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Sirius explains herself....

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siriu...@hotmail.com

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6 Dec 1997, 03:00:0006/12/1997
to

Hi everyone. I thought this was needed since I have been getting replies
that are wrong. I came here about a month ago and I think my orignal
entrace was missed by alot of people, or you just didn't want to talk to
another newbie. (which I understand) In any rate not many people got to
see it, but since I have been posting quite a lot I don't think many have
missed me since. Anyway I'm rambling. (Oh this is my disclaimer, My mun
can't spell. So if you see anything really bad I'm sorry.)

Where did I get the name Sirius? Well that is easy my mun found me flying
through the heavens searching for a new home after my planet was
destroyed in a war. All my people left for another planet, but I staied
behind as long as I could to protect our history and see that it would be
save and preserved for our return. When I finally left I had no idea
where they all went or if any survied. So to my knowledge I'm the last
Dragoness of Terrin. My name, Sirius comes from the star of the same
name. It is here that my mun saw me one night as she gazed at her
favorite star. The star is also called the dog star and is female since
her puppies are around her in a box like consetllation.

The name is pronounced like Serious. As in I'm serious about this. Not Sir
ius. Maybe the Sir part is what threw people.

So as you can clearly see I am female. I don't want to embarrass anyone,
but some of the replies to me have me in them as a male. I just thought I
shouls clear that up, without pointing any fingers.

What do I look like? I'm about 30 yards long and 50 tall in my favorite
form. I aslo do shift sizes, and since most of you seem, from what you
describe of yourselves, are smaller you can assume that when I talk to
someone I'm the same size as they are. I'm a metallic white dragon. My
hide kind of looks like Mother of Pearl, I guess abetter way to describe
it would have been iredesant white. My eyes have a slight glow, kinda of
like faint stars. I'm a nornal shape for a dragon (as in Western normal).

You can reach me at siriu...@hotmail.com. You may mail me with
anything you like since this is all the account is used for. I prefer to
have my posts answered by email also since I seem to be plagued with
deamons a lot.

If you have any questions just ask. I'm sorry if I wasted anyones time. I
just thought that the newbies and some who have never met me before would
like to know.

(my mun if anyone cares--lives in So. CA and works for a little aerospacwe
Co. That is where the love of stars comes from. I hope that someday she
really gets to go to Sirius instead of just gazing at it.)


**Sirius**/Robyn Macklin we're one and the same.

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet

Polenth

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6 Dec 1997, 03:00:0006/12/1997
to

>So as you can clearly see I am female. I don't want to embarrass anyone,
>but some of the replies to me have me in them as a male. I just thought I
>shouls clear that up, without pointing any fingers.

I can sympathize. I've been mistaken for a male many a time. If you have the
kind of name that creatures get the gender wrong for you'll probably be
correcting creatures for a long while. I thought about tatooing 'I'm female' on
my forehead, but I decided against :)

Polenth
Clan Stormcrest

DC.D CDP a- d+++ WL+* L14f Balkali f e! m-
My weyr is at: http://members.aol.com/polenth/weyr.htm
Owner of 'Herbal Concoctions' and 'The Forest Inn'

Greffindel

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7 Dec 1997, 03:00:0007/12/1997
to

In article <19971206231...@ladder02.news.aol.com>
the wise Polenth (pol...@aol.com) quoth thus:

>>So as you can clearly see I am female. I don't want to embarrass anyone,
>>but some of the replies to me have me in them as a male. I just thought I
>>shouls clear that up, without pointing any fingers.

>I can sympathize. I've been mistaken for a male many a time. If you have the
>kind of name that creatures get the gender wrong for you'll probably be
>correcting creatures for a long while. I thought about tatooing 'I'm female' on
>my forehead, but I decided against :)

What you need is one of Alexyth's Super-Sticky Labels...

>Polenth
>Clan Stormcrest

>DC.D CDP a- d+++ WL+* L14f Balkali f e! m-
>My weyr is at: http://members.aol.com/polenth/weyr.htm
>Owner of 'Herbal Concoctions' and 'The Forest Inn'

--Greffindel the Plaid, remembering...

/\/ \/ \/\ "This is Serious," said Pooh. "I must have an Escape."
/ ( O O ) \ --A. A. Milne
/ */\_/\_/\__\_
/ *( o \ "... so the truth is, Simon and Simon were not brothers
|*\ --v-v-v-v | in real life, but only on television."
\*\==\ --Cartman, _South Park_
\*\==\ "If dolphins are so smart, how come they live in igloos"
.sig |*|==| -- ibid.
V2.0 |*|==| Would it save you any trouble if I just went mad now?
|*|==| --Arthur Dent

lmth.nogard\dnefispi~\ude.snaku.cc.elgae\\:ptth :etisbew ym tisiV
lmth.renrocyrteop\yrteop\dnefispi~\... :ta yrteoP
*please don't send me adverts, chain mail, or Internet Marketing Opportunities*

Chris Kennedy

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7 Dec 1997, 03:00:0007/12/1997
to

pol...@aol.com (Polenth) wrote in alt.fan.dragons:

>In article <8814328...@dejanews.com>, siriu...@hotmail.com writes:
>
>>So as you can clearly see I am female. I don't want to embarrass anyone,
>>but some of the replies to me have me in them as a male. I just thought I
>>shouls clear that up, without pointing any fingers.
>
>I can sympathize. I've been mistaken for a male many a time. If you have the
>kind of name that creatures get the gender wrong for you'll probably be
>correcting creatures for a long while. I thought about tatooing 'I'm female' on
>my forehead, but I decided against :)

Lyr smiles, "Me too. All the time. Mine is, I guess, a sort of
male-sounding name. At least to other dragons... sounds quite female
to me, though. And I'll remember that, Sirius. I have to admit I
might've thought on just seeing the name that you were male. Sirius,
like the star, right? And I think you said something about us not
wanting to talk to newbies in your post? Please don't think that! I
know I don't post to a lot of newcomers' first posts because during
the week I barely have the time to read the group at all. So I might
answer if I'm lucky enough to get an intro post on a weekend when I'm
not busy. If not, I'm really not ignoring you, I promise (this is for
all newbies!)."

--Lyr, who supposes it's appropriate that she should be mistaken for
female, considering that as a human she goes by Chris and has the same
problems when using that name on the 'net as well...
--
DC.D f++ sRL--- sVR+ h++ CGwK a- $ m d++ WL++* Fr- L20f Bwhatever e++ g- i-!
"In a world full of people, only some want to fly, isn't that crazy?"
--Seal, "Crazy"
psych...@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/4651/

Purrzah

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7 Dec 1997, 03:00:0007/12/1997
to Polenth

Polenth wrote:
>
> In article <8814328...@dejanews.com>, siriu...@hotmail.com writes:
>
> >So as you can clearly see I am female. I don't want to embarrass anyone,
> >but some of the replies to me have me in them as a male. I just thought I
> >shouls clear that up, without pointing any fingers.

{Well, as usual my server chose not to show your original post. :/}

> I can sympathize. I've been mistaken for a male many a time. If you have the
> kind of name that creatures get the gender wrong for you'll probably be
> correcting creatures for a long while. I thought about tatooing 'I'm female' on
> my forehead, but I decided against :)

{I have noticed that with all the wonderful and imaginative names for
dragons being used, genders can be confusing unless the dragon speaks of
him/herself in the third person. I found it interesting that the dragon
code, which offers so much information, does not include "G" for
gender. Perhapse it should be suggested? Of course, for those
shapeshifters that don't have a gender, we could have G?, but otherwise
it could be Gm or Gf. What dost thou ladies think? (Yes, I know that's
wrong... it should just be 'you'... ;) }


>
> Polenth
> Clan Stormcrest
>
> DC.D CDP a- d+++ WL+* L14f Balkali f e! m-
> My weyr is at: http://members.aol.com/polenth/weyr.htm
> Owner of 'Herbal Concoctions' and 'The Forest Inn'

--
Kathi “Cat” Pickett pur...@kdn.net () ()
PLEASE! Reply by e-mail AND post! =(U.U)=
Known in another reality as “Purrzah” the Goddess of Cats
See her temple at http://www.oz.net/~bpickett/dragoncat.html
------------------------------------------------------------
Purrzah: DC.?(Dracozar) f s+ df+ h--- CW.K~W a $-- m**
d++ WL++* Fr L2m BC e g i- u-
Mate to Brood, the Celestial Dragon
Snugs: DC.D f s+ h--- CP.G a-- $-- m--
d++ WL++* Fr- L1m (L--) BSpots e? g+ i- U!
Spotted menace to Alfandra, Sometimes!

Kalessin

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7 Dec 1997, 03:00:0007/12/1997
to

Polenth wrote:

> I can sympathize. I've been mistaken for a male many a time. If you have the
> kind of name that creatures get the gender wrong for you'll probably be
> correcting creatures for a long while.

"Am I the only male dragon here who has *ever* been mistaken for a
female?!?!? It onlyed happened once, in the Music Party thread I was
playing in, but still..."

I thought about tatooing 'I'm female' on
> my forehead, but I decided against :)

"Well, it would make quite a statement, Polenth. <g>"

> Polenth


--
Kalessin Starfire, the last Dragon Sorceror.

DC.D f- s h++++ C?(-:HG) a++ $ m d++ WL++* Fr-- L- BF e!! g- i-! U++

"Don't look back- something might be gaining on you." Satchell Paige

"We don't want to hurt you- we just want to drain your living essence!"
Skeksis, from _The Dark Crystal_.

Sam

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8 Dec 1997, 03:00:0008/12/1997
to

On 6 Dec 1997, Polenth wrote:

> I can sympathize. I've been mistaken for a male many a time. If you have the
> kind of name that creatures get the gender wrong for you'll probably be

> correcting creatures for a long while. I thought about tatooing 'I'm female' on


> my forehead, but I decided against :)

I put "Quen/CuteElf is male" in my /whois-info.

It doesn't help much. :)

--quen


Spitfire

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8 Dec 1997, 03:00:0008/12/1997
to

Spitfire wanders into the thread, her browridges raised
in amusement and curiosity,...

"It isn't often, but somehow I'm occasionally confused
with a fifty-year-old airplane!"

* -- Spitfire, flying dragoness and not a flying *machine*!

Sam

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8 Dec 1997, 03:00:0008/12/1997
to

On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, Kalessin wrote:

> "Am I the only male dragon here who has *ever* been mistaken for a
> female?!?!? It onlyed happened once, in the Music Party thread I was
> playing in, but still..."

Happens to me at least once or twice a week on average...

--quen


Polenth

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8 Dec 1997, 03:00:0008/12/1997
to

In article <348A8A...@kdn.net>, Purrzah <kpic...@kdn.net> writes:

>{I have noticed that with all the wonderful and imaginative names for
>dragons being used, genders can be confusing unless the dragon speaks of
>him/herself in the third person. I found it interesting that the dragon
>code, which offers so much information, does not include "G" for
>gender. Perhapse it should be suggested? Of course, for those
>shapeshifters that don't have a gender, we could have G?, but otherwise
>it could be Gm or Gf. What dost thou ladies think? (Yes, I know that's
>wrong... it should just be 'you'... ;) }

You'd probably need n for neuter, and h for hemaphrodite as well. I know two
hemaphrodites who would be very insulted to think there wasn't a code for them.
They were upset enough that there wasn't a code for tree in species:)

siriu...@hotmail.com

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8 Dec 1997, 03:00:0008/12/1997
to pur...@kdn.net

In article <348A8A...@kdn.net>,

pur...@kdn.net wrote:
>
> Polenth wrote:
> >
> > In article <8814328...@dejanews.com>, siriu...@hotmail.com writes:
> >
> > >So as you can clearly see I am female. I don't want to embarrass anyone,
> > >but some of the replies to me have me in them as a male. I just thought I
> > >shouls clear that up, without pointing any fingers.
>
> {Well, as usual my server chose not to show your original post. :/}

Don't worry I couldn't see it even when I did a direct search for it. I
have bad deamons.

> > I can sympathize. I've been mistaken for a male many a time. If you have the
> > kind of name that creatures get the gender wrong for you'll probably be
> > correcting creatures for a long while. I thought about tatooing 'I'm
female' on
> > my forehead, but I decided against :)
>

We could start a new trend...We could all tatoo the sign for female on
our right shoulder or something. LOL (amused at the thought that
beautiful ladies would have to resort to tatoos to define them as
female.)

> {I have noticed that with all the wonderful and imaginative names for
> dragons being used, genders can be confusing unless the dragon speaks of
> him/herself in the third person. I found it interesting that the dragon
> code, which offers so much information, does not include "G" for
> gender. Perhapse it should be suggested? Of course, for those
> shapeshifters that don't have a gender, we could have G?, but otherwise
> it could be Gm or Gf. What dost thou ladies think? (Yes, I know that's
> wrong... it should just be 'you'... ;) }
> >

I think we should add gender to the dragon code. Gm Gf and G?. If we just
start to do it then it should catch on and at least we will know. Or we
could just write out female at the end of our code which would just be
painful.


> > Polenth
> > Clan Stormcrest

> Kathi “Cat” Pickett pur...@kdn.net () ()

**Sirius**
DC.D f+ S h++++ CMW a- $ m WL++* L* BE e++! g i--! ****Gf****

Purrzah

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8 Dec 1997, 03:00:0008/12/1997
to Polenth

Polenth wrote:

> You'd probably need n for neuter, and h for hemaphrodite as well. I know two
> hemaphrodites who would be very insulted to think there wasn't a code for them.
> They were upset enough that there wasn't a code for tree in species:)

{Bow to the lady of the Inn-- and Gn and Gh. Of course, I had
originally thought these could fall under G?, but I confess, I did not
thing of Tree and Sapling. My _deepest_ apologies.}

> Polenth

--

Kathi “Cat” Pickett pur...@kdn.net () ()

Purrzah

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8 Dec 1997, 03:00:0008/12/1997
to siriu...@hotmail.com

siriu...@hotmail.com wrote:
>

> We could start a new trend...We could all tatoo the sign for female on
> our right shoulder or something. LOL (amused at the thought that
> beautiful ladies would have to resort to tatoos to define them as
> female.)

{For some of us that wouldn't show--Purrzah's fur would cover it up :)}

>
> I think we should add gender to the dragon code. Gm Gf and G?. If we just
> start to do it then it should catch on and at least we will know. Or we
> could just write out female at the end of our code which would just be
> painful.

{Add Gn for neuter, and Gh for hermaphrodite, in honor of Lady
Polenth's suggestion. Maybe we should e-mail these suggestions to the
individual in charge of the Dragon Code-- s/he did say that gender was
in consideration.}

> **Sirius**

Draco Draconis Ebenium

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9 Dec 1997, 03:00:0009/12/1997
to


Kalessin <atwi...@teleport.com> wrote in article
<348B71...@teleport.com>...


> "Am I the only male dragon here who has *ever* been mistaken for a
> female?!?!? It onlyed happened once, in the Music Party thread I was
> playing in, but still..."

"Well, there was the time that Burath got mistaken for one, and given
panties at that, but let's try and forget that particularly misguided soul,
shall we?"


--
Draco Draconis Ebenium | "Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons,
aka Ebony the Black Dragon | for you are chewy and taste great
known to the Human Race as | dipped in chocolate."
Aaron F. Johnson | -- Anonymous
eb...@cyberramp.net |
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
I'm a Black Dragon, trapped in a White Man's Body -- YARK!!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
"Surreality just got funky!" -- Scud, the Disposable Assassin
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
Nobody WANTS my opinions!


Sam

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9 Dec 1997, 03:00:0009/12/1997
to

On Mon, 8 Dec 1997 siriu...@hotmail.com wrote:

> We could start a new trend...We could all tatoo the sign for female on
> our right shoulder or something. LOL (amused at the thought that
> beautiful ladies would have to resort to tatoos to define them as
> female.)

Does that mean that UGLY ladies *should* have to resort to tattoos? ;)

Btw, re dragon-code suggestions: there are/were a bunch of hermaphrodites
around.

--quen


Polenth

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9 Dec 1997, 03:00:0009/12/1997
to

In article <348C71...@kdn.net>, Purrzah <kpic...@kdn.net> writes:

>{Add Gn for neuter, and Gh for hermaphrodite, in honor of Lady
>Polenth's suggestion. Maybe we should e-mail these suggestions to the
>individual in charge of the Dragon Code-- s/he did say that gender was
>in consideration.}
>

You could but Baxil (he) hasn't been around for a while, and the dragon code
page hasn't updated in a while. I did mail some suggestions for other things,
but nothing came of it. As the dragon code is meant to reflect popular usage I
would say that as long as the Dominance agrees it is a good idea then we could
start using it. The page could then oneday be changed to reflect it. It may
mean having to point out what it means to newcomers, but otherwise I don't
think we're going to have a gender code for a long while yet. Maybe someone
should post a copy of the suggestion with a suitable header (like Idea for
Gender code) and see what creatures think. If it's generally liked we could
then start to use it. I think all the past suggestions fell into the trap of it
having to be linked to the species code, and the confusion with brackets. I
think this idea is much clearer.

Purrzah

unread,
10 Dec 1997, 03:00:0010/12/1997
to Polenth

Polenth wrote:

> You could but Baxil (he) hasn't been around for a while, and the dragon code
> page hasn't updated in a while. I did mail some suggestions for other things,
> but nothing came of it. As the dragon code is meant to reflect popular usage I
> would say that as long as the Dominance agrees it is a good idea then we could
> start using it. The page could then oneday be changed to reflect it. It may
> mean having to point out what it means to newcomers, but otherwise I don't
> think we're going to have a gender code for a long while yet. Maybe someone
> should post a copy of the suggestion with a suitable header (like Idea for
> Gender code) and see what creatures think. If it's generally liked we could
> then start to use it. I think all the past suggestions fell into the trap of it
> having to be linked to the species code, and the confusion with brackets. I
> think this idea is much clearer.

{I think that's a great idea! Okay, for those of you who may see this
(or not) Polenth, Sirius, and I have discussed adding a new code to the
Dragon Code. "G" for "Gender" with the following codes.

Gm -- Male
Gf -- Female
G? -- Changeable or undecided
Gn -- Neuter
Gh -- Hermaprodite

Input and any further suggestions are requested! You can e-mail to me
so Polenth and Sirius won't get swamped... I'm already swamped and
enjoying it! :)}

P.S. I e-mailed this to every dragon I have the info on, and if you
have no problem with seeing my posts, please tell me and I will stop
e-mailing you! :)


> Polenth

Insectfoil

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11 Dec 1997, 03:00:0011/12/1997
to

Purrzah wrote:
>Okay, for those of you who may see this
>(or not) Polenth, Sirius, and I have discussed adding a new code to the
>Dragon Code. "G" for "Gender" with the following codes.
>
>Gm -- Male
>Gf -- Female
>G? -- Changeable or undecided
>Gn -- Neuter
>Gh -- Hermaprodite

"Sounds wonderful! And if you have a different gender
altogether, having nothing to do with male and female, you could
always write it out: Gmygender. Like the color code used to be.

"And for beings like me, who are physically one gender, but
still somewhat confused mentally, you could have something like
Gf/?. (I'm a gender-dysphoric dwaggie myself, and wouldn't
want to get left out of the code!)

Eodrakken, sans-a-sig

adul...@nospam.hotmail.com

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11 Dec 1997, 03:00:0011/12/1997
to

>Kalessin <atwi...@teleport.com> wrote
>> "Am I the only male dragon here who has *ever* been mistaken for a
>> female?!?!? It onlyed happened once, in the Music Party thread I was
>> playing in, but still..."
>
> "Well, there was the time that Burath got mistaken for one, and given
>panties at that, but let's try and forget that particularly misguided soul,
>shall we?"

Teph smirks at Ebony. "You know, I do believe I missed the beginning
of that, but I do remember the fascination with dragon panties that
followed."


jlutes

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11 Dec 1997, 03:00:0011/12/1997
to

<snipp>

> Gm -- Male
> Gf -- Female
> G? -- Changeable or undecided
> Gn -- Neuter
> Gh -- Hermaprodite

I think that's a good idea, it would clear up a lot of confusion.

Saphyre

Insectfoil

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12 Dec 1997, 03:00:0012/12/1997
to

Saphyre wrote:
>> Gm -- Male
>> Gf -- Female
>> G? -- Changeable or undecided
>> Gn -- Neuter
>> Gh -- Hermaprodite
>
>I think that's a good idea, it would clear up a lot of confusion.

"Indeed. I for one am putting it in my code (as soon as I
reconstruct my sig!). You wouldn't believe how often people
mistake my gender here. It happens all the time!"

Eodrakken, sans-a-sig

Polenth

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13 Dec 1997, 03:00:0013/12/1997
to

For the Gwynedd's of this world, though many people relise that gender and
biological sex are different, I've found that saying my bioloical sex is female
gets me strange looks compared with saying my gender is female. I'm assuming
this tag is for biological sex, not gender. If it were literally gender I would
have suggested entirely different tags.

I've come up with another tag BTW. Some creatures like frogs change sex, so for
one in transisiton you could have Gf>m for a female becoming male for example.
Any of the previous letters could be subtituted. Any views on that idea?

(the changing symbol is the same as the colour changing symbol already in use
in the colour section)

Polenth
Clan Stormcrest

DC.D Gf CDP a- d+++ WL+* L14f Balkali f e! m-

Paul Gilham

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13 Dec 1997, 03:00:0013/12/1997
to

Quoth sta...@xtra.co.nz (Tiarella StarWings):
[munch]
>OH NO! Oh the other books are wonderful! *Tia swoons in horror* You
>will love them.

*G* "Well, that's certainly a pretty glowing recommendation!"

>I personally think they are a lot more mature and darker in tone than
>Tapestry but, don't dismiss them.

"Okay. I have to admit, I'm a sucker for a happy ending, but that
doesn't mean I don't read darker books, especially if you say they're
more mature than the already fairly grown-up Fionavar." }:=8)

>Tigana - most peoples favourite of the 3,

*nod* "I had heard that from various sources, yes."

>not mine personally.

"Well, if we all liked exactly the same stuff, we couldn't have
interesting discussions like this, oculd we?" }:=8)

>A tale of a country which has been cursed by a wizard, it has been
>wiped from the memories of all who were not born natives. If the name
>was said, it was not heard.

"Interesting premise!"

>It is the story of a group of natives who are trying to right the wrong
>done, and intertwined is the story of the wizard who did the deed.

"Good. It'll be nice to see a more than one-dimensional baddie
occasionally."

>Song for Arbonne - my personal fave. At the battle of Ierson Bridge a
>King was killed and a prince began to rule. Changes were made, and
>concessions made at the Peace talks. A son cannot forgive his father
>or his country for what has been done and leaves to make his way in
>the world.

"Okay. Sounds a little contrived just to get a royal wanderer as the
main character, but I'm sure, being Kay, it's not."

>Eventually ends up in Arbonne, the land of sunlight, courtly love and a
>tragic rivalry between two men which threatens to tear the country apart.
>War is threatened from the north, will Arbonne be united in time..........

"Hmm. Threat from the north, two warring brothers preventing the good
guys from uniting ...? Sounds sort of familiar, wouldn't you say?"
};=8)

"Nonetheless, with such high praise, I think I shall give it a whirl."

>Lions of Al-rassan - a group of nobles is slaughtered by command of
>the king, but it is the man who organised it who is blamed for it.

"Right."

>Another country, and the right hand of the king is killed by the left
>hand (RH was conspiring to poison the king and found out) The two men
>meet up and with a war band, sell themselves as mercenaries.

"LH having been exiled for the murder, presumably?"

>Until war between their countries threatens and each man is called back
>and forgiven by his king. But now they will have to fight each other...
>
>Tempted your taste buds?

"Ooh, a conflict of emotions! I always think that's the best sort of
fantasy -- one that doesn't rely exclusively on the setting for plot,
but intertwines the feelings and foibles of the characters into
things, too. It's far easier to empathise with flawed characters,
IMHO, than it is with the perfect fantasy Hero."

"Okay, Tia, ya got me. }:=8) I'll see if I can find them."
____________________________________________________________
\^\^//
,^ ( ..) Paul Gilham ~~ Samurai Dragon ~~ (remove fish to reply)
| \ \ -==(UDIC)==- d++e-N T--Om++U1467'8u-uC++uF-uG++uLB+uA+nC++
\ `^--^ uR nH+nP+++nI++nPT++nS+++nT--wM-wC oA++y+a22
\ \ \ AFD: DC.D f+s+h--CK^K a $-m-d++WL++ Fr^L12m BW e+g--i--!U!
ksj ^--^ ____________________________________________________________

Wyrm

unread,
15 Dec 1997, 03:00:0015/12/1997
to

Greetings.

insec...@aol.com (Insectfoil) spake thus:

Hang on. Before you do, it might be a good idea to check out the DragonHold
Dragon Code. They have been mirroring the Official Dragon Code closely and
they have come up with a code for gender already. It is:

(m) Male
(f) Female
(n) Neuter
(h) Hermaphrodite

We could then add:

(?) Unknown
(~) Changeable

and so on.

Wyrm.

--
Wyrm: http://www.wyrm.demon.co.uk/

DC.D f++ s-- h++ CFire a+++++ $+ (m) d+++
WL++ Fr++++ L700f BF e+++ g-- i+! U+++

Dragon's, coming, out of the sea.
Shimmering silver head of wisdom looking at me.
Peter Gabriel - Genesis.

Polenth

unread,
15 Dec 1997, 03:00:0015/12/1997
to

In article <EL8os...@flightdata.co.uk>, laur...@wyrm.demon.co.uk (Wyrm)
writes:

>(m) Male
>(f) Female
>(n) Neuter
>(h) Hermaphrodite
>
>We could then add:
>
>(?) Unknown
>(~) Changeable
>
>and so on.

There is a problem with it conflicting with the shapeshifting tag. If we were
to get round that by using different styles of breackets it'd probably cause
confusion. Some creatures use different brackets as standard in their code.
That's why we don't use the dragon hold code suggestion, but there still seems
the fixation that it has to be part of the species code. A seperate code for
biological sex would get rid of the shapeshifting conflict.

For example DC.? (f) could then be a shapeshifter in the form of a fish, or a
female shapeshifter. Though the other little letters are not represented in the
race section, with the continual addition of new races that could easily
change. I suppose that DC.? (?) could be seen as a shapeshifter in shapeshifter
form (someone might use it, you never know:)), as well as a shapeshifter of
unknown sex.

I like the idea of a seperate code for changeable, but I think the changing in
progress code could still be useful for a species which changes few times and
slowly. (for those that didn't see the suggestion it was Gm>f for a male
turning into a female for example) If it's going to take a few months to change
sex the code would then give anyone who reads it a clue as to what's going on.
A species who changes sex every week would probably prefer the changeable code
so that they don't need to keep altering their dragon code.

FoulDragon

unread,
16 Dec 1997, 03:00:0016/12/1997
to

>Hang on. Before you do, it might be a good idea to check out the DragonHold
>Dragon Code. They have been mirroring the Official Dragon Code closely and
>they have come up with a code for gender already. It is:
>
>(m) Male
>(f) Female
>(n) Neuter
>(h) Hermaphrodite
>
>We could then add:
>
>(?) Unknown
>(~) Changeable
>
>and so on.
>
>Wyrm.
>
>

But that looks very similar to the proposal, but it takes more space. Some of
us have very little space alloted for sigs and after putting in a name, clan,
quote and dragoncode, there might not be enough space. I reccomend something
like that, but sans parentheses.
-Marada.

Insectfoil

unread,
16 Dec 1997, 03:00:0016/12/1997
to

Wyrm wrote:
>Hang on. Before you do, it might be a good idea to check out the DragonHold
>Dragon Code. They have been mirroring the Official Dragon Code closely and
>they have come up with a code for gender already. It is:
>(m) Male
>(f) Female
>(n) Neuter
>(h) Hermaphrodite
>
>We could then add:
>
>(?) Unknown
>(~) Changeable

"But, as Baxil has mentioned, that interferes with the current
shapeshifter tag. Sorry Wyrm, it was a nice thought..."


---Eodrakken Trypnotk Quicksilver---

DC.D Gf/? f s++ h-- CMolivegreen a $ m d++ WL++*
Fr^ L202ft Bhydrogen/fire

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/ihopd/portal.html

"There's not much left to love...Too tired today to hate..."
--M. Manson

Cerulean

unread,
16 Dec 1997, 03:00:0016/12/1997
to

fould...@aol.com (FoulDragon) wrote:

>>Hang on. Before you do, it might be a good idea to check out the DragonHold
>>Dragon Code. They have been mirroring the Official Dragon Code closely and
>>they have come up with a code for gender already. It is:
>>
>>(m) Male
>>(f) Female
>>(n) Neuter
>>(h) Hermaphrodite

Well, there seems to be a consensus on the letters to be used. That's
good.

>>We could then add:
>>
>>(?) Unknown
>>(~) Changeable
>>

>>and so on.

I suggest a "u" instead of a question mark, to avoid confusion with
the shapeshifter symbol. In fact, let's keep it all in the alphabet;
how about "v" for "variable"?

>But that looks very similar to the proposal, but it takes more space. Some of
>us have very little space alloted for sigs and after putting in a name, clan,
>quote and dragoncode, there might not be enough space. I reccomend something
>like that, but sans parentheses.
>-Marada.

I second that. Some of us want to stay within "McQ", even if the rest
of Usenet has forgotten. I'm still kind of disappointed with the
redundant construction of WL++*.

I think the upper and lower cases will make it easy enough to read.
DC.Dm is a male dragon, etc. It only adds one character to the code,
as opposed to DC.D(m) or Gm.

This will require an important note, though: "f" is the code item
immediately following. In codes without any separating spaces, look
for the second "f" before assuming someone is female; only one "f" in
the code means the gender indication hasn't been included.

--
___vvz /( Cerulean=Kevin Pease DC.D/? fs+h+ CB^P a$m++d+++l*WL++*g-e!i
<__,` Z / ( Art! > http://home.earthlink.net/~kpease/cerulean/index.html
`~~~) )Z) ( FDDmp4adwsA+++$C*D>+HM-P-R+T+++WZ?Sm# RLAac++dwd+e++i+p--sm#
/ (7 ( swepV-- sassa)u!Jd snoua^eJ woJj sJa+suow 7nj!+neaq 6u!n)saJ


Wyrm

unread,
16 Dec 1997, 03:00:0016/12/1997
to

Greetings.

kpe...@earthlink.net (Cerulean) spake thus:


>fould...@aol.com (FoulDragon) wrote:
>I think the upper and lower cases will make it easy enough to read.
>DC.Dm is a male dragon, etc. It only adds one character to the code,
>as opposed to DC.D(m) or Gm.

However, as DC.Do is a Dolphin, and there are other two-letter species
codes, there will still be a problem.

>This will require an important note, though: "f" is the code item
>immediately following. In codes without any separating spaces, look
>for the second "f" before assuming someone is female; only one "f" in
>the code means the gender indication hasn't been included.

There is technically no order in which the code can be written, except that
DC. should go first to identify it as Dragon Code.

One could use symbols rather than letters to identify gender.

| Male
^ Female
* Neuter
+ Hermaphrodite
~ Changeable
- Unknown

Otherwise we'll have to accept the Gender tag.

Wyrm - Or something like that.

Juniper

unread,
16 Dec 1997, 03:00:0016/12/1997
to FoulDragon

(posted and e-mailed)
On 16 Dec 1997, FoulDragon wrote:

> >Hang on. Before you do, it might be a good idea to check out the DragonHold
> >Dragon Code. They have been mirroring the Official Dragon Code closely and
> >they have come up with a code for gender already. It is:
> >
> >(m) Male
> >(f) Female
> >(n) Neuter
> >(h) Hermaphrodite
> >

> >We could then add:
> >
> >(?) Unknown
> >(~) Changeable
> >
> >and so on.
> >

> >Wyrm.


> >
> >
>
> But that looks very similar to the proposal, but it takes more space. Some of
> us have very little space alloted for sigs and after putting in a name, clan,
> quote and dragoncode, there might not be enough space. I reccomend something
> like that, but sans parentheses.
> -Marada.
>
>

Why not make a gender code an optional code? that way, thse that want it
in their sig can have one, and those that have limited space don't _have_
to include it....

Juniper- finally caught up on posts! Whoohoo!!!

DC.H f--- s(RL- VR++) df+++ h-- CF a- $-- m+ d+ WL+^ Fr-- L- e-- g--- i! U


"Never invoke the gods unless you really want them to appear. It annoys
them very much."
-G.K. Chesterton


Tiarella StarWings

unread,
16 Dec 1997, 03:00:0016/12/1997
to

Pa...@Samurai.force9trout.net (Paul Gilham) wrote:

>Quoth sta...@xtra.co.nz (Tiarella StarWings):
>[munch]

>>Song for Arbonne - my personal fave. At the battle of Ierson Bridge a


>>King was killed and a prince began to rule. Changes were made, and
>>concessions made at the Peace talks. A son cannot forgive his father
>>or his country for what has been done and leaves to make his way in
>>the world.

>"Okay. Sounds a little contrived just to get a royal wanderer as the
>main character, but I'm sure, being Kay, it's not."

Well I have distilled the essence out of the story, without giving
anything essential away (well trying to), so no there is much more to
the background than that.

>>Eventually ends up in Arbonne, the land of sunlight, courtly love and a
>>tragic rivalry between two men which threatens to tear the country apart.
>>War is threatened from the north, will Arbonne be united in time..........
>
>"Hmm. Threat from the north, two warring brothers preventing the good
>guys from uniting ...? Sounds sort of familiar, wouldn't you say?"

Oh no not brothers at all. It is a rivalry which had been going on
for about 20 years and was the ruin of both (in some ways), but it is
not a simple happening that caused the rift.

>"Nonetheless, with such high praise, I think I shall give it a whirl."

Oh please do, I would lend you mine but it is a bit far :-) I would
love to year your thoughts (on all of them) once you have finally read
them.

>>Lions of Al-rassan - a group of nobles is slaughtered by command of
>>the king, but it is the man who organised it who is blamed for it.
>
>"Right."
>
>>Another country, and the right hand of the king is killed by the left
>>hand (RH was conspiring to poison the king and found out) The two men
>>meet up and with a war band, sell themselves as mercenaries.

>"LH having been exiled for the murder, presumably?"

Oops I forgot to mention that, well spotted Tonto!

>>Until war between their countries threatens and each man is called back
>>and forgiven by his king. But now they will have to fight each other...

>>Tempted your taste buds?

>"Ooh, a conflict of emotions! I always think that's the best sort of
>fantasy -- one that doesn't rely exclusively on the setting for plot,
>but intertwines the feelings and foibles of the characters into
>things, too. It's far easier to empathise with flawed characters,
>IMHO, than it is with the perfect fantasy Hero."

Lions is rife with conflicting emotions actually, the ending is as an
epilogue after the most gripping climax I have ever read. By then I
was crying so much I could hardly read it. And then I cried even
more, if you can believe it. GGK ALWAYS makes me cry, every time.

>"Okay, Tia, ya got me. }:=8) I'll see if I can find them."

Best wishes with your search.

Tia


Tiarella StarWings
DC.D f+ s-- h++ CMPwK(holographic sparkles)
a $ m++ d+ WLH* L* BF e++ g i!
sta...@xtra.co.nz
(Note spambuster if replying by email)

Polenth

unread,
16 Dec 1997, 03:00:0016/12/1997
to

In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.97121...@panther1.pen.eiu.edu>,
Juniper <cuj...@pen.eiu.edu> writes:

>Why not make a gender code an optional code? that way, thse that want it
>in their sig can have one, and those that have limited space don't _have_
>to include it....

All dragon code is optional except for DC. so that we know it's dragon code
(though why anyone would bother using it only to say it's dragon code I don't
know:)) I thought the DC page made it clear it was all optional but nevermind
*shrug* You know now:)

Polenth
Clan Stormcrest

DC.D CDP a- d+++ WL+* L14f Balkali f e! m-

Polenth

unread,
16 Dec 1997, 03:00:0016/12/1997
to

In article <ELA02...@flightdata.co.uk>, laur...@wyrm.demon.co.uk (Wyrm)
writes:

>| Male
>^ Female
>* Neuter
>+ Hermaphrodite
>~ Changeable
>- Unknown
>
>Otherwise we'll have to accept the Gender tag.
>

Symbols are less obvious. It's easier to remember that f is female rather then
^. The way I see it adding it to the species code is riddled with problem. A
seperate tag would solve that. It only increases the space needed by two
characters extra. Any creature that has limited space will probably of had to
sacrifice bits of the code already. This is just another such descision. Dragon
Code is suppose to display information in a concise form, but it isn't suppose
to go symbolic to the realms of there being no relation between the tag and
it's meaning. Some tags are a bit inclined to that anyway, but when there is a
letter alternative it seems a good idea to go with that. I vote for reduce the
things that creatures have to learn in order to decifer it.

Cerulean

unread,
17 Dec 1997, 03:00:0017/12/1997
to

pol...@aol.com (Polenth) wrote:

>>| Male
>>^ Female
>>* Neuter
>>+ Hermaphrodite
>>~ Changeable
>>- Unknown
>>
>>Otherwise we'll have to accept the Gender tag.

>Symbols are less obvious. It's easier to remember that f is female rather then
>^.

I agree. These marks seem almost arbitrary, and can be interpreted
differently. When this subject came up a while back, someone suggested
O^ (male) and O+ (female), invoking the Mars and Venus symbols. Though
it was never applied to the official code (there were conflicts with a
semi-official "offspring" tag), there might still be a few people
using it for a lack of anything else. If ^ suddenly means female,
there could be all sorts of confusion.

> The way I see it adding it to the species code is riddled with problem. A
>seperate tag would solve that. It only increases the space needed by two
>characters extra.

Gm, Gf, Gn/G-, Gh, G~/Gc/Gv, Gu.

Fairly easy to read, with plentiful redundant non-conflicting options
for some types. I'm satisfied with this.

Note that I didn't include "G?". That's because ? can imply either
changable or unknown.

Should we have something for gender dysphorics, or can we assume that
people will just take the gender of their desired identity?
In other Codes, > often means "hoping to achieve," e.g. h+>+++.
So if needed, Gm>f and Gf>m will serve.

Wyrm

unread,
17 Dec 1997, 03:00:0017/12/1997
to

Greetings.

insec...@aol.com (Insectfoil) spake thus:


>Wyrm wrote:
>>Hang on. Before you do, it might be a good idea to check out the DragonHold
>>Dragon Code. They have been mirroring the Official Dragon Code closely and
>>they have come up with a code for gender already. It is:
>>(m) Male
>>(f) Female
>>(n) Neuter
>>(h) Hermaphrodite
>>We could then add:
>>(?) Unknown
>>(~) Changeable

>"But, as Baxil has mentioned, that interferes with the current
>shapeshifter tag. Sorry Wyrm, it was a nice thought..."

It would be possible to alter the brackets to [ and ], or something like
that. It's the idea that's the important thing, and in this case two
brackets are more than a single G tag.

Wyrm.

Wyrm

unread,
17 Dec 1997, 03:00:0017/12/1997
to

Greetings.

kpe...@earthlink.net (Cerulean) spake thus:


>pol...@aol.com (Polenth) wrote:
>>Symbols are less obvious. It's easier to remember that f is female rather then
>>^.

I like obfuscation! Besides, one could use ^ for male and + for female. I
was not suggesting that the symbols were cast in stone, only a suggestion.

>> The way I see it adding it to the species code is riddled with problem. A
>>seperate tag would solve that. It only increases the space needed by two
>>characters extra.
>Gm, Gf, Gn/G-, Gh, G~/Gc/Gv, Gu.
>Fairly easy to read, with plentiful redundant non-conflicting options
>for some types. I'm satisfied with this.

and if one's gender is not covered by the selections above, one can
always just spell it out (there might be three-gender species somewhere).

One could use Gfm of Gmf to indicate that one alternates between male and
female...

Just to recap:

Gm Male
Gf Female
Gn Neuter
Ga Androgyne (neither male or female)
Gh Hermaphrodite (both male and female)
Gv Variable
Gu Unknown

G<gender> For genders unspecified above.

Gnm Neutered Male
Gnf Neutered Female
Gmf Male/Female alternation.
Gfm Female/Male alternation.
Gm>f Male changing (or hoping to change) to Female.
Gf>m Female changing (or hoping to change) to Male.

Androgyne and Hermaphrodite technically mean the same thing, however
whereas hermaphrodites display both male and female characteristics,
androgynes don't.

Wyrm - Any more?

Kirath Bendensky

unread,
17 Dec 1997, 03:00:0017/12/1997
to kir...@rt.mipt.ru

laur...@wyrm.demon.co.uk (Wyrm) wrote:
>
> Greetings.
>
> insec...@aol.com (Insectfoil) spake thus:
> >Wyrm wrote:
> >>Hang on. Before you do, it might be a good idea to check out the DragonHold
> >>Dragon Code. They have been mirroring the Official Dragon Code closely and
> >>they have come up with a code for gender already. It is:
> >>(m) Male
> >>(f) Female
> >>(n) Neuter
> >>(h) Hermaphrodite
> >>We could then add:
> >>(?) Unknown
> >>(~) Changeable
> >"But, as Baxil has mentioned, that interferes with the current
> >shapeshifter tag. Sorry Wyrm, it was a nice thought..."
>
> It would be possible to alter the brackets to [ and ], or something like
> that. It's the idea that's the important thing, and in this case two
> brackets are more than a single G tag.

Uhm, maybe I just misunderstand you Wyrm (if yes, correct me) but I don't
think that gender tag is much more important than, say, length tag and
therefore should be emphasized. In fact, length tag is more important to
me for it helps me to determine whether I can pounce on dragon or grab
him/her/it/<anything else> *grin*

So put my two cents in favor of G tag.

Kirath and his two cents.
--
Brother to Image Perlenoire and Java Sunrunner
King of Confusion, proud SDS member and eventual dragon-welcomer
DC.D f+ s+ h-- Cb a $- m d++ WL++* Fr- L67t23 BF e--- g i-! U++
*** CC replies by email to get (faster) answer ***
----------
Windows 3.0. The best $89 solitaire game you can buy.

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet

G. Jones

unread,
17 Dec 1997, 03:00:0017/12/1997
to


On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Wyrm wrote:

> Gm Male
> Gf Female
> Gn Neuter
> Ga Androgyne (neither male or female)

Actually, the word androgynous means both male AND female...

> Gh Hermaphrodite (both male and female)

Whereas hermaphrodite refers to the sex organs...



> Gnm Neutered Male
> Gnf Neutered Female
> Gmf Male/Female alternation.
> Gfm Female/Male alternation.

What is an alternation?
Are you going to include gender dysphoric individuals? Or those
transsexuals?


-Gwynedd


Purrzah

unread,
17 Dec 1997, 03:00:0017/12/1997
to

Wyrm wrote:

> I like obfuscation! Besides, one could use ^ for male and + for
> female. I
> was not suggesting that the symbols were cast in stone, only a
> suggestion.

The symbolic isn't so bad, since if anyone wanted to really decifer
the dragon code for a fellow dragon (unless that one was a seasoned
dragon *bow to the elders*) he/she would have to grab a printout of the
DC anyhow, but in the arguments posted elsewhere in this thread ease of
reading is nice.

> and if one's gender is not covered by the selections above, one can
> always just spell it out (there might be three-gender species
> somewhere).

As with any other part of the code, especially race and color and
breath, writing it out is a good fallback.

>
>
> One could use Gfm of Gmf to indicate that one alternates between male
> and
> female...
>
> Just to recap:
>

> Gm Male
> Gf Female
> Gn Neuter
> Ga Androgyne (neither male or female)

> Gh Hermaphrodite (both male and female)

> Gv Variable
> Gu Unknown
>
> G<gender> For genders unspecified above.
>

> Gnm Neutered Male
> Gnf Neutered Female
> Gmf Male/Female alternation.
> Gfm Female/Male alternation.

> Gm>f Male changing (or hoping to change) to Female.
> Gf>m Female changing (or hoping to change) to Male.
>
> Androgyne and Hermaphrodite technically mean the same thing, however
> whereas hermaphrodites display both male and female characteristics,
> androgynes don't.
>
> Wyrm - Any more?

Oh my! Look what has blossomed from the first few comments! I had
not intended to fall behind on this, I was collecting e-mails for
combining comments, but one thing led to another and I haven't been on
line much. I know there is still sum discussion about the nature of
Androgyne and Hermaphrodite, but I would ask of the senior members, how
will we decide when the code is final? What Wyrm has here seems pretty
good, and clear for the most part... and the code can be updated in the
future, right?

Of course, in complete innocence I had forgotten at first that
gender is not a black and white matter. I'm being educated about this
with every post.

--
Kathi “Cat” Pickett pur...@kdn.net () ()

=(U.U)=


PLEASE! Reply by e-mail AND post!

Known in another reality as “Purrzah” the Goddess of Cats
See her temple at http://www.oz.net/~bpickett/dragoncat.html
------------------------------------------------------------

DC.?(Dracozar) f s+ df+ h--- CW.K~W a $-- m**

d++ WL++* Fr L2m BC e g i- u- Gf

Insectfoil

unread,
18 Dec 1997, 03:00:0018/12/1997
to

Cerulean wrote:
>Should we have something for gender dysphorics, or can we assume that
>people will just take the gender of their desired identity?
>In other Codes, > often means "hoping to achieve," e.g. h+>+++.
>So if needed, Gm>f and Gf>m will serve.

Being one of the gender dysphorics of which you speak, I have
a suggestion. There could be a division between biological sex
and gender, something like the optional division between dragon
age and human age:

Gb -- biological sex
Gg -- gender (mental/emotional)

To use myself as an example, I am biologically female, yet I am
unsure of what gender I identify with. If I constructed my code
in this way, it would look like:

G(bf gu) or Gbf Ggu

I'm sure there's a neater way to do this, but anyway, there's my
suggestion.


---Eodrakken Trypnotk Quicksilver---

DC.D Gf/u f s++ h-- CMolivegreen a $ m d++ WL++*

Wyrm

unread,
18 Dec 1997, 03:00:0018/12/1997
to

Greetings.

Kirath Bendensky <kir...@rt.mipt.ru> spake thus:


>laur...@wyrm.demon.co.uk (Wyrm) wrote:
>> It would be possible to alter the brackets to [ and ], or something like
>> that. It's the idea that's the important thing, and in this case two
>> brackets are more than a single G tag.
>Uhm, maybe I just misunderstand you Wyrm (if yes, correct me)

Of course, no danger of that not happening! :8)

>but I don't
>think that gender tag is much more important than, say, length tag and
>therefore should be emphasized. In fact, length tag is more important to

Surely you mean de-emphasised (and I'm not calling you Shirley either)!
No, it wasn't the idea of 'gender' that was important but the way it (and
any other similar tags in future) is portrayed that is important. Indeed,
gender is evidently not that important for it has taken 'til now for one to
be discussed.

>me for it helps me to determine whether I can pounce on dragon or grab
>him/her/it/<anything else> *grin*
>So put my two cents in favor of G tag.

I do believe that the G tag is probably the best way of indicating gender
in this instance.

Wyrm.

Wyrm

unread,
18 Dec 1997, 03:00:0018/12/1997
to

Greetings.

"G. Jones" <gwj...@u.washington.edu> spake thus:


>On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Wyrm wrote:

>> Gm Male
>> Gf Female
>> Gn Neuter
>> Ga Androgyne (neither male or female)

> Actually, the word androgynous means both male AND female...

Yes, I know. However I am implying a state that appears neither male nor
female but is still hermaphrodite. Someone appearing to be male and female
is neither male or female just as much as one who appears to be neither.

>> Gh Hermaphrodite (both male and female)

> Whereas hermaphrodite refers to the sex organs...

They both refer to that, according to my dictionary.



>> Gnm Neutered Male
>> Gnf Neutered Female
>> Gmf Male/Female alternation.
>> Gfm Female/Male alternation.

> What is an alternation?

A state a flux where something changes between several states.

> Are you going to include gender dysphoric individuals? Or those
>transsexuals?

It could get very complicated. This was why it was never included before.

Polenth

unread,
18 Dec 1997, 03:00:0018/12/1997
to

In article <ELECE...@flightdata.co.uk>, laur...@wyrm.demon.co.uk (Wyrm)
writes:

>>> Gh Hermaphrodite (both male and female)
>> Whereas hermaphrodite refers to the sex organs...
>
>They both refer to that, according to my dictionary.

I think that the psychology divisions of gender/sex words would be best to use
in this case, as they are more defined than the dictionary, which makes
androgynous a gender term, and hemaphrodite a sex term. maybe we need to spilt
gender/sex a bit better, into two tags,

eg

for gender...

Gf - feminine
Gm - masculine
Ga - androgynous
Gu - unknown/unsure
Gv - variable
Gm>f - masculine individual striving to acheive becoming feminine. (letters
replacable as appropriate)

for Biological sex... (I picked X because of sex chromosomes, and that a
captical S would be easier to confuse with $ and s.)

Xm - male
Xf - female
Xn - neuter
Xh - hemaphrodite (one who is truely both male and female -potential to produce
both male and female gametes)
Xp - psedo-hemaphrodite (one who has some characteristics of both male and
female, but is not fully hemaphrodite eg feminising testicular syndrome)
Xv - variable (maybe with the sexes varied between in brackets if they want to
state between what), so Xv(mf) - varies between male and female.
Xu - unknown
Xf>m - female turning into a male. (letters replacable)

As for those wanting to save space, they can just decide which is the most
important to them.

Opinions?

Whatever we decide, someone's going to have to write some very clear
explainations:)

Cerulean

unread,
19 Dec 1997, 03:00:0019/12/1997
to

laur...@wyrm.demon.co.uk (Wyrm) wrote:
>Kirath Bendensky <kir...@rt.mipt.ru> spake thus:
>>but I don't
>>think that gender tag is much more important than, say, length tag and
>>therefore should be emphasized. In fact, length tag is more important to

>Surely you mean de-emphasised (and I'm not calling you Shirley either)!

If you follow the grammar of the sentence, you will see that
"emphasized" falls within the negative of "I don't think that."

(Why am I picking at details like this when I should be in bed
asleep?)

G. Jones

unread,
19 Dec 1997, 03:00:0019/12/1997
to

Ooh, I like this one, It seems ver complete, while including both
physical and psychological aspects...

-Gwynedd


Varquith

unread,
19 Dec 1997, 03:00:0019/12/1997
to

Wyrm wrote:
> Greetings.
> "G. Jones" <gwj...@u.washington.edu> spake thus:
> >> Gnm Neutered Male
> >> Gnf Neutered Female
> >> Gmf Male/Female alternation.
> >> Gfm Female/Male alternation.
> > What is an alternation?
> A state of flux where something changes between several states.

In other words... Saotome Ranma. *ducks thrown fruit*

> > Are you going to include gender dysphoric individuals? Or those
> >transsexuals?
> It could get very complicated. This was why it was never included before.
> Wyrm.

Aren't gender issues always?

--
-Varquith Flameweaver
ICQ: 603748
Resident DJ, Radio KLAH - now in temporary hiatus while
the only DJ (moi, in other words) recovers from his
precipitous return to the Dominance.

Random Radio Quotes:

"Parents sometimes talk about the younger generation as if they had
nothing to do with it."

"Do you believe in love at first sight, or must I walk by you again?"

---__
.oO<O-____
.oO@@@@@@@@@> WARNING: WEIRD CODE BLOCK THINGY FOLLOWS...
@@@@P"------------------------------------------------------------------
@@P" DC.D f+ sRL-- sVR h++ CZ a- $- m- D+ WL++* Fr L30m BF ePsi+++ g-
i-
P"---------------------------------------------------------------------

Shard it, Jim, I'm a doctor, not a...waitaminute, I HAVE become an
ASCII artist! Oh, shells! There goes my best line... :)

Wyrm

unread,
19 Dec 1997, 03:00:0019/12/1997
to

Greetings.

kpe...@earthlink.net (Cerulean) spake thus:


>laur...@wyrm.demon.co.uk (Wyrm) wrote:
>>Kirath Bendensky <kir...@rt.mipt.ru> spake thus:
>>>but I don't
>>>think that gender tag is much more important than, say, length tag and
>>>therefore should be emphasized. In fact, length tag is more important to
>>Surely you mean de-emphasised (and I'm not calling you Shirley either)!
>If you follow the grammar of the sentence, you will see that
>"emphasized" falls within the negative of "I don't think that."

Unfortunately it doesn't. In the sentence one is talking about the gender
tag, thus all statements refer to the gender tag. Thus if one wrote the
sentence out in long form one would get:

but I don't think that [the] gender tag is much more important than, say,
[the] length tag and therefore [it = gender tag] should be emphasized.

Which is basically stating that the Gender Tag should be emphasized because
you don't think that it is more important than the length tag. Thus the
correct word in this case is de-emphasised.

Wyrm - I can't go to bed ... well not yet anyway.

Paul Gilham

unread,
19 Dec 1997, 03:00:0019/12/1997
to

Quoth sta...@xtra.co.nz (Tiarella StarWings):

>Pa...@Samurai.force9trout.net (Paul Gilham) wrote:
>>>Song for Arbonne - my personal fave.

[munch]

>>"Okay. Sounds a little contrived just to get a royal wanderer as the
>>main character, but I'm sure, being Kay, it's not."
>Well I have distilled the essence out of the story, without giving
>anything essential away (well trying to), so no there is much more to
>the background than that.

"Fine -- thanks for avoiding the spoilers. I didn't think Kay would
have created something quite so simple as that."

[munch]


>>"Hmm. Threat from the north, two warring brothers preventing the good
>>guys from uniting ...? Sounds sort of familiar, wouldn't you say?"
>Oh no not brothers at all. It is a rivalry which had been going on
>for about 20 years and was the ruin of both (in some ways), but it is
>not a simple happening that caused the rift.

*nod* "It just sounded passingly similar to the plot in Fionavar, but
as you've mentioned, I'm sure the two will diverge considerably when I
get into a little more detail."

>>"Nonetheless, with such high praise, I think I shall give it a whirl."
>Oh please do, I would lend you mine but it is a bit far :-)

*G* "I think that's fair enough!"

>I would love to year your thoughts (on all of them) once you have
>finally read them.

"Well, I've just dug up 'Arbonne' from the library, but there could be
a bit of a wait before I read it, since I'm in the middle of the 'Dark
is Rising' series at the moment, following the discussion we all had
about it. But I'll certainly have read it before the end of the
month, and I'll let you know what I thought then."

>>>Lions of Al-rassan -
[munch]


>>"LH having been exiled for the murder, presumably?"
>Oops I forgot to mention that, well spotted Tonto!

"Thanks, kemosabe." }:=8)

[munch]


>Lions is rife with conflicting emotions actually, the ending is as an
>epilogue after the most gripping climax I have ever read. By then I
>was crying so much I could hardly read it. And then I cried even
>more, if you can believe it. GGK ALWAYS makes me cry, every time.

*nod* "I can quite understand why."

>>"Okay, Tia, ya got me. }:=8) I'll see if I can find them."
>Best wishes with your search.

"One down, two to go!"

Insectfoil

unread,
19 Dec 1997, 03:00:0019/12/1997
to

I don't think anybody saw my suggestion. I suggested a split in
the G code, like the division between dragon and human age.

Gg -- gender
Gb -- biological sex

Therefore, a being like me, who is physically female and mentally
undecided, would be:

G(bf gu)

'Kay? Everybody see it this time?

Eredien2

unread,
20 Dec 1997, 03:00:0020/12/1997
to

Anyone read Sabriel by Garth Nix?

Well, why not? <g>

Read it, I found it very _very_ good!


Eredien ("Willow" in the Dragonspeech)
Ered...@aol.com
DC.D f s(RL---VR) h--- CLG:g ah- $- m d++ WL+^* Fr- L- Bnone e? g
i! U?

Polenth

unread,
22 Dec 1997, 03:00:0022/12/1997
to

Hmm... this thread seems to have stopped. Does anyone have any more
suggestions, or are we going to decide to accept one of the existing one? The
main ones as I see it as the single G one, Eodrakkens G(b g) where b is
biological sex, and g gender (using the same categories as the single G one I
think?), and my two tag one with X for biological sex and G for gender, with
slightly different categories to the originally suggested ones.

Anyone got any opinions? We've come this far, it'd be a shame to let the whole
discussion die before a discision is reached.

FoulDragon

unread,
22 Dec 1997, 03:00:0022/12/1997
to

>Does anyone have any more
>suggestions, or are we going to decide to accept one of the existing one?

'I've one more.... why no' put the gender *before* the species where it will
not be mistaken for anything else.'
DC.mD=Male Dragon
DC.fD=Dragoness
DC.?D=A drak with gender issues [doesn't know]
<other letters suggested before would be similar, but I forgot them>
DC.D=Dragon of unstated Gender.

Just suggesting.
Marada [DC.mD CDm e--- WL++* sRL-- sVR++ L280cm]

jdpu...@voicenet.com

unread,
22 Dec 1997, 03:00:0022/12/1997
to

fould...@aol.com (FoulDragon) wrote:

>>Does anyone have any more
>>suggestions, or are we going to decide to accept one of the existing one?
>
>'I've one more.... why no' put the gender *before* the species where it will
>not be mistaken for anything else.'
>DC.mD=Male Dragon
>DC.fD=Dragoness
>DC.?D=A drak with gender issues [doesn't know]
><other letters suggested before would be similar, but I forgot them>
>DC.D=Dragon of unstated Gender.

Um, my only reservation with this is that we check to find out which
shape-shifters who have base-forms (ie. Shape-shifter, but usually
dragon) put their letters in--?D or D?. Otherwise, it sounds OK to
me.


>
>Just suggesting.
>Marada [DC.mD CDm e--- WL++* sRL-- sVR++ L280cm]

Dester'edra


Joseph D. Purvis

"We have met the enemy and he is us"
Pogo

jdpu...@voicenet.com

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22 Dec 1997, 03:00:0022/12/1997
to

pol...@aol.com (Polenth) wrote:

>Hmm... this thread seems to have stopped. Does anyone have any more
>suggestions, or are we going to decide to accept one of the existing one? The
>main ones as I see it as the single G one,

I don't remember all of the coding, but I think this could be made to
work.

Eodrakkens G(b g) where b is
>biological sex, and g gender (using the same categories as the single G one I
>think?),

My only worries are that with the (b g) one, A. the small g might get
confused with the girth category, especially for an undecided drak who
has the same gender and sex (though I suppose the active use of m, f,
and ? would take care of a lot of that) and B. the big G on the
outside doesn't seem to do much except take up space

and my two tag one with X for biological sex and G for gender, with
>slightly different categories to the originally suggested ones.
>

I don't remember exactly what those categories were, but this, too,
sounds fine.

>Anyone got any opinions? We've come this far, it'd be a shame to let the whole
>discussion die before a discision is reached.
>

OK, so I guess my opinion is...undecided. Some help I am. <wrygrin>

>Polenth

Dester'edra, poor decision-maker

Polenth

unread,
22 Dec 1997, 03:00:0022/12/1997
to

Ok, for those that don't remember, here are the full suggestions, with my
opinions on them.

The single G tag (Wyrm):

>Gm Male
>Gf Female
>Gn Neuter
>Ga Androgyne (neither male or female)

>Gh Hermaphrodite (both male and female)

>Gv Variable
>Gu Unknown
>
>G<gender> For genders unspecified above.
>

>Gnm Neutered Male
>Gnf Neutered Female
>Gmf Male/Female alternation.
>Gfm Female/Male alternation.

>Gm>f Male changing (or hoping to change) to Female.
>Gf>m Female changing (or hoping to change) to Male.
>
>Androgyne and Hermaphrodite technically mean the same thing, however
>whereas hermaphrodites display both male and female characteristics,
>androgynes don't.
>


The end bit is according to Wyrm's dictionary, which isn't the same as the
generally accepted scientific/pychological meanings where androgynous is
phychological, and hemaphrodite physical. I don't really like the definitions
used above. Either way, I think a single letter tag would have to be designated
as either gender or biological sex. Most likely Biological sex would be best,
as that was what was originally the thing creatures were hoping to describe.
Though this tag would be workable, I prefer the next two suggestion that take
gender into account.

******
Split in G tag (Eodrakken):

>I don't think anybody saw my suggestion. I suggested a split in
>the G code, like the division between dragon and human age.
>
>Gg -- gender
>Gb -- biological sex
>
>Therefore, a being like me, who is physically female and mentally
>undecided, would be:
>
>G(bf gu)
>
>'Kay? Everybody see it this time?

This seems ok, but I'm not too happy with all of the letter codes in Wyrms
original summary as I said above. I believe this would take up more space than
the next suggestion, but as I'm not one who worries too much about the length
of my code, I'll leave it to someone who is to give a length opinion.

****
two tags suggestion (Polenth):


I won't say too much about this, as I came up with it, so I'm probably bias.
From looking at it, I think a G and X with an gender/sex not covered written
out after it would also be needed.

***
gender before species (marada):

>'I've one more.... why no' put the gender *before* the species where it will
>not be mistaken for anything else.'
>DC.mD=Male Dragon
>DC.fD=Dragoness
>DC.?D=A drak with gender issues [doesn't know]
><other letters suggested before would be similar, but I forgot them>
>DC.D=Dragon of unstated Gender.
>

I think it may cause some confusion, as some creatures use different layouts
for the species tag to the ones on the dragon code page. Maybe they shouldn't,
but they do, and it includes listed two species after each other. f is a fish,
and ? is a shapeshifter. Also, don't discount the possibility that oneday there
may be the need for a species to be little letter, big letter for some reason.
I think that this tag would restrict the expansion of the species tag in the
future, as the gender part would always have to be worked around. I say a
deffinate no vote from me on this idea.

Insectfoil

unread,
23 Dec 1997, 03:00:0023/12/1997
to

Polenth wrote:
>Ok, for those that don't remember, here are the full suggestions, with my
>opinions on them.

I believe I will give my opinions as well (since it's good to
have as much variety as possible).

>
>The single G tag (Wyrm):
>
>>Gm Male
>>Gf Female
>>Gn Neuter
>>Ga Androgyne (neither male or female)
>>Gh Hermaphrodite (both male and female)
>>Gv Variable
>>Gu Unknown
>>
>>G<gender> For genders unspecified above.
>>
>>Gnm Neutered Male
>>Gnf Neutered Female
>>Gmf Male/Female alternation.
>>Gfm Female/Male alternation.
>>Gm>f Male changing (or hoping to change) to Female.
>>Gf>m Female changing (or hoping to change) to Male.
>>
>>Androgyne and Hermaphrodite technically mean the same thing, however
>>whereas hermaphrodites display both male and female characteristics,
>>androgynes don't.
>

<snip of Polenth's comments>

Whatever is decided, I'm quite sure that a simple tag such as that
would be nowhere near adequate. If only gender issues were
that simple:)

>
>******
>Split in G tag (Eodrakken):
>
>>I don't think anybody saw my suggestion. I suggested a split in
>>the G code, like the division between dragon and human age.
>>
>>Gg -- gender
>>Gb -- biological sex
>>
>>Therefore, a being like me, who is physically female and mentally
>>undecided, would be:
>>
>>G(bf gu)
>>
>>'Kay? Everybody see it this time?
>

<snip of Polenth's comments>

I understand the complaint about my suggestion taking up too
much space. However, it does have the advantage of being
reasonably simple, in that it is really only one code, not two like
Polenth suggests:

<snip>

That sounds good to me, in that it's very clear and highlights the
difference between sex and gender. My instinct would be to go
against two tags where one would do, however.

>
>***
>gender before species (marada):
>
>>'I've one more.... why no' put the gender *before* the species where it will
>>not be mistaken for anything else.'
>>DC.mD=Male Dragon
>>DC.fD=Dragoness
>>DC.?D=A drak with gender issues [doesn't know]
>><other letters suggested before would be similar, but I forgot them>
>>DC.D=Dragon of unstated Gender.
>>
>

<snip>

This is way too confusing, and I see no need to put gender in the
species code anyway. It really does need its own tag.

So, anyway, I'd go for either Polenth's suggestion, or my own.
Wyrm's is too simple, and Marada's is too confusing. So there's
my two cents:)

Wyrm

unread,
23 Dec 1997, 03:00:0023/12/1997
to

Greetings.

pol...@aol.com (Polenth) spake thus:


>Ok, for those that don't remember, here are the full suggestions, with my
>opinions on them.

>The single G tag (Wyrm):

This one must be OK!!!

>******
>Split in G tag (Eodrakken):

This takes up too much space and is inherently confusing.

>****
>two tags suggestion (Polenth):

This is a better alternative promoting simplicity and obfuscation.

>***
>gender before species (marada):

This is a bad idea. What would one recognise as DC.m
Would this be a male, or a creature specified by m. Eventually there is
going to be a creature that abbreviates to one of the gender codes. No,
this is definitely not a good idea.

Basically, we have, as far as I am concerned, two choices. Either a single
Gender Tag which comprises both physical and mental aspects, or two Tags,
one for each.

Wyrm.

Rasha

unread,
23 Dec 1997, 03:00:0023/12/1997
to

On Tue, 23 Dec 1997, Wyrm wrote:
> Greetings.
>
"Greetings back at ya, Wyrm!" <grin> *bigscaryWyrmhuggles*

> >The single G tag (Wyrm):
> This one must be OK!!!
>

"100% Wyrm approved." >;=8)

> >******
> >Split in G tag (Eodrakken):
> This takes up too much space and is inherently confusing.
> >****
> >two tags suggestion (Polenth):
> This is a better alternative promoting simplicity and obfuscation.
>

"Promoting simplicity and difficulty in seeing?" <blink> "I'm not sure I'm
understanding obfuscation right in this context."

> >***
> >gender before species (marada):
> This is a bad idea. What would one recognise as DC.m
>

"I would have to agree; the whole reason for the DC:D where D can =
whatever is to give the code room to expand, for whatever creatures want
to use it, but using the gender code there would give it a built-in
limitation, and be confusing to boot."

> Basically, we have, as far as I am concerned, two choices. Either a single
> Gender Tag which comprises both physical and mental aspects, or two Tags,
> one for each.
> Wyrm.
>

"Personally I prefer the single tag, for both aspects. Perhaps if another
annotation were added--u for uninterested, maybe. That would work for
me--hrm, now I don't remember exactly how it goes, but I think it would be
G (for gender) f (because I'm female) /I (for immature?) ~u (for
uninterested). Which would show that I'm an underage female who really
doesn't care what gender she is, since it doesn't matter to her yet."
<grin> "Also, mating status aside the ~u could indicate unavailable, for
those occasional draks who come in looking for a mate and maybe don't read
as far into the code as perhaps they should." >;=8)

-- Rasha the Rather Young Dragon

Galadh

unread,
23 Dec 1997, 03:00:0023/12/1997
to

Down echoing caverns I heard Wyrm write:

>Greetings.
>
>pol...@aol.com (Polenth) spake thus:
>>Ok, for those that don't remember, here are the full suggestions,

<snippette>

>>The single G tag (Wyrm):

<snippette>
Ahh, simplicity, good but really does need some extras, so would not
be my first choice.


>>******
>>Split in G tag (Eodrakken):

<snippettey>
Must agree about the confustication of it, so again not a first
choice.


>>****
>>two tags suggestion (Polenth):
>
>This is a better alternative promoting simplicity and obfuscation.
>

Ooh, simple _and_ obfustication; actually I found it a nice method, so
this one gets my (normally totally ignored) vote (as a newbie going
through the code, this seems to be *in keeping* the most)


>>***
>>gender before species (marada):

<snippedabitagain>
OK I know some say that gender _is_ more important than other
considerations ;=8) but I agree that it could lead to confusion with
what a being is completely.


>
>Basically, we have, as far as I am concerned, two choices. Either a single
>Gender Tag which comprises both physical and mental aspects, or two Tags,
>one for each.

<anothersnippety>
My vote goes for Polenth's two Tag idea, giving as it does an all
round ability to sum up what a being is, and also to confussle just as
bad as the rest of the code does ;=8D

Anyway, that's my farthing's worth (can't be worth more, I only just
got here)

Have Fun.


Cyber T and Biccies
Anydragon? /
/(
( / \
)) __/\ \
__ (( _______/@ ^^\ (_
/ /\ ) /o ) /
\/ > >====---' ) /(
\_/ `----¬ \ / \
\_____/ `-¬ ) \
\ \ \
\ ) \

Galadh S'Itha n'N'Tharl o'Dvis kel Seth A'Haa'iin

Dragon Code;
DC.D f+ S+ h++ CB a $- m d++ WL++* Fr--- L BF e g i- u

jah...@knoware.nl

unread,
23 Dec 1997, 03:00:0023/12/1997
to

pol...@aol.com (Polenth) wrote:

> Hmm... this thread seems to have stopped. Does anyone have any more
> suggestions, or are we going to decide to accept one of the existing one?

Or maybe everywyrm went away for Xmas?

> The
> main ones as I see it as the single G one, Eodrakkens G(b g) where b is


> biological sex, and g gender (using the same categories as the single G one I

> think?), and my two tag one with X for biological sex and G for gender, with


> slightly different categories to the originally suggested ones.

> Anyone got any opinions? We've come this far, it'd be a shame to let the whole


> discussion die before a discision is reached.

Personally i favor Polenth's suggestion.
I wonder though if the G=gender tag might not be confused with the
g=girth tag, especially with those using caps or under case only. And
worse, don't use blanks to separate the individual tags.
(For instance: dc.dfs-h+cra$+wl++*l+b-e+gxf, what might this be? A
female (both sex and gender), or just a `normal girth' female?)
Unless you specify that the G and X tags immediately follow the
DC.whatever bit, you'll keep having this problem.

(Does "dysphoric" mean something like Xm Gf and Xf Gm? I couldn't find
it in my dictionary. (Methinks i need a new, better one.) Nor in Agent's
spell checker.)

> Polenth
> Clan Stormcrest
>
> DC.D CDP a- d+++ WL+* L14f Balkali f e! m-
> My weyr is at: http://members.aol.com/polenth/weyr.htm
> Owner of 'Herbal Concoctions' and 'The Forest Inn'

--
"If everything is possible, it must be possible that something is impossible."
Jan Dijkman (typist to Gelgisith) jah...@knoware.nl
DC.H Xm f--- df+++ h+ CLF:Bg a31 $ m- d L6'3"=1m91 Bgarlic e? i-!

Polenth

unread,
24 Dec 1997, 03:00:0024/12/1997
to

>Personally i favor Polenth's suggestion.
>I wonder though if the G=gender tag might not be confused with the
>g=girth tag, especially with those using caps or under case only. And
>worse, don't use blanks to separate the individual tags.
>(For instance: dc.dfs-h+cra$+wl++*l+b-e+gxf, what might this be? A
>female (both sex and gender), or just a `normal girth' female?)
>Unless you specify that the G and X tags immediately follow the
>DC.whatever bit, you'll keep having this problem.
>

I'm not so sure of that argument. After all anyone who does use all upper/lower
case, or miss out spaces would have problems with interpratation elsewhere. The
solution to that is for them to use the code as it was written, because in many
cases the upper/lower case already means something different. For example, if
they used dc.f it would mean they were a fish, but what they really meant was
DC.F, that they are a fox. A creature who does this is already going to have to
explain that their code doesn't mean what it's taken to be.

Also I wasn't meaning for the format GXf to be used in my suggestion. They are
two totally seperate tags. A feminine female would have to write Gf Xf under my
suggestion. However, she may well just decide to put Xf, as she doesn't have a
gender different to what society expects, to save space. It's up to the
individual. G with a letter following is nothing like the girth as it has the -
+ system, not qualatitive letters.

>(Does "dysphoric" mean something like Xm Gf and Xf Gm? I couldn't find
>it in my dictionary. (Methinks i need a new, better one.) Nor in Agent's
>spell checker.)
>

As far as I know, it means someone who isn't the gender society would expect
for their sex.

Polenth
Clan Stormcrest

DC.D CDP a- d+++ WL+* L14f Balkali f e! m-

This post's guest address of one of my relatives homepages is...
http://members.aol.com/dang7jvn/index.html

Polenth

unread,
24 Dec 1997, 03:00:0024/12/1997
to

In article <Pine.SUN.3.96.97122...@viking.cris.com>, Rasha
<Ra...@cris.com> writes:

>> This is a better alternative promoting simplicity and obfuscation.
>>

>"Promoting simplicity and difficulty in seeing?" <blink> "I'm not sure I'm
>understanding obfuscation right in this context."

He may have meant it makes it both simple and confusing. It may be that he
meant it in the sense of obscurity, as in including things that are often
hidden from view, and often missed. Or that it makes is stupid.... etc...
Obfusication is a great word, it does just that:)

>"Personally I prefer the single tag, for both aspects. Perhaps if another
>annotation were added--u for uninterested, maybe. That would work for
>me--hrm, now I don't remember exactly how it goes, but I think it would be
>G (for gender) f (because I'm female) /I (for immature?) ~u (for
>uninterested). Which would show that I'm an underage female who really
>doesn't care what gender she is, since it doesn't matter to her yet."
><grin> "Also, mating status aside the ~u could indicate unavailable, for
>those occasional draks who come in looking for a mate and maybe don't read
>as far into the code as perhaps they should." >;=8)

Age comes elsewhere in the code. I think it risks duplication if age is also
part of the gender tag. The age system is based on maturity, so if you said you
were a hatchling or child age there it would be obvious you weren't mature.

An uniterested tag may be an idea, but as all the tags gaining support so far
use u as unknown/unsure another letter might be an idea. Uninterested could be
put with u as it would mean that gender is unknown. It's just that there is a
different reason why it is unknown than someone who doesn't know because they
can't work it out. If we delve too far into the reasons why someone doesn't
know their gender it risks making lots of extra tags.

My view is that there are somethings you just have to ask creatures. I think
that reasons for knowing/not knowing gender may be one of them, due to the fact
I think they'd be a very large number of letters, and reasons for such things
can often be quite complex.

Cerulean

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24 Dec 1997, 03:00:0024/12/1997
to

Okay, I want to reiterate some points before they're forgotten, and
add a few more.

We should not use question marks in the sex/gender code at all. Not
only do they conflict with existing codes in certain schemes and
scenarios, but it is unclear whether "?" would be interpreted as a
lack of known sex/gender or the ability to change sex/gender. Instead,

u = unknown/unsure
v = variable
should be sufficient for these.

Most of us will have it easy, and only need one letter. But for
others, it could get messy if a clear solution isn't found. I have a
number of things to say about the gender-dysphoria codes and the
conversations surrounding them.

First of all, I must admit I have never heard this concrete distiction
of definition before of gender=mental and sex=physical. I looked up
"sex" in my dictionary and it is explicitly defined as both.

Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language:
sex: 1. either of the two divisions of organisms distinguished as
male and female. 2. the character of being male or female. 3. the
attraction between the sexes. 4. sexual intercourse.

I suspect a more prestigious dictionary will say much the same.

"Gender," on the other hand, surprisingly only had one definition in
this edition, the gender of words in languages. It seems that "gender"
only came to replace "sex" when the word "sex" became too concentrated
on definition 4 in people's preception. And when people use "gender"
to mean "sex" nowadays, they usually still apply it to both defintions
1 and 2 of "sex".

I am sure you will tell me that the distinction of gender=mental and
sex=physical is delineated in psychological or medical texts, but my
point is that these separate definitions are probably not well-known.
Therefore, two codes G and X are sure to confuse the scales off some
people, and it would have to be slowly explained over and over again.

Here are my suggestions instead, each with the example of the code for
a female-mind male-body. This is actually a progression toward a
solution, so don't take Suggestions 1 and 2 too seriously. 3 is
better.

Suggestion 1.
Gftm
"t" stands for the familiar cliche "trapped in the body of a". This
space-saver will not get people confused about which is which because
it reads as a noun phrase from left to right, and we've all heard the
words so many times.

Suggestion 2.
GMfPm
M=Mental
P=Physical
The clarity of this is dependent upon the code being CASE-SENSITIVE. M
is mental, and m is male. I believe M and P are the best letter
choice. B is out because it could stand for Body or Brain.

Suggestion 3.
GfPm
This contracts Suggestion 2, based on the concept that the first is
who you really are anyway. It reads "female, physically male." It's
much like Suggestion 1 but doesn't sound as bad. It can also be seen
as equivalent to the two-tags idea: "Gender: female, Physical sex:
male." It can also be written "Gfpm" without confusion. This is the
idea that I think will work best.

Cerulean

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24 Dec 1997, 03:00:0024/12/1997
to

pol...@aol.com (Polenth) wrote:

>I'm not so sure of that argument. After all anyone who does use all upper/lower
>case, or miss out spaces would have problems with interpratation elsewhere. The
>solution to that is for them to use the code as it was written

I agree; every keyboard has a shift key, I don't understand why some
people refuse to utilize it. Even if you can't be bothered to
capitalize sentences while writing, you can at least use the shift key
once in your lifetime while putting a case-sensitive code in your
signature.

Insectfoil

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24 Dec 1997, 03:00:0024/12/1997
to

Cerulean wrote:
>Suggestion 3.
>GfPm
>This contracts Suggestion 2, based on the concept that the first is
>who you really are anyway. It reads "female, physically male." It's
>much like Suggestion 1 but doesn't sound as bad. It can also be seen
>as equivalent to the two-tags idea: "Gender: female, Physical sex:
>male." It can also be written "Gfpm" without confusion. This is the
>idea that I think will work best.

This sounds pretty good, I'd go along with it. However, my
suggestion, which was similar to this, seems to have been voted
out, so I don't know how far it'll get. (It's also similar to Polenth's
two-tag idea, but it doesn't include that big 'X', which is a nasty-
sounding letter to me.) So here is one vote for Cerulean's
suggestion.


---Eodrakken Trypnotk Quicksilver---

DC.D f s++ h-- CMolivegreen a $ m d++ WL++*

nugator

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24 Dec 1997, 03:00:0024/12/1997
to

pol...@aol.com (Polenth) wrote:

>>Personally i favor Polenth's suggestion.
>>I wonder though if the G=gender tag might not be confused with the
>>g=girth tag, especially with those using caps or under case only. And
>>worse, don't use blanks to separate the individual tags.
>>(For instance: dc.dfs-h+cra$+wl++*l+b-e+gxf, what might this be? A
>>female (both sex and gender), or just a `normal girth' female?)
>>Unless you specify that the G and X tags immediately follow the
>>DC.whatever bit, you'll keep having this problem.
>>

>I'm not so sure of that argument. After all anyone who does use all upper/lower


>case, or miss out spaces would have problems with interpratation elsewhere. The

>solution to that is for them to use the code as it was written, because in many
>cases the upper/lower case already means something different. For example, if
>they used dc.f it would mean they were a fish, but what they really meant was
>DC.F, that they are a fox. A creature who does this is already going to have to
>explain that their code doesn't mean what it's taken to be.

>Also I wasn't meaning for the format GXf to be used in my suggestion. They are
>two totally seperate tags. A feminine female would have to write Gf Xf under my
>suggestion. However, she may well just decide to put Xf, as she doesn't have a
>gender different to what society expects, to save space. It's up to the
>individual. G with a letter following is nothing like the girth as it has the -
>+ system, not qualatitive letters.

Just to simplify matters a tad, though, would it make sense for the
code page to suggest (not order, mind you) that the G tag be used only
by those whoe physical and mental genders are different, since X is
much harder to confuse? This would also save space for those
room-deficient souls who happen to fit into a single gender in both
respects.

>>(Does "dysphoric" mean something like Xm Gf and Xf Gm? I couldn't find
>>it in my dictionary. (Methinks i need a new, better one.) Nor in Agent's
>>spell checker.)
>>

>As far as I know, it means someone who isn't the gender society would expect
>for their sex.

>Polenth
>Clan Stormcrest

Dester'edra, who's just happy that we can be as calmly accepting of
these differences...


----
Dester'edra Cloudancer of Amoraegrarum Somniare,
DC.Df*s+h+a$--(d)WL++*Fr---l.83'g-e+mCLB>aqua:V^DSwTiridescentBmusic
"Blessed are they that can laugh at themselves,
for they will never cease to be amused."
drac...@mindspring.com (please, no unsolicited advertisements)


Wyrm

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24 Dec 1997, 03:00:0024/12/1997
to

Greetings.

kpe...@earthlink.net (Cerulean) spake thus:


>pol...@aol.com (Polenth) wrote:
>>I'm not so sure of that argument. After all anyone who does use all
> upper/lower
>>case, or miss out spaces would have problems with interpratation elsewhere.
> The

>>solution to that is for them to use the code as it was written
>I agree; every keyboard has a shift key, I don't understand why some
>people refuse to utilize it. Even if you can't be bothered to
>capitalize sentences while writing, you can at least use the shift key
>once in your lifetime while putting a case-sensitive code in your
>signature.

The Dragon Code is case sensitive. Thus there is no problem with G and g.

Wyrm

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24 Dec 1997, 03:00:0024/12/1997
to

Greetings.

pol...@aol.com (Polenth) spake thus:


>In article <Pine.SUN.3.96.97122...@viking.cris.com>, Rasha
><Ra...@cris.com> writes:
>>> This is a better alternative promoting simplicity and obfuscation.
>>"Promoting simplicity and difficulty in seeing?" <blink> "I'm not sure I'm
>>understanding obfuscation right in this context."
>He may have meant it makes it both simple and confusing. It may be that he
>meant it in the sense of obscurity, as in including things that are often
>hidden from view, and often missed. Or that it makes is stupid.... etc...

>Obfustication is a great word, it does just that:)

Indeed it does! :8)

It looks like your two-tag approach is going to win the day Polenth.
Therefore, can you post a comprehensive list of options for it.
No, no, you don't have to do it now, after Christmas will do! :8)

Wyrm

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24 Dec 1997, 03:00:0024/12/1997
to

Greetings.

insec...@aol.com (Insectfoil) spake thus:


>Cerulean wrote:
>>This contracts Suggestion 2, based on the concept that the first is
>>who you really are anyway. It reads "female, physically male." It's
>>much like Suggestion 1 but doesn't sound as bad. It can also be seen
>>as equivalent to the two-tags idea: "Gender: female, Physical sex:
>>male." It can also be written "Gfpm" without confusion. This is the
>>idea that I think will work best.
>This sounds pretty good, I'd go along with it. However, my
>suggestion, which was similar to this, seems to have been voted
>out, so I don't know how far it'll get. (It's also similar to Polenth's
>two-tag idea, but it doesn't include that big 'X', which is a nasty-
>sounding letter to me.) So here is one vote for Cerulean's
>suggestion.

Unfortunately, it doesn't contract suggestion 2 completely. It makes it
imperative that you put the whole code rather than leaving out one or the
other. If you left out the G or the X it would tell others that one does
not want to show that or that aspect or that one is not concerned about it.
If you leave out the pm from Gfpm it will be assumed that one is definitely
female which will not be correct as one may like to convey that it does not
matter what ones physical sex was.
As to X being a nasty letter, well that's simple, just change it to
something else before it is set in stone.

Wyrm

unread,
24 Dec 1997, 03:00:0024/12/1997
to

Greetings.

drac...@mindspring.com spake thus:


>Just to simplify matters a tad, though, would it make sense for the
>code page to suggest (not order, mind you) that the G tag be used only
>by those whoe physical and mental genders are different, since X is
>much harder to confuse? This would also save space for those
>room-deficient souls who happen to fit into a single gender in both
>respects.

No. As I've stated in another post, by leaving out the X or the G tag, one
conveys that one does not wish to say what that aspect is, or that it
doesn't matter, or that one is not concerned.

Insectfoil

unread,
24 Dec 1997, 03:00:0024/12/1997
to

Wyrm wrote:
>It looks like your two-tag approach is going to win the day Polenth.
>Therefore, can you post a comprehensive list of options for it.
>No, no, you don't have to do it now, after Christmas will do! :8)

Just please, change that letter to something other than X! I'll
never forgive myself if I let that go by when I could have
changed it. Could we please make it P, for physical, like
Cerulean suggested?

Polenth

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24 Dec 1997, 03:00:0024/12/1997
to

Wyrm wrote:

>It looks like your two-tag approach is going to win the day Polenth.
>Therefore, can you post a comprehensive list of options for it.
>No, no, you don't have to do it now, after Christmas will do! :8)

I'v got nothing better to do while waiting for Father Christmas to come, so
I'll do it now. In defference to those who dislike X, I'll use P, which seems
like a reasonable alternative. I was hoping someone would suggest an
alternative as I wasn't too fond of X, but I couldn't think of an alternative.
My reason for not likeing X that much is that non-mammals tend to have
different shaped chromosomes, but I digress. This is pretty much the same as
before...

For Gender (mental gender)...

Gf - feminine
Gm - masculine
Ga - androgynous
Gu - unknown/unsure
Gv - variable

G<gender> - where <gender> represents a gender, not in the code, written out.


Gm>f - masculine individual striving to acheive becoming feminine. (letters
replacable as appropriate)

for Biological sex...

Pm - male
Pf - female
Pn - neuter
Ph - hemaphrodite (one who is truely both male and female -potential to produce


both male and female gametes)

Pp - psedo-hemaphrodite (one who has some characteristics of both male and


female, but is not fully hemaphrodite eg feminising testicular syndrome)

Pv - variable (with the sexes varied between in brackets if they want to


state between what), so Xv(mf) - varies between male and female.

Pu - unknown
Pf>m - female turning into a male. (letters replacable)
P<sex> where <sex> represents a biological sex, not in the code, written out.

Cerulean

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26 Dec 1997, 03:00:0026/12/1997
to

laur...@wyrm.demon.co.uk (Wyrm) wrote:

>Unfortunately, it doesn't contract suggestion 2 completely. It makes it
>imperative that you put the whole code rather than leaving out one or the
>other. If you left out the G or the X it would tell others that one does
>not want to show that or that aspect or that one is not concerned about it.

>If you leave out the pm from Gfpm it will be assumed that one is definitely
>female which will not be correct as one may like to convey that it does not
>matter what ones physical sex was.

Let us say that a certain hypothetical dragon is Gfpm, but does not
want anyone to know she is pm and/or doesn't think it's important. It
logically follows that she would want everyone to treat her as female.
Hance Gf would suffice, just as for any other female. I certainly
don't feel it's necessary for me to make clear whether my wings and
scales are mental or physical.
If someone really feels the need to make the distinction that there is
something he/she isn't telling, "u" is still available for all
configurations. I think it is quite acceptable to lump "undisclosed"
along with "unknown".

>As to X being a nasty letter, well that's simple, just change it to
>something else before it is set in stone.

Well, I've just done that, haven't I.

Rasha

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26 Dec 1997, 03:00:0026/12/1997
to

On Wed, 24 Dec 1997, Wyrm wrote:
> Greetings.
> drac...@mindspring.com spake thus:
> >Just to simplify matters a tad, though, would it make sense for the
> >code page to suggest (not order, mind you) that the G tag be used only
> >by those whoe physical and mental genders are different, since X is
> >much harder to confuse? This would also save space for those
> >room-deficient souls who happen to fit into a single gender in both
> >respects.
> No. As I've stated in another post, by leaving out the X or the G tag, one
> conveys that one does not wish to say what that aspect is, or that it
> doesn't matter, or that one is not concerned.
> Wyrm.
>
"Which means I'd be one of the few who would be leaving it out," Rasha
says with a grin.

-- Rasha, Too Young To Care Much...
______________________________________ ~~~~
Rasha the Really Real Dragon (TM) / ~~~
...and Erin Lynn (typist) / \\ ~~
/ \\____ ~~
"Sometimes you kick, / </E <O\___~
sometimes you get kicked..." \ </ @\
-- Michael Hutchence, INXS \ </ (_______/
\_</ /
DC:D f++ s++ h++ CR^K a- $ m- d+++ i \ /
WL++* L<14>f BF e++ g-- u+ Fr++^(?) / /
Ra...@concentric.spamless.net /


Sunstorm and GHOST

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26 Dec 1997, 03:00:0026/12/1997
to

On Wed, 24 Dec 1997, Cerulean wrote:

> Suggestion 3.
> GfPm


> This contracts Suggestion 2, based on the concept that the first is
> who you really are anyway. It reads "female, physically male." It's
> much like Suggestion 1 but doesn't sound as bad. It can also be seen
> as equivalent to the two-tags idea: "Gender: female, Physical sex:
> male." It can also be written "Gfpm" without confusion. This is the
> idea that I think will work best.

I like it, It differentiates between Gender and Sexuality without too many
additional letters and spaces. It also is more intuitive than the G X
entry Polenth suggested though that would be my second choice. Also, if
your mental and physical sexual attributes were the same, you would only
have to add Gm for example as a male male.


> --
> ___vvz /( Cerulean=Kevin Pease DC.D/? fs+h+ CB^P a$m++d+++l*WL++*g-e!i
> <__,` Z / ( Art! > http://home.earthlink.net/~kpease/cerulean/index.html
> `~~~) )Z) ( FDDmp4adwsA+++$C*D>+HM-P-R+T+++WZ?Sm# RLAac++dwd+e++i+p--sm#
> / (7 ( swepV-- sassa)u!Jd snoua^eJ woJj sJa+suow 7nj!+neaq 6u!n)saJ
>

Ken, typist for:
---Sunstorm Solarflame, Guardian
---GHOST Dreamweaver, Dream Cleric

****************************((__|__))*********************************
* ksja...@xmission.com { \ / } Sunstorm (and GHOST) *
* Ken Jackson ) *|* ( DIGI's SON's *
* Returned to the net ( | ) *
* and ready to KNOW.... ) | ( Not all Dragons are as *
* Knowledge is POWER! { | } they seem.... *
******************************* V ************************************
Ken: DC.H f+ s-- df++++ h-- CF:B a $ m++ d+ WL^+ Fr^^+++ L^ BW? e?
Gm g i-! U--
Sunstorm: DC.D? f+/light s++ h++ CT-HY a $ m- d+++ WL++* Fr^+ L150m*
GnPm BP/lazer e! g-- i-! U++
GHOST: DC.D f? s++ h++ CTQ a $ m- d+++ WL++* Fr^+ L150m* BEsleep e+++!
Gm g-- i--- U++
(check out http://www.ecis.com/~ddragon/dragoncode.html to translate)

Paul Gilham

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27 Dec 1997, 03:00:0027/12/1997
to

Quoth pol...@aol.com (Polenth):

>Wyrm wrote:
>>It looks like your two-tag approach is going to win the day Polenth.
>>Therefore, can you post a comprehensive list of options for it.
>>No, no, you don't have to do it now, after Christmas will do! :8)
>I'v got nothing better to do while waiting for Father Christmas to come, so
>I'll do it now.

*G* "I hope the wait was worth it, Polenth!"

>In defference to those who dislike X, I'll use P, which seems
>like a reasonable alternative.

"And 'P' stands for ...?"

>I was hoping someone would suggest an alternative as I wasn't too fond
>of X, but I couldn't think of an alternative.

"Right, fair enough." }:=8)

>My reason for not likeing X that much is that non-mammals tend to have
>different shaped chromosomes, but I digress.

"Seems a fair enough reason to me. I'm not sure which of us here
count themselves as mammalian, which as reptilian and which as a
different order entirely."

>This is pretty much the same as before...

[no snip, since others may have missed Polenth's post]

>For Gender (mental gender)...
>Gf - feminine
>Gm - masculine
>Ga - androgynous
>Gu - unknown/unsure
>Gv - variable
>G<gender> - where <gender> represents a gender, not in the code, written out.
>Gm>f - masculine individual striving to acheive becoming feminine. (letters
>replacable as appropriate)

Okay. Those seem fairly comprehensive.

>for Biological sex...
>Pm - male
>Pf - female
>Pn - neuter
>Ph - hemaphrodite (one who is truely both male and female -potential
> to produce both male and female gametes)

*nod*

>Pp - psedo-hemaphrodite (one who has some characteristics of both male
> and female, but is not fully hemaphrodite eg feminising testicular
> syndrome)
>Pv - variable (with the sexes varied between in brackets if they want to
> state between what), so Xv(mf) - varies between male and female.
>Pu - unknown
>Pf>m - female turning into a male. (letters replacable)
>P<sex> where <sex> represents a biological sex, not in the code, written
> out.

"Okay, those all seem reasonable enough to me. I'm a little
disappointed the need to cater for those of more obscure genders means
we'll need both codes in the sig -- with regard to 'attitude', I would
favour a 'don't care' tag rather than omitting the whole section to
mean this. It strikes me that far more of us will be certain of our
genders than uncaring.

"Still, I seem to recall a similar suggestion being rejected, so I
lend my support to the rest of Polenth's code. I'd just like a better
letter than 'P', please." }:=8)
___________________________________________________________
\^\^//
,^ ( ..) ~~ Samurai ~~ , now with a revamped siggie!
| \ \ DC.D f+s+h--CK^K a $-m-d++WL++Fr^L12m BW e+g--i--!
\ `^--^
\ \ \ & Paul, typist, who requests you remove the fish to reply
ksj ^--^ ___________________________________________________________

Cerulean

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28 Dec 1997, 03:00:0028/12/1997
to

I have only one problem with Polenth's final code, and I have a
possible solution for it that may be a bit surprising.

Proposal: A being whose G (mental gender) and P (physical sex) codes
are identical may combine them into one: S (sex). For instance, I may
write Sm instead of GmPm.

The word "sex," as I have noted before, does mean both the sex of
one's body and the sex of one's character. ("Character" here meaning
one's psychological attitude and having nothing to do with fiction,
games, or typography).

--
Cerulean / ,,c`u!eJq Jnoh jo a)a!d e s!y+ s!,,


Greffindel

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29 Dec 1997, 03:00:0029/12/1997
to

In article <Pine.SUN.3.96.97122...@viking.cris.com>
the wise Rasha (Ra...@cris.com) quoth thus:

>On Wed, 24 Dec 1997, Wyrm wrote:
>> Greetings.
>> drac...@mindspring.com spake thus:
>> >Just to simplify matters a tad, though, would it make sense for the
>> >code page to suggest (not order, mind you) that the G tag be used only
>> >by those whoe physical and mental genders are different, since X is
>> >much harder to confuse? This would also save space for those
>> >room-deficient souls who happen to fit into a single gender in both
>> >respects.

>> No. As I've stated in another post, by leaving out the X or the G tag, one
>> conveys that one does not wish to say what that aspect is, or that it
>> doesn't matter, or that one is not concerned.
>> Wyrm.

>"Which means I'd be one of the few who would be leaving it out," Rasha
>says with a grin.

>-- Rasha, Too Young To Care Much...

Greffindel looks at his own signature with alarm. "Holy... I've
missed them all out..."

--Greffindel the Plaid.
lmth.nogard\dnefispi~\ude.snaku.cc.elgae\\:ptth :etisbew ym tisiV
lmth.renrocyrteop\yrteop\dnefispi~\... :ta yrteoP
*please don't send me adverts, chain mail, or Internet Marketing Opportunities*

Greffindel

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29 Dec 1997, 03:00:0029/12/1997
to

In article <34a446ff...@news.force9.net>
the wise Paul Gilham (Pa...@Samurai.force9trout.net) quoth thus:

>Quoth pol...@aol.com (Polenth):
>>Wyrm wrote:
>>>It looks like your two-tag approach is going to win the day Polenth.
>>>Therefore, can you post a comprehensive list of options for it.
>>>No, no, you don't have to do it now, after Christmas will do! :8)
>>I'v got nothing better to do while waiting for Father Christmas to come, so
>>I'll do it now.

>*G* "I hope the wait was worth it, Polenth!"

>>In defference to those who dislike X, I'll use P, which seems
>>like a reasonable alternative.

>"And 'P' stands for ...?"

Polenth? Pizza? Pneumocyst? Phylum? Portal? Praline? :)

>>I was hoping someone would suggest an alternative as I wasn't too fond
>>of X, but I couldn't think of an alternative.

>"Right, fair enough." }:=8)

[ .. ]


>[no snip, since others may have missed Polenth's post]

>>For Gender (mental gender)...
>>Gf - feminine
>>Gm - masculine
>>Ga - androgynous
>>Gu - unknown/unsure
>>Gv - variable
>>G<gender> - where <gender> represents a gender, not in the code, written out.
>>Gm>f - masculine individual striving to acheive becoming feminine. (letters
>>replacable as appropriate)

>>for Biological sex...

>>Pm - male
>>Pf - female
>>Pn - neuter
>>Ph - hemaphrodite (one who is truely both male and female -potential
>> to produce both male and female gametes)

>>Pp - psedo-hemaphrodite (one who has some characteristics of both male
>> and female, but is not fully hemaphrodite eg feminising testicular
>> syndrome)
>>Pv - variable (with the sexes varied between in brackets if they want to
>> state between what), so Xv(mf) - varies between male and female.
>>Pu - unknown
>>Pf>m - female turning into a male. (letters replacable)
>>P<sex> where <sex> represents a biological sex, not in the code, written
>> out.

By gumbo, life sure is complicated...

> ___________________________________________________________
> \^\^//
>,^ ( ..) ~~ Samurai ~~ , now with a revamped siggie!
> | \ \ DC.D f+s+h--CK^K a $-m-d++WL++Fr^L12m BW e+g--i--!
> \ `^--^
> \ \ \ & Paul, typist, who requests you remove the fish to reply
>ksj ^--^ ___________________________________________________________

--Greffindel the Plaid.

Wyrm

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29 Dec 1997, 03:00:0029/12/1997
to

Greetings.

kpe...@earthlink.net (Cerulean) spake thus:


>I have only one problem with Polenth's final code, and I have a
>possible solution for it that may be a bit surprising.
>Proposal: A being whose G (mental gender) and P (physical sex) codes
>are identical may combine them into one: S (sex). For instance, I may
>write Sm instead of GmPm.

The trouble with this is that it will further complicate the code, and will
draw more attention to the gender codes than they deserve.

Logically, if one is physically male, and wants to be treated as a male,
and wants to save space, one can simply put Pm or Gm. It will indicate only
one sex and everyone will have to conclude that one is male and should be
treated as a male.

All parts of the Dragon Code are optional, thus if one really wants to save
space, one should choose only the tags that are most important. The code
will grow over time until it will be impossible to put everything on an 80
character line no matter what. It has already grown over that for me!

Wyrm

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29 Dec 1997, 03:00:0029/12/1997
to

Greetings.

kpe...@earthlink.net (Cerulean) spake thus:


>laur...@wyrm.demon.co.uk (Wyrm) wrote:
>>If you leave out the pm from Gfpm it will be assumed that one is definitely
>>female which will not be correct as one may like to convey that it does not
>>matter what ones physical sex was.
>Let us say that a certain hypothetical dragon is Gfpm, but does not
>want anyone to know she is pm and/or doesn't think it's important. It
>logically follows that she would want everyone to treat her as female.
>Hance Gf would suffice, just as for any other female. I certainly
>don't feel it's necessary for me to make clear whether my wings and
>scales are mental or physical.

That would also be the case for Gx Px as well. A Gf on its own will
indicate that everyone should treat the creature as a female. Besides,
putting just Pm in the code is shorter than Gpm, and this suggestion does
not take into account other possible genders to be written out in full or
added later.
Finally, it does not save any space in reality. Given that the code does
not need spaces between it, Polenth's GfPm is the same as your Gfpm.

>If someone really feels the need to make the distinction that there is
>something he/she isn't telling, "u" is still available for all
>configurations. I think it is quite acceptable to lump "undisclosed"
>along with "unknown".

u should mean unknown or uncertain and nothing else. The standard for the
Dragon Code is to leave out anything that one does not want to disclose.

Polenth

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30 Dec 1997, 03:00:0030/12/1997
to

In article <6873nm$df6$6...@raven.cc.ukans.edu>, ipsi...@eagle.cc.ukans.edu
(Greffindel) writes:

>>"And 'P' stands for ...?"
>
>Polenth? Pizza? Pneumocyst? Phylum? Portal? Praline? :)

I think you'll find it stands for physical or something similar (maybe even
Possums). Though it would be novel to name a gender code letter after pralines,
I somehow think that Cerulean didn't choose the letter for that reason:)
Pneumocyst seems a likely candidate though.

Polenth
Clan Stormcrest

DC.D CDP a- d+++ WL+* L14f Balkali f e! m-

Cerulean

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30 Dec 1997, 03:00:0030/12/1997
to

laur...@wyrm.demon.co.uk (Wyrm) wrote:

>Given that the code does
>not need spaces between it, Polenth's GfPm is the same as your Gfpm.

I did say that already, you know. I pointed out this convergence of
concepts in my post, which is why Polenth adopted P instead of X in
the first place.

>>If someone really feels the need to make the distinction that there is
>>something he/she isn't telling, "u" is still available for all
>>configurations. I think it is quite acceptable to lump "undisclosed"
>>along with "unknown".

>u should mean unknown or uncertain and nothing else. The standard for the
>Dragon Code is to leave out anything that one does not want to disclose.

Conceded. I only said this because I was trying to retain the
simplicity of Gm or Gf for those of us who wish to say we are entirely
one sex mind and body. Instead, see my "S" suggestion elsewhere in
this thread.

Cerulean

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30 Dec 1997, 03:00:0030/12/1997
to

laur...@wyrm.demon.co.uk (Wyrm) wrote:

>kpe...@earthlink.net (Cerulean) spake thus:
>>I have only one problem with Polenth's final code, and I have a
>>possible solution for it that may be a bit surprising.
>>Proposal: A being whose G (mental gender) and P (physical sex) codes
>>are identical may combine them into one: S (sex). For instance, I may
>>write Sm instead of GmPm.

>The trouble with this is that it will further complicate the code, and will
>draw more attention to the gender codes than they deserve.

>Logically, if one is physically male, and wants to be treated as a male,
>and wants to save space, one can simply put Pm or Gm. It will indicate only
>one sex and everyone will have to conclude that one is male and should be
>treated as a male.

Gee, when you quote my own logic back at me, I guess I have to concede
to it. S was a tentative experiment anyway. Agreed.

Okay, cut it and print it, people, that would appear to be a wrap.

>All parts of the Dragon Code are optional, thus if one really wants to save
>space, one should choose only the tags that are most important. The code
>will grow over time until it will be impossible to put everything on an 80
>character line no matter what. It has already grown over that for me!

Yeah, time for me to edit down my sig. WL*++ will be the first to go;
I'm polymorphic for piet's sake. And the "RL" half of my furrycode.

Cerulean, off to the website to find out what this new U tag that I
keep seeing is

Paul Gilham

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1 Jan 1998, 03:00:0001/01/1998
to

Quoth pol...@aol.com (Polenth):

>ipsi...@eagle.cc.ukans.edu (Greffindel) writes:
>>>"And 'P' stands for ...?"

>>Polenth? Pizza? Pneumocyst? Phylum? Portal? Praline? :)

"I'll take praline, please."

*munchmunch*

"Mmm, not bad -- thanks Greff!"

>I think you'll find it stands for physical or something similar

"Ah, that makes a bit more sense."

>(maybe even Possums).

"Eww, no. I've had some bad experiences with possums."

>Though it would be novel to name a gender code letter after pralines,

"They're tasty enough!"

>I somehow think that Cerulean didn't choose the letter for that
>reason:)

*G*

>Pneumocyst seems a likely candidate though.

"Is that like a pneumatocyst? Some of the folks round here might have
them, but I don't see that's got a lot to do with gender!" };=8)

Polenth

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2 Jan 1998, 03:00:0002/01/1998
to

In article <34abb214...@news.force9.net>, Pa...@Samurai.force9salmon.net
(Paul Gilham) writes:

>>Pneumocyst seems a likely candidate though.
>
>"Is that like a pneumatocyst? Some of the folks round here might have
>them, but I don't see that's got a lot to do with gender!" };=8)

It's got more to do with gender than pralines. I did have another thought
though... maybe it means Pinocytosis? Or Petatus? (neither of which have much
to do with gender, but are my favourite words beginning with p:))

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