History of Wales
Margaret
to Wales. So are the Welsh people mainly descended from those Britons? Also
is the Welsh language derived from that ancient language from the Britons?
Hope someone can help.
Gary Grella
a.spencer3
Margaret <rut...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3c8e9...@mercury.planet.net.au...
So no-one was living in Wales at the time?
Surreyman
Nightjar
fled
> to Wales. So are the Welsh people mainly descended from those Britons?
Very broadly, pre-Roman Britain was settled by people who were part of the
group of peoples known to the Romans as Gauls, but more often known today as
Celts.
After the fall of the Roman Empire, Britain was invaded by Germanic tribes,
including the Saxons and the Angles. Naturally, they, and later invaders,
tended to land on the bit closest to continental Europe and then spread
westwards. The land was very lightly settled and they did not necessarily
drive out all of the original people, but they did come to be the dominant
people in the areas they settled.
The Welsh principalities were one part of Britain that was not settled by
the Germanic tribes. At this time, the Welsh principalities covered not only
Wales, but what we know today as Cornwall, the Lake District and the
Strathclyde area of Scotland. The Scots held part of Scotland on the West
Coast, north of Dumbarton, but not extending further north than about the
Isle of Mull. The rest of modern Scotland, down the the Forth of Firth was
occupied by the Picts. The modern day occupants of all of these areas and of
Ireland are primarily descended from Celtic peoples.
> Also
> is the Welsh language derived from that ancient language from the Britons?
The ancient tongues of Wales, Scotland, Ireland and Cornwall are all Gaelic
languages, which derive from the languages of the pre-Roman inhabitants of
the British Isles. As Wales was occupied, more or less, by the Romans, I
would expect Welsh to show some signs of Latin influence.
Colin Bignell
Vaughan Sanders
"Gary Grella" <All...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3Wxj8.5461$tP2.5...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Gary, what formatt are you using?
<Margaret :
< I believe it was the angols who defeated the Brettons.
You missed out the Romans
<Later came the Saxons who conquered the angols.
Nothing to do with the Vikings then.
<Both angols and saxons were teutonic tribes. The only remnant of angol
involvement in mainland europe is a small town in the north-east of france
called : Angol and a dialect in Holland. The angols were forced out of
europe by competeing teutonic tribes.
The Angles possible just all moved to what is now *England* (Angle-land).
<All teutonic tribes were illiterate.
Any evidence for this, I was under the impression, Anglo-Saxon was the first
language to have a written history other than Latin or Greek, in the western
world.
<The only exception was the germani who developed roones. Roones was
created in order to understand the scrolls that the Roman messengers were
carrying. This is the reason teutonic peoples today use the same alphabet
we use.
Can you explain how Runes can be used to translate Latin into Anglo-Saxon?
Hippo?
<The only kelts i am aware of as being literate were the kelts of roman
Bretton.
Quite a lot then
<Also, the irish did develop an ancient written language they called Ogham
after their acient name for Ireland : Tir na h'Og. Land of Og.
Have you a source for this, I can't find a reference but there's some on
Ossian forgeries.
Did the Irish bring this language with them from Spain (Galicia)?
<Anyway, the angols did push many, not most, brettons toward what the angols
called Vallessa.
Any Evidence for this, who was living in Wales during the Roman period then
<At the time of the angol invasion, brettons spoke various dialects of
Gealic.
Seems a resonable assumption
<Their gealic was mixed with latin, the language of the Romans. Irish
gealic was never mixed as much as the other gealic speaking peoples of
Bretton. Irish gealic has little latin, little gealic, etc.
More or less than Welsh ? can you give any examples.
<Although, it does have some french and norse language as a result of the
norse and noreman invasions.
DNA studies show the Vikings (Norwegian genes) had little impact on Ireland
or Wales, most impact was on Scotland and northern England.
nb. Danish and Anglo-Saxon genes can't be distinguished, so the impact on
southern England is hard to tell, this would include the Normans.
<It was these conquered romanized kelts of Bretton who taught the angols and
the saxons to read.
Any evidence for this? presumably this must have been the original Celtic
language then.
(A-S)
*brocen wurde. Het þa hyssa hwæne hors forlætan, feor afysan, and forð
gangan, hicgan to handum and to hige godum.*
*would be broken. Then he ordered a warrior each horse be let free, driven
afar and advance onward, giving thought to deeds of arms and to steadfast
courage.*
<That is why English today sound very little like a teutonic language and is
conjugated like a romance language.
A-S is structured more like modern German than modern English but I doubt
any German speaker could translate it?
The earliest known Celtic scribe in Britain, is Gildas who wrote in Latin,
St Patrick wrote two letters in Latin, but he was Welsh so probably couldn't
write in Irish.
<The angols and saxons never contributed the majority of genes in the gene
pool in Britain.
Any evidence for this ? I wonder how the English became the largest tribe
then.
< Bretton is a contraction of two words. Bray, still a common irish sir
name and dun, a word that means fortification. Another irish word is
caschel that means a wall of piled rocks around a dun. Today, we know that
castles contain dungeons. The word dun, came to be the word Town.
Not from the Latin *Britannia* then
Town is not from the A-S *ton* then
<The teutonic word for town is berg.
Burgs were fortified towns in A-S
<Welcome to London. Welcome to moon town.
That's cleared up an argument then.
<The kelts never called themselves kelts, just as the indians never called
themselves indians. Keltoi is a greek work that means the others. When
brettons consolidated themselves in Wales, they could resist the angol/saxon
invasion.
Any evidence for an invasion or this consolidation?
Any evidence the Silures or Ordivices of Wales, would have been any more
happy to see the Brigantes setting up camp on their land, than they would
the Giwissi or the Romans.
<That's why Welch retains its keltic phonetics. The word Bretton is not an
English word, it's keltic. Bretton encompaces Brittany in France,
Ireland, Scotland, England, Wales, and Corning and all the out islands.
English is the newest language in the world.
Presumably the Angles just grunted at each other before they came to Bretton
and met the Keltoi.
<French is the second youngset for the same reasons. It too sounds nothing
like a teutonic language and is the result of similar historical events
leading to the formation of the modern english language. Bretton is about
8,000 year old. The oldest known building in the world is in New Grange in
ireland. I believe the welch have a history just as long as the irish.
Remember, it was the conquerers who wrote the history. Now, science is
adding far more knowledge.
Does this story get better with a few more pints of Guinness?
Jamie
Steffan Ellis
fled
> to Wales.
I think the idea that the Britons all fled westwards when the Saxons began
to arrive is widely dismissed by historians and archaeologists these days.
>So are the Welsh people mainly descended from those Britons?
Yes.
> Also is the Welsh language derived from that ancient language from the
>Britons?
Yes
Steffan Ellis
Roy Bailey
Gary Grella <All...@worldnet.att.net> writes
> Margaret :
[Snipped]
Someone needs to invest in a good spellchecker.
--
Roy Bailey
West Berkshire.
a.spencer3
Roy Bailey <ne...@westberks.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:aoPddhA9...@westberks.demon.co.uk...
> Someone needs to invest in a good spellchecker.
Especially when getting onto the Welsh words!
Surreyman
hippo
"Margaret" wrote in message n
> Was reading that when the Saxons came to Britain, the original Britons
fled
> to Wales.
Not all of them fled anywhere. Others were gradually pushed West into
Cornwall, Wales, Devon and North.
So are the Welsh people mainly descended from those Britons?
No, only some of them. There was already a Welsh population before the
Germanic invasions and there were later invasions from Ireland, the Viking
islands of Man and the Hebrides that included a mixed population, and
Saxon/Norman/English England. The modern Welsh are a mix of all these
peoples.
Also
> is the Welsh language derived from that ancient language from the Britons?
It is in part. The Celtic language of modern Wales is the product of at
least two Celtic invasions of the area which spoke sepparate but related
languages with loanwords from dozzens of other languages over time. -the
Troll
Steffan Ellis
"hippo" <hi...@southsudan.net> wrote in message
news:euLj8.209023$7a1.18...@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
>
> "Margaret" wrote in message n
>
> > Was reading that when the Saxons came to Britain, the original Britons
> fled
> > to Wales.
>
> Not all of them fled anywhere. Others were gradually pushed West into
> Cornwall, Wales, Devon and North.
Which others? I'm not sure that there is much evidence for migrations into
the peripheries of post-Roman Britain.
>
> So are the Welsh people mainly descended from those Britons?
>
> No, only some of them. There was already a Welsh population before the
> Germanic invasions and there were later invasions from Ireland, the Viking
> islands of Man and the Hebrides that included a mixed population, and
> Saxon/Norman/English England. The modern Welsh are a mix of all these
> peoples.
Wouldn't they also have been Britons?
>
> Also
> > is the Welsh language derived from that ancient language from the
Britons?
>
> It is in part. The Celtic language of modern Wales is the product of at
> least two Celtic invasions of the area which spoke sepparate but related
> languages with loanwords from dozzens of other languages over time. -the
> Troll
>
I'm not sure I follow that at all. Could you explain? Are you talking about
pre-Roman Britain?
Steffan Ellis
hippo
"Steffan Ellis" wrote in message
> "hippo" wrote in message
> > "Margaret" wrote in message in
> > > Was reading that when the Saxons came to Britain, the original Britons
> > fled
> > > to Wales.
> > Not all of them fled anywhere. Others were gradually pushed West into
> > Cornwall, Wales, Devon and North.
> Which others? I'm not sure that there is much evidence for migrations into
> the peripheries of post-Roman Britain.
The Britons did not 'flee' to Wales but some, not all or probably not even
most, migrated there over time as the A-Ss pushed West. There were movements
of Irish into Wales and Scotland, and Norse to the Western Islands, Northern
Scotland and Ireland. They probably shouldn't be called 'migrations'.
> > So are the Welsh people mainly descended from those Britons?
> >
> > No, only some of them. There was already a Welsh population before the
> > Germanic invasions and there were later invasions from Ireland, the
Viking
> > islands of Man and the Hebrides that included a mixed population, and
> > Saxon/Norman/English England. The modern Welsh are a mix of all these
> > peoples.
> Wouldn't they also have been Britons?
To whom do you refer?
> > Also
> > > is the Welsh language derived from that ancient language from the
> Britons?
> > It is in part. The Celtic language of modern Wales is the product of at
> > least two Celtic invasions of the area which spoke sepparate but related
> > languages with loanwords from dozzens of other languages over time. -the
> > Troll
> >
>
> I'm not sure I follow that at all. Could you explain? Are you talking
about
> pre-Roman Britain?
>
> Steffan Ellis
I believe we recognize, from linguistic and historic evidence, at least
three Celtic invasions of Britain. The last dated to the end of the first
century BCE. Linguistic remnants suggest two separate Celtic invasions of
Wales. Modern Welsh has influences by English, Latin and probably the
pre-Celtic language as well as Norman French and others. -the Troll
Vaughan Sanders
"Vaughan Sanders" <ja...@chalkwell-windsurfing.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:...
>
>
> "Gary Grella" <All...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:3Wxj8.5461$tP2.5...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
snip
> <French is the second youngset for the same reasons. It too sounds
nothing
> like a teutonic language and is the result of similar historical events
> leading to the formation of the modern english language. Bretton is about
> 8,000 year old. The oldest known building in the world is in New Grange in
> ireland. I believe the welch have a history just as long as the irish.
> Remember, it was the conquerers who wrote the history. Now, science is
> adding far more knowledge.
New Grange, a pre-Celtic burial mound is dated (carbon 14) to 3000 BC.
The oldest known archaeological evidence of the Keltoi is Hallstatt in
Austria dated to around 800 BC.
The oldest known archaeological evidence of the Keltoi culture in Britain or
Ireland is dated to around 400 BC.
DNA samples taken from Hochdorf in Germany, a Keltoi burial dated to 540 BC
could show no connection to the modern population of Wales.
I believe antlers of a Great Irish Elk (I'm not 100% sure of species of the
antlers) were found at New Grange, the Great Irish Elk went extinct
mysteriously in Ireland around 5000 BC. These stags feature in Irish
mythology, but there would be no way of knowing how long the owner of the
antlers had been dead when they were placed in New Grange.
Jamie
hippo
"Vaughan Sanders" wrote in message
> "Vaughan Sanders" wrote in message
> news:...
> > "Gary Grella" wrote in message
> snip
Fascinating, but no one seriously claims the Welsh are racial Celts, only
that their language is and important aspects of their culture. I think
everyone understands that the racial character of Europe was mostly set
during the Neolithic, and that the Keltoi were the product of the infusion
of Indo-European language and aspects of their culture into the indigenous
Neolithic racial stock, language and culture. -the Troll
Vaughan Sanders
"hippo" <hi...@southsudan.net> wrote in message
news:Keck8.381726$Aw2.31...@bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
>
snip
>
> Fascinating, but no one seriously claims the Welsh are racial Celts, only
> that their language is and important aspects of their culture. I think
> everyone understands that the racial character of Europe was mostly set
> during the Neolithic, and that the Keltoi were the product of the infusion
> of Indo-European language and aspects of their culture into the indigenous
> Neolithic racial stock, language and culture. -the Troll
>
>
Do you know anything about the origins of Runes, were they invented by the
Germanic tribes?
I know the Vikings used this form of writing, a carved stone in Denmark
tells the story of Harold Bluetooth's conversion to Christianity using
Runes. The Vikings were under a lot of pressure at this time, from Otto I,
Emperor of the Saxon's, who was a bit of a Christian zealot.
By the time the Vikings minted coins in England (early in the reign of
Alfred the Great) they were using Latin.
(Copies of A-S coins but in very high quality silver)
Presumably from this, Runes were still in use in the Viking homelands after
the settlers in England had started to use Latin.
Jamie
Steffan Ellis
<SNIP>
> I believe we recognize, from linguistic and historic evidence, at least
> three Celtic invasions of Britain. The last dated to the end of the first
> century BCE. Linguistic remnants suggest two separate Celtic invasions of
> Wales. Modern Welsh has influences by English, Latin and probably the
> pre-Celtic language as well as Norman French and others. -the Troll
>
>
I'm with you now on the other stuff you wrote. Aren't the various Celtic
invasions being reassessed nowadays? Barry Cunliffe seems to be of the
opinion that there was a 'Celtic' language being spoken in Britain possibly
in Neolithic times.
If we are talking about Wales, I'm not so sure that their were as many new
invasions as has been supposed. Belgic tribes may have moved into the
eastern parts of England, but did they get as far as what is now Wales?
(given the terrain etc - did they want to?)
Thanks for your answer.
Best wishes.
Steffan Ellis
hippo
"Vaughan Sanders" wrote in message
> "hippo" wrote in message
> snip
> > Fascinating, but no one seriously claims the Welsh are racial Celts,
only
> > that their language is and important aspects of their culture. I think
> > everyone understands that the racial character of Europe was mostly set
> > during the Neolithic, and that the Keltoi were the product of the
infusion
> > of Indo-European language and aspects of their culture into the
indigenous
> > Neolithic racial stock, language and culture.
> Do you know anything about the origins of Runes, were they invented by the
> Germanic tribes?
There is a lot of speculation about their origins. The best, I think, is
that they were an adaptation of a mixed Greco-Etruscan alphabet from about
the second/third century BCE for carving on wood, and probably by Celts, not
Germans. A bronze helmet was discovered in the Balkans with a very early
runic inscription. The adaptation probably took place somewhere in Northern
Italy or Dalmatia. Runes were not used for secular writing by the Germans
but as part of the magician's kit bag of tricks. They were supposed to have
magical properties which transferred to any object, and by extension to its
owner, upon which they were cut. The Celts had a priestly class which did
not approve of writing as it would reduce their powers of memory. The
Germans did not; the head householder providing that function, which in part
explains why runes seem to be a German invention. There use was more general
then supposed because they were usually written on perishable wood. Most
inscriptions are names of owners/makers of an object, burial markers and
undecipherable incantations. Each rune had a value as a glyph as well as an
alphabetic one. -the Troll
hippo
"Steffan Ellis" wrote in message
> "hippo" wrote in message
> <SNIP>
>
> > I believe we recognize, from linguistic and historic evidence, at least
> > three Celtic invasions of Britain. The last dated to the end of the
first
> > century BCE. Linguistic remnants suggest two separate Celtic invasions
of
> > Wales. Modern Welsh has influences by English, Latin and probably the
> > pre-Celtic language as well as Norman French and others. -the Troll
> >
> >
>
> I'm with you now on the other stuff you wrote. Aren't the various Celtic
> invasions being reassessed nowadays? Barry Cunliffe seems to be of the
> opinion that there was a 'Celtic' language being spoken in Britain
possibly
> in Neolithic times.
That is certainly possible but unlikely in that the first Indo-European
incursions into Europe, based upon the most recent thinking and
archaeological evidence from the Dobruja, didn't begin until about 4000 BCE.
Since these folk were not ever in large numbers, it must have taken some
time for them to 'adjust' the Neolithic culture they bumped into the warlike
Celt.
> If we are talking about Wales, I'm not so sure that their were as many new
> invasions as has been supposed. Belgic tribes may have moved into the
> eastern parts of England, but did they get as far as what is now Wales?
> (given the terrain etc - did they want to?)
>
> Thanks for your answer.
>
> Best wishes.
>
> Steffan Ellis
The Belgic tribes never went anywhere near Wales. Linguistic remnants
indicate two separate Celtic incursions before the first century BCE. -the
Troll