Furry Citizenship: An Ultimatum

[WAND...@hush.com]

Shanda Fantasy Arts and many of the Kadaitcha Dancers have been talking
about this for a long time but I don't think any of you have been
paying attention. Sure we've got many furs making sarcastic quips
towards Sibe, but are any of you DOING anything about the piracy
problem? I don't think you care enough. Really, I don't. So let me
give you some motivation!

I know who you are. I know who downloaded the torrent. I know who has
friended Sibe via his livejournal logs. I know the artists who support
his piracy crimes and I know all the "friends of friends" who keep
quiet in the face of this injustice. It's time you all start acting
more like patrons and citizens and less like leeches and drama whores.
I'm fed up with you messing with this operation and getting my journals
banned, so I'm taking the war TO YOU. Mike and Carol Curtis drew the
line months ago, but I don't think it reaches the problem, so I'm
drawing it further. This is no longer about boycotting conventions.
It's about boycotting YOU.

I also know who chooses to do business with the rogue artists that back
Sibe. So, you've bought some stuff from Shawntae Howard? Good.
Points for you. How about DaiWuff? Your social demerits will be
unbearable. You can either support the furry fandom, or you can
support Sibe. Either way, the Kadaitcha Dancers will make your choices
consequential.

Already SFA has proceeded with a lawsuit, but the music doesn't stop
there. The Kadaitcha Dancers will not rest until everyone has paid
their karma debt, so it's time for you to take responsiblity for your
actions for once.

- WANDJINA, THE FINAL DANCER

[Swipecat]

WAND...@hush.com wrote:
>Shanda Fantasy Arts and many of the Kadaitcha Dancers have been talking
>about this for a long time but I don't think any of you have been
>paying attention. Sure we've got many furs making sarcastic quips
>towards Sibe, but are any of you DOING anything about the piracy
>problem? I don't think you care enough. Really, I don't. So let me
>give you some motivation!

I've been taking one of the more extreme anti-Sibe stances in this group
so far, but THIS has got me annoyed. There's just the possibility that
this is a Sibe supporter trying to damage his opponents, but I'll take
it at face value for the moment.

This is the sort of crap that got Burned Fur hated so much. Scattergun
accusations against a whole group whether they have the power to do
anything about a problem or not.

> .. It's time you all start acting
>more like patrons and citizens and less like leeches and drama whores. ...

YOU ALL?

You pompous prat.

>I also know who chooses to do business with the rogue artists that back
> Sibe. So, you've bought some stuff from Shawntae Howard? Good.
>Points for you. How about DaiWuff? Your social demerits will be
>unbearable. You can either support the furry fandom, or you can
>support Sibe. Either way, the Kadaitcha Dancers will make your choices
>consequential.

I didn't like what DaiWuff/White-Wolf was doing either, and I attacked
some of Sibe's supporters myself, but trying to cause trouble for
friends-of-friends in the way that you're suggesting is GUARANTEED to
alienate people and cause a backlash against yourself.

>Already SFA has proceeded with a lawsuit, but the music doesn't stop
>there. The Kadaitcha Dancers will not rest until everyone has paid
>their karma debt, so it's time for you to take responsiblity for your
>actions for once.

Think a lot of yourself, don't you?

--
Farry/Swipecat

[Swipecat]

Following up on the thought that this might be a hoax by a Sibe
supporter, I looked at the NNTP-Posting-Host: 146.219.19.22
(nhttp.scs.es). Somewhere in Spain, then.

www.scs.edu has a webpage with the title:
"Departament de Sanitat i Seguretat Social. Servei Català de la Salut"
and a redirect to the webpage www10.gencat.net/catsalut/cat/index.htm

Is that a Catalan language?

Anyway, unless one of the Kadaitcha Dancers is Catalan, I'd guess that
the poster of the message hacked into a Catalan newsserver. Would the
KDs preach about proprietary rights and then do something like that?
Admittedly, they've come across as something less than mature, but
still...

--
Farry/Swipecat

[DLNorton]

These kinds of diatribes is why I pulled away from the fandom in the
first place. A lot of folks had to go and think they are so
self-important that you were either with them or against them. I
personaly don't care about what Sibe does either way...niether do I
support him...and niether do I support the fandom this way. And if you
think that you can boycott whatever I do...then have at it. Most of my
fan base is quite varied..some "furry", some "other"...so it just
doesn't matter what direction you take. I'm just one artist in a vast
sea of artists. Granted, I've made a few personal friends here and
there within this fandom.

So boycott away!! If you think this'll get you that recognition you're
looking for...then have at it. More power to you. Oh...and I don't go
around looking at torrnets..mainly because I'm not savvy enough to use
the programs, and from what I understand..from other sources... my
stuff isn't in any of them...as far as I know. (Unless something
changes)

-D.L.Norton

[DLNorton]

If it is a hoax Swipecat..they really put a lot of effort and
vocabulary in it just to get a lot of anti-ANTI-Sibe shit going...

-D.L.Norton

[Swipecat]

"DLNorton" <shad...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>If it is a hoax Swipecat..they really put a lot of effort and
>vocabulary in it just to get a lot of anti-ANTI-Sibe shit going...

Maybe... maybe... Then again, it's sooo stupidly counterproductive...
and I guess I could've written something like that myself, if I'd put my
mind to damaging the KDs.

Another thought - a websearch on talk about Sibe shows that some of the
people that go out of their way to mock furries like SA members do
relish Sibe's wrecking effect on the fandom - and some of them are good
writers in their satirical nastiness...

Anyway, I'll stop speculating now.

--
Farry/Swipecat

[White Wolf]

Swipecat wrote:
> Following up on the thought that this might be a hoax by a Sibe
> supporter, I looked at the NNTP-Posting-Host: 146.219.19.22
> (nhttp.scs.es). Somewhere in Spain, then.
>
> www.scs.edu has a webpage with the title:
> "Departament de Sanitat i Seguretat Social. Servei Català de la Salut"
> and a redirect to the webpage www10.gencat.net/catsalut/cat/index.htm

I get Anchorage, AK. o.o

-White

[Caleb]

You, sir, are not intimidating. Ok?

How about realizing that the fact that my fiancee is friends with Sibe,
and attempted to download the torrent (She was mostly interested in the
Sonic episodes), doesn't mean that her friends for years are
automatically going to turn their backs on her. It's not possible dude.
I mean, seriously you're making a laughing stock of yourself. There are
a LOT of furs who don't even know who Sibe is or even care. There are
even more furs that would much rather have a good time at furry social
gatherings than care about who's stealing pr0n from who.

How about we do something new for once. Me and Dai are going to be at
MFM. If you'd like to talk about these issues you have with the voices
in your head...or whatever...please, I invite you to do so. I'm more
than willing (and eager) to talk these things out, perhaps shine the
light on the who and why of my choice in friends, and I'm fully willing
to listen to your side provided you can do so with an even temper.

However; I have a shade of doubt that someone could be stupid and
assinine enough to post this tripe all over the internet and expect to
be taken seriously. Because I don't. This is way too funny and too
counterproductive to serve anyone's cause other than that of a troll.
Yet, self-defeating of me if that's the case to bother to reply, but I'm
willing to give this the benefit of a doubt.

Anyway; You're really not hurting anyone socially than yourself. Ive
seen one or two people posting on this group, people who very much don't
like Sibe, that I consider to be good people but obviously don't realise
that I DONT ASSIST SIBE IN PIRATING FURRY ART. I have no desire to. Ive
yet to see much of anything come out of furry, artwise, that I'm really
interested in. But it's a moot point really. If I'm friends with Sibe,
even if I just list him as a friend on a blog, I'm somehow this horrible
person. Ok. Fine. BOYCOTT ME. Alright.

Caleb
Badger

[Spirou]

In article <el54h112k86q3148e...@4ax.com>,
Swipecat <swip...@see.replyto.header> wrote:

> Following up on the thought that this might be a hoax by a Sibe
> supporter, I looked at the NNTP-Posting-Host: 146.219.19.22
> (nhttp.scs.es). Somewhere in Spain, then.
>
> www.scs.edu has a webpage with the title:
> "Departament de Sanitat i Seguretat Social. Servei Català de la Salut"
> and a redirect to the webpage www10.gencat.net/catsalut/cat/index.htm
>
> Is that a Catalan language?

Yes.

"Department of Health and Social Security. Catalonian Health Services"

They're located on Barcelona, Spain, and they're a government entity.
Whoever posted this is using Mozilla/5.0 with Windows NT 5.1 thru
Google, so using this, plus the IP (146.219.19.22), I get several hits
on pages related to Video Poker, online poker, and Poker Strategies.

Whoever he is, he is really into Poker,..

...Really, really into Online Poker, Specially Texas Hold'em:
http://www.pacificpoker.com/
http://www.888-poker.com
http://www.poker-on-net.com
http://www.poker-tourney.com
http://www.partypoker.com

Looking up an old Sibe post, he is using Mozilla/5.0 with Windows NT 5.1
posting thru Google, so unless somebody knows if he likes to play poker,
I'm out of suggestions.

> Anyway, unless one of the Kadaitcha Dancers is Catalan, I'd guess that
> the poster of the message hacked into a Catalan newsserver. Would the
> KDs preach about proprietary rights and then do something like that?
> Admittedly, they've come across as something less than mature, but
> still...

Of the two entities, only "He who must not be named" has been accuse,
and has bragged, of hacking into computers,... Wait a minute,... He did
hacked into a Spanish server once a while back:

http://groups.google.com/group/fur.artwork.erotica/browse_frm/thread/5c45
ef39b1c71d50/eabe153a7cb02664?lnk=st&q=sibe+telefonica&rnum=1&hl=en

...When he was still running #furryxdcc, he accessed a lone server used
by Spain's Telefonica (Spain Goverment's Phone carrier) to distribute a
.zip full of Furry warez:

http://personal.telefonica.terra.es/web/mp3-zone/New_starter_pack_setup.z
ip

That's all I could quickly find. Just FYI

[Spirou]

In article <v4sQe.2244$tB5.30@okepread06>,
White Wolf <whit...@denofwovles.com> wrote:

> I get Anchorage, AK. o.o
>
> -White

Try this one:
http://www.ripe.net/fcgi-bin/whois?searchtext=146.219.19.22

[Josh M.]

Eep, forgot to post whoever "Poker" guy is, he has only been using this
IP since August.

[Lord Ryven]

hi,
I'm Lord Ryven, and I'm sure you've heard of me.

I don't really follow fag current events but my friend told me directly
about your thing with sibe, and I'm inspired to help the cause...

So I'm gonna help feed the torrent with my T3 line...

on top of that, I'm considering paying sibe 500 bucks a month to
maintain his activities jjust cause I think you guys are some goofy ass
fags.

Thank you..

The Greater God,

Lord Ryven

PS.. I realy wonder if anyone is going to rally around this fag.

[Caleb]

Dude....you're my fuckin hero.

seriously

Caleb

[Wanderer]

"Lord Ryven" <L0rd...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1125279067.5...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> hi,
> I'm Lord Ryven, and I'm sure you've heard of me.

<shrug> Nope. Doesn't ring a bell.

>
> I don't really follow fag current events but my friend told me directly
> about your thing with sibe, and I'm inspired to help the cause...

You mean you're actually going to learn that calling a fandom overwhelmingly
interested in women's overendowed bustlines "fags" is about as ridiculous as
calling Richard Simmons "masculine"?

>
> So I'm gonna help feed the torrent with my T3 line...

Ooo, an independently wealthy idiot. Hello, Mr. Perot.

>
> on top of that, I'm considering paying sibe 500 bucks a month to
> maintain his activities jjust cause I think you guys are some goofy ass
> fags.

Hey, your money, waste it if you want. Judging by the stories, he'll
probably ask to "repay" you, so if you swing that way... well, and you're a
guy...

What's that? Well, the fandom isn't, no. He seems to be, however...

>
> Thank you..
>
> The Greater God,

I'm sorry, Apprentice Muse of Comedy just doesn't qualify...

>
> Lord Ryven
>
>
> PS.. I realy wonder if anyone is going to rally around this fag.
>

No, Sibe isn't quite that popular. Just ask him.

Yours wolfishly,

The bemused,

Wanderer
wand...@ticnet.com

"Where am I going? I don't quite know.
What does it matter *where* people go?
Down to the woods where the bluebells grow!
Anywhere! Anywhere! *I* don't know!"
-- a. a. milne

[Terrible Trotsky]

Swipecat <swip...@see.replyto.header> bowed down before Ramesses in

the palace of alt.fan.furry and said:

>some of the
>people that go out of their way to mock furries

I've noticed that lot of the people who mock furries "force"
themselves to sit through explicit anal action furry animations so
that they can complain afterwards how awful and evil and horrible and
mind bending it is.

They're just as furry as you or me. :D

It all comes down to Internet cool.

Being a furry is about enthuasism for and enjoyment of Anthros.

Being Internet cool is about hating enthusiasm and honesty and
maintaining an ironic and mocking detachment from everything.

---
"no loot equalled this one, nor in the indies was there
ever found such wealth"

[Terrible Trotsky]

"DLNorton" <shad...@yahoo.com> bowed down before Ramesses in the

palace of alt.fan.furry and said:

>So boycott away!! If you think this'll get you that recognition you're
>looking for...then have at it. More power to you. Oh...and I don't go
>around looking at torrnets..mainly because I'm not savvy enough to use
>the programs

Just download bitlord, click on a torrent link, uncheck the boxes for
the stuff you don't want, and then sit back and wait for it to
download.

[iBuck]

> Shanda Fantasy Arts and many of the Kadaitcha Dancers have been talking
> about this for a long time but I don't think any of you have been
> paying attention.

That's because both of you are basically demanding that other people
takes steps that won't actually stop sibe, and are backing your demands
with threats, funny how people reject that kind of tactic...

>Sure we've got many furs making sarcastic quips
> towards Sibe, but are any of you DOING anything about the piracy
> problem? I don't think you care enough. Really, I don't. So let me
> give you some motivation!
>

>Mike and Carol Curtis drew the
> line months ago, but I don't think it reaches the problem, so I'm
> drawing it further.

Of course not, they drew the line in completly the wrong place...

>This is no longer about boycotting conventions. It's about boycotting YOU.

Oh, more ineffectual calls to action that won't actually -do- anything
to gum up sibe's efforts...

Of course, if you end up boycotting everyone who you don't think is
being -quite- rabid enough, you'll prolly just find that you're the
ones who have effectivly become boycotted...

> I also know who chooses to do business with the rogue artists that back
> Sibe.

Riiigghttt.... and being this omniscient font of info, you've provided
unimpeachable evidence, able to -solidly- tie the actions of "Sibe" to
the Ross Reddick and prove that he in fact is the one uploading stuff
to the torrent, and I don't just mean bragging on usenet, but IP
traces that are backed by the ISP's in question?

> Already SFA has proceeded with a lawsuit

News to me, but about time....

Much better trying to shut him down legally, getting his equimpmet
seized or getting him locked up, that calling for Sibe to be banned
fromthe small group of conventions that SFA can threaten, which may or
may not be his source for materials, and which almost certianly not
stop him...

Of course it's a little hazy exactally how the conventions that refuse
to ban Sibe are "enabling" him.. I'd guess it's not the SIGs, how to
host a pirate torrent panels have been noticably absent, I didn't get
hit up to share files at the dance at AC, and while the folks at the
masquerade -might- have padded their costumes with CD's full of pirated
art, they were throwing ballons out to the audiance, not bootleg art...

It must be the dealer's room that's the source of the problem, a place
where I've yet to see the constaff putting guns to the dealers head and
forcing them to sell to folks who come up to their table. Sibe is
getting his stuff by -buying- it there, so why is it the con's
responsibilty to throw themselves beteeen a dealer and the slimeball's
cash?

If SFA and other artist's don't want Sibe to pirate their works, DON'T
SELL TO HIM, you can refuse to sell to him, just as much as the con can
refuse to sell him a membership...

But then if refusing to sell to sibe won't cut off his supply, will
banning him do any better, or is there going to have to be a widening
net, of people banned or boycotted before a effect shows, if -ever-...

[Swipecat]

dsa...@yahoo.co.uk (Terrible Trotsky) wrote:

>I've noticed that lot of the people who mock furries "force"
>themselves to sit through explicit anal action furry animations so
>that they can complain afterwards how awful and evil and horrible and
>mind bending it is.
>
>They're just as furry as you or me. :D
>
>It all comes down to Internet cool.
>
>Being a furry is about enthuasism for and enjoyment of Anthros.
>
>Being Internet cool is about hating enthusiasm and honesty and
>maintaining an ironic and mocking detachment from everything.

Heh. Yes indeed. You're thinking of a certain web forum where the
members obsess day after day on extreme fetishes - linked to furry where
they can find it, but not in all cases.

I do wonder if some of them do this knowingly - having found a way to
sate their need to wallow in excess to their hearts content, and yet
have a disclaimer ready - they're just poking fun. And if you look at
the description of the site that one of the moderators has written for
WikiFur, I think that I do detect a hint of nudge-nudge-wink-wink there.
That said, it's clear that many of the members are genuinely so messed
up that (day after day, year after year) they must continuously pick
over things that they resent and blame for damaging their enjoyment of
Disney cartoons or whatever.

One good thing - I will give them credit for "sandboxing" a few extreme
bores that would otherwise be blighting this and other furry forums.

--
Farry/Swipecat

[iBuck]

> I'm Lord Ryven, and I'm sure you've heard of me.

> I'm gonna help feed the torrent with my T3 line...

>
> on top of that, I'm considering paying sibe 500 bucks a month to
> maintain his activities

Glad to know that the fandom has finally got an easilly identifiable
face to serve with the infringment lawsuits, be fun to see you squirm
in court...

[FuzzWolf]

"iBuck" <lncra...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1125409510.3...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

No lawyer in the land would take that case, don't you know he's LORD FUCKING
RYVEN!?!?!?!?

Fuzzy :-D

[Robert Davis]

dsa...@yahoo.co.uk (Terrible Trotsky) wrote in news:43130e1f.97056140
@news.critter.net:

> Just download bitlord, click on a torrent link, uncheck the boxes for
> the stuff you don't want, and then sit back and wait for it to
> download.

And wait, and wait, and wait, . . .

[Fzoul Chembryl :-O]

Robert Davis <arky...@cox-internet.com> bowed down before Ramesses in

the palace of alt.fan.furry and said:

yeah true, I had to leave it on overnight. :(

[cal...@yahoo.com]

"This is the sort of crap that got Burned Fur hated so much. Scattergun

accusations against a whole group whether they have the power to do
anything about a problem or not."

Eh, excuse me? I was a member and we didn't make "scattergun
accusations" against any group. What we said was that people should
keep their sex lives to themselves and not foist it on TV cameras.

Beyond which, I've been gone from this site for HOW many years, and you
people are STILL bitching about nonexistent boogeymen? Hell, there was
a time nothing went wrong in fandom except that it was blamed on a
"Burned Fur plot". Attempted destruction of furrycons, whole "phantom
groups" that we supposedly created as front operations (that way no one
had to listen to THEM, either), and so on. We might as well have been
Furry Fandom's "Weathermen". Ah, heady days...if I had just tenth the
"powah" attributed to me as a Burned Fur by our opposition, I'd be
President of the United States by now. -:D

*looks around* Yep, same cool people, same occasionally interesting
topic, gonna need me to catch up a bit.

Scott Malcomson
Furry Artist, Battletech Writer, and Former Candidate for Governor of
Arizona (thankyewverramush)

[jarro...@gmail.com]

Sorry , Scott.

Burned Fur isn't allowed to take credit for being Furry's Bad Guy To
Target All Hatred Towards To Bring Us Together anymore. Once Furry
destroyed you, they had to find a new bad guy. Enter Sibe.

Sibe, congratulations on being elected Furry's Bad Guy To Target All
Hatred Towards To Bring Us Together.

Ironic that we're mostly liberals inside Furry.. we've borrowed from a
tried and true conservative technique.

[jarro...@gmail.com]

Truthfully, Swipe, this reads the same as any of the KD stuff I've seen
for the longest time.

If it's Sibe (it's so fun to blame him for absolutely everything, and
so easy, too! ) then he's gone through a lot of trouble to paint a very
dubious and hard to read message that might not be received by
everyone. Plus, this KD is against piracy. Sibe is not. So would
Sibe fake a message condemning himself AND others instead of just
himself? Doubtful. No, I'd wager this is legit. It's one of those
loonies that got pushed to this level by the foaming at the mouth Sibe
hatred and decided that THEY were the ones to "do something." This is
KD Mo. It reads like KD. It argues like KD. It quacks like a duck..
err...

If it's not a KD, it's the best fake you'll ever see.

[Calbeck]

*snrk* Nobody "destroyed" Burned Fur. We just got sick of being
shouted down every time we commented on negative public sexual behavior
and having people defend exactly that behavior as though they were
clinging to life preservers in the Mid-Atlantic.

Example: Burned Fur and FAASA came out against bestiality. Result: the
opposition DEFENDS bestiality, to the extent to coming up with a
crackpot essay that attempts in all seriousness to argue that sexually
abusing one's pet can be "moral". What made it even goofier was that
these same people otherwise spent their time arguing with us that WE
had no right to determine what was and wasn't "moral" to begin with!
-:D

Not that we made many arguments on basis of "morality", though. We
just said that if you declare that you have sex with your dog, you
should get some professional help. "Bestiality Pride" was the last
thing we expected to run into.

[jarro...@gmail.com]

Calbeck:

BF lost because Furry decided to turn you into a common enemy. If you
came back now, when Sibe is the common enemy, you'd either A) not be
shouted down as energetically as you were then or B) become the common
enemy, and Sibe would not be.

BF lost because it got demonized into oblivion by the collective forces
of furs focused on a common enemy. That's all I'm saying.

[Calbeck]

[Calbeck]

"BF lost because Furry decided to turn you into a common enemy."

Exactly what universe do you live in? I was there, bub. We weren't
fighting "Furry". We were, in specific, fighting about a dozen people
who held to the notion that ANY attempt at trying to present a good
image to the public amounted to being forced back into the closet at
gunpoint (complete with swastikas and jackboots). If we said that it
was a bad idea to wear full-torso bondage gear in the hotel lobby at
Knott's Berry Farm, particularly during main business hours, then
someone would pop up and DEFEND whoever had done it.

I got into an extended argument with one idiot who insisted he was
going to crash MY convention in bondage gear "just to make a
statement". I informed him of Arizona laws on the subject regarding
public decency, and of course he called me names. Things went downhill
from there, of course. Naturally, he never showed up at the
convention.

This wasn't "Furry" I was fighting. It was a pack of morons who had
more time to spend on the computer than I did. Burned Fur broke up
simply because, since the "lifestylers" made it literally impossible to
have a civilized discussion on the subject, we had little other
recourse but to actually go out and start breaking kneecaps. Not
wanting to resort to violence, we simply parted ways. None of us were
"ousted" from the fandom or anything else, and most of us have quietly
been producing more furry art or otherwise being productive while the
rest of the fandom has finally succeeded in doing exactly what we said
it would.

The fandom is now known, where it is known at all, as a haven for
sexually-deviant types who occupy the very bottom of the "Geek
Hierarchy" and are routinely mocked by webcomic artists looking for an
easy "lookit the freaks" joke.

All WE said was that if you're going to buy, sell or deal porn, you
should be discreet and not try to shove your sexual preferences into
the general public eye. Boy, sometimes I hate being right so often...
-;>

[jarro...@gmail.com]

And believe it or not, I agree with you :)

The problem is that you weren't fighting furry.. but Furry was fighting
you. You explain how these people popped up. As for not being there,
I was there. My best friend was on the BF roles until furs started
calling his place of employment and he asked to be removed. He works
at a pretty high ranking position in a pretty important place, and
having his boss walk in and tell him that he was getting told that my
friend was a nazi was .. troublesome.

So, yes. You were fighting furry. Not by your choice, but by the end
result.

[Calbeck]

"Furry was fighting you."

And you're high. Explain how a dozen people amounts to "Furry".

"As for not being there, I was there"

Never heard of you. And if you were, you'd know better than to engage
in agitprop. With your claims of "Furry vs. BF" you sound like the
Iraqi Information Ministry saying Burned Furs are committing suicide at
the gates. -:)

"My best friend was on the BF roles until furs started calling his

place of employment and he asked to be removed..having his boss walk in

and tell him that he was getting told that my friend was a nazi was ..
troublesome. "

Assuming this is correct, do you believe it's right to get someone
fired on false allegations?

"So, yes. You were fighting furry. Not by your choice, but by the
end result."

Nothing you've said suggests Burned Fur was fighting the fandom itself.
Instead, you've alleged that opponents of Burned Fur called the place
of employment of at least one Burned Fur with a manufactured story
designed to get that person fired.

Rather ironic, if true: the people who screamed loud and long about
Burned Furs engaging in "McCarthyism" apparently practiced Ol' Joe's
tactics themselves. How interesting.

In other news, exactly what did Burned Fur stand for that would lead
you, assuming you're a reasonable person, to conclude that anyone in it
was a Nazi?

Scott Malcomson

[jarro...@gmail.com]

I don't think it stood for anything that would conclude anyone in it
was a nazi.

I'm not high, though, I was there. I joined under a false name, and
my friend joined under his actual name. Actually, he was sent
something by Squee that basically amounted to the manifesto and asked
if he agreed to it. He agreed to it , and then continued to write his
fanfic.

As for fighting the fandom, I couldn't go around conventions for years
without hearing from, oh, I'd say 7 out of every 10 people that
"*whisper* Burned Fur was here." "Oh god.. what will they do.." "Oh
no, mebbe we can get them kicked out." "Fight fire with fire." "I heard
Squee tried to kill people and was kicked out of AC" and on and on and
on.

I'd express "You know, I can see how they have a point on some things."
and yes, then it'd turn into McCarthyism. "Oh, so you're one of them?
Well, I don't hate zoophiles, does that mean you want to kill me?"
Mebbe you didn't see it because you were one of them and just didn't
associate with the "lifestylers" or whatever.. but it was very odd.. I
remember a few years back at MFF the Burned Furs doing a wine and
cheese party and seeing the signs all over with Nazi propaganda drawn
all over them. Mind you, not trying to invoke Godwin's law here, I
doubt you guys put that kind of stuff on them. On attending the party,
I had a very enjoyable time, and had some wonderful conversations.

So on the ground, it very much felt like Furry vs Burned Fur. I'd
wager every single con-chair to the major conventions were approached
by way more than a dozen people asking that Burned Furs be banned from
conventions.

With regards to my friend, he has a very high security clearance. A
call like that caused a great deal of trouble all over his office. At
that point he removed himself from anything that listed his name
directly with Burned Fur and most things Furry. He continued to write
under a pseudonym for awhile, and then re-entered with his real name
recently.

[BR]

On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 08:18:31 -0700, Calbeck wrote:

> The fandom is now known, where it is known at all, as a haven for
> sexually-deviant types who occupy the very bottom of the "Geek
> Hierarchy" and are routinely mocked by webcomic artists looking for an
> easy "lookit the freaks" joke.

And if memory serves? The above statement was a bone of contention,
basically being a "no, it's not", "yes, it is". It was never resolved.

BH use to bring it up a lot.

[Samantha, the Dancing Squirrel]

What if Sibe and Kimmaugh bred and had children?

In article <1126704788.7...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,

[Timmy Ramone]

Calbeck wrote:
>
> *snrk* Nobody "destroyed" Burned Fur. We just got sick of being
> shouted down every time we commented on negative public sexual
> behavior and having people defend exactly that behavior as though
> they were clinging to life preservers in the Mid-Atlantic.

I don't suppose the fact that the BF "leadership" were at each
other's throats had anything to do with it (specifically, Peter
"Hangdog" Schorn's threats to kill Eric Blumrich -- posted to
the old Yerf message board). And the fact that some of the
BF-ers were sexual deviants, themselves, didn't help their
"rep" much (I know of at least two women who were stalked by a
certain member of that illustrious group).

Of course, everyone knew the group was destined to implode.
But not even I could have imagined it would do so in such
a spectacularly embarassing way.

--

Visit the "Usual Suspects" weblog:
http://www.browncross.com/usualsuspects/

"Bowl a strike, not a spare -- revolution everywhere!" -RABL motto

[Sibe Husky]

I thought the BF thing was just one of those IDIFTL things.

[Calbeck]

"I don't suppose the fact that the BF "leadership" were at each other's
throats had anything to do with it"

You're right, it didn't. Neither Peter nor Eric gave anyone "marching
orders". There was no "command structure", that's something that our
opponents applied TO us. Peter was just the third guy in the group, a
position which conferred absolutely no perks or bennies. Neither did
being Eric: I happily argued with him on plenty of occasions myself. I
thought his rhetoric was overwrought for the purpose, and he really
didn't give a crap one way of the other. BF was just a way for him to
vent.

"And the fact that some of the BF-ers were sexual deviants, themselves"

You obviously haven't read our Manifesto: we don't CARE what your
particular kink is, just don't shove it in the camera lens and use a
little common sense where and how you enjoy it. I'm a sexual deviant
myself, but you don't see me giving interviews about it to British
shock magazines. That's the diff, bubby.

"(I know of at least two women who were stalked by a certain member of
that illustrious group)."

S'news to me. Why din'cha file charges?

[Sibe Husky]

British shock magazines are funny tho.

Why try to fake the funk on a nasty dunk?

[Calbeck]

"As for fighting the fandom, I couldn't go around conventions for years
without hearing from, oh, I'd say 7 out of every 10 people that
"*whisper* Burned Fur was here." "Oh god.. what will they do.." "Oh
no, mebbe we can get them kicked out." "Fight fire with fire." "I heard
Squee tried to kill people and was kicked out of AC" and on and on and
on."

Oh, I don't doubt it...that's called the Rumor Mill, and our opposition
was very good at screaming until they were the only ones left being
heard. Then they were free to accuse us of any number of bits of
eviltry without once having to actually produce, say, an actual plot.
Whisper campaigns are standard amongst hate groups like our opposition
--- and boy, did they HATE us.

"I'd express "You know, I can see how they have a point on some
things." and yes, then it'd turn into McCarthyism. "Oh, so you're one
of them? Well, I don't hate zoophiles, does that mean you want to kill
me?"

Yup. That's why the group ultimately broke up: impossible to be heard
thanks to the rumormongering and character assassination carried out
against our membership. We, you see, were a threat. We were calling
for decorum, and that would force a lot of people who are used to
throwing jawbreakers at cathedrals for fun to lighten up a bit.

"I remember a few years back at MFF the Burned Furs doing a wine and
cheese party and seeing the signs all over with Nazi propaganda drawn
all over them."

Never made it out to MFF myself, so I missed that one, but I wouldn't
put it above certain folks.

"So on the ground, it very much felt like Furry vs Burned Fur. I'd
wager every single con-chair to the major conventions were approached
by way more than a dozen people asking that Burned Furs be banned from
conventions. "

Well, I ran ZonieCon for several years, and never had anyone approach
me with such a request, so go fig. I DO recall someone claiming on AFF
that ZonieCon was a "Burned Fur" con simply because I was running it,
and on that basis he tried to boycott it. This concept greatly amused
most of our membership.

"With regards to my friend, he has a very high security clearance. A
call like that caused a great deal of trouble all over his office. At
that point he removed himself from anything that listed his name
directly with Burned Fur and most things Furry."

Well, can't blame him then. I prolly know who you're talking about,
too, but it's not clicking. Ah well.

[Calbeck]

"And if memory serves? The above statement was a bone of contention,
basically being a "no, it's not", "yes, it is". It was never resolved."

Try asking someone outside the fandom who's heard of us. It's
resolved, and not in our favor.

[Swipecat]

jarro...@gmail.com wrote:
> ...

>If it's Sibe (it's so fun to blame him for absolutely everything, and
>so easy, too! ) then he's gone through a lot of trouble to paint a very
>dubious and hard to read message that might not be received by
>everyone. Plus, this KD is against piracy. Sibe is not. So would
>Sibe fake a message condemning himself AND others instead of just

>himself? ...

After re-reading it, I have to say that it looks even less credible to
me now - like I said, I could've written in myself if I'd wanted to
damage the KDs. Then there's the hacking of the Spanish server to hide
the source, and the appearance of the pro-Sibe "KadaitchaDncr" around
about the same time, and the denial by Kookaburra who didn't seem to
know who it was either. And if it's pretending to be from a KD, then of
course it would give the superficial appearance of attacking Sibe.

> ... No, I'd wager this is legit. It's one of those

>loonies that got pushed to this level by the foaming at the mouth Sibe

>hatred and decided that THEY were the ones to "do something." ...

I don't deny the possibility. Sibe does seem to make some people like
that. I honestly have never Sibe posting in a group when he is NOT
actively trying to create even more enemies.

--
Farry/Swipecat

[Swipecat]

jarro...@gmail.com wrote:

>I don't think it stood for anything that would conclude anyone in it
>was a nazi.
>
>I'm not high, though, I was there. I joined under a false name, and
>my friend joined under his actual name. Actually, he was sent
>something by Squee that basically amounted to the manifesto and asked
>if he agreed to it. He agreed to it , and then continued to write his

>fanfic. ...

Jarrod, despite my anti-BF comment, I actually had sympathy for BF's
aims. However, I think that a certain person is now giving you an
education as to why I and others rapidly came to dislike them. If you
tried to point out that some things that they said were in error or that
there were problems with their tactics, then they would abuse you and
often the whole group as well. They would continuously harangue the
anthropomorphic-interest groups for things that most members had no
control over to the point that large numbers of people were driven away,
while the lifestyle-interest groups were left in peace. What finally
destroyed BF was internal argument - and I for one was not sorry at all.

--
Farry/Swipecat

[jarro...@gmail.com]

Why does it have to be hacking when it's an open NNTP server that
doesn't even check for permissions? Why wouldn't Sibe just do what he
usually does and use a proxy instead of setting up an entire mail
client?

You know, it's funny. A few years back, and Linux pros like myself
would share free NNTP servers that had all the groups on them. Then
fur.* began putting groups up on their own NNTP servers. Now, if you
access a free NNTP server, you're "Hacking it"

Gimme a break. Typing in an address to the NNTP Server box of outlook
express is NOT hacking it. You're giving a bad name to hackers.

[Sibe Husky]

HOW DARE THEY HARANGUE!

I dont feel sorry at all!!!

[jarro...@gmail.com]

Name names, Swipe.

I'm really tired of the behind people's back whispering. If you're not
going to directly accuse him of it, then I don't want to hear about it.

[Sibe Husky]

YEAH HE DOSENT WANNA HEAR ABOUT IT!

HOW YOU LIKE THEM APPLES BITCH?!

[Swipecat]

jarro...@gmail.com wrote:

>Gimme a break. Typing in an address to the NNTP Server box of outlook
>express is NOT hacking it. You're giving a bad name to hackers.

Actually, somebody pointed out that the Spanish server was used as a
proxy to post through Google. And I think it was most likely a
Sibe-supporter rather than Sibe himself.

--
Farry/Swipecat

[Swipecat]

jarro...@gmail.com wrote:

Just use Google groups to find references to Burned Fur in this group in
the year or so after it was created if you're asking me to support my
general point. As to who was giving you the "education", I meant
Calbeck, as if that wasn't blatantly obvious.

--
Farry/Swipecat

[jarro...@gmail.com]

It's funny. Right above your comment about burned fur people sending
out hate grams, you tell us that you think it was a pro-sibe person
posing as a KD.

And BF people were claiming that people were "ghosting" as them on
usenet.

Amazing, isn't it, the irony of those two posts of yours just now.

[Swipecat]

jarro...@gmail.com wrote:

>And BF people were claiming that people were "ghosting" as them on
>usenet.

I don't recall that. Schorn et al. were more than happy to harangue and
denigrate everyone in sight and let you know who they were. Try that
Google search. Trying to claim otherwise is a total revision of history.

--
Farry/Swipecat

[Calbeck]

"If you tried to point out that some things that they said were in
error or that there were problems with their tactics, then they would
abuse you and often the whole group as well."

Actually, my remembrance is that virtually no matter what a BF said, he
was instantly opposed by several anti-BFs. Tactics and content had
little or nothing to do with it. For example, just TWO posts after the
existence of Furries Against Animal Sexual Abuse was announced ---
their sole gripes being about bestialists and zoophiles --- Farlo Fey
Dragon had this to say:

"Out, damned Zoos! I hunt for you in the safety of my own backyard!!
Fear my "Righteous Wrath(tm)" and my "Bloody Sword of Moral
Judgements". Truth is my Shield, yea, verily as I slam it into the
ground many times AWAY from me ... you can run but you cannot hide.
Saint McCarthy is my guiding light, Salem my heritage, and none shall
stay my bloody lunacy!"

Wow, no fewer than three "religious zealotry" imprecations, plus
McCarthyism AND the Salem Witch Hunts, all in ONE paragraph. Made even
more ironic by the total lack of actual religious themes or "suspicions
of Communism" on the part of FAASA. There's nothing here about "things
said in error" or "problems with tactics". It's just an instant
flamewar, instigated by your side of the aisle.

"They would continuously harangue the anthropomorphic-interest groups
for things that most members had no control over to the point that
large numbers of people were driven away,"

Name one. I can recall, in fact, a great number of furry fans who
boycotted ConFurence specifically because its founders would not clean
up the sort of behavior Burned Furs were complaining about. And when
we made those complaints here on AFF, we were attacked for pointing out
these problems. We were even accused of making the issue worse BY
making our issues heard, on the theory that every time a problem was
spoken of, it would be more easily Googled. Our opposition openly
claimed that the best way to handle the problem was to shut up and
ignore it.

And now Furry Fandom's reputation, supported and endorsed by our
opposition, routinely drives away potential new members in disgust and
loathing. Burned Fur had nothing to do with that, mon frere.

"What finally destroyed BF was internal argument - and I for one was
not sorry at all."

And more mythology. No one cared. There was no "schism" or "faction
warfare". There were no factions to begin with. It was simply two
Burned Furs having a row, and the only people who think more of it are
those who want to ascribe mythical properties to it.

[David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)]

On 14 Sep 2005 05:20:36 -0700, cal...@yahoo.com <cal...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "This is the sort of crap that got Burned Fur hated so much. Scattergun
>
> accusations against a whole group whether they have the power to do
> anything about a problem or not."
>
> Eh, excuse me? I was a member and we didn't make "scattergun
> accusations" against any group. What we said was that people should
> keep their sex lives to themselves and not foist it on TV cameras.

You may not have said that, but the core originating document of the
Burned fur movement "This Sorid little business" is a scattergun
accusation and doesn't restict itself just to the loud perverts but
whent after everyone. Plus alot of your members where loudmouthed
trouble makers did alot more dammige to your movement then anyone
outside of it.

--
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia. See
http://dformosa.zeta.org.au/~dformosa/Spelling.html to find out more.
Free the Memes.

[David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)]

On 14 Sep 2005 06:28:56 -0700, jarro...@gmail.com
<jarro...@gmail.com> wrote:

[...]

> Sibe, congratulations on being elected Furry's Bad Guy To Target All
> Hatred Towards To Bring Us Together.
>
> Ironic that we're mostly liberals inside Furry.. we've borrowed from a
> tried and true conservative technique.

Emanuel Goldstean wasn't exactly a conservative invention.

[David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)]

On 14 Sep 2005 07:31:07 -0700, Calbeck <cal...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[...]

> Example: Burned Fur and FAASA came out against bestiality. Result: the
> opposition DEFENDS bestiality,

This surprised you? Didn't you do even the slightest bit of resurch?
The moralty of bestiality was a majour and long running topic on AFF
for meany years. After a while a sort of informal cease fire
evolved. You simply reactivated a flame war.

[...]

> "Bestiality Pride" was the last thing we expected to run into.

And that is why you failed.

[Timmy Ramone]

Calbeck wrote:
>
> And more mythology. No one cared. There was no "schism" or "faction
> warfare". There were no factions to begin with. It was simply two
> Burned Furs having a row, and the only people who think more of it
> are those who want to ascribe mythical properties to it.

One BF saying to another, "The next time I see you I will KILL you,"
strikes me as just a wee bit more serious than a factional row.
And that was just the public part of that internal debate. Hangdog
made similtar threats against other people, including yours truly,
and that got him booted off the Yerf board, once and for all.
His violent temper, along with his vicious, anti-Arab racism
(which manifested itself after the attacks on 9/11) made him
persona-non-grata elsewhere and destroyed what little credibility
he and his group ever had. It certainly didn't help that people
like Hangdog, along with Eric Blumrich and "Squee" Rat, were the
public face of the burned furs from the start. (Though to his
credit, Eric has gone on to bigger and much better things, e.g.,
http://www.bushflash.com ).

Now, maybe you remember differently how it all went down. As you
said, it doesn't really matter at this point. However, it was hard
for the BF-ers to maintain a credible stance against "bad behavior"
in furry fandom when, in fact, they were some of the worst-behaved
fans I've ever encountered.

[Wanderer]

"Calbeck" <cal...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1126722820....@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Having been the public face of furry fandom whenever possible, I can give
you an approximation:

Responses to the term, "furry" in the context, "I'm a member of furry
fandom":

"You mean like on C.S.I.?": 5%

"What's that?": 95%

Yes, just two responses. That's counting all non-furries I talked to at MFM
'00, MFM '01, MFM '05, Greyhound, City of Dallas Police Department, and my
own family. Sorry, Calbeck, but the reality doesn't match the theory:
Furry fandom's reputation is still very much in its infancy.

Yours truly,

The wolfish,

Wanderer
wand...@ticnet.com

"Where am I going? I don't quite know.
What does it matter *where* people go?
Down to the woods where the bluebells grow!
Anywhere! Anywhere! *I* don't know!"
-- a. a. milne

[Wanderer]

"Calbeck" <cal...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1126722086.8...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> "I don't suppose the fact that the BF "leadership" were at each other's
> throats had anything to do with it"
>
> You're right, it didn't. Neither Peter nor Eric gave anyone "marching
> orders".

<snip> Irrelevant. The public members of "Burned Furs" were acting with
all the elan and tact of the United Nations... in the 1960's. (Khruschev,
anyone?) If your public face, presumably the best you can show the fandom
to support your contention, consists of people acting like three-year-olds?
You have a serious problem, and it's not the opposition.

>
> "And the fact that some of the BF-ers were sexual deviants, themselves"
>
> You obviously haven't read our Manifesto: we don't CARE what your
> particular kink is, just don't shove it in the camera lens and use a
> little common sense where and how you enjoy it. I'm a sexual deviant
> myself, but you don't see me giving interviews about it to British
> shock magazines. That's the diff, bubby.

The "diff", Calbeck, is that what the BF said and what the BF did were two
different things. Sure, the Manifesto said that... if you read heavily
between the lines with a large dose of "they can't possibly mean what
they're saying":

http://burnedfur.mv.com/manifesto.html

"... like it or not, "Furry" means "Pervert." This didn't come out of
nowhere, either." (No, it was typed by Squee Rat.)

"Do you know what all the other fandoms.. Trekkies, X-Philes,
Lovecrafters... call Furries? SKUNK-FUCKERS." (None that I've ever met.
The ones I know call us, "What's that?")

"Yes indeedy, as we descend just a step deeper into Hell, we stumble across
the path of the Plushophile. That's shorthand for "I find this Meeko doll
intensely erotic." " (Yep, Squee did some homework... NOT. "Plushophile"
is properly the term for a collector of plush animals... not someone who
uses a toy raccoon in place of Blow-up Betty.)

"Down, down, down we go... oh, look, the Seventh Level of Furry Hell. Furry
Lifestylers. " (Gee, Squee, tell us how you really feel about furry
lifestylers...)

"I'm sure Freud would have a great, detailed explanation as to why people
build up fantasy worlds for themselves like this, but I'm content to call
these types Crackpots." (Sensitive to the end...)

"Claiming to BE a werewolf? SEEK HELP. You're not a werewolf. THERE ARE NO
WEREWOLVES. Anyone who claims to turn into a giant dog at the whim of a
celestial body should be mercilessly ostracized and laughed at with maximum
cruelty." (Pity of it is, alt.horror.werewolves agrees with the "nobody
knows how to shapeshift" part of that... with a provisory "yet" for the
hopefuls. But "mercilessly ostracized and laughed at with extreme cruelty"?
Somebody has issues... and it's not the werewolves.)

"You'll find a good thousand spastics claiming the protection of the Fox,
But I've yet to hear a furry fan thank the Earwig Spirit for his wisdom.
Yes, I'm taunting you. Cope." (Great idea, putting "taunting" into your
Manifesto. I'm sure Marx would've put some in his if he'd just thought of
it... yeah, right.)

"And YES, there's even a special breed of nutboys out there who insist a
major component of Furriness is the practicing of Veganism." (I thought
this was about how you shouldn't put your sexual perversion in public.
Isn't that what you said, Calbeck? When did it become a pro-carnivore
agends? Not that this wolf is complaining...)

"No, I'm holding my own on this end of the evolutionary ladder, thank you.
Most furries are. But for the poor shmucks who want nothing more than to
transform into an elk or bear or something equally ridiculous, a stay in an
institution, not a fandom, is in order." (<rolls eyes> Oh, yeah, because
not being happy with yourself is a sure sign of insanity, suuure... and
again, nothing to do with sex. Have you read the manifesto before,
Calbeck?)

http://burnedfur.mv.com/proposal.html

"It's not enough to distance ourselves from the previously mentioned
drooling maniacs.

Even if , by some miracle, the masses rose up and managed to expel every
last wacko from the fanbase, the name "furry" has taken on connotations it
will likely never shake. Common sense decrees a secession is in order. A
subset needs forming; a group of furry-types who want to make their interest
known, without being associated with the twitching crack babies and their
crazed notions." (Most of reality, i.e., non-Squee, non-imaginary people,
have no idea what Furry is about.)

"Burned Furs would be defined as furs who aren't insane.

Simple enough. It you've ever lusted after a German Shepherd, own a
harem of Care Bears, or consider yourself a reincarnated unicorn, you don't
qualify. Burned Furs are furries who are tired of being associated with
lunatics, and should make sure they're heard." (This was Squee Rat posting
this, Calbeck... a professed Burned Fur. Are you saying Squee Rat was lying
about the very foundations of Burned Fur? If so, who should we have been
listening to? If not, how do you reconcile the obvious differences?)

[M. Mitchell Marmel]

In article <11ignsd...@corp.supernews.com>,

cir...@armory.com (Samantha, the Dancing Squirrel) wrote:

> What if Sibe and Kimmaugh bred and had children?

Now that's the best argument for mandatory sterilization I've seen in a
looooooooong time...

-MMM-

--
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TaliVisions
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sawyercatunleashed
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/furry_city/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/losgatosafterdark/

[James Rau]

On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 17:36:13 -0000, cir...@armory.com (Samantha, the
Dancing Squirrel) wrote:

>What if Sibe and Kimmaugh bred and had children?

*<SHUDDER!*>

James R

[Swipecat]

"Calbeck" <cal...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Swipecat wrote:
>>If you tried to point out that some things that they said were in
>>error or that there were problems with their tactics, then they would
>>abuse you and often the whole group as well.
>

>Farlo Fey Dragon had this to say:
>
>"Out, damned Zoos! I hunt for you in the safety of my own backyard!!
>Fear my "Righteous Wrath(tm)" and my "Bloody Sword of Moral
>Judgements". Truth is my Shield, yea, verily as I slam it into the
>ground many times AWAY from me ... you can run but you cannot hide.
>Saint McCarthy is my guiding light, Salem my heritage, and none shall
>stay my bloody lunacy!"
>
>Wow, no fewer than three "religious zealotry" imprecations, plus
>McCarthyism AND the Salem Witch Hunts, all in ONE paragraph. Made even
>more ironic by the total lack of actual religious themes or "suspicions
>of Communism" on the part of FAASA. There's nothing here about "things
>said in error" or "problems with tactics". It's just an instant
>flamewar, instigated by your side of the aisle.

Good grief. As I said, I had sympathy for BF's aims (I'm an
anthropomorphics fan, not a lifestyler), but you say that the flamewar
was instigated by "my" side of the aisle. That's McCarthyism by
definition. I don't know how you could have made my point any clearer
for me.

--
Farry/Swipecat

[Brian Henderson]

On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 23:02:38 GMT, "David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)"
<dfor...@dformosa.zeta.org.au> wrote:

>On 14 Sep 2005 07:31:07 -0700, Calbeck <cal...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> "Bestiality Pride" was the last thing we expected to run into.

>And that is why you failed.

Yeah, they underestimated the stupidity and bad taste of furries.

[Brian Henderson]

On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 19:20:34 -0500, "Wanderer" <wand...@ticnet.com>
wrote:

>Having been the public face of furry fandom whenever possible, I can give
>you an approximation:
>
>Responses to the term, "furry" in the context, "I'm a member of furry
>fandom":
>
>"You mean like on C.S.I.?": 5%
>
>"What's that?": 95%
>
>Yes, just two responses. That's counting all non-furries I talked to at MFM
>'00, MFM '01, MFM '05, Greyhound, City of Dallas Police Department, and my
>own family. Sorry, Calbeck, but the reality doesn't match the theory:
>Furry fandom's reputation is still very much in its infancy.

And that much is true, but before CSI aired, it would have been 99.9%
"Huh?". And before Wired and all the other magazine articles, the
number would have been even higher.

What we need to be worried about is when that coverage is on CNN, the
cover of Time or the evening news across the country. That's when
you're going to get the backlash.

[A Smelly Hyena]

"Calbeck" <cal...@yahoo.com> bowed down before Ramesses in the palace
of alt.fan.furry and said:

>little common sense where and how you enjoy it. I'm a sexual deviant
>myself, but you don't see me giving interviews about it to British
>shock magazines. That's the diff, bubby.

The very fact that you use words like sexual "deviant" reveals that
you are a reactionary who does not think things through.

You would realise, if you were a thoughtful fellow that all that is in
nature is natural. There is nothing deviant or wrong about haveing
carnal thoughts towards say... invisable pink unicorns.

If you think that such things are "deviant" or the like, you have
imbibed too much judeo-christian ideology and are letting it clog up
your cognition like so much gunk.

---
"no loot equalled this one, nor in the indies was there
ever found such wealth"

[Don Sanders]

In article <178ji1t85ssdvj7f4...@4ax.com>,
BrianL.H...@NOSPAM.verizon.net says...

Hmmm, should that be "some furries."?
By that statement you made it would be taken as the whole of the
genre instead of just a select few.

Frankly I was not aware that I had bad taste and was lacking in some
intelligence.

Just wondering.

--
Don Sanders.

[jarro...@gmail.com]

While it's true that the mainstream world doesn't seem to know about
us.. I think if you go to a sci-fi con or talk to those that do, and
identify yourself as furry... you'll find the perception of us is very
much like what Calbeck is saying.

I have a friend I've known for years who just recently found out I was
furry. Fortunatly, this friend actually valued our friendship and
communicated with me about furry and the like, but not all people are
as understanding as he.

So when the sci-fiers look down on us, and the anime fans look down on
us, what's that say? I dunno, but I think that was what Calbeck was
getting at.

[BR]

On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 06:34:50 -0700, jarrodhenry wrote:

> So when the sci-fiers look down on us, and the anime fans look down on
> us, what's that say?

Star Trekkers and Sailor Moon fans have no taste.

[jarro...@gmail.com]

Heh. Star Trek and Sailor Moon are passe, anyway.

Firefly, man. Firefly.

[Brian Henderson]

On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 19:52:37 GMT, dsa...@yahoo.co.uk (A Smelly Hyena)
wrote:

>You would realise, if you were a thoughtful fellow that all that is in
>nature is natural. There is nothing deviant or wrong about haveing
>carnal thoughts towards say... invisable pink unicorns.

Yeah? Then you should certainly be able to point out a case in nature
where this happens, outside of humans. Come on, what animal has
carnal thoughts toward imaginary animals?

We're waiting.

[Kory Anders]

Until someone asks Koko, nobody knows, not because it doesn't exist,
but because nobody has researched it. After all, a great many animals
exhibit sexual proclivities besides just reproduction, especially
primates who have been observed not only masturbating, but also
performing mutal masturbation, homosexuality and group sex, maybe they
fantize as well. We don't know. Perhaps someone will find out,
someday.

Oh, have you started introducing your wife to people as such and
started showing her affection in public, yet?

[Brian Henderson]

On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 17:50:25 GMT, Kory Anders <kori...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Until someone asks Koko, nobody knows, not because it doesn't exist,
>but because nobody has researched it. After all, a great many animals
>exhibit sexual proclivities besides just reproduction, especially
>primates who have been observed not only masturbating, but also
>performing mutal masturbation, homosexuality and group sex, maybe they
>fantize as well. We don't know. Perhaps someone will find out,
>someday.

Then until you do know, stop claiming it's natural. It isn't
something that demonstrably happens in nature.

>Oh, have you started introducing your wife to people as such and
>started showing her affection in public, yet?

Why, is that what you want to do to your horse?

[jarro...@gmail.com]

Koko couldn't really clearly answer in a manner that we would
understand. She generally uses interpreted codewords that her
facilitators decipher. If you've ever seen an interview with her,
you'd know that she speaks in a lot of gibberish and phrases, assigning
words of her choice to different items. For example, for Koko,
sometimes a girl is called "Lips" , sometimes it's "kitchen" and
sometimes it's "Face."

So I really doubt she'd be able to clearly enunciate an expression of
desire for the abstract.. she hardly can communicate about the
concrete.

[Kory Anders]

On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 22:06:50 GMT, Brian Henderson
<BrianL.H...@NOSPAM.verizon.net> wrote:

>On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 17:50:25 GMT, Kory Anders <kori...@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Until someone asks Koko, nobody knows, not because it doesn't exist,
>>but because nobody has researched it. After all, a great many animals
>>exhibit sexual proclivities besides just reproduction, especially
>>primates who have been observed not only masturbating, but also
>>performing mutal masturbation, homosexuality and group sex, maybe they
>>fantize as well. We don't know. Perhaps someone will find out,
>>someday.
>
>Then until you do know, stop claiming it's natural. It isn't
>something that demonstrably happens in nature.

But neither can you claim it's unnatural, when nobody has actually
studied it. It may be happening and nobody knows it yet. Fact is,
nobody can say one way or the other.

>>Oh, have you started introducing your wife to people as such and
>>started showing her affection in public, yet?
>
>Why, is that what you want to do to your horse?

What horse? I was just wondering if you finally started treating your
wife right, since you told all of us that you never introduce her as
your wife and never show her affection in public. Ever.

[BR]

On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 18:02:21 -0700, jarrodhenry wrote:

> So I really doubt she'd be able to clearly enunciate an expression of
> desire for the abstract.. she hardly can communicate about the concrete.

Red, doll lips shelf. Tea green round ball! Girl teeth jump no? "Water dry
'fall well' turn see smile". DOG BROWN RUN HEAT!

[Don Sanders]

In article <pan.2005.09.16....@comcast.net>,
brodr...@comcast.net says...

I tend to disagree. Sailor Moon fans have a distinctive sweet
flavoring in their centers providing they are prepared right.

As for Star Trekkers, if marinated in Romulan Ale for about two
hours, they tend to yield a taste that is more akin to flash fried
tribble with a odd mixture of Klingon Gah. (I hope I spelled that
right.)

:)

Hannabil Lecter I ain't.

:)

--
Don Sanders.

[Karl Xydexx Jorgensen]

Wanderer wrote:
> Responses to the term, "furry" in the context, "I'm a member of furry
> fandom":
>
> "You mean like on C.S.I.?": 5%
>
> "What's that?": 95%

Just to put things in their proper perspective, I did a Google Groups
search from September 1-November 30, 2003 (when the CSI episode aired):

References to "CSI" on alt.fan.furry: 909
References to "furry" on alt.tv.csi: 31

As the saying goes: "You wouldn't care so much about what people
thought about you if you knew how rarely they did." -:)

--
http://www.xydexx.com
http://xydexx.livejournal.com

[Karl Xydexx Jorgensen]

JarrodHenry wrote:
>BF lost because Furry decided to turn you into a common enemy.

Nah.

Burned Fur lost because it was its own worst enemy.

---
http://www.xydexx.com
http://xydexx.livejournal.com

[Wanderer]

"Brian Henderson" <BrianL.H...@NOSPAM.verizon.net> wrote in message
news:j88ji1pbk9qu8qjkk...@4ax.com...

> And that much is true, but before CSI aired, it would have been 99.9%
> "Huh?". And before Wired and all the other magazine articles, the
> number would have been even higher.

There's only 0.1% left in the percentage total as it is.O.o

>
> What we need to be worried about is when that coverage is on CNN, the
> cover of Time or the evening news across the country. That's when
> you're going to get the backlash.

<bemused sigh> As opposed to the multiple citations on network news, the
Sex2K series on MTV, the newspaper writeups of our conventions, et cetera?
Face it, BH: In a world of face-melted pop singers accused of child
molestation, a man who has fishing-line whiskers implanted, and blow-by-blow
descriptions of events from ten miles to half a world away, Furry Fandom is
barely a blip on a very large (and expanding) screen.

[Wanderer]

"Don Sanders" <noo...@myemail.com> wrote in message
news:dgg8ss$1uj8$1...@urocyon.critter.net...

> As for Star Trekkers, if marinated in Romulan Ale for about two
> hours, they tend to yield a taste that is more akin to flash fried
> tribble with a odd mixture of Klingon Gah. (I hope I spelled that
> right.)
>

It's g'akh, and I hope I give you indigestion.:>

Yours truly,

The indigestible,

[Don Sanders]

In article <11innds...@corp.supernews.com>, wand...@ticnet.com
says...

> "Don Sanders" <noo...@myemail.com> wrote in message
> news:dgg8ss$1uj8$1...@urocyon.critter.net...
> > As for Star Trekkers, if marinated in Romulan Ale for about two
> > hours, they tend to yield a taste that is more akin to flash fried
> > tribble with a odd mixture of Klingon Gah. (I hope I spelled that
> > right.)
> >
>
> It's g'akh, and I hope I give you indigestion.:>
>

A Klingon finds honor in any battle, even ones taken place in the
Gastrointestinal tract.

:)

--
Don Sanders.

[Brian Henderson]

On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 04:08:56 -0500, "Wanderer" <wand...@ticnet.com>
wrote:

><bemused sigh> As opposed to the multiple citations on network news, the
>Sex2K series on MTV, the newspaper writeups of our conventions, et cetera?
>Face it, BH: In a world of face-melted pop singers accused of child
>molestation, a man who has fishing-line whiskers implanted, and blow-by-blow
>descriptions of events from ten miles to half a world away, Furry Fandom is
>barely a blip on a very large (and expanding) screen.

That's true until you get that one single event that galvanizes people
into mass furry hatred. You have to remember that RPGs were barely a
blip back in the late 70s/early 80s until there started to be stories,
largely false, about gamers being devil-worshippers. Then there was a
lot of furor over the gaming industry by a bunch of self-righteous
idiots.

So what happens when the news breaks that some zoo is running an
'animal brothel' or something? "All members who were caught having
sex with dogs and horses were arrested and the animals were
confiscated. The owner was arrested for animal cruelty. All people
at the scene were reported to be part of an online furry fandom..."

Do we really need that? It would move the "huh?" response from 99.99%
to "who are these idiots?" real quickly.

[iBuck]

> That's true until you get that one single event that galvanizes people
> into mass furry hatred. You have to remember that RPGs were barely a
> blip back in the late 70s/early 80s until there started to be stories,
> largely false, about gamers being devil-worshippers. Then there was a
> lot of furor over the gaming industry by a bunch of self-righteous
> idiots.

If that's you're idea of "mass hatred" I'll take it, what did it
generate, 1 C-rated movie, a couple of Chick tracts, and a running joke
in the fandom? Didn't seem to actually put much of a damper on
things... (funny how speilberg didn't have problems putting D&D into
ET, if it was such a big issue)

> So what happens when the news breaks that some zoo is running an
> 'animal brothel' or something? "All members who were caught having
> sex with dogs and horses were arrested and the animals were
> confiscated. The owner was arrested for animal cruelty. All people
> at the scene were reported to be part of an online furry fandom..."
>
> Do we really need that? It would move the "huh?" response from 99.99%
> to "who are these idiots?" real quickly.

To which I'd say, "The pressis a buch of fucktards who don't have any
more clue about the fandom is about than you did yesterday" - this is
-if- there ever is a news stroy about a bunch of zoo's actually seting
up an underground brolther, and -if- all the people there were furry
fans and -if- the press some how caught that angle, aand decided they
could get milage and ran with it...

Seems like about a snowball's chance in hell of actually occuring, and
one that the fandom could weather pretty easily, by simply saying back
to who ever asks.."my comics have nothing to do with those idiots..."

What action this fandom needs to do is to tell people what it -is- and
not try to conduct some idiot purge of what it isn't

[iBuck]

> BF lost because it got demonized into oblivion by the collective forces
> of furs focused on a common enemy. That's all I'm saying.

Here I thought it was because it advanced a set of absurd, overboard,
and impossible to actually acomplish goals, in response to what most
observers thought was a non-problem, that wasn't any worse than other
fandom's fringes anyway...

And then they just became obselete when the fandom attracted a growing
mainstream crowd...

[M. Mitchell Marmel]

In article <1126942749.4...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,

"Karl Xydexx Jorgensen" <xyd...@aol.com> wrote:

> JarrodHenry wrote:
> >BF lost because Furry decided to turn you into a common enemy.
>
> Nah.
>
> Burned Fur lost because it was its own worst enemy.

H'm. Dealers rooms policed for objectionable materials, zero presence
of animal dildoes in DRs, separate adult sections in art shows, response
for interviews by the press refused, et cetera...

I'd say the BFs scored some victories even if the organization (such as
it is) is no longer extant.

You may wish to argue these measures weren't brought about by the BFs.

(shrug) Feel free to do so. :)

[Sibe Husky]

I say bring back the animal dildos!

[Kory Anders]

On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 15:19:01 -0500, "M. Mitchell Marmel"
<marm...@vrx.net> wrote:

>In article <1126942749.4...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "Karl Xydexx Jorgensen" <xyd...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> JarrodHenry wrote:
>> >BF lost because Furry decided to turn you into a common enemy.
>>
>> Nah.
>>
>> Burned Fur lost because it was its own worst enemy.
>
>H'm. Dealers rooms policed for objectionable materials, zero presence
>of animal dildoes in DRs, separate adult sections in art shows, response
>for interviews by the press refused, et cetera...
>
>I'd say the BFs scored some victories even if the organization (such as
>it is) is no longer extant.

So, it was the BFs that brought this about, even though most of these
responses were occuring before the BFs existed? Wow.

[Wanderer]

"Brian Henderson" <BrianL.H...@NOSPAM.verizon.net> wrote in message

news:v4moi1hs22h9t1e8s...@4ax.com...

> That's true until you get that one single event that galvanizes people
> into mass furry hatred. You have to remember that RPGs were barely a
> blip back in the late 70s/early 80s until there started to be stories,
> largely false, about gamers being devil-worshippers. Then there was a
> lot of furor over the gaming industry by a bunch of self-righteous
> idiots.

Actually, the event that "galvanized" that reaction into the "groundswell"
that gave us B.A.D.D., the Chick Tract "Dark Dungeons"(?) and some unusual
moments on "60 Minutes" and "The Morton Downey Jr. Show" was the story of
James Egbert Dallas III. He was an advanced-placement student in an upstate
school, several grades ahead, whose parents were going through a Messy
Divorce. (There's a reason for those capitals: "Tell Mommy how much you
want to stay with Daddy forever, son.") After he ran away, they found a
dungeon map corresponding to the steam tunnels underneath the school, and
the sensationalistic press jumped straight to the "lost his mind, thinks
he's his character, living in the steam tunnels" folderol. This incorrect
supposition was later turned into "Mazes and Monsters" by Rona Jaffe, who
"spiced it up" by adding physical abuse and two chapters where the person
"lost in the character" of his thief inexplicably becomes a homosexual
prostitute.

The truth of the story? Dallas considered the steam tunnels for a hideout,
but reasoned (as the P.I. did after him) that it would be like trying to
hide in Grand Central Station. He ran away, eventually fell in with some
would-be ransom demanders, and was finally brought home by the P.I. after
the "kidnappers" realized just how bad their situation was.

After being returned to his parents, who returned to their "tell them you
hate them and love me" games, he blew his brains out with a shotgun. But,
as an article once remarked, "He committed suicide because of what we did to
him" requires taking responsibility for your actions; "He committed suicide
because of that evil game" doesn't. Guess which one irresponsible parents
who drive their kids to suicide prefer, hands down.

(N.B.: Not all "game-related" suicides are caused by irresponsible parents.
When I researched the subject for my speech class, another example was a
former jock whose brother had died, and who had contracted a muscle-wasting
disease that was going to cripple him. Depression, anyone? Another had no
boundary between his character and himself, and his character had been
cursed... he decided the curse gave him (not his character) lycanthropy, and
committed suicide "to protect those he loved". Yet another was found in his
car, no weapon, and his shoes and socks were missing... yet the local police
ruled it a suicide, and the press noticed he'd once played RPGs. You get
the picture, yes?)

>
> So what happens when the news breaks that some zoo is running an
> 'animal brothel' or something? "All members who were caught having
> sex with dogs and horses were arrested and the animals were
> confiscated. The owner was arrested for animal cruelty. All people
> at the scene were reported to be part of an online furry fandom..."

<contemplate>

Doesn't read well on the tube. "Online" breaks the rhythm, "furry" requires
explanation, and "fandom" doesn't sound drastic enough to grab the rubes.
More likely teleprompt:

"The owner, along with several others, was taken into custody on charges of
cruelty to animals. While City Hall refuses to comment, sources inside the
police department indicate that bestiality may have been involved.
According to witnesses, the group claimed to have been in contact via the
Internet prior to this meeting."

Yes, I took journalism.:>

More realistically, there's already been a zooerast caught running an
'animal brothel':

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002382718_horse15m.html

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002384648_farm16m.html
(Same story, with major squickiness. Yes, even worse than the first one.)

I mean, you seem to think that all zooerasts are members of AFF. Nairobi
police will gladly tell you otherwise:

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,16466871-13762,00.html

>
> Do we really need that? It would move the "huh?" response from 99.99%
> to "who are these idiots?" real quickly.

Funny that it didn't, then. Why do alarmists seem to post only about things
that have already happened, then predict consequences that never appeared?

Yours truly,

The bemused,

[Rick Pikul]

On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 18:01:59 +0000, Brian Henderson wrote:

> On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 04:08:56 -0500, "Wanderer" <wand...@ticnet.com>
> wrote:
>
>><bemused sigh> As opposed to the multiple citations on network news, the
>>Sex2K series on MTV, the newspaper writeups of our conventions, et cetera?
>>Face it, BH: In a world of face-melted pop singers accused of child
>>molestation, a man who has fishing-line whiskers implanted, and blow-by-blow
>>descriptions of events from ten miles to half a world away, Furry Fandom is
>>barely a blip on a very large (and expanding) screen.
>
> That's true until you get that one single event that galvanizes people
> into mass furry hatred. You have to remember that RPGs were barely a
> blip back in the late 70s/early 80s until there started to be stories,
> largely false, about gamers being devil-worshippers. Then there was a
> lot of furor over the gaming industry by a bunch of self-righteous
> idiots.

Yes a wave of hatered so large that I had to...

Tell one girl who was a Chick tract level Bible-thumping idiot that what
she had heard was 100% wrong, and invite one player's father to sit in on
a game if he was at all worried[1].

[1] The offer was enough. He felt that if I was willing to have him watch
us play, there couldn't be too much wrong with it.

[Sibe Husky]

Ill give the father something to sit in on.

[Karl Xydexx Jorgensen]

>You may wish to argue these measures weren't brought about by the BFs.

Nah, no argument is necessary. The fact that these measures were put in
place before Burned Fur existed means Burned Fur can't claim credit for
them.

It just proves Burned Fur was both unnecessary and irrelevant. -:D

[M. Mitchell Marmel]

In article <1127190608....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,

"Karl Xydexx Jorgensen" <xyd...@aol.com> wrote:

> >You may wish to argue these measures weren't brought about by the BFs.
>
> Nah, no argument is necessary. The fact that these measures were put in
> place before Burned Fur existed means Burned Fur can't claim credit for
> them.

(cheerfully) If you'd like to think so, I can't stop you. :)

[Don Sanders]

In article <1127190608....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
xyd...@aol.com says...

> >You may wish to argue these measures weren't brought about by the BFs.
>
> Nah, no argument is necessary. The fact that these measures were put in
> place before Burned Fur existed means Burned Fur can't claim credit for
> them.
>
> It just proves Burned Fur was both unnecessary and irrelevant. -:D
>

I slightly disagree about that. Given the amount of noise generated
by the BF, I figure they earned a place as the genre's Boogie
persons. (not really wanting to be PC or anything.) At least that is
my take on the whole thing.

--
Don Sanders.

[M. Mitchell Marmel]

In article <1127190608....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,

"Karl Xydexx Jorgensen" <xyd...@aol.com> wrote:

> >You may wish to argue these measures weren't brought about by the BFs.
>
> Nah, no argument is necessary. The fact that these measures were put in
> place before Burned Fur existed means Burned Fur can't claim credit for
> them.

In place? Enforced? Don't think so. There were animal dildoes for
sale in the public hallway in front of the CF dealer's den the same
weekend I premiered the BF licence plate stickers and T-shirts.

As an interesting aside, I put a BF licence plate sticker on one of the
drawing pages in the lobby. I saw later that someone had drawn a car
using the plate as it's licence plate, with several furry characters
shooting the car.

Just WHO was doing the hating, again? :D

[Allen Kitchen]

I'm amazed that you guys are still bitching about the Burned Furs. It's
history, guys. Don't you have anything better to do?

Allen Kitchen (shockwave)

[BR]

On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 12:32:41 +0000, Allen Kitchen wrote:

> Don't you have anything better to do?

Bitch about the past? Bitch about the present? Bitch about the future?
Maybe BF stands for Bitch Fest? Anyway I have a cake to bake. Wish me
luck.

[ferret]

M. Mitchell Marmel wrote:
> In article <1127190608....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
> "Karl Xydexx Jorgensen" <xyd...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>You may wish to argue these measures weren't brought about by the BFs.
>>
>>Nah, no argument is necessary. The fact that these measures were put in
>>place before Burned Fur existed means Burned Fur can't claim credit for
>>them.
>
>
> In place? Enforced? Don't think so. There were animal dildoes for
> sale in the public hallway in front of the CF dealer's den the same
> weekend I premiered the BF licence plate stickers and T-shirts.
>
>

CF? Well that explains it. The changes mentioned were already in place
and being enforced at the other conventions running by that time. The
ones running CF would never have caved in to the BF and the ones running
the others didn't need to worry about it because they'd had those
changes from the start well before BF existed. Other than making a lot
of noise, BF made pretty well zero contribution to the fandom other than
to leave a really long lasting dead horse to take a paddle to.

[Karl Xydexx Jorgensen]

> Just WHO was doing the hating, again? :D

Funny... I thought it was the folks who were writing the hate-filled
manifestos, printing up offensive t-shirts, doing their best to piss
off other furry fans, and then having the audacity to complain about
_other_ people's behavior. Be that as it may, it doesn't change that
fact that these measures were put in place before Burned Fur existed,
and your attempts to rewrite history aren't going to change that.

Sorry the truth seems to put a damper on any Walter Mitty fantasies
about Burned Fur's former grandeur, but considering you worked long and
hard to make yourselves a liability, I'd be remiss if I let you dodge
taking responsibility for your actions. -:)

[Karl Xydexx Jorgensen]

>It's history, guys. Don't you have anything better to do?

I do, but I also hate to see misinformation spread. You can see the
bind I'm in.

[Karl Xydexx Jorgensen]

Timmy Ramone wrote:
>However, it was hard for the BF-ers to maintain a credible stance
>against "bad behavior" in furry fandom when, in fact, they were
>some of the worst-behaved fans I've ever encountered.

Bingo.

[Karl Xydexx Jorgensen]

Scott Malcomson wrote:
> I was a member and we didn't make "scattergun accusations" against any group.

o.O

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

That's HILARIOUS. Tell us another joke! -:)

[Karl Xydexx Jorgensen]

GB2CYD.

-X.