Swimming after eating
Sula
Everyone +ACo-knew+ACo- that you must not go in the water within, say, half an hour
after a meal. The explanation was always something like +ACI-you could get
cramps and drown+ACI-. Nothing more precise was ever offered.
I recently was at a kids' beach and was surprised this bit of ancient wisdom
seems to have disappeared. Some of the young mothers had never heard of it+ADs-
those that had said it had been dismissed long since.
I'd always regarded it as nonsense (largely because no adult would ever give
me a
reasonable explanation for it). Still, I was surprised in this age where
threats to children are imagined under every rock and pebble to hear that
such a widespread belief could evaporate.
Anyone know where this idea came from? And where it went?
K. D.
Sula wrote in message ...
>When I was a lad, kids were universally enjoined from swimming after
eating.
>Everyone +ACo-knew+ACo- that you must not go in the water within, say, half
an hour
>after a meal. The explanation was always something like +ACI-you could get
>cramps and drown+ACI-.
>Anyone know where this idea came from? And where it went?
The idea came from some sound ideas about human physiology, but which were
applied with too broad a brush.
Yes, ANY heavy exercise within an hour or so after eating is ill-advised.
In short, digestion diverts blood flow away from muscles and to the organs
of digestion. So, if you exercise vigorously (using your large muscle
groups), your large muscles may become strapped for oxygen and energy, and
cramp.
Severe cramping while you are swimming in water above your head can prove to
be dangerous, if not fatal.
There are a lot of variables to this situation, including: amount and type
of food eaten, depth of the water in which you are swimming, strenuousness
of activity while in the water, etc. Rather than try to figure all these
variables out, it is much simpler to say, "Don't swim after you've eaten a
meal."
Where this idea went is a good question. I wasn't aware that it had left.
Here's a thought: When I was very little, the adage about swimming after
eating was well-recited by parents. As was the caveat about peeing in a
pool. Of course, peeing in a pool wasn't dangerous to the person doing the
peeing, since the fear was polio. If you peed in a pool, and you were
carrying the polio virus, presumably *other* people were put at risk, not
the peer (pee-er?). Still, it was (and still is) considered bad form to pee
in the pool.
In short, I think people had a lot of rules about swimming and peeing both.
Maybe those two rules of swimming (not after eating, and don't pee while)
became inseparable.
So, after essentially universal polio immunization, perhaps people forgot
about the warnings against eating and swimming. Uh, is anyone following
this? (If so, please explain to me.)
In re swimming and exercising, tho, there is a rule of thumb which has been
written in stone, at least locally, about swimming and playing baseball. On
the day of a game, and ESPECIALLY before a play-off game, the kids in Little
League are cautioned not to go swimming, the idea being that a lot of energy
spent while swimming will deplete their muscles before the game. I don't
know where the baseball powers-that-be came up with this, or if it has any
real scientific merit, but it is followed very strictly.
Sula
>ANY heavy exercise within an hour or so after eating is ill-advised.
But to my child's mind the puzzling thing was that the injunction applied
only to swimming - no other form of activity right after eating was
prohibited. And no one ever got cramps. So there had to be something
special about swimming that induced cramps, yet no one could tell me what it
was. (Nor did the naughty kids who ignored the rule report any problems.)
>Where this idea went is a good question. I wasn't aware that it had left.
>Here's a thought: When I was very little, the adage about swimming after
>eating was well-recited by parents. As was the caveat about peeing in a
>pool. ... Maybe those two rules of swimming (not after eating, and don't
pee while)
>became inseparable
We never had the second injunction. Peeing in the pool was discouraged, but
no dire consequences were threatened.
>In re swimming and exercising, tho, there is a rule of thumb which has been
>written in stone, at least locally, about swimming and playing baseball.
On
>the day of a game, and ESPECIALLY before a play-off game, the kids in
Little
>League are cautioned not to go swimming, the idea being that a lot of
energy
>spent while swimming will deplete their muscles before the game. I don't
>know where the baseball powers-that-be came up with this, or if it has any
>real scientific merit, but it is followed very strictly.
It's a new one on me - I played Little League for three years and pre-game
swimming was not mentioned as a problem. I wonder how this one got started?
K. D.
>We never had the second injunction. Peeing in the pool was discouraged,
but
>no dire consequences were threatened.
Here is what we were told. OK, being a little kid, I might have gotten this
wrong, but this is the way I remember it. We were told not to pee in the
pool because it caused polio. Yes, that is true -- someone who has the
polio virus can theoretically transmit that virus to another person by
peeing in communal bathing water. However, I interpreted it to mean that if
*I* peed in the pool, *I* would get polio. Heck, I didn't even know what
polio was at the time, but I knew that I didn't want to contract it. But,
even being a dumb kid, I was puzzled at how *I* could contract polio by
peeing INTO the water -- I must have had some rudimentary understanding that
germs had to enter YOUR body to make you sick.
>It's a new one on me - I played Little League for three years and pre-game
>swimming was not mentioned as a problem. I wonder how this one got
started?
Interesting. This is such a hard a fast rule in local Little League that,
when the members of my son's All Stars Team were questioned about what kind
of party they wanted to celebrate the end of the season, swimming was
mentioned -- because ..... given that the All Stars games essentially go
every week day until you're doubly eliminated, and given that you can't swim
on days you have a game, they all wanted to celebrate by finally being able
to go swimming.
Sounds like a local "truism" to me. Take notice -- all of you out there
without this particular Little League Rule of the Road can be the first to
get this belief started in YOUR neighborhood.
I suppose that it IS possible that the local coaches know something special
about this swimming and baseball thing that hasn't been widely broadcast.
One of my son's coaches is/was a physician (not that *that* particularly
means anything) -- gastroenterologist, I believe -- and he apparently
believed in the "don't swim on the day before a game" rule....
Medieval Knievel
K. D. wrote in message
>I suppose that it IS possible that the local coaches know something special
>about this swimming and baseball thing that hasn't been widely broadcast.
>One of my son's coaches is/was a physician (not that *that* particularly
>means anything) -- gastroenterologist, I believe -- and he apparently
>believed in the "don't swim on the day before a game" rule....
I imagine that Little League age kids will swim so hard and so long that
they would be worn out for the game. I remember coming home from the pool
in the summers when I was 7-12 so tired that I couldn't lift my arms.
--
What Would Medieval Knievel Do? (WWMKD?)
remove NOSPAM from my address to reply
ICQ# 26667824 aa# 1552 ULC ordained minister
EAC Coordinator of Youth Corruption Activities
Kurt Foster
. When I was a lad, kids were universally enjoined from swimming after
eating. Everyone *knew* that you must not go in the water within,
. say, half an hour after a meal. The explanation was always something
. like "you could get cramps and drown". Nothing more precise was ever
. offered.
[snip]
. Anyone know where this idea came from? And where it went?
Probably it came from the fact that, the more of your blood supply is
being demanded for digestive functions, the less is available for other
things. Try running a couple of miles right after eating a heavy meal,
and you'll see just what this means ;-)
The "get cramps and drown" story probably went because the notion was
taken to such ridiculous extremes.
The cartoonist Gahan Wilson summarizes a number of childhood beliefs,
including this one, which he states as follows:
"If you eat anything, even half a hot dog, and you go into the water less
than a half hour later, you will get terrible cramps. If you are
swimming, you will sink like a stone."
The accompanying cartoons are hilarious. See Chapter 5 (Kids) in
"GAHAN WILSON'S AMERICA"
(c) 1985 by Gahan Wilson
Fireside Books (Simon & Schuster)
ISBN 0-671-55512-X
JoAnne Schmitz
wrote:
>Here's a thought: When I was very little, the adage about swimming after
>eating was well-recited by parents. As was the caveat about peeing in a
>pool. Of course, peeing in a pool wasn't dangerous to the person doing the
>peeing, since the fear was polio. If you peed in a pool, and you were
>carrying the polio virus, presumably *other* people were put at risk, not
>the peer (pee-er?). Still, it was (and still is) considered bad form to pee
>in the pool.
Funny, I never heard peeing in the pool connected in any way with polio. I
can't even imagine fearing polio from pee, though I guess it could be possible.
I would more easily believe that it was just one of the things that moms told
kids when polio was a serious threat so they wouldn't misbehave or be a
nuisance:
"Don't stay up and read under the covers, you'll go nearsighted."
"Don't walk like that, your legs will become deformed."
"Don't make faces like that or it'll stick someday."
"Don't play with it or you'll go blind."
JoAnne "eat all your liver or you'll get mailbombed" Schmitz
------------------------------------------------------+----------------------------
"an intact pus-filled anything isn't going to survive | http://www.snopes.com
the processing fast food is subjected to." | http://www.urbanlegends.com
Barbara Mikkelson, on alt.folklore.urban | http://www.dejanews.com
visit the afu info page at <http://www.qis.net/~jschmitz/afu>
Larry Palletti
>K. D. wrote:
>>ANY heavy exercise within an hour or so after eating is ill-advised.
[...]
>
>>In re swimming and exercising, tho, there is a rule of thumb which has been
>>written in stone, at least locally, about swimming and playing baseball.
>On
>>the day of a game, and ESPECIALLY before a play-off game, the kids in
>Little
>>League are cautioned not to go swimming, the idea being that a lot of
>energy
>>spent while swimming will deplete their muscles before the game. I don't
>>know where the baseball powers-that-be came up with this, or if it has any
>>real scientific merit, but it is followed very strictly.
>
>
>It's a new one on me - I played Little League for three years and pre-game
>swimming was not mentioned as a problem. I wonder how this one got started?
>
'Way back in the Forties, when my father was teaching me The Sweet
Science, he warned that boxers must *never* swim. Stretches the
muscles, he insisted, muscles that need to be tight and compact to
allow powerful punches (1). As he was a top-flight amateur boxer, I
figured he knew what he was talking about (2).
The no-swimming thing never came up in any other sports I played, not
even the organized sandlot baseball. It would appear that
stretchy-type activities like swimming would be very good for
ballplayers, who during a game do a lot of sitting around and then
must perform in ways that call for explosive muscular effort.
Seems contradictory to ban swimming before a baseball game, then put
the kids through pregame calisthenics and other warmup activities like
wind sprints.
(1) Evidently the proscription didn't work the other way. When I was
on the college swimming team, nobody warned me to avoid boxing.
(2) M*tt*
Larry Palletti
East Point/Atlanta, Georgia
www.palletti.com la...@palletti.com
--
Opinionated, but lovable
Provincial, exclusionary
Sula
>We were told not to pee in the pool because it caused polio.
I'm surprised I missed this. I grew up in the fifties when polio (which I
believe in those days was often called "infantile paralysis") was on
people's minds, and this is just the sort of goofy thing that pool
lifeguards and other authority figures liked to hit you with.
Sula
>the kids in Little
>League are cautioned not to go swimming, the idea being that a lot of
energy
>spent while swimming will deplete their muscles before the game.
This mirrors the (by now very) old-fashioned advice that professional
athletes should avoid sex before the big game. Detailed reasons were seldom
given, though I believe Rocky's coach told him, "Women weaken legs".
But Casey Stengel summed it up neatly: "It isn't sex that wrecks these
guys - it's staying up all night looking for it."
Astrida Dahm
manual that mentioned it. It has appeared in no other manual, and is false,
and the red-cross never mentioned it again. The story is still very
prevailent in NZ, even though it's false.
Mingus
organi...@xtra.co.nz
Sula wrote in message ...
>When I was a lad, kids were universally enjoined from swimming after
eating.
>Everyone +ACo-knew+ACo- that you must not go in the water within, say, half
an hour
>after a meal. The explanation was always something like +ACI-you could get
>cramps and drown+ACI-. Nothing more precise was ever offered.
>and so on...
Nick Spalding
> To the best of my knowledge, this story started in 1953 with a red-cross
> manual that mentioned it. It has appeared in no other manual, and is false,
> and the red-cross never mentioned it again. The story is still very
> prevailent in NZ, even though it's false.
I remember it from no later than 1938.
--
Nick Spalding
Ralph Jones
Gee, I was just told not to pee in the pool because it was like peeing on
other people. But the fear of polio certainly was there, and it may be hard
for folks today to realize how ever-present it was. I was in Miami, where
there was a huge, faux Italianate place called the Venetian Pool -- but
mothers called it the Polio Pit. Many of us weren't allowed in it in July or
August.
rj
edward...@my-deja.com
In "The Nine Days of Dunkirk", David Devine he mentions the difficulty
the allies had in evacuating the French from the beaches. He relates an
anecdote that some French soldiers refused to get into small boats on
the beach, stating that they had just eaten and couldn't go into the
water.
This book could very well have a strong anti-French bias. It strongly
condemns the French command, and relates, with some scorn, the inability
of the French soldiers to get into the small boats with the
appropriate skill and in the correct numbers.
Even if this is just a French-bashing joke, it still indicates a belief
in the folklore.
Edward "how about those Channel swimmers?" Flint
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Margaret Lillard
>Astrida Dahm wrote:
>> To the best of my knowledge, this story started in 1953 with a red-cross
>> manual that mentioned it. It has appeared in no other manual, and is false,
>> and the red-cross never mentioned it again. The story is still very
>> prevailent in NZ, even though it's false.
>I remember it from no later than 1938.
In my copy of _Swimming and Water Safety_, copyright 1968 by the American
Red Cross and given to me when I got my lifeguard and Water Safety
Instructor certification in 1981, the only mention I can find is in the
chapter titled "Safety in Aquatics," where it says (as part of a long list
of do's and don'ts) "Stay out of the water when overheated and immediately
after eating." It repeats the same unadorned admonition in a few safety
checklists before explaining in the section "Helping Yourself in an
Emergency; 1. Cramps", where it says:
"Stomach cramps, which have been attributed to overexertion too soon after
eating, are not common but they may occur. This kind of cramp, which might
more accurately be called an abdominal cramp, need not be fatal or even as
serious as was formerly believed. If the swimmer does not panic and will
relax, stretch and change his body position, he should still be successful
in keeping afloat until the cramp is relieved."
Margaret "Reach, throw, row, go" Lillard
Randy Poe
>
> When I was a lad, kids were universally enjoined from swimming after eating.
> Everyone +ACo-knew+ACo- that you must not go in the water within, say, half an hour
> after a meal.
It was common parent wisdom when I was a kid, and the time
frame was one-hour. As in even if you ate half a hot dog,
my mom would forbid me from swimming. Also, as a biology
major and a worker in the medical industry, she would add
a plausible-sounding explanation like "all the blood will
rush to your stomach because <mumble, digestion, mumble>
and you will get a cramp and drown".
Our part in this: we never passed it on to our kids. I was
a little nervous about it at first, but as they didn't seem
to drown, I never made a big deal about it. I worry more
about currents, as I grew up with lakes and I'm a little
suspicious of this whole idea of water moving.
Randy "OK, kids, now try eating two hot dogs and going in
5 minutes later" Poe
yu...@my-deja.com
"Sula" <su...@shn.org> wrote:
> K. D. wrote:
> >ANY heavy exercise within an hour or so after eating is ill-advised.
>
applied
> only to swimming - no other form of activity right after eating was
> prohibited. And no one ever got cramps. So there had to be something
> special about swimming that induced cramps, yet no one could tell me
what it
> was. (Nor did the naughty kids who ignored the rule report any
problems.)
In my case 50'sL, my parents related it to the temperature of the
water, usualy 60-70F where we swam. The cold water would "congeal the
food" in your stomach and give you cramps.
It took until I swam in the ocean at York Beach, Maine that I
discovered what cramps really were.
Joe "even cramped my toes" Yuska
Michael A. Yetto
>
>'Way back in the Forties, when my father was teaching me The Sweet
>Science, he warned that boxers must *never* swim. Stretches the
>muscles, he insisted, muscles that need to be tight and compact to
>allow powerful punches (1). As he was a top-flight amateur boxer, I
>figured he knew what he was talking about (2).
>
>The no-swimming thing never came up in any other sports I played, not
>even the organized sandlot baseball. It would appear that
>stretchy-type activities like swimming would be very good for
>ballplayers, who during a game do a lot of sitting around and then
>must perform in ways that call for explosive muscular effort.
>
>
This goes along with what my High School track coach told us.
Swimming creates long slender calf muscles and ours were obviously
tightly bunched and very thick. Accepting this as truth was easy
during March in Eastchester, NY when training started.
Mike
--
mye...@nycap.rr.com (Mike Yetto)
"A deranged human being and my personal Internet God" - Dave Barry
For my PGP Public Key send E-Mail with a Subject: of "MAY: PGP Key"
without the quotes.
Maggie Newman
>>
>
>It was common parent wisdom when I was a kid, and the time
>frame was one-hour. As in even if you ate half a hot dog,
>my mom would forbid me from swimming.
If *I* ate half a hot dog, your mother would forbid *you* from swimming?
Wow, your mom was *strict*.
As an adult, I experience discomfort if I work out within a couple of
hours of eating. I don't know if it's what they mean when they say
a "cramp" -- I would be more inclined to call it a "stitch," as in,
what you get in your side.
But the logic alluded to earlier (why swimming and not other sports)
makes sense to me. If you do get a cramp on dry land, you can wince
or roll around in agony, depending on its severity, but if you're out
in the water there is a risk of drowning if you panic. Moms, as moms
are wont to do, erred on the side of literal interpretation.
Maggie "do you think we *liked* having you stand around and whine, 'can
we swim yet'?" Newman
--
"I think it's a fairly global phenomenon, regionally speaking."
Dave Hatunen
K. D.
Randy Poe wrote in message <37C1949C...@dgsys.com>...
>Sula wrote:
>Randy "OK, kids, now try eating two hot dogs and going in
>5 minutes later" Poe
I wish they had warned me, instead, about not eating five hotdogs and
immediately playing on the merry-go-round at the playground. You know, the
old-fashioned kind, which if you got going fast enough, you could hang on to
the bars with your hands and kick your feet out and sail around.
After about a half hour of that, you're green around the gills anyway, and
five hot dogs just makes the whole experience so much more memorable! Add
some chocolate milk and/or ice cream for a real experience you won't forget!
Dan Evans
>When I was a lad, kids were universally enjoined from swimming after eating.
Other medical myths I was puzzled by as a child/teenager:
1. When you are shot, the doctors (or nearby cowboys) must "dig out
the bullet." During one western, while the cowboys are heating up the
knife, my father (an M.D.) asks me why they need to take out the
bullet. I don't know, which causes me great shame and anxiety in
later life.
2. When you have a cold, you can't take a shower or wet your hair.
While watching a commercial for some absurd product, the MAW
(model-actress-whatever) announces that she can't wash her hair
because she has a cold. My father (an M.D.) asks me why she can't
wash her hair, which causes me great shame and contempt for my father
in later life.
*Dan Evans
*The above general information is provided
*"as is" and carries no warranty of fitness
*for any particular factual situation.
Medieval Knievel
Dan Evans wrote in message
(parts snipped)
my father (an M.D.) asks me why they need to take out the
>bullet. I don't know, which causes me great shame and anxiety in
>later life.
. My father (an M.D.) asks me why she can't
>wash her hair, which causes me great shame and contempt for my father
>in later life.
Really, Dan, it's OK. You're among friends. Need a hug?
--
Medieval Knievel--The Other White Meat
Jonathan E. Miller
> In re swimming and exercising, tho, there is a rule of thumb which has been
> written in stone, at least locally, about swimming and playing baseball. On
> the day of a game, and ESPECIALLY before a play-off game, the kids in Little
> League are cautioned not to go swimming, the idea being that a lot of energy
> spent while swimming will deplete their muscles before the game. I don't
> know where the baseball powers-that-be came up with this, or if it has any
> real scientific merit, but it is followed very strictly.
My high school discontinued its swimming program in the '50s when some research
indicated that swimming breaks down some muscles necessary for football (or so I
heard, it might be a legend).
Jon
Jeremy W. Burgeson
> This goes along with what my High School track coach told us.
>Swimming creates long slender calf muscles and ours were obviously
>tightly bunched and very thick. Accepting this as truth was easy
>during March in Eastchester, NY when training started.
I have been told (recently) that my swimming at the club in the
winter may be good for my heart/lungs/general health, but it is
directly detrimental to my biking ability (the winter part isn't
a big deal, it just happens to be when I don't bike because it
would be seriously unpleasant). Since I don't make money when
I do either one my reaction was, "Fine. Whatever." No swimmers
I've met think riding a bike is bad for swimming, unless you
decide to do both at the same time.
Oh, not only do I swim after eating, the tornado siren is
like a call to go outside (good god, why do they have *sirens*
for dangerous weather? That's asking for trouble) and for some
reason or another Dangerous Surf Advisories mean get in the water
right now! You won't get a better workout anywhere.
If I'm going to be a rebel somebody needs to find me a better
cause. Mine seem kind of lame. Hi Mom. Hope you didn't read
this.
Jeremy
Simon Slavin
> K. D. wrote:
> >ANY heavy exercise within an hour or so after eating is ill-advised.
>
> But to my child's mind the puzzling thing was that the injunction applied
> only to swimming - no other form of activity right after eating was
> prohibited.
I may be the world's worst swimmer so swimming ULs attract my attention.
The problem with swimming is that if you get cramp you can't just stop.
I think that the UL reflects a parent's fear that a child will become
helpless in the water. Does anyone have any idea if the proportion of
people who can swim has increased or decreased over the last couple of
centuries ?
A lot of pieces of advice to children reflect a time when children
were far more rare and precious than they are today. Infant mortality
is so low nowdays that, although kids are still loved by their parents,
they're not considered the vital, irreplacable, community resource they
were when two out of three died from disease. A dying child will be
morned-over by friends and family but is not going to hamper the
community as a whole. I've read stories based in frontier-America and
in the wilds of USSR where a community's production and the variety of
their gene-pool is directly proportional to the population. Each
death increases the chance that the hamlet as a whole will have to
pack up and move a larger community, destroying its spirit.
I suspect that a lot of advice to children which has been passed-down
through he generations was hyped-up 'for their own good' -- to make
kids not only avoid the dangerous things but avoid even getting close
to something that's dangerous.
Simon.
--
<http://www.hearsay.demon.co.uk> | ... you start off with a typical message,
No junk email please. | let's say a 2.5MB Word document containing
ET may've phoned /us/. | three lines of text and a macro virus ...
Help play the tape: SETI@home. | -- Peter Gutmann
K. D.
Simon Slavin wrote in message ...
>A lot of pieces of advice to children reflect a time when children
>were far more rare and precious than they are today. Infant mortality
>is so low nowdays that, although kids are still loved by their parents,
>they're not considered the vital, irreplacable, community resource they
>were when two out of three died from disease. A dying child will be
>morned-over by friends and family but is not going to hamper the
>community as a whole.
I recall reading a biography about Peter the Great -- if memory serves me,
something like 10 of his 12 children, or 12 of 14 (thereabouts) didn't
survive early childhood. (Does someone know the details -- it was about 20
years ago that I read that book.)
So, not only a community can be in jeopardy from high infant mortality, but
a dynasty and/or the political stability of a whole country / empire.
Another thought: all these pregnancies born by the females, trying to end
up with kids who make it. Well, it wears the women-folk out, not to mention
threatens their own lives. And you know what happens then, right? Too many
men relative to women? I'm guessing warfare.
Lisa Keipp
It used to be believed that you should not was while you were ill,
because the"chill' your skin got would cause you to get sicker. Of
course, this comes from people who believed that bathing of any kind was
a neccessity only once a year, which moved on to once a season, until
some medical types found that "cleanliness" was not next to "godliness"
(implying to be clean would make you sickly and therefore closer to God)
but indeed was next to cleavage (check your dictionary) and that their
patients recovered much better if the patients were clean, the doctors
were clean and their instruments of torture... I mean, surgery... were
also clean.
Being clean does not make you any iller, nor more susseptible to
illness, just as going outside with wet hair during the winter does not
cause Pnuemonia, although it does cause brain freeze.
Bullets need to come out so they don't shift in the body and do more
damage, and also to prevent infection.
And as I am not yet blind, haven't poked my eye out with that thing, nor
has my face "frozen that way", you can take my word for it.
Lisa "still running with scissors" Keipp
Mike Sphar
once write the following? Read the book:
>Moms, as moms
>are wont to do, erred on the side of literal interpretation.
>
>Maggie "do you think we *liked* having you stand around and whine, 'can
>we swim yet'?" Newman
That was always my suspicion, yes.
--
Mike Sphar http://mikey.sanjoseweb.com mi...@matches.com
Never trust any complicated cocktail that remainds perfectly clear until
the last ingredient goes in, and then immediately clouds.
-- Terry Pratchett
Charles A. Lieberman
> >the day of a game, and ESPECIALLY before a play-off game, the kids in
> Little
> >League are cautioned not to go swimming, the idea being that a lot of
> energy
> >spent while swimming will deplete their muscles before the game. I don't
> >know where the baseball powers-that-be came up with this, or if it has any
> >real scientific merit, but it is followed very strictly.
>
>
> swimming was not mentioned as a problem. I wonder how this one got started?
Because little leaguers are unlikely to have sex.
Charles "Surprised, etc." Lieberman
--
Charles A. Lieberman | "I do find remotely unlikely things hard to
Brooklyn, NY, USA | believe."
| --JoAnne Schmitz
K. D.
Charles A. Lieberman wrote in message ...
>Sun, 22 Aug 1999 22:00:55 -0400
>Sula
>> >the day of a game, and ESPECIALLY before a play-off game, the kids in
>> Little
>> >League are cautioned not to go swimming, the idea being that a lot of
>> energy
>> >spent while swimming will deplete their muscles before the game. I
don't
>> >know where the baseball powers-that-be came up with this, or if it has
any
>> >real scientific merit, but it is followed very strictly.
>>
>> It's a new one on me - I played Little League for three years and
pre-game
>> swimming was not mentioned as a problem. I wonder how this one got
started?
>
>Because little leaguers are unlikely to have sex.
I LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now, why didn't *I* think of that!
If we put our minds to it, I suspect we can come up with other warnings
which have been issued to children about not doing certain activities, but
which have counterparts of a sexual nature for adults.
In re the "M" word, does it only cause hairy palms, insanity, and blindness
in minors, or are adults susceptible, too? Does it only work if you're
Catholic? I wonder if you can engage in same while swimming, or before ball
games, or after eating a heavy meal.
msk...@valdes.uvic.ca
Lisa Keipp <lke...@netexpress.net> wrote:
> Being clean does not make you any iller, nor more susseptible to
>illness, just as going outside with wet hair during the winter does not
>cause Pnuemonia, although it does cause brain freeze.
Actually, the cover story of the latest _Science News_ suggests that
insufficient exposure as a child to certain bacteria found in soil may
cause immune problems later in life.
And that inflammatory bowel disease may be caused by lack of intestinal worms.
I wish I had the magazine here to be more specific with (left it at home, and
am now at work), but it shouldn't be too hard to find in a reasonably-sized
library.
--
Matthew Skala Ansuz BBS (250) 472-3169 http://www.islandnet.com/~mskala/
GOD HATES SPAM
Scarecrow
>1. When you are shot, the doctors (or nearby cowboys) must "dig out
>the bullet." During one western, while the cowboys are heating up the
>knife, my father (an M.D.) asks me why they need to take out the
>bullet. I don't know, which causes me great shame and anxiety in
>later life.
Well, during the time of the Wild West, which was concurrent with and followed
the Civil War, bullets were made out of lead. We know how bad it is to suffer
from lead poisoning (I'm thinking here of lead paint not "lead" pencils) so
"getting the lead out" was a good idea.
Now-a-days bullets arn't made of lead. So, if they are unlikely to migrate in
the body and effect major organs they are left right where they are. Invasive
surgery may be more dammaging that the bullet. (rubing the .22 calibre bullet
imbedded in my left bicept in rememberance of pain and fear)
_
_/_\_
__\"/__
"--\_/--" Not the first time. Hopefully not the last.
/_\ Scarecrow
//|\\
"` | `" please note, my e-mail address is not real
__|__ jgs all responses should be posted.
Sula
Scarecrow wrote:
>Now-a-days bullets arn't made of lead.
Of what are they now made? Depleted uranium?
Ilmari Karonen
: In re the "M" word, does it only cause hairy palms, insanity, and blindness
: in minors, or are adults susceptible, too? Does it only work if you're
: Catholic? I wonder if you can engage in same while swimming,
Probably yes, though I have yet to try it myself. But unless you swim on
your back, you're unlikely to make much progress.
It can also be hard to maintain balance and keep your face above water
while swimming face downward with only one free hand. Presumably a cramp
would cause similar problems, and children wouldn't be expected to know
the proper technique for handling it.
(Course correction succesful, captain. We're back on the thread.)
--
Ilmari Karonen (il...@sci.fi)
http://www.sci.fi/~iltzu/
K. D.
more of your type around here.........
Ilmari Karonen wrote in message <7q95fr$7ie$1...@tron.sci.fi>...
Andrea Jones
Sula wrote in message ...
>
>>Now-a-days bullets arn't made of lead.
>
>Of what are they now made? Depleted uranium?
many ships in the world are indeed commonly made of depleted uranium. This
is, however, being changed. The reason I heard was to reduce the risk of
heavy metal poisoning for the sailors loading the weapon or otherwise
handling the rounds. In Fire Controlman "A" school (US Navy) we were warned
to be extremely cautious handling depleted uranium rounds with bare hands if
we had nicks or cuts on said hands. If the information put out in my
classes was correct, I can hardly imagine that a depleted uranium bullet
would be left in a victim, due to the "heavy metal poisoning."
Andrea "Probably more than anyone wanted to know" Jones
Sula
>The 20mm rounds for the Phalanx Close-In Weapons System present on a great
>many ships in the world are indeed commonly made of depleted uranium. This
>is, however, being changed. The reason I heard was to reduce the risk of
>heavy metal poisoning for the sailors loading the weapon or otherwise
>handling the rounds.
It seems as if this could easily be dealt with by putting a thin metal
jacket on the bullets.
Uranium is used by the military because it's more dense than lead. I'm
still wondering what Scarecrow thinks "civilian" bullets are made of.
Brian Yeoh
> Sula wrote in message ...
> >Scarecrow wrote:
> >>Now-a-days bullets arn't made of lead.
> >Of what are they now made? Depleted uranium?
<snip description of Phalanx rounds and handling of same>
> classes was correct, I can hardly imagine that a depleted uranium bullet
> would be left in a victim, due to the "heavy metal poisoning."
Given that the typical size of depleted uranium rounds (bullets? _bullets_?
They must teach things differently on the water) is larger than 20mm, any
typical depleted uranium round would not leave behind a victim after
impact.
Brian "Ever seen _Saving Private Ryan_?" Yeoh
Clear, unscaleable, ahead |
Rise the Mountains of Instead | -- WH Auden, "Autumn Song"
From whose cold cascading streams |
None may drink except in dreams. |
Astrida Dahm
>They must teach things differently on the water) is larger than 20mm, any
>typical depleted uranium round would not leave behind a victim after
>impact.
>
>Brian "Ever seen _Saving Private Ryan_?" Yeoh
OK, the man is right - they are around that size, and are used mainly by
A-10 Attack Aircraft. They used them quite abit in the Gulf-War - and since
then, the rate of leukemia in Iraq in children has gone up alot.
The reason they use them, is since they are heavier they pack more punch,
and are morelikely to pop a tanks armor than a lead bullet.
I'm not sure what normal bullets are made of, but I'm aware that they have
copper cases.
Cya
Mingus
organi...@xtra.co.nz
TMOliver
>
>
> OK, the man is right - they are around that size, and are > used mainly by
> A-10 Attack Aircraft. They used them quite abit in the > Gulf-War - and since
> then, the rate of leukemia in Iraq in children has gone up > alot.
Absolutely unsupportable UL falling into emotional hogwash category!
(Both as to leukemia rate or the establishment of any relationship
between depleted uranium rounds and the rate of leukemia)
> The reason they use them, is since they are heavier they > pack more punch,
> and are morelikely to pop a tanks armor than a lead bullet.
A pearl of wisdom amongst a page of swine-effluent
> I'm not sure what normal bullets are made of, but I'm aware > that they have
> copper cases.
>
Varying percentages of lead mixed with other easy to melt metals,
sometimes with cores of metals of different expansion characteristics,
and the term is "jackets", usually of copper mixtures long on copper,
soft enough not to abrade barrel rifling.
"Cases" refers to the brass or other metal containers for propellant and
projectiles.
> Cya
>
Apparently, Cya, you know as little about the causes/incidence of
leukemia as you know about bullets, projectiles, depleted uranium and
jackets. Try another trip to the library, and broaden the objectivity
content of your selections.
Were easily shattered human ova a problem in Western Europe among
females heavily dusted with DDT after WWII (a very common if not general
practice)? Was any research done on the effect of DDT on human
birthrate, etc.?
--
TMOliver, el pelon sinverguenza
From a small observatory overlooking the confluence of the Three
Bosques...
"Ask not what your government can do for you,
but how to get out of the way when it does!"
Simon Slavin
"Astrida Dahm" <organi...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
> [depleted uranium round]
>
> OK, the man is right - they are around that size, and are used mainly by
> A-10 Attack Aircraft. They used them quite abit in the Gulf-War - and since
> then, the rate of leukemia in Iraq in children has gone up alot.
I'm going to ask for a cite here. I'll take a look at MedLine
tomorrow but the idea that there's an increase in leukemia in
Iraqi children hasn't reached any news source I've seen.
And BTW, why would the rate in children increase but not the
rate in adults ?
Crash Johnson
<>
>OK, the man is right - they are around that size, and are used mainly by
>A-10 Attack Aircraft. They used them quite abit in the Gulf-War - and since
>then, the rate of leukemia in Iraq in children has gone up alot.
Oh, yeah, like the doctors in Iraq have this terrific ability to diagnose
ANYTHING!
Oh, yeah, like the Iraqi use of chemical and biological weapons would not
have an overriding influence.
Crashj 'bang boom pop splat' Johnson
Brian Yeoh
> In article <7qdfgo$751kg$1...@titan.xtra.co.nz>,
> "Astrida Dahm" <organi...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
> > [depleted uranium round]
<DU leukemia scare>
> And BTW, why would the rate in children increase but not the
> rate in adults ?
Because it tugs at the heartstrings a little better?
One day, we should devise a quotient for meme infectibility. Children
automatically bump up scores by two H*bbards.
Brian "would be interesting charts" Yeoh
Astrida Dahm
by
>> A-10 Attack Aircraft. They used them quite abit in the > Gulf-War - and
since
>> then, the rate of leukemia in Iraq in children has gone up > alot.
>Absolutely unsupportable UL falling into emotional hogwash category!
Oh yeah?
http://www.iacenter.org/depleted/gunther.htm - evidence at this site,
however this is ran by anti-war protestors.
More evidence here:
Direct quote follows, taken from:
http://www.oneworld.org/news/reports98/nuclear.html
There is a tradition of covering up the use of radioactive weapons. The
public did not find out about the use of U-238 'depleted uranium' weapons
until after the Gulf War. Their use was discovered because of 'friendly
fire' incidents, when allied tanks mistakenly fired U-238 projectiles at
other allied tanks. Presently, the US military is monitoring the radioactive
breakdown of depleted uranium shrapnel lodged inside the bodies of US
troops. Depleted uranium has a half-life of 4.5 billion years. There is now
a fivefold increase of cancers in Iraq. Depleted uranium weaponry have been
condemned as weapons of mass destruction by the United Nations
Sub-Commission for the Prevention of Discrimination and Protection of
Minorities. (SC 1997-36).
More evidence, taken from: http://www.junkscience.com/news2/iraqcan.htm
But he said there has been a marked increase in leukemia and lymphatic
cancer, which he says are often related to radiation.
>
>(Both as to leukemia rate or the establishment of any relationship
>between depleted uranium rounds and the rate of leukemia)
>
>> The reason they use them, is since they are heavier they > pack more
punch,
>> and are morelikely to pop a tanks armor than a lead bullet.
>
>A pearl of wisdom amongst a page of swine-effluent
>> I'm not sure what normal bullets are made of, but I'm aware > that they
have
>> copper cases.
>>
>Varying percentages of lead mixed with other easy to melt metals,
>sometimes with cores of metals of different expansion characteristics,
>and the term is "jackets", usually of copper mixtures long on copper,
>soft enough not to abrade barrel rifling.
>
>"Cases" refers to the brass or other metal containers for propellant and
>projectiles.
Yeah, your probably right on that one, and I meant "jacket's", sorry about
the mistake.
>
>Apparently, Cya, you know as little about the causes/incidence of
>leukemia as you know about bullets, projectiles, depleted uranium and
>jackets. Try another trip to the library, and broaden the objectivity
>content of your selections.
OK, I am aware that
>Were easily shattered human ova a problem in Western Europe among
>females heavily dusted with DDT after WWII (a very common if not general
>practice)? Was any research done on the effect of DDT on human
>birthrate, etc.?
Source: http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/ToxProfiles/phs8908.html
However, tests in animals suggest that exposure to DDT may have a harmful
effect on reproduction
Scarecrow
>
>Scarecrow wrote:
>>Now-a-days bullets arn't made of lead.
>
>Of what are they now made? Depleted uranium?
>
>
You know, even though I still have a lump of a bullet in my arm, I never thought
to ask what it was made of. I feel really stupid, now. Thanks a lot. I'm
thinking that it must be a harmless material or the docs wouldn't have left it
there. Maybe I'm a test case to see how long I live.
Melissa7m
>ANYTHING!
>Oh, yeah, like the Iraqi use of chemical and biological weapons would not
>have an overriding influence.
>
>Crashj 'bang boom pop splat' Johnson
Oh, yeah, like nationalism is a relevant argument to bring to a newsgroup.
FYI, Iraq actually had/has a very advanced civilization, where they have
(gasp!) college, doctors, professionals, computers, etc. Just like (gasp!) the
United States. Unlike the United States, though, Iraq is very old and the
cradle of civilization. All of which we had to ignore in order to feel okay
with bombing them back to the Stone Age. I swear, from watching the news you
would think that the only people out there with learning at all were the
Isrealis.
-Amanda "ha! Muslims had algebra while we were still living with thatch roofs"
Marcotte
yu...@my-deja.com
slavins.at.hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost (Simon Slavin) wrote:
> In article <7qdfgo$751kg$1...@titan.xtra.co.nz>,
> "Astrida Dahm" <organi...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>
> > [depleted uranium round]
> >
mainly by
> > A-10 Attack Aircraft. They used them quite abit in the Gulf-War -
and since
> > then, the rate of leukemia in Iraq in children has gone up alot.
>
> tomorrow but the idea that there's an increase in leukemia in
> Iraqi children hasn't reached any news source I've seen.
>
> rate in adults ?
There is a relatively heated controversy over the side effects of DU
ammunition. Much smoke being blown on both sides. People have
claimed that DU is being made into consumer products, others that all
"armor-piercing" ammunition is DU and should be banned. Lots o'
duelling databases.
An altavista search on "depleted uranium" yielded 5500+ web sites.
among those are some that deal with cancer rates in Iraq. No direct
link that I can see has been proven. There are many toxic substances
released during wartime, including by-products from hundreds of burning
oil wells.
DU is used in the A-10 cannon ammunition, M1A1 tank ammunition as well
as armor, and in some cases radiation shielding.
DU radiates mainly alpha particles, with very little range and
penetrating power. Painted with a coating to absorb alphas, it makes a
very effective radiation shielding.
The one mechanism of radiation poisoning that I've seen that has any
credibility is as follows:
DU projectile hits armor, or projectile hits DU armor.
DU oxidizes from heat, forming uranium oxide aerosol.
Uranium oxide is inhaled and comes to rest within the lung where alpha
radiation can do some harm.
Any comments from the medically inclined?
Further information can be gleaned from the 5500 pages mentioned above.
if one is so inclined. I did it about a month ago, and have no
inclination to do so again.
Joe "settled nothing, too." Yuska
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
TMOliver
with one of the most advances maedical care delivery systems in the
world, it's very intersting that no similar increase in
leukemia/radiation related malignancies have been recorded are
publicized there.
The bottom line....
Folks with DU "shrapnel" wounds are few and far between, since the
results on those riding within vehicles struck by DU rounds include a
very low survival rate.
Standard military medical practice calls for the removal (low radiation,
not harmful to med personnel, easy to find because of their
radioactivity) of fragments from wounded personnel.
All things considered, exposure to and handling DU is not much more
dangerous nor causes any more radiation exposure than many medical Xray
procedures (and not near so much as the old shoe store machines).
Breathing DU dust represents the maxiumum exposure hazard, and folks
exposed to "dry" handling of damged/fragmented rounds should wear
masks/etc.
Consumption by mouth in a quanity likely to be harmful is unlikely (even
from children who have handled fragmented rounds and lick their
fingers). Ingestion tends to be followed by ejection in the short term
course of events.
Of all the material hazards of the Gulf War, DU rounds rank far, far
below a laundry list of much more dangerous substances, not the least of
which is particulate from burning oil wells or even the most likely of
ingestions, fiberglass, asbestos and other fibers liberated by
detonations in common building structures and vehicles.
Common sense is a far better source of knowledge than cites from sites
long on agenda and short on facts.
Citing "half life' is particularly egregious tactic of the anti-nuke
crowd. Half of what? It's amount, not half life which controls the
danger of exposure.
Fortunately for the tender sensibilities of New Zealanders, oil prices
continue to remain low. The working number for the emergence of nuclear
powered merchant shipping requires oil to rise to a price range of
$50-60 a barrel, about 2.5 times the current price, but well within
reasonalbe possibility. Barring merchant shipping (and all those
convenient imports not produced there in the land of purist isolation)
would then be the only way to keep nuclear powered vessels out of NZ
ports.
Sadly, a world unwilling to come to grips with the simple equation that
the discharge from a single fossil fuel plant likely harms more folks
than the total damaged (or potentially damaged) by all of the nuclear
power plants in the US, ain't gonna be sensible about DU rounds.
By the way, did you know that many of the jumbo jets which come calling
at NZ airports have mass balances/weights made from DU (just ready to
fall on the heads of little mutton chomper chirrens) in their horizontal
stabilizers?
Russell W. Schmidt
>Direct quote follows, taken from:
>http://www.oneworld.org/news/reports98/nuclear.html
>There is a tradition of covering up the use of radioactive weapons. The
>public did not find out about the use of U-238 'depleted uranium' weapons
>until after the Gulf War.
This is nonsense - while the government did not formally announce the use of
depleted uranium (DU) projectiles (just as they did not formally announce the
use of lead bullets), the use of A-10's was public knowledge, and the A-10 was
and is well known for its pimary weapon, the high-speed cannon firing depleted
uranium bullets.
>Their use was discovered because of 'friendly
>fire' incidents, when allied tanks mistakenly fired U-238 projectiles at
>other allied tanks. Presently, the US military is monitoring the radioactive
>breakdown of depleted uranium shrapnel lodged inside the bodies of US
>troops.
This is utter nonsense. Uranium does not lend itself to shrapnel, nor would
DU be left in a survivor (more because of concerns about heavy metal poisoning
than due to radioactivity). One of the advantages of DU over lead for use in
weaponry is that uranium metal is pyrophoric. Specifically, small pieces of
uranium (such as shavings or shrapnel) will spontaneously burn in air.
If I correctly recall the programs I have seen on the subject, when an
anti-tank round hits the tank the energy of the impact liquifies the metal.
When a DU round successfully penetrates a tank's armor the result is very hot
liquid DU sprayed into the tank. Being pyrophoric the DU immediately burns,
incinerating everything inside.
>Depleted uranium has a half-life of 4.5 billion years.
More specifically, the U-238 which makes up about 99.793% of DU has a half
life of 4.46 billion years. Almost as long as the half life of dirt. Quoting
long half-lives as measure of how dangerous some radionuclide is serves only
to demonstrate an individual or group's complete ignorance of the subject. The
half-life of a radionuclide (such as U-238) is inversely proportional to its
radioactivity. That is, radionuclides with longer half-lives are less
radioactive. Stable (non-radioactive) nuclides have an infinite half life. The
4.46 billion year half life of U-238 translates into a radioactivity of 0.34
_micro_ curies per gram - not very much.
--
Russ Schmidt (i...@ornl.gov)
Lockheed Martin Energy Systems, Inc.
Oak Ridge, Tennessee 37831-2009
ekaulaki
>
> One day, we should devise a quotient for meme infectibility. Children
> automatically bump up scores by two H*bbards.
>
That would be "infectivity"[1]. If you are referring to a property of
the meme.
[1] Many years ago^W^W^WIn grad school I worked with some nonlinear
differential equations that rather beautifully reproduced the spiky
rhythms of measles epidemics. Infectivity was a feature of the agent;
susceptibility/immunity of the host.
Ed "*love* your unit" Kaulakis
Simon Slavin
TMOliver <swr...@iamerica.net> wrote:
> Astrida Dahm wrote:
>
> > OK, the man is right - they are around that size, and are
> > used mainly by
> > A-10 Attack Aircraft. They used them quite abit in the
> > Gulf-War - and since
> > then, the rate of leukemia in Iraq in children has gone up
> > alot.
>
> Absolutely unsupportable UL falling into emotional hogwash category!
Astrida is probably writing with reference to Bill Griffin's
review of relevent literature presented to the office of the
United Nations Commissioner for Human Rights sometime around
January 1998.
The report stated that the incidence of lymphoblastic
leukemia cases in children of the area had more than
quadrupled from 1989 to 1993. While no specific link was
made to a particular source of depleted uranium, abandoned
weaponry and spent ammunition is the only obvious source of
increased radiation.
ObCite: Karen Birchard: Lancet 1998 Feb 28; 351 (9103) p657.
Brian Yeoh
> Brian Yeoh wrote:
> > One day, we should devise a quotient for meme infectibility. Children
> > automatically bump up scores by two H*bbards.
> That would be "infectivity"[1]. If you are referring to a property of
> the meme.
Ah yes. Neologisms r we. Memes are, after all, nasty little viruses.
> Ed "*love* your unit" Kaulakis
I couldn't think of a more apt one.
Brian "that I could post, that is" Yeoh
Dale Sharp
yu...@my-deja.com wrote in message <7qh5ce$8m$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...>> In article <7qdfgo$751kg$1...@titan.xtra.co.nz>,
>> "Astrida Dahm" <organi...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>>
>> > [depleted uranium round]
>> >
>> > OK, the man is right - they are around that size, and are used
>mainly by
>> > A-10 Attack Aircraft. They used them quite abit in the Gulf-War -
>and since
>> > then, the rate of leukemia in Iraq in children has gone up alot.
>>
I am high skeptical about an increase in leukemia due to depleted uranium.
Uranium miners in the bad old days had elevated increases of lung cancer,
but I don't remember a big excess of leukemia, and they breathed a lot more
dust. Further, what the miners were exposed to was a lot more radioactive
as it was normal isotopic enrichment uranium in secular equilibrium with its
progeny, which are much more radioactive than depleted U-238. Also the
mechanism of lung cancer was not inhalation of the dust, but rather
inhalation of radon, which then decayed in the lungs to solids which stayed
there and irradiated the lungs. This is all off the top of my head so if
someone actually looks it up, I might be corrected. Any incidence of lung
cancer in these kids? The classic leukemogen is benzene, a petroleum
product, (hint). Exposure to large amounts of uranium in animals results
in kidney damage, but I don't know if this has ever been observed in
animals. I'm going to skeptical of that there is an increase in leukemia in
Iraq until a sound epidemiological study is done.
Dale
Rick Tyler
>-Amanda "ha! Muslims had algebra while we were still living with thatch roofs"
>Marcotte
Hmmmmm... I believe that Muslims lifted the concept of zero from the
Hindus and went on to play with higher levels of mathematics than were
possible without it. The Greek, Roman, and other Western numbering
systems did not lend themselves well to playing with numbers until the
Hindus to Muslims to Crusaders double play passed along the zero to
Europe.
The real point is that algebra has nothing to do with thatched roofs.
Thatched roofs last a long time, up to 50 years, make use of natural
materials that are cheap and renewable, and provide good insulation.
For a cold rainly climate they are vastly preferable to North African
and Arab construction. What exactly is your beef with thatch?
-- Rick "Nowadays, of course, they cost more than slate" Tyler
-------------------------------------------------------
"Ignorant voracity -- a wingless vulture -- can soar
only into the depths of ignominy." Patrick O'Brian
+ FAQ and lore at www.urbanlegends.com +
TMOliver
>
> In article <37CAA24D...@iamerica.net>,
> TMOliver <swr...@iamerica.net> wrote:
>
> > Astrida Dahm wrote:
> >
> > > used mainly by
> > > A-10 Attack Aircraft. They used them quite abit in the
> > > Gulf-War - and since
> > > then, the rate of leukemia in Iraq in children has gone up
> > > alot.
> >
>
> Astrida is probably writing with reference to Bill Griffin's
> review of relevent literature presented to the office of the
> United Nations Commissioner for Human Rights sometime around
> January 1998.
No similar level of increase was reported in Kuwait, where more/most of
the spent rounds would have been located.
>
> The report stated that the incidence of lymphoblastic
> leukemia cases in children of the area had more than
> quadrupled from 1989 to 1993. While no specific link was
> made to a particular source of depleted uranium, abandoned
> weaponry and spent ammunition is the only obvious source of
> increased radiation.
Well, there's the bugaboo, unevaluated, of the Iraqi nuclear weapons
/uranium enrichment programs, far more likely a source for 'fallout"
than the modest number of DU rounds fire in Iraq.
Thomas Prufer
>Thatched roofs last a long time, up to 50 years, make use of natural
>materials that are cheap and renewable, and provide good insulation.
>For a cold rainly climate they are vastly preferable to North African
>and Arab construction. What exactly is your beef with thatch?
>
>-- Rick "Nowadays, of course, they cost more than slate" Tyler
>
And are rather more flammamble than slate, which supposedly (UL here?)
makes fire insurance fiendishly expensive.
"Modern" straw is not suited for thatch, as it will not last 50 years.
This is supposedly due to the increased level of nutrients due to
fertilizer use. Though this sounds a little ULish, the person telling
me this was a guide at the "American Museum of Frontier Culture",
where they have several transplanted farmhouses[1], among them a
thatched Irish one. The museum had had a thatcher in from UKoGBaNI,
provided him with hand-reaped straw (to ensure sufficient length), and
were disappointed with the durability two years later. They were doing
the next roof in organically grown straw, as they assumed the rapid
deterioration was the result of fertilzer.
Thomas "and mice live in thatch" Prufer
[1] showing the Irish, English and German influences in Appalachian
farmhouse architecture, if there is such a thing.
Songbyrd11
>When I was a lad, kids were universally enjoined from swimming after eating.
When I was young, the rule was an hour after eating. A real pain at the
country club pool if you wanted a snack. Later it was, according to my mother
reduced to 30 minutes.
In the 60's I have a memory of a report saying there was little danger in not
waiting. It all had to do with cramps.
The cramping idea was presented in a Disney cartoon, in one of the "I'm no
fool" series. The cricket would talk about various dangers and the desire to
live to 93. Goofy always was the victim. I still remember his legs and arms
in knots, showing the cramps he had.
Song
Lee Rudolph
>Hmmmmm... I believe that Muslims lifted the concept of zero from the
>Hindus and went on to play with higher levels of mathematics than were
>possible without it. The Greek, Roman, and other Western numbering
>systems did not lend themselves well to playing with numbers until the
>Hindus to Muslims to Crusaders double play passed along the zero to
>Europe.
But accounting is not algebra. The introduction of "zero" was
a key conceptual advance in arithmetic, and applied arithmetic
(the aforementioned "accounting") did indeed zoom forward on
the Italian peninusula and elsewhere after the cultural transfer
you mention. The distinguishing feature of *algebra* is the
use of variables, and variables had indeed been used periphrastically
by the Greeks long before (the year) 0. But for algebra to zoom
forward, humankind had to wait an amazingly long time for someone
to notice that a variable could be notated with a single glyph.
Lee "no accounting for taste" Rudolph
K. D.
Lee Rudolph wrote in message <7qivbr$k5k$1...@panix3.panix.com>...
>rty...@concentric.net (Rick Tyler) writes:
>
>>Hmmmmm... I believe that Muslims lifted the concept of zero from the
>>Hindus and went on to play with higher levels of mathematics than were
>>possible without it. The Greek, Roman, and other Western numbering
>>systems did not lend themselves well to playing with numbers until the
>>Hindus to Muslims to Crusaders double play passed along the zero to
>>Europe.
Leonardo of Pisa, aka FIBONACCI (b. ca. 1175), is credited with introducing
the Hindu-Arabic system of numbering to Europe.
The list of mathematical discoveries of this man is astounding. Here is a
web site with a brief biography of this incredible man:
http://www.mcs.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/R.Knott/Fibonacci/fibBio.html#who
Mark W. Schumann
Simon Slavin <slavins.at.hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost> wrote:
>I'm going to ask for a cite here. I'll take a look at MedLine
>tomorrow but the idea that there's an increase in leukemia in
>Iraqi children hasn't reached any news source I've seen.
>
>And BTW, why would the rate in children increase but not the
>rate in adults ?
I'm going to go waaaay out on a limb and guess that it's possible
that there's some chance of children being more susceptible to
uranium effects because of having more cells that are dividing
more rapidly than in adults... yadda yadda... hand waving...
ISTR that researchers tend to look at child vs. adult leukemia as
having separate causes even though the diseases are rather similar.
Obviously "lifestyle" factors such as poor diet and firsthand smoking
have had less time to build up and affect children.
No, I don't have a good cite on any of this stuff but can go looking
if there is much interest.
--
Mark W. "should probably know more about this than I do" Schumann
Astrida Dahm
Russell W. Schmidt wrote in message <7qh53q$40b$1...@sws1.ctd.ornl.gov>...
>In article <7qfm8q$75tkt$1...@titan.xtra.co.nz>, "Astrida Dahm"
OK, looks like I was totally wrong about it all - just had another thought
about Iraq cancer rate - what if it was from blowing up of iraq nuclear
facility's? Is this possible? Or is it all just Iraqi propaganda?
Ahwell,
Cya
Mingus
organi...@xtra.co.nz
http://warpig.homepage.com
Astrida Dahm
yu...@my-deja.com wrote in message <7qh5ce$8m$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <B3F0C73C9...@0.0.0.0>,
> slavins.at.hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost (Simon Slavin) wrote:
>> "Astrida Dahm" <organi...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>>
>> > [depleted uranium round]
>> >
>> > OK, the man is right - they are around that size, and are used
>mainly by
>> > A-10 Attack Aircraft. They used them quite abit in the Gulf-War -
>and since
>> > then, the rate of leukemia in Iraq in children has gone up alot.
>>
>> tomorrow but the idea that there's an increase in leukemia in
>> Iraqi children hasn't reached any news source I've seen.
>>
>> And BTW, why would the rate in children increase but not the
>> rate in adults ?
>
>
OK, I don't have a cite for that, but I'm absolutely sure I heard it
somewhere - I was probably mistaken about it, looking at what TMOliver has
said in RE:Depleted Uranium
Anyway, thanks for clearing that up, guys
I did post some sites up on a previous post, and one of them had an *Iraqi*
doctor talk about how DU bullets caused leukemia - however, could be
propaganda
Paul Tomblin
>This is nonsense - while the government did not formally announce the use of
>depleted uranium (DU) projectiles (just as they did not formally announce the
>use of lead bullets), the use of A-10's was public knowledge, and the A-10 was
>and is well known for its pimary weapon, the high-speed cannon firing depleted
>uranium bullets.
Not to mention the primary weapon fired by the M-1 Abrams tank is the
APFSDS-DU (Armour Piercing, Fin Stabilized, Discarding Sabot, Depleted
Uranium) round. This is a long and narrow depleted uranium "dart". It's
fired out of the 120mm gun using a "carrier" (the discarding sabot) which
fills the extra width in the gun (since the dart is so much narrower than the
gun barrel) and is discarded soon after leaving the gun. The radioactive
properties of the uranium are not important to the characteristics of the
weapon, since DU is less radioactive than naturally occuring uranium. The
weapon acheives a kinetic energy kill - it's travelling so fast that when it
hits it just punches a hole right through most armour.
One characteristic of the uranium that might be causing health effects is that
when it hits some of it tends to vapourize, and the resulting vapour probably
isn't good for you. Not as bad for you as being in a vehicle hit by an
APFSDS-DU in the first place, but not good for you. I don't think anybody has
studied the health effects of the cloud of vapourized uranium that probably
proceeds downwind after a modern tank battle.
--
Paul Tomblin, not speaking for anybody.
SETI@Home: Finally a *good* way to impress Jodie Foster
http://www.setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/
yu...@my-deja.com
ptom...@xcski.com (Paul Tomblin) wrote:
<snip sabot>
> One characteristic of the uranium that might be causing health
effects is that
> when it hits some of it tends to vapourize, and the resulting vapour
probably
> isn't good for you. Not as bad for you as being in a vehicle hit by
an
> APFSDS-DU in the first place, but not good for you. I don't think
anybody has
> studied the health effects of the cloud of vapourized uranium that
probably
> proceeds downwind after a modern tank battle.
The cloud outside the tank wasn't studied, but in one of the "friendly
fire" incidents one of the survivors did show some signs of
radioactivity in the lungs from the DU. However, these effects were
minor compared to the other effects of the sabot. Apparently, the
people investigating this were more than mildly surprised that anyone
survived the hit at all. This is documented on one of the pages I
mentioned a few days ago, but I can't find the exact page right now.
They did say, however, that the aerosol of uranium oxide produced by
the hit is much heavier than air, and would not persist for a long time
after the shot.
Joe Yuska
Cindy Kandolf
| The cramping idea was presented in a Disney cartoon, in one of the "I'm no
| fool" series. The cricket would talk about various dangers and the desire to
| live to 93. Goofy always was the victim. I still remember his legs and arms
| in knots, showing the cramps he had.
Disney apparently loved spreading this warning. On the front of a
bedroom closet in a seaside cabin belonging to my husband's uncle,
someone has hung a poster from an old Donald Duck comic book - looks
to be of about 1960s vintage. Anyway, the poster shows various Disney
characters either following or flaunting a set of rules about water
safety, and one of the rules is "don't swim for an hour after eating".
Unfortunately i can't tell you if Goofy is the victim again. The
picture had some blank spots, to be filled in with stickers that would
come in future editions of the comic book, and about half of the
stickers are missing.
Kids! Always remember to fasten *all* of the stickers on such
posters! Imagine what is lost to posterity if you give up half-way
through!
- Cindy Kandolf, certified language mechanic, mamma flodnak
flodmail: thefl...@ivillage.com flodhome: Bærum, Norway
flodweb: http://www.nethelp.no/cindy/
Rick Tyler
Prufer) wrote:
>On 31 Aug 1999 20:59:47 PDT, rty...@concentric.net (Rick Tyler) wrote:
>
>>Thatched roofs last a long time, up to 50 years, make use of natural
>>materials that are cheap and renewable, and provide good insulation.
>>For a cold rainly climate they are vastly preferable to North African
>>and Arab construction. What exactly is your beef with thatch?
>>
>"Modern" straw is not suited for thatch, as it will not last 50 years.
This is undoubtedly true. The only personal experience with thatching
I have is watching one episode of "This Old House" where Steve watched
an English thatching firm doing a roof with reeds, not straw.
For more information on thatching you can visit any one of a number of
Web sites (in Yahoo, I typed "thatching"). According to one of these,
http://www.thatching.com/, thatch can be made of reeds or straw. They
claim, "The life expectancy of a [reed] thatched roof is 60 to 70
years. These sturdy housetops are consistently a cubic foot
throughout. They not only keep out the elements; such as sleet snow
and rain, they are also impenetrable to bugs, birds and vermin.
Insurance rates these roofs similar to cedar shakes. The "R" value
(insulation value) of a thatched roof is 80. Conventional methods run
between 30 and 50." This web site goes on to say that a modern "long
straw" roof in East Anglia might last 50 years, but that 20 is more
likely. They also say that their experience is that straw thatching
does not last very long in "humid" areas of the United States.
<snip>
>(...)"American Museum of Frontier Culture",
>where they have several transplanted farmhouses[1], among them a
>thatched Irish one. The museum had had a thatcher in from UKoGBaNI,
>provided him with hand-reaped straw (to ensure sufficient length), and
>were disappointed with the durability two years later.
<snip>
My point was that during the time in question, 800-1000 years or so
ago, thatching was an appropriate roofing material, and was not a sign
of technological inadequacy.
-- Rick "I'm more of a architectural-grade composition shingle kind of
guy myself" Tyler