Origins of "1" and "0" on power switches
Daniel P. B. Smith
In 1964, I had a summer job in a biological research lab. The
microscope illuminator I used, which were made by a German firm, I
don't remember whether it was Zeiss or Leitz, was marked with what
I took to be the numerals 0 and 1, with 0 being "off" and 1 being "on."
Being a sort of junior computer nerd at the time, I uttered some kind
of lame jocularity about it which nobody understood,
and was told that in fact the characters were not the numerals 0 and 1,
but the letters O and I, which, it was said, were the initial
letters of the German words for "off" and "on" respectively.
a) Can someone who knows German confirm this? I was _very_ young
and someone _could_ have been pulling my leg.
b) This is sort of a Zen question: but are modern computers the same
way? That is, are the characters on modern computer power
switches which _appear_ to be the numerals 0 and 1
truly those numerals? Or are they really the letters O and I,
inherited from German custom, but conveniently overloaded
with a numeric interpretation for the benefit of non-German-speakers?
--
Daniel P. B. Smith
dpbs...@world.std.com
Charlie Gibbs
In article <Eu3H8...@world.std.com> dpbs...@world.std.com
(Daniel P. B. Smith) writes:
>b) This is sort of a Zen question: but are modern computers the same
> way? That is, are the characters on modern computer power
> switches which _appear_ to be the numerals 0 and 1
> truly those numerals? Or are they really the letters O and I,
> inherited from German custom, but conveniently overloaded
> with a numeric interpretation for the benefit of non-German-speakers?
Neither. The O represents an open pipe through which current can
flow, while the I represents a pipe which has been pinched closed,
stopping the current.
No, wait a minute, that's backwards.
The weirdest part is that late one night, when I had been hacking
way too long, I actually saw the symbols that way. So much for
hieroglyphics being self-explanatory...
--
cgi...@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs)
Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply.
Bruce James Robert Linley
In ye olden post "Charlie Gibbs" <cgi...@sky.bus.com> spake...
>In article <Eu3H8...@world.std.com> dpbs...@world.std.com
>(Daniel P. B. Smith) writes:
>
>>b) This is sort of a Zen question: but are modern computers the same
>> way? That is, are the characters on modern computer power
>> switches which _appear_ to be the numerals 0 and 1
>> truly those numerals? Or are they really the letters O and I,
>> inherited from German custom, but conveniently overloaded
>> with a numeric interpretation for the benefit of non-German-speakers?
>
>Neither. The O represents an open pipe through which current can
>flow, while the I represents a pipe which has been pinched closed,
>stopping the current.
Hmmmm. My monitor (which has only a single power button, not a switch)
has a "0" with a "1" inscribed within. How will the truly clueless know
that this means "power switch"? :)
--
Bruce James Robert Linley | +---+---+--_ | "Tea is always bitter... but
lin...@netcom.com | | |NV | UT | blood is warm and sweet."
Programmer, Fortunet Inc. | \ CA \ |___ |
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA ----------> \*| AZ | - Miyu
Dylan Rhodes
Daniel P. B. Smith wrote in message ...
[snip]
>b) This is sort of a Zen question: but are modern computers the same
> way? That is, are the characters on modern computer power
> switches which _appear_ to be the numerals 0 and 1
> truly those numerals? Or are they really the letters O and I,
> inherited from German custom, but conveniently overloaded
> with a numeric interpretation for the benefit of non-German-speakers?
I always figured that this nomenclature was some sort of homage to Lucy's
"Psychiatric Help" stand in Peanuts:
I == The electrons are IN
O == The electrons are OUT
-- Dylan
S. L. Wellborn
Neil Franklin wrote in message ...
>dpbs...@world.std.com (Daniel P. B. Smith) writes:
>> and was told that in fact the characters were not the numerals 0 and 1,
>> but the letters O and I, which, it was said, were the initial
>> letters of the German words for "off" and "on" respectively.
>>
>> a) Can someone who knows German confirm this? I was _very_ young
>> and someone _could_ have been pulling my leg.
>
>The German words are: Ein (On) and Aus (Off).
>
>How long is your leg now?
My Leica says Auf and Zu on the lever on the bottom, I take that to mean
open and close.
Peter Lindgren
Daniel P. B. Smith wrote:
>
> In 1964, I had a summer job in a biological research lab. The
> microscope illuminator I used, which were made by a German firm, I
> don't remember whether it was Zeiss or Leitz, was marked with what
> I took to be the numerals 0 and 1, with 0 being "off" and 1 being "on."
> Being a sort of junior computer nerd at the time, I uttered some kind
> of lame jocularity about it which nobody understood,
> but the letters O and I, which, it was said, were the initial
> letters of the German words for "off" and "on" respectively.
>
> a) Can someone who knows German confirm this? I was _very_ young
> and someone _could_ have been pulling my leg.
>
> way? That is, are the characters on modern computer power
> switches which _appear_ to be the numerals 0 and 1
> truly those numerals? Or are they really the letters O and I,
> inherited from German custom, but conveniently overloaded
> with a numeric interpretation for the benefit of non-German-speakers?
Since this is a folklore group, I feel obliged to answer. That is,
I have read German for two years at high school 10 years ago...
IIRC, "Auf" is "Off" and "Zu" is "On"; ISTR having seen that on
a German equipment somewhere. Of course, what I have seen may have
been exceptions to the rule... but I think Auf and Zu are fairly
common as Off and On, being a layman as I am.
Lots of disclaimers here... I hope any native German-speaking
people are around here to correct me... :-)
HTH,
Peter
--
Peter Lindgren Bachelor of Computer Engineering
Norrsken Konsult, Mölndal, Sweden 031 - 27 17 09
norrsken...@vaxjo.mail.telia.com 070 - 545 95 50
Neil Franklin
> but the letters O and I, which, it was said, were the initial
> letters of the German words for "off" and "on" respectively.
>
> a) Can someone who knows German confirm this? I was _very_ young
> and someone _could_ have been pulling my leg.
The German words are: Ein (On) and Aus (Off).
How long is your leg now?
--
private: Neil.F...@ccw.ch.remove http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/
office: fran...@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/
WinCE car, crashing soon on a road near you
Bill Richman
Is one of your legs longer than the other now? ;-) (AltaVista's
Babelfish translates "on" to "auf", and "off" to "weg von". I have no
idea if this is correct, but it seems to be a fairly obvious thing for
them not to have gotten right. It's an interesting story though; I
was sort of hoping it was true. It still could be, for all I know
about German...)
On Fri, 5 Jun 1998 20:07:23 GMT, dpbs...@world.std.com (Daniel P. B.
Smith) wrote:
<snip>
>and was told that in fact the characters were not the numerals 0 and 1,
>but the letters O and I, which, it was said, were the initial
>letters of the German words for "off" and "on" respectively.
>
>a) Can someone who knows German confirm this? I was _very_ young
> and someone _could_ have been pulling my leg.
<snip>
-Bill Richman
bil...@inetnebr.com
http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r
(Home of the COSMAC Elf Simulator!)
Translator
Well, Babelfish got "a fairly obvious thing" WRONG here -- they gave you
the wrong "on" (like "on the shelf") and the wrong "off" (like "a long way
off"). Did they provide alternatives? But in the sense "[to switch] on/off"
it would be "ein/aus[-schalten]". No German word-pair in this context could
possibly begin with "I" and "O"... though it might make for a good parlour
game. :-)
Bill Richman <bil...@inetnebr.com> wrote in article
<3599b440....@news.inetnebr.com>...<snip>
> (AltaVista's Babelfish translates "on" to "auf", and "off" to "weg von".
I have no
> idea if this is correct, but it seems to be a fairly obvious thing for
> them not to have gotten right.
>
jmf...@aol.com
In article <linleyEu...@netcom.com>,
lin...@netcom.com (Bruce James Robert Linley) wrote:
>In ye olden post "Charlie Gibbs" <cgi...@sky.bus.com> spake...
>>(Daniel P. B. Smith) writes:
>>
>>>b) This is sort of a Zen question: but are modern computers the same
>>> way? That is, are the characters on modern computer power
>>> switches which _appear_ to be the numerals 0 and 1
>>> truly those numerals? Or are they really the letters O and I,
>>> inherited from German custom, but conveniently overloaded
>>> with a numeric interpretation for the benefit of non-German-speakers?
>>
>>flow, while the I represents a pipe which has been pinched closed,
>>stopping the current.
>
>Hmmmm. My monitor (which has only a single power button, not a switch)
>has a "0" with a "1" inscribed within. How will the truly clueless know
>that this means "power switch"? :)
>
above it. The light shines when the screen shines. How's that for
clueless :-))).
/BAH
Joe Morris
"Dylan Rhodes" <drh...@soundblaster.com> writes:
>I always figured that this nomenclature was some sort of homage to Lucy's
>"Psychiatric Help" stand in Peanuts:
>I == The electrons are IN
>O == The electrons are OUT
ROFLMAO!
The subject of the on/off markings for power switches is one of the
recurring threads in a.f.c, but your posting is one of the funniest
"explanations" that I've seen. Thank you!
(For the non-US readers who might be baffled by the reference: "Peanuts"
is a comic strip in many daily and Sunday newspapers in the US. It's
been published for 40-odd years, and one of the running gags in it
involves the character "Lucy" in a ramshackle sidewalk stand, offering
psychiatric advice for five cents. The stand has a sign hanging on
it with the notice "The doctor is IN").
Joe Morris
David E. Fox
On Fri, 05 Jun 1998, Bruce James Robert Linley wrote:
>Hmmmm. My monitor (which has only a single power button, not a switch)
>has a "0" with a "1" inscribed within. How will the truly clueless know
>that this means "power switch"? :)
My Nokia has inscribed under the power button what looks like a large circle,
and at the top of this circle is a little gap with a '1' inside that gap, offset
just a tiny bit higher than the circle itself.
It's got other 'international' symbols for the headphone and microphone
connections, but 'select' and 'adjust' are indeed labled as "SELECT" and
"ADJUST".
>Bruce James Robert Linley | +---+---+--_ | "Tea is always bitter... but
>lin...@netcom.com | | |NV | UT | blood is warm and sweet."
>Programmer, Fortunet Inc. | \ CA \ |___ |
>Las Vegas, Nevada, USA ----------> \*| AZ | - Miyu
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David E. Fox Tax Thanks for letting me
df...@belvdere.vip.best.com the change magnetic patterns
ro...@belvedere.sbay.org churches on your hard disk.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
bme...@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au
Peter Lindgren <norrsken...@vaxjo.mail.telia.com> writes:
>Since this is a folklore group, I feel obliged to answer. That is,
>I have read German for two years at high school 10 years ago...
>IIRC, "Auf" is "Off" and "Zu" is "On"; ISTR having seen that on
>a German equipment somewhere. Of course, what I have seen may have
>been exceptions to the rule... but I think Auf and Zu are fairly
>common as Off and On, being a layman as I am.
Actually, "Auf" and "Zu" are more akin to "open" and "closed" (i.e.
appropriate for a valve).
"On" and "Off" would be "An" and "Aus". I can't think of any words for
"on" that starts with an 'I', nor one for "off" that starts with 'O'.
Bernie
--
============================================================================
"It's a magical world, Hobbes ol' buddy...
...let's go exploring"
Calvin's final words, on December 31st, 1995
Jan van den Broek
lin...@netcom.com (Bruce James Robert Linley) writes:
>Hmmmm. My monitor (which has only a single power button, not a switch)
>has a "0" with a "1" inscribed within. How will the truly clueless know
>that this means "power switch"? :)
Funny, my monitor (and my computer as well, both Philips) have the same
symbol, but the word "Power" next to it.
Met groeten, |
Jan van den Broek |
balg...@xs4all.nl |
----------------------------------------+---------------------------------------
| make it so
| Make: don't know how to make it. Stop.
|
Jan van den Broek
bil...@inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) writes:
>Is one of your legs longer than the other now? ;-) (AltaVista's
>Babelfish translates "on" to "auf", and "off" to "weg von". I have no
^^^^^^^
As in "I'm off to the store". Although German never was one of my stronger
subjects when I was in school, I would go voor "Ein" (On) and "Aus" (off).
(sig corrected by a German)
________________________________________________________________________________
Jan van den Broek
balg...@xs4all.nl
Der fabelhafte Tony und sein elektronischer Schnell-Imbiss
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
William...@nashville.com
On 1998-06-07 balg...@xs4all.nl said:
>As in "I'm off to the store". Although German never was one of my
>stronger subjects when I was in school, I would go voor "Ein" (On)
>and "Aus" (off). (sig corrected by a German)
Ein sounds like eins, so maybe that's where the I or 1 came from.
Lawrence Wilkinson
In article <linleyEu...@netcom.com>, Bruce James Robert Linley
<lin...@netcom.com> writes
>Hmmmm. My monitor (which has only a single power button, not a switch)
>has a "0" with a "1" inscribed within. How will the truly clueless know
>that this means "power switch"? :)
This is the (international?) standard symbol for a push-on/push-off
power button, with the 0 and 1 superimposed, though there seem to be a
few versions of the symbol in use. As a language-independent marking,
it seems as good as any.
--
Lawrence Wilkinson l...@formula1.demon.co.uk
Ph +44(0)370-810293 lawrence....@pigroup.co.uk
Fax +44(0)7070-712851 http://www.formula1.demon.co.uk
Ron Hunsinger
In article <357cf4bc...@news.innet.be>, luc...@null.net (Luc Van der
Veken) wrote:
> But I doubt if the origin of "1" an "0" on switches is German.
It could be English. I=In; O=Out. As in "if it were a pushbutton, you could
tell be feel, but since I put in this toggle switch it's not obvious which
setting corresponds to pushing the button IN, and which to letting it OUT,
so I'll label them I/O."
(But frankly, I don't believe it. 1=yes=on and 0=no=off are so intuitive,
and IMO language independent that there's no reason to think the markings
are supposed to be letters.)
-Ron Hunsinger
Juergen Nieveler
Disclaimer: Views are my own, not my employers !
Luc Van der Veken schrieb in Nachricht <357cf4bc...@news.innet.be>...
>William...@nashville.com told us
>example.
>But I doubt if the origin of "1" an "0" on switches is German.
>
Actually, they are Latin. I is latin or 1. Unfortunately these are the only
latin numbers on computers, otherwise you would have a sign on it saying it
uses CCXXX Volts :)
Disclaimer: Views are my own, not my employers !
Lauri Levanto
Juergen Nieveler wrote:
>
> Disclaimer: Views are my own, not my employers !
> Luc Van der Veken schrieb in Nachricht <357cf4bc...@news.innet.be>...
> >But I doubt if the origin of "1" an "0" on switches is German.
> >
> --
> Actually, they are Latin. I is latin or 1. Unfortunately these are the only
> latin numbers on computers, otherwise you would have a sign on it saying it
> uses CCXXX Volts :)
I stands for one in Latin, but they had no zero!
That is why the Romans adopted Arabic numbers,we still use.
The zero was invented in India, and the Arabs brought the news to west.
On a second thought, The Romans had no electricity, no power switches!
- lauri
Gene Wirchenko
hns...@sirius.com (Ron Hunsinger) wrote:
>In article <357cf4bc...@news.innet.be>, luc...@null.net (Luc Van der
>Veken) wrote:
>
>> But I doubt if the origin of "1" an "0" on switches is German.
>
>It could be English. I=In; O=Out. As in "if it were a pushbutton, you could
>tell be feel, but since I put in this toggle switch it's not obvious which
>setting corresponds to pushing the button IN, and which to letting it OUT,
>so I'll label them I/O."
>
>(But frankly, I don't believe it. 1=yes=on and 0=no=off are so intuitive,
>and IMO language independent that there's no reason to think the markings
>are supposed to be letters.)
So intuitive to whom? I think it's a matter of what you get used
to or were taught.
At one ex-workplace, we brought in a system with a power switch
labelled that way. Our office manager looked at and asked if it was
the power switch. It wasn't obvious to her. So much for the
user-friendliness of a Mac! The amusing part of it is that the 0 and
1 were part of the case NOT the switch. Apple could have easily had
the case labelling be something more intuitive.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
C Pronunciation Guide:
y=x++; "wye equals ex plus plus semicolon"
x=x++; "ex equals ex doublecross semicolon"
Bruce James Robert Linley
In ye olden post ge...@vip.net spake...
>
> At one ex-workplace, we brought in a system with a power switch
>labelled that way. Our office manager looked at and asked if it was
>the power switch. It wasn't obvious to her. So much for the
>user-friendliness of a Mac! The amusing part of it is that the 0 and
>1 were part of the case NOT the switch. Apple could have easily had
>the case labelling be something more intuitive.
You foolish Hyu-mahn. :) Of course, Mac power switches are not well
labeled. They're not meant to be used except in dire situations.
In fact, the switches are usually buried under a rigde or on the
back of the machine to discourage its use.
Pressing the key with the |> symbol turns the machine on and
the OFF function is buried in the Special menu. Now that's intuitive!!
--
Charlie Gibbs
In article <6lbckr$cdc$2...@strato.ultra.net> jmf...@aol.com (jmfbah)
writes:
>In article <linleyEu...@netcom.com>,
>lin...@netcom.com (Bruce James Robert Linley) wrote:
>>Hmmmm. My monitor (which has only a single power button, not a switch)
>>has a "0" with a "1" inscribed within. How will the truly clueless
>>know that this means "power switch"? :)
>
>Because next to that button is a little light with the word "power"
>above it. The light shines when the screen shines. How's that for
>clueless :-))).
Hmm, I have three machines here in front of me. Let's look at them...
Machine 1 has the power switch on the right side, way down at the
back. There is no power light.
Machine 2 has the power switch right on the back, and a power light
on the front.
(Admittedly, these two machines date from the days when one of the
favourite games of computer manufacturers was "hide the power switch".)
Machine 3 has a power switch on the right side of the front panel.
Near the left side are three lights labeled HDD, Turbo, and Power.
They're just above the key lock, reset, and turbo buttons respectively.
Sigh...
BBReynolds
In article <357BC9...@nmp.nokia.com>, Lauri Levanto
<lauri....@nmp.nokia.com> writes:
>On a second thought, The Romans had no electricity, no power switches!
>
>- lauri
The Romans had electricity, they just didn't know what to do with it; those
Roman fingers/noses got zapped on Roman bronze door handles, just as we do.
--
Bruce B. Reynolds, Systems Consultant:
Founder of Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA and Niles IL:
Sweeping Up Behind Data Processing Dinosaurs
lee...@kettering.edu
On Mon, 8 Jun 1998, Bruce James Robert Linley wrote:
> In ye olden post ge...@vip.net spake...
> >
> > At one ex-workplace, we brought in a system with a power switch
> >labelled that way. Our office manager looked at and asked if it was
> >the power switch. It wasn't obvious to her. So much for the
> >user-friendliness of a Mac! The amusing part of it is that the 0 and
> >1 were part of the case NOT the switch. Apple could have easily had
> >the case labelling be something more intuitive.
>
> You foolish Hyu-mahn. :) Of course, Mac power switches are not well
> labeled. They're not meant to be used except in dire situations.
> In fact, the switches are usually buried under a rigde or on the
> back of the machine to discourage its use.
>
> Pressing the key with the |> symbol turns the machine on and
> the OFF function is buried in the Special menu. Now that's intuitive!!
Sorry, but your arrow is backwards. It's actually a <| symbol. I figure
that Apple feels that if you can figure out how to turn the damn thing on
then you should be able to use it easily. If not, well, a job at
McDonald's in not completely degrading.
dave porter
Hmm, I believe that 0/1 are just standard
European language-neutral labelling (I'm English).
This could however simply be a case of YKYBHTLW.
I can't check by looking at household appliances,
though, since I'm living in the USA now.
dave
Alexandre Pechtchanski
On 7 Jun 1998 13:47:48 +0200, Jan van den Broek <balg...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>lin...@netcom.com (Bruce James Robert Linley) writes:
>
>>Hmmmm. My monitor (which has only a single power button, not a switch)
>>has a "0" with a "1" inscribed within. How will the truly clueless know
>>that this means "power switch"? :)
>
>Funny, my monitor (and my computer as well, both Philips) have the same
>symbol, but the word "Power" next to it.
It's the special model for countries where English is not an official language.
[ When replying, remove *'s from address ]
Alexandre Pechtchanski, Systems Manager, RUH, NY
Dan Bernstein
Bruce James Robert Linley wrote:
> Pressing the key with the |> symbol turns the machine on and
> the OFF function is buried in the Special menu. Now that's intuitive!!
other way, btw) brings up a dialog box with that lets you choose between Shut
Down, Restart, and (of course) Cancel.
--Dan (me? Mac advocacy? on afc?) Bernstein
Simon Slavin
In article <linleyEu...@netcom.com>,
lin...@netcom.com (Bruce James Robert Linley) wrote:
> In ye olden post ge...@vip.net spake...
>
> > [snip] The amusing part of it is that the 0 and
> >1 were part of the case NOT the switch. Apple could have easily had
> >the case labelling be something more intuitive.
>
> You foolish Hyu-mahn. :) Of course, Mac power switches are not well
> labeled. They're not meant to be used except in dire situations.
> In fact, the switches are usually buried under a rigde or on the
> back of the machine to discourage its use.
>
> Pressing the key with the |> symbol turns the machine on and
> the OFF function is buried in the Special menu. Now that's intuitive!!
Firstly, why would anyone ever want to turn a computer with a decent
OS off ? All you're doing is unnecessarily stressing the electronic
components. Simply stop doing things with your computer and it'll
retreat into power-save mode. Okay, you may want to turn it off if
you move house/office or if you're going on holiday.
Secondly, about three years ago the operating system started
responding to the power key by asking if you wanted to shutdown, so
you can now use the same key to turn the Mac off as you used to turn
it on. You don't even need to switch back to the Finder.
I agree that they could have used a better symbol for the power key.
I had assumed that it was meant to represent an arrow pointing
forwards but it doesn't seem to symbolise that to me.
Simon.
--
Simon Slavin | [T-rations] were supposed to serve 8
Check email address for UBE-guard. | soldiers, but since no one would eat
Junktrap deletes >4 UBEs/day unread. | them one tray would do for an infinite
<http://www.hearsay.demon.co.uk> | number. -- Dave Wilton
S. T.
dave porter (por...@wultranet.com) wrote on 9 Jun 1998 13:19:05 GMT:
> Hmm, I believe that 0/1 are just standard
> European language-neutral labelling (I'm English).
I can't think of *any* device I use that has a 0/1 label (well,
pushbuttons rarely have them anyway:). Almost everything has a power
indicator, tho.
S. T.
Luc Van der Veken (luc...@null.net) wrote on Mon, 08 Jun 1998 15:01:22 GMT:
> Lauri Levanto <lauri....@nmp.nokia.com> told us
[snip]
> > I stands for one in Latin, but they had no zero!
> > That is why the Romans adopted Arabic numbers,we still use.
> > The zero was invented in India, and the Arabs brought the news to west.
> >
> > On a second thought, The Romans had no electricity, no power switches!
>
> They did have running water, though.
Their water supply must have been exhausted. ;)
lee...@kettering.edu
My guess would be that the triangle isn't supposed to mean power seeing as
how it's been on Mac keyboards for years but only recently has it achieved
a purpose.
Ben Harris
In article <Pine.GSO.3.95q.98061...@nova.kettering.edu>,[Mac power key]
>> I agree that they could have used a better symbol for the power key.
>> I had assumed that it was meant to represent an arrow pointing
>> forwards but it doesn't seem to symbolise that to me.
>
>My guess would be that the triangle isn't supposed to mean power seeing as
>how it's been on Mac keyboards for years but only recently has it achieved
>a purpose.
Hardly recently. The Mac II (1987) was apparently one of the first Macs
with ADB (along with the SE) and it could be turned on with the power key.
Since pre-ADB keyboards didn't have power keys, it looks like power keys
and Macs that used them came in about the same time.
--
Ben Harris
Computer Officer, Corpus Christi College, Cambridge.
Peter Seebach
In article <Pine.GSO.3.95q.98061...@nova.kettering.edu>,
<lee...@kettering.edu> wrote:
>My guess would be that the triangle isn't supposed to mean power seeing as
>how it's been on Mac keyboards for years but only recently has it achieved
>a purpose.
I've never seen a mac with that key that didn't use it to power on.
-s
--
Copyright '98, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / se...@plethora.net
C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon!
Not speaking for my employer. Questions on C/Unix? Send mail for help.
Visit my new ISP <URL:http://www.plethora.net/> --- More Net, Less Spam!
JK...@softwright.co.uk
In article <9XRf1.741$bj2.3...@ptah.visi.com>,
se...@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) wrote:
>
> In article <Pine.GSO.3.95q.98061...@nova.kettering.edu>,
> <lee...@kettering.edu> wrote:
> >My guess would be that the triangle isn't supposed to mean power seeing as
> >how it's been on Mac keyboards for years but only recently has it achieved
> >a purpose.
>
> I've never seen a mac with that key that didn't use it to power on.
<cough> SE. SE/30.
I remember being totally wowed by powering up a II from the keyboard; and
having it power itself down after shutdown...
--
James Kew
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Eric Fischer
<lee...@kettering.edu> wrote:
> My guess would be that the triangle isn't supposed to mean power seeing as
> how it's been on Mac keyboards for years but only recently has it achieved
> a purpose.
The thing is, ADB keyboards were used on the Apple IIgs for a year or
so before the first ADB Macintoshes were released. On the IIgs, the
key we know on Macs as the "power" key was the "reset" key. And on the
Mac SE, which was one of the original two ADB Macs, the "power" key did
nothing at all because the SE had a mechanical power switch. So given
this, an unambiguous "power" label would have been highly confusing
when the keyboard was used on any computer other than a Mac II.
eric
Ralph Wade Phillips
Hi, Lee!
lee...@kettering.edu wrote in message ...
(stuff deleted for bandwidth)>
>My guess would be that the triangle isn't supposed to mean power seeing as
>how it's been on Mac keyboards for years but only recently has it achieved
>a purpose.
>
Bad guess. It meant "Power On" on the original Macintosh II - the
first of the ADB machines (well, concurrent with the SE, but it was a matter
of reusing the ADB without the soft-switch features on the SE - it was
designed for the Macintosh II.)
RwP
Ralph Wade Phillips
Hi, Peter!
Peter Seebach wrote in message <9XRf1.741$bj2.3...@ptah.visi.com>...
>In article <Pine.GSO.3.95q.98061...@nova.kettering.edu>,
> <lee...@kettering.edu> wrote:
>>My guess would be that the triangle isn't supposed to mean power seeing as
>>how it's been on Mac keyboards for years but only recently has it achieved
>>a purpose.
>
>I've never seen a mac with that key that didn't use it to power on.
>
Concurrent with the intro of the Macintosh II (which used it), the
Macintosh SE came out (which DIDN'T use it - it had a hardware switch on the
power supply.) Nor the SE/30, nor the LC / 2 / 3, nor ...
RwP
Eric J. Korpela
In article <9XRf1.741$bj2.3...@ptah.visi.com>,
Peter Seebach <se...@plethora.net> wrote:
>In article <Pine.GSO.3.95q.98061...@nova.kettering.edu>,
> <lee...@kettering.edu> wrote:
>>My guess would be that the triangle isn't supposed to mean power seeing as
>>how it's been on Mac keyboards for years but only recently has it achieved
>>a purpose.
>
>I've never seen a mac with that key that didn't use it to power on.
How about the Apple //gs? While not a Mac, it had an ADB keyboard with
the back arrow. I don't think it controlled power on the //gs. I could
be wrong however.
Eric
--
Eric Korpela | An object at rest can never be
kor...@ssl.berkeley.edu | stopped.
<a href="http://sag-www.ssl.berkeley.edu/~korpela">Click for home page.</a>
Peter Seebach
In article <6lp21r$t71$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <JK...@softwright.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <9XRf1.741$bj2.3...@ptah.visi.com>,
> se...@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) wrote:
><cough> SE. SE/30.
Our SE didn't have that key.
Peter Seebach
In article <EuECp...@news.boeing.com>,
Ralph Wade Phillips <ral...@techie.com> wrote:
>Peter Seebach wrote in message <9XRf1.741$bj2.3...@ptah.visi.com>...
> Concurrent with the intro of the Macintosh II (which used it), the
>Macintosh SE came out (which DIDN'T use it - it had a hardware switch on the
>power supply.) Nor the SE/30, nor the LC / 2 / 3, nor ...
Yeah, we had an SE (my first computer since the Z-100, at the time). It
didn't have the triangle-key at all. I suppose you could have put a different
keyboard on it...
lee...@kettering.edu
On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Peter Seebach wrote:
> In article <Pine.GSO.3.95q.98061...@nova.kettering.edu>,
> <lee...@kettering.edu> wrote:
> >My guess would be that the triangle isn't supposed to mean power seeing as
> >how it's been on Mac keyboards for years but only recently has it achieved
> >a purpose.
>
> I've never seen a mac with that key that didn't use it to power on.
Not a definitive list but here goes:
Macintosh
Macintosh 512k
512KE
Plus
SE
SE/30
Classic
Classic II
Color Classic (?)
Many II series
Many LC series
Early Performas
Ralph Wade Phillips
Hi, Eric!
Would you like to give evidence of the timeline? Especially since,
as I remember, the SE and Macintosh II came out earlier in the same year as
the IIgs?
RwP
Eric Fischer wrote in message ...
><lee...@kettering.edu> wrote:
>
>> My guess would be that the triangle isn't supposed to mean power seeing
as
>> how it's been on Mac keyboards for years but only recently has it
achieved
>> a purpose.
>
Peter Seebach
Hmm. Did all of them have this key, or was this some kind of interchangable
part nightmare?
Eric Fischer
Peter Seebach <se...@plethora.net> wrote:
> Hmm. Did all of them have this key, or was this some kind of interchangable
> part nightmare?
Two keyboards were initially available: the "Apple Keyboard", which
was the IIgs keyboard repackaged in a slightly larger case, and the
"Extended Keyboard", which was a variant on the 101-key PC keyboard.
Both had the "power" key, the former as a double-width button centered
above the top row, the latter as a normal key at the upper right. I
remember seeing adapters sold to attach Mac Plus keyboards to ADB Macs,
but these were not common.
eric
Eric Fischer
Ralph Wade Phillips <ral...@techie.com> wrote:
> Would you like to give evidence of the timeline? Especially since, as
> I remember, the SE and Macintosh II came out earlier in the same year
> as the IIgs?
I refer you to MacUser magazine: the December 1986 issue ("A Mac of
another color? Why Apple's new IIgs is going to help the Mac")
features the introduction of the IIgs, while the April, 1987 issue
("Meet two new Macs: Here's the new SE. Meet the Mac II on page
74.") cover story is the new II and SE.
eric
Brendan Hahn
kor...@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) wrote:
>Peter Seebach <se...@plethora.net> wrote:
>>
>>I've never seen a mac with that key that didn't use it to power on.
>
>the back arrow. I don't think it controlled power on the //gs. I could
>be wrong however.
The key is actually the descendant of the "reset" key of the Apple II. The
IIgs, being in the II family, needed a "reset" but also, being an ADB
machine, needed a keyboard design it could share with Macs. The triangle
key is the generically relabelled counterpart of "reset." The choice of
the triangle was deliberately vague, I expect, since the key didn't have a
well-defined meaning but did different things depending on what it was
plugged into. For the IIgs, it served as reset. For Macs with soft-power
support (IIs, Quadras, PowerMacs) it became the power-on key. On other
Macs, for quite a while it didn't have any official purpose at all. The
functionality of "reset" on the Apple IIs was handled by both kinds of Macs
with hardware interrupt switches, one to drop you into the monitor and one
to reset the machine. Eventually, someone put out an extension
(Programmer's Key) that used the "power" key for the same thing, so you
could mimic the original Apple II "reset" exactly: open-apple-reset became
command-power, and adding control gave you the three-finger-salute (you
could set different modifiers, though). Eventually, that function became
part of the standard system software, along with the ability to sleep,
restart, or shut down from the power key.
There's one other mark of Apple II heritage in the ADB keyboards. The
"command" modifier key is labelled with both the open-apple symbol of the
Apple II and the propeller of the pre-ADB Macs. Closed-apple has passed
away, though.
bh...@transoft.mangle.net <-- unmangle to reply
Hans Chloride
Hmmm.... Dunno if it's true or UL, but I heard the Romans lined their
copper wine goblets and the like with lead in the belief that copper
was poisonous. I wonder if they did the same with their Aqua-Ducks?
HC
Kin Hoong CHUNG
Dan Bernstein (at...@cleveland.freenet.edu) wrote:
: Bruce James Robert Linley wrote:
: > Pressing the key with the |> symbol turns the machine on and
: > the OFF function is buried in the Special menu. Now that's intuitive!!
: other way, btw) brings up a dialog box with that lets you choose between Shut
: Down, Restart, and (of course) Cancel.
Sorry, but I could not resist:
"Yes, but is the "Cancel" shaded in grey as "Restart" used to be after
a bomb appeared :-):-):-)."
Cheers,
Kin Hoong
Robert Billing
Hans Chloride wrote:
> was poisonous. I wonder if they did the same with their Aqua-Ducks?
> HC
They certainly used lead piping, some of which still exists, look in
the museum at Bath. Also, think where the word "plumbing" comes from, it
is derived from the latin for lead.
--
I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal
lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/
"Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock
phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three"
Heinz W. Wiggeshoff
Robert Billing (uncl...@tnglwood.demon.co.uk) writes:
>
> They certainly used lead piping, some of which still exists, look in
> the museum at Bath. Also, think where the word "plumbing" comes from, it
> is derived from the latin for lead.
As in that leaden feeling you get when the plumber renders the bill.
lis...@zetnet.co.uk
On 1998-06-12 chlo...@transport.com(HansChloride) said:
:Hmmm.... Dunno if it's true or UL, but I heard the Romans lined
:their copper wine goblets and the like with lead in the belief that
:copper was poisonous. I wonder if they did the same with their
:Aqua-Ducks?
copper *is* poisonous. it's just that they didn't realise that lead is
rather more so, and they had soft water in too many areas of their
world. (lead pipes are less of a problem with hard water; the scale
effectively seals off the lead from the water.)
lead pipes were in use in britain right up until well after the turn pf
the century.
--
Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling
you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her...
Simon Slavin
> I remember being totally wowed by powering up a II from the keyboard; and
> having it power itself down after shutdown...
Wasn't it awesome ? About ten years later I experienced the same
thing again by using PlainTalk (speech recognition technology):
You could /tell/ your computer to eject the floppy disk and it would !
Daniel P. B. Smith
>Color Classic (?)
Nope, the Color Classic definitely powered on from the keyboard power
switch.
--
Daniel P. B. Smith
dpbs...@world.std.com
Robert Billing
lis...@zetnet.co.uk wrote:
> lead pipes were in use in britain right up until well after the turn pf
> the century.
It's only 10 years or so since I pulled the last few bits out of this
house.
Ian Stirling
Robert Billing <uncl...@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> wrote:
: lis...@zetnet.co.uk wrote:
:> lead pipes were in use in britain right up until well after the turn pf
:> the century.
: It's only 10 years or so since I pulled the last few bits out of this
: house.
AIUI, this house still has lead from the main on the street, to the house
(15M)
--
See http://www.mauve.demon.co.uk/ |Linux PDA, cheap electronics/PC bits sale.
See_header,_for_UCE_policy___________|_____________________________Ian_Stirling.
"The device every conquerer, yes, every altruistic liberator should be required
to wear on his shield... is a little girl and her kitten, at ground zero"
Sir Dominic Flandry in Poul Anderson's A Knight of Ghosts and Shadows
Harold Rabbie
Alan Bowler <atbo...@thinkage.on.ca> wrote in article
<6m6m14$1sf$1...@nntp2.uunet.ca>...
> It takes time to things more subtle effects to get noticed.
> Having lead pipe plumbing with clean water, means that most kids grow
> up with mild lead poisoning and are a few IQ points below what their
> genes would allow. However, they do grow up.
While we're totally off the subject of computer folklore and into British
plumbing, I've always wondered why the building code in the UK requires an
open COLD water tank in every residence. This tank supplies all the taps
but the kitchen sink, IIRC. It means that you can't get decent pressure in
a shower head, and may even encourage the growth of mouldy uglies in the
tank that then get onto your toothbrush. Now you know why Brits never take
a shower.....
Here in the former colonies and most other parts of the uncivilized world,
we feed the loo and the shower right from mains water pressure, to no
apparent disadvantage. We may even have a few more IQ points, since we
don't do lead pipes.
--
Harold Rabbie
Saratoga CA, formerly of London UK
Remove spam trap when replying
JK...@softwright.co.uk
In article <6m7q7h$s...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>,
"Harold Rabbie" <hzra...@worldnet.REMOVE.THIS.att.net> wrote:
>
> While we're totally off the subject of computer folklore and into British
> plumbing, I've always wondered why the building code in the UK requires an
> open COLD water tank in every residence.
It doesn't -- may have done so in the past, but there's certainly no tank in
my flat or in the flat I rented previously. Very common in houses, though.
We discovered the advantages of having one recently when the water in our
road was turned off for 18 hours for emergency mains repairs: having several
hundred gallons in reserve would have avoided a lot of mucking about with
buckets.
> This tank supplies all the taps
> but the kitchen sink, IIRC.
Yep: the kitchen tap is supposed to be "fresh" water.
> It means that you can't get decent pressure in
> a shower head, and may even encourage the growth of mouldy uglies in the
> tank that then get onto your toothbrush.
Well, the tank's up in the loft in the dark which discourages algae and mould
growth; and it's sensible to keep a lid on it. But still, hmm, yes... and I'm
not even going to try to defend British showers.
ObAFU: erm, uh, British oddities: anyone remember the Jupiter ACE? Little
white ZX81-lookalike which ran a built-in FORTH. Did any ever escape the
country? Come to that, did many ever escape the factory?
B.A.L.T.Y.N.
Yes indeed. Great little number. 'Cos of FORTH, ran much faster than
the ZX81, which used BASIC. Membrane keypad, 16k add-on RAM pack.
Unfortunately, no-one wrote commercial software for it, so it died a
death like soooo many others.
B.A.L.T.Y.N.
<On message, up to speed and touching base>
M.C. van den Bovenkamp
JK...@softwright.co.uk wrote:
> ObAFU: erm, uh, British oddities: anyone remember the Jupiter ACE?
Yup, I do, although I don't think I ever saw one in the flesh.
> Little white ZX81-lookalike which ran a built-in FORTH.
It was more than just a lookalike as I recall. I believe it actually
*was* a ZX81 (or even an ZX80) internally, with a FORTH ROM instead of
the standard Sinclair BASIC one.
> Did any ever escape the country? Come to that, did many ever escape the factory?
Not many, I think...
Regards,
--
Marco van den Bovenkamp.
CIO EMEA Network Design Engineer,
Lucent Technologies Nederland.
Room: HVS BZK 38
Tel.: (+31-35-687)2724
Mail: bove...@lucent.com
B.A.L.T.Y.N.
On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, M.C. van den Bovenkamp wrote:
> JK...@softwright.co.uk wrote:
>
> > ObAFU: erm, uh, British oddities: anyone remember the Jupiter ACE?
>
> Yup, I do, although I don't think I ever saw one in the flesh.
>
> > Little white ZX81-lookalike which ran a built-in FORTH.
>
> It was more than just a lookalike as I recall. I believe it actually
> *was* a ZX81 (or even an ZX80) internally, with a FORTH ROM instead of
> the standard Sinclair BASIC one.
>
> > Did any ever escape the country? Come to that, did many ever escape the factory?
>
> Not many, I think...
>
> Regards,
>
> --
> Marco van den Bovenkamp.
Marco does indeed remember correctly. A different ROM, a different
paint job and you had another budding competitor in the early 80's home
computer foray.
Does anyone remember the SAM Coupe? British machine that died a death;
at the time it was the most advanced 8-bit ever; separate music and
video chips, very hi-res graphics, AND the ability to run Spectrum
software (in theory, anyway). All wrapped round a Z80. The press at
the time hailed it as a revolution; afterwards they compared to a
Ferrari with the engine of a compact inside. Oh, how they turned.
Very rare so I hear, possibly worth quite a bit. Anyone got one?
Also, anyone ever own a Sinclair QL? Hopeless attempt at a business
machine.
David Given
In article <6m7q7h$s...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>,
Harold Rabbie <hzra...@worldnet.REMOVE.THIS.att.net> wrote:
>
><6m6m14$1sf$1...@nntp2.uunet.ca>...
>
>> It takes time to things more subtle effects to get noticed.
>> Having lead pipe plumbing with clean water, means that most kids grow
>> up with mild lead poisoning and are a few IQ points below what their
>> genes would allow. However, they do grow up.
>
>plumbing, I've always wondered why the building code in the UK requires an
>but the kitchen sink, IIRC. It means that you can't get decent pressure in
>a shower head, and may even encourage the growth of mouldy uglies in the
>a shower.....
I think it's odd, too, and I'm British (Scottish, actually; I've had to
move down to Reading for a job. I really want to get back to
civilisation). The reason I've most often heard is that the mains water
pressure can be too high for most domestic piping, but I've never believed
it.
If I ever install my own plumbing, I'm going to try very hard to do away
with the cold water tank. Which reminds me: I most go up to the attic of
my new rented house and investigate the tank. I've got a feeling birds can
get into my attic.
And you *don't* want to know about the shower.
--
+- David Given ----------------+
| Work: d...@tao.co.uk | Disclaimer: We have no wish to offend
| Play: dgi...@iname.com | you unless you're a twit.
+- http://wiredsoc.ml.org/~dg -+
Peter Seebach
In article <6m7q7h$s...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>,
Harold Rabbie <hzra...@worldnet.REMOVE.THIS.att.net> wrote:
>we feed the loo and the shower right from mains water pressure, to no
>apparent disadvantage. We may even have a few more IQ points, since we
>don't do lead pipes.
We still have a few left. The local water commission offered to do a free
test on my water for lead, since apparently there's lead pipe coming to my
house.
Explains why I got a windows machine, I guess.
Walter Gray
In article <6m7q7h$s...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>, "Harold Rabbie" <hzra...@worldnet.REMOVE.THIS.att.net> writes:
:
:Alan Bowler <atbo...@thinkage.on.ca> wrote in article
:<6m6m14$1sf$1...@nntp2.uunet.ca>...
:
:> It takes time to things more subtle effects to get noticed.
:> Having lead pipe plumbing with clean water, means that most kids grow
:> up with mild lead poisoning and are a few IQ points below what their
:> genes would allow. However, they do grow up.
:
:While we're totally off the subject of computer folklore and into British
:plumbing, I've always wondered why the building code in the UK requires an
:open COLD water tank in every residence. This tank supplies all the taps
:but the kitchen sink, IIRC. It means that you can't get decent pressure in
:a shower head, and may even encourage the growth of mouldy uglies in the
:tank that then get onto your toothbrush. Now you know why Brits never take
:a shower.....
The tank arrangement is supposed to prevent back-siphoning into the
public water main because the water pressure is low because parts of
the system are 200 years old because etc etc etc
:
:Here in the former colonies and most other parts of the uncivilized world,
:we feed the loo and the shower right from mains water pressure, to no
:apparent disadvantage. We may even have a few more IQ points, since we
:don't do lead pipes.
You must have lead pipes. Never heard of a "lead pipe cinch"? The
increased IQ is probably due to the high quality of US TV programmes.
Walter
Disclaimer: My employer is not responsible for this stuff.
Tony Duell
: > ObAFU: erm, uh, British oddities: anyone remember the Jupiter ACE?
: Yup, I do, although I don't think I ever saw one in the flesh.
: > Little white ZX81-lookalike which ran a built-in FORTH.
: It was more than just a lookalike as I recall. I believe it actually
: *was* a ZX81 (or even an ZX80) internally, with a FORTH ROM instead of
: the standard Sinclair BASIC one.
Well my Ace is electrically _very_ different from a ZX81. It has 3K of
RAM - 1K for program storage, 1K for the screen, and 1K for the character
generator. The latter was loaded with the standard character set from ROM
when the machine is turned on, but can be redefined.
The video display is generated in hardware (counters/shift registers),
not partially by the Z-80 like the ZX81 does.
Oh yes, there's no ULA (all standard chips), the expansion connector
pinout is different, and there's another edge connector for video
expansion, which brings out the video counter signals, etc.
: > Did any ever escape the country? Come to that, did many ever escape the factory?
-tony
Tony Duell
B.A.L.T.Y.N. (wb6...@bris.ac.uk) wrote:
[Jupiter Ace]
: Yes indeed. Great little number. 'Cos of FORTH, ran much faster than
: the ZX81, which used BASIC. Membrane keypad, 16k add-on RAM pack.
: Unfortunately, no-one wrote commercial software for it, so it died a
: death like soooo many others.
Does no-one include Jupiter Cantab? I've got a few commerical games tapes
for the Ace (mostly arcade type games), along with a spreadsheet (nice -
you can use _any_ forth words in a cell), assembler (I think), character
set defining program, etc.
But you're right. It was never strongly supported with commericial
software, alas.
-tony
Robert Billing
Harold Rabbie wrote:
> While we're totally off the subject of computer folklore and into British
> plumbing, I've always wondered why the building code in the UK requires an
> open COLD water tank in every residence. This tank supplies all the taps
You will find some of the answers in a book by Wallace Reyburn, with
the unbelievable title of "Flushed with pride, the true-life story of
Thomas Crapper."
Now, normally a posting like that would *have* to be a troll, but if
you don't believe me look up ISBN 0 7088 1841 2.
While this book is mainly concerned with the life of Crapper, the
"Barnes Wallis of the lavatory world", it sheds interesting sidelights
on plumbing in general. In particular there are a few notes about the
problems of direct connection, these are mainly that faults are more
destructive and waste more water, and that there is a risk that if, due
to a fault, you get a partial vacuum in the main (this can happen), some
rather unpleasant things can get sucked back in.
Tony Duell
Sam. (s...@greenaum.demon.co.ARSE!ARSE!ARSE!uk) wrote:
: >Also, anyone ever own a Sinclair QL? Hopeless attempt at a business
: >machine.
: If he'd have put a decent keyboard on it (it's worth looking it up on
My QL came as the bottom half (no keyboard) only from a radio rally. I
got a spare keyboard (off some kind of word processor, I think), wired
the switches into the appropriate matrix and built the first QL that
you could actually type on!
: the web and seeing what he expected business users [at that time
: probably secretaries] to type on). And aimed it at home users, like
: the Amstrad PCW. And, just perhaps, given it a proper freaking disk
: drive, or the support for one. It's interesting in being based around
And serial ports that worked and actually made an attempt to meet the RS232
standard, and an expansion bus that didn't require rediculous timings, and
enough RAM, and...
In other words it was a typical Sinclair machine. Cheap, and it shows. Had
it sold for \pounds 600.00, with a disk controller and a real UART, it
might have done rather better.
: the Motorola 68008, probably the world's only 8/32 bit computer.
-tony
John Bayko
In article <898094313.15143.0...@news.demon.co.uk>,>Harold Rabbie <hzra...@worldnet.REMOVE.THIS.att.net> wrote:
[...]
>>While we're totally off the subject of computer folklore and into British
>>plumbing, I've always wondered why the building code in the UK requires an
>
>I think it's odd, too, and I'm British (Scottish, actually; [...]
>The reason I've most often heard is that the mains water
>pressure can be too high for most domestic piping, but I've never believed
>it.
Roman towns used to have a public fountain because the pressure of
the water flowing down from the aquaductswould burst the lead pipes if
it wasn't released somehow. From the fountain it would be piped
elsewhere in the village where rich people could afford it.
--
John Bayko (Tau).
ba...@cs.uregina.ca
http://www.cs.uregina.ca/~bayko
S. T.
Sam. (s...@greenaum.demon.co.ARSE!ARSE!ARSE!uk) wrote on Wed, 17 Jun 1998 21:12:50 GMT:
> On Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:04:45 GMT, "B.A.L.T.Y.N." <wb6...@bris.ac.uk>
> wrote:
> >Does anyone remember the SAM Coupe? British machine that died a death;
> >at the time it was the most advanced 8-bit ever; separate music and
> >video chips, very hi-res graphics,
>
> 4 graphics modes, smart sound chip (though I think it may just be a
> Yamaha one), Z80 at 6MHz instead of 3.5. AFAIK it still is the most
> powerful 8-bit in the world. Do I feel lucky for owning one.
I remember some home 'puter called IIRC Enterprise, maybe around '84.
A dark gray case, green keys and a control stick (I won't call it a
joystick, because it didn't look very joyful:). I remember thinking
that it had quite good graphics for the time (something like 19k
colors?). Any specifics? Or could I mean SAM?
B.A.L.T.Y.N.
On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, Sam. wrote:
> On 18 Jun 98 22:04:12 +0300, "S. T." <n...@spam.he.re> wrote:
>
> >I remember some home 'puter called IIRC Enterprise, maybe around '84.
> >A dark gray case, green keys and a control stick (I won't call it a
> >joystick, because it didn't look very joyful:). I remember thinking
> >that it had quite good graphics for the time (something like 19k
> >colors?). Any specifics? Or could I mean SAM?
>
> The Elan Enterprise, a legend in itself. There's a whole story and a
> half to it, the chaps on comp.sys.sinclair know it better than I do,
> and you can probably find it on the web.
>
Colour scheme sounds like the UK machine Amstrad CPC 464. 64k RAM, Z80
processor, 27 colours, built-in tape drive (to right of keyboard).
Green control keys, black letters and bright blue enter keys, one on the
keyboard, one on the numeric pad. Had to have special monitor for its
power supply. Discovered that the power supply degraded with time;
implication was that everything recorded on tape was too slow. When it
finally packed up and was replaced, the tape ran too fast for the old
data.
The CPC6128 had double the RAM and a built in disk drive. For a short
time there was a 664, 64k but with a disk drive. The disk drives on the
CPC were the utterly obscure 3" disks, made by no-one, used by no-one.
Ah, to be fiercely individualistic in those halcyon 80s days.
Despite this, the CPC had one of the best BASICs around (great and easy
to use graphics and sound function), good selection of software, and, to
borrow from the keyboards thread, a great keyboard. (With the backslash,
\, next to the slash, making the right shift key a little tricky to use,
hence my habit, to this day, of only using the left shift.
Perhaps Enterprise was its US trademark?
William
lis...@zetnet.co.uk
On 1998-06-17 JK...@softwright.co.uk said:
:It doesn't -- may have done so in the past, but there's certainly
:no tank in my flat or in the flat I rented previously. Very common
:in houses, though.
Especially old houses. This house, built around 1900, does; my parents'
house, built nearer 1910, doesn't. Of course, it depends on when the
plumbing was last redone, but all modern houses have direct mains feeds.
In fact, having a tank on business premises (or in universities) would
nowadays result in little "Not Drinking Water" stickers appearing above
all the taps fed from them - because of the algae.
:We discovered the advantages of having one recently when the water
:in our road was turned off for 18 hours for emergency mains
:repairs: having several hundred gallons in reserve would have
:avoided a lot of mucking about with buckets.
"Several hundred gallons" it ain't. Maybe a couple, if you're lucky -
you can usually drain it in a few minutes.
:> This tank supplies all the taps but the kitchen sink, IIRC.
:Yep: the kitchen tap is supposed to be "fresh" water.
So it can be safely used for cooking.
:> It means that you can't get decent pressure in
:> a shower head, and may even encourage the growth of mouldy uglies
:> in the tank that then get onto your toothbrush.
:Well, the tank's up in the loft in the dark which discourages algae
:and mould growth; and it's sensible to keep a lid on it. But still,
:hmm, yes... and I'm not even going to try to defend British showers.
It wouldn't be defending the indefensible, it would be defending the
non-existent. I have no water pressure upstairs, and between that and
the bath having the most stupidly designed taps in history, a shower is
just completely out of the question. I believe a lot of houses are still
built without showers.
What's puzzling me at the moment is that I have a hot water tank as
well, which is heated by both electricity and gas. It has a little
(ancient, unsafe) switch that you can flick if you don't want to turn
the gas on, which eats electricity, but it also gets heated when the
central heating (gas) is on. WHY????
:ObAFU: erm, uh, British oddities: anyone remember the Jupiter ACE?
:Little white ZX81-lookalike which ran a built-in FORTH. Did any
:ever escape the country? Come to that, did many ever escape the
:factory?
I never used one, but I remember it - I always wanted one to play with.
There's an emulator somewhere (if you mail me, I'll have found the URL
by then). The manufacturer didn't take very long to go bust. It came
with 3k of memory, split 3 ways - 1k character generator, 1k screen
memory, 1k Forth dictionary. The Forth was an interesting variant of FIG
Forth - no screens, but inbuilt decompilation (that worked!). Internally
it was very similar to the ZX machines, which is hardly surprising
considering that it was designed by some ex-Sinclair employees who
preferred Forth to Sinclair BASIC.
--
Communa (we'll have your job, david) we remember...
lis...@zetnet.co.uk
B.A.L.T.Y.N. (what does it stand for, then?) wrote:
:Also, anyone ever own a Sinclair QL? Hopeless attempt at a business
:machine.
I've still got mine, and am *still* waiting for a work colleague to give
me his collection of QL bits and pieces (including a BCPL compiler). It
may have been a hopeless attempt, but it was a hell of a lot cheaper
than the alternatives at the time, and the technology was pretty good
(even if the implementation was bodged). Also, SuperBASIC is up there
with BBC BASIC as one of the best of all time.
--
Communa (Ian, if you're out there - ) we remember...
Josh Hesse
Peter Seebach (se...@plethora.net) wrote:
: In article <Pine.GSO.3.95q.98061...@nova.kettering.edu>,
: <lee...@kettering.edu> wrote:
: >SE
:
: Hmm. Did all of them have this key, or was this some kind of interchangable
: part nightmare?
:
As far as I know, all Mac keyboards have this key whether the computer uses
it or not. My memory is a bit fuzzy, but I belive it's the odd shaped key
at the top of the keyboard with the sideways triangle <| on it. As far
as I can tell, on modern macs, it's function is similar to an a appendix.
(Haven't seen one used in 7 or so years (the key)).
-Josh
--
Do not send mail to this account. Really.
"Talk about silly conspiracy theories..." -Wayne Schlitt in unl.general
This post (C)1998, Josh Hesse. Quoted material is (C) of the person quoted.
|ess|erb|unl|u| (Oo) MYTHOS How's my posting? 1-800-DEV-NULL
email: jh|e@h|ie.|.ed| /||\ NEW AEON .Sigfile freshness date: 4/2/98
Free Karate practices for UNL students & staff--- Just ask me.
lis...@zetnet.co.uk
On 1998-06-17 s...@greenaum.demon.co.ARSE!ARSE!ARSE!uk said:
:If he'd have put a decent keyboard on it (it's worth looking it up
:on the web and seeing what he expected business users [at that time
:probably secretaries] to type on). And aimed it at home users, like
:the Amstrad PCW.
He did. And as regards the keyboard, it is still the nicest I have ever
had the privilege to use, bar none. (Not even the genuine IBM keyboard I
used for a while was as nice.) I guess it's just hopw it takes you, but
I have fond memories of that keyboard.
:And, just perhaps, given it a proper freaking disk
:drive, or the support for one.
I completely agree! Now using microdrives *was* stupid, regardless of
the cost of disk drives in those days.
--
Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling
lis...@zetnet.co.uk
On 1998-06-18 n...@spam.he.re said:
:I remember some home 'puter called IIRC Enterprise, maybe around
:'84. A dark gray case, green keys and a control stick (I won't call
:it a joystick, because it didn't look very joyful:). I remember
:thinking that it had quite good graphics for the time (something
:like 19k colors?). Any specifics? Or could I mean SAM?
Oh, yes. It was supposed to be the computer to end all computers. It
ended up being called the Enterprise, after going through names like
Elan, Flan, etc.etc. It had a maximum graphics resolution of 672x512, in
myriad colours (you traded colours for pixels), and a BASIC that came in
a ROM pack and was pretty wonderful, outBBCing BBC. (Unfortunately, it
was also woefully slow, which BBC BASIC wasn't.) It also came with a
fairly primitive word processor and (??) a machine code monitor. My next
door neighbour actually knows someone who has one, and did at one point
say something about bringing it up to show it off.
The company went bust very very quickly. It was so late that by the time
it came out, the market had all but fallen out of the bottom (umm) in
the 8-bit world. (Or something...) It couldn't really compete with the
ST and Amiga, so it died.
Tony Duell
Sam. (s...@greenaum.demon.co.ARSE!ARSE!ARSE!uk) wrote:
: On Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:36:53 GMT, "B.A.L.T.Y.N." <wb6...@bris.ac.uk>
: wrote:
: >Perhaps Enterprise was its US trademark?
: No, the Elan / Flan / Samurai Enterprise was different. It was going
: to be an 8-bit supercomputer, with 256 colours and a screen res of
It was no supercomputer. A nice Z80A based micro, maybe. The spec (AFAIK)
was inferior to another forgotten machine - the Tiger. That had a Z80 and
a 6809 in it, 64K RAM on the Z80, 8K on the 6809, RS232, Centronics and
network ports as standard, a built-in Prestel modem, an NEC 7220 graphics
chip with 32K video RAM, etc, etc, etc.
: 672x256, and up to 3 meg of memory, this was in 1986.
: http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~alexios/MACHINE-ROOM/Enterprise,Computers_E...@128.html
: It had all sorts of troubles, and ultimately about two dozen were
: made, and nobody bought them, and now they're one of the holy grails
: of computer collecting.
I've got a (working) logic board from an Enterprise here. Alas I don't
have the Basic cartridge - only the built-in word processor, so I've
never used it for anything much.
I've also got the schematics for it somewhere.
-tony
Robert Billing
Sam. wrote:
> tank, which is where the electric heater is. The gas heats the central
> heating, but the electric doesn't, so I suppose just using the
> electric heater is more efficient, especially if your electricity is
> cheap enough (like, with different night-time rates).
There are several reasons for the electric heater. The main one is that
if you want to top up the hot water quickly, because an entire rugger
team wants baths in a hurry, you can. It also means you still have hot
water even if you want to stop the gas boiler altogether in a heat wave.
S. T.
B.A.L.T.Y.N. (wb6...@bris.ac.uk) wrote on Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:36:53 GMT:
Shouldn't that be GMT+1? Isn't DST in the Summer?
> On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, Sam. wrote:
>
> > On 18 Jun 98 22:04:12 +0300, "S. T." <n...@spam.he.re> wrote:
> >
> > >I remember some home 'puter called IIRC Enterprise, maybe around '84.
> > >A dark gray case, green keys and a control stick (I won't call it a
> > >joystick, because it didn't look very joyful:). I remember thinking
> > >that it had quite good graphics for the time (something like 19k
> > >colors?). Any specifics? Or could I mean SAM?
> >
> > The Elan Enterprise, a legend in itself. There's a whole story and a
> > half to it, the chaps on comp.sys.sinclair know it better than I do,
> > and you can probably find it on the web.
It seems my feed is a bit patchy, I get old posts duplicated, and
missed the original followup. Oh well, that's what you get with a
public server.
> Colour scheme sounds like the UK machine Amstrad CPC 464. 64k RAM, Z80
> processor, 27 colours, built-in tape drive (to right of keyboard).
The Enterprise I'm talking about is if I remeber anything at all a few
years older than Amstrad CPCs. I may remember the colour scheme
incorrectly, but I'm almost certain it had green keys *only*. I might
have a picture somewhere, but I'm not very much inclined to go
digging.
Yes, I remember CPCs quite well. I remember thinking that the design
was "non-optimal". Sharp corners, too wide, too short leads between
the monitor and the computer.
And the amount if colours is too small. 27 isn't that much compared to
the C-64's 16 I had around then.
BTW, what was that text printed on top of the disk drives?
> Green control keys, black letters and bright blue enter keys, one on the
IIRC Enterprise had white letters on green keycaps. And the Amstrads
didn't have a joystick as standard. Didn't the CPCs have some strange
amount of function keys? 9 in 3x3 block?
> keyboard, one on the numeric pad. Had to have special monitor for its
> power supply. Discovered that the power supply degraded with time;
> implication was that everything recorded on tape was too slow. When it
> finally packed up and was replaced, the tape ran too fast for the old
> data.
So you add a potentiometer or something to the "red wire". ;) (No idea
if it would work, but it might.)
> The CPC6128 had double the RAM and a built in disk drive. For a short
> time there was a 664, 64k but with a disk drive. The disk drives on the
> CPC were the utterly obscure 3" disks, made by no-one, used by no-one.
I remember those. I also seem to recall that some Sharps or something
used 2.8" disks. The 3" disks were used probably only by Amstrad (Alan
M Sugar Trading?), but not only in the CPCs. There was a
word-proscessing system (PCW8256?) that had two(!) of them strange
drives.
> Perhaps Enterprise was its US trademark?
How should I know? I read an article about the E in a Finnish
(sort of) computer mag. :)
Tony Duell
S. T. (defin...@nospam.fi) wrote:
: B.A.L.T.Y.N. (wb6...@bris.ac.uk) wrote on Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:36:53 GMT:
: > The CPC6128 had double the RAM and a built in disk drive. For a short
: > time there was a 664, 64k but with a disk drive. The disk drives on the
: > CPC were the utterly obscure 3" disks, made by no-one, used by no-one.
: I remember those. I also seem to recall that some Sharps or something
: used 2.8" disks. The 3" disks were used probably only by Amstrad (Alan
The 3" disk was actually a standard at one time, and certainly wasn't an
Amstrad invention.
Another machine to use them as standard was the Tatung Einstein - a Z80A
based machine that was obviously designed to compete with the BBC micro,
but wasn't as good IMHO. The Einstein had a built-in 3" drive with a
space for a second one, and a reasonable number of I/O ports (serial,
parallel, user port, 4-channel ADC, etc) as standard. Mine still runs.
I've also seen a 3" drive marketed for the BBC micro.
At one time you could get the 3" drives very cheaply in the UK - for
\pounds 40.00 each when all other drives were about \pounds 200.00. I
bought one as a second drive for a Tandy CoCo system. It gave me more
storage, and the fact that the disks were non-standard didn't bother me.
: M Sugar Trading?), but not only in the CPCs. There was a
: word-proscessing system (PCW8256?) that had two(!) of them strange
: drives.
The 8256 had a single drive, the 8512 had a pair of drives (and twice as
much RAM). No I never owned one, but I have the service manuals to most
of the PCW machines.
IIRC the drives in the 8512 were a single-sided 40 track and a double
sided 80 track. Odd!
-tony
Richard...@my-dejanews.com
> > Perhaps Enterprise was its US trademark?
>
I remember the old bugger, one of my friends had one. How we did laugh. It was
about 2 months before he realised he couldn't get alny s/w for it. The wiggle
stick on the (bottom right I think) sort of buldged out of the case. At one
point the prototype name was 'the flan', but this was around 15 years ago I
think, shit, now that makes me feel _really_ old.
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S. T.
Tony Duell (a...@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) wrote on 20 Jun 1998 19:42:52 +0100:
> Sam. (s...@greenaum.demon.co.ARSE!ARSE!ARSE!uk) wrote:
> : On Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:36:53 GMT, "B.A.L.T.Y.N." <wb6...@bris.ac.uk>
> : wrote:
>
> : >Perhaps Enterprise was its US trademark?
>
> : No, the Elan / Flan / Samurai Enterprise was different. It was going
> : to be an 8-bit supercomputer, with 256 colours and a screen res of
>
> It was no supercomputer. A nice Z80A based micro, maybe. The spec (AFAIK)
> was inferior to another forgotten machine - the Tiger. That had a Z80 and
> a 6809 in it, 64K RAM on the Z80, 8K on the 6809, RS232, Centronics and
> network ports as standard, a built-in Prestel modem, an NEC 7220 graphics
> chip with 32K video RAM, etc, etc, etc.
> : 672x256, and up to 3 meg of memory, this was in 1986.
I'd bet it was before that, because in '86 that was nothing special.
'84 or so would be more believable. After all, the Amiga 1000 was out
in '84. (A500 in '87?) No idea what the maximum amount of RAM would
be, with all the expansions that weren't supposed to be made, but it
was capable of 4096 colours on screen at once.
Charlie Gibbs
In article <359BE8F1.MD-0....@nospam.fi> defin...@nospam.fi
(S. T.) writes:
>Tony Duell (a...@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) wrote on 20 Jun 1998 19:42:52
>+0100:
<snip>
>> : 672x256, and up to 3 meg of memory, this was in 1986.
>
>I'd bet it was before that, because in '86 that was nothing special.
>'84 or so would be more believable. After all, the Amiga 1000 was out
>in '84. (A500 in '87?) No idea what the maximum amount of RAM would
>be, with all the expansions that weren't supposed to be made, but it
>was capable of 4096 colours on screen at once.
The A1000 came out in late '85 - I went to the Commodore demo
here in Vancouver in November. I got my A1000 in March '86.
You could hang up to 8MB on the side expansion slot (in addition
to the 512KB internally), but I don't know of anyone who could
afford that. Lots of us had 2MB expansion boards, though.
The only limiting factor was the 68000's 24-bit addressing -
the OS has been 32-bit clean from the beginning, and when the
68020 came along there was nothing stopping anyone from dropping
in 100MB or more of RAM. The 68060 accelerator currently in my
wife's machine has a 32MB SIMM, with room for three more.
--
cgi...@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs)
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