An Appeal to Mark Merlino
Jim Arthur
What goes around comes around, Mark. There are those who know exactly
what you have done and what you enjoy. You and all those close to you,
and all those once close to you, know exactly what I mean. You're lucky
it's remained only rumor this long.
Stop holding your convention year after year, and make some effort to
repair the shit you've created. Please. For your sake, and for
others. What goes around comes around. Don't you realize that?
And if Mark doesn't, which one of you has the balls to step forward?
Elf Sternberg
In article <348858...@abac.com> Farlo <stan...@abac.com> writes:
>Where'd that come from?
I'm not sure, but from where I stand it seems to have come
well-deserved.
Elf
--
Elf Sternberg (e...@halcyon.com) / http://www.halcyon.com/elf
The God whom science recognizes must be a God of universal laws
exclusively, a God who does a wholesale, not a retail business.
He cannot accomodate His processes to the convenience of individuals.
- William James, The Varieties of Religious Experience, 1902
Farlo
Allen Kitchen wrote:
>
> Mark runs Confurence.
Oh. Much thanks Allen! >^_^<
>
> As for what others are po'd about, my secondhand understanding
> is he supposedly thinks "furry" means "sex".
Uh oh. That's a problem.
> I'll make up my own mind when I go this year.
It's going to be my first confurence, too.
> I know several furs, some artists, who refuse to return to Confurence as
> long as Mark Merlino runs it. I'm going there to have fun, not worry about
> politics.
Same here - fun is #1, politics doesn't rank on the horizon...
> I won't rub anyone's muzzle in my sexuality. I ask the same in
> return. We'll see how it goes...
Well, I purrsonally would like to be noticed by the ladies,
but i'm very shy in public ...
I'm sure that most everyone will behave themselves, tho.
Speaking of shyness, i'm bringing definately bring my "Dragoncam",
and maybe also my Kodak DC-40 digital camera.
CF9 is going to be fun!
--
Farlo m>*_*<m
Farlo's pages >>> Http://users.abac.com/Standard
Atara
Farlo wrote:
> CF9 is going to be fun!
Stop it. Yer makin' me jealous. =P <G>
]:=8) Atara
Allen Kitchen
Farlo <stan...@abac.com> wrote in article <348858...@abac.com>...
> HUH!??
>
> Where'd that come from?
>
Mark runs Confurence.
As for what others are po'd about, my secondhand understanding
is he supposedly thinks "furry" means "sex". I've been told by several
folks (else I'd discount it as hearsay.) I don't know if he is truly
trying to
turn the fandom into a big spoogefest or not. But that is what some furs
are worried about. That, and the supposed bad image it creates.
I'll make up my own mind when I go this year. Yes, there are
sensuous sides to being furry. But it is not the end all be all of
furriness.
I know several furs, some artists, who refuse to return to Confurence as
long as Mark Merlino runs it. I'm going there to have fun, not worry about
politics.
I won't rub anyone's muzzle in my sexuality. I ask the same in
return. We'll see how it goes...
Shockwave
Allen Kitchen
all...@blkbox.com
http://www.blkbox.com/~osprey/
Vixy
MMilam writes:
>
> Just two weeks ago, you and others here told me that flamewars against others or
> other groups of furs were not accepted. Since this "Mark Melino" thing has found
> some replies, i'm begin to question wheter any of what was said to me in the
> last month was not to slience me.
>
Hmmmmm... maybe I should check again just to make sure.
. . .
Well, nothing seems to have changed. The world is still
revolving around it's axis and Mathew Milam is _not_ at the
center of it.
Now if I were to speculate, the difference here is that
no one is making blanket accusations about every reader of
AFF nor of the entire Furry Fandom. The original post is
just a personal message to an individual followed by broad
appeal to who-knows. I know not the target individual nor
the author. Nothing disturbing about it being here though.
===========================================================
Victry 'Vixy' Hyzenthlay
___________________
/ \ _
)""""\___ | - - - - - - - - - - | |_\____
)----| |\-| Vivacious Vixen-II |-/| | |\
)____|___|===========================| """|_)
`----` \| http://www.cris.com/~Vixy/|/"""""
"""|"""""""/"""\"""""""|"""
Vixy{nospam}@- `=++++=" "=++++=' -hot;mail.com
FCFc2wAC-D+dH-M++P++R+T+++W+Z++Sf++RLEaC++nd++e++h+i+p+sf+
Doodles
[bunny looks around cross-eyed]
Vas ist los?
Would you mind taking this private and explaining to me just _what_ in
the nine names of Buddah you speak of? Just remove the cheezies from my
e-mail address.
Unca Spooge, boggled.
no one in particular
MMilam wrote:
>
> In article <348882...@PSAMTHISyahoo.com>, Atara says...
> other groups of furs were not accepted. Since this "Mark Melino" thing has found
> some replies, i'm begin to question wheter any of what was said to me in the
> last month was not to slience me.
>
> (New email in a little while...)
Gotta say I agree here as far as flame wars go. This is going
to threaten to bring back the whole "ConFurence 8/Ed Kline's Letter"
bullshit
from a while back. This is the last thing we need. Ed Kline made some
first-hand observations and that's fine. And some others have too. Some
believe that the talk of second-hand acts can be dismissed as heresay,
but the fact is that a large enough number of people have claimed that
the whole thing is attracting people who make no bones about being
interested soley for sex and not for anthropomorphics to merit serious
consideration. If this is solely a matter of Mr. Merlino's handling
of the situation, then fine, but take it up in e-mail or postal mail.
It has been said that this person ignores such concerns in private such
that public airing is necessary as a last ditch effort. Given the
go-around
last time, it seems he either ignored the public comment and flames,
or did something and it is not apparent. I do not know either way. All
I do know is that this has to stop before everyone ends up at the
bleachers and we hear nothing but the chirping of crickets and the
slopping of spam in a.f.f.
I myself plan on hosting a convention someday and make the
promise that any adult behavior allowed will be sanctioned and held
in the night hours for adults only. Creation did this in NYC in 89
when they had the Trek actors do a cabaret of their own performances
which was uncensored. Adult artwork would be restricted to one area.
On-site obscene behavior would not be allowed. What happens elsewhere
is not in my control. If ConFurence is truly ending up badly, and
no one in charge is listening or acting, then perhaps those who are
against the behavior in question can organize their own competing
convention with controls from the start. But beginning the flamewar
again isn't going to help.
-Wayd Wolf, who's had enough of this...
Curtis Family
Pardon me, who are you and what have you done for Furry Fandom?
Mark created and hosts the longest running convention for our genre. Mark
is not perfect, but neither am I and neither are you.
And what is with this "You know what you've done" crap? Wasn't that the
title of a cheap horror movie a few years back?
This childish "he's so bad" crap is what makes us look like a bunch of
arrested adolescents.
Extremely
Mike Curtis
SHANDA FANTASY ARTS
Jim Arthur <ja...@mort.com> wrote in article <348858...@sixteen.com>...
Lisa Jennings
Farlo wrote:
> Allen Kitchen wrote:
> > Mark runs Confurence.
> Oh. Much thanks Allen! >^_^<
Maybe someone out there didn't know that little fact? *shrug*
> > As for what others are po'd about, my secondhand understanding
> > is he supposedly thinks "furry" means "sex".
> Uh oh. That's a problem.
A better explaination is that he feels the attraction of furry _for him_
is regarding its sexuality. This doesn't mean all 1200 attendees of the
con drops clothes and start an orgy in the lobby, so don't worry about
that.
> > I'll make up my own mind when I go this year.
> It's going to be my first confurence, too.
Oooh! Fresh toys! :3
> > I know several furs, some artists, who refuse to return to Confurence as
> > long as Mark Merlino runs it. I'm going there to have fun, not worry about
> > politics.
> Same here - fun is #1, politics doesn't rank on the horizon...
Well, _I_ am attending, and I've been there since CF0 if that helps your
mind any.
> > I won't rub anyone's muzzle in my sexuality. I ask the same in
> > return. We'll see how it goes...
> Well, I purrsonally would like to be noticed by the ladies,
> but i'm very shy in public ...
Hmm... time for the ermine to go a'dragon hunting? :3
> I'm sure that most everyone will behave themselves, tho.
They have in past years... but as it so often happens, it just takes a
couple of problem-children to make the rest of the group look bad.
Ignore them.
> Speaking of shyness, i'm bringing definately bring my "Dragoncam",
> and maybe also my Kodak DC-40 digital camera.
(Micole grins, remembering a certain 'cam' at CFE1 and the fun she
had...)
> CF9 is going to be fun!
I certainly _hope_ you have fun.... that is, after all, the point. No
matter _who_ is running it.
ermine
Farlo
Lisa Jennings wrote:
>
> > Allen Kitchen wrote:
> > > Mark runs Confurence.
Nope. I didn't - so it was odd to see the original post, to say the
least.
>
> A better explaination is that he feels the attraction of furry _for him_
> is regarding its sexuality.
Oh. *Shrug* Entitled to his opinion, like anybody else.
As long as he's not cramming it down my throat, i'll be fine.
>
> Oooh! Fresh toys! :3
>Grin - I imagine that I should be worried<
>What will befall the little dragon? Stay tuned...<
>... till Post CF9 ... <
>
> Well, _I_ am attending, and I've been there since CF0 if that helps your
> mind any.
*Nodnod*
>
> Hmm... time for the ermine to go a'dragon hunting? :3
*Nodnod* Please do ...
I'd really like to meet you and many of the others here!
>
> > I'm sure that most everyone will behave themselves, tho.
>
> They have in past years... but as it so often happens, it just takes a
> couple of problem-children to make the rest of the group look bad.
> Ignore them.
I will - unless they're fun, i'm generally kinda tolerant.
(Sorta like Admiral-ly Understanding).
> > CF9 is going to be fun!
>
> I certainly _hope_ you have fun.... that is, after all, the point. No
> matter _who_ is running it.
Thank you!
--
Farlo m>*_*<m
Farlo's pages >>> Http://users.abac.com/Standard
My E-MAIL FILTER will route mail with "FUR" in the subject
to my priority e-mail folder.
Current items in my KILL FILTER:
There are no items in my kill filter.
jag...@netcom.com
Jim Arthur <ja...@mort.com> wrote:
> What goes around comes around, Mark. There are those who know exactly
> what you have done and what you enjoy. You and all those close to you,
> and all those once close to you, know exactly what I mean. You're lucky
> it's remained only rumor this long.
>
> Stop holding your convention year after year, and make some effort to
> repair the shit you've created. Please. For your sake, and for
> others. What goes around comes around. Don't you realize that?
>
> And if Mark doesn't, which one of you has the balls to step forward?
First off, I am not weighing in on ANY side of this debate, which has
been discussed before, NEVER to any conclusion, since there is no solid
evidence. Having said that...
When speaking publically about things that may be considered bad or
possibly that might be construed as violating certain laws or principles,
be certain that you have solid, verifiable evidence to back up those
claims. If you cannot do that, then I would suggest looking up the
definitions of "libel" and "slander".
If you want to discuss a possible problem or complaint, then it had better
be made either via e-mail, or by US mail. If unsubtantiated claims are
made in a public forum, then you might be opening up yourself to legal
actions by the person or group you are attempting to malign.
If you want to use vague attacks to go after unsubstantiated rumours,
don't do it in a public forum. All that does is push an agenda, and
attempt to sway people who do not know the facts with possibly false
propaganda. Get verifiable facts and evidence, and then you can proceed.
--
Glen Wooten
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| primary: jag...@netcom.com | secondary: glen....@fanciful.org |
_____________________________________________________________________
| Terrie's web page: http://users.aol.com/amperprodx/littlepaw.html |
_____________________________________________________________________
Rainshadow
My sense for obscure english references picked up something in that fake email
address just now... "Morte 'd Arthur" is the original title of John Dunne's
(is that right?) classic english (as in way old) literature piece about
King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table, the one that is considered
to be the first written record of the King Arthur legend... methinks this is
the same bloke who posted as "rm...@dada.net" or whatever, the one Richard
de Wylfin recognized as a pun...
So whoever this dude is, he's somewhat learned...
-Rain'
jag...@netcom.com
Jim Arthur <ja...@mort.com> wrote:
> What goes around comes around, Mark. There are those who know exactly
> what you have done and what you enjoy. You and all those close to you,
> and all those once close to you, know exactly what I mean. You're lucky
> it's remained only rumor this long.
>
> Stop holding your convention year after year, and make some effort to
> repair the shit you've created. Please. For your sake, and for
> others. What goes around comes around. Don't you realize that?
>
> And if Mark doesn't, which one of you has the balls to step forward?
First off, I am not weighing in on ANY side of this debate, which has
been discussed before, NEVER to any conclusion, since there is no solid
evidence. Having said that...
When speaking publically about things that may be considered bad or
possibly that might be construed as violating certain laws or principles,
be certain that you have solid, verifiable evidence to back up those
claims. If you cannot do that, then I would suggest looking up the
definitions of "libel" and "slander".
If you want to discuss a possible problem or complaint, then it had better
be made either via e-mail, or by US mail. If unsubtantiated claims are
made in a public forum, then you might be opening up yourself to legal
actions by the person or group you are attempting to malign.
If you want to use vague attacks to go after unsubstantiated rumours, don't
do it in a public forum. All that does is push an agenda, and attempt to
sway people who do not know the facts with propaganda. Get verifiable
Captain Packrat
On 6 Dec 1997 08:39:00 -0700, Doodles <doo...@cheezies.primenet.com>
wrote:
lots stuff snipped.
> Just remove the cheezies from my e-mail address.
Captain sneaks up and helps himself to the cheezies. ;)
.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
| Captain Packrat |
| (Captain on FurryMUCK and FurToonia) |
| |
| Fur Central ---> http://www.personal.isat.com/captpackrat/ |
| Plush Central ---> http://www.personal.isat.com/captpackrat/plush/ |
| |
| Furry Code 1.2 (available from Fur Central) |
| FRM/R4 A+++ C>+ D++ H+++ M+++ P++++ R+ T++++ W Z++>+++ |
| Sm+ RLCT* a cn++ d- e+ f++++ h+ iwf+++ |
| |
| If you're furry and you know it, Hug the Mouse! |
| |
| O. .O |
| ==V== |
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Gadd
Jim Arthur <ja...@mort.com> wrote:
>What goes around comes around, Mark. There are those who know exactly
>what you have done and what you enjoy. You and all those close to you,
>and all those once close to you, know exactly what I mean. You're lucky
>it's remained only rumor this long.
>Stop holding your convention year after year, and make some effort to
>repair the shit you've created. Please. For your sake, and for
>others. What goes around comes around. Don't you realize that?
>And if Mark doesn't, which one of you has the balls to step forward?
Starting a little early this year, aren't we?
I reckon good on you Mark for holding Confurence - otherwise I'd be
staying in a hotel in LA for 4 days for no particular reason, which
seems silly.
rans...@au-au.extern.ucsd.edu (Rainshadow) wrote:
>> Jim Arthur <ja...@mort.com> wrote in article <348858...@sixteen.com>...
>My sense for obscure english references picked up something in that fake email
>address just now... "Morte 'd Arthur" is the original title of John Dunne's
>(is that right?)
It's by Mallory, based mainly on 12th century French sources.
> classic english (as in way old) literature piece about
>King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table, the one that is considered
>to be the first written record of the King Arthur legend... methinks this is
>the same bloke who posted as "rm...@dada.net" or whatever, the one Richard
>de Wylfin recognized as a pun...
>So whoever this dude is, he's somewhat learned...
--
Tim Gadd
Hobart, Tasmania
Change 'northcom' to 'southcom' in my address
jag...@netcom.com
MMilam wrote:
> In article <jaguar1E...@netcom.com>, jag...@netcom.com says...
> >
> >If you want to discuss a possible problem or complaint, then it had better
> >be made either via e-mail, or by US mail. If unsubtantiated claims are
> >made in a public forum, then you might be opening up yourself to legal
> >actions by the person or group you are attempting to malign.
>
> lega action. Some idiot tried to get my isp to shut my account down over a
> stupid trick i pulled. I'm off there now, but not because of what the person in
> question did. Luckly the president explained the policy of his company is to not
> interfer with discussions, especially flamed ones.
No one is talking about you. I am pointing out the legal ramifications
because in previous incarnations of this arguement, there have been
libelous & slanderous statements made (by people who are known to a large
portion of the fandom - NOT a possible faked name). I am merely pointing
out that if people weigh in in the "Let's Get Mark!" side with a lot of
rumours & made-up statements, they are asking for trouble.
> >If you want to use vague attacks to go after unsubstantiated rumours, don't
> >do it in a public forum.
>
> Maybe he isn't making a rumor or an attack without cause, maybe he's right.
> Don't always dismiss that side of the story yet.
Since no solid evidence has ever been presented of actions specific
people have made, then it's all rumours and/or lies. If someone (as
paraphrased from a previous statement) has the balls to come forward and
present some evidence of criminal wrong-doings, then let that person come
forward. Evidence that will stand up in a court of law, not "I was told
by someone who said someone saw..."
> >Get verifiable facts and evidence, and then you can proceed.
>
> Strange, I had verifiable facts and evidence.
Please see previous statement...
Mark Atwood
Jim Arthur <ja...@mort.com> writes:
< VAGUE AND MYSTERIOUS ACCUSATIONS SNIPPED >
Damn, someone started the annual CF flamewar a month early.
Hey, "Jim", only the immature, the deranged, the `net-kooks and the
stupidly criminal do public "I know what you did" blackmail sort of
things. If you have an accusation, make it. If you don't, shut your
hole.
I'd plonk you, except I don't quite believe "Jim Arthur <ja...@mort.com>"
is a real account.
I don't know Mark, I enjoy ConFurence, and this LONG running complaint
(sans any real accusations (other than "He's icky!")) got REALLY old
over 5 years ago.
--
Mark Atwood | Thank you gentlemen, you are everything we have come to
z...@ampersand.com | expect from years of government training. -- MIB Zed
WalksFar
On Sun, 7 Dec 1997 00:27:09 GMT, jag...@netcom.com wrote:
>Jim Arthur <ja...@mort.com> wrote:
>> What goes around comes around, Mark. There are those who know exactly
>> what you have done and what you enjoy. You and all those close to you,
>> and all those once close to you, know exactly what I mean. You're lucky
>> it's remained only rumor this long.
>>
>> Stop holding your convention year after year, and make some effort to
>> repair the shit you've created. Please. For your sake, and for
>> others. What goes around comes around. Don't you realize that?
>>
>> And if Mark doesn't, which one of you has the balls to step forward?
>
>First off, I am not weighing in on ANY side of this debate, which has
>been discussed before, NEVER to any conclusion, since there is no solid
>evidence. Having said that...
>
>When speaking publically about things that may be considered bad or
>possibly that might be construed as violating certain laws or principles,
>be certain that you have solid, verifiable evidence to back up those
>claims. If you cannot do that, then I would suggest looking up the
>definitions of "libel" and "slander".
>
>If you want to discuss a possible problem or complaint, then it had better
>be made either via e-mail, or by US mail. If unsubtantiated claims are
>made in a public forum, then you might be opening up yourself to legal
>actions by the person or group you are attempting to malign.
>
>If you want to use vague attacks to go after unsubstantiated rumours, don't
>do it in a public forum. All that does is push an agenda, and attempt to
>sway people who do not know the facts with propaganda. Get verifiable
>facts and evidence, and then you can proceed.
>
>--
>Glen Wooten
"Who is this arthur person, anyway? He speaks in vague terms
of things he will not allude to. Unless he wishes to be clear as to
his meanings, then let him stop his discourse! We have enough to do,
all of us who LIKE ConFurence and want it to continue and get better,
and do not need him!"
WalksFar, curious as to why the diatribes against Mark . . . .
Rivercoon
>What goes around comes around, Mark. There are those who know exactly
what
>you have done and what you enjoy. You and all those close to you,
and all
>those once close to you, know exactly what I mean. You're lucky
it's remained
>only rumor this long.
Stop holding your convention year after year, and make
>some effort to
repair the shit you've created. Please. For your sake, and
>for
others. What goes around comes around. Don't you realize that?
And if
>Mark doesn't, which one of you has the balls to step forward?
If your intention is really to send Mark a message rather than just rant about
him in public I suggest emailing him directly or posting this were he is likely
to see it. He does not regularly read AFF, if at all.
CalAnim8R
>> As for what others are po'd about, my secondhand >understanding>is he
I'd discount it as hearsay.) I >don't know if he is truly>trying to turn the
fandom into a big >spoogefest or not. But that is what some furs are worried
about. >That, and the supposed bad image it creates<<
*snip*
A Normal's Introduction to Furry
I was at LosCon in Los Angeles just a few weeks ago. Browsing the party
board, I noticed there was only one 'furry' party advertised; the one that was
sponsored by ConFurence's Mark Merlino and Rod O'Riley. 'Food, Fun and
Furries!' promised the flier. So I decided to take a look, to see what being
furry is all about.
The door to the party was closed, so I opened it and entered. I looked around
the room. There was a table with pamphlets and publishings, along with binders
of artwork by various popular furry artists. I love cartoons, let's open the
books and see.
Gaah! There's a lot of pornography and X-rated artwork in those books, like
maybe 70%. There was no warning label on the covers; it was just like, haha,
surprise! And in one of the books there was animal pedophilia, bestiality and
Disney lions copulating. So this is what furry's all about.
I looked at some more pamphlets and was confused by one small green one. It
said "Live the Dream: Upcoming Events". It was about 'Alternative Lifestyles'.
Group marriages, Threesomes, and multiple relationships." Hmm. So 'being
furry' is about multiple relationships and group marriage.
There was a sort of stapled handout that was supposed to define what 'furry'
means as well. "A collection of words about the furry phenomenon" it said,
along with "This may shed some light on what we furries are about, and perhaps
peak the interest of some...to explore further." "Enclosed is a flyer for the
media convention/social gathering that Rod and I have been directing for
years.", meaning, ConFurence.
The flyer went on, "Here is a definition of 'furry', taken from a T-shirt..."
"4. A lifestyle revolving around a love and emulation of furries."
There were some other articles in the flyer about 'modern totems' and 'breaking
the news to your parents'. There was the first page of a story titled "The One
Lioness", apparently based on Merlino's role-playing character. As a footnote,
Merlino notes that he has since met many fellow role-players in person through
this muck, and "currently reside in our home".
So, based on these pamphlets, flyers and collections of artwork that was
representing what furry is all about, I came to the conclusion that
A. Furry is about 'alternative lifestyles'.
but more predominantly,
B. Furry is about sex.
What conclusions would any norm reach after this?
I know the one I've reached...stay away from ConFurence.
Only because I'm educated about the fandom can I not say "Furries must all be
perverts."
-An Animator who likes some furry stuff.
P.S. Sorry if this post turns out to be flameworthy. You can flame me in
private if you wish. It's just that it's too bad that Mark Merlino has made
'furry' out to be so squicky, and I'm wishing he'd stop.
Allen Kitchen
Lisa Jennings <NoS...@MyPlace.com> wrote in article
<348A2631...@MyPlace.com>...
> Farlo wrote:
> > > As for what others are po'd about, my secondhand
understanding
> > > is he supposedly thinks "furry" means "sex".
> > Uh oh. That's a problem.
>
> A better explaination is that he feels the attraction of furry _for him_
> is regarding its sexuality. This doesn't mean all 1200 attendees of the
> con drops clothes and start an orgy in the lobby, so don't worry about
> that.
Well, we shall see. The wife (who is mundane and not attending)
is VERY worried about me going to this. See what one person trumpeting
can do? How many other average furs can't make it because of one
furson trying to make his opinion become that of the con?
> > > I'll make up my own mind when I go this year.
> > It's going to be my first confurence, too.
> Oooh! Fresh toys! :3
I'm hardly fresh. I'm normally quite polite. :)
But within certain restrictions, I can be a fun wolftoy. :)
> Well, _I_ am attending, and I've been there since CF0 if that helps your
> mind any.
I've seen your art milady. And I hope to kiss your paw while
there. But it does little to ease my worries as I do not know you
personally.
But I'm still going, as my Recon team in CF8 reported nothing squicky
either.
> I certainly _hope_ you have fun.... that is, after all, the point. No
> matter _who_ is running it.
yes, that is the entire objective :)
> ermine
Vinson Mink
Furry = Sex...
Um, can anyone point out an actual occurence of either of us actually saying
this, to anyone?
Furry = Furry.
ROR
Wondering about people blatantly insulting his life mate...
Vinson Mink
To Mike Curtis:
Thanks Mike.
ROR
*hug*
D. A. Graf
Vinson Mink <vin...@netcom.com> wrote:
: Furry = Sex...
: Furry = Furry.
: ROR
ConDor 97. A late night panel. Mark Merlino stated: We all emulate
animals to explore our sexuality. Direct quotation.
Witnessed by: Jeff Ferris, James Birdsall, Fred Patten, Robert Torres,
Michele Gault, Michael Danaher (sp?), Jefferson Swycaffer, and myself.
The other three or four who were at the panel I don't know as I had never
seen them before.
Fred Patten commented to me that you, Rod, came up to him and told him
that Mark never said that. How would *you* know? *You* were *not* on the
panel or even in the room that night. Fred was, as were the people I
listed. This was witnessed.
The reporter from Marie Claire also gained this same impression when she
was at SDCC and spoke to me extensively. I've read the article, I know I
wasn't quoted or any of what I said was used. However, when she asked me
how I was introduced to the fur fandom, I told her: 1984 I was at a fur
party Mark threw, came with Terrie Smith. Mark handed to me a book full
of sexual illos and said: This is what the fandom is all about. The
reporter looked poleaxed, then leaned in and told me that Mark had just
done the same to her. Handed her a few books filled with pin up to real
hardcore work, stating: This is what the fandom is.
That's two. Others have stated the same thing has happened to them. Then
there is the posting from the person who went to the fur party at Loscon
this year. Another witness.
So, he has done this, very recently. It has been witnessed.
NOTE: Any flames and hate email or pmail will be ignored and deleted.
--Tygger
--
******************************************************************************
gr...@primenet.com
*** Fantasy, Dark Fantasy, Horror, Erotica Artist/Cartoonist***
*** Checkout the revisions at http://www.furnation.com/tygger ***
*** Creator of Guardian Knights heroic/dark fantasy/horror comic series***
******************************************************************************
"`Cause its easier to try
Than to prove it can't be done.
And its easier to stay
Than to turn around and run."
Blue World, The Moody Blues
real address is in signature
I've been around anthro fandom for 10 years now. Someone threatens a
lawsuit every couple of weeks somewhere for something.
I only know of one that actually was legally filed. That was many years
ago, and it never got to court as there was insufficient evidence.
90% of usenet is inaccurate information or outright slander. Less than
1% of it is actually news. Many newsreaders respond by saying "posting
article" when you say something. This one time really WAS news, but now
only a moderated newsgroup can be called such.
AFF, know it or not, is rather heavily moderated by three people that I
know of, but for the most part they just kill spam postings (ever notice
there aren't any?) Occasionally a whole thread will disappear, but it's
relatively rare. the huzzah server will not accept cancel messages and
it's interesting to compare sometimes.
Flames only cause as much damage as you want to let them. It's like
putting a "beware of dog" sign in your front yard and then hanging a
picture of a doberman on your front door.
real address is in signature
Well, that post neither says specifically what is wrong, nor suggests
anything to correct it.
It did start a flame thread though, as messages like that usually do.
Really productive! like everything on usenet.
real address is in signature
"I know what you did last summer" is actually in theaters now.
My guess is that that vague posting resulted from something on one of
the mucks. It sounded liek the person writing the post had never even
been to one of the conventions!
The email address seems to be real though - it may be going to /dev/null
but it isn't bouncing.
Jim Doolittle
In article <66k5u0$1nr$1...@newsd-113.bryant.webtv.net>,
dontspa...@webtv.net (real address is in signature) wrote:
> AFF, know it or not, is rather heavily moderated by three people that I
> know of, but for the most part they just kill spam postings (ever notice
> there aren't any?) Occasionally a whole thread will disappear, but it's
> relatively rare. the huzzah server will not accept cancel messages and
> it's interesting to compare sometimes.
Quite frankly, this doesn't bother me in the least. I don't care for spam
postings, and am quite glad to be rid of them. I haven't seen any
instances of major threads dissapearing without warning, and I don't
expect it to happen in the future. It's all about trust...
-Jim, who wouldn't mind seeing a.f.f become officially moderated. Too much
hassle, though...
--
Jim Doolittle
dool...@uiuc.edu
gi...@betterbox.net
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/doolittl
PGP 5.0 public key available
Curtis Family
CalAnim8R <cala...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19971208052...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
>
> A Normal's Introduction to Furry
>
> I was at LosCon in Los Angeles just a few weeks ago. Browsing the party
> board, I noticed there was only one 'furry' party advertised; the one
that was
> sponsored by ConFurence's Mark Merlino and Rod O'Riley. 'Food, Fun and
> Furries!' promised the flier. So I decided to take a look, to see what
being
> furry is all about.
>
> The door to the party was closed, so I opened it and entered.
So you entered of your own free will.
I looked around
> the room. There was a table with pamphlets and publishings, along with
binders
> of artwork by various popular furry artists. I love cartoons, let's open
the
> books and see.
>
> Gaah! There's a lot of pornography and X-rated artwork in those books,
like
> maybe 70%. There was no warning label on the covers; it was just like,
haha,
> surprise! And in one of the books there was animal pedophilia,
bestiality and
> Disney lions copulating. So this is what furry's all about.
You know, I can go to my local Hastings and pick up a Playboy or Hustler.
It has naked women in it.
Gee, I guess all Hastings sells is pornography.
>
> I looked at some more pamphlets and was confused by one small green one.
It
> said "Live the Dream: Upcoming Events". It was about 'Alternative
Lifestyles'.
> Group marriages, Threesomes, and multiple relationships." Hmm. So
'being
> furry' is about multiple relationships and group marriage.
This story is beginning to remind me of the five blind men and the
elephant......
You know, I think you went in that room looking for something and found it.
Did anyone twist your arm to open those books? Plus did you read ALL of
them or just the "tittilating" parts. Yes, sex is a large subject in
furrydom. It isn't the only one. Most black books have a subject at the
first stating the theme. I think you found the books you wanted to look at
most.
> I know the one I've reached...stay away from ConFurence.
>
Maybe YOU should stay away from Confurence..... Go instead to a Trek con
and read some slash fiction.
> Only because I'm educated about the fandom can I not say "Furries must
all be
> perverts."
>
> -An Animator who likes some furry stuff.
>
> P.S. Sorry if this post turns out to be flameworthy. You can flame me
in
> private if you wish. It's just that it's too bad that Mark Merlino has
made
> 'furry' out to be so squicky, and I'm wishing he'd stop.
>
I am too much of a gentleman to say what I think of this Nazi post on aff.
Allen Kitchen
Curtis Family <shan...@cyberback.com> wrote in article
<01bd04e2$3bc61840$df6d0fd0@shanda>...
> CalAnim8R <cala...@aol.com> wrote in article
> <19971208052...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
>
> > A Normal's Introduction to Furry
> > Gaah! There's a lot of pornography and X-rated artwork in those books,
> like
> > maybe 70%. There was no warning label on the covers; it was just like,
> haha,
> > surprise! And in one of the books there was animal pedophilia,
> bestiality and
> > Disney lions copulating. So this is what furry's all about.
>
> You know, I can go to my local Hastings and pick up a Playboy or Hustler.
> It has naked women in it.
>
> Gee, I guess all Hastings sells is pornography.
To be fair, at least when you open a Hustler, you aren't barraged
with images of mickey mouse and barney. If someone got such a mag,
I imagine furious wouldn't even begin to describe the purchaser. I'm
confident CalAnim8r felt a similar shock. She/he likes cartoons, and
isn't looking for sex, but has it "rammed down the eyesockets."
I'm no prude. And erotica (and even some spooge) have their
place. But it is NOT what ALL furrydom is about. And it is courtesy
(even smart) to give some kind of warning. What if some senator's
daughter had wandered in there, looked at the cartoons, then told daddy
what she saw? Don't we have enough trouble?
Be careful when you claim to represent all the fandom. There is
not one among you who speaks for me. And I'd hate to see the genre
I've grown to love get ruined by selfish people, no matter what their
cause. Cal hung around and looked, so the shock couldn't have been
too great. At the same time there is no need for "Stealth spooge." If
you are brave enough to show your work, then show it. There is no
need to waylay folks.
> I am too much of a gentleman to say what I think of this Nazi post on
aff.
And frankly, I'm a bit surprised to hear the word 'nazi' tossed
about from you sir. My opinion of you is higher than that...
> Mike Curtis
> SHANDA FANTASY ARTS
Allen Kitchen
all...@blkbox.com
http://www.blkbox.com/~osprey/
Farlo
real address is in signature wrote:
>
> AFF, know it or not, is rather heavily moderated by three people that I
> know of, but for the most part they just kill spam postings (ever notice
> there aren't any?)
I hadn't, but, now that it's been mentioned
... Hurray for the moderators!
... Hurray for AFF!
Good job!
--
Farlo m>*_*<m
Urban Fey Dragon
Adding "FUR" to the subject line will route replies
to my Priority folder.
Patrick C. Jones
cala...@aol.com (CalAnim8R) wrote:
>*snip*
>A Normal's Introduction to Furry
*Buzzsaw!*
>So, based on these pamphlets, flyers and collections of artwork that was
>representing what furry is all about, I came to the conclusion that
>A. Furry is about 'alternative lifestyles'.
> but more predominantly,
>B. Furry is about sex.
[Hmm. "Lifestyling" and "Porno". Ya know, when I see only the extreme
interpretations on a subject, I go looking for the moderates. They're
usually bound and gagged in a corner somewhere :p///3 ]
>P.S. Sorry if this post turns out to be flameworthy. You can flame me in
>private if you wish. It's just that it's too bad that Mark Merlino has made
>'furry' out to be so squicky, and I'm wishing he'd stop.
[No such luck, my automatic CO2 flame-extinguisher is working
perf...<FOOOOOOSSSSHHH!!!!!!!!>]
Vinson Mink
In article <66k57q$1m2$1...@newsd-113.bryant.webtv.net>,
Button I'm fond of... "UseNet is like Tetris for those of us who still
remember how to read..."
ROR
Timothy Fay
Jim Doolittle wrote:
>
> In article <66k5u0$1nr$1...@newsd-113.bryant.webtv.net>,
> dontspa...@webtv.net (real address is in signature) wrote:
>
> > Occasionally a whole thread will disappear, but it's
> > relatively rare. the huzzah server will not accept cancel messages and
> > it's interesting to compare sometimes.
>
> Quite frankly, this doesn't bother me in the least. I don't care for spam
> postings, and am quite glad to be rid of them. I haven't seen any
> instances of major threads dissapearing without warning, and I don't
> expect it to happen in the future. It's all about trust...
>
> -Jim, who wouldn't mind seeing a.f.f become officially moderated. Too much
> hassle, though...
Yeah. The biggest hassle is finding someone neutral enough that
everyone
could trust.
As much of a pain as this newsgroup can be, it's still better that it is
un-moderated (except for the spam, and I'm not sure I'm entirely
comfortable
with that). Any form of 'moderation' after the fact is simply
censorship,
and we've had enough of that sort of talk from Sen. Exon and the U.S.
Congress, thank you very much.
-Tim
---
Remove the "delete..this.." in my address to reply.
http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/m279/fayxx001/
no one in particular
Allen Kitchen wrote:
>
> Lisa Jennings <NoS...@MyPlace.com> wrote in article
> <348A2631...@MyPlace.com>...
> > Farlo wrote:
> > > > As for what others are po'd about, my secondhand
> understanding
> > > > is he supposedly thinks "furry" means "sex".
> > > Uh oh. That's a problem.
> >
> > A better explaination is that he feels the attraction of furry _for him_
> > is regarding its sexuality. This doesn't mean all 1200 attendees of the
> > con drops clothes and start an orgy in the lobby, so don't worry about
> > that.
>
> Well, we shall see. The wife (who is mundane and not attending)
> is VERY worried about me going to this. See what one person trumpeting
> can do? How many other average furs can't make it because of one
> furson trying to make his opinion become that of the con?
>
> > > > I'll make up my own mind when I go this year.
> > > It's going to be my first confurence, too.
> > Oooh! Fresh toys! :3
>
> I'm hardly fresh. I'm normally quite polite. :)
> But within certain restrictions, I can be a fun wolftoy. :)
<VOICE STYLE:KEVIN MEANY>You should be ashamed of yourself!
Not brining your wife and saying such things.</VOICE>
Seriously though, there are some things I don't need to
picture. And that whole thing I accidentally started has degenerated
into a discussion of the physics of flying female anatomy and...
Oh, man, where's my Prozac?!
-Wayd Wolf, who needs a nap...
>
> Shockwave
> Allen Kitchen
no one in particular
Farlo wrote:
>
> real address is in signature wrote:
> >
> > AFF, know it or not, is rather heavily moderated by three people that I
> > know of, but for the most part they just kill spam postings (ever notice
> > there aren't any?)
>
> I hadn't, but, now that it's been mentioned
>
> ... Hurray for the moderators!
> ... Hurray for AFF!
>
> Good job!
>
> --
> Farlo m>*_*<m
More like de-spammed at olsy-na.com and fysh.org and so on.
Furs seem to be heaviest there, so less spam is observed in propogation.
Not a bad deal. We owe these people a lot.
-Wayd Wolf
Leah Verre
>
> You know, I think you went in that room looking for something and found
it.
> Did anyone twist your arm to open those books? Plus did you read ALL of
> them or just the "tittilating" parts. Yes, sex is a large subject in
> furrydom. It isn't the only one. Most black books have a subject at
the
> first stating the theme. I think you found the books you wanted to look
at
> most.
> I am too much of a gentleman to say what I think of this Nazi post on
aff.
>
>
> Mike Curtis
> SHANDA FANTASY ARTS
> >
>
I found nothing "Naziesque" about the post above. I have no idea where you
drew that particular conclusion.
Many people, Mike ... MANY people have had similar experiences as the one
the poster was referring to.
WalksFar
On 6 Dec 1997 02:08:48 GMT, "Allen Kitchen" <allen...@blkbox.com>
wrote:
>
>
>Farlo <stan...@abac.com> wrote in article <348858...@abac.com>...
>> HUH!??
>>
>> Where'd that come from?
>>
>
> Mark runs Confurence.
>
> As for what others are po'd about, my secondhand understanding
>is he supposedly thinks "furry" means "sex". I've been told by several
>folks (else I'd discount it as hearsay.) I don't know if he is truly
>trying to
>turn the fandom into a big spoogefest or not. But that is what some furs
>are worried about. That, and the supposed bad image it creates.
> I'll make up my own mind when I go this year. Yes, there are
>sensuous sides to being furry. But it is not the end all be all of
>furriness.
>I know several furs, some artists, who refuse to return to Confurence as
>long as Mark Merlino runs it. I'm going there to have fun, not worry about
>politics.
> I won't rub anyone's muzzle in my sexuality. I ask the same in
>return. We'll see how it goes...
>
>Shockwave
"Good for you! I know exactly what they insinuate and have
seen a bit of that at various times. I go to have fun, peruse art,
and have fun with my friends . . . Some of whom I cannot get together
with at any other time."
WalksFar . . . .
WalksFar
On 9 Dec 1997 20:37:04 GMT, "Curtis Family" <shan...@cyberback.com>
wrote:
>
>
>CalAnim8R <cala...@aol.com> wrote in article
><19971208052...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
>
>>
>> A Normal's Introduction to Furry
>>
>> I was at LosCon in Los Angeles just a few weeks ago. Browsing the party
>> board, I noticed there was only one 'furry' party advertised; the one
>that was
>> sponsored by ConFurence's Mark Merlino and Rod O'Riley. 'Food, Fun and
>> Furries!' promised the flier. So I decided to take a look, to see what
>being
>> furry is all about.
>>
>> The door to the party was closed, so I opened it and entered.
>
>So you entered of your own free will.
>
> I looked around
>> the room. There was a table with pamphlets and publishings, along with
>binders
>> of artwork by various popular furry artists. I love cartoons, let's open
>the
>> books and see.
>>
>> Gaah! There's a lot of pornography and X-rated artwork in those books,
>like
>> maybe 70%. There was no warning label on the covers; it was just like,
>haha,
>> surprise! And in one of the books there was animal pedophilia,
>bestiality and
>> Disney lions copulating. So this is what furry's all about.
>
>You know, I can go to my local Hastings and pick up a Playboy or Hustler.
>It has naked women in it.
>
>Gee, I guess all Hastings sells is pornography.
>
>>
>> So, based on these pamphlets, flyers and collections of artwork that was
>> representing what furry is all about, I came to the conclusion that
>> A. Furry is about 'alternative lifestyles'.
>> but more predominantly,
>> B. Furry is about sex.
>>
>> What conclusions would any norm reach after this?
>
>You know, I think you went in that room looking for something and found it.
>Did anyone twist your arm to open those books? Plus did you read ALL of
>them or just the "tittilating" parts. Yes, sex is a large subject in
>furrydom. It isn't the only one. Most black books have a subject at the
>first stating the theme. I think you found the books you wanted to look at
>most.
>
>
>> I know the one I've reached...stay away from ConFurence.
>>
>
> Maybe YOU should stay away from Confurence..... Go instead to a Trek con
>and read some slash fiction.
>
>
>> Only because I'm educated about the fandom can I not say "Furries must
>all be
>> perverts."
>>
>> -An Animator who likes some furry stuff.
>>
>> P.S. Sorry if this post turns out to be flameworthy. You can flame me
>in
>> private if you wish. It's just that it's too bad that Mark Merlino has
>made
>> 'furry' out to be so squicky, and I'm wishing he'd stop.
>>
>
>I am too much of a gentleman to say what I think of this Nazi post on aff.
>
>
>Mike Curtis
>SHANDA FANTASY ARTS
>>
It seems to me we are doing exactly what we should not be
doing. ConFurence is what you make of it. These attacks on Merlino
and ConFurence serve only to bring it down and destroy what the fans
enjoy most about anthropomorphism. If one goes to ConFurence seeking
pornography, i am sure they will find it. If they go to meet friends
and enjoy themselves, I believe they will. If they go to learn
anthropomorphic art, costuming, animation, I KNOW they will!
We are who we are. Confurence has problems. Name a Fan
Convention that does NOT! That is best handled behind the scenes
taking the fan's interests and concerns into consideration. We bring
to conFurence our own perceptions and feelings. let us not poison
others because something does not particularly fit our "ways."
Walksfar, in agreement with Mike Curtis . . . .
WalksFar
On 9 Dec 1997 11:48:00 -0700, "D. A. Graf"
<REMOVEC...@TOEMAILREPLY.primenet.com> wrote:
"Hi, Sis!" WalksFar waves, then adds, "I have to agree. I
was around when incidences like this happened and have to agree that
Mark seems to push only the one side of anthropomorphism."
WalksFar, who has heard and seen enough before hand . . . .
Dale Farmer
WalksFar (walk...@psnw.com) wrote:
: On 9 Dec 1997 20:37:04 GMT, "Curtis Family" <shan...@cyberback.com>
: wrote:
: >CalAnim8R <cala...@aol.com> wrote in article
: ><19971208052...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
: >> A Normal's Introduction to Furry
: >>
: >> I was at LosCon in Los Angeles just a few weeks ago. Browsing the party
: >> board, I noticed there was only one 'furry' party advertised; the one
: >that was
: >> sponsored by ConFurence's Mark Merlino and Rod O'Riley. 'Food, Fun and
: >> Furries!' promised the flier. So I decided to take a look, to see what
: >being
: >> furry is all about.
: >> The door to the party was closed, so I opened it and entered.
: >So you entered of your own free will.
fans I know make a practice of visiting *every* party listed at a con.
: > (snip)
: >> Gaah! There's a lot of pornography and X-rated artwork in those books,
: >like
: >> maybe 70%. There was no warning label on the covers; it was just like,
: >>
: >> So, based on these pamphlets, flyers and collections of artwork that was
: >> representing what furry is all about, I came to the conclusion that
: >> A. Furry is about 'alternative lifestyles'.
: >> but more predominantly,
: >> B. Furry is about sex.
: >>
: >> What conclusions would any norm reach after this?
: >
: >You know, I think you went in that room looking for something and found it.
: >Did anyone twist your arm to open those books? Plus did you read ALL of
: >them or just the "tittilating" parts. Yes, sex is a large subject in
: >furrydom. It isn't the only one. Most black books have a subject at the
: >first stating the theme. I think you found the books you wanted to look at
: >most.
The random person walking into that party *has no expectations beyond what
was on the party flyer*. They don't have the background to even expect
that the black book laying there has a subject that they need to check
first, they look around the room and see people drawing/looking in the
books, and think "Ohh! pretty pictures!". Then they see some BDSM spooge
explosion, and BOOM, first impression has been formed. furry==kinky sex.
Now every mention of furry fandom will get put through that filter, and
slant applied. That person carrying a box of hardware for the art show
is, in that persons' mind, carrying bondage gear. And every person
wearing a collar, every PDA, everyone wearing revealing clothing, and
a black book or a furry themed tshirt will re-enforce that furry==sex
first impression.
So if you are holding a public "furry party" keep the X rated
stuff under control. Especially since if that random person in an
minor, letting them see that stuff *is* against the law.
: It seems to me we are doing exactly what we should not be
: doing. ConFurence is what you make of it. These attacks on Merlino
: and ConFurence serve only to bring it down and destroy what the fans
: enjoy most about anthropomorphism. If one goes to ConFurence seeking
: pornography, i am sure they will find it. If they go to meet friends
: and enjoy themselves, I believe they will. If they go to learn
: anthropomorphic art, costuming, animation, I KNOW they will!
:
: We are who we are. Confurence has problems. Name a Fan
: Convention that does NOT! That is best handled behind the scenes
: taking the fan's interests and concerns into consideration. We bring
: to conFurence our own perceptions and feelings. let us not poison
: others because something does not particularly fit our "ways."
:
: Walksfar, in agreement with Mike Curtis . . . .
The problem is that far too many attendees of confurence (I won't
call them furry fans, because that's not the reason that they came
to the con.) Don't have the minimal social grace needed to know
when it is time to *TAKE IT TO YOUR ROOM*! I don't begrudge anyone
the desire to indulge in whatever floats their boat, but please,
please, take it out of the public parts of the hotel and put it
in your room, behind a locked door. I don't think that is asking
too much of anybody.
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dale Farmer Da...@access.digex.net Personal opinion. Sudbury, Mass.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
matthew_milam
On Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:24:48 -0800, dontspa...@webtv.net (real
address is in signature) wrote:
>I've been around anthro fandom for 10 years now. Someone threatens a
>lawsuit every couple of weeks somewhere for something.
I recently got one thrown at me from DLS, course i called the
president and told me it was not in his policy to enforce fights
between people on the net. Only if i was spamming (For those that are
thinking about it, I've changed providers).
>
>I only know of one that actually was legally filed. That was many years
>ago, and it never got to court as there was insufficient evidence.
Most lawsuits at Mcdonald's are like that.
>90% of usenet is inaccurate information or outright slander. Less than
>1% of it is actually news.
Where can i find that one percent, then i could possibly find people
to talk to rather than people who get mad at click of a button.
> Many newsreaders respond by saying "posting
>article" when you say something. This one time really WAS news, but now
>only a moderated newsgroup can be called such.
>
JMS was forced to leave his "moderated" newsgroup twice, I dont' know
if tha'ts neccessary good either.
>AFF, know it or not, is rather heavily moderated by three people that I
>know of, but for the most part they just kill spam postings (ever notice
>there aren't any?)
Those same three people make a point of wanting to call your ISP if
you are too intense with a subject. It is good the spam postings are
not in this newsgroup, however i have questions for the moderators of
this newsgroup which can be taken to email (For the heads of this
newsgroup that are listening, email me).
>>Flames only cause as much damage as you want to let them. It's like
>putting a "beware of dog" sign in your front yard and then hanging a
>picture of a doberman on your front door.
Some people turn subjects into flames in order to have them attract
less attenion.
Matthew Milam
mmilam@(delete the no spam)enteract.com
Matthew Milam
>
>As much of a pain as this newsgroup can be, it's still better that it is
>un-moderated (except for the spam, and I'm not sure I'm entirely
>comfortable
>with that). Any form of 'moderation' after the fact is simply
>censorship,
>and we've had enough of that sort of talk from Sen. Exon and the U.S.
>Congress, thank you very much.
>
>-Tim
>---
The Goverment doesn't have to censor anyone. People can do it as well.
--Matthew
cal...@goodnet.com
"D. A. Graf" <REMOVEC...@TOEMAILREPLY.primenet.com> wrote:
> Vinson Mink <vin...@netcom.com> wrote:
> : Furry = Sex...
> : Um, can anyone point out an actual occurence of either of us actually
> : saying this, to anyone?
> ConDor 97. A late night panel. Mark Merlino stated: We all emulate
> animals to explore our sexuality. Direct quotation.
I can confirm a similar case. At VegasCon 1, several years ago,
ConFurence had an "outreach" table where they were hawking CF merchandise
--- and, more importantly as regards this matter, a number of "black
books". To their credit, the ones with porn were marked as such, but at
the time I was still enough of a prude to blush hot red with shock at
things like (among dozens of other things) a Terrie Smith pic of a black
stallion masturbating in the snow. Extremely well- done, artistically,
but it really made me wonder if the fandom was something I wanted to get
involved with. Had I not first met the fandom through comics --- notably
Space Ark, Cerebus, and Red Shetland --- CF's table would have scared me
off. I mean LITERALLY scared me off. Thanks to my earlier exposure to
non-sex material, fortunately, I knew better than to assume that's all
there was to it, and today I don't have a problem with viewing such
material now that I've acclimatized myself to it.
Unfortunately, there are an awful lot of people in fandom who either
don't recall how *they* once reacted to this sort of thing, or if they
never had a problem with it they refuse to even bother trying to
understand how *other* people might feel about it. As far as they're
concerned, by and large, if a newcomer to the fandom is squicked by the
notion of a giant vixen masturbating on a skyscraper while ripping out
her own tonsils, well, that's HIS problem and the fandom is better off
without such "fascist prudes".
I also have to mention that I'm shocked at seeing Mike Curtis
responding to CalAnim8r using the term "Nazi"...having been gone from AFF
for a while, Cal's letter seemed to be a frank and up-front statement of
a very real human being's reaction to this sort of material when exposed
to it for the first time, and Mike bit Cal's head off for it. That wasn't
necessary, and it was quite close- minded. I haven't read the rest of my
catch-up posts yet, but I do hope Mike has since apologized, as I would
expect a man of his character to recognize and amend such an error.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
cal...@goodnet.com
In article <348f645a...@news.psnw.com>,
walk...@psnw.com (WalksFar) wrote:
> It seems to me we are doing exactly what we should not be
> doing. ConFurence is what you make of it. These attacks on Merlino
> and ConFurence serve only to bring it down and destroy what the fans
> enjoy most about anthropomorphism.
CalAnim8r's post was in no way construable as an "attack". It was, in
fact, the bald-faced truth. As for CF8, which I attended (as I attended
CF4-7, and shall attend CF9), I personally was treated to the sight of
someone in full-torso bondage gear, ball gag, and leash being "walked" by
someone else.
In the main lobby, next to the elevators.
Even in California, where I used to live, this sort of behavior --- in
public --- is rare to the point where any "norm" would be left to assume
they were "with the convention". Which, of course, they were.
Back after CF7, there was a firestorm of controversy concerning similar
behavior from some attendees. Mark Merlino's "policy" in response to this
was contained in one line in the CF8 program book...which, of course, was
only distributed *at* CF8. No policy on the matter was made public or
solidified prior to this. Mark's policy was, simply, to "tone it down a
bit". The result was that things got worse. This has been a steady trend
for CF since CF4, and some would say earlier; a lax attitude towards lewd
public behavior (a crime in most areas) has led to more blatant displays
every following year, and now we literally have "leather bondage queens"
strutting around as though they own the convention.
As a result, ConFurence IS being damaged...many people will NOT attend
because of this matter. This is called "voting with your feet", which is
what many diehard supporters of CF's lax attitude have suggested --- and
yet, many of those same supporters seem to scream "fascist" or "Nazi"
when someone DOES vote with their feet and dare to say why. *Exactly*
this happened between Mike Curtis and CalAnim8r. Cal got squicked by a CF
party, chose to stay away based on her experience, and Mike calls her a
Nazi. I put this down to a momentary lapse on his part, because that
*isn't* the Mike Curtis I know and admire. But there *are* a number who
are quite free and regular in the dispensing of extremism to defend the
indefensible.
> If one goes to ConFurence seeking
> pornography, i am sure they will find it. If they go to meet friends
> and enjoy themselves, I believe they will. If they go to learn
> anthropomorphic art, costuming, animation, I KNOW they will!
Certainly. Despite my experience with the leather lads, I truly enjoy CF
and will continue to attend for as long as I can. This, however, is
because I've been involved in the fandom long enough to be able to
largely ignore just about anything I find offensive. I can take it with
the requisite grain of salt because I've had time to get used to it.
Newbies, by their very newness, have NOT have that time. It should
surprise no one that a significant number of newcomers to the fandom, who
find it via CF, may well flee it.
> We are who we are. Confurence has problems. Name a Fan
> Convention that does NOT! That is best handled behind the scenes
> taking the fan's interests and concerns into consideration.
The problem here is that, after literally YEARS of agitation from fans on
this matter, their interests and concerns are NOT being considered. At
all. They are, in fact, being rebuffed as "hateful" by many, while the
con staff themselves remain largely silent or quietly supportive of such
activities.
Because CF is not addressing these concerns, the concerned are going
elsewhere for their conventions where at all possible. ZonieCon,
f'rinstance, which will be coming up next May, was made possible because
of the niche created by CF's alienation of some 100+ California/Arizona
furry fans. We are catering to that group, to provide them with a
convention they don't have to cross the nation to get to. 100+ is a small
fraction of CF's attendance, of course...but it is enough to be concerned
about.
> We bring to conFurence our own perceptions and feelings. let us not poison
> others because something does not particularly fit our "ways."
Which is an attitude, quite frankly, that I have seen from *both* sides
of the CF fence.
Farlo
Vixy wrote:
>
> Heads of AFF? Wooooww... someone is actually in charge here?
> So when did it all change? ;)
I was unananimousilly elected "El Presidente for *life*".
(Just assumed that *everyfur* knew that already...)
Actually, there are some nice furs who do alot of work
updatastream somewhere, and they strip the spam out of AFF
at our end. Somefur told me where, but I forgot.
I'm still grateful, tho.
--
Farlo m>*_*<m
Farlo
Vixy wrote:
>
> ** OOOoooo! Looky looky! **
> X-No-Archive: Yes <----------**{We can even do it to ourselves! :D}**
Ah, c'mon Vixy - be nice! m>@_-<m
etho...@flash.net
In Article<3490ab7b...@snews.zippo.com>, <mmi...@enteract.com> write:
> On Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:22:02 -0600, cal...@goodnet.com wrote:
>
> >In article <348f645a...@news.psnw.com>,
> > walk...@psnw.com (WalksFar) wrote:
> >> It seems to me we are doing exactly what we should not be
> >> doing. ConFurence is what you make of it. These attacks on Merlino
> >> and ConFurence serve only to bring it down and destroy what the fans
> >> enjoy most about anthropomorphism.
> >
> >CalAnim8r's post was in no way construable as an "attack". It was, in
> >fact, the bald-faced truth.
>
> The Truth in this case is truth of opinon.
[excellent points by Matt trimmed for space]
> But isn't part of being furry more of a freedom to express yourslef
> without the constraints that society brings. Or am i mistaken?
I don't think it's an inherent attitude of fur-fandom, but it's a
good one that should be encouraged, within reason.
> >
> > As a result, ConFurence IS being damaged..
>
> No, I think furries have lost their furryness and have returned to
> humans. The result is this discussion.
I think it's just people choosing what they want to do and where
they want to do it. As long as no-one's harrassing or abusing anyone,
let the situation evolve as it will.
> >.many people will NOT attend
> >because of this matter.
>
> Many people don't accept different people, and often those same "many"
> people are just as werid and out-of-whack as the very ones they fire
> on.
An excellent point, as many muckers who remember the Plain
Vanilla Furry society can attest.
> >This is called "voting with your feet", which is
> >what many diehard supporters of CF's lax attitude have suggested --- and
> >yet, many of those same supporters seem to scream "fascist" or "Nazi"
> >when someone DOES vote with their feet and dare to say why.
>
> I would like to know the whole "voting with your feet" concept (Email
> is below)
Basically, what he is describing is that people who don't
want to be somewhere or attend some event...don't. And that's fine. CF
will evolve to suit the needs of the furries who go there, and vice versa.
Eric the .5b
Vixy
Matthew Milam <mmi...@enteract.com> wrote in article <3490272d...@snews.zippo.com>...
** OOOoooo! Looky looky! **
Path: furry.ao.net!news.fysh.org!news.lupine.com!zdc!szdc!super.zippo.com!newsp.zippo.com!sdrn
From: MMilam
Newsgroups: alt.fan.furry
Subject: Re: A Plan for Alt.fan.furry
Date: 24 Nov 1997 17:05:05 -0800
Organization: Super Zippo News Service [http://super.zippo.com]
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <65d881$4...@sdrn.zippo.com>
References: <01bcf90c$8e308700$8f301bc6@spgspare> <65cu06$64r$1...@chaos.ao.net>
<347A02...@nmt.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: p-017.newsdawg.com
X-No-Archive: Yes <----------**{We can even do it to ourselves! :D}**
Xref: furry.ao.net alt.fan.furry:29048
===========================================================
Victry 'Vixy' Hyzenthlay; who just do'ed it anyway! ;)
___________________
/ \ _
)""""\___ | - - - - - - - - - - | |_\____
)----| |\-| Vivacious Vixen-II |-/| | |\
)____|___|===========================| """|_)
`----` \| http://www.cris.com/~Vixy/|/"""""
"""|"""""""/"""\"""""""|"""
Vixy{nospam}@- `=++++=" "=++++=' -hot;mail.com
FCFc2wAC-D+dH-M++P++R+T+++W+Z++Sf++RLEaC++nd++e++h+i+p+sf+
Vixy
Matthew Milam wrote in article <34902556...@snews.zippo.com>...
> . . . It is good the spam postings are
> not in this newsgroup, however i have questions for the moderators of
> this newsgroup which can be taken to email (For the heads of this
> newsgroup that are listening, email me).
Heads of AFF? Wooooww... someone is actually in charge here?
So when did it all change? ;)
===========================================================
Victry 'Vixy' Hyzenthlay
Matthew Milam
> ___________________
> / \ _
> )""""\___ | - - - - - - - - - - | |_\____
> )----| |\-| Vivacious Vixen-II |-/| | |\
> )____|___|===========================| """|_)
> `----` \| http://www.cris.com/~Vixy/|/"""""
> """|"""""""/"""\"""""""|"""
> Vixy{nospam}@- `=++++=" "=++++=' -hot;mail.com
>FCFc2wAC-D+dH-M++P++R+T+++W+Z++Sf++RLEaC++nd++e++h+i+p+sf+
>
Vixy, I would rather you emailed me this rather than bring it to the
group. The more you flame the more they ignore you (I wish i could say
the same for some who have replied and contributed after you). My
email is below, take it or leave it.
--Matthew
Matthew Milam
On Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:22:02 -0600, cal...@goodnet.com wrote:
>In article <348f645a...@news.psnw.com>,
> walk...@psnw.com (WalksFar) wrote:
>> It seems to me we are doing exactly what we should not be
>> doing. ConFurence is what you make of it. These attacks on Merlino
>> and ConFurence serve only to bring it down and destroy what the fans
>> enjoy most about anthropomorphism.
>
>CalAnim8r's post was in no way construable as an "attack". It was, in
>fact, the bald-faced truth.
The Truth in this case is truth of opinon. In which someone claims
that ones opinon is the actual truth (Example: My muck subject). Let
us understand that Mark Melino is only a human being who's opinon
about furry happens to be different from the rest. To target him for
this opinon or actions that are brought upon this opinon is not only
immoral, but wrong. If some wish not to start fights over the simple
things, why start with this?.
Yes, I understand the press was brought there, but so what?. Some of
the press understand that their's more to things than what's at
Confurence. There are other ways and things to look for in the fandom,
maybe that wasn't his idea in the first place, but others can address
the fact that sex isn't the furry fandom itslef. If those others
don't, then this war with Mr. Melino will contiune and will be given
the same Anti-Christ treatment as Bill Gates, The Chairman of
Netscape, and a cast of thousands who have a large effect on people.
>s for CF8, which I attended (as I attended
>CF4-7, and shall attend CF9), I personally was treated to the sight of
>someone in full-torso bondage gear, ball gag, and leash being "walked" by
>someone else.
That is their decision.
> Even in California, where I used to live, this sort of behavior --- in
>public --- is rare to the point where any "norm" would be left to assume
>they were "with the convention". Which, of course, they were.
But why should you fear for your life if you don't even do it?
>
> Back after CF7, there was a firestorm of controversy concerning similar
>behavior from some attendees. Mark Merlino's "policy" in response to this
>was contained in one line in the CF8 program book...which, of course, was
>only distributed *at* CF8. No policy on the matter was made public or
>solidified prior to this. Mark's policy was, simply, to "tone it down a
>bit". The result was that things got worse.
Some people don't listen, others do.
>This has been a steady trend
>for CF since CF4, and some would say earlier; a lax attitude towards lewd
>public behavior (a crime in most areas) has led to more blatant displays
>every following year, and now we literally have "leather bondage queens"
>strutting around as though they own the convention.
But isn't part of being furry more of a freedom to express yourslef
without the constraints that society brings. Or am i mistaken?
>
> As a result, ConFurence IS being damaged..
No, I think furries have lost their furryness and have returned to
humans. The result is this discussion.
>.many people will NOT attend
>because of this matter.
Many people don't accept different people, and often those same "many"
people are just as werid and out-of-whack as the very ones they fire
on.
>This is called "voting with your feet", which is
>what many diehard supporters of CF's lax attitude have suggested --- and
>yet, many of those same supporters seem to scream "fascist" or "Nazi"
>when someone DOES vote with their feet and dare to say why.
I would like to know the whole "voting with your feet" concept (Email
is below)
>*Exactly*
>this happened between Mike Curtis and CalAnim8r. Cal got squicked by a CF
>party, chose to stay away based on her experience, and Mike calls her a
>Nazi. I put this down to a momentary lapse on his part, because that
>*isn't* the Mike Curtis I know and admire.
We all have a dark side, even i do, and occasinally it slips out and
gets me to say things i don't want to say. Mike Curtis probably had
that moment.
>But there *are* a number who
>are quite free and regular in the dispensing of extremism to defend the
>indefensible.
How far does that go?
>
>> If one goes to ConFurence seeking
>> pornography, i am sure they will find it. If they go to meet friends
>> and enjoy themselves, I believe they will. If they go to learn
>> anthropomorphic art, costuming, animation, I KNOW they will!
I think you lost me here.
>>Certainly. Despite my experience with the leather lads, I truly enjoy CF
>and will continue to attend for as long as I can. This, however, is
>because I've been involved in the fandom long enough to be able to
>largely ignore just about anything I find offensive. I can take it with
>the requisite grain of salt because I've had time to get used to it.
>Newbies, by their very newness, have NOT have that time. It should
>surprise no one that a significant number of newcomers to the fandom, who
>find it via CF, may well flee it.
You never know.
>
>> We are who we are. Confurence has problems. Name a Fan
>> Convention that does NOT! That is best handled behind the scenes
>> taking the fan's interests and concerns into consideration.
>
>The problem here is that, after literally YEARS of agitation from fans on
>this matter, their interests and concerns are NOT being considered. At
>all. They are, in fact, being rebuffed as "hateful" by many, while the
>con staff themselves remain largely silent or quietly supportive of such
>activities.
The same thing can be said about issue lated to furry-realted topics.
Such as the mucking part, which i was extremely mad at when it turned
out the adminstartors of both of them i was on were corrupt, idiotic,
people who had a ton of Yesmen to back them up. Bringing this to AFF i
figured i could find many who had fallen under that trap. But it
seemed that flaming was the only response they could give (Due to the
extreme nature of the post, and the fact many censor the darkness).
I've given up on that, but i still mention it because simlar incidents
like this come about. It is also why i still am on this group (Even if
few have killfiles because they figure i'm stupid).
>
> Because CF is not addressing these concerns, the concerned are going
>elsewhere for their conventions where at all possible.
CF won't fix the problems because too many don't care or are afriad.
This is the problem with any group, when one doesn't speak out against
another in a line of people, trouble begins.
>>> We bring to conFurence our own perceptions and feelings. let us not poison
>> others because something does not particularly fit our "ways."
>
>Which is an attitude, quite frankly, that I have seen from *both* sides
>of the CF fence.
Which i belive isn't so bad. The question is, can the fandom make
others do what others do? and if so, why should they?
--Matthew
Vixy
Matthew Milam <mmi...@enteract.com> wrote in article <3490aa13...@snews.zippo.com>...
> Vixy, I would rather you emailed me this rather than bring it to the
> group. The more you flame the more they ignore you (I wish i could say
> the same for some who have replied and contributed after you). My
> email is below, take it or leave it.
'They', Mathew? Have you gerbils in your pocket? Flies
on your wall? I'm still waiting for Email from YOU. My addy
is in my sig and if ya can't figure it out through all the
anti-spam inserts, just Email me and I'll send it to you
directly. ;)
===========================================================
Victry 'Vixy' Hyzenthlay
WalksFar
On Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:22:02 -0600, cal...@goodnet.com wrote:
>(snip)
>
> As a result, ConFurence IS being damaged...many people will NOT attend
>because of this matter. This is called "voting with your feet", which is
>what many diehard supporters of CF's lax attitude have suggested --- and
>yet, many of those same supporters seem to scream "fascist" or "Nazi"
>when someone DOES vote with their feet and dare to say why. *Exactly*
>this happened between Mike Curtis and CalAnim8r. Cal got squicked by a CF
>party, chose to stay away based on her experience, and Mike calls her a
>Nazi. I put this down to a momentary lapse on his part, because that
>*isn't* the Mike Curtis I know and admire. But there *are* a number who
>are quite free and regular in the dispensing of extremism to defend the
>indefensible.
>Certainly. Despite my experience with the leather lads, I truly enjoy CF
>and will continue to attend for as long as I can. This, however, is
>because I've been involved in the fandom long enough to be able to
>largely ignore just about anything I find offensive. I can take it with
>the requisite grain of salt because I've had time to get used to it.
>Newbies, by their very newness, have NOT have that time. It should
>surprise no one that a significant number of newcomers to the fandom, who
>find it via CF, may well flee it.
>The problem here is that, after literally YEARS of agitation from fans on
>this matter, their interests and concerns are NOT being considered. At
>all. They are, in fact, being rebuffed as "hateful" by many, while the
>con staff themselves remain largely silent or quietly supportive of such
>activities.
>
> Because CF is not addressing these concerns, the concerned are going
>elsewhere for their conventions where at all possible. ZonieCon,
>f'rinstance, which will be coming up next May, was made possible because
>of the niche created by CF's alienation of some 100+ California/Arizona
>furry fans. We are catering to that group, to provide them with a
>convention they don't have to cross the nation to get to. 100+ is a small
>fraction of CF's attendance, of course...but it is enough to be concerned
>about.
>Which is an attitude, quite frankly, that I have seen from *both* sides
>of the CF fence.
>
Your descriptions of what HAS occurred at ConFurence are
fairly on target. I have been disturned by some of the things I have
seen and heard. If it were not for the fact that some of the most
heated issues have been discussed, and hopefully dealt with, I would
not be considering attending. Because it looks like they ARE finally
being taken into consideration, I believe I may not be treated to some
of the lobby scenes i saw in the last two years. However, I am NOT
staying at the Buena Park Hotel, either. I have taken reservations
across the street just in case things are not "taken care of"
adequately . . . .
Matthew Milam
Your email does not exist, it belongs to someone else. Get another
hotmail or Four11 or something then.
--Matthew
Wanderer
Okay, *this* time, I respond (and Matthew, threatening someone with arrest
for wanting to bring you a dessert is *not* appropriate behaviour, no matter
what they told you at charm school. Miss Manners distinctly frowns upon
taking legal action against friendliness).
Matthew Milam wrote in message <3490ab7b...@snews.zippo.com>...
>On Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:22:02 -0600, cal...@goodnet.com wrote:
>
>>In article <348f645a...@news.psnw.com>,
>> walk...@psnw.com (WalksFar) wrote:
>>> It seems to me we are doing exactly what we should not be
>>> doing. ConFurence is what you make of it. These attacks on Merlino
>>> and ConFurence serve only to bring it down and destroy what the fans
>>> enjoy most about anthropomorphism.
>>
>>CalAnim8r's post was in no way construable as an "attack". It was, in
>>fact, the bald-faced truth.
>
>The Truth in this case is truth of opinon. In which someone claims
>that ones opinon is the actual truth (Example: My muck subject). Let
>us understand that Mark Melino is only a human being who's opinon
>about furry happens to be different from the rest. To target him for
>this opinon or actions that are brought upon this opinon is not only
>immoral, but wrong. If some wish not to start fights over the simple
>things, why start with this?.
advertised a party where you could "Meet the Fandom", that there *was* an
unmarked portfolio loaded with R-rated pictures where minors could get at
them, that Mark Merlino *has* been reported as saying "Furry is sex" by many
separate individuals. Precisely what, in this chain of concrete facts, is
opinion?
>
>Yes, I understand the press was brought there, but so what?. Some of
>the press understand that their's more to things than what's at
>Confurence. There are other ways and things to look for in the fandom,
>maybe that wasn't his idea in the first place, but others can address
>the fact that sex isn't the furry fandom itslef. If those others
>don't, then this war with Mr. Melino will contiune and will be given
>the same Anti-Christ treatment as Bill Gates, The Chairman of
>Netscape, and a cast of thousands who have a large effect on people.
today's market, that's just economic self-preservation. Now, which of the
following taglines would *you*, speaking just for yourself, find more
interesting?:
1.) ... and, finally, a cartoon convention comes to town to celebrate
animals in animation.
2.) ... and up next: Convention Chaos as a hotel party becomes an orgy.
Trish MacNeil has more ...
Second, as to "others" trying to address the fact that sex isn't all there
is to furry fandom ... what the hoo-hah do you think CalAnim8r was getting
at? He simply has a problem with Merlino holding a "Meet the Fandom" party
and filling the room with sexpics and spooge art, while ignoring the rest of
the fandom.
>
>
>>s for CF8, which I attended (as I attended
>>CF4-7, and shall attend CF9), I personally was treated to the sight of
>>someone in full-torso bondage gear, ball gag, and leash being "walked" by
>>someone else.
>
>That is their decision.
True. Unfortunately, they chose to parade their decision in front of people
who had *not* asked to be invited into this couple's private activities or
expressed an interest in bondage. In addition, they, as CF attendees, drew
attention to something which had no discernible attachment to
anthropomorphic animals (i.e., the harness was neither sulky nor dog and the
bondage boy was not wearing a muzzle of either sort). This causes people to
wonder why the gathering is called ConFurence instead of ConFinement ... as
well as start wondering what we're hiding behind closed room doors.
Finally, if you were the manager of the hotel, would you like the idea of
renting out a highly profitable room to people that were scaring off your
guests?
>
>> Even in California, where I used to live, this sort of behavior --- in
>>public --- is rare to the point where any "norm" would be left to assume
>>they were "with the convention". Which, of course, they were.
>
>But why should you fear for your life if you don't even do it?
I didn't see any mention in this post of "fear for my life", Matt. But he
does fear for the fandom, if we keep having people at our conventions who'll
scare off any new recruits.
Pretend for one moment that you know absolutely nothing about a fandom based
on anthropomorphic animals, Matt. You've never even heard the word,
"anthropomorphic", applied to anything outside Art History 101. You get a
flier that invites you to visit a party to meet people in something called,
"Furry Fandom". Curious, you go to the party and find a table full of
unmarked portfolios. You open them out of curiousity and discover that in
each one of these books is a different collection of sex acts. Bondage,
discipline, homosexuality, oral sex, and so on. All performed by cartoon
animals with huge genitalia, some of them recognisably patterned after
children's cartoon characters. Now, assuming you had never heard of
anything called "furry fandom" until this time, what would you honestly
believe "furry fandom" to be about? Especially if a person comes over to
you, shows you yet another sexpic portfolio, and says, "This is furry
fandom"? (Which, according to another part of this thread, Merlino likes to
do.)
>>
>> Back after CF7, there was a firestorm of controversy concerning similar
>>behavior from some attendees. Mark Merlino's "policy" in response to this
>>was contained in one line in the CF8 program book...which, of course, was
>>only distributed *at* CF8. No policy on the matter was made public or
>>solidified prior to this. Mark's policy was, simply, to "tone it down a
>>bit". The result was that things got worse.
>
>Some people don't listen, others do.
Oh, they listened, Matt. But if you were doing something I objected to,
that you liked, and you knew I wasn't going to do anything but complain,
would you stop doing it?
>
>>This has been a steady trend
>>for CF since CF4, and some would say earlier; a lax attitude towards lewd
>>public behavior (a crime in most areas) has led to more blatant displays
>>every following year, and now we literally have "leather bondage queens"
>>strutting around as though they own the convention.
>
>But isn't part of being furry more of a freedom to express yourslef
>without the constraints that society brings. Or am i mistaken?
Yes, Matt, you are mistaken. Skritching, cuddling and so forth are
permissible *with consenting partners*. The laws of society, as with the
laws governing a pride, a pack or a pod, must be adhered to. Just because
we like anthro animals doesn't mean we can make love in the middle of a
hotel lobby or introduce a 10-year-old child to the cinematic glory of
"Debbie Does Dallas". We are neither above nor outside the law.
>
>>
>> As a result, ConFurence IS being damaged..
>
>No, I think furries have lost their furryness and have returned to
>humans. The result is this discussion.
This discussion, Matt, is about accountability. Some individuals are using
ConFurence as a smokescreen. Without being involved in the fandom itself,
they arrive, squick the Mundanes with bondage and leather, and send any
complainants to the CF staff before pulling up their tents and moving on.
This is all about accountability, theirs, Matt Merlino's and ConFurence's,
for the repercussions of their actions. And that's the same in human and
animal societies both.
>
>>.many people will NOT attend
>>because of this matter.
>
>Many people don't accept different people, and often those same "many"
>people are just as werid and out-of-whack as the very ones they fire
>on.
And a few of us are comparatively "plain vanilla". Are you saying
heterosexuals don't belong in this fandom? If so, may I ask what your
preference is?
>
>>This is called "voting with your feet", which is
>>what many diehard supporters of CF's lax attitude have suggested --- and
>>yet, many of those same supporters seem to scream "fascist" or "Nazi"
>>when someone DOES vote with their feet and dare to say why.
>
>I would like to know the whole "voting with your feet" concept (Email
>is below)
I'll explain it here for any others that might need it. "Voting with your
feet" is the kind of voting people do when they don't go to something.
Whether it's a convention, a ballgame, a movie, or a party, if they don't
like it, they go somewhere else. This is generally referred to as "walking
out", so the result is called, "voting with your feet". In money-driven
situations, it's also called "voting with your pocketbook".
>
>>*Exactly*
>>this happened between Mike Curtis and CalAnim8r. Cal got squicked by a CF
>>party, chose to stay away based on her experience, and Mike calls her a
>>Nazi. I put this down to a momentary lapse on his part, because that
>>*isn't* the Mike Curtis I know and admire.
>
>We all have a dark side, even i do, and occasinally it slips out and
>gets me to say things i don't want to say. Mike Curtis probably had
>that moment.
No comment.
>
>>But there *are* a number who
>>are quite free and regular in the dispensing of extremism to defend the
>>indefensible.
>
>How far does that go?
Extremism? By definition, to extremes, some ridiculous.
>>
>>> If one goes to ConFurence seeking
>>> pornography, i am sure they will find it. If they go to meet friends
>>> and enjoy themselves, I believe they will. If they go to learn
>>> anthropomorphic art, costuming, animation, I KNOW they will!
>
>I think you lost me here.
That poster, whose attribution you removed with the original quotelist, was
saying, "There's no problem. If CalAnim8r found porn, he must've been
looking for it in the first place. The entire problem is his. It has
nothing to do with ConFurence". (See also the line, "pay no attention to
the man behind the curtain" ...)
>
>>>Certainly. Despite my experience with the leather lads, I truly enjoy CF
>>and will continue to attend for as long as I can. This, however, is
>>because I've been involved in the fandom long enough to be able to
>>largely ignore just about anything I find offensive. I can take it with
>>the requisite grain of salt because I've had time to get used to it.
>>Newbies, by their very newness, have NOT have that time. It should
>>surprise no one that a significant number of newcomers to the fandom, who
>>find it via CF, may well flee it.
>
>You never know.
True. We'll attract a lot of people who want to be beaten up, chained down,
and given twenty lashes with a bullwhip before sex ...
>>
>>> We are who we are. Confurence has problems. Name a Fan
>>> Convention that does NOT! That is best handled behind the scenes
>>> taking the fan's interests and concerns into consideration.
>>
>>The problem here is that, after literally YEARS of agitation from fans on
>>this matter, their interests and concerns are NOT being considered. At
>>all. They are, in fact, being rebuffed as "hateful" by many, while the
>>con staff themselves remain largely silent or quietly supportive of such
>>activities.
>
>The same thing can be said about issue lated to furry-realted topics.
>Such as the mucking part, which i was extremely mad at when it turned
>out the adminstartors of both of them i was on were corrupt, idiotic,
>people who had a ton of Yesmen to back them up. Bringing this to AFF i
>figured i could find many who had fallen under that trap. But it
>seemed that flaming was the only response they could give (Due to the
>extreme nature of the post, and the fact many censor the darkness).
>I've given up on that, but i still mention it because simlar incidents
>like this come about. It is also why i still am on this group (Even if
>few have killfiles because they figure i'm stupid).
Matt, I say it again:
Take it to alt.fan.furry.mucks.
Take it to alt.fan.furry.mucks.
Take it to alt.fan.furry.mucks.
Take it to alt.fan.furry.mucks.
You have told us, over and over and over and *over* and OVER about your muck
problem. We can't do anything about it. Find someone who can. Quit
telling your story to people that can't help you with it.
>>
>> Because CF is not addressing these concerns, the concerned are going
>>elsewhere for their conventions where at all possible.
>
>CF won't fix the problems because too many don't care or are afriad.
>This is the problem with any group, when one doesn't speak out against
>another in a line of people, trouble begins.
Except for the fact that we've seen lots of people speak out on the subject
here. But, nah. That must just be an illusion. The post from CalAnim8r
that started this whole argument is a fiction caused by mass hysteria.
After all, it says something bad about ConFurence, and Matt says furry fans
won't say anything bad about anything connected with furry fandom. And
since Matt is the hero AntiCensor, champion of the free speech, destroyer of
oppressors everywhere who would cast down our beloved fandom into the pits
of despair ... well, he *must* be right, now, mustn't he?
>
>>>> We bring to conFurence our own perceptions and feelings. let us not
poison
>>> others because something does not particularly fit our "ways."
>>
>>Which is an attitude, quite frankly, that I have seen from *both* sides
>>of the CF fence.
>
>Which i belive isn't so bad. The question is, can the fandom make
>others do what others do? and if so, why should they?
>
Matt, please explain this one later. But for now, I'll answer based on my
own imperfect understanding of it:
Can the fandom control the actions of others? No, not really. Truly, only
individuals may control their own actions. Just as you have the freedom to
post here, no matter what you say you'll do to me if I threaten you with my
nefarious Desserts of Doom, which are no doubt biogenic weapons in disguise
... just as I have the freedom to say these ridiculous things in an effort
to provide irony ... just as Mark Merlino has the freedom to decide that sex
is the be-all and end-all of furry as far as he's concerned ... so others
must make their own decisions. Furry fandom can only attempt to associate
itself with the most positive images and connotations available, while
trying to avoid having hotel managers everywhere think we're porn pushers
and bondage fanatics. After all, just as those who practise such activities
are free to perform them in private (except in Texas, they still haven't
repealed that law), the hotel managers are free to refuse to rent space to
any convention which they feel would offend their guests. Now, please note
that this is not, classically speaking, censorship. This is free
enterprise. If the manager feels that the con would scare away more
customers than it would provide, then it is his duty to his employer to turn
us away.
Of course, if you're saying you have a place where we could hold CF10 that
you'll let us use for a reasonable price, well, that's different ... :)
Yours truly,
The ever-ironic, Matt-debating,
Wanderer****************'Where am I going?I don't quite know.
****************************'What does it matter where people go?
w00...@airmail.net '*****Down to the woods where the bluebells grow.
****************************Anywhere!Anywhere!Idon't know!
Allen Kitchen
> CalAnim8r's post was in no way construable as an "attack". It was, in
> fact, the bald-faced truth. As for CF8, which I attended (as I attended
> CF4-7, and shall attend CF9), I personally was treated to the sight of
> someone in full-torso bondage gear, ball gag, and leash being "walked" by
> someone else.
>
> In the main lobby, next to the elevators.
If my wife detects that post, I can kiss my trip
to CF9 goodbye. As I've said before, I'm not going to ram
my sexuality down anyone's eyesockets, and will appreciate
the same in return. I'm going to CF9 to have fun and meet
fellow furries. Not change my orientation, consider alternate
lifestyles (I'm a wolf! How alternate do you want??) or boff
people in the hallways.
I am trying to keep an open mind for this trip. But
all the talk is making me nervous.
> As a result, ConFurence IS being damaged...many people will NOT attend
> because of this matter. This is called "voting with your feet", which is
> what many diehard supporters of CF's lax attitude have suggested ---
I'm not easily offended. So if I return with a bad opinion
it will be justly earned. I shall be filing a report here on AFF on
my personal observations after the con.
But if people go out of their way to squick me, I will be
'voting with my feet' as well. I don't know one way or the other at
this point, as I've not gone to a con before (other than same lame
local SciFi cons.) I am trying to have no prejudices as I enter
the doors. I hope to have a lot of fun.
> Newbies, by their very newness, have NOT have that time. It should
> surprise no one that a significant number of newcomers to the fandom, who
> find it via CF, may well flee it.
I'm not a newbie. But I'm only active for 2 years, and never got
to go to CF before now. Nothing I see or experience at CF9 will cause
me to leave the fandom. Some things may cause me to abandon CF
as a routine adventure however...
Allen Kitchen (shockwave)
all...@blkbox.com
http://www.blkbox.com/~osprey/
peppe...@yahoo.com
In article <19971208052...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
cala...@aol.com (CalAnim8R) wrote:
> A Normal's Introduction to Furry
>
> I was at LosCon in Los Angeles just a few weeks ago. Browsing the party
> board, I noticed there was only one 'furry' party advertised; the one that was
> sponsored by ConFurence's Mark Merlino and Rod O'Riley. 'Food, Fun and
> Furries!' promised the flier. So I decided to take a look, to see what being
> furry is all about.
> The door to the party was closed, so I opened it and entered. I looked around
> the room. There was a table with pamphlets and publishings,along with binders
> of artwork by various popular furry artists. I love cartoons, let's open the
> books and see.
> Gaah! There's a lot of pornography and X-rated artwork in those books, like
> maybe 70%. There was no warning label on the covers; it was just like, haha,
> surprise! And in one of the books there was animal pedophilia, bestiality and
> Disney lions copulating. So this is what furry's all about.
> I looked at some more pamphlets and was confused by one small green one. It
> said "Live the Dream: Upcoming Events". It was about'Alternative Lifestyles'.
> Group marriages, Threesomes, and multiple relationships." Hmm. So 'being
> furry' is about multiple relationships and group marriage.
> There was a sort of stapled handout that was supposed to define what 'furry'
> means as well. "A collection of words about the furry phenomenon" it said,
> along with "This may shed some light on what we furries are about, and perhaps
> peak the interest of some...to explore further." "Enclosed is a flyer for the
> media convention/social gathering that Rod and I have been directing for
> years.", meaning, ConFurence.
> The flyer went on, "Here is a definition of 'furry', taken from a T-shirt..."
> "4. A lifestyle revolving around a love and emulation of furries."
> There were some other articles in the flyer about 'modern totems' and'breaking
> the news to your parents'. There was the first page of a story titled "The
>One Lioness", apparently based on Merlino's role-playing character. As a
>footnote, Merlino notes that he has since met many fellow role-players in
>person through this muck, and "currently reside in our home".
> So, based on these pamphlets, flyers and collections of artwork that was
> representing what furry is all about, I came to the conclusion that
> A. Furry is about 'alternative lifestyles'.
> but more predominantly,
> B. Furry is about sex.
See, see! This is what worries me! The fact that when many people are
introduced to the fandom, they get such information. Let's say you were
at some comics con and you saw a party for "furry" fandom and you didn't
know what it was. You go in and see this kinda stuff, and no matter
*what* you think of it when you first see it, ("wow, I'd like to know
more" or "wow, this stuff is disgusting"), you *will* think that furry
fandom does have *something* to do with alternate lifestyles and sexual
lifestyles and nothing else. YES, furry cons have nice, cooler than cool
people that you can meet, YES, the furry fandom is about *much* more than
THAT, but THIS is what everyone sees. Not only that, if this is how
furry fandom and furry cons are represented in other venues (such as SDCC
or LosCon), then that only makes furry fandom look more like a lifestyle
than anything else. That is why I'm convinced that in the near future,
the furry fandom will have a bad rep amongst many, even worse than other
types of fandoms, as being some sort of freakish sexual lifestyle. It
just sucks that people that I've grown to like so much are going to go
down the tubes. Sure, "alternate" lifestyles are cool (hell, I hate to
label stuff like that "alternate", there's so much of it all over), but
lots of people don't think highly of them these days. Damn, the only
reason I'm concerned is because I've lived my whole life as a minority
and I KNOW what furries will have to endure in the near future. Don't
take it lightly, don't write off this CalAnim8 dude (or dudette) off as
being some sort of misinformed nut. Don't try to put some crazy nitpicky
logic to anyone's "arguments", sometimes you just go to try to see what
reality has to say and make your judgements that way.
cal...@goodnet.com
In article <01bd02a0$80e8b840$9f6d0fd0@shanda>,
"Curtis Family" <shan...@cyberback.com> wrote:
> Pardon me, who are you and what have you done for Furry Fandom?
Pardon *me*, Mike, but this comes across as "Silence, peon!". Hardly a
professional attitude to take. If we in America based the right to make
our opinions heard based on "what-have-you-done-lately", we could just
shred the First Amendment and be done with it. The man has an opinion;
whether it's right or wrong, it deserves to be considered based on its
merits or lack thereof... NOT on basis of where the guy supposedly is in
the Grand Pecking Order.
> Mark created and hosts the longest running convention for our genre. Mark
> is not perfect, but neither am I and neither are you.
No one is asking for "perfect". No one is even asking Mark change his
lifestyle. What they, as fans and ATTENDEES to ConFurence, are asking for
is that Mark not run the convention in a manner which will harm the
convention or the fandom itself. They have every right to *ask* for such
a thing. Mark has every right to *ignore* them. They have every right to
throw up their hands in disgust and find another convention to attend or
drop out of the fandom altogether, as many have *already* done. To scream
that abandoning a convention which no longer appeals to oneself is
unacceptable behavior is ridiculous. Get hold of yourself and think about
what you're saying.
> This childish "he's so bad" crap is what makes us look like a bunch of
> arrested adolescents.
It certainly does, Mike. We also look adolescent when we throw around the
term "Nazi" when someone decides to avoid our favorite convention.
cal...@goodnet.com
In article <3490ab7b...@snews.zippo.com>,
mmi...@enteract.com wrote:
>
> On Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:22:02 -0600, cal...@goodnet.com wrote:
> >CalAnim8r's post was in no way construable as an "attack". It was, in
> >fact, the bald-faced truth.
>
> The Truth in this case is truth of opinon.
The Truth, in this case, is that CalAni8r walked into a party run by Mark
which was advertised as "Food, Fun and Furries!" and wound up stumbling
into scads of porn and other material which indicated (wrongly) that
furfandom was *about* sex. Now, unless you're claiming that Cal was lying
about the entire incident, this has nothing to do with opinion and
everything to do with reality.
> Let s understand that Mark Melino is only a human being who's opinon
> about furry happens to be different from the rest. To target him for
> this opinon or actions that are brought upon this opinon is not only
> immoral, but wrong. If some wish not to start fights over the simple
> things, why start with this?.
Let me get this straight...Mark Merlino runs CF. CF begins to attract
"alternate lifestyle" fans, including but not limited to people who wear
ball gags and full-torso bondage gear in the hotel's main lobby. Mark
refuses to take any action to keep this from happening. Fans begin to
avoid ConFurence.
Now, what you're saying is that to COMPLAIN about public activity which
is offensive and quite probably illegal is to TARGET Mark? That choosing
to avoid CF due to such activity is to start a *fight*?
> Yes, I understand the press was brought there, but so what?. Some of
> the press understand that their's more to things than what's at
> Confurence.
So when someone sees you drawing furry stuff and says, "Hey, you're one
of those sick freaks I saw on TV, aren't you?", your attitude is that to
complain about it --- or about the potential for such a thing to happen
--- is wrong?
> There are other ways and things to look for in the fandom,
> maybe that wasn't his idea in the first place, but others can address
> the fact that sex isn't the furry fandom itslef.
Others have. The press have largely ignored them. Sensationalism sells
papers. Funny, that...amazing how the American press acts like a
business. You'd think they were in it for the money or something.
> >s for CF8, which I attended (as I attended
> >CF4-7, and shall attend CF9), I personally was treated to the sight of
> >someone in full-torso bondage gear, ball gag, and leash being "walked" by
> >someone else.
>
> That is their decision.
As it has been the decision of many to avoid CF altogether due to such
behavior. If CF wishes to ignore its patrons' complaints regarding such
matters, CF should not be surprised if and when those patrons take their
patronage elsewhere.
> > Even in California, where I used to live, this sort of behavior --- in
> >public --- is rare to the point where any "norm" would be left to assume
> >they were "with the convention". Which, of course, they were.
>
> But why should you fear for your life if you don't even do it?
Considering that no one has suggested that anyone's *life* is endangered
by such things, that's a pointless thing to ask. All I can think of to
explain such a question is that you feel that ONLY life-threatening
matters should provide a reason to avoid ConFurence. It doesn't seem to
occur to you that people go to conventions to *enjoy* them, and when they
cease to *enjoy* them they no longer should be expected to attend.
> > Back after CF7, there was a firestorm of controversy concerning similar
> >behavior from some attendees. Mark Merlino's "policy" in response to this
> >was contained in one line in the CF8 program book...which, of course, was
> >only distributed *at* CF8. No policy on the matter was made public or
> >solidified prior to this. Mark's policy was, simply, to "tone it down a
> >bit". The result was that things got worse.
> Some people don't listen, others do.
Are you suggesting that someone other than Mark and Rodney make the
ultimate decisions as to ConFurence policy? If not, talking to those that
have no authority is not going to accomplish anything. If so, who are
they?
> >This has been a steady trend
> >for CF since CF4, and some would say earlier; a lax attitude towards lewd
> >public behavior (a crime in most areas) has led to more blatant displays
> >every following year, and now we literally have "leather bondage queens"
> >strutting around as though they own the convention.
> But isn't part of being furry more of a freedom to express yourslef
> without the constraints that society brings. Or am i mistaken?
I wasn't aware that ball gags and nipple clamps were in any way, shape,
or form, what furfandom is "about". Nor was I of the understanding that
expressing a *distaste* and desire to *avoid* such things is somehow
ANTI-furry.
> > As a result, ConFurence IS being damaged..
> No, I think furries have lost their furryness and have returned to
> humans. The result is this discussion.
Ah, hello. You ARE human. You ROLEPLAY a furry. The IRS does not ask you
for your hairball deduction. The Army does not provide a curry comb in
the event you get drafted. You cannot vote for Socks instead of Clinton
at the polls. If "this discussion" is the result of "furries having lost
their furriness", in your opinion, I can only conclude that you DO think
furfandom is about having the ability to get one's rocks off in public
without anyone having the right to protest it.
> >.many people will NOT attend because of this matter.
> Many people don't accept different people
You're right. I don't let Hare Krishnas or Jehovah's Witnesses in my
house, either. In the event that a televangelist shows up at some future
CF and starts haranguing people in the main lobby, I certainly hope you
won't prove yourself a hypocrite and dare to take offense at someone's
use of the fandom to stick their lifestyle in everyone's face.
> I would like to know the whole "voting with your feet" concept
"Furfandom: Love Me or Leave It". Pretty much the attitude a lot of these
people wearing bondage and mooning people in public have. And, as Mr.
Curtis has shown, when they DO take the advice and "Leave It", well,
they're Nazis. Does the term "clueless" ring a bell?
> >> If one goes to ConFurence seeking
> >> pornography, i am sure they will find it. If they go to meet friends
> >> and enjoy themselves, I believe they will. If they go to learn
> >> anthropomorphic art, costuming, animation, I KNOW they will!
>
> I think you lost me here.
That's because you're responding to a quotation from the poster I
responded to.
> >Newbies, by their very newness, have NOT have that time. It should
> >surprise no one that a significant number of newcomers to the fandom, who
> >find it via CF, may well flee it.
> You never know.
I DO know. I've MET them. One guy I ran into in Phoenix, working at
Wherehouse Records, noticed my Red Shetland t-shirt and said, "Oh, you're
a furry?".
To which I grinned and said, "Yeah! Nice meeting a fellow furfan!"
"Oh, I'm not in the fandom anymore..."
In the conversation that followed, the gentleman revealed that he had
moved to Arizona from California to "escape furfandom". I asked him if
he'd ever met a man named Mark who was big in California furfandom. He
said "Merlino?" and began to rattle off a list of atrocities (to him)
that occurred at or near the Prancing Skiltaire (Mark's house). These
acts caused him to flee not just furfandom, but the STATE. Although he
said he though I personally was a nice guy, he'd thought the same had
been true of Mark and wanted NOTHING to do with the fandom. It scared
hell out of him, although he was willing to admit he *might* have fallen
in with the wrong crowd. He just didn't want to even risk it anymore.
> CF won't fix the problems because too many don't care or are afriad.
> This is the problem with any group, when one doesn't speak out against
> another in a line of people, trouble begins.
You just got done saying there *aren't* any problems beyond that of
tolerating "alternate lifestyles" in the main hotel lobby.
cal...@goodnet.com
In article <348989...@your.door>,nobody wrote:
> If this is solely a matter of Mr. Merlino's handling
> of the situation, then fine, but take it up in e-mail or postal mail.
I agree thoroughly, but that is in fact not what the majority of posts on
this subject are about. The posting was triggered in the first place by,
first, CalAni8r's letter stating why Cal wasn't going to attend CF. It
wasn't an attack, it wasn't off-base, and it wasn't uncalled for. The
second thing that triggered the matter was Mike Curtis jumping down Cal's
throat and finishing up by invoking Godwin's Law and calling his
"opposition" a Nazi.
This resulted in posts wondering what happened to the nice Mr. Curtis
we all know and admire, defending Cal's original post in the process. Mr.
Curtis then jumped down someone ELSE's throat, suggesting they had no
right to say anything on the matter (sure, the guy was a net-kook, but
GEEZ). This prompted *more* responses.
What this thread is about ultimately, I think, is a call for civility
on one side and a call to "shut up if you don't like it" on the other.
Rainshadow
In article <01bd0708$6b173de0$8f301bc6@spgspare>, "Allen Kitchen" <allen...@blkbox.com> writes:
> the same in return. I'm going to CF9 to have fun and meet
> fellow furries. Not change my orientation, consider alternate
> lifestyles (I'm a wolf! How alternate do you want??) or boff
> people in the hallways.
> I am trying to keep an open mind for this trip. But
> all the talk is making me nervous.
Last year I attended CF8 for two days, during the daytime on saturday and sunday.
During those two days I saw nothing even remotely like any of the horrors
that folks are bringing up here. Maybe I was just lucky...
-Rain' ... maybe not...
--
"Please, no gratitude. Just money."
-Guardian Knights #3
If you hate complaints from the mailer-daemon and you
have some peverse desire to talk to me, use the
this email: ude.dscu.liamoib@tarknapd
(Read it backwards, silly. :)
WalksFar
On 11 Dec 1997 13:14:32 GMT, da...@access2.digex.net (Dale Farmer)
wrote:
(snip)
>:
>: Walksfar, in agreement with Mike Curtis . . . .
>The problem is that far too many attendees of confurence (I won't
>call them furry fans, because that's not the reason that they came
>to the con.) Don't have the minimal social grace needed to know
>when it is time to *TAKE IT TO YOUR ROOM*! I don't begrudge anyone
>the desire to indulge in whatever floats their boat, but please,
>please, take it out of the public parts of the hotel and put it
>in your room, behind a locked door. I don't think that is asking
>too much of anybody.
>
>
I saw exactly what you refer to. Roy Pound and i had the
same feelings of revulsion and anger. The "public" display of one's
own "lifestyle," shoving it into the faces of others was inappropriate
and disturbing. THAT part should be kept behind closed doors. IF
that is what you refer to, then we are in agreement!
Walksfar . . . .
Mark Atwood
rans...@au-au.extern.ucsd.edu (Rainshadow) writes:
> Last year I attended CF8 for two days, during the daytime on
> saturday and sunday. During those two days I saw nothing even
> remotely like any of the horrors that folks are bringing up
> here. Maybe I was just lucky...
No, your experiece was pretty typical. I would say that MOST of the complaints work like this:
A wears a collar in public
B sees A
B mentions to C, "I saw someone wearing a collar"
C tells D, "Someone was wearing bondage gear"
D tells E, "There were people in bondage gear"
E tells F, "There was a group all in bondage gear"
F tells G, "There was a group doing a bondage scene"
G tells H, "I saw a group doing a X rated bondage scene in the lobby"
Get a grip, people.
--
Mark Atwood | Thank you gentlemen, you are everything we have come to
z...@ampersand.com | expect from years of government training. -- MIB Zed
Dr. Cat
Geez, are people arguing about this same old stuff again?
*-------------------------------------------**-----------------------------*
Dr. Cat / Dragon's Eye Productions || Free alpha test:
*-------------------------------------------** http://www.bga.com/furcadia
Furcadia - a new graphic mud for PCs! || Let your imagination soar!
*-------------------------------------------**-----------------------------*
(Disclaimer: I'm not arguing about it. Nope, not me!)
WalksFar
On 5 Dec 1997 21:04:14 GMT, e...@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg) wrote:
>In article <349213c4...@news.psnw.com>
> walk...@psnw.com (WalksFar) writes:
>
>> I saw exactly what you refer to. Roy Pound and i had the
>>same feelings of revulsion and anger. The "public" display of one's
>>own "lifestyle," shoving it into the faces of others was inappropriate
>>and disturbing. THAT part should be kept behind closed doors. IF
>>that is what you refer to, then we are in agreement!
>
> Why should they? Shouldn't they demand that you keep your
>lifestyle behind closed doors as well?
>
> Elf
I keep my lifestyle where it belongs, IN PRIVATE! I do NOT
appreciate "blow-jobs" in the lobby, "bondage queens" with whips and
slaves out in the open doing their "thing," or "Drag Queens" flaunting
themselves about in ways inappropriate to the spirit of the Con! I do
NOT wish to see ConFurence labeled wrongly as some were jokingly
referring it to as "FagCon" last year.
Lifestyles are not the question. I have no beef with
"whatever" is is they feel their life mode is. Their
"in-your-face-take-it-or-leave-it" attitude is what is in questionable
taste and even the staff of ConFurence has railed against it. They DO
NOT HAVE the right to shove it into everyone else's face and force it
down our throats. I do not care WHAT they choose to do as long as it
is NOT in public! "Intimate Behavior" does NOT belong in full view of
con attendees and the public mundanes at large. If anything it
constitutes lewd and lascivious behavior and is an arrestible offense
and I, for one, would feel no pity for them if they were!
WalksFar, who does not have an issue with alternative lifestyles,
but WHERE they are indulged in . . . .
Elf Sternberg
In article <01bd0708$6b173de0$8f301bc6@spgspare>
"Allen Kitchen" <allen...@blkbox.com> writes:
> If my wife detects that post, I can kiss my trip
>to CF9 goodbye. As I've said before, I'm not going to ram
>my sexuality down anyone's eyesockets, and will appreciate
>the same in return.
Isn't it funny how those who live in the mainstream claim
seeing anything unusual is considered "ramming it down their
throats," but never stop to think twice that their demand for and
exercise of their mainstreamishness is de facto ramming conformity
down the throats of those who would rather be different.
Try not to be someone else's thought belief, Allen, and
they'll hopefully have the courtesy not to screw with yours. Go to
CF9 and have fun; but if you expect to wander out into the world
don't be surprised or upset if you see weird, unusual, and even
wonderful things.
> I am trying to keep an open mind for this trip. But
>all the talk is making me nervous.
Bah. Joke 'em if they can't take it. People are probably
not going out of their way to squick you. (You know what would
squick me? If the hotel invited a few Jehovah's Witnesses to hold a
convention simultaneously with our own...) While everything and
everyone at the 'con will be in good taste, they will all hopefully
be within the letter of the law. Admittedly, the law in California
is curiously both more lax and strict than in your home state of
Texas, but apparently Californians manage to be a part of the United
States without too much culture shock. If they can, so can you.
Elf
--
Elf Sternberg (e...@halcyon.com) / http://www.halcyon.com/elf
The God whom science recognizes must be a God of universal laws
exclusively, a God who does a wholesale, not a retail business.
He cannot accomodate His processes to the convenience of individuals.
- William James, The Varieties of Religious Experience, 1902
Elf Sternberg
> I saw exactly what you refer to. Roy Pound and i had the
>same feelings of revulsion and anger. The "public" display of one's
>own "lifestyle," shoving it into the faces of others was inappropriate
>and disturbing. THAT part should be kept behind closed doors. IF
>that is what you refer to, then we are in agreement!
Why should they? Shouldn't they demand that you keep your
lifestyle behind closed doors as well?
Elf
Xydexx Squeakypony
"Allen Kitchen" <allen...@blkbox.com> wrote:
> I am trying to keep an open mind for this trip. But
>all the talk is making me nervous.
Remember, talk is cheap. I've been to CF6 and CF8, and will be going
to CF9 also. I wouldn't be spending money to fly all the way out
there if it wasn't fun.
Confurence is what you make of it. Go and enjoy yourself.
__________________________________________________________________
Rev. Xydexx Squeakypony, K.S.C. - Xydexx's Anthrofurry Homepage
http://www.smart.net/~xydexx/welcome.htm
Xydexx Squeakypony
Mark Atwood <z...@ampersand.com> wrote:
>No, your experiece was pretty typical. I would say that MOST of the complaints work like this:
>
>A wears a collar in public
>B sees A
>B mentions to C, "I saw someone wearing a collar"
>C tells D, "Someone was wearing bondage gear"
>D tells E, "There were people in bondage gear"
>E tells F, "There was a group all in bondage gear"
>F tells G, "There was a group doing a bondage scene"
>G tells H, "I saw a group doing a X rated bondage scene in the lobby"
That pretty much sums it up. Folks here have mentioned they haven't
seen half the stuff that people tell horror stories about. When I was
at CF8, I didn't see _any_ of the stuff people tell horror stories
about. But then, I went to CF8 with the intention of having a good
time, not with the intention of looking for things to complain about.
Xydexx Squeakypony
cal...@goodnet.com wrote:
>"Furfandom: Love Me or Leave It". Pretty much the attitude a lot of these
>people wearing bondage and mooning people in public have. And, as Mr.
>Curtis has shown, when they DO take the advice and "Leave It", well,
>they're Nazis. Does the term "clueless" ring a bell?
No, but the term "Godwin's Law" does.
Hanno Foest
> When I was
> at CF8, I didn't see _any_ of the stuff people tell horror stories
> about. But then, I went to CF8 with the intention of having a good
> time, not with the intention of looking for things to complain about.
<AOL> Me too! </AOL>
Hurga
po...@newsgroup.net
MMilam wrote in article <6705hd$q...@sdrn.zippo.com>...
> In article , "Wanderer" says...
>>
>>Okay, *this* time, I respond (and Matthew, threatening someone with arrest
>>for wanting to bring you a dessert is *not* appropriate behaviour, no matter
>>what they told you at charm school. Miss Manners distinctly frowns upon
>>taking legal action against friendliness).
>
>what made me throw out the arrest part. So, please, get over it.
Get over it?? Well well... could Mathew possibly have heard that before?
Maybe from several pawfuls of posters telling him to do the same about his
precious 'point' about the mucks? Of course he hasn't followed that advice
yet and here he is telling Wanderer to do it.
>
>>>things, why start with this?.
>>Matt, the truth being referred to is that there *was* a flier that
>>advertised a party where you could "Meet the Fandom", that there *was* an
>>unmarked portfolio loaded with R-rated pictures where minors could get at
>>them, that Mark Merlino *has* been reported as saying "Furry is sex" by many
>>separate individuals. Precisely what, in this chain of concrete facts, is
>>opinion?
>
>Furry is sex is an opinon, there are many different terms to furry as i have
>seen. Don't any of you have cameras? Why not make a documentary (And don't throw
>out the we have no money thing) about what furry is about threw indiivuals in
>the fandom. They don't have to be per se the head hanchos or the popular people,
>but just the regulars, in the darkness, types.
What Wanderer's point is, was that this whole mess was directed at Mark
Merlino's apparent attempt to standardize Furriness as Furrotica. I know
not the base for this, I know not the people involved, this is only what
I've gleened from reading the posts so far. 'Furry is sex' is an opiniion,
true; the world revolves around Mathew Milam is another opinion, held by a
single loathsome individual, but that was not any part of the point
Wanderer was making.
>
>>First off, the media reports whatever brings it the highest ratings.
>
>Second off, that's false. The "media" is the more-well known newspapers,
>magizine and news shows. There are also the little known but better-balanced
>shows like Biography, The History Channel, A%E. Something around the lines of
>that.
So? What's your point?
(Borrowing from Mathews own library of inane quips. ;)
>>In today's market, that's just economic self-preservation. Now, which
>>of the following taglines would *you*, speaking just for yourself, find
>>more interesting?:
>>
>>1.) ... and, finally, a cartoon convention comes to town to celebrate
>>animals in animation.
>
>I don't agree with the title, but yes.
>
>>
>>2.) ... and up next: Convention Chaos as a hotel party becomes an orgy.
>>Trish MacNeil has more ..
>
>That's always going to happen, banning bad news would be turning the media
>into "Disney" mode..
Again, what's your point? He never said anything about 'banning bad news'.
In fact, you just agreed with him. That IS 'always going to happen'. The
darker the headline, the more it is listened to. And, unfortunately, that
is exactly what the media realizes also.
>>
>>Second, as to "others" trying to address the fact that sex isn't all there
>>is to furry fandom ... what the hoo-hah do you think CalAnim8r was getting
>>at?
>
> That i'm still not sure about, many of the different postings suggest they
> can't. Many suggest they can, hard to tell which.
Exactly. You have no idea what much of this thread is about, but it _IS_
a smoldering subject so you want to jump in with your big cardboard square
and fan it as much as you can. I'll indicate where you bring up your
own precious 'Point' about abuse on mucks in all this, which seems to be
the primary part of most of your posts, regardless of the original subject,
regardless how off-topic it may be.
>
>>He simply has a problem with Merlino holding a "Meet the Fandom" party
>>and filling the room with sexpics and spooge art, while ignoring the rest of
>>the fandom.
>
>Then make your own version, or is that too hard to do?
Why don't you make your own newsgroup where you can rant about
mucks till you're satisfied, or is THAT too difficult for YOU
to do?
>>>
>>>
>>>>s for CF8, which I attended (as I attended
>>>>CF4-7, and shall attend CF9), I personally was treated to the sight of
>>>>someone in full-torso bondage gear, ball gag, and leash being "walked" by
>>>>someone else.
>
> This is a werid world we live in. Anything can happen. Anything is possible.
And that is your excuse for doing nothing? Take some advice...
don't offer any advice.
>
>>>That is their decision.
>>True. Unfortunately, they chose to parade their decision in front of people
>>who had *not* asked to be invited into this couple's private activities or
>>expressed an interest in bondage.
>
>Then turn away, that's what i do. I don't get mad and cuss them out for their
>activites.
WHOA WHOA... stop the cart right here! All that garbage you posted about
SPR and Tapestries Mucks and you tell Wanderer to just turn away? Godddess
aren't you hypocr now. Because *that*, -you- *DO-NOT*.
I guess you never flamed the admin for throwing you off their Mucks? I
guess you were never a royal ASCII with your constant morphing and flaming
of readers of AFF for posting against you? You never attacked the fandom
with ludicrous accusations of censoring for not wanting to listen to your
feces and off-topic nonsense? You never cried about people not using E-mail
to responding to your public raving? Man mathew, you are knee-deep in your
own now.
>
>>In addition, they, as CF attendees, drew
>>attention to something which had no discernible attachment to
>>anthropomorphic animals (i.e., the harness was neither sulky nor dog and the
>>bondage boy was not wearing a muzzle of either sort). This causes people to
>>wonder why the gathering is called ConFurence instead of ConFinement ... as
>>well as start wondering what we're hiding behind closed room doors.
>
>There no werider than the fandom itself, which seems to hate human beings and
>take RL for granted sometimes. (Notice i said sometimes) (You can throw the "I'm
>an idiot sign" right here or email it to me at: mmi...@enteract.com)
Are you even a Furry Fan? Now you are down to wild accusations
*again*. Well I have one for you... you are NO furry. You have
no business in AFF.
>
>>Finally, if you were the manager of the hotel, would you like the idea of
>>renting out a highly profitable room to people that were scaring off your
>>guests?
>
>I'm smelling a bit of prejudice here, or is this another furry characteristic i
>don't know about?
Oh goddess, this one is a laugh!
OK... first response I'll borrow from Mathews own library of inane quips again:
Really, Mathew? How do you _smell_ anything on a newsgroup?
Now to address it's content:
That response must have come out of nowhere because there was nothing
referencing prejudice in what Wanderer said. I've noticed you love to
just pull nonsensical meanings out of the air a lot... or from your own
mind, which I suspect is about the same mass. No 'prejudice' was
mentioned. None will be discussed.
>
>>I didn't see any mention in this post of "fear for my life", Matt. But he...
Just like above, Mathew loves to pull stuff out of the air and toss it
into conversations for who-knows-what effect besides fueling a flame.
>
>>does fear for the fandom, if we keep having people at our conventions who'll
>>scare off any new recruits.
>
>Maybe you should warn them of that, You make things worse by telling people
>stranger than most here that they are wrong for what there doing, talk to a
>normal person about "furry" and see how they react. It's the same thing, no if's
>ands or buts. You want to be respected and as well as other people, then respect
>others as well. I make a point of not telling people stranger than me to not be
>at certain places or times just because people my freak out.
Jeese you just can't understand a valid point much less make one can
you? This is too much gibberish to even figure out. Just explain
that further or let everyone think you are posting nonsense.
>
>>
>>Pretend for one moment that you know absolutely nothing about a fandom based
>>on anthropomorphic animals, Matt. You've never even heard the word,
>>"anthropomorphic", applied to anything outside Art History 101. You get a
>>flier that invites you to visit a party to meet people in something called,
>>"Furry Fandom". Curious, you go to the party and find a table full of
>>unmarked portfolios. You open them out of curiousity and discover that in
>>each one of these books is a different collection of sex acts. Bondage,
>>discipline, homosexuality, oral sex, and so on. All performed by cartoon
>>animals with huge genitalia, some of them recognisably patterned after
>>children's cartoon characters. Now, assuming you had never heard of
>>anything called "furry fandom" until this time, what would you honestly
>>believe "furry fandom" to be about? Especially if a person comes over to
>>you, shows you yet another sexpic portfolio, and says, "This is furry
>>fandom"? (Which, according to another part of this thread, Merlino likes to
>>do.)
>
>I think you forget that Mark is just one person. And does not control the
>Confurence, as i said before, fix the problems yourslef, instead of waiitng for
>someone else to do it for you.
What do you think most of this is about? It is about Fixing the image
that CF is presenting of Furrydom. You really don't pay attention
do you? You love toss out negativity just to see it errupt into a
flames. Soon, very soon you will be bringing out your
_precious 'point'_, won't you.
>
>>Oh, they listened, Matt. But if you were doing something I objected to,
>>that you liked, and you knew I wasn't going to do anything but complain,
>>would you stop doing it?
>
>On the one hand, Yes. But...
>On the other hand No, I would simply ask you to respect the fact that i am doing
>it. Something that i've realized is that many people do things that people don't
>like because of the following:
>
> 1, They don't want trouble.
>
> 2. They don't want to lose a status or position.
>
> 3. They don't want to lose a job.
>
> 4. They dont' want to lose a wiz bit (hint!)
AH-HAH! Caught you! Your precious 'point' you want to push on
everyone! The MAIN theme of most of your posts in AFF. The main
reason so many people GAG at just the sight of your name and so
have you killfiled.
>
>This was the point i tried to make when i first came here. However, it seemed
>like a joke, but what i'm saying now applied then, and still does.
Oh man... I'm glad *I* didn't eat before reading this. Well, I think
some of you OWN words are good to feed you now, Mathew...
Sometimes I think YOU live in a different world too.
It was YOU who got yourself thrown off Tapestries and SPR.
So, please, get over it.
>
>>Yes, Matt, you are mistaken. Skritching, cuddling and so forth are
>>permissible *with consenting partners*. The laws of society, as with the
>>laws governing a pride, a pack or a pod, must be adhered to. Just because
>>we like anthro animals doesn't mean we can make love in the middle of a
>>hotel lobby or introduce a 10-year-old child to the cinematic glory of
>>"Debbie Does Dallas". We are neither above nor outside the law.
>
>I sometimes think you know as little as i do supposedly about what goes on in
>the fandom.
No one knows as 'little' as you do nor fabricates more out of thin air.
>>>>
>>>> As a result, ConFurence IS being damaged..
>>>
>>>No, I think furries have lost their furryness and have returned to
>>>humans. The result is this discussion.
I question if you *EVER* had any furriness and what your sole
purpose for being here is. You *obviously* don't know what
this discussion is about, but you want to make it as hot as
you can.
>
>>This discussion, Matt, is about accountability.
>
>No, the discussion started out as a flame and continue. Something i thought to
>be a bit insane, since i was just fed the same 200+ word crap about the rules
>here, which have been broken several times over. That is a FACT.
Rules? How about just plain manners? Politeness. Consideration. Or
even common sense? If you are like this in-person, lacking the above,
you have to be one pathetic individual.
>
>>Some individuals are using
>>ConFurence as a smokescreen. Without being involved in the fandom itself,
>>they arrive, squick the Mundanes with bondage and leather, and send any
>>complainants to the CF staff before pulling up their tents and moving on.
>>This is all about accountability, theirs, Matt Merlino's and ConFurence's,
>>for the repercussions of their actions. And that's the same in human and
>>animal societies both.
>
>How can you talk about accountablity? when you won't even admit that it was
>wrong for this to be here in the first place, and further more, why let it
>contiune?.
Wrong to YOU, Mathew. To others it is a VERY grave concern and
people have a right to post concerns within the limits of courtesy,
common sense, and consideration. Something you lack so badly it
drives people to toss those limitations aside just to respond on
_your_ level of innane quips and cheap rhetoric.
>
>>And a few of us are comparatively "plain vanilla". Are you saying
>>heterosexuals don't belong in this fandom?
>
>"sighs".
>
>I am saying that everyone belongs in the fandom. And my preference is not the
>case at hand here.
Oh really? We are just 'wierder than most' people alive, have no clue
about what is right or wrong inside the fandom itself, censor anyone
who tries to point out an injustice, but now anyone has a right to
belong? Can you make up our minds please?
>
>>If so, may I ask what your
>>preference is?
>
> Same as above.
Everyone? That's a little broad, Mathew.
Borrowing from the Mathew Library again:
Explain please.
>
>>>I think you lost me here.
At this point, he has managed to lose any point in all this.
>
>>That poster, whose attribution you removed with the original quotelist, was
>>saying, "There's no problem. If CalAnim8r found porn, he must've been
>>looking for it in the first place. The entire problem is his. It has
>>nothing to do with ConFurence". (See also the line, "pay no attention to
>>the man behind the curtain" ...)
>
>Still lost, but i'll move on.
This should have been at the very beginning of his post since
he never had a clue to start.
>
>>True. We'll attract a lot of people who want to be beaten up, chained down,
>>and given twenty lashes with a bullwhip before sex ...
>
>Being Furry is considered werid, what they do is considered werid? Besides the
>actual activiites and doings, What's the real difference?
What the hell did you just say? I'm sorry I'm not fluent in gibberish.
Explain that better please.
But to respond to what I 'percieve' as his meaning, I think he is trying
to say that 'people who want to be beaten up, chained down, and given
twenty lashes with a bullwhip before sex' is the 'actual activities and
doings' of furries. Sick sick sick. BDSM is considered an alternate
lifestyle, one with it's own category. It can be mixed with other
lifestyles, but it definately stands apart from them. Furriness has
nothing to do with that and I think in part, that is what this thread
is about.
>
>>>>> We are who we are. Confurence has problems. Name a Fan
>>>>> Convention that does NOT! That is best handled behind the scenes
>>>>> taking the fan's interests and concerns into consideration.
>>>>
>>>>The problem here is that, after literally YEARS of agitation from fans on
>>>>this matter, their interests and concerns are NOT being considered. At
>>>>all. They are, in fact, being rebuffed as "hateful" by many, while the
>>>>con staff themselves remain largely silent or quietly supportive of such
>>>>activities.
>>>
>>>The same thing can be said about issue lated to furry-realted topics.
>>>Such as the mucking part, which i was extremely mad at when it turned
>>>out the adminstartors of both of them i was on were corrupt, idiotic,
>>>people who had a ton of Yesmen to back them up. Bringing this to AFF i
>>>figured i could find many who had fallen under that trap. But it
>>>seemed that flaming was the only response they could give (Due to the
>>>extreme nature of the post, and the fact many censor the darkness).
>>>I've given up on that, but i still mention it because simlar incidents
>>>like this come about. It is also why i still am on this group (Even if
>>>few have killfiles because they figure i'm stupid).
Whoa Ho! Here it is again... the MAIN POINT of Mathews ranting. The
'precious point' about corrupt mucks which, as I explained very clearly,
died in his paws very early in his ranting and is REALLY starting to
fester badly now, AND... the only reason he's on here. Goddess this
kid needs a clue badly, AND a life.
>
>>Matt, I say it again:
>
>And i say it again also.
And I back up what Wanderer says.
>
>>Take it to alt.fan.furry.mucks.
>
>Censorship.
Hypocrite.
You censor yourself, as I have pointed out.
>
> The Truth is out there.
And that truth is you have NO Point. You EARNED your toading, Kiddo.
You deserved what you got and there is NO argument against it.
>
>>You have told us, over and over and over and *over* and OVER about your muck
>>problem. We can't do anything about it.
>
>How many is we Wanderer? This is a public newsgroup, and there may be still
>someone out there who gives a damn.
'We', in this case, is everyone who read your rants at this point with
no positive results to show for Mathew's efforts.
>
>>Find someone who can.
>
>And find your own way to get the point across that furry isn't about sex.
He is. He is posting it. You, Mathew, obviously have no intention
of posting productively here. All you want to do is push your precious,
dead, festering 'point', by your own admission, so why even bother
responding to any other posts? Whatever you say is inane, gibberish
and off topic with intent to start flames.
>
>>Quit telling your story to people that can't help you with it.
>
>Again, i'm smelling censorship.
Again... how do you smell anything in a newsgroup, Mathew?
Then explain how not wanting to read your gibberish is
censorship? Censorship is preventing others from seeing
what you present. Preventing your garbage from showing up
on individuals computers by the individuals themselves is
simply freedom of choice. Another 'point' dies in your paws.
>
>>since Matt is the hero AntiCensor, champion of the free speech, destroyer of
>>oppressors everywhere who would cast down our beloved fandom into the pits
>>of despair ... well, he *must* be right, now, mustn't he?
>
>You do know how to be a wiseguy, i see.
Getting touchy about people posting at your level now? Well he does
know much better than you, and he knows WHEN and WHO to respond as
such to.
>
>>>>> We bring to conFurence our own perceptions and feelings. let us not poison
>>>>> others because something does not particularly fit our "ways."
>
>>>>Which is an attitude, quite frankly, that I have seen from *both* sides
>>>>of the CF fence.
>
>>>Which i belive isn't so bad. The question is, can the fandom make
>>>others do what others do? and if so, why should they?
>>>
>>Matt, please explain this one later.
>
>And please stop asking me to do what you want.
Only the same thing YOU have responded with when your limited mind
could not discern a compmlex meaning. Apparently it's a sore point
with you. Get over yourself, Mathew!
>
>>But for now, I'll answer based on my own imperfect understanding of it:
>
>>Can the fandom control the actions of others? No, not really. Truly, only
>>individuals may control their own actions. Just as you have the freedom to
>>post here, no matter what you say you'll do to me if I threaten you with my
>>nefarious Desserts of Doom, which are no doubt biogenic weapons in disguise
>>... just as I have the freedom to say these ridiculous things in an effort
>>to provide irony ... just as Mark Merlino has the freedom to decide that sex
>>is the be-all and end-all of furry as far as he's concerned ... so others
>>must make their own decisions. Furry fandom can only attempt to associate
>>itself with the most positive images and connotations available, while
>>trying to avoid having hotel managers everywhere think we're porn pushers
>>and bondage fanatics. After all, just as those who practise such activities
>>are free to perform them in private (except in Texas, they still haven't
>>repealed that law), the hotel managers are free to refuse to rent space to
>>any convention which they feel would offend their guests. Now, please note
>>that this is not, classically speaking, censorship.
>
>And please note that this newsgroup is a public one, so that means all kinds of
>furry fans come here.
No kidding Sherlock. Did you actually 'think' of that or did it just
come to you?
>
>>This is free enterprise. If the manager feels that the con would scare away
>>more customers than it would provide, then it is his duty to his employer to
>>turn us away.
>
>And if the manager does it for a stupid reason, such as sexual reasons, then he
>is ignorant and should be fired.
Vixy arches her brow... 'sexual reasons'? You seem to slip farther and
farther from the primary point here. Oh, I forgot, it's YOUR festering
point about mucks you are concerned with, to hell with anything else on
this entire newsgroup, right?
>
>>Of course, if you're saying you have a place where we could hold CF10 that
>>you'll let us use for a reasonable price, well, that's different ... :)
>
>I'm sorry i don't.
What you *did* was show you have no reason to respond to this, you have
no understanding about what is being discussed, you have no real desire
to be productive in AFF, but you DO want to continue being a pain in the
ASCII.
===========================================================
Victry 'Vixy' Hyzenthlay
___________________
/ \ _
)""""\___ | - - - - - - - - - - | |_\____
)----| |\-| Vivacious Vixen-II |-/| | |\
)____|___|===========================| """|_)
`----' \| http://www.cris.com/~Vixy/|/"""""
"""|"""""""/"""\"""""""|"""
Victry{nospam}@- `=++++=" "=++++=' -@{remove}usa.net
FCFc2wAC-D+dH-M++P++R+T+++W+Z++Sf++RLEaC++nd++e++h+i+p+sf+
Po...@newsgroup.net
Matt Milam wrote in article <671lab$8...@sdrn.zippo.com>...
> Good to see some of you halfway getting the point.
Explain your 'point', morph-master Milam. Have you
any idea what this thread is about? It's certainly
not about mucks or the admin therein. What 'point'
therefore, do we or do we not get by your standard?
Wanderer
(Wanderer gives vixy a pawwave for coming up with an even more expressive
way of responding to Matthew Milam than Wanderer has.;)
(Wanderer would've had more jokes, though.;)
Before I get to the meat of the matter, I'd first like to apologise to Matt
for a rather condescending e-mail I sent him. I hadn't known that he was
responding in the newsgroup, and was quite snide with him.
In any event, Vixy is right ... so let's move on. After all, she said it
better than I would've.:)
Yours truly,
The outdone (for now;),
Wanderer****************'Where am I going?I don't quite know.
****************************'What does it matter where people go?
w00...@airmail.net'***Down to the woods where the bluebells grow.
*****************************Anywhere!Anywhere!Idon't know!
Wanderer
Elf Sternberg wrote in message <6715h5$lu5$1...@brokaw.wa.com>...
(snip)
>Admittedly, the law in California
>is curiously both more lax and strict than in your home state of
>Texas, but apparently Californians manage to be a part of the United
>States without too much culture shock. If they can, so can you.
>
has as strict a set of "morality" laws as Texas. At least, I can't think of
anyplace else offpaw that has laws to control what goes on in the bedroom.;)
Yours truly,
The legal,
Allen Kitchen
Elf Sternberg <e...@halcyon.com> wrote in article
<6715h5$lu5$1...@brokaw.wa.com>...
> In article <01bd0708$6b173de0$8f301bc6@spgspare>
> "Allen Kitchen" <allen...@blkbox.com> writes:
>
> > If my wife detects that post, I can kiss my trip
> >to CF9 goodbye. As I've said before, I'm not going to ram
> >my sexuality down anyone's eyesockets, and will appreciate
> >the same in return.
>
> Isn't it funny how those who live in the mainstream claim
> seeing anything unusual is considered "ramming it down their
> throats," but never stop to think twice that their demand for and
> exercise of their mainstreamishness is de facto ramming conformity
> down the throats of those who would rather be different.
Me? Mainstream? *snickering in the background*
Nobody is ramming uniformity upon anyone that I can see.
But I do detect a certain "It's my party and I'll fry who I want
to" attitude with some folks. It isn't a request for uniformity:
only courtesy.
> Try not to be someone else's thought belief, Allen, and
> they'll hopefully have the courtesy not to screw with yours. Go to
> CF9 and have fun; but if you expect to wander out into the world
> don't be surprised or upset if you see weird, unusual, and even
> wonderful things.
No one thinks for me. This includes you, and anyone
else in or out of the fandom. Your comment merely echoes what
I just said. I won't screw with others if they don't screw with me.
Sounds fair, no?
As I've said before, I'm going to have fun. The opinions
I make of this con will be SOLELY determined by what happens
there. I trust people won't go out of the way to offend anyone.
BTW: I like some of your stories Elf. So I'm hardly
faint-of-heart :)
Allen (shockwave) Kitchen
all...@blkbox.com
http://www.blkbox.com/~osprey/
David G. Bell
In article <2BF234A796C50F74.C6D5828BCD7171D1.D4D
w00...@airmail.net "Wanderer" writes:
> Elf Sternberg wrote in message <6715h5$lu5$1...@brokaw.wa.com>...
> (snip)
> >Admittedly, the law in California
> >is curiously both more lax and strict than in your home state of
> >Texas, but apparently Californians manage to be a part of the United
> >States without too much culture shock. If they can, so can you.
> >
> <chuckle> Nicely put, Elf, but I can honestly say I don't think anyplace
> has as strict a set of "morality" laws as Texas. At least, I can't think of
> anyplace else offpaw that has laws to control what goes on in the bedroom.;)
Georgia (USA) and the UK spring to mind as having laws which make
certain sexual acts illegal. Even though, in the UK, the same act can
be lawful for a male homosexual couple, but not for a male/female
heterosexual couple.
The trouble with all this is where one draws the line for public
activities. It doesn't need more than one incident to get a convention
into a lot of trouble. And a lot depends on just how things happen.
I've seen cross-dressing and bondage gear at conventions in the UK, but
it's never struck me as being aggressively promoted by anyone, which is,
alas, the impression I get from the reports of incidents at past
Confurences.
--
David G. Bell -- Farmer, SF Fan, Filker, Furry, and Punslinger..
bca...@encorevideo.com
> > CalAnim8r's post was in no way construable as an "attack". It was, in
> > fact, the bald-faced truth. As for CF8, which I attended (as I attended
> > CF4-7, and shall attend CF9), I personally was treated to the sight of
> > someone in full-torso bondage gear, ball gag, and leash being "walked" by
> > someone else.
> >
> > In the main lobby, next to the elevators.
>
> If my wife detects that post, I can kiss my trip
> to CF9 goodbye. As I've said before, I'm not going to ram
> my sexuality down anyone's eyesockets, and will appreciate
> the same in return. I'm going to CF9 to have fun and meet
> fellow furries. Not change my orientation, consider alternate
> lifestyles (I'm a wolf! How alternate do you want??) or boff
> people in the hallways.
> I am trying to keep an open mind for this trip. But
> all the talk is making me nervous.
I must say something here. I thought I went to CF8… It must have been at
a different Con. I didn't see sex in the hallways nor did I see ANYBODY
in full bondage gear. I did see people in Fursuits, Bodypaint, weird
people with plushies etc… I must have either blinders on or an SEP field
around me. I had a Fun time… I didn't get any sex (Guess that's my
problem huh? How did I miss the orgies???) I didn't buy any spooge. <Or
much of anything for that matter… Well... that's a lie I bought a
plushy>
I had no problems with the hotel (though I ended up on a couch). Now of
the thousand or so people who went to this Con… I am hearing 30 or so
people complaining on AFF… If anything I am wondering if AFF is giving
furry fandom a bad rep… I mean every time I come on here I see flame
after Flame. I end up wondering If these are the people I want to
associate with? Almost as bad as listening to Mac/PC flame wars… OY!
(I realize I am setting myself up for a flame here.. Since I am
criticizing and that tends to make one defensive… I guess I am doing the
same thing here… If you feel defensive about the previous statement
please analyze WHY you are feeling defensive… this may save a flame.)
Now I have been looking at furry fandom for about a year. Though I have
been furry all my life. Looking back, I know how I have felt about
things. Long before "Mark and Rod's" influence I have felt in certain
ways about films and animation involving animals… (Not all of those
Feelings have been <GRIN> 'pure'… but then… I am furry… I am also
human.) This makes me As weird as the Next fur and I am happy to find out
I am not alone or crazy… It feels nice to be Accepted. I can now buy tons
of plushies and have friends that say "COOL!"… I don't have to deal what
that "High School" attitude where I am put down for doing something
different.
Now I think everybody should look at furry as it is… And I am sorry to
tell you… it can be spoogy… no matter how angry that makes you… this is
not Marks fault… if it is… then I will say he is possibly the most
masterful manipulator living today… I think the people flaming him are
giving him FAR to much credit. Yes he has had some influence running the
con… But he NEVER made me feel the way I do. I will not give him that
credit. I more wonder why Somebody would forge some email threading him
online. If you take a GOOD look at the Original post… It is a fake. It
was forged from a terminal at Santa Monica College. Wow… Now THAT'S a
good source for information… Hrm… Forgot this IS Usenet….
I guess since we don't have 1000 people coming on here and trashing the
con <And I do believe Most all the furries at the con DO have internet
access… As most furries have some SORT Of access today> then I can assume
they did have a good time. The problem I have with Usenet Is it gives a
Megaphone to people… Makes them sound like they are talking for TONS of
people.
I wonder if the sci-fi Cons go though this? "Woah! Look a K&S Story!
Yuck! They are FAR To weird for me!"
I wonder why anyone would run a con… You get flamed up the wazoo on the
NET… You will Get accused of anything possible… You WILL loose money…
Friends… Sanity… Time… And what do you get???? Not much in return… as we
all know from human nature… If somebody enjoyed himself or herself… they
won't say much… but If they are in any way inconvenienced… WATCH OUT! God
forbid you make mistakes… If you are able to run a con you must be
perfect.
Oh I have seen those 'Books' that Cal saw and YES there was spooge in
them… Though they are not Books of spooge… they are books sorted by….
Artist. Yes there is a Terry Smith book… an Eric Schwartz book… Etc… and
guess WHAT? All these major big furry artists have done Spooge!
Personally I loved the Schwartz book… but that's me…. I don't get into
the artwork… I like the plushies.
(Before I run from the huge fireball heading my way… I am NOT pointing
this message at anybody specific… 'scuse me while I duck and cover)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Caron | Cottleston, Cottleston, Cottleston Pie
BCa...@Encorevideo.com | A Fish Can't whistle and neither can I
Encore Hollywood | Ask me a riddle and I'll reply:
3D Technician/Data Wrangler | Cottleston, Cottleston, Cottleston Pie
---------------------------------------------------------------------
etho...@flash.net
In
Article<2BF234A796C50F74.C6D5828B...@library-proxy.airnew
s.net>, <w00...@airmail.net> write:
> Elf Sternberg wrote in message <6715h5$lu5$1...@brokaw.wa.com>...
> (snip)
> >Admittedly, the law in California
> >is curiously both more lax and strict than in your home state of
> >Texas, but apparently Californians manage to be a part of the United
> >States without too much culture shock. If they can, so can you.
> >
> <chuckle> Nicely put, Elf, but I can honestly say I don't think anyplace
> has as strict a set of "morality" laws as Texas. At least, I can't think of
> anyplace else offpaw that has laws to control what goes on in the bedroom.;)
How about every state that still has sodomy laws?
Eric the .5b
etho...@flash.net
In Article<34941f7d...@news.psnw.com>, <walk...@psnw.com> write:
> >In article <349213c4...@news.psnw.com>
> > walk...@psnw.com (WalksFar) writes:
> >
> >> I saw exactly what you refer to. Roy Pound and i had the
> >>same feelings of revulsion and anger. The "public" display of one's
> >>own "lifestyle," shoving it into the faces of others was inappropriate
> >>and disturbing. THAT part should be kept behind closed doors. IF
> >>that is what you refer to, then we are in agreement!
> >
> > Why should they? Shouldn't they demand that you keep your
> >lifestyle behind closed doors as well?
> >
> > Elf
>
> I keep my lifestyle where it belongs, IN PRIVATE!
If you're actually refering to the meaning of the word "lifestyle",
no, you don't. If you are refering to "sexuality", perhaps you do. Or
do you ever show any public affection for, or otherwise acknowledge the
status of, any significant other? Then, no, you don't completely do that,
either.
> I do NOT
> appreciate "blow-jobs" in the lobby,
Then keep your pants up and zipped.
> "bondage queens" with whips and
> slaves out in the open doing their "thing,"
By that, do you mean walking around dressed as they were,
or did these people actually *do* anything objectionable to you?
>or "Drag Queens" flaunting
> themselves about in ways inappropriate to the spirit of the Con!
If someone is genuinely being publically lewd, and it is not
appreciated, that is rude and objectionable. However, you're one of
the few people here who claims to have seen such things at CF.
> I do
> NOT wish to see ConFurence labeled wrongly as some were jokingly
> referring it to as "FagCon" last year.
Frankly, I wouldn't want to go to the same convention with people
who would call such an assembly "FagCon", regardless of what the convention
focus was, so I can't see any great loss at not having intolerant people
filled with "revulsion and anger" there. Not that this has any real effect
on me, since my sexual preferences (which does not, for everyone, count as
a "lifestyle") are probably close enough to the mainstream to not alarm
such individuals.
> Lifestyles are not the question. I have no beef with
> "whatever" is is they feel their life mode is.
Ooh. *THEM* You gotta keep an eye on *THEM* or they might pervert
the kids. (And can I add that you are a tad quotation-mark happy?)
> Their
> "in-your-face-take-it-or-leave-it" attitude is what is in questionable
> taste and even the staff of ConFurence has railed against it.
What? They aren't properly *ashamed* of what they enjoy?! The
horror.
> They DO
> NOT HAVE the right to shove it into everyone else's face and force it
> down our throats.
So you're now alleging that a bunch of BDSMers grabbed you, tied
you up, and made you watch a scene?
> I do not care WHAT they choose to do as long as it
> is NOT in public! "Intimate Behavior" does NOT belong in full view of
> con attendees and the public mundanes at large. If anything it
> constitutes lewd and lascivious behavior and is an arrestible offense
> and I, for one, would feel no pity for them if they were!
I do not agree that just because a harmless behavior is found to
be distasteful by others that someone should be arrested for it, even
if it is done in public. But then, freedom is the eternal burden of
knowing that somewhere, somehow, people are doing things you consider
utterly stupid, offensive, pointless, or ridiculous - and knowing they
have every right to do so.
Eric the .5b
cal...@goodnet.com
In article <34945589...@news.smart.net>,
xyd...@neverspam.aol.com wrote:
> That pretty much sums it up. Folks here have mentioned they haven't
> at CF8, I didn't see _any_ of the stuff people tell horror stories
> about. But then, I went to CF8 with the intention of having a good
> time, not with the intention of looking for things to complain about.
I personally don't know of anyone who goes to CF specifically to find
things to complain about...if anyone does, I feel sorry for them and the
time they waste working on being miserable.
But then, going and looking for something is a helluva lot different
from waiting for an elevator, turning and finding oneself staring into
someone else's ball gag. Might's well say one shouldn't be offended by
someone taking a dump on the floor ("Hey, if you WANT to go to CF and
find people crapping on the floor, you will..."). I can ignore plenty,
but I'm not about to rip my eyeballs out to cater to someone else's need
to scamper about in full-torso bondage gear, either.
Tolerance works BOTH ways.
cal...@goodnet.com
In article <882213937...@dejanews.com>,
bca...@encorevideo.com wrote:
> I must say something here. I thought I went to CF8… It must have been at
> a different Con. I didn't see sex in the hallways nor did I see ANYBODY
> in full bondage gear. I did see people in Fursuits, Bodypaint, weird
> people with plushies etc… I must have either blinders on or an SEP field
> around me.
Not really. Fact is, it's really only a relatively few clueless/careless
people causing most of the problems. Problem is, there's more and more of
those kind of people every year, in part because such things weren't
dealt with the first time around in an adequate manner. Hopefully, this
year's policies will result in a reversal of the matter, and that'll
settle it.
> Now I think everybody should look at furry as it is… And I am sorry to
> tell you… it can be spoogy… no matter how angry that makes you… this is
> not Marks fault…
No one is suggesting it is. Nor is anyone complaining about the fact that
furry fandom *has* spooge. The problems are that some people seem to be
abusing the natural tolerance of furries (as strange as that may sound in
the middle of a flamewar, we ARE highly tolerant by and large) to promote
non-furry lifestyles such as bondage in public areas at ConFurence.
There have also been problems with dealers at CF who deal primarily in
NC- 17 and X-rated work who don't seem to understand (or who are openly
contemptuous of the fact) that there are children running around the
area. I've even been verbally attacked by people who think that pictures
of deer being sodomized is perfectly okay for a six-year-old to view.
This latter problem, fortunately, is being strongly addressed by the CF
staff this year.
> I guess since we don't have 1000 people coming on here and trashing the
> con <And I do believe Most all the furries at the con DO have internet
> access… As most furries have some SORT Of access today> then I can assume
> they did have a good time.
Be careful...it generally makes an "ass" out of "u" and "me" when you
*assume* something. Fact is, not everyone who goes to CF has a computer.
Not all of those who have a computer have a modem. Not all of those who
have a modem have time to surf the newsgroups. Not all of those who surf
the newsgroups have time to do more than "lurk" (lurking, in fact,
comprises the bulk of newsgroup activity throughout UseNet). And so on.
Having thirty people griping about any one thing is a fairly rare thing
on UseNet, especially when a lot of those doing the griping are pros
within the fandom. Pros, having even *less* time than fans to do griping,
generally aren't heard from at all unless something REALLY grabs their
attention. Ergo, this is probably a lot more serious of a problem than
one might think.
> The problem I have with Usenet Is it gives a
> Megaphone to people… Makes them sound like they are talking for TONS of
> people.
On occasion, they are. The trick is to keep as open a mind as possible and
review a problem on its merits (or lack thereof), rather than hoopla.
> I wonder if the sci-fi Cons go though this? "Woah! Look a K&S Story!
> Yuck! They are FAR To weird for me!"
Worse, on occasion. I've seen people get into a raging screaming fit over
how many lumps are supposed to be on a Klingon's forehead.
> Oh I have seen those 'Books' that Cal saw and YES there was spooge in
> them… Though they are not Books of spooge… they are books sorted by….
> Artist. Yes there is a Terry Smith book… an Eric Schwartz book… Etc… and
> guess WHAT? All these major big furry artists have done Spooge!
> Personally I loved the Schwartz book… but that's me…. I don't get into
> the artwork… I like the plushies.
Well, think about it. If you're throwing a party to bring more people
into the fandom, and EVERY book you have contains explicit sex, then
should you be surprised when people who *aren't* already used to or
interested in that sort of material shy away? Would it be any more
reasonable to suggest that newcomers shouldn't be put off by loads of
nothing but ultra-cutesy stuff? For an intro party, convention-supplied
materials really *should* be kept in the PG/R range until newcomers are
comfortable with the concept.
> (Before I run from the huge fireball heading my way… I am NOT pointing
> this message at anybody specific… 'scuse me while I duck and cover)
Actually, yours was one of the most thoughtful and openminded posts I've
seen in this thread to date. Kudos! -:)
cal...@goodnet.com
In article <66vu7e$nj6$1...@news3.realtime.net>,
Yup. And they'll prolly argue about it 'til the problem's fixed.
Fortunately, CF is taking some measures to deal with it, so hopefully
things'll tone down after this next January.
Richard Chandler
Thursday at CF8, at noon, as I am registering for my room, there's is a
loud smack behind me and the woman at the desk gets a shocked look on her
face and jumps at the sound. A young lady has just applied a whip to the
back of one of the two fellows who have offered her an opportunity to try
it on them not fifteen feet from the front desk. And that is a fact.
--
On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog... but they can tell right
off the bat if you're an idiot! -- Me
http://www.teleport.com/~mauser/ Gallery Web Page
"Yeah, I've got ADD, wanna make something of.... oooh, cool. Look!"
? the platypus {aka David Formosa}
>On 5 Dec 1997 21:04:14 GMT, e...@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg) wrote:
[...]
>> Why should they? Shouldn't they demand that you keep your
>>lifestyle behind closed doors as well?
> I keep my lifestyle where it belongs, IN PRIVATE!
Then what do you live when you are in public? A lifestyle is how you live
your life, the only peaple who do not have a lifestle are dead[1].
>I do NOT appreciate "blow-jobs" in the lobby,
You have verifable everdennce of this occuring? It seems that there is
two connventions going on, the one that every furry attends, and the one
that every furry talks about. And there is a dark sinical part of me that
suggest just perhaps peaple wished thay attened the one that didn't exist.
--
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header.
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep. I do not reply to mungged
Support NoCeM http://www.cm.org/ addresses.
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yucky' a convincing argument
Mark Atwood
walk...@psnw.com (WalksFar) writes:
>
> I keep my lifestyle where it belongs, IN PRIVATE! I do NOT
> appreciate "blow-jobs" in the lobby
Okay, pink. Put up or shut up. Did YOU see a blow-job in the lobby.
Can you present anyone who will testify they saw a blow-job in the lobby?
> Lifestyles are not the question. I have no beef with
> "whatever" is is they feel their life mode is. Their
> "in-your-face-take-it-or-leave-it" attitude is what is in questionable
> taste and even the staff of ConFurence has railed against it. They DO
> NOT HAVE the right to shove it into everyone else's face and force it
> down our throats. I do not care WHAT they choose to do as long as it
> is NOT in public! "Intimate Behavior" does NOT belong in full view of
> con attendees and the public mundanes at large. If anything it
> constitutes lewd and lascivious behavior and is an arrestible offense
> and I, for one, would feel no pity for them if they were!
Have you ever helds hands, hugged or kissed your girlfriend or wife
any place other than in you bedroom?
Farlo
They asked for it. >:)
Amara
> > Oh I have seen those 'Books' that Cal saw and YES there was spooge in
> > them… Though they are not Books of spooge… they are books sorted by….
> > Artist. Yes there is a Terry Smith book… an Eric Schwartz book… Etc… and
> > guess WHAT? All these major big furry artists have done Spooge!
> > Personally I loved the Schwartz book… but that's me…. I don't get into
> > the artwork… I like the plushies.
Hmm, all of those major big Furry artists. I don't know if anyone would
consider me to be major or big, but I represent some of the artists that
don't even think about Spooge.. okay, so that's a lie, I'm an aduklt, I
do think about things like that, but I certainly don't draw it. :)
I'll have a new _g_ rated portfolio out at CF9, I'll be at CF9, any
requests for spooge from this Fox-Shark will be answered with a swift
kick to the butt :)
Gnar! :)
>
> Well, think about it. If you're throwing a party to bring more people
> into the fandom, and EVERY book you have contains explicit sex, then
> should you be surprised when people who *aren't* already used to or
> interested in that sort of material shy away? Would it be any more
> reasonable to suggest that newcomers shouldn't be put off by loads of
> nothing but ultra-cutesy stuff? For an intro party, convention-supplied
> materials really *should* be kept in the PG/R range until newcomers are
> comfortable with the concept.
I think keeping things from G-R, there is G rated furry stuff :) But
your point is good, I was, thankfully, not exposed to the hard core
stuff initially or I can tell you now, I certainly wouldn't be here
right now posting this.
I admit that I try to distance myself from Adult stuff, I wo't publish
anything in an Adults only Zine (OBAmara: I had 2 very very mild pieces
in a SFL once, but they could have been classified as PG-13 works, just
soem nipples and no suggestion. I don't even do nipples any more
because of personal choice). <shrug> Personal choice :)
I'm not condemning anyone for doing erotica, and I'm real happy that
people have been respecing my nothing higher than low PG policy. :)
I do toe the line occasionally, but hey... I'm only human :)
Amy, will have new art at the Art Show, including a piece entitled: Hung
like a Horse... :)
--
"We count 30 rebel ships, Lord Vader, but our men are so pissed they
couldn't hit a bull's butt with a bass fiddle."
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
Amy 'Amara' Pronovost: Anthro/Star Wars Artist, Official RASSM
Cartoon Character, Biologist, Fox-Shark, Psychovixen and Arty Ewok :)
* http://rat.org/amara * http://rat.org/amara/starwars.htm *
am...@vision.nais.com
Amara
Dr. Cat wrote:
>
> Geez, are people arguing about this same old stuff again?
>
That's exactly what I thought when I loaded the NG for the first time in
months :)
> (Disclaimer: I'm not arguing about it. Nope, not me!)
So, Dr Cat, anything new? :)
Amy
cal...@goodnet.com
In article <v6zpm1r...@tick.dev.ampersand.com>,
Mark Atwood <z...@ampersand.com> wrote:
> walk...@psnw.com (WalksFar) writes:
> > I keep my lifestyle where it belongs, IN PRIVATE! I do NOT
> > appreciate "blow-jobs" in the lobby
>
> Okay, pink. Put up or shut up. Did YOU see a blow-job in the lobby.
Evidently you didn't notice the quotes surrounding "blow-jobs", nor did
you notice the sarcasm evident in the original post. But what I'm getting
from this is that you *would* draw the line at blow-jobs in the lobby. Is
there anything LESS that you would consider inappropriate for public
behavior? Say, wearing a ball-gag/collar/leash/cuffs/harness ensemble?
"Put up"? Yeah, I saw it. I don't, unfortunately, make a habit of
carrying a videocam everywhere I go "just in case", so I guess you're
just going to blow off my eyewitness account as "hearsay", or should I
have more faith in human nature?
> Have you ever helds hands, hugged or kissed your girlfriend or wife
> any place other than in you bedroom?
Holding hands, hugging and kissing *are* not and never *have* been issues
here. No one's griping about that kind of behavior. What they ARE griping
about are things like public bondage displays, access by minors to adult
material, and other public lewdness/obscenity such as dropping one's
shorts and presenting one's butt to the room at large (which was
witnessed by a few dozen people this last CF, next to the main lobby's
piano).
Kindly drop the double standards if you want to discuss this
rationally.
cal...@goodnet.com
In article <882278358.273073@cabal>, ? the platypus {aka David Formosa}
<dfor...@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> wrote:
> In <34941f7d...@news.psnw.com> walk...@psnw.com (WalksFar) writes:
> >On 5 Dec 1997 21:04:14 GMT, e...@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg) wrote:
> >> Why should they? Shouldn't they demand that you keep your
> >>lifestyle behind closed doors as well?
> > I keep my lifestyle where it belongs, IN PRIVATE!
> Then what do you live when you are in public? A lifestyle is how you live
> your life, the only peaple who do not have a lifestle are dead[1].
Let me get this straight: if one's lifestyle is bondage, and they go on a
public bus WITHOUT bondage gear on, they are dead. Nope, doesn't make a
whit of sense. C'mon, use that grey matter 'twixt the ears...or were you
just being sarcastic? -;)
WalksFar
On 16 Dec 1997 13:19:20 GMT, ? the platypus {aka David Formosa}
<dfor...@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> wrote:
>In <34941f7d...@news.psnw.com> walk...@psnw.com (WalksFar) writes:
>
>>On 5 Dec 1997 21:04:14 GMT, e...@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg) wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>>> Why should they? Shouldn't they demand that you keep your
>>>lifestyle behind closed doors as well?
>
>> I keep my lifestyle where it belongs, IN PRIVATE!
>
>Then what do you live when you are in public? A lifestyle is how you live
>your life, the only peaple who do not have a lifestle are dead[1].
You are missing the point. Certain behavior, ie "sexual
intimacy," is inappropriate in public. THAT part of any lifestykle
belongs behind closed doors. Pardon me for not making that clear. I
was in a huff when i wrote the above!
>
>>I do NOT appreciate "blow-jobs" in the lobby,
>
>You have verifable everdennce of this occuring? It seems that there is
>two connventions going on, the one that every furry attends, and the one
>that every furry talks about. And there is a dark sinical part of me that
>suggest just perhaps peaple wished thay attened the one that didn't exist.
That was an example I used to express my revulsion. the
actual occurrance involved two "gentlemen" in the lobby of the Atrium
who were fondling each other's genitalia and jerking off.
Fortunately I am NOT treated to this sort of stuff normally.
I go to CF to have fun, attend SIG's, be with friends and agent art
work. UNFORTUNATELY, sometimes I do get a glimpse of shit that is
nothing short of disgusting. that was one of them.
WalksFar . . . .
WalksFar
On 16 Dec 1997 12:16:57 -0500, Mark Atwood <z...@ampersand.com> wrote:
>walk...@psnw.com (WalksFar) writes:
>>
>> I keep my lifestyle where it belongs, IN PRIVATE! I do NOT
>> appreciate "blow-jobs" in the lobby
>
>Okay, pink. Put up or shut up. Did YOU see a blow-job in the lobby.
>
>Can you present anyone who will testify they saw a blow-job in the lobby?
Let us get something straight. If you want witnesses, i can
sukpply them. I used that as an example. I should have couched my
words differently. I did see something in the lobby that revulsed me,
but that was at the Atrium.
>
>> Lifestyles are not the question. I have no beef with
>> "whatever" is is they feel their life mode is. Their
>> "in-your-face-take-it-or-leave-it" attitude is what is in questionable
>> taste and even the staff of ConFurence has railed against it. They DO
>> NOT HAVE the right to shove it into everyone else's face and force it
>> down our throats. I do not care WHAT they choose to do as long as it
>> is NOT in public! "Intimate Behavior" does NOT belong in full view of
>> con attendees and the public mundanes at large. If anything it
>> constitutes lewd and lascivious behavior and is an arrestible offense
>> and I, for one, would feel no pity for them if they were!
>
>Have you ever helds hands, hugged or kissed your girlfriend or wife
>any place other than in you bedroom?
Sure! My living room, hotel room, front door when we meet for
a date, or special occasion, airport waiting rooms, bus stations,
railway stations when we meet or say good-bye, a quiet dark corner in
a romantic restaurant. Besides, a hug, a kiss, or holding hands is
acceptable, socially-condoned affection. Fondling genitalia in full
view or public nakedness is not. If I were to "boink" my lady in the
lobby of a hotel, in the elevators, or halls, I would expect to be
called down for it and even arrested. YOU, Sir(and I say that out of
polite respect), don't seem to know the difference between what is
socially acceptable and what is not. If you choose to "display"
yourself in public, then be prepared for possible legal action. If
not, what is the point of your venom? The answer: Nothing!
This has been bantered back and forth long enough. I am tired
of wasting energy on it. 'Nuff said . . . !
WalksFar . . . .
>
Xydexx the Inflatable Unicorn
cal...@goodnet.com wrote:
> I personally don't know of anyone who goes to CF specifically to find
> things to complain about...if anyone does, I feel sorry for them and the
> time they waste working on being miserable.
It never ceases to amaze me that no matter how much people say bad
behavior at cons offends them and gives us a bad reputation, they see
nothing wrong with showcasing it here, where it can do exactly the same
thing.
____________________________________________________________
Rev. Xydexx Squeakypony, K.S.C. - Ambassador to Furry Fandom
Xydexx's Anthrofurry Homepage "I am PONY, hear
http://www.smart.net/~xydexx/welcome.htm me SQUEAK."
Xydexx the Inflatable Unicorn
Richard Chandler wrote:
> Thursday at CF8, at noon, as I am registering for my room, there's is a
Watts Martin
On 16 Dec 1997 13:19:20 GMT, ? the platypus {aka David Formosa}
<dfor...@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> wrote:
>You have verifable everdennce of this occuring? It seems that there is
>two connventions going on, the one that every furry attends, and the one
>that every furry talks about. And there is a dark sinical part of me that
>suggest just perhaps peaple wished thay attened the one that didn't exist.
While I'm not that cynical (an assertion that'll probably surprise
some folks who know me), it's true that tales tend to grow--sometimes
wildly--in the telling. I have concerns about how furry fandom is
sometimes presented to neophytes, and most of them come from direct
experience of myself and friends, but--despite the fact that the
thread seemed to have started on THAT topic--it's largely an unrelated
issue. I'm not convinced the behavior of the guests at CF is that
much wilder than most other cons with 1,000+ attendees. Even if some
of the alleged incidents could really be confirmed, that wouldn't
change my view; our local Tampa con, Necronomicon, is considered
pretty laid back by some folks, but they were "successfully" banned
from returning to one hotel in the late '80s, a dubious accomplishment
that ConFurence has not (and hopefully never will) achieved.
--Watts
Allen Kitchen
Amara <am...@vision.nais.com> wrote in article
<34972B...@vision.nais.com>...
> Hmm, all of those major big Furry artists. I don't know if anyone would
> consider me to be major or big, but I represent some of the artists that
> don't even think about Spooge.. okay, so that's a lie, I'm an aduklt, I
> do think about things like that, but I certainly don't draw it. :)
I consider you one of the better artists in Furrydom. And
erotica does have it's place. So does non-erotica. Not everything
in furry fandom requires sex to be interesting, as you know. :)
Some R rated pieces stay on my computer, years after the spooge
has been deleted and forgotten. A G rated one forms my workstation
wallpaper. Lotsa folks comment on it (all good).
PS: my daughter has a new sound: GNAR! :)
Allen Kitchen (Shockwave)
all...@blkbox.com
http://www.blkbox.com/~osprey/
cal...@goodnet.com
xyd...@anthrofurry.aol.com wrote:
> It never ceases to amaze me that no matter how much people say bad
> behavior at cons offends them and gives us a bad reputation, they see
> nothing wrong with showcasing it here, where it can do exactly the same
> thing.
There is "showcasing", and there is "criticism". You're right, though, I
*do* see showcasing, most commonly on the part of those whose public
lewdness sparks the controversy in the first place. Your entire attitude
comes across as intolerant and inconsiderate, replete with double
standards that everyone but "your side" are supposed to live by.