Decision 2000 (again)
Floridays
>
> I saw the butterfly ballot in the paper. I thought it wasn't too
> complicated. My first reaction was, "How dumb can you be to not
understand
> it?" But, then I started listening to a lot of talk radio. Every show is
> talking about this nonstop. And, I was enlightened. I guess if you're
> talking about senior citizens with horrible eyesight and shaky, arthritic
> hands like many are in West Palm Beach that would promote a problem. I
also
> heard from ABC News that the butterfly ballot is illegal in Florida. The
> Republican response to this was that the same butterfly ballot type (for
the
> judges, not the president) is used in Cook County, IL... where Gore's
> campaign manager (Bill Daley) has a brother that is the mayor of Chicago
> (Richard Daley)... Another thing, why did Florida have like 10 people on
> the ballot for president? Monica Moorehead being one... Is that a joke?
I
> think in IN we just had Gore, Bush, Buchanan, & Nader for our choices.
>
> Why did Bush once lead by 1784 in FL and now he's up by only like 225?
And,
> his brother is the governor... I think there's some fuzzy math going on
in
> The Sunshine State.
>
The only defense I can offer that will make any sense to you:
Yep - there must be a conspiracy going on! It's not the republicans - its
the green people who took over Desdemona's rocket ship that are sucking the
brains out of people so that they couldn't understand the ballot!!
I live in Brevard County. We had a ballot very similar to Volusia County
(one county to the north of Brevard) that happens to be one of the ones
getting a manual recount. Our ballots, and Volusia's, were scan type where
we had to use a black marking pen provided in the booth to color in the
little black circle next to the name of the candidate we wanted to vote for.
The ballot was specifically clear and even showed an example of how to do
it. It also specifically stated to not place an "X" or a check mark. The
sample ballots were published in the papers and provided to registered
voters before the election. I was watching local news (Orlando feed) last
night on the Volusia recount. They were holding up ballots where people
ignored the directions and placed check marks next to the candidates' name
they wanted to vote for. I have NO sympathy if these votes weren't properly
counted using the scan machines. If the people can't follow simple enough
directions, their votes shouldn't count. Scan machines are a fact of life
today. Should we get rid of them all - go back to hand grading all SAT
scores, hand analyzing student achievement tests to determine the intent of
what the student was really intending to mean when taking the test (both
candidates support standardized testing for schools), etc.? Should we throw
out ALL machine counted ballots across the country and hand count each
individual one to determine the intent of the voters? This isn't just for
the presidency. There are probably hundreds, maybe even thousands, of
congressional races, local elections and referendums that either passed or
failed by a handful of votes around the country. Should we now go back and
handcount every one of these? One in our local area was for a huge $$
program to put in a light rail system in the Orlando area. It passed by a
slim margin. I'm not fond of the idea and happened to vote against it mainly
for environmental reasons. Should I mount a legal challenge and force a hand
recount? Notice - I don't believe this is a partisan issue. To me it's a
simple as - if you're too stupid to cast a proper ballot, your vote
shouldn't count.
Your argument of seniors with horrible eyesight and shaky arthritic hands is
LAME. BTW - the butterfly ballot was not defacto illegal as you claim. ABC
might have reported that just like they reported Gore the winner of Florida
at around 8 PM election night. Hmm - what does that tell you? Title IX
Chapter 101.27, Voting Machine Ballots, of the Florida Statutes in part
specifically states "3) The order in which the voting machine ballot is
arranged shall as nearly as practicable conform to the requirements of the
form of the paper ballot for that election. The names of the unopposed
candidates shall not appear on the general election ballot; each unopposed
candidate shall be deemed to have voted for himself or herself. If two or
more write-in candidates are seeking election for one office, only one blank
space shall be provided." Title IX Chapter 101.191, Form of general election
ballot, describes the format of the paper ballot. Notice the wording in
Chapter 101.27 of "as nearly as practicable ..". Although I'm not a lawyer,
my gut instinct is that this gives the wiggle room to make it legal in
format. I'm certain, however, this will be litigated greatly in the future -
and where it ends is anyone's guess. However, it's not a guess, it's a fact,
that you can't trust everything you hear on TV. Maybe it's wise to do a
little more in-depth personal analysis of the issue before making claims.
As I've posted before, what I like about this whole thing is that we are a
nation of laws that govern how things must be done. I personally believe
that the Gore camp was fully in the right to request a hand recount - that's
what the law says and authorizes. I was disappointed in the Bush camp for
challenging this in federal court. I agreed with the judge's ruling that the
law states that it's a state issue and the federal government should stay
out of it. I agree with the Florida Sec of State's ruling that all Counties
must have certified results by 5 PM today - THAT'S WHAT THE FLORIDA LAW
REQUIRES. She would fully leave herself, and the State, open to much
greater litigation if she wasn't following the law. I believe the electoral
college is good, but I'm not averse to changing it if that's the will of the
people. Since it is part of our constitution, it will require an amendment
with 2/3 of the states ratifying the change. This is very difficult to
achieve. A more realistic solution, as offered by other wise people in this
newsgroup, is to change the way the individual states cast their electoral
votes instead of being an all or nothing thing.
Anyway - this is a great country. We need to get away from the rhetoric from
the Republicans, Democrats and special interest groups (such as Jesse
Jackson now in Florida doing nothing to calm the situation and everything to
incite further discontent) and focus on the proper governance according to
the law. I'm certain each candidate has too much invested in this (time,
money and prestige) to walk away cleanly knowing that it was a close race. I
just hope that it gets better before it gets worse for the country.
- Floridays
(One who is often entertained and amused from talk radio - but never
enlightened from it (as is the Exhalted One)).
ExaltedOne
"Floridays" <sail...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
: I live in Brevard County. We had a ballot very similar to Volusia County
: (one county to the north of Brevard) that happens to be one of the ones
: getting a manual recount. Our ballots, and Volusia's, were scan type where
: we had to use a black marking pen provided in the booth to color in the
: little black circle next to the name of the candidate we wanted to vote
for.
: The ballot was specifically clear and even showed an example of how to do
: it. It also specifically stated to not place an "X" or a check mark. The
: sample ballots were published in the papers and provided to registered
: voters before the election. I was watching local news (Orlando feed) last
: night on the Volusia recount. They were holding up ballots where people
: ignored the directions and placed check marks next to the candidates' name
: they wanted to vote for. I have NO sympathy if these votes weren't
properly
: counted using the scan machines. If the people can't follow simple enough
: directions, their votes shouldn't count. Scan machines are a fact of life
: today. Should we get rid of them all - go back to hand grading all SAT
: scores, hand analyzing student achievement tests to determine the intent
of
: what the student was really intending to mean when taking the test (both
: candidates support standardized testing for schools), etc.? Should we
throw
: out ALL machine counted ballots across the country and hand count each
: individual one to determine the intent of the voters? This isn't just for
: the presidency.
I don't think it needs to go to extremes. One guy in here mentioned his
state with touch screens or something that made it impossible to mess up. I
think that's the way it should be. But, your SAT and school references
don't work for me. These are educated people that should know better.
From listening to talk radio a lot, I heard a very valid point. Let's
realize that everyone just isn't as smart as you and I. There's a lot of
old people that aren't the brightest pennies in the fountain. Many are
uneducated. Many have poor eyesight. Many have arthritis. Many can't
determine between holes 1/8" apart. Before I get flamed about calling old
people not to bright, I'm saying how many of you have grandparents that can
program a VCR? Or set up their answering machine? Or set the clock on the
microwave? My grandparents are uneducated and can't do any of those things.
I think everyone needs to realize that not everyone is as smart as you are.
All of a sudden, it's the Republicans now calling the Democrats too stupid
to vote. God help us all.
: Your argument of seniors with horrible eyesight and shaky arthritic hands
Lord have mercy, ABC News wasn't in depth enough for you. Maybe I should
believe what some guy posted in a newsgroup.
:
: As I've posted before, what I like about this whole thing is that we are a
: nation of laws that govern how things must be done. I personally believe
: that the Gore camp was fully in the right to request a hand recount -
that's
: what the law says and authorizes. I was disappointed in the Bush camp for
: challenging this in federal court. I agreed with the judge's ruling that
the
: law states that it's a state issue and the federal government should stay
: out of it. I agree with the Florida Sec of State's ruling that all
Counties
: must have certified results by 5 PM today - THAT'S WHAT THE FLORIDA LAW
: REQUIRES. She would fully leave herself, and the State, open to much
: greater litigation if she wasn't following the law. I believe the
electoral
: college is good, but I'm not averse to changing it if that's the will of
the
: people. Since it is part of our constitution, it will require an amendment
: with 2/3 of the states ratifying the change. This is very difficult to
: achieve. A more realistic solution, as offered by other wise people in
this
: newsgroup, is to change the way the individual states cast their electoral
: votes instead of being an all or nothing thing.
:
I agree with getting rid of the electoral college.
: Anyway - this is a great country. We need to get away from the rhetoric
from
: the Republicans, Democrats and special interest groups (such as Jesse
: Jackson now in Florida doing nothing to calm the situation and everything
to
: incite further discontent) and focus on the proper governance according to
: the law. I'm certain each candidate has too much invested in this (time,
: money and prestige) to walk away cleanly knowing that it was a close race.
I
: just hope that it gets better before it gets worse for the country.
:
: - Floridays
: (One who is often entertained and amused from talk radio - but never
: enlightened from it (as is the Exhalted One)).
I am enlightened. Republicans just have a one track mind.
Floridays
> state with touch screens or something that made it impossible to mess up.
I
> think that's the way it should be. But, your SAT and school references
> don't work for me. These are educated people that should know better.
Huh? Don't work for you? SATs are for students not yet out of high school.
The standardized school testing I'm referring to is for all primary
education - including elementary school kids. I don't think these can be
classified as "educated people that should know better" unless you're trying
to imply that the seniors are not as intelligent as elementary school
children.
> From listening to talk radio a lot, I heard a very valid point. Let's
> realize that everyone just isn't as smart as you and I. There's a lot of
> old people that aren't the brightest pennies in the fountain. Many are
> uneducated. Many have poor eyesight. Many have arthritis. Many can't
> determine between holes 1/8" apart. Before I get flamed about calling old
> people not to bright, I'm saying how many of you have grandparents that
can
> program a VCR? Or set up their answering machine? Or set the clock on
the
> microwave? My grandparents are uneducated and can't do any of those
things.
> I think everyone needs to realize that not everyone is as smart as you
are.
I'm not asking that they be as smart as I. I only advocate that people that
want their votes to be counted should be able to at least follow some very
simple and plain written instructions.
> All of a sudden, it's the Republicans now calling the Democrats too stupid
> to vote. God help us all.
I never said this. I tried to be non-partisan. Let's just follow the law.
> Lord have mercy, ABC News wasn't in depth enough for you. Maybe I should
> believe what some guy posted in a newsgroup.
Yep - ABC news isn't in depth enough for me - nor is some guy in a
newsgroup. I believe a person should do their own research into the facts
before continuing the rhetoric that is proffered by others. I cited you
specific Florida Statues, as to the letter of the law, but it appears you'd
rather not believe reality and still just cling to weak claims of others.
> I agree with getting rid of the electoral college.
Wonderful. I can't and won't argue with your personal beliefs. Our
constitution allows for specific ways in order for it to be changed. I have
no problem with changing it according to specififed procedure.
> : - Floridays
> : (One who is often entertained and amused from talk radio - but never
> : enlightened from it (as is the Exhalted One)).
>
> I am enlightened. Republicans just have a one track mind.
And your Democrat mind has which two or more tracks?
t.a. barnhart
> that
> want their votes to be counted should be able to at least follow some
> very
> simple and plain written instructions.
>
but what you continue to miss is that this is not an issue of
intelligence but of physical abilities. obviously, the people who had
problems knew what they were trying to do. they punched holes in the
ballot; hello, what else was missing from following the directions?
what went wrong was that they were unable, for a variety of reasons, to
use the ballot properly: vision, impaired physical dexterity, maybe even
just the kind of confusion that seems to accompany many aging people.
how literate were many of these voters? how many were immigrants,
perhaps never having had a chance to learn english very well.
none of these issues involve intelligence. besides, when did we start
requiring people be bright enough to be allowed to vote? we certainly
don't place that requirement on the damn candidates -- or, in gore's
case, we use his intelligence to castigate him. stop looking at whether
people are smart enough to vote and start looking if the people
responsible for the mechanics of voting are compassionate and insightful
enough.
Brian M Kochera
I recall a few years ago a big story about how the Princeton based company that
scored SAT, GRE and MCAT tests, which is refereed to above...declaired scan code
tests to be very inaccurate. It seems that the scan readers can become dirty
and misread marks to be scanned. They claimed that they were tired of
performing all kinds of convoluted calculations to correct for "machine error".
They favored introduction of computerized testing using devices similar to palm
pilot and other PIMs.
Since they felt so strongly about this that they had gone public, there were law
suits on all sides. Now, after the dust settled and lawyer's sharked their way
to deeper waters the ETS formerly Princeton Educational Testing Service has
farmed the test scoring out to another firm. This year they announced plans to
revamp the tests in begin introducing web page based tests for students in rural
areas too far from regional testing areas.
Put simply. Scan code ballots are just as inaccurate as those punch card votes.
You may have made your mark as black as the black hole of calcutta. But, if the
machine that scan's your vote gets dirty - your perfectly cast vote could still
be invalidated.
--
Brian M. Kochera
---
Email: mailto:bria...@earthlink.net
View My Web Page: http://home.earthlink.net/~brian1951
----
ExaltedOne
"Floridays" <sail...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
: > Lord have mercy, ABC News wasn't in depth enough for you. Maybe I
should
: > believe what some guy posted in a newsgroup.
:
: Yep - ABC news isn't in depth enough for me - nor is some guy in a
: newsgroup. I believe a person should do their own research into the facts
: before continuing the rhetoric that is proffered by others. I cited you
: specific Florida Statues, as to the letter of the law, but it appears
you'd
: rather not believe reality and still just cling to weak claims of others.
You regard ABC News as a weak claim?
ExaltedOne
have said it better myself:
C'mon, Republicans: Let's be totally honest
November 15, 2000
BY RICHARD ROEPER SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST
If I hear one more national pundit or local commentator advance the twin
myths that Mayor Daley the First stole the 1960 election for John F. Kennedy
yet Richard Nixon abandoned plans to challenge the race "for the good of the
country," I'm going to take out my 9-iron and start knocking some official
"Bush 2000" souvenir golf balls through some media building headquarters.
First off, even if the Democratic Machine delivered Cook County and thus
Illinois' 27 electoral votes for Kennedy, it would not have been enough to
change the outcome of the election.
Kennedy won the popular vote by a mere 113,000 votes, but the vote in the
Electoral College was 303 for JFK, 219 for Nixon and 15 for Harry F. Byrd.
Put Illinois in Nixon's column and the results would have been:
Kennedy: 276
Nixon: 246
Now if you want to argue that Texas or West Virginia also should have gone
to Nixon, I'll point out that Tricky Dick won California only after a
recount--just as they're doing in Florida. We could debate the results in
other states forever, but isolating Illinois as the swing state that
determined the election is fuzzy history.
As for Nixon's supposed grace under pressure in 1960, that's a GOP myth of
revisionist history, perpetuated by ever self-serving Nixon himself in
memoirs and interviews over the years. The reality is that the GOP went to
court to obtain recounts while Republican operatives conducted
investigations into alleged fraud in a number of states, including Illinois
and Texas. Had they found enough evidence to overturn the electoral vote,
rest assured that Nixon would have tackled a hatless JFK on the inaugural
podium if he thought there was reason to fight for the office.
* * *
Turning now to the controlled chaos in Florida, I have a request of my
Republican friends:
For just a moment, can we set aside the name-calling and the political
rhetoric and the deadline debates and the interpretation of Florida laws so
we can speak of loftier truths?
Excellent. Now please place your hand on the Bible, and tell me that in your
heart of heart of hearts, you believe more Floridians truly intended to vote
for George W. Bush than for Al Gore last Tuesday.
Humor me and play along. I'm not asking you to renounce your hatred for
Gore, Clinton, the Democratic Party and the liberal media, or to abandon
your legal arguments in favor of Bush. I'm asking you to be honest with
yourself.
You know it, don't you? You know that Bush clings to that Lara Flynn
Boyle-thin lead by sheer dumb luck. Hanging chads, pregnant chads, butterfly
ballots--this is why Bush has the lead. More people voted for Gore.
But you're willing to sidestep that ethical landmine and claim victory for
your man as quickly as possible, aren't you? Kick the extra point before the
ref blows the whistle and goes to the replay monitor!
Never mind that Bush himself signed a Texas law stating that manual recounts
are preferred over electronic recounts. Pay no attention to the Newsweek
poll that found 72 percent of Americans believe it's more important to get
an accurate count than to finish this thing NOW for the proverbial good of
the country. Your man "won" and that's that!
Interesting. You were offended by Clinton's rutting behavior and you were
outraged by Al Gore's "lies" and exaggerations, but you don't have a problem
with Bush winning the presidency despite having fewer votes in the popular
election and quite probably fewer true votes in the Florida contest, right?
This is the same kind of conveniently shifting moral compass the Bush
apologists used when we learned about Dubya's DUI conviction, his
chickenhawk stance on the Vietnam War, his multiple arrests and all the
other potholes he fell into when he was "young and reckless," i.e., not yet
40. A Democrat would have been crucified for such behavior, but the Bushians
who obsessively parsed Gore's statement about taking the initiative in
creating the Internet and ripped him for saying he inspired the Oliver
character in "Love Story" were beautifully silent about their own guy's
imperfect past.
I'm not saying Bush's past should have been the determining factor for
voters, nor am I advocating an endless stream of legal protests once the
votes in Florida have been legally recounted and tallied in accordance with
state law.
I'm just asking for a little consistency from the right.
Steph
> Put simply. Scan code ballots are just as inaccurate as those punch card
votes.
> You may have made your mark as black as the black hole of calcutta. But,
if the
> machine that scan's your vote gets dirty - your perfectly cast vote could
still
> be invalidated.
My "close to home" voting story:
An incumbent county commissioner in my little county had an opponent his
time who worked hard at campaigning, while the incumbent did little. When
the votes were counted (by optical reader) the incumbent lost by five votes.
(1,219 to 1,214) After a manual handcount, 51 additional ballots turned up,
and the incumbent won by two votes (1,243 to 1,241). The problem? The
ballots that weren't counted originally were in the early ballots, which
indicated that they were mainly mail-in absentee ballots. These are
primarily elderly and invalid people, who failed to use a dark enough pencil
to blacken the circle of their preferred candidate, so the machine couldn't
count them, and they showed up as ballots on which the voter had failed to
vote in that particular race. Of course there were also a few who used
check and "X" marks, instead of following the directions...but who wants to
get hamstrung by following the directions! ;-) The election official says
that they used to send a little pencil in the mail with the ballots, but
they got so many complaints about the pencil showing up broken that they
quit. (Am I the only one who imagines Mildred calling the election office
and asking them to send someone by to sharpen her pencil?)
The good news is that with this type of ballot, handcounting is easy. Ok,
it's even easier when there are less than 2400 ballots cast! But it was
quite a dramatic week in Waller County! My favorite moment came today in
Commissioners Court when it came time to canvass the results of the recount.
The incumbent, who is notorious for abstaining from any vote that might be
in the least bit controversial, loudly moved that the recount be accepted,
and just as loudly voted in favor of the motion! We were all so shocked to
see him actually cast a vote that half the room burst out laughing.
I advise anyone with a sense of humor to spend some time observing local
government at work!
Steph (enjoying political drama on the small scale)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A piratis et latronibus dominuna non mutant.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
t.a. barnhart
Anderson" <cand...@twcny.rr.com> wrote:
> Dang it t.a.
>
> don't you know a "conspiracy" when you smell one?
>
> Hmm, i'd better get this screenplay out to Oliver Stone next week, UPN
> needs
> the ratings!!!!
> ;)
> CC
>
conspiracy? you mean how AARP keeps growing old people and having them
infiltrate key states like florida? i think the government needs to
stop this immediately, start requisitioning icebergs and sending these
codgers out to sea to meet their maker.
thanks for the warning, cc. i'm so naive about these things.
Christop Anderson
don't you know a "conspiracy" when you smell one?
Hmm, i'd better get this screenplay out to Oliver Stone next week, UPN needs
the ratings!!!!
;)
CC
ditching his aliensinvadingKeyLimeKeystory for the time being!!
"t.a. barnhart" <barn...@subboy.org> wrote in message
news:barnhart-702514...@news.pacifier.com...
Ed Nealson
"t.a. barnhart" wrote:
> In article <UK2R5.214777$JS3.33...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com>, "Christop
> Anderson" <cand...@twcny.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > Dang it t.a.
> >
> > don't you know a "conspiracy" when you smell one?
> >
> > Hmm, i'd better get this screenplay out to Oliver Stone next week, UPN
> > needs
> > the ratings!!!!
> > ;)
> > CC
> >
>
> conspiracy? you mean how AARP keeps growing old people and having them
> infiltrate key states like florida? i think the government needs to
> stop this immediately, start requisitioning icebergs and sending these
> codgers out to sea to meet their maker.
>
Kind of like former Colorado Governor Lamm? God I love Tom Paxton's Come
and Grow Old With Me In Colorado. Absolutely hilarious!
Christop Anderson
Ah yes
That must be the reason for the "Big White Cars'!!!
Must be a symbolism thing !!!!
They have much control over those vehicles as if they were put out on the
ice flows!!!!!
CC
Who will be dodging "Snow birds" in florida this "green Christmas"
"t.a. barnhart" <barn...@subboy.org> wrote in message
news:barnhart-366323...@news.pacifier.com...
> In article <UK2R5.214777$JS3.33...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com>, "Christop
> Anderson" <cand...@twcny.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > Dang it t.a.
> >
> > don't you know a "conspiracy" when you smell one?
> >
> > Hmm, i'd better get this screenplay out to Oliver Stone next week, UPN
> > needs
> > the ratings!!!!
> > ;)
> > CC
> >
>
> conspiracy? you mean how AARP keeps growing old people and having them
> infiltrate key states like florida? i think the government needs to
> stop this immediately, start requisitioning icebergs and sending these
> codgers out to sea to meet their maker.
>