight...
>You know neither one of us wants
>to be the first one to say goodbye"--waste of time, snoop dog
--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
marika
>
>
> You obviously have NO IDEA what you are talking about, LIAR.
>
Obviously
If you really want to make a dent in someone's credibility but keep your own
the usenet standard is as follows
Discussion followed by comma the person's name comma parentheses if that is
your real name close parentheses
works every time
Not much going on here. Waiting for the bus, I saw a guy with earbuds
attached
to his head singing his head off.
"Don't hate on us, we're fabulous"
And then, I missed entirety of Project RUnway. OUr building
had a party in the tv room because someone from our neigbhorhood is
involved, but
i didn't see the invite til too late.
My parents are coming to see my place on Tuesday. My father has been
fighting the blue screen
of death with his computer.
We will probably both go computer shopping together when we get back.
I'm thinking seriously about Macintosh this time. This is ridiculous.
Even this computer system here in the main office is slow now and they are
supposed
to have a terrific cable connection
I repeat I do not know what I am talking about
mk5000
"In these days
Without synaptic lapse
And level diagnostics detecting
Sensors are functioning optimally."
-Rod Summers, Yesterday
marika
\>
> Tell that to the mountain bikers. They LOVE talking about me, because
> it allows them to avoid talking about the harm that mountain biking
> does. So to help you, I'm attaching the information below.
>
why was that supposed to help _mee_
You have been arguing with these guys forever is a different approach
appropriate
mk5000
"In it y'all, been a Dogg, smoke you like a Menthol
You think you know? But this can't go
You think you'll blow? On my door? "--vato, snoop dog.
Siskuwihane
You posted I work for an airline, that is a lie, that makes you a
LIAR.
magua...@gmail.com
is amiss with you Mike. You make no sense.
Mike Vandeman
No, that is just bad memory. I thought you said you work for an
airline.
magua...@gmail.com
>
> No, that is just bad memory. I thought you said you work for an
> airline.
> --
We thought you said you walked to the airport...we thought you said
you wrote a book...we thought you said "my country had better uses for
my talents back home" in regards to making fun of vets that went to
nam...we could go on and on...but now you state we make up all these
items above that you have said over and over and over in the past. You
have no credibility. Because you deceive and that is a sure sign of a
LIAR.