An Open Letter from Stephan Wieck, President:White Wolf, Inc.
raga...@netcom.com
concerning the relationship between SJGames and White Wolf.
While Steve Jackson's message seemed to be directed at both
myself and at the gaming public, I would like to direct my response
only to those of you in the gaming public who care enough about
the situation to be reading the internet traffic that has resulted from
Steve Jackson's message. I apologize that the souring of the
relationship between SJGames and White Wolf has been made
public; I'm sure that you all have more positive things to read about
or do. Publicly airing the business problems between companies or
the relationship problems between individuals only serves to detract
from our hobby.
Nevertheless, I feel compelled for basic PR reasons to put forth
something in way of an answer to Steve Jackson's message:
First of all, I would like to offer some defense of my personal
character, since Steve Jackson chose to attack it in his message. By
way of defense, I would simply ask that people look around the
industry and talk to people who have dealt with me personally. Talk
to distributors, retailers, gamers, or other companies like FASA or
WOTC and ask them what they think of my character and my sense
of fairness and honesty. More importantly, you could also talk to
the people at White Wolf who work for me. Ask them
confidentially what they honestly think of me.
I will let that be my character defense.
I cannot help but add the request that you do the same inquiries
about Steve Jackson. Talk to people whose works he has previously
licensed for GURPs and see how many of them are happy. Are the
French creators of In Nomine happy with Steve Jackson? Is Ral
Partha happy with their business dealings with Steve Jackson? Talk
to distributors and other people in the industry, talk to his
employees confidentially.
Form your own opinions of Steve Jackson and myself. Please don't
rely on what Mr. Jackson says about me to form your opinions of
my character or the character the other thirty-five people who work
at White Wolf, such as Phil Brucato, our Mage Developer who has
behaved admirably throughout this situation.
I would like to add on the question of character, that I do not have a
problem with many of the people who work at Steve Jackson
games. Particularly, Jeff Koke and Derek Pearcy have always
conducted themselves professionally and honestly when I have had
occasion to speak with them or deal with them directly.
Second, I would like to comment briefly on the some of the specific
points in Steve Jackson's message.
I did not, nor would I ever condemn the character of a former White
Wolf employee. I did suggest that Steve Jackson take with a grain
of salt anything he may hear from a former employee who may
have left with bad feelings towards myself or White Wolf.
However, the few people who have left or been asked to leave
White Wolf, I still hold in high regard, no matter what the reason
they are no longer with White Wolf. I have even put in positive
words on their behalf when they interviewed with other gaming
companies (I would say something more here, but I won't. Ask me
in e-mail).
Steve Jackson did specifically call me a liar, and yes I did take great
offense to that and found it to be extremely unprofessional and
counterproductive to a good business relationship. On top of all the
other difficulties that we had over our companies' relationship, I
considered name-calling to be the final signal that ended any chance
of the relationship being repaired.
I did not respond to Steve Jackson's fax because I had previously
told him that I was not interested in devoting more time to
clarifying our concerns over the Mage manuscript. I felt that several
hours of Phil Brucato's time reading the manuscript, Phil's response
letter to SJGames, and Phil's and my subsequent hours of telephone
discussions with Steve Jackson were more than sufficient to clarify
our concerns over SJGames republishing our manuscript. I do feel I
have more important and more positive things to pursue with my
time than yet again repeating our position to Steve Jackson for the
twentieth time.
Finally, I do not want to get into a battle of "who said what" or
"who did what" over the internet, therefore I will not air White
Wolf's side of the story on all of these issues, and even if Steve
Jackson chooses to respond to my message here, I will not be airing
anymore messages on this subject over the internet for now. Also
for legal and professional reasons, I have asked the staff at White
Wolf to confine their statements on this subject to a bare minimum.
Certainly, we will be doing everything possible and reasonable to
end our business relationship with Steve Jackson Games. I have no
desire to do business with someone who launches public attacks
against me or the company that I am proud to be part of.
Undoubtedly, Steve Jackson will try to build a public relations front
to the effect that "Big bad White Wolf is trying to squash poor us". I
just ask you all to think long and hard before you allow Steve
Jackson to position himself as a martyr in your minds.
I apologize to all of the people who play GURPs and have enjoyed
the past World of Darkness translation products. I will shamelessly
recommend to you that you try our own books if you are so
inclined. We are very proud of what we publish; otherwise we
wouldn't be doing it.
Thanks,
Stephan Wieck
President
White Wolf
--
Sam Chupp (raga...@netcom.com, tore...@aol.com)
White Wolf Game Studio 404-292-1819
Internet Representative / Assistant Creative Director / Playtest Coordinator
Try The Storyteller's Circle, White Wolf's MUSH: draco.unm.edu 6666
paolo bertiglia
David C. Birkhead
relevance to finishing what both have started. In my opinion no one
on either side should get their danders up over simple wienerizm.
This is business, to enhance the gaming environment, hopefuly to
synergistically enhance sales. Personal kvetching should be relegated
to personal kvetching. I enjoy the past products of both camps. I
buy the products of both camps. I wait, and hope to see more linked
projects. Looks like I'm going to be waiting a long time.
My best hopes (despite the facts) for the future.
Carpe Noctum,
Dave
Norah Hogoboom
Letter" NOTHING, absolutly NOTHING, was of substance. He tried to use one
of the oldest tricks in the book which is bait and switch. He starts out
saying, "this is our position on the SJG/WW debate" and ends with "I'm a
hell of a nice guy buy our products because I'm so nice and Steve is so
mean" without telling you anything about the problem itself. Now I know
Steve Jackson and have worked with people who used to work for his
company and I know that Steve Jackson is no saint. He can be petty,
childish, irrational, and unfair. In other words Steve Jackson is HUMAN
and by releasing his side of the story (and remember it is HIS side) he
at the very least has shown honesty and integrity to the public (I
suppose getting to look like the good guy doesn't hurt either).
On the other hand all we have gotten from Wieck is "heck I'm a nice guy,
believe me and don't believe all those things my evil employees say". For
an example I will cite Gary Groth Owner of Fantagraphics whose employees,
ex and otherwise will often say bad things about him. Are they true? You
bet 90% of what they say is true Gary can be a total bastard if he wants
to. Do I dislike Gary since I am an ex-employee? No, but I don't agree
with a lot of things he does. So does this mean we should belive the
employees or Wieck? I would put my money on the employees while they are
being bitter and spitefull at least they will be closer to the truth and
not attempt to white-wash it.
A PERSONAL ASIDE TO MR. WIECK:
We are not children or fools do not expect us to be fooled by a
puffed up PR piece meant to skirt the issue. If you want respect work for
it don't think you are deserving of our respect because you don't lie and
are a nice guy. Release the facts of the matter or in other words PUT UP
OR SHUT UP.
Andrew Herington
(A conserned gamer who enjoys SJG and WW products and whose views are
solely his own.)
Curtis Shenton
In article <ragabashC...@netcom.com> you write:
>
>While Steve Jackson's message seemed to be directed at both
>myself and at the gaming public, I would like to direct my response
>only to those of you in the gaming public who care enough about
>the situation to be reading the internet traffic that has resulted from
>Steve Jackson's message. I apologize that the souring of the
>relationship between SJGames and White Wolf has been made
>public; I'm sure that you all have more positive things to read about
>or do. Publicly airing the business problems between companies or
>the relationship problems between individuals only serves to detract
>from our hobby.
Well people wanted to know why GURPS Mage wasn't coming out. And Steve
Jackson told us his side of why we're not seeing GURPS Mage. I'd still
like to hear WW's reasons for rejecting the final manuscript if their
reasons differ from Mr. Jackson's explanation.
>
>
>Finally, I do not want to get into a battle of "who said what" or
>"who did what" over the internet, therefore I will not air White
>Wolf's side of the story on all of these issues, and even if Steve
>Jackson chooses to respond to my message here, I will not be airing
>anymore messages on this subject over the internet for now. Also
>for legal and professional reasons, I have asked the staff at White
>Wolf to confine their statements on this subject to a bare minimum.
If your side of the story is different from what Mr. Jackson presented
why not let people know? I can't think of a professional reason for not
defending your actions and the only legal reason I can think of is that
you haven't gotten the story you want to use straight yet, and yes I
know that's a pessemistic view.
>
>Certainly, we will be doing everything possible and reasonable to
>end our business relationship with Steve Jackson Games. I have no
>desire to do business with someone who launches public attacks
>against me or the company that I am proud to be part of.
>Undoubtedly, Steve Jackson will try to build a public relations front
>to the effect that "Big bad White Wolf is trying to squash poor us". I
>just ask you all to think long and hard before you allow Steve
>Jackson to position himself as a martyr in your minds.
And I for one have no desire to buy the products of a company which acts
in bad faith with a business partner. I always like to wait to hear both
sides of the story before I make any judgements. But both sides of this
dispute have had a chance to post their statements and positions and WW
chose not to defend it's actions with any concrete reasons. Until I hear
convincing evidence that Steve Jackson is lying has misrepresented what
happneed between WW and SJG then in my mind WW is a company I don't want
to give a dime to.
>
>
>Thanks,
>Stephan Wieck
>President
>White Wolf
>--
>Sam Chupp (raga...@netcom.com, tore...@aol.com)
>White Wolf Game Studio 404-292-1819
>Internet Representative / Assistant Creative Director / Playtest Coordinator
>Try The Storyteller's Circle, White Wolf's MUSH: draco.unm.edu 6666
--
Curtis Shenton cur...@netcom.com internet & 4@3091 WWIVnet
Ever design your own magic or psionic system in an RPG? Ever though
about doing it? Wish you had some guidelines to help you? Join the
discussion on the loc-l mailing list. Email me to find out more.
Paul Andrew King
: (well before the SJ flame), why GURPS Mage isn't out?
The SJ flame had the answer. White Wolf changed the rules on what SJG
could publish and SJG have to accept that.
I think the SJ flame is an accurate statement of the situation *from
Steve Jackson's point of view*. Stephan Wieck may have a different
interpretation of things, but the basic facts are almost certainly
correct.
: I'm on your side against any use of flame on the net ...
: but I'm still waiting for an official WW position on the whole matter.
Thats it. "I'm a nice guy, Steve Jackson isn't and he did too call me a liar"
wrapped up in PR-speak. Unless they get provoked into saying more they
aren't going to say anything.
Paul K.
paolo bertiglia
Newsgroups: alt.games.whitewolf,rec.games.frp.misc
Followup-To: alt.games.whitewolf,rec.games.frp.misc
References: <ragabashC...@netcom.com>
Organization: Illuminati Online (on pentagon)
Distribution:
raga...@netcom.com wrote:
: public; I'm sure that you all have more positive things to read about
: or do. Publicly airing the business problems between companies or
: the relationship problems between individuals only serves to detract
: from our hobby.
I think that noone care about relationship problems, but I am concerned
about an entire line of game and a deal that when it came out was a
breacktrought among the game field.
: I considered name-calling to be the final signal that ended any chance
: of the relationship being repaired.
Personal o businnes relation?
: Certainly, we will be doing everything possible and reasonable to
: end our business relationship with Steve Jackson Games. I have no
For a personal problem?
It seem a bit harsh, if not for SJ for the GURPS players (some of them
Storytelling player as well).
Or there are other reason?
In other term, and that's the question that I'm waiting to be answered
(well before the SJ flame), why GURPS Mage isn't out?
: the past World of Darkness translation products. I will shamelessly
: recommend to you that you try our own books if you are so
That's the answer? (I truly hope it isn't)...(see how the lack of info
help to think of the worst ?).
: Thanks,
: Stephan Wieck
: President
: White Wolf
: --
: Sam Chupp (raga...@netcom.com, tore...@aol.com)
I'm on your side against any use of flame on the net ...
but I'm still waiting for an official WW position on the whole matter.
Paolo Bertiglia (from Italy :)
P.S. sorry about previous post, I goofed a little.
Brett Slocum
Anthony Ragan <ecz...@mvs.oac.ucla.edu> wrote:
>
> To answer one of Steve's few specific points (Just ask anyone
>who knows either of us, to paraphrase), I do know several people
>who write for the rpg industry: those who have worked with SJG have
>almost uniformly good things to say about the experience. With those
>who have worked with White Wolf, it's almost the opposite.
This is only my own experience, but I have written and playtested for
SJGames since GURPS first came out, and I have had nothing but
pleasant experiences doing so. Certainly, SJ is not perfect, and
he perhaps should have vented his spleen off-net.
I also know several freelance authors who have written for SJGames
for 6-8 years running. Sure, there have been minor squables (and
a few major ones), but not enough to make them stop writing for
SJ. I don't know WW, but do they have a similar track record?
--
Brett Slocum "These eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill,
slo...@io.com An it harm none, do what ye will."
Robert Kelly
Stephan Wieck writes:
In several pages, "No comment."
I don't know the true story here. I don't really care anymore.
But I do have my decision.
I will no longer buy from either SJ Games or White Wolf.
Pure and simple. Washing one's dirty laundry in public,
and making a flame war worse than it is, just to get your
cheap shots in, tells me I should quit buying stuff from
SG, WW, Wargames West (mail order), T$R, K. Siembeda and
many others.
Do we see Citizen's Bank of America, Fed-Ex, Mitsubishi,
among others having flame fests like this?
For the record, I'd like to believe someone is telling the truth,
but making a public statement on it would be premature. I do
have favortism here, and I expect someone is lying. I will say
that this is a PR coup for Steve Jackson and it doesn't help
White Wolf's image of "effete snobbery" one bit. Also, image
wise, Jackson already has a "sterling image" due to the
Secret Service scandal and I know that I would never head him
off face to face in the public eye. But then, I knwo the value
of PUBLIC and CUSTOMER relations -- unlike other people.
Can we as gamers and hobbyists expect professionalism from the
companies we purchase? I'd like to think so. Without moralisms.
Without bullshit.
But apparently not.
Pretty sad.
Robert Kelly
rke...@triton.unm.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It stretches more than three thousand miles, so that one end knows day
while the other endures night. Tempreture differences breed shrieking winds
that herd oceans of fog along a canyon four miles deep.
Does the human heart know chasms so abysmal?"
Watchmen
Anthony Ragan
raga...@netcom.com writes:
>Okay, here s my official response to Steve Jackson's message
>concerning the relationship between SJGames and White Wolf.
>
(letter deleted since it's so hard to go over one screen on this
crappy newsreader)
Mr. Wieck's letter takes a lot of space to say nothing. It looks like
nothing but a PR release designed to take an attitude of "wounded
nobility." He completely avoids the specific complaints about
constantly changing guidleines and last-minute disapprovals of
previously-approved drafts. Instead he issues a piece of fluff worthy
of a Senator who's been caught with his pants down by the media.
To answer one of Steve's few specific points (Just ask anyone
who knows either of us, to paraphrase), I do know several people
who write for the rpg industry: those who have worked with SJG have
almost uniformly good things to say about the experience. With those
who have worked with White Wolf, it's almost the opposite.
Be careful what you wish for Mr Wieck, you might actually get it.
--Anthony
ecz...@mvs.oac.ucla.edu -OR- Iris...@aol.com
Rune Chia Pet of Ernalda, Snotling in Chief
Caravan Bug Caravanmaster
Weasel Boy
: Okay, here ’s my official response to Steve Jackson's message
<snip some intro>
: First of all, I would like to offer some defense of my personal
: character, since Steve Jackson chose to attack it in his message. By
: way of defense, I would simply ask that people look around the
: industry and talk to people who have dealt with me personally. Talk
: to distributors, retailers, gamers, or other companies like FASA or
: WOTC and ask them what they think of my character and my sense
: of fairness and honesty. More importantly, you could also talk to
: the people at White Wolf who work for me. Ask them
: confidentially what they honestly think of me.
: I will let that be my character defense.
I'm actually amazed that Steve is saying THIS considering the amount of
backstabbing that goes on in the gaming industry. Sorta like putting a
"Kick Me" sign on one's back to every other person out there. Of course
they tell you they like you to your face. Follow his advice people.
: I cannot help but add the request that you do the same inquiries
: about Steve Jackson. Talk to people whose works he has previously
: licensed for GURPs and see how many of them are happy. Are the
: French creators of In Nomine happy with Steve Jackson? Is Ral
: Partha happy with their business dealings with Steve Jackson? Talk
: to distributors and other people in the industry, talk to his
: employees confidentially.
: Form your own opinions of Steve Jackson and myself. Please don't
: rely on what Mr. Jackson says about me to form your opinions of
: my character or the character the other thirty-five people who work
: at White Wolf, such as Phil Brucato, our Mage Developer who has
: behaved admirably throughout this situation.
Yeah, right. How about when Phil called me up screaming yesterday because
I suggested that Steve Jackson publish GURPS: Mage in electronic
shareware form? I'm entitled to my opinions and suggestions. Phil was
being an ass. Real admirable.
The further I get from White Wolf, the more I see that all the derision
poured on me from the rest of the gaming industry was not unjustified.
People who work for White Wolf are nothing but snotty little
backstabbers, only interested in fleecing the public.
: Second, I would like to comment briefly on the some of the specific
: points in Steve Jackson's message.
: I did not, nor would I ever condemn the character of a former White
: Wolf employee. I did suggest that Steve Jackson take with a grain
: of salt anything he may hear from a former employee who may
: have left with bad feelings towards myself or White Wolf.
: However, the few people who have left or been asked to leave
: White Wolf, I still hold in high regard, no matter what the reason
: they are no longer with White Wolf. I have even put in positive
: words on their behalf when they interviewed with other gaming
: companies (I would say something more here, but I won't. Ask me
: in e-mail).
Yeah, right. This proves what Steve Jackson said is true. If you accuse
someone of being a liar and a thief, then how can you hold them in high
regard? You are a liar, Steve Wieck. Plain and simple.
: Steve Jackson did specifically call me a liar, and yes I did take great
: offense to that and found it to be extremely unprofessional and
: counterproductive to a good business relationship. On top of all the
: other difficulties that we had over our companies' relationship, I
: considered name-calling to be the final signal that ended any chance
: of the relationship being repaired.
Then you must have some idea of how I feel, Steve. Let's see, you hold
people in high regard whom you've called a liar and a thief, but when
someone calls you a name it's the end of the relationship. I get it!
You're a HYPOCRITE!
Not to mention that NOTHING in Steve Jackson's message mentioned anything
like this. I just had to point all this out since you broiught it up. If
you want to say anything more, be a fucking man and call my wife. We're
not worried about the things White Wolf has to say about us -- we've
found that the industry as a whole doesn't believe a damn word you say.
: Finally, I do not want to get into a battle of "who said what" or
: "who did what" over the internet, therefore I will not air White
: Wolf's side of the story on all of these issues, and even if Steve
: Jackson chooses to respond to my message here, I will not be airing
: anymore messages on this subject over the internet for now. Also
: for legal and professional reasons, I have asked the staff at White
: Wolf to confine their statements on this subject to a bare minimum.
Actually, this is probably to avoid embarrassment. You know, the first
thing *I* was taught incollege (and I have a BA in Business Information)
was that the most important thing in business is communication. Both
between the employees and with the customers. All Steve was doing was
telling his side of the story as to why GURPS:Mage wasn't coming out for
a while. You dragged a lot of irrelevent crap into it. The best thing for
you two to do would be to communicate. Of course, with the stuck up
attitudes at WW, I doubt they'll swallow their pride that quickly.
As for the legal connotations, Phil hinted that White Wolf would be ready
to sue ME over my statements on the Net. This only goes to show how
ignorant you people are of the way things work on the Net. This is a
public forum. As Wade Racine says, you should view it in the same way as
people discussing things at a coffeeshop. Everything is everyone's own
opinion, just as this is my opinion. As soon as people are threatened
into silence because of corporate interests, I'll leave this country. We
all have free speech rights.
The issues you've brought up mostly have nothing to do with Steve
Jackson's message. So why do you bring them up? Why not send them in
e-mail? Maybe it's because there's no hope to repair the relationship,
and you're starting to see you made a mistake.
That's all *I* have to say. Except for that this is all my opinion and I'm
entitled to it. Jerks.
Oh. And Phil -- if you want to believe that the IT'S TIME in my .sig is
some nefarious plot, go for it. It actually has nothing to do with
role-playing whatsoever. YHT. YHL. HAND. :-)
--
====================================================================
Darren P. Mckeeman | 'The eagle may soar, but a weasel never gets
Freelance Writer | sucked into a jet engine' -Unknown
IT'S TIME! Ask me for details! Don't get caught short on 09/17!
====================================================================
Anthony Ragan
vam...@wam.umd.edu (Jack Dracula) writes:
>Followers, note:
> Steve Jackson's unprofessional, inflammatory behavior, like a
>kid on a playground, issuing challanges, and trying his damnedest to
>start a flamewar.
> S. Wiecks' behavior: professional, calm. Like the president
>of a company. Also like a mature adult.
>
>Now who seems more reliable? Sure, we all flame from time to time :}.
>But we're not company heads.
> Guess this is just another reason not to buy any Gurps stuff.
>Not that I needed -another- reason, but hey...)
> Jack Dracula
Spoken like a true Fan Boy in Black. Careful, Jack. You're
about to get clove cigarette ashes on your ankh. :)
--Anthony
Joseph Dzikiewicz
>
>Do we see Citizen's Bank of America, Fed-Ex, Mitsubishi,
>among others having flame fests like this?
Methinks you don't listen to some of the sniping between, say, computer
executives. Suffice to say that such sniping is not unique to the RPG
industry.
Jack Dracula
Jim W Lai
and I paraphrase....
[I'm not on speaking terms with SJ in public.]
[I'm sorry this mess was made public. It's bad for business and bad PR.]
[Time for some damage control.]
[Ask people/industry about me and compare with what they say about SJ.
I'm not a liar. I'm sure he doesn't have an unblemished reputation.]
[I don't have anything against many of the staff of SJG.]
[I didn't condemn the character of an ex-employee, but merely cast doubt
on his/her credibility. Regardless of possible antipathy, I respect all my
ex-employees.]
[I consider name-calling to be the last straw in a business relationship.]
[I didn't answer SJ's fax because I told him before I wouldn't answer
because I had no more to say. Someone else was responsible in that area.]
[I won't give the WW side of things, nor will my staff. There are possible
legal/professional repercussions. I won't be drawn into a debate.]
[The relationship between SJG and WW is through if I can help it. Sorry
if you were counting on the translation; you'll have to buy our products.]
>Stephan Wieck
>President
>White Wolf
I've tried not to take too many liberties with the paraphrasing. This
whole deal reeks like a session of Divorce Court. Still, the precipitating
event seems to be a disregard for SJG in your dealings, as far as I can see.
Even a "I don't have anything new to say; see X instead" fax would have
been far more diplomatic that just not answering. Without communication,
how could you expect SJG to know what you were actually (allegedly) thinking?
(For G-d's sake, man, they're Illuminati!) If this was an example of your
customer support and you were a firm I dealt with, I'd switch companies.
I work for a firm which provides products to other firms, and I consider it
important that the customers be satisfied with support. Our customers may
be firms, but they're still customers. SJG was your customer as much as any
RPGer on the street. (I'm sure you didn't go begging to SJG to convert your
material.) I can work professionally with people I may not like. Is that
too much to expect? It's a cruel world out there; one has to be thick-skinned.
I note your shyness with regard to the media. If there had been more private
correspondence in the first place, there might never have been any public
correspondence.
I sincerely hope you don't take the attitude that we are all peons that you
can merely pat on the head and tell to "Go run along and play now." while you
go about your merry way.
GrimJim
1. Not an employee (former or otherwise) of either SJG or WW, or any gaming
company.
2. I speak for myself and no one else.
3. All this in my opinion; I'm hardly omniscient.
4. If I am wrong, prove it to me.
Curtis Shenton
>winni...@aol.com (WinningerR) writes:
>>As for all this "tell us why there's no GURPS Mage, then:" Well, from
>>what's been said, WW has problems with SJG's manuscript. What else can he
>>say? What business do the whys and wherefores have in public?
>
>Because the nature of the purported "problems" makes it obvious that White
>Wolf is dealing in bad faith, and is run by someone who, while quite possibly
>nice in person, seems, professionally at last, to be a lying weasel. That
>has relevance to any other industry professionals (or budding freelancers)
>on line, and a more than casual interest to ethical customers.
I agree 100%! I don't know if I have any sort of "right" to know what's
going on but I want to know. I'm a customer of both companies and was
looking forward to GURPS Mage. First of all I have a certain natural
curiousty as to why something that was supposed to be out is delayed and
second I actually dislike certain business practices. I think consumers
should try and stay as informed as possible. And if you find out a
company is doing something you find reprehensible you should act on that
whether it means writing them letters or just not buying their product.
>--
>--------------------------*-------------------------*------------------------
>Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett | "Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
>--------------------------* sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
>jloc...@hanszen.rice.edu | fuit." -- Seneca | actor and director.
Gregory Deych
: Followers, note:
: Steve Jackson's unprofessional, inflammatory behavior, like a
: kid on a playground, issuing challanges, and trying his damnedest to
: start a flamewar.
and honest. Oh, and speaking of unprofessional: Changing the standards
in the middle of the project is VERY unprofessional, especially if you do
it so with an obvious attempt to disrupt the project. If WW had their
stuff together, they should have communicated their standards to SJG in
the begining of the submission process.
: S. Wiecks' behavior: professional, calm. Like the president
: of a company. Also like a mature adult.
Veeery professional. I especially enjoyed the "No, we are not going to
return your calls because Phil already spent all of 2 hours discussing
this. And sent a letter too! And you still want more????"
I imagine that GURPS Mage is worth something in the low 5 figures in
profit to SJG. It was probably worth something in 4 figures to WW. This
is not pocket-change, folks, and you are expected to follow the business
deals you made to conclusion.
I also found it interesting Wieck's declaration that he is severing the
business ties between WW and SJG. It certainly sounds like he jumped on
a first excuse to do it. I agree with whoever it was that said that WW
has been trying to create a situation that will allow them to terminate
the agreement with SJG.
: Jack Dracula
--
Gregory Deych
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Fast. Good. Cheap. Pick any two - Solomon Short
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Will G. Austin
Jack "Dracula" says:
>Followers, note:
> Steve Jackson's unprofessional, inflammatory behavior, like a
>kid on a playground, issuing challanges, and trying his damnedest to
>start a flamewar.
Granted, SJ could have used a better tone--but then, he sounded to
me like a man dealing with an incredibly frustrating situation. . . . . .
> S. Wiecks' behavior: professional, calm. Like the president
>of a company. Also like a mature adult.
Yes. But, to quote the bard, SW story was "full of sound and fury,
signifying nothing." He didn't even take the chance to score a PR coup
against SJ by offering potential solutions to the problem. The only thing
he did was take the opportunity to sever ties. Very adult, yes; mature, I
don't think so. . . . . .
>Now who seems more reliable?
SJ, actually. I'd trust SW about as much as, say Vlad the Impaler.
. .
> Guess this is just another reason not to buy any Gurps stuff.
That's a pretty piss-poor reason not to by a system. The reason I
don't buy anymore WW products is they're poorly edited and the Storyteller
system I find, IMO, to be worse than AD&D's. WW's corporate arrogance,
laxity, and ease in breaching faith are, irrelevant (although it's nice to
see my gut feelings justified. . .)
--
"Vi veri veniversum vivus vici."
Scott Blade Hamilton
Jack Dracula <vam...@wam.umd.edu> wrote:
>Followers, note:
> Steve Jackson's unprofessional, inflammatory behavior, like a
>kid on a playground, issuing challanges, and trying his damnedest to
>start a flamewar.
> S. Wiecks' behavior: professional, calm. Like the president
>of a company. Also like a mature adult.
>
>Now who seems more reliable? Sure, we all flame from time to time :}.
>But we're not company heads.
Um, you forgot one thing.
S. Wiecks == suit-mentality
S. Jackson == hacker-mentality
Which would you rather deal with?
BTW, it seems that WW has acted unethically, but Im gonna by whatever I
like from both companies and fuck both Steve and Steve. Hail Eris.
--
BLADE-Scott L. Hamilto...@io.com-hamilton@ac.grin.edu-Reality Hacker
TisanillwindthatblowsnomindsDowhatthouwiltshallbethewholeofthelawSecretsdonot
becomeuslestsecretswebecomeBiPrideTheGoddessisaliveandmagickisafootGuerrilaOn
tologyAppliedhedonicsAmentalmindfuckcanbeniceTalkHardMayyoubelikealaserFnord.
Reimer Behrends
Jack Dracula (vam...@wam.umd.edu) wrote:
: Followers, note:
: Steve Jackson's unprofessional, inflammatory behavior, like a
: kid on a playground, issuing challanges, and trying his damnedest to
: start a flamewar.
: S. Wiecks' behavior: professional, calm. Like the president
: of a company. Also like a mature adult.
Sorry, Jack, if only half of what Steve Jackson said is true (and
so far it looks as though it is), then White Wolf deserves the Most
Unethical Behaviour of a Roleplaying Company Award for this year.
Not to mention that it probably did cost SJG a quite lot of money.
No calm behaviour by Mr. Wieck can cover up that. And while I wished
that Steve Jackson had chosen a less inflammatory tone, he seems to
be damn well justified in doing so.
Reimer Behrends
Steve Miller
>From: vam...@wam.umd.edu (Jack Dracula)
>Subject: Re: An Open Letter from Stephan Wieck, President:White Wolf, Inc.
>Followers, note:
> Steve Jackson's unprofessional, inflammatory behavior, like a
>kid on a playground, issuing challanges, and trying his damnedest to
>start a flamewar.
At least Jackson said something. Was there any content in Wiecks letter
except, "I'm a nice guy; just ask anyone who knows me."
> S. Wiecks' behavior: professional, calm. Like the president
>of a company. Also like a mature adult.
No, more like someone writing an empty press-release. Wiecks didn't say
squat. (I suppose that IS sounding like the president of a company, though.)
>Now who seems more reliable?
Jackson. At least he didn't come across as oily. (Again... I'll grant you
the open letter from Wieck WAS more professional and more like a company
president on that level, too.)
> Guess this is just another reason not to buy any Gurps stuff.
>Not that I needed -another- reason, but hey...)
> Jack Dracula
Oh, pooh.
(BTW, I've had limited contact with Steve Jackson, but I personally
liked his prompt and straight-forwardly honest replies. I don't know how WW
handles freelance proposals as I've never approached them, but if the level
of double-speak present in Wieck's open letter is any indication of standard
operating procedure...)
scott david orr
> Steve Jackson's unprofessional, inflammatory behavior, like a
>kid on a playground, issuing challanges, and trying his damnedest to
>start a flamewar.
> S. Wiecks' behavior: professional, calm. Like the president
>of a company. Also like a mature adult.
>
Tone of voice is not a reliable indicator of either maturity or moral
rectitude. If it were, Madison Avenue would be the center of the moral uni-
verise, Dan Rather would be a serious journalist, and Ronald Reagan would have
been a competent administrator. Perhaps you can criticize the way Steve
Jackson expressed himself, but that has no bearing on the merits of his case.
Scott Orr
Bryan J. Maloney
>kid on a playground, issuing challanges, and trying his damnedest to
>start a flamewar.
> S. Wiecks' behavior: professional, calm. Like the president
>of a company. Also like a mature adult.
Steve Jackson's human, honest, forthright behavior, like a regular Joe who's
been fed up with an intolerable situation. Hey, all normal people forget
themselves and vent once in a while.
S Wiecks's behavior: Cold-blooded, PR-driven. Full of doublespeak and
vague statements and innuendo but never actually addresses the issue that
was raised. Is he hiding something?
Remember the rule, folks. Four Usenetters, five opinions and three truths.
--
Bryan Maloney
Bryan J. Maloney
>"who did what" over the internet, therefore I will not air White
>Wolf's side of the story on all of these issues, and even if Steve
>Jackson chooses to respond to my message here, I will not be airing
>anymore messages on this subject over the internet for now. Also
>for legal and professional reasons, I have asked the staff at White
>Wolf to confine their statements on this subject to a bare minimum.
Gee, this is exactly what somebody else predicted WW would say, isn't it?
I'm not surprised, either.
Anyway, as an entire: I expect rampant egoism (on whatever side you
care to point a finger) in any sort of deals among game companies. This
is a business of ego, first and foremost. This is a business where the
"artist" and the "publisher" are very much one and the same (with the
possible exception of TSR). Thus, we should expect ego to rule in the
end.
--
Bryan Maloney
Tor Iver Wilhelmsen
vam...@wam.umd.edu (Jack Dracula) writes:
>Followers, note:
> Steve Jackson's unprofessional, inflammatory behavior, like a
>kid on a playground, issuing challanges, and trying his damnedest to
>start a flamewar.
Steve Jackson's opinion on a company (White Wolf) and a specific
individual in that company, and his views on some difficulties between the
two persons in question. It was in response to a lot of speculation on the
Net about what the causes may be. We all expected a response from White
Wolf, and some of us are not satisfied with what we got.
> S. Wiecks' behavior: professional, calm. Like the president
>of a company. Also like a mature adult.
Mr. Wieck's letter saying "Steve Jackson is a liar, and he's a Bad Person
for giving his opinions in a public forum." He did, if you will notice,
not address the conflict over GURPS: Mage with a single word, or give any
reasons for the delay. So far, it would seem SJG's view is the correct
one, since (in the only official message) it so far has not been denied by
WW.
>Now who seems more reliable? Sure, we all flame from time to time :}.
>But we're not company heads.
No, but some are fanboys and airheads.
> Guess this is just another reason not to buy any Gurps stuff.
>Not that I needed -another- reason, but hey...)
I have first ed. Vampire: The Masquerade. I have GURPS: Vampire. Of the two
products, the latter is the far superior. It has an index, the effects of
Willpower aren't written in two different places, it has a better system
where you don't roll handfuls of dice, and it doesn't have the "We are
redefining Roleplaying as Storytelling" attitude. A lot of my gaming money
go to small companies (such as Tri Tac, Nightfall, Atlas), but the rest
go to SJG, because they make excellent products. Have anyone started
combining Supers and Martial Arts to make an alternative to
You-Know-What WW/Capcom game? :-)
- Tor Iver
--
Tor Iver Wilhelmsen <tor...@pvv.unit.no> CS student at NTH, Trondheim, NO
Info: http://www.pvv.unit.no/~toriver/ Member of The Software Workshop, UNIT
"Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
- Dr. Barry Gehm's corollary to Clarke's law
The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device
Boy) wrote:
> As soon as people are threatened
> into silence because of corporate interests, I'll leave this country.
Hee hee hee. You should have left before you were born, son.
[Note: This post really has nothing to do with Mr. McKeeman's obvious
hard-on for White Wolf, but it was a gem that didn't bear passing up.]
--
D. J. Schaeffer | The Todal looks like a blob of glup.
go...@mcs.com | It makes a sound like rabbits screaming,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ and smells of old, unopened rooms.
-- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_
Sea Wasp
>vam...@wam.umd.edu (Jack Dracula) writes:
>>Followers, note:
>> Steve Jackson's unprofessional, inflammatory behavior, like a
>>kid on a playground, issuing challanges, and trying his damnedest to
>>start a flamewar.
>Steve Jackson's opinion on a company (White Wolf) and a specific
>individual in that company, and his views on some difficulties between the
>two persons in question. It was in response to a lot of speculation on the
>> S. Wiecks' behavior: professional, calm. Like the president
>>of a company. Also like a mature adult.
>reasons for the delay. So far, it would seem SJG's view is the correct
>one, since (in the only official message) it so far has not been denied by
>WW.
>>Now who seems more reliable? Sure, we all flame from time to time :}.
>>But we're not company heads.
>No, but some are fanboys and airheads.
Okay, c'mon, people. Let's look at the *whole* situation.
Up until now, I didn't say anything on the problem; GURPS WW
adaptations always looked pretty snazzy, but since I didn't find the
World of Darkness products my cuppa tea, I didn't pay much attention.
But there's a couple of points that one should consider.
Firstly, if you look at the comments being posted by the
various net.denizens, one thing becomes crystal-clear:
Jackson and Weick are in a Catch-22 when it comes to the Net.
They're damned if they do, and damned if they don't. If they refuse to
make statements or make their situations and opinions known on the
Net, they're being "elitist" or "ignoring us peons" or whatever description
you want to apply.
If they make a careful statement which avoids any discussion of
private business (as did Weick), they're going to be blasted for doubletalk,
avoiding the subject, and smokescreening.
And if, like Steve Jackson, they just write their own opinion,
complete with their feelings on the matter, they're flamed for being
unprofessional, childish, and "airing dirty laundry in public."
MAKE UP YOUR MINDS!
Yes, these are company heads. They are also PEOPLE! Real living
people with the same impulses, feelings, and problems as the rest of
us. Dave Nalle has been on the Net for a long time, so most people
are used to seeing him as just another Net.Denizen more than as "The
Guy Who Puts Out Ysgarth". Steve Jackson and other major RPG figures,
however, are usually seen IN THEIR ROLE AS GAME MAKERS.
People can't entirely divorce themselves from their life-roles,
but on rec.games.frp.* usually those life-roles aren't relevant. In
the case of someone involved in a game company (SJ, SW, Dave Nalle,
Peter Adkison, etc.), this role is SEEN as being much more relevant.
But if you INSIST on perceiving only the life-role, you deny these
people the ability to talk and comment on things in the same way as
the rest of us. That is WRONG. Jackson and Weick have a right to
talk on the Net the same way that the rest of us do, and in my own
PERSONAL opinion, they also shouldn't be judged by any other standard
than the ones applied to the rest of us.
From my own point of view, what White Wolf did was not acceptable
behavior. My site expired Steve Jackson's original letter, so I can't
judge at the moment whether the letter was meant as an official statement
by Steve Jackson Games, or by Steve Jackson who just happens to be a
company president. I *did* get to read Weick's reply, and I am afraid
that, again from my own point of view, it said nothing at all. BUT
that particular letter was also posted as an OFFICIAL communique, and
thus I have to be reluctant to judge it by the same standards that
I'd judge a simple personal posting.
Insofar as judging the companies... that's an even hairier issue.
Virtually everything boils down to hearsay, unless you've had an EXTENSIVE
working relationship with BOTH sides, and know other people in a similar
situation, and can rigorously compare experiences... and then be able
to compare THOSE experiences with the experiences of others in different
companies.
White Wolf *has* had some pretty bad publicity; to a great extent,
however, it seems to come from the super-fanboy types who end up ACTING
like Vampires or what have you. This isn't much different than the
association of AD&D with the "Munchkin" crowd; there's not necessarily
a firm basis there on which to judge the company. White Wolf DOES
sometimes have some pretty pompous puff-pieces in its game literature,
but that's not unusual. It may be a bit more extreme, but you'll find
similar self-congratulatory backslapping in a LOT of RPGs.
In conclusion... remember: game-company owners are still people.
They're still entitled to post IN THE SAME WAY THAT WE DO... and it is
NOT polite, or fair, of us to hold them to some different standard
just because they have an unusual job. UNLESS they are openly and
explicitly (as opposed to implicit or assumed) giving their company's
party line. In THOSE cases, however, we have to remember the requirements
of such OFFICIAL statements, and not judge them by the same standards
as ordinary postings -- especially when it comes to the content of the
statements. Official statements often HAVE to avoid specifics on certain
subjects; unofficial statements have more leeway.
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Christopher Lee Cavender
Anthony Ragan <ecz...@mvs.oac.ucla.edu> wrote:
>In article <31rot2$i...@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu>,
>vam...@wam.umd.edu (Jack Dracula) writes:
>
>about to get clove cigarette ashes on your ankh. :)
>--Anthony
>
It's turned into people that don't like WW saying "Oh, that's it, I'm never
going to buy any WW stuff now!" And people that don't like SJG saying "Right!
No more GURPS for me!" Man, what a lot of Pointless posturing. Btw, whats
with the clove cigarette stuff?
Chris
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Your right. | "Repent Harlequin!" Said the Ticktockman |
| But. |------------------------------------------|
| No one cares. | Can you say "Genevieve Felice Marshall"? |
Philip Masters
vam...@wam.umd.edu "Jack Dracula" writes:
> Followers, note:
> Steve Jackson's unprofessional, inflammatory behavior, like a
> kid on a playground, issuing challanges, and trying his damnedest to
> start a flamewar.
> S. Wiecks' behavior: professional, calm. Like the president
> of a company. Also like a mature adult.
Actually, they both struck me as adopting mannerisms that are commonplace
in face-to-face arguments that have reached this level. Steve Jackson
explains his position at length, with more passion than makes for fully
effective rhetoric, less organisation than I'd expect from him, and to
be honest, a certain amount of bluster.
Steve Wieck chooses a style that certainly looks more calm, considered,
and rational (and which frankly rates a bit higher for smarts). But to
me, it had that tone you get from people who've got into a screaming,
horrible row with someone else, then realised that this makes them
look a bit silly (and screaming is bad for the throat). So it's all
stiff formality and "I don't want to say more than I have to" - with
the subtext of "Look how grown-up I am, not like that nasty bad boy".
The useful corrollary being that the person adopting this pose doesn't
have to *explain* anything, however weak or strong this case.
And in fact, when things have reached this stage in live-action rows,
most people don't pay too much heed to what either party is saying -
they just hide the sharp instruments and block the path to the lawyer's
door. Which may become necessary round here soon...
--
Phil Masters
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
None learned the art of archery from me | Useless is a wonderful milk-yield
Who did not make me, in the end, | From a cow which kicks the pail over
the target | - Hadrat Muinudin Chishti
- Saadi of Shiraz |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device
wrote:
> Jack Dracula (vam...@wam.umd.edu) wrote:
> : Followers, note:
> : Steve Jackson's unprofessional, inflammatory behavior, like a
> : kid on a playground, issuing challanges, and trying his damnedest to
> : start a flamewar.
> I guess what you call unprofessional and inflammatory, I call forthright
> and honest. Oh, and speaking of unprofessional: Changing the standards
> in the middle of the project is VERY unprofessional, especially if you do
> it so with an obvious attempt to disrupt the project. If WW had their
> stuff together, they should have communicated their standards to SJG in
> the begining of the submission process.
It may or may not have been "forthright and honest," but airing it in
public on the net was unprofessional. (And the reactions in this thread
show how inflammatory it has been.)
As for changing standards in the middle of the project, that is the SJG
spin. We don't know what really happened, how "standards" were initially
set, etc. And there's no reason we SHOULD know any of that -- it's a
private business matter between WW and SJG. If there are irreconcilable
differences and the companies want to end their relationship, they should
do so and issue a joint release, rather than each trying to point the
finger at the other. (So far, the only finger-pointing about the
companies' relationship that I'm aware of is SJG's. Wieck's comments were
addressed to the personal nature of SJG's flame.)
> : S. Wiecks' behavior: professional, calm. Like the president
> : of a company. Also like a mature adult.
> Veeery professional. I especially enjoyed the "No, we are not going to
> return your calls because Phil already spent all of 2 hours discussing
> this. And sent a letter too! And you still want more????"
Well, that's your spin on what Wieck said. In fact, what he said was that,
for whatever reason, WW felt that it had communicated its issues
sufficiently to SJG, and further rehashing of the same matters would not be
useful. Whether the communication that had taken place *was* or was *not*
sufficient is a matter of opinion, and you and I can't make any judgments
about that because we weren't there. You apparently have taken SJG's view
to heart; but that doesn't mean that Wieck's posting was unprofessional.
> I imagine that GURPS Mage is worth something in the low 5 figures in
> profit to SJG. It was probably worth something in 4 figures to WW. This
> is not pocket-change, folks, and you are expected to follow the business
> deals you made to conclusion.
>
> I also found it interesting Wieck's declaration that he is severing the
> business ties between WW and SJG. It certainly sounds like he jumped on
> a first excuse to do it. I agree with whoever it was that said that WW
> has been trying to create a situation that will allow them to terminate
> the agreement with SJG.
Why do you agree with that? What is the basis for your belief? I saw
nothing in Wieck's post to indicate that WW had been itching for a chance
to break with SJG. It may be true, but I don't see it from here.
christopher charles bickford
The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device <go...@mcs.com> wrote:
>In article <curtissC...@netcom.com>, cur...@netcom.com (Curtis
>Shenton) wrote:
>> And I for one have no desire to buy the products of a company which acts
>> in bad faith with a business partner. I always like to wait to hear both
>> sides of the story before I make any judgements. But both sides of this
>> dispute have had a chance to post their statements and positions and WW
>> chose not to defend it's actions with any concrete reasons. Until I hear
>> convincing evidence that Steve Jackson is lying has misrepresented what
>> happneed between WW and SJG then in my mind WW is a company I don't want
>> to give a dime to.
>
>But you don't mind giving your money to a company that publicly airs a
>business dispute in a forum like this, where it is basically none of
>anybody's business but the parties to the business arrangement? In my
>mind, at least, it is entirely unprofessional to take a private business
>dispute -- especially one over apparently "creative differences" -- and lay
>out one side in a widespread public forum. I am highly disappointed in
>Steve Jackson Games; I would have thought, given their past experience,
>that they would underestand how damaging computer-network misuse and
>misunderstandings can be.
Except for the fact the SJG had taken quite a bit of heat
from people wanting to get their hands on GURPS:Mage. A
mitigating factor, somewhat.
--
Chris Bickford | This is more than Chemistry 101 man.
Cbic...@ucs.indiana.edu | - Tetsuo Shima
Gary Mengle
Gee, do we even need to wonder what side your bread is buttered
on?
Frankly I'm sick of White Wolf's poposity, bad attitude,
cretinous fans and lack of character. I suggest that people
follow Wiacek's suggestion and ask people in the gaming industry
about Steve Jackson and Steve Wiacek.
--
________________________________________________________
Gary N. Mengle ek...@cleveland.freenet.edu
iron...@aol.com
________________________________________________________
Steffan O'Sullivan
>
>after dealing with him as a freelance writer since 1987, I can honestly
>say that Steve Jackson has gone out of his way to be not only nice to
>me, but super.
Make that since 1986. Sorry to get it wrong - it'll happen to you when
you get my age, too . . .
>I had a contract with SJG to write GURPS Faerie.
This was before WW Faerie, BTW, and before they had ever announced the
intention of doing such a book. This was not a copy-cat idea, but very
original at the time - no one had done such a book as of then.
>GURPS B&B came
>out about a year later, and is, I believe, my best book. Even Dennis
>Sustare praised it highly, after admitting to me on the phone he was
>very nervous about licensing his baby to an unknown writer. I don't
>blame him!
BTW, this also shows that at least one previous licenser was very happy
with SJG's treatment of licensed material. This was a nearly identical
situation: a license of a game previously published with a different
game mechanic system. While SJ said no one from Atlanta congratulated
him when GURPS Vampire won an award, Dennis Sustare, OTOH, called me on
his own money and congratulated and praised me on a job well done, even
though the book won no award. (Sniff.) This definitely shows class on
Dennis' part. I don't know Mr. Wieck, so I can't say if has any class
or not, but not congratulating SJG on GURPS Vampire doesn't speak well
for his character to me.
>But if you ever ask me about his character, I'll remember that I broke
>a contract with him, and he didn't blow up. Instead he went out of his
>way to get me a license I wanted. If he blew up at Mr. Wieck, I'll
>frankly believe that Mr. Wieck was behaving worse than I was - which
>was pretty bad. I was definitely the bad guy in our scenario, and yet
>SJ didn't flame me, even in private.
And I feel the need to add a disclaimer, in case folks suspect me of
mere ass-kissing: I'm not working on any SJG project, nor are there any
in the planning stages. In fact, I have plans to write a book for
another company (Wild Mule Games, publishers of FUDGE), and may or may
not ever write for SJG in the future. This post was not an attempt to
ingratiate myself with SJ (I have nothing to gain from him), but simply
posted out of gratitude for eight years of good relations, including a
time when I frankly didn't deserve it.
--
-Steffan O'Sullivan s...@oz.plymouth.edu Plymouth, NH
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Everything is vague to a degree you do not realize till you
have tried to make it precise. -Bertrand Russell
Gary Mengle
That answered nothing. In fact, it did little but attempt to
slur Steve Jackson, who in fact has one of the best reputations
for integrity in the gaming industry, and to dismiss his comments
as those of a vengeful flake.
I cannot honestly say that this will stop me from buying White
Wolf products--I don't buy them now and never planned to again
anyway. Thankfully I can still support Ars Magica with a clean
conscience. What I will do, however, is to inform the local
gaming community of this scandal, and encourage them never to
buy a White Wolf product.
Jamison Graff
>dispute in a public forum, in a manner designed to inflame public opinion
>against your opposite, is unprofessional.
>
In this very interesting instance of a product created by a pair of
companies, consumers were expressing discontent with delayed delivery
of the promised product. Someone was going to suffer loss of goodwill as
a result. SJ, whether speaking truthfully or no, influenced effectively
the direction in which public unhappiness would be diverted. Instead of
complaining that SJ is behind schedule, people are now demanding that WW
explain themselves. SJ's behavior seems to have been effective, beneficial
to his company, and in that sense quite professional. White Wolf's response
to date either assumes that customers are apathetic to SJ's charges, or
that their market position is so strong they needn't pander to customers.
That's their managerial discretion, and perhaps they are right. They're
certainly not flattering their customers with their public action, however.
Jamison Graff
jtg...@nwu.edu
Damn, I guess I have to stop smoking my Mint Bidis now?
--
Jamison Graff
Dept. of Industrial Engineering & Management Science
Northwestern University, Evanston, Illinois
jtg...@nwu.edu, jam...@merle.acns.nwu.edu
Brian Phillips
jam...@merle.acns.nwu.edu (Jamison Graff) writes:
>It's not just any business partner, it's a gamer's gaming company, part of
>the thin fringe of creative thinking standing between us and TSR. Frankly,
>this sort of within-coalition fighting is a total loss situation, and nobody
>benefits here but the Company whose products _won't_ be seeing any new
>competition from this alliance. What a shame that people either weren't
>more cooperative or didn't have better lawyers.
I really wasn't under the impression that the SJG-WW deal was part of an
alliance or coalition to break TSR's "control" of the hobby. I thought it
was a pretty kool business deal on the part of two companies that have
different core customers who felt they could make a little money by
producing Multi-Platform versions of the same background (I forget who used
that first, but it fits).
I don't think some mythical war with TSR had anything to do with Jackson
and Wieck's decisions when the deal was cut. If that were the motivation,
then both SJG and WW are under misguided leadership - and I think both
companies currently have pretty clear, thought out, strong visions of
where they want to go.
The best way to fight TSR is to sell products to TSR's customers that are
better quality and lure the TSR customer to new game systems. I don't think
this was the intention of the SJG-WW deal. They weren't trying to target
TSR's AD&D players with the WoD GURPS thing. They were doing a you-scratch-
my-back-i'll-scratch-yours thing where GURPS folks and others who are
attracted to WoD but don't like the system could play in the background
while White Wolf would probably pick up a few sales on supplements to these
non-Storyteller folks who want more (also, WW would get revenue it wouldn't
have gotten before through the licence fee).
At this stage in the game, the only way the smaller companies have a chance
of reaching TSR's stature and power in the industry is to come up with some
kickin' runaway hits that not only appeal to current hobbyists but which
pull in hordes of new players into the industry (hmm, sounds like what the
StreetFighter games is suppossed to do [maybe it will and maybe it won't
though] or what M:TG has been doing to some extent). Or . . . smaller
successful companies can pool their resources by merging into larger companies.
The SJG-WW, SJG-WotC, SJG-Chaosium and other similar deals are really only
partial moves in that direction (the companies involved must still limit the
nature of their cooperation so that they don't end up selling part of their
future market share [I assume that's why Stephan Wieck ended his letter
with an "apology" to the fans that GURPS Mage probably won't ever come out
so folks should go ahead and just buy the originals - and why the GURPS
ChthulhuPunk book deals in an exploration of the genre that Chaosium would
probably never get around to - under full mergers one no longer has
to worry about such things). In point of fact, all game companies are
to a certain extent competitors and so they try to protect their turf -
one way is through market segmentation so that the WW WoD players are
conditioned to want a certain style of game and to play a certain way, the
Ysgarth player learns to want something else, and the Over the Edge player
goes still another direction, while the AD&D player is given a different
"official" orientation on how to play the game and the Paranoia or Ghostbusters
games stand in as "occassional breaks" from the tension and tone of a gaming
group's "serious" or "real" campaigns.
I doubt that the folks at most of the more successful medium and
smaller game companies really perceive TSR has having a stranglehold on the
hobby. Their games and styles are different and so they try to appeal to
a different market segment. Oh sure, they're happy to take AD&D players
into their fold, but I doubt if they really begrudge TSR its market share.
Rather than fighting to tear down TSR, I think most of the healthy companies
are trying to build up their own share. That means attracting folks to their
products through dazzle, razzmatazz, quality control, interesting and playable
systems, film and literary licensing, the occassional Macho Babe on
the cover (or not, depending upon the target market), and bringing new players
into the hobby [this last point seems to be a bit tricky for a lot of companies
though - it seems to me that very few RPG companies actually work much on
bringing in new players other than TSR and its toy store games and the First
Quest stuff - most RPG companies only advertise in gaming magazines read by
folks who are already gamers and go to conventions that are for gaming
companies - too many companies forget the last strategy and instead wait for
TSR's players to move on to their systems [switching segments as their gaming
needs change - never fear since TSR's the most aggressive company out there,
they ALWAYS make up for attrition through new customers, they're good at what
they do {both marketing and design for their target market}] - I'd like to
see more mass advertising for games and for fewer companies to rely on word
of mouth to attract new customers to the hobby (remember the old D&D ads in
the back of Marvel comics, or the Paranoia comic book) - oh, but I've
slipped into rambling mode, my my. :-)
Personally, I hope that the differences between SJG and WW can be resolved
and that the rest of the deal can go on.
>Jamison Graff
>jtg...@nwu.edu
Peace,
Brian David Phillips nccu...@twnmoe10.edu.tw
Meiguo Langren Zai Taibei (An American Werewolf in Taipei)
Bill Oliver
>public on the net was unprofessional. (And the reactions in this thread
>show how inflammatory it has been.)
>
Perhaps I have been hanging around Washington too much, but
whether or not this exchange is "unprofessional" is a function
of whether or not it acheives a desired goal, not whether or
not people in other areas of achievement find it aesthetically
pleasing.
For instance, let's say you were a political professional working
in a region where the dominant party had the ability to actually
go out and give people cash on the street to go and cast a vote.
This cash-for-votes policy was justified by various rationalizations,
but the bottom line was that it benefits your opposition more
than it benefits you. You could not, however, simply go out
and complain about it, because it was an accepted practice and
complaining about it would just make you seem more politically
incorrect than you already are.
What to do? Well, you go out and let "slip" in a half-serious
manner that **you** have been giving people in the opposing
party cash to help *stop* people from going to the polls. Now,
there is a furious outcry and giving people cash for political
action is suddenly a bad thing again. People accuse you of all
sorts of things, the opposing party senses blood and makes as
big a stink about it as possible. It hits the the headlines.
Now that it is a scandal, you sit back and go "Hey, it was a
joke. I just wanted to irritate people." Everyone says -- "Jeez,
what an idiot. How unprofessional. How could someone so
politically savvy make such a stupid gaffe?"
The opposing political party, still sensing blood, insists that
you were telling the truth the first time, and that your retraction
is a fake. However, because this was in cash, there is no paper
trail, and they can't go in for the kill. The opposing party
continues to make hay, however, claiming that such cash contributions
are evil. Your party then introduces legislation outlawing
cash payment for political purposes, so such problems cannot
arise in the future. Your opposition is hamstrung
because they have been in the news for the past month decrying
cash contributions, and end up voting for a bill that will outlaw,
among other things, giving people cash to go to the polls.
Thus, by making a "stupid," "unprofessional" mistake, you have
caused the opposing party to pass a law shooting itself in the foot.
Unprofessional? Hmm....
The moral of the story -- Wait until the fat lady sings before
calling folk unprofessional, unless you are pretty confident about
the business.
billo
Mikko Kurki-Suonio
>
> Stephan Wieck writes:
> In several pages, "No comment."
>
> I don't know the true story here. I don't really care anymore.
> But I do have my decision.
>
> I will no longer buy from either SJ Games or White Wolf.
>
> Pure and simple. Washing one's dirty laundry in public,
> and making a flame war worse than it is, just to get your
> cheap shots in, tells me I should quit buying stuff from
> SG, WW, Wargames West (mail order), T$R, K. Siembeda and
> many others.
>
> Do we see Citizen's Bank of America, Fed-Ex, Mitsubishi,
> among others having flame fests like this?
I'd like to add some commentary here.
Steve Jackson responded to people asking why GURPS Mage was delayed. I
believe he posted his sincere point of view for the public benefit.
Could you please tell me what action SJ could have taken that would not
have offended you:
- Remain silent?
- Tell a lie ("It's not ready yet... blah blah)
- Make a non-informative comment ("Due to to contractual
dispute, GURPS Mage will
not be out for quite some
time...")
Do you really think one of the above would have been better than coming
out with one's honest opinion?
Btw: Big corps don't do it because they don't believe in letting people
know what's really going on.
--------
max...@swob.nullnet.fi (Mikko Kurki-Suonio) | A pig who doesn't fly
Voice +358 0 8092681 | is just an ordinary pig.
Sweet Oblivion (+358 0 8092678, V.32bis 8N1) | - Porco Rosso
SnailMail: Maininkitie 8A8 SF 02320 ESPOO FINLAND |
Charles Staley
: In article <ragabashC...@netcom.com>,
: raga...@netcom.com writes:
: >Okay, here s my official response to Steve Jackson's message
: >concerning the relationship between SJGames and White Wolf.
: >
: (letter deleted since it's so hard to go over one screen on this
: crappy newsreader)
: Mr. Wieck's letter takes a lot of space to say nothing. It looks like
: nothing but a PR release designed to take an attitude of "wounded
: nobility." He completely avoids the specific complaints about
: constantly changing guidleines and last-minute disapprovals of
: previously-approved drafts. Instead he issues a piece of fluff worthy
: of a Senator who's been caught with his pants down by the media.
: To answer one of Steve's few specific points (Just ask anyone
: who knows either of us, to paraphrase), I do know several people
: who write for the rpg industry: those who have worked with SJG have
: almost uniformly good things to say about the experience. With those
: who have worked with White Wolf, it's almost the opposite.
: Be careful what you wish for Mr Wieck, you might actually get it.
A number of months ago, my company solicted to a number of gaming
compines, a software idea we thought would fit the industry nicely and
the current trend of computer growth in the world. We were barely
acknowlegded by most gaming companies, White Wolf included. A few hours
after we had called and spoken to a representative at Steve Jackson games
(a name that I can't recall at this late hour and mental state.....) Steve
Jackson himself called us to discuss the ideas we had, and his enthusiasm
and support for our ideas was fantastic. Our project isn't done, but I
will forever be impressed with the response we received from Steve Jackson
and his company.
Avatar
Jamison Graff
Brian Phillips <NCCU...@TWNMOE10.Edu.TW> wrote:
>In article <320v34$l...@news.acns.nwu.edu>
>jam...@merle.acns.nwu.edu (Jamison Graff) writes:
>
>>It's not just any business partner, it's a gamer's gaming company, part of
>>the thin fringe of creative thinking standing between us and TSR. Frankly,
>
>better quality and lure the TSR customer to new game systems. I don't think
If noone is in business, then noone is stealing customers. Maintaining
volume, introducing new products, remaining a healthy small business instead
of a struggling small business -- all things which must be done to stay
alive. How many creative, high-quality gaming companies do you suppose have
risen and fallen? I'm guessing high, maybe you guess low. Both SJG and WW
(hell, TSR, really) have beaten the odds by becoming recognizable and even
stable entities.
>this was the intention of the SJG-WW deal. They weren't trying to target
>TSR's AD&D players with the WoD GURPS thing. They were doing a you-scratch-
Again, stealing AD&D players may be strategically important, but those aren't
the only revenue sources in the world. The point is that the Big Boy has
revenue, and if you don't, it really doesn't matter whether he broke you, and
it doesn't matter whether or not you thought it was a David and Goliath
struggle. If only one is left standing, that's all she wrote.
>though] or what M:TG has been doing to some extent). Or . . . smaller
>successful companies can pool their resources by merging into larger companies.
That answer is interesting, but you won't have to think long to realize its
flaws. First, entrepeneurs are headstrong, and don't tend to be good at
subordinating their own power of discretion for the sake of management
policy. Second, the firm as an organizational medium is notably poor at
managing entrepeneurial concerns. A recent and fairly well-publicized
example was Kraft's purchase and resale of Celestial Seasonings. Kraft
reasoned that CS was a hot, successful little food business; Kraft could
bring them into the fold, run them the way they were run before, and everyone
would benefit. Sadly, things don't work that way, and CS crumbled under
corporate supervision.
>The SJG-WW, SJG-WotC, SJG-Chaosium and other similar deals are really only
>partial moves in that direction (the companies involved must still limit the
Yes, that's exactly what they are in my opinion as well. They are independent
firms with discretion-intensive activities not well-suited to routinization
under a corporate schema; by allying themselves cooperatively they are able
to strengthen their market presence without compromising the entrepeneurial
spirits of the individual firms. A similar model is offered by textile firms
in northern Italy; numerous examples can be found in Joseph Pine's book
"Mass Customization", an interesting read, even if Tom Peters does
recommend it.
>probably never get around to - under full mergers one no longer has
>to worry about such things). In point of fact, all game companies are
Unfortunately, the introduction of managerial fiat necessary to make such
things worriless has side effects which large firms are in general trying
to escape.
>I doubt that the folks at most of the more successful medium and
>smaller game companies really perceive TSR has having a stranglehold on the
>hobby. Their games and styles are different and so they try to appeal to
I would like to hear from Mayfair about that assertion.
>a different market segment. Oh sure, they're happy to take AD&D players
>into their fold, but I doubt if they really begrudge TSR its market share.
It's not market share that bothers one, it's market power.
One of the interesting things the "Koalition auf Zeit" achieved was the
ability to sell essentially two of the same book to a number of us. Now
_that's_ a marketing trick TSR would like to pull off, I'm sure.
>
>Personally, I hope that the differences between SJG and WW can be resolved
>and that the rest of the deal can go on.
Like I've said, GURPS Mage isn't an exciting proposition to me, but the
willingness of the small game companies to cooperate more than competition
might warrant is very much so. I think there was a lot of potential there
for WW to concentrate on their strengths - story - and GURPS on theirs -
playable mechanics. Sort of the way tire manufacturers don't make auto
bodies, ya know?
Jamison Graff
jtg...@nwu.edu
Doing my best Harry Erwin impersonation?
Charles Staley
: Followers, note:
: Steve Jackson's unprofessional, inflammatory behavior, like a
: kid on a playground, issuing challanges, and trying his damnedest to
: start a flamewar.
: of a company. Also like a mature adult.
: Now who seems more reliable? Sure, we all flame from time to time :}.
: But we're not company heads.
: Guess this is just another reason not to buy any Gurps stuff.
: Not that I needed -another- reason, but hey...)
: Jack Dracula
Yes and he sooooooo professionally ignored all of the issues raised by
Steve Jackson. He was calm, but he also said next to nothing in his post
aside from "I'm a nice guy. Buy my products." If there is enough of an
issue here for Steve Jackson to be making a post as he did, perhaps its
time for White Wolf to get their noses out of the air long enough to
explain things from their side of the story. Stating that Mr. Jackson is
just calling names and then skirting the issues with a bunch of Whitewash
seems a fatal step for a company liek White Wolf that seems to have a
large part of the gaming community annoyed with their products......
Avatar
Steffan O'Sullivan
>
>I cannot help but add the request that you do the same inquiries
>about Steve Jackson. Talk to people whose works he has previously
>licensed for GURPs and see how many of them are happy. Are the
>French creators of In Nomine happy with Steve Jackson? Is Ral
>Partha happy with their business dealings with Steve Jackson? Talk
>to distributors and other people in the industry, talk to his
>employees confidentially.
>Stephan Wieck
>President
>White Wolf
I'll happily discuss SJ's character, especially now while he's out of
the country. :-)
Steve is human, of course, and so has his bad points. Nonetheless,
after dealing with him as a freelance writer since 1987, I can honestly
say that Steve Jackson has gone out of his way to be not only nice to
me, but super.
I had a contract with SJG to write GURPS Faerie. I worked on it for
over a year, and came to the conclusion that what was in my contract
was not what I wanted to write. I talked to Steve, and he wasn't
willing to change what he wanted. Fair enough, he had his vision of
GURPS Faerie (the version in the contract) but mine had changed. So I
asked to break the contract. Steve said okay, could he buy my research
and turn it over to another writer who would write the rules the way SJ
wanted them? I said no, I didn't want to do that. I'd rather publish
it generic my way than see my research (which was intensive and
extensive) be used to publish a product I could not support.
Steve didn't yell at me. He didn't flame me. He didn't try to pull
legal blather about owning what I had written since I wrote it under
contract. Instead he sighed, and said, "All right, then: what *do* you
want to write that we can agree on?"
I said the thing I most wanted to do wasn't possible: GURPS Bunnies &
Burrows. Steve had already tried twice in the previous three years to
get the license for this, but been turned down. To my surprise, he
said, "Okay, I'll try again." Later that week I got a call from Steve
saying, "It's a go! Dennis Sustare agreed to do it!" GURPS B&B came
out about a year later, and is, I believe, my best book. Even Dennis
Sustare praised it highly, after admitting to me on the phone he was
very nervous about licensing his baby to an unknown writer. I don't
blame him!
Yes, Steve Jackson can have a temper. Yes, he can mutter angrily about
someone not in the room, and chew them out quite nicely to their
faces. I imagine he's been working on In Nomine every night before his
current trip to Finland, trying to get as much done as possible, and
getting by on three hours sleep. He does that - he works as hard as
anyone in the industry, and harder than most. So when this phone call
with Mr. Wieck went very poorly after months of frustration, I can see
him lashing out in a flame to the net.
But if you ever ask me about his character, I'll remember that I broke
a contract with him, and he didn't blow up. Instead he went out of his
way to get me a license I wanted. If he blew up at Mr. Wieck, I'll
frankly believe that Mr. Wieck was behaving worse than I was - which
was pretty bad. I was definitely the bad guy in our scenario, and yet
SJ didn't flame me, even in private.
So I'm glad Mr. Wieck publically asked for notes on SJ's character from
those who have had dealings with him. Frankly, I don't know too many
people in the industry who would have behaved toward me with half the
class and restraint that SJ showed.
Jamison Graff
Curtis Shenton <cur...@netcom.com> wrote:
>And I for one have no desire to buy the products of a company which acts
>in bad faith with a business partner. I always like to wait to hear both
It's not just any business partner, it's a gamer's gaming company, part of
the thin fringe of creative thinking standing between us and TSR. Frankly,
this sort of within-coalition fighting is a total loss situation, and nobody
benefits here but the Company whose products _won't_ be seeing any new
competition from this alliance. What a shame that people either weren't
more cooperative or didn't have better lawyers.
Jamison Graff
jtg...@nwu.edu
Jamison Graff
>
>Do we see Citizen's Bank of America, Fed-Ex, Mitsubishi,
>among others having flame fests like this?
>
>Can we as gamers and hobbyists expect professionalism from the
>companies we purchase? I'd like to think so. Without moralisms.
>Without bullshit.
>
This is actually what makes this all so disappointing, from my point of
view as a buyer of both companies' works. The "imporsonalization" of
large firms has some advantages. A contract dispute between firms whose
managers and lawyers know they're acting as part of the machine gets
handled by the machine. Small companies, whose heads identify strongly
with the firm, don't have the grease of diffused identity to smooth these
problems over. The problem between these two companies has sadly and
publicly turned into a problem between the heads of those companies. Where
a large firm might have professional negotiators, facilitators, and
communications consultants wandering around to smooth ruffled feathers,
the Steve on Steve match isn't likely to end unless some good fairy gives
them both a stiff drink and takes them to a golf course somewhere.
Jamison Graff
Christopher Lee Cavender <cxc...@hertz.njit.edu> wrote:
>
>
>It's turned into people that don't like WW saying "Oh, that's it, I'm never
>going to buy any WW stuff now!" And people that don't like SJG saying "Right!
>No more GURPS for me!" Man, what a lot of Pointless posturing. Btw, whats
>with the clove cigarette stuff?
>
> Chris
As someone who really likes both companies' products, it would really hurt
me to decide to boycott either side. But I don't hold it against SJ that he
says what he thinks is going on, even if the form of the letter surprised me.
Of course, everything ever written about e-mail warns that e-mail letters
get "hot" a lot more often than snail-mail.
Similarly, while the corporate-liners may protest that the contract is
none of my business, it is indeed so; no company subjected to a consumer
boycott has ever admitted that consumers should worry about their "private"
labor contracts, sources of supply, etc. But when there is reason to
believe that people I do business with -- and that's what happens when I buy
a White Wolf product, whoever is handling the distribution -- is doing
business in a way I would consider unethical, I want to know what's going on.
If I have to act on my own best judgement now, my WW collection will stand
pat at about 28 books. If that suggests that I'm not a customer they want,
then I guess I'm not a customer they will keep. If they value the concerns
of their customers, perhaps they will have to explain their action. Unlike
Microsoft, they don't have monopolistic power to deny me a viable alternative
to their products - they will have to answer questions or lose me.
Incomplete contracting is difficult, and it's never easy to capture in
words the intended spirit of the agreement. But the boilerplate and the
arbitrations are for when things go wrong -- the point is for people to
act cooperatively and make things go right. The rest is just there to
ensure credible commitments, which evidently weren't ensured in this case.
Sue and Sean
licensed from) has come up, let me say that I have first-hand knowledge
that Verna Smith Trestrail, daughter of E.E. "Doc" Smith and licensor of
her father's Lensman series, was very pleased with every aspect of the
--
Susan and Sean (order optional) That which does not kill me
S & S Enterprises often hurts a whole lot.
sa...@netcom.com
scott david orr
>
>Did any of that heat come from public pronouncements by White Wolf? See,
>if SJG is concerned that people on the net are bitching at SJG about GURPS
>Mage being delayed, and wants to say "It's not our fault," it is very
>simple to say "We are having difficulties with our agreement with White
>Wolf." Sure, people will want to know what the problems are, and whose
>fault it is, but it's really not the public's business. As a professional,
>you say "Look, we're sorry you're upset about the delay. We'll do what we
>can." If the issues between SJG and WW couldn't be resolved, then the two
>companies should have issued a joint statement saying so, and apologizing
>to their customers. I understand that the gaming industry is largely
>ego-driven, so such a joint action would be difficult to agree on...but it
>would have been far more professional and businesslike.
>
>--
I disagree rather strongly. I think it's quite important to know whether a
game company is prone to live up to its commitments. When I buy a product,
I want to know if the company's going to support it. I want to know that, if
a company says a supplement is gong to be put out, that, barring extraordinary
circumstances, it's going to be put out. And so I'm very interseted in finding
out whether a game company stands by its agreements.
Scott Orr
Bryan M Bowen
<some parts of Avatar's post deleted for brevity>
>explain things from their side of the story. Stating that Mr. Jackson is
>just calling names and then skirting the issues with a bunch of Whitewash
>seems a fatal step for a company liek White Wolf that seems to have a
>large part of the gaming community annoyed with their products......
>
>
>Avatar
>
Who comprises this "large part of the gaming community annoyed with
their [White Wolf Gaming Studio's] products?
I both run and play in WW WoD campaigns, and all the people I game
with *love* White Wolf's stuff. They (and I) believe that the ST system
allows and encourages both players and ST's to go beyond the all-too-
common combat orientation of RPG's and get into some real role-playing.
Not to say that combat doesn't have its place....
My friends and I believe that WW products show a lot of vision, even
though the editing leaves something to be desired. ;) However, check out
Werewolf 2nd Edition for a well-edited WW product.
I was disappointed to see a public airing of the dirty laundry between
SJG and WW, but it won't change my buying habits. (It's not like they're
killing millions of innocent sweatshop workers or chopping down the rain
forests)
Business relationships sour. Look at the CBS/QVC merger attempt. I'll
still watch CBS, even though they don't carry football anymore. ;)
Besides, *none of us know what really happened*! All we have is the
statement of Steve Jackson, and the response by Steve Wieck. Both of these
statements are intended for public distribution and consumption, and
therefore probably have little of the real cause for the disagreement.
"The Two Steves" have gone beyond arguing about the business contract, and
are now arguing over which of them has less personal integrity. :P
This post is *not* intended as a flame to Avatar!
Bryan Bowen
bbo...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
"God is a bullet"--Concrete Blonde
James Nicoll
Jamison Graff <jam...@merle.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:
>In article <curtissC...@netcom.com>,
>Curtis Shenton <cur...@netcom.com> wrote:
>
>>And I for one have no desire to buy the products of a company which acts
>>in bad faith with a business partner. I always like to wait to hear both
>
>It's not just any business partner, it's a gamer's gaming company, part of
>the thin fringe of creative thinking standing between us and TSR.
Heh. Of course, TSR's market share has nothing to do with gamers'
tastes in games: it's a CONSIRACY by the suits of TSR that people choose
to buy TSR products.
James Nicoll
Philip Masters
NCCU...@TWNMOE10.Edu.TW "Brian Phillips" writes:
> I really wasn't under the impression that the SJG-WW deal was part of an
> alliance or coalition to break TSR's "control" of the hobby.
> ...
> The best way to fight TSR is to sell products to TSR's customers that are
> better quality and lure the TSR customer to new game systems. I don't think
> this was the intention of the SJG-WW deal.
> ...
> At this stage in the game, the only way the smaller companies have a chance
> of reaching TSR's stature and power in the industry is to come up with some
> kickin' runaway hits that not only appeal to current hobbyists but which
> pull in hordes of new players into the industry (hmm, sounds like what the
> StreetFighter games is suppossed to do [maybe it will and maybe it won't
> though] or what M:TG has been doing to some extent).
> ...
> I doubt that the folks at most of the more successful medium and
> smaller game companies really perceive TSR has having a stranglehold on the
> hobby. Their games and styles are different and so they try to appeal to
> a different market segment...
Oh yes - I kept meaning to ask - is TSR *really* perceived as that much of
an Evil Empire?
I mean, they are a big company, suffering from their fair share of corporate
stodginess, and their recent actions vis-a-vis the net have been both
silly and misguided (to say the least), but they've never seemed to me to
be that dedicated to destroying rival companies or attaining monopoly power.
Heck, they run conventions at which other companies can rent space. And
their magazine carries pretty fair and wide-ranging coverage of non-TSR
products. I've no great love for their games, but they really strike me
as pretty poor hate objects.
Now, if you want to see a games company that blatantly despises the rest
of the industry, seeks to destroy what it doesn't just ignore, and ruins
its own house magazine rather than compromise those principles - you
should come to the UK
Charles Ryan
NCCU...@TWNMOE10.Edu.TW writes:
>When M:TG first came out, [...] (Peter Adkison) came back with a "ya
gotta buy this >game, if you don't we're folding" or something like it
[perhaps some kind NET-frp-
>junkie has the original post in archives somewhere. [...] I was,
however under the >impression that WotC needed M:TG to succeed or they'd
be hurt big time. Luckily for >them their gamble paid off. Anyone else
have better recollection or records
A year ago, WotC was a small company with a couple of moderately
successful small game lines (Talislanta and The Primal Order--am I
forgetting anything?). To put that in perspective, a moderately
successful small game line generates enough revenue to employ a few
people part-time or one person (maaaybe two) full time--so we're talking
small, small business here. On top of that, they had just concluded a
legal battle with Palladium (anyone remember that one?) that probably
absorbed (this is just a guess, but a well-educated guess) 25% to 75% of
their gross revenues from the previous year.
Now, according to industry buzz, WotC is now the second or third biggest
company in the industry, with revenues over the last twelve months
falling just a couple million short of TSR's previous year's gross.
Another educated guess: MtG is 95% to 98% of WotC's income. MtG has
seriously hurt the sales of almost all small rpgs--and that category
still includes WotC's other lines (line?--I think Talislanta was sold off
and The Primal Order discontinued, leaving only the newly-acquired Ars
Magica). I seriously doubt that WotC's rpg lines have grossed the roughly
$2 million necessary to account for more than 5% of the last year's
sales...
Charles Ryan
Chameleon Eclectic
c...@bev.net
Jamison Graff
people buy their games. They do pursue some aggressive and hostile
intellectual property policies, which are, IMHO, as bad for the progress of
gaming as GNU and EFF think software patenting is for the progress of
computing. 'Nuff said on the conspiracy?
It's also not conspiracy that makes top 40 record stations unbearable for me;
it's savvy radio stations playing exactly what a cross-section of listeners
is most likely to want to hear. Nevertheless, niche marketers have to play
by different rules to survive in the corners left to them. If they don't,
they go belly-up, and nothing will be left of their products but bootleg and
cults, perhaps a few odd supplements popping out in Xerox editions. Just tell
me you've never seen stuff like that, huh?
So anyway, I still claim that little companies are what's between us and having
to accept what TSR offers. I think that TSR is distinctly unlikely to churn
out the mix of idiosyncratic products that I like to see. Therefore, I think
it vital that the little guys prosper - and do so without becoming little TSRs
along the way.
Doing that requires creating some ingenious products, but it's the odd company
indeed that can _rely_ on genius. And that means some clever interaction
between companies can play a big role in expertise-pooling and creative
synergy, without creating the kind of corporate environment which makes
creative employees want to jump ship.
Brian Phillips
Charles Ryan <c...@bev.net> writes:
>In article <1700B13303S...@TWNMOE10.Edu.TW> Brian Phillips [me]
>NCCU...@TWNMOE10.Edu.TW writes:
>> [...] I was,
>however under the >impression that WotC needed M:TG to succeed or they'd
>be hurt big time. Luckily for >them their gamble paid off. Anyone else
>have better recollection or records <<
>Now, according to industry buzz, WotC is now the second or third biggest
>company in the industry, with revenues over the last twelve months
>falling just a couple million short of TSR's previous year's gross.
too.
Now . . . this raises an interesting topic . . . how about someone with
the stats, posting the rankings for companies? I'd like to know where
the various companies rank. Perhaps some GAMAdude or other insider has
the stats on market share and the like. Maybe you could post a handy dandy
chart (none of the RPG magazines I read ever have market info).
If you got it, could you tell us . . .
MARKET PREVIOUS THIS YEAR TOP PRODUCT
RANK COMPANY SHARE YEAR SALES SALES SO FAR LINE(S) CEO
Or something like that. Where can one get information like that on a regular
basis? It'd be nice if one of the company FTP, Gopher, or WWW sites had
this kind of stuff on it. Maybe it's time for GAMA to set up a link to the
Internet.
Darragh J. Delany
>The possible implications of SJ's letter were staggering and probably lost
>on him. Do we really want to set this sort of precedent in our industry?
>Do we want this turning into a lengthy and ridiculous shouting match where
>various company representatives acuse each other of "unethical behavior?"
>Do we want to give enemies of the industry more ammunition?
Well yes its not really such a bad thing. By airing the issues we may
avoid a repetition of it. If companies like WW feel that their image
will be damaged by shoddy business practices then they may think twice
before trying them out. Hiding this sort of thing only encourages repetition.
Anyway it destroys the myth of the hobby being one monolithic satanic
conspiracy :-)
Darragh J. Delany
Mark Hughes
(Hmn. Vampiristic name and userid, wonder which side THIS poster will come down
on?)
: Followers, note:
: Steve Jackson's unprofessional, inflammatory behavior, like a
: kid on a playground, issuing challanges, and trying his damnedest to
: start a flamewar.
Steve is honest, if a bit blunt, with us. From all I've heard from people who
have dealt with him, this is typical - a little rash, more blunt and open about
his opinions than is probably wise, but honest. Like me, he probably needs a
24-hour "cooling down" period between writing a message and actually posting it,
but it's worked to his favor in this case.
: S. Wiecks' behavior: professional, calm. Like the president
: of a company. Also like a mature adult.
Like any other smegging suit. Oily, evasive doubletalk, that in the end says
absolutely nothing. What his real opinions on the matter are (if he has any -
many suits have no personality, in my experience), we have no clue.
: Now who seems more reliable? Sure, we all flame from time to time :}.
: But we're not company heads.
No, we're not. Fortunately, Steve Jackson hasn't let it corrupt him. SJ
explained specifically what was wrong. SW made a PR statement - I could almost
feel the glossy paper it wasn't printed on. I hate PR statements. Give me an
honest flame any day... "In a man's angry words you will find his soul".
: Guess this is just another reason not to buy any Gurps stuff.
: Not that I needed -another- reason, but hey...)
: Jack Dracula
(Ah, another WW dittohead.)
Would you stop dripping angst in here? It's ruining the carpet.
-Mark Hughes
"Disclaimer: I rather intensely do not like the GURPS system myself, I'd
dislike the WW "system" if it had one, and I really dislike the WW
vampire-poseurs (they're especially irritating because I'm often mistaken for
them, since I wear black, never see the sun, and like horror movies... (yes,
I have V:tM (1st Ed) - I'd sell it, but I want to be able to show future
generations of gamers just how lame a "system" can be and still be popular)."
Jack Dracula
Anthony Ragan <ecz...@mvs.oac.ucla.edu> wrote:
>In article <31rot2$i...@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu>,
> Spoken like a true Fan Boy in Black. Careful, Jack. You're
>about to get clove cigarette ashes on your ankh. :)
>--Anthony
At least I don't blindly follow my Gurps-Pope...Oh wait, that's right.
I always forget Gurps isn't a religion. I always mix it up with
Dianetics. :}
(And the similarities are -striking-!)
Jack Dracula
Jack Dracula
>>about to get clove cigarette ashes on your ankh. :)
>>--Anthony
>
>going to buy any WW stuff now!" And people that don't like SJG saying "Right!
>No more GURPS for me!" Man, what a lot of Pointless posturing. Btw, whats
>with the clove cigarette stuff?
> Chris
As the clovee in question: clove cigarettes: popular with the goth-wannabee
crowd, they give a slight natural high. I think they're stinkee, but I
didn't flame, because he used the Sacred Ward Against Flames in his post: :)
Jack Dracula
I *like* my ankh.
Patrick James Conley
>In article <31rot2$i...@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu>,
>vam...@wam.umd.edu (Jack Dracula) writes:
>
>>Followers, note:
>> Steve Jackson's unprofessional, inflammatory behavior, like a
>>kid on a playground, issuing challanges, and trying his damnedest to
>>start a flamewar.
This so-called 'unprofessional, inflammatory behavior' also
informed the general public about what was happening. Yes, a lot of it was
far from what could be accurately termed 'mature', but he is upset, and from
my point of view, has every right to be.
>> S. Wiecks' behavior: professional, calm. Like the president
>>of a company. Also like a mature adult.
And it also told us absolutely nothing except "I'm right, he's
wrong." No details, no explanations behind *ANY* of the items and incidents
that SJ lists, and little else than the layer after layer of fluff and
padding that his company is sooo very famous for.
>>Now who seems more reliable?
SJ: Lays all his cards on the table. Explains the incidents in detail that
cause him to be so angry.
S. Wieck: Says nothing. Accuses SJ of being childish. Exhorts poeple to buy
his company's products. Offers explanations for NONE of the incidents that
SJ points out.
Who seems more reliable?
The choice is obvious.
I'm with you Steve!
Jack Dracula
What kind of stats does he have? equipment?
:}
Jack Dracula
Taki Kogoma
<325lnt$m...@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu> in rec.games.frp.misc:
>Finally! I wanna discuss Steve Jackson's character.
>What kind of stats does he have? equipment?
>:}
Hrm...lessee...
ST: 11 DX: 10 IQ: 13 HT: 10
Advantages: Strong Will +2
Comfortable Wealth
Ally: EFF (Appears 6-)
Disadvantages: Bad Temper
Enemy: T$R (appears 6-, formidable resources)
Enemy: WW Games (appears 12-)
Enemy: US Secret Service (appears 6-, formidable resources)
Skills: Game Design-14
Accounting-12
Merchant (Hobby/Games)-15
Writing-14
[etc.]
(You know...this is kinda fun. ;-)
--
Capt. Gym Z. Quirk (Known to some as Taki Kogoma) kog...@unm.edu
I'll get a life when someone demonstrates it would be superior to
what I have now.
James J Davis
is no relationship between the ability to present well and the quality of
being justified in your action. Set aside testaments to character, we
all well know that it's no problem for either people who know either Steve
to post thier approval or disapproval of either's character. Put simply,
these things really don't matter. What does?
WW and SJG are apparently tripping over each other in misunderstanding.
Things are getting said lots of times instead of just once, and one side (WW)
feels as though they are unnecessairly repeating themselves, while the other
(SJG) feels as though they are being misinformed. It obviously befits both
companies to clear up the misunderstanding in a clear and final manner.
Then both may get over thier irritations.
This is where my problem comes in. In Jackson's post, he describes *two*
ways in which Wieck flat out avoided trying to do this. According to
Jackson, Wieck has denied answering critical project questions in writing,
and has made a big deal over not being recorded over the telephone. As
Weick has not denied these, I can only hold them to be true, placing
Weick in the position of *avoiding accountability* for his words. By
contrast, I have not observed Jackson to avoid a bit of accountability,
nor seen any accusations of that nature.
Now, I haven't even met either Steve. I do not buy, play, or prefer either
of thier game lines. But, for those that are concerned with this issue,
accountability is a little more than a tad important. Don't be snowed by
Jackson's rather angry words, and Weick's smooth talking words. Who is
afraid of being held accountable for thier statments to the other? This
is the key. In my opinion, Jackson satisifies the requirement of being
accountable for his words, Wieck does not. (In all honesty, an opinion
that will not change, barring further information straight from the people
in question.)
-james
Kim Chr. Madsen
> [Stats of Steve Jackson]
Can we have the stats verified, preferably from someone inside SJG (-;
Can we have the stats of SW as well ???
--
Kim Chr. Madsen <ki...@ic.dk> : Internet Consult
Anthony Ragan
jam...@sunee.uwaterloo.ca (James Nicoll) writes:
> Scuttlebutt at cons appears to indicate SJ's driving skills are
>of a noteworthy nature...
>
> James Nicoll
It's not his driving so much, it's the chain-guns he has mounted
under the hood. The man gets a tad upset in trafiic jams.......
--Anthony
ecz...@mvs.oac.ucla.edu -OR- Iris...@aol.com
Rune Chia Pet of Ernalda, Snotling in Chief
Ben and his friend think I rule.
CWM
>vam...@wam.umd.edu (Jack Dracula) was observed writing message
><325lnt$m...@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu> in rec.games.frp.misc:
>>Finally! I wanna discuss Steve Jackson's character.
>>What kind of stats does he have? equipment?
>>:}
>
>Hrm...lessee...
>
>ST: 11 DX: 10 IQ: 13 HT: 10
>
>Advantages: Strong Will +2
> Comfortable Wealth
> Ally: EFF (Appears 6-)
>
>Disadvantages: Bad Temper
> Enemy: T$R (appears 6-, formidable resources)
> Enemy: WW Games (appears 12-)
> Enemy: US Secret Service (appears 6-, formidable resources)
>
>Skills: Game Design-14
> Accounting-12
> Merchant (Hobby/Games)-15
> Writing-14
> [etc.]
>
>(You know...this is kinda fun. ;-)
>
Cute.
If I were to quibble, tho, I'd point out that SJ Games has never tangled
with TSR. In fact, the two companies enjoy a very amiable relationship.
--
Chris W. McCubbin / So I'm sitting there yelling, "Waiter,
C...@IO.COM/CWMF...@AOL.COM / there's a fnord in my soup," for, like, half
Freelance writer/editor / an hour . . . and the bum never even
games/comics/fiction/opinion / LOOKS at me!
Great Cthulhu
>I'm with you Steve!
^^^^^
[chuckle]
Which one?
--
-Doug Gibson d...@wiffin.chem.ucla.edu
"What's this 'lecherous'? Does that mean chaotic?" - overheard at a game con
GS d-(+) H s+:+ !g p? au a- w+ v C++ UH++(++++) P--- L- 3- E N++ K W--- M+ V--
po- Y+ t+ 5- j R++ G+('') tv b+++ !D B--- e++>++++ u+ h---(*) f r+++ n- y+++
James Nicoll
Sue and Sean
>Finally! I wanna discuss Steve Jackson's character.
>What kind of stats does he have? equipment?
--
Susan and Sean (order optional) The US Constitution isn't perfect,
S & S Enterprises but it beats what we've got now.
sa...@netcom.com
Sue and Sean
>Finally! I wanna discuss Steve Jackson's character.
>What kind of stats does he have? equipment?
For one thing, he's got Impulsiveness....
Steffan O'Sullivan
>ST: 11 DX: 10 IQ: 13 HT: 10
Probably higher DX - years of SCA fighting, you know.
> Comfortable Wealth
Ha! You don't know the man if you think he has comfortable wealth!
He's a non-TSR game company president - he's Struggling.
> Enemy: T$R (appears 6-, formidable resources)
Nah. In fact, they've just let him publish a book of cartoons that run
in the Dragon, have sold him Awful Green Things in the past, and have
published Car War novels. Definitely not enemies. Not really allies,
either, but neutral.
--
-Steffan O'Sullivan s...@oz.plymouth.edu Plymouth, NH
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Everything is vague to a degree you do not realize till you
have tried to make it precise. -Bertrand Russell
Bryan J. Maloney
>Jack Dracula <vam...@wam.umd.edu> wrote:
>>
>>At least I don't blindly follow my Gurps-Pope...Oh wait, that's right.
>>I always forget Gurps isn't a religion. I always mix it up with
>>Dianetics. :}
>
>and you'll figure it out, and then you too can be a GURPS-Pope!
>
Ah, you speak of the false frop, the untrue sallack, my benighted,
pinker-than-you-think one. This is a very good thing, for it must
be purchased. However, it is ultimately not as good as it might be for
not all who purchase it should. The false frop is there for the non-Yeti
who are not so unsentient that they do not realize that they are constantly
being drained of their vitality and having it replaced by pinkness.
Unfortunately, sometimes a true yeti, she or he who is of the smelly feet
and boundless libido, he or she who has the potential to truly whiff-sense,
gets hold of false frop. This need not be bad, but too many Yeti in
waiting do not see that false frop is, at best, cheap bulldada. Thus, they
wallow in not being not pink although they think they are not.
If you seek enlightenment on these things or any things, send me $25.00 in
USA funds.
--
Bryan Maloney
Anthony Ragan
sa...@netcom.com (Sue and Sean) writes:
>Thus spake vam...@wam.umd.edu (Jack Dracula):
>>Finally! I wanna discuss Steve Jackson's character.
>>What kind of stats does he have? equipment?
>
>For one thing, he's got Impulsiveness....
Don't forget the honesty disadvantage......(speaks the truth as he
sees it...)
--Anthony
Mark Lilback
I've been playing games for like 15 years but just started on the Net
about two months ago and I have seen a *lot* of comments to the effect
that TSR has screwed up its own presence here.
What exactly did they do? I don't play their games but a whole lot of
people do and I've seen very little discussion of their games. Just curious.
- DeadBoy
josh...@news.delphi.com
>How one camp has or has not offended the other should not be of any
>relevance to finishing what both have started. In my opinion no one
>on either side should get their danders up over simple wienerizm.
>This is business, to enhance the gaming environment, hopefuly to
>synergistically enhance sales. Personal kvetching should be relegated
>to personal kvetching. I enjoy the past products of both camps. I
>buy the products of both camps. I wait, and hope to see more linked
>projects. Looks like I'm going to be waiting a long time.
>My best hopes (despite the facts) for the future.
> Carpe Noctum,
> Dave
Hear hear! (sp?)
I agree with you Dave, and I hope both companies follow suit. With
renewed interest in gamer-bashing in this country (yeah, Pat Robertson is
on the war path ... again), we don't need such in-fighting. I'm not
overly fond with GURPs overall, but LOVE Horror, Wildcards, Prisoner,
Magic, and Rome! I wish both companies better relations in the future...
Another Dave,
Dave Rust
than...@psycfrnd.interaccess.com
Herein we expound upon the crux of the probelm, that is Hacks v. Suits.
The problem is that in the Real WOrld (tm), the Suits control everything,
from the media to...well, everything. SOme have conjectured that the
majority of Hackers fled to this electronic Wonderland to flee the
Suits and their drab, authoritarian ways.
Well kids, they've found us. The main problem is that the moment you
hook up to this box of wires, 99 44/100% of the population is of the
Hacker bent, that is information is free and easily disseminated. THings
like copyright and international law seem piddly, when one realizes that
gifs about pedophilia, illegal in some countries, are avaliable in other
countries with laxer laws. SO where does that data exist? Where I
can get it, or where it electronically sits? Hackers say, "It don't matter.
What's there is there, and trying to draw lines is simply bad mojo." To
them the Internet is a beast NO ONE can kill, and no one can control.
Now the Suits, who are not bad at all, only different, look at the Net
with glazed eyes. Maybe they see untapped market shares, or look
wistfully at that Hacker mentality trying to claw out. Whichever reason,
they comprise the 56/100% of the Net. ANd when they raise a stink,
it smells for MILES. Their dogma which Hackers must abide in the Real
World (tm) doesn't seem to belong in this Brave New World. We know it's
wrong to abuse copyrights, but since it doesn't seem like anyone's making
the bucks (which, as we all know, is all a suit cares about..."A job
well done?" Nahh...), no one Out There is being hurt.
So one day, on rec.games.frp.dnd, a guy pops on, asking why didn't TSR
have a Net presence. He had some keen character generator, that he
wanted approval to sell. Nothing spiffy, just a bit of Shareware to
make a poor dm's life easier. We don't know, and he sits back down.
About a week later, he returns, staggers into the office, a bullet
in the heart (No, wait, that was Phillip Marlowe), and, against good
Nettiquette, posted personal e-mail from a fellow who claimed to be
TSR's missing Net Liason. The Rep merely commented, "We've been
watching for quite some time now, and we've noticed a lot of trademark
and copyright violations. Pretty soon, we'll set up a site where you
can upload and download files, after we apporve of their content,
of course."
Now everyone jumped the gun. Would they CHARGE for this service? THis
was "T$R," after all. What would happen to the stuff "uploaded?" WOuld
it revert to T$R? Would they one day see this work published in a TSR
product, uncredited, unrewarded? And who would be approving this stuff?
After all, they wouldn't have written the darn thing if they LIKED what
TSR was putting out.
These were all pretty good questions, but the problem was that there
were no answers. The Suit had faded back into the shadows, without
answering a one. Being rather knowledgeable about the World of Suits,
I realized that his was his right and RESPONSIBILITY to the company.
He coulnd't say something without being DAMN sure of what he said, and
he'd already had the confidence of e-mail conversations shattered.
He had every right to keep us in the dark.
But had it stopped at that, it would have been froody. But no. A
week later, after boycotts and alternative games were being composed,
someone wrote a rather detailed post, expressing his concerns. He wanted
to know where he could send it to in TSR, for the maximum effect.
THe response, posted to the list, was stunning in its simplicity. the
TSR Rep merely wrote, "We've already read it." So he _didn't_ go away.
He was aware of the confusion, and he let it continue. This irked the
hell out of several people.
Then the first server fell. It became aware that it contained Net.books
that had TSR trademarked terms, so rather than face litigation that
would have jeopardized the other, legitimate concepts, it purged and
closed its AD&D section.
At first, it seemed kind of knee-jerk. After all, TSR hadn't said it
was going to do ANYTHING. It merely reminded us that the work was
copyrighted and trademarked, and that we were violating their intellectual
property.
Three days later, Shannon Appel dropped a bombshell. She had received
correspondence from the Net Rep informing her that he was told her server
had AD&D materials on it, and that the server was violating TSR's
Trademarks and copyrights. Once again, there was no threat, but this
time, the Net Rep was actually "kicking down doors in the middle of the
night," as one Netter put it, even if it was only to tweak them on the
nose. Ms. Appel shot back a good zinger, explaining that her server
only carries materials from companies with reasonable legal departments.
The implications, are indeed staggeing. What about the rec group
rec.games.frp.dnd? dnd is a trademark of TSR, Inc. Can we call a
newsgroup that? Sure, there's comp.ibm, but IBM has never pushed it.
How far could (or WOULD) TSR go?
THe answer is, "We have NO clue." Only silence from the Suit, as he
slowly imposes Real World dogma on the freedom of the Net. It's in
his right, and he has to do it to protect copyright. Ultimately, he
could be setting the Net up for the first big franchise, "TSR-Land,"
where, for a small entrance fee, one can explore endless archives of
other people's work. TO do this, there can be NO competition. All
other sources of TSR-trademarked items have to be deleted. Otherwise,
why would you PAY? Then again, it could be all free, but I kinda
doubt that. Once again, to hammer it home, he has EVERY RIGHT to
do this.
But we DAMN WELL don't have to like it.
>- DeadBoy
CWM
Weasel Boy <mcke...@netcom.com> wrote:
>gaucho (gau...@netcom.com) wrote:
>
>: And Storyteller, of course, is Scientology. :)
>
>Dianetics is Scientology. You just said something about Magic:The
>Gathering being Dianetics. Hmmmmm....
>
>If you want to get into it, I think that Storyteller is more like
>Southern Baptism. Don't ask me why.
>
>What about Kult? What religion is it like?
Kult is Gnosticism.
This is not a one-liner. The philosophy behind Kult really *is* classical
Gnosticism.
Endie
>writes:
>> vam...@wam.umd.edu (Jack Dracula) writes:
>>Now who seems more reliable? Sure, we all flame from time to time :}.
>>But we're not company heads.
>No, but some are fanboys and airheads.
Oh, please... The point Jack made was valid: people flame, but those in
positions of responsibility might be expected to exercise a little more
restraint now and then. As someone from Scotland, I have always had the
greatest of respect for the American tradition, dating back to the
Enlightenment Constitutionalists of the 18th century, of the balance of power,
rights and responsibility. Your remark about fanboys and airheads devalued
what was, on the whole, a relatively closely argued letter.
>I have first ed. Vampire: The Masquerade. I have GURPS: Vampire. Of the two
>products, the latter is the far superior. It has an index, the effects of
>Willpower aren't written in two different places, it has a better system
>where you don't roll handfuls of dice, and it doesn't have the "We are
>redefining Roleplaying as Storytelling" attitude.
Two other things: one, I have 1st edition Vampire too, and my copy has an
index. Not the best index in the world, but useful enough, and very much
present <g>. I don't know if you have lost yours because of the lousy binding
of those early books, but you're off-beam on that one.
Second, one of the reasons I love V:tM is its fresh reevaluation of
role-playing and story-telling. I don't want to buy bog-standard products all
the time: that way lies mediocrity and tedium. Vampire deals with adult
themes in a novel and interesting fashion. Yes, there were one or two niggles
in the mechanics, but every, and I mean *every* RPG I have ever played has
those, GURPS not least amongst them. Generally, though, WW (perhaps together
with FASA, although I am less keen on their games) are to be congratulated on
putting a different twist on a hobby that was becoming seriously cliched...
than...@psycfrnd.interaccess.com
>SubGenius.
I'd say Ba'hai. You've got one guy at the helm who can't be God, and
yet his name is on all the offeratory pieces as if he were, and the
idea is that no matter what game you're playing, you'd be better
playing it with GURPS.
>
>AD&D is ... hmmm... LEt's see. It's got one god (Gary Gygax), and it's
>turned into a bizarre institution with lots of lesser deities. I'll have
>to go with Roman Catholicism on this one.
Anglican. THey USED to worship God, but now they don't anymore,
well, not really. They have saints and stuff, but they don't treat
them like that anymore, and now more or less the passion of the
religion has been intermingles with the day to day workings of the
state, and we all suffer for it.
>--
>====================================================================
>Darren P. Mckeeman | 'The eagle may soar, but a weasel never gets
>Freelance Writer | sucked into a jet engine' - Simon & Simon
>IT'S TIME! Ask me for details! Don't get caught short on 09/17!
>====================================================================
Endie
>Gee, do we even need to wonder what side your bread is buttered
>on?
>Frankly I'm sick of White Wolf's poposity, bad attitude,
>cretinous fans and lack of character. I suggest that people
>follow Wiacek's suggestion and ask people in the gaming industry
>about Steve Jackson and Steve Wiacek.
>Gary N. Mengle ek...@cleveland.freenet.edu
> iron...@aol.com
"poposity" <chuckles> Is that a form of catholicism originating
with the 14th century Bogomil heretics ?
Look, sonny, when it comes to bad attitude, you really should drop that in in
the middle of a calm, well-argued letter, shaming the recipients by your
restraint, not slap-bang in the centre of what was, to be frank, a childish,
or at least adolescent piece of writing which seems (in the light of your
previous posts to this group) to be directed more at working out your
frustrations towards successful authority figures than discussing an
unfortunate episode which reflects the prevailing mindset in the gamer
community. Fortunately, I don't suppose Mr Wieck really minds aiding you in
your therapy :)
As regards cretinous fans... hmmm... I don't think I have had the pleasure of
your acquaintance, Mr Ironczar, but if it isn't too arrogant of me, I really
like to think I come in somewhere above cretinous. It was a silly, ill-judged
comment on your part. And as for "lack of character", the internal
contradictions of your argument are causing the entire letter to creak
audibly. I don't think WW are, in fact, pompous, possessed of a bad attitude,
and followed by a mindless horde of cretinous fans, but if they were, as you
suggest, they would certainly have character.
Do you have some other, unspoken, agenda ? Or do you really care this much
about this issue ? To be frank, I just think that both sides showed faults:
SJ a lack of acumen in going into the project without adequate contractual
safeguards and guarantees, and an unfortunate lack of restraint in dealing
with the consequences (someone mentioned the "hacker mentality"). WW were
perhaps rather foolish in behaving in what might be construed as an arrogant
fashion, and in allowing themselves to be provoked into a response over this
(a lofty silence would probably have served them better). Someone was right,
though, when they said that this sort of thing doesn't happen between banks or
oil companies (not even between Microsoft and Novell !!).
Erik Bunn
> Scuttlebutt at cons appears to indicate SJ's driving skills are
> of a noteworthy nature...
We of ORC may, at this point, verify that his skill in Rabbit
Worshipping is quite good.
--
Erik Bunn // DiscworldRingworldCerebusSandmanC&HBrazilWandaXpilotRaceDrivin'
"Oh, a very useful philosophical animal, your average tortoise. Outrunning
metaphorical arrows, beating hares in races... very handy."
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)
Weasel Boy
: And Storyteller, of course, is Scientology. :)
Dianetics is Scientology. You just said something about Magic:The
Gathering being Dianetics. Hmmmmm....
If you want to get into it, I think that Storyteller is more like
Southern Baptism. Don't ask me why.
What about Kult? What religion is it like?
Undergound is hard blown atheism. Hi Ray =)
Of course, GURPS is Discordianism. I'm waiting for GURPS: Church of the
SubGenius.
AD&D is ... hmmm... LEt's see. It's got one god (Gary Gygax), and it's
turned into a bizarre institution with lots of lesser deities. I'll have
to go with Roman Catholicism on this one.
Any other suggestions for classifying RPGs as Religions?
<note: anyone who fails to see the dripping sarcasm in this post,
well.... I'm really feeling sorry for you!>
Endie
>Now, if you want to see a games company that blatantly despises the rest
>of the industry, seeks to destroy what it doesn't just ignore, and ruins
>its own house magazine rather than compromise those principles - you
>should come to the UK
>--
>Phil Masters
<grinning> I hope you aren't suggesting that G*mes W*rksh*p are a mere shadow
of their former self, and that it ceased to be worth buying White Dwarf around
issue 90-95 ?
Mark Hughes
: Hrm...lessee...
: ST: 11 DX: 10 IQ: 13 HT: 10
: Advantages: Strong Will +2
: Comfortable Wealth
: Ally: EFF (Appears 6-)
: Disadvantages: Bad Temper
: Enemy: T$R (appears 6-, formidable resources)
Are you sure? I've never seen any problems between the two.
: Enemy: WW Games (appears 12-)
: Enemy: US Secret Service (appears 6-, formidable resources)
: Skills: Game Design-14
: Accounting-12
: Merchant (Hobby/Games)-15
: Writing-14
: [etc.]
Vehicular Weapons.
: (You know...this is kinda fun. ;-)
Now how about in Hero terms? <G,D,&R>
-Mark Hughes
Patrick James Conley
>
>If I were to quibble, tho, I'd point out that SJ Games has never tangled
>with TSR. In fact, the two companies enjoy a very amiable relationship.
>--
>Chris W. McCubbin
Ah, but you have to realize, Chris ol' bean, that that doesn't matter: Steve
is the head of a company that isn't big mean ol' TSR (note: No '$') therefore
he simply HAS to have tham as an enemy, regardless of whatever the facts are.
Hell, since when have FACTS ever had anything to do with the roleplayer
mindset?
Mikko Kurki-Suonio
> In article <golux-060...@golux.pr.mcs.net> go...@mcs.com (The only Golu
> >
> >Did any of that heat come from public pronouncements by White Wolf? See,
> >if SJG is concerned that people on the net are bitching at SJG about GURPS
> >Mage being delayed, and wants to say "It's not our fault," it is very
> >simple to say "We are having difficulties with our agreement with White
> >Wolf." Sure, people will want to know what the problems are, and whose
> >fault it is, but it's really not the public's business. As a professional,
> >you say "Look, we're sorry you're upset about the delay. We'll do what we
> >can." If the issues between SJG and WW couldn't be resolved, then the two
> >companies should have issued a joint statement saying so, and apologizing
> >to their customers. I understand that the gaming industry is largely
> >ego-driven, so such a joint action would be difficult to agree on...but it
> >would have been far more professional and businesslike.
Sorry to follow-up to the wrong post, but the original already expired...
So, Golux, in your opinion when the Secret Service raided Steve Jackson
Games, SJ should have acted professional and answered to people asking
for GURPS Cyberpunk something like this:
"We are having difficulties about publishing GURPS Cyberpunk with
the Secret Service. Look, we're sorry you're upset about the delay. We'll
do what we can."
Far more professional than questioning government officials'
methods...
Personally, I value honest opinions more than sweeping problems under the
rug and you-don't-need-to-know-that -attitudes. But then again, I don't
even _want_ to be a businessman :-)
--------
max...@swob.nullnet.fi (Mikko Kurki-Suonio) | A pig who doesn't fly
Voice +358 0 8092681 | is just an ordinary pig.
Sweet Oblivion (+358 0 8092678, V.32bis 8N1) | - Porco Rosso
SnailMail: Maininkitie 8A8 SF 02320 ESPOO FINLAND |
Mark Lilback
Mikko Kurki-Suonio <max...@swob.nullnet.fi> wrote:
>sdo...@mik.uky.edu (scott david orr) writes:
>
>> In article <golux-060...@golux.pr.mcs.net> go...@mcs.com (The only Golu
>> >
>> >Did any of that heat come from public pronouncements by White Wolf? See,
>> >if SJG is concerned that people on the net are bitching at SJG about GURPS
>> >Mage being delayed, and wants to say "It's not our fault," it is very
>> >simple to say "We are having difficulties with our agreement with White
>> >Wolf." Sure, people will want to know what the problems are, and whose
>> >fault it is, but it's really not the public's business. As a professional,
>> >you say "Look, we're sorry you're upset about the delay. We'll do what we
>> >can." If the issues between SJG and WW couldn't be resolved, then the two
>> >companies should have issued a joint statement saying so, and apologizing
>> >to their customers. I understand that the gaming industry is largely
>> >ego-driven, so such a joint action would be difficult to agree on...but it
>> >would have been far more professional and businesslike.
>
>Sorry to follow-up to the wrong post, but the original already expired...
>
>So, Golux, in your opinion when the Secret Service raided Steve Jackson
>Games, SJ should have acted professional and answered to people asking
>for GURPS Cyberpunk something like this:
>
> "We are having difficulties about publishing GURPS Cyberpunk with
>the Secret Service. Look, we're sorry you're upset about the delay. We'll
>do what we can."
Whoa, chummer, you can tell the difference between a voluntary agreement
(such as between SJG and White Wolf) and a raid by a law enforcement
agency, can't you? Steve Jackson *never* agreed to a deal with the Secret
Service. For whatever reason, and in spite of whatever later misgivings,
that is exactly what he agreed to with White Wolf.
>Personally, I value honest opinions more than sweeping problems under the
>rug and you-don't-need-to-know-that -attitudes. But then again, I don't
>even _want_ to be a businessman :-)
No, you don't, and I for one am glad. Knee-jerk anti-'businessman'
sentiment is a dime a trillion on the net.
The owners of TSR are businessmen (regardless of gender). The owners of
White Wolf are businessmen. Those cool people you met at the last 'con you
went to who had a cool game are businessmen. Steve Jackson is a businessman.
That is simply how it is. Games are (hopefully) made out of love, but if
they don't make money, the creators of that game can't clothe, house, or
feed themselves. They therefore quit making games, and the industry suffers.
Mr. Jackson's actions may hopefully have been for our benefit, but if the
overall effect is to discourage other companies and gamers from getting
involved in projects with him so as to avoid their tiffs from being
splattered over the net, we will not have gained a damn thing. Far from
it, in fact.
- DeadBoy
Jim Lai
Mark Lilback <fe6...@unix1.circ.gwu.edu> wrote:
>Mr. Jackson's actions may hopefully have been for our benefit, but if the
>overall effect is to discourage other companies and gamers from getting
>involved in projects with him so as to avoid their tiffs from being
>splattered over the net, we will not have gained a damn thing. Far from
>it, in fact.
>
>- DeadBoy
Why? According to what your hypothetical scenario, Mr. Jackson would merely
have hurt himself. I don't see the bottom falling out of the market when it
comes to gamer submissions and collaborations. Collaborative efforts are
often rather fragile things in the business world. Look at what's happened
between IBM, Intel, and Microsoft lately, for instance. I'm sure Mr.
Jackson weighed the consequences on his bottom line before taking his
actions. (Or to make reference to the issue of Character, there is the
possibility he suffers from the limitation Code of Honor... somewhat of
a vulnerability in the Machiavellian world of business.)
Secondly, I doubt most dealings with individual gamers would involve the
amount of money and scale of problems that collaborations with companies
involve. In such cases, I'd expect the individual to go to the net before
anyone from the company would.
Thirdly, I recall attending a convention panel on starting a career as a
writer. Someone asked for advice was as told (loosely paraphrased):
"Don't even bother. (pause) Now if you were put off by that,
maybe you shouldn't be an author, because it takes a lot of
determination. So don't listen to other people when they tell
you to quit writing."
I don't think it's either WW's or SJG's responsibility as to the
determination held by other company heads and of gamers. Prudence and
caution (sometimes labelled as paranoia) are good things to have, of
course.
GrimJim
David C. Birkhead
better index than _any_ rpg.
Champions -> trancendentalism
Claymatron -> anamism
Carpe Noctem,
Dave
Guy Robinson
: >--
: >Phil Masters
At a UK SF Convention I won a year`s subscription to White Dwarf for
my submission of the Poe of Pain (a trap involving an illusion, a long,
spiked pit and some lavatory humour) into a competition.
That was the year that WD became a vessel of hype for just GW products
and scarely more than a catalogue. The experience caused me to
boycott GW untill my stepson fell into the clutches of Warhammer 40K.
--
Guy Robinson guy....@rx.xerox.com
[implied disclaimer]
The real meaning of Christmas is a Mid-Winter feast.
Jo Walton
ecz...@mvs.oac.ucla.edu "Anthony Ragan" writes:
> In article <sandsCu...@netcom.com>,
> sa...@netcom.com (Sue and Sean) writes:
>
> >Thus spake vam...@wam.umd.edu (Jack Dracula):
> >>Finally! I wanna discuss Steve Jackson's character.
> >>What kind of stats does he have? equipment?
> >
> >For one thing, he's got Impulsiveness....
>
> Don't forget the honesty disadvantage......(speaks the truth as he
> sees it...)
> --Anthony
Sorry to be picky, but that's Truthfulness. Honesty is sort of "law abiding".
He may have just failed a fright check and acquired
Reputation -5 to WW fans to go with his Reputation +2 to gamers...
(Actually trying to do real people in GURPS stats is great fun and always leads
me to thinking up new Advantages/Disadvantages. "Being married is +2 to
Respectability")
Jo
--
-----------------------------------------------------
"Being invisible always makes me so sleepy,"
_The Voyage of the Dawn Treader_ C.S. Lewis
Sean McCrohan
original exchange which started this whole thread. No, no need to repost
it - to judge from the reaction, once was enough. In fact, once may have
been MORE than enough. A few thoughts, though - focused more on the
replies than on the letters which started it all.
First of all, in regard to boycotts: my choices of products on
which I spend money, like those of all of my associates, are based on the
quality of the product involved, rather than my perception of the company
or individual responsible for its creation. The fact that the author of
a book is a wonderful person, a living saint, who always turns the other
cheek and never, ever cheats on his taxes has never in the past been
sufficient reason to purchase said book if the work itself is so much
uninspired, recycled pap. Likewise, the knowledge that the creator of a
work is commonly held to be a complete and total asshole with absolutely
no redeeming social characteristics will not make me put down a book
which I feel to be well written, creative, and worthwhile.
Now, if the behavior of the person in question falls into the
area of what I consider to be immoral or dangerous, that could change.
However, there is nothing immoral or illegal about being rude,
insensitive, or immature (imagine the state of our prison system if there
were!). And the only one who is seriously put in danger by the behavior
of a boor is the asshole themselves.
Let's take a quick look at the scoreboard now:
STG: Loss. They've generated a fair amount of negative publicity for
themselves here, in an area (the Internet) which has contact with a very
sizable portion of their customer base. In general, this is a Bad Thing.
WW: Loss. Like STG, their behavior has been called into question by a
sizable portion of the online audience here, even on what is, in a way,
their 'home turf'. Again, a Bad Thing, especially for a company which
has a reputation for strong creative potential but a weakness in the area
of business, and who is trying to cultivate an image as an organized,
professional company.
A.G.WW: Loss. Losing GURPS Mage was bad enough. Having to put up with
endless arguements about whose fault it was is (and will likely continue
to be) worse. Possibly far worse, as I can transfer Mage to GURPS for
myself, but the best I can do when it comes to ending this arguement is a
kill file.
Hmm. Three strikes, you're out. Next batter?
Honestly...continuing this thread (which both WW and STG are
reading, obviously) will only serve to make them solidify their
respective positions, thus ensuring that the book over which this entire
tiresome arguement is being fought will NEVER see the light of day.
WW and STG: If you want my support, don't try to win it by making the
other company look bad. I don't care a bit what they look like. Instead,
try publishing the book. You both have some excellent writers on staff.
Instead of showing us your literary talents by writing flames, why don't
you concentrate on coming to agreement over this project, and then
SELLING it?
--Sean McCrohan
mccr...@clark.net
Jamison Graff
Jo Walton <J...@kenjo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>He may have just failed a fright check and acquired
>Reputation -5 to WW fans to go with his Reputation +2 to gamers...
>
Ouch! Is that dichotomy meant to stir up a ruckus?
Jamison Graff
jtg...@nwu.edu
--
Jamison Graff
Dept. of Industrial Engineering & Management Science
Northwestern University, Evanston, Illinois
jtg...@nwu.edu, jam...@merle.acns.nwu.edu
Mikko Kurki-Suonio
>
> Whoa, chummer, you can tell the difference between a voluntary agreement
> (such as between SJG and White Wolf) and a raid by a law enforcement
> agency, can't you? Steve Jackson *never* agreed to a deal with the Secret
> Service. For whatever reason, and in spite of whatever later misgivings,
> that is exactly what he agreed to with White Wolf.
I don't agree. By staying in a country, you agree to obey its laws and
work with its officials. If you don't like them, move to another country.
By staying in USA, SJG took the risk that one day US government officials
would act pigheaded and come down on them. By enetring a contract with
WW they took the risk that WW would act pigheaded one day.
>
> >Personally, I value honest opinions more than sweeping problems under the
> >rug and you-don't-need-to-know-that -attitudes. But then again, I don't
> >even _want_ to be a businessman :-)
>
> No, you don't, and I for one am glad. Knee-jerk anti-'businessman'
> sentiment is a dime a trillion on the net.
Why, thank you for the compliment :-)/2
Here I am, trying to explain why and how much I value honesty. Apparently
to deaf ears. In return I get wonderful opinions on my suitability for
certain vocations and practically being called a knee-jerk idiot. I
wonder why I bother.
>
> The owners of TSR are businessmen (regardless of gender). The owners of
> White Wolf are businessmen. Those cool people you met at the last 'con you
> went to who had a cool game are businessmen. Steve Jackson is a businessman.
The only con. And it happened to be Steve Jackson. See my posting
address.
>
> That is simply how it is. Games are (hopefully) made out of love, but if
> they don't make money, the creators of that game can't clothe, house, or
> feed themselves. They therefore quit making games, and the industry suffers.
Certainly, no basic disagreement here. If you make a good game, I'm
certainly willing to pay for your effort, so you can have a burger that
day - that's entirely ok by me. But if I go home and find half the rules
missing or vague with a note: "These sections will be detailed in a
forthcoming supplement (BUY IT!)" - I'm not a happy camper.
We seem to have a basic disagreement on terminology here. In my mind, you
can run a successful business without being a "businessman".
Like you can be a successful ruler without following Machivellian
doctrine to the letter. See the difference?
>
> Mr. Jackson's actions may hopefully have been for our benefit, but if the
> overall effect is to discourage other companies and gamers from getting
> involved in projects with him so as to avoid their tiffs from being
> splattered over the net, we will not have gained a damn thing. Far from
> it, in fact.
Well, if that happens, it's ultimately HIS loss, isn't it?
But IMHO, it would also be his loss to let out a message to the industry:
"You can screw us as much as you like, just stay within the letter of the
contract. We'll keep quiet and nobody else will know."
Bryan J. Maloney
It is cute coming up with yourself in your favorite game. GURPS and
Hero are the most fun for me because I have the most fun with the
disadvantages.
(For the curious:
Lecherous
Impulsive
Overconfident
Unattractive
Bad Temper
Compulsive Email User
Compulsive Computer Game Player
Intensely Curious
Odious Habit (brushes teeth only when wife reminds him to)
Dependent (Infant Son)
Dependent/Ally (Wife)
Sense of Duty to friends
Addiction (caffeine)
Overweight
See if you can get THAT under 40 points.)
--
Bryan Maloney
Philip Masters
k.har...@norcol.ac.uk "Endie" writes:
> <grinning> I hope you aren't suggesting that G*mes W*rksh*p are a mere shadow
> of their former self, and that it ceased to be worth buying White Dwarf around
> issue 90-95 ?
Why should I bother?
--
Phil Masters
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
None learned the art of archery from me | Useless is a wonderful milk-yield
Who did not make me, in the end, | From a cow which kicks the pail over
the target | - Hadrat Muinudin Chishti
- Saadi of Shiraz |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Cooper
>As for the legal connotations, Phil hinted that White Wolf would be ready
>to sue ME over my statements on the Net. This only goes to show how
>ignorant you people are of the way things work on the Net. This is a
>public forum. As Wade Racine says, you should view it in the same way as
>people discussing things at a coffeeshop. Everything is everyone's own
>opinion, just as this is my opinion. As soon as people are threatened
>into silence because of corporate interests, I'll leave this country. We
>all have free speech rights.
One big difference between net.communication and talking in a coffee
shop is that you leave a HUGE bit.trail behind you when you speak out on
the net (particularly in a newsgroup). Anything you post can and will be
used against you, as it were. No need for recordings or witnesses, it is
all there in thousands of archives, just waiting to be plundered by the
prosecution.
-John
+--------------------------+------------------------------------------+
| John R. Cooper | Internet: j...@vivitech.com, |
| Vivid Technologies, Inc. | jco...@world.std.com |
| Waltham, MA 02154 | AOL: JRCooper (jrco...@aol.com) |
+--------------------------+------------------------------------------+
| | GCS/O d H s g+ p? au>+ a- w v++ C++$ U-- |
| "Rub her feet." | P- L- 3- E N+ K++ W++ M++ V -po+ Y+ t++@ |
| - Long's Notes | 5 j R+++$ G' tv@ b+ D+ B--- e++ u** h--- |
| | f+ r++ n->+ y+++*>$ |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Mikko Kurki-Suonio
>
> He "should" have done what he did, as far as I know: engage legal counsel
> to help with the government's charges and, later, to help him recover his
> hijacked computer equipment.
>
He also did make the thing public. As for the WW case, wo do not know if
he has sought legal counsel in the matter or not.
>
> The situations are not analogous. In the first place, the Secret Service
> raid was a matter of public record between the government and SJG. The
> GURPS Mage situation is a private matter between two private businesses.
I've already said this, but you are basing that claim on your cultural
background. Even apart from the countries where accusing government
officials earns you a lifetime in prison or worse, there are a lot of
countries where it's considered bad manners. Thus, I was trying to
discuss this on a general ethics level, i.e. what can you do if someone
screws you.
> Mr. Jackson is, of course, free to say anything he wants in either
> situation...but it would have been more professional, when dealing with
> private business matters, not to air "dirty laundry." Perhaps he was
> feeling put-upon by the dealings with White Wolf; perhaps he was even
> justified. But regardless, it was immature and unprofessional for him to
> attack WW and Wieck in public.
If that is your personal opinion, fine, I have no beef with it. But if
you think it's somehow universally correct analysis of the situation, I
ask you to at least respect the opinions of other people, nations and
cultures who do not agree with your views.
Psycho-AKL
White Wolf for me? Thanks.
Aaron "Psycho-AKL" Thies | Optimus Design Systems
th...@acsu.buffalo.edu | PO Box 1511 (716)881-4525
th...@wizards.com | Buffalo, NY 14215 Phone/Fax
-----------------------------------------------------------
Optimus Design Systems (ODS) Internet Representative
Deckmaster Card & Set Fixer (buy, sell, and trade)
--------------------------------------------------
"Real love is a dream few of us ever have."