Stanley Kubric's film
JB
> I have read, although I cannot remember the name of the work to cite
> it, that the meaning "man of the woods" for _orangutan_ does not exist
> in any current language. Presumably, this is the result of changes in
> Malay which have taken place since the 17th century adoption of the
> word _orangutan_ into English.
A Web search produces many sites written in Bahasa containing orang
without utan, utan without orang, and orang utan unhyphenated and
unconjoined. --JB
Roberta Davies
>
> I have read, although I cannot remember the name of the work to cite
> it, that the meaning "man of the woods" for _orangutan_ does not exist
> in any current language. Presumably, this is the result of changes in
> Malay which have taken place since the 17th century adoption of the
> word _orangutan_ into English.
I recently read somewhere (probably the Telegraph) that, like so
many other words for exotic animals, "orangutan" is not quite
right as a translation. "Orang otang", or something similar,
means "man of the woods"; "orang utan" means "man in debt".
Any Malaysian readers want to correct this?
Other exotic animal names that shouldn't exist are:
"kangaroo" = "I don't know [what you mean]"
When Cook pointed to the strange creature and asked the nearest
Aborigine "What do you call that?", the Aborigine had no idea
what Cook was saying and replied "kan'guru".
"indri" = "look!"
A native guide leading a European expedition in Madagascar
pointed up a tree to a big lemur and said "Indri!"
Does anyone know any other such gaffes?
Robbie
meirm...@erols.com
<roberta...@virgin.net> posted:
>mpl...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>> I have read, although I cannot remember the name of the work to cite
>> it, that the meaning "man of the woods" for _orangutan_ does not exist
>> in any current language. Presumably, this is the result of changes in
>> Malay which have taken place since the 17th century adoption of the
>> word _orangutan_ into English.
>
>I recently read somewhere (probably the Telegraph) that, like so
>many other words for exotic animals, "orangutan" is not quite
>right as a translation. "Orang otang", or something similar,
>means "man of the woods"; "orang utan" means "man in debt".
This is only a theory of the Malaysian Loan Corporation.
>
>Any Malaysian readers want to correct this?
>
>Other exotic animal names that shouldn't exist are:
>
>"kangaroo" = "I don't know [what you mean]"
>When Cook pointed to the strange creature and asked the nearest
>Aborigine "What do you call that?", the Aborigine had no idea
>what Cook was saying and replied "kan'guru".
>
>"indri" = "look!"
>A native guide leading a European expedition in Madagascar
>pointed up a tree to a big lemur and said "Indri!"
This only intrigues if I know that in Indri is a lemur and I didn't
know that until now. Thanks
>
>Does anyone know any other such gaffes?
I get this story mixed up. But I'll try. In modern Hebrew, sometime
after 1492, the American Turkey somehow got called hodu which means
India. It was thought to be a bird described in the Bible which might
live in India. The word for India is the same or similar. This has
something to do with the West Indies and the East Indies.
Of course even in English it somehow got called turkey, and IIR that
story is just as confused.
>
>Robbie
mei...@QQQerols.com
e-mail by removing QQQ
mpl...@my-deja.com
Go to this URL
http://www.linguistlist.org/issues/7/7-174.html
to see how the name for _turkey_ in several languages is related in
some way to India.
Also, if you speak French, check this URL
http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/efts/ARTFL/projects/dicos/
After doing searches for _coq,_ _poulet,_ _dinde,_ and _dindon,_ you
will see that it would be difficult for a Frenchman to look at the
entries in the Dictionnaire de l'Académie Française for 1694, 1798, and
1835 without thinking that the turkey came from India. A tom turkey was
called a _coq d'Inde_ or _dindon,_ a turkey hen was called a _poulet
d'Inde_ or _dinde._
I wonder if current French dictionaries tend to give the origin of the
bird. The Merriam-Webster Collegiate dictionaries, and the American
Heritage Dictionary, both indicate the origin of the bird and how it
came to have the name _turkey_: from confusion with the guinea fowl,
which came from Turkish territory.
--
Raymond S. Wise
"The biochemistry of the world is straight out of a Bill Gates
fantasy--there's only one operating system for everything."
Joel Achenbach
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
hmelton0
news:3A0F0B6A...@virgin.net...
> mpl...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > I have read, although I cannot remember the name of the work to
cite
> > it, that the meaning "man of the woods" for _orangutan_ does not
exist
> > in any current language. Presumably, this is the result of changes
in
> > Malay which have taken place since the 17th century adoption of
the
> > word _orangutan_ into English.
>
> I recently read somewhere (probably the Telegraph) that, like so
> many other words for exotic animals, "orangutan" is not quite
> right as a translation. "Orang otang", or something similar,
> means "man of the woods"; "orang utan" means "man in debt".
>
>
> Other exotic animal names that shouldn't exist are:
>
> "kangaroo" = "I don't know [what you mean]"
> When Cook pointed to the strange creature and asked the nearest
> Aborigine "What do you call that?", the Aborigine had no idea
> what Cook was saying and replied "kan'guru".
Very good story :), but the OED is not so sure. See below:
kangaroo, n.
[Stated to have been the name in a native Australian lang.
Cook and Banks believed it to be the name given to the animal by
the natives at Endeavour River, Queensland, and there is later
affirmation of its use elsewhere. On the other hand, there are express
statements to the contrary (see quots. below), showing that the word,
if ever current in this sense, was merely local, or had become
obsolete. The common assertion that it really means 'I don't
understand' (the supposed reply of the native to his questioner) seems
to be of recent origin and lacks confirmation. (See Morris Austral
English s.v.)
1770 Cook Jrnl. (1893) 224 (Morris) (Aug. 4) The animals which I
have before mentioned, called by the Natives Kangooroo or Kanguru.
1770 J. Banks Jrnl. (1896) 301 (Aug. 26) The largest [quadruped] was
called by the natives kangooroo. 1787 Anderson in Cook's Voy. (1790)
IV. 1295 We found, that the animal called kangooroo, at Endeavour
River, was known under the same name here [in Tasmania]. 1792 J.
Hunter Port Jackson (1793) 54 The animal+called the kangaroo (but by
the natives patagorong) we found in great numbers. 1793 W. Tench
Compl. Acc. Port Jackson 171 The large, or grey kanguroo, to which the
natives [of Port Jackson] give the name of Pat-ag-a-ran. Note,
Kanguroo was a name unknown to them for any animal, until we
introduced it. 1834 Threlkeld Austral. Gram. (Hunter's River) 87
(Morris) Kóng-go-róng, the Emu+likely the origin of the barbarism,
kangaroo, used by the English, as the name of an animal called
Mo-a-ne. 1835 T. B. Wilson Narr. Voy. World 211 (ibid.) They [natives
of the Darling Range, W.A.] distinctly pronounced 'kangaroo' without
having heard any of us utter the sound. 1850 Jrnl. Ind. Archipelago
IV. 188 (Kangaroo.) It is very remarkable that this word, supposed to
be Australian, is not to be found as the name of this singular
marsupial animal in any language of Australia+I have this on the
authority of my friend Captain King.]
Harry M
>
> Robbie
mpl...@my-deja.com
mpl...@my-deja.com wrote:
[snip]
>
> Go to this URL
>
> http://www.linguistlist.org/issues/7/7-174.html
>
> to see how the name for _turkey_ in several languages is related in
> some way to India.
>
> Also, if you speak French, check this URL
>
> http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/efts/ARTFL/projects/dicos/
>
> After doing searches for _coq,_ _poulet,_ _dinde,_ and _dindon,_ you
> will see that it would be difficult for a Frenchman to look at the
> entries in the Dictionnaire de l'Académie Française for 1694, 1798,
and
> 1835 without thinking that the turkey came from India. A tom turkey
was
> called a _coq d'Inde_ or _dindon,_ a turkey hen was called a _poulet
> d'Inde_ or _dinde._
>
> I wonder if current French dictionaries tend to give the origin of the
> bird. The Merriam-Webster Collegiate dictionaries, and the American
> Heritage Dictionary, both indicate the origin of the bird and how it
> came to have the name _turkey_: from confusion with the guinea fowl,
> which came from Turkish territory.
>
Well, I did some research to answer my own question. I checked out some
French dictionaries at the University of Minnesota in Minneapolis. It's
difficult to compare dictionaries, but I'll use page-count as a rough
guide. My Merriam-Webster Collegiate has 1532 pages and the third
edition of The American Heritage Dictionary has 2140 pages.
The _Dictionnaire universel francophone,_ Hachette, © 1997, 1554 pages,
under the entry for _dindon_ ("tom turkey"), mentions in the definition
that the bird originated in North America. It does not have an
etymology for the word.
The _Lexis: dictionnaire de la langue française,_ Librairie Larousse, ©
1975, 1950 pages, also says that the _dindon_ originated in North
America, and it also has an etymology for _dinde_ ("turkey hen"), in
which it says that it is an abbreviation for _poule d'Inde_ ("chicken
from India").
The _Dictionnaire historique de la langue française,_ Dictionnaires le
Robert, © 1992, is a two volume dictionary--not one likely to be owned
by the average Frenchman or Frenchwoman.[1] The turkey became confused
with the guinea fowl when it was known as a "poule d'Inde." This is
what they have to say about this early designation for the guinea fowl:
[quote]
(1380, _poulle d'Ynde_)[....]
[E]lles [ces dénominations] servaient à désigner la pintade [....] Le
syntagme calque le latin médiéval _gallina de India_ (XIIIe s.) dans le
quel _India_ désignait l'Abyssinie, où la pintade vivait à l'état
sauvage.
[end quote]
[translation]
(1380, _poulle d'Ynde_ ["chicken of India"]. This and similar
expressions were used for the guinea fowl. The phrase _poule d'Inde_
was a loan translation of the Medieval Latin _gallina de India_ (13th
c.) in which _India_ designated Abyssynia, where the guinea fowl lived
in the wild.
[end translation]
Note:
[1]Yeah, I know. The average American is not going to have the third or
fourth edition of The American Heritage Dictionary, either. But if they
want to, they can consult them on the Internet: www.dictionary.com for
the third edition, www.bartleby.com for the fourth edition. (I don't
know if the whole thing is on www.bartleby.com, though.)
Wes Groleau
> Does anyone know any other such gaffes?
It's not an animal, and it might not even be true,
but it's certainly typical of English linguistic
ignorance/arrogance:
My brother-in-law is descended from a group
of Palatine Germans who settled in central New
York in the 1700s. According to legend, some
Englishmen came upon some of them picking up
rocks to clear a field, and asked them for the
name of the place. The farmers thought they
heard, "What are you doing?" and answered
"Stein abgraben." (Stupid Englishman, what
does it look like we're doing?) And the village
has been Stone Arabia ever since.
--
Wes Groleau
http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~wgroleau
meirm...@erols.com
<wwg...@ftw.rsc.raytheon.com> posted:
>
>> Does anyone know any other such gaffes?
>
>It's not an animal, and it might not even be true,
>but it's certainly typical of English linguistic
>ignorance/arrogance:
>
> My brother-in-law is descended from a group
>of Palatine Germans who settled in central New
>York in the 1700s. According to legend, some
>Englishmen came upon some of them picking up
>rocks to clear a field, and asked them for the
>name of the place. The farmers thought they
>heard, "What are you doing?" and answered
>"Stein abgraben." (Stupid Englishman, what
>does it look like we're doing?)
I ask questions like this, and I had a girlfriend that just hated it.
She got me thinking and although I don't know about this Englishman,
but I realized that I did it because, If you start if with a difficult
question, a stranger won't like it. If you start with an easy
question, he'll answer you and it the start of a conversation. A
couple minutes later you can ask that same hard question and he'll put
some effort into answering it.
For me this usually happens when I'm watching repairmen or utility
crews and I'm curious what all they have to do.
>And the village
>has been Stone Arabia ever since.
mei...@QQQerols.com If you email me only, please say, so I won't
e-mail by removing QQQ wait forever for a post and then forget to
answer the email at all. If you post &
mail, please say, so I will wait for the post.