DIG-IMP even worse?
Dragon Magic
Now they'll be offering at Confurence a "sample" CD,
which contains thumbnails of every image on every
DI CD currently available, some animations, and a
list of which artist is on which CD.
Instead of paying off artists whose works they still
profit from, they're not pawning off cheap CDs
which they still can earn a profit off of, probably
without any artist's permissions, and still people
want to support these people?
Learn, people, please, that D-I should not be
trusted, and they're out to screw over many
artists. I have a good friend who still has never
been paid from his works on the Cat Scratches
CD, and knew NOTHING about their new
sample disc until I showed him.
mhirtes
Serves ya right! Furry fandom & Kevin deserve each other.
ilr
"Dragon Magic" <cb...@dragonmagic.net> wrote in message news:N_Nw8.8341$Ez5.2...@typhoon.neo.rr.com...
> Okay, now Digital Impudendum has gotten worse...
>
> Now they'll be offering at Confurence a "sample" CD,
> which contains thumbnails of every image on every
> DI CD currently available, some animations, and a
> list of which artist is on which CD.
>
Hmm, So which Convention then was the one he's Banned from?
Dirty pool Darrel, dirty pool.
-Ilr
Darrel L. Exline
The *only* convention that I know of that he's been banned from is Anthrocon,
and that is primarily a matter between him and Kage, as I understand it. I will
not support a blacklist, so the popular argument that if he's banned from one
convention he should be banned from all of them just doesn't hold water.
Kevin Duane is a professional businessman, regardless of the unsubstantiated
claims made against him (ie: "I have a freiend who says he was ripped off..")
here on this newsgroup... most of those claims have been made by Michael Hirtes,
and we all know how reliable a source that is. Kevin Duane is welcome at
ConFurence as long as he doesn't break CF's rules, and there's no indication
that he will.
His compilation discs are popular and do not violate any laws. Attendees of the
convention benefit from Kevin's presence by having those discs available for
sale. Kevin also frequently donates to the Con Suite and does other
publicity-type activities that make the convention more enjoyable.
As for that sample CD, my understanding is that those are smaller, low
resolution thumbnails of the images on the other discs, being used to promote
sales of the full-sized image CDs...
<sarcasm>
That's called ADVERTISING, a practice frequently employed by most business
ventures.
</sarcasm>
I'm sure Kevin is hoping that this will promote sales of the full-sized image
CDs, thus bringing in an income that can be used to pay the artists for their
work.
There's nothing wrong with that.
--
Darrel L. Exline -- Director, "The ConFurence Group"
http://confurence.net dar...@confurence.net
The ConFurence Group, PO Box 84721, San Diego, CA 92138-4721
! ConFurence 2002: April 26 to April 28, 2002, Burbank Hilton !
! Pre-registration form: http://confurence.net/pre-reg.pdf !
Dragon Magic
unsubstantiated
> claims made against him (ie: "I have a freiend who says he was ripped
off..")
> here on this newsgroup... most of those claims have been made by Michael
Hirtes,
> and we all know how reliable a source that is. Kevin Duane is welcome at
> ConFurence as long as he doesn't break CF's rules, and there's no
indication
> that he will.
>
> His compilation discs are popular and do not violate any laws. Attendees
of the
> convention benefit from Kevin's presence by having those discs available
for
> sale. Kevin also frequently donates to the Con Suite and does other
> publicity-type activities that make the convention more enjoyable.
Well, one reason why Kevin's allowed to keep going to CF, donations. (:
Anyways, no, the discs themselves do not violate any laws but the fact that
he continues to solicit more people for new CDs without paying people for
past ones is a big reason that he shold not be trusted. And yes, not myself
but my friend, who has contributed a lot to not only my business but others
as well, was informed last night about the new discs and did not know
anything about them, and was in fact never paid nor given free copies of
the disc he appears in.
Though he wants to take care of it himself, you can find him on the Cat
Scratches CD, as either "Pilot" or "Ned Griffin". I don't think he holds
any illwill against Kevin for non-payment because those works are freely
available online, he is a bit ticked that his images are being reused and
reprinted now without the payment. He even made mention of wanting
to be removed from the discs now.
Again, this will be between Kevin and Ned, but Ned is a very reliable
guy, and if he says he hasn't been paid, he hasn't been paid.
> As for that sample CD, my understanding is that those are smaller, low
> resolution thumbnails of the images on the other discs, being used to
promote
> sales of the full-sized image CDs...
> <sarcasm>
> That's called ADVERTISING, a practice frequently employed by most
business
> ventures.
> </sarcasm>
> I'm sure Kevin is hoping that this will promote sales of the full-sized
image
> CDs, thus bringing in an income that can be used to pay the artists for
their
> work.
Unless he actually has permission, even for smaller versions, to reprint the
images on yet another collection, he's violating copyright law. The contract
I have for print-on-demand states specifically that the artist allows me to
make smaller or less-usable versions of the prints for promotional usage,
including free copies for promotions, etc., so long as they are not the same
as the selling copy. That agreement would have allowed what Kevin does,
but from what I understand, no such agreement has been made with the
artists I have talked to.
So now Kevin *is* violating copyright law if he did not get the permissions
of the artists to reprint their works, even at a smaller resolution, since
he
*is* selling the discs.
But, hey, it's your con, do as you like. I'm just warning people of
DIG-IMP's
continuing ripping off of artists for DIG-IMP's gain.
LancerAdvancd iBuck
>claims made against him (ie: "I have a freiend who says he was ripped off..")
>here on this newsgroup... most of those claims have been made by Michael
>Hirtes,
Um, so everyone who claims they've been ripped off is sockpuppeting Hirtes? I
think I've seen these claims from 4-5 diffrent sources, at least... Several
times -directy- from the artist, even if it's not -HERE-. I'd consider that
fairly reliable. As for Duane being a "Professional Buisnessman" I'd say that
claim's as unsubstantiated as any of the counterclaims.
iBuck
Homepage at http://lanceradvanced.com/Furry
"You can have it these ways :Fancy,Correct,Quickly- Pick 2"
Blackberry
>
>[...]
>Learn, people, please, that D-I should not be
>trusted, and they're out to screw over many
>artists. I have a good friend who still has never
>been paid from his works on the Cat Scratches
>CD, and knew NOTHING about their new
>sample disc until I showed him.
If I were an artist, I would definitely read through the contract from beginning
to end before authorizing anything. You are also allowed to make your own edits
to a contract and resubmit it back prior to final agreement and signing.
--
I will shine with blinding light / Through those hearts as black as night
Sticks and stones may break my bones
But at least the seeds of love will be sown
- Tears For Fears, "Badman's Song"
AJL
> But, hey, it's your con, do as you like. I'm just warning people of
> DIG-IMP's
> continuing ripping off of artists for DIG-IMP's gain.
If you friend doesn't want to complain about it, who made you his
advocate? Your argument doesn't hold water.
--Darrel.
AJL
> Um, so everyone who claims they've been ripped off is sockpuppeting Hirtes? I
> think I've seen these claims from 4-5 diffrent sources, at least... Several
Do the research... Google has a very large archive. I believe that you
will find that people are complaining about someone *ELSE* beign ripped
off, or that htey *heard* that Kevin doesn't pay artists... The artists
themselves who have any beef with Kevin need only contact Kevin and talk
about it. You will find that he is extremely reasonable.
> times -directy- from the artist, even if it's not -HERE-. I'd consider that
> fairly reliable. As for Duane being a "Professional Buisnessman" I'd say that
> claim's as unsubstantiated as any of the counterclaims.
I've done business with him. I find him to act in a very professional
manner. That's first-hand substantiation, there.
--Darrel.
LancerAdvancd iBuck
>If you friend doesn't want to complain about it, who made you his
>advocate? Your argument doesn't hold water.
Who made you the president of the Kevin Duane defense team? Now I can see you
standing up for your con, and saying that you don't have cause to any action
against him till he beaks your con rules, but you don't have to jump in and
defend his buisness practices either, he's as capable of doing that for
himself as the artists are of defending themselves. If you're going to rant
about people acting on behalf of others don't do the same thing...
LancerAdvancd iBuck
I've done the reaserch, and AFF isn't the only place where information, and I
have no reason to doubt the people to whom I've spoken directly to on the
matter
>The artists themselves who have any beef with Kevin need only contact Kevin
and talka bout it.
If he was a professional they shouldn't have to....
>I've done business with him. I find him to act in a very professional
>manner. That's first-hand substantiation, there.
2nd hand by the time it gets to me, why should I take your word, if you won't
accept others? You've got the cards in your relationship with him, he doesn't
pay up, he loses access to CF...
Any way, most sleezes have a professional manner, if they didn't no one would
fall for them...
Dragon Magic
> advocate? Your argument doesn't hold water.
Apparently you missed what I said.
He wasn't that bent out of shape for the original disc, thinking
that hey, it was a bad call and it's over with, but now KD is
remarketing them, and he's still not paid. That's what's getting
him upset, and why now he will be talking to Kevin at the show.
If Kevin can't pay him or other artists, why should he continue
to use their images on his CDs to make money to pay a con
extra to remain in it?
Sounds like someone else's argument doesn't hold up, because
Kevin "buys" your support. On the other hand, I see quite a
few artists who chime up that once again, Kevin ripped them
off. Too bad you don't see them.
Blackberry
Your friend did sign a contract that said that, if the artist does not receive
payment within a specified amount of time, DI lost all rights to the artwork and
could no longer sell it or use it for marketing, right? I hope so. What was
that length of time?
--
I believe in everything, nothing is sacred.
I believe in nothing, everything is sacred.
- from "Even Cowgirls Get the Blues" by Tom Robbins
LancerAdvancd iBuck
>receive
>payment within a specified amount of time, DI lost all rights to the artwork
>and
>could no longer sell it or use it for marketing, right? I hope so. What was
>that length of time?
Hopefully he did, but even lacking a specific time frame to be paid within, I
think that people would be hard presed to find non-payment ethically
acceptable, even if there's no binding legal agreement...
Personally if I had to deal with him in theI'd have two clauses in the
contract...
a) a specified pay period, and an explicit non-payment termination clause
b) any payment in goods to be valued at cost, not retail, not whosale..
production costs
AJL
>
> >
> >If you friend doesn't want to complain about it, who made you his
> >advocate? Your argument doesn't hold water.
>
> Who made you the president of the Kevin Duane defense team? Now I can see you
> standing up for your con, and saying that you don't have cause to any action
I'm sorry.. are you speaking for yourself? Have you had dealings with
Kevin Duane personally?
mhirtes
"Darrel L. Exline" wrote:
>
> ilr wrote:
> >
> > "Dragon Magic" <cb...@dragonmagic.net> wrote in message news:N_Nw8.8341$Ez5.2...@typhoon.neo.rr.com...
> > > Okay, now Digital Impudendum has gotten worse...
> > >
> > > Now they'll be offering at Confurence a "sample" CD,
> > > which contains thumbnails of every image on every
> > > DI CD currently available, some animations, and a
> > > list of which artist is on which CD.
> > >
> > He's allowed at CF?
> > Hmm, So which Convention then was the one he's Banned from?
> > Dirty pool Darrel, dirty pool.
> > -Ilr
>
> The *only* convention that I know of that he's been banned from is Anthrocon,
Really? Never even _went_ to Anthrocon (never really intend to either).
FOX NEWS Special Report to me. They never even bothered to send me a
love letter telling me this.
> and that is primarily a matter between him and Kage, as I understand it.
Or just Kage, since this is the first place I've ever heard this.
> I will
> not support a blacklist, so the popular argument that if he's banned from one
> convention he should be banned from all of them just doesn't hold water.
To actually defend Darell's position (HORRORS!), a ban should only
really occur if there's PROOF of some criminal activity (such as those
highly dubious "pet auctions", which D put a stop to) or something else
that puts the convention under potential legal liability (such as if
Sibe actually would show up with a gun to visit Groat).
The FORMER head of DragonCon used to ban people left & right simply
because HE personally didn't like them. And well, it's already fandom
legend to know where his karma took him eventually.
LancerAdvancd iBuck
>Kevin Duane personally?
You're not speaking for yourself anymore than I am, your speaking for Duane...
I've had direct dealings for several years with Artists on the other end of the
transaction with him.
This isn't just about Duane, it's about Duane AND the Artist, and weather we
should accept 2nd hand stories...
You may only have my word that the artist has only been paid, but I've only got
your word that Duane is reliable. You've given me nothing that's of any more
inherant worth than what you've given me.
Blackberry
>
>"Darrel L. Exline" wrote:
>>
>> ilr wrote:
>> >
>>> "Dragon Magic" <cb...@dragonmagic.net> wrote in message
>>news:N_Nw8.8341$Ez5.2...@typhoon.neo.rr.com...
>> > > Okay, now Digital Impudendum has gotten worse...
>> > >
>> > > Now they'll be offering at Confurence a "sample" CD,
>> > > which contains thumbnails of every image on every
>> > > DI CD currently available, some animations, and a
>> > > list of which artist is on which CD.
>> > >
>> > He's allowed at CF?
>> > Hmm, So which Convention then was the one he's Banned from?
>> > Dirty pool Darrel, dirty pool.
>> > -Ilr
>>
>> The *only* convention that I know of that he's been banned from is Anthrocon,
>
>Really? Never even _went_ to Anthrocon (never really intend to either).
>FOX NEWS Special Report to me. They never even bothered to send me a
You really *do* have to make everything about you, don't you? Or are you saying
that your other personality is Kevin Duane?
Brian Graeme
news:20020422123858...@mb-cd.aol.com...
> >The artists themselves who have any beef with Kevin need only contact
Kevin
> and talka bout it.
>
> If he was a professional they shouldn't have to....
First off, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit... You have absolutely no idea
what you are talking about, nor how real world publishing (and business)
operates... Real world example number one:
A couple of years ago, Playboy Magazine (which, last time I checked was
a PROFESSIONAL business) ran an article detailing the best of the world wide
web, one example they plugged and printed was a Kevin and Kell comic strip,
sans permission and payment... Several people passed word to said artists,
who then contacted Playboy, who politely explained his ownership of the
Kevin & Kell comic strip... Playboy, being PROFESSIONALS, apologized for the
screwup, and paid him for usage of his strip in their article shortly
thereafter... And what was the key operative tactic that gained his success?
He CONTACTED Playboy directly... Why the prompt response? Playboy is a major
publishing company, and has hundreds of people working in their
correspondance department who's sole job is to handle just such a thing...
Now Kevin, on the other hand, is an INDIVIDUAL... Which means
EVERYTHING, correspondance, handling payment, publishing, cover and disc
printing, shipping and anything else I missed, is performed by one man... As
in singular... He has (1) demonstrated the drawbacks of being an individual
in the publishing industry, and (2) paid artists who regularly maintained
contact (usually the swiftest being when he ran into them at comic/furry
conventions, when he had a bulk sum of cash available)... Usually also, when
you're talking sub-press (as in, publishers who produce even smaller press
publications, with print runs smaller than those of minicomics or
independant comics), the majority of payments come AFTER THE PUBLISHING
COSTS HAVE BEEN PAID OFF (remember, at the least, it costs a couple of
thousand dollars just to publish CDs or comics)...
Since the speed of payment for publishing, and subsequent payment to
contributers thereafter largely depends on how well a CD or comic sells,
attempting to destroy a publisher's success in selling a product therefore
hurts the contributers just as much as said publisher... Often the best way
for artists to recoup their pay is by selling contributer copies of the
publications they've contributed to as well, because the pay is fairly
miniscule to begin with... And I don't hear any of you decrying Radio Comix
(who also suffers the aforementioned rule of small publications, often being
able to pay no more than $30 for a single page illo, or $80 for a full color
cover- At least the last paying rate as I recall, correct me if I'm wrong),
who pays more in contributer copies to their artists/writers...
Especially in the case of Duane, who has had well over 30 individual
contributers for his CDs at any given time, and in the meanwhile only has
about 5 or so out of that 30 who have complained about slow/no payment...
Now lets do the math... The 25 artists who maintained regular contact with
Duane make up 80%, while the ones who barely communicate at all represent
20%... An 80% payment rate doesn't strike me as something someone who was
attempting to defraud (as so many effluence spewers have claimed) the
fandom...
Remember: One key component of professionalism is communication...
Sticking your head in the sand and pulling it out only when someone dangles
a dollar in front of it is no way to do business, period...
Oh, but I forget, this isn't about facts, logic, or reality, this is
about flaming someone because someone else made it look cool to do so, come
on everybody, lets jump on the defamation bandwagon! What? You expected to
strike it rich by being published? Sorry, that isn't going to happen unless
you put so many irons in the fire that publishers are willing to compete
with each other to secure the rights to your work and actually hand over a
contract with a years worth art contributions with full pay in advance...
I'm really getting tired of people with their heads up their ass
assuming that because they bought a comic book or two, that it automatically
makes them both an expert on publishing, and a business expert with a BA
from Harvard... Learn, REALLY LEARN how the publishing industry works, and
try your hand at real small press publishing... Or try ANY business where
you supply an in demand service, and are the SOLE operator in said
business... I bet if you did, you'd be singing a different tune...
Ben Raccoon
"AJL" <grap...@ajlvideo.com> wrote in message
news:3CC4389A...@ajlvideo.com...
> LancerAdvancd iBuck wrote:
> > Um, so everyone who claims they've been ripped off is sockpuppeting
Hirtes? I
> > think I've seen these claims from 4-5 diffrent sources, at least...
Several
>
> Do the research... Google has a very large archive. I believe that you
> will find that people are complaining about someone *ELSE* beign ripped
> off, or that htey *heard* that Kevin doesn't pay artists...
Cobalt has posted publically both here and on FAE that he was reclaiming his
copyrights due to non-payment on Kevin's part. I do recall seeing a couple
other artists do much the same. (I believe LoupGarou has made a few
complaints on VCL's message board about Kevin's business practices)
--
http://www.furnation.com/ben_raccoon
Stone's Law: One man's "simple" is another man's "huh?"
Dragon Magic
> what you are talking about, nor how real world publishing (and business)
> operates... Real world example number one:
I hope you do consider that I would have some knowledge, then,
Brian?
> A couple of years ago, Playboy Magazine (which, last time I checked
was
> a PROFESSIONAL business) ran an article detailing the best of the world
wide
> web, one example they plugged and printed was a Kevin and Kell comic
strip,
> sans permission and payment... Several people passed word to said artists,
> who then contacted Playboy, who politely explained his ownership of the
> Kevin & Kell comic strip... Playboy, being PROFESSIONALS, apologized for
the
> screwup, and paid him for usage of his strip in their article shortly
> thereafter... And what was the key operative tactic that gained his
success?
> He CONTACTED Playboy directly... Why the prompt response? Playboy is a
major
> publishing company, and has hundreds of people working in their
> correspondance department who's sole job is to handle just such a thing...
Ah, but I do know artists who try to talk with Kevin, only to be told that
they can pick up their pay or their contributor CDs at the end of the con.
Why at the end? If he has copies of the CDs, give them away then and
there. If he can't pay, offer them copies of the CD *at cost* for them to
sell on their own to recupe their payments.
Kevin does neither. So far, I have heard one individual who went back
to talk to Kevin at the end of the show only to be asked again to email
after the show and he'd ship off the CDs and pay. Still nothing.
> Now Kevin, on the other hand, is an INDIVIDUAL... Which means
> EVERYTHING, correspondance, handling payment, publishing, cover and disc
> printing, shipping and anything else I missed, is performed by one man...
As
> in singular... He has (1) demonstrated the drawbacks of being an
individual
> in the publishing industry, and (2) paid artists who regularly maintained
> contact (usually the swiftest being when he ran into them at comic/furry
> conventions, when he had a bulk sum of cash available)... Usually also,
when
> you're talking sub-press (as in, publishers who produce even smaller press
> publications, with print runs smaller than those of minicomics or
> independant comics), the majority of payments come AFTER THE PUBLISHING
> COSTS HAVE BEEN PAID OFF (remember, at the least, it costs a couple of
> thousand dollars just to publish CDs or comics)...
Actually, right now, I'm pretty much running Dragon Magic with a couple
remote helpers who do graphics and database management. That's one
man for billing, receiving, ordering, taxes, customer service, etc., and
that's the price I pay for being in a very niche market. However, I still
try hard to get things done ASAP, and I have two side jobs, one where
I go to a previous employer to do PHP programming and server
administration for large companies, and the other where I simply get paid
to help those who need computer or internet assistance. Both of these
pay my personal bills and try to bring some income back into the business,
which hasn't made a profit yet.
But why do I keep it up? Because I enjoy it, and I want to bring more
to the markets where I spent most of my money in high school. (:
And yes, I do print my own stuff, and I do the proper calculations to
ensure that I can recuperate my costs of printing, as well as pay those
involved with it.
And there are plenty of CD places out there who do small run printing,
100-500 CDs at a time, silkscreened, at about $2-$4 each. At $20 each
disc, well, there's a hell of a lot of leeway there, since they have booths
setup at shows where they sell their goods. But instead of paying artists,
and there are still plenty who say they can't get Kevin to return emails
or send them what he's agreed IN CONTRACT to send them, for years
after the products have been released, he's spending money supporting
a con with their consuite, etc.
Sorry, but he has other priorities than buying a con's favouritism.
> Since the speed of payment for publishing, and subsequent payment to
> contributers thereafter largely depends on how well a CD or comic sells,
> attempting to destroy a publisher's success in selling a product therefore
> hurts the contributers just as much as said publisher... Often the best
way
> for artists to recoup their pay is by selling contributer copies of the
> publications they've contributed to as well, because the pay is fairly
> miniscule to begin with... And I don't hear any of you decrying Radio
Comix
> (who also suffers the aforementioned rule of small publications, often
being
> able to pay no more than $30 for a single page illo, or $80 for a full
color
> cover- At least the last paying rate as I recall, correct me if I'm
wrong),
> who pays more in contributer copies to their artists/writers...
If his CDs don't sell well enough to pay the artists, here's an idea...
STOP PRINTING THEM. He's packing more and more artists on
a CD with a guarantee, last I saw, of $15 per image they get on that
CD... That means that if he packs 400 images onto a CD, then there's
$6,000 he has to pay out. If a CD doesn't make them back $6,000
after a year or two of being published, why the hell would they
continue putting out more? In hopes that the new ones will pay
back old ones?
Brian, what you have to understand, is no matter how you view
Kevin Duane's attempts at bringing a resource to the community,
he's making promises he cannot keep, and he's ripping off artists
who signed an agreement with them. He avoids the lesser artists
to keep the better artists happy. I'm fairly sure that you, and Steve
Martin, and Malcolm Earle, etc., are paid first, since your names
are well known, but what about the smaller talents, whose works
maybe appear on one disc, only two or three images? They are
the ones who get screwed.
> Especially in the case of Duane, who has had well over 30 individual
> contributers for his CDs at any given time, and in the meanwhile only has
> about 5 or so out of that 30 who have complained about slow/no payment...
> Now lets do the math... The 25 artists who maintained regular contact with
> Duane make up 80%, while the ones who barely communicate at all represent
> 20%... An 80% payment rate doesn't strike me as something someone who was
> attempting to defraud (as so many effluence spewers have claimed) the
> fandom...
Hey, it's still artists getting screwed. And just because only five speak up
out
of thirty, does not mean that twenty-five others are all happy and paid up.
Could be that the artists just felt that the venture was bad and they'll
wipe it
up as a learning experience. It's hardly worth trying to sue KD for $15 or
$30 on a CD, when it'll take way too much time out of their hands to get it.
However, this doesn't mean we can't warn future people about him and
his practices. I'd prefer people fully inform artists who haven't quite
heard
of his schemes to stay away! Or at least fully educate them on what has
happened, what the sales per CD are, and how many images are on them,
so they can see that somehow, people are not going to get paid.
> Remember: One key component of professionalism is communication...
> Sticking your head in the sand and pulling it out only when someone
dangles
> a dollar in front of it is no way to do business, period...
That's precisely what Kevin does, though. Unless you're a big name, or
going to do more work for him, or going to buy his discs, he'll just rather
deal with you later or forget about you altogether.
Kevin's company has approached my company to sell their CDs, and I
flatly ignored the email. Don't need to sell them. Don't want to sell them.
And I won't support someone who has screwed over personal friends of
mine and has now decided to infringe on their rights.
> Oh, but I forget, this isn't about facts, logic, or reality, this is
> about flaming someone because someone else made it look cool to do so,
come
> on everybody, lets jump on the defamation bandwagon! What? You expected to
> strike it rich by being published? Sorry, that isn't going to happen
unless
> you put so many irons in the fire that publishers are willing to compete
> with each other to secure the rights to your work and actually hand over a
> contract with a years worth art contributions with full pay in advance...
Or that others have not bothered putting 400+ images on a CD to sell
at $20 each because, I don't know, it's not going to be profitable in the
furry market? Why do you think there are no other large scale CD-ROM
image CDs out there, Brian? I have the resources to do it, but I'd rather
try to solve how best to bring value and profit to it, rather than say,
"I can have people buy these, and I'll just try to forget about the
artists as long as I can!"
If artists want to print their own CDs, hell, they can contact me and I'll
get them through the self-publishing fires if they want to try. It's a
mild investment of a couple thousand up front at most for a small run,
then they just need to find a distributor or push the marketing themselves.
Look around the web, plenty of places to get CD printing done.
But those of us who are trying to be in business for legitimate reasons
and NOT screw people over, aren't trying to put 400+ images on
a CD and sell it for cheap, because we'll lose a lot of money paying
back the artists.
> I'm really getting tired of people with their heads up their ass
> assuming that because they bought a comic book or two, that it
automatically
> makes them both an expert on publishing, and a business expert with a BA
> from Harvard... Learn, REALLY LEARN how the publishing industry works, and
> try your hand at real small press publishing... Or try ANY business where
> you supply an in demand service, and are the SOLE operator in said
> business... I bet if you did, you'd be singing a different tune...
Okay, how about someone who's worked with a self-publishing company,
RAK Graphics, since about 1994, done the research, has self-published
works, is currently a retailer, distributor, and publisher, and talks with
the
artists about other ventures they do? Doesn't what I say matter in this
debate here, Brian?
I for one know what Digital Impudendum does in publishing is a problem,
in that unless they can sell 400+ CDs of a single title in the first year,
they'll
either lose money, or they'll forget about paying artists. Since they have
about 20 CDs, they're either really stupid to lose that much money, they're
somehow selling hundreds of CDs and yet no one I know has purchased
one retail, they're getting venture capital to continue losing money, or
they're just not paying the artists.
Which do you think is fitting here, Brian?
Dragon Magic
his
> copyrights due to non-payment on Kevin's part. I do recall seeing a couple
> other artists do much the same. (I believe LoupGarou has made a few
> complaints on VCL's message board about Kevin's business practices)
Yes, I do recall LoupGarou ranting about Kevin not paying him, but
I have not heard what has happened since.
But if someone has reclaimed publishing rights, and Kevin's still printing
the CD and putting his images on the sample disc...
(:
LancerAdvancd iBuck
what you are talking about, nor how real world publishing (and business)
operates...
I've got a pretty good idea about how it works, and professionalism is about
meeting commitments, not keeping in touch ...
(Speaking of which, how's my comission coming?)
> Remember: One key component of professionalism is communication...
>Sticking your head in the sand and pulling it out only when someone dangles
>a dollar in front of it is no way to do business, period...
It's a two way street, keeping your head in the sand and pulling it out when
someone waves a lawsuit in your face is no way to do buisness either...
Profesionalism is doing the right thing in the first place, not doing the right
thing -after- someone brings it to your attention.
I got dragged from New England to a federal courtroom in Flordia because my
former emplayer didn't do the right thing in the first place. They're a
multi-million dollar buisness, but they still were -unprofessional-
The artists should display profesionalism by keeping in contact with Duane,but
that's no excuse for Duane not to do the same.
If he's over his head with the running a one man show then he should cut back
on making new commitments or get someone to help him out.
I personally wasn't making an issue of Darrels's assesment of Duane's
profesionalism, or him running a consuite while he's in debt to various
artists, or his making a advertising CD for sale, or even if his CD's are a
good thing for the fandom even if the artists arn't paid.
My only real issue is with this whole thing is with Darrel jumping on people
for standing up for the unheard artists, while he stands up for the as yet
unheard Duane..
If the artists are expected to bring their own cases here, then Duane can do
the same. If 3rd parties should butt out, then Darrel should follow his own
advice.
mhirtes
Dragon Magic wrote:
>
>
> Ah, but I do know artists who try to talk with Kevin, only to be told that
> they can pick up their pay or their contributor CDs at the end of the con.
> Why at the end? If he has copies of the CDs, give them away then and
> there. If he can't pay, offer them copies of the CD *at cost* for them to
> sell on their own to recupe their payments.
>
> Kevin does neither. So far, I have heard one individual who went back
> to talk to Kevin at the end of the show only to be asked again to email
> after the show and he'd ship off the CDs and pay. Still nothing.
And last I heard, Fernando Faria STILL hasn't received any payment for
his works, nor has Jerry Collins recieved squat from any of the JC
original art Kevin sold for him at LAST year's ConFurence.
As for Brian "Evil Stimpy" Graeme, I find it ironic/comical that we have
a person who's known for taking payment but not providing art defending
the "honor" of someone who takes art but doesn't provide payment.
AJL
> after the products have been released, he's spending money supporting
> a con with their consuite, etc.
>
> Sorry, but he has other priorities than buying a con's favouritism.
First off, he's not "supporting the con suite"... I said he has been
known to donate to it. This was always somethign he did as a surprise,
and he's not alone. Several people usually donate to the con suite in
one way or another during a convention.
Secondly, I believe he usually does this to help regain some of the
goodwill that he loses everytime some jerkoff dredges up a 5-year-old
complaint about some artist who had trouble reaching him, and blows it
way out of proportion.
If he never pays artists, how come he can still go to conventions? The
same conventions where the artists will be? Don't you think that he'd
have a bit of explaining to do to *all* those unpaid artists? The
answer is that the people with the problems are in the minority, or they
didn't understand quite how the system works.
No one is getting rich off the fandom, that's for sure. I work 45+
hours per week just to make ends meet, and then spend about $350 per
month on ConFurence's office expenses YEAR ROUND. That's my own money,
not the funds from Pre-registrations! Radio Comix puts out several
titles every month, and is still struggling to make ends meet. Kevin
Duane does these CD's on the side, not as his primary business. What...
you think he can make enough to support himself on selling CD's alone?
As far as I know, he is still operating at a loss.
> If his CDs don't sell well enough to pay the artists, here's an idea...
> STOP PRINTING THEM. He's packing more and more artists on
> a CD with a guarantee, last I saw, of $15 per image they get on that
> CD... That means that if he packs 400 images onto a CD, then there's
> $6,000 he has to pay out. If a CD doesn't make them back $6,000
> after a year or two of being published, why the hell would they
> continue putting out more? In hopes that the new ones will pay
> back old ones?
Who does it help to stop producing them? Does it allow the artist to
have their work distributed? If Kevin is willing to make up the
difference to keep DI alive at a loss, it actually benefits the
fandom... it doesn't hurt it.
> but what about the smaller talents, whose works
> maybe appear on one disc, only two or three images? They are
> the ones who get screwed.
What happens if DI stops producing the discs? Do the smaller artists
have the resources to create and distrubte their own collections of
CD's? Without DI, there wouldn't even be the POTENTIAL for them to get
paid for their works.
Some artists have even taken DI's idea and produced their own discs.
More power to them! But they had to have the money up front to do that.
> However, this doesn't mean we can't warn future people about him and
> his practices. I'd prefer people fully inform artists who haven't quite
> heard
> of his schemes to stay away! Or at least fully educate them on what has
> happened, what the sales per CD are, and how many images are on them,
> so they can see that somehow, people are not going to get paid.
I'd be interested to know what business you are in. Can you post your
revenues and expenditures publicly so we can all review and criticize
them?
No?
Well, that's basically what you are asking Kevin to do, arent you?
> Kevin's company has approached my company to sell their CDs, and I
> flatly ignored the email. Don't need to sell them. Don't want to sell them.
> And I won't support someone who has screwed over personal friends of
> mine and has now decided to infringe on their rights.
That's *your* decision. However, posting wild generalizations about
Kevin's business practices from your biased point of view based on a few
reports from people you haven't identified... well that's not kosher.
If you don't want to do business with him, then don't. But if you want
to slander him, be prepared to go on the defensive.
> I for one know what Digital Impudendum does in publishing is a problem,
> in that unless they can sell 400+ CDs of a single title in the first year,
> they'll
> either lose money, or they'll forget about paying artists. Since they have
> about 20 CDs, they're either really stupid to lose that much money, they're
> somehow selling hundreds of CDs and yet no one I know has purchased
> one retail, they're getting venture capital to continue losing money, or
> they're just not paying the artists.
So by your logic: "Kevin's business model is bad, he can't possibly
succeed. Therefore we should badmouth him and boycott his products to
put him out of business."
Tell me again how that helps the artists?
--Darrel.
Dragon Magic
> known to donate to it. This was always somethign he did as a surprise,
> and he's not alone. Several people usually donate to the con suite in
> one way or another during a convention.
So donating to a for-profit con isn't supporting it? What do you
consider support, then?
Also, just because others do it, doesn't escape the fact that there
are many artists who complain years after they've done work for
Kevin, they still haven't been paid, when he's been giving money
to other, unnecessary funds.
> Secondly, I believe he usually does this to help regain some of the
> goodwill that he loses everytime some jerkoff dredges up a 5-year-old
> complaint about some artist who had trouble reaching him, and blows it
> way out of proportion.
Actually, there are still artists who have tried and failed to get Kevin
to either email them back or get them their money and copies at a
show they're at with Kevin.
If after five years Kevin still hasn't paid them and they're still at the
same contact details, that's a HUGE problem. If he's losing goodwill
because he can't pay five-year-old problems, then he deserves it.
> If he never pays artists, how come he can still go to conventions? The
> same conventions where the artists will be? Don't you think that he'd
> have a bit of explaining to do to *all* those unpaid artists? The
> answer is that the people with the problems are in the minority, or they
> didn't understand quite how the system works.
Maybe because he donates to the con?
And yes, he does have a bit of explaining to all those unpaid artists.
Most have given up hope that he'll ever contact them or pay them.
Does that mean that they don't want the money? NO, it means that
the trouble to get that small amount of money isn't worth it anymore.
If Kevin sent them what they were owed, I'm sure they'd be happy
about it.
And how hard is the system, "You put my image on a CD, you
pay me $15 each time you do so"? Doesn't seem hard to me.
Maybe it's too hard for Kevin?
> No one is getting rich off the fandom, that's for sure. I work 45+
> hours per week just to make ends meet, and then spend about $350 per
> month on ConFurence's office expenses YEAR ROUND. That's my own money,
> not the funds from Pre-registrations! Radio Comix puts out several
> titles every month, and is still struggling to make ends meet. Kevin
> Duane does these CD's on the side, not as his primary business. What...
> you think he can make enough to support himself on selling CD's alone?
> As far as I know, he is still operating at a loss.
But the fact is that Kevin's still pressing CDs and not paying back what
he owes. This is a major problem. Artists deserve to know that there
are plenty of other artists who still have never been paid.
If he's operating at a loss, then close up shop. I don't feel sorry for him,
since I'm just now starting to see a profit coming this year. No one's cried
for me for losing money, and I don't expect them to.
But why am I seeing a profit coming? I'm cutting stuff that's LOSING
money. Kevin's still putting out stuff that's losing money, after all these
years.
> Who does it help to stop producing them? Does it allow the artist to
> have their work distributed? If Kevin is willing to make up the
> difference to keep DI alive at a loss, it actually benefits the
> fandom... it doesn't hurt it.
Well, if the artists aren't going to get paid, it helps them. How? Well,
they signed an agreement to let Kevin use their copyright and he would
pay him. If he's not going to pay them, they shouldn't have to let him
use their copyright.
He's still making money off the sales, and that's using the lesser artists.
The ones he forgets about, to pay the well known ones.
> What happens if DI stops producing the discs? Do the smaller artists
> have the resources to create and distrubte their own collections of
> CD's? Without DI, there wouldn't even be the POTENTIAL for them to get
> paid for their works.
What happens if he continues? Each one he prints, there's over $6000 he
owes yet again.
And DI is *not* the only place to sell your works. Look at Rabbit Valley
and I. United Publications, Radio Comix, Frontier Publishing. Plenty of
alternatives.
> Some artists have even taken DI's idea and produced their own discs.
> More power to them! But they had to have the money up front to do that.
Yeah, but if they print through DI, more than likely they won't get a
return.
If they print them themselves, they see their returns.
> I'd be interested to know what business you are in. Can you post your
> revenues and expenditures publicly so we can all review and criticize
> them?
If I were a public company, I would be forced to. But since I'm not, I see
no reason to post my earnings and losses, or my business ledger at all.
Is Confurence's online? Can I get a free audit of their ledger?
No business in the furry market is really a public company. However,
Kevin's is really the only business who has a reputation for fleecing
artists.
> No?
>
> Well, that's basically what you are asking Kevin to do, arent you?
Except that most of my past dues are mostly caught up. Plus I'm not
going forward with more ventures using past ventures which haven't
panned out, either.
All I'm stating is that if the CDs aren't making enough to pay back the
aritsts, stop printing more. Period. Makes no sense to continue making
a loss unless it really isn't a loss, and artists are getting screwed when
they don't need to be.
> That's *your* decision. However, posting wild generalizations about
> Kevin's business practices from your biased point of view based on a few
> reports from people you haven't identified... well that's not kosher.
It really isn't biased, nor is it wild generalizations. Ask the artists on
the
CDs whether they've been paid. Look at threads on VCL, here, Yerf,
etc. Go to artists at your show and ask them.
There are even artists I work with who have never worked with Kevin
and don't plan on it because of what they hear from their artist friends.
And I have identified the friend in the original post who hasn't been paid.
But like the other complaints which come across here, you've chosen
to ignore it.
Go read again.
> If you don't want to do business with him, then don't. But if you want
> to slander him, be prepared to go on the defensive.
First off, learn your legal jargon. It would be libel, except that I can
prove
it's true. All I would have to do is ask artists to sign affidavits that
they
have not been paid for their contracted work, and I'd probably see at
least a dozen within the first week of pissed off past artists.
But I'm not here to try to start a class-action lawsuit, I'm here to inform
people that Kevin's illegally reusing artwork to sell at a show, in order
to promote further sales of CDs which artists haven't been paid for yet.
That's a big problem, regardless of the blind eye you've turned to it.
> So by your logic: "Kevin's business model is bad, he can't possibly
> succeed. Therefore we should badmouth him and boycott his products to
> put him out of business."
If the truth badmouths him, perhaps he should change his business plan?
If he can't pay artists, then why should fans of those artists buy his CDs?
Why not just buy direct from the aritsts?
> Tell me again how that helps the artists?
If he stops abusing artists and their rights for his own profits, then that
helps a great deal. Cut the losses, stop screwing them over, and that
will help them and future artists.
Brian Graeme
> Kevin does neither. So far, I have heard one individual who went back
> to talk to Kevin at the end of the show only to be asked again to email
> after the show and he'd ship off the CDs and pay. Still nothing.
Untrue... In fact, if you look at the reports on Kevin's "inability to
pay", most of the complaintants involved also complained that they were
offered free CDs for them to sell to cover part of their payments (when at
said conventions in question were already swamped in DI CDs, usually because
Duane was already there)...
How can he buy a con's favoritism? As so many have claimed, he doesn't
*pay* anybody... Kinda self contradictory, isn't it?
>
> If his CDs don't sell well enough to pay the artists, here's an idea...
> STOP PRINTING THEM. He's packing more and more artists on
> a CD with a guarantee, last I saw, of $15 per image they get on that
> CD... That means that if he packs 400 images onto a CD, then there's
> $6,000 he has to pay out. If a CD doesn't make them back $6,000
> after a year or two of being published, why the hell would they
> continue putting out more? In hopes that the new ones will pay
> back old ones?
That would be just as good as simply never publishing the CDs to begin
with (which many, with long standing grudges against Duane have done, any
Google search over the last 10+ years will show this), which in turn means
nobody gets paid either... Ever see 'Moon Over Parador'? The classic line
is: "Leave them wanting you."... That is done by generating interest in, and
subsequently releasing a new product... That is how you ensure return
customers and continued interest in your product... If every publisher
stopped publication of new works simply because they couldn't pay 2-3
contributers on time, you wouldn't have anything to sell... In addition,
slamming someone's business to the point where they make no sales, then the
artists not being paid becomes a self fulfilling prophecy...
> Brian, what you have to understand, is no matter how you view
> Kevin Duane's attempts at bringing a resource to the community,
> he's making promises he cannot keep, and he's ripping off artists
> who signed an agreement with them. He avoids the lesser artists
> to keep the better artists happy. I'm fairly sure that you, and Steve
> Martin, and Malcolm Earle, etc., are paid first, since your names
> are well known, but what about the smaller talents, whose works
> maybe appear on one disc, only two or three images? They are
> the ones who get screwed.
Sorry, but that's wrong as well... You don't get Paul Newman into a
movie by giving the janitor a raise... It's called scale pay, and most who
recieve any pay at all are lucky to get it when the movie company feels like
it... Every movie/TV show in existance has used extras, who are even luckier
if they somehow get any payment more than exposure... He doesn't avoid
artists outright, in fact, most of the artists who don't get paid, as I've
stated, avoid contact with him...
> Hey, it's still artists getting screwed. And just because only five speak
up
> out
> of thirty, does not mean that twenty-five others are all happy and paid
up.
> Could be that the artists just felt that the venture was bad and they'll
> wipe it
> up as a learning experience. It's hardly worth trying to sue KD for $15 or
> $30 on a CD, when it'll take way too much time out of their hands to get
it.
Yes, but instead of it being simply Kevin doing this, it's those who do
their best to ruin his sales that become accesories to the fact...
> However, this doesn't mean we can't warn future people about him and
> his practices. I'd prefer people fully inform artists who haven't quite
> heard
> of his schemes to stay away! Or at least fully educate them on what has
> happened, what the sales per CD are, and how many images are on them,
> so they can see that somehow, people are not going to get paid.
>
> That's precisely what Kevin does, though. Unless you're a big name, or
> going to do more work for him, or going to buy his discs, he'll just
rather
> deal with you later or forget about you altogether.
>
> Kevin's company has approached my company to sell their CDs, and I
> flatly ignored the email. Don't need to sell them. Don't want to sell
them.
> And I won't support someone who has screwed over personal friends of
> mine and has now decided to infringe on their rights.
That is indeed your right, but you are, on the other hand, by slamming
the CD, ensuring that Kevin cannot afford to pay any other artists,
therefore screwing over artists by proxy... You can choose not to carry his
CDs, but what gives you the right to decide for everyone else what they
should or should not buy?
> Or that others have not bothered putting 400+ images on a CD to sell
> at $20 each because, I don't know, it's not going to be profitable in the
> furry market? Why do you think there are no other large scale CD-ROM
> image CDs out there, Brian? I have the resources to do it, but I'd rather
> try to solve how best to bring value and profit to it, rather than say,
> "I can have people buy these, and I'll just try to forget about the
> artists as long as I can!"
He does neither, as stated before, he needs to be reminded now and then
of his obligations... As a furry artist who has the same number as, if not
more obligations, I can tell you outright that unless you keep and maintain
a perfect schedule/database of such, it can be a logistical nightmare, and
very difficult to keep track of... If you don't have the best level of
organizational skills, then it can be compounded by the fact that most
consumers in this era of instantaneous gratification are remarkably
impatient... Who gets the priorities? Those who are patient and polite, or
those who try to get everything they want by screaming as loudly as
possible?
> If artists want to print their own CDs, hell, they can contact me and I'll
> get them through the self-publishing fires if they want to try. It's a
> mild investment of a couple thousand up front at most for a small run,
> then they just need to find a distributor or push the marketing
themselves.
> Look around the web, plenty of places to get CD printing done.
>
> But those of us who are trying to be in business for legitimate reasons
> and NOT screw people over, aren't trying to put 400+ images on
> a CD and sell it for cheap, because we'll lose a lot of money paying
> back the artists.
But that's the problem, you see... Kevin ISN'T trying to rip off the
artists, he doesn't have a majickal blessing that excludes him from the most
basic rules of supply and demand... Kevin goes to every convention he can,
often by bus to try and keep costs down... If he's lucky, after table,
hotel, food (and often he feeds many of the artists he runs into at cons,
partially to schmooze, and otherwise to be nice) and travel costs, he can
perhaps recoup $500 with which to pay a handful of the artists on his CD...
In your case, the worst you have to deal with is the printing costs of
art prints (which are absorbed almost immediately as many are printed on
demand only), and shipping... In the cases of comics, you purchase those in
bulk, and as a result, the artists are already paid... There is no adequate
comparison...
> Okay, how about someone who's worked with a self-publishing company,
> RAK Graphics, since about 1994, done the research, has self-published
> works, is currently a retailer, distributor, and publisher, and talks with
> the
> artists about other ventures they do? Doesn't what I say matter in this
> debate here, Brian?
I confirmed my statements with my mom, and she used to work for Marvel
Comics for chrissakes... And if a publisher with HUNDREDS of employees can
occasionally slip up with paying contributers (look at any mainstream
magazine, you see those articles and cartoons/illustrations? The
contributers don't see one penny for up to a YEAR after publication), how is
it fair to expect someone who largely does all the work (come on, this is
often artwork scanned in months ago before the art was sold, and is largely
available online to begin with) to be able to do any better?
It's not you, nor your attempts to sabotage his business dealings I have
issue with, it's the uneducated fanboys who take your word, and worse, take
even more ignorant fanboys rantings against the guy as gospel...
> I for one know what Digital Impudendum does in publishing is a problem,
> in that unless they can sell 400+ CDs of a single title in the first year,
> they'll
> either lose money, or they'll forget about paying artists. Since they have
> about 20 CDs, they're either really stupid to lose that much money,
they're
> somehow selling hundreds of CDs and yet no one I know has purchased
> one retail, they're getting venture capital to continue losing money, or
> they're just not paying the artists.
>
> Which do you think is fitting here, Brian?
How about PROMOTING the CDs instead of trying to nuke them out of
existance? Nobody wants to, because they've heard in the second, third, and
fourth party that Kevin doesn't pay his contributers, so why is it so hard
to figure out that he's not going to be able to, since the badmouthing he's
gotten has considerably cut his sales? Hell, you didn't even see if you
could apply any working business model to the CD sales, instead opting to
join the Kevin Duane lynch mob...
Now if you want to know the real facts, Kevin has a definate stubborn
streak, and tends to refuse any and all advice... He also tends to
oversupply the market (instead of publishing 500 very sellable CDs for
$1,500, he'd rather do 1,000 market oversaturating CDs for $1,000 because he
saves money on each CD, you get the idea)
Brian Graeme
I should be able to finish that over the next two weeks, as I have other
formally contractural obligations to fulfil as well as covering rent, bills,
supporting my mom and roomy til they get work, etc...
But again, it takes communication to maintain that understanding and be
informed... Part of that professionalism thing...;)
Dragon Magic
> >
>
> How can he buy a con's favoritism? As so many have claimed, he doesn't
> *pay* anybody... Kinda self contradictory, isn't it?
Look at the start of the thread.
He helps sponsor parts of Confurence.
> >
> > If his CDs don't sell well enough to pay the artists, here's an idea...
> > STOP PRINTING THEM. He's packing more and more artists on
> > a CD with a guarantee, last I saw, of $15 per image they get on that
> > CD... That means that if he packs 400 images onto a CD, then there's
> > $6,000 he has to pay out. If a CD doesn't make them back $6,000
> > after a year or two of being published, why the hell would they
> > continue putting out more? In hopes that the new ones will pay
> > back old ones?
>
> That would be just as good as simply never publishing the CDs to begin
> with (which many, with long standing grudges against Duane have done, any
> Google search over the last 10+ years will show this), which in turn means
> nobody gets paid either... Ever see 'Moon Over Parador'? The classic line
> is: "Leave them wanting you."... That is done by generating interest in,
and
> subsequently releasing a new product... That is how you ensure return
> customers and continued interest in your product... If every publisher
> stopped publication of new works simply because they couldn't pay 2-3
> contributers on time, you wouldn't have anything to sell... In addition,
> slamming someone's business to the point where they make no sales, then
the
> artists not being paid becomes a self fulfilling prophecy...
Uh, so, if you're at a loss, and you owe people money, then you should
stop paying them to release new products?
Would you like people like me and Rabbit Valley to stop paying you
for print-on-demand sales if we need the money to get new inventory
in, Brian?
I doubt you would, so don't tell other artists they should accept it if
you yourself won't.
> > Brian, what you have to understand, is no matter how you view
> > Kevin Duane's attempts at bringing a resource to the community,
> > he's making promises he cannot keep, and he's ripping off artists
> > who signed an agreement with them. He avoids the lesser artists
> > to keep the better artists happy. I'm fairly sure that you, and Steve
> > Martin, and Malcolm Earle, etc., are paid first, since your names
> > are well known, but what about the smaller talents, whose works
> > maybe appear on one disc, only two or three images? They are
> > the ones who get screwed.
>
> Sorry, but that's wrong as well... You don't get Paul Newman into a
> movie by giving the janitor a raise... It's called scale pay, and most who
> recieve any pay at all are lucky to get it when the movie company feels
like
> it... Every movie/TV show in existance has used extras, who are even
luckier
> if they somehow get any payment more than exposure... He doesn't avoid
> artists outright, in fact, most of the artists who don't get paid, as I've
> stated, avoid contact with him...
But if you don't pay the janitors, then you can have a union come down
hard on you. Remember, companies go out of business all the time
because they can't pay their workers, their creditors and their taxes.
So why is it we should extend Kevin that generosity so that he can
pay people like you and Steven and Malcolm, etc.?
Or, in other words, why should we keep making Paul Newman movies
if we can't afford to pay the rest of the staff? Just to make Paul happy?
> > Hey, it's still artists getting screwed. And just because only five
speak
> up
> > out
> > of thirty, does not mean that twenty-five others are all happy and paid
> up.
> > Could be that the artists just felt that the venture was bad and they'll
> > wipe it
> > up as a learning experience. It's hardly worth trying to sue KD for $15
or
> > $30 on a CD, when it'll take way too much time out of their hands to get
> it.
>
> Yes, but instead of it being simply Kevin doing this, it's those who
do
> their best to ruin his sales that become accesories to the fact...
It's not that we're ruining his sales, we're trying to stop him from
exploiting
MORE people by not paying them. If he has money to throw at a con,
or even SETUP at a con, he has money to pay artists. He has a couple
distributors listed on his page, so he should have them do the sales for
him. He can also easily setup a Yahoo! Store if he's doing enough to get
a table at a convention or two.
There are plenty of alternatives for him to start making more sales, or
to pay back artists, but he seems reluctant to do so. Why? What's the
reason?
That's what all the other artists should know, so they don't get screwed.
If he's going to use their work to make a profit, then ignore them after
they've sent him their work, then that's not us hurting his sales, that's
HIM hurting his sales.
> > However, this doesn't mean we can't warn future people about him and
> > his practices. I'd prefer people fully inform artists who haven't quite
> > heard
> > of his schemes to stay away! Or at least fully educate them on what has
> > happened, what the sales per CD are, and how many images are on them,
> > so they can see that somehow, people are not going to get paid.
> >
> > That's precisely what Kevin does, though. Unless you're a big name, or
> > going to do more work for him, or going to buy his discs, he'll just
> rather
> > deal with you later or forget about you altogether.
> >
> > Kevin's company has approached my company to sell their CDs, and I
> > flatly ignored the email. Don't need to sell them. Don't want to sell
> them.
> > And I won't support someone who has screwed over personal friends of
> > mine and has now decided to infringe on their rights.
>
> That is indeed your right, but you are, on the other hand, by slamming
> the CD, ensuring that Kevin cannot afford to pay any other artists,
> therefore screwing over artists by proxy... You can choose not to carry
his
> CDs, but what gives you the right to decide for everyone else what they
> should or should not buy?
But by putting out MORE CDs, he's also doing the same. He's blowing money
that should go back to paying previous artists, and going further into debt.
Sorry, not seeing a good outlook to your argument to support me not trying
to educate people on his tactics.
And I'm not saying to everyone, "DO NOT CARRY HIS CDS OR ELSE!"
I'm giving people the facts behind it and telling them that they shouldn't
carry or purchase his stuff, because he doesn't get around to paying the
lesser artists. They don't have to listen to me, they can choose to do as
they
please. I wish I had the power that when I said something, it was done.
But I don't, so I don't delude myself that I can. Why should you make it
seem like I do?
> > Or that others have not bothered putting 400+ images on a CD to sell
> > at $20 each because, I don't know, it's not going to be profitable in
the
> > furry market? Why do you think there are no other large scale CD-ROM
> > image CDs out there, Brian? I have the resources to do it, but I'd
rather
> > try to solve how best to bring value and profit to it, rather than say,
> > "I can have people buy these, and I'll just try to forget about the
> > artists as long as I can!"
>
> He does neither, as stated before, he needs to be reminded now and
then
> of his obligations... As a furry artist who has the same number as, if not
> more obligations, I can tell you outright that unless you keep and
maintain
> a perfect schedule/database of such, it can be a logistical nightmare, and
> very difficult to keep track of... If you don't have the best level of
> organizational skills, then it can be compounded by the fact that most
> consumers in this era of instantaneous gratification are remarkably
> impatient... Who gets the priorities? Those who are patient and polite, or
> those who try to get everything they want by screaming as loudly as
> possible?
Just like you do? I mean, so far people have said many times that they
are still waiting on their commissions, as I am, but I know you're busy.
I do expect it hopefully soon, though.
If he cannot maintain his obligations, what right does he have to keep
on doing what he does and then people cannot say anything about it?
If he chooses to continue at a loss, knowing that he forgets about
artists, and still puts out more CDs, then why shouldn't other people
let the public and other artists know about this?
> > If artists want to print their own CDs, hell, they can contact me and
I'll
> > get them through the self-publishing fires if they want to try. It's a
> > mild investment of a couple thousand up front at most for a small run,
> > then they just need to find a distributor or push the marketing
> themselves.
> > Look around the web, plenty of places to get CD printing done.
> >
> > But those of us who are trying to be in business for legitimate reasons
> > and NOT screw people over, aren't trying to put 400+ images on
> > a CD and sell it for cheap, because we'll lose a lot of money paying
> > back the artists.
>
> But that's the problem, you see... Kevin ISN'T trying to rip off the
> artists, he doesn't have a majickal blessing that excludes him from the
most
> basic rules of supply and demand... Kevin goes to every convention he can,
> often by bus to try and keep costs down... If he's lucky, after table,
> hotel, food (and often he feeds many of the artists he runs into at cons,
> partially to schmooze, and otherwise to be nice) and travel costs, he can
> perhaps recoup $500 with which to pay a handful of the artists on his
CD...
SO??? If he cannot pay artists, STOP MAKING THE CDS. How is this
a hard concept for you to understand, Brian? We're not going to excuse
YEARS of failure to pay artists and continuing to avoid them just because
he pays a few artists and he's not making a profit.
Cry me a river already. If he's a business, he's here to make a profit.
If he can't make a profit, change the business plan or fold already. That's
how business works.
> In your case, the worst you have to deal with is the printing costs of
> art prints (which are absorbed almost immediately as many are printed on
> demand only), and shipping... In the cases of comics, you purchase those
in
> bulk, and as a result, the artists are already paid... There is no
adequate
> comparison...
Or the tee shirts, which are similar to CDs. Gotta pay to have the screen
done, then setup costs, then the run. I do print tee shirts, Brian, don't
forget.
But again, if Kevin can't make the current business plan work after all
these
years, change the plan or fold already. Stop defending it already, just
because
you get paid. There are plenty of others who do not. What are you telling
them,
that they should accept the losses so people like you can get your pay?
> > Okay, how about someone who's worked with a self-publishing company,
> > RAK Graphics, since about 1994, done the research, has self-published
> > works, is currently a retailer, distributor, and publisher, and talks
with
> > the
> > artists about other ventures they do? Doesn't what I say matter in this
> > debate here, Brian?
>
> I confirmed my statements with my mom, and she used to work for Marvel
> Comics for chrissakes... And if a publisher with HUNDREDS of employees can
> occasionally slip up with paying contributers (look at any mainstream
> magazine, you see those articles and cartoons/illustrations? The
> contributers don't see one penny for up to a YEAR after publication), how
is
> it fair to expect someone who largely does all the work (come on, this is
> often artwork scanned in months ago before the art was sold, and is
largely
> available online to begin with) to be able to do any better?
Because he doesn't ship thousands of titles a week, and he doesn't have
the catalog that Marvel has? Kevin is NOWHERE near what Marvel is.
At beast, Kevin's more of where United Publications is, AT BEST, and
that's not a large company, either. Yet no one has a problem with them
that I'm aware, yet dozens have problems with Kevin over the past
few years of not being paid.
Plus now that Confurence is stating he's put extra money into the show
in the past, when he's had obligations to pay others. Still not seeing a
good
resolution for your case here, Brian, to make Kevin look like a victim
of a flamewar.
> It's not you, nor your attempts to sabotage his business dealings I
have
> issue with, it's the uneducated fanboys who take your word, and worse,
take
> even more ignorant fanboys rantings against the guy as gospel...
And what about the other artists who have said something? On other forums?
People take their word, too.
If his business is built on screwing over artists, then yes, he deserves to
have
the truth told. You were one of the people upset that Sibe was taking your
works and reposting them, after all. That was taking your hard work and
taking it out of your hands, to give it away. Only this time, Kevin's
business
plan screws over other artists, takes their works, and makes him MONEY
from it, and then ignores them.
I'm not seeing how you can be hypocritical about this at all. Either you
want
people to respect artists, or that artists should accept being screwed
because
the business plan can't meet the requirements of their contracts.
> > I for one know what Digital Impudendum does in publishing is a problem,
> > in that unless they can sell 400+ CDs of a single title in the first
year,
> > they'll
> > either lose money, or they'll forget about paying artists. Since they
have
> > about 20 CDs, they're either really stupid to lose that much money,
> they're
> > somehow selling hundreds of CDs and yet no one I know has purchased
> > one retail, they're getting venture capital to continue losing money, or
> > they're just not paying the artists.
> >
> > Which do you think is fitting here, Brian?
>
> How about PROMOTING the CDs instead of trying to nuke them out of
> existance? Nobody wants to, because they've heard in the second, third,
and
> fourth party that Kevin doesn't pay his contributers, so why is it so hard
> to figure out that he's not going to be able to, since the badmouthing
he's
> gotten has considerably cut his sales? Hell, you didn't even see if you
> could apply any working business model to the CD sales, instead opting to
> join the Kevin Duane lynch mob...
Because by promoting them, I'm promoting the screwing over of artists. I
don't
care if he manages to sell 1,000 CDs in a month, if he's still not going to
pay
artists. And if it's cutting his sales, GOOD. He can stop profiting off
others
without paying them their part of the agreement.
And my working business model? PUT LESS ON THE CD. PUT NEW
ART ON THE CD. MAKE IT BETTER QUALITY.
People will want that kind of stuff better, especially if they are aware the
artists listed on the CD *are* paid for their works before and during the
publication of the CD. That buying the CD, the artists are also making
money.
If Kevin after all this time can't see that putting 400+ images on a CD and
promising to pay $15 per image to artists isn't going to work for getting
everyone compensated, then he deserves the lynch mob. He should stop
his current business plan and switch to one where people GET PAID and
he can MAKE A PROFIT, or just close shop now. If he can at least pay
people while making a loss, hey, at least he's making his commitments, and
I'd support that at least.
But that's not likely to happen, since he still owes people from the 20th
Century.
> Now if you want to know the real facts, Kevin has a definate stubborn
> streak, and tends to refuse any and all advice... He also tends to
> oversupply the market (instead of publishing 500 very sellable CDs for
> $1,500, he'd rather do 1,000 market oversaturating CDs for $1,000 because
he
> saves money on each CD, you get the idea)
And we should support him?
Because he has bad business sense, we should support him in the
hopes that he'll eventually get a clue to pay people off and do something
that makes this possible?
Still not seeing a positive outlook to your argument, Brian.
Brian Graeme
Fine, you want to keep your own opinions on the matter, fine... What I'm
trying to do, however, is enlighten you and others to the fact that there's
more than one side to this story, which, until I chipped in, was very
lopsided (and biased)... However, Kevin isn't worthy of the demonization
that you and others have given...
"Dragon Magic" <cb...@dragonmagic.net> wrote in message
news:732x8.11200$Ez5.3...@typhoon.neo.rr.com...
mhirtes
Brian Graeme wrote:
>
> > (Speaking of which, how's my comission coming?)
>
> I should be able to finish that over the next two weeks,
Oh yeah. The old "two weeks" stall-o-rama. What'd I tell ya folks?
mhirtes
http://vcl.ctrl-c.liu.se/vcl/Artists/Karri-Aronen/faunial.jpg
Then again, THESE are the types of people who DO:
http://vcl.ctrl-c.liu.se/vcl/Artists/Karri-Aronen/HappyNudeDeer.jpg
Guess that explains everything, huh?
Dragon Magic
> trying to do, however, is enlighten you and others to the fact that
there's
> more than one side to this story, which, until I chipped in, was very
> lopsided (and biased)... However, Kevin isn't worthy of the demonization
> that you and others have given...
Actually, he is.
In fact, anyone who makes an agreement with people and then completely
dismisses them to continue doing more such agreements, deserve
the demonization presented in this thread.
If Kevin can't simply make the current catalog live on to pay the artists
on them, then how will selling even more new CDs work out? Besides
flooding the market with more titles which will cause less overall sales
per CD?
Still not seeing a positive spin on your argument to make us see Kevin
as a victim, or this argument going one side. We've conceded that
Kevin does pay *SOME* artists, the problem is that he's not paying
them all, still printing more CDs, and now is reprinting prior works
on a new CD on the guise of "advertising" while selling this new CD.
Hey, public education on the matters of someone who does this is a
GOOD thing.
LancerAdvancd iBuck
>that you and others have given...
Some of don't think he's worth the kudos either, or demonizing the peole who
have issues with him....
Brian Graeme
banning any and all artists who had dealings with Duane from all furry cons
in the future, if he had any participation in the MTV debacle... As one such
artist, you damnned well bet I'm going to defend and fight for my
interests... How's that for demonization?
"LancerAdvancd iBuck" <lncra...@aol.comstar> wrote in message
news:20020422205920...@mb-ff.aol.com...
LancerAdvancd iBuck
>Kevin's business practices from your biased point of view based on a few
>reports from people you haven't identified... well that's not kosher.
DragonMagic has identified at least one artist in question, and it's not a "5
year old complaint" nor has the artist "Had trouble reaching Duane" from the
conversations I've had with him...
It may not reach to the heights that DM's pushing it, but it's indicitive that
this real issue, not "unsubstantiated" much less"slander"
The only question is how big a problem it is, and who's fault it is, and there
are only 2 sets of people who can clear that up the - artists or Duane,
anything else is hearsay, including your defenses of Duane..
As for helping the fandom, that's great when you volunter your own resources,
not someone elses...
ilr
"Darrel L. Exline" <dar...@polarden.org> wrote in message news:3CC42451...@polarden.org...
>
>
> There's nothing wrong with that.
>
Sorry man, wasn't *trying* to start a Flamewar here. :(
Just kinda wanted to voice a hint of disaproval Plus
I never intended the logic of a Blacklist. I just expected
you might be a bit more supportive of the artists who got
cheesed by him :\
-Ilr
LancerAdvancd iBuck
>banning any and all artists who had dealings with Duane from all furry cons
>in the future, if he had any participation in the MTV debacle... As one such
>artist, you damnned well bet I'm going to defend and fight for my
>interests... How's that for demonization?
And if you go back you'll see that I laid in on what a lame brained idea that
was...
That doesn't mean that Duane doesn't deserve some flack in those cases when he
has gotten behind in his payments. Or that the people who bring these
complaints forward should be dismissed out of hand..
Take the cases on their merits, and comment on them to the extent that they
deserve to be commented on.. Don't automatically go out on a limb to defend
Duane, it might get cut out from under you..
LancerAdvancd iBuck
>artists, he doesn't have a majickal blessing that excludes him from the most
>basic rules of supply and demand...
Yes, but all of your arguments assume that Duane pays people -only- from the
sales of his CD's... it's called a "Day Job" and is way to pay the bills for
every small buisness that isn't supporting itself yet...
>Every movie/TV show in existance has used extras, who are even luckier
>if they somehow get any payment more than exposure...
I assume you have a fairly stock agreement with DI. Did you agree to "scale
pay" or a flat per picture fee, regardless of sales?
>Ever see 'Moon Over Parador'? The classic line is: "Leave them wanting
you."... That is done by generating interest in, and
>subsequently releasing a new product...
A movie that's about a guy escaping from an dangerously untenable position...
LancerAdvancd iBuck
Good to hear, I've got a backlog myself that I've got to get over and finish
up some peices, but I don't have people breathing down my neck because I've
made an effort to keep in touch... sorta that professionalism thing... :D
Brian Graeme
> > But that's the problem, you see... Kevin ISN'T trying to rip off the
> >artists, he doesn't have a majickal blessing that excludes him from the
most
> >basic rules of supply and demand...
>
> Yes, but all of your arguments assume that Duane pays people -only- from
the
> sales of his CD's... it's called a "Day Job" and is way to pay the bills
for
> every small buisness that isn't supporting itself yet...
With which Kevin has to also support a family, etc etc etc (and in case
you haven't noticed, the Canuck economy isn't the rosiest on the
continent)... Most of his profits go back into production and selling at
cons (which, due to the exchange rate, means he pays roughly 1.75 Canadian
for every dollar he spends in the US)...
> >Every movie/TV show in existance has used extras, who are even luckier
> >if they somehow get any payment more than exposure...
>
> I assume you have a fairly stock agreement with DI. Did you agree to
"scale
> pay" or a flat per picture fee, regardless of sales?
I get a flat rate per image, of which is my own business, and noone
elses'... I also make sure I'm paid in advance... It isn't a major loss for
me, because otherwise it's mainly low (as in screen resolution) quality
scans that otherwise are regularly seen online, from art archives over a 14
year period (stuff which otherwise I would not be paid for, and haven't, for
simply posting it online)...
> >Ever see 'Moon Over Parador'? The classic line is: "Leave them wanting
> you."... That is done by generating interest in, and
> >subsequently releasing a new product...
>
> A movie that's about a guy escaping from an dangerously untenable
position...
In a nutshell, yeah, but that's the position for anyone attempting to
publish furry works... Either nobody cares enough to buy it at all, or they
hold you to the same expectations they would attribute to multimillion
dollar corporations...
Brian Graeme
If any furries were (as has happened with a few), there would probably
either not be a fandom to begin with, or we'd have amusement parks built on
the theme, you'd see fursuit stores in shopping malls, and other
miscellaneous furry stuff on teevee other than cutesy puke cartoons and Greg
the Bunny...
"LancerAdvancd iBuck" <lncra...@aol.comstar> wrote in message
news:20020422225248...@mb-ff.aol.com...
ilr
"Dragon Magic" <cb...@dragonmagic.net> wrote in message news:mvXw8.8991$Ez5.2...@typhoon.neo.rr.com...
> > If you friend doesn't want to complain about it, who made you his
> > advocate? Your argument doesn't hold water.
>
> Apparently you missed what I said.
>
> He wasn't that bent out of shape for the original disc, thinking
> that hey, it was a bad call and it's over with, but now KD is
> remarketing them, and he's still not paid. That's what's getting
> him upset, and why now he will be talking to Kevin at the show.
> If Kevin can't pay him or other artists, why should he continue
> to use their images on his CDs to make money to pay a con
> extra to remain in it?
>
> Sounds like someone else's argument doesn't hold up, because
> Kevin "buys" your support. On the other hand, I see quite a
> few artists who chime up that once again, Kevin ripped them
> off. Too bad you don't see them.
>
Y'know, I'm really hesitant to chime in here, first because I
just meant to quietly make one little remark and be on my way.
Then I was sort of exploded upon for it with more details than
I ever wanted to know really. And I must admit it seems a wee
too professional(read: Congress and Lobbyists) that Kev isn't
paying off all his contributers yet comes up with the kind of
scratch to get a convention's attention on a "Suite", WeverTF
that might be. And even worse, Hirtes is backing this, which
has me slightly wracked with fear and paranoia for some reason.
However, I've seen claims directly from artists too(not that
I really cared enough to even remember their names) and all
the Hear-Say here as well. But the one thing I haven't seen
shouted out here is the actual contracts. It's weird like that
because I've also seen artists right here in fact who claim they
got paid for everything. So why do some artists get paid all
the way, and some NEVER get paid? Is this an issue with
contracts? Are these artists who never get paid not actually
getting a contract on paper, none, or just a verbal one?
Maybe Kev's really really a business man, IE cheating everyone
that he can legally cheat. Or am I missing some important
info on low-detail Default-Contracts? Well, expect some
fogginess there because no one's come forward comparatively
with any contracts yet, just hearsay and sparse 1st-hand claims.
Maybe it's time to focus on the REAL business aspects here?
-Ilr
LancerAdvancd iBuck
>publish furry works... Either nobody cares enough to buy it at all, or they
>hold you to the same expectations they would attribute to multimillion
>dollar corporations...
I don't see that the standard that Duane is being held to is all that absurd,
if these problems are as small as their made out , then Duane should be able to
fix them easilly. Neither me nor DM would be here if we hadn't hadn't been
told straight from artist freinds that they hadn't been paid... If he's not
fixing small problems then it begs the question, why not?
I've yet to see any real evidence that Duane's "reputation for nonpayment" has
hampered anything but his ability to recruit -new- artists... If he's got a
stable of good pro's like you that feels he's honest, then he can get new work
from them, and play catch as catch can with the new blood or comission newbies
with cash up front..
As allways with AFF, smoke and fury, signifying nothing...
Dr. K
>>banning any and all artists who had dealings with Duane from all furry cons
>>in the future
wow, i completely missed that little discussion. that would have been a hoot,
cuz as soon as those artists got banned from a con simply cuz they dealt with
assman Duane before--including crowd pleasers Schwartz and Max BR---all o ya
would have been crying in your beers.
just cuz assman has a bad reputation doesnt necessarily reflect the
personalities of any of the folks featured on his discs.
like i said, i missed that conversation so im puttin my 2 cents in now.
now, regarding him and his lack of paying folks: money doesnt make itself.
assman has to sell these discs to make the money to pay the artists. thats how
things work, kidz. besides, what with all the bad reputations and rumors about
duane floating around....well, if an artist chooses to ignore these and
proceeds to roll the dice and work with him regardless....well what did you
expect? heh.
true, assman WILL disappear for months on end without word at all, but you can
always count on him to get your cash (unless youre being a total ass about it,
then he just makes you wait more to rub yer face in it). you just have to give
him a bit of time to make the money on disc sales. ive been with him for about
8 discs now id say, and so far he hasnt skipped paying me. maybe not in money
at times, but airfare and hotel accomidations to conventions is certainly good
enough payment in my book.....
ilr
"Brian Graeme" <doge...@ibtta.moc> wrote in message news:aa28va$2fde$1...@velox.critter.net...
But that just sucked Brian :P
Terry Whittier
No proof.
Only heresay and innuendo. Rumors and
personal judgements.
I'm not hearing from the artists on this.
Just you.
Can you get them to back you up? Why not?
Every artist that I've talked to has said that
they have been paid or otherwise compensated,
to their satisfaction, for their contributions
to the Digital Impudendum CDs.
Think about it. Why else would all those artists
continue to contribute to the CDs? CD after CD.
Dozens of artists. Are you implying that they
are all ceaselessly gullible idiots?
Why don't you ask the artists who have appeared
on the CDs if they want you trying to kill off one of their
sources of income? Sources of funds they have
been using to pay rent or fix their car or travel
to conventions.
Before you continue, think about how much
harm you are doing to the livelihood of
the artists.
Dragon Magic
Read again. Named one artist who *IS* on your Cat Scratches
CD. Go look in the records to see whether he's been paid?
He claims he still hasn't but never bothered because it was
too difficult to get a response from Kevin.
> No proof.
You have the records. Have you paid every artist from CDs
released before 2001?
> Only heresay and innuendo. Rumors and
> personal judgements.
Again, artists *have* said, here, Yerf, VCL, etc.,
that they've not received payments from Kevin. It's amazing
that we can remember seeing many threads on these, but
the people who support Kevin say that there have been none.
Amazing disappearing threads?
Go check on Google Groups, you'll find some.
> I'm not hearing from the artists on this.
> Just you.
And artists say they can't get replies from emails.
Are you guys deleting them? What's going on?
> Can you get them to back you up? Why not?
Would you prefer the class-action lawsuit? No one
would, probably, but hey, if Dig-Imp wants to play
a game where they're magically paying off artists
who just want to tarnish Kevin's reputation by saying
they've never been paid, then maybe that's what it'll
take to get them compensated?
> Every artist that I've talked to has said that
> they have been paid or otherwise compensated,
> to their satisfaction, for their contributions
> to the Digital Impudendum CDs.
But have you talked to everyone involved ever with
Dig-Imp CDs? That's the whole point. Just because
you talk to maybe Steve or Brian or Michele, etc.,
doesn't mean that 100% of the artists are in the same
boat.
> Think about it. Why else would all those artists
> continue to contribute to the CDs? CD after CD.
> Dozens of artists. Are you implying that they
> are all ceaselessly gullible idiots?
Because the big names get their pay, while the lesser
ones who never return are screwed over. THAT's the
whole point of this thread. Try reading before you
reply.
> Why don't you ask the artists who have appeared
> on the CDs if they want you trying to kill off one of their
> sources of income? Sources of funds they have
> been using to pay rent or fix their car or travel
> to conventions.
WHAT INCOME? If you guys don't pay, THERE IS
NO INCOME. How is this a hard equation? It's not
killing off a method of income if after YEARS artists
can't get their payments. It was never there to begin
with. What's happening, instead, is with education that
you guys DO screw over artists, YOUR income will
be killed off. Not theirs. They can still sell prints, with
a better return of pay.
And I highly doubt $15 payments are enough to fix
a car or travel to conventions. Don't paint Dig-Imp
as a saviour to artists, it's not.
> Before you continue, think about how much
> harm you are doing to the livelihood of
> the artists.
What, awakening them to the Dig-Imp scam?
Oh, no, I'm harming the likelihood that they'll have
to chase Kevin down, beg mercifully to get their
scraps, only to be ignored or be told they can only
get copies of the CDs they were on at retail instead
of pay. Geez, what was I THINKING???
ilr
"Terry Whittier" <tpuffie...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:aa2mco$2pt5$1...@velox.critter.net...
> Why don't you ask the artists who have appeared
> on the CDs if they want you trying to kill off one of their
> sources of income? Sources of funds they have
> been using to pay rent or fix their car or travel
> to conventions.
>
> Before you continue, think about how much
> harm you are doing to the livelihood of
> the artists.
>
I think I've gotten more Livlihood out of the BurgerKing Dumpster :P
-Ilr
LancerAdvancd iBuck
>Every artist that I've talked to has said that
>they have been paid or otherwise compensated,
>to their satisfaction, for their contributions
>to the Digital Impudendum CDs.
Repeat what you said about, facts, proof and hearsay... Dragon Magic's named
the one artist he knows in this thread allready, other people have named
others...
>Before you continue, think about how much
>harm you are doing to the livelihood of
>the artists.
When you go on the attack this is where you have to prode your own proofs...
the closest thing I've seen to people saying they wont buy the CD's is them
saying they'll get the CD's from the -artists- and not DI directly.. These
arguments arn't changing anyone's minds but the artists..
mhirtes
Terry Whittier wrote:
>
>
> Every artist that I've talked to has said that
> they have been paid or otherwise compensated,
Which means you haven't you spoken to Jerry Collins......
....or to Fernando Faria......
.....or to Karabiner.
Charles Melville
Brian Graeme wrote:
> In a nutshell, yeah, but that's the position for anyone attempting to
> publish furry works... Either nobody cares enough to buy it at all, or they
> hold you to the same expectations they would attribute to multimillion
> dollar corporations...
That's true. Duane is being held to -exactly- the same expectations as
multimillion dollar corporations: you commission work from a freelancer, you pay
for it. There is no difference. If he can't afford to pay his contributors
within a reasonable span of time, then he should never have commisioned them in
the first place. And he should make full restitution before doing anything
else.
--
-Chuck Melville-
http://www.zipcon.net/~cpam/index.htm
Don Sanders
--
Don Sanders.
mhirtes
Or better yet, when real inspires parody.
Timmy Ramone
>
> I'm sorry.. are you speaking for yourself? Have you had dealings
> with Kevin Duane personally?
I've had dealings with Mr. Duane in the past. Regardless of my
personal and professional opinion of him, I agree with Darrell that
Kevin (or anyone else) should not be "blacklististed" from CF, as
long as they behave themselves at CF.
CF's blackballing of the press, however, is another matter.
--
"Hey, ho -- let's go!" -Ramones
AJL
>
> He helps sponsor parts of Confurence.
>
Let's just make one thing clear: Obviously people have decided to fill
in their own blanks about my earlier statement because it wasn't
qualified enough wtih details.
When I said that Kevin has helped sponsor the ConSuite in the past, I
DID NOT mean to say that he threw any money at me, nor did he come up
with the thousand dollars worth of food and sodas that it takes to run a
Con Suite... He has in the past brought food to CF Events and given it
out freely. THAT's what I meant by helping sponsor the con suite, and I
was offering that information in the light that in my experience, he is
not EVIL as some here might want you to believe.
He has never done anything wrong at ConFurence for as long as I have
been in a position to be aware of such things. No artist has ever come
to me and said "I will be at ConFurence and want to keep Kevin Duane
from illegally selling my artwork." IF they had, then *and only then*
am I going to take action.
Rnatings and heresay about what has happened at other cons, or to
artists who dont feel they've been wronged so blatantly to be able to
come forward themselves, DOES NOT deserve repeating here. At that point
it is just heresay and rumor.
He *may* have done busines with artists that was not to the artist's
advantage, but let THEM speak ill of him. My personal business dealings
with him have been mutually beneficial.
My "standing up in his defense" is merely an attempt to stop the rampant
rumors that I have been hearing for the last several years, which become
a self-fulfilling prophecy because it hurts Kevin's business, and
therefore hurts his ability to pay artists.
The conclusion that several rumor-mongers have reached here on this
group that KEvin only pays the big names is COMLETELY unsubstantiated,
and you can't tell me that you have his bookeeping information, and
unless you personally contact each and every artist on the CD's to find
out their payment status, how can you make such a claim?
That's all I have to say on this thread. I won't be following up
further unless someone makes a wild rumor I have to correct.
--Darrel.
AJL
If nay artists comes to me with a problem AT CONFURENCE regarding Kevin
Duane (or any other dealer, for htat matter) I will definitely lend htem
an ear and do whatever it takes to make things right.
I am FOR the artists, not against them. Kevin being able to sell his
discs can only help those artists that he owes money to, not hurt them.
--Darrel.
Atara
>I won't be following up
>further unless someone makes a wild rumor I have to correct.
Psst... I heard Darrel really likes lima beans!
--
Atara
"Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus."
http://www.FurNation.com/Atara/
***What doesn't fit in my email addy? NADA.***
LancerAdvancd iBuck
>advantage, but let THEM speak ill of him.
Duane can speak for himself as well, but I agree, enough has been said..
Dragon Magic
> in their own blanks about my earlier statement because it wasn't
> qualified enough wtih details.
No, I quite remember the quote:
Kevin also frequently donates to the Con Suite and does other
publicity-type activities that make the convention more enjoyable.
That means that he's giving to the Con Suite and does other publicity
to make the CONVENTION, not the ARTISTS, more enjoyable.
He should be giving that money to the artists, not to your Convention,
which is considered SPONSORING, whether or not you put him in
the book.
> When I said that Kevin has helped sponsor the ConSuite in the past, I
> DID NOT mean to say that he threw any money at me, nor did he come up
> with the thousand dollars worth of food and sodas that it takes to run a
> Con Suite... He has in the past brought food to CF Events and given it
> out freely. THAT's what I meant by helping sponsor the con suite, and I
> was offering that information in the light that in my experience, he is
> not EVIL as some here might want you to believe.
No, but he makes your convention more enjoyable, which would bring
in more people, which would bring in more money for you. Why on earth,
if artists are still owed money, is he paying for food for congoers, instead
of putting it back into his own resource pool?
> He has never done anything wrong at ConFurence for as long as I have
> been in a position to be aware of such things. No artist has ever come
> to me and said "I will be at ConFurence and want to keep Kevin Duane
> from illegally selling my artwork." IF they had, then *and only then*
> am I going to take action.
Well, you may just have people start, because from what I hear, no one
was asked permission to have their images reposted on the Sample CD,
which is being sold. Regardless of what it's considered, it would seem
that Kevin would be posting a profit from the sales of those CDs, and
none of the artists will be paid from their images, even small, being on
them.
> Rnatings and heresay about what has happened at other cons, or to
> artists who dont feel they've been wronged so blatantly to be able to
> come forward themselves, DOES NOT deserve repeating here. At that point
> it is just heresay and rumor.
Not heresay. I specifically said one artist friend of mine who was never
paid, and yet you still replied that I never mentioned one. Jeremy Mullins
on the Yahoo! Group "ZigZagforever" stated that he's not been paid, but
it was a recent venture and he's patient. Eric Schwartz there also said that
the reason why he no longer deals with Kevin Duane is because he took
too long to get Eric his money.
If Kevin is a good businessman, why are all these people saying that they've
not been paid, or they get their money way too late? Why are other artists
avoiding Kevin like the plague, hearing about the problems of Kevin from
their very friends, who were already screwed over? What about the threads
that happen about once a season here from a new artist who just found
out what Kevin's like, and got screwed over?
Maybe we're making all this up? It's a big conspiracy to ruin Kevin's
"good" business? Or maybe it's time to realize that Kevin's business plan
is a flop and he needs to change it or give it up already.
> He *may* have done busines with artists that was not to the artist's
> advantage, but let THEM speak ill of him. My personal business dealings
> with him have been mutually beneficial.
THEY ARE, you're simply ignoring them all. Just because I do not directly
deal with Kevin, does not mean I do not know what goes on. I have many
friends who are professional artists, and a few of them have dealt with
Kevin way back when. No pay. *yawns*
It's the same story, and it will continue until the artists get educated and
either demand pay up front, or just tell Kevin to go to hell.
> My "standing up in his defense" is merely an attempt to stop the rampant
> rumors that I have been hearing for the last several years, which become
> a self-fulfilling prophecy because it hurts Kevin's business, and
> therefore hurts his ability to pay artists.
If they've been going on for years, and still today artists we've come to
respect say that Kevin either has trouble paying them, or hasn't gotten
around to paying them, don't you think it would be time to stop calling them
rumours? Or are you that bent on keeping Kevin happy so he gives more
to your con to bring in the congoers?
If you don't want people standing up for the artists, then stop standing up
for Kevin. He's got a newsreader, he can explain why so many people
have complaints.
But he can't, or he won't.
> The conclusion that several rumor-mongers have reached here on this
> group that KEvin only pays the big names is COMLETELY unsubstantiated,
> and you can't tell me that you have his bookeeping information, and
> unless you personally contact each and every artist on the CD's to find
> out their payment status, how can you make such a claim?
Again, you don't check Kevin's books, and I highly doubt you've done an
audit of his keepings. I do know several artists, and other artists have
spoken up on their own. You choose to ignore these, saying they're either
nonexistent or heresay, and that Kevin does no wrong.
Sorry, nope, you can stay deluded, but you won't convince anyone that
it's only a bunch of rumours.
> That's all I have to say on this thread. I won't be following up
> further unless someone makes a wild rumor I have to correct.
No one's made any rumours. You've just chosen to ignore facts to make
sure you keep Kevin happy. No one bought it.
Dragon Magic
> discs can only help those artists that he owes money to, not hurt them.
If you are FOR the artists, then why do you choose to ignore what
they've said about Kevin?
And if selling his discs can only help artists he owes money to, why is
he going further in debt to artists by pressing MORE discs? He's got
like half a dozen discs "Coming Soon". Why can't he STOP going
farther into debt, and stop buying stuff for your con, and just start
paying back all the previous artists?
If he doesn't have books on who is owed, I say all the artists who have
worked for him ask for their payments again. Teach him a lesson on
not keeping books for all this time. If he does keep books, why is it
that he can't pay these artists their money? Most, if not all, haven't
changed their addresses, and with six-degrees, SOMEONE has
contact with them.
A simple, "I need to reach {ARTIST}, does someone have his/her
current information?"
The fact remains, Kevin's business practices are shady, and artists and
consumers deserve to know that he will eventually screw the artists,
and the money sometimes will not go back to any artists, but rather for
Kevin, his company, or cons he attends, instead of the artists who are
owed for work done years ago.
Blackberry
>
>> Let's just make one thing clear: Obviously people have decided to fill
>> in their own blanks about my earlier statement because it wasn't
>> qualified enough wtih details.
>
>No, I quite remember the quote:
>
>Kevin also frequently donates to the Con Suite and does other
>publicity-type activities that make the convention more enjoyable.
>
>That means that he's giving to the Con Suite and does other publicity
>to make the CONVENTION, not the ARTISTS, more enjoyable.
>
>He should be giving that money to the artists, not to your Convention,
>which is considered SPONSORING, whether or not you put him in
>the book.
Darrel can defend himself, but is there anything in "donates" that says "money"?
If I donate a shirt to Goodwill, did I donate a shirt or did I donate money that
I could have used to pay my power bill? To me, I donated a shirt.
Darrel claims that it means food and goodwill. You claim that it means money.
Who would know the facts better?
>No, but he makes your convention more enjoyable, which would bring
>in more people, which would bring in more money for you. Why on earth,
>if artists are still owed money, is he paying for food for congoers, instead
>of putting it back into his own resource pool?
Maybe you should ask *him*. Seems to me you'd get a much better answer.
>Well, you may just have people start, because from what I hear, no one
>was asked permission to have their images reposted on the Sample CD,
>which is being sold. Regardless of what it's considered, it would seem
>that Kevin would be posting a profit from the sales of those CDs, and
>none of the artists will be paid from their images, even small, being on
>them.
I ran an independent music label for a while. In that business, it's quite
common to include a clause in a contract that allows the company to use sample
full works (images, in this particular case) and to use sampled bits of images
in advertising and promotional materials. I don't know what kinds of contracts
that the artists sign with DI (because no one is willing to tell me, which is
fair), but it's very possible that there's a promotional clause. You should
double-check with an artist who signed one of the contracts.
If they didn't sign a contract and handed their art over to someone anyway on
the promise of future payment, without so much as a signature on an IOU... they
have little recourse.
>> [...]
>> He *may* have done busines with artists that was not to the artist's
>> advantage, but let THEM speak ill of him. My personal business dealings
>> with him have been mutually beneficial.
>
>THEY ARE, you're simply ignoring them all. Just because I do not directly
>deal with Kevin, does not mean I do not know what goes on. I have many
>friends who are professional artists, and a few of them have dealt with
>Kevin way back when. No pay. *yawns*
>
>It's the same story, and it will continue until the artists get educated and
>either demand pay up front, or just tell Kevin to go to hell.
You're blaming Darrel for something that Kevin does. Why? Again, if the
artists sign bad contracts, it's their own fault.
Darrel is allowing someone to buy dealer space at Confurence. Darrel has to
worry that the dealer is not breaking any laws. If Kevin Duane is not honoring
his contracts, then he is breaking contracts, which might be enough reason for
him not to be welcome, but he is not technically breaking laws as such. Even
then, some proof that he's breaking contracts would help. I don't doubt that
you read on some mailing list that a few artists are worked up about getting
paid late, but frankly anyone can just say that.
>[...]
>Again, you don't check Kevin's books, and I highly doubt you've done an
>audit of his keepings. I do know several artists, and other artists have
>spoken up on their own. You choose to ignore these, saying they're either
>nonexistent or heresay, and that Kevin does no wrong.
>
>Sorry, nope, you can stay deluded, but you won't convince anyone that
>it's only a bunch of rumours.
What would be the grounds for banning him from a convention? Late payments? If
you ban everyone who's made a late payment when they promised to pay something
on time... including credit card bills... utility bills... car loans... loans
between friends... why hold a convention at all? No one will be allowed to show
up.
>> That's all I have to say on this thread. I won't be following up
>> further unless someone makes a wild rumor I have to correct.
>
>No one's made any rumours. You've just chosen to ignore facts to make
>sure you keep Kevin happy. No one bought it.
You can prove that Darrel's sole mission in life and in running Confurence is to
keep Kevin Duane happy? Please provide some evidence.
--
I believe in everything, nothing is sacred.
I believe in nothing, everything is sacred.
- from "Even Cowgirls Get the Blues" by Tom Robbins
Blackberry
>
>> I am FOR the artists, not against them. Kevin being able to sell his
>> discs can only help those artists that he owes money to, not hurt them.
>
>If you are FOR the artists, then why do you choose to ignore what
>they've said about Kevin?
Again, what evidence have they substantiated? So far, some people on some
mailing list somewhere said something and that was reported by someone and
posted on some newsgroup. Doesn't hold up in court, unfortunately.
If there's evidence, provide some.
And what is grounds for barring people from attenting conventions? As I said in
my other post, is it disliking the rapidity of their payments on accounts
payable?
He's operating as a business; get these people who haven't been paid to complain
to the Better Business Bureau; if they're true, they'll remove his business
license.
>If he doesn't have books on who is owed, I say all the artists who have
>worked for him ask for their payments again. Teach him a lesson on
>not keeping books for all this time. If he does keep books, why is it
>that he can't pay these artists their money? Most, if not all, haven't
>changed their addresses, and with six-degrees, SOMEONE has
>contact with them.
>
>A simple, "I need to reach {ARTIST}, does someone have his/her
>current information?"
A simple, "I need to reach Kevin Duane, does someone have his/her current
information?" Both parties are usually capable of communication. If they're
owed money and *want* to collect, there are *many* avenues available to them,
from bitching on a newsgroup to Judge Judy.
>The fact remains, Kevin's business practices are shady, and artists and
>consumers deserve to know that he will eventually screw the artists,
>and the money sometimes will not go back to any artists, but rather for
>Kevin, his company, or cons he attends, instead of the artists who are
>owed for work done years ago.
Yes, but you're asking Darrel to toss him out of a convention based on rumor.
Do you know how many rumors are spread in furry fandom daily? No convention
could last if they tossed out anyone who had ever had a rumor spread about them
on alt.fan.furry.
Dragon Magic
"money"?
>
> If I donate a shirt to Goodwill, did I donate a shirt or did I donate
money that
> I could have used to pay my power bill? To me, I donated a shirt.
>
> Darrel claims that it means food and goodwill. You claim that it means
money.
> Who would know the facts better?
Well, unless Kevin owns a snackfood and soda company, he's got to pick
up those items somehow. More than likely he's paying for it, rather than
stealing it. So yes, it is money, even indirect, that could go to artists
instead.
> Maybe you should ask *him*. Seems to me you'd get a much better answer.
If artists have a hard time getting money from him, what would cause him
to answer my question of "why" or "where's it all going" if I asked him?
> I ran an independent music label for a while. In that business, it's
quite
> common to include a clause in a contract that allows the company to use
sample
> full works (images, in this particular case) and to use sampled bits of
images
> in advertising and promotional materials. I don't know what kinds of
contracts
> that the artists sign with DI (because no one is willing to tell me, which
is
> fair), but it's very possible that there's a promotional clause. You
should
> double-check with an artist who signed one of the contracts.
And I have a similar clause in my contract, but again, this isn't
advertising
or promotion, he's SELLING these new discs. He's got them on FurBid,
and he'll have them at Confurence. No one gets these for free, from what
I understand, since they're labeled "$1 Sample CDs".
> If they didn't sign a contract and handed their art over to someone anyway
on
> the promise of future payment, without so much as a signature on an IOU...
they
> have little recourse.
Actually, they have a lot of recourse. If KD can't prove he has rights to
use
the copyrights, then he has to stop using them. Verbal contracts are only as
good as those who go into contract.
More than likely he covered his ass and had every sign a contract. Which
means that the artists have a good source to take him to court if he doesn't
want to pay them.
> You're blaming Darrel for something that Kevin does. Why? Again, if the
> artists sign bad contracts, it's their own fault.
I'm blaming Darrel for claiming that things aren't happening when they are,
and trying to deceive people when he refuses to acknowledge threads and
facts presented to him.
> Darrel is allowing someone to buy dealer space at Confurence. Darrel has
to
> worry that the dealer is not breaking any laws. If Kevin Duane is not
honoring
> his contracts, then he is breaking contracts, which might be enough reason
for
> him not to be welcome, but he is not technically breaking laws as such.
Even
> then, some proof that he's breaking contracts would help. I don't doubt
that
> you read on some mailing list that a few artists are worked up about
getting
> paid late, but frankly anyone can just say that.
Contract law is still law. It's civil, but still law. And like I stated, and
many others
have stated, artists are speaking up that they haven't gotten paid.
GO LOOK. I pointed out WHERE you can read these from ACTUAL ARTISTS.
> What would be the grounds for banning him from a convention? Late
payments? If
> you ban everyone who's made a late payment when they promised to pay
something
> on time... including credit card bills... utility bills... car loans...
loans
> between friends... why hold a convention at all? No one will be allowed
to show
> up.
When did I say that he should be banned from a convention in this thread? He
should
be banned from selling the CDs until he pays back artists, or at least,
halted from making
new CDs until the old CDs have paid off their debts. You're taking my
argument
well into areas I never stated, claiming I had.
Make the argument on what was said, not wild accusations like Darrel claims
we're
all creating.
> You can prove that Darrel's sole mission in life and in running Confurence
is to
> keep Kevin Duane happy? Please provide some evidence.
No, but he's keeping Kevin happy in order to keep Kevin coming to
Confurence. If
he's not trying to keep Kevin happy, why on earth is he ignoring facts
presented to
him, sources to authenticate the facts, as well as placating Kevin as a
"good businessman"
and bad things said about him are "only rumours"? Blatant application of
trying to
keep Kevin happy, for whatever reasons. I see it as keeping him happy to
keep
Kevin coming back.
Dragon Magic
> mailing list somewhere said something and that was reported by someone and
> posted on some newsgroup. Doesn't hold up in court, unfortunately.
If you have trouble reading, I can repeat.
Jeremy Mullins stated on the Yahoo! Group "ZigZagforever" that he has not
yet been paid by Kevin, but it was a recent venture and he's patient. Eric
Schwartz on the same group stated that the reason why he won't work with
Kevin Duane anymore is because Kevin took way too long to get him his
money. Again, if the evidence is presented to you, or Darrel, stop ignoring
it and GO LOOK.
If you can't figure out how to use Yahoo! Groups, I am sure someone can
show you.
> If there's evidence, provide some.
Did. Many times. Because you don't want to read, doens't mean I have yet
to present any.
> And what is grounds for barring people from attenting conventions? As I
said in
> my other post, is it disliking the rapidity of their payments on accounts
> payable?
Again, show me where I said he should be banned from the convention?
> He's operating as a business; get these people who haven't been paid to
complain
> to the Better Business Bureau; if they're true, they'll remove his
business
> license.
Unfortunately, no BBB in Canada that I'm aware. And the BBB cannot remove
business licenses. Don't know where you got this information. BBB is only a
medium between two entities, and tries to resolve issues. That's it, that's
all
the power they have.
> A simple, "I need to reach Kevin Duane, does someone have his/her current
> information?" Both parties are usually capable of communication. If
they're
> owed money and *want* to collect, there are *many* avenues available to
them,
> from bitching on a newsgroup to Judge Judy.
They do try to reach Kevin, but he ignores emails, or tries to avoid them at
shows. Artists have said this often enough. But Kevin claims the reason he
can't pay them is because their information is changed and won't contact
him.
Why should the artists continue to have to ask for money from projects
years ago? Most of their information has never changed, but Kevin hasn't
paid them. Why?
> Yes, but you're asking Darrel to toss him out of a convention based on
rumor.
> Do you know how many rumors are spread in furry fandom daily? No
convention
> could last if they tossed out anyone who had ever had a rumor spread about
them
> on alt.fan.furry.
Show me where I said this, please? Not only do you ignore what I say, but
then
you make up stuff I never said. You're not very good at this argument thing,
are you?
Blackberry
>
>Well, unless Kevin owns a snackfood and soda company, he's got to pick
>up those items somehow. More than likely he's paying for it, rather than
>stealing it. So yes, it is money, even indirect, that could go to artists
>instead.
Fair.
>> Maybe you should ask *him*. Seems to me you'd get a much better answer.
>
>If artists have a hard time getting money from him, what would cause him
>to answer my question of "why" or "where's it all going" if I asked him?
Well, what reason does he have to lie to a stranger (and potential customer)
about it?
>> I ran an independent music label for a while. In that business, it's
>quite
>> common to include a clause in a contract that allows the company to use
>sample
>> full works (images, in this particular case) and to use sampled bits of
>images
>> in advertising and promotional materials. I don't know what kinds of
>contracts
>> that the artists sign with DI (because no one is willing to tell me, which
>is
>> fair), but it's very possible that there's a promotional clause. You
>should
>> double-check with an artist who signed one of the contracts.
>
>And I have a similar clause in my contract, but again, this isn't
>advertising
>or promotion, he's SELLING these new discs. He's got them on FurBid,
>and he'll have them at Confurence. No one gets these for free, from what
>I understand, since they're labeled "$1 Sample CDs".
If they're $1 sample CDs, then they're perfectly reasonable promotional
materials. Same as a web catalog or anything else.
>> If they didn't sign a contract and handed their art over to someone anyway
>on
>> the promise of future payment, without so much as a signature on an IOU...
>they
>> have little recourse.
>
>Actually, they have a lot of recourse. If KD can't prove he has rights to
>use
>the copyrights, then he has to stop using them. Verbal contracts are only as
>good as those who go into contract.
>
>More than likely he covered his ass and had every sign a contract. Which
>means that the artists have a good source to take him to court if he doesn't
>want to pay them.
Sure, if he broke the contract. Has anyone said that he has? Again, if they
agreed to a *bad* contract, it's their fault.
>> You're blaming Darrel for something that Kevin does. Why? Again, if the
>> artists sign bad contracts, it's their own fault.
>
>I'm blaming Darrel for claiming that things aren't happening when they are,
>and trying to deceive people when he refuses to acknowledge threads and
>facts presented to him.
So far, all he's said is that he has no proof that Kevin Duane has done enough
to be banned from Confurence. What do you think he's done that's grounds for
being banned, besides ill will?
>Contract law is still law. It's civil, but still law. And like I stated, and
>many others
>have stated, artists are speaking up that they haven't gotten paid.
>
>GO LOOK. I pointed out WHERE you can read these from ACTUAL ARTISTS.
You mentioned that two artists on a Zigzag mailing list had complained; one got
paid "late" (though you didn't say if it was in violation of the contract) and
one made a deal recently and hadn't been paid yet. What other evidence was
there?
>When did I say that he should be banned from a convention in this thread? He
>should
>be banned from selling the CDs until he pays back artists, or at least,
>halted from making
>new CDs until the old CDs have paid off their debts. You're taking my
>argument
>well into areas I never stated, claiming I had.
I'm clarifying what you said. Thanks for clarifying it. I don't know what the
Confurence policies are on when someone can be refused a dealer's table. I
imagine that "bad business practices" could be grounds, but I still haven't seen
any factual claims, only rumors. I've had one dealing with an artist with Kevin
Duane as intermediary, and it went off without a hitch. He even followed up
with me on the transaction at Confurence to make sure I received my artwork.
>Make the argument on what was said, not wild accusations like Darrel claims
>we're
>all creating.
Oooh, a zinger.
>> You can prove that Darrel's sole mission in life and in running Confurence
>is to
>> keep Kevin Duane happy? Please provide some evidence.
>
>No, but he's keeping Kevin happy in order to keep Kevin coming to
>Confurence. If
>he's not trying to keep Kevin happy, why on earth is he ignoring facts
>presented to
>him, sources to authenticate the facts, as well as placating Kevin as a
>"good businessman"
>and bad things said about him are "only rumours"? Blatant application of
>trying to
>keep Kevin happy, for whatever reasons. I see it as keeping him happy to
>keep
>Kevin coming back.
So far, all I've heard is that maybe Kevin is keeping *Darrel* happy by bringing
him food. I haven't heard anything the other way. What do you say is the
evidence of that? Again, if you think Darrel is expressing favoritism, then
complain to the Better Business Bureau about The Confurence Group's insider
dealings, and provide them with your evidence. If there's actual wrongdoing,
they'll be shut down.
Blackberry
>
>> Again, what evidence have they substantiated? So far, some people on some
>> mailing list somewhere said something and that was reported by someone and
>> posted on some newsgroup. Doesn't hold up in court, unfortunately.
>
>If you have trouble reading, I can repeat.
>
>Jeremy Mullins stated on the Yahoo! Group "ZigZagforever" that he has not
>yet been paid by Kevin, but it was a recent venture and he's patient. Eric
>Schwartz on the same group stated that the reason why he won't work with
>Kevin Duane anymore is because Kevin took way too long to get him his
>money. Again, if the evidence is presented to you, or Darrel, stop ignoring
>it and GO LOOK.
You summarized it just fine. So, that's one artist who was paid and one whose
payment might be late. What's the payment clause in their contract? Were
either of them violated? If not, what did Mr. Duane do wrong?
>If you can't figure out how to use Yahoo! Groups, I am sure someone can
>show you.
Ooh, another zinger. Persisting in ad hominem attacks only means that you think
your own debating position is too weak to be rationally argued on its own and
you have to try to distract people. I don't get into flame wars.
>> If there's evidence, provide some.
>
>Did. Many times. Because you don't want to read, doens't mean I have yet
>to present any.
I have read it. I see no evidence as of yet that Mr. Duane violated contracts,
only that he paid one artist late and hasn't paid another yet.
>> And what is grounds for barring people from attenting conventions? As I
>said in
>> my other post, is it disliking the rapidity of their payments on accounts
>> payable?
>
>Again, show me where I said he should be banned from the convention?
Barred from the dealer area, then.
>> He's operating as a business; get these people who haven't been paid to
>complain
>> to the Better Business Bureau; if they're true, they'll remove his
>business
>> license.
>
>Unfortunately, no BBB in Canada that I'm aware.
And I know this why?
>And the BBB cannot remove
>business licenses. Don't know where you got this information. BBB is only a
>medium between two entities, and tries to resolve issues. That's it, that's
>all
>the power they have.
No, they can't directly remove a business license, but they can cause a business
to be shut down through litigation and other means. Sorry, I thought I wrote
"shut down" but I guess that was in another message.
>> A simple, "I need to reach Kevin Duane, does someone have his/her current
>> information?" Both parties are usually capable of communication. If
>they're
>> owed money and *want* to collect, there are *many* avenues available to
>them,
>> from bitching on a newsgroup to Judge Judy.
>
>They do try to reach Kevin, but he ignores emails, or tries to avoid them at
>shows. Artists have said this often enough. But Kevin claims the reason he
>can't pay them is because their information is changed and won't contact
>him.
Lawsuits work in Canada, I know that. Judge Judy even ruled against some people
from New Brunswick and they had to pay, so there are many legal options. Heck,
you even get paid for being on Judge Judy, if you don't lose too badly.
>Why should the artists continue to have to ask for money from projects
>years ago? Most of their information has never changed, but Kevin hasn't
>paid them. Why?
They should ask for money if they want money. Sure, DI should pay them
according to the agreements in their contracts; has he definitely broken those
agreements? I haven't heard from anyone willing to say that he has.
>> Yes, but you're asking Darrel to toss him out of a convention based on
>rumor.
>> Do you know how many rumors are spread in furry fandom daily? No
>convention
>> could last if they tossed out anyone who had ever had a rumor spread about
>them
>> on alt.fan.furry.
>
>Show me where I said this, please? Not only do you ignore what I say, but
>then
>you make up stuff I never said. You're not very good at this argument thing,
>are you?
Replace "convention" with "dealer's room" and respond to the point, please. I
know you have a brain; if you want to use it all up being obstinate, that's your
own business. You know what I meant and could have responded to it if you had
an inkling. You'd rather sling insults, though. I can take it, however, so
fire away with everything you've got, but be prepared with factual documentation
to back up every insult.
Blackberry
- A lost page on furdom.com that was cached and said this:
Withdrawan artistic rights by Jarad 12 March, 2001 1 comment(s)
Cobalt (aka Chris Sutor) has with drawn reproduction rights from Digital
Impudendum and Kevin Duane.
(no other information available -- has Chris Sutor's work been used on a DI
product since then?)
- A comment on VCL that Max Blackrabbit had sold some artwork for use on one of
DI's discs (has Max said on his own mailing list whether he got paid according
to contract or not?)
- Dealer's den listings at ConiFur, ConFurence, Gaylaxicon
- A page by Terrybear that says he's bankrolling DI because they do good things
for the fandom (obviously only one person's opinion)
- A rant by mhirtes on the MTV special
- A defense of Mr. Duane by "Ostrich"
(http://groups.google.com/groups?q=kevin+duane&hl=en&selm=3A0080B4.7348%40raex.com&rnum=2)
- A posting by Boyce Garald Kline Jr. of Kevin Duane's email and snail mail
addresses after someone asked how to contact him (vintage
1998)(http://groups.google.com/groups?q=kevin+duane&hl=en&selm=6f7a5n%24db0%241%40as1000.javanet.com&rnum=3)
- A message from Terry Whittier resolving some confusion about Kevin Duane
paying for someone's air fare
(http://groups.google.com/groups?q=kevin+duane&hl=en&selm=9ca034%24h4f%241%40velox.critter.net&rnum=4)
- Another rant by mhirtes
- A post from Darrel Exline on the Chris Sutor v. Digital Impudendum matter
which says, in part:
If you had a contract with Kevin Duane, and he allegedly renegged on it,
then you should have dealt with that in the court system. By taking the
issue public, you have created the opportunity for Kevin Duane to file
suit against you, on several points.
(http://groups.google.com/groups?q=kevin+duane&hl=en&selm=3AAD4A51.FC4F97F2%40ajlvideo.com&rnum=7)
I actually have a job and other things to do in my life, so I'm sorry I can't
fulfill your every wish, but I will probably check Google groups some more
another day. This is all I could find so far. Not exactly the mountains of
evidence that you claim exists for anyone willing to search for it.
Can you tell me the search engine and criteria that you used to find it?
Dragon Magic
> materials. Same as a web catalog or anything else.
Except that web catalogs are free, and usually when you have adveritising
goods or promotional items, you give them away. Stores don't pay for
POPs or displays most of the time, and if they do, it's usually something
extra that isn't needed.
In this, though, Duane hasn't asked all the artists, if any at all, if
they'd
like to be reprinted on this new CD. What's wrong with just giving a
list of what all they have available and which artists appear on each disc,
with a form to mail in payments?
To me, it looks like another venture for money. Else, why not just give
them away to a paying customer, or just flat giving them away?
> Sure, if he broke the contract. Has anyone said that he has? Again, if
they
> agreed to a *bad* contract, it's their fault.
YES, THEY HAVE. Have you ignored conversations here?
> So far, all he's said is that he has no proof that Kevin Duane has done
enough
> to be banned from Confurence. What do you think he's done that's grounds
for
> being banned, besides ill will?
No, he's said that these "rumors" are doing harm to Kevin's business, and
that Kevin's a good businessman. Do you even bother to read these threads?
I NEVER STATED THAT KEVIN SHOULD BE BANNED FROM THE
CONVENTIONS. PLEASE READ.
Hope that made it more visible for you to understand?
> You mentioned that two artists on a Zigzag mailing list had complained;
one got
> paid "late" (though you didn't say if it was in violation of the contract)
and
> one made a deal recently and hadn't been paid yet. What other evidence
was
> there?
Tons, if you bother to look. Unfortunately, you and Darrel have ignored
these
statements until you've acknowledged them just now. But still, Eric won't
deal with him because of the bad blood. If the contract stated that Eric
would
have been paid late, then why the bad blood?
> I'm clarifying what you said. Thanks for clarifying it. I don't know
what the
> Confurence policies are on when someone can be refused a dealer's table.
I
> imagine that "bad business practices" could be grounds, but I still
haven't seen
> any factual claims, only rumors. I've had one dealing with an artist with
Kevin
> Duane as intermediary, and it went off without a hitch. He even followed
up
> with me on the transaction at Confurence to make sure I received my
artwork.
GO LOOK.
Just like Darrel, people are pointing out where you can actually see the
artists
post their displeasure or problems, and still it's "RUMORS"? What's it going
to
take, a class-action lawsuit and jail time for Duane before it's possible
they
aren't rumors?
> So far, all I've heard is that maybe Kevin is keeping *Darrel* happy by
bringing
> him food. I haven't heard anything the other way. What do you say is the
> evidence of that? Again, if you think Darrel is expressing favoritism,
then
> complain to the Better Business Bureau about The Confurence Group's
insider
> dealings, and provide them with your evidence. If there's actual
wrongdoing,
> they'll be shut down.
No, Darrel's admitted that what Kevin does is good for the con. Why else
would
Darrel be like you, and ignore facts and where he can research these facts,
and
YEARS of artists "passing rumors"?
And again, stop saying I'm stating things I'm not. I am not after
Confurence, but
I do question the motives of Confurence defending Kevin here. You're making
this out to be more than it is. And you also believe that the BBB has all
these
wide powers that they don't.
Do some research before you try to argue, makes you look less like an idiot.
Dragon Magic
whose
> payment might be late. What's the payment clause in their contract? Were
> either of them violated? If not, what did Mr. Duane do wrong?
If it weren't violated, again, why the bad blood? Why are other artists
still
complaining? Duane does wrong, just because you choose to ignore this
doesn't mean suddenly he doesn't.
> Ooh, another zinger. Persisting in ad hominem attacks only means that you
think
> your own debating position is too weak to be rationally argued on its own
and
> you have to try to distract people. I don't get into flame wars.
Or I think that you're ignoring where these posts are and stating that I
haven't
brought proof of artists complaints made me think you were too incompetent
to go use Yahoo! Groups.
If you argue stuff not brought into the debate, make stuff up about the
person
debating you, and then ignore what they've stated and rebuke that they
haven't
brought forth what you ignored, then yes, you deserve to be "zinged".
> I have read it. I see no evidence as of yet that Mr. Duane violated
contracts,
> only that he paid one artist late and hasn't paid another yet.
Ah. And the reason why Eric won't deal with Duane again is...?
And the reason why Jeremy hasn't been paid is...?
What does it take?
> Barred from the dealer area, then.
Didn't say this either. Don't make things up.
> And I know this why?
Kevin's Canadian, from what I understand.
> No, they can't directly remove a business license, but they can cause a
business
> to be shut down through litigation and other means. Sorry, I thought I
wrote
> "shut down" but I guess that was in another message.
Since the BBB never sued PayPal, I don't think they'll go after an outfit
such as
Kevin Duane's, since it's not a business relationship that's gone bad, but
bad
contracts and refusing to pay on those contracts.
> Lawsuits work in Canada, I know that. Judge Judy even ruled against some
people
> from New Brunswick and they had to pay, so there are many legal options.
Heck,
> you even get paid for being on Judge Judy, if you don't lose too badly.
But both parties must waive their rights to the suit before appearing on
Judge Judy,
or any other television court show, and then they're bound by certain terms
there.
Plus the show has to want to take on the case in the first place.
> They should ask for money if they want money. Sure, DI should pay them
> according to the agreements in their contracts; has he definitely broken
those
> agreements? I haven't heard from anyone willing to say that he has.
Again, if Kevin's not doing anything wrong, why do artists have to have the
burden to get their money? Why do artists have to ask for the money
guaranteed them in the contracts? Give me a good reason.
"If they want it" is not a good reason for Kevin not to pay them if they
don't
hound him to death.
> Replace "convention" with "dealer's room" and respond to the point,
please. I
> know you have a brain; if you want to use it all up being obstinate,
that's your
> own business. You know what I meant and could have responded to it if you
had
> an inkling. You'd rather sling insults, though. I can take it, however,
so
> fire away with everything you've got, but be prepared with factual
documentation
> to back up every insult.
I never said he should be barred from the dealer's room. I've stated that he
shouldn't
be using money to support cons, or even do travel costs to get a table at a
show when
he's got distributors, according to his page. He should start saving the
money and
paying off the artists who still need paid.
NOT HARD.
Stop making up stuff I've said, and stop ignoring what is going on. If he's
a business,
and he's not paid up artists after all these years, and he's still taking a
loss, STOP
DEFENDING HIM. Time for him to get his ass kicked business-wise and pay up,
and change the way he does things.
I've presented facts, and you just ignore them. That is the sign of an
idiot, indeed,
especially when you reply asking me to provide facts on the message where
the
facts were provided.
NEXT!
mhirtes
Whoodah thunk?
Dragon Magic
this:
>
> - A lost page on furdom.com that was cached and said this:
> Withdrawan artistic rights by Jarad 12 March, 2001 1 comment(s)
> Cobalt (aka Chris Sutor) has with drawn reproduction rights from Digital
> Impudendum and Kevin Duane.
> (no other information available -- has Chris Sutor's work been used on a
DI
> product since then?)
In fact, so you can ask Chris Sutor yourself,
http://www.furnation.com/cobalt/
And if you want to know whether his work is still in use on the CDs?
Check it out:
http://www.digital-imp.com/products/general/am1.html
http://www.digital-imp.com/products/lifestyles/furbidden.html
And since the new sample disc includes an image of every image
used on all the DI discs, yep, his image is still being used.
> - A page by Terrybear that says he's bankrolling DI because they do good
things
> for the fandom (obviously only one person's opinion)
And Terrybear claims that the artists he's talked to have had no problem,
but hasn't come clean whether he's talked to every artist on the CDs, or
whether he's checked the books to make sure they've all been paid.
As well, he's selling the CDs on FurBid, so yes, he's got a lot of good
things to say, since he wants a return on his investment.
> - A defense of Mr. Duane by "Ostrich"
>
(http://groups.google.com/groups?q=kevin+duane&hl=en&selm=3A0080B4.7348%40ra
ex.com&rnum=2)
The same Ostrich who did the Vanity Fair interview.
Good cover!
> - A message from Terry Whittier resolving some confusion about Kevin Duane
> paying for someone's air fare
>
(http://groups.google.com/groups?q=kevin+duane&hl=en&selm=9ca034%24h4f%241%4
0velox.critter.net&rnum=4)
And it states:
As we speak...
I should point out, there may have been a different understanding in the
past. Fernando may have been thinking of using the money to come to the U.S.
for a furry con, and may have been hoping to make enough through Kevin Duane
that Kevin would be purchasing his plane ticket.
That may now be in negotiation on other fronts, so the money in question is
now being designated for other purchases. The issue should be completed very
soon.
But it doesn't state whether it's been resolved, or whether Fernando's
been paid. Seems to me that the complaint that Kevin's not paying artists
when they expect is still apparent.
> - A post from Darrel Exline on the Chris Sutor v. Digital Impudendum
matter
> which says, in part:
> If you had a contract with Kevin Duane, and he allegedly renegged on it,
> then you should have dealt with that in the court system. By taking the
> issue public, you have created the opportunity for Kevin Duane to file
> suit against you, on several points.
>
(http://groups.google.com/groups?q=kevin+duane&hl=en&selm=3AAD4A51.FC4F97F2%
40ajlvideo.com&rnum=7)
Isn't Darrel also the person who claims he's NEVER heard an artist
complain about Kevin? This post proves he's hearing complaints.
Plus Darrel is not a lawyer, so his legal advice isn't to be followed as
the letter of the law. He's incorrect on many accounts, as well.
First, people can file suit regardless. The merits aren't factored for the
filing, rather, the case itself. Second, if Kevin renegs on the contracts,
and you get the CDs destroyed via the courts, he cannot regain his
losses from those destroyed CDs because you had the courts do it.
It would take a seriously biased judge to rule in this manner.
Also, how many artists are going to be able to afford the legal help
to file suit against Kevin? I suggest instead they walk into their local
small-claims-courthouse, file suit there, pay the fee, and wait for
the court date. Kevin's probably not going to fly around the country
to pay these fees, and you can hit him up.
This would be the best solution to any and all artists waiting for
payment. Make sure you have your contract.
> I actually have a job and other things to do in my life, so I'm sorry I
can't
> fulfill your every wish, but I will probably check Google groups some more
> another day. This is all I could find so far. Not exactly the mountains
of
> evidence that you claim exists for anyone willing to search for it.
Well, if you're going to debate and claim that I'm not providing anything
when I have, then yes, you should satisfy my wishes to do research before
you argue.
It's just that simple... Don't debate if you really don't know the side
on which you debate.
Brian Graeme
news:AOrx8.14538$Ez5.4...@typhoon.neo.rr.com...
> And if you want to know whether his work is still in use on the CDs?
> Check it out:
> http://www.digital-imp.com/products/general/am1.html
> http://www.digital-imp.com/products/lifestyles/furbidden.html
Ummm, both CDs have ALREADY been produced, LONG before Sutor yanked
publication rights... Are you proposing that years old merchandise be
destroyed at a massive loss? Also, take the Winnie the Pooh case... Milne's
estate is attempting to sue Disney for the rights that they already handed
away... While the debate rages on in the courts and press, has this stopped
Disney from producing WTP related animation (well, they haven't made any
cartoons for years) or merchandise (Hunny B's anyone?)? Withdrawel of
publishing rights in regards to copyright only affect *future* publication,
not past, whereas in this case, Duane had FULL permission...
ilr
"Dragon Magic" <cb...@dragonmagic.net> wrote in message news:U8rx8.14147$Ez5.4...@typhoon.neo.rr.com...
> > Ooh, another zinger. Persisting in ad hominem attacks only means that you
> think
> > your own debating position is too weak to be rationally argued on its own
> and
> > you have to try to distract people. I don't get into flame wars.
>
> Or I think that you're ignoring where these posts are and stating that I
> haven't
> brought proof of artists complaints made me think you were too incompetent
> to go use Yahoo! Groups.
>
> If you argue stuff not brought into the debate, make stuff up about the
> person
> debating you, and then ignore what they've stated and rebuke that they
> haven't
> brought forth what you ignored, then yes, you deserve to be "zinged".
>
Sorry BB, but I'm going to have to side with DM here. you ALWAYS
and REPEATEDLY ask for proof or ask for this or that and you ALWAYS
intentfully slide in a "And since I don't see it, it can't possibly be that
way" and then the second the actual evidence is handed to ya, you ALWAYS
go off on a tangent about something else that's just slightly related all
the while flat out ignoring the information that you requested the first
time. AND IT'S BULLSHIT!! I'M MOTHER FUCKING SICK OF IT!
You're just a pedantic shittiing little zit whenever you do this. And DM
didn't go nearly far enough as It would seem there isn't any device on this
planet large enough to "zing" across your melon when you go into this mode.
As long as you're around, I'll probably never yell at Baloo ever again
for incredibly annoying little semantics games.
Just incase you wanna keep doing this and suddenly have some bizzarre
fucked up urge to ask me the same, then here, here's a list of people
who've been paid, and who hadn't. Don't worry though, I'm not expecting
you to honor my hard work by actually paying attention to it :P
Unpaid/ripped off Paid - Waiting time
----------------------------------------------------------------
Lisa Jennings(R/O) Michael Pena - Long time
Brian Harp(both) Schwartz - Moderate/Long time
Daphne Lage(R/O) O'Connell - Who cares?, he does the same
Fernando(>$500 owed) Rachel Cawley - Had to confront in person
'Den' Taral Wayne - though Thoroughly Ripped off
[1]Darkmatter(R/O) Jim Groat - But only in lousy CD's
[2]Don Sanders(customer only) Robert Guthrie -Half cash, long wait on barter
Kjartan A.(both)
Todd(Scout)Sutherland(R/O) - AND, it was stolen goods Bartered.
Pelzig{on 'Stripe Tease'}
And no doubt the list goes on
...and on...
...and on..
[1]: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&selm=20020216010401.06176.00000370%40mb-cq.aol.com
[2]:http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl4133304620d&dq=&hl=en&selm=5sfemq%24gvc%241%40velar.isc-br.com
mhirtes
LAST year's ConFurence.
Speaks for itself.
mhirtes
ilr wrote:
>
>
> Unpaid/ripped off Paid - Waiting time
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> Lisa Jennings(R/O) Michael Pena - Long time
> Brian Harp(both) Schwartz - Moderate/Long time
> Daphne Lage(R/O) O'Connell - Who cares?, he does the same
> Fernando(>$500 owed) Rachel Cawley - Had to confront in person
> 'Den' Taral Wayne - though Thoroughly Ripped off
> [1]Darkmatter(R/O) Jim Groat - But only in lousy CD's
> [2]Don Sanders(customer only) Robert Guthrie -Half cash, long wait on barter
> Kjartan A.(both)
> Todd(Scout)Sutherland(R/O) - AND, it was stolen goods Bartered.
> Pelzig{on 'Stripe Tease'}
> And no doubt the list goes on
> ...and on...
> ...and on..
>
> [1]: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&selm=20020216010401.06176.00000370%40mb-cq.aol.com
> [2]:http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl4133304620d&dq=&hl=en&selm=5sfemq%24gvc%241%40velar.isc-br.com
Kevin had also spent THREE HOURS at the 1AB Comix booth at SDCC trying
to get Shawn Keller to sign up with him. Three uninterrupted hours of
nonstop buttering-up and telling Shawn how anti-furry art has a future,
how far he can can go with his stuff if he'd just sign on the dotted
line with him and let him be his Glen Wooten, yattayattayatta, as if
Kevin actually thought he'd be a bigger benefactor than Shawn's current
employer, The Walt Disney Co..
Fortunately, Shawn knows what kinda guy Kevin is.
David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)
[...]
>> Rnatings and heresay about what has happened at other cons, or to
>> artists who dont feel they've been wronged so blatantly to be able to
>> come forward themselves, DOES NOT deserve repeating here. At that point
>> it is just heresay and rumor.
>
> Not heresay. I specifically said one artist friend of mine who was never
> paid, and yet you still replied that I never mentioned one.
That is heresay and not direct everdence. If your artist freand came
and said it then it would be direct everdence.
--
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia. See
http://dformosa.zeta.org.au/~dformosa/Spelling.html to find out more.
Free the Memes.
Dragon Magic
> publication rights... Are you proposing that years old merchandise be
> destroyed at a massive loss? Also, take the Winnie the Pooh case...
Milne's
> estate is attempting to sue Disney for the rights that they already handed
> away... While the debate rages on in the courts and press, has this
stopped
> Disney from producing WTP related animation (well, they haven't made any
> cartoons for years) or merchandise (Hunny B's anyone?)? Withdrawel of
> publishing rights in regards to copyright only affect *future*
publication,
> not past, whereas in this case, Duane had FULL permission...
And they're still being produced, PLUS they're now on the new Sample
CD, Brian. Read what I said.
Dragon Magic
> LAST year's ConFurence.
>
> Speaks for itself.
No it doesn't, because KD defenders will consider it heresay,
and will never contact the artists mentioned and ask them
themselves.
Because if they would, they'd discover their illusions are false.
Dragon Magic
He's on the Cat Scratches and I believe the Hoof CD.
LancerAdvancd iBuck
>materials. Same as a web catalog or anything else.
If you're demanding proof that thare's a payment clause that's been broken, I
think the burden's on you to show that there's a promotional clause that okay's
the sample disks. A good contract will have both, but you can't assume the
existnce of one or the other...
>Sure, if he broke the contract. Has anyone said that he has? Again, if
>they
>agreed to a *bad* contract, it's their fault.
If there's no clause specifing payment, then he can be hit -at will- to void
the contract for non-payment. No payment clause means that Duane has no legal
protection against a termination for nonpayment claim either, and that still
doesn't get him off the hook for payment for past use.
This isn't about breaking the contract, it's about not fufilling it...
And regardless of the legalities, the moral burden is on Duane to pay the
moment he accepts the art...
>So far, all he's said is that he has no proof that Kevin Duane has done
>enough
>to be banned from Confurence. What do you think he's done that's grounds
>for
>being banned, besides ill will?
Since DM has never asked that Duane be banned from confurence, why are you
asking for proof to back up that course of action...
What DM has suggested Duane stop releasing NEW Collections untill he's paid up,
using sales of his current collections to pay people of untill then, and that
he shape up his buisness model to something more sustainable. If Duane, keeps
running at a loss, then he'll crash out sooner or later and everyone will be
out fans and artists alike...
LancerAdvancd iBuck
>> paid, and yet you still replied that I never mentioned one.
>
>That is heresay and not direct everdence. If your artist freand came
>and said it then it would be direct everdence.
But Darrel's statement that these claims are hurting DI's buisness are no
better, the same with the claims that DI is struggling and can't afford to pay,
or that he's paid off the all but a few artists who haven't contacted him,
It's all heresay. DM at least has given the specific names that could be
independantly verfied by the party reading, and the locations where artists
have directly complained...
Darrel complains about the evidence being unststaniated, If Duane doesn't feel
that these claims are worth answering directly, then why is Darrel standing up?
Blackberry
>
>> If they're $1 sample CDs, then they're perfectly reasonable promotional
>> materials. Same as a web catalog or anything else.
>
>Except that web catalogs are free, and usually when you have adveritising
>goods or promotional items, you give them away. Stores don't pay for
>POPs or displays most of the time, and if they do, it's usually something
>extra that isn't needed.
>
>In this, though, Duane hasn't asked all the artists, if any at all, if
>they'd
>like to be reprinted on this new CD. What's wrong with just giving a
>list of what all they have available and which artists appear on each disc,
>with a form to mail in payments?
>
>To me, it looks like another venture for money. Else, why not just give
>them away to a paying customer, or just flat giving them away?
I believe that most companies are "allowed" a price for promotional CDs of up to
$3 to cover manufacturing costs and overheads. Having been in the CD
manufacturing and distribution business, I doubt he is making a profit on $1
CDs.
Why not give them away? Ask him.
>> Sure, if he broke the contract. Has anyone said that he has? Again, if
>they
>> agreed to a *bad* contract, it's their fault.
>
>YES, THEY HAVE. Have you ignored conversations here?
No, I haven't. Are you referring to your conversations? You didn't say in them
that he had broken contract, merely that he had paid late. Say "broken
contract" next time. That way you can tell if it's a broken contract or not,
because "broken contract" means "broken contract".
>> So far, all he's said is that he has no proof that Kevin Duane has done
>enough
>> to be banned from Confurence. What do you think he's done that's grounds
>for
>> being banned, besides ill will?
>
>No, he's said that these "rumors" are doing harm to Kevin's business, and
>that Kevin's a good businessman. Do you even bother to read these threads?
>
>I NEVER STATED THAT KEVIN SHOULD BE BANNED FROM THE
>CONVENTIONS. PLEASE READ.
>
>Hope that made it more visible for you to understand?
As I said in another post, substitute "banned" for "whatever it is that Dragon
Magic wants done to him" and then respond to the point.
>> You mentioned that two artists on a Zigzag mailing list had complained;
>one got
>> paid "late" (though you didn't say if it was in violation of the contract)
>and
>> one made a deal recently and hadn't been paid yet. What other evidence
>was
>> there?
>
>Tons, if you bother to look. Unfortunately, you and Darrel have ignored
>these
>statements until you've acknowledged them just now. But still, Eric won't
>deal with him because of the bad blood. If the contract stated that Eric
>would
>have been paid late, then why the bad blood?
That's an assumption. People can feel bad about being paid late even when it's
within their agreement.
>> I'm clarifying what you said. Thanks for clarifying it. I don't know
>what the
>> Confurence policies are on when someone can be refused a dealer's table.
>I
>> imagine that "bad business practices" could be grounds, but I still
>haven't seen
>> any factual claims, only rumors. I've had one dealing with an artist with
>Kevin
>> Duane as intermediary, and it went off without a hitch. He even followed
>up
>> with me on the transaction at Confurence to make sure I received my
>artwork.
>
>GO LOOK.
Where should I look? Is Google not the appropriate search engine? Do
Northernlight or Hotbot turn up more useful links?
>Just like Darrel, people are pointing out where you can actually see the
>artists
>post their displeasure or problems, and still it's "RUMORS"? What's it going
>to
>take, a class-action lawsuit and jail time for Duane before it's possible
>they
>aren't rumors?
So, I joined yet another YahooGroup just to please you. I read the thread back
to when you started it. I note:
- One artist who was paid (late)
- One artist who hasn't been paid (the recent one)
- One person who reports that a third party hasn't been paid (hearsay)
- Third-party reports of an artist that has been paid
- One person who reports that at least three other artists have been paid
(hearsay)
Including hearsay, we have 5 artists paid (one late), 2 artists unpaid. This is
using the evidence that you claim proves beyond a shadow of a doubt (the
Zigzagforever YahooGroup).
>No, Darrel's admitted that what Kevin does is good for the con. Why else
>would
>Darrel be like you, and ignore facts and where he can research these facts,
>and
>YEARS of artists "passing rumors"?
Is Kevin Duane perhaps not the best businessman? Certainly; rumors would never
have been started if there weren't a grain of truth. Does he sell lots of furry
artwork? Unquestionably. Is that good for furry fandom? Depends on your
definitions of "good" and "furry fandom".
>And again, stop saying I'm stating things I'm not. I am not after
>Confurence, but
>I do question the motives of Confurence defending Kevin here. You're making
>this out to be more than it is. And you also believe that the BBB has all
>these
>wide powers that they don't.
>
>Do some research before you try to argue, makes you look less like an idiot.
Ooh, more ad hominem. Very effective and professional.
Blackberry
>
>> You summarized it just fine. So, that's one artist who was paid and one
>whose
>> payment might be late. What's the payment clause in their contract? Were
>> either of them violated? If not, what did Mr. Duane do wrong?
>
>If it weren't violated, again, why the bad blood? Why are other artists
>still
>complaining? Duane does wrong, just because you choose to ignore this
>doesn't mean suddenly he doesn't.
So, the only reason one would have to complain and spread rumor is a contract
violation? I don't think you've been around furry fandom for long if that's the
only way you think rumors get started. Some people have "bad blood" for
glancing at them the wrong way.
>> Ooh, another zinger. Persisting in ad hominem attacks only means that you
>think
>> your own debating position is too weak to be rationally argued on its own
>and
>> you have to try to distract people. I don't get into flame wars.
>
>Or I think that you're ignoring where these posts are and stating that I
>haven't
>brought proof of artists complaints made me think you were too incompetent
>to go use Yahoo! Groups.
See other message where I went through your YahooGroup evidence.
>If you argue stuff not brought into the debate, make stuff up about the
>person
>debating you, and then ignore what they've stated and rebuke that they
>haven't
>brought forth what you ignored, then yes, you deserve to be "zinged".
I won't comment, hoping that we can stick to the factual parts.
>> I have read it. I see no evidence as of yet that Mr. Duane violated
>contracts,
>> only that he paid one artist late and hasn't paid another yet.
>
>Ah. And the reason why Eric won't deal with Duane again is...?
>And the reason why Jeremy hasn't been paid is...?
Is what? What did Kevin Duane say was the reason?
>What does it take?
Perhaps some evidence of a violation of contract? I posted the question on the
Zigzagforever YahooGroup.
>> Barred from the dealer area, then.
>
>Didn't say this either. Don't make things up.
Again, as I post in every message (and you seemingly ignore), substitute
"banned" for "whatever Dragon Magic would like done to him" and respond to the
point.
You don't want him banned from the convention. You don't want him to not be
sold dealer space. What do you want? If you're perfectly fine with letting him
sell whatever he wants at the con, what's your problem with him selling whatever
he wants at the con?
>> And I know this why?
>
>Kevin's Canadian, from what I understand.
I'm afraid I'm still not an expert on Canadian law, no matter how many people
are Canadian. I can only go by what's around me for reference.
>> No, they can't directly remove a business license, but they can cause a
>business
>> to be shut down through litigation and other means. Sorry, I thought I
>wrote
>> "shut down" but I guess that was in another message.
>
>Since the BBB never sued PayPal, I don't think they'll go after an outfit
>such as
>Kevin Duane's, since it's not a business relationship that's gone bad, but
>bad
>contracts and refusing to pay on those contracts.
>
>> Lawsuits work in Canada, I know that. Judge Judy even ruled against some
>people
>> from New Brunswick and they had to pay, so there are many legal options.
>Heck,
>> you even get paid for being on Judge Judy, if you don't lose too badly.
>
>But both parties must waive their rights to the suit before appearing on
>Judge Judy,
>or any other television court show, and then they're bound by certain terms
>there.
>Plus the show has to want to take on the case in the first place.
True but they put just about any idiots on TV. If Judy doesn't want them, Judge
Joe Brown, Judge Mathis, Judge Mills Lane, Texas Justice, or People's Court
probably will.
>> They should ask for money if they want money. Sure, DI should pay them
>> according to the agreements in their contracts; has he definitely broken
>those
>> agreements? I haven't heard from anyone willing to say that he has.
>
>Again, if Kevin's not doing anything wrong, why do artists have to have the
>burden to get their money? Why do artists have to ask for the money
>guaranteed them in the contracts? Give me a good reason.
I am not Kevin Duane. I don't know his reasons. Perhaps you should ask him.
If he refuses to respond, then you have even more reason not to give him your
business.
>"If they want it" is not a good reason for Kevin not to pay them if they
>don't
>hound him to death.
Would I pay within stated contract deadlines? Sure. Does he? He apparently
pays artists within enough time that they won't file suit.
>> Replace "convention" with "dealer's room" and respond to the point,
>please. I
>> know you have a brain; if you want to use it all up being obstinate,
>that's your
>> own business. You know what I meant and could have responded to it if you
>had
>> an inkling. You'd rather sling insults, though. I can take it, however,
>so
>> fire away with everything you've got, but be prepared with factual
>documentation
>> to back up every insult.
>
>I never said he should be barred from the dealer's room. I've stated that he
>shouldn't
>be using money to support cons, or even do travel costs to get a table at a
>show when
>he's got distributors, according to his page. He should start saving the
>money and
>paying off the artists who still need paid.
Well, I said before that it was a fair statement. Now I'm not so sure. If DI
is a sole-ownership corporation, then he couldn't just throw personal pocket
change into its coffers: there has to be specific accounting done. So, you may
be mistaken that he can just take his spare soda and snack money and fund the
business with it. It really depends on how the business was registered.
>[...]
>I've presented facts, and you just ignore them. That is the sign of an
>idiot, indeed,
>especially when you reply asking me to provide facts on the message where
>the
>facts were provided.
You just never let up with ad hominem attacks, do you? Do you really think that
your position is so indifensible that you can't argue it on its own merit?
Here's your original quote:
- - - - -
Not heresay. I specifically said one artist friend of mine who was never
paid, and yet you still replied that I never mentioned one. Jeremy Mullins
on the Yahoo! Group "ZigZagforever" stated that he's not been paid, but
it was a recent venture and he's patient. Eric Schwartz there also said that
the reason why he no longer deals with Kevin Duane is because he took
too long to get Eric his money.
- - - - -
Where in there does it say "Digital Impudendum violated contracts"? Point it
out. Was Jeremy Mullins' contract violated? Was Eric Schwartz's contract
violated? You claim that all the evidence of contract violation is in this one
paragraph -- start by pointing out which line it's in and see if I can get it
then.
Blackberry
>
>Sorry BB, but I'm going to have to side with DM here. you ALWAYS
>and REPEATEDLY ask for proof or ask for this or that and you ALWAYS
>intentfully slide in a "And since I don't see it, it can't possibly be that
>way" and then the second the actual evidence is handed to ya, you ALWAYS
>go off on a tangent about something else that's just slightly related all
>the while flat out ignoring the information that you requested the first
>time. AND IT'S BULLSHIT!! I'M MOTHER FUCKING SICK OF IT!
Show me where Dragon Magic's original post -- saying that Jeremy Mullins hadn't
been paid yet and Eric Schwartz had been paid late -- said where the contract
violations had occurred.
You're berating me for asking for as-yet-unprovided evidence, when Dragon Magic
himself keeps claiming to have provided the evidence and it's nowhere to be
found. It may be my news server, however, so a Google link to the post would be
fine.
>You're just a pedantic shittiing little zit whenever you do this. And DM
>didn't go nearly far enough as It would seem there isn't any device on this
>planet large enough to "zing" across your melon when you go into this mode.
>As long as you're around, I'll probably never yell at Baloo ever again
>for incredibly annoying little semantics games.
All I want to see is someone saying "Yes, DI violated my contract, here's the
relevant part that was violated". Apparently, no one is willing to do so. If
it happens all the time, why is no one willing to admit that their contract was
broken?
>Just incase you wanna keep doing this and suddenly have some bizzarre
>fucked up urge to ask me the same, then here, here's a list of people
>who've been paid, and who hadn't. Don't worry though, I'm not expecting
>you to honor my hard work by actually paying attention to it :P
>
>Unpaid/ripped off Paid - Waiting time
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>Lisa Jennings(R/O) Michael Pena - Long time
>Brian Harp(both) Schwartz - Moderate/Long time
>Daphne Lage(R/O) O'Connell - Who cares?, he does the same
>Fernando(>$500 owed) Rachel Cawley - Had to confront in person
>'Den' Taral Wayne - though Thoroughly
>Ripped off
>[1]Darkmatter(R/O) Jim Groat - But only in lousy CD's
>[2]Don Sanders(customer only) Robert Guthrie -Half cash, long wait on barter
>Kjartan A.(both)
>Todd(Scout)Sutherland(R/O) - AND, it was stolen goods Bartered.
>Pelzig{on 'Stripe Tease'}
>And no doubt the list goes on
>...and on...
>...and on..
>
>[1]:
>http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&selm=20020216010401.06176.00000370%40mb-cq.aol.com
>[2]:http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl4133304620d&dq=&hl=en&selm=5sfemq%24gvc%241%40velar.isc-br.com
All right, so another artist hasn't been paid, and someone purchased a disc and
forgot to pick it up from the table. Anyone who signs a contract for which
there is no legal recourse if they don't get paid is pretty much *asking* not to
get paid.
Still, neither of these said that their contract had been specifically violated,
did they? If they did, please excuse me and point me back to it.
Blackberry
>
>And they're still being produced, PLUS they're now on the new Sample
>CD, Brian. Read what I said.
And I agree with you on that: it's bad business. It still may not be against
the contract, however.
LancerAdvancd iBuck
>Dragon
>Magic wants done to him" and then respond to the point.
Publically criticized untill he shapes up his buisness practices? Makes a
statement on the matter himself? I think there's more than enough for that,
using his picture for a dartboard, plenty for that too.... Keelhauling, that
I'd have some problems with...
You were complaigning about a very specific remedy, that Dragonmagic never
advocated. "Anything" covers a LOT of ground.. The only remedy DM has
suggested is really one on Duane's part, not asking anyone else to strongarm
him...
Blackberry
I emailed an artist with some questions. I'll let you know.
LancerAdvancd iBuck
And came up with the evidence in question, that artists havent been paid...
People heree have never claimed that he hasn't paid all of the artists, just
that he hasn't paid -some- of them. you can make your own call about what
non-payment rate is acceptable. But unless it's spelled out otherwise, the
unaccepatbility of lateness is left to the person owed money...
M. Mitchell Marmel
Atara wrote:
> dire...@confurence.net (AJL) wrote in <3CC60ADA...@ajlvideo.com>:
>
> >I won't be following up
> >further unless someone makes a wild rumor I have to correct.
>
> Psst... I heard Darrel really likes lima beans!
With ketchup!
-MMM-
--
============================================================================
M. Mitchell Marmel \ Scattered, smothered, covered,
chunked,
Drexel University Dept. of Mat. Eng. \ whipped, beaten, chained and
pierced.
Fibrous Materials Research Center \ *THE BEST HASHBROWNS IN THE WORLD!*
http://fmrc.coe.drexel.edu \ marm...@drexel.edu
============================================================================
TaliVisions:
http://www.pages.drexel.edu/grad/marmelmm/Talivisions/index.html
ICQ # 58305217
Blackberry
>
>>If they're $1 sample CDs, then they're perfectly reasonable promotional
>>materials. Same as a web catalog or anything else.
>
>If you're demanding proof that thare's a payment clause that's been broken, I
>think the burden's on you to show that there's a promotional clause that okay's
>the sample disks. A good contract will have both, but you can't assume the
>existnce of one or the other...
Good point, but still, no artist has said that either one (being paid late or
producing sample CDs) violates contract, just that they don't like it.
>>Sure, if he broke the contract. Has anyone said that he has? Again, if
>>they
>>agreed to a *bad* contract, it's their fault.
>
>If there's no clause specifing payment, then he can be hit -at will- to void
>the contract for non-payment. No payment clause means that Duane has no legal
>protection against a termination for nonpayment claim either, and that still
>doesn't get him off the hook for payment for past use.
>
>This isn't about breaking the contract, it's about not fufilling it...
That's essentially the same thing. If the contract says "Company must pay
licensing fees to Artist within 90 days of the signing of this agreement", and
it's not fulfilled, then it's broken.
>Since DM has never asked that Duane be banned from confurence, why are you
>asking for proof to back up that course of action...
>
>What DM has suggested Duane stop releasing NEW Collections untill he's paid up,
>using sales of his current collections to pay people of untill then, and that
>he shape up his buisness model to something more sustainable. If Duane, keeps
>running at a loss, then he'll crash out sooner or later and everyone will be
>out fans and artists alike...
And how should Confurence enforce that DI sells no more new collections? This
started because DM blamed AJL for allowing DI to sell at Confurence and to bring
food to the con suite.
Pelzig
Kevin Dwayne paid me, IN FULL and in CASH, for my work on Stripe Tease, at
Conifur 2000.
Figured I point that out for any records being kept on who and who hasn't
received payment.
TCASF,
Pelzig
http://www.frostelf.com/pelzig
In article <aa5lnl$o5e$1...@raccoon.fur.com>, "ilr"
Dragon Magic
up to
> $3 to cover manufacturing costs and overheads. Having been in the CD
> manufacturing and distribution business, I doubt he is making a profit on
$1
> CDs.
First off, where do you get this "allowed" a price for promo CDs up to $3?
This some magical union bylaw that no one else has ever heard of? And just
because he's not making a profit doesn't excuse the fact that he is indeed
SELLING them. They have coupons included to intice people into buying
other CDs which still nets him a profit.
Now you may say this is a good thing for artists because they'll eventually
be paid, but I still say, why didn't he ask permission to repost their art
on CDs he's selling?
> Why not give them away? Ask him.
Why? Why should I ask Duane when he couldn't ask the artists?
> No, I haven't. Are you referring to your conversations? You didn't say
in them
> that he had broken contract, merely that he had paid late. Say "broken
> contract" next time. That way you can tell if it's a broken contract or
not,
> because "broken contract" means "broken contract".
... OR NOT PAID.
Get a clue.
> As I said in another post, substitute "banned" for "whatever it is that
Dragon
> Magic wants done to him" and then respond to the point.
What I want done to him is he pay artists, he stop scamming them for new
projects when he owes other artists for previous ones, not to press CDs of
their art without their permission and for people to stop defending him that
any artist who makes claims is passing rumours.
How about you finally respond to those points properly?
> That's an assumption. People can feel bad about being paid late even when
it's
> within their agreement.
We're talking about Eric, here, who is hard to fully piss off. I mean, he's
mellow with the people of the SSS now that they're not using a website
and removed at least the Tabitha and Sabrina porn.
No bad blood there...
Make your own conclusions.
> >GO LOOK.
>
> Where should I look? Is Google not the appropriate search engine? Do
> Northernlight or Hotbot turn up more useful links?
I was finding more information even on the links you provided than you
seemed to have found. Try reading a bit more than just what the reference
line Google returns says.
> So, I joined yet another YahooGroup just to please you. I read the thread
back
> to when you started it. I note:
> - One artist who was paid (late)
> - One artist who hasn't been paid (the recent one)
> - One person who reports that a third party hasn't been paid (hearsay)
> - Third-party reports of an artist that has been paid
> - One person who reports that at least three other artists have been paid
> (hearsay)
It's not about pleasing me, it's about getting the facts you say aren't
there.
If you want facts, then it's your job to go get them. And as you can see,
there's a distinct pattern of first and third person accounts against Duane.
SO WHY ARE THEY RUMORS? I'm not understanding this?
> Including hearsay, we have 5 artists paid (one late), 2 artists unpaid.
This is
> using the evidence that you claim proves beyond a shadow of a doubt (the
> Zigzagforever YahooGroup).
That Duane doesn't pay some artists? What do you need?
> Is Kevin Duane perhaps not the best businessman? Certainly; rumors would
never
> have been started if there weren't a grain of truth. Does he sell lots of
furry
> artwork? Unquestionably. Is that good for furry fandom? Depends on your
> definitions of "good" and "furry fandom".
Unfortunately, saying this means that you're going against Darrel, who says
that
Kevin Duane is a GOOD businessman. But if you think about it, Rabbit Valley
and I sell a lot of furry artwork. But then again, we do pay our artists as
well.
Kevin cannot because his business plan hopes for endless sales and artists
to
wait. RB and my business plans don't.
> Ooh, more ad hominem. Very effective and professional.
Well, you've proven you're not a professional, and you reply without reading
what is presented to you. As well, you make up stuff said about the person
with whom you are debating. That is a very clear indication of an idiot.
Now,
if you want me to be professional about this, try some of it yourself, then
we can have a more thorough debate. Until then, the identity sticks.
LancerAdvancd iBuck
>there is no legal recourse if they don't get paid is pretty much *asking*
>not to
>get paid.
Um.. the legal recourse is the termination of the contract for non-payment.
That's a defualt in -any- contract, Unless of course the contract somehow
specifies that the artist will not take Duane to court, and your arn't even
claiming that.
The only real question that over weather the contract is broken or not is
weather Duane has the rights to use the work on payment, or on delivery of the
work.
The fact that the contract doesn't specify a time frame to be paid within,
doesn't get Duane off the hook for non payment. A payment clause is generally a
defense for the debtor, saying that the contract may not be terminated untill X
amount of time has gone by with nonpayment. If Duane didn't put a clause like
that in, -Duane- is the one in the hotseat, not the artist. The artist would
be fully within his rights to pull the contract a nanosecond after the disks
come off the press .
LancerAdvancd iBuck
>licensing fees to Artist within 90 days of the signing of this agreement",
>and
>it's not fulfilled, then it's broken.
And if it doesn't specify a time frame then it's unfufilled from the time the
artist's obligations are met, the kind of thing you're talking about would
have to be sustained by a contract clause stating that indefinite non-payment
is not a cause to break the contract.
>And how should Confurence enforce that DI sells no more new collections?
> This
>started because DM blamed AJL for allowing DI to sell at Confurence and
>to bring
>food to the con suite.
Um... actually he didn't... ilr brought up Duane not being banned, DM didn't
involve Confurence in his initial discussion except to say that the disks were
going to be available there, he didn't ask confurence to specifically do
annything, AJL assumed that. AJL was also the one who brought the whole
ConSuite thing into play, citing it as evidence that Duane's not out to hurt
people..
Blackberry
>
>>As I said in another post, substitute "banned" for "whatever it is that
>>Dragon
>>Magic wants done to him" and then respond to the point.
>
>Publically criticized untill he shapes up his buisness practices? Makes a
>statement on the matter himself? I think there's more than enough for that,
>using his picture for a dartboard, plenty for that too.... Keelhauling, that
>I'd have some problems with...
>
>You were complaigning about a very specific remedy, that Dragonmagic never
>advocated. "Anything" covers a LOT of ground.. The only remedy DM has
>suggested is really one on Duane's part, not asking anyone else to strongarm
>him...
Geez, fine, I will spell it out as clearly as I can. What does he expect Darrel
Exline and The Confurence Group to do about Kevin Duane fudging on his payment
dates to artists?
Blackberry
>
>I've stated this before, and I will so do again, to make the record clear:
>
>Kevin Dwayne paid me, IN FULL and in CASH, for my work on Stripe Tease, at
>Conifur 2000.
>
>Figured I point that out for any records being kept on who and who hasn't
>received payment.
Thanks for the information. What were the payment details in your contract?
Blackberry
>
>[...]
>The fact that the contract doesn't specify a time frame to be paid within,
>doesn't get Duane off the hook for non payment. A payment clause is generally a
>defense for the debtor, saying that the contract may not be terminated untill X
>amount of time has gone by with nonpayment. If Duane didn't put a clause like
>that in, -Duane- is the one in the hotseat, not the artist. The artist would
>be fully within his rights to pull the contract a nanosecond after the disks
>come off the press .
Yes, I agree with you. So why don't they?
LancerAdvancd iBuck
>Darrel
>Exline and The Confurence Group to do about Kevin Duane fudging on his payment
>dates to artists?
NOTHING!
Dragon Magic
And to those who keep saying that some artists were paid,
we're not denying that.
The point is that some are NOT being paid, or have never
been paid, for their work. Even if only one artist isn't paid,
that's one too many artists for Duane to be good.