Cthulhu and myth
spauldingae
I was having a discussion with a friend about this (well, I kinda brought it
up when I showed him a picture of the real Dagon) and he brought up an
interesting point, though I'm not sure how to put it.
Has anyone ever studied Cthulhu and the like, and perhaps, what "real"
mythologies (I've heard Sumerian) the mythos could be partly based off of?
Any detailed essays or such on the subject that are available?
I realize that Lovecraft brought a lot of it from his imagination, but the
Dagon thing makes me wonder how much of his work was based off other mythos.
Martin Edwards
>mythologies (I've heard Sumerian) the mythos could be partly based off of?
>Any detailed essays or such on the subject that are available?
>
to Komogwa of the Pacific Northwest.
******Martin Edwards.******
Come on! Nobody's gonna drive that lousy freeway
when you can take the Red Car for a nickel.
-Eddy Valiant
Dan Norder
"Hey! I read that Cthulhu is really some Babylonian or Sumerian god, how come
he's not there under Kutu?
I have yet to find any secondary (or for that matter primary) source which
lists Kutu as a Mesopotamian deity, or for that matter lists any name
resembling Cthulhu at all. However, having been given a pointer by
DanN...@aol.com, I have confirmed that Kutha or Cutch was the cult city of
Nergal, the Akkadian god of plagues and the underworld (see above) and that
'lu' is the Sumerian word for man. So, Kuthalu would mean Kutha-man which could
conceivably refer to Nergal. As far as I can tell it could mean Joe the Butcher
or any of his neighbors who happen to live in Kutha just as easily. Nergal, of
course bears little resemblance to Lovecraft's Cthulhu beyond the fact that
both can be considered underworld powers. Those interested in further
discussion about this might wish to contact Dan at the above address and they
may wish to read alt.horror.cthulhu as well."
(Incidentally, that part was written in 1994 or earlier, and I get stray emails
from people about it all the time. They're lucky my primary email address
hasn't changed.)
And, as a follow up to that, Man of Kutha would probably be rendered Lakutha,
not Kuthalu... and it seems unlikely that HPL would have first found such an
obscure reference and then used that as a basis for an underwater creature.
Other names, other than the obvious ones like Dagon and the direct mentions of
familiar Greek gods in some stories, don't seem to match up with any characters
in mythology other than in the most coincidental and unlikely ways.
--
Dan Norder
Great Halloween masks at www.maskstore.com
Matthew Cline
unto us these blasphemous ravings:
> Has anyone ever studied Cthulhu and the like, and perhaps, what "real"
> mythologies (I've heard Sumerian) the mythos could be partly based off of?
> Any detailed essays or such on the subject that are available?
I'm curious if there's any mythologies that have a similar "feel" to the
Cthulhu Mythos. Alien civilizations that flourished and perished before the
advent of humans; alien races that came to a young Earth from out of the
stars, and then created life; cosmic horrors from beyond space and time;
blasphemous survivals from eons ago that are only worshiped by the insane.
--
Give a man a match, and he'll be warm for a minute, but set him on
fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
ICQ: 132152059 | Advanced SPAM filtering software: http://spamassassin.org
People's Commissar
have known about Khadulla since he was interested in Arabian things as a
kid. Dagon? That's really a VERY well known thing.
Cthulhu as written of by Lovecraft (HPL): High Priest of the Old Ones who
are Outside, that will be unleashed through the gate which is Yog-Sothoth.
I.e., An Obic Priest (center column, Kaballa, that "opens the Gate
Yat-Zebaoth," among other things.). This will result in utter Chaos. Then
the Old Ones will walk once again, where we walk now. When the stars are
right or, "when the spaces between the stars are more wide." (The Big
Crunch, cf. physics, Penrose; expanding universe equals spaces between stars
being wider.) (New data shows that the universe is not slowing down and
tending toward a crunch in the way that anyone might think of this. In other
words, objects inside of space/time do not behave as space/time itself
behaves at all. The universe is expanding faster, expansion is increasing,
not slowing down, according to the latest Hubble and other finds. Now,
interestingly, it is the dark voids of space BETWEEN the matter in galaxies
that is blowing up like a bubble; and the matter in the galaxies puts a
brake on it keeping it from expanding way too fast. Some call it a
repulsion force, some call it a cosmological constant, some call it dark
energy. So then, the spaces between galaxies are literally getting more
wide!) [HPL]. ALSO: Alien, enemy of Crinoids (Star-Headed "Old Ones" or
"Elder Things" in the story "Mountains of Madness") that came to earth
[HPL]. There are also polyp-octopoids that may be the race that Cthulhu came
with. Or the Polyps may be a separate race distinct from the Octopoids.
The Octopoids are definitely Cthulhu's race. But the Polyps are the race
that the Race of Yith was fleeing from. [Derleth, fanzine Yith Trilogy,
Jantsang, Marsh]. (Possibly similar to the Arabic Khadullah and R'lyeh
possibly Uralia, the Urallic lands; Ural Altaics are associated in Biblical
scholarship with Gog and Magog from the line of Japhet.)
Cthulhu with Derleth and the other writers' input: Tangaroa or Kanaloa, the
octopus god that came to earth from outer space (Emma-ya? Xoth: Sirius, or
SOTHIS, Greek). Cthulhu came here with its three sons [Carter]. It fought a
war with either other gods, or its half-brother Hastur, and the land it came
to sunk beneath the Pacific. It retains control over sentient swimming
creatures. [Derleth, based on Tangaroa, oldest known Polynesian religion]
(Note: HPL--ship in Call of Cthulhu is the Emma.)
Ghatanothoa: Another name of Cthulhu/Tangaroa, brought to earth by aliens
on Pluto, tyrant-ruler of Mu. [HPL's intent, written for Hazel Heald]. OR:
A son of Cthulhu born on Xoth a binary star (cf. Sothis: Sirius a binary
star) when Cthulhu mated with Idh-yaa or Quum-yaa, [from Mu cycle, wife
being Isis, Cthulhu being Osiris: Lin Carter from Churchward's Mu-Egyptian
fantasy]
"spauldingae" <spaul...@home.com> wrote in message
news:B1To9.24081$ST4.57029@rwcrnsc53...
People's Commissar
Semitic languages that pointed out a LOT of similarities. Lin Carter
trashed the article and the professor - but the point is - HPL did claim he
got these ideas from Levantine, Hebrew and Turanian sources - and the guy
writing was a PROFESSOR of SEMITIC languages. HPL DID read Arabian stuff
as a kid, tales and such things.
Khadullah is the best guess I came up with, but that's in the wrong place
(does that matter?) Khadulla is "the beast." It's also not obscure at
all - at least not over there.
Derleth made Tangaroa out of it, obviously so.
"spauldingae" <spaul...@home.com> wrote in message
news:B1To9.24081$ST4.57029@rwcrnsc53...
>
People's Commissar
Jupiter?" They fought a battle and won over the Gods who were Uranians.
There is also a bunch of stuff about Saturn - where a lot of civilizations
referred to the planet Saturn but intended to talk about the sun. Strange
stuff.
Please see inside.
"Matthew Cline" <matt...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:JJap9.2696$GA7.16...@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
> spauldingae was touched by the minds of the terrible Old Ones, and
imparted
> unto us these blasphemous ravings:
>
> > Has anyone ever studied Cthulhu and the like, and perhaps, what "real"
> > mythologies (I've heard Sumerian) the mythos could be partly based off
of?
> > Any detailed essays or such on the subject that are available?
>
> I'm curious if there's any mythologies that have a similar "feel" to the
> Cthulhu Mythos. Alien civilizations that flourished and perished before
the
> advent of humans; alien races that came to a young Earth from out of the
> stars, and then created life; cosmic horrors from beyond space and time;
> blasphemous survivals from eons ago that are only worshiped by the insane.
The only mythology I heard of (but know very little ABOUT), is modern day
Ufo mythology including X-Files (those aliens are supposed to have been
original to earth too, the first ones here and there are CRAZY gov people in
league with them - right?). Consider that. You have space aliens in place
of Gods living on Jupiter, you have abductions instead of demons flying you
off to sabbaths. In other words, the Idea is the same; it's in the same
paradigm. Something "out there, UP there" messing with people "down here."
Whether it's gods, demons or aliens makes no difference.
On the other hand, almost every culture has a history telling of a prior
world age with people in it (no aliens).
Dan Norder
>HPL must have known about Khadulla since he was interested in Arabian things
as a kid.
Lots of people interested in Arabian things never heard of Khadulla. To assume
he did wih no evidence is pretty sloppy.
Oh, wait, this is the fish head guy writing. Lots of even more incredibly silly
things were said after this that I just don't have the time or the inclination
to debunk. Suffice it to say it's all a rehash of the nonsense in the Levay
Nonsense thread.
People's Commissar
Arabian texts like that to NOT have heard about it. You know, there are
Djinn in those tales? Afreet? Things like that.
Again, a professor of Semitic languages wrote a letter printed in Crypt of
Cthulhu - in it he pointed out a lot of amazing similarities.
A lot of people interested in....yadda yad - are and were not as attentive
and voluminous readers as was HPL.
Adding to the inference to show Kadulla is HPL's OWN letter wherein he
states that the Call of Cthulhu with the Castro speech was a kind of mockery
of the Armegeddon story. So why'd he call the Beast Cthulhu and not
Leviathan or something else? Well, Khadullah? Every single person I showed
that to when I read it - all familiar with that - thought it referred to
that. And who are the armies of this beast? Gog and Magog? Anyone
familiar with "Christian lines of decent" would know exactly who they were.
Of course, you HAVE to, HAVE to, HAVE to be right - even if you have NOTHING
to put forward as a theory. God damn you hate theories.
"Dan Norder" <dann...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021010184518...@mb-bg.aol.com...
Dan Norder
>Arabian texts like that to NOT have heard about it.
It is not at all well known. As I said, lots of people reading those kinds of
texts would never run across the term. I did a search through the five
different roughly 500 page books from that time period dealing with Arabian
Nights and related stories, and the word (under any different spelling you've
mentioned and any alternates I could possibly think of) doesn't show up. I've
looked in the index of every book on the subject I have (and I have a pretty
decent sized library). It's not there.
Do you think this is because there's some sort of conspiracy to make a really
common term obscure, or just that all those authors honestly never heard of it?
Oh, wait, look who I'm asking. Never mind.
>You know, there are
>Djinn in those tales? Afreet? Things like that.
Yes, and those are thousands of times more well known. I don't have to do a
search on the electronic books to find those, those are littered all over the
place, and in common usage. If the story was Call of Djinnu or Call of Afreetu
there wouldn't be any questions.
>Of course, you HAVE to, HAVE to, HAVE to be right -
I'm not the one hallucinating up nonexistent facts in a feeble effort to try to
be right. Please project more of your own insecurities onto me, it just makes
you look even more ridiculous.
> - even if you have NOTHING to put forward as a theory.
HPL was a fiction writer. It's all too likely that he just invented the name,
like he invented lots of others. Without reasonable (i.e., not just making
stuff up) evidence to the contrary, that's the most logical explanation.
>God damn you hate theories.
Hate theories? Expecting people to use facts instead of wild speculation is
hate?
Oh, wait, look who I'm asking. Never mind.
Jordan SC
Simon Necronomicon. As such, I wouldn't put much credence into it.
Edward P. Berglund
gathered by R.L. Sechrist in Tahiti and sent to H.P. Lovecraft, to see if
possibly HPL had made any notes on Sechrist's notes denoting whether he had used
anything from this mythology. Unfortunately, by the time I really got serious
in tracking down these notes, Sechrist had died and his wife and thrown
everything out.
Edward P. Berglund
http://local.toddalan.com/berglund/
People's Commissar
of (now out of print) travel logues that HPL and others like him read during
those days? Did you know that Roerich's book is a real book and that was a
real man and that he went where HPL claimed he went? Of course, the NEXT
generation of mythos fans had no clue about this. I would think that
today's fans WOULD want to know this. WOULD want to know that HPL et al
knew this, saw these texts.
It (Khadulla) was well known enough for my every elderly person where I grew
up (and I'm elderly now) to KNOW exactly what it was. It was a no-brainer
to them - it was that well known. So much for modern searched. Perhaps
I'm pronouncing it as per own language. Khadulla (Kha-doo-luh) or
Ha-doo-loo. I could even show you the Arabic letters for this if it would
post - it won't. I will never forget Togrul reading the Castro speech. He,
being a believing Moslem, did NOT want to read more about "the evil one."
1. HPL's own letters showed that he was mimicing the Armegeddon tales. 2.
A professor of Semitic languages pointed out this and many other things. 3.
None of the people, including myself at a younger age, were scholars of
Semitic languages - we weren't even SEMITES of any kind - yet we ALL
recognized this just from common reading and common folklore and familiarity
with it, and all thought it might be that for many synchronizing reasons.
1. mock out of
Armegeddon; 2. Castro's speech about chaos and violence when "IT" comes
forth - "it" being Cthulhu. And 3. the not-so-particularly-NICE
connotations put upon this Cthulhu and its cult. I don't know what calibre
of "lots of people reading" you run into today - but back then, people WERE
aware of it.
So, YOU are saying you can't find Khadullah anywhere? You gotta be kidding.
You have GOT to be kidding! That's like saying you can't find "Leviathan"
mentioned anywhere in relation to Christian scripture. Well, it sure the
hell is NOT in that fraud of a Simon Necronomicon - that's for sure.
Suggest you try to find a hard copy of Crypt of Cthulhu #14 or perhaps some
other sources. Umr'at-tawil eg, is real Arabid and means exactly what HPL
said it means. HOW DID HE KNOW THAT? He didn't speak a word of Arabic.
Duh, someone told him, or he read it.
Here is more: Abdu'llah az-Zarid. While Abdu'lla means Servant of God and
is a common name, az-Zarid would be the nickname meaning "the gobbler." It
is Old Arabic. Al-Azif is excellent Arabic according to that prof. of
semitic languages that wrote Lin Carter, but too short for a title of a
book: it's a feminine adjective and one of the many names for the day of
resurrection and judgement: it means "The Coming Hour" - and can be a stand
in for "The Coming Day" which would be a fit title for a work on Moslem
escatology. R'lyeh is an acceptable transcription of the Arabic Galiyah or
r'allyah since the "g" is a glottal "r" sometimes rendered by an "r" or "r'
" and galiyah means boiling. OK, the Word Cthulhu is not Arabic but it is a
GOOD transcrip of the Aramiac Ketul-hu "he who is imprisoned." The Arabic
root word Katala (sorry, heh, I'm not Arab and WE say that like this
"Kha-doo-luh") - Katala means to fetter or imprison (just conjugate - "he
who IS imprisoned") is also present in Hebrew and Babylonian but it is a
rare word in Syriac.
And yes yes, I was one of the FIRST to tell these people that IREM IS A REAL
PLACE. Obviously HPL heard of it - come on. How many freaking coincidences
can there be? Either he read it, or someone TOLD him about it especially
since he ran into these people, many of my people, when he was in NY to
learn to "like them" so much. And Kara Shehr is in NW China today - nowhere
near Arabia. Kara means black in Turko-Tatar-Mongol. The words are NOT
Semite words and there is nothing strange about the place. What do you
think HPL did, just invent all these coincidentally KNOWN words, or
obviously blatantly distorted words by chance?
There is even more similar stuff - as I TRIED to point out to anyone
interested: HPL et al had nothing BUT the Greek accounts to base everything
on and this was the case until very recently (comparitively speaking).
Therefore, he'd have relied upon what he could glean from travel logues or
Arabic lore - or from the GREEK versions, including Plutarch. Speaking of
ol Plu...
Plu said: "Demons serve and minister unto Cronos, whose companions they
were when He reigned upon Gods and men....." OK, the Kabiri, the ELDER ONES
or Hebrew Kabbir meaning Great Ones, the root has both meanings - Kabira to
be old or older, kabura to be big or strong. Further, gabirum, that word
makes them gods of the underworld, the root gabara means to bury. Kabirim
prevailed in the Arabic Kabir and Hebrew Kabbir. Plutarch adopted a
version. In Plu's story they are Powers of divination who convey the god's
DREAMS to his SACRED PRIESTS on the Fortunate Isle of Ogyia-Pelagia. (Is it
a coincidence that Pelagic means under the ocean?) This is the same KIND of
paradigm here, just turned by HPL into something with a more modern and
"outer space, alien" flavor to it. After all, Cthulhu IS an alien - we all
agree on that one right? Well, what the hell was Apollo et al doing living
on Mt. Olympus on planet Jupiter?
Ketel-hu (we say Kha-doo-luh or Khadulla) is "HE who is IMPRISONED." OF
course, when he gets out of prison - heh - watch out. These names all have
very passive meanings in Hebrew and Aramaic, but they have active meanings
in Arabic.
Another theory would have it that HPL and his circle knew of the Cronus
mythology - purely from the Greek. This is mythology about a prior golden
age. They fooled with Semitic sounding words (HPL admitted that he used
that and Turanian stuff (that's TURKO-TATAR in case you never heard of that
either) - and that latter is NOT that well known, but very well known to
me). Of course, Chronos is a good god of the golden age - HPL and company
had Cthulhu et al ruling in a PRIOR AGE too - but they were not "good gods."
The coming of Cthulhu is an admitted mockery of the Armegeddon story, unless
you want to argue with what HPL said about his own story.
And I repeat: HPL et al, when they relied on known and ACCEPTED mythology of
ancient cultures, relied on the GREEK - as did everyone at that time. It
does NOT matter in regards to the mythos, if the *Greeks* got Egyptian
things wrong. At least HPL called Egypt "Khem" which IS what it was
called. Where' d he get that information from? Well, once upon a time when
people used to read a lot more, that was pretty well known. I didn't have
to look up the word "Khem" when I saw it in 1969. I knew what it was; I
knew that Egypt was the Greek name for Khem - I also knew that Cam, Khem and
Ham were related words. OBVIOUSLY, HPL was quite familiar with some of the
mythologies (NOT Egyptian ones) - and some of the words from Arabic texts
translated into English as either stories, or travel logues. It's more than
too obvious. He got too many things RIGHT.
You know, if I were to write a sci fi story in Chinese and sell it to the
people living in the outback of China - and in that story I have a hero
called Sesu and he could raise dead people to life and do other miracles -
even if I presented him to be a character like Nyarlathotep in the form of
man; it would be MORE than obvious to anyone in the West that Chesu was
Jesus and that I made him out to be an evil incarnation of something for a
sci fi tale. MORE than obvious. It would NOT be obvious to people living
in the outback of China. It is THAT obvious to me, that Nyarlathotep is
none but our own Mahakala - and it did not take 2 degrees in theology for me
to "figure it out" as Dr. Price did. It was THAT obvious.
Repeat: anything and everything HPL et al, including Carter - ever knew
about mythology of the ancient world came from either the BIBLE - or from
the GREEK. And yeah, we KNOW that there is no such word as Osiris in the
land of Khem. But WAS THERE during the Ptolomy rule? Why not - they spoke
Greek.
The Simon Necronomicon is a complete fraud. It was roundly exposed to be
deliberate fraud, with INTENT to defraud - in Crypt of Cthulhu. Add to
that, the so called Sumerian they present in that book is not even Semitic.
It's Urallic.
TJ
PS:
Ia-mayyitan ma khadirun yata-bakha sarmadi, fa itha yag ash-shuthath
al-mautu khad yantahi!
"Dan Norder" <dann...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021010201806...@mb-bg.aol.com...
Yana
>
> It is not at all well known. As I said, lots of people reading those kinds
of
> texts would never run across the term.
Far too many things are not well known today; but they were known to readers
of stories about "far off places" in the past. Like Lovecraft.
>
> Do you think this is because there's some sort of conspiracy to make a
really
> common term obscure, or just that all those authors honestly never heard
of it?
Anyone in the know, knows exactly where Lovecraft and others got their terms
or variations, or inventions from when not purely inventing them. That you
obviously don't know is rather comical. You believe they "honestly never
heard of it." Well, they "never heard" of a bit too many recognizably
distorted and foreign terms; with the correct meanings, to make that
believable. Do you honestly believe that a group of authors could invent
things that close to the target? That's asking us to stretch the meaning of
the word gullible.
>
> I'm not the one hallucinating up nonexistent facts in a feeble effort to
try to
> be right. Please project more of your own insecurities onto me, it just
makes
> you look even more ridiculous.
They aren't non existent facts. They are simply facts you can't seem to
find because you are far too lazy to get off your ass and really find out
about any of it. By the same token, you are all gung ho to trounce on
someone else who is willing to share some of this. You believe they just
invented all of this out of whole cloth when they write things in letters to
each other proving that this is not quite the case at all. Take the city of
Irem. This is a very obscure mention from the Koran. Did Lovecraft read
the Koran? Take Sarnath. Was Lovecraft familiar with Buddha's sermon in
that city? And so forth.
>
> > - even if you have NOTHING to put forward as a theory.
>
> HPL was a fiction writer. It's all too likely that he just invented the
name,
> like he invented lots of others.
He invented far too many names that happen to be real things or distortions
of real things sometimes using distorted spellings to make the names sound
outre. And yes, of course, he wrote *fiction* about all of it. I believe
we already know that. Is that your contributory "logical deduction" here?
That Lovecraft wrote fiction?
Without reasonable (i.e., not just making
> stuff up) evidence to the contrary, that's the most logical explanation.
You have no logic so please do not speak about logic.
>
> Hate theories? Expecting people to use facts instead of wild speculation
is
> hate?
Wild speculation comes from a person who does not have letters to prove such
deliberate distortions of known mythologies occurred. It does not come from
anyone that has this material. This would be you, wildly speculating that
Lovecraft just happened to hit so many coincicences on target all those many
times.
>
> --
> Dan Norder
You are an idiot.
People's Commissar
name, btw, is Williamson! No shit! I think HPL would probably have been
more in tune with the ethnological books around the time - and there were
TONS of these, literally TONS - also books by people that travelled into "my
home turf" heh..... er - Central-NE Asia. TONS of the stuff.
TONS of this Polynesian stuff was at the museum back during HPL's day. I
think you could find this in his letters, probably, or in some scholarly
work on his life by one of the guys that heh - dug up every single thing he
ever wrote anyone, or they wrote back. Considering his hate for fish - one
look at Tangaroa the Polynesian octopus god would have done it. He's have
been appalled at their native practices, as DETAILED in such books on
ethnology too. Cooks records, all that - it was widely available back
then.
It's obvious to me that he never used any names from Polynesia since their
words consist of mostly vowels. He stuck to his Semite "almost all
consonants" thing. Perhaps he found their speech horrifying when he heard
it. I wonder why he put Kara Shehr near Arabia tho. That's a BIG boo boo.
"Edward P. Berglund" <berg...@toddalan.com> wrote in message
news:3DA64EF8...@toddalan.com...
Mika-Petri Lauronen
> Well, heh, this is how HPL *and other authors* used some of this. HPL
> must have known about Khadulla since he was interested in Arabian
> things as a kid. Dagon? That's really a VERY well known thing.
>
In Kalevala, Väinämöinen (the half-god, one of the main characters) repels
Iku-Turso, a water monster with a beard, forbidding it to come back as long
as the moon and the stars are in place.
Iku-Turso - Ikuturso - Ikutulso - Kutulso - Kutul - ...
The beard could also be tentacles.
In Finland, the Santa Claus is known as "joulupukki". That translates as
"the Christmas goat". Originally, before Christianity (Finns were the last
people in Europe to convert to Christian faith), it actually was a goat,
which had to be pacified by gifts in order to ensure a good crop for the
next year. Shub-Niggurath, the black goat of the woods with a thousand
young (the elves)...
I still believe that HPL had no knowledge of these aspects of Finnish
mythology and folklore. They are interesting notions, though. BTW, at least
two stories have been written about Cthulhu or its spawn being related to a
Lappish lake, the alledgely bottomless Inari lake. I wrote the first one,
but it is appallingly bad.
--
-- Ala mua, elä sottaa!
-- Make love, not war!
-- Mixu Lauronen, mpla...@paju.oulu.fi
Dan Norder
>Anyone in the know, knows exactly where Lovecraft and others got their terms
>or variations, or inventions from when not purely inventing them.
"Anyone in the know"? How come the Lovecraft scholars don't agree with this
thing you (and I'm not even sure that there is really a you, it's mighty
convenient that a "nob...@nowhere.com" shows up to defend someone) claim is
common knowledge?
>That you obviously don't know is rather comical.
I've heard your theory, I find it less than perfect.
>Do you honestly believe that a group of authors could invent
>things that close to the target?
Lots of coincidences can be interpreted as "that close to that target" if the
person looking at it decides they want to look at it that way. It's not an
objective conclusions, it's just someone saying that it's obvious and expecting
everyone else to believe it.
>That's asking us to stretch the meaning
>of the word gullible.
Gullible, you mean like people who wander across one of 15 or so different
theories of which true mythological character Cthulhu was based on and assume
that a fiction writer obviously coudln't come up with something that might even
be slightly similar by accident? If it's so obvious, how come there are
alternate theories?
All I'm looking for is a reference that would point to one theory over the
others. Unless you can do that, you're just making assumptions and complaining
when others don't want to buy into your little theory.
Facts, logic, common sense, or the ability to debate an issue without just
claiming everyone who disagrees with your conclusions is an idiot all would be
a good start. When you are ready to provide any of them, please do.
>They aren't non existent facts. They are simply facts you can't seem to
>find because you are far too lazy to get off your ass and really find out
>about any of it.
I'm sorry, I think you lose any credibility you might have had when you pull
this kind of crap. I tracked down the information for the Kutha reference and
explained it, years ago. I'm the one quoted in the mythology FAQ with the info,
volunteering for emails, and pointing readers to this newsgroup to discuss it.
Present your facts or don't. You won't win anyone over just by declaring
something as true without giving any references or reasoning, or by insulting
people who looked at the info and and found it to be flimsy.
--
Dan Norder
People's Commissar
pseudo-names on Finnish lore. He DID claim it was based on a lot of Hebrew
and - I already said that, repeatedly.
Hence you have Yog-Sothoth (oth being Hebrew ending there) being the All in
One, One in All and the Gate. That is eactly what Yat-Zebaoth is. All in
One, One in all, The Gate. The name sounds so similar that I thought in the
movie Dunwich Horror that Dean Stockwell was actually SAYING "Yat-Zebaoth."
I'm not the only one that picked up on this. Dick Tierney is ALSO a mythos
writer, right? And he's another old timer, older than me, even. He
specifically used this theme in "Winds of Zarr."
Hence you have Azathoth - and Azoth, the alchemical Ialdabaoth or "child of
chaos" and so forth - or even better still - Asat-Sat which I'm absolutly
sure HPL did NOT know about since that's completely from the esoteric school
(used to be esoteric - not anymore). But other mythos writers HAVE used
this Vedantic concept - which is the point. Hell, I used it in stories.
HPL did say in a letter (and I'm sure, his intent is all too clear in a
letter he wrote) that CoC was a mockery of the Armegeddon, specifically a
mockery of the Book of Relevation. I saw that in one of his letters -
sorry, I can't cite chapter and verse here. In the Armegeddon you have the
Beast with his hordes of Gog and Magog. There is a scene or vision, where
John-of-Revelations sees something like unto a sea - it's all greenish and
24 elders sit there and guard these Seals. SEALS? They guard them lest
they be opened at the wrong time? The Seals get opened - and horrors come
out. These elders and the seals are surrounded by 4 beasts with eyes within
and without. That's in Reveleation. HPL SAID he had that in mind - that
scripture. Remember the beast from the sea? I think it's so horrible to
look upon that all who see it go mad. The Uralic (Uralia?) or the Ural
Altaic lands are specifically cited in any Biblical type "lines of decent"
as the homeland of the descendents of Gog and Magog thru Japhet. And then
there is Khadula (Ka-doo-lu) - or Ketal-hu as a *professor* of Semitic
languages pointed out in Crypt of Cthulhu 14. After all, that's an expert.
Coincidence? I think HPL heard this stuff and perhaps forgot wherefrom he
heard it. No one can PROVE otherwise, you know. You can't track down every
person he ever talked to OR everything he ever read. Also, many times
writers like to deny that they "got" their ideas from elsewhere. Tish.
Perhaps it is a coincidence - but with (listen carefully, please) mythos
writerS (plural) a lot of this was known, figured out - but it's one HELL of
a coincidence. One whopping hell of a coincidence. Derleth is another
matter - he stuck Catholic type demonological themes into his tales,
especially in Lurker at the Thereshold. Carter - deliberately used this
stuff. Consider I did say MYTHOS WRITERS plural. Robert E. Howard knew a
lot of Celtic lore - I don't particularly consider him a mythos writer.
I should guess the lottery numbers 2 times in a row. For some reason, you
people DO NOT WANT to notice that not only are the names SIMILAR here, but
the concepts are similar. And you continue to ignore the fact that I said
mythos writers plural - HPL is not the only mythos writer out there. I
cited Dick Tierney as one prime example who definitely DID use this
information - in fact, some of it came FROM his old notes that I have. "Ho
agios to theo" he rendered as Yog Sothoth as is Yat-Zebaoth (another name of
The God in an aspect, also. He IS a mythos writer.
In other tales HPL most definitly relied on more standard things (in some
circles, these are standard). Gorgos? Magna Mater? Dagon? And so forth.
All of that, very familiar to some readers.
For some reason, you want to believe that there is not so much of a
coincidence here. Yet heh, people DO NOTICE this - lots notice it. I'd
say, it's way too much of a coincidence. As to the OTHER mythos writerS -
they most definitely DID their homework and used a lot of this stuff -
deliberately. In the "Winds of Zarr" Tierney outright says that Yog-Sothosh
is the Jewish God. No one bashed him over the head for writing that.
Hence, this becomes "part of the mythos."
Keep in mind - the entier notion of a "Cthulhu Mythos" is DERLETH'S - not
HPL's. And on that, the purists most definitely do agree. I've kept up
with them for ages. On that little "dictionary" of sorts, I did state in
brackets when I could remember, exactly which author contributed what. For
instance, in HPL, Ghatanathoa is definitely NOT any son of Cthulhu. But in
Carter it most definitely IS.
Shub-Niggurath is a no-brainer - that's Goat of Mendes - or Pan. And with
that one, there is no similarity in names. But one scholar suggested
Sheila-na-gog.
There are people out there that DO want to know this stuff, buddy. And
remember, mythos writers - plural, is not just HPL.
"Mika-Petri Lauronen" <mixu...@somewhere.net> wrote in message
news:Xns92A463BB7E9...@212.50.131.130...
People's Commissar
14.
TJ
"Dan Norder" <dann...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021010201806...@mb-bg.aol.com...
> >Kadhulla is just too well known for anyone reading Arabian Nights and
other
> >Arabian texts like that to NOT have heard about it.
>
> It is not at all well known. As I said, lots of people reading those kinds
of
> texts would never run across the term. I did a search through the five
> different roughly 500 page books from that time period dealing with
Arabian
> Nights and related stories, and the word (under any different spelling
you've
> mentioned and any alternates I could possibly think of) doesn't show up.
I've
> looked in the index of every book on the subject I have (and I have a
pretty
> decent sized library). It's not there.
>
> Do you think this is because there's some sort of conspiracy to make a
really
> common term obscure, or just that all those authors honestly never heard
of it?
>
> Oh, wait, look who I'm asking. Never mind.
>
> >You know, there are
> >Djinn in those tales? Afreet? Things like that.
>
> Yes, and those are thousands of times more well known. I don't have to do
a
> search on the electronic books to find those, those are littered all over
the
> place, and in common usage. If the story was Call of Djinnu or Call of
Afreetu
> there wouldn't be any questions.
>
> >Of course, you HAVE to, HAVE to, HAVE to be right -
>
> I'm not the one hallucinating up nonexistent facts in a feeble effort to
try to
> be right. Please project more of your own insecurities onto me, it just
makes
> you look even more ridiculous.
>
> > - even if you have NOTHING to put forward as a theory.
>
> HPL was a fiction writer. It's all too likely that he just invented the
name,
> like he invented lots of others. Without reasonable (i.e., not just making
> stuff up) evidence to the contrary, that's the most logical explanation.
>
> >God damn you hate theories.
>
> Hate theories? Expecting people to use facts instead of wild speculation
is
> hate?
>
> Oh, wait, look who I'm asking. Never mind.
>
> --
> Dan Norder
> Great Halloween masks at www.maskstore.com
>
"Dan Norder" <dann...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021011032049...@mb-cl.aol.com...
Dan Clore
>
> >Kadhulla is just too well known for anyone reading Arabian Nights and other
> >Arabian texts like that to NOT have heard about it.
>
> It is not at all well known. As I said, lots of people reading those kinds of
> texts would never run across the term. I did a search through the five
> different roughly 500 page books from that time period dealing with Arabian
> Nights and related stories, and the word (under any different spelling you've
> mentioned and any alternates I could possibly think of) doesn't show up. I've
> looked in the index of every book on the subject I have (and I have a pretty
> decent sized library). It's not there.
The form you want is "khadhulu". The word occurs in the
_Quran_, meaning "forsaker" or "abandoner". Here are three
translations of the verse where it appears:
025.029
YUSUFALI: "He did lead me astray from the Message (of Allah)
after it had come to me! Ah! the Evil One is but a traitor
to man!"
PICKTHAL: He verily led me astray from the Reminder after it
had reached me. Satan was ever man's deserter in the hour of
need.
SHAKIR: Certainly he led me astray from the reminder after
it had come to me; and the Shaitan fails to aid man.
I don't see any reason to connect this with Cthulhu other
than looking somewhat similar to the name, and I don't know
of any reason to think that HPL would have known the
term--in anything he had read, it would likely appear
translated rather than the original being given, as in the
verse above.
--
Dan Clore
Now available: _The Unspeakable and Others_
All my fiction through 2001 and more. Intro by S.T. Joshi.
http://www.wildsidepress.com/index2.htm
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1587154838/thedanclorenecro
Lord We˙rdgliffe and Necronomicon Page:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/
News for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo
Said Smygo, the iconoclast of Zothique: "Bear a hammer with
thee always, and break down any terminus on which is
written: 'So far shalt thou pass, but no further go.'"
--Clark Ashton Smith
People's Commissar
diffently and the people I refer to that were all too familiar with it were
Turk-Tatars. Yes, Moslems. They'd not tend to call that Satan or even
Iblis. Iblis or Eblis, the Moslems have it in their myth that before the
"wicked angels fell" Iblis (or Eblis) was named Azazel or Hharis. (two H's).
That's not Khadullah! Is it even remotely possible that HPL ASKED someone
foreign in NY what the actual name was?
See inside.
"Dan Clore" <cl...@columbia-center.org> wrote in message
news:3DA6C495...@columbia-center.org...
There is a theory that HPL's Cthulhu originated with the sight of his father
in the hospital - and the word in vogue at the time - someting like cuthlach
or ? It means something like Uncouth. Cuthulach? I forgot.
It is possible he heard it. It's just SO much of a coincidence with HPL
(not with the other authors, tho). He was in NY and came in contact with
such people from these places enough to despise them in the tale about Red
Hook. And he did base CoC on Revelations. And I clearly said that mythos
writers (plural) used a lot of this stuff. In fact, that's where I pretty
much got a lot of it, as I said. that is PRIMARILY what that's about - as
the names in brackets indicate. Again, Hpl's intent was for Ghatanathoa to
be another version of Cthulhu - written for Hazel Heald. Carter just
changed it, as per practice in mythos stories.
What IS strange, is that Khadulla fits. Castro could be talking about that
in the CoC. It also fits in with the Chronian mythology if you make Chronos
evil. Now, I'm sure HPL did know that - and from the Greek stuff, standard
myth considered accurate at that time.
It's amazing, imo, that Ketuhu fits even better - and that is the correct
word in Aramaic. It's not some game with Sumerian words. You DO NOT think
this is amazing? This, and other things, are so amazing that there are
people out there that seriously believe HPL was in "touch" with something
spiritual. I don't believe that. I just think as the professor of Semitic
languages thinks - that HPL heard this somewhere. That IS possible. He
knew quite a lot about real illegal immigrant doings in Red Hook and about
people living there! Don't you think that's a lot harder to find out about
than some mythology - especially back then? Same folks lived in those parts
at least during the time Bobby Kennedy got shot.
Lin Carter oh, he got all over that poor Professor for simply offering up
his ideas and pointing out that some of these words were not only
recognizable, but they *meant the same things*! Now, heh - Carter was
notorious for USING stuff exactly in that way!
That's the point - the words not only sound similar, very similar, but they
MEAN the same thing. No one, not even a scholar, can possibly say what HPL
knew or did not know. The thing I posted was about many mythos writers -
and their names are in brackets. Tierney most definitely DID do his
"similar sounding" thing "similar meaning" thing with Yog-Sothoth. I have
his notes. And so did Carter with Xoth the binary star and the Mu fantasy
from Churchward. Derleth? Well, doesn't he just say what he's up to?
Borrowing from demonology?
Mika-Petri Lauronen
> Yes, but your point is invalid. HPL never claimed to base a lot of
> his pseudo-names on Finnish lore. He DID claim it was based on a lot
> of Hebrew and - I already said that, repeatedly.
>
Neither did I. I was just pointing out some... rather interesting details
of Finnish folklore.
People's Commissar
was published a few times) and please consider that from the 1970's on,
THOUSANDS of people were curious about this, is that well, none of the
writers, including Derleth, really knew where HPL got all of it. Did he get
it from his dreams (as he said!) or from distortions of Hebrew or Turanian
things (which he also said) - or? Made it up?
Reminds me, I need to correct spelling for Arabic, thanks to Mr. Clore. AND
stick in that correct word thanks to Professor of Semitic Languages.
It is a fact, however, that other writers definitely DID make hypothesis
and comparisons with things that are apparently "little known in the West"
to these other things - and they USED this stuff. Much of what I typed up,
was written up in notes by these people and I just saved it all. Tierney is
one of the best known ones for doing this; he not only used Yat-Zebaoth, but
he took a sentence in Greek from the Bible " Ho agios to theos" and heard
"Yog-Sothoth" from that phrase (Oh holy or beloved one of the God). And
Lumley, imo did that also when he claimed Azathoth was a "nuclear
explosion." Lumley also made Aphrodite into a Deep One, or I think that was
Lumley. Carter did it. I used the "Sat Om Aga" since Carter was kind
enough to say that a possible pronounciation of Zoth-Ommog was Zatomaga -
all of a sudden, I understood the words! When I say on the page of
definitions that "the rest is standard myth" well, it's basically written
for people that KNOW some standard myth - and yes, usually what they know
is directly from the Greek sources - even what they know about Egypt is from
the Greek, including the name "Egypt." Tierney likewise, changed Shudde
M'el into something more recognizable in a tale. You know, the old style
fans and writers used to LIKE this stuff. God, they got INTO it beyond
belief. So got so into it that they came to the conclusion that HPL was
influenced by something since well, he dreamed so much of it. As I said, I
don't think so. But can I prove that? Of course not.
Now, that's stated in the document - so if critics carefully read that -
they'd not have had to make a monumental issue out of it. If they didn't
understand a reference (considering it was written up in a highly short form
for people familiar with this), they could have ASKED "What does that mean?"
For instance, the word "Ob." Someone can't find it or never heard of it?
TISH!
Examples, emphasis added:
Cthulhu *with Derleth and the other writers' input*: Tangaroa or Kanaloa,
the octopus god that came to earth from outer space
Ghatanothoa: Another name of Cthulhu/Tangaroa, brought to earth by aliens
on Pluto, tyrant-ruler of Mu. [*HPL's intent*, written for Hazel Heald].
OR: A son of Cthulhu born on Xoth a binary star (cf. Sothis: Sirius a binary
star) when Cthulhu mated with Idh-yaa or Quum-yaa, [from Mu cycle, wife
being Isis, Cthulhu being Osiris: *Lin Carter* from Churchward's
Mu-Egyptian fantasy]
And so forth. Yes, it's written in a very VERY short form from NOTES.
Prior to that being put up, or published before being put up, it was just
notes that no fans even knew existed.
"Mika-Petri Lauronen" <mixu...@somewhere.net> wrote in message
news:Xns92A4ED853A9...@212.50.131.130...
Edward P. Berglund
[snip]
> So, YOU are saying you can't find Khadullah anywhere? You gotta be kidding.
> You have GOT to be kidding! That's like saying you can't find "Leviathan"
> mentioned anywhere in relation to Christian scripture. Well, it sure the
> hell is NOT in that fraud of a Simon Necronomicon - that's for sure.
> Suggest you try to find a hard copy of Crypt of Cthulhu #14 or perhaps some
> other sources. Umr'at-tawil eg, is real Arabid and means exactly what HPL
> said it means. HOW DID HE KNOW THAT? He didn't speak a word of Arabic.
> Duh, someone told him, or he read it.
When I visited with E. Hoffmann Price back in the mid-70's, Ed said that he
created the name Umr' at-Tawil, which is perfectly good Arabic (which I was
studying at the time).
[snip]
Edward P. Berglund
http://locals.toddalan.com/berglund/
Dan Norder
[lots of raving]
>It's amazing, imo, that Ketuhu fits even better -
>and that is the correct word in Aramaic.
Groan.
>It's not some game with Sumerian words.
Different language, same game.
>You DO NOT think this is amazing?
Amazing? Not at all.
Tedious and sad? Very much so.
People's Commissar
Arabic. Obviously, E. Hoffman used it but didn't "let on" that he was using
something very real. That's the point, Paul. Lots of writers DID that, on
purpose.
"Edward P. Berglund" <berg...@toddalan.com> wrote in message
news:3DA7986F...@toddalan.com...
People's Commissar
but a convo going on. Hmm. How typical of a person (you) that has nothing
but negativity and/or nay saying to bring forth.
You are upset that you neglected to notice that the "notes" I posted (on
request) referred to authors (plural) and what they picked up and used.
They did pick up on this - that's a fact. They did use it - that's another
fact.
You have a major problem with that - but can't seem to just admit that.
Well, that's not my problem, deary.
See inside.
"Dan Norder" <dann...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021012002056...@mb-ff.aol.com...
> Der Komissar sprecht:
> [lots of raving]
> >It's amazing, imo, that Ketuhu fits even better -
> >and that is the correct word in Aramaic.
>
> Groan.
>
> >It's not some game with Sumerian words.
>
> Different language, same game.
Wrong. A Professor of Semetic languages wrote that, it is in Crypt/Cthulhu
14. It was not written by a bunch of frauds with intent to defraud anyone
(Simon, Necronomicon). Ketulhu means "he who is imprisoned." And Khadhullu
is the name of the Beast in Islamic lore (and sorry, that is very well known
to some people, YOU are not "some people). It may well be a coincidence
that HPL used a similar word with same sound/meaning. But it is one hell of
a coincidence that other writers (plural) picked up on and utlized for THEIR
fiction. I don't think HPL ever heard of that particular word.
Couthutlaugh - means a person willingly and knowingly, receives and conceals
an outlaw. You have commited couthutlaugh: it's in Black's Law Dictionary.
There is a good theory that HPL unconsciously used this since it was in use
at that time. A doctor or someone, wrote a paper about the real disease
HPL's dad had; I don't remember where it is, but I probably have it
somewhere.
>
> >You DO NOT think this is amazing?
Every creative writer thought it was amazing when they dug up this stuff (as
I show on notes, who dug what up and used it). What YOU think matters not.
Everything you think is negative - it's just an attempt to say nyaa nyaa
nyaa on what others think, or bring to the table to show.
If you find something so "tedious" - which obviously you do not since you
are become like unto a sniping dog barking at my heels - I suggest you don't
read it.
Have a kick.
Dan Norder
>Are you ADHD? Or on meds?
No, just sane.
>You seem to "see" raving where there is nothing
but a convo going on.
Hint: A conversation includes more than one person. You rant to yourself with
all sorts of weird things in replies ten times as long as what other people
post and think people care. That's not a conversation, that's a psychotic
break.
>Wrong. A Professor of Semetic languages wrote that,
>it is in Crypt/Cthulhu 14.
And he has been soundly debunked by all sorts of other people.
>It was not written by a bunch of frauds with intent
>to defraud anyone (Simon, Necronomicon).
Instead it's one person lying to himself and a handful of clueless types who
fell for it.
>Ketulhu means "he who is imprisoned."
So?
>Khadhullu is the name of the Beast in Islamic lore
>and sorry, that is very well known to some people
Not well enough known to make it into Knappert's Encyclopedia of Middle Eastern
Mythology & Religion. For something that's supposedly well known, it's not
showing up in the obvious places it would be if it were.
>I don't think HPL ever heard of that particular word.
Then shut up already. God, if you don't think he heard of it, who cares if
people came along later thought? This thread is about the origins of mythos
characters and which had real mythological roots. Your rants about some special
meaning you assign to the word are off topic.
>Couthutlaugh - means a person willingly and knowingly,
>receives and conceals an outlaw.
You know, your theories that Cthulhu was "obviously" based on any of these
words would be a lot less insane if you made up your mind *which* coincidental
slightly similar sounding term HPL used. This is your fourth or fifth word
you've presented as the obvious origin.
>There is a good theory that HPL unconsciously used this
>since it was in use at that time.
You are confusing wild assumptions with good theories again.
>A doctor or someone, wrote a paper about the real disease
>HPL's dad had; I don't remember where it is, but I probably have it
>somewhere.
What does this have to do with anything? It's just more off tangent ranting and
raving.
>What YOU think matters not.
And now you think you're Yoda. Man, get some help.
People's Commissar
interested in this type of thing - and they most definitely made use of it
in their fiction. I have many of their notes on the stuff. Where do you
think I GOT it?
In case you don't like the fact: HPL is not the only Cthulhu Mythos writer.
And another fact you probably hate: there is no such thing as "a Cthulhu
Mythos" according to HPL himself. Derleth coined the expression.
Another fact you might not like - people are indeed interested in this - I
can easily tell by the "hits" the articles get and the fact that it was
published 2 times in the past.
You seem to have some confusion on the above facts/issues. Other writers
that *created* fun which fans *liked* to read, most definitely did correlate
this stuff using similar sounding names with similar meanings.
You are jealous that you have absolutely nothing of value or interest to say
about anything at all. You just like to RAG on things in a (lol)
cacodaemoniacal manner.
Now - take a hike. You are becoming a pest with nothing to offer.
"Dan Norder" <dann...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021014031339...@mb-ff.aol.com...
He said nothing worth noticing.
S. D.
> Hint: A conversation includes more than one person. You rant to yourself
> with all sorts of weird things in replies ten times as long as what
> other people post and think people care. That's not a conversation,
> that's a psychotic break.
Thank you, it needed to be said!
> What does this have to do with anything? It's just more off tangent
> ranting and raving.
>
>>What YOU think matters not.
>
> And now you think you're Yoda. Man, get some help.
Continue in your lonely battle. It's almost Lovecraftian--you try to stem
the horde using your sanity as a shield--I just worry that some day you'll
snap and begin agreeing with him. And then I'll be the last one left.
Unfortunately I have no reference material to use in making attempts at
debunking those crazy associations he keeps coming up with--instead all I
have to rely on is a nagging sense that most of what he says "isn't quite
right" regardless of the little smatterings of logic and truth he likes to
throw in.
Yana
"S. D." <new...@sudog.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2002.10.21.14...@sudog.com...
> On Mon, 14 Oct 2002 00:13:39 -0700, Dan Norder wrote:
>
> > Hint: A conversation includes more than one person.
Anyone on a newsgroup is free to join in. Some do. Some are intimidated
away by people like you.
> You rant to yourself
You see rants because you are either stupid, or a censor at heart. I read
the same text and saw no ranting. I saw some interesting ideas instead of
the same dogmatic, tired ideas.
> > with all sorts of weird things in replies ten times as long as what
> > other people post and think people care.
Some do, and some read it and are interested in it.
That's not a conversation,
> > that's a psychotic break.
You are the psychotic "hearing" rants when others hear nothing of the sort.
>
> Thank you, it needed to be said!
You are stupid. *That* needs to be said. You are arrogant. *That needs to
be said. You are afraid to ask a question when you find yourself ignorant
of something. *That* needs to be said. You are not a thinker. *That* needs
to be said.
>
> Continue in your lonely battle.
Only one side tried to battle, from my view of the texts. One side had
nothing to say and tried to stifle new ideas and opinions. One side even
made it evidently clear what happens to people that simply ask a question
about the meaning of a word in another language. The other side made for
some interesting reading and openly answered questions.
It's almost Lovecraftian--you try to stem
> the horde using your sanity as a shield--
On the contrary. Censors are not stemming the tide a single thing except
new ideas and interesting reading. Lovecraft would spit on you. You don't
even have a conception of the extensive post-structuralism and
deconstruction that Lovecraft's *scholars* engaged in. You are stuck in
hopelessly Derlethian, dualistic views of gods, monsters, evil. Like a
child, you "get a kick" out of spooky things, read 100 times over the same
way with nary one attempt to do exactly what the scholars did and/or what
other innovative writers did. "They are supposed to be" is your dogma. In
fact, they are The Unknown. All scholars agree.
> Unfortunately I have no reference material to use in making attempts at
> debunking those crazy associations he keeps coming up with--
I had no problem finding most of it, either in stories or offline. I also
have no problem just asking, openly, (though supplying a correct email made
it easier to get emailed back). You are hopeless. That needs to be said.
If the likes of you didn't start trouble with people posting *new* ideas, or
didn't get so defensive about *small* criticisms, you wouldn't be here now,
wasting everyone's time complaining about something you really did not have
to complain about. I rarely post here. I read and reply to *only* what I
find interesting. This is an exception. It *needed* to be said.
Some people create. Others can only nay-say.
Y
S. D.
> "S. D." <new...@sudog.com> wrote in message
> news:pan.2002.10.21.14...@sudog.com...
>> On Mon, 14 Oct 2002 00:13:39 -0700, Dan Norder wrote:
>>
>> > Hint: A conversation includes more than one person.
>
> Anyone on a newsgroup is free to join in. Some do. Some are
> intimidated away by people like you.
Okay "Yana". Try picking an alias that doesn't match up so closely with
your name next time.
> You see rants because you are either stupid, or a censor at heart. I
> read the same text and saw no ranting. I saw some interesting ideas
> instead of the same dogmatic, tired ideas.
I see rants too. You were never discussing with me, only lecturing in ways
I couldn't possibly have verified. That's not only egotistical, but
ignorant and cruel on your part.
> You are the psychotic "hearing" rants when others hear nothing of the
> sort.
I'd just like to pipe up that I too "hear" your rants as rants. He's not
alone!
> You are stupid. *That* needs to be said. You are arrogant. *That
> needs to be said. You are afraid to ask a question when you find
> yourself ignorant of something. *That* needs to be said. You are not a
> thinker. *That* needs to be said.
I did ask a question. Quite a number of them. I also provided argument as
to why you were so far out in left field that the amount of work required
to debunk you wasn't worth it. You're not only wrong, but you're not even
wrong in a "gee I wonder if she's right" way. You're so wrong that normal
wrongness doesn't figure in your particular little insane, multiple
personality sock puppet world.
And my IQ sits up near 168. Any arrogance you perceive is me simply trying
to pull myself out from your incredibly bloated ass^H^H^Hego.
*THAT* needed to be said. "Yani."
> Only one side tried to battle, from my view of the texts. One side had
> nothing to say and tried to stifle new ideas and opinions. One side
> even made it evidently clear what happens to people that simply ask a
> question about the meaning of a word in another language. The other
> side made for some interesting reading and openly answered questions.
You were only interesting to yourself. I think it's sad how someone
can find themselves *that* interesting.
> On the contrary. Censors are not stemming the tide a single thing
What is this "censor" crap you keep trying to foist off on us? Perhaps you
should try to relax and little and stop spouting your assinine and
ridiculous random association crap..? And perhaps you should stop using so
many one-time aliases if you can't keep them straight on your own?
> except new ideas and interesting reading. Lovecraft would spit on you.
Would he now? That'd be amusing. I'm much bigger than he was and I can
bench press 400 lbs. I'd like to see him try. Of course, Lovecraft himself
was a far more interesting individual than you will ever be, and I think
I'd enjoy a respectful conversation with him. I personally enjoy
Lovecraft's work immensely and would've loved the chance to correspond
with him.
> You don't even have a conception of the extensive post-structuralism and
> deconstruction that Lovecraft's *scholars* engaged in. You are stuck in
> hopelessly Derlethian, dualistic views of gods, monsters, evil. Like a
Oh this is the best: Your little armchair Psyc 101 evaluation of me based
on some few messages posted to a basically anonymous Usenet group. Oh
that's rich. "Yani."
> child, you "get a kick" out of spooky things, read 100 times over the
> same way with nary one attempt to do exactly what the scholars did
> and/or what other innovative writers did. "They are supposed to be" is
> your dogma. In fact, they are The Unknown. All scholars agree.
Why don't you tell me precisely which scholars you are talking about, and
in what ways they agree? You're making some pretty broad generalizations
there that should probably be backed up with some facts.
> I had no problem finding most of it, either in stories or offline. I
> also have no problem just asking, openly, (though supplying a correct
> email made it easier to get emailed back). You are hopeless. That
> needs to be said.
Sorry what are you talking about with "correct" emails Ms.
"inns...@anonymousNOSPAM.to"? Who's hopeless with all her little false
aliases flying all over the place? Why not just pick an alias and
stick to it..? Or do you think all these extra voices in your head lend
credence to your spewage?
> If the likes of you didn't start trouble with people posting *new*
> ideas, or didn't get so defensive about *small* criticisms, you wouldn't
"New" ideas? Try "worthless" ideas. The big crunch has nothing to do with
"when the stars are more wide." That's just random association from a
laywoman who knows NOTHING about science, let alone logic or even good,
decent rhetoric.
> be here now, wasting everyone's time complaining about something you
> really did not have to complain about. I rarely post here. I read and
> reply to *only* what I find interesting. This is an exception. It
> *needed* to be said.
Perhaps you should try replying to his reply instead of mine. Or do you
think we're perhaps the same person and using your petty little
mind-trick tactics?
>
> Some people create. Others can only nay-say.
Wow. What a bad paraphrase of an equally bad quote taken completely out
of context.
>
> Y
You forgot to sign your name, "Tani."
Dclizardking
>Subject: Re: Cthulhu and myth
>From: "S. D." new...@sudog.com
>Date: 23/10/02 23:52 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <pan.2002.10.23.15....@sudog.com>
Dclizardking
informative observations and theories about the things that this newsgroup was
set up to discuss.
Tani, you are as welcome as anyone to make your opinions felt here, but please
try to be a little less aggressive when people disagree with you, as it spoils
this excellent and informative ng. After all we are all here because we love
the stories that make up the Cthulhu Mythos, and we want to share our opinions
with others who may or may not always agree with us.
RobStoll
>Isn't it time that people on this newsgroup got back to posting interesting
>and
>informative observations and theories about the things that this newsgroup
>was
>set up to discuss.
This coming from someone who posted the entirety of a long back-and-forth
pissing contest for no reason whatsoever? While adding nothing but, "Welcome to
the Tani appreciation thread, see below, sorry see inside?" What purpose did
that serve? If you want this nonsense to go away, then ignore it. Don't
respond. And especially don't get all high and mighty about getting things back
to normal, right after fanning the flames yourself. Just killfile the idiots
and move on.
Robert
Dclizardking
of judgement in the first post, which was the reason I made the second post in
the first place. So all I can say is sorry.
RobStoll
>You are of course absolutely correct, I hold my tentacle up and admit my
>error
>of judgement in the first post, which was the reason I made the second post
>in
>the first place. So all I can say is sorry.
No harm, no foul. I accidentally fed the troll earlier myself. Sorry if I came
off sounding a bit cranky.
Robert
People's Commissar
about "the stuff in the stories" offline. And it was very interesting, imo.
I enjoyed reading it.
There are a lot of people into the fiction itself that get into the stories,
and we email each other. I thought this ng was about the stories. I see
it's not.
They really did NOT have to get so negative when I posted PRO Deep One
views. I'm entitled to a view, I'm entitled to agree with Walakea or take
"wonder and glory" literally. I don't post to things I'm not interested in.
But being attacked for having a post structuralist view is just - SHEESH.
I happen to ike Derleth, Carter, Leiber and the other mythos writers that
were inspired to write tales and have fun with this stuff.
If the person realized that the "crunch" idea was used in a story - he'd
have better been able to just ASK about it. But he did not do that. He
shimed in in negative tones with a person who trashed another poster for
asking about two Greek words.
Whatever.
"RobStoll" <robs...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20021023200613...@mb-mu.aol.com...
People's Commissar
That really what that was all about. No need to make it some personal thing
because they did. Pro Deep Ones.
"RobStoll" <robs...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20021023200613...@mb-mu.aol.com...
People's Commissar
Are you saying you don't like the Deep Ones? Sure you do. You also like
Cthulhu. Without them, you'd not like the mythos.
What if HPL called it the "Call of Tiamat" or the "Call of the Jinn?" Get
the point?
You like Cthulhu and the Deep Ones. So do I. Our views of them probably
differ (well, views of DO's at any rate). I don't see them as green
monsters.
"RobStoll" <robs...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20021023225617...@mb-fc.aol.com...
graywyvern
museum there, i found a statuette of a Coast Salish deity
called "Sxwaixwe" that was pretty creepy. i did some research,
& Sxwaixwe was said to dwell at the bottom of Puget Sound...
PS the sound symbolized here by "xw" sounds very nearly like
a person gagging on a mis-swallowed bite of steak
graywyvern
> i spent a winter in Seattle a few years ago, & in the local
> museum there, i found a statuette of a Coast Salish deity
> called "Sxwaixwe" that was pretty creepy.
there's a picture at: