ok i should know the answer but i will ask anyway
A physico
you have protean of 4 you can turn into a wolf or bat. the only question i have
is where does your clothing and weapons go. is it just like werewolf and you
loose it or what. if you do loose your clothing and stuff is there a way to
keep it on you.
Vis Sierra
According to the third edition, clothes and personalitems will
transform with the vampire (like deicated items for Garou).
I don't particularly like it, as there's no reason for it other
than convenience to the PC and it doesn't fit with the natural
aspects and emphasis of Protean, but that's the state of canon.
Vis
MadjakVvvV
you have protean of 4 you can turn into a wolf or bat. the only question i have
is where does your clothing and weapons go. is it just like werewolf and you
loose it or what. if you do loose your clothing and stuff is there a way to
keep it on you.
>>
Yeah, but not with Viscitudes Zulo form.I nailed another player when he tried
to Zulo out on me.I mentioned casually to the DM "how much damage DO you take
from bursting out of chainmail?"
^v^
Madjak
Kristopher/EOS
>
> aphy...@aol.com (A physico) wrote:
>
> > ok i dont have the book anymore but i was just curious about something. ok if
> > you have protean of 4 you can turn into a wolf or bat. the only question i have
> > is where does your clothing and weapons go. is it just like werewolf and you
> > loose it or what. if you do loose your clothing and stuff is there a way to
> > keep it on you.
>
> transform with the vampire (like deicated items for Garou).
> I don't particularly like it, as there's no reason for it other
> than convenience to the PC and it doesn't fit with the natural
> aspects and emphasis of Protean, but that's the state of canon.
>
> Vis
It's magic...what's the problem???
Kristopher
Raoul Duke
Yeah, this is the same Discipline that lets you turn into a piece of dirt,
man. If I can swallow that, I can buy some dude's boots going into sub-space.
You could view it as the vampire's power affecting everything within his
personal aura/that's part of his self-image/surrounded by the Absolute Terror
Field/whatever.
Now, if you're worried about Gangrel morphing out of Batform packing bazookas
or something, that's pretty explicitly covered. "Clothing and small personal
posessions," it says. Even says at the start of the Protean section that you
can't take along large objects. I'd be tempted to disallow *any* weapon-- if
you got Batform, you already know Feral Claws. What else do you need?
Joe
------
*"It's sort of like the X-Files crossed with Trainspotting, with a twist
of Dr. Who, on MTV playing at Philip K. Dick's house," says PJW. Come see
for yourself at http://www.cinenet.net:80/users/jaybab/barbelith.html
*Slightly unwholesome fun and games at http://members.xoom.com/McGuffins
David Johnston
>
> aphy...@aol.com (A physico) wrote:
>
> > ok i dont have the book anymore but i was just curious about something. ok if
> > you have protean of 4 you can turn into a wolf or bat. the only question i have
> > is where does your clothing and weapons go. is it just like werewolf and you
> > loose it or what. if you do loose your clothing and stuff is there a way to
> > keep it on you.
>
> According to the third edition, clothes and personalitems will
> transform with the vampire (like deicated items for Garou).
> I don't particularly like it, as there's no reason for it other
> than convenience to the PC and it doesn't fit with the natural
> aspects and emphasis of Protean, but that's the state of canon.
However, since Dracula doesn't have to show up naked after turning into
a bat, there is good reason.
>
> Vis
Vis Sierra
> : > According to the third edition, clothes and personalitems will
> : > transform with the vampire (like deicated items for Garou).
> : > I don't particularly like it, as there's no reason for it other
> : > than convenience to the PC and it doesn't fit with the natural
> : > aspects and emphasis of Protean, but that's the state of canon.
David Johnston <rgo...@telusplanet.net> wrote:
> However, since Dracula doesn't have to show up naked after turning into
> a bat, there is good reason.
Which is?
Kristopher/EOS wrote:
> : It's magic...what's the problem???
It's the wrong sort of magic. In example, when Raoul Duke wrote:
> Yeah, this is the same Discipline that lets you turn into a piece of dirt,
> man. If I can swallow that, I can buy some dude's boots going into sub-space.
Sorry, Protean isn't the Discipline of control over sub-space.
You're thinking of Trekinosis off of B.J. Zanzabar's page.
That's nowhere near the sort of thing Protean was meant to do.
> You could view it as the vampire's power affecting everything within his
> personal aura/that's part of his self-image/surrounded by the Absolute Terror
> Field/whatever.
You're missing my point. It's not about game-balance, it's not
that it is magic, it's about what the magic is responsible for.
Protean Four is the power for converting the natural form of the
Gangrel to an equally natural animal form. It affects the body.
There's no reason for it to go any further given in Vampire.
I could buy that Gangrel dedicate certain items to themselves,
given that non-Thaumaturgy Disciplines can now have rituals
associated with them. It could draw some link between Gangrel
and Garou rituals/ shapeshifting in way of explanation.
Protean as-written is not a Discipline of sub-space or clothing
alteration or Garou spirit-body shapeshifting. It could be, and
then it would make sense for clothing to go somewhere, but it's
not. Right now it's just spending blood and changing the shape
of your literal, organic body. Maybe we'll get a more in-depth
explanation when the revised Gangrel Clanbook comes out, but I'm
not going to hold my breath.
> Now, if you're worried about Gangrel morphing out of Batform packing bazookas
> or something, that's pretty explicitly covered. "Clothing and small personal
> posessions," it says. Even says at the start of the Protean section that you
> can't take along large objects. I'd be tempted to disallow *any* weapon-- if
> you got Batform, you already know Feral Claws. What else do you need?
I don't give a fig about a bazooka wielding bat. I care about
the rationale behind the Disciplines, given they're a specific
and strongly thematic form of magic.
Clothing being shed when the vampire shifts forms or enters the
earth fits the themes of the Gangrel being incompatible with
civilization's constraints and the blood acting on the vampire's
body. Teleporting your pocket change into hyperspace because
it's in your personal aura does not.
> Joe
Vis
Doctor X
>
> ok i dont have the book anymore but i was just curious about something. ok if
> you have protean of 4 you can turn into a wolf or bat. the only question i have
> is where does your clothing and weapons go. is it just like werewolf and you
> loose it or what. if you do loose your clothing and stuff is there a way to
> keep it on you.
On a similar subject, does Earth Meld allow one to move around while
underground? What happens if the spot you've picked turns out to be a
construction site and they dig you up or pour a foundation over your
sleeping spot?
Sorry, but I think about these things.
Z?,
Dr.X
----
"Caffeine, Sugar AND Cocaine! Chocolate truly IS God's greatest
creation!" -Cheese, "Milk & Cheese"
man...@geocities.com
#v...@jps.net (Vis Sierra) wrote:
> > However, since Dracula doesn't have to show up naked after turning into
> > a bat, there is good reason.
>
> Which is?
Mood. Vampires who look silly aren't frightening and ruin the mood of a horror
game.
If Dracula had oozed through the window in form of Mist then appeared in the
buff it wouldn't have had quite the same impact now would it?
> > You could view it as the vampire's power affecting everything within his
> > personal aura/that's part of his self-image/surrounded by the Absolute
Terror
> > Field/whatever.
>
> You're missing my point. It's not about game-balance, it's not
> that it is magic, it's about what the magic is responsible for.
> Protean Four is the power for converting the natural form of the
> Gangrel to an equally natural animal form. It affects the body.
> There's no reason for it to go any further given in Vampire.
>
> I could buy that Gangrel dedicate certain items to themselves,
> given that non-Thaumaturgy Disciplines can now have rituals
> associated with them. It could draw some link between Gangrel
> and Garou rituals/ shapeshifting in way of explanation.
>
> Protean as-written is not a Discipline of sub-space or clothing
> alteration or Garou spirit-body shapeshifting.
Check out the description of level 3 in VRev. An earth melded vampire is
partially in the Astral world (and under Auspex 5 it tells us this Astral
world is the Umbra). So there does seem to be some spirit component to
Protean.
VRev says nothing about other shifting powers, so presumably Serpentis 4
doesn't take anything with you, very cool image of the snake slithering out of
the pile of clothes. The Vicissitude "monster" forms like Zulo and Chiroptean
Marauder will also ruin you nightware, but again turing into a large nightmare
creature while bursting out of you clothes it very appropriate.
Turning into a bat and probly being buried under you coat however (which is
what will happen if you don't take it off first and it doesn't change with
you) is more than a little silly, and really the undead should have a bit
more dignity than that.
Mant
--
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http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/7960/
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Raoul Duke
: David Johnston <rgo...@telusplanet.net> wrote:
: > However, since Dracula doesn't have to show up naked after turning into
: > a bat, there is good reason.
: Which is?
Which is that he would look damn goofy, and break the mood.
I think you're being detrimentally picky about Protean-- the entire game is
meant to convey a mood. Maybe you think it's atmospheric for a vampire to
always be mugging people for clothes after changing form (and I can agree that
certain Gangrel would be happiest without clothes in any form), but most
people agree that he breaks the metagame.
And this *is* a game-- certain elements (like logic, sometimes) have to be
suspended or ignored for the game to be successfully played (depending on
the group in question and their definition of success, of course).
: You're missing my point. It's not about game-balance, it's not
: that it is magic, it's about what the magic is responsible for.
Mmm... this would be an awfully mechanistic "magic", wouldn't it? To be
trite, "If it were perfectly predictable it would be *science*, not magic."
Magic almost inherently involves unknown factors. I'm surprised you're
complaining about jeans transforming with a vamp (which probably has more
magical basis than the other way round-- Protean changes *you*. I dunno
about you, but I consider what I'm currently wearing as part of me, at least
on a subconscious level) but not how Protean 1 allows you to see perfectly in
the dark regardless of ambient light...
I *understand* your point. I just don't feel it relevant to my games. That
doesn't make your point wrong or anything, though.
Joe, in your position about something else on the Vamp ML. ^_^
Robin Pfeifer
Doctor X schrieb in Nachricht <3646DA...@aa.net>...
>On a similar subject, does Earth Meld allow one to move around while
>underground?
Not as such - this is a 6th level protean power as given in the PG 2nd
edition.
Robin
Robin Pfeifer
crumpled on the ground and slowly being filled by some mist, which begins to
reform to a body...
And if you take with you whatever you have on your person when you go misty,
why has no-one thought of making Fort Knox obsolete? It's a gas...
Robin
Vis Sierra
> #v...@jps.net (Vis Sierra) wrote:
> > > However, since Dracula doesn't have to show up naked after turning into
> > > a bat, there is good reason.
> >
> > Which is?
>
> Mood. Vampires who look silly aren't frightening and ruin the mood of a horror
> game.
>
> If Dracula had oozed through the window in form of Mist then appeared in the
> buff it wouldn't have had quite the same impact now would it?
Yes, it would.
In Terminator, I was able to see the lead character as
menacing even though he was (whisper) nekkid (giggle).
A draft, mist creeping through the parted window, an incubus in
the flesh, and the ecstasy of your blood being drained. I find
that less silly than a man with slicked-back hair and formal
wear (including a red and black satin bat cape) materializing in
a puff of smoke.
> > > You could view it as the vampire's power affecting everything within his
> > > personal aura/that's part of his self-image/surrounded by the Absolute
> Terror
> > > Field/whatever.
> > Protean as-written is not a Discipline of sub-space or clothing
> > alteration or Garou spirit-body shapeshifting.
>
> Check out the description of level 3 in VRev. An earth melded vampire is
> partially in the Astral world (and under Auspex 5 it tells us this Astral
> world is the Umbra). So there does seem to be some spirit component to
> Protean.
Mea culpa. I was too focused on the 4th level power.
Although I do like the idea of Protean crossing over with Garou
cosmology, I'm still not satisfied with the V3 whys and hows.
Hm. Maybe I will hold my breath for a revised Gangrel Clanbook.
Taking your clothes with you the way the Garou do seems the only
viable (reasonable/consistant/non-silly) way to handle it if you
are going to have them disappear. I'd like a sense that this is
an ability learned from the Garou or at least mimicking them. I
don't see why Protean would shuttle your personal effects off to
Astral Space otherwise (no clan with Protean also has Auspex, the
only Discipline with a reason to tangle with Astral Space...).
> VRev says nothing about other shifting powers, so presumably Serpentis 4
> doesn't take anything with you, very cool image of the snake slithering out of
> the pile of clothes. The Vicissitude "monster" forms like Zulo and Chiroptean
> Marauder will also ruin you nightware, but again turing into a large nightmare
> creature while bursting out of you clothes it very appropriate.
>
> Turning into a bat and probly being buried under you coat however (which is
> what will happen if you don't take it off first and it doesn't change with
> you) is more than a little silly, and really the undead should have a bit
> more dignity than that.
I suppose it depends on how much clothes your Gangrel wear in the
first place. For me, they've always been near nude or not into
shapeshifting. It's only an inconvenience to those living in the
city and trying to maintain a Masquerade under urban conditions.
If it reduces the demand for the Discipline outside the clan, so
be it. My main concern is that Protean shouldn't be a Discipline
of stepping into the Spirit World, even partially. That's Auspex
of Spiritus or Necromancy or...almost anything, save for Protean.
> Mant
Vis
Vis Sierra
> : > However, since Dracula doesn't have to show up naked after turning into
> : > a bat, there is good reason.
> : Which is?
>
> Which is that he would look damn goofy, and break the mood.
I disagree. While this may be a bit inconvenient at LARPs, I
don't see this as breaking the mood. If you *have* a mood of
horror already struck, the vampire appearing nude and without
concern for it would appear almost alien.
Think Life Force or any of the other movies where the antagonist
is inhuman, nude, and deadly. There's an extra horror in that
this *thing* appears as a human, in a human's most vulnerable
state, yet can rip you apart to suck out your cordial filling.
"Goofy" is clothing the vampire to get a PG rating or get past
Standards & Practices censors as though this was a TV program.
Games for mature minds, indeed. :p
> I think you're being detrimentally picky about Protean-- the entire game is
> meant to convey a mood. Maybe you think it's atmospheric for a vampire to
> always be mugging people for clothes after changing form (and I can agree that
> certain Gangrel would be happiest without clothes in any form), but most
> people agree that he breaks the metagame.
The problem is that I don't see it as detrimental. I'd give in,
I'd concede the point if I actually thought it was more horrific
to have the vampire's clothes zap into sub-space and back. It
may be an inconvenience to the character and player, but I don't
think it's detrimental to the spirit of the clan, game, or genre.
I think it supports it.
> And this *is* a game-- certain elements (like logic, sometimes) have to be
> suspended or ignored for the game to be successfully played (depending on
> the group in question and their definition of success, of course).
Absolutely. Anything can be compromised. Everything but the
mood. I maybe alone on this but vampires without clothing don't
break the mood for me. Maybe I've been poisoned by too much
of WW's artwork featuring naked or near naked vampires...
Way back in the first edition of V:tM, there was a little
illustrated story that ran along the bottom of the pages.
It was a Dracula-like story about a Methuselah who awakens
in Sumeria, takes a vampire-king as a mate, then is driven
into torpor. She later awakens, adjusts, and in the modern
day finds a man who resembles her king reincarnated (yeah,
sounds familiar). The point: the first cel in the series
is of her coming out of torpor in Sumeria (or some other
ancient city-state) in a feral crouch, naked. No giggles.
No goofiness, just the elemental predator with clawed nails
and the scent of prey. That's the source of the mood when
I put horror in playing a Gangrel.
It doesn't help a Tzimisce count appear in formal wear, but there
are greater obstacles to playing Bela Lugosi or Coppola's Dracula
than carrying your clothing with you using Vampire.
> : You're missing my point. It's not about game-balance, it's not
> : that it is magic, it's about what the magic is responsible for.
>
> Mmm... this would be an awfully mechanistic "magic", wouldn't it? To be
> trite, "If it were perfectly predictable it would be *science*, not magic."
Well, less mechanistic than Spheres, but it would be consistent.
Disciplines need consistency, more than any other magical system.
They're 'strongly typed' to borrow a term from computer
programming. You have to fit the power into the mythology, into
the way the power is supposed to work, the horror genre, and the
clan which the Discipline primarily serves.
In the WoD, th enough draft of _Dracula_ was the dictation of
Vlad Tepes to Bram Stoker. I assume Stoker assumed the vampire
took its clothing with it. I think that explains the one case
of clothed vampires changing into bats, leaving the way the power
works, horror, and the clan as justifications. I think these are
better suited to trimming the fat of 'Astral clothing' and making
the power as streamlined and true to the core essence of the
power as possible. (Though it's okay to agree to disagree here.)
> Magic almost inherently involves unknown factors. I'm surprised you're
> complaining about jeans transforming with a vamp (which probably has more
> magical basis than the other way round-- Protean changes *you*. I dunno
> about you, but I consider what I'm currently wearing as part of me, at least
> on a subconscious level) but not how Protean 1 allows you to see perfectly in
> the dark regardless of ambient light...
I don't know whether I consider clothing a part of me while I
wear it. I definitely don't consider it part of my body,
permeated with my blood. Auras and the like go well with Auspex,
but the rest of the Disciplines use the power of the blood as an
excuse. I don't see why Protean would change this. If it *did*,
I don't see why Vicissitude, which allows you to affect yourself
*and* things outside of your body, wouldn't also allow you to
transform your clothes. (I have a much easier time of picturing
the vampire's flesh liquifying, then welling up through clothing
and engulfing it, than buying that Protean allows for dimensional
travel by putting clothing into Astral Space.)
Protean 1 actually does bother me slightly, but only because it's
not a 'natural' form. That breaks with the theme - animal-like
claws, melding with the earth, changing into an animal, changing
into a fog. Permitting the character one animal sense (the sense
of smell of a wolf, the sight of an owl, the hearing of a bat -
all of which relate to a mythical form of a vampire). However,
this is already taken with Auspex, and I can see why WW wouldn't
want to duplicate it.
It's not that it's not possible in physics (it's fine that it's
magic; you don't see me disagreeing with the concept of a vampire
changing into a bat; conservation of mass can kiss my @ss) it's
that one aspect of the power is not compatible with the rationale
of the Discipline, disrupting (what I see as) the theme and mood
set by the Discipline for the sake of keeping it PG-rated.
*That's* my point.
> I *understand* your point. I just don't feel it relevant to my games. That
> doesn't make your point wrong or anything, though.
Thank you, and I apologize for being a bit presumptuous in saying
you didn't, but I want to make it clear that we're on the same
side in putting the mood of the game first. I see consistency
within this theme as more critical than the explanation; if there
are details or an explanation given, they should serve to enhance
the theme in being consistent in the way the magic works.
Astral space or sub-space doesn't suit Protean, neither does an
aura of personness that envelopes your clothes. What fits as a
natural boundary is your organic body - both in the sense that
it is natural to you (your clothes don't change back to the ones
you died in, even though your hair grows back) and in that it's
permeated with the source of the Discipline's power (the blood).
> Joe, in your position about something else on the Vamp ML. ^_^
Vis, you have my sympathies. :)
Doctor X
All right. What about the other questions, though. If someone starts
digging where you've earth-melded, will they dig you up? Does one
actually become PART of the Earth?
I DO like the idea, though, that one must make skin-to-earth contact. I
tell my players "Ever see just one shoe on the side of the road and
wonder how it got there?"
Z?,
Dr.X
----
"So, are these rules optional or something?" -Me, after reading the
foreword to the Combat book.
man...@geocities.com
>
> > > > However, since Dracula doesn't have to show up naked after turning into
> > > > a bat, there is good reason.
> > >
> > > Which is?
> >
horror
> > game.
> >
> > If Dracula had oozed through the window in form of Mist then appeared in the
> > buff it wouldn't have had quite the same impact now would it?
>
> Yes, it would.
>
> In Terminator, I was able to see the lead character as
> menacing even though he was (whisper) nekkid (giggle).
Most vampires however aren't going to look as intimidating as Arnie though are
they?
> A draft, mist creeping through the parted window, an incubus in
> the flesh, and the ecstasy of your blood being drained. I find
> that less silly than a man with slicked-back hair and formal
> wear (including a red and black satin bat cape) materializing in
> a puff of smoke.
Well anyone wearing the "count" outfit looks silly anyway.
> Taking your clothes with you the way the Garou do seems the only
> viable (reasonable/consistant/non-silly) way to handle it if you
> are going to have them disappear. I'd like a sense that this is
> an ability learned from the Garou or at least mimicking them. I
> don't see why Protean would shuttle your personal effects off to
> Astral Space otherwise (no clan with Protean also has Auspex, the
> only Discipline with a reason to tangle with Astral Space...).
The Garou don't send their cloths of to the umbra, their extra body-mass is
normally spirit stuff but dedicated items aren't sent to the umbra. Instead
their clothes become part of their fur, and items become a tatoo, a WP can be
spent to turn the tatoo back to the item. There a Black Fury in one book who
wears this Fetish armour, in Crinos she has white fur on her chest as the
armour becomes part her pelt.
If protean turns vampire to wolf it can do coat to fur, absolutely no spirit-y
type stuff involved anywhere it that.
> > VRev says nothing about other shifting powers, so presumably Serpentis 4
> > doesn't take anything with you, very cool image of the snake slithering out
of
> > the pile of clothes. The Vicissitude "monster" forms like Zulo and
Chiroptean
> > Marauder will also ruin you nightware, but again turing into a large
nightmare
> > creature while bursting out of you clothes it very appropriate.
> >
> > Turning into a bat and probly being buried under you coat however (which is
> > what will happen if you don't take it off first and it doesn't change with
> > you) is more than a little silly, and really the undead should have a bit
> > more dignity than that.
>
> I suppose it depends on how much clothes your Gangrel wear in the
> first place. For me, they've always been near nude or not into
> shapeshifting.
Even vampires with Fotitude get cold. I just have vision of a vamp going bat,
then having to have his buddie uncermoniously pull him out from under a pile
of clothes.
> It's only an inconvenience to those living in the
> city and trying to maintain a Masquerade under urban conditions.
> If it reduces the demand for the Discipline outside the clan, so
> be it.
Protean has to be the most widely know "clan" discipline, since its pretty
much essential to survive outside the city. In Sabbat nomad packs practically
everyone learns Protean, whatever the Clan.
> My main concern is that Protean shouldn't be a Discipline
> of stepping into the Spirit World, even partially. That's Auspex
> of Spiritus or Necromancy or...almost anything, save for Protean.
Why not? Disclpines do all kinds of wierd things. As someone else said, if
they were nice and predicable they would be science.
If level 3 has a spirit commonent is possible most or all of it has some
spiritual basis.
man...@geocities.com
#v...@jps.net (Vis Sierra) wrote:
> > Which is that he would look damn goofy, and break the mood.
>
> I disagree. While this may be a bit inconvenient at LARPs, I
> don't see this as breaking the mood. If you *have* a mood of
> horror already struck, the vampire appearing nude and without
> concern for it would appear almost alien.
>
> Think Life Force or any of the other movies where the antagonist
> is inhuman, nude, and deadly. There's an extra horror in that
> this *thing* appears as a human, in a human's most vulnerable
> state, yet can rip you apart to suck out your cordial filling.
>
> "Goofy" is clothing the vampire to get a PG rating or get past
> Standards & Practices censors as though this was a TV program.
> Games for mature minds, indeed. :p
My current character had kept gettin her clothes ripped by shapeshifting,
using the spirtus 5 power.
After a while it just got silly and interfered with the flow of the game as
she had to keep getting a change of clothes, Chicago is just to damn cold to
go around nude, even for a vampire. That's bad for the mood.
I do accept that its quite subjective though, having thought about it I can
see your point about nude vampires. So I guess it could be done either way
mood wise.
> In the WoD, th enough draft of _Dracula_ was the dictation of
> Vlad Tepes to Bram Stoker. I assume Stoker assumed the vampire
> took its clothing with it. I think that explains the one case
> of clothed vampires changing into bats, leaving the way the power
> works, horror, and the clan as justifications. I think these are
> better suited to trimming the fat of 'Astral clothing' and making
> the power as streamlined and true to the core essence of the
> power as possible. (Though it's okay to agree to disagree here.)
No where is astral clothing mentioned. I always assumed clothing became fur,
just like Garou and dedicated clothing.
man...@geocities.com
Doctor X <doc...@aa.net> wrote:
> Robin Pfeifer wrote:
> >
> > Doctor X schrieb in Nachricht <3646DA...@aa.net>...
> >
> > >On a similar subject, does Earth Meld allow one to move around while
> > >underground?
> >
> > Not as such - this is a 6th level protean power as given in the PG 2nd
> > edition.
>
> All right. What about the other questions, though. If someone starts
> digging where you've earth-melded, will they dig you up? Does one
> actually become PART of the Earth?
If the earth is disturbed the vampire turns back to human form in a spray of
dirt, its in VRec. Digging where you are earth melded would definately count
as disturbing the earth.
> I DO like the idea, though, that one must make skin-to-earth contact. I
> tell my players "Ever see just one shoe on the side of the road and
> wonder how it got there?"
Why don't they just use their hands?
Avatar9000
item) I do not worry about the clothes.If werecreatures shapeshift, I do not
want to spend 10 minutes finding out what everyone does with their clothes, and
when they shift back to homid form on the other side of the world, I do not
want to spend 30 minutes to an hour letting the players hunt for clothes. It
slows down the story and can ruin the mood.(Unlees the mood of the story is
comedic.) I abjudicate it this way, If it is a standard piece of clothing or
standard Item that joe schmoe is carrying such as a watch or a wallet, then it
changes with them. Purses are a little tricker, if it is small and contains
nothing relevant to a game(such as a firearm) then I allow the change. For
firearms, weapons, or other large bulky Items, I will then require some way for
the characters to transport them wether it be talisman dedication or some other
type of magic. Just my 2 cents worth.
AVATARMIKE MAGE FANATIC AND DEVILS ADVOCATE
Raoul Duke
: jch...@bu.edu (Raoul Duke) wrote:
: > Which is that he would look damn goofy, and break the mood.
: I disagree. While this may be a bit inconvenient at LARPs, I
: don't see this as breaking the mood. If you *have* a mood of
: horror already struck, the vampire appearing nude and without
: concern for it would appear almost alien.
Hmm... let's explore this a bit. I agree that it's entirely possible for
said vampire to be an impressive, primal predator. In the flow of a game, I
think the odds are more often against it.
While the image *is* a powerful one, it's only good as an image-- when that
vampire ceases to be iconic, his nudity becomes detrimental.
(looks over last paragraph, decides to get rid of the lit-crit)
Look at it this way. An NPC Gangrel that's so bestial that it doesn't care
about human mores-- scary.
That Gangrel as a PC quickly becomes comical, since its player *will* care
about human norms (at least most of the time, unless it's in an exclusively
wilderness game). Every time he wants to exercise his signature power, he has
to waste time finding a safe, unobserved place to change back, and then waste
*more* time finding a new set of clothes. And then when he changes *back* he
has to worry about getting his hind legs up in said clothes, or possibly even
completely tangled in batform.
If you don't have to worry about the associated effects of the nudity, it's
cool and scary. But when you do (and a player will usually be close enough
to his character to do so), it becomes a nuisance that could easily devolve
into a joke, and suck *any* drama out of the character.
*That's* my real problem with it. I just don't think it works as a standard
effect for PCs. It's cool for NPCs though.
: Think Life Force or any of the other movies where the antagonist
: is inhuman, nude, and deadly. There's an extra horror in that
: this *thing* appears as a human, in a human's most vulnerable
: state, yet can rip you apart to suck out your cordial filling.
Yup. But we didn't see wossname nude for *that* long-- it was a (relatively)
fleeting image.
And let me just note that that's the first time I've ever seen Lifeforce used
as a good example of *anything*. :)
: Way back in the first edition of V:tM, there was a little
: illustrated story that ran along the bottom of the pages.
: It was a Dracula-like story about a Methuselah who awakens
: in Sumeria, takes a vampire-king as a mate, then is driven
: into torpor. She later awakens, adjusts, and in the modern
: day finds a man who resembles her king reincarnated (yeah,
: sounds familiar). The point: the first cel in the series
: is of her coming out of torpor in Sumeria (or some other
: ancient city-state) in a feral crouch, naked. No giggles.
: No goofiness, just the elemental predator with clawed nails
: and the scent of prey. That's the source of the mood when
: I put horror in playing a Gangrel.
Yeah, I remember that little story. I still have my 1st ed, actually (didnt
bother buying 2nd, though).
Note that as soon as we get to know her as a character, that she puts some
clothes on, and then never appears as a nude predator again...
: Protean 1 actually does bother me slightly, but only because it's
: not a 'natural' form. That breaks with the theme - animal-like
: claws, melding with the earth, changing into an animal, changing
: into a fog. Permitting the character one animal sense (the sense
: of smell of a wolf, the sight of an owl, the hearing of a bat -
: all of which relate to a mythical form of a vampire). However,
: this is already taken with Auspex, and I can see why WW wouldn't
: want to duplicate it.
Actually, judging by some of the upper-level Protean powers (like Flesh of
Marble and Body of Sun), I think the power's theme is meant to be
"shapeshifting", as opposed to Vicissitude's "mutation." Protean is mastery
and transcendence of the body; Vicissitude is the love child of David
Cronenberg and Clive Barker.
I think it's still a pretty tenuous distinction, though; it's almost like WW
staffers are saying "would this Protean power be nasty? Ok, put it in
Vicissitude then."
: Thank you, and I apologize for being a bit presumptuous in saying
: you didn't, but I want to make it clear that we're on the same
: side in putting the mood of the game first. I see consistency
: within this theme as more critical than the explanation; if there
: are details or an explanation given, they should serve to enhance
: the theme in being consistent in the way the magic works.
Oh, I agree. I just think that some things don't necessarily bear being
looked at too closely; it's like seeing Mickey with his head off, yes?
getting too goog a look at *why* a thing is may get in the way of enjoying it
uncritically.
Joe, always enjoys a good discussion though
The Mess
Robin Pfeifer wrote:
> But you have to confess that there is something eerie about clothes lying
> crumpled on the ground and slowly being filled by some mist, which begins to
> reform to a body...
Yes, and if a player wanted to achieve that effect, I would allow it.
> And if you take with you whatever you have on your person when you go misty,
> why has no-one thought of making Fort Knox obsolete? It's a gas...
>
> Robin
Quick rule of thumb, only your clothes and objects small enough to fit in your
pockets transform with you. Actually, perhaps a better idea is only objects
actually in your pockets transform with you (i.e. in your pockets, they become
part of your clothes).
Actually, I accidentally created a house rule in my game where it was based on
what you perceived as "part of you." After a female Gangrel returned to human
form, I mentioned her purse and the players picked up on it. Rather than admit
I was stupid and forgot that she shouldn't have it, I simply declared that she
included it as part of her subconscious self image. It has worked rather well
since then.
Robin Pfeifer
Doctor X schrieb in Nachricht <364818...@aa.net>...
>Robin Pfeifer wrote:
>>
>> Doctor X schrieb in Nachricht <3646DA...@aa.net>...
>>
>> >On a similar subject, does Earth Meld allow one to move around while
>> >underground?
>>
>> Not as such - this is a 6th level protean power as given in the PG 2nd
>> edition.
>
>All right. What about the other questions, though. If someone starts
>digging where you've earth-melded, will they dig you up? Does one
>actually become PART of the Earth?
>
>tell my players "Ever see just one shoe on the side of the road and
>wonder how it got there?"
>
>Dr.X
I only answered to the question that I could solve based on rules. If you
want my personal opinion, however, I think *if* they dig up the earth and
put it elsewhere, you'll move along with it. After all it wouldn't be much
of a *Protean* ability if they could just dig you up, right?
As for pouring concrete over the place, well, that vampire is going to be in
for a nasty surprise. The rules say that you cannot go through any other
stuff than earth to reach the earth beneath, so it shouldn't work the other
way round either.
But this is only off the top of my head, never having met the situation
myself.
As ST or player, that is.
Robin
Adam J. lyle
Vis Sierra wrote:
> Clothing being shed when the vampire shifts forms or enters the
> earth fits the themes of the Gangrel being incompatible with
> civilization's constraints and the blood acting on the vampire's
> body. Teleporting your pocket change into hyperspace because
> it's in your personal aura does not.
>
> Vis
How about this then, predators (and prey) learn from an early age to hide any trace
of themselves. Why can this not be some kind of natural self-preservation thing.
Instead of having clothes shed, torn, or dropped out of thin air and raising
annoying questions, they are instead taken with....leaving nothing to question
behind....
-WolfJack
(aka Adam J. Lyle)
Fred Garber
: Doctor X schrieb in Nachricht <364818...@aa.net>...
I remember a quote "Sure, they can dig you up. But who can acquire a
backhoe on such short notice?"
I think it becomes a moot point because when Earth melded, it
never says you _are_ asleep. In fact, in the Gangrel Clanbook story,
there's a part where the Vampire is dimly aware of events over his
head.
: But this is only off the top of my head, never having met the situation
: myself.
: As ST or player, that is.
: Robin
And for the concrete? Try it. Any decent ST can poke holes in it
forever. Potence or strength rolls to break through. When do you do
it? Earth Meld leaves no visible trace. You need to have somebody
watching exactly where the character goes to ground, and make
sure that he doesn't move 100 feet to the left while you're buying
cement.
I'd move during the day, when the stuff hasn't hardened, and take
the agg wound from sunlight. It'll be worth it to see their faces as
I unEarth Meld behind them the next night.
--
Fred Garber
Mail me? Send it to fga...@kent.edu, and not anything
else your newsreader supplies. I use a cheapo university
system, and it does strange things to the routings.
Robin Pfeifer
Avatar9000 schrieb in Nachricht
<19981110122234...@ng40.aol.com>...
>Unless a player character has something excessive (Like armor or a handheld
>item) I do not worry about the clothes.If werecreatures shapeshift, I do
not
>want to spend 10 minutes finding out what everyone does with their clothes,
and
>when they shift back to homid form on the other side of the world, I do not
>want to spend 30 minutes to an hour letting the players hunt for clothes.
It
>slows down the story and can ruin the mood.(Unlees the mood of the story is
>comedic.)
I made it very clear to my players that their clothes and personal effects
are not going to change into the umbra with them. Likewise, their clothes
are destroyed when they shift into other forms. This excludes dedicated
items and fetishes of course. We don't spend any time with this, except for
my players mentioning casually that they undress. Actually it enhances the
game IMO.
I think it is too easy to use the umbra or, for that matter, the crinos
form, to solve mundane matters. The garou could evade anyone by just
stepping sideways, just to name one example. If they could take everything
with them, they would rely on this far too often.
I ST for a pack of Get of Fenris who follow the totem Raven. Raven does not
want its followers to amass wealth (or indeed own anything more than is
absolutely necessary), so it provides the characters with what they need.
For instance, when they got lost in the umbra and returned to the realm in a
Near Eastern catastrophe scenario, Raven made a sack of old clothes tumble
from a truck delivering used clothes donations to somewhere.
I think having to deal with the daily chores of being supernatural helps
enhancing the mood. Think of vampires only casually mentioning that they go
into the pub to find someone to provide some blood points to them and then
proceed with the story - now, would that spoil the mood, or what?
Greetings,
Robin
Avatar9000
>into the pub to find someone to provide some blood points to them and then
>proceed with the story - now, would that spoil the mood, or what?
There is a BIG difference between vampires acquiring blood and where clothes go
when shapeshifting. The mood of vampire is dictated by that fact that one has
become a Blood-sucking vampire. Not one has to take my clothes off for a
discipline vampire. Just noting the difference. No offense.
Robin Pfeifer
Avatar9000 schrieb in Nachricht
<19981112233417...@ng101.aol.com>...
None taken. But you haven't heard my views on protean or the zulo form
yet... ;-)
Robin
Vis Sierra
> Vis Sierra (#v...@jps.net) wrote:
> : jch...@bu.edu (Raoul Duke) wrote:
> : > Which is that he would look damn goofy, and break the mood.
> : I disagree. While this may be a bit inconvenient at LARPs, I
> : don't see this as breaking the mood. If you *have* a mood of
> : horror already struck, the vampire appearing nude and without
> : concern for it would appear almost alien.
>
> Hmm... let's explore this a bit. I agree that it's entirely possible for
> said vampire to be an impressive, primal predator. In the flow of a game, I
> think the odds are more often against it.
I kinda got the impression most Gangrel were impressive, primal
predators, especially with the third edition's renewed emphasis
on horror. Those that aren't, well, wouldn't be with clothes
on, either. I only meant that nudity shouldn't be viewed as an
impediment to the mood in horror stories.
> While the image *is* a powerful one, it's only good as an image-- when that
> vampire ceases to be iconic, his nudity becomes detrimental.
If it's truly a bother, I'll concede the point. I didn't see
it as that much of a problem. The image doesn't require that
the vampire not be able to transform clothing, after all, so it
may yet be useful on its own.
> (looks over last paragraph, decides to get rid of the lit-crit)
>
> Look at it this way. An NPC Gangrel that's so bestial that it doesn't care
> about human mores-- scary.
>
> That Gangrel as a PC quickly becomes comical, since its player *will* care
> about human norms (at least most of the time, unless it's in an exclusively
> wilderness game). Every time he wants to exercise his signature power, he has
> to waste time finding a safe, unobserved place to change back, and then waste
> *more* time finding a new set of clothes. And then when he changes *back* he
> has to worry about getting his hind legs up in said clothes, or possibly even
> completely tangled in batform.
I wonder how quickly the nudity taboo would fade with the lack of
a libido. I get the impression that it could remain for quite a
while, out of habit and Humanity (more going with the flow of the
herd rather than the ethical side of the trait).
> If you don't have to worry about the associated effects of the nudity, it's
> cool and scary. But when you do (and a player will usually be close enough
> to his character to do so), it becomes a nuisance that could easily devolve
> into a joke, and suck *any* drama out of the character.
>
> *That's* my real problem with it. I just don't think it works as a standard
> effect for PCs. It's cool for NPCs though.
I see, and good point. I'm not a player of Gangrel myself so I
haven't had to face this for a character I've played. Most of my
characters have some sort of impairment, often a crippling one,
related to their signature power. Call me an angstbunny if you
will, but it comes with the territory (...that of playing Malks
and wraiths - great fun but not for everybody, I suppose).
So, if it does interfere with your game and mood, I promise
not to come to your game and chide you for being practical.
> : Think Life Force or any of the other movies where the antagonist
> : is inhuman, nude, and deadly. There's an extra horror in that
> : this *thing* appears as a human, in a human's most vulnerable
> : state, yet can rip you apart to suck out your cordial filling.
>
> Yup. But we didn't see wossname nude for *that* long-- it was a (relatively)
> fleeting image.
What's the longest time any movie character's remained
nude (limiting this to R-rated flicks for the moment)?
For what it's worth, the 'vampires' were actually nude
the entire time, merely Obfuscated in WoD terms. :)
> And let me just note that that's the first time I've ever seen Lifeforce used
> as a good example of *anything*. :)
Really? For the genre, I thought it was above average.
Granted, that's not saying much, but I can't think of a
movie that does comet riding alien vampires any better.
> : Way back in the first edition of V:tM, there was a little
> : illustrated story that ran along the bottom of the pages.
> : It was a Dracula-like story about a Methuselah who awakens
> : in Sumeria, takes a vampire-king as a mate, then is driven
> : into torpor. She later awakens, adjusts, and in the modern
> : day finds a man who resembles her king reincarnated (yeah,
> : sounds familiar). The point: the first cel in the series
> : is of her coming out of torpor in Sumeria (or some other
> : ancient city-state) in a feral crouch, naked. No giggles.
> : No goofiness, just the elemental predator with clawed nails
> : and the scent of prey. That's the source of the mood when
> : I put horror in playing a Gangrel.
>
> Yeah, I remember that little story. I still have my 1st ed, actually (didnt
> bother buying 2nd, though).
(I didn't for a long while, then I bought it second hand. The
first edition was better in my opinion. This third edition is
starting to grow on me, in spite of some initial misgivings. I
think what I like most is that much of the mood I felt was absent
from the second edition hopscotched from the first to the third.)
> Note that as soon as we get to know her as a character, that she puts some
> clothes on, and then never appears as a nude predator again...
Although it's never specified anywhere, I got the impression
she's a Toreador (perhaps a hedonistic Ventrue). It was useful
in establishing she's a vampire, it wasn't really her theme.
Gangrel, on the other hand, ought to get more mileage out of
the predator motif, nude or otherwise.
> : Protean 1 actually does bother me slightly, but only because it's
> : not a 'natural' form. That breaks with the theme - animal-like
> : claws, melding with the earth, changing into an animal, changing
> : into a fog. Permitting the character one animal sense (the sense
> : of smell of a wolf, the sight of an owl, the hearing of a bat -
> : all of which relate to a mythical form of a vampire). However,
> : this is already taken with Auspex, and I can see why WW wouldn't
> : want to duplicate it.
>
> Actually, judging by some of the upper-level Protean powers (like Flesh of
> Marble and Body of Sun), I think the power's theme is meant to be
> "shapeshifting", as opposed to Vicissitude's "mutation." Protean is mastery
> and transcendence of the body; Vicissitude is the love child of David
> Cronenberg and Clive Barker.
Nod. This has always been a problem. It was explained to me
that Protean's emphasis was on the natural (be it shapeshifting
or communing with nature, a la Earth Meld) while Vicissitude's
emphasis was on the unnatural (think Dunwich Horror Revenants
and, of course, Lumley's Necroscope). Flesh of Marble and Body
of Sun are both still natural...after a fashion. Zulo form is
meant to be anything-but.
> I think it's still a pretty tenuous distinction, though; it's almost like WW
> staffers are saying "would this Protean power be nasty? Ok, put it in
> Vicissitude then."
That's why I think there should be a greater consistency as
to how the magic works. If Protean's actually some sort of
shamanic/animistic nature spirit/spirit world association,
bring that to the fore. Making it an adaptation of Garou Gifts,
Rites, and natural abilities in the way Chimersty and Mythceria
are supposed to have been derived from Glamour or Obeah from
Cathayan Disciplines would put comparisons to Vicissitude on
the back burner while people concentrate on the theme/mood/in-
character aspects of the Disciplines.
> : Thank you, and I apologize for being a bit presumptuous in saying
> : you didn't, but I want to make it clear that we're on the same
> : side in putting the mood of the game first. I see consistency
> : within this theme as more critical than the explanation; if there
> : are details or an explanation given, they should serve to enhance
> : the theme in being consistent in the way the magic works.
>
> Oh, I agree. I just think that some things don't necessarily bear being
> looked at too closely; it's like seeing Mickey with his head off, yes?
> getting too goog a look at *why* a thing is may get in the way of enjoying it
> uncritically.
I've tried hard not to overthink it (I find that's a big problem
with people taking their first look at Wraith, asking why wraiths
doesn't fall through the floor when they're incorporeal, etc.) so
I've tried to limit myself to more constructive thoughts and
alternate possibilities. Still there's a limit to how uncritical
one can be and still present the opposing side of a disagreement.
:)
> Joe, always enjoys a good discussion though
Vis,
Vis Sierra
> Vis Sierra wrote:
> > Clothing being shed when the vampire shifts forms or enters the
> > earth fits the themes of the Gangrel being incompatible with
> > civilization's constraints and the blood acting on the vampire's
> > body. Teleporting your pocket change into hyperspace because
> > it's in your personal aura does not.
> How about this then, predators (and prey) learn from an early age to hide any trace
> of themselves. Why can this not be some kind of natural self-preservation thing.
> Instead of having clothes shed, torn, or dropped out of thin air and raising
> annoying questions, they are instead taken with....leaving nothing to question
> behind....
Good point, but it seems the Gangrel Masquerade-threatening clan
weakness would be do more to alarm the prey than mislaid clothing
(at least -that- can serve as a distraction, inviting the prey to
investigate an artifact it must assume was left by another of its
own species...possibly confusing it for part of a mating ritual).
The weakness seems more of a threat, in my opinion, but nothing's
been done about that. Plus, the Discipline already gives you the
ability to alter animal features to human ones. That makes it
seem like masking your clan weakness should be easy compared to
converting your Nikes to the pads on your wolf paws or your car
keys to...whatever the equivalent is on a bat.
> -WolfJack
> (aka Adam J. Lyle)
-Vis Sierra
Raoul Duke
: I kinda got the impression most Gangrel were impressive, primal
: predators, especially with the third edition's renewed emphasis
: on horror. Those that aren't, well, wouldn't be with clothes
: on, either. I only meant that nudity shouldn't be viewed as an
: impediment to the mood in horror stories.
: If it's truly a bother, I'll concede the point. I didn't see
: it as that much of a problem. The image doesn't require that
: the vampire not be able to transform clothing, after all, so it
: may yet be useful on its own.
Oh, I'm not trying to browbeat you or anything (at least not any more ^_^).
Keep it, by all means.
I think I see why we're at loggerheads, tho. If I'm reading you right, you
seem to be enjoying the VtM setting on an iconic level (that is, drama trumps
realism in a conflict between the two), whereas I want some more verisimilitude
in my games than you do (I want to have my characters worry about picky
details, at least to an extent).
(geez, maybe we should take this to .advocacy if I keep using 'iconic'...)
Sound accurate?
: I wonder how quickly the nudity taboo would fade with the lack of
: a libido. I get the impression that it could remain for quite a
: while, out of habit and Humanity (more going with the flow of the
: herd rather than the ethical side of the trait).
Hmm... I'd say it would stick around as long as Humanity did; it's a pretty
significant taboo in these parts, and even without a sex drive, the need to
fit in with the herd would still drive it. Camouflage.
A true nonhuman probably wouldn't care if what the kine thought of them anyway.
: Most of my
: characters have some sort of impairment, often a crippling one,
: related to their signature power. Call me an angstbunny if you
: will, but it comes with the territory (...that of playing Malks
: and wraiths - great fun but not for everybody, I suppose).
Angstbunny. :)
No, sounds good. All in the name of good gaming...
: Really? For the genre, I thought it was above average.
: Granted, that's not saying much, but I can't think of a
: movie that does comet riding alien vampires any better.
That's a rather limited genre, you have to admit. :)
: > Yeah, I remember that little story. I still have my 1st ed, actually
: > (didnt bother buying 2nd, though).
: (I didn't for a long while, then I bought it second hand. The
: first edition was better in my opinion. This third edition is
: starting to grow on me, in spite of some initial misgivings. I
: think what I like most is that much of the mood I felt was absent
: from the second edition hopscotched from the first to the third.)
I think that's the consensus. I'd actually like to hear from someone who
liked 2nd *and* 3rd editions, now...
: Nod. This has always been a problem. It was explained to me
: that Protean's emphasis was on the natural (be it shapeshifting
: or communing with nature, a la Earth Meld) while Vicissitude's
: emphasis was on the unnatural (think Dunwich Horror Revenants
: and, of course, Lumley's Necroscope). Flesh of Marble and Body
: of Sun are both still natural...after a fashion. Zulo form is
: meant to be anything-but.
Yeah, that appears to be the divider. Kind of strange that it only works on a
thematic level... wonder how vampires IC describe the difference?
: That's why I think there should be a greater consistency as
: to how the magic works. If Protean's actually some sort of
: shamanic/animistic nature spirit/spirit world association,
: bring that to the fore.
Mmm.
See, I don't think any of the Disciplines are 'magic' per se-- when I think
'magic', I think knowledge. Most Disciplines seem to me more like tricks a
vampiric body can perform.
While a handful of Discs probably are the kind of art that gets taught (mainly
the ones that break mythical vampire paradigm-- Thaum, Necro, Chimer, and a
few others), I think most are just things you can just *do* once you get the
hang of it (as represented by spending XP on it), and don't hold up to any
real scrutiny as to motive or logic.
After all, "why" can vampires up their stats with Blood? They just can.
Individual licks no doubt have their pet theories, but when you come down to
it, it just works because it does.
I admit my thinking on this is influenced some by the standard vampire
stories, which don't bother looking for explanations for why or how vampires
can do the things they do.
Hmm. Looks like we've switched narrative positions all of a sudden. :)
: I've tried hard not to overthink it (I find that's a big problem
: with people taking their first look at Wraith, asking why wraiths
: doesn't fall through the floor when they're incorporeal, etc.) so
Really? The main problem I see people having with Wraith is that it's so damn
*bleak*. I've been looking over Wraith for a while, and have grown to like
it, but most people I know's problem with it is that it is so relentlessly
negative. You're dead, you have unfinished business from life that pulls at
you, you're trapped in a fascist state that does *worse* than enslave people,
and you have a constant voice in the back of your head that wants nothing more
than to see you fail utterly in everything that's ever mattered to you, and
then make sure you die for real.
Bit too much of a downer for many people.
: I've tried to limit myself to more constructive thoughts and
: alternate possibilities. Still there's a limit to how uncritical
: one can be and still present the opposing side of a disagreement.
: :)
Well, yeah.
Joe
------
"It was at this time I began seeing some rather uncanny parallels between
my life and the life of Jesus. Neither of us really had a home to speak
of... we both basically traveled around the countryside irritating people."
http://www.cinenet.net/~jaybab/barbelith.html http://members.xoom.com/McGuffins
Lovelace
not fully made my games 3rd edition, and I doubt I will. I will pick and choose
what I like and keep the house rules I have always used. I enjoy 3rd ed.s new look
and the writing is much more what I look for. Also the new horror aspect is what i
have always strived for in my games, and my favorite unused Clan, the Setites, have
been given a few more reasons to exist in the world of darkness.
Lovelace
EricTolle
> "Goofy" is clothing the vampire to get a PG rating or get past
> Standards & Practices censors as though this was a TV program.
> Games for mature minds, indeed. :p
You want goofy? I'll see your goofyness and raise it.
Pcture a vampire turning into a wolf or bat...and getting tangled up
in his clothing. I mean, talk about silly: would-be victim standing
there while the Lord of the Night tries to figure out how to get his
wolf head out from the sweater (and picture a wolf wearing jockey
shorts-'tis to laugh). It could get worse; Mina not being seduced by
the Count because he's being hauled away on a public indecency charge,
people making dirty jokes about him, situations designed for a B-movie
comedy....I like it.
In fact, this is silly enough that I may borrow it for the next TFOS
game I'm in.
--
Eric Tolle sch...@silcom.com
"Hey, the Count has turned into a cloud of mist! You get his Rolex,
and I'll grab his wallet!"