Super Mario Sunshine - Overrated and challenging in all the wrong ways
Steve
critics thought it was so revolutionary. I guess by the time I had
played it, I had played other 3D platform games that had been based
upon the techniques developed in Mario 64 (Although I doubt that it
was the first 3D platformer anyway...) Due to those reasons, I felt
like I was being too hard on the game because the worst aspect of it
was the camera, something that was definately improved with other 3rd
person video games developed afterwards. That said, I would think
that it's sequel, released over 6 years later, would resolve the
biggest problems of Mario 64 but it did not. Here's a rundown on the
issues I have with the game:
- Absolutely unacceptable camera behavior. Come on Nintendo, there's
no excuse for the camera to STILL be this bad. In a platform game, it
is especially important for the camera to move in a logical and
predictable way. It is not acceptable to hide your character behind
scenery, revolve the camera while performing an important jump, or
move so slowly that the character moves off screen while the camera
catches up. Yup, while I was performing a difficult jump off of a
cliff not only did the camera suddenly swerve around Mario but when
Mario fell he went off screen while the slowly moving camera meandered
its way to where Mario was.
The problem of scenery blocking your character's view has been
resolved in games for years. The most common solution is for the
interfering object to become transparent or opaque so you can see your
surroundings. In Mario 64 you were completely out of luck, but with
Sunshine the developers did one of the most boneheaded things I've
ever seen in a game like this: the blocking object remains solid but
you see a shadow of the character. Since you cannot see your
environment the ability to see your character's shadow is absolutely
useless. I swear, this totally comes across as if the developers were
giving long-time fans the finger.
- Jumping is just as difficult as it was in Mario 64. I'm not talking
about how the moving camera can make controlling the jump impossible,
I'm refering to the abundance of "alternate" -and useless- jumps that
Mario can perform that always seem to be triggered unexpectedly. In
the old days you pointed Mario in a direction and pressed jump. The
faster you were running and the longer you held down the button
determined how high Mario would jump. While in the air you were given
a degree of freedom in controlling how he moved. These rules were
completely trashed in Mario 64 and remain trashed in Sunshine. Now,
Mario will often take off in a backflip or summersault in the wrong
direction for no obvious reason. I beat Mario64 and have collected 11
sun sprites in Sunshine and I have yet to encounter a situation where
those abilities are useful. They were obviously added for the "wow"
factor in bringing new moves to Mario. Please, just take them away!
- Like in Mario 64, the largely useless bellyslide has returned and
uses the small red "B" button. Couldn't they have found something
more useful for the "B" button? I miss those days of throwing
fireballs and being able to run fast with the "B" button... But
anyway, this feature is often annoying. Back in the old days of the
NES, all platform games seemed standardized on button purpose but now
it's a complete tossup on what button a developer will use for jump.
Since I also play "Metriod Prime" (The best game ever), I am now used
to using "B" for jump. When playing "Sunshine", I constantly hit that
"B" button to jump out of habit only to get a stupid bellyslide. Not
only does "B" do a bellyslide, it also allows you to talk with the
natives of the island but ONLY when a "B" bubble appears on screen.
So if you walk up to someone and press "B" to speak but commit the sin
in doing so before the "B" bubble appears, you will perform a
bellyslide.
- The voices. Mario's voice was so annoying in Mario 64 that I
sometimes turned off the audio and played a CD so I wouldn't hear him
doing a "yippie" "woo-hoo" "waah-oh-waah-oh-waah-oh" and the rest of
his expressions which sound like they are coming out of Mickey Mouse.
Every time he jumps you hear Mickey Mouse say "yah!". He is a little
less annoying than in Mario 64 though, in that game he was constantly
giggling whenever you would screwup. This made him seem like a
bumbling idiot or a pothead. Take your pick.
- The FLUDD waterpack. I guess Miyomato got the idea that things on
your character's backs are cool so he put a vaccum cleaner into
Luigi's Mansion and a water jet on Mario's back. The device is
difficult to control and upon starting it up, Mario always initially
aims it at the ground. There's no target locking mechanism in this
game, so the waterjet is very difficult to control. Since the camera
is always designed to work against you, this means that you will often
have to shot at something that you cannot see.
And, boy, isn't it lucky for Mario that after a dozen adventures
without the water pack he fortunately gets it right before he's faced
with an adventure where, suddenly, enemies can only be defeated by
squirting water at them? It's a good thing Bowser never thought to
use one of those baddies in the old games otherwise he would have won!
- The graphics: They are marginally better than Mario 64 and often
show mistakes.
- They've added new things to the Mario universe and removed old
concepts to keep it fresh. This only works if the new stuff is good
and the old stuff sucked, unfortunately that isn't the case. The
new-ish jumping techniques are terrible and the FLUDD sucks. Old
things like fast running, flying, fireballs, mushrooms to make you
grow, classic enemies like Koopa Troopas, kicking turtleshells, and
other things are gone. I thought that many of these were removed in
Mario 64 due to the challenge of incorporating them into a 3D game or
rendering the characters, but the GC has plenty of horsepower for
those things. They did bring back some cool things like the chainlink
fence from Super Mario World.
If they would only fix the damn camera and make Mario's jumping
behavior easy to control Nintendo would have possibly had a good game.
Due to those problems constantly getting in the way of the gameplay I
cannot recommend this game to anyone. Those 2 reasons alone make this
game an absolutely miserable experience to play. A game should be
challenging by making challenging levels, not by making play control a
challenge!
BTW, Nintendo: the Supreme Court has granted Disney an extension on
their copyright of Mickey Mouse so you might want to stop using
Mickey's voice as Mario's. You wouldn't want the Disney lawyers to
come after you for copyright infringement.
Jonathan Timar
I agree with everything you say here. Mario games are insanely overrated.
Bondo
was my game of the year. It was a superb recreation of the series adding
all sorts of touches that really expand on Mario 64's 3D play. Yes it is
hard, but most often it is just something that takes time.
Shadow
"Steve" <sshe...@millenianet.com> wrote in message
news:6e616f77.03011...@posting.google.com...
> I bought Mario 64 well after it was released and never understood why
> critics thought it was so revolutionary. I guess by the time I had
> played it, I had played other 3D platform games that had been based
> upon the techniques developed in Mario 64 (Although I doubt that it
> was the first 3D platformer anyway...) Due to those reasons, I felt
> like I was being too hard on the game because the worst aspect of it
> was the camera, something that was definately improved with other 3rd
> person video games developed afterwards. That said, I would think
> that it's sequel, released over 6 years later, would resolve the
> biggest problems of Mario 64 but it did not. Here's a rundown on the
> issues I have with the game:
>
> - Absolutely unacceptable camera behavior. Come on Nintendo, there's
> no excuse for the camera to STILL be this bad. In a platform game, it
> is especially important for the camera to move in a logical and
> predictable way. It is not acceptable to hide your character behind
> scenery, revolve the camera while performing an important jump, or
> move so slowly that the character moves off screen while the camera
> catches up. Yup, while I was performing a difficult jump off of a
> cliff not only did the camera suddenly swerve around Mario but when
> Mario fell he went off screen while the slowly moving camera meandered
> its way to where Mario was.
I never had this problem. The camera moved quick enough and was righted well
before any important jumps.
>
> The problem of scenery blocking your character's view has been
> resolved in games for years. The most common solution is for the
> interfering object to become transparent or opaque so you can see your
> surroundings. In Mario 64 you were completely out of luck, but with
> Sunshine the developers did one of the most boneheaded things I've
> ever seen in a game like this: the blocking object remains solid but
> you see a shadow of the character. Since you cannot see your
> environment the ability to see your character's shadow is absolutely
> useless. I swear, this totally comes across as if the developers were
> giving long-time fans the finger.
I barely ever let the environment cover up Mario, so I'm wondering what you're
doing to let it obstruct your view like that.
>
> - Jumping is just as difficult as it was in Mario 64. I'm not talking
> about how the moving camera can make controlling the jump impossible,
> I'm refering to the abundance of "alternate" -and useless- jumps that
> Mario can perform that always seem to be triggered unexpectedly. In
> the old days you pointed Mario in a direction and pressed jump. The
> faster you were running and the longer you held down the button
> determined how high Mario would jump. While in the air you were given
> a degree of freedom in controlling how he moved. These rules were
> completely trashed in Mario 64 and remain trashed in Sunshine. Now,
> Mario will often take off in a backflip or summersault in the wrong
> direction for no obvious reason.
That just sounds like poor skills. None of these jumps happen unexpectedly,
there's a specific event for each of them. Triple jumps, side flips, etc. all
happen for a reason. If they're happening unexpectedly, then you need more
practice.
>I beat Mario64 and have collected 11
> sun sprites in Sunshine and I have yet to encounter a situation where
> those abilities are useful. They were obviously added for the "wow"
> factor in bringing new moves to Mario. Please, just take them away!
Uh, the side flip is useful in countless situations in Sunshine where you need
added height to your jump but don't have enough running room to get a triple
jump.
>
> - Like in Mario 64, the largely useless bellyslide has returned and
> uses the small red "B" button. Couldn't they have found something
> more useful for the "B" button? I miss those days of throwing
> fireballs and being able to run fast with the "B" button... But
> anyway, this feature is often annoying. Back in the old days of the
> NES, all platform games seemed standardized on button purpose but now
> it's a complete tossup on what button a developer will use for jump.
> Since I also play "Metriod Prime" (The best game ever), I am now used
> to using "B" for jump. When playing "Sunshine", I constantly hit that
> "B" button to jump out of habit only to get a stupid bellyslide. Not
> only does "B" do a bellyslide, it also allows you to talk with the
> natives of the island but ONLY when a "B" bubble appears on screen.
> So if you walk up to someone and press "B" to speak but commit the sin
> in doing so before the "B" bubble appears, you will perform a
> bellyslide.
Well, again, that's just poor skills and/or memory retention, it's not fair to
blame the game itself for that just because two different games use the same
button in a different way.
>
> - The voices. Mario's voice was so annoying in Mario 64 that I
> sometimes turned off the audio and played a CD so I wouldn't hear him
> doing a "yippie" "woo-hoo" "waah-oh-waah-oh-waah-oh" and the rest of
> his expressions which sound like they are coming out of Mickey Mouse.
> Every time he jumps you hear Mickey Mouse say "yah!". He is a little
> less annoying than in Mario 64 though, in that game he was constantly
> giggling whenever you would screwup. This made him seem like a
> bumbling idiot or a pothead. Take your pick.
Eh, to each his own. I didn't care.
>
> - The FLUDD waterpack. I guess Miyomato got the idea that things on
> your character's backs are cool so he put a vaccum cleaner into
> Luigi's Mansion and a water jet on Mario's back. The device is
> difficult to control and upon starting it up, Mario always initially
> aims it at the ground. There's no target locking mechanism in this
> game, so the waterjet is very difficult to control. Since the camera
> is always designed to work against you, this means that you will often
> have to shot at something that you cannot see.
Difficult? Press Y (or hold down R till it clicks), use the control stick,
spray with R, and that's it. I don't see the difficulty.
>
> And, boy, isn't it lucky for Mario that after a dozen adventures
> without the water pack he fortunately gets it right before he's faced
> with an adventure where, suddenly, enemies can only be defeated by
> squirting water at them? It's a good thing Bowser never thought to
> use one of those baddies in the old games otherwise he would have won!
That's just standard gaming plot holes. Where did Samus' equipment go after the
original Metroid? What Zelda game came first? It's not supposed to make sense.
Actually...in this game it does make sense due to the nature of the monsters,
but I won't get into that.
>
> - The graphics: They are marginally better than Mario 64 and often
> show mistakes.
Graphics are overrated.
>
> - They've added new things to the Mario universe and removed old
> concepts to keep it fresh. This only works if the new stuff is good
> and the old stuff sucked, unfortunately that isn't the case. The
> new-ish jumping techniques are terrible and the FLUDD sucks. Old
> things like fast running, flying, fireballs, mushrooms to make you
> grow, classic enemies like Koopa Troopas, kicking turtleshells, and
> other things are gone. I thought that many of these were removed in
> Mario 64 due to the challenge of incorporating them into a 3D game or
> rendering the characters, but the GC has plenty of horsepower for
> those things. They did bring back some cool things like the chainlink
> fence from Super Mario World.
>
>
> If they would only fix the damn camera and make Mario's jumping
> behavior easy to control Nintendo would have possibly had a good game.
> Due to those problems constantly getting in the way of the gameplay I
> cannot recommend this game to anyone. Those 2 reasons alone make this
> game an absolutely miserable experience to play. A game should be
> challenging by making challenging levels, not by making play control a
> challenge!
You need practice. I mean that.
>
> BTW, Nintendo: the Supreme Court has granted Disney an extension on
> their copyright of Mickey Mouse so you might want to stop using
> Mickey's voice as Mario's. You wouldn't want the Disney lawyers to
> come after you for copyright infringement.
Charles Martinet was not the voice of Mickey Mouse. Just thought you should
know.
T Bone
Dusto
enviroment go transparent when it's blocking the view of the character. I
shouldn't have to babysit the camera. It makes getting up that ferris wheel
in Pina Park a nightmare. I also have a problem with the game not telling
you where to go next. It makes for some very disjointed gameplay.
Dusto
"T Bone" <slug...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:icyW9.28155$jM5....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
Adnan
>
> I do. The camera in SMS is the worst I have ever seen. Why doesn't the
> enviroment go transparent when it's blocking the view of the character. I
> shouldn't have to babysit the camera. It makes getting up that ferris wheel
> in Pina Park a nightmare.
[snip]
I had huge problems (I was about to have a heart attack playing that
level) with the Camera in that particular level but that was it. The
rest of the time it was fine.
Adnan B.
Asianflow
(playing it on or off for a while) and I only have 17 Sprites. That
watermelon level, where I have to push it in the blender is so frustrating,
I'm tempted to stop playing the game.
Steve
> before any important jumps.
Fall from a high place and Mario will fall offscreen before the camera
catches up.
> I barely ever let the environment cover up Mario, so I'm wondering what you're
> doing to let it obstruct your view like that.
I either want the camera to be behind my character or remain fixed.
Since Sunshine tends to pan the camera around at precisely the wrong
moment, I try to move the camera behind Mario whenever possible. When
an object is in the way, the developers apparently decide to punish
such behavior by blocking your view.
I know this is a common problem with the games. I have read and heard
numerous complaints about the camera from Mario64 from people who have
both loved and disliked the game. Since the camera is only slightly
better at best, it would be logical to assume those same complaints
would exist, and they do. Every unbiased place I've gone to see user
comments on the game continue to complain about the camera.
> That just sounds like poor skills. None of these jumps happen unexpectedly,
> there's a specific event for each of them. Triple jumps, side flips, etc.
Poor skills? I just want Mario to jump the direction I press and as
high as his speed and button press imply. This has nothing to do with
poor skills, it's called a bad design! Stand stationary and do
nothing but jump 2 or 3 times. He jumps, then the second jump is
higher. Why? There's no sense to that. Why would he do an
uncontrollable summersault instead of a normal jump when pressing to a
direction other than to the side? It was only done for the "wow"
factor and interferes with actual game play. The other 3D platform
games I've played (like Pac-Man World2) don't have a character with
unpredictable jumping behavior.
> happen for a reason. If they're happening unexpectedly, then you need more
> practice.
I realize that there's rules in the game for when and why such jumps
occur, I'm defining "unexpected" in the way the control is not
intuitive.
> Well, again, that's [a/b button switch] just poor skills and/or memory
> retention, it's not fair to
> blame the game itself for that just because two different games use the same
> button in a different way.
This is absolutely a fair complaint! Why are stoplights always
arranged the way they are? Why Windows does software always seem to
use Ctrl+C for copy and Ctrl+X for paste? Why do all DVD players use
a right arrow on the play buttons? Human beings are creatures of
habit! If you get it wired in your head that "something" performs a
specific purpose, you naturally expect a similar "something" to
perform that same task in another situation. Many games have an
options menu so you can select your own button layout, I should double
check with Sunshine to see if they have one.
> Eh, to each his own [voices]. I didn't care.
Peach's is so exaggerated that it's actually funny, but Mario has a
horrible voice.
The FLUDD device
> Difficult? Press Y (or hold down R till it clicks), use the control stick,
> spray with R, and that's it. I don't see the difficulty.
Yes, it's a pain in the neck. Why is it always pointed down when you
first begin squirting? Why won't the camera cooperate when the target
is high in the air?
> That's just standard gaming plot holes. Where did Samus' equipment go after the
> original Metroid? What Zelda game came first? It's not supposed to make sense.
> Actually...in this game it does make sense due to the nature of the monsters,
> but I won't get into that.
I know it's a plot device, I was being sarcastic on that one. But I
think Samus kept her equipement from the original Metroid. In Metroid
Prime (which takes place after Metroid I) you begin with all of the
items used in the original plus a few extras. Then a "plot device"
occurs that removes all of those upgrades so you collect them again.
> Graphics are overrated.
It would have been a perfect game for the cell-shaded technique used
in Zelda.
> You need practice. I mean that.
But the problem is that I have no incentive to practice. My problems
biggest complaints come from bad design (like the random camera), the
game just isn't fun. I haven't enjoyed any of the levels and find
them to be tired. The last platformer I bought was the largely panned
Pac-Man World 2 and I found it to be far more enjoyable than this
game.
> Charles Martinet was not the voice of Mickey Mouse. Just thought you should
> know.
Details schmealtails. It still sounds the same!
Shadow
well
> > before any important jumps.
>
> Fall from a high place and Mario will fall offscreen before the camera
> catches up.
Again, never had that problem, I didn't fall unless it was into a bottomless
pit.
>
>
> > I barely ever let the environment cover up Mario, so I'm wondering what
you're
> > doing to let it obstruct your view like that.
>
> I either want the camera to be behind my character or remain fixed.
> Since Sunshine tends to pan the camera around at precisely the wrong
> moment, I try to move the camera behind Mario whenever possible. When
> an object is in the way, the developers apparently decide to punish
> such behavior by blocking your view.
>
> I know this is a common problem with the games. I have read and heard
> numerous complaints about the camera from Mario64 from people who have
> both loved and disliked the game. Since the camera is only slightly
> better at best, it would be logical to assume those same complaints
> would exist, and they do. Every unbiased place I've gone to see user
> comments on the game continue to complain about the camera.
So you have to be biased to not have a problem with the camera, and it has
nothing at all to do with your ability to control it? Thanks.
>
> > That just sounds like poor skills. None of these jumps happen unexpectedly,
> > there's a specific event for each of them. Triple jumps, side flips, etc.
>
> Poor skills? I just want Mario to jump the direction I press and as
> high as his speed and button press imply. This has nothing to do with
> poor skills, it's called a bad design! Stand stationary and do
> nothing but jump 2 or 3 times. He jumps, then the second jump is
> higher. Why? There's no sense to that. Why would he do an
> uncontrollable summersault instead of a normal jump when pressing to a
> direction other than to the side? It was only done for the "wow"
> factor and interferes with actual game play. The other 3D platform
> games I've played (like Pac-Man World2) don't have a character with
> unpredictable jumping behavior.
First of all, you make it seem like you can't control Mario at all, hence poor
skills. And the side sumersault is easy to control, so I don't know what you're
talking about.
>
>
> > happen for a reason. If they're happening unexpectedly, then you need more
> > practice.
>
> I realize that there's rules in the game for when and why such jumps
> occur, I'm defining "unexpected" in the way the control is not
> intuitive.
How is it unexpected? Do you press the A button and Mario shoots water? Does
the B button make you jump? If you just press the wrong button at the wrong
time, that's not the game's fault.
>
>
> > Well, again, that's [a/b button switch] just poor skills and/or memory
> > retention, it's not fair to
> > blame the game itself for that just because two different games use the same
> > button in a different way.
>
> This is absolutely a fair complaint! Why are stoplights always
> arranged the way they are? Why Windows does software always seem to
> use Ctrl+C for copy and Ctrl+X for paste?
Ctrl+V for paste...
>Why do all DVD players use
> a right arrow on the play buttons? Human beings are creatures of
> habit! If you get it wired in your head that "something" performs a
> specific purpose, you naturally expect a similar "something" to
> perform that same task in another situation. Many games have an
> options menu so you can select your own button layout, I should double
> check with Sunshine to see if they have one.
They don't. And this is a rather ridiculous claim if you're only blaming Mario
Sunshine for this. The jump button often will not be the same from game to
game, and there is often not an option to change your controls. This is an
unfair criticism because it's unreasonable to expect the same button to do the
same thing from game to game. As I said, if you can't get used to different
controls, that's poor skills, not a fault with the gameplay.
>
>
> > Eh, to each his own [voices]. I didn't care.
>
> Peach's is so exaggerated that it's actually funny, but Mario has a
> horrible voice.
I don't care.
>
>
> The FLUDD device
> > Difficult? Press Y (or hold down R till it clicks), use the control stick,
> > spray with R, and that's it. I don't see the difficulty.
>
> Yes, it's a pain in the neck. Why is it always pointed down when you
> first begin squirting? Why won't the camera cooperate when the target
> is high in the air?
It's actually pointed straight to start, you're just holding the control stick
forward so it's pointed down.
>
>
> > That's just standard gaming plot holes. Where did Samus' equipment go after
the
> > original Metroid? What Zelda game came first? It's not supposed to make
sense.
> > Actually...in this game it does make sense due to the nature of the
monsters,
> > but I won't get into that.
>
> I know it's a plot device, I was being sarcastic on that one. But I
> think Samus kept her equipement from the original Metroid. In Metroid
> Prime (which takes place after Metroid I) you begin with all of the
> items used in the original plus a few extras. Then a "plot device"
> occurs that removes all of those upgrades so you collect them again.
Except she had the grappling hook to begin with. Makes no sense, and it
shouldn't.
>
>
> > Graphics are overrated.
>
> It would have been a perfect game for the cell-shaded technique used
> in Zelda.
>
>
> > You need practice. I mean that.
>
> But the problem is that I have no incentive to practice. My problems
> biggest complaints come from bad design (like the random camera), the
> game just isn't fun. I haven't enjoyed any of the levels and find
> them to be tired. The last platformer I bought was the largely panned
> Pac-Man World 2 and I found it to be far more enjoyable than this
> game.
Then stop playing Mario and go back to Pac-man. Simple as that.
Shadow
"Asianflow" <rmc...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:AeDW9.69994$Yo4.4...@news1.calgary.shaw.ca...
Gary
I have 60 sprites, played for a good while and the camera is mostly fine
with one or two flaws at certain points in the game - and remember Nintendo
actually wanted the user to have complete control over the camera system.
Also, I think you need to go back to basics and learn how to use the
gamecube controller - it is easy to see from your post that you are a flawed
and impatient player.
I think something like space invaders may be more your cup of tea...
Mario Sunshine - 10 out of 10 from me.
Gary.
"Steve" <sshe...@millenianet.com> wrote in message
news:6e616f77.03011...@posting.google.com...
DavidGilmour
S
P
A
C
E
I agree with you, got the game early september, found it too hard and stopped
playing.
Just picked it up again after completing Burnout and what happened ?
I stopped at 5 shines in october and now I have 25 shines, just go through the
motions. Here is a hint for the melon level, just roll it down the hills and
walk in front of it occasionally to ' shoot ' those animals that throw you in
the air ( with water ) and jump on them, that will keep them away from you for
quite a while. Then it's easy, I finished that level within 3 tries. Good luck!
Asianflow schreef:
The Farcical Dave
>- The graphics: They are marginally better than Mario 64 and often
>show mistakes.
If you're saying this then you obviously haven't played Mario64 in a
long time. A friend and I put both games on side by side and there is no
comparison in the graphics, SMS far outclasses Mario64 for coloring,
detail, clarity and overall effect.
--
The Farcical Dave
The only problem with my code is the person using it.
http://www.avidgamer.co.uk
Visit the agra2 FAQ page
The Farcical Dave
>I do. The camera in SMS is the worst I have ever seen. Why doesn't the
>enviroment go transparent when it's blocking the view of the character. I
>shouldn't have to babysit the camera. It makes getting up that ferris wheel
>in Pina Park a nightmare. I also have a problem with the game not telling
>you where to go next. It makes for some very disjointed gameplay.
The game does tell you where to go next at times, that coupled with the
"Ooh, what's this?" effect means I've never not known somewhere I could
be or something I could be doing.
Getting up the Ferris Wheel was a nightmare, but that's been the only
bit I've had problems with the camera on, the rest has been fine.
As for it being too difficult, I personally found it mostly easier than
Mario 64, but I attribute that to the controls and controller rather
than the game design.
flo...@usit.net
>I bought Mario 64 well after it was released and never understood why
>critics thought it was so revolutionary. I guess by the time I had
>played it, I had played other 3D platform games that had been based
>upon the techniques developed in Mario 64 (Although I doubt that it
>was the first 3D platformer anyway...) Due to those reasons, I felt
>like I was being too hard on the game because the worst aspect of it
>was the camera, something that was definately improved with other 3rd
>person video games developed afterwards. That said, I would think
>that it's sequel, released over 6 years later, would resolve the
>biggest problems of Mario 64 but it did not. Here's a rundown on the
>issues I have with the game:
Did you enjoy Mario64 at all ? If you did then it's understandable
that you went and got the new Mario Sunshine. If you didn't really,
then I have to ask why you got Sunshine ?
>- Absolutely unacceptable camera behavior. Come on Nintendo, there's
>no excuse for the camera to STILL be this bad. In a platform game, it
>is especially important for the camera to move in a logical and
>predictable way. It is not acceptable to hide your character behind
>scenery, revolve the camera while performing an important jump, or
>move so slowly that the character moves off screen while the camera
>catches up. Yup, while I was performing a difficult jump off of a
>cliff not only did the camera suddenly swerve around Mario but when
>Mario fell he went off screen while the slowly moving camera meandered
>its way to where Mario was.
There was only about 3 times the whole game where the camera was
bothersome to me. The vast majority of the time, there is no problems
what-so-ever IMO. You still have all the controls of most 3D
platformers. And it;s exactly the way it was in Mario64. You have
total control over that camera and must be able to adjust it on the
fly. With huge open worlds and not hallway type areas, it's the only
way to do it IMO. I had very few problems adjusting the camera.
Every single 3D platformer I have ever played had camera issues here
and there. And as a fan of the genre I have played alot of them.
Play something like Blinx for the X-Box and you'll see what a bad
camera really is.
>
>The problem of scenery blocking your character's view has been
>resolved in games for years. The most common solution is for the
>interfering object to become transparent or opaque so you can see your
>surroundings. In Mario 64 you were completely out of luck, but with
>Sunshine the developers did one of the most boneheaded things I've
>ever seen in a game like this: the blocking object remains solid but
>you see a shadow of the character. Since you cannot see your
>environment the ability to see your character's shadow is absolutely
>useless. I swear, this totally comes across as if the developers were
>giving long-time fans the finger.
>
>- Jumping is just as difficult as it was in Mario 64. I'm not talking
>about how the moving camera can make controlling the jump impossible,
>I'm refering to the abundance of "alternate" -and useless- jumps that
>Mario can perform that always seem to be triggered unexpectedly. In
>the old days you pointed Mario in a direction and pressed jump. The
>faster you were running and the longer you held down the button
>determined how high Mario would jump. While in the air you were given
>a degree of freedom in controlling how he moved. These rules were
>completely trashed in Mario 64 and remain trashed in Sunshine. Now,
>Mario will often take off in a backflip or summersault in the wrong
>direction for no obvious reason. I beat Mario64 and have collected 11
>sun sprites in Sunshine and I have yet to encounter a situation where
>those abilities are useful. They were obviously added for the "wow"
>factor in bringing new moves to Mario. Please, just take them away!
It sounds like you are extremely fickle. While I unexpectedly made
Mario do certain things at times, it was really a very rare thing. And
there are times throughout the game where those moves come in handy.
It's not a gimick IMO.
>>- Like in Mario 64, the largely useless bellyslide has returned and
>uses the small red "B" button. Couldn't they have found something
>more useful for the "B" button? I miss those days of throwing
>fireballs and being able to run fast with the "B" button... But
>anyway, this feature is often annoying. Back in the old days of the
>NES, all platform games seemed standardized on button purpose but now
>it's a complete tossup on what button a developer will use for jump.
>Since I also play "Metriod Prime" (The best game ever), I am now used
>to using "B" for jump. When playing "Sunshine", I constantly hit that
>"B" button to jump out of habit only to get a stupid bellyslide. Not
>only does "B" do a bellyslide, it also allows you to talk with the
>natives of the island but ONLY when a "B" bubble appears on screen.
>So if you walk up to someone and press "B" to speak but commit the sin
>in doing so before the "B" bubble appears, you will perform a
>bellyslide.
Man, I'll have to play some more Sunshine. I can not believe you are
having so much trouble with some of these basic things. No offense is
meant. But I never had any sort of trouble with what you've just
described. Games all have different control schemes. It's something a
gamer must contend with every single time a new game is bought. I
never performed a bellyslide when going to talk to someone. I can't
believe you are having so much trouble.
>- The voices. Mario's voice was so annoying in Mario 64 that I
>sometimes turned off the audio and played a CD so I wouldn't hear him
>doing a "yippie" "woo-hoo" "waah-oh-waah-oh-waah-oh" and the rest of
>his expressions which sound like they are coming out of Mickey Mouse.
>Every time he jumps you hear Mickey Mouse say "yah!". He is a little
>less annoying than in Mario 64 though, in that game he was constantly
>giggling whenever you would screwup. This made him seem like a
>bumbling idiot or a pothead. Take your pick.
>
>- The FLUDD waterpack. I guess Miyomato got the idea that things on
>your character's backs are cool so he put a vaccum cleaner into
>Luigi's Mansion and a water jet on Mario's back. The device is
>difficult to control and upon starting it up, Mario always initially
>aims it at the ground. There's no target locking mechanism in this
>game, so the waterjet is very difficult to control. Since the camera
>is always designed to work against you, this means that you will often
>have to shot at something that you cannot see.
I'm wondering just how long you have played Sunshine. While It takes
some time to adjust to the fludd, I got the hang of it relatively
quickly. Sounds like you just couldn't get it, or gave up way to fast.
And I hardly had any trouble with using the device against critters
and bosses.
>And, boy, isn't it lucky for Mario that after a dozen adventures
>without the water pack he fortunately gets it right before he's faced
>with an adventure where, suddenly, enemies can only be defeated by
>squirting water at them? It's a good thing Bowser never thought to
>use one of those baddies in the old games otherwise he would have won!
>- The graphics: They are marginally better than Mario 64 and often
>show mistakes.
>
>- They've added new things to the Mario universe and removed old
>concepts to keep it fresh. This only works if the new stuff is good
>and the old stuff sucked, unfortunately that isn't the case. The
>new-ish jumping techniques are terrible and the FLUDD sucks. Old
>things like fast running, flying, fireballs, mushrooms to make you
>grow, classic enemies like Koopa Troopas, kicking turtleshells, and
>other things are gone. I thought that many of these were removed in
>Mario 64 due to the challenge of incorporating them into a 3D game or
>rendering the characters, but the GC has plenty of horsepower for
>those things. They did bring back some cool things like the chainlink
>fence from Super Mario World.
It's an opinion. I thought the FLUDD was alot of fun and added alot to
the game. Just shows you that opinions will vary. I like the old
school mechanics but I also like the gameplay of Mario Sunshine.
>If they would only fix the damn camera and make Mario's jumping
>behavior easy to control Nintendo would have possibly had a good game.
> Due to those problems constantly getting in the way of the gameplay I
>cannot recommend this game to anyone. Those 2 reasons alone make this
>game an absolutely miserable experience to play. A game should be
>challenging by making challenging levels, not by making play control a
>challenge!
>
I think any platformer fan MUST buy Sunshine. I cannot believe that
you had so much trouble. No offense, but it's kind of laughable to me.
flounda
Asianflow
"Shadow" <mypan...@thedrycleaners.com> wrote in message
news:FMDW9.717099$vi4....@post-02.news.easynews.com...
hence 60 shines to beat the game.
Shadow
certain number of shines, but I'm not sure. I never even attempted that
watermelon level.
Caine
I just recently bought SMS. I really want to like it and parts of it I do
but there have been so many frustrating moments for me and I'm only at 25
shines...
The graphics, sound, etc I think look/sound good but some of the stages are
very irritating (as in hard). And I agree about the camera being a problem.
Often I will position it exactly how I want it to be. As soon as I move or
jump somewhere it swivels to some other angle screwing me in the process.
This continously happened on the Pinball stage (which I'm not going to
bother trying ever again!). I find I have to adjust the camera at least
once a minute but it is usually easy to do. But sometimes it just doesn't
turn, like it's stuck on a wall or something.
If the game was less frustrating I think I would've really liked it. Right
now I'm thinking of selling it on ebay before the stress/irritation kills me
;) btw, it's the first 3d platformer I've played (the last mario I played
was the one that came with SNES, super mario world, I think?) Maybe that
has something to do with the difficulty I'm having...
Caine
Gary
Gary.
"Asianflow" <rmc...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:iZHW9.74939$H7.34...@news2.calgary.shaw.ca...
Gary
toiled on a level for ages, and then I thought - OK its just a game. Im
going to turn the lights out, sit down, calm down and play...passed the
level immediately. I think I was trying to play it the way I played Mario
World, dashing around like a mad man. This game requires more thought out
skill.
Gary.
"Caine" <cain...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b0fk26$oc17l$1...@ID-150297.news.dfncis.de...
SOA_RRU
And as ive said b4 in other posts...the cam is easy to deal with!...just
depends if your a seasoned gamer or not!...trouble with some people is they
come unstuck when they have to do more than 1 thing at once...
But each 2 their own!
"Steve" <sshe...@millenianet.com> wrote in message
news:6e616f77.03011...@posting.google.com...
Caine
news:tZIW9.1609$FE7.10...@news-text.cableinet.net...
> Give it time, you will get used to it. It needs concentration I think - I
> toiled on a level for ages, and then I thought - OK its just a game. Im
> going to turn the lights out, sit down, calm down and play...passed the
> level immediately. I think I was trying to play it the way I played Mario
> World, dashing around like a mad man. This game requires more thought out
> skill.
It seems to be the kind of game you play for 30 mins and then put it down or
you will start to hate it from the frustration. Even though it kind of
annoys me, I can't help but plug away at it everyday. That must say
something about it...maybe I'm just used to easy games, lol. Lately the
parts that are annoying me are the Red Coin stages. I can get all the coins
except one. And I never find that one !@#$ coin...I don't want to use a
cheat guide either. At least I have a bunch of places in Delfino I can
visit in case I get too mad at a stage.
Caine
dudester
about an hour or two and it just completely sucks. That stupid ass
camera and the total lack of lock-on aiming that would help to mitigate
such a stupid ass camera were the death knell for me.
I will never buy or play another Mario game ever. I have a suspicion
that I will make the same pronoucement when I get a look see at Fetus Link.
Bram
> I will never buy or play another Mario game ever. I have a suspicion
> that I will make the same pronoucement when I get a look see at Fetus Link.
You just suspect it? I think everyone around here *knows*
for sure you'll make that "pronoucement". Not that it means
anything whatsoever to us what you think.
Janne
levels I had to finish them. The camera sure, was a pain in the ass some
times, but I didn't mind. The enviroments, all beautiful, I can't see what
nintendo could have done better with that game actually. When I started
playing I though: wow this is just like mario 64, and it is, but maybe
that's the charm because even thought I felt like I'd done it all before it
didn't matter since I loved doing it again.
Now I'm waiting for Metroid prime to be released in Europe, and then after
that I'll continue with sunshine (I think it can be replayed 100's of times
without any problem)
sorry for this one-sided post, but reading all your comments really made me
remember dear old sunshine ;)
/Janne
Steve
> that you went and got the new Mario Sunshine. If you didn't really,
> then I have to ask why you got Sunshine ?
I bought it because I've been a big fan of the franchise since the
late 80s. MB and SMB were great, SMB2 was fun (but not amazing), and
SMB3 ranks up there with Metroid 3 as one of the best games of all
time. Super Mario World was a bit of a letdown but still a good game.
Besides Super Mario All-Stars, I didn't buy another of this franchise
until Mario 64 and was highly disappointed, not in the fact that it
was a 3D game but that they did it so poorly with the reasons
mentioned in the previous post. Since Mario64 came out in, I think,
96 and my biggest complaint was the camera, I assumed Nintendo would
use a better camera technique. That change alone would have made
Mario 64 a much better game. I was surprised to see how little they
improved the camera. I don't think they changed it at all.
I've noticed a lot of excuses for the camera, and one of their biggest
defenses is how you can move the camera anywhere you want. This is a
bad defense for the following reason:
Once positioned manually, the camera will often change its angle in
relation to Mario as soon as you move him.
I think a lot of players probably accept any potential design flaw as
part of the challenge of the game. I don't. I recognize what makes a
game fun and challenging to play and I also recogize how bad design
interfere with gameplay. The SMS camera is terrible! I thought
Bowser was Mario's nemesis, but apparently now it's the camera!
> Every single 3D platformer I have ever played had camera issues here
> and there. And as a fan of the genre I have played alot of them.
That's true, 3D games by their very nature will cause camera problems
at times but SMS doesn't even do things to help the player that are
found in various other games.
- For example, in many, many games objects between the character and
the camera become transparent. This simple design resolves many
camera mistakes because, no matter what, you'll always see your
character and their evironment.
- Keep the camera fixed during difficult manuvering. In places where
Mario is walking on the top of a curved wall, moving the camera does
nothing but trick the user into walking off the edge.
- Default to a view above the back of the character's head. The Zelda
camera from OOT was much better than this and it's a 4 year old game!
> It sounds like you are extremely fickle. While I unexpectedly made
> Mario do certain things at times, it was really a very rare thing. And
> there are times throughout the game where those moves come in handy.
> It's not a gimick IMO.
Jumping is a pain in the ass! I was playing one of those miniboards
last night where your FLUDD device is taken and there were numerous
spinning platforms to jump between. This could have been a lot of
fun, but several times I died because Mario performed a wild
sommersault for no reason instead of a jump. Nintendo has really
ruined the jumping aspect of this franchise.
And will someone PLEASE JUST MAKE MARIO SHUT UP? Do I really need to
hear Mickey Mouse say Yip or HA whenever he jumps?
> Man, I'll have to play some more Sunshine. I can not believe you are
> having so much trouble with some of these basic things. No offense is
> meant. But I never had any sort of trouble with what you've just
> described. Games all have different control schemes. It's something a
> gamer must contend with every single time a new game is bought. I
> never performed a bellyslide when going to talk to someone. I can't
> believe you are having so much trouble.
The bellyslide and talk use the same button, I'm really surprised that
you haven't had that problem. I guess I'm too impatient and press the
talk button before the talk bubble appears.
> I'm wondering just how long you have played Sunshine. While It takes
> some time to adjust to the fludd, I got the hang of it relatively
> quickly. Sounds like you just couldn't get it, or gave up way to fast.
> And I hardly had any trouble with using the device against critters
> and bosses.
I give up on it constantly because I usually get another game to play
instead. Then I feel like I should give Sunshine another chance and
play it a few more times before moving on again.
> It's an opinion. I thought the FLUDD was alot of fun and added alot to
> the game. Just shows you that opinions will vary. I like the old
> school mechanics but I also like the gameplay of Mario Sunshine.
I feel like it gets in the way. It's a pain to control because it
moves so slowly. Mario always defaults to shooting the ground in
front of his feet even if you are shooting immediately after shooting
an object. When fighting the fake Mario who runs all around, it's a
pain because you can't turn Mario fast enough to shoot where you need
to shoot. The sad thing is, they really made the enemies easy due to
the design flaws of the FLUDD. It doesn't take that much water to
bring any enemy down, so wouldn't it have made more sense to
incorporate a targetting system into the FLUDD and increase the
strength of the enemies?
That's the solution I would take. It would transfer the challenge
from fighting with the game's design to fighting with the enemies.
> I think any platformer fan MUST buy Sunshine. I cannot believe that
> you had so much trouble. No offense, but it's kind of laughable to me.
I hate it!
See ya
Wooh-hooh yah! Yippie!
Steve
> now I'm thinking of selling it on ebay before the stress/irritation kills me
> ;) btw, it's the first 3d platformer I've played (the last mario I played
> was the one that came with SNES, super mario world, I think?) Maybe that
> has something to do with the difficulty I'm having...
There tends to be some problems in all 3D games, but Sunshine is a
victim of bad design. It's definately in a class all by itself!
Over the years of 3D gaming, developers have improved the camera
aspects to the point where flaws can minor or disappear completely.
One of the most common techniques is to make the object between your
character and the camera transparent. That trick alone resolves most
camera problems! Other tricks is to include a weapons targetting lock
feature and special boss battle camera views. Sunshine uses none of
the techniques developed over the past 7 years of 3D platform gaming
to improve the camera! It's just as bad in Mario 64 as it is in
Sunshine.
I guess it's like the Gameboy screen. By the time the Gameboy Advance
SP is released, Nintendo will have nearly a 13 year history of selling
the protable device with an unviewable screen. They did that because
the Gameboys sold anyway. That's my explaination for Sunshine.
Mario64 sold well with all of it's flaws so why fix them?
Steve
I am probably a more seasoned gamer than most of the people on this
forum. Unlike many, I am not an apologist for bad game design. Just
because Nintendo put millions into making and advertising a game
that's part of an otherwise excellent franchise, I'm not going to say
it's A-OK for the game to show nothing but the back of some giant
background object and the shadow of my character.
Once you've played many games and have personally seen how "something"
can be done well and now that same "something" can be done poorly
you'll understand how it's justified to complain about aspects of a
game.
> come unstuck when they have to do more than 1 thing at once...
Funny statement coming from someone who can't seem to use the shift
key while typing!
> But each 2 their own!
That's true. A lot of people really do seem to enjoy the game, I just
wish the challenge came from the game and not the game's controls and
view.
Steve
> that I'll continue with sunshine (I think it can be replayed 100's of times
> without any problem)
It's an excellent game.
Since europe will be either the 2nd or 3rd market of release you
should hopefully not have to deal with the crashes that often occur in
the game at a few specific points. Your version will likely have
those bugs fixed. I suggest shaving your progress as often as you can
and whenever you collect an item your next goal should be getting to a
save point.
But judging by the apologists on the Sunshine camera problem I suppose
I should think of the fatal Metroid crashes as a fun part of the game
or just stick my head in a pile of sand and claim the crashes never
occur.
Robin Koch
> Poor skills? I just want Mario to jump the direction I press and as
> high as his speed and button press imply. This has nothing to do
> with poor skills, it's called a bad design!
It's another game and other controls. What's wrong with that? It's not SM
Bros or World or Land or whatever!
> Stand stationary and do
> nothing but jump 2 or 3 times. He jumps, then the second jump is
> higher. Why? There's no sense to that.
What's the problem? In game you can direct your character while he's in the
air! Where's there the sense?
> Why would he do an
> uncontrollable summersault instead of a normal jump when pressing to
> a direction other than to the side?
The summersault was the best of all! I actually never used the triplejump or
spiningjump. But the fact, that I could use them doesn't bother me. Why
should it?
> It was only done for the "wow"
> factor and interferes with actual game play.
Which "wow factor"?
> This is absolutely a fair complaint! Why are stoplights always
> arranged the way they are? Why Windows does software always seem to
> use Ctrl+C for copy and Ctrl+X for paste? Why do all DVD players use
> a right arrow on the play buttons? Human beings are creatures of
> habit!
But why should you buy two (or even more) games, if they are all the same?
Software isn't designed to do all the day copy&paste. It's a help. And it's
standardized. Even are DVD-Players and their buttons.
But games _are_ their conrols. Playind diferent games, only because their
characters look different?
> The FLUDD device
> Yes, it's a pain in the neck. Why is it always pointed down when you
> first begin squirting? Why won't the camera cooperate when the
> target is high in the air?
YOU should know your target, not the game! It would be horrible to me, if
FLUDD starts squirting everytime in a different direction. That's what I
would call "unexpected".
> It would have been a perfect game for the cell-shaded technique used
> in Zelda.
I don't know about this one. I think Mario universe is colorful enough.
There is no need to cel-shade that.
> But the problem is that I have no incentive to practice. My problems
> biggest complaints come from bad design (like the random camera), the
> game just isn't fun.
I didn't even see a big need to practise. Perhaps because it's my first
3D-platformer and the first Mario game after SMW I _really_ played.
And I enjoyed getting the 120 shines and especially the "retro-levels".
> I haven't enjoyed any of the levels and find them to be tired.
So don't play it.
I personally tried the summersault in Eternal Darkness. :-)
--
Robin Koch (robi...@t-online.de)
A Member of the ---> MELISSA JOAN HART <--- Fanclub Germany
http://www.thur.de/fan-mjh
Robin Koch
> I can skip this stage and still beat it? I thought there was 60
> levels = hence 60 shines to beat the game.
You need to complete the 7th story in each level (will always be the hunt
for liqiud mario), to beat Bow^W the endboss... It's not directly depending
on the count of shines you have. But defeating all the levels needed, you
have at least 57 shines. (The first one you get and 8*7 for the levels.)
Actually you can get 11 shines and 30 blue coins in each level and the
others in Plaza Delfino.
But one hint:
Try to beat other storys in other levels first. Then go back to the melons.
Perhaps you can get it then. (And kill the duck-like things before doing
anything else in this stage!)
Gary
> late 80s. MB and SMB were great, SMB2 was fun (but not amazing), and
> SMB3 ranks up there with Metroid 3 as one of the best games of all
> time. Super Mario World was a bit of a letdown but still a good game.
> Besides Super Mario All-Stars, I didn't buy another of this franchise
> until Mario 64 and was highly disappointed, not in the fact that it
> was a 3D game but that they did it so poorly with the reasons
> mentioned in the previous post. Since Mario64 came out in, I think,
> 96 and my biggest complaint was the camera, I assumed Nintendo would
> use a better camera technique. That change alone would have made
> Mario 64 a much better game. I was surprised to see how little they
> improved the camera. I don't think they changed it at all.
Again you fail to understand the physics of Mario's universe. You are a
flawed gamer, with platformers at least... The fact you thought MarioWorld
was a let down and Mario64 sucked prove it completely.
I wont go into too many details, but after reading your post you sound like
an inexperienced and somewhat incapable gamer.
Regards,
Gary.
Gary
backilt screens.
Not sure though as I never owned them.
Also the camera in Super Mario Sunshine is sweet with one flaw on the
fairground level. You obviously have difficulty in controlling it. My
girlfriend also has difficulty, she cant use an analouge stick, maybe you
suffer in this way too.
Gary.
"Steve" <sshe...@millenianet.com> wrote in message
news:6e616f77.03012...@posting.google.com...
Gary
> That's true. A lot of people really do seem to enjoy the game, I just
> wish the challenge came from the game and not the game's controls and
> view.
The challenge comes from the difficult level tasks, including those retro
levels and having to collect so many shines & red coins. The challenge
however has nothing to do with your flawed opinion regarding the camera
system.
The controls are also amazing - try understanding how to use the analogue
stick properly, learn to count to 3 so you can time your jumps and learn to
forget the controls of other "different" games.
Regards,
Gary.
russell c.
> I agree with every single thing you've said. I played the game for
> about an hour or two and it just completely sucks.
You played a game for *two hours* at a store kiosk? Didn't the other
children waiting to play get angry with you?
> I will never buy or play another Mario game ever.
You mean your mom won't buy you another Mario game?
You're not fooling anyone.
Shadow
My game has never crashed, and I'm playing it for the second time through. The
simple fact is it doesn't affect everyone.
Shadow
> > just depends if your a seasoned gamer or not!...
>
> I am probably a more seasoned gamer than most of the people on this
> forum.
Define 'seasoned'. You can't even control Mario.
>Unlike many, I am not an apologist for bad game design. Just
> because Nintendo put millions into making and advertising a game
> that's part of an otherwise excellent franchise, I'm not going to say
> it's A-OK for the game to show nothing but the back of some giant
> background object and the shadow of my character.
So center the camera behind Mario. Sheesh, there are a dozen fixes that you can
do for these 'gameplay' problems you seem to be having.
>
> Once you've played many games and have personally seen how "something"
> can be done well and now that same "something" can be done poorly
> you'll understand how it's justified to complain about aspects of a
> game.
>
>
> > come unstuck when they have to do more than 1 thing at once...
> Funny statement coming from someone who can't seem to use the shift
> key while typing!
>
>
> > But each 2 their own!
> That's true. A lot of people really do seem to enjoy the game, I just
> wish the challenge came from the game and not the game's controls and
> view.
The challenge seems to come from your lack of ability, but you seem very
reluctant to admit that.
SOA_RRU
I suppose after 24yrs+ of playing video games you could safely say im
already there then?
Anyway good thread....i always love abit of banter! ;o)
"Steve" <sshe...@millenianet.com> wrote in message
news:6e616f77.03012...@posting.google.com...
Jus
and stuff, they turn into ?'s when you get mario stuck with a crap angle.
But yes, the camera gets infuriating sometimes, especially when you are
climbing around on things and there's no room for the camera to move.
I think the game is very, very unbalanced. Some later levels take a couple
mins to finish, others take multiple, anger inducing tries. I've had to go
hunt for lives once just to make sure I had enough to finish off a
particular level, fair enough collecting lives is common, but not when the
only way I felt I could safely complete a level was to make sure I had at
least 15!
I have collected about 65 shines so far and a dragon's lair of coins, and I
can't get into a rythmn with this game.
Overall I still still think it has enough game in it to be reccomended.
"Steve" <sshe...@millenianet.com> wrote in message
news:6e616f77.03011...@posting.google.com...
Capt. Phukhead
Todd
Steve
From years of gameplay, time spent playing games and the amount of
games played. For example, an amish kid would be far less seasoned
than anyone on this board.
> Anyway good thread....i always love abit of banter! ;o)
Yes, it is fun! It's like throwing rocks at a hornet's nest. People
almost get a Taliban-like obsession over their games and stick their
heads in the sand on the idea that there can be a flaw with their
precious game. Not that I'm some troll looking for random trouble, I
do love Nintendo products and Mario games but geeze, this Sunshine
game just stinks and it didn't have to!
Happy gaming
Steve
> backilt screens.
> Not sure though as I never owned them.
Not only was the original Gameboy screen not backlit, it wasn't even
black and white. The colors were all a shade of yellowish-green. It
was awful. It was released in 1989 around the time The Simpsons began
for the Christmas season, TV Guide does reviews of video games during
the Christmas season and they said that the screen "looked liked
something a clever MIT student would have made in the 1960s". My
version even had a couple columns of dead pixels along the right edge.
To top it off, the screen blurred badly when objects moved on screen.
Around that time Sega released a hand held and NEC did as well, and
both used mini-color TV sets for the screen. The NEC handheld was
even 16bit! Even against all of that the Gameboy somehow came out
ahead. The gameboy screen was so terrible that Sega even used it in
their advertising for their handheld(Game Gear?). It's been awhile
but it shot in dark-green and yellow then he guy would hit himself on
the head to see colors.
Nintendo updated the Gameboy with Gameboy Pocket which had an actual
black and white screen. (I'm not sure if the screen was backlit) Then
they came out with the Gameboy Color which was not backlit, the screen
was so hard to see that it almost seemed like the screen absorbed
light like a black hole. Nintendo is finally, after 13 years, going
to release a backlit gameboy this spring called the Gameboy.
Nope, Gary, I'm not a seasoned gamer (he types while mockingly rolling
his eyes;)
Steve
> flawed gamer, with platformers at least...
You don't deal with much software, do you?
> The fact you thought MarioWorld
> was a let down and Mario64 sucked prove it completely.
They didn't even give Luigi a distinct appearance in Mario World!
Coming off the heels of Super Mario Bros. 3 and being the flagship
game of a brand new console, I didn't think the game lived up to
expectations. It wasn't bad, it just wasn't *amazing*. I found the
graphically-enhanced Mario 3 from Super Mario All Stars far more
impressive than Mario World in all respects.
> I wont go into too many details, but after reading your post you sound like
> an inexperienced and somewhat incapable gamer.
Thanks for the tip Gary! I'll have to keep your wisdom in mind: Any
game with a huge budget released with big fanfare on the Gamecube must
be absolutely wonderful. Any and all complaints on said game are a
direct result in having inferior gaming abilities.
Brilliant!
Steve
> with one or two flaws at certain points in the game - and remember Nintendo
> actually wanted the user to have complete control over the camera system.
Then if they want me to have control of the camera they should leave
the camera fixed in relation to Mario after I'm done setting it. It
doesn't benefit me at all to move the camera only to have the game
move it back as soon as I decide to walk.
> Also, I think you need to go back to basics and learn how to use the
> gamecube controller - it is easy to see from your post that you are a flawed
> and impatient player.
Funny, I seem to remember mentioning how good the game control was in
Metroid Prime. The designers utilized the controller to the max in
that game and they did it while keeping the game control intuitive.
Mario's control is not intuitive.
I do agree, I am in impatient player.
Steve
See www.m-w.com for definitions of words.
Which Mario? There are dozens of games with Mario in it. In Sunshine
and Mario64 I claim that the play control is poorly designed. From
what can I base this claim? From being a 'seasoned' gamer.
> So center the camera behind Mario. Sheesh, there are a dozen fixes that
> you can do for these 'gameplay' problems you seem to be having.
So, um, how exactly would a "seasoned player" such as yourself go
about making a polygon transparent that is blocking Mario from the
camera? Do you have the source code?
> The challenge seems to come from your lack of ability, but you seem very
> reluctant to admit that.
No, my challenge comes from having a large experience with games where
I've seen both great control and poor control. There's no excuse for
a major release in the Mario franchise to have flaws like those
mentioned.
Steve
> Bitterness, nothing more I see here
Yea? So?
Netherfiend
>wrong ways
>From: sshe...@millenianet.com (Steve)
>Date: 1/21/2003 3:14 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <6e616f77.03012...@posting.google.com>
>
>> Again you fail to understand the physics of Mario's universe. You are a
>> flawed gamer, with platformers at least...
>
>You don't deal with much software, do you?
What are you talking about?
Mario acts the same way in this game as in Mario 64... hitting turn around
flips, jumping higher with each jump...etc...
the only really new feature is the FLUDD
Tons of games use different interfaces anyhow
RPGs certainly have no standard. For instance... I get used to the Final
Fantasy control scheme where O is select, and X is cancel...
then in another RPG, it's reversed...
But you can't take that as a hit on the game, because if you played them in the
other order, you'd blame the second game always. It just takes some getting
used to... And if you can't get used to a new control scheme, after playing for
a little while, then i don't know what to say.
I don't think Mario Sunshine was that great either... Mario 64 was better...
but it was still a decent game. The camera certainly wasn't perfect, and i'd
have to agree with the odd non-transparent walls (i had a gripe with that in
Kingdom Hearts as well), but it wasn't terrible.
Netherfiendł
Bondo
6e616f77.03012...@posting.google.com, "Steve"
<sshe...@millenianet.com> wrote:
>> Im curious, how does one become a more seasoned gamer than most?
>
> From years of gameplay, time spent playing games and the amount of
> games played. For example, an amish kid would be far less seasoned
> than anyone on this board.
Hmm, based on this definition, by playing about 100 games last year in a
variety of genres for a variety of system...adding that to the hundreds of
games with the same variety over the past 15 years would make me about as
seasoned a gamer as there is. And having played dozens of 3D platformers
ranging from great (Rayman 2) to not great (we'll just go for recency effect
with Treasure Planet) I should certainly be trusted when I say that Mario
Sunshine's control is quite good, particularly the camera. Many 3D games I
play the camera is very unresponsive and hard to move. With Mario it moves
quickly and easily where you want it. So, this seasoned gamer says that
Mario Sunshine is underrated and challenging in all the right ways.
Okon
> > had backilt screens.
> > Not sure though as I never owned them.
>
> Not only was the original Gameboy screen not backlit, it wasn't even
> black and white. The colors were all a shade of yellowish-green. It
> was awful. It was released in 1989 around the time The Simpsons began
> for the Christmas season, TV Guide does reviews of video games during
> the Christmas season and they said that the screen "looked liked
> something a clever MIT student would have made in the 1960s". My
> version even had a couple columns of dead pixels along the right edge.
> To top it off, the screen blurred badly when objects moved on screen.
>
> Around that time Sega released a hand held and NEC did as well, and
> both used mini-color TV sets for the screen. The NEC handheld was
> even 16bit! Even against all of that the Gameboy somehow came out
> ahead. The gameboy screen was so terrible that Sega even used it in
> their advertising for their handheld(Game Gear?). It's been awhile
> but it shot in dark-green and yellow then he guy would hit himself on
> the head to see colors.
Atari also had a much superior handheld, (colour and backlit LCD screen),
called the Lynx. The original green-screen Gameboy blew this away too!
> Nintendo updated the Gameboy with Gameboy Pocket which had an actual
> black and white screen. (I'm not sure if the screen was backlit)
The original Gameboy Pockets were not backlit, but Nintendo did a special
Silver version later which was backlit.
> Then they came out with the Gameboy Color which was not backlit, the
> screen was so hard to see that it almost seemed like the screen absorbed
> light like a black hole. Nintendo is finally, after 13 years, going
> to release a backlit gameboy this spring called the Gameboy.
...Advance SP
> Nope, Gary, I'm not a seasoned gamer (he types while mockingly rolling
> his eyes;)
Nah, neither am I! :-)
Shadow
I wanted your definition, not the actual one.
> Which Mario? There are dozens of games with Mario in it. In Sunshine
> and Mario64 I claim that the play control is poorly designed. From
> what can I base this claim? From being a 'seasoned' gamer.
Again, define seasoned. You sound like one piss-poor player.
>
>
> > So center the camera behind Mario. Sheesh, there are a dozen fixes that
> > you can do for these 'gameplay' problems you seem to be having.
>
> So, um, how exactly would a "seasoned player" such as yourself go
> about making a polygon transparent that is blocking Mario from the
> camera? Do you have the source code?
It's rather obvious I was talking about moving the camera rather than editing
the game code.
>
>
> > The challenge seems to come from your lack of ability, but you seem very
> > reluctant to admit that.
>
> No, my challenge comes from having a large experience with games where
> I've seen both great control and poor control. There's no excuse for
> a major release in the Mario franchise to have flaws like those
> mentioned.
Except what you perceive as a flaw is just your inability and lack of hand/eye
coordination. Having the jump function mapped to the A button is not a game
flaw. You pressing the wrong button and moving awkwardly are not game flaws.
JD44C8/USA
> Bitterness, nothing more I see here
A 122-line post for just this? Please quote more judiciously. Thanks.
--
JD44C8/USA
Gene Poole
I didn't think it stunk at all...I found it to be more of a sequel to
SM64 than anything, and I found that to be a good thing, as it built on
SM64, using similar skills...I also found it to have something many
Mario games have been missing since SMW: challenge, and that was good.
...to me at least.
YMMV
--
Gene Poole
Signature sold separately.
Seaforth
>
> Asianflow <rmc...@shaw.ca> schrieb:
>
> > I can skip this stage and still beat it? I thought there was 60
> > levels = hence 60 shines to beat the game.
>
> You need to complete the 7th story in each level (will always be the hunt
> for liqiud mario), to beat Bow^W the endboss... It's not directly depending
> on the count of shines you have. But defeating all the levels needed, you
> have at least 57 shines. (The first one you get and 8*7 for the levels.)
> Actually you can get 11 shines and 30 blue coins in each level and the
> others in Plaza Delfino.
>
> But one hint:
> Try to beat other storys in other levels first. Then go back to the melons.
> Perhaps you can get it then. (And kill the duck-like things before doing
> anything else in this stage!)
You can kill them?
How?
They always aright themselves, for me.
Danoot
Seaforth
>
> Once positioned manually, the camera will often change its angle in
> relation to Mario as soon as you move him.
The only time I had a problem with the camera is when I wanted to jump
off the top of the windmill, in.. that village. Which served no purpose,
I just wanted to do it. Ah well. Even the ferris wheel was ok (I had
trouble with the level because I sucked at it, but I didn't with the
camera).
There are certain areas of the game where the camera is moved to a
fixed viewpoint - like climbing the windmill. I don't like it, but
you know where they are, and they never show up (that I noticed), say,
half a second into a leap into space. They often show up *before* a
jump, but then they always show you where to go.
> - Keep the camera fixed during difficult manuvering. In places where
> Mario is walking on the top of a curved wall, moving the camera does
> nothing but trick the user into walking off the edge.
See above - they do do that.
> The bellyslide and talk use the same button, I'm really surprised that
> you haven't had that problem. I guess I'm too impatient and press the
> talk button before the talk bubble appears.
You can't talk when you're moving. You have to be standing still. So,
yes, if you press it while you run at someone, then you'll slide. But
if you stand in front of them, you can talk.
> When fighting the fake Mario who runs all around, it's a
> pain because you can't turn Mario fast enough to shoot where you need
> to shoot.
You're meant to chase him - when you press r, but not all the way down,
you move normally, but with water - and you can move it damn fast in
that mode, too.
> The sad thing is, they really made the enemies easy due to
> the design flaws of the FLUDD. It doesn't take that much water to
> bring any enemy down, so wouldn't it have made more sense to
> incorporate a targetting system into the FLUDD and increase the
> strength of the enemies?
Targeting systems suck - if the fludd had one, it would be the worst
thing ever. Ever plaid eternal darkness, and had your weapon locked
on the third zombie in line? So you can't hurt the two that are
actually clawing your eyes out? Yeah.
Danoot
Gene Poole
sand dunes.
they get hurt aftr falling great distances.
or, lure them into the water through the docks, where they dissipate
into paint.
--
Gene Poole
This message is SHAREWARE! To Register, send $5.
Seaforth
Ta - I did the watermelon level anyway, it wasn't very hard, but if
I replay, I will kill them all for being shit and bouncing me too
much.
Danoot
Mortis
> Nintendo updated the Gameboy with Gameboy Pocket which had an actual
> black and white screen. (I'm not sure if the screen was backlit) Then
> they came out with the Gameboy Color which was not backlit, the screen
> was so hard to see that it almost seemed like the screen absorbed
> light like a black hole. Nintendo is finally, after 13 years, going
> to release a backlit gameboy this spring called the Gameboy.
Sorry to nit pick but the SP screen is front-lit aka Afterburner.
Earlier you said;
"I guess it's like the Gameboy screen. By the time the Gameboy Advance
SP is released, Nintendo will have nearly a 13 year history of selling
the protable device with an unviewable screen. They did that because
the Gameboys sold anyway. That's my explaination for Sunshine.
Mario64 sold well with all of it's flaws so why fix them?"
But if the Gameboy Advance are still selling well (which AFAIK it is)
then why are Nintendo releasing the SP with a lit-screen?
FWIW I agree with you on a few points. The camera could be improved
although I'm not sure if I can think of a game with a floating camera
which is leaps and bounds above Mario's and the non-tranparent objects
are quite a glaring mistake. Apart from those issues I really like the
game.
--
Mortis
[Insert sig here]
Robin Koch
> You can kill them?
> How?
Get them near the plants and spray at those.
--
Robin Koch (robi...@t-online.de)
A Member of the ---> MELISSA JOAN HART <--- Fanclub Germany
http://www.thur.de/fan-mjh
Steve
> variety of genres for a variety of system...adding that to the hundreds of
> games with the same variety over the past 15 years would make me about as
> seasoned a gamer as there is.
Let me get this straight, you played about 100 games last year? I
hope for your sake that you're lying! If it's true, that's a sad
thing to brag about:
GO OUTSIDE.
Either day, it definately doesn't discredit this seasoned gamers
opinion. The jumping control is pathetic. And don't get me started
on the goofy way Mario runs in that "S" pattern!
Bondo
6e616f77.03012...@posting.google.com, "Steve"
<sshe...@millenianet.com> wrote:
Now some of these games I played for an hour some for five, only a few dozen
for double digits...I don't play games for more than an hour a day on
average. Still, I don't have trouble with the simplest of controls like you
seem to. The question isn't if you are a seasoned gamer or not...it is if
you have the basic motor skills of a normal human being.
Steve
> for double digits...I don't play games for more than an hour a day on
> average.
So you spend an hour a day per year and play over 100 games in that
duration. Hum...That averages out to about 3 1/2 hours per game.
With the increased complexity of almost all sources of video games
from Gameboy, consoles, to the PC you can't possibly be completing
those games or even getting true mastery of any of those games. At
best, you'd have only a superficial experience with any of them. (The
idea of your playing a dozen small games for 10 seconds or so to make
up for the time hog a game like Metroid is an amusing thought though)
Your math just doesn't add up. Either you've exaggerated the number
of games you played last year by, say, several dozen, or play a heck
of a lot more than an hour a day. Even a simple game like Window's
Minesweeper would take a couple hours to master really well.
> Still, I don't have trouble with the simplest of controls like you
> seem to.
I know you don't! According to your own math, you can't possibly play
any game long enough to be bothered with _anything_ in that game!
Bondo
6e616f77.03012...@posting.google.com, "Steve"
<sshe...@millenianet.com> wrote:
>> Now some of these games I played for an hour some for five, only a few dozen
>> for double digits...I don't play games for more than an hour a day on
>> average.
>
> So you spend an hour a day per year and play over 100 games in that
> duration. Hum...That averages out to about 3 1/2 hours per game.
> With the increased complexity of almost all sources of video games
> from Gameboy, consoles, to the PC you can't possibly be completing
> those games or even getting true mastery of any of those games. At
> best, you'd have only a superficial experience with any of them. (The
> idea of your playing a dozen small games for 10 seconds or so to make
> up for the time hog a game like Metroid is an amusing thought though)
>
> Your math just doesn't add up. Either you've exaggerated the number
> of games you played last year by, say, several dozen, or play a heck
> of a lot more than an hour a day. Even a simple game like Window's
> Minesweeper would take a couple hours to master really well.
Would you really spend more than an hour playing a game like 18-Wheeler?
Plus there are a dozen or so crappy PS2 games (in addition to the few dozen
crappy GCN games) that I played that just don't demand more than an hour or
two. As for Metroid, I only played that for 2 hours. And perhaps I
underestimate and 90 minutes to 2 hours would be right, but it isn't much
more than that. And I know I played 100 games give or take 5 or 10, I keep
records of such things. If I was bothered enough to count I could tell you
exactly.