New Furnace Electrical Noise Problem
MLD
picture on a TV set (rabbit ears antenna) on the floor right above it goes
haywire. The picture becomes almost unwatchable because of all the noise
streaks and snow in it. The source of the problem is the Vent Blower
(Inducer motor)--the electrical noise is only present when it runs.
So far, following Trane's service Tech instructions, the HVAC Co techs have
done the following:
1. Checked to make sure that there is a good ground between the furnace and
the earth ground.
2. Replace the wiring harness to the vent blower with a shielded
harness--Trane may call it a shielded harness but the shielding ends about 6
inches from the motor. So there is 6 inches of unshielded wiring which to me
is like not having any shielding at all.
3. Replaced the control board.
Why they haven't suggested replacing the Vent Blower is a mystery to me.
However, while there has been quite a bit of improvement the TV noise
problem still exists. Now waiting on the results of a discussion between
HVAC Co.and Trane.
I've been told that I'm not the only one that has experienced this problem.
Has anyone else seen something like this?
MLD
Brian O
"MLD" <M...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:vU3Yd.65224$W16.61022@trndny07...
Being an electronic technician, that would immediately draw my suspicions.
B
Bob Pietrangelo
XL80,XV80,XL90 all have 2 stage inducers. We need more info. Don't thye
have cable or dish in your neighborhood. What happens if you move the TV,
shouldn't be hard with no cable. Does it do it the entire time the
equipment is running or for a shorter period of time. If it is a 2 stage
system does it hapen on low and high fire.
--
Bob Pietrangelo
bo...@comcast.net
b...@comfort-solution.biz
www.comfort-solution.biz
On Time or Your Service Call is FREE
Preventive Maintenance Specialist
"Brian O" <brian...@lispwest.com> wrote in message
news:d0qkc...@enews2.newsguy.com...
Mark
A motor without brushes (like a fan) should not cause any TV
interferecne at all. A motor with brushes (like a drill) will be very
difficult to prevent the interference.
Is this a gas or oil furnace. If it is oil, it may be the high voltage
ignitor and not the blower that is causing the interfrecne. This
may be easier to cure.
Mark
Bob Pietrangelo
am.
--
Bob Pietrangelo
bo...@comcast.net
b...@comfort-solution.biz
www.comfort-solution.biz
On Time or Your Service Call is FREE
Preventive Maintenance Specialist
"Mark" <mako...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1110513337.5...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
MLD
In response to your comments-The furnace is a gas fired XV90 with a variable
speed blower. The noise/interference problem begins as soon as the inducer
motor starts to rotate, well before the furnace fires and before the main
blower starts. The noise remains until the inducer motor shuts down even
though the main blower is still running. I ran the blower only (set the
system on Auto) with nothing else operating (no call for heat) and there was
no interference problem. This is the second XV90 furnace, the first one was
replaced after being in service for about a year, per Trane, when it
developed an internal condensate water leak problem due to poor welding. No
noise/interference with that furnace and interestingly enough, the first
thing noticed when the current one was being installed was the fact that the
inducer motors, old vs new, were completely different looking configurations
with respect to one another.
Yes I have cable and haven't tried experimenting with the TV location as it
is academic--The interference is still there and now I can use it as a good
indicator with respect to the success of any proposed fix
Most electronic equipment must meet specific FCC requirements with respect
RF generated noise. Does anyone know if something like this falls under the
same guidelines?
MLD
"Bob Pietrangelo" <bo...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Gt-dnYH2U9_...@comcast.com...
Ralph Mowery
> with respect to one another.
> Yes I have cable and haven't tried experimenting with the TV location as
it
> is academic--The interference is still there and now I can use it as a
good
> indicator with respect to the success of any proposed fix
> Most electronic equipment must meet specific FCC requirements with respect
> RF generated noise. Does anyone know if something like this falls under
the
> same guidelines?
> MLD
Most everything that can cause interferance with the radio or TV is under
somekind of FCC rules or athority. The furnace company may have a solution
for it . If they do not have an addon or filter for it, then request they
replace it with one that does not cause a problem.
YOu may be able to look under www.fcc.gov for some information.
Mark
and you have CABLE TV?
You say the inducer motor is variable speed?
Is it continuously variable like a drill or does it have say 2 speeds
that can be selected?
Is there an electronic device that controls the speed?
Mark
MLD
to the Cable. It uses rabbit ears. As an aside--before some of the fixes
were put in place, the RF noise was also picked up by a radio located within
10 ft. of the furnace--lots of static that would go away when the inducer
motor stopped. I don't know the specifics about the inducer motor with
respect to whether or not it is a variable speed motor. Makes no
difference, however, since the RF interference starts as soon as the motor
does.
MLD
Mark
I think you want to determine if it is a brush type motor and the
sparking at the brushes are casing the prob or if it is a variable
speed motor controlled by electronics like a lamp dimmer in an electric
drill and maybe the electronics are casuing a prob.
Does the motor change speed. Does it seem like an electic drill motor
or a fan motor.
Mark
Mark
But it is a shame that these new products are designed without
consideration about RF interference.
Mark
MLD
kitchen (not convenient for routing a cable) and do not want to compensate
for a poor design. Also don't care what kind of motor it is as there is
nothing I can or will do to fix it on my own. This has to be resolved by the
manufacturer. Will continue to work with my HVAC Co and go after Trane to
provide a resolution. Having said all that---the biggest improvement came
when the motor wiring harness was replaced with a "shielded" harness. As I
noted in an earlier post, the shielding stops about 6 in. or so from the
motor. My own work experience indicates that even an inch or so of exposed
wire is more than enough to pick up these noisy RF signals and create a
problem. If I can lay my hands on some braided wire mesh I will cover the
exposed wiring and see what happens then.
MLD
Gideon
My impression is that you expect the installer to eliminate any unreasonable
RF that the equipment is producing, and that you are seeking advice and
experimenting to aid the HVAC company in finding & fixing the problem.
I agree - in your situation I'd do the same.
Also, I agree with you about the cable drops. We've got 5 TVs connected to
cable, but we've also got a few that aren't. I don't want those on cable for a
variety of reasons - too much splitting of the cable signal, difficult cable
runs, appearance, etc. Even if extra cable drops would fix the problem,
I'd still want the furnace not generating all that RF.
Suggestions:
1) Just as a sanity check, use a portable battery operated radio to see how
much noise it picks up from the furnace. From what you have said, I'd expect
that it would also have a problem. But you want to confirm that the
interference is coming through the air and not through the house wiring.
2) Experiment with the shielded harness. Seems to me that you could use some
aluminum foil to carefully extend the shielding another 6 inches. If that
helps substantially, then get the HVAC folks to do it correctly. I'd also want
to know why the harness is generating so much RF in the first place.
Good luck,
Gideon
======================
MLD wrote in message ...
MLD
"Gideon" <zero...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:rlRZd.19573$4k2...@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
wire would end up being exposed in a dining room and also be in the way of
other things,. I've already experimented with some of the things that you
mentioned. I have a radio within 10 ft. of the furnace that is definitely
not on the same circuit as the furnace. Initially it would produce enough
static to almost drown out the sound whenever the inducer motor started up.
It's much more quiet now for whatever reason. I will try a battery powered
radio and see what that does. Early on I did take some aluminum foil and
loosely wrapped it around the wires close to the motor--- no improvement.
Will try to improve on this approach if I can find some braded (mesh)
shielding.
Almost positive, but to close the loop I do need to verify that the furnace
and TV are not on the same circuit.
In case you missed earlier comments, this is a replacement furnace, original
was only one year old,experienced a failure that resulted in Trane
recommendig its removal. No RF problem with the original furnace. The
significant difference between the two of them is the inducer motor. The
newer one is bigger and with the housing slotted such that you can see the
motor windings. With respect to the wiring harness, I can understand
shielding it so that it wouldn't pick up stray signals that could impact the
behavior of the furnace controls. I don't understand, however, why the
wires would radiate signals---I still would like to see the motor replaced.
So faar, Trane has taken the shot-gun approach to troubleshooting.
MLD
Mark
shield to ground it. Ungrounded, the foil will do very little.
Be very careful that you don't short anything.
Mark
Jim
> Have a new High Efficiency Trane Gas Furnace. Every time it fires up the
> picture on a TV set (rabbit ears antenna) on the floor right above it goes
> haywire. The picture becomes almost unwatchable because of all the noise
> streaks and snow in it.
I have a brand new high efficiency AUY American Standard furnace, which is
exactly the same as the
Trane XV90, except for the exterior label. It has a variable speed fan motor
and a variable speed exhaust (aka draft inducer) motor. I've noticed the same
thing that you have, the draft inducer motor makes a lot of e-noise. The noise
starts as soon as the inducer motors starts (e.g. before the burner lights and
before the blower motor starts) and ends as soon as the inducer motor stops
(e.g. when the burner shuts down but the blower is still operating), so I've
determined the inducer motor is the source of the noise.
In my case, we have cable TV and I've only noticed the noise on AM radio. The
noise is quite on all stations except for a 50,000 W station 2 miles away, and
even on that station the furnace noise is audible in the background.
I haven't complained about this noise yet (trying to get a sizing error fixed)
but am interested in any resolution to this problem---you're not alone!
Jim
>
> In my case, we have cable TV and I've only noticed the noise on AM radio. The
> noise is quite on all stations except for a 50,000 W station 2 miles away, and
> even on that station the furnace noise is audible in the background.
Correction: noise is quite *loud* on all stations.
I should add that the American Standard AUY (also known as the Trane XV90) furnace
series is a natural gas furnace with a variable DC brushless blower fan motor. The
inducer motor is variable too, but it may be a brush type motor, causing the
noise. It must be quite a bit because it causes interference on the radio in my
car as I approach the house.
Tony Hwang
Ever tried ferrite core chokes to suppress noises or bypass caps?
Tony
MLD
motor and did the best I could to make sure that it was touching the harness
shield. I also wrapped foil around the motor housing--just long enough to
determine if it effective or not. As far as I could tell there was no
discernable change. Still waiting on Trane to come up with something.
MLD
MLD
"Jim" <j...@jim.jim> wrote in message news:423A53DC...@jim.jim...
harness between the inducer motor and the control board (with, per Trane, a
shielded harness) made a significant differnece in the RF interference in
the TV picture. Didn't eliminate it though--at least this gives you some
direction with respect to trying to fix the problem.
MLD
>
Goedjn
Is the harness shield or anything else actually grounded?
MLD
"Goedjn" <pr...@mail.uri.edu> wrote in message
news:912m31lp7n3mg3o0a...@4ax.com...
The end of the harness connected to the control board has the shield going
to the same pin as the green ground wire. (Both connect together at the back
of the connector). At the end of the harness going to the motor the
shielding ends about 6 inches from the motor connector and is floating--that
is, connected to nothing!.I guess the next step should be-----make a
positive connection from the floating shield to a ground. What do you
think?
MLD
Mark
I'm gonna GUESS that this motor is also brushless but that it is
variable speed and is controlled by some electronic device that uses
Triacs like in a lamp dimmer and it is this "dimming circuit" that is
actually casing the problem. Can you see any brushes sparking going on
inside the motor? If it is indeed a brushless motor and the problem is
the electronics, I'm gonna also GUESS it's a design problem and you may
have to go to Trane to engineer a solution. Got any ham radio
operators near you. They would be very happy to help you as your
furnace is probably causing them grief.
Mark
MLD
motor I dug out the Installer's guide. Listed under Service facts is the
specs for all of the major components. In the wiring schematic the motor is
identified as a "Vent Motor" and it does not indicate whether or not it is
an AC or DC motor.
The schematic does not indicate that the wiring harness between the motor
and the control board is a shielded harness. Could just be a sloppy
representation of the truth or a recent fix that Trane has been using in
response to the RF noise problem. In the Specs the motor is called a
"Combustor Fan", not to be confused with the Blower Motor. Specs are as
follows:
Type--- --------------Centrifugal
Drive-No. Speeds---- Direct - Variable
Motor HP-RPM-------1/50 - 5000
Volts/Ph/Hz------------33 - 110/3/60 - 180
FLA-------------------1.0
Just some more info.
MLD
KHE
creates a great deal of radio frequency interference on all bands of my
radio. KHE
--
Micky
hrho...@att.net
> Have a new High Efficiency Trane Gas Furnace. Every time it fires up the
> picture on a TV set (rabbit ears antenna) on the floor right above it goes
> haywire. The picture becomes almost unwatchable because of all the noise
> streaks and snow in it. The source of the problem is the Vent Blower
> (Inducer motor)--the electrical noise is only present when it runs.
> So far, following Trane's service Tech instructions, the HVAC Co techs have
> done the following:
> 1. Checked to make sure that there is a good ground between the furnace and
> the earth ground.
> 2. Replace the wiring harness to the vent blower with a shielded
> harness--Trane may call it a shielded harness but the shielding ends about 6
> inches from the motor. So there is 6 inches of unshielded wiring which to me
> is like not having any shielding at all.
> 3. Replaced the control board.
> Why they haven't suggested replacing the Vent Blower is a mystery to me.
> However, while there has been quite a bit of improvement the TV noise
> problem still exists. Now waiting on the results of a discussion between
> HVAC Co.and Trane.
> I've been told that I'm not the only one that has experienced this problem.
> Has anyone else seen something like this?
> MLD
gregz
switched pulse fan system. I attached ferrites on all wires comming out of
furnace, including thermostat. It helped some.
Greg
Gator
>> MLD wrote:
>>
>> Have a new High Efficiency Trane Gas Furnace. Every time it fires up the
>> picture on a TV set (rabbit ears antenna) on the floor right above it goes
>> haywire. The picture becomes almost unwatchable because of all the noise
>> streaks and snow in it. The source of the problem is the Vent Blower
>> (Inducer motor)--the electrical noise is only present when it runs.
>> So far, following Trane's service Tech instructions, the HVAC Co techs have
>> done the following:
>> 1. Checked to make sure that there is a good ground between the furnace and
>> the earth ground.
>> 2. Replace the wiring harness to the vent blower with a shielded
>> harness--Trane may call it a shielded harness but the shielding ends about
> 6
Make sure teh furnace and the tv are not on same circuit.
hrho...@att.net
Tony Hwang
> Using the battery operated portable am radio is the best that you can do without sophisticated equipment. See if the noise appears to be radiated into the house, or is it being conducted onto the power lines at the furnace and then carried by the power lines throughout the house.
>
with the noise problem. DC VS motor servo circuit board is
source of noise most likely.
gregz
Aircraft vs CB, etc.
I first noticed FM broadcast interference while taking car out. Turn out to
be my LED outside lights running switched curren limiting. Ferrites helped.
Greg
Micky
wrote:
><hrho...@att.net> wrote:
>> Using the battery operated portable am radio is the best that you can do
>> without sophisticated equipment. See if the noise appears to be radiated
>> into the house, or is it being conducted onto the power lines at the
>> furnace and then carried by the power lines throughout the house.
>
>Use increasing frequency to better pinpoint. AM. CB vs AM broadcast.
>Aircraft vs CB, etc.
>
>I first noticed FM broadcast interference while taking car out. Turn out to
interfered with FM radio in the car? In your house? That's
terrible!
gregz
wire antenna.
Greg
Micky
new one.
Tony Hwang
billyin...@gmail.com
mako...@yahoo.com
> Here is an RF (RFI) Kit: http://www.crompton.com/hamradio/Trane%20XV95%20RFI%20Documentation.pdf
M
trader_4
And what a kit. It's not just one simple 5 min thing.
Glad I bought a Rheem instead of the more expensive Trane, Carrier, etc. stuff.
No EMI here.
Slowpoke
i am having the same problem with my ham radio station.....the vent blower
runs 4 minutes then the furnance blower starts while the vent blower still
runs for another 4 minutes then it shuts off and my noise disappears from my
radio but the furnance motor still runs with no noise on my radio.....
please help me get rid of this noise......furnance only 1.4 years
old......hhheeelllpppp.....
--
posted from
http://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/new-furnace-electrical-noise-problem-460414-.htm
trader_4
should know more about this than folks in AHR. No ham groups?
Slowpoke
Slowpoke
mako...@yahoo.com
Threaten to report them to the FCC.
This equipment should never have been allowed in residential areas with
Passing FCC EMI tests.
Slowpoke
Slowpoke
Slowpoke
Slowpoke
Mike
-loose component
-loose ground connection?
-bad power supply for vent motor?
-bad vent motor?
Tony944
"Slowpoke" wrote in message
news:acc0c$5709318d$cf3aab60$17...@news.flashnewsgroups.com...
igniter is causing noise.
cica
Uncle Monster
[8~{} Uncle Noisy Monster
cl...@snyder.on.ca
as it is MUCH more durable.
Uncle Monster
https://www.theignitorstore.com/
[8~{} Uncle Carbide Monster