OCD and magick (was: Re: OTO is dangerous
catherine yronwode
>
> "Rick" <psy...@iopanIsRetired.yahoo.com> wrote:
> > I haven't heard of anyone with OCD adopting magical rituals as a
> > means of coping with obsessive thoughts.
I have. Many times. I am not a professional psychologist, but i am
familiar enough with OCD to recognize its gross symptoms when they are
presented in an obvious fashion.
I deal with dozens of practitioners of magic on a daily basis due to
my role as a supplier of magical ritual goods such as incense, oils,
candles, and the like.
In my experience in talking with and meeting the public through this
venue, i can tell you that OCD is so common in the magical community
that in my year-long correspondence class in hoodoo rootwork folk
magic, which comprises 52 lessons, i devoted part of a lesson on
spiritual bathing rites, and part of a lesson on working with clients
and customers as a professional root worker or conjure shop proprietor
to the topic of how to best deal with this phenomenon in clients,
customers, and friends who are seeking magical advice and training.
I do not know if the percentage of OCD among practitioners of magic is
higher than in the general population. Estimates are that about 4% of
the general population worldwide has clinically diagnosable OCD and
another 4% can be said to have sub-clinical OCD. However, these figure
are complicated and the line between "clinical" and "subclinical" is
blurred by the fact that according to current research (which may well
be superseded in time, but is based on studies dating from the late
1960s onward), doctors believe that in roughly 1/4 of people with OCD,
the severity of symptoms remains the same from the time of first
diagnosis; in about 1/4, the severity of symptoms worsens over the
lifetime; in about 1/4 the severity of symptoms diminishes after an
initial crisis diagnosis; and in about 1/4 the severity of symptoms
fluctuates repeatedly from mild to extreme in response to other life
stressors.
Additionally, many people with OCD also suffer from depression, either
chronically or at certain times in their lives. The biochemical,
genetic, and hereditary links between depression and OCD are fairly
well known. One clinical marker for both OCD and depression is low
brain serotonin. Serotonin, among other things, leads to sensations of
completedness, satiation, and fulfillment of tasks. Low serotonin
leaves one incapable of extinguishing negative thoughts or feeling
that tasks have been fully accomplished.
As for what kinds of magical rituals people with OCD adopt as a coping
strategy for dealing with OCD, i think the most common i have
encountered are these:
repetitive ritual bathing and cleansing,
with or without prayers or recitation or
of magical formulae, sometimes performed
in numbered "sets" or "runs" of days;
repetitive ritual recitation of prayers or formulas.
such as the Psalms or the LBRP;
repetitive seeking of spiritual readings and divinations
(e.g. tarot, astrology, I Ching, or tea leaves),
either from a reader or by self reading; and
repetitive ritual candle burning over extended time,
generally in numbered "sets" or "runs" of days.
I will describe some of these behaviours in greater detail below, in
response to Asiya's comments.
> There are many people in the occult with various mental illnesses. I
> don't see what negative effect OCD could have on magickal practice.
I can explain this to you.
OCD causes negative ideation, which is intrusive and perseverative,
and, in bad cases or during bad times, the repetition may be
continuous.
1) Intrusive negative ideation is destructive of magical will, for
obvious reasons, when the perseveration is on having done a ritual
"correctly." The ritual may be repeated many, many times in an effort
to extinguish the intrusive ideation of its having been done "badly"
or "wrong." For those who practice magic, including Jewish based
hermetic magic and candle-burning magic, the irrational belief that a
ritual was conducted improperly may lead to fearful repetition of the
rite, with an inability to achieve closure or resolution on it.
2) There is a particular form of OCD called "religious scrupulosity"
that involves intrusive negative ideation based on religious concepts.
Typical of this is the persistent and unwarranted belief that one has
sinned or is sinning "uncontrollably," accompanied by perseverative
attempts to achieve forgiveness or absolution. Martin Luther, the
founder of Protestant Christianity, suffered from this form of OCD
and, before he quit the Catholic priesthood, he was officially
reprimanded for asking for confession (a Catholic rite of absolution
from sin) too often and the number of confessions he could make per
given length of time was actually limited by the abbot of the
monastery where he resided. Ideation which in other venues might be
characterized as religious scrupulosity may become, in the thelemic
and hermetic communities, a form of magical scrupulosity, with
attendant fear of having invoked the "wrong" entities or deities or,
alternatively, being too "impure" to achieve certain mystical goals.
3) Another common form of OCD, called contamination phobia, expresses
itself through irrational and inextinguishable fear of contamination
(from any of a number of sources, including but not limited to germs,
bugs, bodily secretions and excretions, fumes, scents, and minerals.
The negative ideation of failing to keep one's ritual space clean from
such "contamination" will interfere with the practice of ritual, as
attention will be diverted repeatedly and uncontrollably toward the
ritual cleaning of the space in preparation for the work.
4) Yet another form of OCD contains related behaviours such as
"counting," "checking," and "grooming." In the counting variant, the
negative ideation of incompleted acts is offset by the compulsion (i
would call it a compensatory act, actually) of counting repeated
closures, sometimes in "sets" or until a "good number" is reached. A
light switch may be turned off and on repeatedly for, say, 25 times,
until the "good number" of 25 has been achieved and the task can be
stopped. As for checking, it is exemplified by repeated trips made to
the refrigerator or check and see "if the door was really closed."
Grooming can include animate beings (self-grooming by teeth-brushing
up to one hour per day) and inanimate objects, such as the common
variant in which all the fringes on all the rugs in the house are
combed out until they lay down perfectly straight and flat (a
compulsion affectionately known as "fringe patrol" by some OCD folks).
Counting, checking, and grooming as compensatory strategies for the
feeling of perseverative fearful thoughts or irrational sensations of
the incompletion of tasks, will greatly interfere with magical ritual
work, for reasons so obvious as to not need detailing, but, to give
one example, if a person with OCD feels that the number 5 is a "bad"
number and everything with fives must be recounted or done twice, to
achieve ten, which is a "neutral number," then any work involving a
pentagram will become grossly deformed and set about with self-imposed
proscriptions and compensatory rituals, drawing mental energy and
focus away from the pentagram and toward its "neutralization."
5) People with the form of OCD known as "hoarding" -- in which there
is inappropriate bonding with inanimate objects (old food containers,
store receipts, worn out clothing) until the home becomes a huge
dump-pile present no particular affinity for or aversion to magical
practices. I have known many mages with OCD hoarding, as well as
non-magicians.
> If you think about it, those with OCD have remarkable discipline,
> doing the same thing over and over again (especially since they
> usually don't want to and recognize that it's silly),
The repetitious acts of someone with OCD checking, counting, or
grooming compensations are not "discipline." They are a compensatory
attempt to offset some negative ideation (for instance of incompletion
or contamination or death) that would otherwise be swamping and
overwhelming all conscious thought.
> and replacing an 'ordinary' anxiety-based compulsion with a daily
> magickal routine would be more beneficial.
I think your description of OCD is not based in knowing those with the
illness. My former best friend for many years had it and i was also
formerly married to a man who had it. In neither case was a daily
magical routine of any help to them. I studied OCD in an attempt to
understand these two men, and found my studies were also of use in
dealing with the magical community through my shop.
My former best friend was, and is, a student of hermetic and folk
magic and quite knowledgeable in the subject. However, 40 years of
magical study and magical practice did in no way alter, help,
alleviate, modify, or cure his hereditary and quite serious OCD, which
also includes hoarding and depression. He told me that from the age of
four onward he suffered from negative ideation that he would somehow
kill himself, despite not wanting to do so, which, he said, at times
resembled a "continual suicide movie" running in the lower corner of
his mental viewscreen during all of his waking hours. Serotonin
re-uptake inhibitor drugs reduced his OCD symptoms to almost nil, but
he did not like the side-effects the drugs had on his libido or
ability to dream, so he stopped taking them.
As for my ex-husband who had OCD, his case was less severe, and he
compensated by counting and checking, which rendered him unfit for
magical work in any form or manner. His best work -- that is, the
activity he sought as an escape from OCD-driven intrusive thoughts of
"someone dying" if he failed to perform his counting, touching, and
checking gestures continually -- was mathematics and graphic design.
He is a math genius and quite a good typesetter as well. His
irrational aversion for the number 5 (his "bad number" in the language
of OCD counters and checkers) and his continual tapping (counting off
number-pairs in his head) were the only outward hint that his mind was
affected by OCD, but due to his continual need to quell recursive
thoughts of family members dying if he failed to count and tap, he was
incapable of undertaking even simple thought experiments, much less
any interior work of a spiritual, mystical, or magical kind. At the
time i was last in contact with him, he also suffered from (probably
transient) depression and he would not consider medication or any kind
of treatment for his condition.
OCD is among our more common mental illnesses, actually, and therefore
it is something with which those in the magical community who meet the
public through occult shop ownership (as opposed to those who belong
to fraternal magical orders or practice a solitary magical path) are
generally quite familiar -- as are those who meet the public in any
other venue where the subject of one's interior mental landscape is a
topic of communication,
In conclusion, i want to make clear that by writing this post, i am
not implying that the magical community is any more rife with mental
illness in general or OCD in particular than the rest of the
population. There are people with OCD variants in every sector of
business, entertainment, professional, and factory employment, in
every hobby field, in all religions, and in every branch of magical
practice.
Cordially,
cat yronwode
333
# i was at an oto
which one? there's several proclaimed, apparently.
# and a complete newbie to magia was talking to the lodge
# master and the lodge master told the newbie to study goetia.
# isn't that dangerous to tell a newbie to study goetia?
not really, because of the extent to which one must go in
order to achieve the magical effect. its complexity recommends
it inasmuch as it includes methods used elsewhere in magic.
the newbie's background may not predispose goetic spirits to
be dangerous or aggressive to the individual, and one's use
of goetia might be manifold within theurgic standards.
# what if the magic really works and the newbie gets overwhelmed?
encourage them to have a battery or a link-up to their instructor.
333
whyzard
> # what if the magic really works and the newbie gets overwhelmed?
>
> encourage them to have a battery or a link-up to their instructor.
>
> 333
(sorry if this is a repost, google is acting up)
hello 333. I am the originator of this thread. Although it is about me
going to oto's i am not actually the member of someone else's order. I
just visit the local oto's, gd's, gnostic temples,etc. because i am
curious. So i never learned what a "battery" is. I believe the
expression is "strike the battery". What is a "battery?
I already looked in the alt.magick FAQ. Thanks
Asiya
news:41FCA289...@luckymojo.com...
> Asiya wrote:
>> "Rick" <psy...@iopanIsRetired.yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> > I haven't heard of anyone with OCD adopting magical rituals as a
>> > means of coping with obsessive thoughts.
>
> I have. Many times. I am not a professional psychologist, but i am
> familiar enough with OCD to recognize its gross symptoms when they are
> presented in an obvious fashion.
>
> I deal with dozens of practitioners of magic on a daily basis due to
> my role as a supplier of magical ritual goods such as incense, oils,
> candles, and the like.
What in your opinion have been the obvious, gross symptoms? How much
time do you have to spend with them before you can tell (like as a crude
example, does someone walk into your shop touching things only with a
kleenex, or is it more subtle and time-developed)?
As for your explanations and examples, thanks for taking the time to
explain. I understand and agree with the general "spirit" of your post,
and can see how OCD could hinder certain magickal practices, but don't
see how magick would actually cause negative effects on those with OCD.
Anyway we've all got weird baggage to work through (which is part of
what the mystical side of magick is about), and OCD doesn't necessarily
need to be treated any differently.
--
Asiya
**********
http://www.asiya.org/
http://www.livejournal.com/users/asiya/
nagasiva
#># what if the magic really works and the newbie gets overwhelmed?
[nagasiva] tries to provide encouragement:
#> encourage them to have a battery or a link-up to their instructor.
"whyzard" <why...@mail.com>:
# [I] ...visit the local oto's, gd's, gnostic temples,etc.
# because i am curious.
keen.
# So i never learned what a "battery" is.
that's ok, more of a role-playing game term than conventional occult
terminology that I'm aware. some people treat their magical items
in this way, and others do not perceive them as such.
# I believe the expression is "strike the battery".
I think you're talking about knocks or tongs on a bell here.
# What is a "battery?
the way I meant it: a repository of magical energy from which to
draw at a later time when in need or during a harrowing adventure.
more like a car battery or a watch battery than a battering ram.
# I already looked in the alt.magick FAQ. Thanks
amulets or talismans can function as batteries, sometimes crystals
or bags are 'charged' for this purpose, and then worn. very potent
magical objects are supposed to have intelligence, or personality
sufficient to give feedback to their operator, and may also afford
the latter a measure of their *own* energy they may have stored,
possibly tapping other sources besides.
allies can sometimes make up the difference.
nagasiva
nagasiva
#> By the time the "newbie" has studied enough goetia to produce an
#> effect, he will not be a "newbie" anymore.
true, but she may be subjected to effects she does not really want.
My New Friend, "whyzard" <why...@mail.com> writes in reply:
# I don't believe this. Goetia is not the secret key of magic.
whyzard, I don't think this is what my friend Paul is saying.
he is talking about the complexity of the practice known as
'Goetic magic' in which one dresses oneself for battle and
then goes into the Ring grappling with a specific set of
spirits known to Christians as "evil" using a Codex.
# Goetia is merely one of the limbs of magic.
one discipline within 'Solomonic magic', usually, yes.
it is grimoire-derived, and harkens to European headquarters
from its left-over construction in the hands of rebel
Christians or possible pagans drawing on Jewish authorities.
# The core of magic is very difficult to learn.
is it? or is it very difficult to learn when one is trying
to learn a very complex discipline initially? I think that
magic by itself is far easier to learn when attempting a
simple spell than trying to tackle something old and
complex such as what Solomonic magic has to offer.
# Duh! And if someone goes and messes his life up with black
# magic,
here your commentary is insightful! 'goetia' is often the
term used for 'black magic', and the summoning of demons as
are supposed found in 'The Lemegeton'/'Lesser Key' attributed
pseudonymously to King Schlomo (Solomon), is considered by a
goodly number both dangerous and foolhardy to attempt. your
reaction is *very* understandable here, and commendable.
# he will take too long to fix it with white magic.
that depends on what is really achieved. the thing about a
batch of these grimoire-based and other nasty Euro-bits is
that they supposedly require all these special conditions,
including the refined (pure) condition of the magician.
that is, we're not just talking about building the right
toolset and going through the proverbial motions, when we
discuss Goetic magic as it ordinarily is meant (absent the
modern Neopagans who employ it for mystico-synthesis!),
but also a regimen of *purification and preparation* that
supposedly protects and affects the magician in beneficial
ways (esp. those who are Christian and seek to get in deep
with Jewish and Christian magicoreligious energies).
the suggestion, therefore, that a newbie attempt Goetic
magic is in some sense farcical, and in some sense a kind
of challenge to them to attempt to attain a modicum of
orientation to Solomania and the control and domination
of spirits from within that cosmology and mindframe. we
might presume that they will get no results because it
is so specialized, but this is a dismissal of 'naturals'
who may surprisingly call up the monster in question and
therefore make of us an irresponsible reference (as you
seem to be implying here Paul is being -- he may be).
# And that is what life is about. Learning with white magic
# and messing things up with black magic. These are pearls
# of wisdom.
within white-light traditions this is certainly true. from
perspectives where simplistic dualism is rejected in favour
of more complex, ambiguous virtues and weaknesses, "white"
magic is usually that which is beneficent and supportive,
"black" is that which intends harm or coersion in some way.
the intellectuals dispense with these silly color-labels
and just call 'em 'harmful' and 'helpful'.
as such, "messing things up" is a matter of perspective.
y
r B
o l b
n e e
w s a
o s s
d e t
e d !
.com@nagasiva
Masery
and went to work without my piece of jewelry I had charged for power.
Now I use myeself as the conduit for power and the talismans or special
jewelry is atuned to a specific purpose.
That is acheived through focusing on my breathing, drawing from the
spiritual essence that flows around and through all things, then
concentrating as it moves into the top of my head, through my body (along my
back), into the earth, where it pools with more energy, then back up through
my body (along my stomach) spilling from my head like a fountain. That spill
or waterfall goes into the earth rejoining the pool. This way I have an
unlimited source but I don't get anxious from too much energy building up at
a chakra point.
Allies do make a great backup. Especially when a person is ill or in a
situation where they have trouble focusing.
Masery the Prismatic Scribe
mase...@yahoo.com
Gaian Priestess and Scribe
customized scrolls, chants, rituals
"nagasiva" <yronwode.com@nagasiva> wrote in message >
Tom
"nagasiva" <yronwode.com@nagasiva> wrote in message
> My Knight of Salad Forks, paul...@comcast.net writes:
> #> By the time the "newbie" has studied enough goetia to produce an
> #> effect, he will not be a "newbie" anymore.
>
> true, but she may be subjected to effects she does not really want.
Reality has that quality. You often get effects you don't really want.
Prospero
going that road start with some more basic ceremonial Magick. Several
"newbies" have produced results, and some more adept are stilsome are still
paying for theirs.
Prospero
me
Yes, I agree. Beginners should start with the basics. I do not
believe that Spirits should be fooled with by novices. For me,
witchcraft is simpler to understand but also effective.It may be a
more practical place to start. Learn about developing your psychic
abilities. Learn about manifestation, and the power of intention, will
and emotion. Then when you have a good foundation, learn ceremonial
magick if you want. I myself am satisfied with my own abilities and I
don't mess with Goetia. Get the bigger picture first.
TC
Tom
"me" <m...@here.com> wrote in message
news:bgqu01pi0g31t97ih...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 21:30:55 GMT, "Prospero"
> <pros...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >I don't believe the Goetia is the place for a "newbie" to start. If your
> >going that road start with some more basic ceremonial Magick. Several
> >"newbies" have produced results, and some more adept are stilsome are
still
> >paying for theirs.
>
Ouija boards?
> I do not
> believe that Spirits should be fooled with by novices.
Who should be fooling with spirits, then?
> For me,
> witchcraft is simpler to understand but also effective.
"Effective". Heh. What "effect" do you think witchcraft actually has?
> It may be a more practical place to start. Learn about developing your
psychic
> abilities.
Can you demonstrate any practical psychic abilities?
> I myself am satisfied with my own abilities and I
> don't mess with Goetia. Get the bigger picture first.
Have you gotten enough of the "big picture" to do any goetic evocation?
Ever?
nagasiva
#> or bags are 'charged' for this purpose, and then worn. very potent
#> magical objects are supposed to have intelligence, or personality
#> sufficient to give feedback to their operator, and may also afford
#> the latter a measure of their *own* energy they may have stored,
#> possibly tapping other sources besides.
#>
#> allies can sometimes make up the difference.
"Masery" <mase...@yahoo.com>:
# ...went to work without my piece of jewelry I had charged for power.
# Now I use [myself] as the conduit for power and the talismans or
# special jewelry is [attuned] to a specific purpose.
#
# That is [achieved] through focusing on my breathing, drawing from
# the spiritual essence that flows around and through all things, then
# concentrating as it moves into the top of my head, through my body
# (along my back), into the earth, where it pools with more energy,
# then back up through my body (along my stomach) spilling from my
# head like a fountain. That spill or waterfall goes into the earth
# rejoining the pool. This way I have an unlimited source but I
# don't get anxious from too much energy building up at a chakra
# point.
what are some of the talismans that you have created through which
to project your prana/chi/spirit-power?
# Allies do make a great backup. Especially when a person is ill
# or in a situation where they have trouble focusing.
heavy-draw support-crew.
nagasiva
Prospero
Any actual pratical adivce you would like to give or can you only throw
one-liners that are of no use to anyone.
Prospero
Prospero
If you want to pratice Ceremonial Magick, I would suggest finding someone
who already practices it and is willing to teach you.
However, if that is not possible, than start studying the Qabbalah. There is
a lot of information online and a lot of books out there. It provides the
basic framework on which most Ceremonial Magick is based. Start praticing
the basics like the Middle Pillar Exercise, the Lesser Banishing Ritual of
the Pentagram (LBRP), Qabbalistic Cross. These are designed to help create
the right frames of mind and build a spiritual balance in yourself.
You need to work on this before you start working with thought forms and
spirits.
Prospero
Tom
"Prospero" <pros...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:LPOQd.47426$pc5....@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
> Question for Tom?
>
> Any actual pratical adivce you would like to give or can you only throw
> one-liners that are of no use to anyone.
Do you have a question on this subject that you would like me to answer?
Tom
"Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:nK2Rd.2540$IU....@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
I thought not.