Low Magick
Essence
places as Low Magick.
In explanation: I've read, most recently in the DMK book,
that Magick is often divided into High and Low forms; with
the workings in the book being the 'High' form. I'm curious
as to what the 'Low' form is and what it entails. Is this
division the same as the White/Black/Grey one listed later
in the same book, or are the arranged in such a way as to be
divided into High White, Low White, High Grey, etc. etc.?
Are there any equivalent texts for learning Low Magick to
the DMK book? Is Low Magick worth study?
Thanks, all...
Essence
paul...@lan2wan.com
> In explanation: I've read, most recently in the DMK book,
> that Magick is often divided into High and Low forms; with
> the workings in the book being the 'High' form. I'm curious
> as to what the 'Low' form is and what it entails.
Don is using High and Low to refer to the levels of ceremony in the magical
style. Low magick may be defined under that model as magick with common
household ingredients: simple spoken charms, no big Names of Power or fancy
sigils and symbols, etc. Using simple materials with qualities assigned by
traditional folklore.
There is also the distinction of High vs. Low in purpose. In this model, High
magick is dedicated to the spiritual evolution of the practitioner, to coming
closer to the Divine, whether viewed as within or without. Low magick is
magick devoted to producing phenomena, especially when those phenomena are
not directly related to the quest for gnosis. In this model, it doesn't
matter how high the liturgical content of the magical system is.
> Is this
> division the same as the White/Black/Grey one listed later
> in the same book, or are the arranged in such a way as to be
> divided into High White, Low White, High Grey, etc. etc.?
The Black/White/Grey thing is Don's codification of the ethical aspects of a
given working, and the ceremonial content of the ritual or spell is
irrelevant. So your second suggestion is closer to his meaning.
> Are there any equivalent texts for learning Low Magick to
> the DMK book? Is Low Magick worth study?
Sure...Scott Cunningham is one of the clearer modern exponents of magick with
a low ceremonial content, and extensive use of the "natural" qualities of
herbs, stones, etc. But collections of charms of this nature go back
centuries. And pretty much everything is worth studying.
Paul
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Hentai
Essence wrote in message <35DCFB96...@unforgettable.com>...
>I'm curious about the aspect of Magic referred to in many
>places as Low Magick.
In most of the circles I've studied, 'High Magick' is seen as philosophical
or ethical Magick, while 'Low Magick' is practical or pragmatic magick.
I.e., High Magick gets you in touch with God, whlie Low Magick gets you in
touch with Mammon. Me, I'll take the cash.
>In explanation: I've read, most recently in the DMK book,
>that Magick is often divided into High and Low forms; with
>the workings in the book being the 'High' form. I'm curious
>as to what the 'Low' form is and what it entails. Is this
>division the same as the White/Black/Grey one listed later
>in the same book, or are the arranged in such a way as to be
>divided into High White, Low White, High Grey, etc. etc.?
Err... you could theoretically see it that way. I prefer to keep the
White/Black division as far away from my mind as possible, I don't like
generating any extra karma subconsciously than I absolutely have to.
>Are there any equivalent texts for learning Low Magick to
>the DMK book? Is Low Magick worth study?
*ponder* I'm sure there are, but most people who study Low Magick enough to
get by probably wouldn't want to be bothered with explaining what they do
unless something was in it for them. As for whether it's worth study,
EVERYTHING is worth study. Low Magick definitely has its uses.
-Hentai
[in vita non pacem est]
kay...@usa.net
Quite nicely put! High magick puts you in touch with your higher self. Low
magick is the rest. As for not wanting to teach low magick... I dont think
all low magick has to be utterly selfish, its just that it doesnt put you in
touch with god (or a higher spirit/self or whatnot...), as high magick do...
It is all kinds of magick that you use for your own purposes. I myself tend
to use a few cantrips of that nature. One I use from time to time increases
my charm, and is simply done, by focusing my being in one place, namely my
body. It increases the feeling of pressence, and suddenly ppl can talk with
me, as they would a close friend.
Another low magick cantrip I use is to deflect smoke, smog, and other
airborne nuicanses, so that I am not bothered by them. Definitely not high
magick, but very pleasant! It is done by establishing a psychic grip in the
unwanted substance, and then flowing energy out from the temples and the base
of the skull, into an expanding sphere, pushing the substance away. It even
works with very light rain.
I have cantrips for many an occasion, but strangely none that attract
money... Perhaps because I perceive that as too selfish, because it will
drain money from somewhere else... and after all, I am in no way a black, or
even grey maje. I only use my magick where it harms none, or where I can help
others.
As for if its worth a study... well, why not, but its not an end unto it
self, nor is it a seperate path to follow. It is more of the added benefit of
being a mage.
Sincerely KayNine
Ge
>
>
> In most of the circles I've studied, 'High Magick' is seen as philosophical
> or ethical Magick, while 'Low Magick' is practical or pragmatic magick.
> I.e., High Magick gets you in touch with God, whlie Low Magick gets you in
> touch with Mammon. Me, I'll take the cash.
And then there's my idea of majik which is a combo of the two. The difference between High and Low
magick reminds me of the seperation between science and religion.
> Err... you could theoretically see it that way. I prefer to keep the
> White/Black division as far away from my mind as possible, I don't like
> generating any extra karma subconsciously than I absolutely have to.
No kidding. Leave black and white to intention. Essence--you'll never be a black maje. It's
impossible for you.
> >Are there any equivalent texts for learning Low Magick to
> >the DMK book? Is Low Magick worth study?
>
> *ponder* I'm sure there are, but most people who study Low Magick enough to
> get by probably wouldn't want to be bothered with explaining what they do
> unless something was in it for them. As for whether it's worth study,
> EVERYTHING is worth study. Low Magick definitely has its uses.
Well, if it's the practical part of magick, I sure as hell hope it has its uses. If you are a
person who depends upon symbols and gestures to perform magick, you are gonna be extremely limited
if someone happens to psychically attack you while driving down the road. Better to depend on
aspirin for that instead.
Maj
Ge
>
>
> It is all kinds of magick that you use for your own purposes. I myself tend
> to use a few cantrips of that nature. One I use from time to time increases
> my charm, and is simply done, by focusing my being in one place, namely my
> body. It increases the feeling of pressence, and suddenly ppl can talk with
> me, as they would a close friend.
>
And what, pray tell, is a cantrip?
Maj
A figment of your imagination
Ge burbled:
>
> And then there's my idea of majik which is a combo of the two.
It struck me recently that majik is exactly like chaos magick. And don't
give me anything about sigils, I was classified a "chaos mage" by someone
else before I even knew what sigils were. In fact, I only learned about
them after subscibing to AMC. And no, they aren't complex, its just giving
an idea to your subconsious and telling it, "Here, work on this while I go
do something else." Or minimizing a program while running on win95.
Something like that. I never even use the damn things. Bleh.
-me!
Ge
You know, we could go through the whole debate again...that "does the term 'majik' need to exist"
thing. I was still convinced after the first run through. I bet you I still will be again. Majik
may be to you the same as chaos magick. To other chaos
mages/magicians/chaotes/whateverthehellyouwanttocallyourself it's fucked up and wrong. I suspect
that one reason you hung out with us is the fact that we're essentially talking about the same
thing. It doesn't matter. My whole point is that I'm being specific. I'm taking a word, defining
it, and letting everyone who talks to me know what I mean when I say it so there's little
subjective interpretation put into it. Maybe I'd be better off calling it "plbt" because that name
is so drastically different that people wouldn't spend so much time trying to tell me how close
"majik" is to "magick."
When I asked what the term magick referred to, I received a plethora of answers. When I asked what
chaos magick referred to, I got just as many. We have, in the space of this NG, taken "majik" ot
refer to a specific way of doing things. There might be no one else in the world who agrees with us
because they're still arguing over whatever it is that they're talking about, but here, when
someone says "majik," you know what they mean (unless you've never been here before and haven't
asked yet).
I was even bolder to propose a functional definition for "magick" so that when I'm not talking
about "majik" that everyone knows what I'm talking about. People have told me that my definition is
crap, but, after hearing numerous differing definitions, I came to the conclusion that mine is no
more crap than anyone else's.
It's the difference between telling someone who knows html to make a background blue vs. making it
"000066."
I'm a virgo. I can get away with it.
Any questions? <grin>
Maj
A figment of your imagination
Ge snarled something in a girly way:
> Then A figment of your imagination wrote:
> >
> > After Ge burbled:
> >
Hey! Hey! I am not entering into THAT argument again, simply because I
couldn't give less of a shit what ANYONE called it.
As long as they don't ask me for love spells.
-me!
"The ground swallows traces of life,
The earth is taken: this is not your home."
-Shapiro, "Travelogue for Exiles"
"Then Matt said, let there be light: and it was groovy."
-Matt
kay...@usa.net
Oops... I borrowed a term from advanced dungeons and dragons. A cantrip is
simply a very small magickal effect, not a ritual or even a spell, but simply
a fast and easy magick effect. Once mastered it takes almost no effort to do.
In other words it is a very minor magickal effect. Sorry for adopting
roleplayer slang, its just that it really hit the spot...
-ZZ
wrote:
>And what, pray tell, is a cantrip?
Main Entry: can·trip
Pronunciation: 'kan-tr&p
Function: noun
Etymology: probably alteration of caltrop
Date: 1719
1 chiefly Scottish : a witch's trick : SPELL
2 chiefly British : HOCUS-POCUS 2
[Definition from the Merriam Webster online dictionary]
-ZZ
Ge
>
> Ge snarled something in a girly way:
>
> > Then A figment of your imagination wrote:
> > >
> > > After Ge burbled:
> > >
>
> Hey! Hey! I am not entering into THAT argument again, simply because I
> couldn't give less of a shit what ANYONE called it.
>
> As long as they don't ask me for love spells.
>
Under most circumstances, I'd ask out of spite, but I don't think Essence would let me get away
with a request for a love spell without a good slap.
<grin>
Maj
Ge
>
> In article <35ECE7...@unforgettable.com>,
> Ge <ma...@unforgettable.com> wrote:
> > kay...@usa.net wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > It is all kinds of magick that you use for your own purposes. I myself tend
> > > to use a few cantrips of that nature. One I use from time to time increases
> > > my charm, and is simply done, by focusing my being in one place, namely my
> > > body. It increases the feeling of pressence, and suddenly ppl can talk with
> > > me, as they would a close friend.
> > >
> >
> >
>
> Oops... I borrowed a term from advanced dungeons and dragons. A cantrip is
> simply a very small magickal effect, not a ritual or even a spell, but simply
> a fast and easy magick effect. Once mastered it takes almost no effort to do.
> In other words it is a very minor magickal effect. Sorry for adopting
> roleplayer slang, its just that it really hit the spot...
>
<laughing> Thanx for the explanation. I remembered what it was right after I clicked "send" but
decided to let it go because I was wondering if you had another meaning beside the roleplaying one.
I've done D&D...as I recall, I was a phoenix by the name of Inakra. <smile>
Maj
Ge
>
> Pronunciation: 'kan-tr&p
> Function: noun
> Etymology: probably alteration of caltrop
> Date: 1719
> 1 chiefly Scottish : a witch's trick : SPELL
> 2 chiefly British : HOCUS-POCUS 2
>
> [Definition from the Merriam Webster online dictionary]
>
> -ZZ
Thank you, ZZ.
:)
Maj
A figment of your imagination
Ge suddenly imagined that:
Just for that, I'll cast a love spell on one of those yappy little dogs,
just to watch it hump your leg.
-me! wicca. bleh. damn flakes. but not all of them. just the ones who think
its cool to be pagan and, like, persecuted and, like, stuff. bleh.
sy.
wrote:
>I've done D&D...as I recall, I was a phoenix by the name of Inakra. <smile>
Hi My name's sy and I once played D&D,
I played a Druid named Telric Treefriend.
Once at varsity, I got drunk and climbed a statue of Joan of Ark,
wrapped my legs around her face and shouted to the crowds milling
below that Joan gave great head.
The former embarasses me more.
sy.
sy.
wrote:
>I was even bolder to propose a functional definition for "magick" so that when I'm not talking
>about "majik" that everyone knows what I'm talking about. People have told me that my definition is
>crap, but, after hearing numerous differing definitions, I came to the conclusion that mine is no
>more crap than anyone else's.
This is because magick is beyond words, words don't work they
distract.
sy.
Ge
You missed. He got my pants instead (and I wasn't in them).
<grr>
Maj
Flare
>
> Essence wrote in message <35DCFB96...@unforgettable.com>...
> >I'm curious about the aspect of Magic referred to in many
> >places as Low Magick.
>
> or ethical Magick, while 'Low Magick' is practical or pragmatic magick.
> I.e., High Magick gets you in touch with God, whlie Low Magick gets you in
> touch with Mammon. Me, I'll take the cash.
Maybe that's why you end up posting so many "Poor pitiful me" posts.
Just a thought...
Flare
Ge
Going by definitions like the one above...
I always thought you had to have a decent grasp on "high magick" before
you could work on the "low magick."
<shrug> I'm just confused...
Maj
Rick
Yeah, you guys are way off. Low magick is everything below the waist.
Rick
Ge
>
> >
> > Going by definitions like the one above...
> >
> > I always thought you had to have a decent grasp on "high magick" before
> > you could work on the "low magick."
> >
> > <shrug> I'm just confused...
>
> Yeah, you guys are way off. Low magick is everything below the waist.
>
> Rick
Oooh...Essence? How does THAT rate me? <grin>
Maj
A figment of your imagination
Rick ejaculated the idea that:
> Ge wrote:
> >
> > Flare wrote:
> > >
> > > Hentai wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Essence wrote in message <35DCFB96...@unforgettable.com>...
> > > > >I'm curious about the aspect of Magic referred to in many
> > > > >places as Low Magick.
> > > >
> > > > In most of the circles I've studied, 'High Magick' is seen as
philosophical
> > > > or ethical Magick, while 'Low Magick' is practical or pragmatic
magick.
> > > > I.e., High Magick gets you in touch with God, whlie Low Magick gets
you in
> > > > touch with Mammon. Me, I'll take the cash.
> > >
> > > Maybe that's why you end up posting so many "Poor pitiful me" posts.
> > >
> > > Just a thought...
> > >
> > > Flare
> >
> > Going by definitions like the one above...
> >
> > I always thought you had to have a decent grasp on "high magick" before
> > you could work on the "low magick."
> >
> > <shrug> I'm just confused...
>
> Yeah, you guys are way off. Low magick is everything below the waist.
>
So belts are a source of Middle magick?
-me! if Colonel Sanders had a car, would it be manual or automatic choke?
sy.
wrote:
>Going by definitions like the one above...
>
>I always thought you had to have a decent grasp on "high magick" before
>you could work on the "low magick."
>
><shrug> I'm just confused...
>
>Maj
Magick is. The high and low are irrelevant. Talking about magick is
masturbation, has it's place but cannot compare to the real thing.
sy.
Essence
>
> Rick wrote:
> >
> > >
> >
> > Yeah, you guys are way off. Low magick is everything below the waist.
> >
>
That depends...your waist or mine? ;op
Ess
A figment of your imagination
sy. <s...@icon.co.za> expunged upon us:
Hmm ... like phone sex or calling a psycic hotline?
A few minutes of cheap (er, expensive) entertainment, but it leaves you
with a general disgust for the human race.
-me!
Ge
<smirk> I think I'll carry on the rest of this conversation in person.
Maj
Graveyard
> Hentai wrote:
> >
> > Essence wrote in message <35DCFB96...@unforgettable.com>...
> > >I'm curious about the aspect of Magic referred to in many
> > >places as Low Magick.
> >
> > In most of the circles I've studied, 'High Magick' is seen as philosophical
> > or ethical Magick, while 'Low Magick' is practical or pragmatic magick.
> > I.e., High Magick gets you in touch with God, whlie Low Magick gets you in
> > touch with Mammon. Me, I'll take the cash.
>
> Maybe that's why you end up posting so many "Poor pitiful me" posts.
>
> Just a thought...
>
> Flare
little more forcefull while High wasn't. Thats why I consider what I do
low,
concedering I get a firm grip on the energies and do what I want with
them.
Graveyard
Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email -- always at Talkway.
http://www.talkway.com
Graveyard
<liquid-...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> As long as they don't ask me for love spells.
>
Do you realize just how many times I have been asked for them posting
on AOL message boards? Too many fricking times
I feel for you.
Hentai
>> >
>>
>> Oooh...Essence? How does THAT rate me? <grin>
>
>That depends...your waist or mine? ;op
You know... I have to deal far too much already with people flirting and
making out in front of me, in person.
-Hentai
[in vita non pacem est]
sy.
<liquid-...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
I wouldn't go that far.
Masturbation can be lots of fun but it'll never be as productive as
sex.
sy.
James Wheat
Essence
>
>
> You know... I have to deal far too much already with people flirting > and making out in front of me, in person.
I'm sorry, Hentai; I didn't realize you had it so hard.
I'll be sure to go totally out of my way in the future to
avoid doing anything that could possibly add to your
horrendous burden.
In the meantime, as a favor to me, could you go just a
smidgen out of your way to get a grip on your rampant
self-pity?
What were those two words? "Poor me"?
If you can't handle the pressures of watching the rest of
humanity interact in a normal everyday fashion, try locking
yourself in a closet. If your load is too heavy to manage,
ask somone you can trust to lock the closet for you.
Essence
Tired of self-righteous Poor Mes -- they remind me too much
of me.
Siv
usual:
> You know... I have to deal far too much already with people flirting and
> making out in front of me, in person.
Hey, Externalized boy - how about you take your whiny, sappy, shitty
little attitude and go stick it up your asshole? Oh, and sorry if you
actually see yourself doing it, I bet that's a pretty disgusting
creatively enhanced image in your mind now, isn't it?
Sheesh - you let yourself be pushed around to such a sickening degree it
even gets on MY nerves, mostly because I used to be so much like you.
The difference between you and me though, is I have self worth instead
of self pity. So go take your self eviscerating reluctance to do
anything, pity, and atleast BURY yourself in it so we don't have to
listen to the whines and moans of Mr. Brent "Poor Little Me" Dill, man
of a thousand pains and trials piling up on his gand ole desk of life.
You know you're full of emotional bullshit, you know how to fix it, you
know what to do to make your extremist-ass self feel better.
But NOOOOoooOOOoooo! You've gotta sit and give it to everyone else who
DOESN'T need it, who DIDN'T make it, and who WON'T take it much longer
before they GO BYE BYE. And while it would be tremendously easy to
remain where you are, hybernating in the long winter of shallow
superficial shit relationships and sympathetic saps who can't help you
except to give you the sadness, soilent self apathy and pity you seem to
enjoy feeding on like a deep black sucking leech; or getting scared like
a small rabbit stuck in a big bloody trap when the prey finally catches
on and leaves you searching for the next victim to suck into your little
pity trap - all because you're too boring and lazy to fix it.
How fucking quaint, loser.
Boredom is an insult to ones self -
Boredom is the state when an individual is to lazy to do anything about
it -
Boredom is a state of amotivational worthlessness that can be quite
healthy, as with all things, in small quantity.
Extremes are where Evil breeds itself.
So tells us, little-bitty pity boy, what's it like in hell?
Jiffey
>remain where you are, hybernating in the long winter of shallow
>superficial shit relationships and sympathetic saps who can't help you
>except to give you the sadness, soilent self apathy and pity you seem to
>enjoy feeding on like a deep black sucking leech; or getting scared like
>a small rabbit stuck in a big bloody trap when the prey finally catches
>on and leaves you searching for the next victim to suck into your little
>pity trap - all because you're too boring and lazy to fix it.
amEN, that was a wonderful sentence--i feel almost inspired to say something
myself except that he already did (err...)...
to hentai--
err, if you don't like watching the rest of the world go by, then turn your
cheek to the interactivity of the human nature--avert your eyes from the horrid
explicence of people actually enjoying their existence. deny existentialism
and be now, don't waste your few precious moments of non-grief. look at what
your complaining about--please tell me you have something better to do than
comment on how jealous you subconscously are of those who can lose themself in
something else instead of mentally masturbating someone else's regurgitated
experience. hey, hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil.
time to break out the counting crows quote:
"she is trapped inside a month of grey
and they take a little every day
she is a victim of her own responses
shackled to a heart that wants to settle
and then runs away
its a sin to be fading endlessly
yeah, but she's alright with me
she is leaving on a walkaway
she is leaving me in dissarray
in the absence of a place to be
seh stands there looking back at me
hesitates, then turns away
she'll change so suddenly
she's just like mercury
yeah, but she's alright with me
keep some sorrow in your
hearts and minds
foir the things that die before their time
for the restelssly abandoned homes
the tired and weary ramblers bones
and stay beside me where i lie
she's inwtined in me
crazy as can be
yeah, but she's alright with me."
--counting crows, "mercury"
actually, now that i think about it--that describes way too many people, but
mebbe i'm messed up--after all i did right that from memory.
later,
j
A figment of your imagination
Jiffey exfoliated:
<snip about hentai>
I do not know you, and I do not know the situation you are in, so I can not
say whether or not you have a right to bitch.
But I consider it rude to express disgust over someone elses' happiness.
And I can find nothing but repulsion for the victim mentality.
Seeing how much you quote the counting crows jif, you sure you're not a
raven in disguise?
-me!
Ge
>
> Hentai wrote:
> >
> >
> > You know... I have to deal far too much already with people flirting > and making out in front of me, in person.
>
> I'll be sure to go totally out of my way in the future to
> avoid doing anything that could possibly add to your
> horrendous burden.
>
> In the meantime, as a favor to me, could you go just a
> smidgen out of your way to get a grip on your rampant
> self-pity?
>
> What were those two words? "Poor me"?
>
> If you can't handle the pressures of watching the rest of
> humanity interact in a normal everyday fashion, try locking
> yourself in a closet. If your load is too heavy to manage,
> ask somone you can trust to lock the closet for you.
>
> Essence
>
> Tired of self-righteous Poor Mes -- they remind me too much
> of me.
Hentai...You'd better pray to the goddess that you never meet any of us in person, because you have
severely prejudiced many people against you. I know that things for you are tough, but many people
have responded with kind words of advice and caring, and you have brushed them off because you were
too busy feeling sorry for yourself. That attitude hurts both you as well as those who offered
their words of good intention.
It's all right for people to post problems here. We have a great smattering of people who have had
numerous experiences that can be helpful to those who accept the help. But when that help is thrown
back into their faces, and complaints of the problem persists, it's out of the hands of those who
can help. Each one of us here has our problems--be it psycho girlfriends with PMS or alcoholic
husbands or houses burning down...whatever--but there is a line between asking for help and
complaining and whining. I think you've crossed that line.
It is not fair to make other people change their attitudes and behavior because you are unhappy
with yourself. You are a wonderful person, but you need a serious change of heart--and you are the
only person who can make the determination to not be the person you seem to resent so much. We will
stand by you as you progress, but you have to start moving. We can't make you walk a new path--only
you can do that.
Have you read the Celestine Prophecy?
Maj
Hentai
philosophical
>> or ethical Magick, while 'Low Magick' is practical or pragmatic magick.
>> I.e., High Magick gets you in touch with God, whlie Low Magick gets you
in
>> touch with Mammon. Me, I'll take the cash.
>
>Maybe that's why you end up posting so many "Poor pitiful me" posts.
>
>Just a thought...
Granted. Although, personally, I don't see most of them as 'poor pitiful me'
posts. Although I can understand how some people would.
Hentai
philosophical
>> > or ethical Magick, while 'Low Magick' is practical or pragmatic magick.
>> > I.e., High Magick gets you in touch with God, whlie Low Magick gets you
in
>> > touch with Mammon. Me, I'll take the cash.
>>
>> Maybe that's why you end up posting so many "Poor pitiful me" posts.
>>
>> Just a thought...
>>
>
>
>Going by definitions like the one above...
>
>I always thought you had to have a decent grasp on "high magick" before
>you could work on the "low magick."
>
><shrug> I'm just confused...
Not really. It *IS* a very good idea, but it's not necessary. You can work
'low magick' just fine without any idea of the higher modes of existance.
You just have to have a knack for throwing your weight around. Low magick is
about what CAN be done, not what SHOULD be done.
Hentai
>Tired of self-righteous Poor Mes -- they remind me too much
>of me.
:) In everything, there is a lesson.
Hentai
Quite interesting, actually. ;) I've always believed, though, that one must
explore the extremes before settling anywhere in the middle.
Now then, before we call this little social experiment to a close, I have a
few simple questions...
1. The whole 'self-pity' schtick has been tried numerous times here, with
varying degrees of sympathy illicited. What causes one person to gain pity
while another gains only contempt?
2. Why is it that those people who are so closest to understanding self-pity
are usually those so loathe to attribute any positive value to it?
3 Where would we all be if we didn't have someone lower than ourselves to
compare to?
-Hentai
[On behalf of all the victims everywhere]
We now conclude this test of the Emotional Response Generator. We now return
you to your regularly scheduled Hentai.
-ZZ
wrote:
>1. The whole 'self-pity' schtick has been tried numerous times here, with
>varying degrees of sympathy illicited. What causes one person to gain pity
>while another gains only contempt?
Whether or not the self-pitier shows any signs of doing anything about
their situation, or is simply content to wallow in it whilst
constantly bitching to everyone about how miserable they are.
>2. Why is it that those people who are so closest to understanding self-pity
>are usually those so loathe to attribute any positive value to it?
Because they understand it. Those who attribute any positive value to
self-pity clearly do not understand it.
>3 Where would we all be if we didn't have someone lower than ourselves to
>compare to?
Equal?
-ZZ
Hentai
person, because you have
>severely prejudiced many people against you. I know that things for you are
tough, but many people
>have responded with kind words of advice and caring, and you have brushed
them off because you were
>too busy feeling sorry for yourself. That attitude hurts both you as well
as those who offered
>their words of good intention.
Perhaps this is a good thing. Some people need some effort to get them
working; others are simply broken. And, perhaps, things aren't nearly so
tough for me as I make them appear to be; perhaps, as I've mentioned
elsewhere, I merely enjoy hearing myself complain.
>It's all right for people to post problems here. We have a great smattering
of people who have had
>numerous experiences that can be helpful to those who accept the help. But
when that help is thrown
>back into their faces, and complaints of the problem persists, it's out of
the hands of those who
>can help. Each one of us here has our problems--be it psycho girlfriends
with PMS or alcoholic
>husbands or houses burning down...whatever--but there is a line between
asking for help and
>complaining and whining. I think you've crossed that line.
How, precisely, does one tell when that line has been crossed? What is the
proper ratio of action to complaint to prevent one's attitude from being
considered self-pitying?
>It is not fair to make other people change their attitudes and behavior
because you are unhappy
>with yourself. You are a wonderful person, but you need a serious change of
heart--and you are the
>only person who can make the determination to not be the person you seem to
resent so much. We will
>stand by you as you progress, but you have to start moving. We can't make
you walk a new path--only
>you can do that.
Which I wil do, conceivably, when I've figured out how.
>Have you read the Celestine Prophecy?
Actually, yes I have, some time ago. I found it rather trite.
Essence
>
> 1. The whole 'self-pity' schtick has been tried numerous times here, with
> varying degrees of sympathy illicited. What causes one person to gain pity
> while another gains only contempt?
The degree and consistance of the self-pity. People who
suffer overwhelming but short bouts with it and then recover
quickly will never become annoying enough to gain contempt.
(If you recall, your "schtick" was recived with sympathy and
encouragement for a few weeks, but rapidly turned stale and
disgusting and has since recieved only contempt.) It's okay
to *have* a problem. To *be* a problem is a different
matter entirely, and you crossed over the line.
> 2. Why is it that those people who are so closest to understanding self-pity
> are usually those so loathe to attribute any positive value to it?
Because they know firsthand exactly how negative it is. Ask
anyone who has lived in Hell to describe it to you; they'll
give you a much, much more dire description than anyone who
looks into Hell from on high. Also, those people who have
been in self-pity mode and have recovered tend to have less
patience for those who sit and spin in their vortex of
self-pity.
> 3 Where would we all be if we didn't have someone lower than ourselves to
> compare to?
This is total bullshit. If we didn't have someone lower
than ourselves to compare to, we'd be Borg. Everyone is
lower than everyone else in some way. I can practically
guarantee that the President of the Church of Latter-Day
Saints, although a very, very good man and quite a power in
the religous world, would get his ass whupped if he entered
in a marathon. I can similarly guarantee that there is no
one in the world who is better than I am at opening my
driver's side car door. You are *all* lower than me in that
respect. ;op
Summary: Your question is meaningless, and thus irrelevant.
Hentai
Essence wrote in message <35F6CFFE...@unforgettable.com>...
>Hentai wrote:
>>
>> 1. The whole 'self-pity' schtick has been tried numerous times here, with
>> varying degrees of sympathy illicited. What causes one person to gain
pity
>> while another gains only contempt?
>
>The degree and consistance of the self-pity. People who
>suffer overwhelming but short bouts with it and then recover
>quickly will never become annoying enough to gain contempt.
What is the quantization of tihs?
>(If you recall, your "schtick" was recived with sympathy and
>encouragement for a few weeks, but rapidly turned stale and
>disgusting and has since recieved only contempt.) It's okay
>to *have* a problem. To *be* a problem is a different
>matter entirely, and you crossed over the line.
*nod* I'm still attempting to interpolate precisely where that line is.
>> 2. Why is it that those people who are so closest to understanding
self-pity
>> are usually those so loathe to attribute any positive value to it?
>
>Because they know firsthand exactly how negative it is. Ask
>anyone who has lived in Hell to describe it to you; they'll
>give you a much, much more dire description than anyone who
>looks into Hell from on high. Also, those people who have
>been in self-pity mode and have recovered tend to have less
>patience for those who sit and spin in their vortex of
>self-pity.
Hrm. I tend not to concur with this, personally. That is, I agree that most
people who have dropped to said state tend to have a low tolerance for it
once they 'recover', but when I'm in my 'life is good' phases, I tend to not
brush people aside because they appear hopelessly miserable.
>> 3 Where would we all be if we didn't have someone lower than ourselves to
>> compare to?
>
>This is total bullshit. If we didn't have someone lower
>than ourselves to compare to, we'd be Borg. Everyone is
>lower than everyone else in some way. I can practically
>guarantee that the President of the Church of Latter-Day
>Saints, although a very, very good man and quite a power in
>the religous world, would get his ass whupped if he entered
>in a marathon. I can similarly guarantee that there is no
>one in the world who is better than I am at opening my
>driver's side car door. You are *all* lower than me in that
>respect. ;op
> Summary: Your question is meaningless, and thus irrelevant.
Ah. Subjectivism. I tend to believe that there *IS* an absolute, concrete
system of judgement, one must merely work hard enough to determine it and it
will become clear. Perhaps this attitude is the source of some of our
differences.
And, incidentally, I would like to take issue with some of the words we're
using; most of my posts are not precisely what I would consider
'self-pitying'. That is, they aren't exclusively (or even primarily) "woe is
me" posts; they're more general "everything is doom and gloom" threads. I'm
not so much self-pitying as exceedingly cynical. My confusion stems from the
fact that I've seen utter cynicism work and be respected in social
situations, but I don't seem to be doing it right. I'm trying to figure out
where my mistake is. My first mistake seemed to be in shrugging the problem
off, something I've seen others do successfully before, but I obviously
don't understand some subtle nuance of the action.
Siv
>
> >So tells us, little-bitty pity boy, what's it like in hell?
>
> Quite interesting, actually. ;) I've always believed, though, that one must
> explore the extremes before settling anywhere in the middle.
Heh - that's a silly thought, seeming as the basic precept of Kabbalism
is to
stay -away- from extremes as to not burn yourself out. Too much of a
good thing
is not a good thing... ever heard that one before? It's one thing to
eat salt,
it's another thing to eat chlorine and sodium and expect to stay alive.
> Now then, before we call this little social experiment to a close, I have a
> few simple questions...
>
> 1. The whole 'self-pity' schtick has been tried numerous times here, with
> varying degrees of sympathy illicited. What causes one person to gain pity
> while another gains only contempt?
Simply an individual's standpoint. I don't believe in pity. I don't
want it,
and I don't need it. I do unto others as I would have them do unto me,
and if
I were in need of pity, I'd expect people to smack me around with the
same verbal
abuse I've delt to you. Maybe one day you'll see the kindness in the
act, for by
not giving you the same energy you must be getting from yourself and the
whole
world around you, minus a few intellegent individuals, I deprive you of
a source
and therefor you must look to alternate realms for your tasty bits. Try
enjoying yourself sometime.
> 2. Why is it that those people who are so closest to understanding self-pity
> are usually those so loathe to attribute any positive value to it?
The positive value of pity is slim. If I were to see a baby child
getting raped
by a fearsome old madman, I'd take pity on the child and go kick the old
fat-n-
fourty's ass. It takes an exteme circumstance for me to purge evil,
since evil
lurks only in the extremes.
> 3 Where would we all be if we didn't have someone lower than ourselves to
> compare to?
I compare to what I see as being the highest form of spiritual being. I
"follow"
my dreams and compare myself to them. I stopped looking at other, "less
fortunate"
folks a -long- time ago. I don't give a damn who or what they are, I
don't need
to compare myself to anyone but myself and that which I see as the
highest.
Your problem is that you're always looking backwards and filling your
self with
garbage, like the idiot that you are. Try looking FORWARD TOWARDS WHAT
YOU WANT
TO MANIFEST AS YOUR OWN BEING sometime. You might get somewhere
healthy, whiner.
> -Hentai
> [On behalf of all the victims everywhere]
Charming - especially being as there ISN'T ANY SUCH THING.
> We now conclude this test of the Emotional Response Generator. We now return
> you to your regularly scheduled Hentai.
Damn, I thought you'd actually grown a personality for a second..
Whelp, I was wrong.
-S-
Essence
>
> And, perhaps, things aren't nearly so
> tough for me as I make them appear to be; perhaps, as I've mentioned
> elsewhere, I merely enjoy hearing myself complain.
And, perhaps, nobody around you really cares whether you're
complaining for your own enjoyment or your own misery -- the
latter is pathetic because it indicates a lack of any
attempt to escape self-pity, and the former is pathetic
because it indicates a lack of awareness that anything but
self-pity is even applicable to life.
> How, precisely, does one tell when that line has been crossed? What is the
> proper ratio of action to complaint to prevent one's attitude from being
> considered self-pitying?
The "proper ratio of action to complaint" is a mind-game
that you're trying to pull, an incredibly typical logical
trap that the self-pitying mindset brings forth to try to
justify it's continued existance. It's raw bullshit; there
is no such ratio.
The proper ratio is 100% action, 0% complaint. But we
realize that's unrealistic, so we have a little give. But
the give (at least in my case) is temporal, not
quantitative. You can't get away with a constant 20%
complaint ratio; you *can* get away with a very short-lived
90% complaint ratio. (Unless you're Maj, in which case you
can (barely) get away with a 3-out-of-4-week 66% complaint
ratio. ;o)
> > We will
> >stand by you as you progress, but you have to start moving. We can't make
> you walk a new path--only
> >you can do that.
>
> Which I will do, conceivably, when I've figured out how.
The first step is to, every time you have the urge to
complain, shut up and sit on it for an hour. Then see if
it's still worth the effort you were going to put into said
complaint in the first place. Once you've learned how much
of your life you spend complaining uselessly, your logical
side will step in and keep the complaints down to the
critical ones so that you have the time and willpower to
start the climb.
Maj can testify to that one.
> >Have you read the Celestine Prophecy?
>
> Actually, yes I have, some time ago. I found it rather trite.
Me, too -- but then, most didactic novels usually are.
Essence
Ge
>
> >So tells us, little-bitty pity boy, what's it like in hell?
>
> Quite interesting, actually. ;) I've always believed, though, that one must
> explore the extremes before settling anywhere in the middle.
>
Nice philosophy...until you involve other people in your extremes.
> Now then, before we call this little social experiment to a close, I have a
> few simple questions...
>
> 1. The whole 'self-pity' schtick has been tried numerous times here, with
> varying degrees of sympathy illicited. What causes one person to gain pity
> while another gains only contempt?
Personal experience, thought patterns, emotional security, ability to cope with other people's
problems, the amount of music one spends time listening to (and what type)...<smile>
> 2. Why is it that those people who are so closest to understanding self-pity
> are usually those so loathe to attribute any positive value to it?
Because (speaking from my personal experience, of course) those people who have been through it
hated themselves for it. It's not the person they hate, it's the behavior. If they didn't like
enduring themselves while going through something like that, why on earth would they tolerate it in
others? I mean...usually, at first, those who are experienced are the first to offer help because
they understand (or think they do). When they see someone who is so far gone that no matter what
they say, it's tossed away like it means nothing, it's rather sickening.
JMO...
>
> 3 Where would we all be if we didn't have someone lower than ourselves to
> compare to?
In pretty sorry shape. Looking at someone lower than ourselves doens't really push us to improve.
It keeps us from falling, though. I don't look for people to step on, I look for people who can
pull me higher. Looking on those you deem beneath you isn't really going to help you progress much.
> We now conclude this test of the Emotional Response Generator. We now return
> you to your regularly scheduled Hentai.
Good.
Maj
Ge
>
> Perhaps this is a good thing. Some people need some effort to get them
> tough for me as I make them appear to be; perhaps, as I've mentioned
> elsewhere, I merely enjoy hearing myself complain.
>
That's nice, dear. Why don't you eMail yourself a letter?
> >It's all right for people to post problems here. We have a great smattering
> of people who have had
> >numerous experiences that can be helpful to those who accept the help. But
> when that help is thrown
> >back into their faces, and complaints of the problem persists, it's out of
> the hands of those who
> >can help. Each one of us here has our problems--be it psycho girlfriends
> with PMS or alcoholic
> >husbands or houses burning down...whatever--but there is a line between
> asking for help and
> >complaining and whining. I think you've crossed that line.
>
> How, precisely, does one tell when that line has been crossed? What is the
> proper ratio of action to complaint to prevent one's attitude from being
> considered self-pitying?
How often do you think of other people before doing something? This is not the first time that
people have told you that they didn't want to hear your complaints. But you didn't seem to care
enough to stop. Selfishness is all well and good. It has its time and place, but so does
consideration for people besides yourself. That's when you cross the line.
People asked you to stop. You didn't. People gave you advice, and your response roughly translated
to: Fuck you. It won't work. When you start treating people like shit--guess what's gonna happen?
They'll do the same to you. And that does absolutely NOTHING for you.
> Which I wil do, conceivably, when I've figured out how.
Why do you have to figure out how first? That's sort of like saying that you won't go to a foreign
country until you can perfectly master the language before you get on the plane. It'll never
happen. You have to start somewhere and learn along the way. Any direction is better than not
moving at all. You're failing because you won't even try.
> >Have you read the Celestine Prophecy?
>
> Actually, yes I have, some time ago. I found it rather trite.
Does that mean you didn't learn anything from it? Too bad. Much of the bok is complete trash, but
it has some great lessons to teach--especially about energy and dealing with people.
Maj
Ge
>
> Summary: Your question is meaningless, and thus irrelevant.
Virgo speaks (with sword in hand):
Essence...if oyu ever say anything like this to anyone I know and care about, I'll kill
you.
<smiling>
Thank you.
Maj
Essence
>
> Essence wrote:
> >
> >The degree and consistance of the self-pity. People who
> >suffer overwhelming but short bouts with it and then recover
> >quickly will never become annoying enough to gain contempt.
>
> What is the quantization of tihs?
I'll let you know just as soon as I'm finished working
through my calculations on the quantization of love.
<sigh> It's not a quantifiable, logical thing and you know
it. The fact that you are so involved in your self-pity
that you even ask -- implying that you would rather know how
much you can get away with than actually *do* something to
get yourself out of it -- is pathetic.
> *nod* I'm still attempting to interpolate precisely where that line is.
It's real simple: the instant you go from a self-respecting
man who is working through a problem to a self-pitying man
who sees nothing but problems, you cross the line.
> That is, I agree that most
> people who have dropped to said state tend to have a low tolerance for it
> once they 'recover', but when I'm in my 'life is good' phases, I tend to not
> brush people aside because they appear hopelessly miserable.
Don't make the (typical) mistake of thinking we're brushing
you aside. If we wanted to brush you aside, we'd just
ignore you as hopeless. Instead, we're talking to you,
trying to get some metacognition happening. We're still
here; we still want to see you get over this -- we're just
damn tired of the bullshit that comes with the wait.
> > Summary: Your question is meaningless, and thus irrelevant.
>
> Ah. Subjectivism. I tend to believe that there *IS* an absolute, concrete
> system of judgement, one must merely work hard enough to determine it and it
> will become clear. Perhaps this attitude is the source of some of our
> differences.
Perhaps, but does it matter? Absolutely speaking, I have no
way of knowing who is lower or higher than me on the scale
because I cannot know the scale. You may be lower than me in
some obvious way, but have some side that I am not aware of
that puts you waay up there above me on whatever absolute
scale you believe in. Your question, then, is still
meaningless and still irrelevant.
As for differences, we really don't have that many...
> And, incidentally, I would like to take issue with some of the words we're
> using; most of my posts are not precisely what I would consider
> 'self-pitying'. That is, they aren't exclusively (or even primarily) "woe is
> me" posts; they're more general "everything is doom and gloom" threads.
I disagree. You do have gloom-and-doom moments; but the
vast majority of your posts lately have been of the
overwhelmingly self-pitying type. The post that started
this thread is a perfect example thereof. You wrote
something like:
> I have enough to bear without having people flirt and make out in front of me.
Which is a painfully self-pitying post. It screams out
three things: first, I'm under a really hard load; second,
people around me are throwing that fact in my face; third,
I'm too pitiful to be able to cope with facts one and two.
Finally, it caps off the self-pitying attitude by putting
out an implied request that people around you go out of
their way to modify their normal behaviour to compensate for
*your* attitude.
This kind of thing is becoming far too typical. I have a
very different image of you than this kind of post shows; I
think of you as a particularly eccentric and opinionated but
experienced man -- all of which are attriubtes I respect.
But it's near-impossible to respect you when you sit there
and spew forth that kind of crap.
> I'm
> not so much self-pitying as exceedingly cynical. My confusion stems from the
> fact that I've seen utter cynicism work and be respected in social
> situations, but I don't seem to be doing it right. I'm trying to figure out
> where my mistake is.
Your basic mistake is your location. Trying to be utterly
cynical in a group full of people who believe that a)
people are in control of their own lives and b) being a
downer to people around you is both antisocial and
nonproductive is kind of silly, hmm?
> My first mistake seemed to be in shrugging the problem
> off, something I've seen others do successfully before, but I obviously
> don't understand some subtle nuance of the action.
Most likely that subtle nuance was that the people around
them let them get away with it. We're not likely to do so;
too many of us have been there and hate to see other people
in that situation.
Ess
Ge
>
> *nod* I'm still attempting to interpolate precisely where that line is.
>
I don't think you can. Each person has a tolerance level for others sliding down the spiral of
self-pity, and some can handle it more effectively, more patiently, and more efficiently. You have
to be aware enough of other people to be able to sense where that line is. And in that respect, you
have to let go of logic for a second and rely on intuition. <ack!!! I can't believe I'm saying this
stuff...Damned intuition!!!>
> >> 2. Why is it that those people who are so closest to understanding
> self-pity
> >> are usually those so loathe to attribute any positive value to it?
> >
> >Because they know firsthand exactly how negative it is. Ask
> >anyone who has lived in Hell to describe it to you; they'll
> >give you a much, much more dire description than anyone who
> >looks into Hell from on high. Also, those people who have
> >been in self-pity mode and have recovered tend to have less
> >patience for those who sit and spin in their vortex of
> >self-pity.
>
> Hrm. I tend not to concur with this, personally. That is, I agree that most
> people who have dropped to said state tend to have a low tolerance for it
> once they 'recover', but when I'm in my 'life is good' phases, I tend to not
> brush people aside because they appear hopelessly miserable.
Most people are willing to help. You saw that a majority of the first responses were fairly
positive. But your response to those who offered advice, energy, and time was little more than rude
and inconsiderate.
Let's say a woman fell off her bike in the street. A neighbor runs outside to assist while another
calls an ambulance. Her leg is broken. Everything seems to be going well until the ambulance
arrives. At which point, the woman with the broken leg turns down all the help offered her in order
to stay in the street and scream because she is in pain. She refuses first aid. She won't get up.
She won't call anyone she knows in order to get help. She just sits in the road and screams because
she like to hear herself. If you get near her, she'll lash out at you and tell you to stay away.
Not only does the woman seem pretty foolish, but after a while, the neighbors feel sorry that they
even tried in the first place. They could have gone off and done something else that would have
made more of a difference. And now, they have the screams of the woman to listen to. How do you
suppose they feel?
Yes, I'm sure that woman is in extreme pain--what about her? If she refuses all help, what can you
do but wait until she passes out from blood loss, exhaustion, whatever? Nothing. Paraphrasing the
Dalai Lama--Why bother to worry if there is nothing you can do about it?
> Ah. Subjectivism. I tend to believe that there *IS* an absolute, concrete
> system of judgement, one must merely work hard enough to determine it and it
> will become clear. Perhaps this attitude is the source of some of our
> differences.
I'm sure this holds true if you are a machine. Look at all the people around you. You are not
dealing with rational computers. You are not dealing with living creatures that run on principles
of logic and rhetoric. You are dealing with 6 billion people who have had different experiences,
different beliefs, differing levels of intelligence, different thought processes, different
memories, different associations, different cultures. Not one person is a duplicate of another.
Until you find your utopian judgement, I advise you to become really familiar with the world as it
exists.
> And, incidentally, I would like to take issue with some of the words we're
> using; most of my posts are not precisely what I would consider
> 'self-pitying'. That is, they aren't exclusively (or even primarily) "woe is
> me" posts; they're more general "everything is doom and gloom" threads. I'm
> not so much self-pitying as exceedingly cynical. My confusion stems from the
> fact that I've seen utter cynicism work and be respected in social
> situations, but I don't seem to be doing it right. I'm trying to figure out
> where my mistake is. My first mistake seemed to be in shrugging the problem
> off, something I've seen others do successfully before, but I obviously
> don't understand some subtle nuance of the action.
Cynical is outward. It has little involvement with personal issues. Self-pity revolves around
yourself. Telling people that you don't want to see them flirting because you can't get any is
directly revolving around you. Telling people that you can't see the light because whatever
suggested won't work revolves directly around you. According to my dictionary, a cynic is a person
who "is distrusting or disparaging the motives of others." it goes on to say that the word
"implies the holding of a low opinion of mankind." The only opinion you have demonstrated is a low
one for yourself, not others.
Maj
Ge
>
> It's one thing to
> eat salt,
> it's another thing to eat chlorine and sodium and expect to stay alive.
>
<laughing hysterically> Siv...this one is so good. It's gonna have to go in my greatest quotes
book!!!
> > 1. The whole 'self-pity' schtick has been tried numerous times here, with
> > varying degrees of sympathy illicited. What causes one person to gain pity
> > while another gains only contempt?
>
> Simply an individual's standpoint. I don't believe in pity. I don't
> want it,
> and I don't need it. I do unto others as I would have them do unto me,
> and if
> I were in need of pity, I'd expect people to smack me around with the
> same verbal
> abuse I've delt to you. Maybe one day you'll see the kindness in the
> act, for by
> not giving you the same energy you must be getting from yourself and the
> whole
> world around you, minus a few intellegent individuals, I deprive you of
> a source
> and therefor you must look to alternate realms for your tasty bits. Try
> enjoying yourself sometime.
>
Nice point, Siv. I think I was gracelessly trying to point that out earlier.
> Your problem is that you're always looking backwards and filling your
> self with
> garbage, like the idiot that you are. Try looking FORWARD TOWARDS WHAT
> YOU WANT
> TO MANIFEST AS YOUR OWN BEING sometime. You might get somewhere
> healthy, whiner.
<sigh> Hentai..Siv may not be blessed with large amounts of tact, but I beg of you not to throw
this advice away because of his words.
> > [On behalf of all the victims everywhere]
>
> Charming - especially being as there ISN'T ANY SUCH THING.
A victim is made by their attitude. You don't have to be a victim. You choose to be a victim.
Maj
Dark-Fate
>-me! wicca. bleh. damn flakes. but not all of them. just the ones who think
>its cool to be pagan and, like, persecuted and, like, stuff. bleh.
>
NOD NOD
A figment of your imagination
Hentai warbled:
>
Pity is a polite emotion. It allows you to feel something so as not to
appear a cold, heartless bastard.
"I pity you" sounds much better than, "I really don't give a damn, and I'm
really not going to do anything, but I want something to say, to keep up
appearances, even to myself."
You can pity yourself all you want. But don't expect others to, especially
not continuosly.
-me!
A figment of your imagination
Ge <ma...@unforgettable.com> wrote in article
<35F769...@unforgettable.com>...
> Essence wrote:
> >
> > Summary: Your question is meaningless, and thus irrelevant.
>
> Virgo speaks (with sword in hand):
>
> Essence...if oyu ever say anything like this to anyone I know and care
about, I'll kill
> you.
>
Essence has a valid point. The saying is, that every question is not
meaningless, but one asked merely to provoke, is.
That was correct grammar, it just used so many passive verbs it doesn't
look like it.
Thank you.
-me
Hentai
choose to be a victim.
Again, I tend to disagree with this sentiment; perhaps this goes back to my
mechanistic view of the universe. I tend to see what most people call
'choice' as an illusion; given a specific set of information, there's really
only one choice that a person will make based upon that information.
Free-will is nothing more than an illusion caused by a high sensitivity to
changes in initial conditions.
Hentai
Ge wrote in message <35F771...@unforgettable.com>...
>Hentai wrote:
>>
>> *nod* I'm still attempting to interpolate precisely where that line is.
>>
>
>I don't think you can. Each person has a tolerance level for others sliding
down the spiral of
>self-pity, and some can handle it more effectively, more patiently, and
more efficiently. You have
>to be aware enough of other people to be able to sense where that line is.
And in that respect, you
>have to let go of logic for a second and rely on intuition. <ack!!! I can't
believe I'm saying this
>stuff...Damned intuition!!!>
*nod* I freely and wholely admit to a lack of awareness of other people.
Likewise, intuition is something of a foreign concept to me.
>
>> >> 2. Why is it that those people who are so closest to understanding
>> self-pity
>> >> are usually those so loathe to attribute any positive value to it?
>> >
>> >Because they know firsthand exactly how negative it is. Ask
>> >anyone who has lived in Hell to describe it to you; they'll
>> >give you a much, much more dire description than anyone who
>> >looks into Hell from on high. Also, those people who have
>> >been in self-pity mode and have recovered tend to have less
>> >patience for those who sit and spin in their vortex of
>> >self-pity.
>>
>> Hrm. I tend not to concur with this, personally. That is, I agree that
most
>> people who have dropped to said state tend to have a low tolerance for it
>> once they 'recover', but when I'm in my 'life is good' phases, I tend to
not
>> brush people aside because they appear hopelessly miserable.
>
>Most people are willing to help. You saw that a majority of the first
responses were fairly
>positive. But your response to those who offered advice, energy, and time
was little more than rude
>and inconsiderate.
Granted. Most of my confusion lied with not understanding where and why the
change occured. However, after sufficient bludgeoning with the point, I
believe that I now understand my basic error. I'm still trying to work out a
suitable alternative, of course, given a similar situation in the future.
>> Ah. Subjectivism. I tend to believe that there *IS* an absolute, concrete
>> system of judgement, one must merely work hard enough to determine it and
it
>> will become clear. Perhaps this attitude is the source of some of our
>> differences.
>
>I'm sure this holds true if you are a machine. Look at all the people
around you. You are not
>dealing with rational computers. You are not dealing with living creatures
that run on principles
>of logic and rhetoric. You are dealing with 6 billion people who have had
different experiences,
>different beliefs, differing levels of intelligence, different thought
processes, different
>memories, different associations, different cultures. Not one person is a
duplicate of another.
>Until you find your utopian judgement, I advise you to become really
familiar with the world as it
>exists.
*ponder* I must admit to some degree of naivete regarding the thoughts and
desires of other human beings; I tend to view things MUCH more
mechanistically, and tend to believe that as long as logic and rhetoric are
stuck to, everything will work out for the better in the end. The one piece
of faith I have managed to hold onto throughout most of my adult life has
been faith in Logic, simply because any breaks I have found in the system of
logic result in an utter inability to deal with reality on any level. I
fully realize that it is possible for logic to be in error, but if it is,
then EVERYTHING is in error, and there's really no point to trying. I prefer
to try.
>Cynical is outward. It has little involvement with personal issues.
Self-pity revolves around
>yourself. Telling people that you don't want to see them flirting because
you can't get any is
>directly revolving around you. Telling people that you can't see the light
because whatever
Granted, that specific statement was somewhat self-pitying. However, the
actual intent wasn't nearly as self-pitying as it came out. My main error,
in my opinion, was in posting before giving myself sufficient time to
properly word the post. The emotion I wanted to convey was annoyance with
people who flirt in public in general, with a specific personal example for
why I felt it was inappropriate. Even when I was in a relationship, I tried
to keep things quiet and subdued, mostly because a significant number of
acquaintances had given me the same line that I gave you two [although with
much more guilt involved]. Perhaps I was in error, either in making the
correlation or in delivering the message.
>suggested won't work revolves directly around you. According to my
dictionary, a cynic is a person
>who "is distrusting or disparaging the motives of others." it goes on to
say that the word
>"implies the holding of a low opinion of mankind." The only opinion you
have demonstrated is a low
>one for yourself, not others.
I have a low opinion of myself only inasmuch as I am a member of humanity.
My opinion of myself seems lower at times than my opinion of others only
because I am more acquainted with my own humanity than I am of others'.
A figment of your imagination
Dark-Fate sung like a dove (who is only a raven with a good bleach job):
Yay! Someone who agrees with my slightly distorted world view.
It really irritates me that one of the new 'in' things for kids to rebel is
to turn to wicca and new-age spiritualism. (i.e., anything not Xian that
their parents will scream at them for being satanists about and then run
around complaining about how persecuted they are for their non-mainstream
religion even though they chose it for that very reason, and to look cool
to all their little maralyn-manson-goth and skaterpunk friends and threaten
people to put a curse on anyone they dont like while in reality only
leaving messes for someone like me [who may not have a clue, but has more
than these little gits] not for some higher reason or because they believe
in transendence or any hundred million reasons people have for Awakening
and the evolution of soul, but anyway ... )
<sigh> To illistrate my point, but not really having anything to do with
it, I was walking out of the movie theater from seeing Blade (neat movie
btw, if taken for eyecandy and not much else) and I overheard a girl say,
"Blade was very unrealistic. I read the Book of Nod, which is like the
vampire bible, and Blade is way off the mark."
Not the exact quote, but close. Makes you wonder why some people are ever
allowed to breed.
-me!
A figment of your imagination
Hentai splurted:
>
<snip>
>
> *ponder* I must admit to some degree of naivete regarding the thoughts
and
> desires of other human beings; I tend to view things MUCH more
> mechanistically, and tend to believe that as long as logic and rhetoric
are
> stuck to, everything will work out for the better in the end. The one
piece
> of faith I have managed to hold onto throughout most of my adult life has
> been faith in Logic, simply because any breaks I have found in the system
of
> logic result in an utter inability to deal with reality on any level. I
> fully realize that it is possible for logic to be in error, but if it is,
> then EVERYTHING is in error, and there's really no point to trying. I
prefer
> to try.
Yes. Perhaps everything is pre-determined. That means you do not HAVE to do
anything. You do not HAVE to breathe. You do not HAVE to eat. But there are
consequenses to every action.
I understand that point of view, since I am not an emotional person, but
being as I am a creature of impulse and instinct, I also realize that life
is messy sometimes. Logic does not apply to every situation, like magick
and emotions. But you believe those exist, don't you? Or do you merely
accept them without actually believing? You are not completely cold; you
merely struggle to hide emotion and deal with it on a mental level.
Logic may be complete, as there are things that have their own rules that
we do not fully comprehend. But too rigid of logic, and a belief in the
occult make for a nasty mix. If you do ever encounter a complete breach of
reality, like a tv playing itself without being plugged in, you can drive
yourself insane trying to explain it instead of just accepting it for a
peculiarity.
> >Cynical is outward. It has little involvement with personal issues.
> Self-pity revolves around
> >yourself. Telling people that you don't want to see them flirting
because
> you can't get any is
> >directly revolving around you. Telling people that you can't see the
light
> because whatever
>
>
> Granted, that specific statement was somewhat self-pitying. However, the
> actual intent wasn't nearly as self-pitying as it came out. My main
error,
> in my opinion, was in posting before giving myself sufficient time to
> properly word the post. The emotion I wanted to convey was annoyance with
> people who flirt in public in general, with a specific personal example
for
> why I felt it was inappropriate. Even when I was in a relationship, I
tried
> to keep things quiet and subdued, mostly because a significant number of
> acquaintances had given me the same line that I gave you two [although
with
> much more guilt involved]. Perhaps I was in error, either in making the
> correlation or in delivering the message.
And you are unable to tell the person, that unless they call the police to
report a disturbance, they can jolly well go fuck themselves?
If I was your girlfriend, I would translate being unable to show feelings
in public as to being ashamed of having those feelings. And I would
consider my SO far more importiant than an aquaintance, unless in a
buisness or job-type setting where, yes, it would be improper.
In my opinion, its not heathy.
-me!
Dark-Fate
more like realistic.. i hate these trendy bi-sexual blood-sucking witches
who think they know everything.... lil wanna be goths.. blah dont get me
started
>It really irritates me that one of the new 'in' things for kids to rebel is
>to turn to wicca and new-age spiritualism. (i.e., anything not Xian that
>their parents will scream at them for being satanists about and then run
>around complaining about how persecuted they are for their non-mainstream
>religion even though they chose it for that very reason, and to look cool
>to all their little maralyn-manson-goth and skaterpunk friends and threaten
>people to put a curse on anyone they dont like while in reality only
>leaving messes for someone like me [who may not have a clue, but has more
>than these little gits] not for some higher reason or because they believe
>in transendence or any hundred million reasons people have for Awakening
>and the evolution of soul, but anyway ... )
Tell it like it is!! :P I agree whole heartedly.. i would write more but
that sums it up better then I ever could
><sigh> To illistrate my point, but not really having anything to do with
>it, I was walking out of the movie theater from seeing Blade (neat movie
>btw, if taken for eyecandy and not much else) and I overheard a girl say,
>"Blade was very unrealistic. I read the Book of Nod, which is like the
>vampire bible, and Blade is way off the mark."
Loved the move.. was good for fun not as reality.. plus it was a vampire
HUNTER so I loved it more.. I heard similar comments like you did.. but then
I had this awesome group of teenagers behind me making such wonderful quotes
as "I wouldnt be caught undead in that" when a group of "wanna-be" loser
gothic wannabes came in.. was quite fun :)
>-me!
hey im me too! :P (BTW loved the dove being a bleached raven.. for the raven
holds a close spot in my heart)
-ZZ
This is nothing more than an excuse. You're just trying to blaim the
universe for your pain. "It's not my fault, I'm predestined to be
miserable. There's nothing I can do."
As long as you maintain that attitude, you're right, you will remain
miserable and there is nothing you can do. It's a self-fulfilling
prophecy.
You need to accept responsibility for your own life, to realise that
if anyone is going to make you happy, it's you. No-one else is going
to change that for you.
Your 'true love' might come along, and you'll become happy. But it
won't be them changing you, it'll be you having a reason to change
yourself. That's what you need to find, a reason to change, to accept
that what happends to you is up to you (within certain operational
limits).
-ZZ
kay...@usa.net
> >1. The whole 'self-pity' schtick has been tried numerous times here, with
> >varying degrees of sympathy illicited. What causes one person to gain pity
> >while another gains only contempt?
If people seems to be stuck in their situation, and unwilling to do what they
can to improve it, they will only gain contempt. If you appear to be trying,
but down on your luck, well then its another matter entirely...
> >2. Why is it that those people who are so closest to understanding self-pity
> >are usually those so loathe to attribute any positive value to it?
Because those of us who have been buried in self-pity knows all to well that
it wasnt self-pity that got us out of there... It was determination and
anger. Self-pity is the ultimate surrender.
> >3 Where would we all be if we didn't have someone lower than ourselves to
> >compare to?
I dont know... Kansas, Toto?
Sincerely KayNine
>
> Equal?
>
> -ZZ
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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Ge
>
> >A victim is made by their attitude. You don't have to be a victim. You
> choose to be a victim.
>
> Again, I tend to disagree with this sentiment; perhaps this goes back to my
> mechanistic view of the universe. I tend to see what most people call
> 'choice' as an illusion; given a specific set of information, there's really
> only one choice that a person will make based upon that information.
> Free-will is nothing more than an illusion caused by a high sensitivity to
> changes in initial conditions.
>
> [in vita non pacem est]
Gee, I'm really glad I'm not you.
Maj
Essence
>
> >A victim is made by their attitude. You don't have to be a victim. You
> choose to be a victim.
>
> Again, I tend to disagree with this sentiment; perhaps this goes back to my
> mechanistic view of the universe. I tend to see what most people call
> 'choice' as an illusion; given a specific set of information, there's really
> only one choice that a person will make based upon that information.
> Free-will is nothing more than an illusion caused by a high sensitivity to
> changes in initial conditions.
That may be. But regardless of the fact that this
philosophy (conviently) allows you to totally abdicate
responsibility for your actions, you nonetheless cannot
abdicate the responsibility you have for the ripples your
actions make. I couldn't care less if you don't have free
will, if you kill my sister, I will make sure you spend the
rest of your life in jail. Similarly, if you insist on
forcing your self-pity down my throat, I don't care if you
don't have free will, I'm still going to treat you like the
broken-legged woman in Maj's earlier post.
Essence
Flare
>
> >So tells us, little-bitty pity boy, what's it like in hell?
>
> Quite interesting, actually. ;) I've always believed, though, that one must
> explore the extremes before settling anywhere in the middle.
>
> few simple questions...
>
> varying degrees of sympathy illicited. What causes one person to gain pity
> while another gains only contempt?
>
Aspiration.
You give pity to someone who's down, but working to get themselves out.
You give contempt to someone who's down and wants to drag everyone down
with them.
> 2. Why is it that those people who are so closest to understanding self-pity
> are usually those so loathe to attribute any positive value to it?
Because if you understand it, you realize that it's worthless shit?
>
> 3 Where would we all be if we didn't have someone lower than ourselves to
> compare to?
Humble. It's not a bad state and it's one you should try out. You're
the only person who
has a superiority complex about their inferiority complex. "I have it
worse than all of
you could ever dream." It's narcissistic shit.
Flare
Hentai
>> compare to?
>
>Humble. It's not a bad state and it's one you should try out. You're
>the only person who
>has a superiority complex about their inferiority complex. "I have it
>worse than all of
>you could ever dream." It's narcissistic shit.
I never meant to give that impression; I don't believe that I necessarily
have it worse than anyone here. In fact, I have it significantly better in
many ways. I merely complain more vocally than most people about those
things which I dislike. And, incidentally, I *AM* working towards changing
them - a majority of them have already been resolved. My main concern at the
moment is attempting to determine what types of comments are socially
appropriate, and what aren't.
Ge
I was reading Hentai's words over and over in my mind, and surprised myself with my response.
Personally, philosophies are just a tool for me. Like Rick and his hats of belief...
And you know what? I'd rather choose to live with the concept that we do have our own
choice--though it may be delusion--because I won't be able to condemn myself before I do something.
I will have the illusion that I can do something about it, and I'll keep moving towards changing my
attitude. By that logic, the actions of myself will propel me towards positive action and I will
not be able to be miserable.
Delusions can be grand...
Maj
Ge
Don't talk. Listen. Listen to everyone you meet. Don't just heaer what they're saying, listen to
what they're saying. It's so much more than words and dictionary meanings.
That's the best way to learn.
Maj
Hentai
with my response.
>
>Personally, philosophies are just a tool for me. Like Rick and his hats of
belief...
>
>And you know what? I'd rather choose to live with the concept that we do
have our own
>choice--though it may be delusion--because I won't be able to condemn
myself before I do something.
>I will have the illusion that I can do something about it, and I'll keep
moving towards changing my
>attitude. By that logic, the actions of myself will propel me towards
positive action and I will
>not be able to be miserable.
>
>Delusions can be grand...
This is a very, very wise view to uphold, and one I wish I could share. For
me, likewise, philosophies are merely tools, but I require that they fit my
personal experience. And it has been my personal experience that bad things
tend to happen because people are stupid, while good things tend to happen
because people are lucky.
Ge
>
>
> > How, precisely, does one tell when that line has been crossed? What is the
> > proper ratio of action to complaint to prevent one's attitude from being
> > considered self-pitying?
>
> that you're trying to pull, an incredibly typical logical
> trap that the self-pitying mindset brings forth to try to
> justify it's continued existance. It's raw bullshit; there
> is no such ratio.
>
> The proper ratio is 100% action, 0% complaint. But we
> realize that's unrealistic, so we have a little give. But
> the give (at least in my case) is temporal, not
> quantitative. You can't get away with a constant 20%
> complaint ratio; you *can* get away with a very short-lived
> 90% complaint ratio. (Unless you're Maj, in which case you
> can (barely) get away with a 3-out-of-4-week 66% complaint
> ratio. ;o)
>
As long as I think about the effect on other people, I can get away with anything I want to. As
long as I take into consideration how you might feel if I decide to be pissed about one thing or
another...I'll be OK. It's when I'm being an inconsiderate bitch that I begin to have problems.
<smiling sweetly> And we all know that NEVER happens. <smirk>
> The first step is to, every time you have the urge to
> complain, shut up and sit on it for an hour.
For a beginner--try one minute. I know you like precision--so time yourself. When I first did it, I
was HORRIFIED at how...<thinking of a suitable word> thoughtlessly I treated the people around me.
And the amount of complaining I did made me want to run and hide.
> Then see if
> it's still worth the effort you were going to put into said
> complaint in the first place. Once you've learned how much
> of your life you spend complaining uselessly, your logical
> side will step in and keep the complaints down to the
> critical ones so that you have the time and willpower to
> start the climb.
>
> Maj can testify to that one.
>
There are going to be times when you can't let something go. There are times when something is
going to bother you so badly that you won'tbe able to stand it. That's OK. But on a constant basis,
it's unacceptable. Walk around for one day with duct tape on your mouth (put on chapstick first,
and shave well). It's a nice reminder. I did that my freshman year of highschool--during school. I
should do it more often.
Maj
Ge
>
> *nod* I freely and wholely admit to a lack of awareness of other people.
You don't have to admit it. It's pretty obvious.
> Likewise, intuition is something of a foreign concept to me.
Ditto on that one, too. Intuition is something that is taking me a tremendous amount of time to
trust in. But, logic has proven it reliable, and so I rely on it.
> >Most people are willing to help. You saw that a majority of the first
> responses were fairly
> >positive. But your response to those who offered advice, energy, and time
> was little more than rude
> >and inconsiderate.
>
> Granted. Most of my confusion lied with not understanding where and why the
> change occured. However, after sufficient bludgeoning with the point, I
> believe that I now understand my basic error. I'm still trying to work out a
> suitable alternative, of course, given a similar situation in the future.
Instead of putting responsibility for your situation on other people, put it on yourself. Example:
If you have few friends, and want more, don't say something like, "Nobody likes me. Why?"
Try something like, "What can I do to improve my relationship with people around me?"
> *ponder* I must admit to some degree of naivete regarding the thoughts and
> desires of other human beings; I tend to view things MUCH more
> mechanistically, and tend to believe that as long as logic and rhetoric are
> stuck to, everything will work out for the better in the end. The one piece
> of faith I have managed to hold onto throughout most of my adult life has
> been faith in Logic, simply because any breaks I have found in the system of
> logic result in an utter inability to deal with reality on any level. I
> fully realize that it is possible for logic to be in error, but if it is,
> then EVERYTHING is in error, and there's really no point to trying. I prefer
> to try.
Logic and rhetoric will only work if you are not dealing with anything living. I often wonder why
people looking for the office supply store next to where I work park right in front of the store,
and then proceed to walk 50 yards out of their way to enter the wrong store. It's not like there
are no signs to show where the stores are. No logic will ever explain phenomenon like this, and
I've coem to the conclusion that if I sit around wondering about too many things like this, my
brain will rot and I'll waste a lot of time when I could be reading Realms of Fantasy
Magazine...which is definitely more mentally stimulating, more graphically appealing, and much
healthier for my patience levels, too.
> >Cynical is outward. It has little involvement with personal issues.
> Self-pity revolves around
> >yourself. Telling people that you don't want to see them flirting because
> you can't get any is
> >directly revolving around you. Telling people that you can't see the light
> because whatever
>
> Granted, that specific statement was somewhat self-pitying. However, the
> actual intent wasn't nearly as self-pitying as it came out. My main error,
> in my opinion, was in posting before giving myself sufficient time to
> properly word the post.
Ahh...The famous "think before you speak" advice is whispering in my head.
> The emotion I wanted to convey was annoyance with
> people who flirt in public in general, with a specific personal example for
> why I felt it was inappropriate. Even when I was in a relationship, I tried
> to keep things quiet and subdued, mostly because a significant number of
> acquaintances had given me the same line that I gave you two [although with
> much more guilt involved]. Perhaps I was in error, either in making the
> correlation or in delivering the message.
>
It actually is rather surprising--mainly because of the fact that many people flirt back and forth
on this NG--even when we're involved with someone else. Why does it bother you so much?
> >suggested won't work revolves directly around you. According to my
> dictionary, a cynic is a person
> >who "is distrusting or disparaging the motives of others." it goes on to
> say that the word
> >"implies the holding of a low opinion of mankind." The only opinion you
> have demonstrated is a low
> >one for yourself, not others.
>
> I have a low opinion of myself only inasmuch as I am a member of humanity.
> My opinion of myself seems lower at times than my opinion of others only
> because I am more acquainted with my own humanity than I am of others'.
>
Just remember: There is NO excuse for your behavior. NONE whatsoever.
Maj
A figment of your imagination
Dark-Fate broke the sound barrier while typing:
> >Yay! Someone who agrees with my slightly distorted world view.
>
>
> more like realistic.. i hate these trendy bi-sexual blood-sucking witches
> who think they know everything.... lil wanna be goths.. blah dont get me
> started
Yah. Most "goths" are posers (egomaniacal psuedo-intellectuals) or wannabes
(under 14 and have some weird fetish for manson). I do know one or two that
are truely cool. One of whom I picked up hitchhiking.
I try to keep nothing about myself realistic. In fact, the term "slightly
irreverant" is what is most appropriate to me. If everyone looked at things
the same, the entire picture would never be seen.
<snippage>
>
> Tell it like it is!! :P I agree whole heartedly.. i would write more but
> that sums it up better then I ever could
Why thank you.
> Loved the move.. was good for fun not as reality.. plus it was a vampire
> HUNTER so I loved it more.. I heard similar comments like you did.. but
then
> I had this awesome group of teenagers behind me making such wonderful
quotes
> as "I wouldnt be caught undead in that" when a group of "wanna-be" loser
> gothic wannabes came in.. was quite fun :)
Oi. Thats all that needs to be said.
> >-me!
>
>
> hey im me too! :P (BTW loved the dove being a bleached raven.. for the
raven
> holds a close spot in my heart)
No, I think I'm much better at being me than you ever could.
I like ravens too. Kaw. Kaw.
-me!
Essence
>
> And it has been my personal experience that bad things
> tend to happen because people are stupid, while good things tend to happen
> because people are lucky.
Let me get this straight. Everything bad happens because
you suck, and everything good happens because things just
happened to work out that one time, even though you suck?
Dear Lady, no wonder you're stuck in an inescapable vortex
of hopelessness and self-pity. Go home and re-read The
Fountainhead.
Essence
Flare
>
> Don't talk. Listen. Listen to everyone you meet. Don't just heaer what they're saying, listen to
> what they're saying. It's so much more than words and dictionary meanings.
>
> That's the best way to learn.
>
Agreed.
Here's a point that's been rattling around in my head, so I'm gonna
let it run free. Call it Flare's Communication 101.
One thing that a majority of people don't realize is that the meaning
that comes out of your mouth isn't the meaning that goes in someone
else's ears. The words might be the same, but the content isn't.
To take a blatant example, take someone from America in the 1800s of
secondary education or less. To them, a person of African decent
(the PC term of today) was probably called a nigger. There wasn't
the totally awful meaning that the word has today... It was just
a mispronunciation of the word negro. Put that person in society
today and his method of speaking would cause no small amount of ruckus,
even though his intentions might be good.
When you speak, it doesn't matter what you think you mean. It matters
what the other person -thinks- you mean. "Wait. Why should I have to
change my habits just to accomodate someone else? It's my right to
speak however I choose." That's true, but it depends on your goal.
If your goal is to communicate well, you've got to learn about the
people you're speaking to and couch your language in terms that will
convey the meaning that you want.
If you have to say "But I didn't mean that!" it means that you failed
to communicate well, not that the person failed to understand you. (It
may be a combination of both, but -you- are the only variable you can
change).
Food for thought,
Flare
Ge
>
> I understand that point of view, since I am not an emotional person, but
> being as I am a creature of impulse and instinct, I also realize that life
> is messy sometimes. Logic does not apply to every situation, like magick
> and emotions. But you believe those exist, don't you? Or do you merely
> accept them without actually believing? You are not completely cold; you
> merely struggle to hide emotion and deal with it on a mental level.
>
> Logic may be complete, as there are things that have their own rules that
> we do not fully comprehend. But too rigid of logic, and a belief in the
> occult make for a nasty mix. If you do ever encounter a complete breach of
> reality, like a tv playing itself without being plugged in, you can drive
> yourself insane trying to explain it instead of just accepting it for a
> peculiarity.
>
I believe in a fairly logical world. Those things that I cannot explain are really "things that I
cannot explain...YET". In all things, it will come--whatever "it" is. But you may have to accept
something before the explanation in order to progress. "Why" is my favorite question, but
sometimes, you have to sit back and watch and answer "why" later. Emotions, no matter what the
scientists say, are more than neurotransmitters and firing neurons. It doesn't make any sense that
the words a person says can change the chemical composition of your brain in 15 seconds flat in
order to change your mood from happy to angry. And those same words, when uttered to another
person, don't make any change at all. It doesn't quite add up that someone holding their arms
around you can alter your brain chemistry from sad to smiling. But I'll let scientists believe that
it can happen--they're entitled to miracles, too. Even those so small we don't notice.
If you are blocking that part of yourself that allows feeling and emotion--you're going to have
worse problems than you already do. I used to believe that I blocked emotions because I wouldn't be
able to get hurt if I did. Ha. Yeah right. I hurt myself by not allowing myself to feel the good
stuff, too. I've had some really nasty experiences, but as I look back...I'm glad I did. They make
the great ones so much more valuable, and worth it.
Logic is not a set of rules for the world. It's a set of rules for understanding the relationship
of interactions. I remember walking into class the first day (I studied logic formally), and the
professor told everyone that it was not a class of intuition, gut feeling, wishful thinking,
etc...You had to have concrete and true premises. By the end of the class, I had logically argued
that my intuition didn't invalidate my arguments, and that it should be considered true when used
as a premisis in an argument. The teacher accepted my argument and allowed my logic to include my
intuition. It doens't matter what you're trying to do. Logic is neutral. It most certaily won't
interfere with your emotions--unless you're being illogical. I'd check my arguments if I were you.
> > Granted, that specific statement was somewhat self-pitying. However, the
> > actual intent wasn't nearly as self-pitying as it came out. My main
> error,
> > in my opinion, was in posting before giving myself sufficient time to
> > properly word the post. The emotion I wanted to convey was annoyance with
> > people who flirt in public in general, with a specific personal example
> for
> > why I felt it was inappropriate. Even when I was in a relationship, I
> tried
> > to keep things quiet and subdued, mostly because a significant number of
> > acquaintances had given me the same line that I gave you two [although
> with
> > much more guilt involved]. Perhaps I was in error, either in making the
> > correlation or in delivering the message.
>
> And you are unable to tell the person, that unless they call the police to
> report a disturbance, they can jolly well go fuck themselves?
It's odd how you were so willing to transfer the opinions of your acquaintances to yourself, and
then to us. Yet when we tell you that you shouldn't be so self-pitying, you won't accept it without
fuss. The people here most certainly are not like those you are familiar with--that's why we like
each other so much. We are all "looking" for people like ourselves because we are different from
those around us. I'd say the only general rule that applies is that there is no other general rule.
>
> If I was your girlfriend, I would translate being unable to show feelings
> in public as to being ashamed of having those feelings. And I would
> consider my SO far more importiant than an aquaintance, unless in a
> buisness or job-type setting where, yes, it would be improper.
<nod>
>
> In my opinion, its not heathy.
Most psychiatrists would agree.
Maj
Ge
Do you suppose it would be too trite to learn from?
<sarcasm>
Maj
Ge
>
> >I was reading Hentai's words over and over in my mind, and surprised myself
> with my response.
> >
> >Personally, philosophies are just a tool for me. Like Rick and his hats of
> belief...
> >
> >And you know what? I'd rather choose to live with the concept that we do
> have our own
> >choice--though it may be delusion--because I won't be able to condemn
> myself before I do something.
> >I will have the illusion that I can do something about it, and I'll keep
> moving towards changing my
> >attitude. By that logic, the actions of myself will propel me towards
> positive action and I will
> >not be able to be miserable.
> >
> >Delusions can be grand...
>
> This is a very, very wise view to uphold, and one I wish I could share. For
> me, likewise, philosophies are merely tools, but I require that they fit my
> tend to happen because people are stupid, while good things tend to happen
> because people are lucky.
>
> [in vita non pacem est]
Sounds like you don't know many people. Bad things happen because you do something that causes them
to happen, but good things happen because it was decreed that it would happen?
Goddess--what a terrible view. You can never do anything right. Ugh. Personally, I think that's
pretty stupid--which would explain why all the bad things are happening to you.
Maj
Ge
My mother just spent an hour trying to tell me this. She doens't communicate effectively. <grin>
This is a good point. Very good point. :)
<thinking of something to say that's as good>
<failing miserably>
Thanx, Flare.
Maj
(thinking we should all just be telepathic)
A figment of your imagination
question,
Yeah .... so?
-me!
James Wheat
Ge wrote in message <35F95D...@unforgettable.com>...
<snip>
>Maj
>(thinking we should all just be telepathic)
Gads, Woman, don't you know how much TROUBLE that would cause?!?!
James
(hoping I got my modem working a bit better this time...)
Ge
<laughing> For me? None. For all of you? <wicked grin>
<starts thinking about her story> I don't think it would be all that great if everyone in the world
were telepathiic--though I don't know. I mean, if we were, I'm sure all the rules would be
different. We'd probably have ways of blocking people, perhaps talking on a few different
levels...The only problem I can really see getting annoying would be the mental spammers. <grin>
Maj
A figment of your imagination
Obviously Hentai considers me beneath his attention, as he has not
responded to a single post of mine.
-me
Hentai
<01bddef0$ef955320$3201410c@cmcwnidy>...
>
>Obviously Hentai considers me beneath his attention, as he has not
>responded to a single post of mine.
Hardly. I'm merely busy, and only reply to that which I decide warrants
immediate attention - 90 hour work-weeks aren't very condusive to excessive
postings. I've primarily been getting on here to let of steam, anyway
[something which I intend to remedy when time permits].
Siv
> >A victim is made by their attitude. You don't have to be a victim. You
> choose to be a victim.
> Again, I tend to disagree with this sentiment; perhaps this goes back to my
> mechanistic view of the universe. I tend to see what most people call
> 'choice' as an illusion; given a specific set of information, there's really
> only one choice that a person will make based upon that information.
> Free-will is nothing more than an illusion caused by a high sensitivity to
> changes in initial conditions.
Sometimes I wonder if you're really full of shit or not - but then I
remember
every other post you've written. Who is John Galt, right? Why -are- you
alive
anyway? See, some of us have a purpose, a meaningful pursuit beyond
whatever
mental neurocosms you've got yourself wrapped up in.
Are you so wrapped up in your mind that you can't even focus enough into
your
body to stay grounded? What you're desribing to me, and the way you
describe
it makes it a thing of objective depression - as if your whole life is
dictated to you by everything outside of your self. You seem to look to
every
other being, thing, consciousness and creation wandering about this
planet
for your every act, except those which might in some way put -you- in
control,
put -you- in the drivers seat, put -you- in the place of responsiblilty.
I think you're just scared of your own power. It's a worthy fear that
you might now even recognize, since you might have not known what it was
since you first started magickal studies. What is your motive for
telling
us about your experiences? What is your motive for speaking in words,
terms
and phrases that communicate the need for pity? What is your motive for
being here in the first place? You must explore those motives before
you
can know what you're doing here.
Do you seek truth? Do you seek something to tell you what to do? Do
you
seek pain? How about "enlightenment?" What would you do if you could
see
yourself watching yourself doing every wonderful, creative, innovative,
and
safely risky thing you have ever dreamed of being able to do in your
whole
life? What would you do if you could watch yourself standing in front
of
yourself ten years ago? Or whenever you last had a wonderful
accomplishment
that made you feel full of life and energy that came from within your
own
body? What would you tell that person? What would that person tell
you?
What would you do if you could be that person? What would you do if you
had the tools to get anywhere you wanted to, and had the choice to do it
as your only option before consequential death? How would you feel if
you
knew you could be safe feeling good, and that any thing you don't do in
your
life is generaly because of fear? And what would you do if you could
define
your fears to your own liking, keeping you safe and in control at once?
I think you'd be your worst nightmare, since you're where you are out of
fear. But that's only my perspecitive - my, subjective, perspective.
-S-
sy.
wrote:
>James Wheat wrote:
>>
>> Ge wrote in message <35F95D...@unforgettable.com>...
>> <snip>
>> >Maj
>> >(thinking we should all just be telepathic)
>>
>> Gads, Woman, don't you know how much TROUBLE that would cause?!?!
>>
>> James
>> (hoping I got my modem working a bit better this time...)
>
><laughing> For me? None. For all of you? <wicked grin>
>
><starts thinking about her story> I don't think it would be all that great if everyone in the world
>were telepathiic--though I don't know. I mean, if we were, I'm sure all the rules would be
>different. We'd probably have ways of blocking people
I think it would be cool if we couldn't. It would take a lot of
adapting to, but imagine how it would change the way people act and
interact.
sy.
kay...@usa.net
Ge <ma...@unforgettable.com> wrote:
> James Wheat wrote:
> >
> > Ge wrote in message <35F95D...@unforgettable.com>...
> > <snip>
> > >Maj
> > >(thinking we should all just be telepathic)
> >
> > Gads, Woman, don't you know how much TROUBLE that would cause?!?!
> >
> > James
> > (hoping I got my modem working a bit better this time...)
>
> <laughing> For me? None. For all of you? <wicked grin>
>
> <starts thinking about her story> I don't think it would be all that great if
everyone in the world
> were telepathiic--though I don't know. I mean, if we were, I'm sure all the
rules would be
few different
> levels...The only problem I can really see getting annoying would be the
mental spammers. <grin>
>
> Maj
Actually its great to hang around ppl who are also telepathic. I am
telepathic myself, and so are a couple of friends I have... There are no
problems assosciated with it, except that you cant hope to hide it when you
are feeling down... they are sure to track you down and comfort you. As for
the blocking... You are completely right. There are a number of ways to block
telepathy, not only the receiving of others, but also the "low-level"
telepathy most ppl emit without knowing it. When I hang with my telepathic
friends, I can relax completely because we can keep the incessant background
noise away with much less effort. I would very much appreciate living in a
world where everyone is telepathic...
Sincerely KayNine
Ge
>
> On Sat, 12 Sep 1998 09:19:49 -0700, Ge <ma...@unforgettable.com>
> wrote:
>
> >James Wheat wrote:
> >>
> >> Ge wrote in message <35F95D...@unforgettable.com>...
> >> <snip>
> >> >Maj
> >> >(thinking we should all just be telepathic)
> >>
> >> Gads, Woman, don't you know how much TROUBLE that would cause?!?!
> >>
> >> James
> >> (hoping I got my modem working a bit better this time...)
> >
> ><laughing> For me? None. For all of you? <wicked grin>
> >
> ><starts thinking about her story> I don't think it would be all that great if everyone in the world
> >were telepathiic--though I don't know. I mean, if we were, I'm sure all the rules would be
>
> I think it would be cool if we couldn't. It would take a lot of
> adapting to, but imagine how it would change the way people act and
> interact.
>
> sy.
<thinking about what she's thinking> Um...It would be rather amusing to "hear" people's
thoughts...but I am one who believes in keeping something private. There are certain things I just
don't want everyone in the world to know. There are some people who's thoughts I don't want to get
anywhere close to. Not only that...but being bombarded with thousands upon thousands of different
people's thoughts all the time leaves one to wonder whether or not you could find your own voice
among the throng.
But, like I said, if we were a telepathic race (I'm talking all people who fall under the "Homo
sapien sapien title--not color), the rules would probably be really different. Our technologies
would be different (can you imagine what espionage would be like?), our attitudes might be
different, and skill might very well depend upon how strong your mind is...
Maj
Ge
>
> In article <35FA9F...@unforgettable.com>,
> Ge <ma...@unforgettable.com> wrote:
> > James Wheat wrote:
> > >
> > > Ge wrote in message <35F95D...@unforgettable.com>...
> > > <snip>
> > > >Maj
> > > >(thinking we should all just be telepathic)
> > >
> > > Gads, Woman, don't you know how much TROUBLE that would cause?!?!
> > >
> > > James
> > > (hoping I got my modem working a bit better this time...)
> >
> > <laughing> For me? None. For all of you? <wicked grin>
> >
> > <starts thinking about her story> I don't think it would be all that great if
> everyone in the world
> > were telepathiic--though I don't know. I mean, if we were, I'm sure all the
> rules would be
> few different
> > levels...The only problem I can really see getting annoying would be the
> mental spammers. <grin>
> >
> > Maj
>
> Actually its great to hang around ppl who are also telepathic. I am
> telepathic myself, and so are a couple of friends I have... There are no
> problems assosciated with it, except that you cant hope to hide it when you
> are feeling down... they are sure to track you down and comfort you. As for
> the blocking... You are completely right. There are a number of ways to block
> telepathy, not only the receiving of others, but also the "low-level"
> telepathy most ppl emit without knowing it. When I hang with my telepathic
> friends, I can relax completely because we can keep the incessant background
> noise away with much less effort. I would very much appreciate living in a
> world where everyone is telepathic...
>
I have some hints of telepathy, but I won't outrightly claim I am a telepath. I'm dreadfully
empathic, and there are days when I'd like to shoot myself for it...I was a main link in the
"telepathy club" at school. We were a group of people who would sit there and laugh at mental jokes
while everyone around us thought we'd lost our minds. We did all sorts of stuff that was pretty
cool. One of the group left for college out of state, another got married, and after that, each
went their own way. You know--it kind of strange, but some of the people in the group seemed to be
boosters. In other words, people who weren't normally able to communicate mentally could while they
were with us. Another note--a large majority of the members of the club weren't Christian, and had
some really high GPA's.
Maj