MvC2 rankings...
Dan Tropea
<captain...@excite.com> wrote:
> Just wondering now that some tourns are over what >people think are
the
> best and worst characters. I just got the game too >and wanted to
know
> who to fear and who i'd be better off using.
Just basing it on the game. I still have missing - Cammy, War Machine,
Dan and Felicia.
The best seem to be:
1) Sentinal - he is a button mashers dream. Hit fierce punch and out
pops a beam. He doesn't have great supers though.
2) Iron Man - his fireball beams do a lot of damage even when blocked.
3) Cable - i like how his beam varies in height.
4) Doom - strong and has a lot of moves. Good close and far away.
The worst:
1) Roll cannot stand her. Actually all the little characters are lousy.
Sonson seems to be the best of the three. Megaman is also pretty lousy.
2) The worst Marvel fighter i find is
Disappointing:
I really am disappointed with all the Capcom characters so far. The
fireball characters cannot stand up to the beam fighters. The only
really good Capcom fighter is Captain Commando. Ryu, Ken and Sukura
almost always i find loses to a beam fighter or any Marvel fighter.
The hardest to beat:
I have a hard time whenever Rouge or Psylocke is playing for the CPU -
these two especiallly Rouge goes nuts. Also the end boss final form is
difficult.
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John Syers
> In article <396FC0BF...@excite.com>, FinalAtomicBuster
> <captain...@excite.com> wrote:
> > Just wondering now that some tourns are over what >people think are
> the
> > best and worst characters. I just got the game too >and wanted to
> know
> > who to fear and who i'd be better off using.
>
> Just basing it on the game. I still have missing - Cammy, War Machine,
> Dan and Felicia.
>
> The best seem to be:
> 1) Sentinal - he is a button mashers dream. Hit fierce punch and out
> pops a beam. He doesn't have great supers though.
>
> 2) Iron Man - his fireball beams do a lot of damage even when blocked.
>
> 3) Cable - i like how his beam varies in height.
>
> 4) Doom - strong and has a lot of moves. Good close and far away.
Cyclops is a good all-around character.
>
> The worst:
>
> 1) Roll cannot stand her. Actually all the little characters are lousy.
> Sonson seems to be the best of the three. Megaman is also pretty lousy.
>
> 2) The worst Marvel fighter i find is
>
Since you didn't put anybody here I'll add my two cents. While I wouldn't say she's the worst Marvel
character, Marrow is somewhat disappointing. She's plenty fast, and has good recovery, but like most
pixies she can't take a hit, and for the life of me I can't find any good combos with her. Combo
into special? Combo into super? She's supposed to be able to AC into stinger bones, but I can't do
it consistently, and neither can the computer.
>
> Disappointing:
>
> I really am disappointed with all the Capcom characters so far. The
> fireball characters cannot stand up to the beam fighters. The only
> really good Capcom fighter is Captain Commando. Ryu, Ken and Sukura
> almost always i find loses to a beam fighter or any Marvel fighter.
Hmm...I hadn't thought about that before. I see Guile around here all the time, and a good amount of
Ryu too. I personally am comfortable using Bulleta or Sakura. Sometimes even Morrigan, though as
already said here, anything Morrigan can do, Storm can do better. I also play Cammy (AAA) or Amingo
(just to mix things up a bit). Heck, I still play *Zangief* even though I know he's severely
disadvantaged. I've finally abandoned Chun-li. Oh, how could I forget Jill? She's fun.
But most of these characters can't hold up against the top tier on the Marvel side. I'll bet I could
smoke any combination of these with my OR, Mags & Storm team.
>
>
> The hardest to beat:
>
> I have a hard time whenever Rouge or Psylocke is playing for the CPU -
> these two especiallly Rouge goes nuts. Also the end boss final form is
> difficult.
Untrue. I'd read about how easy it was to beat Abyss before I actually saw him. When I finally did
see him he *looked* pretty difficult, but I found out its no prob. I think I've lost to him *once*,
and that was at home when I was using some off the wall team like Zangief, Juggs, Colossus. Plenty
of power, but you really need a beam character to beat the second form. I did a headcrush on that
crazy laughing pile of goo, and it did that spinning photon array thing and too my juggs OUT. But in
a real game you're going to pick a beam character, or at least a good projectile one. *ANY*
character can beat the first and third forms...
js
3
FinalAtomicBuster
Kevin Lighton
> Dan Tropea wrote:
>> Just basing it on the game. I still have missing - Cammy, War Machine,
>> Dan and Felicia.
Just to fill in the gaps:
War Machine is similar to Iron Man, but Iron Man is a better character.
Cammy and Felicia are both basically pixie types without projectiles.
Dan is (I assume) still Dan. Probably as hopeless as ever.
>> The worst:
>>
>> 1) Roll cannot stand her. Actually all the little characters are lousy.
>> Sonson seems to be the best of the three. Megaman is also pretty lousy.
Actually, I've found Sonson to be okay against low to mid level competition.
Also way up there on the just plain fun list because of the silliness of some
of her moves.
Far from a top level character, though.
>> The hardest to beat:
>>
>> I have a hard time whenever Rouge or Psylocke is playing for the CPU -
>> these two especiallly Rouge goes nuts.
I can usually handle these two using just a barrage of projectiles and not
letting them close (a bit tricky when Rogue goes nuts or Psylocke teleports,
but manageable). Storm going nuts or Cyclops (and sometimes Iceman, depending
on who's on my team) at higher levels can be major problems for me, though.
>> Also the end boss final form is difficult.
> Untrue. I'd read about how easy it was to beat Abyss before I actually saw
> him. When I finally did see him he *looked* pretty difficult, but I found
> out its no prob.
Triple-team supers can demolish his third form. (I managed to take him out
once using just one of these (variety Storm, projectile Sonson, and projectile
Psylocke, I think), although I'm pretty sure the damage setting on the machine
was high.)
> I think I've lost to him *once*, and that was at home when I was using some
> off the wall team like Zangief, Juggs, Colossus. Plenty of power, but you
> really need a beam character to beat the second form.
A decent projectile character will do. Psylocke's Psi-blast goes straight
through his flame blast, 2 of Sonson's monkeys go under it, and there may be
others who have projectiles that go under the flame. (Come to think of it,
wouldn't Juggernaut's earthquake go under the flame?) For most projectiles,
it's a matter of timing it so it hits him between flames.
> *ANY* character can beat the first and third forms...
Well, I wouldn't want to try to beat the third form with Roll or Servbot, but
other than that...
Ja, mata
--
Kevin Lighton lig...@bestweb.net or shin...@operamail.com
http://members.tripod.com/~shinma_kl/main.html
"Townsfolk can get downright touchy over the occasional earth-elemental in
the scullery. Can't imagine why..." Quenten _Winds of Fate_
Ethan Hammond
> War Machine is similar to Iron Man, but Iron Man is a better character.
> Cammy and Felicia are both basically pixie types without projectiles.
> Dan is (I assume) still Dan. Probably as hopeless as ever.
Felicia sort of has a psuedo projectile if you do her sand(?) blast
super that goes all the way across the screen. She also does
it as a move where she knocks sand at the opponent.
--
All Purpose Cultural Randomness
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/apcr/index.html
Kevin Lighton
>> Just to fill in the gaps:
>> War Machine is similar to Iron Man, but Iron Man is a better character.
>> Cammy and Felicia are both basically pixie types without projectiles.
>> Dan is (I assume) still Dan. Probably as hopeless as ever.
> Felicia sort of has a psuedo projectile if you do her sand(?) blast
> super that goes all the way across the screen. She also does
> it as a move where she knocks sand at the opponent.
I had actually thought of the non-super move (after I'd posted the article),
but didn't think it really counted as a projectile due to the range limits.
I had completely ignored supers simply because they're not usable often
enough to really apply to a very short character summary.
And yes, I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be sand, regardless of how unlikely
it is to have that much sand on the ground in some stages.
Chocobo
The best characters are (in no particular order) Sentinel, Cable, Cyclops,
Doom, Blackheart, Commando, Spiral, Juggernaut.
By far the worst character is Zangief, with the other weak ones including
Roll, Kobun, Sonson, and Amingo.
FinalAtomicBuster
>
> The best characters are (in no particular order) Sentinel, Cable, Cyclops,
> Doom, Blackheart, Commando, Spiral, Juggernaut.
>
> By far the worst character is Zangief, with the other weak ones including
> Roll, Kobun, Sonson, and Amingo.
yeah, i was thinking just as much. I think with Zan, he's just really really
hard to use. There's no way he could go from near top to rock bottom in one
game. i don't think any other game has done that yet.
tortoise
>
>The best characters are (in no particular order) Sentinel,
Cable,
Cyclops,
>Doom, Blackheart, Commando, Spiral, Juggernaut.
You're sticking CapCom up there just because of his
assist? Or did some secret new CapCom strategy
just get discovered? I don't think he's up that high,
assist or not.
IMHO Doom is #1 (roughly speaking considering
the team aspect of the game.)
Matt
mgreer[at]artic.edu
"And if your dog or cat ever dies, I'll buy you a ewe."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
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Chocobo
> Chocobo <cho...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >The best characters are (in no particular order) Sentinel,
> Cable,
> Cyclops,
> >Doom, Blackheart, Commando, Spiral, Juggernaut.
>
> You're sticking CapCom up there just because of his
> assist? Or did some secret new CapCom strategy
> just get discovered? I don't think he's up that high,
> assist or not.
>
> IMHO Doom is #1 (roughly speaking considering
> the team aspect of the game.)
His assist is one of the best assists in the game. It's one of the most
effective moves to have around when fighting Doom or Sentinel, and IMO
it's the best one to help make Cable the strongest he can be (Cyclops
being the possible exception). And as a main character, he may not be
particularly strong but he's not too bad. I guess he would be on the
lower end of this list I wrote... but really, who else do you think
belongs higher?
Doom is definitely one of the very top characters, but I'd put Sentinel
as #1 myself, with Doom 2nd and Cable 3rd...
Lupid
Chocobo
> Someone forget Strider?
Nope.
tortoise
>tortoise wrote:
>
>> Chocobo <cho...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >The best characters are (in no particular order) Sentinel,
>> Cable,
>> Cyclops,
>> >Doom, Blackheart, Commando, Spiral, Juggernaut.
>>
>> You're sticking CapCom up there just because of his
>> assist? Or did some secret new CapCom strategy
>> just get discovered? I don't think he's up that high,
>> assist or not.
>>
>> IMHO Doom is #1 (roughly speaking considering
>> the team aspect of the game.)
>
>His assist is one of the best assists in the game.
True, but I think the top tier needs to be reserved
for characters who can be used as the point
character and dominate over a large portion of
the roster. His assist alone isn't going to beat all
the other 40 or so characters that you didn't
mention, not even close. As a main character
he's pretty average.
>it's the best one to help make Cable the
> strongest he can be
I agree with that, but Cable's gain off of
corridor is a pretty unique case. Corridor
is great but doesn't give all characters
in all matchups an advantage in the same
way Doom's rocks do IMO.
> And as a main character, he may not be
>particularly strong but he's not too bad.
I just think as a main character other
characters are better.
> I guess he would be on the
>lower end of this list I wrote... but really,
>who else do you think
>belongs higher?
>
Well I think Storm for sure belongs higher
(even if corridor assist is one of her biggest
enemies,) and Magneto, Iceman, and
Strider would be good candidates.
I just think a character who is top tier on
assist alone has to have one damn good
assist and while Corridor is good it's just
not that good. Doom, in general, has a
better assist and is a much better overall
character. I can't see the two being together.
>Doom is definitely one of the very top characters,
>but I'd put Sentinel as #1 myself, with Doom
>2nd and Cable 3rd...
I think Sentinel vs Doom one on one and three on
three is a 100 post long thread all on its own :)
Matt
mgreer[at]artic.edu
"And if your dog or cat ever dies, I'll buy you a ewe."
-----------------------------------------------------------
AK
: I think Sentinel vs Doom one on one and three on
: three is a 100 post long thread all on its own :)
I dunno, I find that Sentinel has too much advantage over Doom. Sentinel
plus blackheart shuts down Doom plus blackheart since Sentinel can always
has the damage advantage over Doom. Flying Sentinel can swerve high
enough to avoid a lot of Doom's pink stuff if it's 1 on 1.
Sentinel and Blackheart is similar to Doom and Blackheart in features...
you won't land as many hits as you will with the pink stuff, but you only
need to hit a few sj. roundhouse-inferno assist-sj. roundhouse or
rocketpunch-inferno assists before your opponent is forced to switch
out. Might not be as safe/brainless vs. Cable, but in most other matches
Sentinel/Blackheart is just as effective.
--
AK
Chocobo
> Chocobo <cho...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >tortoise wrote:
> >
> >> Chocobo <cho...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >The best characters are (in no particular order) Sentinel,
> >> Cable,
> >> Cyclops,
> >> >Doom, Blackheart, Commando, Spiral, Juggernaut.
> >>
> >> You're sticking CapCom up there just because of his
> >> assist? Or did some secret new CapCom strategy
> >> just get discovered? I don't think he's up that high,
> >> assist or not.
> >>
> >> IMHO Doom is #1 (roughly speaking considering
> >> the team aspect of the game.)
> >
> >His assist is one of the best assists in the game.
>
> True, but I think the top tier needs to be reserved for characters who
> can be used as the point character and dominate over a large portion
> of the roster. His assist alone isn't going to beat all the other 40
> or so characters that you didn't mention, not even close. As a main
> character he's pretty average.
Alone it won't beat all the characters, but there is a huge difference
between a character with an assist like Iron Man's unibeam or Cable's
bomb and a character with the Commando assist. The character with
Commando assist has so much more on his side in almost any circumstance.
>
> >it's the best one to help make Cable the
> > strongest he can be
>
> I agree with that, but Cable's gain off of corridor is a pretty unique
> case. Corridor is great but doesn't give all characters
> in all matchups an advantage in the same way Doom's rocks do IMO.
Most any character gets a pretty huge gain by having a quick, huge
range, decent damage assist like that.
> > And as a main character, he may not be
> >particularly strong but he's not too bad.
>
> I just think as a main character other characters are better.
Certainly true, but their teammates are so much weaker than they'd be
with a Commando assist around.
> > I guess he would be on the
> >lower end of this list I wrote... but really,
> >who else do you think
> >belongs higher?
> >
> Well I think Storm for sure belongs higher
> (even if corridor assist is one of her biggest
> enemies,) and Magneto, Iceman, and
> Strider would be good candidates.
Storm could definitely be up there... I have my doubts about Strider but
I've heard that some CA players have managed to make him good... I just
don't see it myself, he takes too much damage. Magneto is nowhere
close... his assists suck, he's not much without his tempest air combos,
and he takes above average levels of damage. Iceman also can't compare
as far as assists go, and is at about the same level as Commando is as
far as being a successful main character.
> I just think a character who is top tier on assist alone has to have
> one damn good assist and while Corridor is good it's just
> not that good. Doom, in general, has a better assist and is a much
> better overall character. I can't see the two being together.
I didn't say they were equal, Doom is definitely quite a bit better.
> >Doom is definitely one of the very top characters, but I'd put
> Sentinel as #1 myself, with Doom 2nd and Cable 3rd...
>
> I think Sentinel vs Doom one on one and three on three is a 100 post
> long thread all on its own :)
It's a very close one on one fight, but outside from Cable (where Doom
wins and Sentinel loses), it's certainly at least easier for Sentinel to
get his wins.
sol t kim
Chocobo <cho...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>tortoise wrote:
>Alone it won't beat all the characters, but there is a huge difference
>between a character with an assist like Iron Man's unibeam or Cable's
>bomb and a character with the Commando assist. The character with
>Commando assist has so much more on his side in almost any circumstance.
Capcom's assist isn't even close to being the best in the game. It is
GOOD. That's it. added to the fact that he pretty much sucks by himself
doesn't help him.
>> I agree with that, but Cable's gain off of corridor is a pretty unique
>> case. Corridor is great but doesn't give all characters
>> in all matchups an advantage in the same way Doom's rocks do IMO.
>
>Most any character gets a pretty huge gain by having a quick, huge
>range, decent damage assist like that.
Mostly, not all. many characters are better off with something else. Doom
gives huge boost to any type of character (rush, pressure, keepaway), and
the boost is huge.
>> > And as a main character, he may not be
>> >particularly strong but he's not too bad.
>>
>> I just think as a main character other characters are better.
>
>Certainly true, but their teammates are so much weaker than they'd be
>with a Commando assist around.
Why would their teammate be weak? Capcom flat out dies to many top
characters. other characters such as Cyclops or Doom are good on their
own AND they have assist as good, if not better, than Capcom's.
>Storm could definitely be up there... I have my doubts about Strider but
>I've heard that some CA players have managed to make him good... I just
>don't see it myself, he takes too much damage. Magneto is nowhere
>close... his assists suck, he's not much without his tempest air combos,
>and he takes above average levels of damage. Iceman also can't compare
>as far as assists go, and is at about the same level as Commando is as
>far as being a successful main character.
Strider can be awesome if you can control the tempo of the fight. What
helps him tremendously is that he has favorable match ups against some of
the most overpowered characters in the game (i.e Cable and co), AND he can
build up meter fast AND he can use meter efficiently if he wants to.
Damage does hurt him, though, I'd put him around top 10, but not top 5.
Iceman is great against some teams, like Cable, Doom, Cyclops. get ahead
in life and just keep superjumping, blasting icebeams when appropriate.
If your opponent gets frustrated and makes mistakes, dash in with short.
He is far better than Capcom as a main character just because he's likely
to have better matchups than Capcom.
--
AK
: Strider can be awesome if you can control the tempo of the fight. What
: helps him tremendously is that he has favorable match ups against some of
: the most overpowered characters in the game (i.e Cable and co), AND he can
: build up meter fast AND he can use meter efficiently if he wants to.
: Damage does hurt him, though, I'd put him around top 10, but not top 5.
As for top 4, right now I see Cable, Sentinel, Doom, and Blackheart(in no
particular order). I don't see why Strider or Spiral wouldn't be in
there as well... for the same reason why Blackheart is way top tier,
Strider does take out some of the other top-tier real well. Maybe in
this game with such a large top tier, it doesn't make sense to say
whether Strider is in top 5 or not. Just that he's top 10 or top tier is
probably enough. His main problem as I see it is that he doesn't have
catch-up ability such as the likes of Cable, Sentinel or Doom. When you
catch an opponent's assist in orbs, it does jack damage.
--
AK
tortoise
>Alone it won't beat all the characters, but there is a huge
difference
>between a character with an assist like Iron Man's unibeam or
Cable's
>bomb and a character with the Commando assist. The character
with
>Commando assist has so much more on his side in almost any
>circumstance.
>
Yeah that is true. But I dunno, should that rank CapCom
himself high or whoever he's teamed up with at the
moment? I think ranking this game is a little tricky.
If the game goes bad for you and you're only left with
CapCom against Cable/Doom/whatever how good is he
then?
>Most any character gets a pretty huge gain by having a quick,
huge
>range, decent damage assist like that.
>
I think the only real advantage of Corridor is it's fullscreen
height and speed. Up close regular AAA's are usually
better as they have more priority and from some distance
on the ground I think I'd prefer something like juggernaut
punch (assuming I've got a character capable of
backing juggs up.) Also the corridor is difficult to setup
supers and combos off of.
It /is/ a good assist. But like many things in the game,
as time has gone on people have learned to work
around it to a degree. Where as learning to work
around say Doom's rocks isn't quite so easy.
>Certainly true, but their teammates are so much weaker than
they'd be
>with a Commando assist around.
>
but it's also not the only assist that can do that.
>Iceman also can't compare
>as far as assists go
icebeam aint half bad, but it's definitely not
at corridor level.
>and is at about the same level as Commando is as
>far as being a successful main character.
>
maybe I'm just biased in that I find iceman more
effective when I play him. I think he's got even
better keep away despite only having beam and
super (iceball and icefist both suck) and also
pixies better. His block damage trait also helps
against most of the top tier who are almost all
beam characters.
>I didn't say they were equal, Doom is definitely quite a bit
better.
>
I didn't mean equal, more just close enough to even be
mentioned together.
>> I think Sentinel vs Doom one on one and three on three is a
100 post
>> long thread all on its own :)
>
>It's a very close one on one fight, but outside from Cable
(where Doom
>wins and Sentinel loses), it's certainly at least easier for
Sentinel to
>get his wins.
I think I need to see and play against more good
Sentinels. I saw them at midwest tourney but I also
saw really good Dooms :)
Chocobo
> Chocobo <cho...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> >Alone it won't beat all the characters, but there is a huge
> difference
> >between a character with an assist like Iron Man's unibeam or
> Cable's
> >bomb and a character with the Commando assist. The character
> with
> >Commando assist has so much more on his side in almost any
> >circumstance.
> >
> Yeah that is true. But I dunno, should that rank CapCom himself high
> or whoever he's teamed up with at the moment? I think ranking this
> game is a little tricky. If the game goes bad for you and you're only
> left with CapCom against Cable/Doom/whatever how good is he then?
If you're only left with one guy, you're screwed no matter what.
> >I didn't say they were equal, Doom is definitely quite a bit
> better.
> >
> I didn't mean equal, more just close enough to even be
> mentioned together.
They're not close at all, they just happen to be in the top 8 or so
characters together. It might look like I'm overrating Commando to put
him in company like that, but there aren't many, or any, characters
better.
sol t kim wrote:
> >> I agree with that, but Cable's gain off of corridor is a pretty
> unique
> >> case. Corridor is great but doesn't give all characters
> >> in all matchups an advantage in the same way Doom's rocks do IMO.
> >
> >Most any character gets a pretty huge gain by having a quick, huge
> >range, decent damage assist like that.
>
> Mostly, not all. many characters are better off with something else.
> Doom
> gives huge boost to any type of character (rush, pressure, keepaway),
> and
> the boost is huge.
Again, I'm not trying to compare Commando to Doom. I'm only saying he's
more useful than the 47 less fortunate characters.
> >> > And as a main character, he may not be
> >> >particularly strong but he's not too bad.
> >>
> >> I just think as a main character other characters are better.
> >
> >Certainly true, but their teammates are so much weaker than they'd be
>
> >with a Commando assist around.
>
> Why would their teammate be weak?
Ken is weaker than Ryu in A2, that doesn't mean Ken is weak.
> Capcom flat out dies to many top characters.
And so do the vast majority of the other characters.
> >Storm could definitely be up there... I have my doubts about Strider
> but
> >I've heard that some CA players have managed to make him good... I
> just
> >don't see it myself, he takes too much damage. Magneto is nowhere
> >close... his assists suck, he's not much without his tempest air
> combos,
> >and he takes above average levels of damage. Iceman also can't
> compare
> >as far as assists go, and is at about the same level as Commando is
> as
> >far as being a successful main character.
>
> Strider can be awesome if you can control the tempo of the fight.
> What
> helps him tremendously is that he has favorable match ups against some
> of
> the most overpowered characters in the game (i.e Cable and co), AND he
> can
> build up meter fast AND he can use meter efficiently if he wants to.
> Damage does hurt him, though, I'd put him around top 10, but not top
> 5.
Valle just took 2nd place in the country with Strider... I'll just have
to see it to fully believe it.
tortoise
>If you're only left with one guy, you're screwed no matter what.
Not if your one guy is Sentinel, Doom or Cable and
your opponent's one guy is CapCom. That doesn't
happen often in this game but it happens enough
to consider IMO. This is also a situation that puts
iceman in favor IMO. He can run from Doom and
Cable (especially Cable) like no other.
>They're not close at all, they just happen to be in the top 8
or so
>characters together.
That's what is bothering me about your post. To go
through the first seven elite and then *BOOM* hit
CapCom is suggesting the game is too off balance.
I don't have my own real evidence to refute that
(except I think Storm and Iceman certainly fill that
gap a bit, I just need to find others that would as
well.)
[Cable and Corridor]
>> >Most any character gets a pretty huge gain by having a
quick, huge
>> >range, decent damage assist like that.
>>
but in the case of cable it's filling in one huge
hole he has. For most other characters its
added effective offense (and sometimes
defense) but not bringing their
character around to well rounded.
>> Capcom flat out dies to many top characters.
>
>And so do the vast majority of the other characters.
But I also think CapCom dies to iceman, loses to Magneto
and pixies can give him headaches.
>Valle just took 2nd place in the country with Strider... I'll
just have
>to see it to fully believe it.
I think Strider is like 2i Akuma. If you can play well
enough so his damage handicap doesn't matter,
then he's awesome. If not, then he gets slaughtered.
Spider-Dan
Top tier (dominating primary characters):
Doom
Cable
Spiral
Sentinel
Strider
Second tier (effective primary characters, and/or excellent
assist):
Blackheart
Storm
Cyclops
Magneto
Juggernaut
Omega Red
Iceman
Commando
Cammy
Middle tier:
(everyone else but below)
Garbage heap:
Shuma-Gorath
Chun Li
Dan
Zangief
Kobun
Roll
I'm only going to explain the first and last.
Doom is good against too many tournament-level characters and has
no really bad matches. He's an awesome character as primary and
assist, great in a team, great 1-on-1. I'd put him slightly
above Cable on the basis of his assist (Cable's assists are just
OK). Quite simply, Doom is an asset to any team, and unlike
other characters (say Strider or Cable) you don't need to pair
him with a certain character for support (though BH assist does
make him one step short of God).
Zangief can be picked for his very good assist (though as a
primary he is the worst), Kobun can be picked for his legion
super, but there is absolutely no reason to use Roll at any time.
She is the worst.
--
Dan Thompson
[send email to] edge [at] chipware [dot] net
Stilt Man
>Top tier (dominating primary characters):
>Doom
>Cable
>Spiral
>Sentinel
>Strider
Not really arguing on Doom, Cable, or Sentinel. Sentinel loses to Cable and
possibly Doom but he mashes _most_ everyone else. Cable... what to say? Doom?
Ditto.
Strider... I can see the effectiveness but I'm not truly sold that he's really
great enough to warrant putting him on the same page with those three.
What is it that Spiral does that is so overpowering? I've heard her name
mentioned a number of times, but does she really merit mention alongside
the likes of Cable and Doom?
>Second tier (effective primary characters, and/or excellent
>assist):
>Blackheart
>Storm
>Cyclops
>Magneto
>Juggernaut
>Omega Red
>Iceman
>Commando
>Cammy
I would at least make a case for putting Rogue in this second list, though
I don't know if even _I'd_ buy that she belongs in the first. However, the
only chars on either of these lists that I'd immediately balk at having Rogue
take point against are Cable and Omega Red. With Blackheart, Storm, and
Sentinel, it'd depend on the team they've got around them. The rest of these
chars, I wouldn't hesitate to put Rogue out front. She has one of the quickest
initiating offenses in the game (the computer's version of her is a _little_
bit screwy, but I'll grant that it's not _that_ far off what a human can do),
which leaves her with very small exposure to AAA (and, if she keeps a good
one of her own around, she can make that exposure even less). Her super is,
behind the headcrush, probably the best "I block your move and open up the
can of whoop-ass" move that any physical fighter in the game has, and it
combos off of pretty much anything safe she wants to make someone block.
Her power drains can open up huge advantages on the bulk of the chars in the
game. Yes, she has a little bit of trouble with a (very) few keepaway chars
as a point girl... but against the physical fighters and a number of the
slower keepaways, she can hold her own (or much better) with the vast majority
of the chars in the game.
And, although I don't know that the power drain assist really stacks up to
the moc shield, it's at least as useful as many of these, not as something
that you can use over and over, but as the opportunistic little thing that
your opponent has to dread getting caught with if you've ever got a meter.
Unless your opponent has a char that can get away with spending the _entire_
game all the way across the screen from you or up in the stratosphere (and
there aren't many of those) then Rogue can really put some terror into them,
because if that power drain hits even _once_ for a teammate with a meter and
a painful super, it can rip the whole game open.
Probably not enough to get her mention alongside Cable or Doom, no. But her
value both in front and in back at least earns her a spot on the second list.
>Middle tier:
>(everyone else but below)
>Garbage heap:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The Stilt Man stil...@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~stiltman/stiltman.html
< We are Microsoft Borg '98. Lower your expectations and >
< surrender your money. Antitrust law is irrelevant. >
< Competition is irrelevant. We will add your financial and >
< technological distinctiveness to our own. Your software >
< will adapt to service ours. Resistance is futile. >
sol t kim
Chocobo <cho...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> Doom
>> gives huge boost to any type of character (rush, pressure, keepaway),
>> and
>> the boost is huge.
>
>Again, I'm not trying to compare Commando to Doom. I'm only saying he's
>more useful than the 47 less fortunate characters.
This is where I disagree. He is not even *close* to being top 10. To
summerize the entire point I've been trying to make, his AAA is his only
salvation, and even then, there are characters who have arguebly better
AAA AND are better as main characters.
>> >> > And as a main character, he may not be
>> >with a Commando assist around.
>>
>> Why would their teammate be weak?
>
>Ken is weaker than Ryu in A2, that doesn't mean Ken is weak.
This makes no sense. The whole point was that yes, Cable+Capcom is good.
but Cable + Cyclops is unquestionably better. and Cyclops is better than
Capcom when you have to put him out there.
>> Capcom flat out dies to many top characters.
>
>And so do the vast majority of the other characters.
And That justifies putting Capcom in top ten? Because he gets incinerated
just like majority of other characters?
>Valle just took 2nd place in the country with Strider... I'll just have
>to see it to fully believe it.
It's not that hard...just make no mistake, pressure your opponent enough
to build meter, than trap them away. Just the sheer threat of the trap
works many times in your favor.
--
sol t kim
tortoise <mgreerN...@artic.edu.invalid> wrote:
>I think Strider is like 2i Akuma. If you can play well
>enough so his damage handicap doesn't matter,
>then he's awesome. If not, then he gets slaughtered.
You've never seen a 2i Akuma scrub win with airFB, Air Hurricane,
Kick superx2000? =P
You have to know what you are doing with Strider...Just make sure to get
him out of there before he dies. He can come back later when the tempo of
the game goes favorably to you. Strider does not do well on the receiving
end of the damage line.
--
AK
: Here's my thoughts on the rankings, in approximate order:
: Top tier (dominating primary characters):
: Doom
: Cable
: Spiral
: Sentinel
: Strider
: Second tier (effective primary characters, and/or excellent
: assist):
: Blackheart
: Storm
: Cyclops
: Magneto
: Juggernaut
: Omega Red
: Iceman
: Commando
: Cammy
Spiderdan:
Hm, no Dhalsim? I like him cuz he shuts out Doom assist real nice...
well basically all assists that stand there and are not invincible. I
don't see BBHood's place *yet*in the Japanese top tiers, but Dhalsim's place
seems to make sense, at least in tier 2.
Also I'd be willing to put Blackheart up with being as dominant as
those you placed in tier 1. Minor difference I guess... but as an
example, Cyclops/Blackheart is as big of a pain in the ass as
Cable/Cyclops... just that the two teams have different good/bad matches.
Stiltman:
About Sentinel losing to Cable, for some reason I don't buy that
well. I find that Sentinel with Cyclops/BH/Doom/Juggy/insert other handy
assist can usually beat Cable. Drone Fleet equivocates to AHVB and
Sentinel's air dominance is only second to Doom's. In short, the game is
basically assistless, in which case Sentinel has the upperhand in damage.
There's a lot more details, but I choose Sentinel over Cable and do just
as well/better.
--
AK
Stilt Man
AK <ak...@blue.seas.upenn.edu> wrote:
>Stiltman:
>About Sentinel losing to Cable, for some reason I don't buy that
>well. I find that Sentinel with Cyclops/BH/Doom/Juggy/insert other handy
>assist can usually beat Cable. Drone Fleet equivocates to AHVB and
>Sentinel's air dominance is only second to Doom's. In short, the game is
>basically assistless, in which case Sentinel has the upperhand in damage.
>There's a lot more details, but I choose Sentinel over Cable and do just
>as well/better.
There are a lot of cases where Sentinel is better than Cable, I'm not
arguing that. Sentinel has a lot less need for help than Cable does against
most people (i.e. Cable has a serious need for vertical help, Sentinel
doesn't) but Sentinel against Cable _directly_ is bad.
Sentinel's drone fleet is good... but the trouble is, he has to stay on the
ground to use it, and on the ground Cable wins this. Cable can still use
the AHVB near the ground, Sentinel has to stay _off_ the ground, and while
he's good off the ground, he's not good enough that if Cable brings the right
buddies that he can't contain him. Throw on top of that the fact that the
AHVB does about half again as much damage her shot as the drone fleet. Chen's
combo video has a five-shot drone fleet doing about 85% damage to Cyke...
Cable would only need a triple-bake to do close to the same. That's a _lot_
more meter efficiency.
I would agree that Sentinel merits mention alongside Cable at the top. I
just don't think he does that well in a head-to-head against Cable himself;
if I've got a good enough Cable on my hands that I don't think I can get the
job done with Rogue my cursor's still headed in Doom's direction rather than
Sentinel's. Against the rest of the field, Sentinel is probably stronger
than Cable, and his swarm assist is better than any of Cable's, but head-to-
head, I don't like Sentinel in this fight.
Fluffy
Spider-Dan <spid...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Here's my thoughts on the rankings, in approximate order:
>
> Top tier (dominating primary characters):
>
> Doom
> Cable
> Spiral
> Sentinel
> Strider
>
> Second tier (effective primary characters, and/or excellent
> assist):
>
> Blackheart
> Storm
> Cyclops
> Magneto
> Juggernaut
> Omega Red
> Iceman
> Commando
> Cammy
I pretty much agree with most of this, but personally, I would switch
Strider and Storm's spots. There are a couple of reasons for this.
First off, I find Storm's versatility a great asset in this kind of
game. She has excellent keep-away abilities with all of the flying, air
dashing, and typhoons. She also has good pixie abilities, being on par
or better than Doom in that department. Lightning Attack is just too
good. Her overall mobility puts her as top tier to me. She can be
anywhere almost at will.
Now Strider, on the other hand, isn't as dangerous as I previously
thought. I've been playing him a little more and the more I play him,
the more I don't like him. He doesn't do very much damage anymore. By
the time you get Ouro hitting, the damage scaling makes the damage he
does pathetic. Depending on your character's stamina, it's often better
to actually take the damage from Strider, seeing as how you take almost
the same amount in chipping and you'll be ahead on meter.
Also, without Doom, his chipping strategy is almost gone. Blackheart
is another good Strider helper, but even then it's not as solid a
lockdown or as solid a chipping trap as Strider/Doom. Strider's Ouro
is so weakened now. It's duration is so short and the rings do Kobun
damage at best. As I already stated, because of that, damage scaling
takes into effect very fast and there isn't even an opportunity to
get a good Fierce or Roundhouse in because they will pop you out of
the Ouro. Any character with an air dash or double/triple jump can have
an easy time avoiding him in Ouro (w/out Blackheart). By the time you
land, Strider's Ouro is just about gone. It just seems to me that
Strider is like a table with one leg. In order to stand, he needs the
other two legs. Take one away (Doom) and he crumbles.
> Middle tier:
>
> (everyone else but below)
>
> Garbage heap:
>
> Shuma-Gorath
> Chun Li
> Dan
> Zangief
> Kobun
> Roll
It's amazing that this is arguably the best incarnation of Dan in any SF
game, and he still sucks...
> I'm only going to explain the first and last.
>
> Doom is good against too many tournament-level characters and has
> no really bad matches. He's an awesome character as primary and
> assist, great in a team, great 1-on-1. I'd put him slightly
> above Cable on the basis of his assist (Cable's assists are just
> OK). Quite simply, Doom is an asset to any team, and unlike
> other characters (say Strider or Cable) you don't need to pair
> him with a certain character for support (though BH assist does
> make him one step short of God).
Agreed, but I wanted to add that a problem match i've experienced with
Doom is against Spiral. Because of the teleport, you can't really SJ
w/photon shocks, and if she gets a set of knives out and starts,
j.fierce is gone as well. Then, you're stuck on the ground until you
can get a SJ photon shock off, then she teleports above you and takes no
damage.
> Zangief can be picked for his very good assist (though as a
> primary he is the worst), Kobun can be picked for his legion
> super, but there is absolutely no reason to use Roll at any time.
> She is the worst.
>
> --
> Dan Thompson
> [send email to] edge [at] chipware [dot] net
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
> Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
> Up to 100 minutes free!
> http://www.keen.com
>
>
--
Fluffy
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
John Syers
<snip>
> And, although I don't know that the power drain assist really stacks up to
> the moc shield, it's at least as useful as many of these, not as something
> that you can use over and over, but as the opportunistic little thing that
> your opponent has to dread getting caught with if you've ever got a meter.
> Unless your opponent has a char that can get away with spending the _entire_
> game all the way across the screen from you or up in the stratosphere (and
> there aren't many of those) then Rogue can really put some terror into them,
> because if that power drain hits even _once_ for a teammate with a meter and
> a painful super, it can rip the whole game open.
Eh? Would you mind going into detail? I know you have before, but I haven't
gotten it yet. All you talk about Rogue has gotten me interested in her, but my
gameplay is horrendous. I'm more effective with Zangief than Rogue.
So are you saying you can combo into Rogue's super from power drain, then DHC?
> >Garbage heap:
>
> >Shuma-Gorath
> >Chun Li
> >Dan
> >Zangief
> >Kobun
> >Roll
!!!
Three of my favorite characters on the garbage heap (Shuma, Chun, Zan). No wonder
I was losing so many games...
js
3
Chocobo
> In article <3972C2AB...@mindspring.com>,
> Chocobo <cho...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >> Doom
> >> gives huge boost to any type of character (rush, pressure, keepaway),
> >> and
> >> the boost is huge.
> >
> >Again, I'm not trying to compare Commando to Doom. I'm only saying he's
> >more useful than the 47 less fortunate characters.
>
> This is where I disagree. He is not even *close* to being top 10. To
> summerize the entire point I've been trying to make, his AAA is his only
> salvation, and even then, there are characters who have arguebly better
> AAA AND are better as main characters.
I understand what you're saying... if you take a look at him as compared to
the rest of the top characters, he's definitely weaker, and it seems like he
doesn't belong there. But think about it... who else is better? If he's not
even close to top 10, can you name 15 characters who are better? There simply
aren't that many.
> >> >> > And as a main character, he may not be
>
> >> >with a Commando assist around.
> >>
> >> Why would their teammate be weak?
> >
> >Ken is weaker than Ryu in A2, that doesn't mean Ken is weak.
>
> This makes no sense.
That makes complete sense. I said "A character without Commando assist is
weaker than one with Commando assist", and you asked why the one without
Commando assist is weak. I didn't say that character would be weak in general.
I said that character would be weaker than if he had a Commando assist around.
> The whole point was that yes, Cable+Capcom is good.
> but Cable + Cyclops is unquestionably better.
It depends on the fight. Cyclops is certainly not better when against Doom,
and probably not for fighting Sentinel either. Those are important matches.
> >> Capcom flat out dies to many top characters.
> >
> >And so do the vast majority of the other characters.
>
> And That justifies putting Capcom in top ten? Because he gets incinerated
> just like majority of other characters?
Where did you get that idea? I said nothing like that. Commando's
justification for being in the top ten is that he's one of the top ten
characters, of course. It does seem like he doesn't belong in the company of
characters like Cable and Doom, but look at the other characters that are
competing for that "barely in top 10" spot. Who else is better? Ken? Magneto?
Akuma? Silver Samurai? The fact is, he is better than most of the characters
in the game.
> >Valle just took 2nd place in the country with Strider... I'll just have
> >to see it to fully believe it.
>
> It's not that hard...just make no mistake, pressure your opponent enough to
> build meter, than trap them away. Just the sheer threat of the trap works
> many times in your favor.
From what I've seen, the trap has too many holes in it, and an anti-air assist
will hit Strider fairly often. As I said, I'll have to see it to believe it.
Chocobo
> Chocobo <cho...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> >If you're only left with one guy, you're screwed no matter what.
>
> Not if your one guy is Sentinel, Doom or Cable and
> your opponent's one guy is CapCom. That doesn't
> happen often in this game but it happens enough
> to consider IMO. This is also a situation that puts
> iceman in favor IMO. He can run from Doom and
> Cable (especially Cable) like no other.
The situation mentioned was one character against two or more others,
not against a single Commando. Even Sentinel is at a disadvantage for
many two on one situations since he doesn't have an assist.
> >They're not close at all, they just happen to be in the top 8
> or so
> >characters together.
>
> That's what is bothering me about your post. To go
> through the first seven elite and then *BOOM* hit
> CapCom is suggesting the game is too off balance.
I don't understand what you're saying here.
> [Cable and Corridor]
> >> >Most any character gets a pretty huge gain by having a
> quick, huge
> >> >range, decent damage assist like that.
> >>
>
> but in the case of cable it's filling in one huge hole he has. For
> most other characters its added effective offense (and sometimes
> defense) but not bringing their character around to well rounded.
I'm not sure what you're saying here either, but there's no denying that
the Commando assist is one of the most useful moves in the game to have
handy.
> >> Capcom flat out dies to many top characters.
> >
> >And so do the vast majority of the other characters.
>
> But I also think CapCom dies to iceman, loses to Magneto and pixies
> can give him headaches.
He isn't the greatest point character, of course. I'm not sure about
losing to Magneto, unless you mean one on one... Magneto isn't so good.
Stilt Man
>Stilt Man wrote:
>> And, although I don't know that the power drain assist really stacks up to
>> the moc shield, it's at least as useful as many of these, not as something
>> that you can use over and over, but as the opportunistic little thing that
>> your opponent has to dread getting caught with if you've ever got a meter.
>> Unless your opponent has a char that can get away with spending the _entire_
>> game all the way across the screen from you or up in the stratosphere (and
>> there aren't many of those) then Rogue can really put some terror into them,
>> because if that power drain hits even _once_ for a teammate with a meter and
>> a painful super, it can rip the whole game open.
>Eh? Would you mind going into detail? I know you have before, but I haven't
>gotten it yet. All you talk about Rogue has gotten me interested in her, but
>my gameplay is horrendous. I'm more effective with Zangief than Rogue.
>So are you saying you can combo into Rogue's super from power drain, then DHC?
Well, yes you can, by doing an OTG low short in the corner and DHC from there
if you want. But that wasn't what I meant.
Rogue's power drain _assist_ is one of the better moves in the game to set up
a super. True, there are other "knock people up in the air" ones, but these
can be blocked, it takes almost inhuman reflexes to realize you've got a
chance, and they're only most effective with people who have devastating
air combos (e.g. Magneto, and if you're one of those guys with the inhuman
reflexes, Cable). Rogue's, on the other hand, is quite easy to hit someone
afterwards. She gives you all day to react, you step forward a little bit
so your char turns around towards where the enemy is going to be thrown,
and fire away. There are chars who can't exploit this one, either, but there's
a lot more who can exploit it than, say, Psylocke's.
Rogue as point is a bit harder to pull off than her assist exploitation, but
that can be done, too.
sol t kim
Chocobo <cho...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>sol t kim wrote:
>
>I understand what you're saying... if you take a look at him as compared to
>the rest of the top characters, he's definitely weaker, and it seems like he
>doesn't belong there. But think about it... who else is better? If he's not
>even close to top 10, can you name 15 characters who are better? There simply
>aren't that many.
Well....Refer to SpiderDan's rankings, I'm not really crafty with this
kind of thing...always forget a character or two..
Doom
Cable
Sentinel
Spiral
Strider
Storm
Blackheart
Iceman
Jaggernaut
Cyclops
Cammie
eh..than maybe Capcom...but I'm sure I'm forgetting someone. In any case,
He does not make top 10.
>That makes complete sense. I said "A character without Commando assist is
>weaker than one with Commando assist", and you asked why the one without
>Commando assist is weak. I didn't say that character would be weak in general.
>I said that character would be weaker than if he had a Commando assist around.
Of course 2vs1 is much better. That does nothing to support your point,
as I can simply say, Servebot with Sonson Anti air assist is better
than just Servebot. If you mean to say that Capcom's AAA is the best in
the game, that is questionable. It does belong to top five, but all the
other characters are so much better than him as the pointer character.
>> The whole point was that yes, Cable+Capcom is good.
>> but Cable + Cyclops is unquestionably better.
>
>It depends on the fight. Cyclops is certainly not better when against Doom,
>and probably not for fighting Sentinel either. Those are important matches.
Cyclops is tons better against Iceman and Strider, who are also
important opponent....and Cyclops can battle against Doom and Sentinel to
some degree, something which Capcom cannot hope to do.
>> >> Capcom flat out dies to many top characters.
>> >
>> >And so do the vast majority of the other characters.
>>
>> And That justifies putting Capcom in top ten? Because he gets incinerated
>> just like majority of other characters?
>
>Where did you get that idea? I said nothing like that. Commando's
>justification for being in the top ten is that he's one of the top ten
>characters, of course. It does seem like he doesn't belong in the company of
>characters like Cable and Doom, but look at the other characters that are
>competing for that "barely in top 10" spot. Who else is better? Ken? Magneto?
>Akuma? Silver Samurai? The fact is, he is better than most of the characters
>in the game.
Read the above quote. Just as assist by itself, Akuma's expansion assist
is actually much better than Capcom's AAA.
>> >Valle just took 2nd place in the country with Strider... I'll just have
>> >to see it to fully believe it.
>>
>> It's not that hard...just make no mistake, pressure your opponent enough to
>> build meter, than trap them away. Just the sheer threat of the trap works
>> many times in your favor.
>
>From what I've seen, the trap has too many holes in it, and an anti-air assist
>will hit Strider fairly often. As I said, I'll have to see it to believe it.
Choc, nothing against you personal, but I don't think your experience with
MvC2 is that deep. For one thing, you are over estimating Capcom's AAA,
when by now, many people have found ways around it or better solutions
compared to it. People were raving about how good Capcom's AAA is about a
month and a half ago (and this was before Strider became big), and you may
be in a similiar phase right now. There are tricks to prevent AAA from
hitting strider, it's simple concept but kinda hard to say here on paper.
Basically, it involves hitting them with rings before teleporting so that
your opponent is stuck on the block stun, and if he called his assist
before blocking the rings, AAA faces the wrong direction. Sounds
stupidly simple, but it works...with good timing.
--
tortoise
>> That's what is bothering me about your post. To go
>> through the first seven elite and then *BOOM* hit
>> CapCom is suggesting the game is too off balance.
>
>I don't understand what you're saying here.
I'm basically saying your post was suggesting the gap
between first and second tier is huge. Doom, Cable,
Sentinel, etc IMO are all pretty near each other and from
say #1 to #7 or so the characters' overall effectiveness
is only dropping off gradually. Then you get to CapCom (who
you suggested was next in line) and from there, IMO,
the effectiveness of the characters takes a huge flying
leap downwards.
To me that would suggest a game that has horrible
balance when the elite characters are leagues beyond
everyone else. But from my experience that isn't the case
as at least Storm and Iceman fit inbetween CapCom and
your top tier. I'm sure more do but I've been working all
weekend and have barely sat down to think about this.
>> but in the case of cable it's filling in one huge hole he
has. For
>> most other characters its added effective offense (and
sometimes
>> defense) but not bringing their character around to well
rounded.
>
>I'm not sure what you're saying here either
I'm saying Cable has an achilles heel of not being able to
handle air attacks, particularly super jumps. In this case
CapCom and Cable go together perfectly. Cable has
a specific weakness that Commando just happens to
fill in perfectly.
For other characters this may not be their weakness and so
the corridor becomes nothing more than general added
offense.
Then take Guile or someone. He doesn't really care about
people jumping in on him or getting close. So for him the
corridor is just another option for dealing damage rather
than controlling one weakness he has (assuming he's not
up against Doom or Storm.)
> but there's no denying that
>the Commando assist is one of the most useful moves in the game
to
have
>handy.
>
Well sure, very few characters are actually hindered by it.
Basically what I'm saying is it benefits some characters
more than others.
>He isn't the greatest point character, of course. I'm not sure
about
>losing to Magneto, unless you mean one on one... Magneto isn't
so
good.
Well no, but neither is CapCom! :) Forget Magneto since I
don't really play him. How would you put CapCom above Iceman?
I just don't see it. Assists are obviously important in this game
but not that important.
Matt
mgreer[at]artic.edu
"And if your dog or cat ever dies, I'll buy you a ewe."
-----------------------------------------------------------
tortoise
>and Cyclops can battle against Doom and Sentinel to
>some degree, something which Capcom cannot hope to do.
>
I dunno about that actually. CapCom has two moves that
specifically kill bombers, Corridor and Sword. Doesn't
mean he beats Doom, but Doom has to rethink his tactics.
AK
: sol t kim wrote:
: > In article <3972C2AB...@mindspring.com>,
: > Chocobo <cho...@mindspring.com> wrote:
: > >> Doom
: > >> gives huge boost to any type of character (rush, pressure, keepaway),
: > >> and
: > >> the boost is huge.
: > >
: > >Again, I'm not trying to compare Commando to Doom. I'm only saying he's
: > >more useful than the 47 less fortunate characters.
: >
: > This is where I disagree. He is not even *close* to being top 10. To
: > summerize the entire point I've been trying to make, his AAA is his only
: > salvation, and even then, there are characters who have arguebly better
: > AAA AND are better as main characters.
: I understand what you're saying... if you take a look at him as compared to
: the rest of the top characters, he's definitely weaker, and it seems like he
: doesn't belong there. But think about it... who else is better? If he's not
: even close to top 10, can you name 15 characters who are better? There simply
: aren't that many.
Just cuz you can shake out of Magneto's magnetic tempest combo doesn't
make him trash. I believe you can even shake out of it in the corner
(you end up not flying back as far, but you can still block? might have
just been that my opponent magneto messed up the AC prior the hypergrav
XX tempest), even then... his AC still hurts(49/143 using his simple AC
dash AC) and the thing is he can land it.. a lot.
I don't think he belongs in top 10 either. SS definitely is up there
(teleport defense and anti-assist qualities) as is Dhalsim. Psylocke
could arguably go up above CapCom as well. I just don't see his value
seeing how easy his assist gets shut down by the other assists in the
game(Doom, BH from a distance, and most AAA).
--
AK
Chocobo
> Chocobo (cho...@mindspring.com) wrote:
> : sol t kim wrote:
>
> : > In article <3972C2AB...@mindspring.com>,
> : > Chocobo <cho...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> : > >> Doom
> : > >> gives huge boost to any type of character (rush, pressure, keepaway),
> : > >> and
> : > >> the boost is huge.
> : > >
> : > >Again, I'm not trying to compare Commando to Doom. I'm only saying he's
> : > >more useful than the 47 less fortunate characters.
> : >
> : > This is where I disagree. He is not even *close* to being top 10. To
> : > summerize the entire point I've been trying to make, his AAA is his only
> : > salvation, and even then, there are characters who have arguebly better
> : > AAA AND are better as main characters.
>
> : I understand what you're saying... if you take a look at him as compared to
> : the rest of the top characters, he's definitely weaker, and it seems like he
> : doesn't belong there. But think about it... who else is better? If he's not
> : even close to top 10, can you name 15 characters who are better? There simply
> : aren't that many.
>
> Just cuz you can shake out of Magneto's magnetic tempest combo doesn't
> make him trash.
I didn't say it did make him trash. But it definitely keeps him from being
especially strong.
> I believe you can even shake out of it in the corner
> (you end up not flying back as far, but you can still block? might have
> just been that my opponent magneto messed up the AC prior the hypergrav
> XX tempest), even then... his AC still hurts(49/143 using his simple AC
> dash AC) and the thing is he can land it.. a lot.
Not that often, unless you're playing a character who has nothing outside of ground
based moves.
> I don't think he belongs in top 10 either. SS definitely is up there
> (teleport defense and anti-assist qualities)
Who is SS, Silver Samurai? What does he have, at all?
> as is Dhalsim.
I have a real hard time believing that...
> Psylocke
> could arguably go up above CapCom as well. I just don't see his value
> seeing how easy his assist gets shut down by the other assists in the
> game(Doom, BH from a distance, and most AAA).
Psylocke has potential, I doubt many people have found out just how good she can be
yet.
Chocobo
> In article <3973812F...@mindspring.com>,
> Chocobo <cho...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >sol t kim wrote:
> >
> >I understand what you're saying... if you take a look at him as compared to
> >the rest of the top characters, he's definitely weaker, and it seems like he
> >doesn't belong there. But think about it... who else is better? If he's not
> >even close to top 10, can you name 15 characters who are better? There simply
> >aren't that many.
>
> Well....Refer to SpiderDan's rankings, I'm not really crafty with this
> kind of thing...always forget a character or two..
>
> Doom
> Cable
> Sentinel
> Spiral
> Strider
> Storm
> Blackheart
> Iceman
> Jaggernaut
> Cyclops
> Cammie
>
> eh..than maybe Capcom...but I'm sure I'm forgetting someone. In any case,
> He does not make top 10.
Before, you said that Commando doesn't even come close to being in the top 10. And
now with this list, you fill it with "they might possibly be better, maybe"
characters like Iceman, Cammy, and Storm. It appears that we do sort of agree just
about where Commando belongs, after all. Before, you acted so surprised that I
could even suggest that Commando is top 10, and you put him at 12 yourself.
> >That makes complete sense. I said "A character without Commando assist is
> >weaker than one with Commando assist", and you asked why the one without
> >Commando assist is weak. I didn't say that character would be weak in general.
> >I said that character would be weaker than if he had a Commando assist around.
>
> Of course 2vs1 is much better. That does nothing to support your point,
> as I can simply say, Servebot with Sonson Anti air assist is better
> than just Servebot.
I didn't say that it did support my point. You seemed to be assuming that I was
saying the character without the Commando assist would automatically suck, and I
wanted to clear it up that that was not the case.
> >> The whole point was that yes, Cable+Capcom is good.
> >> but Cable + Cyclops is unquestionably better.
> >
> >It depends on the fight. Cyclops is certainly not better when against Doom,
> >and probably not for fighting Sentinel either. Those are important matches.
>
> Cyclops is tons better against Iceman and Strider, who are also
> important opponent...
I think you may overrate Iceman a bit... and while Cyclops is undeniably good,
Commando is better to have against the more important matches of Doom, Sentinel,
and runaway Cable... it's not like he's terrible against Strider and anyone else,
anyway.
> and Cyclops can battle against Doom and Sentinel to
> some degree, something which Capcom cannot hope to do.
While Cyclops is a stronger point character, Commando is not hopeless in those
fights. Doom can't play keepaway with photons because of corridor into captain
sword, and Sentinel is a big target for that same combo also. Of course, it doesn't
look good for Commando, but it isn't hopeless.
> >> >> Capcom flat out dies to many top characters.
> >> >
> >> >And so do the vast majority of the other characters.
> >>
> >> And That justifies putting Capcom in top ten? Because he gets incinerated
> >> just like majority of other characters?
> >
> >Where did you get that idea? I said nothing like that. Commando's
> >justification for being in the top ten is that he's one of the top ten
> >characters, of course. It does seem like he doesn't belong in the company of
> >characters like Cable and Doom, but look at the other characters that are
> >competing for that "barely in top 10" spot. Who else is better? Ken? Magneto?
> >Akuma? Silver Samurai? The fact is, he is better than most of the characters
> >in the game.
>
> Read the above quote.
I'm afraid I don't know what you mean by this.
> >> >Valle just took 2nd place in the country with Strider... I'll just have
> >> >to see it to fully believe it.
> >>
> >> It's not that hard...just make no mistake, pressure your opponent enough to
> >> build meter, than trap them away. Just the sheer threat of the trap works
> >> many times in your favor.
> >
> >From what I've seen, the trap has too many holes in it, and an anti-air assist
> >will hit Strider fairly often. As I said, I'll have to see it to believe it.
>
> Choc, nothing against you personal, but I don't think your experience with
> MvC2 is that deep.
I don't want to get into a ridiculous argument of "you're not good" "yes I am"
which will lead nowhere... I'll just say that I disagree with your statement. I am
the best player in Virginia (the second best state for SF on the east coast) and
have won a few tournaments. This is in no way meant to be bragging, or even a
statement that I'm anything special in MVC2... the competition absolutely sucks,
and I know that dozens of west coast players could beat me with their eyes closed
or whatever... what I'm trying to say is though, I'm no newbie to Marvel or to this
game in particular.
> For one thing, you are over estimating Capcom's AAA,
> when by now, many people have found ways around it or better solutions
> compared to it.
I don't think I am overestimating it.
> People were raving about how good Capcom's AAA is about a
> month and a half ago (and this was before Strider became big), and you may
> be in a similiar phase right now.
This is not like a month or two ago when his assist would be almost a guaranteed
hit, when no one had gotten used to a big move suddenly appearing on the screen
with little warning, when no one had thought that playing in a style with the goal
to avoid the assist was something that you could do. I know how the game works. But
the fact of the matter is that it's simply a great move. It's almost as good for
ground based fighting as the assists such as Cammy, and it's much better than those
assists against an opponent who is trying to keep away from you. It's not the best
thing in the game, it's not BS by any stretch of the mind, but it does help him to
become an overall more useful character than someone like Iceman.
Ink Heads
constant knives (wait for Duc videos from B4), instant teleport..air combo into
knives into morph super (way too good)...air combo into DP throw into another
one
but of course, that's duc's Spiral. He can throw knives, re activate in the air
before the knives hit you then throw more, repeat..
AK
: >What is it that Spiral does that is so overpowering?
: constant knives (wait for Duc videos from B4), instant teleport..air combo into
: knives into morph super (way too good)...air combo into DP throw into another
: one
: but of course, that's duc's Spiral. He can throw knives, re activate in the air
: before the knives hit you then throw more, repeat..
Add to that her corner throw infinite that must be tech'd, not rolled...
that also flows nice into her level 3 metamorph. Her knives game is good
for lockdowns with right assists, her teleport is good once you realize her
teleport can be used midair and midattack and always lands above(there
goes Doom or Blackheart), her speedup is good for her corner infinite, and
then after playing for a while you'll see she's a crazy meter builder since
her teleport builds meter as does her knives call (basically whatever she
does). She doesn't rely on supers to win, so her meter building capabilities
are apparent. With the right assists, she becomes even more capable. In
order of rank, I'd say her power lies with her knives, teleport, then her
s. fierce. She'd lose half her game without that s. fierce...
--
AK
Rick Carroll
>DHC?
What he is saying that Rogue's power drain assist will set up a super for
whoever his current active character is. I haven't played too much Rogue in
MVC2, but I was wondering if she can still super off of a power drain in the
corner like she could in XVSF?
I was also wondering what everyone thinks of Felicia? No one talks about her
much in here and was curious as to where people think she rates. In my
experience with her she seems to hold her own very well against some of the top
characters such as Sentinel, Doom, Strider, Blackheart, but she dies horribly
to other pixies and Cable. Her litterbox kick super is the perfect assist
punisher and her QCB+KK super helps to limit keepaway tactics with its tracking
ability. Her damage handicap is a pain, but overall I think she is a decent
character, with great potential in the hands of a great player. What does
everyone else think?
AK
: I was also wondering what everyone thinks of Felicia? No one talks about her
: much in here and was curious as to where people think she rates. In my
: experience with her she seems to hold her own very well against some of the top
: characters such as Sentinel, Doom, Strider, Blackheart, but she dies horribly
: to other pixies and Cable. Her litterbox kick super is the perfect assist
: punisher and her QCB+KK super helps to limit keepaway tactics with its tracking
: ability. Her damage handicap is a pain, but overall I think she is a decent
: character, with great potential in the hands of a great player. What does
: everyone else think?
Her air maneuverability absolutely sucks (slow jump? I think that's what
it's due to). I don't see her beating Blackheart or Sentinel or Doom..
or Strider for that matter. What exactly does she have against them?
Doom, Sentinel, and Blackheart all own the air and the distance game, and
Strider has his own method of dominance via better non-stop offense than
Felicia. I see Felicia as a "better" version of Spiderman, but
nothing more. She can give a non-stop offense, but a lot of her
attacks/combos are rollable and she lacks in the distance game.
Qcb+kk is the help me super, right? That doesn't track high up.
Blackheart is king of that. Granted her assist punishing super is real
nice (2 of them can really hurt your assist, 3 is usually near death),
but aside from that, I don't see where she excels.
--
AK
Stilt Man
Well, while I'm not the greatest proponent of Iceman's dominance, his
usefulness is on a lot of different areas than Commando's. The fact that
any energy-based attack won't do block damage to him basically says that,
if you don't have Doom's rocks sitting in the back somewhere, you're probably
at a disadvantage right there if Iceman simply avoids screwing up badly enough
to get hit by something like a headcrush or an AHVB. (There are a few other
things that will hurt Iceman, and it _is_ true that basically anyone with
decent mobility and Doom's rocks can chew Iceman up something awful, but the
fact remains that Iceman is still a big mess for a lot of potential teams
that would otherwise be viable.)
That said, I'm pretty well on record as _never_ having been a huge fan of
CapCom's corridor. I was never a believer when everyone was touting it as
the best assist in the game, because even then I was observing it losing
frequent head-on collisions with Cammy's cannon spike (and said so here).
When folks were wonderingly claiming it was practically invulnerable, I
pointed out that basically any hit below knee level would stuff it cold.
Now, I'm less a fan of it than ever. There is simply very little you can
get from CapCom that you can't get a better combination of somewhere else.
If you're trying to control the ground, Cammy, Cyclops, Psylocke, and Doom
will all get the job done better. If you're trying to control Doom or
Storm (or any other high-altitude freakazoids), Cammy is just as good
against Doom and not much worse against Storm, and Blackheart is far better
for both because he's "fire and forget". Heck, Storm herself can work like
a Blackheart-lite for this, although it's far easier to evade the typhoons
than it is the infernos.
I, personally, am thinking that I'm probably going to start phasing Cammy
out and Blackheart into my "A team" behind Doom and Rogue now... what Cammy
does for the squad, Doom can get away with if I time things right, and
Blackheart simply solves too many problems that both Rogue and Doom have
in the keepaway game for me not to want to at least figure out how to
integrate him in.
sol t kim
>> Cable
>> Sentinel
>> Spiral
>> Strider
>> Storm
>> Blackheart
>> Iceman
>> Jaggernaut
>> Cyclops
>> Cammie
>>
>> eh..than maybe Capcom...but I'm sure I'm forgetting someone. In any case,
>> He does not make top 10.
>
>Before, you said that Commando doesn't even come close to being in the
>top 10. And
>now with this list, you fill it with "they might possibly be better, maybe"
>characters like Iceman, Cammy, and Storm. It appears that we do sort of
>agree just
>about where Commando belongs, after all. Before, you acted so surprised that I
>could even suggest that Commando is top 10, and you put him at 12 yourself.
I said I'm sure I've forgotten someone, and I still am. Capcom barely
makes top 15, if that. Iceman/Cammy/Storm are not "might possibly be
better" they ARE unquestionably better than Capcom.
>> Of course 2vs1 is much better. That does nothing to support your point,
>> as I can simply say, Servebot with Sonson Anti air assist is better
>> than just Servebot.
>
>I didn't say that it did support my point. You seemed to be assuming that I was
>saying the character without the Commando assist would automatically suck, and I
>wanted to clear it up that that was not the case.
Well, that's what I thought you said. What was your original point, than?
>> >> The whole point was that yes, Cable+Capcom is good.
>> >> but Cable + Cyclops is unquestionably better.
>> >
>> >It depends on the fight. Cyclops is certainly not better when against Doom,
>> >and probably not for fighting Sentinel either. Those are important matches.
>>
>> Cyclops is tons better against Iceman and Strider, who are also
>> important opponent...
>
>I think you may overrate Iceman a bit... and while Cyclops is undeniably good,
>Commando is better to have against the more important matches of Doom, Sentinel,
>and runaway Cable... it's not like he's terrible against Strider and
>anyone else,
>anyway.
Iceman is good because he faces very favorable matchups in this game. He
is GOOD. trust me. Way better than Capcom, to say the least. Capcom
sucks against Strider (the best mobile character) either as main character
or assist, his AAA gets clearly beaten by Doom's AAA.
>> and Cyclops can battle against Doom and Sentinel to
>> some degree, something which Capcom cannot hope to do.
>
>While Cyclops is a stronger point character, Commando is not hopeless in those
>fights. Doom can't play keepaway with photons because of corridor into captain
>sword, and Sentinel is a big target for that same combo also. Of course,
>it doesn't
>look good for Commando, but it isn't hopeless.
Sentinel can destroy him on the ground with utmost ease. Doom may not be
able to do too risky stuff against Capcom, but Capcom can't do anything
agianst him, either.
>> >> >> Capcom flat out dies to many top characters.
>> >> >
>> >> >And so do the vast majority of the other characters.
>> >>
>> >> And That justifies putting Capcom in top ten? Because he gets incinerated
>> >> just like majority of other characters?
>> >
>> >Where did you get that idea? I said nothing like that. Commando's
>> >justification for being in the top ten is that he's one of the top ten
>> >characters, of course. It does seem like he doesn't belong in the company of
>> >characters like Cable and Doom, but look at the other characters that are
>> >competing for that "barely in top 10" spot. Who else is better? Ken? Magneto?
>> >Akuma? Silver Samurai? The fact is, he is better than most of the characters
>> >in the game.
>>
>> Read the above quote.
>
>I'm afraid I don't know what you mean by this.
I said Capcom dies to real top characters. you said that applies for the
majority of characters. So how does this still justify Capcom being on
top tier, he needs to do better than the rest of the crowd.
>> Choc, nothing against you personal, but I don't think your experience with
>> MvC2 is that deep.
>
>I don't want to get into a ridiculous argument of "you're not good" "yes I am"
>which will lead nowhere... I'll just say that I disagree with your
>statement. I am
>the best player in Virginia (the second best state for SF on the east coast) and
>have won a few tournaments. This is in no way meant to be bragging, or even a
>statement that I'm anything special in MVC2... the competition absolutely sucks,
>and I know that dozens of west coast players could beat me with their
>eyes closed
>or whatever... what I'm trying to say is though, I'm no newbie to Marvel
>or to this
>game in particular.
This is not "I'm better than you" game. I went to Midwest tourney. I saw
good people play. I learned a lot. And linking my experiences with your
post, I think your MvsC2 play is not mature enough to really see my point
of the arguement. There were Capcoms in the tourney. people who used
them were good, they knew how to use him and what to do with him. Once
the goings started to go tough, they all abandoned him. See the top
teams. Nobody has Capcom there anymore. So how is it still justified
that Capcom is top ten while Iceman/Cyclops/Juggernaut/Strider, who does
get played in top teams are not?
>> For one thing, you are over estimating Capcom's AAA,
>> when by now, many people have found ways around it or better solutions
>> compared to it.
>
>I don't think I am overestimating it.
You said it's one of the best assist in the game. That sounds like
overestimation, especially now when people are not even playing him
anymore.
>> People were raving about how good Capcom's AAA is about a
>> month and a half ago (and this was before Strider became big), and you may
>> be in a similiar phase right now.
>
>This is not like a month or two ago when his assist would be almost a guaranteed
>hit, when no one had gotten used to a big move suddenly appearing on the screen
>with little warning, when no one had thought that playing in a style
>with the goal
>to avoid the assist was something that you could do. I know how the game
>works. But
>the fact of the matter is that it's simply a great move. It's almost as good for
>ground based fighting as the assists such as Cammy, and it's much better
>than those
>assists against an opponent who is trying to keep away from you. It's
>not the best
>thing in the game, it's not BS by any stretch of the mind, but it does
>help him to
>become an overall more useful character than someone like Iceman.
You underestimate Iceman, and overestimate Capcom. Not only Capcom has
low priority and slow speed (it WILL lose just about any AAA clash, and
capcom will get hit by pixies attacks before he can pull his corridor
off). Iceman may be less versitile than Capcom (this is just a
hypothetical statement. I don't think Capcom is versitile at all), but
the pure chance of him having a favorable matchup helps him greatly.
--
Chocobo
Iceman is not unquestionably better than Commando, if he were then I wouldn't be
questioning it. His offense is so limited and his assists are weak. Cammy is a
possibility... Storm probably is better. At any rate, we both put him in the same
general area of rankings.
>
> >> >> >> Capcom flat out dies to many top characters.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >And so do the vast majority of the other characters.
> >> >>
> >> >> And That justifies putting Capcom in top ten? Because he gets incinerated
> >> >> just like majority of other characters?
> >> >
> >> >Where did you get that idea? I said nothing like that. Commando's
> >> >justification for being in the top ten is that he's one of the top ten
> >> >characters, of course. It does seem like he doesn't belong in the company of
> >> >characters like Cable and Doom, but look at the other characters that are
> >> >competing for that "barely in top 10" spot. Who else is better? Ken? Magneto?
> >> >Akuma? Silver Samurai? The fact is, he is better than most of the characters
> >> >in the game.
> >>
> >> Read the above quote.
> >
> >I'm afraid I don't know what you mean by this.
>
> I said Capcom dies to real top characters. you said that applies for the
> majority of characters. So how does this still justify Capcom being on
> top tier, he needs to do better than the rest of the crowd.
Do you think Blackheart is one of the top characters?
>
> >> Choc, nothing against you personal, but I don't think your experience with
> >> MvC2 is that deep.
> >
> >I don't want to get into a ridiculous argument of "you're not good" "yes I am"
> >which will lead nowhere... I'll just say that I disagree with your
> >statement. I am
> >the best player in Virginia (the second best state for SF on the east coast) and
> >have won a few tournaments. This is in no way meant to be bragging, or even a
> >statement that I'm anything special in MVC2... the competition absolutely sucks,
> >and I know that dozens of west coast players could beat me with their
> >eyes closed
> >or whatever... what I'm trying to say is though, I'm no newbie to Marvel
> >or to this
> >game in particular.
>
> This is not "I'm better than you" game. I went to Midwest tourney. I saw
> good people play. I learned a lot. And linking my experiences with your
> post, I think your MvsC2 play is not mature enough to really see my point
> of the arguement. There were Capcoms in the tourney. people who used
> them were good, they knew how to use him and what to do with him. Once
> the goings started to go tough, they all abandoned him. See the top
> teams. Nobody has Capcom there anymore. So how is it still justified
> that Capcom is top ten while Iceman/Cyclops/Juggernaut/Strider, who does
> get played in top teams are not?
Who's using Iceman for top level tournament play? I never disputed anything with
Cyclops or Juggernaut. A character's tournament popularity really isn't a valid way
to prove who's better, anyway. And, as a character right around 10th place, that
means there are 9 better choices... so of course he won't be in every match.
> >> For one thing, you are over estimating Capcom's AAA,
> >> when by now, many people have found ways around it or better solutions
> >> compared to it.
> >
> >I don't think I am overestimating it.
>
> You said it's one of the best assist in the game. That sounds like overestimation,
> especially now when people are not even playing him anymore.
That's overestimation? What's better? There's Cyclops, Doom, Blackheart I guess, Ken,
maybe Psylocke or Cammy... possibly Juggernaut punch... and some of those are
questionable. It's a good priority attack, and the range (especially the vertical
range) is unmatched by any other. Top 5 out of 168 counts as "one of the best" in my
opinion.
> You underestimate Iceman, and overestimate Capcom. Not only Capcom has
> low priority and slow speed (it WILL lose just about any AAA clash, and
> capcom will get hit by pixies attacks before he can pull his corridor
> off). Iceman may be less versitile than Capcom (this is just a
> hypothetical statement. I don't think Capcom is versitile at all), but
> the pure chance of him having a favorable matchup helps him greatly.
Who does Iceman have a favorable match against? Remember, Commando's assist is much
better, and I'm talking about overall usefulness here, not one on one fights.
max_mo...@my-deja.com
Spider-Dan <spid...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Here's my thoughts on the rankings, in approximate order:
>
> Top tier (dominating primary characters):
>
> Doom
> Cable
> Spiral
> Sentinel
> Strider
>
> Second tier (effective primary characters, and/or excellent
> assist):
>
> Blackheart
> Storm
> Cyclops
> Magneto
> Juggernaut
> Omega Red
> Iceman
> Commando
> Cammy
>
Fluffy
No. Big difference here. Cammy is the anti-Cable. Lock-on super will
go through AHVB so long as you don't get hit beforehand.
She also has a way better assist. AAA is completely invincible on the
way up. It will even go through Doom's Photon Array to hit him. It
reeks havoc on dashers, jumpers, super-jumpers, you name it, AAA will
probably stop it. BTW, it won't stop Ken's AAA, but both will go
through eachother. I tested it.
Cammy also has a faster dash than psylocke. Cammy can cover
slightly more ground. Also, IMO Psylocke doesn't have the damage
potential that Cammy has. Cammy's Lock-on AC, when done correctly, does
massive damage, nearly 60%. I can't really seem to break the 50%
barrier with Psylocke, at least with only one super.
--
Fluffy
tortoise
>Iceman is not unquestionably better than Commando, if he were
then I
wouldn't be
>questioning it. His offense is so limited and his assists are
weak.
Cammy is a
>possibility... Storm probably is better. At any rate, we both
put him in the
same
>general area of rankings.
I just don't see it at all. Storm isn't "probably" better, she's
way better. Like most top tier characters she can hose
your opponent's assisters and make using her own
assisters very safe (truly being able to screw assisters
easily and reliable is not a common ability, not even Doom
can do that.) She's incredibly versatile, has
priority, some keepaway, and is a great counter
character to almost the entire top tier.
And again, there's noway CapCom's assist alone
is making him this good. That's like saying Gief
is middle tier due to his lariat assist (which is
a lot better than Corridor, especially if Gief has
gone mega.)
Stilt Man
>In article <0130e1ec...@usw-ex0106-046.remarq.com>,
> Spider-Dan <spid...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>> Here's my thoughts on the rankings, in approximate order:
[lots of folks mentioned but not...]
>What about Psylocke. IMO Psylocke is basically Cammy with a projectile.
Not really. I believe he's probably ranking Cammy in here due to the cannon
spike. Although Psylocke's psi-blade is a very good assist (and, arguably,
merits her mention for that) it's only particularly effective near the ground,
whereas the spike doesn't lose much of its effectiveness at fairly high
altitudes -- unless you're flat out going off the screen or close to it,
Cammy can still reach you. For Psylocke, er... no. :)
Even as a primary char, I'd still put Cammy ahead of Psylocke, on simple
damage infliction and speed alone. Psylocke's dash isn't quite as fast
as Cammy's and her big combos don't hurt as much as Cammy's.
I'd put either one of them ahead of Spidey, either Wolvie, Marrow, Jill,
Hayato, or the other pixies. Maybe even Strider -- Strider's a little
more effective up front than Psylocke or Cammy, but not (IMO) by enough
that he really warrants all the hoopla... and none of his assists are
anywhere near in either Psylocke or Cammy's league. I'm not sold that
Strider in front is more powerful than Psylocke _or_ Cammy in back, because
either of them being back there makes his teleport-and-hit game FAR less
effective -- e.g. Magneto/Psylocke and two meters can kill Strider outright
or close to it with just a single clean hit from Psylocke's AAA, and just
a single smack from Cammy sets Strider back a lot more than an Ouro/rocks
meter will answer for.
Stilt Man
>In article <8l3gf1$204$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> max_mo...@my-deja.com wrote:
>> What about Psylocke. IMO Psylocke is basically Cammy with a projectile.
>No. Big difference here. Cammy is the anti-Cable. Lock-on super will
>go through AHVB so long as you don't get hit beforehand.
All right, while I agree with you that Cammy is better than Psylocke (and
the MaxCam is indeed one of the reasons that I forgot in the other article)
this is _not_ a reason I'd give for it.
The MaxCam will indeed go through the AHVB... but you've got all of one
frame of startup before you have to have already executed it, which means
that unless you anticipate that it'll hit, you're going to bounce off of
him harmlessly and leave him a huge opening to bake you.
Cammy's effectiveness against Cable has more to do with her speed than anything
else. The MaxCam works well against AMOB, photon array, and other things
that give you scads of warning, but trying to use it against someone's AHVB
is pretty suicidal -- more so if they bring up an assist before they throw
it, which will cause Cammy to bounce a single hit off of the helper before
Cable bakes her.
>Cammy also has a faster dash than psylocke. Cammy can cover
>slightly more ground. Also, IMO Psylocke doesn't have the damage
>potential that Cammy has. Cammy's Lock-on AC, when done correctly, does
>massive damage, nearly 60%. I can't really seem to break the 50%
>barrier with Psylocke, at least with only one super.
That's on a machine with setting 3 -- at setting 2 it's closer to 45-50%
for Cammy against most chars. You're right, though, that Cammy does do
more damage than Psylocke.
Stilt Man
tortoise <mgreerN...@artic.edu.invalid> wrote:
>Chocobo <cho...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>Iceman is not unquestionably better than Commando, if he were then I
>>wouldn't be questioning it. His offense is so limited and his assists are
>>weak. Cammy is a possibility... Storm probably is better. At any rate,
>>we both put him in the same general area of rankings.
>I just don't see it at all. Storm isn't "probably" better, she's
>way better. Like most top tier characters she can hose
>your opponent's assisters and make using her own
>assisters very safe (truly being able to screw assisters
>easily and reliable is not a common ability, not even Doom
>can do that.)
Well, basically only Cable, Ryu, Morrigan, Sentinel, Storm, and maybe a few
other beam supers that I'm forgetting can easily and reliably punish helpers.
Cyclops sort of can, except that he can't pin down a main char at the same
time.
And while I'll agree that Storm is good, I'm not prepared to say that she
is one of the utter best in the game. The main thing she can do that others
can't is to hang out in the stratosphere and kill the clock, which in itself
only works when the other person doesn't have either Blackheart or (to a
lesser degree) CapCom on their team.
I'd say Iceman is better than Commando. The ice beam is one of the better
assists in the game, and the ability to ignore the block damage of 90% of
the chars in the game if they don't have rocks in their pocket is nothing
to sneeze at.
>And again, there's noway CapCom's assist alone
>is making him this good. That's like saying Gief
>is middle tier due to his lariat assist (which is
>a lot better than Corridor, especially if Gief has
>gone mega.)
I don't agree with _that_ at all. Sure, the lariat's not exactly defective
but if you want altitude help, CapCom's corridor is easily in the top three
(though I'd put Blackheart on top and I'd say that Cammy gives him a run for
his money). There's no position on the screen where you can say that Zangief's
lariat is one of the best three assists available.
AK
: In article <0848f5f0...@usw-ex0101-008.remarq.com>,: >>Iceman is not unquestionably better than Commando, if he were then I
: >>wouldn't be questioning it. His offense is so limited and his assists are
: >>weak. Cammy is a possibility... Storm probably is better. At any rate,
: >>we both put him in the same general area of rankings.
: >I just don't see it at all. Storm isn't "probably" better, she's
: >way better. Like most top tier characters she can hose
: >your opponent's assisters and make using her own
: >assisters very safe (truly being able to screw assisters
: >easily and reliable is not a common ability, not even Doom
: >can do that.)
: Well, basically only Cable, Ryu, Morrigan, Sentinel, Storm, and maybe a few
: other beam supers that I'm forgetting can easily and reliably punish helpers.
: Cyclops sort of can, except that he can't pin down a main char at the same
: time.
Blackheart(inferno XXHOD if assist is near opponent), Felicia (kick super),
Doom (qcf+pp), i think Dhalsim (qcf+pp)... cyclops qcf+kk will force a
grounded opponent to block and goes through your main character (jab
optic blast XX SOB is one of the best ways to destroy assists using Cyc).
: And while I'll agree that Storm is good, I'm not prepared to say that she
: is one of the utter best in the game. The main thing she can do that others
: can't is to hang out in the stratosphere and kill the clock, which in itself
: only works when the other person doesn't have either Blackheart or (to a
: lesser degree) CapCom on their team.
I don't even think her main strength is there. She threatens the air
attackers with Hail Storm and her lightning attack is a better omega
strike. Her AC
takes 50% and she can easily link it off a tag in. And her fierce
attacks are crazy annoying. They trade hits with the most ridiculously
powerful attacks. I think her strength is in her unpunishable lightning
attack. You end up getting forced to anticipate it, otherwise you pay real
bad for it. Let's Storm set tempo. In addition, her alpha assist is
turning out to be one of the better assists in the game (easily top 10 IMO).
--
AK
tortoise
>And while I'll agree that Storm is good, I'm not prepared to
say that she
>is one of the utter best in the game.
The argument at hand is whether she's better than
Commando. Not if she's top tier.
>I don't agree with _that_ at all. Sure, the lariat's not
exactly defective
>but if you want altitude help, CapCom's corridor is easily in
the top
three
Why would I even consider the lariat for aerial help?
I was saying in general the Lariat has more uses
than Corridor. If I'm gonna play someone and I have
no idea who they've picked, and going on assist alone,
I'd take lariat over corridor.
>There's no position on the screen where you can say that
Zangief's
>lariat is one of the best three assists available.
After you've metallicized Gief, Lariat is /the/ best
anti-air in the game. "Anti-air" in the traditional sense of
stopping a jump in attack. Only another Mega Gief or
armored Colossus can get through it. It also sets up
combos/supers better than Akuma, and can get you
out of tight situations unlike other assists simply because
Gief does the lariat no matter what (assuming the point
character doesn't get hit on Gief's way in.)
If metal Lariat had a true weakness it's that it's not so handy
against keepaway, which dominates this game. But neither
is Corridor.
tortoise
>Doom's rocks
best overall assist in the game IMO.
>Spiral's punch
I dunno about this one. No range, no block
damage at all, other "super setup assists"
are much better. I think people take Gamma
spiral for her A1+A2 super and the fact that
Spiral is good in general, not for her assist.
>Storm's hurricane
underrated assist.
>Sentinel's Drones
what's so special about this? For general
screwing people up Doom's Rocks are
better, for fast damage beams are better.
It homes a bit, sure, but I just don't see
this amongst the best assists in the game.
>M.Zanfief AAA (he sucks, but talking just for assists)
>Spiderman web
I dunno, not that great IMO. I'm
usually leary of assists that have
little to no effect on opposing assisters.
>Ironman/Warmachine AAA (Combo galore)
woah, where did this come from? :)
>Juggernaut's Earthquake (Alpha counter into headcrush)
jug.punch is better all around for the most
part. Earthquake is safer for juggs but again
isn't the greatest super setting assist. Also
super cancelling out of earthquake is
harder than jug.punch.
[iceman]
>and he has one of the
>safest chipping damage super
it only chips for anything worthwhile from
upclose. From far away you'll get one pixel
of block damage if you're lucky.
sol t kim
Now I remember Magnito and Omega Red...more to come, although I'm not
personally sure that these characters are better
>> I said I'm sure I've forgotten someone, and I still am. Capcom barely
>> makes top 15, if that. Iceman/Cammy/Storm are not "might possibly be
>> better" they ARE unquestionably better than Capcom.
>
>Iceman is not unquestionably better than Commando, if he were then I wouldn't be
>questioning it. His offense is so limited and his assists are weak. Cammy is a
>possibility... Storm probably is better. At any rate, we both put him in
>the same
>general area of rankings.
Chocobo, though, it a tough world out there in MvC2. Since it is
generally agreed upon fact that the only reason to play Capcom is to use
his AAA, and that he dies horribly as main character and, on top of that
his AAA, although one of the best, is not considered to be THE best
(cyclops/Cammie wins out), there is no reason to pick him over others
whose AAA is AS good, if not better, than Capcom AND who fight better or
otherwise have other contribution (meter building,etc). Again, in MvC2,
teams with members who have specialized contribution seems to dominate
(for example meterbuilder/Damage/Anti-air or
beamkiller/pixiekiller/giantkiller), there is no reason to settle for
no.2.
>Do you think Blackheart is one of the top characters?
I think we have yet to learn more about him...but I'm certain that he's
better than Capcom, from what I've seen.
>Who's using Iceman for top level tournament play?
pretty frequently, actually. may sound childish, but lot more frequent
than Capcom (who saw less play then any other AAA characters, even Rogue
with grab assist)
>I never disputed anything with
>Cyclops or Juggernaut. A character's tournament popularity really isn't
>a valid way
>to prove who's better,
Yes it is. People there know the game and are playing to win. A
characters' popularity in a local arcade is the one that is invalid.
>anyway. And, as a character right around 10th place, that
>means there are 9 better choices... so of course he won't be in every match.
That means he will see almost no play, since there are better AAA
character of choice to pick over him, and he's only good for his AAA.
>That's overestimation? What's better? There's Cyclops, Doom, Blackheart
>I guess, Ken,
>maybe Psylocke or Cammy... possibly Juggernaut punch... and some of those are
>questionable. It's a good priority attack, and the range (especially the
>vertical
>range) is unmatched by any other. Top 5 out of 168 counts as "one of the
>best" in my
>opinion.
I can bring up the list of assists better than Capcom...off the top of my
head...Jag punch isn't considered to be that good, BTW...
Doom's rocks
Spiral's punch
Blackheart AAA
Cyclops AAA
Storm's hurricane
Sentinel's Drones
M.Zanfief AAA (he sucks, but talking just for assists)
Spiderman web
Ironman/Warmachine AAA (Combo galore)
Juggernaut's Earthquake (Alpha counter into headcrush)
and blahblahblah.
>> You underestimate Iceman, and overestimate Capcom. Not only Capcom has
>> low priority and slow speed (it WILL lose just about any AAA clash, and
>> capcom will get hit by pixies attacks before he can pull his corridor
>> off). Iceman may be less versitile than Capcom (this is just a
>> hypothetical statement. I don't think Capcom is versitile at all), but
>> the pure chance of him having a favorable matchup helps him greatly.
>
>Who does Iceman have a favorable match against? Remember, Commando's
>assist is much
>better, and I'm talking about overall usefulness here, not one on one fights.
Icebeam is one of the best beam assist, much like Capcom's is one of the
best AAA. Take it for what you will, nobody picks Iceman just for his
Assist, unlike Capcom.
The game is consisted of 56 characters. Out of these, only around
15 characters will ever see serious play (Including Capcom). Against
Majority of these 15 characters, Iceman's blockdamage advantage is a great
asset to have. If he is ahead, he can laugh at some of the most
overpowered teams (Doom/BH, Cable/Cyclops) He can play keepaway or
pixie depending on how the situation demands it, and he has one of the
safest chipping damage super (convinient for switching in-you opponent
just brought in Cable against your Storm? Lightning super into Artic
attack) Try doing that with Capcom: Cap in-Pzzzzt-Cap out. Iceman as a
main character is just plain better than Capcom as a main character...
--
Rick Carroll
>or Strider for that matter.
I'm not saying that she beats them out right, I am just saying she can hold her
own better than many other characters, although I would take Felicia when I am
playing against a Sentinel any day. Litterbox kick super takes away his drone
fleet->standing fierce->assist->repeat trap, and her "help me" super does track
high enough to knock him out of flight, try it and see, as long as he isn't at
the very top of the screen, it will hit. As for Strider and Doom, I mainly was
referring to her ability to limit the Strider/Doom traps with her litterbox
kick super by supering as soon as Doom begins to appear. Also a lot of people
get into very distinguishable patterns when playing Strider and Doom and you
can tell what they are going to do next so simply super before they get their
trap started. In both of these situations, it forces the fight to a closer up
battle where Felicia is at her best and gives her a legitimate chance to win.
AK
: sol...@midway.uchicago.edu (sol t kim) wrote:
: >Doom's rocks
: best overall assist in the game IMO.
That or BH, all dependent on the point character.
: >Spiral's punch
: I dunno about this one. No range, no block
: damage at all, other "super setup assists"
: are much better. I think people take Gamma
: spiral for her A1+A2 super and the fact that
: Spiral is good in general, not for her assist.
I would take her alpha assist anyday. First of all, unless you have
Juggernaut, a1+a2 doesn't come up much in tourney play. Spiral's a1+a2
doing the manual metamorph usually stops comboing midway so the other
player can block (if she's not point character? I've seen it stop
comboing even if she *is* point). Also, the alpha assist is hard to
stop. Most fireballs don't knock out the whole set of knives circle and
don't have the vertical coverage/time endurance to knock them all out.
Her alpha is just 1 big fireball that's hard to avoid and does decent chip.
As stated, gamma does no chip damage and builds the combo meter too high
to allow any further hits to do any appreciable damage.
: >Storm's hurricane
: underrated assist.
If this is gamma, I would say that alpha is a much better choice. Sure
her a1+a2 turns into lightning instead of hail storm, but again, a1+a2
isn't all used. Gamma has too much load time in comparison to alpha, but
both have the same effect of knocking out whatever the opponent is
doing. Gamma is too easy to sidestep unless you're on top of your opponent.
: >Sentinel's Drones
: what's so special about this? For general
: screwing people up Doom's Rocks are
: better, for fast damage beams are better.
: It homes a bit, sure, but I just don't see
: this amongst the best assists in the game.
Kinda like Storm alpha, cept that it's real hard to knock Sentinel out of
it. It's more than likely to come out no matter what, just that the
drones can be stopped.
: >M.Zanfief AAA (he sucks, but talking just for assists)
: >Spiderman web
: I dunno, not that great IMO. I'm
: usually leary of assists that have
: little to no effect on opposing assisters.
Yeah, only particularly useful for pixies IMO.
: >Ironman/Warmachine AAA (Combo galore)
: woah, where did this come from? :)
High damage and they pop you up. Like REALLY high damage.
: >Juggernaut's Earthquake (Alpha counter into headcrush)
: jug.punch is better all around for the most
: part. Earthquake is safer for juggs but again
: isn't the greatest super setting assist. Also
: super cancelling out of earthquake is
: harder than jug.punch.
That's why he's saying to choose alpha assist, so that you can cancel out
of jug. punch and not earthquake when you do alpha counter.
--
AK
Chocobo
> In article <39753DCB...@mindspring.com>,
> Chocobo <cho...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >sol t kim wrote:
>
> >> >Before, you said that Commando doesn't even come close to being in the
> >> >top 10. And
> >> >now with this list, you fill it with "they might possibly be better, maybe"
> >> >characters like Iceman, Cammy, and Storm. It appears that we do sort of
> >> >agree just
> >> >about where Commando belongs, after all. Before, you acted so
> >surprised that I
> >> >could even suggest that Commando is top 10, and you put him at 12 yourself.
>
> Now I remember Magnito and Omega Red...more to come, although I'm not
> personally sure that these characters are better
I admit, I haven't seen a good Omega Red. If he were so good I think I would have
heard more about him aside from Duc using him as a battery for Cable, but I won't
pass judgement until I know what I'm talking about. Now Magneto, he's just not as
good, plain and simple. His assists suck, I believe he has a damage handicap, and he
can't do much damage since all tempest combos are escapable.
> >> I said I'm sure I've forgotten someone, and I still am. Capcom barely
> >> makes top 15, if that. Iceman/Cammy/Storm are not "might possibly be
> >> better" they ARE unquestionably better than Capcom.
> >
> >Iceman is not unquestionably better than Commando, if he were then I wouldn't be
> >questioning it. His offense is so limited and his assists are weak. Cammy is a
> >possibility... Storm probably is better. At any rate, we both put him in
> >the same
> >general area of rankings.
>
> Chocobo, though, it a tough world out there in MvC2. Since it is
> generally agreed upon fact that the only reason to play Capcom is to use
> his AAA, and that he dies horribly as main character and, on top of that
> his AAA, although one of the best, is not considered to be THE best
> (cyclops/Cammie wins out), there is no reason to pick him over others
> whose AAA is AS good, if not better, than Capcom AND who fight better or
> otherwise have other contribution (meter building,etc).
I completely agree with the above statement. Characters with the combination of a
better assist and better fighting ability should be ranked above Commando. This
includes Cyclops and possibly Cammy.
> >I never disputed anything with
> >Cyclops or Juggernaut. A character's tournament popularity really isn't
> >a valid way
> >to prove who's better,
>
> Yes it is. People there know the game and are playing to win.
wtf? Since when did popularity mean anything? Last tournament I was at, there were
more Trons than Sentinels. I guess that means she's better?
> A characters' popularity in a local arcade is the one that is invalid.
Uh, ok. The sky is also blue, by the way.
> >anyway. And, as a character right around 10th place, that
> >means there are 9 better choices... so of course he won't be in every match.
>
> That means he will see almost no play, since there are better AAA
> character of choice to pick over him, and he's only good for his AAA.
So what? MVC2 is a game that focuses on the very top group of characters, of course
weaker characters will be picked less often.
> I can bring up the list of assists better than Capcom...off the top of my
> head...Jag punch isn't considered to be that good, BTW...
>
> Spiral's punch
> Sentinel's Drones
> M.Zanfief AAA (he sucks, but talking just for assists)
> Spiderman web
> Ironman/Warmachine AAA (Combo galore)
> Juggernaut's Earthquake (Alpha counter into headcrush)
You've got to be kidding. Spiral's punch isn't bad, but it's not nearly as useful as
Commando... Sentinel's drones kinda suck... Gief AAA is arguable... Spiderman web
sucks, Ironman AAA has some pretty bad priority, and earthquake sucks. Why would you
pick earthquake over 30% damage jug punch?
>
> and blahblahblah.
>
Very convincing.
Chocobo
> In article <8l3jn5$49n$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Fluffy <loyd...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >In article <8l3gf1$204$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > max_mo...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >> What about Psylocke. IMO Psylocke is basically Cammy with a projectile.
>
> >No. Big difference here. Cammy is the anti-Cable. Lock-on super will
> >go through AHVB so long as you don't get hit beforehand.
>
> All right, while I agree with you that Cammy is better than Psylocke (and
> the MaxCam is indeed one of the reasons that I forgot in the other article)
> this is _not_ a reason I'd give for it.
>
> The MaxCam will indeed go through the AHVB... but you've got all of one
> frame of startup before you have to have already executed it, which means
> that unless you anticipate that it'll hit, you're going to bounce off of
> him harmlessly and leave him a huge opening to bake you.
You don't just use the maximum Cammy whenever you think something might happen, as
she's dead meat if it ever gets blocked. You only do it when you see the AHVB (or
any other super) starting up, just like with Spiral's teleport.
> Cammy's effectiveness against Cable has more to do with her speed than anything
> else. The MaxCam works well against AMOB, photon array, and other things
> that give you scads of warning, but trying to use it against someone's AHVB
> is pretty suicidal -- more so if they bring up an assist before they throw
> it, which will cause Cammy to bounce a single hit off of the helper before
> Cable bakes her.
Cammy is good against Cable mostly because Cable can't AHVB. So the match turns
into Cammy + assist against Cable (with no AHVB) + assist... this is definitely in
Cammy's favor. Cammy bouncing off of the assist happens rarely.
>
> >Cammy also has a faster dash than psylocke. Cammy can cover
> >slightly more ground. Also, IMO Psylocke doesn't have the damage
> >potential that Cammy has. Cammy's Lock-on AC, when done correctly, does
> >massive damage, nearly 60%. I can't really seem to break the 50%
> >barrier with Psylocke, at least with only one super.
>
> That's on a machine with setting 3 -- at setting 2 it's closer to 45-50%
> for Cammy against most chars. You're right, though, that Cammy does do
> more damage than Psylocke.
Psylocke does very little damage, and in general is much weaker than Cammy. Her
assist is good for setting up an AHVB or Magneto combo, but other than that,
there's always someone who can do the same stuff better.
Spider-Dan
>stil...@user2.teleport.com (Stilt Man) wrote:
>
>>And while I'll agree that Storm is good, I'm not prepared to
>say that she
>>is one of the utter best in the game.
>
>The argument at hand is whether she's better than
>Commando. Not if she's top tier.
>
>>I don't agree with _that_ at all. Sure, the lariat's not
>exactly defective
>>but if you want altitude help, CapCom's corridor is easily in
>the top
>three
>
>Why would I even consider the lariat for aerial help?
>I was saying in general the Lariat has more uses
>than Corridor. If I'm gonna play someone and I have
>no idea who they've picked, and going on assist alone,
>I'd take lariat over corridor.
I will blindly pick Commando over Zangief every time. I think
Commando's usefulness as a primary is being seriously
underrepresented here. He has pretty good helper punishing
(sword) and decent keepaway.
>>There's no position on the screen where you can say that
>Zangief's
>>lariat is one of the best three assists available.
>
>After you've metallicized Gief, Lariat is /the/ best
>anti-air in the game. "Anti-air" in the traditional sense of
>stopping a jump in attack.
No, it is not. It simply will beat or trade with everything.
That does not make it anywhere near the best, since many
characters can jump in with things other than physical attacks,
and even if they jump in with nothing, MZ is highly vulnerable
while on screen (ever see MZ assist get hit by a double hail
storm?)
If you need real anti-air (given that 90% of the real air
attacking in this game is done at a height far above where
Zangief is even remotely effective) Commando is one of the best.
>If metal Lariat had a true weakness it's that it's not so handy
>against keepaway, which dominates this game. But neither
>is Corridor.
Corridor is the single best anti *keepaway* assist in the game;
it's failing is against rushing. You cannot call any sort of
keepaway ground assist vs Commando AAA (I tested this.... with
Doom in corner, if he calls BH assist and SJs, you can stand
directly underneath the end of *your* assists lifebars,
approximately 2/3rd screen away, and hit the BH assist cleanly
with Commando AAA). Commando AAA has exorbitant ground range and
infinite vertical range.
Commando is not the AAA of choice on a keepaway team because his
priority is so low (so he can't effectively remove the opponent
from you), but he is EXTREMELY effective as a helper to an
offensive team, where you aren't particularly worrying about
priority of AAA (even the highest priority AAAs get blasted if
you can bait them into calling their AAA before you). Commando
AAA is infinitely more useful than the higher priority AAAs
against characters like Storm or Blackheart.
--
Dan Thompson
[send email to] edge [at] chipware [dot] net
Stilt Man
Spider-Dan <spid...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>Corridor is the single best anti *keepaway* assist in the game;
>it's failing is against rushing.
I'm not a huge fan of the corridor. Everyone knows that who's been paying
attention to this board in recent months.
That said, I agree to a fair degree with this statement. I think BH gives
CapCom an argument on anti-keepaway power (if you stick a mobile rusher of
some form in front of Doom/BH, you're basically set for life against virtually
anyone) but even I don't deny that there are a lot of elements of keepaway
that CapCom is simply one of the best at stopping. Altitude being the first
one, but ground assists being another big one, and simple damage per hit is
also good.
For my own personal tastes, I think that Cammy and BH are both better than
CapCom. However, even though I don't personally like CapCom much for my
own style of play, and I don't personally think he's the best at much of
anything, I am not going to say that he still isn't good enough that I'd
consider someone a poor player because their style fits him in better than
mine does, and I'm sure as hell not going to immediately laugh someone off
when I see them bring CapCom's AAA to the table. If I see CapCom getting
picked, I'm immediately paying attention to how they're selecting their
team and thinking brief but good and hard about what I'm going to do about
it. There aren't all that many assists that get that reaction from me.
(e.g. if I see someone picking a shoto and taking projectile help, I start
hearing Nazrac in the back of my mind, "Challenge BAKED..." Kudos to any
get-a-lifer who can correctly identify the origins of _that_... ;)
sol t kim
Chocobo <cho...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> >Cyclops or Juggernaut. A character's tournament popularity really isn't
>> >a valid way
>> >to prove who's better,
>>
>> Yes it is. People there know the game and are playing to win.
>
>there were
>more Trons than Sentinels. I guess that means she's better?
What tournament were you in? I don't mean Janderson's Family Reunion
Tournament, the tournament I was in, and was refering to, was Chicago
2000, with John Choi/Eddie Lee/Valle, etc.
>> A characters' popularity in a local arcade is the one that is invalid.
>
>Uh, ok. The sky is also blue, by the way.
And your sarcasm weak.
>So what? MVC2 is a game that focuses on the very top group of
>characters, of course
>weaker characters will be picked less often.
The whole point is, one can reasonably, then, rank a character on how
often he gets picked in the top level of play. Extending that logic,
Capcom does not get played as often in the top circles as many other
characters that are not even mentioned yet, such as Rogue/War
Machine/psylocke or Spiderman, which would indicate that your ranking of
Capcom in top ten is very shaky.
>> Spiral's punch
>> Sentinel's Drones
>> M.Zanfief AAA (he sucks, but talking just for assists)
>> Spiderman web
>> Ironman/Warmachine AAA (Combo galore)
>> Juggernaut's Earthquake (Alpha counter into headcrush)
>
>You've got to be kidding. Spiral's punch isn't bad, but it's not nearly
>as useful as
>Commando... Sentinel's drones kinda suck... Gief AAA is arguable...
Spiral's punches are Doom's rocks, minus the block damage. You can do
whatever you want for full 1.5 seconds. Sentinel's drones are almost like
doom's.
>Spiderman web
>sucks, Ironman AAA has some pretty bad priority, and earthquake sucks.
>Why would you
>pick earthquake over 30% damage jug punch?
Ironman/WM AAA:you can combo any beam supers you want afterwards.
Better pressure weapon, jug is less exposed before and after the excution
and you can combo stuff when it hits, not to mention more chip damage.
>Very convincing.
Well, excuse me for getting tired of this thread, talking to someone who
just wouldn't listen.
--
Chocobo
> In article <3976FD78...@mindspring.com>,
> Chocobo <cho...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >> >Cyclops or Juggernaut. A character's tournament popularity really isn't
> >> >a valid way
> >> >to prove who's better,
> >>
> >> Yes it is. People there know the game and are playing to win.
> >
> >wtf? Since when did popularity mean anything? Last tournament I was at,
> >there were
> >more Trons than Sentinels. I guess that means she's better?
>
> What tournament were you in? I don't mean Janderson's Family Reunion
> Tournament, the tournament I was in, and was refering to, was Chicago
> 2000, with John Choi/Eddie Lee/Valle, etc.
But, you said popularity of a character was important, I'm all confused now. I
guess you meant "popularity of a character in certain tournaments that support
my argument". This is all meaningless... popularity means nothing. Sakura may
end up being the #1 character is this game just like GWM was at the top of
MVC1, but neither of them were used in early tournaments.
> >> A characters' popularity in a local arcade is the one that is invalid.
> >
> >Uh, ok. The sky is also blue, by the way.
>
> And your sarcasm weak.
Yes, but at least you got the point, which is all that matters.
> >> Spiral's punch
> >> Sentinel's Drones
> >> M.Zanfief AAA (he sucks, but talking just for assists)
> >> Spiderman web
> >> Ironman/Warmachine AAA (Combo galore)
> >> Juggernaut's Earthquake (Alpha counter into headcrush)
> >
> >You've got to be kidding. Spiral's punch isn't bad, but it's not nearly
> >as useful as
> >Commando... Sentinel's drones kinda suck... Gief AAA is arguable...
>
> Spiral's punches are Doom's rocks, minus the block damage. You can do
> whatever you want for full 1.5 seconds. Sentinel's drones are almost like
> doom's.
Those aren't really the same at all. Doom's rocks go all over the screen and
can stop most of the supers in the game, including the Juggernaut Headcrush,
plus they do a ton of block damage. Comparing Sentinel's drones to Doom's rocks
is like comparing a regular optic blast with an AHVB.
> >Spiderman web
> >sucks, Ironman AAA has some pretty bad priority, and earthquake sucks.
> >Why would you
> >pick earthquake over 30% damage jug punch?
>
> Ironman/WM AAA:you can combo any beam supers you want afterwards.
It will almost never land, though. This assist can't be compared to the best
anti-keepaway assist in the game, the one that keeps the #1 character Doom
grounded against you.
> Better pressure weapon, jug is less exposed before and after the excution
> and you can combo stuff when it hits, not to mention more chip damage.
The range is terrible, it won't hit very often. Again, this is not even
comparable to a 35% damage punch. Besides, isn't the punch assist more popular?
> >Very convincing.
>
> Well, excuse me for getting tired of this thread, talking to someone who
> just wouldn't listen.
I read everything you write, but that doesn't mean that I have to agree with
it. Did you expect that?
Spider-Dan
>In article <3976FD78...@mindspring.com>,
>Chocobo <cho...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>Spiderman web
>>sucks, Ironman AAA has some pretty bad priority, and earthquake
sucks.
>>Why would you
>>pick earthquake over 30% damage jug punch?
>
>Ironman/WM AAA:you can combo any beam supers you want
afterwards.
>Better pressure weapon, jug is less exposed before and after the
excution
>and you can combo stuff when it hits, not to mention more chip
damage.
Jug punch is the assist to pick.... much longer range, anti-beam
capability, much more damage, and you can still AC into super
(super cancel the AC in startup frames), it's just harder than
earthquake. If you don't protect him, he gets killed in either
case, so earthquake being a bit faster is almost irrelevant.
sol t kim
Chocobo <cho...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>sol t kim wrote:
>
>> In article <3976FD78...@mindspring.com>,
>> Chocobo <cho...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> Tournament, the tournament I was in, and was refering to, was Chicago
>> 2000, with John Choi/Eddie Lee/Valle, etc.
>
>But, you said popularity of a character was important, I'm all confused now. I
>guess you meant "popularity of a character in certain tournaments that support
>my argument". This is all meaningless... popularity means nothing. Sakura may
>end up being the #1 character is this game just like GWM was at the top of
>MVC1, but neither of them were used in early tournaments.
At the beginning, I specified that this 'popularity' was the one
among the players in the tournament. (you snipped it, go back and find it)
People who knows what they are doing and who really want to win.
Obviously, this seperates it from popularity among anybody. In my arcade,
Ryu is still popular-do you think I give a damn? I may have forgotten to
mention at first -at first, I mentioned it at the last post-it was an
actually a real tournament, but I assumed you would know that. In any
case, since I wrote all this, only conclusion I get from the above
paragraph of yours is that you did not read my posts thoroughly. And then
you tried to turn it into an arguement of principles with weak support. I
guess there can be a tournament with many really weak players. Then it's
that particular tournament that is irrelevant, not the character
popularity among the top players, which I implied (and I actually wrote,
which you snipped) that this implied the popularity among the top players,
which IS in any sense, relevant. Now that you mention it, don't many good players
play GWM now? Isn't that why you brought that particular sentence in?
Isn't that how you know GWM is good? So much for popularity not mattering.
And then you bring an entirely seperate issue while character rankings
may change, that is in the matter of future, and is irrelevant. X-Birdie
may, after 99 more intense years of playing, turn out to be the best
character in A3, nobody will know, but the question remains irrelevant
until someone specifically founds out a practical way to achieve this. So
your saying that (hypothetically) less played characters may ultimately be
better means nothing now, unless you found a way to beat everyone with
Sakura and prove yourself in a tournament-a real one.
>> >> A characters' popularity in a local arcade is the one that is invalid.
>> >
>> >Uh, ok. The sky is also blue, by the way.
>>
>> And your sarcasm weak.
>
>Yes, but at least you got the point, which is all that matters.
The statement I made originally was the one that everyone has always known
to such extent that nobody bothered actually writing. I was just naive
enough to think that when someone say 'Tournament', he actually means
a real tournament, not the one you appearantly were in, which may as well
be a local arcade competition. So I just wanted to clearify the
distinction between 'your' tournament and the one I'm talking about.
>I read everything you write, but that doesn't mean that I have to agree with
>it. Did you expect that?
There is a line that seperates reasonableness and stuborness. You have
crossed the line by still insisting on Capcom being one of the 'top'
characters. I don't know if you still think that's true, the thread has
been focusing on something else for a little while, but I think you are
being unreasonable.
I wrote you what I saw was happening among the top players. But you
continued evading the fact, doing:
1) In YOUR tournament, that's not what's happening
2) Not reading my posts carefully and just skimping on words and trying to
find a hole in my arguement.
3)Bringing in good old "I@I" style of arguement, giving a point that
practically at this point has no significance-The true top character may
have been yet undiscovered, but what does it matter at this point, and
what does this add to your arguement? So Kobun being a ultimate top
character somehow makes Capcom good?
When the aruement reaches this point, I generally concede that the
other person is being stubborn. At that point, there really is no reason
to continue the discussion, it's not going to go anywhere.
--
tortoise
>I will blindly pick Commando over Zangief every time. I think
>Commando's usefulness as a primary is being seriously
>underrepresented here. He has pretty good helper punishing
>(sword) and decent keepaway.
I was talking about assists at that moment. I think CapCom over
Gief as
primary character is pretty obvious. But while we're here, you
can only
punish assisters with the sword in certain situations, because
the main
character can get commando out of it quite often. Where as most
beam
supers, Sentinel Force and hail/lightening storm have a much
higher
success rate. At least from what I've seen.
>>After you've metallicized Gief, Lariat is /the/ best
>>anti-air in the game. "Anti-air" in the traditional sense of
>>stopping a jump in attack.
>
>No, it is not. It simply will beat or trade with everything.
Huh? That seems a bit backwards, If it's simply beating
or trading with everything, considering his hyper armor,
how is that not good? Can a jump in attack seriously do
that much damage to Gief?
>That does not make it anywhere near the best, since many
>characters can jump in with things other than physical attacks
Like what? I'm not talking about jumping from a distance
and icebeaming down or whatever, I meant jump-in attack
as in your opponent is coming in to combo you. I guess
storm/ironman/shuma's short ranged electricity, but can they
reach
through Gief and to the main character? What did you
have in mind when you said that?
>and even if they jump in with nothing, MZ is highly vulnerable
>while on screen (ever see MZ assist get hit by a double hail
>storm?)
True, but cant mega Gief also get out of Hyper Sentinel Force
and other typical assist hosing tactics? Or do they slow him
down too much? No denying Gief tends to take a lot of
damage while he's out there.
>
>If you need real anti-air (given that 90% of the real air
>attacking in this game is done at a height far above where
>Zangief is even remotely effective) Commando is one of the best.
>
If you're talking about your opponent actually coming in on
you, I'd still take a standard AAA over Corridor.
they have high enough priority for the close stuff and still go
high enough to reach a lot of other threats. Any threats
they can't reach are typically storm/doom type stuff that
the Corridor is obviously cut out for. Heck my Guile's
flash kick takes Doom out of the air a good amount.
>Corridor is the single best anti *keepaway* assist in the game;
>it's failing is against rushing. You cannot call any sort of
>keepaway ground assist vs Commando AAA (I tested this.... with
>Doom in corner, if he calls BH assist and SJs, you can stand
>directly underneath the end of *your* assists lifebars,
>approximately 2/3rd screen away, and hit the BH assist cleanly
>with Commando AAA).
How would that be better than a beam in that situation?
I suppose you could get doom and blackheart if you're
lucky.
>Commando
>AAA is infinitely more useful than the higher priority AAAs
>against characters like Storm or Blackheart.
>
I dont think anyone is disputing Corridor's vertical
range.
Don't get me wrong, it is a good assist. But as
time has gone on I've found myself using it
less and less. If people on this NG are defending
it to this degree I'd like to find out what the deal
with it is.
Matt
mgreer[at]artic.edu
"And if your dog or cat ever dies, I'll buy you a ewe."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Chocobo
> In article <397768D6...@mindspring.com>,
> Chocobo <cho...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >sol t kim wrote:
> >
> >> In article <3976FD78...@mindspring.com>,
> >> Chocobo <cho...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >> What tournament were you in? I don't mean Janderson's Family Reunion
> >> Tournament, the tournament I was in, and was refering to, was Chicago
> >> 2000, with John Choi/Eddie Lee/Valle, etc.
> >
> >But, you said popularity of a character was important, I'm all confused now. I
> >guess you meant "popularity of a character in certain tournaments that support
> >my argument". This is all meaningless... popularity means nothing. Sakura may
> >end up being the #1 character is this game just like GWM was at the top of
> >MVC1, but neither of them were used in early tournaments.
>
> At the beginning, I specified that this 'popularity' was the one
> among the players in the tournament. (you snipped it, go back and find it)
> People who knows what they are doing and who really want to win.
> Obviously, this seperates it from popularity among anybody.
That doesn't matter. That doesn't change the fact that popularity of a character is
irrelevant. The #1 character in the game might not even be used at all right now, just
like GWM in MVC at this point when MVC was newer.
> Now that you mention it, don't many good players
> play GWM now? Isn't that why you brought that particular sentence in?
> Isn't that how you know GWM is good? So much for popularity not mattering.
No, of course that's not how I know GWM is good. I go out and I play the game myself,
how the hell else are you supposed to find out? Are you used to people who get all
their information from web pages and newsgroups and never play the games themselves?
> And then you bring an entirely seperate issue while character rankings
> may change, that is in the matter of future, and is irrelevant.
I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at, here.
> X-Birdie may, after 99 more intense years of playing, turn out to be the best
> character in A3, nobody will know, but the question remains irrelevant
> until someone specifically founds out a practical way to achieve this.
No, he wouldn't. As time passes, the best ways to play a game, all the little tricks
and nuances of the game are all discovered. Once this point has been reached, you know
for sure how good each of the characters are. This point has not been reached in MVC2
yet, which is an important fact.
> So your saying that (hypothetically) less played characters may ultimately be
> better means nothing now, unless you found a way to beat everyone with
> Sakura and prove yourself in a tournament-a real one.
See above statement. No one knows for sure who's the best, MVC2 is too new for that.
> >> >> A characters' popularity in a local arcade is the one that is invalid.
> >> >
> >> >Uh, ok. The sky is also blue, by the way.
> >>
> >> And your sarcasm weak.
> >
> >Yes, but at least you got the point, which is all that matters.
>
> The statement I made originally was the one that everyone has always known
> to such extent that nobody bothered actually writing. I was just naive
> enough to think that when someone say 'Tournament', he actually means
> a real tournament, not the one you appearantly were in, which may as well
> be a local arcade competition. So I just wanted to clearify the
> distinction between 'your' tournament and the one I'm talking about.
I guess you didn't get the point after all. It was "the popularity of characters means
nothing".
> >I read everything you write, but that doesn't mean that I have to agree with
> >it. Did you expect that?
>
> There is a line that seperates reasonableness and stuborness. You have
> crossed the line by still insisting on Capcom being one of the 'top'
> characters. I don't know if you still think that's true, the thread has
> been focusing on something else for a little while, but I think you are
> being unreasonable.
But you agreed with me! I said he's top 10, then you said he was #12. What point are
you trying to prove? That I made a grave error by placing him two spots high, in your
opinion?
> I wrote you what I saw was happening among the top players. But you
> continued evading the fact, doing:
> 1) In YOUR tournament, that's not what's happening
You seemed to be saying that general popularity of a character determines who is good.
Only later did you say "oh, I meant only in this one tournament".
> 2) Not reading my posts carefully and just skimping on words and trying to
> find a hole in my arguement.
I have not been doing this at all.
> 3)Bringing in good old "I@I" style of arguement, giving a point that
> practically at this point has no significance-The true top character may
> have been yet undiscovered, but what does it matter at this point, and
> what does this add to your arguement?
I brought it up for a reason. You are apparently the one who isn't reading carefully.
I mentioned that the #1 character may not have been discovered yet in order to support
my statement that popularity of characters means nothing. The MVC1 example is perfect
for this- GWM was unpopular in early MVC tournaments, does that mean that he's not
good? The answer is no. The popularity of a character means absolutely nothing. This
is a fact. The recent unpopularity of Commando in your area, or any area, means
absolutely nothing.
> When the aruement reaches this point, I generally concede that the
> other person is being stubborn. At that point, there really is no reason
> to continue the discussion, it's not going to go anywhere.
I'm stubborn because I'm right, and I see no evidence that I'm not right.
Chocobo
> Spider-Dan <spid...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> >If you need real anti-air (given that 90% of the real air
> >attacking in this game is done at a height far above where
> >Zangief is even remotely effective) Commando is one of the best.
> >
> If you're talking about your opponent actually coming in on
> you, I'd still take a standard AAA over Corridor.
> they have high enough priority for the close stuff and still go
> high enough to reach a lot of other threats. Any threats
> they can't reach are typically storm/doom type stuff that
> the Corridor is obviously cut out for. Heck my Guile's
> flash kick takes Doom out of the air a good amount.
An important point is that those threats which normal AAAs can't reach
are a major part of MVC2. Superjumping runaway characters. Doom
superjumping up to do a photon, Sentinel doing... well just about
anything he does will put him in corridor range, anyone calling a
Blackheart assist, Storm flying up and doing tornadoes- these are all
things that happen frequently in MVC2. Corridor will stop it all where a
normal AAA would be useless.
> >Corridor is the single best anti *keepaway* assist in the game;
> >it's failing is against rushing. You cannot call any sort of
> >keepaway ground assist vs Commando AAA (I tested this.... with
> >Doom in corner, if he calls BH assist and SJs, you can stand
> >directly underneath the end of *your* assists lifebars,
> >approximately 2/3rd screen away, and hit the BH assist cleanly
> >with Commando AAA).
>
> How would that be better than a beam in that situation?
> I suppose you could get doom and blackheart if you're
> lucky.
You normally do try to position it to hit them both.
Lupid
most damage you can get out of it, the full double jump is
better if you've got lots of hits before it though, since it
wont do jack anyway.
tortoise
>MvC2 has no such new character designs such that I don't think
we'll
ever
>find anything "crazy unbelievable" like an upturn in rankings.
I dont see how you can say that
going off of assists alone. Each
character has 27225 possible
assist combinations (I dont
remember how to weed out
the repeats, highschool math
was too long ago.)
There's just bound to be more
stuff hiding in there and some
might take a long time to surface.
And that's just accounting for
assists which (believe it or
not) are not the entire game.
Matt
mgreer[at]artic.edu
"And if your dog or cat ever dies, I'll buy you a ewe."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Fluffy
stil...@user2.teleport.com (Stilt Man) wrote:
> In article <8l3jn5$49n$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Fluffy
<loyd...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >In article <8l3gf1$204$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > max_mo...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >> What about Psylocke. IMO Psylocke is basically Cammy with a
projectile.
>
> >No. Big difference here. Cammy is the anti-Cable. Lock-on super
will
> >go through AHVB so long as you don't get hit beforehand.
>
> All right, while I agree with you that Cammy is better than Psylocke
(and
> the MaxCam is indeed one of the reasons that I forgot in the other
article)
> this is _not_ a reason I'd give for it.
>
> The MaxCam will indeed go through the AHVB... but you've got all of
one
> frame of startup before you have to have already executed it, which
means
> that unless you anticipate that it'll hit, you're going to bounce off
of
> him harmlessly and leave him a huge opening to bake you.
>
anything
> else. The MaxCam works well against AMOB, photon array, and other
things
> that give you scads of warning, but trying to use it against someone's
AHVB
> is pretty suicidal -- more so if they bring up an assist before they
throw
> it, which will cause Cammy to bounce a single hit off of the helper
before
> Cable bakes her.
The whole strategy of Maximum Cammying AHVB is to bait Cable into using
it. Helpers are really handy for that. The whole match-up becomes a
battle of who'll flinch first. And MC is safe if Cable bends the beam
down to hit a helper. Mostly, you'll be calling a helper and
jumping/SJing to bait him. If he takes the bait, you get a Maximum
Cammy off and your helper will recover.
> >Cammy also has a faster dash than psylocke. Cammy can cover
> >slightly more ground. Also, IMO Psylocke doesn't have the damage
> >potential that Cammy has. Cammy's Lock-on AC, when done correctly,
does
> >massive damage, nearly 60%. I can't really seem to break the 50%
> >barrier with Psylocke, at least with only one super.
>
> That's on a machine with setting 3 -- at setting 2 it's closer to
45-50%
> for Cammy against most chars. You're right, though, that Cammy does
do
> more damage than Psylocke.
No. It's on damage 2 setting. I'll give you a hint. It involves proper
use of damage scaling.
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> The Stilt Man stil...@teleport.com
> http://www.teleport.com/~stiltman/stiltman.html
> < We are Microsoft Borg '98. Lower your expectations and >
> < surrender your money. Antitrust law is irrelevant. >
> < Competition is irrelevant. We will add your financial and >
> < technological distinctiveness to our own. Your software >
> < will adapt to service ours. Resistance is futile. >
>
--
sol t kim
Chocobo <cho...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>> At the beginning, I specified that this 'popularity' was the one
>> among the players in the tournament. (you snipped it, go back and find it)
>> People who knows what they are doing and who really want to win.
>> Obviously, this seperates it from popularity among anybody.
>
>That doesn't matter. That doesn't change the fact that popularity of a
>character is
>irrelevant.
Ranking is a current thing. even though a character may ultimately end up
being great, if nobody found it out, in a context of this conversation, it
is all but irrelevant. V-Akuma is top in A3 now, it meant nothing when
the game just came out, nobody could play him well enough, and nobody did
play him. Now many people do. That's an indication.
> The #1 character in the game might not even be used at all
>right now, just
>like GWM in MVC at this point when MVC was newer.
What does this have to do with current rankings and the fact Capcom
doesn't cut it? Capcom may, in the next two years, become top five? I
doubt it, but that doesn't mean he's good NOW. nobody can play him
efficiently enough NOW. That's what matters at this point.
>> Now that
>>you mention it, don't many good players
>> play GWM now? Isn't that why you brought that particular sentence in?
>> Isn't that how you know GWM is good? So much for popularity not mattering.
>
>No, of course that's not how I know GWM is good. I go out and I play the
>game myself,
>how the hell else are you supposed to find out? Are you used to people
>who get all
>their information from web pages and newsgroups and never play the games
>themselves?
No. The fact is, one he is known to be good, people play him more.
>No, he wouldn't. As time passes, the best ways to play a game, all the
>little tricks
>and nuances of the game are all discovered. Once this point has been
>reached, you know
>for sure how good each of the characters are. This point has not been
>reached in MVC2
>yet, which is an important fact.
I think it's reasonably been figured out.
>> So your saying that (hypothetically) less played characters may ultimately be
>> better means nothing now, unless you found a way to beat everyone with
>> Sakura and prove yourself in a tournament-a real one.
>
>See above statement. No one knows for sure who's the best, MVC2 is too
>new for that.
This still has no point of arguement. A character may ULTIMATELY turn out
good. Doesn't affect CURRENT rankings.
>I guess you didn't get the point after all. It was "the popularity of
>characters means
>nothing".
I got it, and I disagree with it, as long as 'popularity' means 'being
popular among people who knows what the hell they are doing'.
>But you agreed with me! I said he's top 10, then you said he was #12.
>What point are
>you trying to prove? That I made a grave error by placing him two spots
>high, in your
>opinion?
No. As I repeatedly said, I just put the list off top of my head, and I
was certain that I missed out people. Plus (as was mentioned) there are
people not even on that list that I'm somewhat confident are better than
Capcom, such as Mag/Omega, etc...
>> I wrote you what I saw was happening among the top players. But you
>> continued evading the fact, doing:
>> 1) In YOUR tournament, that's not what's happening
>
>You seemed to be saying that general popularity of a character
>determines who is good.
>Only later did you say "oh, I meant only in this one tournament".
NO. I said AMONG THE TOP CIRCLE OF PLAYERS. WHO HAPPENED TO SHOW UP IN
THAT ONE TOURNAMENT I GAVE YOU EXAMPLE OF.
>> 3)Bringing in good old "I@I" style of arguement, giving a point that
>> practically at this point has no significance-The true top character may
>> have been yet undiscovered, but what does it matter at this point, and
>> what does this add to your arguement?
>
>I brought it up for a reason. You are apparently the one who isn't
>reading carefully.
>I mentioned that the #1 character may not have been discovered yet in
>order to support
>my statement that popularity of characters means nothing. The MVC1
>example is perfect
>for this- GWM was unpopular in early MVC tournaments, does that mean
>that he's not
>good? The answer is no. The popularity of a character means absolutely
>nothing. This
>is a fact. The recent unpopularity of Commando in your area, or any area, means
>absolutely nothing.
I don't live in Cali. I don't live in LA. Capcom may ultimately end up
being good, yes, I'll give you this benefit of doubt. HOWEVER, than the
entire point of ranking is moot. Just purely hypothetically, then,
Cable/Doom may hit the bottom eventually. So why bother ranking anything
at all? The point of ranking is to determine who is good NOW. and as of
NOW Capcom is unpopular among TOP PLAYERS, which is a good indication of
a character strength, therefore Capcom is ranked low NOW. I don't know
Ultimate rankings and I never pretended I did. Therefore your example of
GWM is not suited for this discussion.
>> When the aruement reaches this point, I generally concede that the
>> other person is being stubborn. At that point, there really is no reason
>> to continue the discussion, it's not going to go anywhere.
>
>I'm stubborn because I'm right, and I see no evidence that I'm not right.
That's a sign of being stubborn.
--
AK
: >
: >I brought it up for a reason. You are apparently the one who isn't
: >reading carefully.
: >I mentioned that the #1 character may not have been discovered yet in
: >order to support
: >my statement that popularity of characters means nothing. The MVC1
: >example is perfect
: >for this- GWM was unpopular in early MVC tournaments, does that mean
: >that he's not
: >good? The answer is no. The popularity of a character means absolutely
: >nothing. This
: >is a fact. The recent unpopularity of Commando in your area, or any area, means
: >absolutely nothing.
: I don't live in Cali. I don't live in LA. Capcom may ultimately end up
: being good, yes, I'll give you this benefit of doubt. HOWEVER, than the
: entire point of ranking is moot. Just purely hypothetically, then,
: Cable/Doom may hit the bottom eventually. So why bother ranking anything
: at all? The point of ranking is to determine who is good NOW. and as of
: NOW Capcom is unpopular among TOP PLAYERS, which is a good indication of
: a character strength, therefore Capcom is ranked low NOW. I don't know
: Ultimate rankings and I never pretended I did. Therefore your example of
: GWM is not suited for this discussion.
I totally agree with the current ranking idea, too. A while back I
posted something similar, dealing in particular with Japanese ranking
Spiderman high up in MvC rankings. Could be just that the US never found
out his special "trick" or whatever that makes good against the well
accepted top 5 here in the US. But again, all that really does matter is
what people think at the current time. If that garden vegetable somehow
has a way to effectively take out Cable/Sentinel/rest of top tier, it
really doesn't matter until we find it out, does it?
The GWM argument is definitely weak. Unlike MvC, I don't think MvC2 issues
new character designs akin to RV/GWM. Those are two creative character
designs I really would like to have seen in this game, but really, SonSon
or Marrow or Cable doesn't exactly warrant a new character design at
all. I mean RV was blazing fast normal attacks, so fast he was bound to
have infinites to save his ass and his fast fierce/roundhouse attacks.
GWM couldn't block but happened to make it through due to DWM. But
notably, his super armor prevented him from ever being stopped from
calling out WD unless he was dead.
MvC2 has no such new character designs such that I don't think we'll ever
find anything "crazy unbelievable" like an upturn in rankings. Stuff
like Gambit's glitch will get thrown out of tournaments, and super armor
and fast speed are now able to be dealt with effectively in this game.
Unless Capcom has something special as far as new character designs
hidden away somewhere in the game, I don't see there being a tier 5
character all the sudden turning tier 1.
--
AK
Chocobo
> In article <3977B0C3...@mindspring.com>,
> Chocobo <cho...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> At the beginning, I specified that this 'popularity' was the one
> >> among the players in the tournament. (you snipped it, go back and find it)
> >> People who knows what they are doing and who really want to win.
> >> Obviously, this seperates it from popularity among anybody.
> >
> >That doesn't matter. That doesn't change the fact that popularity of a
> >character is
> >irrelevant.
>
> Ranking is a current thing.
No, it's not. Gold War Machine was not a weak character when MVC1 was new, it's just
that no one knew how to used him.
> > The #1 character in the game might not even be used at all
> >right now, just
> >like GWM in MVC at this point when MVC was newer.
>
> What does this have to do with current rankings and the fact Capcom
> doesn't cut it?
It doesn't have anything to do with that. It does have to do with your statement that
Commando is weak because he's unpopular.
> >> Now that
> >>you mention it, don't many good players
> >> play GWM now? Isn't that why you brought that particular sentence in?
> >> Isn't that how you know GWM is good? So much for popularity not mattering.
> >
> >No, of course that's not how I know GWM is good. I go out and I play the
> >game myself,
> >how the hell else are you supposed to find out? Are you used to people
> >who get all
> >their information from web pages and newsgroups and never play the games
> >themselves?
>
> No. The fact is, one he is known to be good, people play him more.
Then I don't understand why you thought I was saying GWM is good because he's
popular.
> >No, he wouldn't. As time passes, the best ways to play a game, all the
> >little tricks
> >and nuances of the game are all discovered. Once this point has been
> >reached, you know
> >for sure how good each of the characters are. This point has not been
> >reached in MVC2
> >yet, which is an important fact.
>
> I think it's reasonably been figured out.
I disagree. While I don't expect the rankings to change much from now on, there is
most definitely a chance for some new powerful tactics to be discovered. Can you
really tell me that all 56 characters have been played to their fullest?
> >> So your saying that (hypothetically) less played characters may ultimately be
> >> better means nothing now, unless you found a way to beat everyone with
> >> Sakura and prove yourself in a tournament-a real one.
> >
> >See above statement. No one knows for sure who's the best, MVC2 is too
> >new for that.
>
> This still has no point of arguement. A character may ULTIMATELY turn out
> good. Doesn't affect CURRENT rankings.
Are you imagining things? Nowhere have I ever said that Commando has some strategy
that hasn't been figured out yet, and that he's really one of the top three
characters, or something like that.
> >I guess you didn't get the point after all. It was "the popularity of
> >characters means
> >nothing".
>
> I got it, and I disagree with it, as long as 'popularity' means 'being
> popular among people who knows what the hell they are doing'.
Well then, you are dumb. It is a provable fact that popularity has nothing to do with
a characters usefulness.
>
> >> I wrote you what I saw was happening among the top players. But you
> >> continued evading the fact, doing:
> >> 1) In YOUR tournament, that's not what's happening
> >
> >You seemed to be saying that general popularity of a character
> >determines who is good.
> >Only later did you say "oh, I meant only in this one tournament".
>
> NO. I said AMONG THE TOP CIRCLE OF PLAYERS. WHO HAPPENED TO SHOW UP IN
> THAT ONE TOURNAMENT I GAVE YOU EXAMPLE OF.
So now it's "among top players", instead of "at B4"? You keep changing it. At any
rate, it still doesn't matter. Popularity of a character means nothing. GWM in early
MVC is proof of this.
You missed the point. I did not intend to say "the game is not figured out completely
yet, and Commando may be #1". I only said "popularity of a character means nothing,
and this GWM example is proof".
> >> When the aruement reaches this point, I generally concede that the
> >> other person is being stubborn. At that point, there really is no reason
> >> to continue the discussion, it's not going to go anywhere.
> >
> >I'm stubborn because I'm right, and I see no evidence that I'm not right.
>
> That's a sign of being stubborn.
Your lack of sensible, convincing evidence means that I'm stubborn? Whatever.
In reply to AK, my GWM example is not weak. It proves that the popularity of a
character means nothing. It proves my statement quite nicely.
Spider-Dan
>Spider-Dan <spid...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>>I will blindly pick Commando over Zangief every time. I think
>>Commando's usefulness as a primary is being seriously
>>underrepresented here. He has pretty good helper punishing
>>(sword) and decent keepaway.
>
>I was talking about assists at that moment. I think CapCom over
>Gief as
>primary character is pretty obvious. But while we're here, you
>can only
>punish assisters with the sword in certain situations, because
>the main
>character can get commando out of it quite often. Where as most
>beam
>supers, Sentinel Force and hail/lightening storm have a much
>higher
>success rate. At least from what I've seen.
What are you going to do to hit Commando out of a sword? There
are like <3 moves fast enough to nail it on reaction, unless you
are point blank at startup. And it's completely safe against
everything but those same 3 moves.
>>>After you've metallicized Gief, Lariat is /the/ best
>>>anti-air in the game. "Anti-air" in the traditional sense of
>>>stopping a jump in attack.
>>
>>No, it is not. It simply will beat or trade with everything.
>
>Huh? That seems a bit backwards, If it's simply beating
>or trading with everything, considering his hyper armor,
>how is that not good? Can a jump in attack seriously do
>that much damage to Gief?
No AAA with altitude coverage that low can be the best, IMO.
>>That does not make it anywhere near the best, since many
>>characters can jump in with things other than physical attacks
>
>Like what? I'm not talking about jumping from a distance
>and icebeaming down or whatever, I meant jump-in attack
>as in your opponent is coming in to combo you. I guess
>storm/ironman/shuma's short ranged electricity, but can they
>reach
>through Gief and to the main character? What did you
>have in mind when you said that?
Things like Iceman jumping up in front of you with down angled
icebeams, etc. I didn't mean actual SF-style "jumpins." I
suppose it's good against that, though if you selected that
assist it's highly unlikely you'd be able to deal with a real
airbombing, so I doubt they'd need to jump in.
>>and even if they jump in with nothing, MZ is highly vulnerable
>>while on screen (ever see MZ assist get hit by a double hail
>>storm?)
>
>True, but cant mega Gief also get out of Hyper Sentinel Force
>and other typical assist hosing tactics? Or do they slow him
>down too much? No denying Gief tends to take a lot of
>damage while he's out there.
No matter what happens, MZ stays on screen for the full length of
the assist + taunt. You can hit him with multiple supers in
that time.
>>
>>If you need real anti-air (given that 90% of the real air
>>attacking in this game is done at a height far above where
>>Zangief is even remotely effective) Commando is one of the
best.
>>
>If you're talking about your opponent actually coming in on
>you, I'd still take a standard AAA over Corridor.
>they have high enough priority for the close stuff and still go
>high enough to reach a lot of other threats.
I dare you to find any physical air attack that beats Corridor
with anything remotely resembling consistency. Commando's
vulnerable boxes are low on his sprite, and his AAA is
nigh-invincible as far as any jumper-in is concerned (unless they
happen to be calling a AAA during their jump, the likes of which
would beat Zangief's AAA too, while on the subject).
>>Corridor is the single best anti *keepaway* assist in the game;
>>it's failing is against rushing. You cannot call any sort of
>>keepaway ground assist vs Commando AAA (I tested this.... with
>>Doom in corner, if he calls BH assist and SJs, you can stand
>>directly underneath the end of *your* assists lifebars,
>>approximately 2/3rd screen away, and hit the BH assist cleanly
>>with Commando AAA).
>
>How would that be better than a beam in that situation?
>I suppose you could get doom and blackheart if you're
>lucky.
Beam assists present no threat to Doom whatsoever. The advantage
of the corridor in this situation is that it mandates that Doom
keep a certain distance away from you before attacking in the
air(**), and as long as you haven't totally fallen asleep, your
corridor will hit BH basically every time he comes on the field.
The fact that the corridor does a decent chunk of damage makes
it an even better deal.
**Note: If Doom's plan is to rain photons (a legitimate strategy
vs most of the cast), he generally would prefer to be about 1/2
to 2/3 screen from the opponent, so that they are pinned down by
the angle of release. However, when Doom has BH, he can safely
throw photons from full screen, because BH will knock down any
attempt by the opponent to jump up with Doom and attack at the
same altitude. The thing that makes corridor so powerful in this
situation is that fact that it works well against both
angle-jockeying photon raining and BH-assisted raining. Doom is
often reduced to trying to throw photons from fullscreen by
himself, which 1) results in him running away trying to acquire
range a lot, and 2) is not something he wants to be doing in the
first place. This only applies to photon raining, though, as
Doom has a bunch of other strategies he can employ in this
situation.
--
Dan Thompson
[send email to] edge [at] chipware [dot] net
-----------------------------------------------------------
Spider-Dan
>sol t kim wrote:
>
>> In article <3977B0C3...@mindspring.com>,
>> Chocobo <cho...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> At the beginning, I specified that this
'popularity' was the one
>> >> among the players in the tournament. (you snipped it, go
back and find it)
>> >> People who knows what they are doing and who really want to
win.
>> >> Obviously, this seperates it from popularity among anybody.
>> >
>> >That doesn't matter. That doesn't change the fact that
popularity of a
>> >character is
>> >irrelevant.
>>
>> Ranking is a current thing.
>
>No, it's not. Gold War Machine was not a weak character when
MVC1 was new, it's just
>that no one knew how to used him.
>
>> > The #1 character in the game might not even be used at all
>> >right now, just
>> >like GWM in MVC at this point when MVC was newer.
This line of reasoning is inherently flawed. Explain to me
exactly how you can argue that GWM was #1 back then (when nobody
knew how to use him) but Roll isn't #1 right now. You can only
judge a character by what is known. Saying that there could be
an undiscovered #1 in MVC2 means nothing (useful) to anybody.
>> What does this have to do with current rankings and the fact
>>Capcom
>> doesn't cut it?
>
>It doesn't have anything to do with that. It does have to do
with your statement that
>Commando is weak because he's unpopular.
He's not one of the best characters, which is why the tournament
contenders don't use him often. Does it matter whether he's weak
because he's unpopular, or unpopular because he's weak? You're
arguing which is the cause and which is the effect.
Note that I wouldn't personally classify Commando as "weak."
>> >No, he wouldn't. As time passes, the best ways to play a
game, all the
>> >little tricks
>> >and nuances of the game are all discovered. Once this point
has been
>> >reached, you know
>> >for sure how good each of the characters are. This point has
not been
>> >reached in MVC2
>> >yet, which is an important fact.
Please list a game for me in which all the rankings have been
definitively decided, all the tricks have been found, all nuances
have been discovered, etc. Didn't the VA A2 players start saying
E.Ryu is the best in the game last year? If you reserve
judgment until the game is "totally figured out" then you never
make judgment. Rankings can always change.
>> I think it's reasonably been figured out.
>
>I disagree. While I don't expect the rankings to change much
from now on, there is
>most definitely a chance for some new powerful tactics to be
discovered. Can you
>really tell me that all 56 characters have been played to their
fullest?
Nobody will ever be able to say that... does that mean that there
will never be a #1 in MVC2?
>> >> So your saying that (hypothetically) less played
characters may ultimately be
>> >> better means nothing now, unless you found a way to beat
everyone with
>> >> Sakura and prove yourself in a tournament-a real one.
>> >
>> >See above statement. No one knows for sure who's the best,
MVC2 is too
>> >new for that.
>>
>> This still has no point of arguement. A character may
ULTIMATELY turn out
>> good. Doesn't affect CURRENT rankings.
>
>Are you imagining things? Nowhere have I ever said that Commando
has some strategy
>that hasn't been figured out yet, and that he's really one of
the top three
>characters, or something like that.
You continue to reference the fact that we didn't know about GWM,
which is nearly useless in any rankings discussion; the only
thing it accomplishes is proving that we don't know everything.
>> >I guess you didn't get the point after all. It was "the
popularity of
>> >characters means
>> >nothing".
>>
>> I got it, and I disagree with it, as long as 'popularity'
means 'being
>> popular among people who knows what the hell they are doing'.
>
>Well then, you are dumb. It is a provable fact that popularity
has nothing to do with
>a characters usefulness.
Cause and effect again.... somehow I don't think it's a
coincidence that popularity of characters *among good players*
(which is what Mr. Kim implied from the beginning, by mentioning
tournaments, specifically SJG) is directly proportional to
character effectiveness.
>> >> I wrote you what I saw was happening among the top players.
But you
>> >> continued evading the fact, doing:
>> >> 1) In YOUR tournament, that's not what's happening
>> >
>> >You seemed to be saying that general popularity of a
character
>> >determines who is good.
>> >Only later did you say "oh, I meant only in this one
tournament".
>
>> NO. I said AMONG THE TOP CIRCLE OF PLAYERS. WHO HAPPENED TO
SHOW UP IN
>> THAT ONE TOURNAMENT I GAVE YOU EXAMPLE OF.
>
>So now it's "among top players", instead of "at B4"? You keep
changing it. At any
>rate, it still doesn't matter. Popularity of a character means
nothing. GWM in early
>MVC is proof of this.
He said "at Chicago" from the very start.
And yet again you bring up GWM. Why do you think GWM was
unpopular in early MVC? BECAUSE WE ALL THOUGHT HE SUCKED.
Nobody said, "Yeah, GWM is hella effective, but I don't like how
he plays, I'll stick with Chun Li." We all thought he was trash,
which was a reasonable thought at the time. To look back at that
through 20/20 hindsight and say that he was just as effective
back then *when nobody knew what to do with him* is ridiculous.
How do you explain the unpopularity of V-ISM at the A3 nationals?
BECAUSE WE DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO USE IT. Among good players, the
more effective (*KNOWN*) characters are more popular; if you
dispute this, you are just being unreasonable and stubborn.
>> >> 3)Bringing in good old "I@I" style of arguement, giving a
point that
>> >> practically at this point has no significance-The true
top character may
>> >> have been yet undiscovered, but what does it matter at
this point, and
>> >> what does this add to your arguement?
>> >
>> >I brought it up for a reason. You are apparently the one who
isn't
>> >reading carefully.
>> >I mentioned that the #1 character may not have been
discovered yet in
>> >order to support
>> >my statement that popularity of characters means nothing.
And your statement is still wonderfully irrelevant. After that
new #1 character is discovered, he'd be popular too! Will you
just continue to apply this logic to every #1?
>>The MVC1
>> >example is perfect
>> >for this- GWM was unpopular in early MVC tournaments, does
that mean
>> >that he's not
>> >good? The answer is no.
That isn't quite a fair answer. If a character is good, but no
one knows how to use him, then realistically he is one of the
least effective characters in the game at that time (disregarding
potential which carries little real value). You can't apply
hindsight to rankings and say that X was #1 at a time when
everyone only knew how to use A, B, and C. As far as actual
performance went, in early MVC GWM was dead last, or near it.
Rankings are based off of performance, not potential. If you can
argue that GWM was #1 then, I can argue that Servbot is #1 now.
>> >The popularity of a character means
>> >absolutely
>> >nothing. This
>> >is a fact.
Again, you confuse cause with effect.
>> I don't live in Cali. I don't live in LA. Capcom may
ultimately end up
>> being good, yes, I'll give you this benefit of doubt.
HOWEVER, than the
>> entire point of ranking is moot. Just purely hypothetically,
then,
>> Cable/Doom may hit the bottom eventually. So why bother
ranking anything
>> at all? The point of ranking is to determine who is good NOW.
and as of
>> NOW Capcom is unpopular among TOP PLAYERS, which is a good
indication of
>> a character strength, therefore Capcom is ranked low NOW. I
don't know
>> Ultimate rankings and I never pretended I did. Therefore your
example of
>> GWM is not suited for this discussion.
>
>You missed the point. I did not intend to say "the game is not
figured out completely
>yet, and Commando may be #1". I only said "popularity of a
character means nothing,
>and this GWM example is proof".
Your GWM example would only apply if people failed to use him
once they already knew he was #1. It does not apply.
>In reply to AK, my GWM example is not weak. It proves that the
popularity of a
>character means nothing. It proves my statement quite nicely.
The only thing it proves is that we don't know everything at all
times, which is given. There is no substance to that statement
in the context of this discussion.
AK
: ak...@red.seas.upenn.edu (AK) wrote:
: >MvC2 has no such new character designs such that I don't think
: we'll
: ever
: >find anything "crazy unbelievable" like an upturn in rankings.
: I dont see how you can say that
: going off of assists alone. Each
: character has 27225 possible
: assist combinations (I dont
: remember how to weed out
: the repeats, highschool math
: was too long ago.)
: There's just bound to be more
: stuff hiding in there and some
: might take a long time to surface.
: And that's just accounting for
: assists which (believe it or
: not) are not the entire game.
For one thing, assists don't make a character. BH isn't top tier because
of his assist. He's damned good in the game, esp. when you pair him up
with AAA like Cyclops.
Another thing is that since you can only use 1 assist per combo, that
REALLY limits how useful an assist is up to it's 1 use. Yea you can
create semi-lockdowns like with Doom, but those have all been discovered
at this point. This game has already been home released much earlier
than MvC ever was and so the weird stuff aside from glitches have mostly
been accounted for. Unless there's hidden characters, I don't see how
some of the new characters will ever be useful in a tourney (Ruby,
SonSon, Marrow, etc..)..
--
AK
tortoise
>tortoise (mgreerN...@artic.edu.invalid) wrote:
>: ak...@red.seas.upenn.edu (AK) wrote:
>: >MvC2 has no such new character designs such that I don't
think
>: we'll
>: ever
>: >find anything "crazy unbelievable" like an upturn in
rankings.
>
>: I dont see how you can say that
>: going off of assists alone. Each
>: character has 27225 possible
>: assist combinations (I dont
>: remember how to weed out
>: the repeats, highschool math
>: was too long ago.)
>
>: There's just bound to be more
>: stuff hiding in there and some
>: might take a long time to surface.
>
>: And that's just accounting for
>: assists which (believe it or
>: not) are not the entire game.
>
>For one thing, assists don't make a character.
which is why I said, " And that's just
accounting for assists which (believe it or
not) are not the entire game."
I merely picked one aspect of the game.
On the surface this aspect has lots
of options. I was doing nothing more
than providing one example, not
the entire picture.
> BH isn't top tier because
>of his assist.
I never said this.
>Another thing is that since you
>can only use 1 assist per combo
and just like assists, combos
are not the entire game either.
Not even assists+combos is
the entire game, not even close.
>Yea you can
>create semi-lockdowns like with Doom, but those have all been
discovered
>at this point.
How do you know? Tell me how
you know all Doom-like traps
have been found. And,
assists+combos+traps are
still not the entire game (but we're
getting closer)
> This game has already been home released much earlier
>than MvC ever was and so the weird stuff aside from glitches
have
mostly
>been accounted for.
Again, show me how you know this.
The simple fact is you don't.
> Unless there's hidden characters, I don't see how
>some of the new characters will ever be useful in a tourney
(Ruby,
>SonSon, Marrow, etc..)..
a character has to be hidden to be
tourney worthy? Huh? I agree it's
not likely Marrow, SonSon and Ruby
will ever amount to much. But I don't
know that for a fact.
Wasn't it V-Akuma who was thought
to be pretty bleh until someone
busted him out at a tourny and started
kicking ass with him? After that V-Akumas
were everywhere? That same idea
could potentially be applied in so many
ways for MvC2. From Blackheart's launcher
assist to Kobun....who knows?
Matt
mgreer[at]artic.edu
"And if your dog or cat ever dies, I'll buy you a ewe."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Chocobo
I am not trying to argue rankings with that example, a point that
everyone seems to have missed. I used that only as an example that
popularity of a character has nothing to do with the real ability of
that character.
> >I disagree. While I don't expect the rankings to change much
> from now on, there is
> >most definitely a chance for some new powerful tactics to be
> discovered. Can you
> >really tell me that all 56 characters have been played to their
> fullest?
>
> Nobody will ever be able to say that... does that mean that there
> will never be a #1 in MVC2?
I think that after a certain period of time, a game is completely
figured out.
> You continue to reference the fact that we didn't know about GWM,
> which is nearly useless in any rankings discussion; the only
> thing it accomplishes is proving that we don't know everything.
That statement was not intended to discuss rankings. My argument is not
that Commando will be good in the future because he'll have some
techniques that will be found later on. I want that to be perfectly
clear.
kakarot007
>In reply to AK, my GWM example is not weak. It proves that the popularity of
>a
>character means nothing. It proves my statement quite nicely.
Ok, I try to post as infrequently as possible, but I just had to come out of
the wood-work to comment on this.
I think the problem with your GWM analogy is that people purely didn't know
about the power of duos back in the early days of MvC, and thus, GWM didn't get
much use. CapCom, on ther other hand, has been used, and has been tested, and
is, according to certain people on this NG, weak (I have very little first hand
knowledge of the situation). People have known about the corridor for awhile
now, and have came to the conclusion that it isn't what it was cracked up to
be. CapCom is kinda "been there, done that." People have seen his greatest
asset, and have come away unimpressed. If someone magically finds out
something that is not currently known about CapCom, than maybe he will warrant
a higher ranking, but at this point in time, with the knowledge of CapCom that
is known, he isn't considered to be a very good character. Now, if you want to
argue that the top players are wrong, that is just an argument that can go on
forever. It's really easy to say "since the top players were wrong before
about GWM, they are probably wrong about CapCom," but in actuality, that is
probably not the case. People have invested the time in CapCom, and he hasn't
panned out. GWM wasn't really given much of a chance from the get-go, and the
main reason he is so popular now, is because of a whole new technique that was
later discovered. Can you see the distinction I'm trying to make?
Sure, in ALL situations, popularity doesn't totally define the top characters,
but you have to admit, the top players in the country tend to know what they're
talking about, and show it in their play. I went to B4, and pretty much saw
the same combinations of Strider, Doom, Sentinel, Cable, OR, Storm, Blackheart,
Cyclops, and the occasional Spiral (which I'm sure the lemmings at the arcade
are trying to use now) pretty much all day. Sure, maybe Felicia is going to
turn out to dominate the game, but nobody has really given Felicia a chance,
have they (just like GWM)? CapCom got the play time, while GWM didn't.
Zilla
Fluffy
A few things to mention here. And i'll even leave room to respond...
1.) CapCom has his uses and he has his weaknesses. I think the main
thing that keeps people from placing him higher on the totem pole is
that he isn't as strong a single character as some of the others higher
ranking characters. CapCom's assist is great, and it's one of the few
assists that give the SJing upper tier characters a lot of trouble.
but, when it comes down to it, if the game is tight, and it comes down
to the each player having their last character, would your rather have
CapCom or Doom? How about Cammy? How about Blackheart? Cyclops?
Storm? Sentinel? Spiral? Cable?...
2.) As a primary, CapCom is actually better than people think. With a
good assist, he can play keepaway and build meter like mad with Captain
Fires and Mack calling. Mack even stops Strider's teleport. But,
CapCom's biggest strength is his assist. Since most people don't use
him as a primary, he's often left last because his assist is so
valuable. See #1.
3.) There's one big differnce between the experience level of people
playing MVC2 and the experience level of players in MVC. Keep in mind,
the hardcore gamer had the japanese DC version a week before the
US arcade version (including me.=P) But, this just means that a lot of
more people have had the opportunity to play-test things and experiment
more than they did in MVC. I can probably say that I know ten times
more about MVC2 than I ever did about MVC and it's still relatively new.
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
AK <ak...@red.seas.upenn.edu> wrote:
>Just cuz you can shake out of Magneto's magnetic tempest combo doesn't
>make him trash. I believe you can even shake out of it in the corner
Which tempest combo are you refering to? Launch -> AR ->
HyperGrav XX M.Tempest (and more supers after that) or something on the
ground?
>(you end up not flying back as far, but you can still block? might have
>just been that my opponent magneto messed up the AC prior the hypergrav
>XX tempest), even then... his AC still hurts(49/143 using his simple AC
>dash AC) and the thing is he can land it.. a lot.
--
Shaun P. McIsaac
(508) 761 - 4722 People are more violently opposed to fur than
leather because it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
I'd just like to correct this; Akuma was generally placed at the #6 spot
before Daigo came along. This is a far cry from "Solid Gold Sex Machine"
being near bottom.
AK
: In article <8l0b5s$c9k$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
: AK <ak...@red.seas.upenn.edu> wrote:
: >Just cuz you can shake out of Magneto's magnetic tempest combo doesn't
: >make him trash. I believe you can even shake out of it in the corner
: Which tempest combo are you refering to? Launch -> AR ->
: HyperGrav XX M.Tempest (and more supers after that) or something on the
: ground?
Any hypergrav combo, usually followed up with magnetic tempest of
course. I spaz a little too much sometimes and end up uncomboing the
super, but I'm starting to do a controlled spaz now.
BTW have you ever played at downtown or goodtimes yet? Competition is
getting sorta dry, only 3 or 4 other players that play the cheese. or
have I played you already?
--
AK
Chocobo
> In article <8lhd1h$vkv$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
> AK <ak...@blue.seas.upenn.edu> wrote:
> >Shaun Patrick Mcisaac (spmc...@midway.uchicago.edu) wrote:
> >: In article <8l0b5s$c9k$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
> >: AK <ak...@red.seas.upenn.edu> wrote:
> >: >Just cuz you can shake out of Magneto's magnetic tempest combo doesn't
> >: >make him trash. I believe you can even shake out of it in the corner
> >: Which tempest combo are you refering to? Launch -> AR ->
> >: HyperGrav XX M.Tempest (and more supers after that) or something on the
> >: ground?
> >Any hypergrav combo, usually followed up with magnetic tempest of
> >course. I spaz a little too much sometimes and end up uncomboing the
> >super, but I'm starting to do a controlled spaz now.
>
> I still don't get it - you mean there's enough time from when you
> actually are hit by the hyper grav after the air combo and when the super
> starts hitting? You have like 1/10 of a second to wiggle AND if you hit
> the punch/kick buttons you're sure to just get hit by the super.
> I'll have to see it.
Yes, you can mash out of this combo. When you mash out of the hyper grav, it
sends you flying across the screen for some reason, so the worst case scenario
is that you get hit by two or three tempest chunks for no damage. There's no
need to time anything, just mash your ass off anytime Magneto gets a launch.
Magneto isn't a very good character.
Lupid
tier..in whatever order: Doom, Sentinel, Cable, Cyclops, Storm,
and Spiral. This ISN'T top teams, where others' assists can make
them good, but basically this group is rock-paper-scissors
amongst themselves, and dominates anyone else.
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
AK <ak...@blue.seas.upenn.edu> wrote:
>Shaun Patrick Mcisaac (spmc...@midway.uchicago.edu) wrote:
>: In article <8l0b5s$c9k$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
>: AK <ak...@red.seas.upenn.edu> wrote:
>: >Just cuz you can shake out of Magneto's magnetic tempest combo doesn't
>: >make him trash. I believe you can even shake out of it in the corner
>: Which tempest combo are you refering to? Launch -> AR ->
>: HyperGrav XX M.Tempest (and more supers after that) or something on the
>: ground?
>Any hypergrav combo, usually followed up with magnetic tempest of
>course. I spaz a little too much sometimes and end up uncomboing the
>super, but I'm starting to do a controlled spaz now.
I still don't get it - you mean there's enough time from when you
actually are hit by the hyper grav after the air combo and when the super
starts hitting? You have like 1/10 of a second to wiggle AND if you hit
the punch/kick buttons you're sure to just get hit by the super.
I'll have to see it.
>BTW have you ever played at downtown or goodtimes yet? Competition is
>getting sorta dry, only 3 or 4 other players that play the cheese. or
>have I played you already?
Maybe we have, but I'd doubt it. I was there 2 sat's ago from like 12-3
with another guy from my hometown (if you were there, you couldn't miss
him as he's a _huge_ guy getting scrubbed out of the various machines.
Give him credit though he only started playing 1 week before that andhe
didn't feel the need to ram the buttons and picked teams other than pixie,
pixie, pixie =)
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
Chocobo <cho...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Shaun Patrick Mcisaac wrote:
>
>> In article <8lhd1h$vkv$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
>> AK <ak...@blue.seas.upenn.edu> wrote:
>> >Shaun Patrick Mcisaac (spmc...@midway.uchicago.edu) wrote:
>> >: In article <8l0b5s$c9k$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
>> >: AK <ak...@red.seas.upenn.edu> wrote:
>> >: >Just cuz you can shake out of Magneto's magnetic tempest combo doesn't
>> >: >make him trash. I believe you can even shake out of it in the corner
>> >: Which tempest combo are you refering to? Launch -> AR ->
>> >: HyperGrav XX M.Tempest (and more supers after that) or something on the
>> >: ground?
>> >Any hypergrav combo, usually followed up with magnetic tempest of
>> >course. I spaz a little too much sometimes and end up uncomboing the
>> >super, but I'm starting to do a controlled spaz now.
>>
>> I still don't get it - you mean there's enough time from when you
>> actually are hit by the hyper grav after the air combo and when the super
>> starts hitting? You have like 1/10 of a second to wiggle AND if you hit
>> the punch/kick buttons you're sure to just get hit by the super.
>> I'll have to see it.
>
>sends you flying across the screen for some reason, so the worst case scenario
>is that you get hit by two or three tempest chunks for no damage.
I would hardly call over 40% "no damage."
> There's no
>need to time anything, just mash your ass off anytime Magneto gets a launch.
>Magneto isn't a very good character.
He's not Spiral, but neither is capcom. If he's not tier 2, he's
at least at the higher part of #3.
Chocobo
The two or three tempest chunks do no damage. The previous launch into four hits of
aircombo does some damage, not near 40% though.
> > There's no
> >need to time anything, just mash your ass off anytime Magneto gets a launch.
> >Magneto isn't a very good character.
>
> He's not Spiral, but neither is capcom. If he's not tier 2, he's
> at least at the higher part of #3.
He's one of the piles of usually weak pixies, he just has that incredible speed as
his strong point. No really good specials or supers, no good assists.
Spider-Dan
>Shaun Patrick Mcisaac wrote:
>> > There's no
>> >need to time anything, just mash your ass off anytime Magneto
gets a launch.
>> >Magneto isn't a very good character.
At B4, Image got 3rd with Magneto, and I'd say he completely
landed at least 75% of his tempests. Your claim that you can
mash out of every tempest is unfounded to say the least.
>> He's not Spiral, but neither is capcom. If he's not
tier 2, he's
>> at least at the higher part of #3.
>
>He's one of the piles of usually weak pixies, he just has that
incredible speed as
>his strong point. No really good specials or supers, no good
assists.
Magneto, unlike the other pixies (save Strider), has a legitimate
keepaway game as well... Jab EMD is probably the fastest
projectile in the game. He has a fast 8-way airdash (unlike
other pixies), his standard zigzag aircombos do very good damage
as well.
You are implying that because you can mash out of tempests,
Magneto is not a good character... this is wrong on many levels.
BTW, Magneto is a better character than Commando.
--
Dan Thompson
[send email to] edge [at] chipware [dot] net
-----------------------------------------------------------
tortoise
>Magneto, unlike the other pixies (save Strider)
Was this intentional on Capcom's part, making Mags a pixie? Never
having really played Mags I just lumped him in with the beam
characters. I was quite suprised to see what people were doing
with him at the Midwest Tourney.
And jab EMD is fast? Maybe people are always using fierce against
me, I can usually headcrush in response to it.
Matt
mgreer[at]artic.edu
"And if your dog or cat ever dies, I'll buy you a ewe."
-----------------------------------------------------------
AK
: >> > There's no
: >> >need to time anything, just mash your ass off anytime Magneto
: gets a launch.
: >> >Magneto isn't a very good character.
: At B4, Image got 3rd with Magneto, and I'd say he completely
: landed at least 75% of his tempests. Your claim that you can
: mash out of every tempest is unfounded to say the least.
I dunno, but I've checked again, and I've found it possible to mash out
of every tempest attempt landed on me since I got the mashing down correctly,
even in the corner. Problem is not over mashing so that you end up
uncomboing the tempest, but with a little practice, it doesn't become an
issue IMO. I dunno, I don't think the calibur of players at B4 would have
problems doing something like mashing out of tempest,... could just be like
the 8-hit headcrush thing where you need a "technique" to get it to work
consistently. But landing 75% of his tempests? hmm.. I just mash real
hard as soon as I expect the hypergrav to come out, not prior, then
immediately stop mashing after I expect my character to fly back (split second
later). The majority of the time I get released in time, although I have
had problems getting out of the combo with big characters (could just be
that I'm expecting I won't get out and don't do it right, I dunno).
Counter mashing might make the tempest reliable again? I have no idea how Image
could land them all since getting around the tempest is kinda old news.
I'm probably missing something.
Anyway, as said before, Magneto is still a great contender, tempest or no
tempest.
--
AK
Chocobo
> Chocobo <cho...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >Shaun Patrick Mcisaac wrote:
>
> >> > There's no
> >> >need to time anything, just mash your ass off anytime Magneto
> gets a launch.
> >> >Magneto isn't a very good character.
>
> At B4, Image got 3rd with Magneto, and I'd say he completely
> landed at least 75% of his tempests. Your claim that you can
> mash out of every tempest is unfounded to say the least.
Oh, it's extremely founded. I do it all the time. My friend blt does it
all the time. Image told me that he didn't know why more people weren't
trying to mash out (they weren't even trying, it's not as if they failed
at it because it's difficult). I know he's an excellent player and could
have done just as well with another team, but if the people there tried
to mash out of the tempests, Magneto would not have brought nearly that
much success. Call me stupid for saying so, but that high placement for
Magneto means next to nothing.
>
> >> He's not Spiral, but neither is capcom. If he's not
> tier 2, he's
> >> at least at the higher part of #3.
> >
> >He's one of the piles of usually weak pixies, he just has that
> incredible speed as
> >his strong point. No really good specials or supers, no good
> assists.
>
> Magneto, unlike the other pixies (save Strider), has a legitimate
> keepaway game as well... Jab EMD is probably the fastest
> projectile in the game. He has a fast 8-way airdash (unlike
> other pixies), his standard zigzag aircombos do very good damage
> as well.
>
> You are implying that because you can mash out of tempests,
> Magneto is not a good character... this is wrong on many levels.
He is above average, for sure. But he isn't "3rd place at a national
tournament" level.
> BTW, Magneto is a better character than Commando.
One on one, easily. As part of a team, especially when Doom is on the
opposing side, I strongly disagree that Magneto is more useful.
Spider-Dan
>
>Was this intentional on Capcom's part, making Mags a pixie?
Never
>having really played Mags I just lumped him in with the beam
>characters. I was quite suprised to see what people were doing
>with him at the Midwest Tourney.
>
>And jab EMD is fast? Maybe people are always using fierce
against
>me, I can usually headcrush in response to it.
Either EMD will earn you a free headcrush on account of their
recovery (and the fact that Jug's super armor will allow him to
retaliate instantly on a *connected* EMD) but if you aren't
fighting Jug or Cable, it's very useful.
--
Dan Thompson
[send email to] edge [at] chipware [dot] net
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jinmaster
In article <8l4jej$k7j$1...@user2.teleport.com>,
stil...@user2.teleport.com (Stilt Man) wrote:
> In article <8l3gf1$204$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, <max_mo...@my-deja.com>
wrote:
> >In article <0130e1ec...@usw-ex0106-046.remarq.com>,
> > Spider-Dan <spid...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >> Here's my thoughts on the rankings, in approximate order:
>
> [lots of folks mentioned but not...]
>
> >What about Psylocke. IMO Psylocke is basically Cammy with a
projectile.
>
> Not really. I believe he's probably ranking Cammy in here due to the
cannon
> spike. Although Psylocke's psi-blade is a very good assist (and,
arguably,
> merits her mention for that) it's only particularly effective near
the ground,
> whereas the spike doesn't lose much of its effectiveness at fairly
high
> altitudes -- unless you're flat out going off the screen or close to
it,
> Cammy can still reach you. For Psylocke, er... no. :)
Cammy is above Psylocke becuase Max Cam goes through AHVB, but you
wouldn't know that becuase...
> Even as a primary char, I'd still put Cammy ahead of Psylocke, on
simple
> damage infliction and speed alone. Psylocke's dash isn't quite as
fast
> as Cammy's and her big combos don't hurt as much as Cammy's.
>
> I'd put either one of them ahead of Spidey, either Wolvie, Marrow,
Jill,
> Hayato, or the other pixies. Maybe even Strider -- Strider's a little
> more effective up front than Psylocke or Cammy, but not (IMO) by
enough
> that he really warrants all the hoopla... and none of his assists are
> anywhere near in either Psylocke or Cammy's league.
Allow me to clarify. Stilts "IMO" is worthless becuase the Strider's in
his area suck and admitting that Strider is good will make Stilt look
very bad based on past postings. Secondly, Strider's Beta tracks and
can hit full screen, and I'm afraid that none of Psylocke's assists
compare.
I'm not sold that
> Strider in front is more powerful than Psylocke _or_ Cammy in back,
because
> either of them being back there makes his teleport-and-hit game FAR
less
> effective -- e.g. Magneto/Psylocke and two meters can kill Strider
outright
> or close to it with just a single clean hit from Psylocke's AAA, and
just
> a single smack from Cammy sets Strider back a lot more than an
Ouro/rocks
> meter will answer for.
#1 Magneto/psylocke = Roll away/Mash out of hype-grav combo.
#2 Cammy does about 30% damage, which is about how much chipping
Strider Doom would do, except chipping doesn't fill up the blocking
person's meter. You are GOD stilt, whoever said you strats are ass-
backwards is obviously a scrub. Teach me how to play plz.
>
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> The Stilt Man stil...@teleport.com
> http://www.teleport.com/~stiltman/stiltman.html
> < We are Microsoft Borg '98. Lower your expectations and >
> < surrender your money. Antitrust law is irrelevant. >
> < Competition is irrelevant. We will add your financial and >
> < technological distinctiveness to our own. Your software >
> < will adapt to service ours. Resistance is futile. >
>
--
Homepage for Marvel Vs. Capcom I and
II:http://www.geocities.com/therealjinmaster/
Homepage for Starcraft:
http://www.geocities.com/therealjinmaster/starcraft/intro.html
nicholas louis rogal
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Jinmaster wrote:
> What a joke.
> #2 Cammy does about 30% damage, which is about how much chipping
> Strider Doom would do, except chipping doesn't fill up the blocking
> person's meter. You are GOD stilt, whoever said you strats are ass-
> backwards is obviously a scrub. Teach me how to play plz.
with meter Cammy's air combo does around 66% on strider 95-100 points,
depending on exactly what air combo you do.
I think a more appropriate question is who is better strider or
cammy on a non-doom team.
Spider-Dan
>
>On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Jinmaster wrote:
>
>> What a joke.
>
>> #2 Cammy does about 30% damage, which is about how much
chipping
>> Strider Doom would do, except chipping doesn't fill up the
blocking
>> person's meter. You are GOD stilt, whoever said you strats are
ass-
>> backwards is obviously a scrub. Teach me how to play plz.
>
> with meter Cammy's air combo does around 66% on strider
95-100 points,
>depending on exactly what air combo you do.
Nobody was talking about the aircombos; they were talking about
Cammy's AAA.
> I think a more appropriate question is who is better
strider or
>cammy on a non-doom team.
Why would you use Strider without Doom? Doom has virtually zero
bad matches.
OneShot
>nicholas louis rogal <ro...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>>
>>On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Jinmaster wrote:
>>
>>> What a joke.
>>
>>> #2 Cammy does about 30% damage, which is about how much
>chipping
>>> Strider Doom would do, except chipping doesn't fill up the
>blocking
>>> person's meter. You are GOD stilt, whoever said you strats are
>ass-
>>> backwards is obviously a scrub. Teach me how to play plz.
>> with meter Cammy's air combo does around 66% on strider
>95-100 points, depending on exactly what air combo you do.
>
>Nobody was talking about the aircombos; they were talking about
>Cammy's AAA.
>> I think a more appropriate question is who is better
>strider or cammy on a non-doom team.
>
>Why would you use Strider without Doom?
Oh, I don't know. Why would you not use DWM in MvC? Why would you not use
Akuma/Ibuki in 2I? Why would you not use V-ism in A3? The answer: Eventually,
one gets TIRED of using the same fucking tactics/characetrs over and over and
over ad nauseim (and might I add that I find MvC2's endless keepaway to actually
be even more boring than the mindless offense of Striderine-Man of yore),
especially if said one doesn't care for said tactics/characters. I like Strider,
so I use him. I do not like Doom (much). Therefore, I will not use him unless
it's absolutely necessary (which unfortunately is 100% of the time against
competition of any decent skill level, which is one of the reasons I don't like
MvC2 that much).
>Doom has virtually zero bad matches.
What about Strider himself? I think Doom is fairly weak in close, but with his
ability to run away and throw shit down, Strider has the best (only?) real
chance of taking advantage of that weakness. I think Psylocke or possbily
Spiderman wouldn't fair too badly against him, though it probably depends on
helpers (as does nearly everything in this game).
BTW, MvC2 seems to have officially degenerated into "hide your Cable" (tm
Viscant) or "hide your Doom". It's either Cable + friends or Doom + friends.
Bleah. Does this game suck yet?
--
U
-OneShot
Jeffrey "OneShot" Wong
http://www.anime.sobhrach.com/~jeffwong/index.html
Stilt Man
OneShot <jeff...@optonline.net> wrote:
>What about Strider himself? I think Doom is fairly weak in close, but with his
>ability to run away and throw shit down, Strider has the best (only?) real
>chance of taking advantage of that weakness. I think Psylocke or possbily
>Spiderman wouldn't fair too badly against him, though it probably depends on
>helpers (as does nearly everything in this game).
Psylocke and Spidey die against Doom. BADLY. If Doom just simply jumps
around and throws fierce beams with the right timing, the only thing they
can really do to get up over it and close to him is to either super jump
or call in beam help. Beam help only convinces him to take to the air
instead of blasting you nonstop on the ground with photon charges, neither
of which they can do much of anything about, either unless they've got
altitude anti-air help as well. The number of positions where they can
really run Doom to ground isn't that many (read: they don't have dive
kicks, Spidey has an air dash that's pretty much completely uncontrollable
in its positioning, etc) and they get cut down badly if Doom is _not_
crazy enough to forget to bring anti-air help of his own. (If he has
BH, your super jumping hopes get killed on the spot.) Their own projectiles
are completely useless compared to his, and with no particularly easy ways
to narrow the distance faster than Doom can stop it, this just doesn't work
so hot.
Strider (without Doom) at least has a teleport, though (without Doom) most
any sort of in-close anti-air help kills him the same as them, Doom just
has to worry about a few more attacks.
>BTW, MvC2 seems to have officially degenerated into "hide your Cable" (tm
>Viscant) or "hide your Doom". It's either Cable + friends or Doom + friends.
>Bleah. Does this game suck yet?
Sentinel? Strider? Blackheart? Cammy? Cyclops? Spiral? These chars
aren't exactly useless without Doom or Cable on their team...
Spider-Dan
The question was "Who is BETTER on a non-Doom team?" If you're
looking for *effective* (read: BETTER) characters, why the fuck
are you going to remove Strider's most complementary assister?
If you're going to say "Who is better, Cammy or Strider, on a
non-Doom team?" you might as well say "Who is better, Cammy or
Zangief, against non-projectile teams?" WTF. Waste of time.
(and might I add that I find MvC2's endless
keepaway to actually
>be even more boring than the mindless offense of Striderine-Man
of yore)
Give me a fucking break. In MVC2 there is at least a semblance
of balance, meaning that (however few) some characters have the
ability to break down keepaway tactics, and (many) have the
ability to execute them.
In MVC1 there is no such thing, the whole game is rush and/or
Duo. What a fucking joke.
>especially if said one doesn't care for said tactics/characters.
Then go play any other game in the last 5 years, where keepaway
is totally non-existant. Take up Tekken.
I like Strider,
>so I use him. I do not like Doom (much). Therefore, I will not
use him unless
>it's absolutely necessary (which unfortunately is 100% of the
time against
>competition of any decent skill level, which is one of the
reasons I don't like
>MvC2 that much).
Cry me a river. If you can't beat your competition with Strider,
you sure as hell won't be able to beat them with Cammy. Is that
the answer you wanted?
>>Doom has virtually zero bad matches.
>
>What about Strider himself? I think Doom is fairly weak in
close, but with his
>ability to run away and throw shit down, Strider has the best
(only?) real
>chance of taking advantage of that weakness. I think Psylocke or
possbily
>Spiderman wouldn't fair too badly against him, though it
probably depends on
>helpers (as does nearly everything in this game).
Strider vs Doom is not a good match for Doom, but it's still
quite winnable, IMO. That match is very dependant on Strider's
3rd assist.
>BTW, MvC2 seems to have officially degenerated into "hide your
Cable" (tm
>Viscant) or "hide your Doom". It's either Cable + friends or
Doom + friends.
>Bleah. Does this game suck yet?
This coming from a person that asserted that MVC1 consisted of 3
characters (SGWM anyone?) Even with a more accurate
MVC1 tournament roster of 5 characters, MVC2 has over twice that
many tournament caliber characters. Please, spare me.
OneShot
I'm not necessarily looking for better (at least not all the time), but
*different*. While Doom is Strider's best assister, Strider can put up
effective patterns with numerous other chaarcters (G-Sentinel comes to mind).
Why should I pick Doom EVERY fucking time? Just because he's the best? See my
response to that above.
BTW, I thought it was obvious that Strider is a better character on a non-Doom
team. Cammy does have a longer, faster dash, better comboability, and better
anti-air, that amounts to little in a game dominated as it is by keepaway.
Strider can manouver around the playing field a lot better than Cammy thanks to
his teleport, and dog->Ouro is near free damage. Strider doesn't need Doom's for
that (he just needs his help to maintain it the longest and do to the most chip
damage).
>If you're going to say "Who is better, Cammy or Strider, on a
>non-Doom team?" you might as well say "Who is better, Cammy or
>Zangief, against non-projectile teams?" WTF. Waste of time.
I don't see what these two questions have in common, other than there is a
definite answer (Strider is better than Cammy on a non-Doom team; Cammy is
better than Zangief on a non-projectile team).
>(and might I add that I find MvC2's endless keepaway to actually
>>be even more boring than the mindless offense of Striderine-Man
>of yore)
>
>Give me a fucking break. In MVC2 there is at least a semblance
>of balance, meaning that (however few) some characters have the
>ability to break down keepaway tactics, and (many) have the
>ability to execute them.
>
>In MVC1 there is no such thing, the whole game is rush and/or
>Duo. What a fucking joke.
Perhaps. Yet why is is that I find MvC2 to be duller than it's predecessor?
While I didn't like MvC, I did find it exciting to play at times. I find myself
modding off whenever I play my marque/top tier characters in MvC
(Strider/Sentinel/Doom/Juggernaut - Cable I only play to prove how broken he
is). Actually, now that I think about it, I think it's mainly due to characters
missing their medium attacks and the game being so helper-dependent rather than
the endless keepway. I'm using relatively simple tactics for every single team
because that's geneally all they can do (Strider - Ouro rush; Doom - Jump back
fierce or sj up and Photon shot; Juggernaut - jump around with short or fierce
until it hits, HC; Cable - keepaway, wait for helper, AHVB x 3, etc, etc). It
gets so dull after a while. Thank God for Magneto and Sentinel, who are still
fun to play even if they've been simplified.
>>especially if said one doesn't care for said tactics/characters.
>Then go play any other game in the last 5 years, where keepaway
>is totally non-existant. Take up Tekken.
Tekken sucks. Next.
>I like Strider, so I use him. I do not like Doom (much). Therefore, I will not
>use him unless it's absolutely necessary (which unfortunately is 100% of the
>time against competition of any decent skill level, which is one of the
>reasons I don't like MvC2 that much).
>Cry me a river. If you can't beat your competition with Strider,
>you sure as hell won't be able to beat them with Cammy. Is that
>the answer you wanted?
What? I beat most of my competition with Strider alone (i.e. never have to tag
in anyone else). Of course, these people suck, so that means nothing. I can beat
most people with my scrubby Magneto. If I'm going up against somebody good - and
they have Doom (or Cable) on their team - then I must use Strider, and if
their're really good, I must use Doom as well even though I don't care for him.
Doom is GWM who can block and can fly. I don't like being forced to use
characters I don't like. Bleah.
>>>Doom has virtually zero bad matches.
>>What about Strider himself? I think Doom is fairly weak in
>close, but with his ability to run away and throw shit down, Strider has the best
>(only?) real chance of taking advantage of that weakness. I think Psylocke or
>possbily Spiderman wouldn't fair too badly against him, though it
>probably depends on helpers (as does nearly everything in this game).
>Strider vs Doom is not a good match for Doom, but it's still
>quite winnable, IMO. That match is very dependant on Strider's
>3rd assist.
Assuming his second assist is Doom, right? What if Strider doesn't have Doom?
Even then, I think Doom vs. Strider counts as a bad match for Doom. I think it
depends more on Doom's assists than Strider's...
>>BTW, MvC2 seems to have officially degenerated into "hide your
>Cable" (tm Viscant) or "hide your Doom". It's either Cable + friends or
>Doom + friends. Bleah. Does this game suck yet?
>This coming from a person that asserted that MVC1 consisted of 3
>characters (SGWM anyone?)
Whatever. The most I'll give is 4. And you need to be Eddie Lee (i.e. that much
better than your opponent) to able to win with Hypervenom against DWM. S/WM is
in HM's favour, though, though .
> Even with a more accurate MVC1 tournament roster of 5 characters,
Who's the 5th? Wolverine or Gambit?
> MVC2 has over twice that many tournament caliber characters. Please, spare me.
Yet the pattern is the same. In MvC, you have either a Strider or a WM on your
team. In MvC2, you have either Cable or Doom on your team. Since the teams and
roster have increased (the latter almost 3-fold), I'd *expect* a larger cast of
tournament calibre characters. At least MvC2 isn't worse than MvC in that
regard, but I don't think it's any better either.
--
U