A Question (or many)
Bob Random Zany
->personally i'd rather not have to wade through a bunch of
->mud-weenie-postings in order to find some articles about pern. (i'm
->sorry, but pern mud derivatives are not pern.)
Congratulations. You have no doubt started the first heated war on
a.f.p., starting about the time someone rebutts saying that 'twas PernMUSH
people who decided to create the newsgroup.
Fortunately, that won't be me. Congratulations, anyway, though.
-Master SeaCrafter Kale
--
-----------------------Comedy! Sudden, violent comedy!----------------------
|Russ "Random" Smith...Computer Scientist, SunOS victim, and supposed author|
|Please send all love letters and job offers to ru...@hardy.math.okstate.edu.|
>>>> yow.el sez: "How's the wife? Is she at home enjoying capitalism?" <<<<
Christi
A) Why did Ruth never rise to mate?
ruth does not rise to mate because of the 'mutation' or the fact that
he is a runt.
B) What caused the mutation that gave rise to Ruth?
what causes down's syndrome? what causes any mutation?
it is implied that ruth may not have been the first of his kind. the
only difference is no one bothered trying to save the others.
C) How long is a dragonlength?
i'm sure there is a source on this somewhere... if i recall the first
dragons were about the size of a human or a bit larger, and the
current dragons are about 3 times the size or so... i'd figure about
30 feet or so, but i'm sure i've seen numbers quoted somewhere...
D) Is it possible to explore or gain greater knowledge of _between_?
for you? i doubt it.
from what i've read i'd say no. the problem is both the cold and the
lack of oxygen (or so i've gathered from all the weyrs of pern)
E) Can I post Pern mystique-based stories of my own creation here?
sounds good to me.
F) What is PernMUSH? Is it a game? How can I play it? Should we start
a FAQ (yeah, based on 4 posts)?
go to rec.games.mud or alt.mud. there is plenty of information there
on how to play muds, and i believe there is an faq posted there.
personally i'd rather not have to wade through a bunch of
mud-weenie-postings in order to find some articles about pern. (i'm
sorry, but pern mud derivatives are not pern.)
c.
--
Myron A. Calhoun
> C) How long is a dragonlength?
>i'm sure there is a source on this somewhere... if i recall the first
>dragons were about the size of a human or a bit larger, and the
>current dragons are about 3 times the size or so... i'd figure about
>30 feet or so, but i'm sure i've seen numbers quoted somewhere...
One of the auxiliary books says a dragon length is now about the
same size as one of the BIG airplanes; say a 747 or so. This
book (don't remember which one, and I'm not at home to look it up)
even includes a picture of a dragon overlaid on such a plane.
--Myron.
--
# We preserve our freedoms using three boxes: ballot, jury, and cartridge.
# Myron A. Calhoun, PhD EE; Associate Professor (913) 539-4448 home
# INTERNET: m...@cis.ksu.edu (129.130.10.5) 532-6350 work, 532-7353 fax
# UUCP: ...rutgers!ksuvax1!depot!mac W0PBV @ K0VAY.KS.USA.NA
Ann Laurel Kopchik
>same size as one of the BIG airplanes; say a 747 or so. This
>book (don't remember which one, and I'm not at home to look it up)
>even includes a picture of a dragon overlaid on such a plane.
>--Myron.
I believe that was Ramoth overlaid on a 747... remember that Ramoth is a
BIG queen....
Lydia Leong
>In article <20...@chaph.usc.edu> pech...@sal-sun86.usc.edu (Jim Nightshade) writes:
>
> C) How long is a dragonlength?
>
>
> D) Is it possible to explore or gain greater knowledge of _between_?
Sure, Between is a dark, floating room with a lot of nifty programming and...
*whap* I've been playing PernMUSH too much. ;)
> F) What is PernMUSH? Is it a game? How can I play it? Should we start
> a FAQ (yeah, based on 4 posts)?
>
>go to rec.games.mud or alt.mud. there is plenty of information there
>on how to play muds, and i believe there is an faq posted there.
>
>personally i'd rather not have to wade through a bunch of
>mud-weenie-postings in order to find some articles about pern. (i'm
>sorry, but pern mud derivatives are not pern.)
One - this newsgroup was created by a PernMUSH wizard. Since it's an alt group,
it has no charter, but I'm sure that PernMUSH was intended to be a
part of the discussion.
Two - It looks like there are three types of readers here: the first doesn't
know anything about PernMUSH and doesn't want to have anything to do
with it. The second group would like to learn about the MUSH. The third
group plays regularly (and seem to be dominating the posting, right now).
Three - "mud-weenie"? Have you ever played a MUD?
More specifically, have you ever played PernMUSH? How can you judge
it without ever having seen it? (assuming that you haven't played).
Sure, PernMUSH isn't Pern - but we try hard to make it as close to
the "Real Thing" as we can.
/&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&\
&& & &&
&& RIDE WITH THE BEST! & Join a craft: Bakers, Fishers, &&
&& BECOME A CANDIDATE AT BENDEN WEYR & Harpers, Healers, Herders, &&
&& & Miners, Smiths, StarSmiths, &&
&& (Yes, this is a sales pitch. Sue me) & Vintners, Weavers, Woodsmiths. &&
&& & &&
\&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&/
Amberyl, Jeniath's rider, Benden Weyr.
At PernMUSH, and proud of it! milo.mit.edu 4201 [ 18.70.0.216 4201 ]
Also at SouCon MUSH dewey.cc.utexas.edu 4201
--
/~\______________________________________________________________________/~\
|n| Lydia Leong | If there is anyone here that I have not |n|
|~| l...@eniac.seas.upenn.edu _| offended, I deeply apologize. -- Brahms |~|
|_|_________________________|#|__________________________________________|_|
Jean Marie Diaz
Christi> personally i'd rather not have to wade through a bunch of
Christi> mud-weenie-postings in order to find some articles about pern. (i'm
Christi> sorry, but pern mud derivatives are not pern.)
Hate to disappoint you, but this group was created by "mud-weenies"
specifically to provide a place for discussion of Pern and things
Pernish, which includes muds dedicated to same. Read what you want,
write what you want, play what you want, and let others do likewise.
AMBAR
Christi
One - this newsgroup was created by a PernMUSH wizard. Since it's an alt group,
it has no charter, but I'm sure that PernMUSH was intended to be a
part of the discussion.
so rename the group something more appropriate. discussion of how to
mud is definately not related to pern, even if pernmushes are. i
don't care if you want to post up coming events on your favorite
little pern*. i do care when 80% of the articles in a book fan group
are about a game which is only marginally related. i'm fairly certain
any other non-mud group would get damn annoyed if you came in and took
over. try going over to soc.couples and talk about tinyrelationships
(make sure you let them know that it's not real), and see what happens
(oh, make sure you FLOOD the newsgroup).
Two - It looks like there are three types of readers here: the
first doesn't know anything about PernMUSH and doesn't want
to have anything to do with it. The second group would like
to learn about the MUSH. The third group plays regularly (and
seem to be dominating the posting, right now).
no. there are more than three types of readers. honest. especially
the three types you list. you make the faulty assumption that anyone
who muds and is interested in pern falls into the third group (and by
implication wants to read all this stuff about pernmush).
if you MUST break it down into three groups break it as such:
a) those who don't want to hear about pernmush
b) those who don't mud, but would be interested in pernmush
c) those who are addicted to a silly game and let it control their
lives so that all they can talk about is pernmush
Three - "mud-weenie"?
the exact term was "mud-weenie-posts". do you wish it defined?
Have you ever played a MUD?
yes. quite a number. i've also been a wizard on a few, and even run
one out of my account (more or less). although i really don't see how
this has anything to do with pern.
More specifically, have you ever played PernMUSH?
yes. briefly. if you'll excuse me for this... i have a REAL LIFE! i
have a job. i take a class. i don't have time to get addicted to
any mud. especially not one that will require me to perform 10-20
hours a week of labor in order to role-play the type of character i
want.
How can you judge
it without ever having seen it? (assuming that you haven't played).
assume... ass... u... me...
lesse... this december will mark the end of my second year mudding...
i've seen relationships get hurt by mudding... i've seen people screw
up their academic careers because of mudding... i've seen people who
became so engrossed in muds that it became their whole life. thank
you, but i think i've seen enough of muds in order to make a few
judgements on them.
i think you should get one thing straight. i have nothing against
muds. i do have something against people letting muds run their
lives. when i see a new newsgroup which appears to be about a set of
books being taken over by muds, then i think its fair to say that
these people are engrossed.
Sure, PernMUSH isn't Pern - but we try hard to make it as close to
the "Real Thing" as we can.
heh. as close to the real thing, huh?
now, i could have sworn i heard someone say something about pernmush
taking place just before the 10th pass (whoops).
how do you explain how females are allowed to impress gold, and green
dragons, and rarely blues and browns? to the best of my knowledge
there has only been one female in the books that has impressed other
than a gold.
how many weyrs does southern have by 10th pass?
c.
--
Ken Bartlett
c., dear, if you're so concerned about a lack of non-Pern, only-PernMUSH
discussions here, why not start one? All I've ever seen you do is try
to start a flame war with us. And you tell _us_ to get lives?
--Ken
Christi
i thought perhaps i would finish the current book before starting a
discussion about it. (i already have a couple of subjects in mind for
discussion, including a trivia quiz)
although the more i read this group the more it seems that any
non-pernmush discussion would be overwhelmed by all the mud related
questions.
i think someone oughta post a call for discussion for
rec.games.mud.pern. after all, that's what this is, except under a
different name.
c.
--
Ken Bartlett
>morp...@cco.caltech.edu (Ken Bartlett) writes:
>although the more i read this group the more it seems that any
>non-pernmush discussion would be overwhelmed by all the mud related
>questions.
>i think someone oughta post a call for discussion for
>rec.games.mud.pern. after all, that's what this is, except under a
>different name.
>c.
So cope? Or learn to use kill files?
With the newsreaders that are out there, it's very easy to avoid subjects
that you'd rather not read...especially since most of us PernMUSHers are
sensible enough to put 'PernMUSH' in the titles. There's really no excuse
for someone to be here bitching about one branch of Pern fandom's postings
when (1) it's a legitimate use of the newsgroup, and (2) anyone with half
a brain could avoid any MUSH-related question very easily.
Remember, this isn't rec.arts.sf-lovers.pern, either. It's alt._fan_.pern.
It just so happens that most of the fans of Pern with net access are inter-
ested in MUSH. So cope. Get a kill file. Take a valium. Or unsubscribe,
if the newsgroup's as horrid as you claim. You're not doing yourself a
favor, nor us, by posting childing flames against PernMUSH.
--Ken
Ken Bartlett
Eek, in my last post, I edited out what I'd said, but missed the line about
>Ken Bartlett wrote. So the attrib's are sorta wrong; for clarity, c. wrote
the quoted material, not me. :)
--Ken
Lydia Leong
>
> One - this newsgroup was created by a PernMUSH wizard. Since it's an alt
to be part of the discussion.
>
>so rename the group something more appropriate. discussion of how to
>mud is definately not related to pern, even if pernmushes are. i
>don't care if you want to post up coming events on your favorite
>little pern*. i do care when 80% of the articles in a book fan group
>are about a game which is only marginally related.
This is a _Pern_ fan group, not a book fan group.
PernMUSH is just as relevant as, for example, discussion of ForTen
(are there any ForTen members out there? Say something!)
There is no way of renaming a group. The only way to do so is to remove the
group and then add it under a new name. Besides, I thought you enjoyed posting
to alt.fan.pern. If you don't want to read about PernMUSH, then put it in
your kill file. Real tough, that.
>i'm fairly certain
>any other non-mud group would get damn annoyed if you came in and took
>over. try going over to soc.couples and talk about tinyrelationships
>(make sure you let them know that it's not real), and see what happens
>(oh, make sure you FLOOD the newsgroup).
"Taking over" implies that something else existed before. Listen up:
this group was originally going to be created as alt.fan.pernmush. It was
thought that other people might enjoy having a place to discuss Pern, so
it was decided to make the group a bit more general.
I also don't see any other posts in support of yours. Certainly it doesn't
look like the rest of this newsgroup is annoyed (they're annoyed with you,
yes, but not with the PernMUSH posts).
>if you MUST break it down into three groups break it as such:
>
>c) those who are addicted to a silly game and let it control their
>lives so that all they can talk about is pernmush
That statement doesn't even deserve a reply.
> More specifically, have you ever played PernMUSH?
>
>yes. briefly. if you'll excuse me for this... i have a REAL LIFE! i
>have a job. i take a class. i don't have time to get addicted to
>any mud. especially not one that will require me to perform 10-20
>hours a week of labor in order to role-play the type of character i
>want.
Excuse me - but that's a lot of bull. Who the heck requires you to perform
10-20 hours a week of labor??? Besides the fact that the use of the word
"labor" is a little strange in a game context, I can't think of _anything_
on Pern where you would be required to do something in order to be able
to role-play (well, if you want to be a Craftmaster or Lord Holder, obviously
you'd have to be willing to perform the administrative responsibilities that
come with that role).
> Sure, PernMUSH isn't Pern - but we try hard to make it as close to
> the "Real Thing" as we can.
>
>heh. as close to the real thing, huh?
>
>now, i could have sworn i heard someone say something about pernmush
>taking place just before the 10th pass (whoops).
Obviously, none of us could have known that McCaffrey would essentially
choose to destroy the world she so carefully created in earlier books.
The same applies to ForTen - that stands for Fort Weyr, Tenth Pass. They're
sort of in trouble with _AtWoP_, too.
ForTen members, if any of you are out there, could you please answer one
question? What's the official ForTen policy on _AtWoP_? Is it being ignored,
or what?
>how do you explain how females are allowed to impress gold, and green
>dragons, and rarely blues and browns? to the best of my knowledge
>there has only been one female in the books that has impressed other
>than a gold.
The various Pern MUSHes (including TinyTIM/Telgar, etc) allow females to
Impress greens because of the precedent set by Mirrim/Path. It seems
reasonable for females to Impress greens, and it's certainly expedient
in the context of the MUSH (where there are _many_ more female Candidates
than gold eggs can accomodate).
>how many weyrs does southern have by 10th pass?
The Southern Continent has at least three weyrs by the 10th Pass.
In reply to another posting of c.'s, regarding the policy of SouCon MUSH
on _AtWoP_:
You asked if _Renegades_ was going to be ignored as well.
_Renegades_ is not nearly as "serious" a problem as _AtWoP_, but yes,
the part about AIVAS in _Renegades_ is being ignored.
On the MUSHes of Pern and SouCon, there _is_ some evidence that technology
has developed to some extent: paper is in common use, farviewers and other
complicated lenscraft items can easily be made, the stars have been charted
to some extent, complex mathematics (calculus) has been rediscovered by the
StarCraft, batteries are in use (a crude form of these exist in _Dragonquest_),
etc. It's reasonable that there could have been more drastic developments,
but for the sake of preserving the role-playing environment, the MUSHes
assume that technology has not leaped ahead.
I don't think this policy is too terribly different from that of existing
Pern fan clubs.
>>> Amberyl, Jeniath's rider, Benden Weyr, PernMUSH. milo.mit.edu 4201
Foxen
>
>I believe that was Ramoth overlaid on a 747... remember that Ramoth is a
>BIG queen....
>
Actually, The Dragonlover's Guide to Pern had a silloette of Ramoth
overlaid on the silloette of a DC-10. Not as large a plane. *grin*
Also, Ramoth is the LARGEST queen dragon ever recorded in Pern history.
- Tyriana (Former Weyrwoman, Andiyar Weyr,
on the deceased TinyMUD Classic)
--
___ __ ___ _ . _^^ ____ fo...@netcom.com
\ / | | \ | | | -> '-" \______/___/ Another Fine Furry Fan
`v' |-- |--< |--- `v' ' ,| _____ | "Support the Church of the
| |___ | \ | o //|| ||| Holy Furr of Bastis!"
Foxen
>
>Actually, The Dragonlover's Guide to Pern had a silloette of Ramoth
>overlaid on the silloette of a DC-10. Not as large a plane. *grin*
>Also, Ramoth is the LARGEST queen dragon ever recorded in Pern history.
>
WHOOPS! I just looked again in the book, and it actually shows Ramoth
compared to an L1011 jet, and not a DC-10. (Ramoth is smaller than the
jet) She IS, however, the largest queen dragon ever.
It also mentions the following:
"What is usually thought of as a dragonlength as a measure of distance is
equal to the average length of teh most common dragons, the greens, who
number the same as all the blues, browns, and bronzes put together.
Modern green dragons grow to between 20 to 25 meters in length. Blues
are the next largest at 25 to 30, browns range from 30 to 35 meters,
bronzes from 35 to 38, and golds from 38 to 42 as a rule, though Ramoth
was closer to 45 meters long (or about the size of a jet plane)."
Christi
chri...@mentor.cc.purdue.edu writes:
>although the more i read this group the more it seems that any
>non-pernmush discussion would be overwhelmed by all the mud related
>questions.
>i think someone oughta post a call for discussion for
>rec.games.mud.pern. after all, that's what this is, except under a
>different name.
So cope? Or learn to use kill files?
the point is i shouldn't have to use a kill file to kill files that
shouldn't be in the newgroup in the first place. pern != mud.
if the pernmush post could be kept to the type revolving around pern,
then i don't believe there would be a problem. i think it would be a
reasonable discussion to discuss how pernmush has corrupted
mccaffery's creation. i do not think it's reasonable to discuss how
to mud. there is already an FAQ in rec.games.mud for that purpose, as
well as address lists for plenty of muds.
With the newsreaders that are out there, it's very easy to avoid subjects
that you'd rather not read...especially since most of us PernMUSHers are
sensible enough to put 'PernMUSH' in the titles.
i know how to use a newsreader to kill subjects. i do not want to
kill pernmush entirely because i believe pern related postings (that
do not have to do with how to mud or how to get a character on
pernmush or your favorite mud FAQ question) generated from pernmush
may have some value.
i disagree with your last part however. i saw at least one post that
was 1598 lines long that was on pernmush that did not have pernmush in
the subject line. it appears to be the rules that pernmush runs by,
but i'm not interested in reading a file that long to find out.
(oops... i just went to check. i should correct myself. this was NOT
an article relating to pern in any way other than being instructions
on how to play mush. it was not even related to pernmush, let alone
pern) (also note that besides this article not being labeled so one
could tell it was a mud related article as opposed to a pern article,
it was also exceedingly long, and did not carry a warning to that
effect. this is considered by most to be in bad taste)
There's really no excuse
for someone to be here bitching about one branch of Pern fandom's postings
when (1) it's a legitimate use of the newsgroup, and (2) anyone with half
a brain could avoid any MUSH-related question very easily.
1) if it were pern related articles, and not mud related articles,
then yes. "how do i get tinyfugue?" does not to me seem to have
ANYTHING to do with pern. or has someone created a pernese tinyfugue
:-)
2) if one wishes to get rid of mud related questions as opposed to
pernmush related questions one would have to read the articles, or
have a very complicated kill file that looks for typical
mud-weenie-post type questions and compares their length to the length
of the typical pern related information included in the article. you
mind mailing me such code? :-)
Remember, this isn't rec.arts.sf-lovers.pern, either. It's alt._fan_.pern.
It just so happens that most of the fans of Pern with net access are inter-
ested in MUSH. So cope. Get a kill file. Take a valium. Or unsubscribe,
if the newsgroup's as horrid as you claim. You're not doing yourself a
favor, nor us, by posting childing flames against PernMUSH.
and you remember this is not rec.games.mud, or alt.mud. it's
alt.fan.pern. not alt.fan.pernmush, or alt.fan.mud, or whathaveyou...
i don't object to the announcements of hatchings or mating flights...
i could even put up with the announcements of new pernmuds. i do not
think i should have to put up with "how do i mud?", or "where is my
pet mud located?" there is already a newsgroup for mudding.
if you started taking over soc.couples with tinyrelationship questions
would you tell them to put tinyrelationship in a kill file?
if everyone really wants this to be alt.fan.pernmush, then just change
it. as it is, it is highly misleading to the pern fan who does not
wish to get involved in playing pernmush for whatever reason.
c.
--
HEACOCK, SARAH ELIZABETH
~In article <1991Oct19....@cco.caltech.edu> morp...@cco.caltech.edu (Ken Bartlett) writes:
~
[very _long_ article relating to why somebody doesn't think PernMUSH should be
discussed here deleted so my reader will accept my post :)]
I just wanted to speak up in favor of PernMUSH postings -- I hadn't even
realized these things exist but, now I do, I'm working on trying it out. It
would be _very_ difficult to find pernMUSH-specific info. in rec.games.mud, so
I'm glad it's here. Also, I get the impression this is different from most muds
so has its own kind of problems associated with it.
Jeff Hanson
> what causes down's syndrome? what causes any mutation?
Not to be picky, but; it's not down's syndrome but Down syndrome. It is not
correct to say that someone has "Downs" since this is not the name of the
condition.
> it is implied that ruth may not have been the first of his kind. the
> only difference is no one bothered trying to save the others.
Warning - preachy posting coming about inclusion.
I was thinking about this posting in the light of what Pern can teach us,
here is real life. Pernish society is not one that rewards differences
easily as evidenced by most of the main characters in the books. Ruth
is different from others and is segregated from others of his kind and
from most humans. Jaxom tries with limited success (initially) to have
Ruth included with dragons and humans. Only when Ruth's unique nature
is appreciated is he fully accepted. Note: the other dragons never had
a problem accepting Ruth, it was only the humans. My conclusion from
reading about Pern is that society should nuture those that are different,
not exclude them.
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Hanson - Scientific Graphics Programmer and Workstation Administrator
Sverdrup Technology, NASA Lewis Research Center Group
NASA Lewis Research Center, MS 86-4, Cleveland, Ohio 44135
Telephone - (216) 433-2284 Fax - (216) 433-2182
toha...@gonzo.lerc.nasa.gov - ViSC: Better Science Through Pictures
Ann Laurel Kopchik
Chr...@mentor.cc.purdue (c.) writes....
>i disagree with your last part however. i saw at least one post that
>was 1598 lines long that was on pernmush that did not have pernmush in
>the subject line. it appears to be the rules that pernmush runs by,
>but i'm not interested in reading a file that long to find out.
>(oops... i just went to check. i should correct myself. this was NOT
>an article relating to pern in any way other than being instructions
>on how to play mush. it was not even related to pernmush, let alone
>pern) (also note that besides this article not being labeled so one
>could tell it was a mud related article as opposed to a pern article,
>it was also exceedingly long, and did not carry a warning to that
>effect. this is considered by most to be in bad taste)
I am sorry for not warning those about the length of the Help Text
file.... My mistake.
I would like to note that is was posted BEFORE the subject of putting
pernMUSH in the title line came up.
I would like to sugest to c. that she be a bit less umm... er... bitchy
about pernMush posts... it makes this list much less enjoyable to read.
oh, and I do have a life, dispite the fact that I play on a MUSH.
PernMUSH is my way of relaxing.
Ann Kopchik
ak...@andrew.cmu.edu ///// Carnegie Mellon University
Amergina, Jorneyman Harper on pernMUSH
Disclaimer :I kant spell fer beens....
Edmond L. Meinfelder
> [a lot of negative stuff]
Face it people, she is out to cause trouble. She is not here for the
porpose of illuminating discussion. The next course of action should be
obvious to anyone who regularly reads news.
For those who don't: You simply ignore such people
--
Edmond L. Meinfelder emei...@gmuvax2.gmu.edu -or- emei...@gmuvax.bitnet
==========----- It takes a TOUGH man to MAKE a tender chicken? -----==========
Edmond L. Meinfelder
>There's really no excuse
>for someone to be here bitching about one branch of Pern fandom's postings
>when (1) it's a legitimate use of the newsgroup, and (2) anyone with half
>a brain could avoid any MUSH-related question very easily.
Ken, perhaps you should try to be more constructive yourself.
Bitching at someone bitching seems somewhat.... well silly.
Christi
I also don't see any other posts in support of yours. Certainly it doesn't
look like the rest of this newsgroup is annoyed (they're annoyed with you,
yes, but not with the PernMUSH posts).
no.... nobody supports me on this. i'm just trying to be a martyr. i
certainly haven't seen any posts here agreeing with me. nope. none
at all. i certainly haven't seen any posts saying that mud topics
really shouldn't be here, or that topics related to how muds work
shouldn't be here... uh uh.
no. i haven't gotten any mail to that effect either.
and i certainly haven't gotten any mail that says someone actually....
gasp... likes my posts...
get a clue.
c.
--