Open letter to readers of these two NGs
raylopez99
I'll try and keep this short.
I'm curious in the educational credentials of the posters in these two
newsgroups.
So reply to this post and state your credentials, as vague as you like,
for example, my credentials are: three university degrees (including
doctorate), science major background. East coast USA university ranked
in top 20 by the US News and World Report annual college survey.
Why am I curious? Because when I first started posting here last year,
I was curious enough about Global Warming to check out these
newsgroups, but I did not want to do the hard work of actually reading
a book on the subject. So by acting like an idiot in the sense of
using provocative flame bait (albeit asking good questions at times) I
was able to generate some answers/opinions about the topics I was
interested in. Standard flamebait tactics, that I learned from the
early 1990s when the Internet evolved (note to reader: you will not
get many responses if you don't bait your reader--that's a fact I
learned over the years from experience).
But recently I was shocked, in response to sober book review I am
conducting right now called "Taken by Storm" (quite good, even though
it has not yet conclusively rebutted the IPCC official position IMO),
that some of the more frequent posters in these NGs don't even have a
science degree. I want to make clear: I have nothing against liberal
arts majors. In fact, I firmly believe that there is as much work in
getting a liberal arts degree as there is a science degree (I saw a
report being prepared once on english literature from such a major and
I was stunned at the level of detail and work involved). But it would
be interesting to see the science background (or lack thereof) of the
posters in these NGs.
Of course one could lie about their background, and I realise this, so
partly this post is to simply complain, by inference, about the lack of
science from the posters in these NGs and the worthlessness of even
posting here. But for pure education, and an occasional tidbit of
knowledge, these unmoderated NGs are useful.
Ray Lopez
dbo...@mindspring.com
tendency, even in this NG to feel that someone without a science degree
is incapable of understanding the issues. On the other hand, we
sometimes see people saying that "so and so doesnt even have a science
degree".
I'd rather see a discussion of conflicts of interest than educational
credentials.
Global_Warming @Peacemail.com
word science in it. It didn't perpare me as a citizen to understand the
real and present danger of Global Warming.
I feel the best value of the educational program I graduated from was
the forcing me to get used to going to a bookstore every few months and
spending an hundred to $200+ on books. Getting off one's wallet to
learn something is not a natural act and needs to be ingrained by
repetitive training.
If one is constrained on a budget they may prefer to do what I do:
first look over Google to see what kind of book reviews are online. If
a book looks validly interesting check out Amazon.com. Amazon has
reviews from professional reviewers as guidance to buyers for
institutions (like libraries), plus it has reviews written by regular
people. I have several reviews posted online on Amazon.com of books I
recommend and books I warn about flaws.
Amazon also has "look inside" -- a digitized service that allows
searching for keywords inside book text the way google searches
webpages. You may also sometimes find that there are sample excerpts,
often a whole chapter you can read.
Used books may not be such a bargain on Amazon, because you add $3.49
shipping for each one. You might find the same book near home for less
in a used bookstore. Some Amazon.com used books sell for as low as ONE
CENT (which makes them $3.50) with shipping. i have bought books from
Amazon, both new and used, and have never had the slighest problem with
the service.
On Global Warming I suggest looking a the reviews on these books. Just
click the link to get there.
Global Warming Books
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0674016378/qid=1128924305/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-1844528-0348955?v=glance&s=books
The Discovery of Global Warming : , (New Histories of Science,
Technology, and Medicine) (Paperback)
by Spencer R. Weart
Paperback: 240 pages
Publisher: Harvard University Press (September 30, 2004)
ISBN: 0674016378
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0521528747/qid=1128924305/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-1844528-0348955?v=glance&s=books
Global Warming : The Complete Briefing (Paperback)
by John Houghton
Paperback: 382 pages
Publisher: Cambridge University Press; 3 edition (August 5, 2004)
ISBN: 0521528747
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1403966982/qid=1128924305/sr=1-7/ref=sr_1_7/102-1844528-0348955?v=glance&s=books
Global Warming : Personal Solutions for a Healthy Planet (Hardcover)
by Chris Spence
Hardcover: 208 pages
Publisher: Palgrave Macmillan (July 15, 2005)
ISBN: 1403966982
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0582381673/qid=1128924305/sr=1-8/ref=sr_1_8/102-1844528-0348955?v=glance&s=books
Global Warming: The Hard Science (Paperback)
by Danny Harvey
Paperback: 408 pages
Publisher: Prentice Hall; 1 edition (April 6, 1999)
ISBN: 0582381673
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0415931029/qid=/sr=/ref=cm_lm_asin/102-1844528-0348955?v=glance
The Carbon War: Global Warming and the End of the Oil Era (Paperback)
by Jeremy K. Leggett
Paperback: 341 pages
Publisher: Routledge; 1st Routledge ed edition (April 1, 2001)
ISBN: 0415931029
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0300102321/qid=/sr=/ref=cm_lm_asin/102-1844528-0348955?v=glance
Red Sky at Morning: America and the Crisis of the Global Environment
(Hardcover)
by James Gustave Speth
Hardcover: 320 pages
Publisher: Yale University Press (February 9, 2004)
ISBN: 0300102321
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/046502761X/qid=/sr=/ref=cm_lm_asin/102-1844528-0348955?v=glance
Boiling Point: How Politicians, Big Oil and Coal, Journalists and
Activists Are Fueling the Climate Crisis--And What We Can Do to Avert
Disaster (Hardcover)
by Ross Gelbspan
Hardcover: 254 pages
Publisher: Basic Books (August, 2004)
ISBN: 046502761X
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0764122193/qid=/sr=/ref=cm_lm_asin/102-1844528-0348955?v=glance
The Coming Storm: The True Causes of Freak Weather-And Why It's
Getting Worse (Paperback)
by Mark Maslin
Paperback: 144 pages
Publisher: Barrons Educational Series (August 10, 2002)
ISBN: 0764122193
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0802713467/qid=/sr=/ref=cm_lm_asin/102-1844528-0348955?v=glance
Greenhouse: The 200-Year Story of Global Warming (Hardcover)
by Gale E. Christianson
Hardcover: 305 pages
Publisher: Walker & Company
ISBN: 0802713467
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1583224777/qid=/sr=/ref=cm_lm_asin/102-1844528-0348955?v=glance
Dead Heat: Global Justice and Global Warming (Paperback)
by Tom Athanasiou, Paul Baer
Paperback: 176 pages
Publisher: Open Media; 1st edition (June 15, 2002)
ISBN: 1583224777
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1851097422/qid=/sr=/ref=cm_lm_asin/102-1844528-0348955?v=glance
Global Warming : A Reference Handbook (Contemporary World Issues)
(Hardcover)
by Gary Bryner, Mildred Vasan (Editor)
Hardcover: 250 pages
Publisher: ABC-CLIO (December 12, 2005)
ISBN: 1851097422
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0807085030/qid=/sr=/ref=cm_lm_asin/102-1844528-0348955?v=glance
The Greenhouse Trap (A World Resources Institute Guide to the
Environment) (Paperback)
by Francesca Lyman
Paperback: 212 pages
Publisher: Beacon Press (April 1, 1990)
ISBN: 0807085030
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1567512844/qid=/sr=/ref=cm_lm_asin/102-1844528-0348955?v=glance
Arctic Melting : How Global Warming is Destroying One of the World's
Largest Wilderness Areas (Paperback)
by Chad Kister
Paperback: 224 pages
Publisher: Common Courage Press (November 15, 2004)
ISBN: 1567512844
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0738200255/ref=pd_sbs_b_6/102-1844528-0348955?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance
The Heat Is on: The Climate Crisis, the Cover-Up, the Prescription
(Paperback)
by Ross Gelbspan
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0742512967/ref=pd_sim_b_2/102-1844528-0348955?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance
American Heat: Ethical Problems With the United States' Response to
Global Warming (Studies in Social, Political, and Legal Philosophy)
(Paperback)
by Donald A. Brown
Paperback: 320 pages
Publisher: Rowman & Littlefield Publishers (June, 2002)
ISBN: 0742512967
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1559638818/ref=pd_sim_b_6/102-1844528-0348955?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance
Climate Change Policy: A Survey (Paperback)
by Stephen H. Schneider (Editor)
Paperback: 563 pages
Publisher: Island Press (September, 2002)
ISBN: 1559638818
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0312303653/ref=pd_sim_b_2/102-1844528-0348955?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance
High Tide : The Truth About Our Climate Crisis (Paperback)
by Mark Lynas
Paperback: 384 pages
Publisher: Picador (June 1, 2004)
ISBN: 0312303653
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0415946565/ref=pd_sim_b_4/102-1844528-0348955?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance
Feeling the Heat: Dispatches from the Frontlines of Climate Change
(Paperback)
by Sally Deneen et al
Paperback: 176 pages
Publisher: Routledge (March, 2004)
ISBN: 0415946565
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0691102961/ref=pd_sbs_b_3/102-1844528-0348955?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance
The Two-Mile Time Machine : Ice Cores, Abrupt Climate Change, and Our
Future (Paperback)
by Richard B. Alley
Paperback: 240 pages
Publisher: Princeton University Press; Reprint edition (July 1, 2002)
ISBN: 0691102961
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385416040/ref=pd_sbs_b_5/102-1844528-0348955?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance
The End of Nature : Tenth Anniversary Edition (Paperback)
by Bill Mckibben
Paperback: 256 pages
Publisher: Anchor; 10th Anniv edition (August 5, 1997)
ISBN: 0385416040
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0072838450/ref=pd_sim_b_2/102-1844528-0348955?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance
Environmental Ethics: Divergence and Convergence (Paperback)
by Susan J Armstrong, Richard G Botzler, Susan Armstrong, Richard
Botzler
Paperback: 624 pages
Publisher: McGraw-Hill Humanities/Social Sciences/Languages; 3 edition
(August 28, 2003)
ISBN: 0072838450
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0393325393/ref=pd_sim_b_6/102-1844528-0348955?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance
State of the World 2004 (Paperback)
Paperback: 272 pages
Publisher: W. W. Norton & Company (January, 2004)
ISBN: 0393325393
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0521807689/ref=pd_sim_b_6/102-1844528-0348955?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance
Climate Change 2001: Impacts, Adaptation, and Vulnerability :
Contribution of Working Group II to the Third Assessment Report of the
Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (Hardcover)
Hardcover: 1042 pages
Publisher: Cambridge University Press (July 12, 2001)
ISBN: 0521807689
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0521807697/ref=pd_sim_b_1/102-1844528-0348955?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance
Climate Change 2001: Mitigation : Contribution of Working Group III to
the Third Assessment Report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate
Change (Hardcover)
Hardcover: 702 pages
Publisher: Cambridge University Press (July 12, 2001)
ISBN: 0521807697
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0521807700/ref=pd_sim_b_2/102-1844528-0348955?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance
Climate Change 2001: Synthesis Report : Third Assessment Report of the
Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (Hardcover)
Hardcover: 408 pages
Publisher: Cambridge University Press (March 4, 2002)
ISBN: 0521807700
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1597260312/ref=pd_sim_b_2/102-1844528-0348955?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance
One With Nineveh : Politics, Consumption, and the Human Future
(Paperback)
by Paul R. Ehrlich, Anne H. Ehrlich
Paperback: 472 pages
Publisher: Island Press (August 22, 2005)
ISBN: 1597260312
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393325237/102-1844528-0348955?%5Fencoding=UTF8&%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance
Plan B: Rescuing a Planet under Stress and a Civilization in Trouble
(Paperback)
by Lester R. Brown
Paperback: 320 pages
Publisher: W. W. Norton & Company; 1st edition (September, 2003)
ISBN: 0393325237
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0465022820/ref=pd_sim_b_5/102-1844528-0348955?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance
The Long Summer: How Climate Changed Civilization (Paperback)
by Brian Fagan
Paperback: 284 pages
Publisher: Basic Books (December, 2004)
ISBN: 0465022820
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1840645938/qid=1128924404/sr=1-18/ref=sr_1_18/102-1844528-0348955?v=glance&s=books
Global Warming and the American Economy: A Regional Assessment of
Climate Change Impacts (New Horizons in Environmental Economics)
(Hardcover)
by Robert Mendelsohn (Editor)
Hardcover: 209 pages
Publisher: Edward Elgar Publishing (December 30, 2001)
ISBN: 1840645938
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/155963068X/qid=1128927372/sr=1-24/ref=sr_1_24/102-1844528-0348955?v=glance&s=books
The Rising Tide: Global Warming and World Sea Levels (Hardcover)
by Lynne T. Edgerton
Hardcover: 157 pages
Publisher: Island Press (April, 1991)
ISBN: 155963068X
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0521823862/qid=1128927372/sr=1-26/ref=sr_1_26/102-1844528-0348955?v=glance&s=books
Economic Theory and Global Warming (Hardcover)
by Hirofumi Uzawa
Hardcover: 292 pages
Publisher: Cambridge University Press (August 14, 2003)
ISBN: 0521823862
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1560229136/qid=1128927372/sr=1-28/ref=sr_1_28/102-1844528-0348955?v=glance&s=books
Crops And Environmental Change: An Introduction To Effects Of Global
Warming, Increasing Atmospheric CO2 And O3 Concentrations, And Soil
Salinization On Crop Physiology And Yield (Paperback)
by Seth G., Ph.D. Pritchard, Jeffrey S., Ph.D. Amthor
Paperback: 421 pages
Publisher: Haworth Press (February 2, 2005)
ISBN: 1560229136
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0292755554/qid=1128927437/sr=1-36/ref=sr_1_36/102-1844528-0348955?v=glance&s=books
The Impact of Global Warming on Texas (Harc Global Change Studies)
(Hardcover)
by Gerald R. North (Editor), Jurgen Schmandt (Editor), Judith Clarkson
(Editor)
Hardcover: 254 pages
Publisher: University of Texas Press; 1st ed edition (1995)
ISBN: 0292755554
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0789484196/qid=1128927437/sr=1-40/ref=sr_1_40/102-1844528-0348955?v=glance&s=books
Global Warming (Essential Science Series) (Paperback)
by Fred Pearce, Fred Pearce, John Gribbin
Paperback: 72 pages
Publisher: DK ADULT; 1st edition (April 1, 2002)
ISBN: 0789484196
raylopez99
getting close to the 'real world' Ray Lopez, which is nothing like the
on-line version for the most part.
My conflicts of interest: living as a technical consultant on the West
Coast (CA), I have worked and interacted with nearly all the major
Fortune 500 companies here, including Microsoft (where I am a
shareholder). In the energy arena, I have no clear conflicts of
interest, though if ExxonMobil drops in price (if oil drops to $40 a
barrel, which I think it will) I will invest heavily in that fine
company, since I see fossil fuels being used for the next 25 to 50
years (sadly).
But keep in mind: conflict of interest does not mean you are 100%
biased. It's been pointed out that if you have no conflict of
interest likely you will not be interested in a topic (pace this topic
of GW for me, since I don't have a conflict of interest), and you will
not invest the time it takes to really learn a topic (pace students who
don't work but are learning).
RL
raylopez99
first page of these books? Which ones?
Global_Warming @Peacemail.com
raylopez99 wrote:
> Have you read any of these books, other than Amazon.com reviews and the
> first page of these books? Which ones?
In YOUR CASE I suggest you start with:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0415931029/qid=/sr=/ref=cm_lm_asin/102-1844528-0348955?v=glance
The Carbon War: Global Warming and the End of the Oil Era (Paperback)
by Jeremy K. Leggett
Paperback: 341 pages
Publisher: Routledge; 1st Routledge ed edition (April 1, 2001)
ISBN: 0415931029
It is not so much about Global Warming as about the corrupt tactics of
the "Anti"s, the Carbon Lobby and the Seven Sisters Big Oil Companies.
It is an eyewitness account, not a forenics reconstruction of their
dirty business methods.
Jeremy Leggett worked for Greenpeace as a hired scientist to speak in
their behald in forums where a professional could explain it best. He
explains his own history as an oil geologist working foor petroleum
companies, then teaching in a famous university, before changing his
life to a lower-paid more morally satisfying choice.
Unfortunately, the book ending is misleading -- Legett claims he is
going to found a solar PV works to help end the dependency on oil
monopolists but he has not done so. The documentary bulk of the book is
verified by personal searching through archives involving thousands of
hours myself. Computer scans of collections of up to 40,000,000 pages
of court documents were searched -- often repeat searches as trying
many different key words turned up hits missed by many other synonyms
in the keyword searches.
I can personally confirm that Legett's eyewitness report is confirmed
by abundant independent evidence available to the public through the
open internet.
raylopez99 wrote:
> --Authors blast a very controversial but apparently universal practice
> of dating air from ice core samples that essentially 'smoothes
> over' the data and shifts the year by a mapping technique that
> assumes any high readings of CO2 trapped in air from 100s of years ago
> simply cannot happen, and these high readings are thrown out.
> Essentially, 'throwing out' the too high data points for trapped
> CO2, under the theory they simply cannot be true. Obviously very
> disturbing if, as the authors claim, this practice is universal in ice
> core sampling of CO2 in trapped air.
http://www.exxonsecrets.org/em.php?mapid=175 Singer McKitrick
http://www.exxonsecrets.org/em.php?mapid=383 Ross McKitrick and others
http://www.exxonsecrets.org/em.php?mapid=388 Ross McKitrick overlap
Singer
Map 175 looks like there is no connectedness between McKitrick and arch
science criminal S. Fred Singer.
Map 383 looks at some of the Key People involved in the two
organizations that McKitrick shows on his map. Suddenly we find him
connected to a large web of liars, whom are themselves connected
together daisy chains of organized crime webs.
Map 388 looks deeper into that circle with McKitrick and Singer.
Singer's partner in SEPPtic Tank is bruce Ames involved in Marshall
inst. Singer's othe partner in SEPPtic Tank is Fred Seitz, also
important in Marshall Inst.
Balliunas and Soon are connected to Marshall Inst., where they
participated in felony fraud with OISM over a countefeit NAS petition
that fooled a lot of people. Legates also turns up on this map of
people connected to McKitrick and connected to Singer.
TASSC was a criminal fraud organization from inception. Court papers
demonstrated it was conceived by APCO associates, a PR firm, sold to
Philip Morris Tobacco Company as a means to commit fraud, and then was
funded and operated for purposes of fraud for several years. There are
five Key People associated with the two branches of TASSC: Singer,
Malloy, Michaels, Seitz and Cohen. This fraud was exposed in court in
1998 in federal court. The judge ordered the documents posted online.
Honest scientists would shun those participating in frauds. Honest
businessmen would too.
http://www.exxonsecrets.org/em.php?mapid=391 TASSC
http://www.exxonsecrets.org/em.php?mapid=392 TASSC plus
Map 391 is the simple view ot TASSC. Map 392 traces the organizations
hiring known felony fraud science hoaxers. Map 392 shows 26
organizations or think tanks which hire known science fraud operatives.
We see McKitrick keeps company with known science frauds and scam
artists. It is safe to assume he will use sophisticated techniques to
lie to people who are trusting him to tell the truth.
Fraser Institute is funded by lots of small grants from the Bradley
(ultra-right-wing) Foundation, but fewer large grants from Scaife.
Scaife is inherited Mellon banking and Gulf Oil money. Gulf Oil has
been mergered out of business but the stocks from the new owner must be
in his portfolio.
In 1984 Gulf Oil Company was absorbed by Chevron (Standard Oil of
California), which means that Scaifie's stock were traded in on a
Standard Oil Company stocks. Exxon, Mobil and others are all in the
Standard Oil ownership family. Scaife became an "in-law" through
corporate marriage with the Rockefeller Heirs behind ExxonMobil.
http://www.oiltrash.com/mergers/mergerlist.cfm
The Marshall Institute is also funded by oil heir Scaife:
http://www.mediatransparency.org/recipientgrants.php?recipientID=137
So all of McKitrick's money comes from oil stocks maintaining maximum
value by keeping a deception going to support a monopoly on fuels and
power.
Considering that McKitrick works for science corrupters, his science is
far more suspect. And it his job to insert doubts about corruption in
his opponents he is out to defeat.
> --a study from 1999 is cited that shows trapped air in ice undergoes
> chemical changes that will give a lower CO2 level now than actually was
> trapped, in particular if the ice is under pressure. Reference:
> Indermuhle et al. "Holocene Carbon-cycle Dynamics on CO2 trapped in
> Ice at Taylor Dome, Antarctica", Nature 398 (1999)
> -- ice bubbles under pressure and in the presence of liquid water will
> deplete the CO2, so samples from hundreds of years ago that show lower
> CO2, which is the baseline used by the IPCC report, are not necessarily
> reliable. Thus today's "high" 380 ppm CO2 readings are not
> necessarily high from a historic point of view-and not just when
> dinosaurs roamed the earth, but in the near historical era
You cannot sweep hurricanes under the rug with insinuations:
Spreaders of criminal felony fraud are plaguing the body politic.
GLOBAL WARMING causes MORE STORMS.
GLOBAL WARMING causes MORE Hurricanes below 115 mph.
GLOBAL WARMING causes MORE Hurricanes above 115 mph.
GLOBAL WARMING causes MORE Expensive Storms causing more grief.
GLOBAL WARMING causes HOTTER Heat Waves.
GLOBAL WARMING causes MORE droughts.
GLOBAL WARMING causes MORE floods.
Global Warming Smoking Gun: Hurricanes ARE INCREASING in Frequency and
Intensities. http://tinyurl.com/acsnd
Global_Warming @Peacemail.com
dbo...@mindspring.com
was an oilfield engineer, basically a glorified roughneck as I was a
Drill Stem Tester. This gives me a good working knowledge of how
things work in the oilfielda nd how many wells actually produce. I
have had no contact with that industry since then. I did a graduate
thesis on "Free Electron Charging of Aerosol Particles for Flue Gas
Cleanup" but that was also very long ago. No other conflicts in years.
Roger Coppock
- Two undergraduate degrees: Applied Science and Technology and
Mathematics
- M.S. Computer Science. (Never went for a PhD.)
- USCG Masters Papers (I was Captain Coppock.)
- Advanced Class Amateur Radio License.
- Thirty years experience as a computer engineering scientist.
- About two dozen publications.
- One copyright for "Coppock's GrammarCracker," an algorithm which
parses natural language. (The algorithm was the standard for grammar
checking and language translation 15 years ago.)
- Former Scout Master.
- Maried 26 years, two children.
- Survived both industrial poisoning and cancer.
- Author, "A cure for Humanity," and other works.
Roger Coppock
- Two undergraduate degrees: Applied Science and Technology, and
Global_Warming @Peacemail.com
I spent 5 contiguous weeks offshore on Zapata rig #3 (now cut up into
scrap). Zapata was at that time held in blind trust on behalf of owner
then President George Herbert Walker Bush (Poppy). The fact that poor
maintenance over an extended period of time nearly caused the death of
us all on that rig during hurricane side-effects has never influenced
my thinking about the Bush's (Yeah, right.)
McKitrick participated in a fraud event with known corporate organized
crime science hoaxers.
http://tinyurl.com/97j74
Excerpt (scroll way down on webpage to Hayden entry):
===========================
Howard Hayden (along with FIVE other CFACT accomplices) participated in
a fake-science event, a 'news conference', organized by the APCO public
relation firm (the same group that created TASSC for the tobacco
consortium as a felony fraud conspiracy organization). News Conference
Wednesday, November 13, 2002 at 9:00 AM
National Press Club Dining Room
150 Wellington Street, Ottawa
please contact:
Evan Zelikovitz, Vice President
APCO Worldwide (Canada)
or Tom Harris, Associate
APCO Worldwide (Canada)
Climate Specialists speaking at the news conference:
1. Tim Patterson - Carleton University professor of earth sciences
(Paleoclimatology specialization).
2. Fred Singer, President of The Science & Environmental Policy
Project and professor at George Mason University and Professor Emeritus
at the University of Virginia.
3. Tim Ball - professor of Climatology, University of Winnipeg and
the first climatology Ph.D. in Canada.
4. Madhav L. Khandekar, Environmental consultant. 25 years Research
Scientist from Environment Canada.
5. Pat Michaels - Michaels is a research professor of environmental
sciences at the University of Virginia, with the George C. Marshall
Institute and Senior Fellow in Environmental Studies at the Cato
Institute, both in Washington D.C.
6. Professor Fred Michel of Carleton University Department of Earth
Sciences
Energy Engineering Specialists:
1. J. Terry Rogers, Professor of Mechanical Engineering at Carleton
University. He is currently the Chairman of the Research and
Development Advisory Panel to AECL Board of Directors.
2. Howard C. Hayden, Emeritus Professor of Physics, University of
Connecticut.
Not attending news conference but available for phone & email
interviews:
* Roger Pocklington, Competitve Enterprise Institute stooge
* Sallie Baliunas
* Willie Soon
* John Christy Competitive Enterprise Institute, Cato Institute,
Independent Institute stooge
* Chris Essex, McKitrick sidekick
* Roger Pielke
* William M. Gray
* Fred Seitz
* George Taylor, OISM felony fraud
* Sherwood Idso
* David Wojick, P.E.
* Art Robinson of OISM
* Herb I. H. Saravanamuttoo
* Robert Balling
* Ross McKitrick
* Philip Stott
A more extensive list of experts available to be interviewed will be
presented at the news conference on Nov 13.
===========================
Clickable links on webpage take you to source documentation of facts.
You will notice McKitrick, and his buddy Essex, Pielke and Gray.
http://www.exxonsecrets.org/em.php?mapid=388 Ross McKitrick overlap
Singer
http://www.exxonsecrets.org/em.php?mapid=389 Balliunas O'Keefe Soon
http://www.exxonsecrets.org/em.php?mapid=390 Balliunas O'Keefe Soon+
dbo...@mindspring.com
MS Physics
5 patents in x-ray optics
Founder and owner of Parallax Research, Inc. a company that makes x-ray
stuff.
A few pubs, father of 3, avid caver and sailor, married 25 yrs
Aye, Cap'n Coppock, when we be seein ya in these waters?
Coby Beck
news:1129057367....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
With the exception of being on the board at Exxon or being the Captain of
the Sea Sheperd, I don't think there is any serious reason to look for
"conflict of interest". Owning an SUV or donating to Greenpeace do not
count as any cause for suspicion either way. Bias is a different thing, but
in rational and scientific discussions it either does not matter or is
quickly exposed.
As to Ray's original post:
Coby Beck is a former career tree-planter. The rest is not important.
http://www.vec.com.au/~coby/ontheblock/cobyoversquamish.jpg
(that was 15 years ago)
--
Coby Beck
(remove #\Space "coby 101 @ bigpond . com")
Roger Coppock
I haven't been sailing in 15 years.
raylopez99
position:
But many experts and scientific researchers now dispute these theories,
citing lack of evidence to support them.
* The American Medical Association has gone on record with its
finding that "there is no evidence of overall increase in cancer
related to environmental pollutants or contaminants."
* Former Surgeon General C. Everett Koop points out that, "People
who are so worried about pesticides fail to realize that cancer rates
have dropped over the last 40 years" -- with stomach cancer down more
than 75 percent and rectal cancer more than 65 percent.
As for the impact of synthetic chemicals on wildlife:
* Only four species of birds have become extinct in America since
the arrival of the Pilgrims, and they were well on their way to
oblivion long before the use of agricultural chemicals.
* There are two billion more songbirds in the U.S. now than there
were in the 16th century.
* Populations of most of the 254 bird species monitored over recent
decades are on the rise, according to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife
Service.
As for the Green charge that too much soil is being used up:
* "Conservation tillage" -- a practice of leaving a heavy layer of
crop residue in the upper soil -- cuts soil erosion by 65 percent,
according to Dennis Avery of the Hudson Institute.
* "No Till" farming -- involving keeping a layer of sod on the
field much of the year -- can cut erosion by 98 percent.
* These methods have slowed soil erosion to one ton per acre or
less per year -- far less than the two to four tons per acre per year
rate at which it is replenished.
Source: David Rothbard and Craig Rucker (both of Committee for a
Constructive Tomorrow), "...While Biting the Hand that Feeds Us," Wall
Street Journal, November 18, 1996.
RL
raylopez99
Enough Already
> So reply to this post and state your credentials, as vague as you like,
> for example, my credentials are: three university degrees (including
> doctorate), science major background. East coast USA university ranked
> in top 20 by the US News and World Report annual college survey.
You need to define "science major." Political science majors might call
themselves scientists but they don't know much about ecology. There are
many engineers and such who make a living _altering_ nature but
technically are scientists. Many of them disrespect the branches that
matter most in these discussions, like biology, climatology, etc..
An annoying example is a crusty talk show host in California named Bill
Wattenburg. He has an electrical engineering degree and thinks of
himself as a scientist, but spends half his program (KGO 810) blasting
any sort of environmentalism that doesn't support a people-centered
worldview. See www.pushback.com. Wattenburg talks a big streak about
"balance" between Man and nature., but population growth is preventing
any hope of that. He treats mindless growth as inevitable, as do most
anthropocentrics.
The point is that being a "scientist" is only relevant to an
appreciation of nature if one is educated in certain branches. I doubt
there are many Republican biologists or climatologists because they
just aren't very interested in that aspect of the world. I also don't
think anyone who believes in Creationism is qualified to talk about
nature rationally. That includes President Bush in a big way.
E.A.
http://enough_already.tripod.com/
If any other species behaved like Man we'd call it a plague.
Enough Already
> But keep in mind: conflict of interest does not mean you are 100%
> biased. It's been pointed out that if you have no conflict of
> interest likely you will not be interested in a topic (pace this topic
> of GW for me, since I don't have a conflict of interest), and you will
> not invest the time it takes to really learn a topic (pace students who
> don't work but are learning).
Conflict of interest is often a technical, case-by-case thing. What
really separates environmentalists from the average American consumer
is a greater or more "spiritual" respect for nature. If you appreciate
nature in a certain intrinsic way it's impossible to side with the
growthism that keeps wrecking it. Wilderness has an aesthetic component
that's been suffering for a long time, but there's also a survival
component RE global warming, water shortages and hunger. I don't think
we can afford to make much distinction between the two anymore.
My degree is in electronics but it was never my main interest. You
can't make a decent living being a wilderness bum! I don't think one
has to be educated in anything specific to see what's happening to the
land, water and air. Anyone can copy & paste articles from the Net
showing different points of view, but if you know what the word FINITE
means you can do the math and see the future of this world.
These environmental debates come down to whether one thinks the planet
should be islands of people in a sea of wilderness, or vice versa. I'll
take the former because, for me, the world gets less interesting and
more unstable as it gets more crowded.
James Annan
dbo...@mindspring.com wrote:
> I understand the hesitation of people to respond to this. There is a
> tendency, even in this NG to feel that someone without a science degree
> is incapable of understanding the issues.
More likely, most people have killfiled Ray Lopez. And any practising
scientist who posts under their real name has a pretty open history
anyway...
James
raylopez99
too many people on the planet, and that it's not in equilibrium.
But education might be the key--if you believe the talk that in every
large population, there is a certain percentage of geniuses that can
solve all the world's problems--if they are educated and not allowed to
be lost.
How many "Black Einsteins" have starved to death in Africa?
RL
Global Warming @ARMY.com
In short, you are saying you threaten to kill the world because there
are too many people and it's out of equilibrium, BUT if the small core
of brainiacs solves all the problems you are creating, THEN you will
let the world live (until you change your mind again.)
Is that an accurate summation of what you have been saying right along
and hinted at in this last posting?
We need one more guy, Ray Lopez, able to understand simple facts, not
some black Einstein. And in case you didn't notice, Einstein #1 didn't
solve all the world's problems either.
Lloyd Parker
"raylopez99" <raylo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Hi everybody.
>
>I'll try and keep this short.
>
>I'm curious in the educational credentials of the posters in these two
>newsgroups.
>
>So reply to this post and state your credentials, as vague as you like,
>for example, my credentials are: three university degrees (including
>doctorate),
I notice you don't say doctorate in WHAT.
> science major background. East coast USA university ranked
>in top 20 by the US News and World Report annual college survey.
>
>Why am I curious? Because when I first started posting here last year,
>I was curious enough about Global Warming to check out these
>newsgroups, but I did not want to do the hard work of actually reading
>a book on the subject.
Well, that's pretty telling. Kind of sophomoric, isn't it?
>So by acting like an idiot in the sense of
>using provocative flame bait (albeit asking good questions at times) I
>was able to generate some answers/opinions about the topics I was
>interested in. Standard flamebait tactics, that I learned from the
>early 1990s when the Internet evolved (note to reader: you will not
>get many responses if you don't bait your reader--that's a fact I
>learned over the years from experience).
>
>But recently I was shocked, in response to sober book review I am
>conducting right now called "Taken by Storm" (quite good, even though
>it has not yet conclusively rebutted the IPCC official position IMO),
>that some of the more frequent posters in these NGs don't even have a
>science degree.
Why didn't you tell us what your doctorate was in?
Lloyd Parker
"raylopez99" <raylo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Thanks for the links. I found this gem, which rebuts your eco-nut
>position:
>
>But many experts and scientific researchers now dispute these theories,
>citing lack of evidence to support them.
>
> * The American Medical Association has gone on record with its
>finding that "there is no evidence of overall increase in cancer
>related to environmental pollutants or contaminants."
Found on NCPA site; no mention of it on any AMA site.
>
> * Former Surgeon General C. Everett Koop points out that, "People
>who are so worried about pesticides fail to realize that cancer rates
>have dropped over the last 40 years" -- with stomach cancer down more
>than 75 percent and rectal cancer more than 65 percent.
Yes, due to earlier detection and better treatment, and banning of many
carcinogens. Hardly a testimonial to the idea that things aren't causing
cancer.
>
>As for the impact of synthetic chemicals on wildlife:
>
> * Only four species of birds have become extinct in America since
>the arrival of the Pilgrims, and they were well on their way to
>oblivion long before the use of agricultural chemicals.
Sure, because we addressed the problem in time. Again, it's like arguing that
since Americans haven't died of cholera, cholrea must not be bad.
>
> * There are two billion more songbirds in the U.S. now than there
>were in the 16th century.
Misleading. There was NO US in the 16th century, so if there are 2 billion
songbirds in the US now, the above statement is true.
>
> * Populations of most of the 254 bird species monitored over recent
>decades are on the rise, according to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife
>Service.
Again, thanks to things like banning DDT, the ESA, etc.
>
>As for the Green charge that too much soil is being used up:
>
> * "Conservation tillage" -- a practice of leaving a heavy layer of
>crop residue in the upper soil -- cuts soil erosion by 65 percent,
>according to Dennis Avery of the Hudson Institute.
>
> * "No Till" farming -- involving keeping a layer of sod on the
>field much of the year -- can cut erosion by 98 percent.
>
> * These methods have slowed soil erosion to one ton per acre or
>less per year -- far less than the two to four tons per acre per year
>rate at which it is replenished.
>
>Source: David Rothbard and Craig Rucker (both of Committee for a
>Constructive Tomorrow), "...While Biting the Hand that Feeds Us," Wall
>Street Journal, November 18, 1996.
Yep, a real scientific, unbiased source. Was the Mooney Times unavailable?
>
>RL
>
Phil Hays
>I'll try and keep this short.
>
>I'm curious in the educational credentials of the posters in these two
>newsgroups.
I don't have any. You see, I am a dog. I didn't even get to go to
obedience school like some other dogs have. The great thing about
Usenet is that no one need ever suspect that I am a dog. Unless I
tell them, of course.
--
Caution: Contents may contain sarcasm.
Phil Hays
Coby Beck
news:kbgqk1tt5mumpen8c...@4ax.com...
> "raylopez99" wrote:
>
>>I'll try and keep this short.
>>
>>I'm curious in the educational credentials of the posters in these two
>>newsgroups.
>
> I don't have any. You see, I am a dog. I didn't even get to go to
> obedience school like some other dogs have. The great thing about
> Usenet is that no one need ever suspect that I am a dog. Unless I
> tell them, of course.
Have you been to the vet yet? To get tutored? I'm going tomorrow...!!
<heah-uh, heah-uh, heah-uh, heah-uh>
Carl Powell
I'll be honest, I have no degree.
I am a building engineer for the number 6 hotel chain in the US (as ranked
by Hotel Management magazine) and have been at this position for going on 6
years. I hold a Universal Freon license from Ferris State University, an
electronics certificate from ECPI, and have previously been Armed Security
certified. I have also worked as maintenance in multi-family HUD housing
(Sect. 236 type) and have shipyard experience with an USN contractor
installing combat systems.
I tend to be pro-nature but within reason. There are no perfect
solutions. However, if you have a group of problems you can often work out a
solution where there is no solution to any one problem. I do tend to
disbelieve 'the sky is falling' predictions but will listen to reasonable
suggestions. I am concerned about the Chesapeake Bay and the disappearance
of many things that make the East Coast a unique place to live and of
history.
Carl
"raylopez99" <raylo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1129056674.7...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
raylopez99
I agree with your solution.
I also like the Chesapeake Bay, and am familiar with it.
Take care,
Ray
raylopez99
Your solution is death, mine is life.
You are like the fly in Karl Shapiro's poem: "Your peace is my
disaster"
Let's agree to disagree.
RL
raylopez99
not environmentalists; DDT if not applied en masse actually is safe for
everybody (you can even eat it safely); cancer rates down not just from
treatment but because less polluton, i.e., total per capita air-borne
pollutants down both in total numbers and per capita from 1970, with
the exception of NOx.
Sounds like victory.
RL
"I love the smell of CO2 in the morning... smells like victory" - RL
Global_Warming @Peacemail.com
them true, but NONE OF THEM relate to ANYTHING stated up-thread in
previous messages.
This calculated deceptive wording make it appear maybe somebody made
some claim which needs rebutting by these particular facts. The NCPA
website this phoney-rebuttal comes from lists science advisors whom
have participated in science frauds for pay by the tobacco company
serial murderers. How much can you trust associates of serial murderers
who have engaged in felony fraud deceptions. Can Ray Lopez find NOTt
ONE SPECK of evidence which actually relates to the arguments stated
above in previous messages that he has to go get "greenie-smear"
webpages put out by known criminals as his only resort left?
Lloyd Parker
"raylopez99" <raylo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Llloyd - your facts are wrong, inter alia, cholera fixed by technology,
>not environmentalists;
Ray, get someone to explain the concept of an analogy to you.
>DDT if not applied en masse actually is safe for
>everybody
Well, except for the food chain, where it can concentrate.
>(you can even eat it safely); cancer rates down not just from
>treatment but because less polluton, i.e., total per capita air-borne
>pollutants down both in total numbers and per capita from 1970, with
>the exception of NOx.
Less pollution is due to the environmental movement, without which we wouldn't
have all the laws and regulations that have led to less pollution.
p4o2
Enough Already
> Some good points there Enough Already. Sometimes I do think we have
> too many people on the planet, and that it's not in equilibrium.
Sometimes? To me it's obvious every day, having grown up in California
and seen its saddening transformation from a Golden State into a
crowded mess. My posting tagline is no joke, either. If we applied our
standards of wildlife management to people management, we'd stop all
immigration tomorrow and enforce strict family size laws.
> But education might be the key--if you believe the talk that in every
> large population, there is a certain percentage of geniuses that can
> solve all the world's problems--if they are educated and not allowed to
> be lost.
Folks like you prove that education and evidence has a limited effect
on people. Growth-addiction has blocked rational interpretation of
nature's waning condition.
> How many "Black Einsteins" have starved to death in Africa?
I'm not quite sure what that means but the world is still
overpopulated. Modern standards of living might only allow for 2
billion people, assuming 1,000+ year sustainability is the goal. I am
already bracing myself for my old age when there will probably be 60
million Californians. I hope by that time, quality of life will be more
important than feeding the construction industry and the many other
land parasites.
Enough Already
> I'll be honest, I have no degree.
> I am a building engineer for the number 6 hotel chain in the US (as ranked
> by Hotel Management magazine) and have been at this position for going on 6
> years.
You must know that construction of new motels, etc. is largely a
manifestation of overpopulation. Where would the building industry be
without 2 million+ more Americans needing new homes, roads and stores
each year? So many jobs are growth-based that most people are stuck in
parasitic relationships with nature.
>I tend to be pro-nature but within reason. There are no perfect
>solutions. However, if you have a group of problems you can often work out a
>solution where there is no solution to any one problem. I do tend to
>disbelieve 'the sky is falling' predictions but will listen to reasonable
>suggestions. I am concerned about the Chesapeake Bay and the disappearance
>of many things that make the East Coast a unique place to live and of
>history.
As long as the human population keeps growing you will see an endless
list of those conflicts. We are not in balance with nature and no
amount of management can mask the impacts of mindless growth. If we
used (global) birth control half as much as mediation we might actually
solve the problem.