Gringotts And Jews
Draco Malfoy
caricature of Jews using the Gringotts banking goblins. Oversized
noses, money handlers, undersized stature, ugly, controlling and
generally despicable.
http://images.google.com/images?q=gringotts+goblin&ie=UTF-8
If there is any question about this determined and oft repeated racial
slur, take a look at this.
<http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100704145952/harrypotter/images/0/07/Blason_de_Gringotts.gif>
I point out the use of the letter "J"; note in the lower curves in the
symbol, the smaller, upper curves with the dragon's heads (the "J" is
upside down) and in the "J" on each side of the gyroscope...or should
I say "jewryscope"?
Not to mention the "J"s in the black portion of the crest.
Any Jews-goblins attend Hogwarts? Teach there? Jew janitors? Nada. Any
other race of humans so ridiculously defamed by intentionally cruel
characterizations, art or other?
Sickening?
--
The fans rightly adore me !
https://twitter.com/TomFelton
Deevo
news:ihltes$36t$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
<snip>
> Any Jews-goblins attend Hogwarts? Teach there? Jew janitors? Nada. Any
> other race of humans so ridiculously defamed by intentionally cruel
> characterizations, art or other?
>
> Sickening?
More like a piss poor attempt to troll up some nonexistant controversy.
VD
> JK Rowling( author of Harry Potter books) created a very thinly veiled
Sickening is POV. My POV is that her, let's call it "distaste" for the
Jew, parallels with Rowling's understated theme to spread the
teachings of Jesus through the Potter series. We had this
discussion...
...I had expected that you would find the second phase of her great
Christian propaganda more quickly. ;)
Draco Malfoy
heh I wasn't thinking about that discussion, I was looking at several
images I had downloaded and ran across the Gringotts Bank shield.
Makes perfect sense, Rowling would have to have an anti-Jew bias to go
along with her pro-Christian agenda. Very wily of her.
VD
Very wily indeed and with little doubt, the staged images of the
Gringott Jews were part of her Christian parcel...so to speak.
I looked upon Fountain of Magical Brethren to add support to Rowling's
two pronged approach to spreading (her version?) of Christianity.
>http://harrypotter.wikia.com/index.php?title=Fountain_of_Magical_Brethren&image=Ministry2-JPG>
VD
Mr. Deevo, I understand that the word "Jew" stirs up anxieties in
people, perhaps even in you. To award Mr. Malfoy originality in this
subject is as inaccurate as your comment.
<https://whippersnapper.wordpress.com/2007/07/24/harry-potter-and-the-jewish-goblins/>
Draco Malfoy
Don't get it.
VD
The Fountain of Magical Brethren represents a wizard, a witch,
centaur, a goblin and a house elf. In that order by size and stature.
It is an hierarchal representation of the pecking order of the
Wizarding World.
The Gringott Jew would be both slightly human and slightly animal.
Rowling has set the sociological system in place at the time.
Draco Malfoy
Yeaf F.O. Deevo, you flowerpot headed freako lOL
Draco Malfoy
Yeah, yeah, okay...wow...she really has it out for those Goblin-Jews.
SPT
> JK Rowling( author ofHarry Potter books) created a very thinly veiled
> caricature of Jews using the Gringotts banking goblins. Oversized
> noses, money handlers, undersized stature, ugly, controlling and
> generally despicable.
>
> http://images.google.com/images?q=gringotts+goblin&ie=UTF-8
>
> If there is any question about this determined and oft repeated racial
> slur, take a look at this.
>
>
> I point out the use of the letter "J"; note in the lower curves in the
> symbol, the smaller, upper curves with the dragon's heads (the "J" is
> upside down) and in the "J" on each side of the gyroscope...or should
> I say "jewryscope"?
>
> Not to mention the "J"s in the black portion of the crest.
>
> Any Jews-goblins attend Hogwarts? Teach there? Jew janitors? Nada. Any
> other race of humans so ridiculously defamed by intentionally cruel
> characterizations, art or other?
>
> Sickening?
> --
> The fans rightly adore me !https://twitter.com/TomFelton
Goblins are goblins. They are not Jews. Rowling did not invent the
concept of "goblins" as a way to satirise Jewish moneylenders. Goblins
existed long before Harry Potter.
Admittedly, Rowling does make her goblins "hook nosed" and in charge
of banking. It is hard to ignore that combination of attributes. And I
don't think we should----- you are basically correct that Rowling's
goblins are supposed to invoke stereotypes about Jews.
But that, after all, is the joke. They are fairy tale goblins, yes.
But, oy vey, they could really go for a nice bowl of matzah ball
soup.
Well, ok, it is not that obvious. But the sort of fantasy equivalency
where goblins are very much like Jews is basically in keeping with
Rowling's overall inversion of stereotypes. We need to remember that
Hermione Granger, one of Harry's best friends is a 'witch', surely a
word with plenty of stereotypes attached, stereotypes that Rowling not
only does not dispel, but instead embraces in a gently humorous
fashion.
The overall joke is that ALL in the wizarding world are regarded as
slightly dubious and strange by the "normals". And they are right.
Even the good guys are strange and slightly dubious at times. Even
Dumbledore is more funny that fatherly in the first book. "A bit mad,
yes" in Percy's words. Similarly Rowling's portrayal of Goblins as
stereotypical Jewish bankers is not hateful, it is simply humorous.
Like everything else in the wizarding world.
It is not her best joke, of course. But I don't see that these
stereotypes imply anything about her own opinions.
-------------
As for Jews attending Hogwarts, among the named characters one would
assume that Anthony Goldstein at least is Jewish. And Hermione Granger
certainly cannot be ruled out. Severus Snape, of course, has the ever
reliable hook nose to point our thoughts towards Zion. And Snape not
only taught at Hogwarts, he became headmaster and was a hero of the
second war, having shielded the students of Hogwarts from the full
rigors of the Death Eater regime.
Now Snape was not a model teacher, of course. Or a model person. But
his personality, in the end, is complex and certainly not hateful.
VD
My dear Draco,
I do not know if J. K. Rowling is an anti-Semite or not. Neither do I
care for the sake of this thread. Shall we keep our focus? :)
Although Christ loves All Man, I proffer to attend to Rowling's
self-admitted Christian agenda, she would need to address the
Crucifixion. That is, she would establish the separation of the Jews
and the Christians by their salvations. The Christians are saved, the
Jews are not.
How does she accomplish this goal? Her Harry Potter theme clearly
reflects Rowling's concerted efforts to vilify the Jew-goblin,
dehumanize them and, thus, separate them from the Christian themes.
Harry is the suffering Christ, whose friends suffer unto him (Ron,
HJG, etc.) yet triumph at the end of the Potter Day. The Gringotts
Jew-Goblins ultimately turn away from The Good; note their allegiances
in the Battle of Hogwarts, DH part Two.
Draco Malfoy
Even the house elves got redemption in the end, the Jew-Goblins were
villains all along. As Hagrid said, "They're goblins Harry. Clever as
they come the goblins, but not the most friendly of *beasts".*
Day Brown
> JK Rowling( author ofHarry Potter books) created a very thinly veiled
> caricature of Jews using the Gringotts banking goblins. Oversized
> noses, money handlers, undersized stature, ugly, controlling and
> generally despicable.
>
> http://images.google.com/images?q=gringotts+goblin&ie=UTF-8
http://www.daybrown.org/artifax/artifax.htm
Those are bags of gold on the platters, and while they are dressed in
Chinese Silks, the faces are the same as the Khazar elite on the other
end of the Silk Road, who converted to Judaism in this same era.
Both the Khazar elites and the Tocharian elites were Aryan. Its worth
noting that no Aryan culture, which was not also Christian, ever had a
"Jewish problem".
VD
> Goblins are goblins. They are not Jews. Rowling did not invent the
> concept of "goblins" as a way to satirise Jewish moneylenders. Goblins
> existed long before Harry Potter.
>
> Admittedly, Rowling does make her goblins "hook nosed" and in charge
> of banking. It is hard to ignore that combination of attributes. And I
> don't think we should----- you are basically correct that Rowling's
> goblins are supposed to invoke stereotypes about Jews.
Appreciate your input. We are speaking of caricatures, as you have
mentioned, very purposeful ones. I believe their purpose supports the
underlying theme of Harry Potter which I take from Rowling's own words
- Christianity.
> But that, after all, is the joke. They are fairy tale goblins, yes.
> But, oy vey, they could really go for a nice bowl of matzah ball
> soup.
All her caricatures have a humorous side. This would not deter the
effectiveness of translating the Jew-Goblin in her Christian terms.
> Well, ok, it is not that obvious. But the sort of fantasy equivalency
> where goblins are very much like Jews is basically in keeping with
> Rowling's overall inversion of stereotypes. We need to remember that
> Hermione Granger, one of Harry's best friends is a 'witch', surely a
> word with plenty of stereotypes attached, stereotypes that Rowling not
> only does not dispel, but instead embraces in a gently humorous
> fashion.
Ms. Granger's role in the Christian theme of HP has not been
approached in afh-p. That would make an interesting discussion. :)
> The overall joke is that ALL in the wizarding world are regarded as
> slightly dubious and strange by the "normals". And they are right.
> Even the good guys are strange and slightly dubious at times. Even
> Dumbledore is more funny that fatherly in the first book. "A bit mad,
> yes" in Percy's words. Similarly Rowling's portrayal of Goblins as
> stereotypical Jewish bankers is not hateful, it is simply humorous.
> Like everything else in the wizarding world.
> It is not her best joke, of course. But I don't see that these
> stereotypes imply anything about her own opinions.
I cannot rightfully call Ms. Rowling an anti-Semite, on this we agree.
> As for Jews attending Hogwarts, among the named characters one would
> assume that Anthony Goldstein at least is Jewish. And Hermione Granger
> certainly cannot be ruled out.
I would rule out HJG after seeing her bedroom, her house, meeting her
parents and listening to Hermione herself. I see nothing Jewish in any
of that.
As to Anthony Goldstein, "Anthony" is a typically Christian name,
Goldstein, Jewish. He was half-blood or pure, never determined. I
believe we have to say his religious heritage is inconclusive.
> Severus Snape, of course, has the ever reliable hook nose to point
> our thoughts towards Zion. And Snape not only taught at Hogwarts,
> he became headmaster and was a hero of the second war, having
> shielded the students of Hogwarts from the full rigors of the Death
> Eater regime.
I would agree with this assessment :)
VD
Yes, well, uh, thank you very much for your participation.
VD
*Beasts*, yes, clever of you to point that out, Malfoy ;).
Rowling very early on sets the tone in HP for the Gringotts-
Goblin-Jews as less than fully human. Mudbloods :)? This is not
happenstance. It is required.
It is late and I am off to bed, Dear Draco.
Deevo
news:4d3f8c4e$0$1070$afc3...@read01.usenet4all.se...
> On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 21:41:02 +0800, Deevo wrote:
>
>> "Draco Malfoy" <isleo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:ihltes$36t$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
>> <snip>
>>> Any Jews-goblins attend Hogwarts? Teach there? Jew janitors? Nada. Any
>>> other race of humans so ridiculously defamed by intentionally cruel
>>> characterizations, art or other?
>>>
>>> Sickening?
>>
>> More like a piss poor attempt to troll up some nonexistant controversy.
>
> Mr. Deevo, I understand that the word "Jew" stirs up anxieties in
> people, perhaps even in you. To award Mr. Malfoy originality in this
> subject is as inaccurate as your comment.
Where did I say the little twerp's comments were original? If anything the
complete opposite applies here. I'd describe the comment as remarkably ham
fisted and unimaginative to the extreme with the sole objective of stirring
up animated and spiteful discussion.
Oh, and by the way Mr Deevo was my father. :)
--
Deevo
Geraldton Western Australia
Draco Malfoy
> I cannot rightfully call Ms. Rowling an anti-Semite, on this we agree.
>
>> As for Jews attending Hogwarts, among the named characters one would
>> assume that Anthony Goldstein at least is Jewish. And Hermione Granger
>> certainly cannot be ruled out.
>
> I would rule out HJG after seeing her bedroom, her house, meeting her
> parents and listening to Hermione herself. I see nothing Jewish in any
> of that.
>
> As to Anthony Goldstein, "Anthony" is a typically Christian name,
> Goldstein, Jewish. He was half-blood or pure, never determined. I
> believe we have to say his religious heritage is inconclusive.
>
>> Severus Snape, of course, has the ever reliable hook nose to point
>> our thoughts towards Zion. And Snape not only taught at Hogwarts,
>> he became headmaster and was a hero of the second war, having
>> shielded the students of Hogwarts from the full rigors of the Death
>> Eater regime.
>
> I would agree with this assessment :)
>
> http://www.jewornotjew.com/profile.jsp?ID=143
Goldstein is a blond haired, blueyed something. He could still be
Jewish. But if Rowling had wanted to be sure of his Judaism, she could
have easily made him more like Rose Zeller or named him Sharon
Goldstein. The fact that she leaves this ambiguous for both Zeller and
Goldstein at least means she isn't interested in marking /any/ Jews in
Hogwarts.
Draco Malfoy
If Rowling as she said wrote HP with the purpose of exposing
Christianity to readers, the Jews had to be addressed. Given. She
pulled no punches in making them vile little Gringotters.
SPT
I think the importance of Christianity in Harry Potter has been
somewhat overstated. While there are certainly Christian themes in the
final four books of the series, the first three have essentially zero
religious symbolism.
Instead their basic theme is humorous subversion of long standing
cliches from children's literature, school stories, Gothic tales and
mystery novels. Basically, the first three HP books are mystery novels
with humorous elements taken from genre fiction.
The goblins of Gringotts are one such element. Rowling does not make
them stand-in for Jews because she dislikes money-grubbing, hawk-nosed
bankers, she does so because depicting Jews in such a manner is a
cliche of genre fiction, a cliche she humorously subverts by
amplifying it to the point of absurdity.
Rowling starts with the Jewish money-lender caricature, depicted
frequently in Gothic fiction as short and with goblin-like
features---- to outwardly mirror the dark and twisted soul that
comes, inevitably, from banking---- and she accepts that cliche at
face value and then goes beyond it. Her bankers don't just look like
goblins, they actually ARE goblins. That is the joke and the
subversion.
Again, it is not her best joke. She has other, similar, subversions of
cliche that are better. Dumbledore, for instance, is not just the
cliched "slightly eccentric genius" of popular fiction. Instead the
"few words" of his start of term speech indicate that he is not so
much "eccentric" as completely barking mad.
Also funnier is the notion that her witches and wizards do not merely
ride broomsticks, they have to be TAUGHT to ride broomsticks in a sort
of driver education class. And these young people drool over hot new
broomsticks in exactly the same way that real kids drool over cool
motorcycles or cars.
-------------------------------
Ultimately, the fundamental purpose of the Harry Potter books is NOT
to spread any sort of Christian message. The fundamental purpose of
Harry Potter has always been Providing Light Entertainment to the
Reader. Nothing more.
Later in the series, Rowling does provide a certain amount of
Christian symbolism and content along with symbolism from other
sources. But this is inevitable outcome once any decent writer has
written more that half a million words on any subject. Eventually you
want to take your game to a higher level and this is what Rowling
tries to do in Deathly Hallows.
> I would rule out HJG after seeing her bedroom, her house, meeting her
> parents and listening to Hermione herself. I see nothing Jewish in any
> of that.
>
You've been in Hermione's bedroom? You dog! Better hope Ron doesn't
find out.
We only see inside the Granger house in the film version of Harry
Potter and the Deathly Hallows (1/2). While JKR has considerable input
on the look and feel of the movies, I doubt her oversight extends to
set dressing of the Granger household.
And presumably Warner Bros. has no particular interest in the idea of
the "Jew-goblin".
VD
Unlike your blond beauty, Draco? ;) The Malfoys are distinctly
patterned after the Nazis as are many references and images
particularly in DH Part One.
Writers use antagonizing elements to enhance their protagonistical
themes. Could Ms. Rowling have spared the Gringott-Jew-Goblins their
severely antagonistical imagery? Softened their descriptions? Made
them taller? :) Positively. She did not and was purposeful in choosing
so.
VD
Rather than rehash Draco's and my discussions, your statement is
untrue beginning with the opening scenes of The Sorcerer's Stone.
> Instead their basic theme is humorous subversion of long standing
> cliches from children's literature, school stories, Gothic tales and
> mystery novels. Basically, the first three HP books are mystery novels
> with humorous elements taken from genre fiction.
>
> The goblins of Gringotts are one such element. Rowling does not make
> them stand-in for Jews because she dislikes money-grubbing, hawk-nosed
> bankers, she does so because depicting Jews in such a manner is a
> cliche of genre fiction, a cliche she humorously subverts by
> amplifying it to the point of absurdity.
Once you remove Rowling's Christianity, and her admitted use of it in
delivering the HP books, then you are allowed any conjecture
whatsoever as you have here.
Again, this is the fundamental difference in our approaches. I stand
by mine since it is prescribed and subscribed by the author herself.
>> I would rule out HJG after seeing her bedroom, her house, meeting her
>> parents and listening to Hermione herself. I see nothing Jewish in any
>> of that.
>>
>
> You've been in Hermione's bedroom? You dog! Better hope Ron doesn't
> find out.
>
> We only see inside the Granger house in the film version of Harry
> Potter and the Deathly Hallows (1/2). While JKR has considerable input
> on the look and feel of the movies, I doubt her oversight extends to
> set dressing of the Granger household.
We see HJG bdroom in the opening scenes and it has nothing that
indicates she is Jewish. I am looking at the scene cuts as I type and
suggest that you do the same.
> And presumably Warner Bros. has no particular interest in the idea of
> the "Jew-goblin".
I have no idea what W-B thought other than they produced the film as
we see it with the rather obvious Jewish references.
Draco Malfoy
Radcliffe is half-blood; Jewish mother, Protestant daddy.
<http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_9QCFncbAnNw/S81yPtbMORI/AAAAAAAAANg/ADbsyCR95qQ/s1600/Potter.jpg>
Another Rowling Harry-Jesus thing?
Draco Malfoy
> She has other, similar, subversions of
> cliche that are better. Dumbledore, for instance, is not just the
> cliched "slightly eccentric genius" of popular fiction. Instead the
> "few words" of his start of term speech indicate that he is not so
> much "eccentric" as completely barking mad.
I know where you copy n pasted that from, careful.
> Also funnier is the notion that her witches and wizards do not merely
> ride broomsticks, they have to be TAUGHT to ride broomsticks in a sort
> of driver education class. And these young people drool over hot new
> broomsticks in exactly the same way that real kids drool over cool
> motorcycles or cars.
Rowling wrote HP and did not put HP in a never netherland world. she
wrote it as if it was part of the times and this is what you would
expect.
> -------------------------------
>
> Ultimately, the fundamental purpose of the Harry Potter books is NOT
> to spread any sort of Christian message. The fundamental purpose of
> Harry Potter has always been Providing Light Entertainment to the
> Reader. Nothing more.
You're full of it. Dream on.
This post is like soooooooo many I have read over the years from those
silly HP forums stacked to the gills with pre-adolescent BS. Hey, read
Potter, enjoy Potter and make up any world you want about Potter but
don't play /your/ fantasy as fact.
It ain't.
> Later in the series, Rowling does provide a certain amount of
> Christian symbolism and content along with symbolism from other
> sources. But this is inevitable outcome once any decent writer has
> written more that half a million words on any subject.
Yeah, she ran out of things to type so she went Christian ballistic on
us? What films did you see? What books did you read?
> Eventually you want to take your game to a higher level and this is
> what Rowling tries to do in Deathly Hallows.
Huh?
>> I would rule out HJG after seeing her bedroom, her house, meeting her
>> parents and listening to Hermione herself. I see nothing Jewish in any
>> of that.
>>
>
> You've been in Hermione's bedroom? You dog! Better hope Ron doesn't
> find out.
>
> We only see inside the Granger house in the film version of Harry
> Potter and the Deathly Hallows (1/2). While JKR has considerable input
> on the look and feel of the movies, I doubt her oversight extends to
> set dressing of the Granger household.
Her oversight absolutely extends to review and opinion by contract.
> And presumably Warner Bros. has no particular interest in the idea of
> the "Jew-goblin".
If you are Jewish, don't play baseball, that would be strike 3.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100508200114AAAV2Xb
Day Brown
When the Goddess invented sex, She was beside Herself.
Oh one other thing about the Tocharians. They found a woman's casket
made 2.5 feet longer so her tall, black, conic, flat brimmed hat (that
would pass at any Halloween ball), could be worn in the grave.
Remember the New Testament says the "Magi came from the East?" Well,
this is THAT East. Chinese courts hired Tocharian astrologers and
magicians- in their wizard hats. Chinese texts say the "Ma-ag" the
greatest magicians, came from "The West."
These folks were the real McCoy.
VD
Congratulations, Malfoy, I didn't have to lead you to that
conclusion! She has never admitted as such but it is a rather a sharp
coincidence.
Yet James and Lily Potter graves were inscribed with New Testament
passage "Gospel of Matthew, chapter 6, verse 21, which *should be
examined in the context in which it appears in the Bible*:
This quotation is from Christļæ½s ļæ½Sermon on the Mount.ļæ½
"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and
rust consume and where thieves break in and steal; but store up for
yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes
and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure
is, there will your heart be also". (Matthew 6:19-21, NRSV)
Draco Malfoy
Along with
<https://phoenixweasley.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/camera-10-20-10-100.jpg>
of the Dumbledores; both were not in the films.
VD
Concerted effort by W-B imo to keep the religious content to the bare
minimum. Rowling had no alliteration to religion /directly/ until DH1
and the tombstones if I recall correctly. Keeping in mind, religion is
not to be confused with Christian imagery, themeing and root of her HP
works.
Draco Malfoy
> I think the importance of Christianity in Harry Potter has been
> somewhat overstated.
These authors would disagree.
http://secrets.sqpn.com/2010/12/23/shp-63-christmas-at-hogwarts/
http://media.libsyn.com/media/sqpn01/SHP-63.mp3
http://phoenixweasley.wordpress.com/
Mackenzie
>>> Radcliffe is half-blood; Jewish mother, Protestant daddy.
>>>
>>> <http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_9QCFncbAnNw/S81yPtbMORI/AAAAAAAAANg/ADbsyCR95qQ/s1600/Potter.jpg>
>>>
>>> Another Rowling Harry-Jesus thing?
>>
>> Congratulations, Malfoy, I didn't have to lead you to that
>> conclusion! She has never admitted as such but it is a rather a sharp
>> coincidence.
>>
>> Yet James and Lily Potter graves were inscribed with New Testament
>> passage "Gospel of Matthew, chapter 6, verse 21, which *should be
>> examined in the context in which it appears in the Bible*:
>>
>> This quotation is from Christļæ½s ļæ½Sermon on the Mount.ļæ½
>>
>> "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and
>> rust consume and where thieves break in and steal; but store up for
>> yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes
>> and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure
>> is, there will your heart be also". (Matthew 6:19-21, NRSV)
Telling about Voldemort and the Horcruxes, no heart, everything in the
earthly realm, a promise of doom and failure.
Mackenzie
>>> This quotation is from Christ’s “Sermon on the Mount.”
>>>
>>> "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and
>>> rust consume and where thieves break in and steal; but store up for
>>> yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes
>>> and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure
>>> is, there will your heart be also". (Matthew 6:19-21, NRSV)
>>
>> Along with
>>
>> <https://phoenixweasley.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/camera-10-20-10-100.jpg>
>>
>> of the Dumbledores; both were not in the films.
>
> Concerted effort by W-B imo to keep the religious content to the bare
> minimum. Rowling had no alliteration to religion /directly/ until DH1
> and the tombstones if I recall correctly. Keeping in mind, religion is
> not to be confused with Christian imagery, themeing and root of her HP
> works.
Religious films don't sell. End of story, goodbye, the end. It ouwld
not surprise me if Warner Brothers had finally control over anything
that mentioned religion. Only the last sentence of the Sermon On the
Mount made it to Dubledore's grave and no one knew what it was.
VD
> "VD" <DONTvi...@imapmail.orgSPAMME> wrote in message
> news:4d3f8c4e$0$1070$afc3...@read01.usenet4all.se...
>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 21:41:02 +0800, Deevo wrote:
>>
>>> "Draco Malfoy" <isleo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:ihltes$36t$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
>>> <snip>
>>>> Any Jews-goblins attend Hogwarts? Teach there? Jew janitors? Nada. Any
>>>> other race of humans so ridiculously defamed by intentionally cruel
>>>> characterizations, art or other?
>>>>
>>>> Sickening?
>>>
>>> More like a piss poor attempt to troll up some nonexistant controversy.
>>
>> Mr. Deevo, I understand that the word "Jew" stirs up anxieties in
>> people, perhaps even in you. To award Mr. Malfoy originality in this
>> subject is as inaccurate as your comment.
>
> Where did I say the little twerp's comments were original?
By claiming that he was engaged in "nonexistant controversy". If it
was nonexistent prior to his posting, then it must be original.
> If anything the complete opposite applies here. I'd describe the
> comment as remarkably ham fisted and unimaginative to the extreme
> with the sole objective of stirring up animated and spiteful
> discussion.
Then there are remarkably ham fisted and unimaginative people
referenced all throughout this thread. I seriously doubt that they are
being "extreme with the sole objective of stirring up animated and
spiteful discussion", Mr. Deevo.
If I am wrong, please point to one or them.
> Oh, and by the way Mr Deevo was my father. :)
Useful information?
Instead of making personal attacks on Mr. Malfoy, why not engage the
thread with useful information that fall under the subject being
discussed?
Draco Malfoy
This one is simple. Deevo is one of the long, lost and completely
estranged former participants an alt.fan.harry-potter. "Former". When
I came along, they lost their playground, turned their snoots up, and
piggied away. They return now and then to TROLL the new afh-p and
TROLL is the right word.
They could participate, they don't, that is a choice. A choice just
like Deevo's TROLLING is.
It's the age old story of a group of assholes taking control of public
Usenet for their own whoopies. When challenged, they split.
SPT
> <https://groups.google.com/group/alt.fan.harry-potter/browse_frm/threa...>
Ok, let's stop confusing the movies with the books. First mea culpa,
JKR does not call the goblins "hook nosed" at any point. They are hook
nosed in the movies and that was pointed out by a secondary source
that I looked at. I foolishly repeated it as if it applied to the book
HP and the Philosopher's Stone. Retracted.
Also, I will note that the noses of the goblins in the movies probably
is dictated more by the properties of theatrical latex than it is by
ethnic profiling. So there is nothing in either the book or the movies
to indicate that JKR's banking goblins are anything more than fairy-
tale goblins with an update to the Victorian-era. And so the whole
idea that they in any way represent Jews falls to the ground.
Now to your observation about the Granger's house. It is meaningless.
In the first place, I never asserted that Hermione was Jewish. I
merely stated that it could not be ruled out. So the fact that there
is no menorah on her mantlepiece is completely irrelevant to me; it
*still* doesn't rule anything out AND Hermione's religion is not
important anyway.
But the whole observation is doubly meaningless when talking about
Rowling's religious agenda, since this scene appears ONLY in the movie
version. There is no similar scene in any of the books.
In the books Hermione's religion is undetermined. There are a couple
of code words that could be construed as indicating Jewishness----
Hermione is BOOKISH, she has BUSHY hair and her parents are both
DENTISTS. Normally, in a book, these three code words would hash with
high reliability to JEWISH. But there is also some evidence for
Christianity, such as her recognition of a quote from the New
Testament and her wishing people a "Happy Christmas".
So we don't know. Rowling has not overdetermined Hermione's
background. But the question is irrelevant since religion in the books
is handled only at a symbolic level. That symbolism is, by the
author's own statements, substantially Christian.
But this statement does not change the books in any way. And the first
six Harry Potter books could have been written by anyone, Christian,
Jew, Hindu, atheist, Communist or neo-pagan. There is simply nothing
in any of the first six books that allows the reader to determine the
author's religious views with certainty. This is because the books are
not religious propaganda, they are comic mystery novels.
DRACO MALFOY:
>> She has other, similar, subversions of
> >cliche that are better. Dumbledore, for instance, is not just the
> >cliched "slightly eccentric genius" of popular fiction. Instead the
>> "few words" of his start of term speech indicate that he is not so
>> much "eccentric" as completely barking mad.
>I know where you copy n pasted that from, careful.
Not copied. Not pasted. If I have inadvertently written the same thing
as someone else, I apologize. Wait. No I don't. Why should I? Great
minds think alike.
>This post is like soooooooo many I have read over the years from those
>silly HP forums stacked to the gills with pre-adolescent BS.
Yes, it's a fair cop. I am eleven years old. Well spotted.
Idiot.
>If you are Jewish, don't play baseball, that would be strike 3.
Huh? This doesn't make any sense. You are mixing your metaphors. Or
mixing them up at least.
You tell someone "don't play poker" when their bluff fails, because
bluffing is an essential part of poker. But you don't tell somebody to
not play baseball when they get three strikes. Everybody gets three
strikes in baseball from time to time. It is part of the game.
And what would being Jewish have to do with it? Would I get a smaller
strike zone or something? That hardly seems fair.
Anyway, I don't have three strikes. It's more like 70 Not Out.
Moving on to the argument you are trying to make with that link, as I
understand it your reasoning must go something like this:
1. Despite the fact that the Warner brothers were themselves Jewish,
Warner Bros. was willing to make cartoons with Jewish stereotypes in
order to make more money.
2. Therefore Warner Bros. today must also be willing to make films
with (rather extreme) stereotypes about money loving goblin-like Jews,
if it makes them more money.
3. And therefore, the depiction of goblins in the films as being
bankers must be anti-Semitic stereotypes designed to make money for a
studio founded by and still run by Jews.
4. Therefore Harry Potter is bad because JKR allowed Warner Bros.
(which is operated largely by Jews) to depict her goblin bankers as
stereotypical money grubbing Jews.... in order to make more money for
money grubbing Jews. And stereotypes are bad, therefore Harry Potter
is bad.
Ow. This argument makes my head hurt. Stop it.
But I suppose it is not COMPLETELY impossible. After all, Harry Potter
makes a LOT of money. We're not just talking truckloads of money here.
We are talking big container ships full of it.
And who doesn't like money? So I guess it is not COMPLETELY impossible
that a Jewish run studio would insert offensive Jewish stereotypes in
a film, if that is what the people want and were willing to pay for
it.
It does however seem pretty unlikely. Pretty damn unlikely. In the
first place, why would anybody think that is what people want? There
doesn't appear to be a lot of demand for that sort of thing.
In the second place, Warner Bros. did not know that the Harry Potter
would translate into a billion dollar franchise when they made the
first film. A popular book does not automatically turn into a popular
film series.
Thirdly, this just does not sound like something a modern corporation
would do. Why would they? Surely there has to be a better way to make
money.
--------------------------
The much more likely probability is that there are no offensive
stereotypes at work here. I am prepared to admit that any depiction of
bankers as short weird looking people with prominent noses is
inevitably going to bring up stereotypes about Jews, since Jews have
frequently been depicted both as bankers and as.... short weird
looking people with prominent noses.
But is this depiction offensive? I don't think so. As I stated before,
JKR's intent is take the stereotype, and amplify it until becomes
absurd and therefore funny.
She is not simply repeating a slander, she is aware of the stereotype
and using it intelligently for her own literary purposes. This is not
offensive. She is undercutting the stereotype, not propagating it.
VD
>>>> Congratulations, Malfoy, I didn't have to lead you to that
>>>> conclusion! She has never admitted as such but it is a rather a sharp
>>>> coincidence.
>>>>
>>>> Yet James and Lily Potter graves were inscribed with New Testament
>>>> passage "Gospel of Matthew, chapter 6, verse 21, which *should be
>>>> examined in the context in which it appears in the Bible*:
>>>>
>>>> This quotation is from Christļæ½s ļæ½Sermon on the Mount.ļæ½
>>>>
>>>> "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and
>>>> rust consume and where thieves break in and steal; but store up for
>>>> yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes
>>>> and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure
>>>> is, there will your heart be also". (Matthew 6:19-21, NRSV)
>>>
>>> Along with
>>>
>>> <https://phoenixweasley.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/camera-10-20-10-100.jpg>
>>>
>>> of the Dumbledores; both were not in the films.
>>
>> Concerted effort by W-B imo to keep the religious content to the bare
>> minimum. Rowling had no alliteration to religion /directly/ until DH1
>> and the tombstones if I recall correctly. Keeping in mind, religion is
>> not to be confused with Christian imagery, themeing and root of her HP
>> works.
>
> Religious films don't sell. End of story, goodbye, the end. It ouwld
> not surprise me if Warner Brothers had finally control over anything
> that mentioned religion. Only the last sentence of the Sermon On the
> Mount made it to Dubledore's grave and no one knew what it was.
In Rowling's interview *transcript* with Oprah, she claimed:
*Oprah:* "While Jo may have millions of fans around the world, she
also has her critics. Some have labeled Harry Potter as being too
dark and frightening for children. There have been religious critics
who have accused the books of promoting witchcraft, and some have
even campaigned for the books to be banned from schools. Jo says she
wasn't trying to make a religious statement when she wrote the
books" [that she was not trying to convert people to Christianity]
*Rowling:* "No, no, I am not. I'm not pushing any belief system here,"
she says. "Although there is a lot of Christian imagery in the books.
That's undeniable. But that's an allusion to a belief system in which
I was raised."
Go to 13:00 to 15:15
http://video.the-leaky-cauldron.org/video/1629
Notice how Rowling uses the term "belief system" which should be
translated as "particular faith i.e. Catholicism, Anglicanism, etc."
within the global concept of Christianity; as magic is a belief
system (within the global concept of wizarding). She was talking
about both of those belief systems in her response.
Rowling is very animated in the video about this belief system
description. She should be. It is a hot spot for her personally and
for Warner Brothers financially.
If Rowling had wished to deny *any* Christian motive, this would have
been the perfect opportunity to do so. Oprah wasn't asking questions
randomly; the interview was the culmination of topics they had
reviewed and approved.
She could have said: "I did not write Harry Potter with any intention
of promoting Christianity; the repeated Christian themes were
impossible to /not/ have been in the books."
Instead we hear "not trying to convert" and not "pushing"...a subset
of the Christian faith (Anglican, etc).
Ms, Rowling, the brightest witch <writer> of her time? :) No lies were
told; but no truths fully exposed?
VD
> Ok, let's stop confusing the movies with the books.
It makes no difference to the Subject of this thread whether we are
considering the books or the movies. I quote myself once again: "Once
you remove Rowling's Christianity, and her admitted use of it in
delivering the HP books, then you are allowed any conjecture
whatsoever as you have here".
"Again, this is the fundamental difference in our approaches. I stand
by mine since it is prescribed and subscribed by the author herself."
IOW, there is no value in rehashing either your position on this or
mine or any discussions that accrue from them.
> Now to your observation about the Granger's house. It is meaningless.
> In the first place, I never asserted that Hermione was Jewish. I
> merely stated that it could not be ruled out.
I clearly stated that "I saw nothing that would indicate that she was
Jewish."
> So the fact that there is no menorah on her mantlepiece is
> completely irrelevant to me; it *still* doesn't rule anything out
> AND Hermione's religion is not important anyway.
All religious beliefs would be important to this discussion regarding
Rowling, the Gringotts as Jews and similar topics.
We are standing on two sides of different tables.
Draco Malfoy
> DRACO MALFOY:
>
>>> She has other, similar, subversions of
>>>cliche that are better. Dumbledore, for instance, is not just the
>>>cliched "slightly eccentric genius" of popular fiction. Instead the
>>> "few words" of his start of term speech indicate that he is not so
>>> much "eccentric" as completely barking mad.
>
>>I know where you copy n pasted that from, careful.
>
> Not copied. Not pasted. If I have inadvertently written the same thing
> as someone else, I apologize. Wait. No I don't. Why should I? Great
> minds think alike.
The mind that originally wrote that stuff was 12 yoa. lol
>>This post is like soooooooo many I have read over the years from those
>>silly HP forums stacked to the gills with pre-adolescent BS.
>
> Yes, it's a fair cop. I am eleven years old. Well spotted.
OK, 11, I missed it by a year.
>>If you are Jewish, don't play baseball, that would be strike 3.
>
> Huh? This doesn't make any sense. You are mixing your metaphors. Or
> mixing them up at least.
FYI Jews and baseball don't mix. It is a sport as many sports are
outside of the Jewish athletic capacity.
> You tell someone "don't play poker" when their bluff fails, because
> bluffing is an essential part of poker. But you don't tell somebody to
> not play baseball when they get three strikes. Everybody gets three
> strikes in baseball from time to time. It is part of the game.
"From time to time"? lol
> And what would being Jewish have to do with it? Would I get a smaller
> strike zone or something? That hardly seems fair.
Sheesh.
> Anyway, I don't have three strikes. It's more like 70 Not Out.
>
> Moving on to the argument you are trying to make with that link, as I
> understand it your reasoning must go something like this:
>
> 1. Despite the fact that the Warner brothers were themselves Jewish,
> Warner Bros. was willing to make cartoons with Jewish stereotypes in
> order to make more money.
Historical fact.
> 2. Therefore Warner Bros. today must also be willing to make films
> with (rather extreme) stereotypes about money loving goblin-like Jews,
> if it makes them more money.
You betcha.
> 3. And therefore, the depiction of goblins in the films as being
> bankers must be anti-Semitic stereotypes designed to make money for a
> studio founded by and still run by Jews.
Considering that they are and that Potter has made over 6 billion $$$,
duh
> 4. Therefore Harry Potter is bad...
Nope.
> because JKR allowed Warner Bros.
> (which is operated largely by Jews) to depict her goblin bankers as
> stereotypical money grubbing Jews....
She started it, they didn't.
> in order to make more money for
> money grubbing Jews. And stereotypes are bad, therefore Harry Potter
> is bad.
Reeaaaaaaachinnnnnnggggggg...........projecting........
> But I suppose it is not COMPLETELY impossible. After all, Harry Potter
> makes a LOT of money. We're not just talking truckloads of money here.
> We are talking big container ships full of it.
>
> And who doesn't like money? So I guess it is not COMPLETELY impossible
> that a Jewish run studio would insert offensive Jewish stereotypes in
> a film, if that is what the people want and were willing to pay for
> it.
What a surprise.
> It does however seem pretty unlikely. Pretty damn unlikely. In the
> first place, why would anybody think that is what people want? There
> doesn't appear to be a lot of demand for that sort of thing.
Unlikely only to you.
> In the second place, Warner Bros. did not know that the Harry Potter
> would translate into a billion dollar franchise when they made the
> first film. A popular book does not automatically turn into a popular
> film series.
They wouldn't have bought into a loser on purpose.
> Thirdly, this just does not sound like something a modern corporation
> would do. Why would they? Surely there has to be a better way to make
> money.
OK, we're through for now.
Slip back into your X-Box or wtfever you came and get back to me when
you have an adult version of reality.
Draco Malfoy
> In Rowling's interview *transcript* with Oprah, she claimed:
>
> *Oprah:* "While Jo may have millions of fans around the world, she
> also has her critics. Some have labeled Harry Potter as being too
> dark and frightening for children. There have been religious critics
> who have accused the books of promoting witchcraft, and some have
> even campaigned for the books to be banned from schools. Jo says she
> wasn't trying to make a religious statement when she wrote the
> books" [that she was not trying to convert people to Christianity]
>
> *Rowling:* "No, no, I am not. I'm not pushing any belief system here,"
> she says. "Although there is a lot of Christian imagery in the books.
> That's undeniable. But that's an allusion to a belief system in which
> I was raised."
>
> Go to 13:00 to 15:15
>
> http://video.the-leaky-cauldron.org/video/1629
>
> Notice how Rowling uses the term "belief system" which should be
> translated as "particular faith i.e. Catholicism, Anglicanism, etc."
> within the global concept of Christianity; as magic is a belief
> system (within the global concept of wizarding). She was talking
> about both of those belief systems in her response.
You and I fundamentally disagree about Rowling's character. I see her
as a closet forger, a well rehearsed liar, and unrepentant for both.
This entire Oprah interview was sooooooo staged, phony and worthless
as to be, er, worthless. You think either Rowling or W-B are gonna put
her out in front of millions of Oprah viewers without control?
VD
No, My dear Draco, the control we agree. The control supports and
enhances my argument that Ms. Rowling could, and did, carefully choose
her words and in doing so, chose not to reject her Christian
underpinnings. She danced an elaborate dance. As you say. Rehearsed.
VD
> They wouldn't have bought into a loser on purpose.
>
>> Thirdly, this just does not sound like something a modern corporation
>> would do. Why would they? Surely there has to be a better way to make
>> money.
>
> OK, we're through for now.
>
> Slip back into your X-Box or wtfever you came and get back to me when
> you have an adult version of reality.
I believe what my sordid friend Mr. Malfoy is attempting to relate is
that Usenet requires that posters follow the subject e.g. Gringotts
And Jews in this case. Under the typical www.Harrypotteretc.com
protocol, starting an entirely new thread is a practical
impossibility. On Usenet, if you wish to deviate from the OP, you can
do so, start your own thread.
If you do not do so, you may face criticism :)
Mackenzie
> You and I fundamentally disagree about Rowling's character. I see her
> as a closet forger, a well rehearsed liar, and unrepentant for both.
Closet forger and where do you come off with that?
Deevo
> On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 21:23:10 +0800, Deevo wrote:
>> Oh, and by the way Mr Deevo was my father. :)
>
> Useful information?
Obviously a wasted attempt at humour to someone who is unable to grasp the
concept.
> Instead of making personal attacks on Mr. Malfoy, why not engage the
> thread with useful information that fall under the subject being
> discussed?
I prefer not to feed the trolls thank you, I'll happily leave you to your
allegedly useful discussion.
SPT
It was an okay troll, I guess. Strong start, weak finish. 6/10. The
Gringott's coat of arms was a nice touch.
Draco Malfoy
The fact that Rowling never admitted to plagiarizing The Legend Of Rah
And The Muggles with many some common themes and visuals from Neil
Gaiman's 1990 comic book character Tim Hunter of Books of Magic.
<http://images.google.com/images?q=Tim+Hunter+of+Books+of+Magic&ie=UTF-8&biw=1024&bih=528>
Draco Malfoy
> The
> Gringott's coat of arms was a nice touch.
Speaking of coats, stay warm, Sunday will bring sub-zeo weather for
you.
SPT
What is this? An attempt at cyber-bullying by means of IP trace?
Awesome! And I thought your trolling had run out of steam at the end.
But you were just saving the best trolls for your big finale, weren't
you? You sly dog.
Well, this sort of performance merits a reward. I am increasing your
troll score from 6/10 up to 8/10. Oh, and take 30 house points for the
best played troll this castle has seen for many a year.
>Gringott's coat of arms
BTW, for the record, the 'J's' which you purport to see in the
Gringotts coat of arms are cursive 'G's'.
For Gringotts, just to make the connection perfectly obvious.
Draco Malfoy
> On Jan 27, 2:31�pm, Draco Malfoy
> <DROPdraco.mal...@countermail.comCAPITALLETTERS> wrote:
>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2011 09:14:50 -0800 (PST), SPT wrote:
>>> The
>>> Gringott's coat of arms was a nice touch.
>>
>> Speaking of coats, stay warm, Sunday will bring sub-zeo weather for
>> you.
>> --
>> The fans rightly adore me !https://twitter.com/TomFelton
>
> What is this? An attempt at cyber-bullying by means of IP trace?
Sorry, no more time for immature kiddies.
*PLONK*
VD
Fine analogy, Mackenzie (Ms or Mr.?); one that brings us steam around
to the never ending Christian underpinnings of Ms. Rowling.
Draco Malfoy
For someone who has spent a dozen or more years of her life putting
together an elaborate plan through the writing of a book that is all
about Christian history, teachings and theologies, she can be such a
disingenuous bitch.
VD
> On Thu, 27 Jan 2011 15:25:43 -0800 (PST), SPT wrote:
>
>> On Jan 27, 2:31�pm, Draco Malfoy
>> <DROPdraco.mal...@countermail.comCAPITALLETTERS> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2011 09:14:50 -0800 (PST), SPT wrote:
>>>> The
>>>> Gringott's coat of arms was a nice touch.
>>>
>>> Speaking of coats, stay warm, Sunday will bring sub-zeo weather for
>>> you.
>>> --
>>> The fans rightly adore me !https://twitter.com/TomFelton
>>
>> What is this? An attempt at cyber-bullying by means of IP trace?
>
> Sorry, no more time for immature kiddies.
>
> *PLONK*
Dear SPT,
For all practical purposes, Mr. Malfoy moderates alt.fan.harry-potter.
This may or may not have been his agendae but nonetheless, it is the
case. If the dozens of previous regular participants had not abandoned
this Usenet facility, Mr. Malfoy's rise to fame and power would have
been nonexistent.
The Wormtail is out of the grasp and things are what they are.
My suggestion is that you accumulate your hordes of historical active,
presently dormant participants and return with them in semi-force.
If not, then you are summarily discounted.
SPT
> On Thu, 27 Jan 2011 19:17:21 -0500, Draco Malfoy wrote:
> > On Thu, 27 Jan 2011 15:25:43 -0800 (PST), SPT wrote:
>
> Dear SPT,
>
> For all practical purposes, Mr. Malfoy moderates alt.fan.harry-potter.
> This may or may not have been his agendae but nonetheless, it is the
> case. If the dozens of previous regular participants had not abandoned
> this Usenet facility, Mr. Malfoy's rise to fame and power would have
> been nonexistent.
>
> The Wormtail is out of the grasp and things are what they are.
I don't think you can really be called a "moderator" of a newsgroup,
if you make troll posts. You would be something more like an
"immoderator".
But enthusiasm does count for something!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> My suggestion is that you accumulate your hordes of historical active,
> presently dormant participants and return with them in semi-force.
>
Sure, sure. I'll just send out the Red Arrow.
Once they have received the message, the Paladins of Usenet will start
to gather at the designated place. When their assembly is complete, in
say about two weeks, I will personally lead the force back to this
newsgroup using the hidden ways.
Look for my coming at first light on the seventeenth day.
And then the Horn of Helm Hammerhand shall sound in the Deep one last
time.
Arise! Arise writers of Potterdom! Forth! And fear no darkness!
Write now! Write now! Write to ruin and the world's ending!
Death!
DEATH !
DEEEEEEAAAAAAATH !!!!!
Wait a second. What did I do with the Red Arrow? Did I pack it in one
of those boxes? I didn't take it to the storage locker, did I?
I know I had it last summer, when I used it to clean some gunk from
under the refrigerator.... maybe it got stuck under there. Let me
check.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> If not, then you are summarily discounted.
Summary Discounting is prohibited by Article Six of the Geneva
Convention on Forum Warfare and Cyberargument.
I want to speak to a Red Cross representative. Or MDA, if that is more
convenient.
Sirius Black
> JK Rowling( author ofHarry Potter books) created a very thinly veiled
> caricature of Jews using the Gringotts banking goblins. Oversized
> noses, money handlers, undersized stature, ugly, controlling and
> generally despicable.
>
> http://images.google.com/images?q=gringotts+goblin&ie=UTF-8
>
> If there is any question about this determined and oft repeated racial
> slur, take a look at this.
>
> <http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100704145952/harrypotter/images/0/07/Blason_de_Gringotts.gif>
>
> I point out the use of the letter "J"; note in the lower curves in the
> symbol, the smaller, upper curves with the dragon's heads (the "J" is
> upside down) and in the "J" on each side of the gyroscope...or should
> I say "jewryscope"?
>
> Not to mention the "J"s in the black portion of the crest.
>
> Any Jews-goblins attend Hogwarts? Teach there? Jew janitors? Nada. Any
> other race of humans so ridiculously defamed by intentionally cruel
> characterizations, art or other?
>
> Sickening?
Looks like one acclaimed author agrees:
"I have to say, though, that my only quarrel with all the Potter films
is how they represent the Gringotts bankers. The bank’s goblins
sport large hooked noses and large ears, and look like a Nazi
stereotype of Jewish financiers. I cringed again in Deathly Hallows
Part 2 to see all those rows of Jewish-looking characters sitting on
high benches doing their sums as Harry and his friends passed
nervously below."
<http://feministspectator.blogspot.com/2011/07/harry-potter-and-deathly-hallows-part.html>
VD
Once the goblin-Jew connection is made, it’s easy to prove a dislike
for Jews. After all, Rowling’s distaste for goblins is quite evident.
Rubeus Hagrid – a character inclined to see the good in all people and
creatures – warns Harry about goblins in the first 100 pages of the
seven book series: “They’re goblins Harry. Clever as they come,
goblins, but not the most friendly of beasts.”
Deathly Hallows portrays goblins as impassionate neutrals in a
fundamentally moral war who ironically play something of a
Switzerland banking for the Nazis (Gringotts goblins). In Goblet of
Fire, goblins are more concerned with their money than the
terrorization of innocents (World Cup Dark Mark raid). And, as
judged by the only goblin we really get to know in detail – Griphook
– goblins are untrustworthy.
--
http://harrypotterforseekers.com/alchemy/alchemy.php
<http://www.rosecroixjournal.org/resources/documents/chymical_wedding.pdf>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/harrypotterforseekers/messages?o=1
Chan Welbourne
> Rubeus Hagrid - a character inclined to see the good in all people and
> creatures - warns Harry about goblins in the first 100 pages of the
> seven book series: "They're goblins Harry. Clever as they come,
> goblins, but not the most friendly of beasts.¨
> Deathly Hallows portrays goblins as impassionate neutrals in a
> fundamentally moral war who ironically play something of a
> Switzerland banking for the Nazis (Gringotts goblins). In Goblet of
> Fire, goblins are more concerned with their money than the
> terrorization of innocents (World Cup Dark Mark raid). And, as
> judged by the only goblin we really get to know in detail - Griphook
> - goblins are untrustworthy.
It's unfair to lump JKR as an anti-Zionist or Jew hater because she
borrows Tolkein's and others goblins from historical lit.
VD
The debate over whether the goblin character has its roots in
anti-Semitism is wholly unaligned with Rowling’s professed views on
Jews. In 2004, Ms. Rowling visited a Holocaust Museum and compared
the hated “mudblood” and “half-blood” terms used in Harry Potter with
the anti-Semitic propaganda of the Nazis: “If you think this is
far-fetched, look at some of the real charts the Nazis used to show
what constituted Aryan or Jewish blood.”
Ms. Rowling has also gone on record saying that her evil character —
Lord Voldemort — is modeled in part off of Hitler. Both comments won
her comments of praise from Jewish organizations.
Chan Welbourne
I don't know if Nicholas Flamel is Jewish but he describes learning his
alchemy from a book of wisdom of “Abraham the Jew.” The Bible discusses
Abraham teaching mystical ideas to his children, then sending them
“east.” Regardless of Nicholas Flamel, the stories that are told are
consistent with the idea that the source of their mysticism comes from
Jewish wisdom. JKR knows this.
Sirius Black
Interestingly enough, the phrase avada kedavra is actually in Aramaic
and Hebrew. In Hebrew the phrase literally means “I will destroy as I
speak.” It’s the /only/ incantation in Harry Potter that isn’t based
on Greek or Latin.
I have no idea if this means anything or not. lol
VD
I would be surprised indeed to learn that Ms. Rowling is an
anti-Semite; that doesn’t seem consistent with the message of
tolerance that pervades the HP series.
But I would also be surprised if she didn’t recognize (or engineer)
the parallels between goblins and Jews. Some brief moral analysis of
the kind provided in previous books by Dumbledore with regard to the
Centaurs and Giants, or by Hermione with regard to the house elves, is
conspicuously absent in the latter chapters of the seventh book (post
Gringott’s).
Wilford Dumont
Just to clarify: Rowling is definitely not an antisemitic – that would
be a resentfully stupid statement from anyone who’s grasped the whole
pure-blood motive.
Precisely therefore is it striking to me, that (even) she feels
somewhere, that Jews are so distinctively different.
Chan Welbourne
So, we have:
- hook nosed
- good with money
- jewellers
- persecuted historically
- refuse to eat the same food as non-goblins (see the table scene in
Book 7)
- different set of customary laws regarding e.g property rights (again,
Book 7)
- urban (in the books they are concentrated in London)
Yep, it’s occurred to me to, independently of anything I’d read.
Rowling portrays the goblins as complicated, not evil. But the
parallels are slightly too close to be comfortable. :-?
Sirius Black
Regardless of the symbolism, the moral of the story was undoubtedly of
understanding ,tolerance and equal cohabitation with all peoples and
creatures.
but who knows… maybe it’s about the Jews.
Phil
> On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 02:17:49 -0500, Draco Malfoy wrote:
>
>> JK Rowling( author ofHarry Potter books) created a very thinly veiled
>> caricature of Jews using the Gringotts banking goblins. Oversized
>> noses, money handlers, undersized stature, ugly, controlling and
>> generally despicable.
>
> <http://feministspectator.blogspot.com/2011/07/harry-potter-and-deathly-hallows-part.html>
"feministspectator" ?
The worlds most whining self-indulgent, self-important, self-serving
parasites on society ? The "professional victims" ?
These will be the feminists who dream up 9/11 conspiracies and blame
jews in it, eh ?
Scuse me while I vomit.
Phil
>
> It's unfair to lump JKR as an anti-Zionist or Jew hater because she
> borrows Tolkein's and others goblins from historical lit.
>
>
Wouldn't bother, mate.
They're a pack of pompous drips.