Use Of Mouse?
BAC
any of the tombraiders?
Cookiebear
"BAC" <arctu...@home.com> wrote in message
news:aLX98.26429$nI1.1...@news1.wwck1.ri.home.com...
> Am I a complete idiot or is it not possible to set up mouse and
keyboard in
> any of the tombraiders?
>
>
Noo, that's not really possible. Sorry. Maybe in TR next gen. ;-)
-Cookiebear
BBocquin
Please don't take this the wrong way, but I'm just curious.
What use would have the mouse be? targeting? pointing to pick-ups?
Dragon Emperor
news:1Bka8.1527$Nv5.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> What use would have the mouse be? targeting? pointing to pick-ups?
A lot of third-person shooters on PC use mouse and keyboard. Moving the
mouse can simply be used as Mouse-Look, like in first-person shooters,
and the buttons can do lots of different things. PC's usually make
these things configurable in just about any conceivable way.
TR got hosed in this department because of it's need to run on consoles
as well.
-- Carl
Arthur Green
<carl_j...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>"BBocquin" <b.bo...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>news:1Bka8.1527$Nv5.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>> What use would have the mouse be? targeting? pointing to pick-ups?
>
>A lot of third-person shooters on PC use mouse and keyboard. Moving the
>mouse can simply be used as Mouse-Look, like in first-person shooters,
>and the buttons can do lots of different things. PC's usually make
>these things configurable in just about any conceivable way.
>
Oni springs to mind (allegedly TRish, released for PC and PS2 (and
Mac?)). A lot of functionality built into a mouse, two mouse buttons
and maybe half a dozen keys.
>TR got hosed in this department because of it's need to run on consoles
>as well.
>
I gather this shouldn't be a problem for PS2s and Xboxes and so on.
>-- Carl
>
- AG
Cookiebear
"BBocquin" <b.bo...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:1Bka8.1527$Nv5.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
>
> What use would have the mouse be? targeting? pointing to pick-ups?
>
>
Having a look around. And checking out Lara. ;-) Of course. ;-)
And if Lara moves fast, and not like the good ship Lara in the new one, then
it could be much better for controlling movement.
-Cookiebear
snark^
warbled on about "Re: Use Of Mouse?" in alt.games.tombraider <<=
> Please don't take this the wrong way, but I'm just curious.
>
> What use would have the mouse be? targeting? pointing to pick-ups?
Point and shoot. No more lame auto-aim. The mouse would basically take
the place of the freelook (numpad insert0 key) -- Lara would look, aim and
shoot at wherever you point the xhair. Plenty of PC games have done it;
Operation Flashpoint, FAKK2, Drakan, Severance and Max Payne to name a few
and they've all made TR look decidedly doddery in comparison.
Man, I've ranted about the lack of mouse support in TR so much that even
I'm beginning to get a little tired of it... :)
--
|\ .---. alt.games.tombraider micro-UFAQ2 (the
L .\\ </_\\\\ Ultra-Frequently Asked Questions v2)
:/>` (|'|'|)
A Y/\ \_-_/| 1) There is no nude code. Get a life.
\ \ ___/' \_\_ 2) TRC Old Mill: hole on roof -- either
R \ \.--'' /\ /\ \ crawl back into it pressing Action or
\__.--'(_ \Y/ _)\ \'-._ tumble forward into it by using Jump.
A )" ""| \ \-._'-. 3) TRC savegame problem?: run the game
,-,-< _ / / / '-.\ from the hard disk and not the CDROM.
/~/-._[_]--/ / / || 4) TRC savegame bugs: for ways to avoid
C |_|_ _,`-|~\/_/ \| them check out the walkthroughs at:
| `-/ \___\/|\` http://tombraiders.net/stella, and
R | | \ \/ http://trinity.westhost.com/tomb/
| | `. \ 5) TRC Sub: *walk* up behind the cook.
O | | \ \ 6) TRLR: the 'Prima Strategy Guide' is
|__| \__\ wrong -- no revolver in the Coastal
F |= | \ =\ Ruins; use the crossbow instead.
|= | \ =\ 7) There is no nude code for the TR
T /= | DrS. | =\__ movie either...
|___| snark^ \_____)
Erik Steffl
>
> =>> The runes were cast, the portents thundered and then "BBocquin"
> warbled on about "Re: Use Of Mouse?" in alt.games.tombraider <<=
>
> > Please don't take this the wrong way, but I'm just curious.
> >
> > What use would have the mouse be? targeting? pointing to pick-ups?
>
> Point and shoot. No more lame auto-aim. The mouse would basically take
> the place of the freelook (numpad insert0 key) -- Lara would look, aim and
> shoot at wherever you point the xhair. Plenty of PC games have done it;
> Operation Flashpoint, FAKK2, Drakan, Severance and Max Payne to name a few
> and they've all made TR look decidedly doddery in comparison.
>
> Man, I've ranted about the lack of mouse support in TR so much that even
> I'm beginning to get a little tired of it... :)
IMO the auto-aim makes perfect sense in Lara game. I find aiming by
mouse anoying. also, auto-aim is used to show you where the enemy is if
lara can see it even if you (camera) cannot see it... that way the
camera problems are not that problematic (and camera is NEVER perfect in
third person games).
auto-aim is better approximation of how person behaves in real life -
you can look where you are running and shoot in other direction, with
mouse aim it's not possible (therefore it prevents immersion), it's even
worse in third person view than in FPS, because your view (camera view)
is not even looking in the same direction where the game character is
looking.
erik
Mustang
news:3C6CF35C...@bigfoot.com...
> auto-aim is better approximation of how person behaves in real life -
> you can look where you are running and shoot in other direction, with
> mouse aim it's not possible (therefore it prevents immersion), it's even
> worse in third person view than in FPS, because your view (camera view)
> is not even looking in the same direction where the game character is
> looking.
>
> erik
You can shoot in one direction and move in another with mouse aiming. You
just use the strafe keys in combination with forwards and backwards. It does
tend to limit you to 8 directions, though.
The TR system is okay, but I would like a little more control over the
shooting. It's a bit too simplified.
-Mustang Silver
Top Hat
>
> Point and shoot. No more lame auto-aim. The mouse would basically take
> the place of the freelook (numpad insert0 key) -- Lara would look, aim and
> shoot at wherever you point the xhair.
Why do we need to use the mouse for looking? The Ins key already does this
just fine.
As for using the mouse for point-and-shoot... no, no, no! This would be fine
if you want to take Tomb Raider in the direction of a typical shoot 'em up
action type game. But the whole point of Tomb Raider is that the
adventure/puzzle aspects are the *most* important, the combat less so.
Introducing mouse-aim would shift the balance firmly in the other direction.
Personally I absolutely can *not* be arsed to play games where I have to use
the mouse to aim in difficult combat sequences, and will stop playing Tomb
Raider if this is introduced. If you want to do this, there are literally
hundreds of games out there which already provide it.. why on earth
introduce such a feature to Tomb Raider???? IMO it would destroy everthing
that makes TR special...
> Plenty of PC games have done it;
> Operation Flashpoint, FAKK2, Drakan, Severance and Max Payne to name a few
> and they've all made TR look decidedly doddery in comparison.
>
I've played most of these games and became quickly bored. Max Payne is
basically a shooter. Even Drakan (which attempted to emulate TR with its
female lead and adventure aspects) started to bore me by Level 2 when it was
apparant that the poor girl wasn't going to be allowed to turn a single
corner without being set upon my hordes of tedious "enemies" requiring
repetitive hand-to-hand combat!
I know this argument has raged long and hard on this NG, but I say: let's
have more adventure, better puzzles, new Lara animations (the only thing
about TR which is still ahead of *all* competition), and less COMBAT!
Thanks for allowing me to rant :o)
Mustang
news:101379536...@eos.uk.clara.net...
<snip>
>
> Thanks for allowing me to rant :o)
You're welcome. It's not like I could stop you ;-)
As for the mouse thing, I guess they could do an option.
Manual/mouse-aiming, or classic auto-aiming. Depending how the combat will
go, that might be feasible. The Project Eden demo was fairly puzzle-based,
with little combat, but the mouse was quite handy for looking around freely
(and not having to stop to look around, etc), and it lended itself fairly
well to the style of the gameplay, which is similar to TR.
Not that I dislike TRs controls, though. Well, the mouse is good usually,
but it always feels a bit weird from third person perspectives.
-Mustang Silver
Erik Steffl
>
> "Erik Steffl" <ste...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> news:3C6CF35C...@bigfoot.com...
> > auto-aim is better approximation of how person behaves in real life -
> > you can look where you are running and shoot in other direction, with
> > mouse aim it's not possible (therefore it prevents immersion), it's even
> > worse in third person view than in FPS, because your view (camera view)
> > is not even looking in the same direction where the game character is
> > looking.
> >
> > erik
>
> You can shoot in one direction and move in another with mouse aiming. You
> just use the strafe keys in combination with forwards and backwards. It does
> tend to limit you to 8 directions, though.
with mouse aiming you have to look to where you're shooting and
moving/walking is usually pretty limited (depends on game but most often
you can go fwd/back in the _same_ direction where the aim is and strafe
left/right). you have only one view and it cannot be changed easily so
overall it feels very slow compared to moving in real life, it feels
restrictive. character doing some mechanical stuff automatically helps
to bring the level of 'controlability' closer to what we're used to in
real life.
using auto-aim you can run around and shoot at the same time and it
feels fairly 'natural' - IMO that's one of the reasons why TR is such a
good game - it is fairly easy to control, but it's still challenging
(and interesting) to play.
> The TR system is okay, but I would like a little more control over the
> shooting. It's a bit too simplified.
well, I guess for the people who prefer aiming themselves they could
have mouse aiming (IIRC in some TR games you can switch auto-aim off, I
never do it so I'm not 100% if it's really there, I don't know how it
works either).
urban chaos has similar system but auto aiming only works in certain
range so by turning around you can switch targets, no mouse auto-aim
though.
erik
Gary Mitchell
> I know this argument has raged long and hard on this NG, but I say: let's
> have more adventure, better puzzles, new Lara animations (the only thing
> about TR which is still ahead of *all* competition), and less COMBAT!
>
> Thanks for allowing me to rant :o)
I for one couldn't agree more. :)
-- G
McGrandpa [AGQx]
"Gary Mitchell" <wb6...@ix.nospam.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3C6E259D...@ix.nospam.netcom.com...
YUP!
McG.
Mustang
> Mustang wrote:
> >
> > You can shoot in one direction and move in another with mouse aiming.
You
> > just use the strafe keys in combination with forwards and backwards. It
does
> > tend to limit you to 8 directions, though.
>
> with mouse aiming you have to look to where you're shooting and
> moving/walking is usually pretty limited (depends on game but most often
> you can go fwd/back in the _same_ direction where the aim is and strafe
> left/right). you have only one view and it cannot be changed easily so
> overall it feels very slow compared to moving in real life, it feels
> restrictive. character doing some mechanical stuff automatically helps
> to bring the level of 'controlability' closer to what we're used to in
> real life.
But while you can only run in the direction you're aiming, you can keep
tapping the strafe keys to move a little in another direction.
I don't think it feels slow, though. That's a problem with TR - in tight,
twist passages. You can't see around the corner, and you have to run a bit,
stop, run a bit more to the next corner, stop, and it's not easy to see
what's coming up, due to the camera. With mouse control, you can look in the
direction of the corner as you approach it, and then strafe round the
corner, so you're immediately looking in the right direction. It certainly
has it's advantages.
> using auto-aim you can run around and shoot at the same time and it
> feels fairly 'natural' - IMO that's one of the reasons why TR is such a
> good game - it is fairly easy to control, but it's still challenging
> (and interesting) to play.
Well, I disagree. The TR method is a bit 'stiff', in that it's difficult to
be accurate, sometimes, and it's not as fluid as mouse control can be. You
can't quickly turn to face the direction you want to face, and so on. You're
limited by the digital control style. The beauty of mouse control is that
you can turn as slowly or quickly as you want, and it soon becomes natural
and easy to snap your view 90 degrees to the left, etc.
Anyway, I'm not complaining about the TR system, because I like it; it
works, and it's not at all bad, and I think TR itself is better off as it
is. It's just that mouse control is generally better, and that may be the
case for TRNG. It may not be better if you're new to mouse control, no, but
it soon becomes second nature.
> > The TR system is okay, but I would like a little more control over the
> > shooting. It's a bit too simplified.
>
> well, I guess for the people who prefer aiming themselves they could
> have mouse aiming (IIRC in some TR games you can switch auto-aim off, I
> never do it so I'm not 100% if it's really there, I don't know how it
> works either).
I think it just involves tapping the look key to select your target, and
that's basically it. Not exactly very *manual*.
-Mustang Silver
Erik Steffl
>
> "Erik Steffl" <ste...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> news:3C6E0D12...@bigfoot.com...
> > Mustang wrote:
> > >
> > > You can shoot in one direction and move in another with mouse aiming.
> You
> > > just use the strafe keys in combination with forwards and backwards. It
> does
> > > tend to limit you to 8 directions, though.
> >
> > with mouse aiming you have to look to where you're shooting and
> > moving/walking is usually pretty limited (depends on game but most often
> > you can go fwd/back in the _same_ direction where the aim is and strafe
> > left/right). you have only one view and it cannot be changed easily so
> > overall it feels very slow compared to moving in real life, it feels
> > restrictive. character doing some mechanical stuff automatically helps
> > to bring the level of 'controlability' closer to what we're used to in
> > real life.
>
> But while you can only run in the direction you're aiming, you can keep
> tapping the strafe keys to move a little in another direction.
> I don't think it feels slow, though. That's a problem with TR - in tight,
in TR you can run away or around the prey while jumping (dodging
bullets), doing twists etc. and still shooting the bastards (or those
cute dogs), you can run away a bit then run closer depending on what
they do. in FPS you cannot do anything even close to that. your view is
fixed on the target, you cannot move your viewport anywhere else, you
can move, in a limited way, but you cannot see where you are going
unless you are going towards the target (that's what I call slow,
changing where you look, the actual running might be fast).
> twist passages. You can't see around the corner, and you have to run a bit,
> stop, run a bit more to the next corner, stop, and it's not easy to see
> what's coming up, due to the camera. With mouse control, you can look in the
> direction of the corner as you approach it, and then strafe round the
> corner, so you're immediately looking in the right direction. It certainly
> has it's advantages.
that's why the auto-aim is so good - you cannot see there but Lara
can! and she aims and you can shoot straight away. It is not exactly
like in real life but it provides basically same functionality and IMO
that's important.
also, urban chaos has few nice features that help:
you can hit action key and d'arci (main character, police woman)
'glues' herself to the wall (back to the wall) and when you move close
to the corner she peeks a little bit - camera moves so that you can see
what's behind the corner. I don't use it much, I prefer running and
shooting whatever is in sight:-) but it comes handy in few places when I
expect BIG guys around the corner.
another good feature is that you can control camera:
- center camera behind d'arci's back so you see exactly what she sees
(doesn't work well in very small spaces)
- 'circle' camera to the left or right (d'arci is the center of the
circle)
there's also the first person view, the same way Lara does it (you
cannot move while using first person view)
> > using auto-aim you can run around and shoot at the same time and it
> > feels fairly 'natural' - IMO that's one of the reasons why TR is such a
> > good game - it is fairly easy to control, but it's still challenging
> > (and interesting) to play.
>
> Well, I disagree. The TR method is a bit 'stiff', in that it's difficult to
> be accurate, sometimes, and it's not as fluid as mouse control can be. You
> can't quickly turn to face the direction you want to face, and so on. You're
> limited by the digital control style. The beauty of mouse control is that
> you can turn as slowly or quickly as you want, and it soon becomes natural
> and easy to snap your view 90 degrees to the left, etc.
it's true that you can change the speed of movement easily when using
mouse...
but what do you mean it's difficult to be accurate? with auto-aim you
don't have to be accurate when shooting, and when running around it's
not that imporant - only on the edges where you can use shift to make
sure you don't fall down.
> Anyway, I'm not complaining about the TR system, because I like it; it
> works, and it's not at all bad, and I think TR itself is better off as it
> is. It's just that mouse control is generally better, and that may be the
> case for TRNG. It may not be better if you're new to mouse control, no, but
> it soon becomes second nature.
well, I play some games that use mouse but still don't like it. I also
find mouse being worse for my hands - they become tired a lot faster.
I'll have to wait till the data gloves are commonplace...
I am not complete keyboard zealot though: for some games the gamepad
is better, e.g. driving games (my latest re-discovered passion! I used
to play driving games back on atari 800XL:-) are basically impossible to
play using keyboard. I just don't see eye to eye, err... wait, none of
my mouses/mice have eyes! that might be a problem...
> > > The TR system is okay, but I would like a little more control over the
> > > shooting. It's a bit too simplified.
> >
> > well, I guess for the people who prefer aiming themselves they could
> > have mouse aiming (IIRC in some TR games you can switch auto-aim off, I
> > never do it so I'm not 100% if it's really there, I don't know how it
> > works either).
>
> I think it just involves tapping the look key to select your target, and
> that's basically it. Not exactly very *manual*.
:-)
regardless of what anybody thinks is right I guess they should make it
an option if lot of people want it, it's more important a game to be fun
than to be 'right' (whatever 'right' is:-). however, it might be
challenging to design the game so that it's playable both ways - the
mouse and keyboard controls require somewhat different playing style...
erik
Mustang
> Mustang wrote:
> >
> > But while you can only run in the direction you're aiming, you can keep
> > tapping the strafe keys to move a little in another direction.
> > I don't think it feels slow, though. That's a problem with TR - in
tight,
>
> in TR you can run away or around the prey while jumping (dodging
> bullets), doing twists etc. and still shooting the bastards (or those
> cute dogs), you can run away a bit then run closer depending on what
> they do. in FPS you cannot do anything even close to that. your view is
> fixed on the target, you cannot move your viewport anywhere else, you
> can move, in a limited way, but you cannot see where you are going
> unless you are going towards the target (that's what I call slow,
> changing where you look, the actual running might be fast).
I was talking about it in more of a movement way, than a fighting way. And
anyway, when Lara does target a bad guy, the camera looks at it - hence, you
can't see where you're running. So it's not all that much better.
I like the ability to run/jump past a bad guy, and do a flip, yeah.
Mouse-controlled games aren't that bad, though, as you can do a 180 in
basically no time at all.
Well, one major driving factor is multiplayer. You couldn't really do it
with TR and that control style, as there's little skill involved in a fight.
Just running/jumping about and shooting. No aiming to be done, as such.
Mouse-controlled games at least bring more of an element of player skill
into it.
> also, urban chaos has few nice features that help:
>
> you can hit action key and d'arci (main character, police woman)
> 'glues' herself to the wall (back to the wall) and when you move close
> to the corner she peeks a little bit - camera moves so that you can see
> what's behind the corner. I don't use it much, I prefer running and
> shooting whatever is in sight:-) but it comes handy in few places when I
> expect BIG guys around the corner.
That sounds just like Metal Gear Solid. You push against a wall and Snake
(main character) put his back against it. Then you can shuffle along, and if
you get near a corner, the camera changes to let you see round it. Pretty
useful.
> another good feature is that you can control camera:
>
> - center camera behind d'arci's back so you see exactly what she sees
> (doesn't work well in very small spaces)
> - 'circle' camera to the left or right (d'arci is the center of the
> circle)
Sounds like a typical Nintendo platform games, there. Helpful if the game
needs it. Would fit into Tomb Raider okay, I think, although the camera
position being fixed behind Lara is okay for that, anyway.
> > Well, I disagree. The TR method is a bit 'stiff', in that it's difficult
to
> > be accurate, sometimes, and it's not as fluid as mouse control can be.
You
> > can't quickly turn to face the direction you want to face, and so on.
You're
> > limited by the digital control style. The beauty of mouse control is
that
> > you can turn as slowly or quickly as you want, and it soon becomes
natural
> > and easy to snap your view 90 degrees to the left, etc.
>
> it's true that you can change the speed of movement easily when using
> mouse...
I always have it quite sensitive. Didn't used to, but I do now I'm quite
proficient :)
> but what do you mean it's difficult to be accurate? with auto-aim you
> don't have to be accurate when shooting, and when running around it's
> not that imporant - only on the edges where you can use shift to make
> sure you don't fall down.
I mean in terms of where you're heading. Lining up for a jump is an example.
Again, I don't mean fighting, just general movement. Well, another example
might be to line up to shoot something, like those lions' heads in TLR.
Forever tapping left or right trying to get Lara to turn the right amount.
With a mouse, it's easy.
> well, I play some games that use mouse but still don't like it. I also
> find mouse being worse for my hands - they become tired a lot faster.
> I'll have to wait till the data gloves are commonplace...
Well, if I play keyboard games for too long, I get hand ache. Even
first-person shooters, my left hand aches, but my right is fine (on the
mouse). Always been that way. Helps having a wrist-rest, but I still get
hand ache after a while.
> regardless of what anybody thinks is right I guess they should make it
> an option if lot of people want it, it's more important a game to be fun
> than to be 'right' (whatever 'right' is:-). however, it might be
> challenging to design the game so that it's playable both ways - the
> mouse and keyboard controls require somewhat different playing style...
>
> erik
Yep, I agree. If it's possible to have both, include both. It definitely
won't be mouse only, though, as the game is coming out on the PS2.
-Mustang Silver
Dragon Emperor
message news:VUPb8.65822$as2.11...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> Just running/jumping about and shooting. No aiming to be done, as
such.
> Mouse-controlled games at least bring more of an element of player
skill
> into it.
One thing I like about mouse-shooters is "leading" your aim so that
weapons that take time to get to the target will hit them when they get
there. At least you hope they will.
Some explosive weapons allow you to just aim at a nearby surface to give
a target that's hiding around a corner (hence no auto-aim possible)
splatter damage.
-- Carl
snark^
> Not that I dislike TRs controls, though. Well, the mouse is good usually,
> but it always feels a bit weird from third person perspectives.
I've got used to it now through playing a heap of Operation Flashpoint. It
can still see a little weird seeing the character turn to aim on screen
because you start to mentally adjust your aim to whatever you percive them
as pointing at -- once you can stop doing this you're fine.
The good thing about flashpoint of course is that the xhair isn't stuck to
the middle of the screen -- there's a small invisible box that you can move
it around in and you only turn when it reaches the edge. Gives a looser
feel to the aiming process.
--
Perspective -- Use it or Lose it.
snark^
> Why do we need to use the mouse for looking? The Ins key already does this
> just fine.
Because it's awkward and the mouse is far more flexible in this regard.
Project Eden showed how cool it was to use a mouse in a similar gameplay
style.
> As for using the mouse for point-and-shoot... no, no, no! This would be fine
> if you want to take Tomb Raider in the direction of a typical shoot 'em up
> action type game. But the whole point of Tomb Raider is that the
> adventure/puzzle aspects are the *most* important, the combat less so.
Aiming by mouse would _reduce_ the blast-em-all side of the game -- as it's
harder to hit things by yourself the designers would therefore have to
reduce the amount of enemies encountered and the amount of lead you have to
pump into them to take them down.
--
I used up all my sick days, now I'm calling in dead.
snark^
> IMO the auto-aim makes perfect sense in Lara game. I find aiming by
> mouse anoying. also, auto-aim is used to show you where the enemy is if
> lara can see it even if you (camera) cannot see it... that way the
> camera problems are not that problematic (and camera is NEVER perfect in
> third person games).
Aiming by mouse does take a bit off skill, but it's easily enough learnt.
The auto-lock that allows you to keep track of an enemy when they disappear
behind a wall of foliage is bozoid in the extreme and utterly unrealistic.
It should go (they did remove some aspects of it in TRLR).
> auto-aim is better approximation of how person behaves in real life -
So all those soldiers you see in every modern TV-warzone have auto-aim
built into their fancy helmets? Don't think so, Eric. The US DoD and UK
MoD would have overspent by even more than usual if they did so.
> you can look where you are running and shoot in other direction, with
> mouse aim it's not possible (therefore it prevents immersion), it's even
> worse in third person view than in FPS, because your view (camera view)
> is not even looking in the same direction where the game character is
> looking.
Aw that's just rubbish regards immersion! No one ever shoots in a
direction they're not looking in. When Lara doesn't have a gun in hand she
would just look around using the mouse like she does now with the freelook
key -- with a gun in hand it would be the same except she'd be sighting
along it. You could have her running along easily enough while swinging
the mouse around to have her head(view) turn and check all those nasty
little nooks and crannies for traps/blastables as she passes.
The auto-aim is lame and reduces the gunplay aspect of the TR series to
little more than a blip in the player's progress -- there's no gunfight in
the game which is difficult at all. A good reason for including mouse-aim
would be to make the combat as much of a challenge as the puzzle solving or
gymnastic (on Lara's part at least) requirement.
Project Eden showed it could be done. It might have lacked in heaps of
other areas re:gameplay but as a technology demonstration of how 3rdPP
games can use the mouse it was great. Rather than have the xhair fixed
statically in the middle of the screen they allowed it a little leeway in
movement before the character turned to follow, which makes the character
appear to move is a more realistic way -- Operation Flashpoint also does
this.
--
Dolphins do it on porpoise.
Mustang
news:a4p1kd$d6s$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net...
> "Mustang" <I'llShootSpammersWi...@ntlworld.com> wrote in
> message news:VUPb8.65822$as2.11...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> > Just running/jumping about and shooting. No aiming to be done, as
> such.
> > Mouse-controlled games at least bring more of an element of player
> skill
> > into it.
>
> One thing I like about mouse-shooters is "leading" your aim so that
> weapons that take time to get to the target will hit them when they get
> there. At least you hope they will.
Yep. Particularly so with any weapon in Operation Flashpoint. Less so with
any other game, unless it's a rocket launcher affair :)
> Some explosive weapons allow you to just aim at a nearby surface to give
> a target that's hiding around a corner (hence no auto-aim possible)
> splatter damage.
>
> -- Carl
Yeah, that's kind of necessary most of the time, in, say, UT. Just tend to
miss otherwise.
-Mustang Silver
Mustang
> =>> The runes were cast, the portents thundered and then "Mustang"
> warbled on about "Re: Use Of Mouse?" in alt.games.tombraider <<=
>
> > Not that I dislike TRs controls, though. Well, the mouse is good
usually,
> > but it always feels a bit weird from third person perspectives.
>
> I've got used to it now through playing a heap of Operation Flashpoint. It
> can still see a little weird seeing the character turn to aim on screen
> because you start to mentally adjust your aim to whatever you percive them
> as pointing at -- once you can stop doing this you're fine.
I always play OFP in first person, though. Unless I'm driving a vehicle,
when I tend to change for the majority of the time.
> The good thing about flashpoint of course is that the xhair isn't stuck to
> the middle of the screen -- there's a small invisible box that you can
move
> it around in and you only turn when it reaches the edge. Gives a looser
> feel to the aiming process.
Yeah, I do like that. We pick up on movement more easily than anything, and
that lets you adjust your aim without the whole screen moving - something
which never helps when you're looking for a few pixels' worth of movement in
the distance.
OFP is just rather great :)
-Mustang Silver
Sas
keyboard in
> any of the tombraiders?
>
>
Thank god NO!
I hate mouse and keyboard setups.
If they do decide to bring it in in TRNG, I pray they make it an option,
not the only option.
Sas
Erik Steffl
>
> =>> The runes were cast, the portents thundered and then Erik Steffl
> warbled on about "Re: Use Of Mouse?" in alt.games.tombraider <<=
>
> > IMO the auto-aim makes perfect sense in Lara game. I find aiming by
> > mouse anoying. also, auto-aim is used to show you where the enemy is if
> > lara can see it even if you (camera) cannot see it... that way the
> > camera problems are not that problematic (and camera is NEVER perfect in
> > third person games).
>
> Aiming by mouse does take a bit off skill, but it's easily enough learnt.
> The auto-lock that allows you to keep track of an enemy when they disappear
> behind a wall of foliage is bozoid in the extreme and utterly unrealistic.
> It should go (they did remove some aspects of it in TRLR).
>
> > auto-aim is better approximation of how person behaves in real life -
>
> So all those soldiers you see in every modern TV-warzone have auto-aim
> built into their fancy helmets? Don't think so, Eric. The US DoD and UK
> MoD would have overspent by even more than usual if they did so.
I said it's a better approximation of functionality, not that it is
one-to-one mapping of reality. the soldiers have independent control of
various parts of their body (they can run and shoot fairly independetly,
run in one direction and shoot in other direction, they can also
visually map both where they are running and their targets. In computer
game you generally do not have enough controls to be able to separately
control moving and shooting so shooting is done semi-automatically by
Lara (yoou have to shoot but aiming is automatic). Overall, character
can do more.
> > you can look where you are running and shoot in other direction, with
> > mouse aim it's not possible (therefore it prevents immersion), it's even
> > worse in third person view than in FPS, because your view (camera view)
> > is not even looking in the same direction where the game character is
> > looking.
>
> Aw that's just rubbish regards immersion! No one ever shoots in a
> direction they're not looking in. When Lara doesn't have a gun in hand she
why not? a sniper shoots where he looks but moving soldier (or
basketball player or skier etc.) has to move and shoot (or whatever the
other activity is) and handle both of these (and more) fairly
independently.
> would just look around using the mouse like she does now with the freelook
> key -- with a gun in hand it would be the same except she'd be sighting
> along it. You could have her running along easily enough while swinging
> the mouse around to have her head(view) turn and check all those nasty
> little nooks and crannies for traps/blastables as she passes.
that's pretty much unmanagable from the point of view of number of
controls - you basically need both hands to run/jump etc. which hand
would you use to control mouse? I can imagine that in *some* situtions
you could give up jumping etc. and use mouse to look around.
> The auto-aim is lame and reduces the gunplay aspect of the TR series to
> little more than a blip in the player's progress -- there's no gunfight in
> the game which is difficult at all. A good reason for including mouse-aim
some of them are quite difficult and you have to use the character
creatively to get through (jumping and running around while shooting
enemy while knowing where Lara is in gamespace etc.).
then again - why should a gun fight be difficult?
> would be to make the combat as much of a challenge as the puzzle solving or
> gymnastic (on Lara's part at least) requirement.
speaking of fighting and challenge I would much rather see some hand
to hand combat (something between Oni (too fancy, not functional) and
Urban chaos (just a little bit too simple))
> Project Eden showed it could be done. It might have lacked in heaps of
> other areas re:gameplay but as a technology demonstration of how 3rdPP
> games can use the mouse it was great. Rather than have the xhair fixed
> statically in the middle of the screen they allowed it a little leeway in
> movement before the character turned to follow, which makes the character
> appear to move is a more realistic way -- Operation Flashpoint also does
> this.
I playd demos of both of these (well, I am not 100% sure that
flashpoint is what I think it is but I remember project eden) and they
both suck, compared to how you control Lara. They are both somewhat
glorified leisure suit larry games, you go around a click stuff
(somewhat similar to working in windows, with a bit better graphics).
While when using Lara you actually control character, as oppposed to
controlling mouse cursor.
the truth is that part of the fun of Lara games is moving/controlling
the character itself - just walking and running around is interesting, I
think that's part of the success of TR games - in lot of other games
walking and running around is just a drag, something that has to be done
to get to some place, feels like work - a prime example of that is
anachronox (which I cannot get myself to play anymore).
erik
Mustang
> I playd demos of both of these (well, I am not 100% sure that
> flashpoint is what I think it is but I remember project eden) and they
> both suck, compared to how you control Lara. They are both somewhat
> glorified leisure suit larry games, you go around a click stuff
> (somewhat similar to working in windows, with a bit better graphics).
> While when using Lara you actually control character, as oppposed to
> controlling mouse cursor.
Operation Flashpoint is not a gloridied Leisure Suit Larry game! Nor's
Project Eden. Flashpoint actually lets you run in one direction, carry on
running in that direction, and turn your head around to look in other
direction whilst running in your original direction. Akin to real life. But
to shoot, you have to aim, with your gun. Which makes sense, really.
In fact, if you were to permanently switch to the total freelook mode, you
could have a forwards/backwards, rotate left/right, sidestep left/right set
up just like Tomb Raider. You'd probably still need to aim with your mouse
on occasion, though, because one thing the combat is not, is automatic. And
you need to be accurate (i.e. with the mouse), else you die :)
It's first or third person, and it's no typical shooter.
Some links, if you want to look:
http://www.codemasters.com/flashpoint/
http://www.3dactionplanet.com/flashpoint/
-Mustang Silver
Erik Steffl
>
> "Erik Steffl" <ste...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> news:3C71FE3E...@bigfoot.com...
> > I playd demos of both of these (well, I am not 100% sure that
> > flashpoint is what I think it is but I remember project eden) and they
> > both suck, compared to how you control Lara. They are both somewhat
> > glorified leisure suit larry games, you go around a click stuff
> > (somewhat similar to working in windows, with a bit better graphics).
> > While when using Lara you actually control character, as oppposed to
> > controlling mouse cursor.
>
> Operation Flashpoint is not a gloridied Leisure Suit Larry game! Nor's
btw LSL is a great series so it's not really very derogatory... it's
just that it goes in the same direction of classic adventure interface -
you go around and click stuff on the screen. you don't control the
character that does stuff in the environment. I am not 100% sure about
flashpoint but eden is definitely like that and IMO that's part of it's
boringness... (I didn't play full game so I judge by demo and reports of
others who played the game).
> Project Eden. Flashpoint actually lets you run in one direction, carry on
> running in that direction, and turn your head around to look in other
> direction whilst running in your original direction. Akin to real life. But
> to shoot, you have to aim, with your gun. Which makes sense, really.
>
> In fact, if you were to permanently switch to the total freelook mode, you
> could have a forwards/backwards, rotate left/right, sidestep left/right set
> up just like Tomb Raider. You'd probably still need to aim with your mouse
> on occasion, though, because one thing the combat is not, is automatic. And
> you need to be accurate (i.e. with the mouse), else you die :)
> It's first or third person, and it's no typical shooter.
well, if it's the game I think it is (I don't have time to check the
demo now (demo is in train - you are to save it from being blown to
pieces and also save some girl (not Lara:-) - is that it?) and the
screenshots do not have the same areas as demo had)) I'll probably play
it sooner or later so I'll have more to say about this <voice
tone="schwarzeneger">I'll be back</voice>
erik
Unknown
<I'llShootSpammersWi...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>Operation Flashpoint is not a gloridied Leisure Suit Larry game! Nor's
>Project Eden. Flashpoint actually lets you run in one direction, carry on
>running in that direction, and turn your head around to look in other
>direction whilst running in your original direction. Akin to real life. But
>to shoot, you have to aim, with your gun. Which makes sense, really.
>
>In fact, if you were to permanently switch to the total freelook mode, you
>could have a forwards/backwards, rotate left/right, sidestep left/right set
>up just like Tomb Raider. You'd probably still need to aim with your mouse
>on occasion, though, because one thing the combat is not, is automatic. And
>you need to be accurate (i.e. with the mouse), else you die :)
>It's first or third person, and it's no typical shooter.
>
>Some links, if you want to look:
>http://www.codemasters.com/flashpoint/
>http://www.3dactionplanet.com/flashpoint/
>
>-Mustang Silver
... Mustang, all of this sounds GREAT...
( I am, still, enjoying Quake 2 with the full Action CGF mod...
They , basically, made Quake 2 into a realistic SWAT/SAS game
with add-able teams of bots via an out-side, User Script... AQ2)
(And I have been a Mouse / Keyboard player, since DUKE 3D :-)
Anyway,,, the TR actions of very carefully lining-up with edges for a
Jump might be interesting with a Mouse, being used as a "steering
wheel" and Walk controller (That's how have used it, for years. And
always, will use it for very small minor movement or Spinning around.)
And I have a "Walk Forward" and "Walk Backward" with a "Run" key, for
some VERY good combinations with the Mouse acting as a "Wheel"
controller...
But. I always use my "free look" key while I am standing still for
viewing and targeting. (especially when playing a Sniper in AQ2)
So,,, has ANYONE suggested the actual Keys and their combinations for
a Mouse/Keyboard Controller for the Tomb Raider games???
(That would be a nice Start before the software is modified. :-)
Then we could, sort of, Beta Test this mentally...
Then we need to add a "Mouse to Keyboard-Strokes" mod, that will
simulate key-strokes by translating the Mouse motions.
( And if this mod is totally seperate and simply inputs or FEEDs the
tomb.exe, the proper key-strokes,,, then it might be portable enough,
with minor Key changes, to all of the current TR games.) ie: The
Crawling Action is not universal in TR...
Obtw, I always use a 3-button Mouse...
(Left for Fire, Middle for Crawl or Duck mode and Right for Jump.)
... Of course, this Mouse/Keyboard TR Mod should expand upon Keyboard
and Mouse Button selections, a little bit...
CORE,,, Thank you for Listening...
______________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Still Only $9.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
With NINE Servers In California And Texas - The Worlds Uncensored News Source
Mustang
> Mustang wrote:
> >
> > Operation Flashpoint is not a gloridied Leisure Suit Larry game! Nor's
>
> btw LSL is a great series so it's not really very derogatory... it's
> just that it goes in the same direction of classic adventure interface -
> you go around and click stuff on the screen. you don't control the
> character that does stuff in the environment. I am not 100% sure about
> flashpoint but eden is definitely like that and IMO that's part of it's
> boringness... (I didn't play full game so I judge by demo and reports of
> others who played the game).
I've played a bit of a LSL game on my Amiga. But it's not a graphical point
and click. It's a first/third person warfare simulation/game thing. Like
comparing Quake to Monkey Island, see? :)
And Project Eden is just like Tomb Raider! Move character around in the 3D
environment, interact with the environment, aim, shoot, do stuff. In essence
the 'moving' and 'interacting' features are found in LSL, but it's a
*totally* different came.
So you can't cling on ledges in Project Eden like you can in TR, but what
else is missing from the controlling of the character? Nothing, I say...
> well, if it's the game I think it is (I don't have time to check the
> demo now (demo is in train - you are to save it from being blown to
> pieces and also save some girl (not Lara:-) - is that it?) and the
> screenshots do not have the same areas as demo had)) I'll probably play
> it sooner or later so I'll have more to say about this <voice
> tone="schwarzeneger">I'll be back</voice>
Err, no, lol. Not at all. No train. Just a *huge*, open landscape, you an
M-16, a truckload of soldiers, and a co-ordinated assault down a hill into a
village held by Russians. With some T-72s. No girls involved. No trains.
Just tense, keep-your-head-down, ground warfare. With some driving involved
:)
-Mustang Silver
Erik Steffl
>
> "Erik Steffl" <ste...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> news:3C72DA24...@bigfoot.com...
> > Mustang wrote:
> > >
> > > Operation Flashpoint is not a gloridied Leisure Suit Larry game! Nor's
> >
> > btw LSL is a great series so it's not really very derogatory... it's
> > just that it goes in the same direction of classic adventure interface -
> > you go around and click stuff on the screen. you don't control the
> > character that does stuff in the environment. I am not 100% sure about
> > flashpoint but eden is definitely like that and IMO that's part of it's
> > boringness... (I didn't play full game so I judge by demo and reports of
> > others who played the game).
>
> I've played a bit of a LSL game on my Amiga. But it's not a graphical point
> and click. It's a first/third person warfare simulation/game thing. Like
> comparing Quake to Monkey Island, see? :)
hey, and why not? you point, you click, it's all the same (not sure
about flashpoint, see below). IMO it makes a huge difference whether you
control the character which in turn acts upon environment or control the
cursor which acts on environment while character sort of follows it.
of course, there are differences - in quake the point is how good you
are at pointing, in LSL (or monkey island) the point is to figure out
where to point (and in which order). the point is that you're still
pointing...
> And Project Eden is just like Tomb Raider! Move character around in the 3D
> environment, interact with the environment, aim, shoot, do stuff. In essence
> the 'moving' and 'interacting' features are found in LSL, but it's a
> *totally* different came.
but the characters in project eden do not really do anything. consider
that if there were no characters in project eden but instead just a
cursor it would be the same game (the characters are just fancy
enhancement of cursor, a decoration). However if you'd remove Lara from
TR then you end up with not having TR...
> So you can't cling on ledges in Project Eden like you can in TR, but what
> else is missing from the controlling of the character? Nothing, I say...
>
> > well, if it's the game I think it is (I don't have time to check the
> > demo now (demo is in train - you are to save it from being blown to
> > pieces and also save some girl (not Lara:-) - is that it?) and the
> > screenshots do not have the same areas as demo had)) I'll probably play
> > it sooner or later so I'll have more to say about this <voice
> > tone="schwarzeneger">I'll be back</voice>
>
> Err, no, lol. Not at all. No train. Just a *huge*, open landscape, you an
> M-16, a truckload of soldiers, and a co-ordinated assault down a hill into a
> village held by Russians. With some T-72s. No girls involved. No trains.
> Just tense, keep-your-head-down, ground warfare. With some driving involved
> :)
ok, so I'm back, I checked the demos but didn't find the game I was
talking about, it looks like it's not flashpoint. that's too bad because
it looked like fairly interesting action/adventure game that I cannot
find now... hey, I said in the beginning that what I think is flashpoint
is not flashpoint:-)
erik
snark^
> a Mouse/Keyboard Controller for the Tomb Raider games???
> (That would be a nice Start before the software is modified. :-)
> Then we could, sort of, Beta Test this mentally...
Posted mine a few years back, but some of the ideas in modern games are too
yummy to leave out... Most of the following key config would be remappable
of course, but the game controls are the important parts).
WASD = usual Forward-Left-Back-Right movement.
SHIFT = stance down (stand -> crouch -> prone)
ALT = stance up (prone -> crouch -> stand)
SPACE = jump (with direction key for tumbling)[1]
CTRL = 'hold' key toggle[2]
MOUSE = controls direction/aim for Lara
MOUSE1 = fire
MOUSE2 = alt fire (switch fire mode of gun; single, burst, full auto)
MOUSE3 = use object/item/switch, open doors/, pick pockets, etc
MOUSE4 = item in hand (swap guns/items or ammo type)[3]
MOUSEWHEEL = zoom in/zoom out (binoculars/telescopic sights)[4]
~ = console
TAB = inventory menu[5]
1-9 = usual weapon hotkeys (have them categorised ala HL DM)
B = bugsie on/off toggle
C = compass hotkey (compass appears floating on screen)
E = command menu (to issue orders to your NPCs)
F = flashlight/flares hotkey
G = gesture key (hand signals: come here, move there, up yours!, etc)
H = quickheal hotkey
M = map hotkey
N = navel ring in/out
P = ponytail/'hair-up' toggle
Q = holster weapons/items hotkey
R = reload (no magic magazines recycling your leftover bullets either)
T = spray tag/chalk mark 'feature'
Y = multiplayer global chat
U = multiplayer team chat
Z = radio menu?
ESC = cutscene breakaway key
F1-F12 = select NPC(s)
Notes on RPG-like behaviour:
Each character would have *improvable skills* (suggestions: stealth,
lockpicking, stealing, repair, tumbling, swimming, healing, unarmed combat,
hacking, demolitions, and accuracy with various classes of weapons + melee
weapon skills). The game wouldn't allow you to max out on every skill, so
keeping certain characters alive to do their thing at certain spots would
be one of the many challenges involved. Skills would improve with use and
not be based on experience points or levels gained (no yucki D&D!).
Skill-wise Lara would, of course, top out in tumbling, pistols, rifles, and
swimming but little else... she's certainly had no use for stealth,
lockpicking or melee/unarmed skills in the first 5 games... ;)
As for physical skills, they should be determined by the character itself,
as presented, with little room for improvement ingame. A character's
physical shape might prevent them from doing stuff; no fat bastards pulling
off Lara's midair tumbles fer'instance. Physical stats would be the usual
stuff: strength, agility, endurance (all that running) perception, and
would bear some influence on the skillsets above. Example: Lara always
notices everything so she would have the highest perception ("You traipse
into this innocent looking room first please, Lara"). Her endurance is
incredible too.
Things would also get altered by her behaviour at the time: shooting while
running around or from riding vehicles will result in wild inaccurate
bursts, laying prone and using the zoom mode would increase the chances of
making a hit. Having run for a long time will raise her heart rate to the
point where it could affect her shooting/jumping ability/running speed too.
See... s'all simple... Read the wishlist for everything else. ;)
[1] Combos like rolling/midair tumbling would be controlled by
direction+jump+crouch while in midair for example. Notable that Ghost
Recon and OpFlash badly missed any kind of jump function.
[2] With this on and nothing in hand Lara would grab and hold onto ledges,
monkey bars, pipes, ropes, do the FAKK2-like ledge shimmy, and climbable
walls/things. Certain one-handed items could be hauled out of the tardis
and used depending on the situation; eg., a pistol while climbing, but
movement would be stopped while she had it in hand.
[3] OpFlash-like inventory control in hand so there's no FPS-type instant
weapon changes. Also used for activating conversation trees when
encountering NPCS ("Option: Talk to old geezer").
[4] Telescopic view would be usual circle (or ellipse for binocs)
superimposed on the 3rd person view showing a zoomed in view of whatever's
being aimed at. Or again like OpFlash's various weapon views on weapons
without a telescopic sight the camera could flick to just behind her head
to aid in aiming (or even a temporary 1st person view) -- shots would be
extra accurate in this view.
[5] Inventory based on the Deus Ex/Drakan grid style -- only a certain
amount of space available and each item's shape can determine how much you
can carry. Spaces also for each hand so you can drop a set of keys in one
hand and a pistol in the other. Rifles and large items would take up both
hands.
--
|\ .---. alt.games.tombraider micro-UFAQ (the
L .\\ </_\\\\ Ultra-Frequently Asked Questions guide)
:/>` (|'|'|)
A Y/\ \_-_/| 1) There is no nude code for any of the
\ \ ____/' \_\_ TR games, so please stop asking.
R \ \.-'' \ / \ 2) Try the full FAQ for any technical
\__.---(_ \Y/ _). \'-._ help. It's posted here monthly.
A )" | ""| \ \-._'-. 3) Good walkthroughs are available at:
,-,-<_ .' / / / '-.\ http://tombraiders.net/stella, and
/~/-._[_]`-< / / || http://trinity.westhost.com/tomb/
C |_| _,`-|~\/_/ \| 4) Unplug the joystick!(tm)
| / \ \/|\` 5) Collecting all the secrets gets you
R | | \ \/ extra medkits/ammo.
| | `. \ 6) It's Lara, not Laura! (ILNL!)
O | | \ \ 7) To get off vehicles - TR2 & TRLR:
| | \ \ press Jump + Left/Right, TR3: press
F | | \ \ Roll + Left/Right.
/__\ |___\ 8) Please don't post any binaries here.
T /.| DrS. | .\_ 9) Still no nude code - sorry...
`-'' snark^ ``--'
snark^
> WASD = usual Forward-Left-Back-Right movement.
> SHIFT = stance down (stand -> crouch -> prone)
> ALT = stance up (prone -> crouch -> stand)
> SPACE = jump (with direction key for tumbling)[1]
Damn, didn't explian that well at all. Just to clarify this.
Tumbling or jumping would depend on the stance you'd have Lara in. If
she's standing she'd jump as normal; pressing jump while crouched would
cause her to roll; pressing jump + A/D while prone would make Lara roll
left/right a few feet.
Mustang
> Mustang wrote:
> > I've played a bit of a LSL game on my Amiga. But it's not a graphical
point
> > and click. It's a first/third person warfare simulation/game thing. Like
> > comparing Quake to Monkey Island, see? :)
>
> hey, and why not? you point, you click, it's all the same (not sure
> about flashpoint, see below). IMO it makes a huge difference whether you
> control the character which in turn acts upon environment or control the
> cursor which acts on environment while character sort of follows it.
>
> of course, there are differences - in quake the point is how good you
> are at pointing, in LSL (or monkey island) the point is to figure out
> where to point (and in which order). the point is that you're still
> pointing...
No no no no no, Erik. No :)
Aiming in a first person shooter is NOTHING like pointing and clicking in a
graphical adventure game. Nothing. And you know it. Just because you use the
mouse for both means nothing at all. If it does, then your left and right
keys for Tomb Raider are synonymous with turning with the mouse in a FPS.
How about a joystick for TR? You use it to turn left and right (can be
analogue, too), just like a mouse. In TR, you have no direct control over
looking up and down whilst moving about. Otherwise, you have a forwards key,
a backwards key, and left/right keys. I Project Eden, you have a forward
key, a backwards key, and two sidestep keys. Your mouse is your left/right
control. You can, incidentally, look up and down as well.
You absolutely cannot say that running around in Project Eden is equivalent
to pointing at one spot on a screen and clicking to go there. It's not. It's
basically identical to TR, except that left/right is control via mouse, and
not a pair of keys.
I do see why you say what you say, but I totally disagree. Because I could
say that TR has you moving your 'cursor' around the environment too, and
somewhat clumsily. Yes, Lara can pull herself up, yes, Lara can jump, but if
I remember correctly, so can the people in Project Eden. You don't make LSL
jump. You don't have to manually time things and aim things, or directly be
responsible for his very moves. In PE, you do. In TR, you do. In any FPS,
you do. You turn differently to TR, and with the exception of TR, you can
freely look up and down whilst moving, but otherwise, they're pretty much
all the same. TR does have a wealth of moves, as well, yes. But then so do
3D platformers, normally. Which TR largely is, in effect.
> > And Project Eden is just like Tomb Raider! Move character around in the
3D
> > environment, interact with the environment, aim, shoot, do stuff. In
essence
> > the 'moving' and 'interacting' features are found in LSL, but it's a
> > *totally* different came.
>
> but the characters in project eden do not really do anything. consider
> that if there were no characters in project eden but instead just a
> cursor it would be the same game (the characters are just fancy
> enhancement of cursor, a decoration). However if you'd remove Lara from
> TR then you end up with not having TR...
No it wouldn't, because you have to jump, you have to interact with things.
You could replace Lara with a cursor. Provided it had the ability to attach
to edges to shimmy, and jump. You don't need Lara to make TR. It's only
marginally more flexible than your average 3D game. And she'd be replaced
with a cursor with an autoaiming gun, for a start. At least with the others
you'd have to manually aim that 'cursor'. But, if it's *anything* like LSL,
as you say, then you wouldn't need to aim at anything anyway, because those
games don't involve tracking targets in 3D.
In-game characters are all basically an extension of the player, that let
you interact with the environment. We just have them look like humans or
whatever, otherwise it would be extremely bloody boring! Replace all guns
with cursors you have to aim. Replace all aircraft in flight sims with
cursors that fly like planes. Replace all people who can move with cursors
you guide around. Err, no :) I know that's not exactly your point, but you
did say you could just as well replace the people in PE. No you can't, and
if you could, you wouldn't anyway.
> > Err, no, lol. Not at all. No train. Just a *huge*, open landscape, you
an
> > M-16, a truckload of soldiers, and a co-ordinated assault down a hill
into a
> > village held by Russians. With some T-72s. No girls involved. No trains.
> > Just tense, keep-your-head-down, ground warfare. With some driving
involved
> > :)
>
> ok, so I'm back, I checked the demos but didn't find the game I was
> talking about, it looks like it's not flashpoint. that's too bad because
> it looked like fairly interesting action/adventure game that I cannot
> find now... hey, I said in the beginning that what I think is flashpoint
> is not flashpoint:-)
Well, I thought you said it might not be the same one. Go try Operation
Flashpoint, then, anyway. Then come and tell me it's more like LSL than TR,
alright? :-)
-Mustang Silver
Mustang
Ahh, good, I did wonder about that. Couldn't see how it'd be possible to
jump anywhere but straight up without going into a tumble :)
Yes, I think I just about agree with - and like - all of your suggestions
and ideas. It's all so easy! So why the hell does someone not make a game
like that?! Do game developers not *have* one communal brain between them
all? :)
-Mustang Silver
snark^
warbled on about "Dream TR key layouts?" in a.g.t <<=
> I wrote:
> > Tumbling or jumping would depend on the stance you'd have Lara in. If
> > she's standing she'd jump as normal; pressing jump while crouched would
> > cause her to roll; pressing jump + A/D while prone would make Lara roll
> > left/right a few feet.
>
> Ahh, good, I did wonder about that. Couldn't see how it'd be possible to
> jump anywhere but straight up without going into a tumble :)
Five min after I posted that I realised it's pretty worthless to just
assign keys and then not think about how the moves should get performed
with them.
I left myself a lot of leeway though with basically having two use keys
(one for items in hand and one for external switches and the like) + three
keys for the stance_down/stance_up and jumping. It allows my mythical key
layout a lot more flexibility although where they'll find all these buttons
on a console is beyond me... (like I really care tho...). :D
So here's the revamped version with all the moves now explained in full as
well -- pretty sure I've not doubled up on any key combos or got any so
close together that you'd mix them up in the heat of battle... I'm
particularly proud of the ponytail and navel ring toggles... ;)
~~~~~
Dream key/mouse layout for TR
-----------------------------
WASD = usual Forward-Left-Back-Right movement.
SHIFT = stance_down (stand -> crouch -> prone).
ALT = stance_up (prone -> crouch -> stand).
SPACE = jump.
CTRL = walk.
MOUSE = controls direction/aim for Lara.
MOUSE1 = fire.
MOUSE2 = alt fire[1].
MOUSE3 = use object/item/switch, open doors, pick ups, pick pockets, etc.
MOUSE4 = alter item in hand (swap guns/items or ammo type)[2].
MOUSEWHEEL = zoom in/out for binoculars and weapons[3].
ESC = cutscene breakaway key/inventory menu[4].
F1-F12 = selection and grouping of NPC(s)?
~ = console.
TAB = free revolving cam (press to swing camera around Lara).
1-9 = usual weapon hotkeys (have them categorised ala HL DM)[5].
A = sidestep left.
B = bugsie on/off toggle.
C = compass hotkey (compass appears floating onscreen).
D = sidestep right.
E = command menu (to issue orders to your NPCs).
F = flashlight/flares hotkey.
G = gesture key (hand signals: come here, move there, up yours!, etc).
H = quickheal hotkey.
M = map hotkey.
N = navel ring in/off toggle.
O = objectives/diary screen.
P = ponytail, bun or 'hair-up' toggle.
Q = holster weapons/items hotkey.
R = reload (no magic magazines recycling your leftover bullets either).
S = hop back.
T = spray tag/chalk mark 'feature'.
U = multiplayer team chat.
W = run forward.
X = 'hold' key toggle (must have both hands clear)[6].
Y = multiplayer global chat.
Z = radio menu; call in airstrike, call for evac, call zip for advice.
[1] Switches fire mode of gun; single, burst, full auto. If it's a
combination weapon (eg., M16+M203 grenade launcher) you'd have to swap
between the weapons on the fire button using the item-in-hand key (see
point [2]). Could have had it so that the fire button also uses for
non-weapons but then you couldn't carry a gun in one hand and a key or so
in the other.
[2] OpFlash-like inventory control (click brings up onscreen context
sensitive menu) so there's no FPS-type instant weapon changes. Note the
use key has basically been split in two; first one handles external objects
like doors and pickups while the other only changes/combines/reloads the
items Lara has in her hand(s).
[3] Telescopic view would first flash the camera to directly behind the top
of Lara's head (almost a 1st person view) to aid in aiming and allowing
extra accurate shooting. With the binoculars or weapons with telescopic
sights the usual circle (or ellipse for binocs) is superimposed over (even
obscuring a little) the 3rd person view showing a zoomed in scene of
whatever's being aimed at. Use the mousewheel to zoom in even further if
the device permits it.
[4] Inventory based on the Deus Ex/Drakan grid style -- only a certain
amount of space available and each item's unique shape can then determine
how much you can carry. Spaces also for each hand so you can drop a set of
keys in one hand and a pistol in the other. Rifles and large items would
take up both hands.
[5] Suggestions: 1 = knives, clubs, swords, crowbar, snooker cues; 2 =
pistols, tazer; 3 = (secondary weapons) sawn off shotguns, small smgs; 4 =
(primary weapons) assault/pump rifles, autoshotties, muskets; 5 = (sniper)
rifles, crossbows; 6 = (heavy weapons) minimi, rocket launchers, grenade
launchers, flamethrower; 7 = (explosives) bombs, grenades, mines; 8 =
(misc/exotic/archaic) quarterstaffs, whips, chakram, tranq gun, harpoon
gun, booby traps.
[6] With this on and nothing in hand Lara would grab and hold onto ledges,
monkey bars, pipes, ropes, do the FAKK2-like ledge hug, and climbable
walls/things. One-handed items could be hauled out of the tardis and used
depending on the situation; eg., a pistol while climbing, but any movement
would be halted while she had it in hand.
Lara's moves; old and new*
--------------------------
Turning = mouse movement; look up, down, all around with an unfixed cursor.
Lara would turn once the mobile cursor moved to a set limit (usually an
invisible box in the middle of the screen).
Running = press forwards.
Walking = hold the walk key down whilst pressing the direction keys.
Sidestep = press left or right. In combo with forward this could have you
running Lara at up to 90 degrees from the direction you have her looking
in.
Hop Back = press back once (step backwards with walk key held down).
Sprinting = double tap on the forward key.
Sneaking* = direction key when crouching; pressing walk as well gives you
the extra stealthy mode.
Crawling* = any direction key when prone; sidestepping/backing up while
prone is much slower than moving forwards. Also a stealthy mode of
movement.
Rolling = when crouched pressing jump + direction key would have her roll
in that direction. When prone, jump + left/right would have her roll a few
feet sideways (for those quick escapes to avoid being stomped on).
Jumping = press direction key + jump to do usual Lara-defies-gravity
leaping.
Midair Rolls = when in mid-jump press stance_down to have her roll and land
facing where she jumped from.
Diving = press walk + jump + forward; then stance down to make her do those
olympic quality forward rolls on the way down. Points off if you make too
much of a splash.
Forward Dive/Roll = when sprinting press stance_down and then jump in quick
succession.
Slide* = similar to the dive above; double tap on the stance_down when
sprinting forward would have her do the Oni-like slide move.
Cartwheeling* = run forward, press walk + stance_up to go head over heels.
Vaulting = move up to ledge press hold key and then jump.
Handstand = as vault above and but press walk as she hauls herself up.
Climbing = press the hold key once before you start (or jump) at the
wall/rope and then direction keys to move up/down/left right, etc; pressing
the jump key will make her release from whatever she's holding onto.
Ledge Shimmy = press hold key before you back Lara over the edge.
Ledge Hug* = as shimmy above before you put Lara's back against the wall
then left or right to move her along.
Monkey Bar Swing = as climbing.
Pipe Shimmy* = as climbing.
Rope Swing = forward or back while dangling on rope; stance_up/stance_down
to move up and down rope; jump to release.
Swimming = usual forward/side/back stuff and double tap on forward would
see her do a fast freestyle.
Underwater Movement = usual + stance_up/stance_down can have her floating
up or down.
Underwater 180 Roll = press jump when moving forward.
Object interaction
------------------
Unarmed combat = pressing the fire(fist)/alt fire(kick) buttons in
combination with the various move above. The really damaging moves could
be hidden amidst the most disgustingly keyboard-centipedal combos you could
ever imagine. That's if we want TR to follow in the mood set by Oni's
one-woman-orgy-with-unwilling-partners type gameplay? ;)
Pickups = move cursor onto object and press use key; shglieks not excepted.
Push/pull = move cursor onto object, press use and then forward/back.
Operate device = move cursor onto door handle/switch/etc and press use key.
Unlocking = with keys in hand move cursor to lock and press use key (or
fire to shoot out lock).
~~~~~
> Yes, I think I just about agree with - and like - all of your suggestions
> and ideas. It's all so easy! So why the hell does someone not make a game
> like that?! Do game developers not *have* one communal brain between them
> all? :)
The only success we've ever had from this ng regards influencing the games
has been getting the T-Rex head above the trophy room fireplace in TR3...
:)
--
Mustang
>
> I left myself a lot of leeway though with basically having two use keys
> (one for items in hand and one for external switches and the like) + three
> keys for the stance_down/stance_up and jumping. It allows my mythical key
> layout a lot more flexibility although where they'll find all these
buttons
> on a console is beyond me... (like I really care tho...). :D
I didn't think too much about the way in which the use keys worked. I just
figured you'd got it thought out all sensically, and didn't worry about it
:)
And no, I don't care about the silly consoles, either, hehe.
> So here's the revamped version with all the moves now explained in full as
> well -- pretty sure I've not doubled up on any key combos or got any so
> close together that you'd mix them up in the heat of battle... I'm
> particularly proud of the ponytail and navel ring toggles... ;)
Yes, indeed. Maybe there should be a breast-size up/down key, just so it
could suit the players preference?
Oh, and you must remember to *not* include a nude code toggle, just so you
can tell everyone it's *not* there!
> R = reload (no magic magazines recycling your leftover bullets either).
No, certainly not. I wish more games did that.
> Z = radio menu; call in airstrike, call for evac, call zip for advice.
Hehe, you're making Lara sound like a one-woman military operation now :)
Well, most things you've said are rather combat-environment orientated...
but I wouldn't mind either way.
> [5] Suggestions: 1 = knives, clubs, swords, crowbar, snooker cues; 2 =
> pistols, tazer; 3 = (secondary weapons) sawn off shotguns, small smgs; 4 =
> (primary weapons) assault/pump rifles, autoshotties, muskets; 5 = (sniper)
> rifles, crossbows; 6 = (heavy weapons) minimi, rocket launchers, grenade
> launchers, flamethrower; 7 = (explosives) bombs, grenades, mines; 8 =
> (misc/exotic/archaic) quarterstaffs, whips, chakram, tranq gun, harpoon
> gun, booby traps.
I personally think less weapons would be better. It's fun to have lots, but
it's a bit silly. Preferably nothing too explosive, or meaty, just a
selection of nice, sturdy guns and things. And more of a primary/secondary
weapon things going on would be nice. Not to say she couldn't carry more,
but... only what she could realistically carry as a backup, in her rucksack
:)
> Slide* = similar to the dive above; double tap on the stance_down when
> sprinting forward would have her do the Oni-like slide move.
What's that, exactly? Haven't played Oni...
> Cartwheeling* = run forward, press walk + stance_up to go head over heels.
Hehe, cartwheel. Interesting :)
> > Yes, I think I just about agree with - and like - all of your
suggestions
> > and ideas. It's all so easy! So why the hell does someone not make a
game
> > like that?! Do game developers not *have* one communal brain between
them
> > all? :)
>
> The only success we've ever had from this ng regards influencing the games
> has been getting the T-Rex head above the trophy room fireplace in TR3...
> :)
I don't remember it in TR3 (I don't ever remember much about the TRs,
though!), but I remember you mentioning it not too long ago, yes. If only
those people at Core would *listen*! Dammit :)
-Mustang Silver
snark^
> I didn't think too much about the way in which the use keys worked. I just
> figured you'd got it thought out all sensically, and didn't worry about it
> :)
You dare accuse me of both thinking and general forethought?! Infidel!
> > Z = radio menu; call in airstrike, call for evac, call zip for advice.
>
> Hehe, you're making Lara sound like a one-woman military operation now :)
> Well, most things you've said are rather combat-environment orientated...
> but I wouldn't mind either way.
Ah that's just my bias -- put it down to the Operation Flashpoint and
Counterstrike influence. Besides being able to order your unit around in
OPF you can also radio HQ to indicate mission status from time to time and
it's a lot of fun. Perhaps we could call it "cellphone menu" instead. Or
satellite phone given her worldwide roaming nature.
[Lara stops running forward in her new quest and reaches back into the
lunchbox to haul forth her satphone]
*beep-bip-deep-beep-doop-dup-dooorrrp*
*ring... ring... ring... click*
"Speak and be heard by Zip, the living god of technology, in the flesh."
"Zip, I needs your hayelp!"
"Lara! Sure, wassa you want, riot-grrl?"
"Detailed floor plans for the ancient pyramidal section of Sekrit Building
X in Lhasa -- specifically I need to know where the lasergrids and cameras
are -- and what areas they cover."
... could see some abuse with this concept though given Lara's gender; eg.,
much later on ...
[Lara is quietly eating lunch, brown-bag style, (packed by Jeeves) amidst
the recently dead bodies of some blastable nasties in something resembling
the cistern level -- suddenly she hauls out the satphone again]
*blup-beep-deep-dip-beep-doop-duuurrp*
*ring... ring... ring... ring... click*
*yawning noise* "H-hhello?"
"Harriet! Lara here. Sorry to get you up at such an ungodly early hour
but I've got to let you know that I'm sitting here in this most absolutely
amazing subterranean and cthonic bloodsplashed sewer-type place and the
greenish glowing gunge on the wall just sets off that new nail polish you
recommended to me splendidly..."
... and TRNG gets finally gets a name:
"TR6, The Talky Chickflick-like Adventure"
> .... [snip mi huge list of weapons] ....
> I personally think less weapons would be better. It's fun to have lots, but
> it's a bit silly. Preferably nothing too explosive, or meaty, just a
> selection of nice, sturdy guns and things. And more of a primary/secondary
> weapon things going on would be nice. Not to say she couldn't carry more,
> but... only what she could realistically carry as a backup, in her rucksack
> :)
A grid inventory system would stop her carrying everything at once. In
Deus Ex it was heartbreaking to find that you couldn't carry the GEP gun,
plasma rifle, assault rifle + your fav shotgun and assorted pistols all at
once -- well you *could* just manage to carry all these cool toys -- but
you had no room left for the unimportant stuff like healthpacks, lockpicks,
food, armour, augmentation upgrades...
So even though that was a huge list of things that go *boom* (and *pffhht*,
*zap*, and *broink!*) she'd only be able to carry a few of them at a time.
Outcast had the best ingame solution to the "where DO all the weapons go?"
question that plagues shooters -- Cutter's backpack genuinely was a tardis
where the items got shrunk by nanotechnology to a fraction of their real
size. He had the same action Lara does of just reaching behind his back
and the gun suddenly appearing in hand... and again on this meme there was
that pic from the TR2 ending credits where The Divine Ponytail is shown
festooned with all the weapons from the game.
> > Slide* = similar to the dive above; double tap on the stance_down when
> > sprinting forward would have her do the Oni-like slide move.
>
> What's that, exactly? Haven't played Oni...
Oni was quite good for this stuff though it missed out on basics like
climbing and swimming. You ran Konoko forward and pressed a vile key combo
(vile to try and achieve I mean) to make her do a slide (like a baseballer
sliding into the plate). Useful for getting her under laser triplines when
slow crawling won't cut it.
> > Cartwheeling* = run forward, press walk + stance_up to go head over heels.
>
> Hehe, cartwheel. Interesting :)
And having been months since I played the demo I can't remember for the
life of me what use it was... could have had something to do with Konoko's
plethora of unarmed combat moves.
- grey brumby
--
Sartre of Borg: Existence precedes assimilation.
Erik Steffl
>
> "Erik Steffl" <ste...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> news:3C747BE8...@bigfoot.com...
> > Mustang wrote:
> > > I've played a bit of a LSL game on my Amiga. But it's not a graphical
> point
> > > and click. It's a first/third person warfare simulation/game thing. Like
> > > comparing Quake to Monkey Island, see? :)
> >
> > hey, and why not? you point, you click, it's all the same (not sure
> > about flashpoint, see below). IMO it makes a huge difference whether you
> > control the character which in turn acts upon environment or control the
> > cursor which acts on environment while character sort of follows it.
> >
> > of course, there are differences - in quake the point is how good you
> > are at pointing, in LSL (or monkey island) the point is to figure out
> > where to point (and in which order). the point is that you're still
> > pointing...
>
> No no no no no, Erik. No :)
>
> Aiming in a first person shooter is NOTHING like pointing and clicking in a
> graphical adventure game. Nothing. And you know it. Just because you use the
I am not saying it's same in all aspects (see above) but it is still
pointing and clicking, same method of control.
> mouse for both means nothing at all. If it does, then your left and right
the input device really doesn't mean much. the difference is in what
does it control. notice that I am mostly not really talking about mouse
but about mouse cursor.
> keys for Tomb Raider are synonymous with turning with the mouse in a FPS.
no. the keys in TR control Lara. the mouse controls cursor (and in
most cases viewpoint follows cursor or character follows cursor).
> How about a joystick for TR? You use it to turn left and right (can be
it controls Lara, not cursor on the screen. big difference.
> analogue, too), just like a mouse. In TR, you have no direct control over
> looking up and down whilst moving about. Otherwise, you have a forwards key,
> a backwards key, and left/right keys. I Project Eden, you have a forward
> key, a backwards key, and two sidestep keys. Your mouse is your left/right
> control. You can, incidentally, look up and down as well.
>
> You absolutely cannot say that running around in Project Eden is equivalent
> to pointing at one spot on a screen and clicking to go there. It's not. It's
> basically identical to TR, except that left/right is control via mouse, and
> not a pair of keys.
> I do see why you say what you say, but I totally disagree. Because I could
> say that TR has you moving your 'cursor' around the environment too, and
> somewhat clumsily. Yes, Lara can pull herself up, yes, Lara can jump, but if
these actions actually control game
> I remember correctly, so can the people in Project Eden. You don't make LSL
but all the significant actions are done using mouse (at least that's
what it seems like from demo, IIRC).
> jump. You don't have to manually time things and aim things, or directly be
> responsible for his very moves. In PE, you do. In TR, you do. In any FPS,
> you do. You turn differently to TR, and with the exception of TR, you can
it doesn't matter. imagine:
you eat a cake.
you control a man who eats the cake.
big difference, right? there's a similar difference between TR and the
mouse cursor games - in TR are are one step closer to controlling the
environment, when you use mouse cursor you just watch characters to
follow it (at best) instead of really doing it. [note that I am not
saying that playing TR is like eating a cake, I'm saying that TR is one
step closer to being there]
> freely look up and down whilst moving, but otherwise, they're pretty much
> all the same. TR does have a wealth of moves, as well, yes. But then so do
> 3D platformers, normally. Which TR largely is, in effect.
IIRC in PE you do all the significant stuff by clicking on objects.
The characters do not play any role really.
the point is that in TR you control character which in turn does
something in/to environment.
in most games that use mouse (with mouse cursor, that's the crucial
part) you control environment using the cursor and just watch characters
follow it. so the characters are insignificant (regardless whether you
can actually control them directly - if all the significant actions are
performed using mouse the characters are just extra fluff).
if you don't think that it makes sense then why do you think Lara is
so popular but characters from other (sometime very popular) games are
not? The characters that are popular (Mario?) are basically in the same
category as Lara (you control them, they do something in/to
environment).
> > > And Project Eden is just like Tomb Raider! Move character around in the
on a very shallow level (just like java is like C++ on a very shallow
level but it's really more like smalltalk; or prince is homosexual on
very shallow level but he's really not etc.)
> 3D
> > > environment, interact with the environment, aim, shoot, do stuff. In
> essence
> > > the 'moving' and 'interacting' features are found in LSL, but it's a
> > > *totally* different came.
> >
> > but the characters in project eden do not really do anything. consider
> > that if there were no characters in project eden but instead just a
> > cursor it would be the same game (the characters are just fancy
> > enhancement of cursor, a decoration). However if you'd remove Lara from
> > TR then you end up with not having TR...
>
> No it wouldn't, because you have to jump, you have to interact with things.
> You could replace Lara with a cursor. Provided it had the ability to attach
> to edges to shimmy, and jump. You don't need Lara to make TR. It's only
it would not be TR. however if you move Lara (and related style of
control) to basically any other game you still have TR game...
you wrote it youself: you'd have to replace Lara with cursor that has
functionality that most mouse cursors do not have. however you could
replace the characters in PE with basically regular cursors, no
additional actions required.
so basically the cursor that would replace Lara would not be a
cursor:-)
> marginally more flexible than your average 3D game. And she'd be replaced
> with a cursor with an autoaiming gun, for a start. At least with the others
> you'd have to manually aim that 'cursor'. But, if it's *anything* like LSL,
> as you say, then you wouldn't need to aim at anything anyway, because those
> games don't involve tracking targets in 3D.
it's not about the gameplay, it's about the interface (style of
interface). whether you point to a drawer and it opens or whether you
point to a spaceship and it explodes is irrelevant.
> In-game characters are all basically an extension of the player, that let
> you interact with the environment. We just have them look like humans or
NO! Lara is extension. in mouse cursor games the cursor is extension,
character is nothing. and they are both very different extensions.
it's really like a difference between declarative programming and
procedural programming (very relevant example since both the game
interface and programming are used to control computer to do something).
procedural programming: you describe what you want computer to do in
simple steps (where computer already knows how to perform each simple
step). it's basically like any 'normal' quide on how to do something.
declarative programming: you state what you want (and suupply computer
with all the required information to do it). but you don't describe how
to actually do it (it looks a bit like magic).
[tr = procedural, mouse cursor = declarative]
the distinction is somewhat fuzzy - for example this is a list of
games that go gradually from being TR like to being mouse cursor games:
TR (no cursor)
PE (cursor is significant but the characters are still somewhat
significant)
quake (character is almost non-existent)
adventure games (in most cases characters are just a visual
decoration, often annoying because you have to wait them to do something
which is really boring, e.g. get from one part of screen to another -
very annoying, comare that to Lara where getting from one part of the
screen to another is actually part of the fun-ness of game)
solitaire (mouse only)
> whatever, otherwise it would be extremely bloody boring! Replace all guns
> with cursors you have to aim. Replace all aircraft in flight sims with
> cursors that fly like planes. Replace all people who can move with cursors
> you guide around. Err, no :) I know that's not exactly your point, but you
> did say you could just as well replace the people in PE. No you can't, and
> if you could, you wouldn't anyway.
it's not about the shape but about functionality. And we are only
talking about replacing the control elements, not environment. If a
character (or a thing or whatever) only has similar functionality to
mouse cursor then it can be replaced by mouse cursor without really
changing the game (it might not be visually as interesting but visual
part gets old really quickly so it doesn't matter much). however if the
entity (character, NPC, thing etc.) has some significant functionality
different from mouse cursor then it cannot be replaced by mouse pointer.
does an aircraft have similar functionality to mouse cursor? I guess
not. do the characters in PE differ from mouse cursor? no, you do all
the significant stuff using mouse cursor anyway.
> > > Err, no, lol. Not at all. No train. Just a *huge*, open landscape, you
> an
> > > M-16, a truckload of soldiers, and a co-ordinated assault down a hill
> into a
> > > village held by Russians. With some T-72s. No girls involved. No trains.
> > > Just tense, keep-your-head-down, ground warfare. With some driving
> involved
> > > :)
> >
> > ok, so I'm back, I checked the demos but didn't find the game I was
> > talking about, it looks like it's not flashpoint. that's too bad because
> > it looked like fairly interesting action/adventure game that I cannot
> > find now... hey, I said in the beginning that what I think is flashpoint
> > is not flashpoint:-)
>
> Well, I thought you said it might not be the same one. Go try Operation
> Flashpoint, then, anyway. Then come and tell me it's more like LSL than TR,
> alright? :-)
I'll see what I can do about it... (time! time! time!!!)
erik
Mustang
> Mustang wrote:
> >
> > No no no no no, Erik. No :)
> >
> > Aiming in a first person shooter is NOTHING like pointing and clicking
in a
> > graphical adventure game. Nothing. And you know it. Just because you use
the
>
> I am not saying it's same in all aspects (see above) but it is still
> pointing and clicking, same method of control.
No, it's not, dammit, man! And I don't have the time to, and really can't be
arsed to, reply to all of this post. So I'll snip most of it out.
> > keys for Tomb Raider are synonymous with turning with the mouse in a
FPS.
>
> no. the keys in TR control Lara. the mouse controls cursor (and in
> most cases viewpoint follows cursor or character follows cursor).
Okay, so TR doesn't have a visible cursor, fine. Project Eden does. Find a
demo of 'Severance: Blade of Darkness' (or 'Blade: Edge of Darkness' as it's
called in the US and some other places, I think). It's 3rd person, much like
TR and PE, except you have no cursor, yet you control it with the mouse. So,
by your reckoning, it is just like TR. Only difference; you turn the
character with the mouse, and not keys. Forwards and backwards are the same.
Jump is the same, and so on. Climbing onto ledges is a little more
automatic, and the character isn't quite as versatile, but that's it.
You walk near to useable object, and press a use key. That actives whichever
object. That's exactly how TR does it. With PE, you don't just have to walk
up to an object and press 'use', but you have to put your cursor on
whichever bit of the environment you want to interact with, and press 'use'.
Actually more complicated, isn't it? I'd personally say that with the cursor
(which is effectively where the character is *looking* (i.e. direct control
over the character)), you're doing more interaction than with Lara, where
that component is taken away. She does it for you - you just have to run
round pressing action wherever you think it might do something.
> > How about a joystick for TR? You use it to turn left and right (can be
>
> it controls Lara, not cursor on the screen. big difference.
But you could say that you control the character, and the cursor represents
where the character is looking, no?
You could effectively place a cursor in front of Lara, showing exactly where
she was looking. What would you say then?
> > I remember correctly, so can the people in Project Eden. You don't make
LSL
>
> but all the significant actions are done using mouse (at least that's
> what it seems like from demo, IIRC).
Well, the left mouse button is your 'action' button, and left/right mouse is
your left/right in TR. And?
You do manually have to *move* your characters. You don't point and click.
You *guide* your character, just as in TR. In fact, you have more control in
PE, because characters can run forwards/backwards/left/right in relation to
where they're looking. With Lara, you're pretty limited to moving in the
exact direction she's facing, in terms of running to places.
> > jump. You don't have to manually time things and aim things, or directly
be
> > responsible for his very moves. In PE, you do. In TR, you do. In any
FPS,
> > you do. You turn differently to TR, and with the exception of TR, you
can
>
> it doesn't matter. imagine:
>
> you eat a cake.
>
> you control a man who eats the cake.
>
> big difference, right? there's a similar difference between TR and the
> mouse cursor games - in TR are are one step closer to controlling the
> environment, when you use mouse cursor you just watch characters to
> follow it (at best) instead of really doing it. [note that I am not
> saying that playing TR is like eating a cake, I'm saying that TR is one
> step closer to being there]
No, stop talking rubbish! :)
In PE you control the characters. In TR, you control the character. In TR,
you stand in the right place and press *action* to use things, in PE you
move to the right place AND look in the right place and press *action* to
use things. Just because you have to look in the right direction (and for
accuracy the screen has a cursor on it, big deal), does not mean you are not
controlling the characters.
I see what you're trying to say, I honestly do, and I know what you mean,
but I still say you're wrong.
> > freely look up and down whilst moving, but otherwise, they're pretty
much
> > all the same. TR does have a wealth of moves, as well, yes. But then so
do
> > 3D platformers, normally. Which TR largely is, in effect.
>
> IIRC in PE you do all the significant stuff by clicking on objects.
> The characters do not play any role really.
And then neither does Lara. You guide something around a level, pretty
action to make things happen, and that's about it.
Provided the cursor can 'jump' and 'climb', you're alright. They do that in
PE, Lara does it in TR. So?
> the point is that in TR you control character which in turn does
> something in/to environment.
Yes, you turn her, you move her, you press action. That's just how it works
in PE. Yes, I know you bloody have a cursor to enable you to manually
control small switches and things, but that's because it's not all done for
you as in TR. The game is different. TR relies on Lara simply standing in
the right place against the right object. PE requires you to be near an
object (don't have to stand direction in front of it), and for you to *tell*
the character to interact with whichever object. It's far less 'on rails' in
comparison with TR.
> in most games that use mouse (with mouse cursor, that's the crucial
> part) you control environment using the cursor and just watch characters
> follow it. so the characters are insignificant (regardless whether you
> can actually control them directly - if all the significant actions are
> performed using mouse the characters are just extra fluff).
They don't *follow* the cursor. They run in the direction of the cursor.
Lara runs in the direction she is facing. You change the way she faces with
two arrow keys. In other games, you change the direction the cursor is point
AND with it the direction the character is facing (for they are one in the
same) with the mouse's x-axis.
And remember, you don't actually make Lara activate things. You move your
position in the level to the right place, and press action for something to
be carried out. Lara's character model is just a visual aid showing you that
interaction. Just like characters in any other game.
But without characters, it'd be a pretty crap game. No people, etc.
> if you don't think that it makes sense then why do you think Lara is
> so popular but characters from other (sometime very popular) games are
> not? The characters that are popular (Mario?) are basically in the same
> category as Lara (you control them, they do something in/to
> environment).
Popularity is not related to control methods. Lara is 3rd person, Mario is
3rd person. In case it's escaped your attention, they're both originally
console games. Consoles don't typically use mice for control. And they're
things that have taken off. Lara is a good character, in a good theme, in a
good game. I guess if you like Mario, the same stands. Most mouse-controlled
games are first person, where you are put in the position of the character,
rather than outside their body. So you don't tend to associate with them in
the same way, obviously.
The woman from Oni has had a few mentions, and I think that can be
mouse-controlled.
I'm sure more major characters and franchises will emerge, regardless of
control style.
> > > > And Project Eden is just like Tomb Raider! Move character around in
the
>
> on a very shallow level (just like java is like C++ on a very shallow
> level but it's really more like smalltalk; or prince is homosexual on
> very shallow level but he's really not etc.)
But if you took away that cursor, and left in the mouse control (a la
Severance, as mentioned above), you'd end up with Tomb Raider again. Move to
relevant position, press 'action', watch character interact with
environment. You'd turn with the mouse (and *not* move any kind of cursor,
please note), and that's be the only difference. Imagine Tomb Raider with
mouse control. Not a mouse cursor, because you don't need one for TR, as you
know. Lara doesn't have to be told to interact with specific items, she does
it automatically.
Where would that fall with you, then? TR with left/right mouse-control?
> you wrote it youself: you'd have to replace Lara with cursor that has
> functionality that most mouse cursors do not have. however you could
> replace the characters in PE with basically regular cursors, no
> additional actions required.
>
> so basically the cursor that would replace Lara would not be a
> cursor:-)
Well, nor in PE. The characters do jump, do pull up on ledges, and operate
things (yes, with input from the mouse). That's what Lara does, minus the
mouse. But then it's simplified, with a single 'action' button that makes
her do whichever action is necessary depending on whatever you're standing
in front of.
> it's not about the gameplay, it's about the interface (style of
> interface). whether you point to a drawer and it opens or whether you
> point to a spaceship and it explodes is irrelevant.
So, with TR, when you *run* up to a switch, and use it, or *run* up to a
cupboard, and search it. They're not the same? Because in PE, you have to
*run* up to an object, then use it. You don't point at it and click.
Characters do not move automatically - *you* have to control them. In
adventure games, they do move automatically.
> procedural programming: you describe what you want computer to do in
> simple steps (where computer already knows how to perform each simple
> step). it's basically like any 'normal' quide on how to do something.
>
> declarative programming: you state what you want (and suupply computer
> with all the required information to do it). but you don't describe how
> to actually do it (it looks a bit like magic).
>
> [tr = procedural, mouse cursor = declarative]
Right, so you really do tell Lara to *move* that switch, or *open* that
drawer, or *pick up* that gun, do you? No, you set your position (on the
correct square) and direction (face a switch, a drawer, etc), and press
ACTION. In PE, say, you set your position, you face the right direction, and
you generally have to specify what you want to operate/pick-up, and then you
press ACTION. In neither case do you specify exactly what you want doing.
You identify something that can be interacted with, set your character up to
do whatever kind of interaction will ensue, and you let the character take
care of the rest. Hence, I'd classify them both as declarative.
> the distinction is somewhat fuzzy - for example this is a list of
> games that go gradually from being TR like to being mouse cursor games:
>
> TR (no cursor)
>
> PE (cursor is significant but the characters are still somewhat
> significant)
And Severance is like PE with no cursor. Which would make it like TR. It
does take out the exactness of specifying objects to use, but it's otherwise
the same.
> quake (character is almost non-existent)
No, that's just because you don't see the character. You still have to stand
in the right place, face the right direction, and press action. It's no
different. Some games you have to look at exactly what you want to use
(AvP2, NOLF), whilst in others, you only need to stand in the right place
and press action or use. Say, a door. Stand anywhere in front of it, press
use, and it opens. Jedi Knight does it, and Half-Life. That's equivalent to
TR (and Severance). AvP2 and NOLF are equivalent to PE.
> adventure games (in most cases characters are just a visual
> decoration, often annoying because you have to wait them to do something
> which is really boring, e.g. get from one part of screen to another -
> very annoying, comare that to Lara where getting from one part of the
> screen to another is actually part of the fun-ness of game)
Well, in PE, you have to run from A to B. In TR, you have to run from A to
B. What's the difference? I'm sorry, but I don't follow.
In graphical adventures (LSL, Monkey Island), yes, it can be boring. In TR
and PE, there is no difference WHATSOEVER. Mouse don't even come into this,
Erik. Stand on one side of a room in TR, and get to the other by pressing
*forward*. Stand on one side of a room in PE, and get to the other side by
pressing *forward*. Yet... PE is boring, and TR is not? I'm sorry, but
that's the most pathetic argument of all.
> does an aircraft have similar functionality to mouse cursor? I guess
> not. do the characters in PE differ from mouse cursor? no, you do all
> the significant stuff using mouse cursor anyway.
But in an aircraft, you move around. You don't need to see the plane. You
just need to move around in the air in a manner which is somewhere close to
how a real aircraft would move around. Seeing the plane is just an optional
extra. But let's face it, flight sims would be dire without seeing the
planes. It'd be a huge step back from reality. And so would PE, or TR - or
any other game - if we just decided that the character was not actually
necessary to achieve the objectives in the game.
So, effectively, it's a moot point anyway.
> > Well, I thought you said it might not be the same one. Go try Operation
> > Flashpoint, then, anyway. Then come and tell me it's more like LSL than
TR,
> > alright? :-)
>
> I'll see what I can do about it... (time! time! time!!!)
>
> erik
Yes, time, time, time! I'm wasting no-end of it by arguing about this with
you! :-)
-Mustang Silver
Mustang
> =>> The runes were cast, the portents thundered and then "Mustang"
> warbled on about "Re: Dream TR key layouts?" in alt.games.tombraider <<=
>
> > I didn't think too much about the way in which the use keys worked. I
just
> > figured you'd got it thought out all sensically, and didn't worry about
it
> > :)
>
> You dare accuse me of both thinking and general forethought?! Infidel!
Erm, erm... ahh, yes, my bad...
> > Hehe, you're making Lara sound like a one-woman military operation now
:)
> > Well, most things you've said are rather combat-environment
orientated...
> > but I wouldn't mind either way.
>
> Ah that's just my bias -- put it down to the Operation Flashpoint and
> Counterstrike influence. Besides being able to order your unit around in
> OPF you can also radio HQ to indicate mission status from time to time and
> it's a lot of fun. Perhaps we could call it "cellphone menu" instead. Or
> satellite phone given her worldwide roaming nature.
Yes, too much OFP and CS for you! I would think the same, but then I always
realise this is *Lara*, and therefore it shouldn't be about total warfare,
really...
<snip>
>
> ... and TRNG gets finally gets a name:
> "TR6, The Talky Chickflick-like Adventure"
But it sure sounds interesting from your examples! :)
> A grid inventory system would stop her carrying everything at once.
<snip>
> So even though that was a huge list of things that go *boom* (and
*pffhht*,
> *zap*, and *broink!*) she'd only be able to carry a few of them at a time.
Yes, yes, I know. And maybe it should depend on whether she actually had a
backpack or not. If not, she'd carry a main gun with a strap, and tuck a
pistol in the top of her jeans, and a couple of things in her pockets (keys,
spare clips, etc). If she did, she could carry 3 or 4 weapons, considerably
more ammo, a few healthpacks, and larger items (carry larger items for
longer, I mean - in the backpack-less case she'd have to just hold onto them
with one hand and try to make use of them quickly, or put them down and
remember where she left them). I think that would be good. Inventory
capacity would depend on what point in the game you're at, and how well
equipped you've managed to become.
> Outcast had the best ingame solution to the "where DO all the weapons go?"
> question that plagues shooters
<snip>
Yes, Outcast had an ingenious solution, I remember it well :)
-Mustang Silver
snark^
"Mustang" wrote:
> I wrote:
> > A grid inventory system would stop her carrying everything at once.
> > So even though that was a huge list of things that go *boom* (and
> > *pffhht*, *zap*, and *broink!*) she'd only be able to carry a few of
> > them at a time.
>
> Yes, yes, I know. And maybe it should depend on whether she actually had
a
> backpack or not. If not, she'd carry a main gun with a strap, and tuck a
> pistol in the top of her jeans, and a couple of things in her pockets
(keys,
> spare clips, etc). If she did, she could carry 3 or 4 weapons,
considerably
> more ammo, a few healthpacks, and larger items (carry larger items for
> longer, I mean - in the backpack-less case she'd have to just hold onto
them
> with one hand and try to make use of them quickly, or put them down and
> remember where she left them). I think that would be good. Inventory
> capacity would depend on what point in the game you're at, and how well
> equipped you've managed to become.
Actually the best example of this might be the original UFO: Enemy Unknown
(X-Com) game. In that they had a picture of the character with small grid
squares next to the parts of the parts of the figure that could carry
items, besides a large grid block (4x5 I think) for the backpack -- two
squares on each shoulder, two on each boot, and an U-shaped arrangement of
six squares for the the belt. Shape of the items and weapons defined where
you could put them: for example a pistol took up 1x2 squares and could only
be stored on the sides of the belt or the backpack; grenades, ammo clips
and the like of smaller items only took up 1 square and could ber stored
anywhere.
Something like this plus a few points for attaching slung weapons like you
mention would be ideal.
Mustang
<snip me wonderful ideas ;) >
> Actually the best example of this might be the original UFO: Enemy Unknown
> (X-Com) game. In that they had a picture of the character with small grid
> squares next to the parts of the parts of the figure that could carry
> items, besides a large grid block (4x5 I think) for the backpack -- two
> squares on each shoulder, two on each boot, and an U-shaped arrangement of
> six squares for the the belt. Shape of the items and weapons defined
where
> you could put them: for example a pistol took up 1x2 squares and could
only
> be stored on the sides of the belt or the backpack; grenades, ammo clips
> and the like of smaller items only took up 1 square and could ber stored
> anywhere.
>
> Something like this plus a few points for attaching slung weapons like you
> mention would be ideal.
Right, someone mail Core and let them know, ASAP!!!
Or is it futile? ;)
Btw, I know UFO: Enemy Unknown came out on my Amiga, but... I never played
it. Although I don't need to have to understand what you said, naturally.
Just a FYI... because I know you care... ;)
-Mustang Silver
Ms T
I'm hoping that if the above (great) suggestions for the controls would
still be customizable? ;)
I use a non standard mouse (Logitech's TrackMan Marble 3 button) but the
above should still work.
However, the layout I've used since TR2 (since no mouse) is as follows
(if anyone cares):
Left Caps Lock=Crouch
a=Roll
s=Sprint (Dash)
d=Walk
f=Action
Spacebar=Draw Weapons
e=Jump
l=Light (cuz I kept hitting it in battle during an earlier version)
And I use the 10 key pad for movements:
Pad 2=back
Pad 8=forward
Pad 9&7=walk/sidestep right&left
Pad 0=look
This works best for my small hands, but yes, everyone is different.
Ms T
--
"The hardest struggle of all is to be something different from what the
average man is."
snark^
> I wrote:
> > Something like this plus a few points for attaching slung weapons like
you
> > mention would be ideal.
>
> Right, someone mail Core and let them know, ASAP!!!
>
> Or is it futile? ;)
Resistance IS futile. You will be assimilated. (Borg)
Resistance is useless; you will be EXTERMINATED! (Daleks)
I. LIKE. SHOUTING! RESISTANCE. IS. USELESS! (Vogons)
... and at this point I'd post my entire list of Borg/Dalek/Sci Fi
catchphrases but I'm at work and don't have access to my 2.7Terabytes of
obscure skiffy paraphernalia. Don't even have my taglines... **sniff!**
**sob!**
Time for an extreme oath: By the dark slimy tentacles of the Sweet And
Cuddly Cthulhu does Outlook Express not suX0r or what!? /me misses my
Forte Agent; sokay though -- I'll bravely try adding a tagline manually...
--
Dyslexic of Borg: Resistol is useless. You will have your ass laminated.
snark^
> .... [snip snark^'s keyboard magnum opus] ....
> I'm hoping that if the above (great) suggestions for the controls would
> still be customizable? ;)
Oh yeah. It'd be criminal these days not to have customisable keys.
> I use a non standard mouse (Logitech's TrackMan Marble 3 button) but the
> above should still work.
All it would take is swapping the 4th mouse button key to something I
didn't get around to assigning on the keyboard. My opinion is that if you
have 101+ keys a game had better make damn good use of all of them or die
trying.
> However, the layout I've used since TR2 (since no mouse) is as follows
> (if anyone cares):
>
> Left Caps Lock=Crouch
> a=Roll
> s=Sprint (Dash)
> d=Walk
> f=Action
> Spacebar=Draw Weapons
> e=Jump
> l=Light (cuz I kept hitting it in battle during an earlier version)
>
> And I use the 10 key pad for movements:
> Pad 2=back
> Pad 8=forward
> Pad 9&7=walk/sidestep right&left
> Pad 0=look
Mine was the usual but swapped to the left side of the keyboard coz me got
large-ish pseusopods:
Arrows = movement/turning
DEL/PGDN = sidestep
END = roll
PAD0 = freelook (under the pinky-tentacle on my right hand)
CTRL = action
ALT = jump
SHIFT = walk
SPACE = holster guns
z = sprint
x = crouch
a = flare (easier to reach than c)
With the key layout I posted the mouse would replace the
firing/using/turning and the usual FPS WASD layout for the rest. Although
it's just occured to me that I misseed out on having a lean left/right
move... (ought to be Q & E). Love to pack more stuff on the mouse but it'd
need 20 buttons and be about the size of an elephant in comparison.
--
An elephant: A mouse built to government specifications.
-- Lazarus Long, from Robert Heinlein's "Time Enough for Love"