The Incineration of Guile
Tim Morris
How is Guile supposed to escape a competent fireball corner trap on CE?
The only time I have trouble with Ryu/Ken (Classic) or Ken (TCE) is
when they get me trapped in the corner and just go all out with fast
fireballs (close range). Guile ends up blocking for 99.8% of the time.
Jumping is hopeless - even if you fluke it without getting hit, Guile
floats through the air with "I want to eat your dragon punch" stencilled
on his forehead. So jumping is no good (even straight up will get you
DP'ed by Ken on TCE) , I can't seem to get a sonic boom off, and the
razor kick won't get over a fireball that's right on top of you. Is
there a way out for hapless Guile?
--
Tim Morris
Seth James Killian
Ha Ha Ha! As a Ryu advocate and a master of the fireball trap I
can say with confidence that it is nearly inescapable. There are
those who will flame (I have already gotten mail with the ingenious
suggestions of footsweeping or the backhand. The more ingenious
idiots have even suggested razorkicking out of it). These simplistic
solutions WILL NOT work against a well engineered fireball trap.
The only way out is to jump before your opponent fireballs. Yes,
you must be in the air when he throws it. This is not a very
satisfying solution as it puts Ryu in the driver's seat as to whether
or not he tears your head off. Hence the extremely nasty nature of
this trap. If you do get in the air as Ryu is throwing the 'ball
then you should be able to land a combo of your own. Unfortunately
a good Ryu will toss in a number of fakes and leave you with the
unsavory position of blinly guessing when and if he's going to throw
a fireball.
Seth Killian
>--
>Tim Morris
Mitri Van
>u89...@bruny.cc.utas.edu.au (Tim Morris) writes:
>
>>How is Guile supposed to escape a competent fireball corner trap on CE?
> The only way out is to jump before your opponent fireballs. Yes,
> you must be in the air when he throws it. This is not a very
Also, if the Ryu/Ken player is too close, you can try to kick his foot
when he sticks it out to fireball... course, if he's too far away, you're
outta luck. :)
-- Mitri
Thomas Calvin Cannon
>u89...@bruny.cc.utas.edu.au (Tim Morris) writes:
>
>
>>How is Guile supposed to escape a competent fireball corner trap on CE?
>>The only time I have trouble with Ryu/Ken (Classic) or Ken (TCE) is
>>when they get me trapped in the corner and just go all out with fast
>>fireballs (close range). Guile ends up blocking for 99.8% of the time.
> can say with confidence that it is nearly inescapable. There are
> those who will flame (I have already gotten mail with the ingenious
> suggestions of footsweeping or the backhand. The more ingenious
> idiots have even suggested razorkicking out of it). These simplistic
> solutions WILL NOT work against a well engineered fireball trap.
B.S. The spinning backhand _will_ get you out of many a cornering, but more
importantly, it will help keep you from getting stuck in the first place.
Whenever you're too close to jump a Ryu/Ken fireball, the spinning hackhand
will TRADE damage in Guile's favor (by about 3 'pixils' of life). Now
Mr. Seth, explain to us 'idiots' why this 'simplistic solution' doesn't work.
Works for me.
>
> Seth Killian
---
T. Cannon
This Space for Rent
>B.S. The spinning backhand _will_ get you out of many a cornering, but more
>importantly, it will help keep you from getting stuck in the first place.
>Whenever you're too close to jump a Ryu/Ken fireball, the spinning hackhand
>will TRADE damage in Guile's favor (by about 3 'pixils' of life). Now
>Mr. Seth, explain to us 'idiots' why this 'simplistic solution' doesn't work.
>Works for me.
(We're talking SFII-CE here. On classic, Guile has a much easier time
getting out of fireball traps.)
If positioned correctly, Ryu will be able to throw another fireball and
hit you before you can do ANYTHING. This is CE we're talking about.
You can't even cancel out the fireball with a sonic boom, much less
get a backhand halfway across the screen in time.
For those of you who are perhaps unclear by what we designate as a
'fireball trap' here at UIUC, it is the following:
Position Ryu at a fair distance from your opponent. Preferably out of
the range of their long range attacks. On each screen, there is a
'marker' for the distance Ryu should stand. It is the drain on the
Honda screen, the rock on certain other screens. Position Ryu so that
he is at this position and the opponent is in the corner.
Throw a slow fireball to hit the opponent as he is getting up. Let it
hit him late sometimes and early other times.
Throw a fast fireball immediately after the slow fireball. Against most
opponents, this hits automatically, especially if you timed the first
one to hit late. If the opponent tries to jump up or forward, this fireball
will hit him and knock him down from the air. Repeat the above step.
Against Guile, the second fireball will him him if he tries to
a) jump up or forward
b) razor kick
c) sonic boom
d) anything other than block
I listed options a-c as separate from d since people think they can
escape the second fireball with one of those moves.
After the fast fireball, there is a moment when the opponent can get away.
The opponent MUST jump straight up over the next fireball. If the
opponent jumps forward, Ryu will most certainly hit him with a dragon
punch. The problem is that the opponent doesn't know whether
a) it's a slow fireball
b) it's a fast fireball
c) if it's going to be a fireball at all.
If the opponent guesses wrong, he'll wind up falling onto a slow fireball
after he jumps up or getting hit by the fast one. If he hesitates too
long, Ryu can throw a slow fireball and start the cycle over again.
Assuming that the opponent has blocked the slow fireball, the fast fireball
and successfully jumped over the third fireball, he is now technically
'free' from the fireball trap. However, he is in the disadvantageous
position of guessing what the Ryu player will do.
If the Ryu player is silly, he'll throw another fireball right away.
In this case, the opponent can jump in and combo poor Ryu. However, the
opponent must do this BEFORE Ryu throws the fireball. That makes things
a bit harder...
Most Ryu players will wait a little bit to see what you do. If you jump
in, you are dragon punch meat. If you don't do anything, Ryu can throw
a fireball and get you started in the 'fireball trap' again. My usual
strategy when I'm in the receiving end of the 'fireball trap' is to
wait a little bit... the same as Ryu, and THEN jump in. If I don't feel
so risky, then I may throw a fireball or sonic boom instead.
Of course, if you DO throw a fireball or sonic boom as soon as you're
'free' from the fireball trap, Ryu can and probably will anticipate it
and jump in and clobber you with a combo. Then, as you're getting up,
he can get you back into the fireball trap.
Note that Guile DOES have an easier time getting out of it if he can
throw a sonic boom when he's 'free'. Other characters don't have this
option. The only problem is that Ryu knows that Guile can get out of
the fireball trap this way, so he doesn't let him.
Ryu can do many things. He can throw a slow fireball after the initial
slow fireball and THEN throw the fast one. This will mess up their
chance to sonic boom out of the fireball trap on the third fireball.
They'll have to wait for the fourth one, if they're still charged.
Ryu can also adjust the rate of his fireballs according to when Guile
is charged. If Guile tries to throw a sonic boom while a fast fireball
is coming after he's just blocked a slow one, he won't be able to get
it out. At best, he'll just block and lose his charge. At worst, he
gets hit and loses his charge. Ryu can just repeat the pattern until
Guile dies.
Now that you know this evil strategy, you can go and try it out on
your SF 'friends'. If you can't dragon punch, just use roundhouse kick
instead. It's just as effective and much more humiliating to a good
Guile player. After people around your area have mastered the nuances
of this strategy, see if you can figure out how to get out of it with
Guile. And no, backhand will not work.
>T. Cannon
--
Eu-Ming Lee (aka CyberGeek) el2...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
Guys with long sigs are just trying to compensate for something...
Mat Hen
> --
> Tim Morris
Exactly! I'm always frustrated when my guile gets cornered by Ken and
Ryu(and especially Ryu)'s fireballs. You can't razor kick 'cose you
need to recover from blocking the previous fireball and by the time
you get out of the stun, the fireball is already right in front of
you(if you razor now, the fireball will hit you). I usually just jump
striaght up to avoid to the fireballs. Sure ken can fierce DP, but
he'll lose the space advantage afterwards.
--
------
Mat Hen
Seth James Killian
Well, perhaps I was too harsh. You are probably not an idiot, I
humbly retract that derogatory comment. Technically speaking, you
should be referred to as, perhaps, Knucklehead, Scrub or Newbie.
The backhand will simply not work. You answered your own question
by saying "whenever you're too close". Silly me. I simply assumed
you would realize I was not talking about the wrong way to execute
a fireball trap. If I were discussing means of escaping "the wrongly
executed fireball trap" then your suggestion is truly a brilliant one,
and all of us here on the net owe you a great debt. Unfortunately, when viewed in context, I'm afraid your remark does indeed fall into the
"idiot" category (oops, this is a Politically correct group, how
about mentally disadvantaged, got a nice ring to it). I only put those
"no idiot responses" clauses into posts in an effort to avoid dealing
with limited individuals such as yourself. Next time, be a lamb and
don't respond when you don't know what you are talking about. Thank
you Mr.T (Cannon).
Seth Killian >>
Thomas Calvin Cannon
>ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU (Thomas Calvin Cannon) writes:
>
>>B.S. The spinning backhand _will_ get you out of many a cornering, but more
>>importantly, it will help keep you from getting stuck in the first place.
[stuff deleted]
>
>(We're talking SFII-CE here. On classic, Guile has a much easier time
>getting out of fireball traps.)
>
[stuff deleted]
Now, THIS is the spot where a spinning backhand _will_ get Guile out of this
most evil death trap. (Yes, on CE) nstead of jumping a second time,
_wait_ till you see Ryu do his typical fireball motion, then hit fierce.
Guile and Ryu trade damage, Ryu taking a bit more than Guile. More
importantly, Ruy is knocked back, giving you time to get away from the
corner. END OF DEATH-TRAP
[much stuff deleted]
Don't try to tell me that this doesn't work, 'cause I've done it myself
many times. (on CE, mind you) I suggest you try it yourself before flaming
this post.
>
>--
>Eu-Ming Lee (aka CyberGeek) el2...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
>Guys with long sigs are just trying to compensate for something...
---
T. Cannon
AstralWolf
A well timed razor kick will both hit Ken/Ryu when they toss the FB, and
porbably get you through the FB. If they are out of razor kick range, then you
should be able to jump straight up, even against Ken I believe. If not, vs
Ken since he takes an eternity to wind up for a FB, you may be able to jump
over and tag him. Noone said FB traps were easy...if they were then they
wouldn't be a trap now would they?
--
/| / / | / / /-/ Can be reached on the
/ | /--/ --- |/-/ /-\| | | ^ / /-\ | |/ Astral Planes known as:
/--| \-\ | | | | | | /| / | | | | lov...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
/ | \--/ / / \--/| / |/ |/ \-/ / / jvl4...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
Crying Freeman
>[much stuff deleted]
Um, obviously you haven't been "trapped" then. The Ryu trap when executed
properly doesn't give enough time to do a spinning backfist. The backfist
will START to come out, but before it hits Ryu, Guile will reel backwards.
BTW, I don't play Ryu, I play Guile. However, most people can't do the
fireball trap properly here at U of I. There are maybe only 3 Ryu players
who can and will do it right. There ARE a few other players that can do it, but
I think they find it too boring. (They've all switched back to Ken, because
of the lure of the 4 hit combo.)
Besides, even if you do trade damage, why does that put you out of the death
trap?
On top of that, to exchange with a backfist, you'd have to guess exactly
when he was going to throw a fireball, and as I believed was mentioned,
one of the effective techniques used during a fireball trap is to pause
every so often...
Anyways...
>>
>>--
>>Eu-Ming Lee (aka CyberGeek) el2...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
>>Guys with long sigs are just trying to compensate for something...
>---
>T. Cannon
--
Kenneth C. Wang | University Of Illinois Champaign-Urbana
| Internet: c-w...@uiuc.edu
Thomas Calvin Cannon
[ MUCH debate about Ryu's fireball trap & Guile's spinning backhand deleted ]
> by saying "whenever you're too close". Silly me. I simply assumed
> you would realize I was not talking about the wrong way to execute
> a fireball trap. If I were discussing means of escaping "the wrongly
> executed fireball trap" then your suggestion is truly a brilliant one,
> and all of us here on the net owe you a great debt. Unfortunately, when viewed in context, I'm afraid your remark does indeed fall into the
> "idiot" category (oops, this is a Politically correct group, how
> about mentally disadvantaged, got a nice ring to it). I only put those
> "no idiot responses" clauses into posts in an effort to avoid dealing
> with limited individuals such as yourself. Next time, be a lamb and
> don't respond when you don't know what you are talking about. Thank
> you Mr.T (Cannon).
Ah, pardon me. Well then, let me ask you, what exactly _is_ a brilliant
fireball trap? The way I see it, it can go one of two ways....
Before Ryu throws the fireball
------------------------------
1) He is in Guile's backhand range
2) He is beyond Guile's backhand range
Counters
--------
1) backhand Ryu silly. (trade damage)
2) Jump on sonic boom if you've got the charge for it.
Have you ever hd this done to you BTW? It's not an obvious strategy. 'Gee,
Ryu just threw a fireball, think I'll throw an arm out there.' ;) But it
_does_ work, so I really don't know what you're flaming about. Maybe
if you stopped the flaming and expained your nifty little trap I (and the Net)
could find out.
Seth James Killian
>[ MUCH debate about Ryu's fireball trap & Guile's spinning backhand deleted ]
>> by saying "whenever you're too close". Silly me. I simply assumed
>> you would realize I was not talking about the wrong way to execute
>> a fireball trap. If I were discussing means of escaping "the wrongly
>> executed fireball trap" then your suggestion is truly a brilliant one,
>> and all of us here on the net owe you a great debt. Unfortunately, when viewed in context, I'm afraid your remark does indeed fall into the
>> "idiot" category (oops, this is a Politically correct group, how
>> about mentally disadvantaged, got a nice ring to it). I only put those
>> "no idiot responses" clauses into posts in an effort to avoid dealing
>> with limited individuals such as yourself. Next time, be a lamb and
>> don't respond when you don't know what you are talking about. Thank
>> you Mr.T (Cannon).
>Ah, pardon me. Well then, let me ask you, what exactly _is_ a brilliant
>fireball trap? The way I see it, it can go one of two ways....
>Before Ryu throws the fireball
>------------------------------
>1) He is in Guile's backhand range
>2) He is beyond Guile's backhand range
>Counters
>--------
>1) backhand Ryu silly. (trade damage)
>2) Jump on sonic boom if you've got the charge for it.
I apologize for flaming you, but you persist in underestimating
either myself or the UIUC SF2 scene in general. The suggestion
you put forward is considered obvious here, and I can see now
that obvious is a very relative term. Backhand will not work.
End of story. Ryu is simply not in range. Not when he takes that
extra step to FB and not even if you take a step forward and then
try it. Actually, if you step forward, then you are technically
within range, but the fireball will always get there before the
backhand. Of course the footsweep (forward) is no better and the
razorkick won't help, as it too, alas, is out of range. I will
not repeat what Eu-Ming has already spelled out in his lengthy
explanation. I only add that I prefer to be a hair farther away
than his "markers" and this is only because I roundhouse as opposed
to DPing in general. Like I said before, you can only try to jump
forward before I throw the fireball, which is very risky. Jumping
straight up will allow you to avoid the current fireball, but when
you land you're right back where you started. Ken should not try
to fierce DP and catch Guile in the air, you stand a better chance
of inflicting more damage if you just wait for him to land and keep
the trap going (BTW Ken is not capable of executing the "inescapable
FB trap IMO, that extra quickness of Ryu is necessary to tighten the
noose). Boring? Perhaps. Effective? Definitely. I have used this
trap successfully against the best (Capcom tournament players, not
your local arcade's tough guy) and they too were at a loss for an
effective escape mechanism. It works.
Seth Killian
Dan Karipides
I play Ryu more than anyone, can DP at will, combo, etc, etc, etc. However,
I have a VERY difficult time beating a master Guile with Ryu. I have
tried the "deadly" fireball trap, but to no avail. So I'm asking, what
am I doing wrong?
Here's how Guile usually get's out of it:
I figure that I HAVE to fake sometime. If I don't Guile will eventually
time a jump and it is combo city. However, when I do fake, Guile simply
waits and charges for a sonic boom. The next fireball I throw gets blocked
by the sonic boom and Guile then backfists me through the sonic boom and
I get nailed. Am I to close? If being too close is the problem, I don't
see how the "fireball" trap can be kept up forever. Each fireball inches
Ryu a little bit closer and eventually, you will be too close.
Help would be appreciated.
-Dan
This Space for Rent
Keep doing volleys of fireballs one after the other. You don't have to
fake until AFTER Guile jumps straight up over one of your fireballs.
If Guile jumps forward over one of your fireballs without being "free",
you can nail him with a DP.
After he jumps straight up, he might be able to cancel your next fireball
with a sonic boom, so here's where you try to fake. Just wait a little
bit to see if he's going to jump. Then throw a slow fireball. If he
jumps forward over it, you can DP him. If he cancels it out with a sonic
boom and hits you with a backhand, throw a fierce fireball immediately
after he hits you. Guile will be back in the corner without a charge
and you can start throwing volleys of fireballs again.
>Help would be appreciated.
> -Dan
ca...@csbina.csubak.edu
I could be completely wrong (I don't know), but if Ken is that close,
wouldn't a short or jab between fireballs hit? (After the short, try a forward
or if you're up to it, a Sonic Boom) I've never seen anyone who could throw
fireballs without pausing long enough (1/16 sec or so) for a short to get in.
Or are they buffering, or really fast? (Can you buffer?) *Stiles
Seth James Killian
Yup. You're completely wrong. The whole idea here is that Ryu (Ken
can't do the perfect trap) is _not_close_ to Guile. There is no
advantage in being close, distance is key. This is well outlined
in the above posts, please read them. None (NONE!) of Guile's ground
based attacks are effective unless Ryu makes a mistake. My only
addition to what I have already said, is that along with strategic
pauses, the FB fake is essential. I don't mean moving the joystick
necessarily, rather, pressing a punch button will often fool a jumpy
Guile into jumping forward into DP death. You may say that as a
great Guile, you would not be fooled into jumping by a simple punch.
(Use jab or strong... fierce takes too long to recover from) I disagree Even a "master" (the term has been perverted don't you think?) Guile
is desparately looking for any window of escape after 9 or 10 blocked
FB's and just about any variation from the pattern will lure him in.
Seth Killian
AstralWolf
>Ah, pardon me. Well then, let me ask you, what exactly _is_ a brilliant
>fireball trap? The way I see it, it can go one of two ways....
>
>Before Ryu throws the fireball
>------------------------------
>1) He is in Guile's backhand range
>2) He is beyond Guile's backhand range
>
>Counters
>--------
>1) backhand Ryu silly. (trade damage)
>2) Jump on sonic boom if you've got the charge for it.
>
>Have you ever hd this done to you BTW? It's not an obvious strategy. 'Gee,
>Ryu just threw a fireball, think I'll throw an arm out there.' ;) But it
>_does_ work, so I really don't know what you're flaming about. Maybe
>if you stopped the flaming and expained your nifty little trap I (and the Net)
>could find out.
>>
>T. Cannon
>
>
You mention two spacings. Well, perhaps you should consider the ideal
spacings. Since it is Ryu who is on the offensive, these spacings are
going to be the case more often than not.
Case1: Ryu is just at the edge of backfist range.
So he simply mixes up slow and fast fireballs.
If Ryu tosses a slow and you block, and then tosses a
fast one, you CANNOT backfist, or do ANYTHING except block
the next one...try it and you will get hit. If you decide to
wait, and he tosses another slow one, back to the above
scenario. So you have to GUESS when he is going to throw
another slow one, in which case you can jump straight up...
I believe if you try to boom you get hit.
Now you are out of the trap as mentioned by Cybergeek, but
still in a position of disadvantage and in the guessing game.
Case2: Ryu is just out of backfist range. If Ryu sets up at this
spacing you are in real trouble. However I think at this
range you should at least be able to toss a boom while
getting hit by the fireball if Ryu throws two slow ones in a
row.
You say that escaping the trap is easy, and you are correct if the
person playing Ryu is incorrectly executing the trap. And this is most often
the case since it is NOT by any means easy to execute it correctly...at
least for most players. To execute it correctly you have to set up at
the right spacing, and then toss fireballs so that IMMEDIATELY after one
hits, another is on the way...sort of how computer Ryu does when he is
in crazed fireball mode. Only you make it worse, by mixing speeds up.
If you think your opponent is waiting til after you throw a fast FB,
then don't, just throw slow one after slow one. (This should be the
default choice, unless you think he is going to try a move after blocking
the first fireball) Because Ryu is at the verge of ending the trap when
he finally throws a fast FB, since then his opponent has a split
second to react, and outguess him.
AstralWolf
the theory of spacing. Let us look at this first for the case of Guile.
Guile is at a position of advantage when he is close enough to connect
his forward kick and backfast, but out of range of his opponents sweeps/kicks
etc. If you watch a good Guile you will notice that this is where he
operates when he is succesful. After attacking from this range, he is now
just out of reach of you with his attacks and is at a position of
disadvantage, however by tossing a boom, he can buy himself some time, and
get back into this advantage. This is when his opponent must capitalize.
If you watch, or play Guile you will that this is the most difficult
point in his attack, and requires quick reflexes as well as knowledge
of what move to use when. Often it is where Guile loses the advantage, and
must play defensively until he can regain the advantageous spacing.
Now let's turn to the FB trap. When properly executed, Ryu/Ken are out
of range of Guiles attacks, but just by a step. As mentioned above, this is
where Guile is at a disadvantage. Were this attempted in the middle of the
screen Guile could walk backwards and get out of his disadvatageous spacing,
but he is stuck in the corner at a spacing that is his weakest in the
game. By tossing a volley of FBs, Ken/Ryu (Ryu is better because of the
quickness ie you can't jump over a FB, whereas you can react to a FB and
jump vs Ken) force Guile to stay in this spacing. All the while whittling
away his energy. When done right, Guile will only have split seconds where
he can do ANYTHING. If Ryu throws a slow fast combo, you MUST block the fast
one...if you try ANYTHING else, you will get hit. So, Guile must guess
when two slow ones in a row are coming. OK, suppose he does...
He can't jump in or he will get DPed because you can't jump until recovering
from blocking the FB. He can't toss a sonic boom or the FB will hit him
either before he gets it off (if Ryu is in the correct position) or as
he gets it off (Ryu is a tad too far away). In the second case, you are
almost out of the trap, since Ryu has to deal with that boom, and while he does
you must quickly capitalize. But if Ryu was spaced right you have no
alternative but to jump straight up. Now you are out of it, but still
at the same spacing of disadvantage. Now you have to OUTGUESS Ryu to get out
of this improper spacing. But if you do you are out...Congrats...
So let's see, first you have to GUESS when a slow slow FB combo is coming.
Then you have to GUESS what Ryu is going to do after you jump straight up.
Against an opponent who mixes it up this can be pretty damn hard.
If we just take statistics and consider only slow and fast, and not medium
fireballs, that means you can actually jump over a FB half the time, the
other half you get nailed trying to jump up. Now you have to guess what
Ryu will do. If you do nothing you are stuck in the trap, but if you react
too soon, he will DP you. But let's say you are good at guessing and can
correctly outguess him half the time. Now you have a fifty percent chance
of getting out at this point. Hmm let's see 50% of guessing slow slow,
50% of guessing after the jump. That means you will be able to get out
of the trap 25% of the time EVEN IF YOU KNOW WHAT TO DO! If you have never
seen the trap, then you odds are dismal. But remember even if you do get out
odds are you were wrong 3 times before you got out, and that can add up
to about half your energy bar or more! Now do you see why it is so effective?
Even if you get out, you have been nailed for over half your energy and must
beat a full-health Ryu. Not the easiest thing to do if you are equal in
skill to the Ryu, or less skilled.
I hope this clears some things up...
Alain Hoang
I think I've seen enough of this crap about Guile getting incinerated
by a fireball trap. Obviously you've never seen a TRUE master Guile player who
can boom really quick. If not then I can probably say the Fireball Trap does
work but you forget ONE lame thing Guile can MOVE RIGHT after a Sonic Boom
and can get in close enough so that he can take a couple more fireballs from this
"trap" power up for a boom and cancel it. YES I agree slow fast fireball combo
will not work but after the fast one there is NOW way in hell a GOOD Guile
player will sit on his tail and wait for more fireballs. A sonic boom comes out
and then he's right behind it.... then the Fireball trap gets all messed up,
please I'd LOVE for you to try that Fireball trap on our master Guile player here
He eats MOST Ryu players except the Ryu master for lunch.... Fireball traps are
really not that effective against a smart Guile player. As for me it would
probably hold me alot better than our master Guile possibly maybe I'd fubar it
and get trashed but you forget Guile can move RIGHT after the Boom and can inch
forward slowly but surely to Ryu because EVEN Ryu has that pause time after
fireballs. So perhaps for Honda I'd say the trap works but not for Guile....
Seth James Killian
You would say it does not work on smart Guiles... and you would be
wrong. You have proven (to me at least) your relative lack of any
real skill or knowledge with your previous posts. This is just
another bit of complete wrongness ala Alain Hoang. You are, by your
statement calling me a fool or newbie or whatever by your assertion
that I "just haven't seen a Guile who can boom really quick". Simply
put... Bullshit. It seems to me that you are one of those tough
guys who is really cool and knows this awesome guy at his local arcade
and you basically just talk a lot of crap. What you say is wrong. I
have used this on Capcom tourney players with great success. If these
guys can't "boom quick enough" and they are playing national level
tournaments, then you must just be the best anywhere! Oooh! Can I
hold your jacket while you play? You are, technically speaking a
"jive turkey". You talk and talk, say nothing, and no one here can
ultimately disprove you since we can't actually paly you and stick
your "King Guile" into the trap. So talk your trash (it is, a public
forum) but for the record, you are a fool.
Seth Killian g
Laivee Yang
get out of...especially when the Ken or Ryu players are masters
at it...However getting out of it isn't to difficult if you're
lucky and jump at Ken or Ryu when they are just about to do the
FB....here are some of the things I do if I get into that situation
1. Block FB then walk after SB and backfist
2. same as 1. but instead of backfist, jump in with forward kick
while charging...if they DP you, be ready to bladekick right
after you land...if this works, you will hit their head
and fly over the FB (same theory as bladekicking ken or ryu
in the beginning if they are foolish enough to do a FB)
3. or as I mentioned before predict when Ken or Ryu will do
their FB and then jump in before they shoot it.
I can't say that they will always work since it does take some luck
from you and mistakes from Ken and Ryu players...
Also one thing that I hate about Ken and Ryu...that is that nothing
can be their DP head to head unless you wait until they DP and
then throw them....:)
Laivee Yang...
Erorppn Xrzavgm
|> Yup. You're completely wrong. The whole idea here is that Ryu (Ken
|> can't do the perfect trap) is _not_close_ to Guile. There is no
|> advantage in being close, distance is key. This is well outlined
|> in the above posts, please read them. None (NONE!) of Guile's ground
|> based attacks are effective unless Ryu makes a mistake. My only
|> addition to what I have already said, is that along with strategic
|> pauses, the FB fake is essential. I don't mean moving the joystick
|> necessarily, rather, pressing a punch button will often fool a jumpy
|> Guile into jumping forward into DP death. You may say that as a
|> great Guile, you would not be fooled into jumping by a simple punch.
|> (Use jab or strong... fierce takes too long to recover from) I disagree Even a "master" (the term has been perverted don't you think?) Guile
|> is desparately looking for any window of escape after 9 or 10 blocked
|> FB's and just about any variation from the pattern will lure him in.
Can't Guile just jump "back" (meaning keeping the sonic boom charged) and throwing
it when he lands? Then backhand, sweep, whatever....
tx...@isuvax.iastate.edu
....
>
> You would say it does not work on smart Guiles... and you would be
> wrong. You have proven (to me at least) your relative lack of any
> real skill or knowledge with your previous posts. This is just
> another bit of complete wrongness ala Alain Hoang. You are, by your
> statement calling me a fool or newbie or whatever by your assertion
> that I "just haven't seen a Guile who can boom really quick". Simply
> put... Bullshit. It seems to me that you are one of those tough
> guys who is really cool and knows this awesome guy at his local arcade
> and you basically just talk a lot of crap. What you say is wrong. I
> have used this on Capcom tourney players with great success. If these
> guys can't "boom quick enough" and they are playing national level
> tournaments, then you must just be the best anywhere! Oooh! Can I
> hold your jacket while you play? You are, technically speaking a
> "jive turkey". You talk and talk, say nothing, and no one here can
> ultimately disprove you since we can't actually paly you and stick
> your "King Guile" into the trap. So talk your trash (it is, a public
> forum) but for the record, you are a fool.
>
>
area. But i am saying that the fireball trap is overrated. I like many other
Guile players have been watching this post go on and on and on without thinking
much of it. But as usual i have succombed to my insatible desire to add my
2 cents to the forum. Hardly any well developed combo by a "master" is easily
escapable for opponents that are as closely matched as Ryu and Guile. Although
some characters may be considered more powerful than others each character
has his or her favorable and unfavorable matchups. When i am confrnted with
one of those Ryu players that just likes to fireball trap people I usually
countered them with a variety of manuvers. Sometimes i jump straight up.
Sometimes i block. Sometimes i throw a sonic boom when they throw a fireball
so that i can backslap them. If they are close enough i may forward sweep
them. I's not very open-minded of anyone to say that any one tactic or
strategie can't be countered by another character. Just like Ryu has problems
with Guile's sonic boom follow technique. What can he do? That again depends
on the situation. If he tries to Hurrricane kick he may get uppercutted. If
he jumps straight up he may get kicked out of the air or sept when he landss.
If he blocks he may get thrown. Then you have to throw in all sorts of other
variables. All and all, any tactic may be 100% effective or 0% effective. It
just depends on the matchup and the player. Nothing is written in stone.
Seth Killian g
Mark Maestas
I have been following this discussion and I just want to comment on this
fireball trap thing. First off, I have never been caught in a fireball
trap that I couldn't get out of (maybe because no one I've played has really
been able to do a good fireball trap). I just want to add my $2.00 worth
and hope that I can receive some intelligent answers to my question(s).
Okay, if Guile gets trapped, which means he has to block
at least 2 fireballs (if he's smart) and then can jump over the next fireball
or block again or do a sonic boom.
Assuming the following conditions for the corner trap:
Ryu is out of range for Guile to Backhand (Fierce), low Forward, or
even Slice kick.
Guile is on the far side of the fighting area (ie in a corner).
Here are some scenarios :
To set it up, Ryu has just thrown a slow fireball followed by a fast
fireball. Both of which must be blocked to receive the minimal amount of
damage possible. Now, Ryu can throw another fireball or do some faking in
the hope that Guile will jump at Ryu.
If Ryu throws another Fireball, Guile can Sonic Boom-Backhand (if the
Boom was thrown at about the same time) OR he can just jump up or more
preferrably jump back (to keep the Boom charged). The backhand can
connect due to Ryu being stuck with his hands extended. If Ryu throws
a fast Fireball right away, it can be jumped or blocked. Either way, Guile
is now ahead on the exchange, trading a few blocked fireballs for a big
Fierce to Ryu.
If the Fireball is
jumped, then Guile can whip out a Sonic Boom or wait to see if Ryu will jump
at him (thinking a Sonic will be thrown). If Ryu jumps, then whoever can
hit the other wins. Guile's best chance for this is a Roundhouse in the air
or a low Fierce, IMO. If Guile opts for the Sonic Boom, he can block or get
hit if it was anticipated, but if not, the Boom is followed in to Ryu. Ryu
can throw a Fireball (stupid), jump up (and be hit with a Backhand or even
trade), block, or Hurricane Kick (countered by low Fierce or just ducked), or
jump back (but this just makes you choose one of the previous options).
In either of these cases, Ryu has just lost his position and must now fight
to gain it again. This is usually achieved by puching Guile into a corner
and/or knocking him down.
I guess my question is, doesn't this work to get Guile out of the trap,
and if not, why not? What I'm trying to say is that this isn't inescapable
(and I don't mean like 1 in 1000). For those that say "if properly executed
it is" then Guile's escape "if properly executed" is achievable. I think it
just boils down to the two players' respective predictive ability. Whoever
can outguess the other wins, not whoever can use the trap wins. If you don't
see my point or even don't see a point at all, sorry you wasted your time.
Mark "Terminator" Maestas
mae...@cs.arizona.edu
"Hasta la vista, baby." - [8^!
tx...@isuvax.iastate.edu
__This post is bull. If Ryu isnt close to Guile then guile has enough of a time
window to jump over or even nullify the fireball. Your argument is a circular
one. If the Guile player doesnt make a mistake then Ryu never gets a chance to
perform this "trap" as you'd like to call it. I have seen Guiles corner trap
performed on Ryu just as much as i have seen Ryu's thing performed on Guile.
To say that Guile has no counter for this is ludicrous. If Ryu is at any
distance futher away than the lenght of my attack then i have time to perform
any move that Guile has to avoid bieng hit by any more than 2 of Ryu's
fireballs. Ryu's dp doent come out that far. If i jump straight up when Ryu
does his fireball 9 times out of 10 he cant hit me with anything other than a
flying roundhouse or fierce or whatever. There is a world of possiblilities
for Guile when confronted with this so -called trap, so plese dont say that
there is nothing that he can do. Laterally i think Guile is faster than Ryu
which again opens up a plethora of scenaros for this encounter. Not that i cant
be trapped in the corner by Ryu from time to time, its just not as effective
as you would like to think it is.
Jason Gregory
Iowa State U.
Thomas Calvin Cannon
>ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU (Thomas Calvin Cannon) writes:
>
> noose). Boring? Perhaps. Effective? Definitely. I have used this
> trap successfully against the best (Capcom tournament players, not
> your local arcade's tough guy) and they too were at a loss for an
> effective escape mechanism. It works.
>
> Seth Killian
As far as I know, there was only one OFFICIAL Capcom tounament, the CA
state champoinships. Gee, now I know of two. Anyone else out there
competed in a different CAPCOM sponsored tournament?
ON A RELATED NOTE: Gee, you guys are right, a hackhand won't get out
of a Ryu F-ball trap. My problem was with the 'markers.' (Been standing
too close) This is a nifty trick to keep in your back pocket, but I avoid
using it too much, as it can _really_ piss off your opponent. Good trick
for tourney's though (As you mentioned).
>>> Seth Killian >>
---
T. Cannon
(who wants CAPCOM to sponsor a national tournament =( )
Seth James Killian
Since the sonic boom seems to be a major factor in the majority of
your proposed escapes, I will try to deal with it now. From the
proper spacing (ambigous I know, but it's hard to measure on the
screen in actual inches, I never seem to have brought my ruler, it's
about 3/4 of a screen away from the cornered Guile, maybe a little less
Guile will be able to jump a fireball (while charging up) and toss a
sonic boom right in front of Ryu's next incoming FB. The FB will not
hit Guile, it will just cancel the boom, right in front of Guile's
face. This leaves Guile free to move for a moment. Jumping seems
to be pretty obviously wrong at this point, since Ryu will have also recovered and be waiting for Guile to try something. The thing
most people try is the backhand you mention. I don't know if I've
made this sufficiently clear, but Ryu is far enough a way that Guile
will have to take at least one step to put himself in range for the
backhand. As soon as Ryu sees Guile walking forward, he FB's again.
Guile will be beginning the backhand and be in the middle of the first
animation sequence when the FB connects, ending the backhand before it
makes contact. We have some truly excellent Guile's here and the one's
that post here should be able to attest to this. As a sidenote for
those of you who may be doubting the veracity of the UIUC claims that
we are all of the highest master calibre, look at it statistically.
We have about 35000 students age 18-23 as undergraduates. This age group is probably most representative of Video game players in general
(the good ones anyway). Say that only 100 in every 1000 have ever heard of the game. Say that only 30 of those have played. Aw fuck it. At
the student union there is one SF2:CE. It is the only working SF2 machine within five miles and the other one is at a crappy mall that is full of kids and it only works sporadically. Anyhow, the point is
that everybody plays at the union. Out of those 35000, there are about
15 (maybe less) players that have any chance at all of winning. Out of
these 15, there are about 4 or 5 guys who can be found on the machine
at any given time. We are generally not moved. Ever. Out of 35000
about 4 or 5. This is the breeding ground that spawns champions.
Seth Killian ky0
Crying Freeman
I think the point isn't that Ryu's fireball trap is COMPLETELY ABSOLUTELY
IMPOSSIBLE to escape for Guile, just VERY hard. Anyways, I don't think
anyone would disagree that "pinning" Guile with Ryu's fireball is the
most effective strategy against Guile... Ryu's fireballs when you throw them
from the "pin" range will NOT allow you to throw a sonic boom. You will be often
be hit by a fast fireball AS your sonic boom is coming out.
As you said, your Guile master eats MOST Ryu's except the Ryu master for lunch.
Maybe, your Ryu players don't know how to pin properly.
BTW, I was talking to another "master" Guile player and determined that
the reason Ryu can pin and Ken can't is that Ken has a bigger nose (that
you can hit with the backfist.)
Anyways...
Seth James Killian
I'm not trying to write anything in stone. The basic point is that the
FB trap forces Guile into a guessing game. Guile has little to gain if
he succeeds in escaping and everything to lose if he cannot. Basically
I have been trying to clear the air with regards to the numerous and
flat out wrong escapes forwarded by everyone. These escapes (yes I have read and played them all) do not work. What works is outguessing Ryu
and jumping in while he's in the middle of a FB. It is a mind game, and Guile is on the short end of the stick. That's all it is.
P.S.- It's not so easy to just take that first FB, take the second fast
one and jump. What if I, as Ryu, decide to throw TWO slow FB's and then the fast one? If you try to jump the second slow one, you will land
on it because it is moving slowly where you expected it to fly past.
Guile not only has to guess when to jump in after he has temporarily
escaped via boom or whatever, he also has to guess when to jump the
FB in the first place. I usually start by throwing two slows (sometimes three) and then the fast. They almost always try to jump after the
second slow and get hit by the fast one. I know... YOU wouldn't fall
for it. Whatever. It's all a mind game in Ryu's advantage. That in
itself makes it a worthwhile technique. End of line.
Seth Killian
> Seth Killian g
Robert Suh
First of all, the FB trap sucks. Simply put, if the Ryu Player is worth any-
thing, the FB trap is what they are looking for. (Against Guile).
I've been on the receiving end of some, but not to the point of having 1/2 my
energy destroyed by it, maybe 1/3.
Anyways, to get to my point, the problem with the FB trap with Ryu, is that it
is VERY hard to get a GOOD Guile into that position. The way I see it, Guile
is the one initiating the attack from the start of the round, and it is ALOT
easier to push a Ryu into a corner, than it is to push Guile.
Another point people seem to be forgetting is that Guile has that great
(your favorite, and mine...) combo. ONE mis-timed (albeit, pretty luck for
Guile.) FB, and it's combo-city. ONE mis-timed FB, and YOUR're going to be
hit with the Flying Fierce-Fierce-Sonic Boom, which will dizzy the opponent.
From there, you do another Flying Fierce-Fierce-Sonic Boom-Backhand combo, and
the Ryu player is about half-a-throw away from dying.
Again, I see it as very difficult for a Ryu player (I play both, so I think I
have a feel for them both), to push Guile into the Fireball-trap position,
the only way I see that it is possible is if the Guile makes a mistake, or Ryu
throws 'em into the corner. All I ever see (and do) in Guile/Ryu matches is
Guile following a slow-boom and REACTING to what Ryu does.
for example
If ..
Ryu does a hurricane kick over the Slow-Boom, Ryu WILL get knocked
back down to the ground. From there, Guile has probably already thrown
another slow-boom, and you're back to square one.
If .. Ryu FB's, and if he's close enough, he gets Back-handed.
Jump's backwards, you're still on square one.
Jump's UP, youre going to be sweeped on the way down.
Just Block, you'll either be attempeted to be thrown, or
foot-sweeped, or foot-sweeped and then followed
by another slow-boom.
(here's the tricky part) ..
If Ryu jumps TOWARD Guile, Guile has three things at his disposal.
a) Crouching Fierce, if you are UNDERNEATh (Important) Ryu.
b) If you are kinda far away from where Ryu is going to land
you can try to forward sweep as they land.
c) If you are between the two-ranges from above, you can crouch
and hit Strong. (It should knock 'em out of the air).
Of course, other things can happen during the scope of the game (ie: Ryu DP's
your leg, you get trapped in the corner, etc..) But for the most part, I
envision Guile as the perpatraitor, in that he's the one that set's the 'tone'
of the game.
Anyways, this is getting lengthy..
WEST JASON BRUCE
You guys think Ryu's FB trap is effective, eh? One word - DHALSIM.
Dhalsim's own special bread of FB trap is the BEST by far. Some of the
reasons why.
* During the part where Guile "jumps straight up" over your FB
Dhalsim can forward kick him!
Or fierce punch him as he lands.
* When Guile is free and goes for a sonic boom to get position.
You can slide, knock him down, and strat over.
* During the "am I going to FB, or are you going to jump?" phase.
During this "outguess" phase Dhalsim has many more weapons.
He can fierce punch Guile as Guile sonic booms (if he does) this will HIT.
He can fake a FB. If guile jumps, forward kick. If he doesn't, punch him.
If He sonic booms, middle punch UNDER it [hits] the float up and kick
down on him [hits] then forward kick when you land [hits if he jumped],
then start again.
Dhalsim has endless variations and eats Guile for breakfast. I even came up
with a cool "sorta" combo. Can anyone help me perfect the following:
I slow fireball. Then as he jumps in I forward kick him out - then fierce
punch him as he lands [2 hits] and then as he falls back he HITS the FB!
It looks so damn cool. As falling in flames he gets up stunned. Sometimes
you need to hit em with a roundhouse first. This works on Sagat most often.
Any pointers to get this to work?
Thanks, in advance.
Ciao...
- Jason
* Dhalsim rules - with some close air defense he would be unbeatable.
Brian Odom
> You guys think Ryu's FB trap is effective, eh? One word - DHALSIM.
>Dhalsim's own special bread of FB trap is the BEST by far. Some of the
>reasons why.
>* During the part where Guile "jumps straight up" over your FB
> Dhalsim can forward kick him!
> Or fierce punch him as he lands.
Gotta be careful with the fierce punch. If Guile does a jumping forward then
the punch will be very difficult to time correctly.
>* When Guile is free and goes for a sonic boom to get position.
> You can slide, knock him down, and strat over.
Depending on the distance. I usually try to stay far away, so I usually don't
rely on the roundhouse slide unless I know he's gonna follow it in. The reason
I stay a little farther back is that sometime or another Guile will outguess
you. (You go for a fireball as he jumping over it) and I don't want him to
hit me.
>* During the "am I going to FB, or are you going to jump?" phase.
> During this "outguess" phase Dhalsim has many more weapons.
> He can fierce punch Guile as Guile sonic booms (if he does) this will HIT.
> He can fake a FB. If guile jumps, forward kick. If he doesn't, punch him.
> If He sonic booms, middle punch UNDER it [hits] the float up and kick
> down on him [hits] then forward kick when you land [hits if he jumped],
> then start again.
I gotta try that crouching strong. Fakes are a good thing to use.
>Dhalsim has endless variations and eats Guile for breakfast. I even came up
>with a cool "sorta" combo. Can anyone help me perfect the following:
>I slow fireball. Then as he jumps in I forward kick him out - then fierce
>punch him as he lands [2 hits] and then as he falls back he HITS the FB!
>It looks so damn cool. As falling in flames he gets up stunned. Sometimes
>you need to hit em with a roundhouse first. This works on Sagat most often.
> Any pointers to get this to work?
It won't work consistently for it's nowhere near a combo. After you forward
kick, the punch can be blocked or hit for a trade. I've done stuff like that
too. But, don't expect consistent results.
>* Dhalsim rules - with some close air defense he would be unbeatable.
you betcha. or if he did more damage.
--
Brian T Odom
"We are all manufacturers -- some make good, others make trouble, and still
others make excuses."
Tim Morris
>>How is Guile supposed to escape a competent fireball corner trap on CE?
>>The only time I have trouble with Ryu/Ken (Classic) or Ken (TCE) is
>>when they get me trapped in the corner and just go all out with fast
>>fireballs (close range). Guile ends up blocking for 99.8% of the time.
>>Jumping is hopeless - even if you fluke it without getting hit, Guile
>>floats through the air with "I want to eat your dragon punch" stencilled
>>on his forehead. So jumping is no good (even straight up will get you
>>DP'ed by Ken on TCE) , I can't seem to get a sonic boom off, and the
>>razor kick won't get over a fireball that's right on top of you. Is
>>there a way out for hapless Guile?
> A well timed razor kick will both hit Ken/Ryu when they toss the FB, and
>porbably get you through the FB.
This _won't_ get you out, as I mentioned. Guile drops his block for the
barest instant before blocking the next fireball. Even if you did manage
to razor kick in that instant, there's no way Guile would escape getting
hit and aborting the kick.
--
Tim Morris
Tim Morris
>>> The only time I have trouble with Ryu/Ken (Classic) or Ken (TCE) is
>>> when they get me trapped in the corner and just go all out with fast
>>> fireballs (close range). Guile ends up blocking for 99.8% of the time.
>>> Jumping is hopeless - even if you fluke it without getting hit, Guile
>>> floats through the air with "I want to eat your dragon punch" stencilled
>>> on his forehead. So jumping is no good (even straight up will get you
>>> DP'ed by Ken on TCE) , I can't seem to get a sonic boom off, and the
>>> razor kick won't get over a fireball that's right on top of you. Is
>>> there a way out for hapless Guile?
>I could be completely wrong (I don't know), but if Ken is that close,
>wouldn't a short or jab between fireballs hit? (After the short, try a forward
>or if you're up to it, a Sonic Boom) I've never seen anyone who could throw
>fireballs without pausing long enough (1/16 sec or so) for a short to get in.
>Or are they buffering, or really fast? (Can you buffer?) *Stiles
No, Ken/Ryu is out of jab range. You have to see it done to get the idea,
but Guile is _really_ pressed for time to do anything - he's literally
blocking most of the time. Not even time to sonic boom. You can
just manage to clear a fireball when jumping forwards, but even Ken has
plenty of time to DP you without using fakes.
--
Tim Morris
This Space for Rent
>Can't Guile just jump "back" (meaning keeping the sonic boom charged) and throwing
>it when he lands? Then backhand, sweep, whatever....
As Ryu, simply throw a slow fireball after he jumps straight up over your
fireball. Whether or not Guile is charged is irrelevant. He'll either
block the slow fireball after coming down from the jump or get hit by it
as he tries to sonic boom.
It doesn't matter how 'quick' you are with the sonic boom. You can beat
computer Guile the same way, and he throws sonic booms faster than Ryu
can throw fireballs. Of course, the computer has no brain... The point
is that it's hard to get out of because of its nature--- the positioning,
closing of Guile's 'exit' windows, and the psychological advantage of
having Guile in the corner. When you play against the computer Guile,
you can win just by proper positioning alone. Computer Guile opens
'exit' windows for himself that human players cannot. Unfortunately,
he rarely takes advantage of them. When you play against a human Guile,
you have all three factors to your advantage when they're in the fireball
trap.
Of course, it IS possible to get out of the fireball trap. It's just
very very difficult. If I were playing Guile, I'd rather get ticked
than stuck in a Ryu fireball trap. There's a much higher chance of
getting out of a tick than a fireball trap. So all of you who complain
that ticking is 'cheap', learn the fireball trap and discover what
true cheapness is.
Seth James Killian
This thing you are describing also works well on Zangief. While
you are pissing him off with your forward, strong, FB routine, he
will eventually try to lariat through your FB. If it is a slow FB
then you can fierce punch Z's legs to knock him out of the lariat.
He will simultaneously be hit by the FB. Far from a combo but
kinda cool anyhow.
>It won't work consistently for it's nowhere near a combo. After you forward
>kick, the punch can be blocked or hit for a trade. I've done stuff like that
>too. But, don't expect consistent results.
>>* Dhalsim rules - with some close air defense he would be unbeatable.
>you betcha. or if he did more damage.
Actually, Dhalsim does have an excellent air defense (at least vs
Ken/Ryu). Ever try the standing jab? At close range, it will
always beat a Ken/Ryu arial attack. Not much damage but you have
'em where you want 'em again.
P.S.- Dhalsim still has trouble against a top notch Blanka and
he is shishkabob for a patient Vega.
Seth Killian
djt...@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Y'know, one guy at my local arcade has figured this out too damn well. The only
counter I find was to stay the bloody hell away from the edges. Failing that,
all I could do was to use Vega and pray I'd grab him ASAP somehow.
Any easier way to handle this?
Laivee Yang
it's almost impossible to get out of a FB trap by Ken or Ryu.....
If you ask me, it's a lot harder to get out of if you were pin
to the corner by Guile......:)
Laivee Yang
tx...@isuvax.iastate.edu
Guile or has played against a good guile player would realize that there are
alot more weapons to Guile than just backfists and sonic booms. I have used
a short Razorkick to kick out of many fb traps. "So what if he fakes?"
Who says that fake will work. If Guile throws a sonic boom and you didnt
throw a fireball most times he is out of the so_called trap. If Guile jumps
immediately after the boom and you ended up blocking it Guile now has
RYu blocking if he followsthe sonic boom with a flying forward and 2 crouching
forwards in which case he is again charged for another sonic boom.
Thats just one scenario. We could go on and on. There are too many good even
greazt Guile players out there for you'all to be saying that this crap is as
effective to one Guile player as it is to the next. Thats like saying Ryu
has no escape from Guile's Sonic boom, forward sweep/throw/upside down kick/
in the corner trap. Its too general. You guys do bye all means have the right
to say and do wahtever you want, but its better to be thought a fool than
to open your and prove it to everyone. Think about what you are saying before
you make sweeping generalizations about the skill and strategies of other
Sf2 players. It is possible for a given character to defeat the given tactic
or strategie of any given character. Remembering this will make you a more
well rounded Sf2 player. Underestimating people could = ( -$0.25)
_______________________________--------------------------------------------
This Space for Rent
>---You obviously dont play against alot of good guile players. Anyone who plays
>Guile or has played against a good guile player would realize that there are
>alot more weapons to Guile than just backfists and sonic booms. I have used
>a short Razorkick to kick out of many fb traps. "So what if he fakes?"
>Who says that fake will work. If Guile throws a sonic boom and you didnt
>throw a fireball most times he is out of the so_called trap. If Guile jumps
>immediately after the boom and you ended up blocking it Guile now has
>RYu blocking if he followsthe sonic boom with a flying forward and 2 crouching
>forwards in which case he is again charged for another sonic boom.
>Thats just one scenario. We could go on and on. There are too many good even
>greazt Guile players out there for you'all to be saying that this crap is as
>effective to one Guile player as it is to the next. Thats like saying Ryu
>has no escape from Guile's Sonic boom, forward sweep/throw/upside down kick/
>in the corner trap. Its too general. You guys do bye all means have the right
>to say and do wahtever you want, but its better to be thought a fool than
>to open your and prove it to everyone. Think about what you are saying before
>you make sweeping generalizations about the skill and strategies of other
>Sf2 players. It is possible for a given character to defeat the given tactic
>or strategie of any given character. Remembering this will make you a more
>well rounded Sf2 player. Underestimating people could = ( -$0.25)
Please people, delete some of the previous posts before posting your own.
Well, the question of who's better and who's not can be answered
very simply. If we assume that we're all competent players who have a firm
understanding of positioning, combos, throws, etc, we can discuss strategy
on the net. So maybe the Guile's here all suck. Or maybe all the Ryu's
at your arcade all suck. Who knows?
Well, if you tell me how to get out of the fireball trap, then we can try
it to see if it works. I've already given you instructions on how to
start your own fireball trap using Ryu. So go ahead and try it. Report
your results.
As for who's right and who's wrong. I contend that we're right. We've
seen the fireball trap and we know how to do it. You haven't seen it
before. How do I know? It's because you propose techniques of getting
out of the fireball trap which simply don't work. You can't sonic boom
out of it. You can't short razor kick out of it. I already explained
WHY you couldn't do it in my very long post about how to execute the
fireball trap. It's ridiculous for you to tell me what Guile can do
to get out of the fireball trap when I already listed those EXACT moves
as ones which DON'T work!
The problem here is that people keep insisting that the backhand works,
or throwing a sonic boom works, or a short or roundhouse or any razor
kick works. They don't. We don't even go and field test it because
we've tried those things SO many times before. They just don't work.
We're not saying, "Hey cool! There might be a way out of the fireball
trap, but let's not try it at all!" We're saying, "We're not even
going to try that because we've tried it so many times in the past
that we KNOW that it doesn't work."
You say that perhaps the Guile players here are not "good" enough or are
somehow lacking. Perhaps. I won't disagree with that. What I _DO_
disagree with are your proposed techniques of escaping the fireball
trap. There is NO Guile which can perform those methods of escape
because the window of opportunity is not there.
I have seen some people on the net confirm and complain about the
fireball trap, so I know that it can develop independently of net-access.
And the ones who have seen it agree that it's a bitch to get out, but
not impossible. That is also my contention. However, please stop
telling us that you can do "this" or "that" to get out when you can't.
As I mentioned in my previous post about setting up the fireball trap,
there is only ONE way for Guile to get out. Jump straight up over
a fireball and then ANTICIPATE. Either throw a sonic boom or jump
forward. The problem here is that Ryu has the psychological advantage.
And when you have players who can read minds, it makes it VERY difficult
for Guile to escape.
Seth James Killian
Well first off, no one asked you. But it is a public forum, so here
it comes again. More Guile rhetoric w/regards to the FB trap. Guile's
corner trap can indeed be tough against a great Guile. The FB trap
is still tougher. Have you ever seen a Ryu Sonic boomed to DEATH in
Guile's trap? Probably not. Regardless, this is not the point.
Ryu's trap is a bitch. Guile's can be too. Please make some constructive input on the thread we are currently discussing or just
sit down and listen.
Seth Killian
> Laivee Yang
For Sale By Owner
> Well first off, no one asked you. But it is a public forum, so here
> it comes again. More Guile rhetoric w/regards to the FB trap. Guile's
> corner trap can indeed be tough against a great Guile. The FB trap
> is still tougher. Have you ever seen a Ryu Sonic boomed to DEATH in
> Guile's trap? Probably not. Regardless, this is not the point.
> Ryu's trap is a bitch. Guile's can be too. Please make some constructive input on the thread we are currently discussing or just
> sit down and listen.
Regarding the Sonic Boom trap vs. Ryu: If some guy/gal trapped a Ryu in the
corner with Guile, the Ryu player would have to be a fucking idiot. The
Hurricane Kick kicks Guile's ass!
Caine
Schneider
"Die by my hand" -Metallica (the perfect quote for Ken)
"Die by my...fireball?" -A new one for Ryu BTW, Ken is awesome.
Justin Anderson
>
Two good choices are- The headbut, or if your directly below them(walk
under), use the jab button....Takes off no damage, yet looks cool and
gets them away!
>you betcha. or if he did more damage.
really!
>--
>Brian T Odom
>
>"We are all manufacturers -- some make good, others make trouble, and still
>others make excuses."
AstralWolf
> I think I've seen enough of this crap about Guile getting incinerated
>by a fireball trap. Obviously you've never seen a TRUE master Guile player who
>can boom really quick. If not then I can probably say the Fireball Trap does
>work but you forget ONE lame thing Guile can MOVE RIGHT after a Sonic Boom
>and can get in close enough so that he can take a couple more fireballs from this
>"trap" power up for a boom and cancel it. YES I agree slow fast fireball combo
>will not work but after the fast one there is NOW way in hell a GOOD Guile
>player will sit on his tail and wait for more fireballs. A sonic boom comes out
Perhaps you don't understand...If Ryu throws a slow FB followed by a fast
one, Guile CANNOT do ANYTHING, can't backfist, can't boom, can't jump...
NOTHING if he blocked the slow one. Should he try ANY move he will get hit
by the FB.
Secondly, from the right distance, even with the slow slow, Guile
CANNOT cancel the FB, he can at best toss a sonic boom while getting hit,
otherwise he will get hit and the boom won't come out. The only option
Guile has is to jump straight up. Master or not, this trap requires
guesswork and luck to get out of...
AstralWolf
>in the corner trap. Its too general. You guys do bye all means have the right
>to say and do wahtever you want, but its better to be thought a fool than
>to open your and prove it to everyone. Think about what you are saying before
>you make sweeping generalizations about the skill and strategies of other
>Sf2 players. It is possible for a given character to defeat the given tactic
>or strategie of any given character. Remembering this will make you a more
>well rounded Sf2 player. Underestimating people could = ( -$0.25)
I just figured I would rearrange your response to offer a little clarity.
Read the latter part (which I put above, and left at the end). I believe
you say something about thinking about what you say before making
generalizations about other SF2 players?
>---You obviously dont play against alot of good guile players. Anyone who plays
What is this? I sense a bit of a hypocrite here... We obviously don't
play against any good Guiles. I beleive Seth had a post earlier that presented
the case that the SF2 players here are among the best in the nation, so I
won't waste time trying to argue that here...I will just take it as fact, and
say that for you to think that there are no good Guile players here, you
must be an idiot. Plain, simple fact.
>Guile or has played against a good guile player would realize that there are
>alot more weapons to Guile than just backfists and sonic booms. I have used
>a short Razorkick to kick out of many fb traps. "So what if he fakes?"
[a lot more already covered junk deleted]
Why don't you go back and reread through the posts on the trap.
I think we have pretty much established that all of Guiles arsenal is
rendered useless when the trap is properly executed. To get out, Guile
HAS TO GUESS WHAT RYU WILL DO. I don't know how I can drill this through
your head. Maybe the Ryu's you play don't do it right, but if it IS
done right, YOU HAVE TO GUESS. This is why it is so hard to get out
of. AND YOU HAVE TO GUESS TWICE. Once on fireball speed, and the second
time about what comes after you "escape", or you be right back in it.
>in the corner trap. Its too general. You guys do bye all means have the right
>to say and do wahtever you want, but its better to be thought a fool than
>to open your and prove it to everyone. Think about what you are saying before
>you make sweeping generalizations about the skill and strategies of other
>Sf2 players. It is possible for a given character to defeat the given tactic
>or strategie of any given character. Remembering this will make you a more
>well rounded Sf2 player. Underestimating people could = ( -$0.25)
ONID
Sacrifice!!!!!! You must sacrifice to get out of this trap...
or pull some awesome shit that no one has ever seen before...
--
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Computers are bad for you, they cause brain cavities... Even Crest can't help!
"Shouryuken" - Ryu | The piper has lost his way... the mice have ran away!
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