Best incarnations of characters..
Jenn Dolari 'n' Mario Hernandez
On 3 Nov 1994, Chris Ozols wrote:
> Well, in the interests of non-boredom, here is what I think are the best
> versions of characters..
In the interests of making an AGSf2 post (I beat Classic edition today
at UTSA (YAY!)), here are my fave characters
> Ryu:
> ST. A close second is HF, the fireball-invinceable HK is a great weapon. ST
> Ryu just has so many ways to hurt you.
Agreed, the two hit flying uppercut is great against wall climbing foes,
his (non-invincible) dragon punch seems to go higher, his lunging forward
catches you by suprise and the rushing "down" punch eats low blocking foes.
> Blanka:
> HF. His "DFA" air ball is a big help. The increased speed of HF works in
> his advantage as well.
NEver really played him enough to say anything...
> Guile:
> CE. His priority makes him the best here. The slow speed helps him to
> trap and punish as well.
Agreed, only because I was on the receiving ends of those traps...
> Ken:
> HF. Just plain better here than anywhere else. 2 hit DP creates massive
> damage.
I don't know, I like Super Turbo Ken myself. The funky kicks can take
off a lot of damage if done in a row (if you can remember which one does
what), plus the 4 hit dragon punch which, while not doing extensive
damage, just plain looks great!
> Chun Li:
> ST. The walk forward & SC is her best weapon. The inclusion of the SBK
> helps a lot as well. She is really made for the speed of turbo..
Chun Li...many a win with her....Super Turbo has to be the best. The
faster speeds just make her shine!
> Zangief:
> HF. Kick lariat. 'Nuff said.
Never really played him...
> Dhalsim:
> Probably super. A close second is ST, but I think the slow speed helps
> him a lot.
But if you can remember what button does what in his Yoga Drills, you've
got a really refined character. I have to vote Super Turbo on this one.
> T Hawk:
> Who cares? If I had to pick, super.
Hey! I like T. Hawk...Definately Super. The slow speed helps him take
out foes (at leasts around here he does...)
> Fei Long:
> ST. Just plain better than super. Speed helps.
Agreed...
> Cammy:
> ST, I suppose. More stuff.
Super Turbo Cammy is a homocidal killer in these parts.
> DJ:
> ST, no question.
Never played him...
> Balrog:
> ST. More ways to kill you. Bufferable c. strong & dashing c. RH big help.
> SC dominates.
Same
> Vega:
> ST. Flip kick really needed. Speed helps, as well.
Gives the chunster a run for her money! I like the controlable flips...
> Sagat:
> I'd go with super. As far as I can tell, there isn't much difference
> with any other previous versions of him, but the bufferable RH helps.
Looks like Super Turbo Sagat forgot to eat his Wheaties before playing in
Super Turbo. Why'd they tone him down so much? 5 hit Tiger Uppercuts
are nice, but they aren't nearly as damaging as the Super Version...or
any other version for that matter!
> Bison:
> You know, I really don't know. I don't want to get in a fight with the
> Bison people around here.
Well, you can't play as Bison in Classic, but I think the Classic Bison
is the best of all. Repeatable Scissor Kicks, Massive Head Stomp
power...wow!
Jenn
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CHUN LI - KITANA - SONYA - MILEENA - CAMMY
We ain't feminine, ya say? Don't make us prove it!!
mher...@lonestar.utsa.edu
CHARLOTTE - MORRIGAN - SHAMPOO - FELICIA - NAKORURU
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=P
: Well, in the interests of non-boredom, here is what I think are the best
: versions of characters..
: Guile:
: CE. His priority makes him the best here. The slow speed helps him to
: trap and punish as well.
You're kidding right? Almost everyone else here can agree ORIGINAL Guile
was the strongest. Remember the DAMAGE a flash kick did? Remember how
easy it was to do any air throw?
: Dhalsim:
: Probably super. A close second is ST, but I think the slow speed helps
: him a lot.
I really don't think "slow = better". Geez, is Dalshim fucking slow
enough in ST?
: T Hawk:
: Who cares? If I had to pick, super.
Is there is difference? Wait, did TH get a new move, beside the "super",
in ST?
: Sagat:
: I'd go with super. As far as I can tell, there isn't much difference
: with any other previous versions of him, but the bufferable RH helps.
I don't think so. Do you remember how much DAMAGE HF Sagat did? If it
was the first hit, it did a SPD! In HFm Sagat's fireballs did the most
damage of all the versions.
: Bison:
: You know, I really don't know. I don't want to get in a fight with the
: Bison people around here.
CE, the cheap/corner trap Bison. Yah, yah, cheap, skilless, piece of
shit. But hey, he was stronger! <Hey I liked him!>
--
------------------...@netcom.com---------------------------------
Paintball only hurts if you get hit. | Image Jean Claude Van Damme trying to
Team InterNet# 363 | explain the concept of Street
---------------------|-----------------| Fighter II to Letterman.
Bolo Yeung would make|In SF2 the Movie,|----------------------------------------
the perfect M. Bison.|everytime someone is thrown, yell out, "Cheap!"
---------------------|----------------------------------------------------------
=P
: >Sagat:
: >I'd go with super. As far as I can tell, there isn't much difference
: >with any other previous versions of him, but the bufferable RH helps.
: What? CE Sagat was _the_man_.
: Uppercut hurt, good stun power, great recovery, and the best
: tiger knee of 'em all.
Isn't CE Sagat the exact same as HF Sagat except HF Sagat's Uppercut goes
down faster and is slightly harder to kick him out of one.
: >Bison:
: >You know, I really don't know. I don't want to get in a fight with the
: >Bison people around here.
: Oh, are _you_ the guy who's been dogging Bison?
: Fine. I'll take this one on.
: CE Bison had a scissor kick that flew over low objects easily
: (and occasionally, a sonic boom) and a torpoedo that
: did the same, easily, and did ridiculous damage if blocked,
: to boot. Kick length as long as a crouching forward from
: Guile (maybe a pixel longer) but against quite a few characters
: it won't hit low.
: SSF2 Bison had a nifty DFA attack which helped greatly against
: Guile, the headstomp acutally takes off damage if blocked,
: the charge times overall were shortened, BUT the
: scissor kick doesn't fly over anything, and the
: torpedo has a hell of a time too (and the torpedo does
: wimpy damage). BUT his standing forward hits all low targets
: and his roundhouse whips out quickly for good damage.
: Hm... if you want to kick Sagat's ass, CE was the way to go.
: If you wanted to kill Guile, SSF2 was the way.
: I'd reluctantly take CE over SSF2.
: -rpm
Chris Ozols
>
>Chris Ozols (ozol...@student.msu.edu) wrote:
>: Well, in the interests of non-boredom, here is what I think are the best
>: versions of characters..
>
>: Guile:
>: CE. His priority makes him the best here. The slow speed helps him to
>: trap and punish as well.
>
>You're kidding right? Almost everyone else here can agree ORIGINAL Guile
>was the strongest. Remember the DAMAGE a flash kick did? Remember how
>easy it was to do any air throw?
Thanks for all the comments people. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that I
didn't include "classic" SF2 in my analysis because, well, I forgot all
about it (how could I?). You're right. Classic Guile kicks everyone's
ass up and down...
-Chris
"Welcome to your new home."
"Uhh, where's the TV?"
"Television is the work of the devil."
"I know. Where is it?"
Julien Beasley
Ryu: HF
Honda: ST
Blanka: HF
Guile: Classic
Ken: HF
Chun Li: ST
Zangief: Classic
Dhalsim: Classic
Balrog: ST
Vega: ST
Sagat: HF
Bison: ST
T-Hawk: Super
Cammy: Super
Fei Long: ST
DeeJay: ST
-Julien
Su, Kai-Chang J.
>Well, in the interests of non-boredom, here is what I think are the best
>versions of characters..
>
>ST. A close second is HF, the fireball-invinceable HK is a great weapon. ST
>Ryu just has so many ways to hurt you.
Agree.
>Blanka:
>HF. His "DFA" air ball is a big help. The increased speed of HF works in
>his advantage as well.
Ok.
>Guile:
>CE. His priority makes him the best here. The slow speed helps him to
>trap and punish as well.
Completely wrong. Classic Guile was the best. Redizzy combos, magic
throw, handcuffs, etc.etc.
>Ken:
>HF. Just plain better here than anywhere else. 2 hit DP creates massive
>damage.
Ok.
>Chun Li:
>ST. The walk forward & SC is her best weapon. The inclusion of the SBK
>helps a lot as well. She is really made for the speed of turbo..
Ok.
>Zangief:
>HF. Kick lariat. 'Nuff said.
Wrong, original Zangief was his best. You could short-kick then 360 over
and over and over.
>Dhalsim:
>Probably super. A close second is ST, but I think the slow speed helps
>him a lot.
Wrong, CE Dhalsim's super drill made him too powerful.
>T Hawk:
>Who cares? If I had to pick, super.
>
>Fei Long:
>ST. Just plain better than super. Speed helps.
>
>Cammy:
>ST, I suppose. More stuff.
>
>DJ:
>ST, no question.
>
>Balrog:
>ST. More ways to kill you. Bufferable c. strong & dashing c. RH big help.
>SC dominates.
>
>Vega:
>ST. Flip kick really needed. Speed helps, as well.
>
>Sagat:
>I'd go with super. As far as I can tell, there isn't much difference
>with any other previous versions of him, but the bufferable RH helps.
I think that Sagat's Tiger Knees were better in the previous edition.
>Bison:
>You know, I really don't know. I don't want to get in a fight with the
>Bison people around here.
>
>Well, appreciated. As always, this is all IMO.
Allen Klein
>In article <3999j5$i...@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu>,
>Chris Ozols <ozol...@student.msu.edu> wrote:
>> [...]
>>Blanka:
>>HF. His "DFA" air ball is a big help. The increased speed of HF works in
>>his advantage as well.
>
>half a brain is going to do something to counterattack it) and the hops
serve
>virtually no purpose except charging the SC, which sucks mule
anyways... And >the recovery time...Ugh, I just won't get into it....
If you buffer the forward hop into the first hit of the headbutt (or
whatever) very nasty things can happen. Although this is just use #2 for
the move it is totally vicious.
--
"callous frigid chill..."
-----------= Jamie Klein =--------------------= yan...@tiac.net =---------
"...nothing left to kill" - Metallica
Thomas Calvin Cannon
m.a.hall <M.A....@bradford.ac.uk> wrote:
>Seth James Killian (skil...@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu) wrote:
>: ozol...@student.msu.edu (Chris Ozols) writes:
>
>: >Well, in the interests of non-boredom, here is what I think are the best
>: >versions of characters..
>
>: >Chun Li:
>: >ST. The walk forward & SC is her best weapon. The inclusion of the SBK
>: >helps a lot as well. She is really made for the speed of turbo..
>
>Nah, Super was best cos of the longer legs. Long enough to keep Human
>Zangiefs away. I now consider Chun's SC to be the work of the Devil
>to cause all Chun Li players to play poorly, relying on the SC to reel
>out cheap win after cheap win until a half-decent Akuma comes along...
>Also, that flying sbk from the ground was pure nastiness. Up, down 1 hit and
>crossed up opponent...
Chun Li is better in Super Turbo for the following reasons
1) RH neckbreaker at any point: This basically gives Chun Li a 'hop'
in addition to her normal jump. It can also get her out of many a
nasty situation, like neckbreaking over one of Balrog's low rushing
punches.
2) FB + SC: Not devestating, but this trick allows Chun to nearly COMPLETELY
control the match's spacing once her Super is charged. You literally
_cannot_ flip forward over an FB, or you will be SCed.
3) New motion for SBK: Allows Chun to play her customary standing, poking
game and still have access to the SBK. The SBK can be used to approach
and phase through FBs if you're feeling lucky. Gives Chun a whisper of
a chance against Sagat (where she had zero chance in Super).
For all that, I'll take a minor range cut and lower priority on the
low RH (standing forward fills this hole in nicely anyway).
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
=P
: In article <leechCy...@netcom.com>, le...@netcom.com (=P) writes...
: >RPM (st...@jane.uh.edu) wrote:
: >: >Sagat:
: >: >I'd go with super. As far as I can tell, there isn't much difference
: >: >with any other previous versions of him, but the bufferable RH helps.
: >
: >: What? CE Sagat was _the_man_.
: >: Uppercut hurt, good stun power, great recovery, and the best
: >: tiger knee of 'em all.
: >
: >Isn't CE Sagat the exact same as HF Sagat except HF Sagat's Uppercut goes
: >down faster and is slightly harder to kick him out of one.
: No....
: HF Sagat had a longer delay after the fireball trap, and thus
: his FB trap execution was just about non-existant.
: BUT He made up for it by having the mother of all uppercuts, 24% damage
: per hit, sometimes a shade more.
: CE Sagat had good damage on the TU, not as good as HF, but superior
: recovery.
: SSF2 Sagat nearly has the TU power of HF, the recovery of CE, but a sucky
: tiger knee.
: -rpm
I can't play Super Sagat. I have learned to rely on the HF TU too much.
Super Sagat TU does like double of Ryu's, not the 24% I've come to
expect. Well, I cast my vote for HF, TU more than makes up for the
recovery and anyways if you want to trap so bad, play R/K.
=P
<snip>
: Wrong - SF1 Sagat, wins this one easy, peasy... SF1 Ryu and Ken would
: probably lose vs the newbie SF2 versions, cos they probably take a ton of
: damage with their _slow_ recovery, but Sagat doesn't suffer from this prob.
: All you have to do is to remember to block those dragon punches:)
Gimme a break, you can't compare SF1 to SF2. SF1 Sagat can't do a TU or
a ducking tiger. He made up for it with a rushing knee that did 1/3 of
your life. Geez, SF1 can't even throw.
Hell, that strongest fighter is SF1 Ryu or Ken. They are exactly the
same in SF1 and their FB/HK does 1/3 your life (1/6 if blocked); DPs do half.
Kenneth Hsu
: >
: >Nah, Super was best cos of the longer legs. Long enough to keep Human
: >Zangiefs away. I now consider Chun's SC to be the work of the Devil
: >to cause all Chun Li players to play poorly, relying on the SC to reel
: >out cheap win after cheap win until a half-decent Akuma comes along...
: >Also, that flying sbk from the ground was pure nastiness. Up, down 1 hit and
: >crossed up opponent...
I must admit sometimes I loose a match using Turbo Chun Li because I
thought I have my SC charged but it is not.....
: Chun Li is better in Super Turbo for the following reasons
: 1) RH neckbreaker at any point: This basically gives Chun Li a 'hop'
: in addition to her normal jump. It can also get her out of many a
: nasty situation, like neckbreaking over one of Balrog's low rushing
: punches.
Not to mention knocking DJ/Dhalsim out of their crouching slides,
knocking over most of Dhalsim's spears and mummys. Honda's torpedos etc
etc.....
: 2) FB + SC: Not devestating, but this trick allows Chun to nearly COMPLETELY
: control the match's spacing once her Super is charged. You literally
: _cannot_ flip forward over an FB, or you will be SCed.
Agreed - but for some of the faster jumping characters they will be able
to hit your first.... (Blanka and Vega comes into mind..)
: 3) New motion for SBK: Allows Chun to play her customary standing, poking
: game and still have access to the SBK. The SBK can be used to approach
: and phase through FBs if you're feeling lucky. Gives Chun a whisper of
: a chance against Sagat (where she had zero chance in Super).
True - but still I don't think I have used the SBK for anything since
TSSF2 came out. Capcom SHOULD have kept that one invincible SBK frame
IMHO.... Even though the new triple kick is not so bad after all....
Also, I think Chun Li should be able to keep spinning in the air for a
bit longer for her air SBKs. And she should keep spinning until she
reaches the ground (like in HF) and not flipping out of it in mid air...
Or at least they should have made it variable like Ken/Ryu's air HK. It
would then be a lot more useful...
: For all that, I'll take a minor range cut and lower priority on the
: low RH (standing forward fills this hole in nicely anyway).
Does the crouching RH also come out slower than in SSF2? I just don't
remember that back in SSF2 days that someone can jab me out of the
crouching RH....
Ken Hsu <e332...@mailbox.uq.oz.au>
m.a.hall
: m.a.hall <M.A....@bradford.ac.uk> wrote:
: >Seth James Killian (skil...@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: >: ozol...@student.msu.edu (Chris Ozols) writes:
: >
: >: >Well, in the interests of non-boredom, here is what I think are the best
: >: >versions of characters..
: >
: >: >Chun Li:
: >: >ST. The walk forward & SC is her best weapon. The inclusion of the SBK
: >: >helps a lot as well. She is really made for the speed of turbo..
: >: I'd go ST, but that crouching RH from Super is sorely missed.
: >
: >Nah, Super was best cos of the longer legs. Long enough to keep Human
: >Zangiefs away. I now consider Chun's SC to be the work of the Devil
: >to cause all Chun Li players to play poorly, relying on the SC to reel
: >out cheap win after cheap win until a half-decent Akuma comes along...
: >Also, that flying sbk from the ground was pure nastiness. Up, down 1 hit and
: >crossed up opponent...
: Chun Li is better in Super Turbo for the following reasons
: 1) RH neckbreaker at any point: This basically gives Chun Li a 'hop'
: in addition to her normal jump. It can also get her out of many a
: nasty situation, like neckbreaking over one of Balrog's low rushing
: punches.
Eh? This isn't new(re when Balrog charges). Of course the original Supes
never fough ST Balrog, with only the cheat code supes there.
: 2) FB + SC: Not devestating, but this trick allows Chun to nearly COMPLETELY
: control the match's spacing once her Super is charged. You literally
: _cannot_ flip forward over an FB, or you will be SCed.
This is the Devil's corruption I mentioned. I don't like this at all even
though it works. It's not Chun Li. It's Ken wearing drag. If you can
still remember playing and winning with Classic Chun, you'll realise the
corruption of the character here. I'm not just being smiley-humourous.
Classic Chun players won a hell of a lot, because they knew they had to
be pixel accurate vs everyone. Discipline and skill are the facets of the
Chun Li player, rather than humongous damage combos which take no talent at
all to do.
: 3) New motion for SBK: Allows Chun to play her customary standing, poking
: game and still have access to the SBK. The SBK can be used to approach
: and phase through FBs if you're feeling lucky. Gives Chun a whisper of
: a chance against Sagat (where she had zero chance in Super).
Sagat's just joined Bison and Balrog in my 'completely disagree with
certain netters about' replacing T.Hawk.
Re the SBK. Old SBK movement was perfect. This was classic(not Classic)
Chun Li action. 'Just as you think you got past that standing forward,
standing fierce, suddenly a perfect SBK comes out which outpriotorizes
you...' New SBK requires you to charge back, which simply has no
disguise whatsoever. Apart from the annoying bug which makes the SBK come
out at silly times, the old flying SBK when done from the ground (the
crossup maneuver I've mentioned) is either impossible or just pretty
damned hard to do. A moderately (has a use against Akuma and charging the
unholy Supercombo) useless move now. For some idiotic reason, hurricanes
outprioritize SBK. In other words, I don't understand you prefering the
new SBK. You could go through projectiles easier before and with more
style. You mentioned a SBK combo which you could do now and couldn't do
before once. Once combo replacing a once vital part of Chun's defence
system doesn't cut it.
: For all that, I'll take a minor range cut and lower priority on the
: low RH (standing forward fills this hole in nicely anyway).
Standing forward is noticeably shorter range. You appear to have lost
your soul to the Super Turbo Chun. Start jabbing and waggling at the
start button (re using the nearly Super Chun code) and become a born-again
Chun Li player rather than a 99hit Supercombo ignore priority and skill
devil worshipper. Tambourines, confessionals, I see the Cult of Super
Chun becoming a world religion before S(S?)F3 comes out.
:---
: Tom Cannon
: ink...@leland.stanford.edu
Reverend Mike Hall, 1st Church of Playing Chun Li in the correct spirit.
K.E.Ang<Daytona USA Champ>
> Gimme a break, you can't compare SF1 to SF2. SF1 Sagat can't do a TU or
> a ducking tiger. He made up for it with a rushing knee that did 1/3 of
> your life. Geez, SF1 can't even throw.
>
> Hell, that strongest fighter is SF1 Ryu or Ken. They are exactly the
> same in SF1 and their FB/HK does 1/3 your life (1/6 if blocked); DPs do half.
>
I've done it personally. You can get a 3 hit DP if you are at extreme
point blank range with Sagat.Don't know about Retsu and the rest cos I
only did it to Sagat.Maybe becos' he is the tallest ... Any SF1 players
out there who can elaborate on this?
Keith.
Thomas Calvin Cannon
m.a.hall <M.A....@bradford.ac.uk> wrote:
[snip]
>: 2) FB + SC: Not devestating, but this trick allows Chun to nearly COMPLETELY
>: control the match's spacing once her Super is charged. You literally
>: _cannot_ flip forward over an FB, or you will be SCed.
>This is the Devil's corruption I mentioned. I don't like this at all even
>though it works. It's not Chun Li. It's Ken wearing drag. If you can
>still remember playing and winning with Classic Chun, you'll realise the
>corruption of the character here. I'm not just being smiley-humourous.
>Classic Chun players won a hell of a lot, because they knew they had to
>be pixel accurate vs everyone. Discipline and skill are the facets of the
>Chun Li player, rather than humongous damage combos which take no talent at
>all to do.
Oh please,
With all due respect Scott (as a fellow die-hard Chun), Chun deserves a break.
I agree completely with you that a good Chun demands precision, discipline,
and skill, but I think that you're seriously over-estimating the usefulness of
the above trick.
Consider that Chun's kikoken doesn't travel the length of the screen. All
you really have to do to avoid getting SCed is jump back repeatedly.
Also consider than, in order to pull of this trick, Chun can't charge for
another kikoken.
The FB + SC trick is basically a defensive wrinkle. It makes people think
twice about attacking when the Super meter is charged, and punishes over-
aggression. Because of its defensive nature, it really doesn't have the
'come-back' power that Balrog's SC has -- if you'r opponent's ahead they
can just walk away from the kikoken.
>
>: 3) New motion for SBK: Allows Chun to play her customary standing, poking
>: game and still have access to the SBK. The SBK can be used to approach
>: and phase through FBs if you're feeling lucky. Gives Chun a whisper of
>: a chance against Sagat (where she had zero chance in Super).
>Sagat's just joined Bison and Balrog in my 'completely disagree with
>certain netters about' replacing T.Hawk.
Huh? What does this mean?
>Re the SBK. Old SBK movement was perfect. This was classic(not Classic)
>Chun Li action. 'Just as you think you got past that standing forward,
>standing fierce, suddenly a perfect SBK comes out which outpriotorizes
>you...' New SBK requires you to charge back, which simply has no
>disguise whatsoever.
I disagree. In my style of play at least (the Pink Flamingo), it's a simple
matter to 'hide' the charge for the SBK in a couple of blocked hits like
low forward + standing forward.
>Apart from the annoying bug which makes the SBK come
>out at silly times, the old flying SBK when done from the ground (the
>crossup maneuver I've mentioned) is either impossible or just pretty
>damned hard to do.
This is not a major loss IMHO =)
>For some idiotic reason, hurricanes
>outprioritize SBK. In other words, I don't understand you prefering the
>new SBK. You could go through projectiles easier before and with more
>style. You mentioned a SBK combo which you could do now and couldn't do
>before once. Once combo replacing a once vital part of Chun's defence
>system doesn't cut it.
Eh? I never mentioned a SBK combo....I didn't know there were any.
So the SBK isn't as useful; find some other moves to compensate and move
on.
>
>: For all that, I'll take a minor range cut and lower priority on the
>: low RH (standing forward fills this hole in nicely anyway).
>Standing forward is noticeably shorter range. You appear to have lost
>your soul to the Super Turbo Chun. Start jabbing and waggling at the
>start button (re using the nearly Super Chun code) and become a born-again
>Chun Li player rather than a 99hit Supercombo ignore priority and skill
>devil worshipper. Tambourines, confessionals, I see the Cult of Super
>Chun becoming a world religion before S(S?)F3 comes out.
Oh please. I'm sure you know about the 'Pink Flamingo' play style.
This is a style COMPLETELY based on range down to the pixel. It's a
style with lots of fakes, feints, and very few FBs. Essentially, it's
just about the worst way to charge your Super meter. To suggest that
I've been 'seduced' by big combos, bells, and whistles is ridiculous.
I like ST Chun because she _also_ has the capability of playing the turtle.
This doesn't mean that ST Chun becomes some sort of mindless zombie (unless
the person playing her is the mindless one)
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
Thomas Calvin Cannon
Whoops,
I addressed a follow-up on this thread to Scott, when Mike Hall actually
posted to the thread. My apologies to Mike. =)
Scott D Bradburn
|> Thomas Calvin Cannon (ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
|> : 2) FB + SC: Not devestating, but this trick allows Chun to nearly COMPLETELY
|> : control the match's spacing once her Super is charged. You literally
|> : _cannot_ flip forward over an FB, or you will be SCed.
|> Agreed - but for some of the faster jumping characters they will be able
|> to hit your first.... (Blanka and Vega comes into mind..)
This will typically get them crushed. To do this on Chun, unless your opponent
is a real idiot, you have to kick early. Too early to combo. And if you follow
up the jump attack with anything (jump kick, crouch attack, like most people
do), you eat the SC, which is stored despite the fact that you hit the fireball.
Scott D Bradburn
|> In article <1994Nov6.1...@bradford.ac.uk>,
|> m.a.hall <M.A....@bradford.ac.uk> wrote:
|>
|> >: 2) FB + SC: Not devestating, but this trick allows Chun to nearly COMPLETELY
|> >: control the match's spacing once her Super is charged. You literally
|> >: _cannot_ flip forward over an FB, or you will be SCed.
|> >This is the Devil's corruption I mentioned. I don't like this at all even
|> >though it works. It's not Chun Li. It's Ken wearing drag. If you can
[deletion]
|> Oh please,
|> With all due respect Scott (as a fellow die-hard Chun), Chun deserves a break.
|> I agree completely with you that a good Chun demands precision, discipline,
|> and skill, but I think that you're seriously over-estimating the usefulness of
|> the above trick.
This sounds like you're accusing me of writing about Devil's corruption
stuff. I didn't, which seemed to be clearly indicated by your header. Rather,
Mike Hall posted it. While I am a fellow die-hard Chun, I like the SC. By
integrating the stored SC with precision Chun play it makes her a real contender.
If they turn Chun into Ken, then I might whine about Chun purity. But not until
then.
|> Consider that Chun's kikoken doesn't travel the length of the screen. All
|> you really have to do to avoid getting SCed is jump back repeatedly.
|> Also consider than, in order to pull of this trick, Chun can't charge for
|> another kikoken.
Of course, that avoids the SC, but it sets them up for death by air priority.
I love making my opponent squirm with a good stored SC.
|> The FB + SC trick is basically a defensive wrinkle. It makes people think
|> twice about attacking when the Super meter is charged, and punishes over-
|> aggression. Because of its defensive nature, it really doesn't have the
|> 'come-back' power that Balrog's SC has -- if you'r opponent's ahead they
|> can just walk away from the kikoken.
Where you walk up to them and throw them. Then the next time, you walk up to
them and let the SC fly. Of course, I never said the SC was bad. And I
don't think it's quite as easy to avoid the SC or one of the painful alternatives
as you're saying.
|> >: 3) New motion for SBK: Allows Chun to play her customary standing, poking
|> >: game and still have access to the SBK. The SBK can be used to approach
|> >: and phase through FBs if you're feeling lucky. Gives Chun a whisper of
|> >: a chance against Sagat (where she had zero chance in Super).
|> >Sagat's just joined Bison and Balrog in my 'completely disagree with
|> >certain netters about' replacing T.Hawk.
|> Huh? What does this mean?
I couldn't figure it out either.
|> I disagree. In my style of play at least (the Pink Flamingo), it's a simple
|> matter to 'hide' the charge for the SBK in a couple of blocked hits like
|> low forward + standing forward.
I've stopped using the SBK myself. I find my other options to be much better.
Especially since it won't hit on the way up now.
|> >Apart from the annoying bug which makes the SBK come
|> >out at silly times, the old flying SBK when done from the ground (the
|> >crossup maneuver I've mentioned) is either impossible or just pretty
|> >damned hard to do.
|> This is not a major loss IMHO =)
Definitely not.
|> Eh? I never mentioned a SBK combo....I didn't know there were any.
|> So the SBK isn't as useful; find some other moves to compensate and move
|> on.
I tried a F/SBK combo in Super but it didn't work. The hit as the SBK starts
is too slow.
|> >Standing forward is noticeably shorter range. You appear to have lost
|> >your soul to the Super Turbo Chun. Start jabbing and waggling at the
|> >start button (re using the nearly Super Chun code) and become a born-again
|> >Chun Li player rather than a 99hit Supercombo ignore priority and skill
|> >devil worshipper. Tambourines, confessionals, I see the Cult of Super
|> >Chun becoming a world religion before S(S?)F3 comes out.
|> Oh please. I'm sure you know about the 'Pink Flamingo' play style.
|> This is a style COMPLETELY based on range down to the pixel. It's a
|> style with lots of fakes, feints, and very few FBs. Essentially, it's
|> just about the worst way to charge your Super meter. To suggest that
|> I've been 'seduced' by big combos, bells, and whistles is ridiculous.
|> I like ST Chun because she _also_ has the capability of playing the turtle.
|> This doesn't mean that ST Chun becomes some sort of mindless zombie (unless
|> the person playing her is the mindless one)
I'm actually starting to see the light on the flamingo stuff. It clearly
stuffs fireballs much better than the crouching forward these days. And I
find it fun to switch from attack Chun to SC Chun in the middle of matches.
That really puts the opponents off.
m.a.hall
: >
: > Gimme a break, you can't compare SF1 to SF2. SF1 Sagat can't do a TU or
Quite true re 3 hit DP instakill combo. Birdie took a lot of those:)
Anyway, the reason why those SF1 boys would suck is cos they can't
fireball, dragon punch. You are stuck in fireball position for ages.
Vega could probably jab you 10 times while you are still screaming out
'BREATHE FIRE' in the hypothetical matchup. Sagat's legs came out pretty
quickly, and he blocked perfect on 'special' moves which is why he
is even mentioned.
My, this is a silly subthread...
MIke Hall
Thomas Calvin Cannon
Scott D Bradburn <sc...@athena.mit.edu> wrote:
>In article <39k840$k...@nntp.Stanford.EDU>, ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU (Thomas Calvin Cannon) writes:
>|> In article <1994Nov6.1...@bradford.ac.uk>,
>|> m.a.hall <M.A....@bradford.ac.uk> wrote:
>|>
>|> >: 2) FB + SC: Not devestating, but this trick allows Chun to nearly COMPLETELY
>|> >: control the match's spacing once her Super is charged. You literally
>|> >: _cannot_ flip forward over an FB, or you will be SCed.
>
>|> >This is the Devil's corruption I mentioned. I don't like this at all even
>|> >though it works. It's not Chun Li. It's Ken wearing drag. If you can
>
>[deletion]
>
>|> Oh please,
>
>|>I agree completely with you that a good Chun demands precision, discipline,
>
>This sounds like you're accusing me of writing about Devil's corruption
>stuff. I didn't, which seemed to be clearly indicated by your header. Rather,
>Mike Hall posted it. While I am a fellow die-hard Chun, I like the SC. By
>If they turn Chun into Ken, then I might whine about Chun purity. But not until
>then.
>
Yep. Hope you read my apology post. Wrote that reply in a hurry. I
agree with you 100% on the SC. =) =) =)
[big old snip]
>|> Oh please. I'm sure you know about the 'Pink Flamingo' play style.
>|> This is a style COMPLETELY based on range down to the pixel. It's a
>|> style with lots of fakes, feints, and very few FBs. Essentially, it's
>|> just about the worst way to charge your Super meter. To suggest that
>|> I've been 'seduced' by big combos, bells, and whistles is ridiculous.
>|> I like ST Chun because she _also_ has the capability of playing the turtle.
>|> This doesn't mean that ST Chun becomes some sort of mindless zombie (unless
>|> the person playing her is the mindless one)
>
>I'm actually starting to see the light on the flamingo stuff. It clearly
>stuffs fireballs much better than the crouching forward these days. And I
>find it fun to switch from attack Chun to SC Chun in the middle of matches.
>That really puts the opponents off.
Yep. That's the beauty of the new Chun. Pound away on 'em for a while,
then squat down into super-turtle mode.
BTW, try mixing in some standing RHs with those standing forwards. Knocks
Ryu cleanly out of a jump or HK attempt, and looks cool to boot.
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
m.a.hall
: m.a.hall <M.A....@bradford.ac.uk> wrote:
: [snip]
(readded) : >Thomas Calvin Cannon (ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
heh you're actually flaming your own note here. :)
: >: 2) FB + SC: Not devestating, but this trick allows Chun to nearly COMPLETELY
: >: control the match's spacing once her Super is charged. You literally
: >: _cannot_ flip forward over an FB, or you will be SCed.
: >This is the Devil's corruption I mentioned. I don't like this at all even
: >though it works. It's not Chun Li. It's Ken wearing drag. If you can
: >still remember playing and winning with Classic Chun, you'll realise the
: >corruption of the character here. I'm not just being smiley-humourous.
: >Classic Chun players won a hell of a lot, because they knew they had to
: >be pixel accurate vs everyone. Discipline and skill are the facets of the
: >Chun Li player, rather than humongous damage combos which take no talent at
: >all to do.
: Oh please,
: With all due respect Scott (as a fellow die-hard Chun), Chun deserves a break.
Scott didn't write that. YOU DID!:)
: I agree completely with you that a good Chun demands precision, discipline,
: and skill, but I think that you're seriously over-estimating the usefulness of
: the above trick.
: Consider that Chun's kikoken doesn't travel the length of the screen. All
: you really have to do to avoid getting SCed is jump back repeatedly.
: Also consider than, in order to pull of this trick, Chun can't charge for
: another kikoken.
: The FB + SC trick is basically a defensive wrinkle. It makes people think
: twice about attacking when the Super meter is charged, and punishes over-
: aggression. Because of its defensive nature, it really doesn't have the
: 'come-back' power that Balrog's SC has -- if you'r opponent's ahead they
: can just walk away from the kikoken.
*grin* Just say, the Devil made you do it and admit that you need an
exorcism. Nuff taunting
: >
: >: 3) New motion for SBK: Allows Chun to play her customary standing, poking
: >: game and still have access to the SBK. The SBK can be used to approach
: >: and phase through FBs if you're feeling lucky. Gives Chun a whisper of
: >: a chance against Sagat (where she had zero chance in Super).
: >Sagat's just joined Bison and Balrog in my 'completely disagree with
: >certain netters about' replacing T.Hawk.
: Huh? What does this mean?
Means that discussions with these characters end up in ridiculous flame wars
with lies about priorities and reaction speeds appearing. Not worth my life
discussing em.
: >Apart from the annoying bug which makes the SBK come
: >out at silly times, the old flying SBK when done from the ground (the
: >crossup maneuver I've mentioned) is either impossible or just pretty
: >damned hard to do.
: This is not a major loss IMHO =)
Fly behind a charging Balrog very easily using this. Fly behind a missed
Bison headstomp and get uncrossed up so you can punish him easier. It's
pretty hard to counter if you do it from just standing position too.
: >For some idiotic reason, hurricanes
: >outprioritize SBK. In other words, I don't understand you prefering the
: >new SBK. You could go through projectiles easier before and with more
: >style. You mentioned a SBK combo which you could do now and couldn't do
: >before once. Once combo replacing a once vital part of Chun's defence
: >system doesn't cut it.
: Eh? I never mentioned a SBK combo....I didn't know there were any.
: So the SBK isn't as useful; find some other moves to compensate and move
: on.
Yeah, this was a bit of time ago so I'll remind -
Mike Hall whines - The new SBK is so horrid! I can't do the Supercombo etc.
Haylp! (think penelope pitstop for the rest of it)
Thomas Calvin replies - You are missing the big picture. You can now do
this SBK combo which didn't work before. (Something ending on forward,
SBK I think).
I probably showed little class there bringing up something from at least six
months ago...
: >: For all that, I'll take a minor range cut and lower priority on the
: >: low RH (standing forward fills this hole in nicely anyway).
: >Standing forward is noticeably shorter range. You appear to have lost
: >your soul to the Super Turbo Chun. Start jabbing and waggling at the
: >start button (re using the nearly Super Chun code) and become a born-again
: >Chun Li player rather than a 99hit Supercombo ignore priority and skill
: >devil worshipper.
: Oh please. I'm sure you know about the 'Pink Flamingo' play style.
: This is a style COMPLETELY based on range down to the pixel. It's a
: style with lots of fakes, feints, and very few FBs. Essentially, it's
: just about the worst way to charge your Super meter. To suggest that
: I've been 'seduced' by big combos, bells, and whistles is ridiculous.
: I like ST Chun because she _also_ has the capability of playing the turtle.
[A tiny bit snipped]
So basically you prefer ST Chun because of the triple kick? You mention
that Pink Flamingo relies on range after claiming you don't care about the
emasculated (that is a dreadful word considering it's Chun...) leg length.
Triple kick seems to be about the last argument. TK is a powerful weapon,
but it's a dragon punch pure and simple. Chun _never_ needed one of those
with the old SBK. Another reason why the new one sucks is that if you are
crossed up, you get hammered. Old SBK never had this problem. Escaping
from diving, charging, jumping meatyboys was no problem with timing.
I'll refrain from calling you a Devil (Akuma?) worshipper as you appear
to have repented from your previous stance about the Fball-SC bs. But try
playing the Super version again. I guarrantee (unless you _need_ the
quicker kikkokens) your play will improve even further as you begin to
study the pixels closer.
Mike Hall
Thomas Calvin Cannon
[snip]
>: The FB + SC trick is basically a defensive wrinkle. It makes people think
>: twice about attacking when the Super meter is charged, and punishes over-
>: aggression. Because of its defensive nature, it really doesn't have the
>: 'come-back' power that Balrog's SC has -- if you'r opponent's ahead they
>: can just walk away from the kikoken.
>*grin* Just say, the Devil made you do it and admit that you need an
>exorcism. Nuff taunting
Only if you feel like getting pounded by most of the SSF2T field because you're
still using Classic tactics.
[snip]
>: >Apart from the annoying bug which makes the SBK come
>: >out at silly times, the old flying SBK when done from the ground (the
>: >crossup maneuver I've mentioned) is either impossible or just pretty
>: >damned hard to do.
>
>: This is not a major loss IMHO =)
>
>Fly behind a charging Balrog very easily using this. Fly behind a missed
>Bison headstomp and get uncrossed up so you can punish him easier. It's
>pretty hard to counter if you do it from just standing position too.
Like I said...no major loss. You try doing an aerial SBK over a close
Balrog rushing punch on Turbo. Doing the neckbreaker will either
hit cleanly or trade in Chun's favor.
[snip]
>: Eh? I never mentioned a SBK combo....I didn't know there were any.
>: So the SBK isn't as useful; find some other moves to compensate and move
>: on.
>
>Yeah, this was a bit of time ago so I'll remind -
>
>Mike Hall whines - The new SBK is so horrid! I can't do the Supercombo etc.
>Haylp! (think penelope pitstop for the rest of it)
>
>Thomas Calvin replies - You are missing the big picture. You can now do
>this SBK combo which didn't work before. (Something ending on forward,
>SBK I think).
You must have _really_ misunderstood me. The SBK has NEVER EVER EVER EVER
been able to combo because of the enormous delay before the first hit.
What I _might_ have said is that you can now do an SBK in situations where
you previously couldn't (like after a poking standing forward).
[snip]
>So basically you prefer ST Chun because of the triple kick?
No. I never even brought the TK up....where are you getting this?????
I mentioned FB + SC, RH neckbreaker, and new motion for SBK. Not once
did I bring up the triple kick.
>You mention
>that Pink Flamingo relies on range after claiming you don't care about the
>emasculated (that is a dreadful word considering it's Chun...) leg length.
The reduced range just makes the flamingo-game a little trickier. Chun
still has enough range to pull it off though. Therefore, I've concluded that
a modest drop in range is a _tiny_ price to pay for adding a new, defensive
dimension to Chun Li's arsenal.
>Triple kick seems to be about the last argument. TK is a powerful weapon,
>but it's a dragon punch pure and simple. Chun _never_ needed one of those
>with the old SBK. Another reason why the new one sucks is that if you are
>crossed up, you get hammered. Old SBK never had this problem. Escaping
>from diving, charging, jumping meatyboys was no problem with timing.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Once again, I never mentioned the TK, but your bringing it up shows your
ignorance of the game. First of all, the TK has a flash-kick motion, so
you can't get crossed up (unless your timing is bad). Do it late and Chun
will turn around and smack the neck-kicking bastard in the ass.
Also, NOTHING will get you out of a well-timed (meaty) attack as you
seem to indicate. Either you just don't know this, or you're flying
fast and loose with your language. Either alternative seriously hampers
your credibility on this issue.
>
>I'll refrain from calling you a Devil (Akuma?) worshipper as you appear
>to have repented from your previous stance about the Fball-SC bs. But try
>playing the Super version again. I guarrantee (unless you _need_ the
>quicker kikkokens) your play will improve even further as you begin to
>study the pixels closer.
Oh BS. First of all, this FB + SC stance is a fiction of your imagination.
I said it was a nice touch, which you misinterpreted as praise beyond praise.
Second of all, your insistance that one cannot play a precise range-game and
also have a FB is IMHO a rather narrow mindset which is probably limiting
your play.
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
Su, Kai-Chang J.
Now here is an interesting question. If one could take the best incarnation
of every character in every version of SF2, and put them in one game. Who
would come out the best?
I think that Classic Guile would be the best with his power and magical
tricks.
What do you think?
Justin Ratcliff
Organization: PE-Nelson
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.91.6
In article <8NOV1994...@rosie.uh.edu>, st...@rosie.uh.edu (Su,
Magic tricks huh?
It's gotta be Super Zangief. Fireball.......<thunk>....
AHHHHHHHHHHH WHAM!
Its just such a cool bug :)
RATT
Thomas Calvin Cannon
This is not even close. Put the magic throw on any character, and that
character automatically becomes 'the best.' Well, maybe not Cammy. =)
Consider that, with the magic throw, getting within about 2 inches of
the magic-thrower can mean instant and unavoidable death.
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
Su, Kai-Chang J.
But what about Super Zangief? He had a magic throw like Guile. But
he would no way be the best. Super SF2 proves that. Zangief with his
magic throw in not the best in Super SF2.
>---
>Tom Cannon
>ink...@leland.stanford.edu
>
>
Thomas Calvin Cannon
m.a.hall <M.A....@bradford.ac.uk> wrote:
[ a *LOT* of preface BS on both parts deleted]
>You noted it as a major reason why ST was better which I interpreted as
>praise. Pardon my ignorance on that please. I like the Kikkoken, just
>hate the TK for what it stands for. Never insisted anything of the sort.
>Obviously, you dislike taking advice and testing things out which 'you know
>don't work'. Yes, if Capcom brought out a character called Ken Li which
>gave a nigh on invulnerable DP to Chun, allowing her to play pseudo-Ken
>tactic then I'd be limiting my play on that character by not using those
>skills. On second thoughts, they already have. They call it Super Turbo
>Chun Li...
I don't know if you realize this, but you've just admitted that your
reilgious preference for Super Chun is limiting your play. Go back and read
the last two sentences of that paragraph again.
>
>To steal (badly) from Tolkien - 'You have chosen the Evening, while my heart
>is given to the Morning.' You obviously prefer playing drag Ken rather than
>authentic Chun Li. Using tricks (flip kicks,Tks) rather than priority isn't
>the spirit fostered in Classic,Championship and Super. The multihit bs is
>Ken all the way. Apart from anything else, Super Chun is stronger vs the
>most used characters (Super Ken and Ryu excluded) despite the lack of 2
>million hit Supercombos.
There you go spouting tricks over priority again. This isn't a diachotomy,
Mike. ST Chun still must play with skill, accuracy, and poise to win.
She just also has the added bonus of being able to sit back and let the
enemy come to her for a change. This, IMHO, makes ST Chun a more dynamic
character than her Super counterpart.
Also, what's this 'Super Ken and Ryu excluded' stuff? Last I checked,
Ryu was the most popular character (at least in all the locations I've
played in).
>
>Rather than just idly wiping my words and claiming Hitler's damned ghost or
>someone wrote what you said, maybe for once you could actually test out a
>belief which goes opposite to yours. Often the belief is actually
>knowledge, as is the case here.
I've already 'tested' Super Chun out extensively. I tested her out for
the months that Super was out! We obviously disagree here. The difference
is that I've played both versions extensively, and have picked ST Chun
to be superior. You, on the other hand, have branded ST Chun (with a
scarlet 'K' for Ken if you perfer) on some style point. Your language
through these posts suggests this. All this talk about 'corruption'
'exorcism' 'evening' and 'morning.' If there's anyone who's caught
up in blindness to others' belief's it's you. I just want to play the
best version of Chun so the Ryu/Balrog/Bison sitting next to me doesn't
paste my ass.
It's very simple. ST Chun can do almost _everything_ that Super Chun
could do. The only exception is the ground-based aerial SBK. In
exchange for that, Chun gets mobility if the form of the RH neck-breaker
and new motion for the SBK, and a huge defensive threat with the addition
of the FB + SC. The TK simply replaces the DP aspect of the old SBK, and
can therefore be disregarded as eye-candy.
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
Thomas Calvin Cannon
Su, Kai-Chang J. <st...@rosie.uh.edu> wrote:
>In article <39q44o$d...@nntp.Stanford.EDU>, ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU (Thomas Calvin Cannon) writes...
>>In article <8NOV1994...@rosie.uh.edu>,
>>Su, Kai-Chang J. <st...@rosie.uh.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>Now here is an interesting question. If one could take the best incarnation
>>>of every character in every version of SF2, and put them in one game. Who
>>>would come out the best?
>>>
>>>I think that Classic Guile would be the best with his power and magical
>>>tricks.
>>>
>>
>>This is not even close. Put the magic throw on any character, and that
>>character automatically becomes 'the best.' Well, maybe not Cammy. =)
>>
>>Consider that, with the magic throw, getting within about 2 inches of
>>the magic-thrower can mean instant and unavoidable death.
>
>But what about Super Zangief? He had a magic throw like Guile. But
>he would no way be the best. Super SF2 proves that. Zangief with his
>magic throw in not the best in Super SF2.
>
Small confusion. 'THE' magic throw is Guile's MT from classic. Zangief's
magic throw is weak and silly in comparison.
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
m.a.hall
: m.a.hall <M.A....@bradford.ac.uk> wrote:
: >Thomas Calvin Cannon (ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
: [snip]
[stuff about fireball and SC deleted]
: >*grin* Just say, the Devil made you do it and admit that you need an
: >exorcism. Nuff taunting
: Only if you feel like getting pounded by most of the SSF2T field because you're
: still using Classic tactics.
It's a bad week of quoting out of context for you:) In that vicious [snip]
you did, you claimed Scott had written what you had written and started
flaming yourself about it... That was what my last line was about.
Anyway, the basis of classic tactics are still sound with the Super Chun -
She outprioritises everyone in some respect and the LK still hurts.
The kikkoken is slow enough to tack on nicely to the 'spirit of Chun' as I
see it. It forces the opponent to 'do something' which allows you to
outprioritise something else.
[SBK bug stuff deleted]
: >Fly behind a charging Balrog very easily using this. Fly behind a missed
: >Bison headstomp and get uncrossed up so you can punish him easier. It's
: >pretty hard to counter if you do it from just standing position too.
: Like I said...no major loss. You try doing an aerial SBK over a close
: Balrog rushing punch on Turbo. Doing the neckbreaker will either
: hit cleanly or trade in Chun's favor.
Easy with Super Chun. Next to impossible with Turbo Chun. Surprisingly, I
prefer Super Chun vs Balrog:)
: [snip]
: >: Eh? I never mentioned a SBK combo....I didn't know there were any.
: >: So the SBK isn't as useful; find some other moves to compensate and move
: >: on.
: >
: >Yeah, this was a bit of time ago so I'll remind -
: >
: >Mike Hall whines - The new SBK is so horrid! I can't do the Supercombo etc.
: >Haylp! (think penelope pitstop for the rest of it)
: >
: >Thomas Calvin replies - You are missing the big picture. You can now do
: >this SBK combo which didn't work before. (Something ending on forward,
: >SBK I think).
: You must have _really_ misunderstood me. The SBK has NEVER EVER EVER EVER
: been able to combo because of the enormous delay before the first hit.
: What I _might_ have said is that you can now do an SBK in situations where
: you previously couldn't (like after a poking standing forward).
Nah, the words, combo which didn't work before, 'You are missing the big
picture', SBK and Thomas calvin are all correct. You've also managed to
wipe out my line where I admitted bringing up something you said in
February(?) showed little class on my part.
[a little TK stuff deleted cos you didn't actually mention it once]
: >You mention
: >that Pink Flamingo relies on range after claiming you don't care about the
: >emasculated (that is a dreadful word considering it's Chun...) leg length.
: The reduced range just makes the flamingo-game a little trickier. Chun
: still has enough range to pull it off though. Therefore, I've concluded that
: a modest drop in range is a _tiny_ price to pay for adding a new, defensive
: dimension to Chun Li's arsenal.
Hmmm... I suspect you never actually were able to do the super SBK
consistently from the ground. Just is a case of a swift wiggle. A lot
more effective than the circular kicks because you get in a superb
position and the opponent isn't. Balrog vs Chun example you had above
works fine admittedly, but aerial SBK works better and will hit clean/miss
and give a superior position. If your game doesn't include charging down vs
Balrog at almost all times then obviously this method won't work for you.
Cos of the lesser range of Chun's legs, you can't do this anymore with the
ST character.
[TK stuff vs meatboys deleted, to save me eating my earlier words on this
paragraph which were mainly wrong.]
[Nother bit claiming that playing Super Chun might improve your game
allround deleted.]
: Oh BS. First of all, this FB + SC stance is a fiction of your imagination.
: I said it was a nice touch, which you misinterpreted as praise beyond praise.
: Second of all, your insistance that one cannot play a precise range-game and
: also have a FB is IMHO a rather narrow mindset which is probably limiting
: your play.
You noted it as a major reason why ST was better which I interpreted as
praise. Pardon my ignorance on that please. I like the Kikkoken, just
hate the TK for what it stands for. Never insisted anything of the sort.
Obviously, you dislike taking advice and testing things out which 'you know
don't work'. Yes, if Capcom brought out a character called Ken Li which
gave a nigh on invulnerable DP to Chun, allowing her to play pseudo-Ken
tactic then I'd be limiting my play on that character by not using those
skills. On second thoughts, they already have. They call it Super Turbo
Chun Li...
To steal (badly) from Tolkien - 'You have chosen the Evening, while my heart
is given to the Morning.' You obviously prefer playing drag Ken rather than
authentic Chun Li. Using tricks (flip kicks,Tks) rather than priority isn't
the spirit fostered in Classic,Championship and Super. The multihit bs is
Ken all the way. Apart from anything else, Super Chun is stronger vs the
most used characters (Super Ken and Ryu excluded) despite the lack of 2
million hit Supercombos.
Rather than just idly wiping my words and claiming Hitler's damned ghost or
someone wrote what you said, maybe for once you could actually test out a
belief which goes opposite to yours. Often the belief is actually
knowledge, as is the case here.
Mike Hall (Mr Gottomuchsparetimeonhishands)
Scott D Bradburn
|> Hmmm... I suspect you never actually were able to do the super SBK
|> consistently from the ground. Just is a case of a swift wiggle. A lot
|> more effective than the circular kicks because you get in a superb
|> position and the opponent isn't. Balrog vs Chun example you had above
|> works fine admittedly, but aerial SBK works better and will hit clean/miss
|> and give a superior position. If your game doesn't include charging down vs
|> Balrog at almost all times then obviously this method won't work for you.
|> Cos of the lesser range of Chun's legs, you can't do this anymore with the
|> ST character.
All aerial SBK's are just abysmal. All you do is crouch and throw the
idiot who did it when they land. And half the time crouching isn't even
necessary. It's somehow less useful than Ken/Ryu's aerial SBK which actually
hits from time to time.
|> To steal (badly) from Tolkien - 'You have chosen the Evening, while my heart
|> is given to the Morning.' You obviously prefer playing drag Ken rather than
|> authentic Chun Li. Using tricks (flip kicks,Tks) rather than priority isn't
|> the spirit fostered in Classic,Championship and Super.
Err... Chun has always relied half on tricks and half on priority. That's why
CE Chun sucked so horribly. She didn't have either. HF Chun added a few new
tricks that made her a bit better. Super Chun got almost all of Classic Chun
priority back and thus actually worked when played like Classic Chun. I felt
really nostalgic when they brought this version out. It changed Chun back
to a semi-effective Classic style from a useless high-risk HF style, plus it
kept the handy flip kick tricks. For SSF2T they expanded upon the Classic
Chun style and added a bunch of new flipping knee tricks. Plus they added in
a very good storable SC, which gives her a whopper of a new trick.
The multihit bs is
|> Ken all the way. Apart from anything else, Super Chun is stronger vs the
|> most used characters (Super Ken and Ryu excluded) despite the lack of 2
|> million hit Supercombos.
Multi-hit is Ken? Hmmm... I don't think multi-hit is particularly distinct
to any one character at any time. She's got several old 3-hit combos, and a
multi-hit SC which is an aspect of any character in ST. That really has nothing
to do with Ken, nor does it violate Chun style. ST Chun can not be played like
Ken Li. She's merely a New Improved Chun. All the flavor and style of the
original Chun with the necessary improvements to stay competitive with her
opponents.
|> Rather than just idly wiping my words and claiming Hitler's damned ghost or
|> someone wrote what you said, maybe for once you could actually test out a
|> belief which goes opposite to yours. Often the belief is actually
|> knowledge, as is the case here.
What sort of rigorous testing do you propose to prove that ST Chun is the
spawn of Satan? What sort of rigorous testing do you propose to demonstrate
that ST Chun is actually Ken in drag? I don't think any of your premises
(except whether the aerial SBK is useful or not, which it isn't) are subject
to rigorous testing.
m.a.hall
: m.a.hall <M.A....@bradford.ac.uk> wrote:
: >
: >To steal (badly) from Tolkien - 'You have chosen the Evening, while my heart
: >is given to the Morning.' You obviously prefer playing drag Ken rather than
: >authentic Chun Li. Using tricks (flip kicks,Tks) rather than priority isn't
: >the spirit fostered in Classic,Championship and Super. The multihit bs is
: >Ken all the way. Apart from anything else, Super Chun is stronger vs the
: >most used characters (Super Ken and Ryu excluded) despite the lack of 2
: >million hit Supercombos.
: There you go spouting tricks over priority again. This isn't a diachotomy,
: Mike. ST Chun still must play with skill, accuracy, and poise to win.
: She just also has the added bonus of being able to sit back and let the
: enemy come to her for a change. This, IMHO, makes ST Chun a more dynamic
: character than her Super counterpart.
: Also, what's this 'Super Ken and Ryu excluded' stuff? Last I checked,
: Ryu was the most popular character (at least in all the locations I've
: played in).
Reread what I said... I mentioned that only those two had a better chance
vs Super Chun than ST Chun of the most popular characters.
: >
: >Rather than just idly wiping my words and claiming Hitler's damned ghost or
: >someone wrote what you said, maybe for once you could actually test out a
: >belief which goes opposite to yours. Often the belief is actually
: >knowledge, as is the case here.
: I've already 'tested' Super Chun out extensively. I tested her out for
: the months that Super was out! We obviously disagree here. The difference
Yeah, but not since you got seduced by ST Chun I'd wager, to any real extent.
: is that I've played both versions extensively, and have picked ST Chun
: to be superior. You, on the other hand, have branded ST Chun (with a
: scarlet 'K' for Ken if you perfer) on some style point. Your language
: through these posts suggests this. All this talk about 'corruption'
: 'exorcism' 'evening' and 'morning.' If there's anyone who's caught
: up in blindness to others' belief's it's you. I just want to play the
: best version of Chun so the Ryu/Balrog/Bison sitting next to me doesn't
: paste my ass.
I find only Super Ken and Super Ryu are harder, because the TK abomination
restricts them. Rest are priority-meat.
: It's very simple. ST Chun can do almost _everything_ that Super Chun
: could do. The only exception is the ground-based aerial SBK. In
: exchange for that, Chun gets mobility if the form of the RH neck-breaker
: and new motion for the SBK, and a huge defensive threat with the addition
``````````````````````
Didn't you just post that this was a minor part? Ack. Anyway, the two
things Super Chun loses are the old SBK movement, which allowed SBK on
landing with complete disguise and flash kick nocross-up movement.
ground-based aerial SBK, and enough priority on the kicks to allow the
Blankas and Bisons of the world to look up hopefully.
: of the FB + SC. The TK simply replaces the DP aspect of the old SBK, and
: can therefore be disregarded as eye-candy.
TK is eyecandy now... Heh.
Mike Hall
Su, Kai-Chang J.
I know about both and I can do both. Guile's Magic throw in classic is
very powerful. But Zangief's magic throw is more effective against
fireballers.
Thomas Calvin Cannon
m.a.hall <M.A....@bradford.ac.uk> wrote:
>Thomas Calvin Cannon (ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
>: In article <1994Nov9.1...@bradford.ac.uk>,
>: m.a.hall <M.A....@bradford.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>
>: >
>: >To steal (badly) from Tolkien - 'You have chosen the Evening, while my heart
>: >is given to the Morning.' You obviously prefer playing drag Ken rather than
>: >authentic Chun Li. Using tricks (flip kicks,Tks) rather than priority isn't
>: >the spirit fostered in Classic,Championship and Super. The multihit bs is
>: >Ken all the way. Apart from anything else, Super Chun is stronger vs the
>: >most used characters (Super Ken and Ryu excluded) despite the lack of 2
>: >million hit Supercombos.
>
>: There you go spouting tricks over priority again. This isn't a diachotomy,
>: Mike. ST Chun still must play with skill, accuracy, and poise to win.
>: She just also has the added bonus of being able to sit back and let the
>: enemy come to her for a change. This, IMHO, makes ST Chun a more dynamic
>: character than her Super counterpart.
>
>: Also, what's this 'Super Ken and Ryu excluded' stuff? Last I checked,
>: Ryu was the most popular character (at least in all the locations I've
>: played in).
>
>Reread what I said... I mentioned that only those two had a better chance
>vs Super Chun than ST Chun of the most popular characters.
>
That's right. The second half of your sentence conrtradicts the first half.
'Super Chun is stronger vs most used characters...'
This implies that Super Chun might be the best choice, since you'll win
a bigger percentage of the matches
'...(Super Ken and Ryu excluded)'
But you've excluded probably _the_ most popular character. And Ryu is the
most popular by a significant margin. It's like saying 'Blacks are the
biggest ethnic group in America, except for all the white people.'
Better go back to frothing at the mouth. You were better at that.
>: >
>: >Rather than just idly wiping my words and claiming Hitler's damned ghost or
>: >someone wrote what you said, maybe for once you could actually test out a
>: >belief which goes opposite to yours. Often the belief is actually
>: >knowledge, as is the case here.
>
>: I've already 'tested' Super Chun out extensively. I tested her out for
>: the months that Super was out! We obviously disagree here. The difference
>
>Yeah, but not since you got seduced by ST Chun I'd wager, to any real extent.
>
No kidding. Here's what happened.
1) Super Chun got her but kicked by Ryu, Ken, Guile, Bison, et. al. all the
way through Super.
2) ST Chun gets a defensive game and starts winning.
Ta da, what do you know. I stuck with the winner. So, with all your
huffing and incantations, how much have you played Turbo Chun? Was it
a whole game before you threw her out in disgust? A week maybe?
[snip]
>I find only Super Ken and Super Ryu are harder, because the TK abomination
>restricts them. Rest are priority-meat.
>
>: It's very simple. ST Chun can do almost _everything_ that Super Chun
>: could do. The only exception is the ground-based aerial SBK. In
>: exchange for that, Chun gets mobility if the form of the RH neck-breaker
>: and new motion for the SBK, and a huge defensive threat with the addition
> ``````````````````````
>
>Didn't you just post that this was a minor part?
Yep. Correct that to huge _comparatively_. Any threat compared to no
threat is huge. =)
>Ack. Anyway, the two
>things Super Chun loses are the old SBK movement, which allowed SBK on
>landing with complete disguise and flash kick nocross-up movement.
>ground-based aerial SBK, and enough priority on the kicks to allow the
>Blankas and Bisons of the world to look up hopefully.
I've addressed these before.
Disguise of SBK: I'm not sure what the heck you mean by this, but
charging down is a subset of charging back. What I mean
is that you can charge a SB from both def crouch and
back, but can only charge a FK from down. So, I really
can't see why you're complaining that they changed the
SBK to a more general motion.
Cross up on jump in: Sheesh. Use the triple-kick and you won't get crossed
up.
So you're left with priority. Ooooo....I'm shaking.
>
>: of the FB + SC. The TK simply replaces the DP aspect of the old SBK, and
>: can therefore be disregarded as eye-candy.
>
>TK is eyecandy now... Heh.
If you'd USE it, you'd find that it fills the roll of the DP-like SBK
exactly. Even does about the same damage. So, like Ken's new knee-press,
it's just eye-candy; it fufills the same role of a previously existing
move.
Now that I think about it, I'll recant that. The TK actually is better
that a wake-up SBK, because the TK can be comboed. (Neck forward + low
strong + TK comes to mind).
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
Thomas Calvin Cannon
Su, Kai-Chang J. <st...@rosie.uh.edu> wrote:
>In article <39r8qh$k...@nntp.Stanford.EDU>, ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU (Thomas Calvin Cannon) writes...
[snip]
>>
>>Small confusion. 'THE' magic throw is Guile's MT from classic. Zangief's
>>magic throw is weak and silly in comparison.
>>
>>---
>>Tom Cannon
>>ink...@leland.stanford.edu
>
>I know about both and I can do both. Guile's Magic throw in classic is
>very powerful. But Zangief's magic throw is more effective against
>fireballers.
Yes, this is all true. However, the range of Guile's magic throw is
absolute. No matter where you are (jumping, attacking, defending, etc.)
if you're within 2 or so inches, you can be magic thrown.
Zan's MT doesn't have the same *OOMPTH* to it. For instance, it's
ineffective against jump-attacks. Also, it's a simple matter to make
sure that you're in the air when your FB hits Zangief.
Throw in the fact that Guile's MT is recursive (MT them, then MT them off
the ground until thy die), and I would say that Guile's MT is easily
the most powerful move, not only in SF2, but in any fighting game.
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
m.a.hall
: |> Hmmm... I suspect you never actually were able to do the super SBK
: |> consistently from the ground. Just is a case of a swift wiggle. A lot
: |> more effective than the circular kicks because you get in a superb
: |> position and the opponent isn't. Balrog vs Chun example you had above
: |> works fine admittedly, but aerial SBK works better and will hit clean/miss
: |> and give a superior position. If your game doesn't include charging down vs
: |> Balrog at almost all times then obviously this method won't work for you.
: |> Cos of the lesser range of Chun's legs, you can't do this anymore with the
: |> ST character.
: All aerial SBK's are just abysmal. All you do is crouch and throw the
: idiot who did it when they land. And half the time crouching isn't even
: necessary. It's somehow less useful than Ken/Ryu's aerial SBK which actually
: hits from time to time.
Aerial SBK done from outer space yeah(re tossed on landing) which is
partally why the Super Turbo rubbish sucks. Started from the ground? The
one which hits on the way down on a crossed up opponent?
: |> To steal (badly) from Tolkien - 'You have chosen the Evening, while my heart
: |> is given to the Morning.' You obviously prefer playing drag Ken rather than
: |> authentic Chun Li. Using tricks (flip kicks,Tks) rather than priority isn't
: |> the spirit fostered in Classic,Championship and Super.
: Err... Chun has always relied half on tricks and half on priority. That's why
: CE Chun sucked so horribly. She didn't have either. HF Chun added a few new
: tricks that made her a bit better. Super Chun got almost all of Classic Chun
: priority back and thus actually worked when played like Classic Chun. I felt
: really nostalgic when they brought this version out. It changed Chun back
: to a semi-effective Classic style from a useless high-risk HF style, plus it
: kept the handy flip kick tricks. For SSF2T they expanded upon the Classic
: Chun style and added a bunch of new flipping knee tricks. Plus they added in
: a very good storable SC, which gives her a whopper of a new trick.
using the unix ed. s/tricks/specialtricks
Tricks means doing things like like dping everything in orbit without
thinking.
I agree with most of what you say here, apart from CE Chun. _ Everyone_
got the shaft in CE. Guile got removed from deity status; Honda, Blanka,
Zangief, Dhaslim suddenly started to truly suck. Only Sagat of the new
bosses had a real chance of beating the weakened Chun, the rest were in
their poorest forms so far (Vega, the fastest scrub in the world here).
Only Ken/Ryu got off fairly lightly, Ken actually being improved. Considering
the opposition, Chun was strong here.
: The multihit bs is
: |> Ken all the way. Apart from anything else, Super Chun is stronger vs the
: |> most used characters (Super Ken and Ryu excluded) despite the lack of 2
: |> million hit Supercombos.
: Multi-hit is Ken? Hmmm... I don't think multi-hit is particularly distinct
: to any one character at any time. She's got several old 3-hit combos, and a
: multi-hit SC which is an aspect of any character in ST. That really has nothing
: to do with Ken, nor does it violate Chun style. ST Chun can not be played like
: Ken Li. She's merely a New Improved Chun. All the flavor and style of the
: original Chun with the necessary improvements to stay competitive with her
: opponents.
TOD, HF Ken, CE Ken's dp. I'm talking multi-hits which take little skill to
do. The other supercombos are simply extensions of the direction the
character is going in. Ryu's 5hit fireball being an example of this.
The Chun SC looks more like a Honda hundred-slap technique. It was actually
possible to do the current Chun SC on one of the CE hacked machines.
(The one with the very low SBK - tap roundhouse,fierce and left) Looked
bad then, too.
: What sort of rigorous testing do you propose to prove that ST Chun is the
: spawn of Satan? What sort of rigorous testing do you propose to demonstrate
: that ST Chun is actually Ken in drag? I don't think any of your premises
: (except whether the aerial SBK is useful or not, which it isn't) are subject
: to rigorous testing.
Priority - Super Chun has it, ST Chun hasn't. This reeks of brimstone bs.
Triple Kick - Hits almost anything out of the air without thinking. Take
care removing that wig Kenboy.
Silly 8 hits to add to anything - (Mind you don't rip that skirt Ken)
Aerial SBK, started from the ground - nastiness city
The very name itself (Super Streetfighter Two Turbo Edition Chun Li) is
something, I believe, no sensible mortal mind could think of - revealing
demonic possession of Capcom USA staff, who in turn gave birth to the Devil's
little girl.
Though my 'testing' comment was due to my belief that Tom Cannon was simply
reciting old scrub net commentary, rather than speaking with the backing of
facts (which he has denied laterly). I myself was seduced by the unholy
charms of ST Chun but testing of Super Chun for my magazine article* showed
me the classic Chun and reminded me of all the priority lost for a few
cheap tricks.
Mike Hall
Scott D Bradburn
|> Scott D Bradburn (sc...@athena.mit.edu) wrote:
|> : All aerial SBK's are just abysmal. All you do is crouch and throw the
|> : idiot who did it when they land. And half the time crouching isn't even
|> : necessary. It's somehow less useful than Ken/Ryu's aerial SBK which actually
|> : hits from time to time.
|> Aerial SBK done from outer space yeah(re tossed on landing) which is
|> partally why the Super Turbo rubbish sucks. Started from the ground? The
|> one which hits on the way down on a crossed up opponent?
It might hit on the way down of someone who was sleeping and didn't see it
start on the way up. In which case they either position themselves to slap her
as she lands or toss her as she lands. It gives her more hang time than her
normally abysmal hang time.
|> : Err... Chun has always relied half on tricks and half on priority. That's why
|> : CE Chun sucked so horribly. She didn't have either. HF Chun added a few new
|> : tricks that made her a bit better. Super Chun got almost all of Classic Chun
|> : priority back and thus actually worked when played like Classic Chun. I felt
|> : really nostalgic when they brought this version out. It changed Chun back
|> : to a semi-effective Classic style from a useless high-risk HF style, plus it
|> : kept the handy flip kick tricks. For SSF2T they expanded upon the Classic
|> : Chun style and added a bunch of new flipping knee tricks. Plus they added in
|> : a very good storable SC, which gives her a whopper of a new trick.
|> using the unix ed. s/tricks/specialtricks
|> Tricks means doing things like like dping everything in orbit without
|> thinking.
|> I agree with most of what you say here, apart from CE Chun. _ Everyone_
|> got the shaft in CE. Guile got removed from deity status; Honda, Blanka,
|> Zangief, Dhaslim suddenly started to truly suck. Only Sagat of the new
|> bosses had a real chance of beating the weakened Chun, the rest were in
|> their poorest forms so far (Vega, the fastest scrub in the world here).
You're wrong again. Blanka was damn near god. His only stronger version was
HF. The ball was faster, he took normal damage from being hit out of it,
and he had even more air priority.
Chun, however, was royally screwed. Her crouching forward was suddenly easy
to trade with. Her standing forward no longer worked as air defense against
anyone. Her jumping forward wasn't even as effective as it was in Classic.
And she didn't have a fast attack to stop body balls because at this point
her jabs didn't yet repeat rapidly. And the body ball was fast enough to
penetrate her standing short which used to stop him cold. All in all, chun
started losing to everyone but the really useless characters. But she could
still beat Vega, who didn't suck. In fact, Vega replaced Chun as the high-speed
precision character of choice.
Guile, while removed from Godhood was not a piece of cake. Honda did get screwed
since he didn't HURT like he used to. Dhalsim has always had problems with Chun.
And Zangief couldn't repeat SPD's so it made him fair, but no longer killed his
opponent in 1 mistake. Ken & Ryu went from being toast by Chun to totally
destroying her. Sagat began showing his Chun slaying form.
This is where I switched to playing Vega. And he by no means sucked, as I said
before. He had problems with Blanka and Chun, and those were his toughest
fights. Ken & Ryu were toast to his speed. His throw did near-SPD damage. The
range on his flying claw cut through most defenses. Properly spaced it could
claw Guile from outside his flash kick or jumping roundhouses. His standing
strong made very good air defense once you had the timing (the move is currently
his crouching fierce). Plus, he had the greatest tick in the history of Street
Fighter. His standing strong hit low (except Blanka), and could be repeated
fast enough to prevent the opponent from ever leaving block stun. Not only that,
but Vega could walk forward far enough in between them to counter the distance
he was pushed back when you blocked them. Thus, if he was ever ahead, you
could repeat it infinitely until the clock ran out. I did it to Kens and Ryus
and they'd be constantly throwing DP's while I did it, but it would never come
out until I stopped clawing. Then I'd throw 'em and start over. Vega was evil,
though possibly not the best.
|> Only Ken/Ryu got off fairly lightly, Ken actually being improved. Considering
|> the opposition, Chun was strong here.
Ken, Ryu, and Blanka, at the very least, were improved infinitely.
|> : Multi-hit is Ken? Hmmm... I don't think multi-hit is particularly distinct
|> : to any one character at any time. She's got several old 3-hit combos, and a
|> : multi-hit SC which is an aspect of any character in ST. That really has nothing
|> : to do with Ken, nor does it violate Chun style. ST Chun can not be played like
|> : Ken Li. She's merely a New Improved Chun. All the flavor and style of the
|> : original Chun with the necessary improvements to stay competitive with her
|> : opponents.
|> TOD, HF Ken, CE Ken's dp.
Well, CE Ryu's DP hit twice too, I believe. Only it didn't have the range to
work on many opponents.
|> I'm talking multi-hits which take little skill to
|> do.
Like combos? Chun's F/F/LK isn't any harder to do than Ken's TOD once you figure
out how to do it. And Chun's RH/FW/FW 3-hit isn't all that tough either.
Ken's was just more famous than Chun's since his killed, and he's a more popular
character. Or at least, he was.
|> The other supercombos are simply extensions of the direction the
|> character is going in. Ryu's 5hit fireball being an example of this.
|> The Chun SC looks more like a Honda hundred-slap technique.
No more so than her lightning kick looks like Honda's hundred hands. It's
an extension of her, since it involves kicking, which is her strong point.
In fact, you can even see that she walks forward to do it, rather than sliding
like Honda. She throws out a short, spins around while moving forward, throws
out another short, spins around and then does a stationary LK. Just a
concatenation of moves like she regularly does.
|> : What sort of rigorous testing do you propose to prove that ST Chun is the
|> : spawn of Satan? What sort of rigorous testing do you propose to demonstrate
|> : that ST Chun is actually Ken in drag? I don't think any of your premises
|> : (except whether the aerial SBK is useful or not, which it isn't) are subject
|> : to rigorous testing.
|> Priority - Super Chun has it, ST Chun hasn't. This reeks of brimstone bs.
ST Chun has it in spades. I win all over the place with her priority. If
Super Chun has more, I don't know what she'd do with it. I play a lot. I
jump in the air, my opponent jumps, we both kick, but I win. And I still have
that SC meter. She must have something resembling priority.
|> Triple Kick - Hits almost anything out of the air without thinking. Take
|> care removing that wig Kenboy.
The triple kick is a charge move, which makes it more Guile-like than Ken-like.
Plus it does require some skill, timing, and spacing to pull it off. It's not
exactly invulnerable.
|> Silly 8 hits to add to anything - (Mind you don't rip that skirt Ken)
It's a SC, just like any other characters. That is, all 16 of them, which provide
everyone a silly n hits to add to anything.
|> Aerial SBK, started from the ground - nastiness city
It's never been particularly useful. It's a gimmick. It might work a time or
two, but thereafter it will only get you dead. It's got less chance of working
than Balrog rushing in with a whiffing fierce punch and grabbing.
|> The very name itself (Super Streetfighter Two Turbo Edition Chun Li) is
|> something, I believe, no sensible mortal mind could think of - revealing
|> demonic possession of Capcom USA staff, who in turn gave birth to the Devil's
|> little girl.
How is that so much worse than "Super Streetfighter Two Edition Chun Li"?
|> Though my 'testing' comment was due to my belief that Tom Cannon was simply
|> reciting old scrub net commentary, rather than speaking with the backing of
|> facts (which he has denied laterly). I myself was seduced by the unholy
|> charms of ST Chun but testing of Super Chun for my magazine article* showed
|> me the classic Chun and reminded me of all the priority lost for a few
|> cheap tricks.
You're wrong about the priority, and you're clinging to a cheap trick (Aerial
SBK), while complaining about a good trick (SC). I think you're the one who's
been possessed. Out! Begone foul spawn of Hell!
m.a.hall
: |> Scott D Bradburn (sc...@athena.mit.edu) wrote:
: |> Aerial SBK done from outer space yeah(re tossed on landing) which is
: |> partally why the Super Turbo rubbish sucks. Started from the ground? The
: |> one which hits on the way down on a crossed up opponent?
: It might hit on the way down of someone who was sleeping and didn't see it
: start on the way up. In which case they either position themselves to slap her
: as she lands or toss her as she lands. It gives her more hang time than her
: normally abysmal hang time.
Less than .2 seconds and you're crossed up if too close as she goes up.
The ST Chun flying SBK takes ages, Super definitely not from the ground.
.1 seconds is about the fastest anyone can react too, which is how I estimated
the .2.
: |> using the unix ed. s/tricks/specialtricks
: |> Tricks means doing things like like dping everything in orbit without
: |> thinking.
: |> I agree with most of what you say here, apart from CE Chun. _ Everyone_
: |> got the shaft in CE. Guile got removed from deity status; Honda, Blanka,
: |> Zangief, Dhaslim suddenly started to truly suck. Only Sagat of the new
: |> bosses had a real chance of beating the weakened Chun, the rest were in
: |> their poorest forms so far (Vega, the fastest scrub in the world here).
: You're wrong again. Blanka was damn near god. His only stronger version was
: HF. The ball was faster, he took normal damage from being hit out of it,
: and he had even more air priority.
Eh? He didn't, same as every version. Flying forward knocks him out of
his rolls. Timed LK did too. In the sky, if Chun was higher, she have
total priority. Only if he was at a vague point, where his flying roundhouse
would just hit and Chun was on the ground could he claim priority, but that
situation would always result in a block. Close together in the sky, flying
roundhouse has ruled him every single version.
: Chun, however, was royally screwed. Her crouching forward was suddenly easy
: to trade with. Her standing forward no longer worked as air defense against
At the tip crouching, you got a perfect hit. Knocked him out of his
electricity stuff easy enough, something you can't do with the
'devil-woman' (ST)
: anyone. Her jumping forward wasn't even as effective as it was in Classic.
standing roundhouse,standing fierce, standing forward. All complemented
each other to give perfect air defence, save the mentioned Blanka priority
win and R/K moving too fast for standing roundhouse. For the last, you could
always block, SBK (aerial or normal), or simply walk under and throw if you
were ready.
: And she didn't have a fast attack to stop body balls because at this point
: her jabs didn't yet repeat rapidly. And the body ball was fast enough to
Close range, jump up, back and flying forward. 'In your face range' you
should have had lk going anyway. I played more CE than I played anything
and I don't think I _ever_ lost to a Blanka. Blanka was the easiest to whip
the CPU with (jump roundhouse all the way through) but was Chun meat.
: penetrate her standing short which used to stop him cold. All in all, chun
: started losing to everyone but the really useless characters. But she could
: still beat Vega, who didn't suck. In fact, Vega replaced Chun as the high-speed
: precision character of choice.
Only hard matches were Ken/Ryu/Sagat. Guile's suddenly started taking loss
after loss from boring headstomp, land with headstomp (smack with flying
roundhouse if he attempted to backfist,upsidedown roundhouse), buffered into
Lk. Roundhouse lk came out easy peasy this version which was about the only
extra chun got (apart from the slow, _slow_ flip kicks)
: Guile, while removed from Godhood was not a piece of cake. Honda did get screwed
If not cake, at least a biscuit.
: since he didn't HURT like he used to. Dhalsim has always had problems with Chun.
: And Zangief couldn't repeat SPD's so it made him fair, but no longer killed his
: opponent in 1 mistake. Ken & Ryu went from being toast by Chun to totally
Ken and Ryu vs Chun were always great matches to watch. Chun at a massive
disadvantage, in that she needed a mistake to win. K&R not being totally
assured because their fireballs were easier to jump over, maintain
position. I won a lot of those matches cos I was pretty damned good and
made a mistake approximately every time I lost. Certainly Sagat was a
nightmare.
: destroying her. Sagat began showing his Chun slaying form.
This was the version where you could only win if Sagat really couldn't
play half decently.
: |> Only Ken/Ryu got off fairly lightly, Ken actually being improved. Considering
: |> the opposition, Chun was strong here.
: Ken, Ryu, and Blanka, at the very least, were improved infinitely.
Blanka managed to live after getting knocked out of ball. That's about it
really. His roundhouse gained cos others lost. And the CPU started
behaving spastic towards him. He was at a disadvantage vs Chun,Vega and
Dhalsim.
K/R had probs with a lot, including Sagat,Guile,Blanka, (according to net
opinion)Bison, Balrog, Vega and Ryu with Ken.
: No more so than her lightning kick looks like Honda's hundred hands. It's
Hundred hands slap you could always start from miles off. Lk was precision.
: an extension of her, since it involves kicking, which is her strong point.
: In fact, you can even see that she walks forward to do it, rather than sliding
: like Honda. She throws out a short, spins around while moving forward, throws
: out another short, spins around and then does a stationary LK. Just a
: concatenation of moves like she regularly does.
Actually, come to think of it, a better way of doing this(the SC) would
have been - One rotation SBK into 5hit LK. The invulnerability part would
be familiar and it would look a lot better to.
: |> Priority - Super Chun has it, ST Chun hasn't. This reeks of brimstone bs.
: ST Chun has it in spades. I win all over the place with her priority. If
: Super Chun has more, I don't know what she'd do with it. I play a lot. I
: jump in the air, my opponent jumps, we both kick, but I win. And I still have
: that SC meter. She must have something resembling priority.
Fei Long, Blanka and Cammy say 'NOT!'. (Yeah Cammy still murders Chun
prioritywise, but at least she(Cammy) has to actually glance vs Super Chun).
Super Chun also has a miles easier time of it vs Vega as she can hit him
full range not being forced to commit into a Vega flip kick. Poor old ST has
to play dodge the claw a lot more.
: |> Silly 8 hits to add to anything - (Mind you don't rip that skirt Ken)
: It's a SC, just like any other characters. That is, all 16 of them, which provide
: everyone a silly n hits to add to anything.
Yeah, all SC's are silly.
: |> The very name itself (Super Streetfighter Two Turbo Edition Chun Li) is
: |> something, I believe, no sensible mortal mind could think of - revealing
: |> demonic possession of Capcom USA staff, who in turn gave birth to the Devil's
: |> little girl.
: How is that so much worse than "Super Streetfighter Two Edition Chun Li"?
The name Super Streetfighter Two Edition Chun Li speaks of a depraved mind.
A creature who adds 'Turbo' to this, must regularly sacrifice chicken blood
on naked virgins.
: You're wrong about the priority, and you're clinging to a cheap trick (Aerial
: SBK), while complaining about a good trick (SC). I think you're the one who's
: been possessed. Out! Begone foul spawn of Hell!
Yikes! You're actually defending the Supercombo bs? Those moves alone
helped make Turbo the financial flop it was for aracades. 'Kewl! 8
hit SC finish!' turns quickly to 'Boring! 33 hit Supercombo finish when
I was winning 90% to 1 slither'. SBK is far too sexy to be cheap, even
in the hacked versions.
Mike Hall (giving up this thread, your last word?)
Scott D Bradburn
|> Scott D Bradburn (sc...@athena.mit.edu) wrote:
|> Less than .2 seconds and you're crossed up if too close as she goes up.
|> The ST Chun flying SBK takes ages, Super definitely not from the ground.
|> .1 seconds is about the fastest anyone can react too, which is how I estimated
|> the .2.
We are both talking about that big arcing SBK, right? Where you jump & SBK
immediately flying up and then down? It does work for both versions, and as
far as I can tell it sucks for both versions. It's slower than her regular
jump, and it's just bait for walk-unders, timed attacks, etc, more so than
her jumping forward.
|> : You're wrong again. Blanka was damn near god. His only stronger version was
|> : HF. The ball was faster, he took normal damage from being hit out of it,
|> : and he had even more air priority.
|> Eh? He didn't, same as every version. Flying forward knocks him out of
|> his rolls.
Sure if Blanka's an idiot and trying to ball you out of the air. However, his
standing fierce easily nails Chun out of the air in CE/HF. So you can't jump
at him. And if you're bouncing back in the corner hoping he balls in to you,
you're toast from a late ball or a walk in and standing fierce.
|> Timed LK did too.
I really don't think you're going to react with a LK to any balls. You couldn't
react to a ball with a HK from 2/3 of the screen, let alone tap jab 3 times.
|> In the sky, if Chun was higher, she have
|> total priority. Only if he was at a vague point, where his flying roundhouse
|> would just hit and Chun was on the ground could he claim priority, but that
|> situation would always result in a block.
He doesn't need to jump at her, he just standing fierces her out of the air.
It works, apparently you didn't see any Blankas that caught on to that. It
makes all the difference in the world. He just charges the ball, uses it a few
times, standing fierces jump-ins, and ticks like a bastard if he can catch Chun
on the ground.
|> Close together in the sky, flying
|> roundhouse has ruled him every single version.
He's not in the air with you. He's in the air alone or on the ground. Yes,
she wins most air to air against his forward jumping attacks. His straight
up jumping attacks beat Chun's forward jumping attacks, but still, the simple
standing fierce owns her.
|> : Chun, however, was royally screwed. Her crouching forward was suddenly easy
|> : to trade with. Her standing forward no longer worked as air defense against
|> At the tip crouching, you got a perfect hit. Knocked him out of his
|> electricity stuff easy enough, something you can't do with the
|> 'devil-woman' (ST)
She can pluck Blanka out of electricity with a damn fireball, so that's a moot
point. Or an 8 hit SC. Or probably any one of several crouching punches. Not
that I'm worried about Blanka's damn electricity.
|> : anyone. Her jumping forward wasn't even as effective as it was in Classic.
|> standing roundhouse,standing fierce, standing forward. All complemented
|> each other to give perfect air defence, save the mentioned Blanka priority
|> win and R/K moving too fast for standing roundhouse. For the last, you could
|> always block, SBK (aerial or normal), or simply walk under and throw if you
|> were ready.
Right, she had pitiful air-defense. The standing fierce works great on people
who couldn't have reached you anyway. The standing roundhouse sucks worse than
the standing forward in CE. She had air defense against poorly timed jump kicks.
Virtually every character in the game could jump in at will on CE Chun. With
some reasonable precaution, that is.
|> : And she didn't have a fast attack to stop body balls because at this point
|> : her jabs didn't yet repeat rapidly. And the body ball was fast enough to
|> Close range, jump up, back and flying forward. 'In your face range' you
|> should have had lk going anyway. I played more CE than I played anything
|> and I don't think I _ever_ lost to a Blanka. Blanka was the easiest to whip
|> the CPU with (jump roundhouse all the way through) but was Chun meat.
No. You never saw a real CE Blanka. You could not react to the body ball with
anything from as far as 2/3 of the screen away. It was lightning fast, even
at CE speed. Plus he could come out of it immediately with a standing fierce
if he balled underneath you.
|> : penetrate her standing short which used to stop him cold. All in all, chun
|> : started losing to everyone but the really useless characters. But she could
|> : still beat Vega, who didn't suck. In fact, Vega replaced Chun as the high-speed
|> : precision character of choice.
|> Only hard matches were Ken/Ryu/Sagat. Guile's suddenly started taking loss
|> after loss from boring headstomp, land with headstomp (smack with flying
|> roundhouse if he attempted to backfist,upsidedown roundhouse), buffered into
|> Lk. Roundhouse lk came out easy peasy this version which was about the only
|> extra chun got (apart from the slow, _slow_ flip kicks)
Guile may not have been a Chun threat, it's too long ago to remember. But
Ken & Ryu were as common as gnats but lethal. A REAL Blanka maimed her.
Sagat was around, obnoxious CE Bison could win as often as not with Torpedo
slime. Chun's worst version. The only characters worse than her were the
useless characters. Chun at least had some spot uses to slay Dhalsims and
Vegas.
|> : since he didn't HURT like he used to. Dhalsim has always had problems with Chun.
|> : And Zangief couldn't repeat SPD's so it made him fair, but no longer killed his
|> : opponent in 1 mistake. Ken & Ryu went from being toast by Chun to totally
|> Ken and Ryu vs Chun were always great matches to watch. Chun at a massive
|> disadvantage, in that she needed a mistake to win. K&R not being totally
|> assured because their fireballs were easier to jump over, maintain
|> position. I won a lot of those matches cos I was pretty damned good and
|> made a mistake approximately every time I lost. Certainly Sagat was a
|> nightmare.
She needed half a dozen mistakes or one Ultra-Idiotic Mistake (tm). There was
no jumping of fireball on reaction unless they made an error, and CE Chun needed
several of those to overcome her shortcomings, or one which let her get a stun
combo in.
|> : Ken, Ryu, and Blanka, at the very least, were improved infinitely.
|> Blanka managed to live after getting knocked out of ball. That's about it
|> really. His roundhouse gained cos others lost. And the CPU started
|> behaving spastic towards him. He was at a disadvantage vs Chun,Vega and
|> Dhalsim.
He ate Chun, he murdered Vega (Ball, ball, ball, ball, ball, standing fierce,
ball, etc.) Dhalsim, I'm not sure. I didn't play Blanka or Dhalsim to know.
|> K/R had probs with a lot, including Sagat,Guile,Blanka, (according to net
|> opinion)Bison, Balrog, Vega and Ryu with Ken.
CE Balrog was not a problem, he fell for FB/Sweep traps horribly. Ryu was
better than Ken even then. K/R were equals for Guile, and probably had the
easiest time with CE Bison of anyone, except maybe Guile. Blanka and Vega
were the only ones who could have an advantage.
|> : No more so than her lightning kick looks like Honda's hundred hands. It's
|> Hundred hands slap you could always start from miles off. Lk was precision.
I've always thought of it as flail on the button when you get close. That's not
precision.
|> : an extension of her, since it involves kicking, which is her strong point.
|> : In fact, you can even see that she walks forward to do it, rather than sliding
|> : like Honda. She throws out a short, spins around while moving forward, throws
|> : out another short, spins around and then does a stationary LK. Just a
|> : concatenation of moves like she regularly does.
|> Actually, come to think of it, a better way of doing this(the SC) would
|> have been - One rotation SBK into 5hit LK. The invulnerability part would
|> be familiar and it would look a lot better to.
Except she's suddenly flipping upside down and right side up so fast she'd make
me dizzy.
[priority]
|> : ST Chun has it in spades. I win all over the place with her priority. If
|> : Super Chun has more, I don't know what she'd do with it. I play a lot. I
|> : jump in the air, my opponent jumps, we both kick, but I win. And I still have
|> : that SC meter. She must have something resembling priority.
|> Fei Long, Blanka and Cammy say 'NOT!'. (Yeah Cammy still murders Chun
|> prioritywise, but at least she(Cammy) has to actually glance vs Super Chun).
What's Cammy doing? ST Chun out-sweeps Cammy, and she can win the quick kick
in the air since she has air speed and altitude on her side. Blanka has about
equal priority, but he's always (since Classic) had about equal air priority.
It's always been a match of who jumped first, or who jumped straight up. And
all Fei has in the air is that funky triple flying kick which out prioritizes
almost everything in the air. The others lose to the flying forward.
|> Super Chun also has a miles easier time of it vs Vega as she can hit him
|> full range not being forced to commit into a Vega flip kick. Poor old ST has
|> to play dodge the claw a lot more.
The ground war doesn't bother me. ST Chun can handle it. It's getting caught
by the flying claw at some point where I can't jump free of it. And the
cross-over claw mixed in with front claws are hard to defend.
|> : |> Silly 8 hits to add to anything - (Mind you don't rip that skirt Ken)
|> : It's a SC, just like any other characters. That is, all 16 of them, which provide
|> : everyone a silly n hits to add to anything.
|> Yeah, all SC's are silly.
That's not something I'm going to debate. They're an aspect of ST whether your
character has one or not. They're in the rules, so I'm going to use that rule
to my best advantage.
|> : How is that so much worse than "Super Streetfighter Two Edition Chun Li"?
|> The name Super Streetfighter Two Edition Chun Li speaks of a depraved mind.
|> A creature who adds 'Turbo' to this, must regularly sacrifice chicken blood
|> on naked virgins.
How exactly do you sacrifice chicken blood?
|> : You're wrong about the priority, and you're clinging to a cheap trick (Aerial
|> : SBK), while complaining about a good trick (SC). I think you're the one who's
|> : been possessed. Out! Begone foul spawn of Hell!
|> Yikes! You're actually defending the Supercombo bs? Those moves alone
|> helped make Turbo the financial flop it was for aracades. 'Kewl! 8
|> hit SC finish!' turns quickly to 'Boring! 33 hit Supercombo finish when
|> I was winning 90% to 1 slither'. SBK is far too sexy to be cheap, even
|> in the hacked versions.
The SC's just make you play carefully for a while. And add to your psychological
game against the opponent. You want to fool him in to thinking you're vulnerable
so he uses his when you can block. You want to fool your opponent into thinking
he's safe so he does something stupid allowing you to SC him. As long as you
play carefully, the SC just fits in to the standard SF2 style of play. You'll
note that SC's are not desparation moves, which reward a person for being nearly
dead, and thus, they're as useful to put your opponent away as they are to make
a miraculous come back. I don't mind them like I would a Fatal Fury/Art of
Fighting style super move. Personally I don't even pay attention to the
combo meter anyway. So I could care less how many hits the combo did. I'm only
watching the damage meter. And so far it hasn't changed a whole lot. A mistake
against most opponents costs you a combo for just shy of half your life, now it
costs you a combo for just over half your life. No big deal.
D
>
> : And she didn't have a fast attack to stop body balls because at this point
> : her jabs didn't yet repeat rapidly. And the body ball was fast enough to
> Close range, jump up, back and flying forward. 'In your face range' you
> should have had lk going anyway. I played more CE than I played anything
> and I don't think I _ever_ lost to a Blanka. Blanka was the easiest to whip
> the CPU with (jump roundhouse all the way through) but was Chun meat.
Jump back and flying forward is good way to stop ball, but damn, sometimes
back aerial SBK comes out. If ball is blocked, Blanka cann't escape from
a fast FB (DeeJay's ball is faster than Chun's).
> Only hard matches were Ken/Ryu/Sagat. Guile's suddenly started taking loss
> after loss from boring headstomp, land with headstomp (smack with flying
> roundhouse if he attempted to backfist,upsidedown roundhouse), buffered into
> Lk. Roundhouse lk came out easy peasy this version which was about the only
> extra chun got (apart from the slow, _slow_ flip kicks)
Guile loses to Chun, but using headstomp a lot is questionable. Guile can
simply air throw her. If Chun lands with headstomp, she can triple kick.
> Fei Long, Blanka and Cammy say 'NOT!'. (Yeah Cammy still murders Chun
> prioritywise, but at least she(Cammy) has to actually glance vs Super Chun).
Chun is Fei's natural enemy, she kicks Cammy too. The basic style is low
forward, triple kick or walk under. Fei is worse because Chun has many ways
to beat him.
Blanka can give Chun a good fight. His fierce uppercut will hit almost
all of Chun's jump attack. His basic style should be stay in the zone where
Chun cann't safely throw FB, and look for a chance. Blanka cann't jump
too much because he is so easily triple kicked. Talking too much about
air poriority is just wasting time.
Allen Klein
|> character is going in. Ryu's 5hit fireball being an example of this.
|> The Chun SC looks more like a Honda hundred-slap technique.
>No more so than her lightning kick looks like Honda's hundred hands. It's
>an extension of her, since it involves kicking, which is her strong point.
>In fact, you can even see that she walks forward to do it, rather than
>sliding
>like Honda. She throws out a short, spins around while moving forward,
>throws
>out another short, spins around and then does a stationary LK. Just a
>concatenation of moves like she regularly does.
FYI - one of the various old versions of SF2IBM (Korean Street Fighter
:-) has a move VERY similar in appearance to Turbo Chun's SC.
--
"callous frigid chill..."
-----------= Jamie Klein =--------------------= yan...@tiac.net =---------
"...nothing left to kill" - Metallica
--
"callous frigid chill..."
-----------= Jamie Klein =--------------------= yan...@tiac.net =---------
"...nothing left to kill" - Metallica
Zass
Scott D Bradburn <sc...@athena.mit.edu> wrote:
>You're wrong again. Blanka was damn near god. His only stronger version was
>HF. The ball was faster, he took normal damage from being hit out of it,
>and he had even more air priority.
Gak?! Blanka?? Blanka in HF was decent, yes, but not CE. Blanka was so
toast against the Ryu/Guile contingent. His balls were easy to react to,
and his jump was both higher and slower. His crouching fierce did not
have near the range it did in HF. Classic Blanka was a much stronger
incarnation. His relative speed was near Chun Li's. He did honda-like
damage. His Fierce/strong/Fierce combo was a near TOD. He was perhaps
the only character besides dhalsim with a hope of a prayer against
Guile.
>Chun, however, was royally screwed. Her crouching forward was suddenly easy
>to trade with. Her standing forward no longer worked as air defense against
>anyone. Her jumping forward wasn't even as effective as it was in Classic.
>And she didn't have a fast attack to stop body balls because at this point
>her jabs didn't yet repeat rapidly. And the body ball was fast enough to
>penetrate her standing short which used to stop him cold. All in all, chun
>started losing to everyone but the really useless characters. But she could
>still beat Vega, who didn't suck. In fact, Vega replaced Chun as the high-speed
>precision character of choice.
Yep. Even her air throw became second rate in CE. She did gain one very
strong advantage, the new LK. What used to be an unusable move became
her first way of doing blocked damage.
>Guile, while removed from Godhood was not a piece of cake. Honda did get screwed
>since he didn't HURT like he used to. Dhalsim has always had problems with Chun.
Uh, no. Honda got several more frames of invulnerability on his jab
torpedo. He lost the greater attack area, but the invulnerability made
it much much better. He also go the HHS to come out after two button
presses, unlike the twenty it took in classic.
-Julien
--
Stream polished pebbles
In the mind's still garden pool