DC generator vs DC Converter
JoeSixPack
efficiency of using an AC generator to charge the batteries through the 12V
converter vs. using some sort of gasoline-powered DC generator, such as a
gas engine-driven automotive alternator? How much efficiency do you lose by
using the AC? The converter is all solid state 45 amp, regulated, and has a
15 amp breaker behind the battery-charging circuit. All equipment is less
than 2 years old.
Steve Spence
health. Most dc chargers don't either.
for dc charging you need something similar to:
http://www.amplepower.com/products/sarv3/index.html
for ac charging you need something similar to:
either will do a good job. if you have some non-inverter ac loads, an ac
charger will be a better bet. if everything you have can run on the
inverter, then dc is a good deal.
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
Ulysses
"JoeSixPack" <ol...@telus.net> wrote in message
news:9D74f.13803$y_1.2650@edtnps89...
your batteries. I also suspect it will go well over 14.5 volts when the
batteries are fully charged.
I am charging four 220 Ah batteries using a Honda eu2000 generator and a
Vector 40 amp Smart Charger. The charger is fully regulated and 3-stage.
However, I am working on a engine-driving-an-alternator generator and I use
it (still in the process of configuring it for best functionality and
portability, weather resistance, etc) to drive a MSW inverter which in turns
powers the Vector charger. My last Honda eu2000 lasted around 12,000 hours
but when the engine finally wore out I discovered it was unrepairable (well,
$800 to fix it and a new one was $900). The alternator I have is driven by
a Honda 4 HP engine. I now have the option of using many different engines,
alternators, and inverters for future repairs or upgrades. The most
expensive component is the engine and they are currently selling for about
$150 new. With a good 85 Ah 12 volt battery and the 65 amp alternator it
will supply at least (tested so far) around 1300 watts for a limited time.
It will supply over 800 watts for extended times. It has plenty of power
for other AC appliances while charging the batteries. The fuel consumption
is approximately the same as for the Honda generator. The engine is running
at only about 2000 rpm so I expect a long life and some extension on oil
changes. As far as effeciency goes I am looking at the long term repair
costs as part of the equation. Ease of repair is also a definate
consideration. If you try to use an alternator to directly charge your
batteries it will be difficult to regulate the current and voltage. With my
Vector charger I don't have to worry about them and they will likely last
much longer than with other types of battery chargers.
My next step will be to try and get the engine/alternator contraption to run
from wood gas.
Steve Spence
> "JoeSixPack" <ol...@telus.net> wrote in message
> news:9D74f.13803$y_1.2650@edtnps89...
>
>>Charging 4 T-105s that run a 2000W Go-Power puresine inverter. What's the
>>efficiency of using an AC generator to charge the batteries through the
>
> 12V
>
>>converter vs. using some sort of gasoline-powered DC generator, such as a
>>gas engine-driven automotive alternator? How much efficiency do you lose
>
> by
>
>>using the AC? The converter is all solid state 45 amp, regulated, and has
>
> a
>
>>15 amp breaker behind the battery-charging circuit. All equipment is less
>>than 2 years old.
>>
>>
>
> As Steve Spence pointed out the converter will not do a good job of charging
> your batteries. I also suspect it will go well over 14.5 volts when the
> batteries are fully charged.
>
> I am charging four 220 Ah batteries using a Honda eu2000 generator and a
> Vector 40 amp Smart Charger. The charger is fully regulated and 3-stage.
> If you try to use an alternator to directly charge your
> batteries it will be difficult to regulate the current and voltage. With my
> Vector charger I don't have to worry about them and they will likely last
> much longer than with other types of battery chargers.
>
>
>
I forgot to mention that I have 6 T105's powering a AC Delco 2500 watt
inverter. I use a schumacher 40amp 3 stage charger from Walmart, very
similar to the Vector. This system powers my house.
Loren Amelang
wrote:
Other posts didn't directly address the efficiency question. I'd say
it all depends on the relative sizes of your generators, chargers, and
battery banks, and whether they are your only charging source or you
have solar as well.
In my system, both DC (truck alternator on Honda engine) and AC (Dual
switching chargers running from 5KW Onan) sources can usually run
flat-out and stay within the acceptance range of my battery bank. When
the batteries are so close to full that that is no longer true, I just
let the solar finish the job (the generators are only for extended
low-sun emergencies).
My take on efficiency is that even running two "75 Amp" AC to DC
chargers doesn't use but a small fraction of the Onan's output, and
the old Onan is not very efficient (or happy) at low power draws.
Unless I need lots of AC for other uses, using the Honda saves fuel
dollars. And considering another kind of efficiency, it wears out a
$300 machine rather than a $3000 machine.
If you don't have significant solar capability and need to fully
charge your batteries with a generator, or your battery bank can't
accept the full output of your generator even when discharged, the
problem of the load decreasing to very low levels gets even worse. If
I had to deal with that I'd look into one of the new
inverter-generators where the engine can slow to idle at very low
power draws.
Loren
Rob
news:11l2c8s...@corp.supernews.com:
>
If
> you try to use an alternator to directly charge your batteries it will
> be difficult to regulate the current and voltage. With my Vector
> charger I don't have to worry about them and they will likely last
> much longer than with other types of battery chargers.
>
I'm still trying to figure this all out. I have an almost identical 4hp
engine driving an 80 amp alt, charging two t605's while the batts run a
msw inverter. My thoughts were that the internal regulater of the alt
would handle the current and voltage regulation. I see the extra benifits
of running an inverter to charger to batt set up, but the third stage of
battery charging is a long slow process (correct me if I'm wrong) and as
such, a fairly fuel consuming process on a gas generator. Would it not be
more economical to use the 12v generator to charge the batts up to say 80%
(bulk charge)then let them run down to say 50% before recharging?
I relize the importance of topping up the batts to 100% (between uses) I'm
refering to my not too often power outages. It seems to me that putting
all 80(?) amps for a while into the batts, then shutting down when the amps
drop to 2 or 3 would work? (BTW with a 4" pully on the engine, its not too
far off idle to put out 65 amps (65amps best I ever got )).
I do hook up to a 3 stage charger when the grid returns.
Rob..........
Robert Morein
Ripple current will kill a battery.
An engine driven alternator has too much ripple to float a battery, while
maintaining the life expectancy.
You could use it to put in the bulk portion of the charge.
George Ghio
He also forgot to mention the bloody great diesel generator. Steve is
being a bit misleading here.
If you have a charger and a generator use it.
If you use a motor/alternator combination you have two choices;
1) A good charge regulator to control it or
2) Learn to control it manually.
As an aside the T105's are not a great choice for the job.
Vaughn
"George Ghio" <A...@nomailhere.com> wrote in message
news:43518...@news.chariot.net.au...
>
> If you use a motor/alternator combination you have two choices;
>
> 1) A good charge regulator to control it
westmarine.com will be happy to sell you a variety of three stage
regulators for alternators. Be prepared to spend about $200.00.
Vaughn
JoeSixPack
"Steve Spence" <ssp...@green-trust.org> wrote in message
news:rIc4f.24102$Ge5....@fe10.lga...
> Ulysses wrote:
>> "JoeSixPack" <ol...@telus.net> wrote in message
>> news:9D74f.13803$y_1.2650@edtnps89...
>>
>>>Charging 4 T-105s that run a 2000W Go-Power puresine inverter. What's the
>>>efficiency of using an AC generator to charge the batteries through the
>>
>> 12V
>>
>>>converter vs. using some sort of gasoline-powered DC generator, such as a
>>>gas engine-driven automotive alternator? How much efficiency do you lose
>>
>> by
>>
>>>using the AC? The converter is all solid state 45 amp, regulated, and
>>>has
>>
>> a
>>
>>>15 amp breaker behind the battery-charging circuit. All equipment is
>>>less
>>>than 2 years old.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> As Steve Spence pointed out the converter will not do a good job of
>> charging
>> your batteries. I also suspect it will go well over 14.5 volts when the
>> batteries are fully charged.
It's been holding battery voltage very steady at 13.8 for several weeks now.
I hope this converter will maintain the batteries in good condition until
they go back into service with the PV array in the spring.
At that time, I'm undecided whether to invest in a quiet inverter-generator
to run for long periods to supplement the P.V. array, or to get an
gas-engine driven alternator to charge them more quickly for shorter
periods. I could live with 75% overall efficiency running an AC generator
thru a converter to charge the batteries, but if it's lower than that, I'd
look more seriously at running a gas powered alternator to charge the
batteries directly.
>>
>> I am charging four 220 Ah batteries using a Honda eu2000 generator and a
>> Vector 40 amp Smart Charger. The charger is fully regulated and 3-stage.
>
>> If you try to use an alternator to directly charge your
>> batteries it will be difficult to regulate the current and voltage.
What's wrong with the internal regulator in the alternator? It seems to keep
car batteries well-charged for years at a time.
>>With my
>> Vector charger I don't have to worry about them and they will likely last
>> much longer than with other types of battery chargers.
>>
> I forgot to mention that I have 6 T105's powering a AC Delco 2500 watt
> inverter. I use a schumacher 40amp 3 stage charger from Walmart, very
> similar to the Vector. This system powers my house.
>
I also have the option of plugging in a solid state battery charger which
has a setting for deep-cycle batteries. I don't see the need to use it, as
I have no reason to believe it would do a better job than the converter is
already doing.
nicks...@ece.villanova.edu
>Ripple current will kill a battery.
Because of the heating effect?
>An engine driven alternator has too much ripple to float a battery...
How much is too much?
Nick
wmbjk
wrote:
>What's wrong with the internal regulator in the alternator? It seems to keep
>car batteries well-charged for years at a time.
A Home Power Magazine article on the subject. Read the paragraph
that's 7th from the bottom.
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001BAG
Wayne
JoeSixPack
"wmbjk" <wmbjk...@citlink.net> wrote in message
news:ijp4l15t1d2aespvn...@4ax.com...
I pasted the paragraph in question for your convenience:
Car Voltage Regulators Car voltage regulators will not work well in deep
cycle applications. The regulator makes its decisions based only on the
system s voltage. This is fine with the average car battery which is cycled
to less than 1% of its capacity before being refilled. However, the deep
cycle battery is almost empty when it is recharged. The car voltage
regulator attempts to instantly bring the system s voltage to 14 15 Volts. A
12 Volt deep cycle lead-acid battery will not reach a voltage of 14 Volts
until it is almost filled. The net result is that the car regulator dumps
the entire output of the alternator into the batteries until they are full.
This is almost always too much energy too fast for a fully discharged
battery. To compound the problem, the car regulator s voltage limit is set
too low for deep cycle service. This low voltage limit means that the
batteries are charged too slowly when they are almost full, resulting in
many extra hours of generator operation to totally fill the battery pack.
Since the car regulator is set at about 14 Volts, we are unable to raise the
system voltage up to over 16 Volts for the essential equalizing charges.
None of those concerns are mine for this application. My intention is to
supplement the charging of the photovoltaics when they can't keep up. This
will mostly happen towards the end of summer before I go on the grid for the
winter. When I run the generator, the batteries will probably start at about
75%, and I want to bring them up to about 95% fairly quickly. A 30-60 amp
charge for a few hours from an alternator shouldn't damage four 225AH
deepcycle batteries, I should think. From there, the photovoltaics can bring
them up to full charge during the day with a 5-15A regulated charge rate. I
am trying to decide whether I need to use an regular AC generator (+solid
state charger) or an automotive alternator for this purpose.
RF Dude
charger is for you.
An AC switch regulated charger efficiency is 87% or better. But your gas
engine is terrible. I was just looking at the input BTU/hr numbers for home
standby gennies (~11 kW) and noticed they are about 17% (full load)
efficient when compared to the input BTU required.
Solar Flare
from fullwave rectified 3 phase is next to nothing.
<nicks...@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:dispfs$l...@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
JoeSixPack
"RF Dude" <po...@thisnewsgroup.com> wrote in message
news:gev4f.199$ns3....@news20.bellglobal.com...
> Why do you need a generator if you have grid? Sounds like the 3-stage AC
> charger is for you.
I go off the grid in the summer. At these northern latitudes, the solar
energy is about 10X greater in June than it is in December. Solar energy
becomes irrelevent about the end of August, and some other power source is
needed.
I tried the 3-stage charger, and it worked well, but the 115-12V converter
seems to be holding the batteries at a constant 13.8 V, and until someone
convinces me there's a better way, I can leave it at that.
>
> An AC switch regulated charger efficiency is 87% or better. But your gas
> engine is terrible. I was just looking at the input BTU/hr numbers for
> home standby gennies (~11 kW) and noticed they are about 17% (full load)
> efficient when compared to the input BTU required.
The efficiency is a concern between the two types of gasoline-powered
chargers. That's my only option in the summer whan I'm off-grid. I don't
want to invest in a gas engine powered alternator if the efficiency of going
from an AC generator thru a charger is nearly as good.
JoeSixPack
"Solar Flare" <sfl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:tbednYjif6qfFs_e...@golden.net...
I don't want to float the battery, I just want a quick charge. The
photovoltaics do the final charge.
RF Dude
Diesels are more efficient converting fuel to energy. Add some wind
generators if you can. They will compensate when the sun isn't shining. If
you get some surplus Programmable Logic Controllers, you can set yourself up
with a "Cycle Charged" energy approach as used in many isolated
communications sites (helicopter access). Without getting specific, I can
tell you there are cycle charged sites in Canada using wind and solar where
the generator rarely ever has to start up. Wind and sun provide all needs
with the rare top up by generator. To make this work, a very large battery
is required so that you can go a few days without worring about low output
from wind or sun. The PLC can shed load if necessary, or convert excess
load to other useful purposes. It can tweak the charge regime to make sure
all resources are running at full efficiency. For instance, the generator
is never used to fully charge the battery... not efficient. But excess
energy from sun or wind can bring the battery to 100%. Etc.
Your 13.8V should be OK for float. You won't get the battery to 100%
efficiently with a generator / charger set to this voltage. Battery float
charging is an exponential curve. It may take a battery a few hours to get
to 90%, but a week to get to 100% capacity on float voltage alone. Not
acceptable for engine charging systems. Thus engines are used to get the
battery to ~90% only. The smart chargers change this scenario somewhat, as
you can keep flowing energy into the battery closer to the desired 100% by
raising the voltage (to 14.4 say). But the trick is to back it off to safe
float voltage before damage (or gassing) results.
RF Dude
Solar Flare
charging.
Sitting on float with charge going in every peak waveform and out between
waveforms 24/7 is most likely the problem with cell wear and tear.
"JoeSixPack" <ol...@telus.net> wrote in message
news:Xrw4f.37639$ir4.21423@edtnps90...
Ulysses
My engine-driven alternator is not a whole lot louder than my Honda eu2000.
Since it is running at reduced rpm the noise is less annoying. I also stuck
an additional muffler (riding lawnmower type, $3 at Home Depot) on it and it
greatly reduces the projected noise.
If I had not already bought the secone eu2000 I would go with the engine,
altenator, battery, and probably a 1500 watt MSW inverter. It should do
just about everything the Honda will do plus it can still supply power (up
to 800 watts) when the engine is off.
It may seem absurd to be using a battery to charge batteries but it works
well and you need some way to stabilize the voltage so the inverter doesn't
shut down from overvoltage (or get fried).
I don't either.
Ulysses
"Rob" <bepr...@here.org> wrote in message
news:zsSdnWye-7n...@rogers.com...
> "Ulysses" <thereal...@yahoo.com> wrote in
> news:11l2c8s...@corp.supernews.com:
>
> >
> If
> > you try to use an alternator to directly charge your batteries it will
> > be difficult to regulate the current and voltage. With my Vector
> > charger I don't have to worry about them and they will likely last
> > much longer than with other types of battery chargers.
> >
>
> I'm still trying to figure this all out. I have an almost identical 4hp
> engine driving an 80 amp alt, charging two t605's while the batts run a
> msw inverter. My thoughts were that the internal regulater of the alt
> would handle the current and voltage regulation.
Well, I don't have an ammeter connected yet and when I tried using the
alternator directly to charge the batteries they did not appear to be
charging. From what I've read the built-in regulator will stop charging the
batteries long before they are done. I doubt that overvoltage would be much
of a problem with the size of battery array you have.
OTOH the built-in regulator seems to do a great job of keeping my 85 Ah
battery charged and easily supplies an 800 watt inverter for extended times.
And, like I said, I can also run another 700 watt inverter which will draw
it's power from the battery, at least for a limited time. I have not
measured how much current the battery is drawing while running under the 800
watt load limit (65 amp alternator's abilities) but the battery voltage
always reads just a little higher than before I started the whole thing up.
Now, if I can ever find out how to use the sine wave inverter in my old,
worn out eu2000...
I see the extra benifits
> of running an inverter to charger to batt set up, but the third stage of
> battery charging is a long slow process (correct me if I'm wrong) and as
> such, a fairly fuel consuming process on a gas generator.
I don't know how many Ah the T605s are but with my 440 Ah at 12 volts if I
used them all night and all the next day and then charge them in the evening
it takes about 4-5 hours to bring them to about 98% charge with the Vector
charger (I never run them down very far though). It starts out at 40 amps
(actually I prefer to start at 20, run it for a couple hours and then
switch to 40 to reduce the load on the engine) so the initial charging is
fairly quick and the final charging stages (once it drops below 20 amps)
complete in an hour or two. With a 4 HP engine we are talking about
approximately 1 gallon of gas to do the job.
Would it not be
> more economical to use the 12v generator to charge the batts up to say 80%
> (bulk charge)then let them run down to say 50% before recharging?
>
> I relize the importance of topping up the batts to 100% (between uses) I'm
> refering to my not too often power outages. It seems to me that putting
> all 80(?) amps for a while into the batts, then shutting down when the
amps
> drop to 2 or 3 would work? (BTW with a 4" pully on the engine, its not
too
> far off idle to put out 65 amps (65amps best I ever got )).
I started out with a 5" pulley and I was able to run my engine a bit slower
and it seemed to be using somewhat less gas but it was an aluminum pulley
and it didn't last very long. The biggest steel pulley I could find was 4".
I suspect that the best size pulley for our purposes is about 4 1/2" to 5".
BTW which way is your alternator turning? I read info in at least 3 places
that indicated that it *should* be turning clockwise as seen from the pulley
end but all of the instructions I found had it going counterclockwise. If
your alternator is turning the wrong way is it possible you may not be
getting your full 80 amps because it's overheating?
JoeSixPack
That's a bit confusing, because it's my understanding that a storage battery
does a fine job of leveling off the peaks and troughs in any circuit
connected to it.
Harry Chickpea
>too low for deep cycle service. This low voltage limit means that the
>batteries are charged too slowly when they are almost full, resulting in
>many extra hours of generator operation to totally fill the battery pack.
>Since the car regulator is set at about 14 Volts, we are unable to raise the
>system voltage up to over 16 Volts for the essential equalizing charges.
Intriguing. For home use of a system, lets figure a 24 hour duty
cycle. That means getting a full float charge on a system is nigh on
impossible and Pb/Acid batteries should be failing right and left.
Would battery life be extended significantly if there were two battery
banks, and there was an additional 24 rest period where each bank
would be float charged on alternate days?
Next question - What if an alternator was used to fast charge a
(third) small "topper" bank of more forgiving batteries -say NiMH-
that were then used to power an inverter/charger to provide the float
charge over that 24 hr period to the Pb/Acid banks? Would that be
practical or cost-effective?
Where I'm going is the idea of a system where an engine/alternator
operates for the peak 2 to 4 hours per day, also supplying hot water
and heat as co-gen, but then the battery/inverter system coasts the
lighting and less energy intensive appliances through the rest of the
day - but (and this is the big but) the system can operate in this
mode indefinitely.
Is something like this feasible?
Solar Flare
voltage and carry the load between peaks of waveforms. This is like charging and
discharging your bank 120 times per second. Much wear and tear on the battery
bank.
"JoeSixPack" <ol...@telus.net> wrote in message
news:o6y4f.38400$ir4.3404@edtnps90...
George Ghio
The danger here is just too much bad advice. Now from your post:
"None of those concerns are mine for this application. My intention is
to supplement the charging of the photovoltaics when they can't keep up."
You can do this. You will need a regulator to control the charge.
You have three choices:
1) The reg built into the alt. Only if you are desperate.
2) A purpose built reg. Better control, better charging.
3) The reg you have between your ears. Works well, runs on full logic
but requires you to stay awake.
I believe you said 4 225Ah batteries. If that is in fact 500Ah all up (4
T105s series/parallel) then a 30 amp alt will be fine, 60A would be
pushing the friendship a bit. C10 would be 50A. But you want to bring
your batteries up faster than ten hours.This means you need a charging
regime to suit your needs.
My charger:
5hp motor, 35A Bosch alt(external reg type, reg not used) Rheostat for
field control. This is the famous 150A rated ceramic Rheostat scrounged
from a spot welder.
Take the state of charge in your batteries. Yes it is important that you
not let them remain at a low state of charge for long periods, on the
other hand they do not need to reach 100% charge every single day
either. I will run the little generator to charge my batteries if they
drop to 12 Volts (but like the fine print says ”Conditions Apply”)
Condition: Batteries read 12 volts at four o’clock in the afternoon
Condition: I know the sun won’t be out tomorrow.
Condition: I need to use the computer for several hours that night.
(This condition has been negated due to better computer.)
Condition: There will be three hours of Red Dwarf on TV that night.
It takes at least two of these conditions to warrant the running of the
generator. It may be that your "required" conditions will be different.
And when it comes to charging the batteries I am not trying to bring
them up to 100%. I am doing what I call ”Maintenance Charging” which is
to say that I only require that they be in the top twenty per cent of
their capacity. The sun usually does the rest.
When required I run the gen for less three hours. This is for a battery
set of 840Ah. During winter this may be as much as 3 hours a week or as
little as 1-2 hours/month.
Will this harm your batteries, only if you're stupid and don't pay
attention to what you are doing.
Oh, I also run a logger on my system so I know what is going on, at all
times.
George
Harry Chickpea
>Condition: There will be three hours of Red Dwarf on TV that night.
Smegging right, but there are only so many episodes. :-)
nicks...@ece.villanova.edu
>...This is like charging and discharging your bank 120 times per second.
>Much wear and tear on the battery bank.
How much is too much?
Nick
Robert Morein
ripple
> from fullwave rectified 3 phase is next to nothing.
>
Robert Morein
<nicks...@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:divk1t$m...@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
power supply.
As Solar Flare remarks, they want it that way with the battery disconnected.
The battery will level it, but at the cost of constant erosion of the
plates.
Ulysses
When using the rheostat what exactly is happening? Are you able to control
both the voltage and current or just the current and shutting down when the
voltage reaches it's peak?
>
> Take the state of charge in your batteries. Yes it is important that you
> not let them remain at a low state of charge for long periods, on the
> other hand they do not need to reach 100% charge every single day
> either. I will run the little generator to charge my batteries if they
> drop to 12 Volts (but like the fine print says ”Conditions Apply”)
This is a very good point concerning effeciency--the batteries do not
necessarily have to reach a 100% charge every day. I do not know how to
tell the difference between, say, a 90% and 100% charge. My hydrometer will
read "full charge" but my Vector charger may still be charging at 5 amps or
so. I would go so far as to say that the hydrometer's reading is probably a
good enough indicator and if it says full then the batteries are adequately
charged. About every few days, however, I do let my Vector run until it
shuts down and says "full."
nicks...@ece.villanova.edu
>> How much is too much?
>>
>The battery manufacturers want perfect DC...
Ah. So 1 microvolt is too much.
Nick
nicks...@ece.villanova.edu
>I have a NATO 2KW 28VDC field generator. The rating is 5% ripple.
Is that too much?
Nick
Bruce in Alaska
hchickpe...@hotmail.com (Harry Chickpea) wrote:
snipped for brevity
> Where I'm going is the idea of a system where an engine/alternator
> operates for the peak 2 to 4 hours per day, also supplying hot water
> and heat as co-gen, but then the battery/inverter system coasts the
> lighting and less energy intensive appliances through the rest of the
> day - but (and this is the big but) the system can operate in this
> mode indefinitely.
>
> Is something like this feasible?
This is basically how I use my system. I have twin 20Kw Gensets
that I run for a totall of 10 hours a day. (7Am to noon, and 5Pm to 10Pm)
That takes care of the main High Power Loadings of Breakfast and Dinner
and the charging of all the battery banks for the twin inverter systems
connected. It also keeps the four freezers at better than -10F on a
24/7 basis, and the telco equipment battery bank charged. I have had
really good luck with both a 1200Amp/hour 24Vdc L16HD bank, as well
as a 800Amp/hour 24Vdc Absolyte II AGM battery bank. These are on
the inverter systems. L16 bank is over 4 years old, and replaced a
800Amp/hour bank that was 12 years old. The Absolyte II bank is 8 years
old now and still has 95% of the new capacity.
Bruce in alaska
--
add a <2> before @
wmbjk
<thereal...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>When using the rheostat what exactly is happening? Are you able to control
>both the voltage and current or just the current and shutting down when the
>voltage reaches it's peak?
The latter. But if you *know* how many Amp-hrs you want to replace and
the charge rate of the generator, then a spring-wound timer can be
used to somewhat automate the process. Ideally the timer would shut
off the field current, and then shut down the engine after a short
delay to allow some unloaded cool-down time. This outfit
http://www.ifg.thomasregister.com/ supplies affordable timers with
custom contact arrangements and delays.
>> Take the state of charge in your batteries. Yes it is important that you
>> not let them remain at a low state of charge for long periods, on the
>> other hand they do not need to reach 100% charge every single day
>> either. I will run the little generator to charge my batteries if they
>> drop to 12 Volts (but like the fine print says ”Conditions Apply”)
>
>This is a very good point concerning effeciency--the batteries do not
>necessarily have to reach a 100% charge every day. I do not know how to
>tell the difference between, say, a 90% and 100% charge. My hydrometer will
>read "full charge" but my Vector charger may still be charging at 5 amps or
>so. I would go so far as to say that the hydrometer's reading is probably a
>good enough indicator and if it says full then the batteries are adequately
>charged. About every few days, however, I do let my Vector run until it
>shuts down and says "full."
You might consider adding a Trimetric, Link 10, etc. It will keep
track of Amps in and out, and automatically take Peukert's equation
into account. Here's a link to the user manual for the Link 10, see
page 40. http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/72/docserve.asp
Wayne
wmbjk
wrote:
>My charger:
>
>5hp motor, 35A Bosch alt(external reg type, reg not used)
Such examples are useful to readers who might be interested in
building a similar setup. But your choice of engine and alternator is
confusing considering your previous claims that a unit with about
twice the Watts per hp was grossly overpowered. Please clarify.
>field control. This is the famous 150A rated ceramic Rheostat scrounged
>from a spot welder.
Anyone who decides to go this route will need to know what size
rheostat to use. Is there some reason you can't simply give the
resistance range of that rheostat, or better yet, the values required
for your alternator's speed and output?
> I will run the little generator to charge my batteries if they
>drop to 12 Volts
That may work well on your setup, but I expect that only a minority of
systems have the predictable extended period without any
charge-discharge that's needed for a useful state-of-charge
measurement by voltage alone. Many, probably most, owners will find it
inconvenient at best to use voltage as a gauge, since it's a near
useless indicator on systems such as those with full-time inverter
loading, those that are powering say, electric refrigeration, or on
hybrid systems with multiple charging sources. It's generally
recommended that such systems are best equipped with a Trimetric or
similar.
Wayne
Steve Spence
>
> What's wrong with the internal regulator in the alternator? It seems to keep
> car batteries well-charged for years at a time.
it's not designed to keep house batteries charged properly for off-grid
applications. deep cycle batteries won't last 7+ years with a automotive
charger regulator. I can drive screws with a hammer, but it's not the
right tool.
>
>
>>>With my
>>>Vector charger I don't have to worry about them and they will likely last
>>>much longer than with other types of battery chargers.
>>>
>>
>>I forgot to mention that I have 6 T105's powering a AC Delco 2500 watt
>>inverter. I use a schumacher 40amp 3 stage charger from Walmart, very
>>similar to the Vector. This system powers my house.
>>
>
>
> I also have the option of plugging in a solid state battery charger which
> has a setting for deep-cycle batteries. I don't see the need to use it, as
> I have no reason to believe it would do a better job than the converter is
> already doing.
if your converter isn't a 3 stage charger, it's reducing the life of
your batteries. if it doesn't have a deep cycle setting, don't use it on
deep cycle batteries.
>
>
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
JoeSixPack
<nicks...@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:dj0e25$n...@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
I don't believe any of it. The generator gives a quick charge for an hour or
two, then the photovoltaics take over with the smoothest charging waveform
you could wish for.
Please don't offer advice if you're just guessing.
Thanks.
Ulysses
Thanks. I'll look into it.
Ulysses
I agree with what you are saying. For me the best indicator of the need to
charge my batteries is experience and familiarity with the particular system
and how much it's used. OTOH I find that with a cheapo MSW inverter it will
start screaming or beeping when it's time to recharge and this is based upon
voltage. Of course the load also has to be considered and the inverter may
start protesting much sooner with more load but may have plenty of reserve
at 10.5 volts. But just sticking a voltmeter on there and trying to use
that as an indicator never worked for me especially if there is a weak cell
and the voltage is always under 12 volts (or whatever) with even the
slightest load.
Steve Spence
He's not guessing, he's giving some folks a bit of rope ....
Loren Amelang
wrote:
>5hp motor, 35A Bosch alt(external reg type, reg not used) Rheostat for
>field control. This is the famous 150A rated ceramic Rheostat scrounged
>from a spot welder.
>
>Take the state of charge in your batteries. Yes it is important that you
>not let them remain at a low state of charge for long periods, on the
>other hand they do not need to reach 100% charge every single day
>either. I will run the little generator to charge my batteries if they
>drop to 12 Volts (but like the fine print says ”Conditions Apply”)
>
>Condition: Batteries read 12 volts at four o’clock in the afternoon
>
>Condition: I know the sun won’t be out tomorrow.
>
>Condition: I need to use the computer for several hours that night.
>(This condition has been negated due to better computer.)
>
>Condition: There will be three hours of Red Dwarf on TV that night.
>
>It takes at least two of these conditions to warrant the running of the
>generator. It may be that your "required" conditions will be different.
>
>And when it comes to charging the batteries I am not trying to bring
>them up to 100%. I am doing what I call ”Maintenance Charging” which is
>to say that I only require that they be in the top twenty per cent of
>their capacity. The sun usually does the rest.
At last some common sense in this thread! I'm not sure where home
power people have collected the ideas that lead-acid batteries are so
fragile. I learned about them from a fork lift guy and from long
experience, and the fact is they are very forgiving.
The main charging guideline is the C-rate, which is given as some
fraction of the amp-hour size of the battery. Bulk charging flooded
batteries at "C/5" is typically considered safe, even in home power
circles. If you have 300 AH of battery, a C/5 rate would be 60 amps,
and (ignoring the significant losses in the charging process) would
take 5 hours from full discharge to full charge.
The reason charging is not that simple is that as the charging voltage
rises, more energy and water is lost to heat and electrolysis, rather
than going into actually charging the battery. For a flooded 12V
battery, there is some point between 14.6 and 15.2 volts where the
proportion of loss begins increasing much more rapidly. The exact
point, and the steepness of the inflection in the graph of loss vs.
voltage, depends on the battery construction and on its current state
of charge.
If you have un-sealed, liquid flooded batteries and don't mind wasting
charging current and replacing lots of water, you can ignore the
electrolysis and worry only about the heating effect. Fork lift people
have no fear of removing the battery caps to allow more venting, and
charging at rates above C/1. For those of us who must make our own
charging current, being more patient is highly recommended for
efficiency. But provided you replace the lost water and avoid reaching
temperatures that physically damage the battery structure,
electrolysis does not harm the battery. (If you have sealed or gelled
batteries, electrolysis becomes a serious problem and must be
avoided.)
So charging is a matter of staying below the electrolysis inflection
point. With a manually controlled charger (like an automotive
alternator controlled by a rheostat) just crank it up until you hear
the batteries start to bubble continuously, and back it off until they
only gurgle occasionally. As the charge increases, it will take less
and less current to reach this point, but about the same voltage. You
will quickly learn how much voltage your particular bank can take, and
how it varies at different states of charge.
If your regulated charger limits voltage to 14 volts, like many
auto-shop boosters and most automotive alternators with built-in
regulation, it is being much too cautious, and will require far more
engine running time than a charger capable of higher voltages. But
eventually it will get the job done - anything that provides more
current than the self-discharge rate of the battery will _eventually_
get it charged.
But this thread began with a question about efficiency, and since
making electricity from carbon fuel in a mechanical heat-engine is by
far the most inefficient part of the charging process, we want to use
that engine at its most efficient point. Typically that is somewhere
near its full rated power, so we want to choose an engine that
provides about the same output as the bulk charge rate our batteries
can accept.
BTW, my last set of L-16s lasted 13 years under this regime, and my
main bank of big 2V cells is still going strong after 18 years.
I don't believe the superstition about charging "ripple" harming
batteries, either. All of my chargers have been totally unfiltered, as
are huge fork lift chargers. In fact, I believe batteries love
disturbances during charging. Consider the anti-sulfation devices that
intentionally provide a pulsed charge current...
My system uses only shunt regulation, in the form of switching a
rather large water pump on and off. When the batteries can no longer
handle the full output of my solar array and their voltage rises above
the electrolysis inflection point, the pump comes on. Mid-day, the
voltage drops to maybe 13V, a nice float charge, but near the end of
the day the pump may actually draw current from the batteries. When
the pump stops (after a fixed time) charging resumes. I believe this
cycling is much better for battery life than a steady, even charge.
Loren
Solar Flare
Nothing to add but interesting points to consider.
"Steve Spence" <ssp...@green-trust.org> wrote in message
news:oYS4f.9718$1X1....@fe12.lga...
Robert Morein
<nicks...@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:dj0duv$n...@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
Robert Morein
<nicks...@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:dj0e25$n...@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
between 5% and 100% charger load. The precision of the charging system
depends upon the expense of the battery bank. For a $10K AGM system of
stationary batteries, which have a 20 year lifetime, it pays to be precise.
Hawker wants the float voltage verified with a 4 digit DVM every six months.
Cheaper batteries receive less precision. Auto batteries, for example, are
charged with plenty of ripple, and overcharged every time they are driven.
nicks...@ece.villanova.edu
>> >The battery manufacturers want perfect DC...
>>
>> Ah. So 1 microvolt is too much.
>>
>For a Hawker Energy Systems Powersafe AGM battery, the spec is ripple < 1%
>between 5% and 100% charger load.
That seems more reasonable, esp. at 100%, which heats the battery more.
But we were concerned about ripple during float charge, no? That might
overheat the battery and shorten its life, above (say) 80 F. How much
ripple can we tolerate at 5% without heating the battery over 80 F in
a 70 F room? Maybe a lot, given I^2R and the low equivalent series R of
a lead-acid battery. Below a 90% state of charge, the coulombic ("round
trip energy") efficiency is close to 100%, so the charging itself (vs
I^2R) makes little heat.
Heating a 1' cube with 6 ft^2 of surface and a 9 Btu/h-F airfilm
conductance 10 F requires 10Fx9Btu/h-F = 90 Btu/h, ie 26 watts of
I^2R dissipation. R = 0.001 ohms would make I = 161 amps...
Nick
George Ghio
All this from a man who can't even define his "claimed" two days
autonomy. And that at a magical reduced load.
Robert Morein
<nicks...@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:dj29jo$o...@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
a low state of charge. At float, for an AGM, there is one obvious reason.
The float voltage is optimally maintained at a very tight value constrained
by the need for minimal electrolysis and avoidance of sulfation. For a
flooded battery, I do not see why ripple is bad.
Vaughn
<nicks...@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:dj29jo$o...@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
>
> But we were concerned about ripple during float charge, no? That might
> overheat the battery and shorten its life, above (say) 80 F. How much
> ripple can we tolerate at 5% without heating the battery over 80 F in
> a 70 F room?
To throw a bit more $hit in the game, there are "pulse" chargers which
claim great benefits over "plain" chargers. That would be the same as a huge
amount of ripple no?
Vaughn
George Ghio
First the gen is made of found objects. The motor, alternator, rheostat,
pullies and steel frame were scrounged from, Well, from all over. The
rheostat has been in my possession for around 20 years. It finally found
a use.
Motor - 5HP Bogged and Stricken - Vanguard. Why? Because it was
available. 3 - 3.5HP works just as well.
Alt - 35A Bosch, external reg type. Reg not used. Why the 35A Bosch?
Because I have around twenty of them.
Rheo - 8.5 ohm ceramic.
Pulley on motor 4 inch. Why 4"? Because I had one.
Pulley on alt 2 inch. Why 2"? Because it was on the alt.
The use of this setup requires that you stay awake and pay attention to
what is going on. This is how I run it:
Start the motor.
Plug in the field to the rheostat. The other side is connected to Batt
positive.
Set rheostat to the minimum resistance.
Check volt meter for volts, this is actually my digital solar regulator
which has data logging and can read what is going in from the alt.
So, as I have stated my batteries will be at 12 volts more or less at 4
o'clock in the afternoon and at least one other condition is met.
I watch the voltage rise, when it hits 15 volts I raise the resistance
on the rheo, the voltage drops, then starts to rise again, when it hits
15 volts I adjust the rheo up again, the voltage drops, then starts to
rise again, when it hits 15 volts I adjust the rheo up again the voltage
drops, then starts to rise again, when it hits 15 volts I adjust the
rheo up again, when the voltage can no longer be affected by increasing
the resistance on the rheo I shut the gen off. The batteries voltage
will then typically drop to around 13.5 volts. If left overnight the
batteries will be 12.8 volts in the morning.
Keep in mind that I am running 30Amps into a 840Ah set of batteries.
Well under the C10 rate for this set of batteries.
This system works very well. The batteries only ever bubble gently
during charge. I top up my batteries with water once a year, three
litres. No discernible heating occurs. No corrosion on the terminals in
the last 4.5 years. In short happy batteries.
Should you do this? I have no idea. It all depends on your ability to
design for your needs. It works for me and many others around here and
beats the shit out of any electric battery charger in use.
You have to drive this type of charger. You have to monitor the
batteries during charging. If you don't you will kill your batteries in
a short time.
Can't find a rheostat? I can send you a drawing for a cheap and nasty
rheo that will work. Just ask.
George L Ghio
Solar Power Consultant
JoeSixPack
"Robert Morein" <now...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:yNmdnQv7xds...@giganews.com...
14.5 V I believe. In colder weather a higher voltage is beneficial. Most
auto batteries retain a voltage of 12.5-13V when parked.
JoeSixPack
"Vaughn" <vaughnsimo...@att.fake.net> wrote in message
news:A945f.153471$qY1....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Put a scope on a solid-state charger and tell me it has no ripple.
wmbjk
wrote:
>Motor - 5HP Bogged and Stricken - Vanguard. Why? Because it was
>available. 3 - 3.5HP works just as well.
Use of your generator as described below indicates an output of
perhaps 100W during finish charging, or about 20W per hp. Why then
have you criticized a 140W per hp generator for being overpowered?
>Rheo - 8.5 ohm ceramic
That's much better than your strange habit of calling it "150 Amp",
although "ceramic" isn't very informative, and you still seem
reluctant to give the total range or say what portion of it is used.
>The use of this setup requires that you stay awake and pay attention to
>what is going on. This is how I run it:
>
>Start the motor.
>
>Plug in the field to the rheostat.
Are switches expensive in your area?
> The other side is connected to Batt
>positive.
>
>Set rheostat to the minimum resistance.
>
>Check volt meter for volts, this is actually my digital solar regulator
>which has data logging and can read what is going in from the alt.
>
>So, as I have stated my batteries will be at 12 volts more or less at 4
>o'clock in the afternoon and at least one other condition is met.
>
>I watch the voltage rise, when it hits 15 volts I raise the resistance
>on the rheo, the voltage drops, then starts to rise again, when it hits
>15 volts I adjust the rheo up again, the voltage drops, then starts to
>rise again, when it hits 15 volts I adjust the rheo up again the voltage
>drops, then starts to rise again, when it hits 15 volts I adjust the
>rheo up again, when the voltage can no longer be affected by increasing
>the resistance on the rheo I shut the gen off. The batteries voltage
>will then typically drop to around 13.5 volts. If left overnight the
>batteries will be 12.8 volts in the morning.
Good grief! Why would anyone want to diddle like that? Previously
you've written that PV fully charges your batteries by noon most days.
So if the generator is only for occasional backup, then why bother
with anything other than a simple single-rate bulk charge to 80% or
so? BTW, isn't your charge controller (with the voltmeter) in a
different location than the generator? Tell me you're not running back
and forth between the two locations in order to save the cost of a
second voltmeter!
Anyway, your descriptions are confusing. Regarding battery charging
goals, previously you wrote: "I only require that they be in the top
twenty per cent of their capacity". Yet above you describe a full
charge. Perhaps you consider your "maintenance charge" to be a
combination backup/equalization?
>Keep in mind that I am running 30Amps into a 840Ah set of batteries.
>Well under the C10 rate for this set of batteries.
>
>This system works very well. The batteries only ever bubble gently
>during charge.
Ah, so it isn't for equalization.
> I top up my batteries with water once a year, three
>litres. No discernible heating occurs. No corrosion on the terminals in
>the last 4.5 years. In short happy batteries.
You may be deceiving yourself. Five years use from twenty-year
batteries is hardly proof of success. If you're not equalizing them
properly then they're likely sulfating. Were you using the same
routine on all the previous batteries that failed?
>Should you do this? I have no idea.
I do... unless one prefers unnecessary difficulty and risk, NO! A
proper battery monitor like an Emeter takes input, output, and
Peukert's equation into account, and displays the results conveniently
full-time. Which makes it painless to decide manual bulk backup
charging time. If normal charging sources alone are insufficient for
equalization, then that process can be started or supplemented with
bulk charging by generator. But generally, low-output engine-driven
charging should be avoided as it's horribly inefficient.
> It all depends on your ability to
>design for your needs.
Exactly what "ability to design" is required for manual charging? As
you've described it, it sounds more like an inability to afford better
equipment, or an unwillingness to adopt a more convenient technique.
> It works for me and many others around here
Fair enough, I've certainly seen worse ideas that work well for their
owners.
>beats the shit out of any electric battery charger in use.
Nonsense. There are some nice stand-alone chargers out there, and at
least a few free control designs available for DIYers. And the
charging systems already built into many inverter/chargers are
automatic and customizable.
>You have to drive this type of charger. You have to monitor the
>batteries during charging. If you don't you will kill your batteries in
>a short time.
Then exactly how does it "beat the shit" out of alternatives that
taper down or shut off automatically to avoid the risk?
>Can't find a rheostat? I can send you a drawing for a cheap and nasty
>rheo that will work. Just ask.
Those who don't want you to have their email address could use this
method instead -
"a nichrome wire heating element from an old electric stove. We
selected more or less wire (hence more or less resistance) with an
alligator clip lead. It worked fine."
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001BAG
Wayne
George Ghio
What about a system outline that has real numbers including all loads,
two days autonomy, with the mythical reduced load.
No, you don't have a clue. I will not discuss this topic with you simply
because you have not exhibited any ability in the so called design of
your own system.
Solar Flare
Between the peaks of voltage charging your battery (with ripple) there is no
charging current available to charge it or carry the load burden connected to
it. This means your battery has to carry the load and is in discharge mode. This
is a lot of charging and discharging current on your battery 120 times per
second.
This shouldn't be a problem if you have no load connected.
"Robert Morein" <now...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:gNqdnc2nf51...@giganews.com...
wmbjk
wrote:
> I will not discuss this topic with you simply
>because you have not exhibited any ability in the so called design of
>your own system.
Darn, I guess I made the questions too hard. And I was so looking
forward to further curious tales of your scuttling between voltmeter
and rheostat. Anyway, it was entertaining to read about the effort
required when foregoing, er, "designing" away the need for a $150
battery monitor, in the same post where you claimed to "know what is
going on, at all times". Still, you're a grinch for withholding from
other readers the inevitable segue between conflicting charge levels
and championship bread kneading. Oh well, perhaps they'll at least
learn from your ah, thriftiness.
Wayne
Tony Wesley
> Poor Wayne, clutching at straws as usual. Want to be taken seriously?
> What about a system outline that has real numbers including all loads,
> two days autonomy, with the mythical reduced load.
>
> No, you don't have a clue. I will not discuss this topic with you simply
> because you have not exhibited any ability in the so called design of
> your own system.
For some reason, Monty Python and The Search for the Holy Grail come to
mind.
Sir Robin, to be specific. "...and bravely he did run away..."
wmbjk
wrote:
You're on the right track, George was the inspiration for the Black
Knight skit. :-) http://www.mwscomp.com/movies/grail/grail-04.htm
Wayne
George Ghio
for dust.
He started running when I asked him to explain the numbers on his web
site and hasn't stopped running when ever he gets out of his depth.
nicks...@ece.villanova.edu
>Between the peaks of voltage charging your battery (with ripple) there is no
>charging current available to charge it or carry the load burden connected to
>it. This means your battery has to carry the load and is in discharge mode.
>This is a lot of charging and discharging current on your battery 120 times
>per second.
How does that hurt the battery? Does this all come down to heating?
Nick
BB
wrote:
>Tony Wesley wrote:
>> George Ghio wrote:
>>
>>>Poor Wayne, clutching at straws as usual. Want to be taken seriously?
>>>What about a system outline that has real numbers including all loads,
>>>two days autonomy, with the mythical reduced load.
>>>
>>>No, you don't have a clue. I will not discuss this topic with you simply
>>>because you have not exhibited any ability in the so called design of
>>>your own system.
>> For some reason, Monty Python and The Search for the Holy Grail come to
>> mind.
>>
>> Sir Robin, to be specific. "...and bravely he did run away..."
>Yep that's Wayne. When the going gets tough Runaway Wayne can't be seen
>for dust.
>
>He started running when I asked him to explain the numbers on his web
>site and hasn't stopped running when ever he gets out of his depth.
Dear Mr. Ghio
Please forgive my English as I have not the writer command or book of
yourself. I also have suffered bruises of American Satans stones. I
am very most impressed with your waits in thinking! I seek
illumination on driving of the generators may the range be expected
how far? I will of course generous reward you for more valued
asights. I am the Reality Information Consultant with superior
knowledge in my country. My humble service is at your disposal. My
fans club link is beneath may I expect yours also?
Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf (you can call me Bob)
ComAli...@RIC.com
http://croqueweb.com/fan/ photos of me (I use older ones yahoodating
ha ha)
daestrom
"George Ghio" <A...@nomailhere.com> wrote in message
news:4355b...@news.chariot.net.au...
> Yep that's Wayne. When the going gets tough Runaway Wayne can't be seen
> for dust.
>
> He started running when I asked him to explain the numbers on his web site
> and hasn't stopped running when ever he gets out of his depth.
>
>
Uh, since you apparently didn't figure it out, Tony was referring to you
George.
Wayne asked some straight-forward questions about your generator/rheostat
set up and you 'bravely ran away' by changing the topic to your usual rant
about Wayne and his system.
Why don't you just answer the questions?? Or are you too busy 'bravely
running away, and buggering off and skipping town and ......'
You seem to be using about 100W during finishing charge. This is
underutilizing your 5HP engine by much more than what you yourself have
criticized others about. How come??
You 'plug in the field to the rheostat'? Why don't you just permanently
wire it up to a switch?
If you only use the generator for occasional backups (after all, you've
bragged often that PV charges your batteries to 100% most days before noon,
it's so well designed); then why do you perform a full charge with the
generator? This conflicts with your other statements about, "I only
require that they be in the top twenty per cent of their capacity." Which
is it, charge them up full most days with PV, or use generator to fully
charge them, or both??
How does manually connecting ('plug in'), frequently manually adjusting a
rheostat, frequently monitoring for 'bubbling' and excess voltage, "beat
the s___ out of any electric battery charger"? Or are you just comparing
your method with $12 auto-parts store types of chargers, and not considering
*real*, well-designed, chargers? If so, why?
daestrom
Robert Morein
<nicks...@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:dj4sql$p...@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
between the plates and the aqueous solution 120 times per second. It amounts
to a mini charge-discharge cycle at that rate. It adds up.
JoeSixPack
"Bruce in Alaska" <bru...@btpost.net> wrote in message
news:bruceg-3CEDA4....@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
> In article <4352d539.34092689@localhost>,
> hchickpe...@hotmail.com (Harry Chickpea) wrote:
>
>
>
> snipped for brevity
>
>
>> Where I'm going is the idea of a system where an engine/alternator
>> operates for the peak 2 to 4 hours per day, also supplying hot water
>> and heat as co-gen, but then the battery/inverter system coasts the
>> lighting and less energy intensive appliances through the rest of the
>> day - but (and this is the big but) the system can operate in this
>> mode indefinitely.
>>
>> Is something like this feasible?
>
> This is basically how I use my system. I have twin 20Kw Gensets
> that I run for a totall of 10 hours a day. (7Am to noon, and 5Pm to 10Pm)
> That takes care of the main High Power Loadings of Breakfast and Dinner
> and the charging of all the battery banks for the twin inverter systems
> connected. It also keeps the four freezers at better than -10F on a
> 24/7 basis, and the telco equipment battery bank charged. I have had
> really good luck with both a 1200Amp/hour 24Vdc L16HD bank, as well
> as a 800Amp/hour 24Vdc Absolyte II AGM battery bank. These are on
> the inverter systems. L16 bank is over 4 years old, and replaced a
> 800Amp/hour bank that was 12 years old. The Absolyte II bank is 8 years
> old now and still has 95% of the new capacity.
>
> Bruce in alaska
> --
Ain't he da man?
George Ghio
First of all I'm not Runaway Wayne. Tony described him to a tee.
Now are you asking for yourself? Or just as a proxy for Runaway Wayne.
If you are asking for yourself, I just might answer your questions.
While you ponder you answer think of this before you start saying I ran
away.
Wayne, AKA, Wanker Wayne, AKA, Runaway Wayne, AKA BB Perhaps you should
be aware of his history. He had a Web site, you know, the kind of site
that says “Hey look at what I’ve done”.
Well, as you might expect it was only a matter of time before someone
came along and said “OK, What have you in fact done?”
The upshot being that Wayne pulled on his running shoes and … Well,
history speaks for itself. Wayne’s first long distance run started with
the question and ended when he pulled his web site, quite simply because
he could not work out what he had done.
The truth is he is still running, oh, he turns around now and again to
hurl abuse or issue some childish challenge. But over all he is in line
for sponsorship from Nike.
Still, to date, he is totally unable to tell us how he arrived at his
two days autonomy or even what the magical “reduced load” is that makes
his two days autonomy possible.
I know it’s sad, but there you have it. How could you take Wayne
seriously when even a simple two days autonomy is beyond his ability.
And dare I mention his little "Grinder in the house" fiasco. Shit, if he
can't work out his own system what makes any one think he could make up
a scenario that is believable. It was a farce. Pure and simple. Rather
than sitting down with a calculator and crunching some numbers to get it
right he turned tail and ran.
And all the time hiding behind his "I don't have to tell you" attitude,
supported by a lot of people who know even less than Wayne.
So why should I waste my and everybody else's time and band width
explaining to a moron what he should be able to see for himself.
Now he challenges what is a basic and simple battery charger anyone can
build, on the basis of it being too hard to operate.
As far as my battery charger is concerned it cost me almost nothing to
build. It does a better job than the $1200 electric charger that fails
so often that I have a collection of them as scrap collected from very
dissatisfied people who want one like mine.
So, have you had time to think about it? Who's asking, you or the
pitiful long distance runner?
JoeSixPack
satanic stones?
George Ghio
Ulysses
"BB" <ComAli...@RIC.com> wrote in message I am the Reality Information
Consultant with superior
> knowledge in my country. My humble service is at your disposal. My
> fans club link is beneath may I expect yours also?
>
> Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf (you can call me Bob)
> ComAli...@RIC.com
> http://croqueweb.com/fan/ photos of me (I use older ones yahoodating
> ha ha)
Wow. Superior knowledge, a fan club, AND humble!
BTW I'm looking for my Gavalia coffee maker.
Do you know where it is or how many watts it uses? I fugure I can either
buy a 1500 watt inverter or get a coffee maker that will run off my 800 watt
inverter. Which coffee makers use less than 800 watts?
wmbjk
wrote:
>daestrom wrote:
>> "George Ghio" <A...@nomailhere.com> wrote in message
>> news:4355b...@news.chariot.net.au...
>> Uh, since you apparently didn't figure it out, Tony was referring to you
>> George.
>>
>> Wayne asked some straight-forward questions about your generator/rheostat
>> set up and you 'bravely ran away' by changing the topic to your usual rant
>> about Wayne and his system.
>>
>> Why don't you just answer the questions?? Or are you too busy 'bravely
>> running away, and buggering off and skipping town and ......'
>> daestrom
>So why should I waste my and everybody else's time and band width
>explaining to a moron what he should be able to see for himself.
>
>Now he challenges what is a basic and simple battery charger anyone can
>build, on the basis of it being too hard to operate.
I wouldn't call it "hard" to operate. More like "unnecessarily
inconvenient and inefficient". But as you've described its features,
it does have one that David Copperfield might be interested in:
exactly how at only 35 Amps and tapering down, it's nevertheless able
to produce over 600 Ahrs in 3 hours. That's what we might call a
six-fold magic trick. Put another way, even though 3 hour's running
would normally about cover a single day's consumption, in loaves and
fishes fashion it's apparently able to replace 6 days of discharge.
Here are 3 possible explanations:
1. That your "I know what's going on at all times" battery voltage
readings *aren't* at-rest. Instead, 12 Volts is a battery-discharging
reading, 12.8 Volts is a battery-charging reading, and neither reflect
a true state of charge. That's a common mistake made by rookies, who
usually learn to either work around the limitations or buy a proper
battery monitor. But someone claiming 20 years of experience would
have to be one hell of slow learner to keep making the same mistake.
And if we believe that's why your descriptions don't make sense, it
means that you're firing up the generator well in advance of your
frequently bragged-on 5 days autonomy being exhausted. So why "design"
for so much battery capacity if you prefer not to use it, but to run a
generator instead?
2. That the readings *are* at-rest, and represent the true state of
charge. That's the only way a knowledgeable person would quote battery
voltage without qualification. In which case the 3 hour charge routine
you described would take perhaps 21 hours. That tall of a tale makes
perfect sense considering your history of reality-optional posts.
3. That your battery capacity has deteriorated to a fraction of
nameplate. Being on your fourth set of tired batteries would explain
why you mentioned replacing the current set quite a while ago, and why
you're reluctant to talk about equalizing. With a small enough
capacity and a dollop of number fudging, your charging descriptions
could actually make some sense. But that would mean that your recent
claim of "happy" batteries is either BS or ignorance. Or most likely,
a bunch of both.
>As far as my battery charger is concerned it cost me almost nothing to
>build.
Reasonable readers would expect that your endlessly self-proclaimed
"design" ability wouldn't allow you to intentionally set a new
benchmark of inefficiency by marrying a 5hp engine to an oft-times
100W output. Is there any valid reason you didn't use a $5, 65A
alternator like most other people do? Or go on a mad spending spree
and buy a shiny new one for $50?
> It does a better job than the $1200 electric charger that fails
>so often that I have a collection of them as scrap collected from very
>dissatisfied people who want one like mine.
These narrow-minded recommendations and phony choices you offer are a
reflection of your lack of experience. Why would the choice have to be
between a particular type of electric charger, and features <snorf>
such as "plugging in the field"? Why not a better-matched alternator
with <gasp> switches? Why not an inverter-charger?
>So, have you had time to think about it? Who's asking, you or the
>pitiful long distance runner?
Daestrom asked you fairly and directly, in public, to answer "straight
forward" questions. Weasel and dissemble all you like, but it will
only prolong your time in the hot seat.
Wayne
wmbjk
wrote:
>Did you ever help that Islamic fellow who was suffering from american
>satanic stones?
I tried to imagine who might be interested in George's book after
reading his posts. I figured it would have to be one of George's
fellow awful...I mean artful dodgers. I'm thinking that George was
already spending the $25 in his mind, right up until the time he
clicked on the URL and found out he'd been had. :-)
Wayne
JoeSixPack
"Ulysses" <thereal...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:11lfifk...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> BTW I'm looking for my Gavalia coffee maker.
> Do you know where it is or how many watts it uses? I fugure I can either
> buy a 1500 watt inverter or get a coffee maker that will run off my 800
> watt
> inverter. Which coffee makers use less than 800 watts?
>
>
No offense, but that's about the least efficient way to make coffee that
exists. What's wrong with with a stovetop percolator pot, or pouring
boiling water through a filter basket, or a Bodum? If you must use an
automatic drip coffeemaker, truckstops sell a number of 12V models.
Ulysses
"JoeSixPack" <ol...@telus.net> wrote in message
news:kDR5f.47258$ir4.31725@edtnps90...
engine/alternator/invertor going I like the convenience. Besides it only
takes about 6 or 7 minutes to make a pot of coffee so it's not really that
big of a deal.
I have two stovetop drip coffee makers, one that makes 7 cups and one that
makes 18 (we refer to it as the 18 wheeler ;). It takes longer to heat up
the water and pour it in and wait for it to run through than to use
electric. But propane is cheaper than gasoline so I'm sure that it costs
less to use the stovetop. I looked into 12 volt coffee makers and decided
against them mainly because they take 15-20 minutes to make a pot.
I just bought a 650 watt coffee maker on eBay this morning so we'll see how
it works on my 700 or 800 watt inverter. Part of my goal is to be able to
run some *essential* appliances from the engine/alternator/inverter setup
(can well call it EAI for short?) such as a small microwave and coffee maker
(highest power loads) in addition to TVs, DVD players and VCRs, computers
etc, most of which run from batteries and another inverter. Once I
accomplish my goal of being able to run all this stuff from the EAI then my
next step will be to build a woodgas unit and run it all from wood chips in
which case I won't care about fuel consumption. I have a small microwave
that only draws about 520 watts and managed to make a pot of coffee with my
700 watt Wagan inverter (coffee maker is rated at 900 watts) but it shut
down from overheating about 2/3 of the way through, cooled off, and then
finished the job. Kinda hard on it though.
nicks...@ece.villanova.edu
>...I fugure I can either buy a 1500 watt inverter or get a coffee maker
>that will run off my 800 watt inverter. Which coffee makers use less
>than 800 watts?
You may be going in the wrong direction.
I just installed a 3 kW 240 V UK Swan teakettle in my kitchen, removing
the 13 A fused plug and wiring the line cord into my 3-wire range with
spade disconnects. (How many NEC violations is that? :-)
It boils water in less than a minute with five times the microwave's power
and twice the efficiency, then instantly turns itself off.
GE makes a wimpy 1500 watt 120 V version, $30 at Wal-Mart. At 6 kW on 240 V,
(the grid is 249 V at my house), its 6548 watts might boil a cup of 60 F water
in 3600x0.5(212-60)/(6548x3.142) = 12.4 seconds, within the dual 40 amp range
breaker capacity, altho that might fill the kitchen with huge clouds of steam
and shorten the life of the heating element and burn out the pilot light.
And... a Halloween "Crash-a-Witch" hugging a bundle of burned-out flourescent
tubes would look cool hanging from a nylon rope over the 25 kV transmission
line on the telephone pole above my mailbox, close enough to the line to glow.
Nick, EE gone wrong.
wmbjk
>GE makes a wimpy 1500 watt 120 V version, $30 at Wal-Mart. At 6 kW on 240 V,
>(the grid is 249 V at my house), its 6548 watts might boil a cup of 60 F water
>in 3600x0.5(212-60)/(6548x3.142) = 12.4 seconds,
Reminds me of a comedy bit, Cathy Ladman I think... standing in front
of the microwave, irritated, growling "come on!!". :-)
Wayne
George Ghio
Nothing he has said below is worth reading. He jumps to conclusions
based on the sludge between his ears.
You can start with his comment about replacing 600 Ah. This is just a
figment of his mad dash to prove me wrong. At no time did I ever use the
figure 600 Ah.
Wanker Wayne is wrong. Again. No surprise.
wmbjk
wrote:
>At no time did I ever use the
>figure 600 Ah.
You didn't need to George. You gave your before and after battery
voltages of 12 and 12.8. That's a difference of about 75% of charge,
which on your 840Ah rated battery is 630Ah. Care to elaborate on your
story of replacing 630Ah in only 3 hours using a 35A tapered charge?
Put another way (while being generous and leaving out the short
strokes), if 90Ah of supply from 3 hours of tapered-charging generator
time takes an at-rest battery from 12V to 12.8V, then that battery's
capacity is about 120Ah, not 840. You may never understand, but
everybody else does...
I really like these posts where you pretend you haven't blundered. If
rational stories were ball parks and numbers were players, then your
team is stuck in traffic 10 miles from the field while singing "99
bottles of beer on the wall, 99 bottles of beer..."
Wayne
George Ghio
Derek Broughton
> "JoeSixPack" <ol...@telus.net> wrote in message
> news:kDR5f.47258$ir4.31725@edtnps90...
>>
>> "Ulysses" <thereal...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:11lfifk...@corp.supernews.com...
>>
>> > BTW I'm looking for my Gavalia coffee maker.
>> > Do you know where it is or how many watts it uses? I fugure I can
> either
>> > buy a 1500 watt inverter or get a coffee maker that will run off my 800
>> > watt
>> > inverter. Which coffee makers use less than 800 watts?
>>
>> No offense, but that's about the least efficient way to make coffee that
>> exists. What's wrong with with a stovetop percolator pot, or pouring
>> boiling water through a filter basket, or a Bodum? If you must use an
>> automatic drip coffeemaker, truckstops sell a number of 12V models.
>>
> I absolutely agree, but heck, if I have my little Honda or
> engine/alternator/invertor going I like the convenience. Besides it only
> takes about 6 or 7 minutes to make a pot of coffee so it's not really that
> big of a deal.
Except that if you have to invest in new generators or coffee makers just to
get a good cup of coffee, mightn't it make more sense just to use the
stove-top perc you already have?
> I just bought a 650 watt coffee maker on eBay this morning so we'll see
> how
> it works on my 700 or 800 watt inverter. Part of my goal is to be able to
> run some *essential* appliances from the engine/alternator/inverter setup
I guess we all have our own definitions of essential :-)
My wife was just asking what I miss in our current off-grid lifestyle, and
the only thing I really miss is the microwave - and that only in summer.
Once the heating season starts, things sit on the oil stove to warm up or
stay warm. Also - and this is relevant to your situation - a full kettle
sits on that oil stove whenever the stove is on, so it usually takes less
than 30 seconds to get boiling water for tea or coffee.
(Actually we still have the microwave - unpacked since we moved in - and I
couldn't convince _her_ to put it in the yard sale last month).
> (can well call it EAI for short?)
I just call it "inverter" for short - there always needs to be assumed some
way to power the inverter, be it engine/alternator, batteries, solar panels
or wind generator (all of which I use).
--
derek
wmbjk
wrote:
>Wrong again Wayne
If you believed that, then you'd have dumped another explanatory opus
of blunders on us by now. Perhaps you've finally learned your lesson,
and perhaps the sun will rise in the West tomorrow.
One has to wonder if your "book" contains a battery capacity/voltage
chart, and if you've ever bothered to read it.
Wayne
Ulysses
"Derek Broughton" <ne...@pointerstop.ca> wrote in message
news:8i2n23-...@news.pointerstop.ca...
I use the microwave to pre-cook potatoes and then stick them on the BBQ to
finish them off while cooking meat. I plan to make a solar cooker which I
*think* will precook them but I can't seem to get around to making it (I'm a
very busy guy). If I'm roasting something in the oven then the potatoes go
in there too. But, no matter what, I can't make "Butter Lovers" microwave
popcorn without a microwave ;-) I've used hot air poppers, reusable
microwave poppers, a large pan on the stove, and even Jiffy Pop, but I have
never been able to make popcorn as good as "Butter Lovers."
> Once the heating season starts, things sit on the oil stove to warm up or
> stay warm. Also - and this is relevant to your situation - a full kettle
> sits on that oil stove whenever the stove is on, so it usually takes less
> than 30 seconds to get boiling water for tea or coffee.
I live in Southern California and I don't even know what an oil stove is.
I'm thinking of getting a woodburning stove which might do some of the same
things. I'd also thought of keeping some water in the solar cooker (once I
make it) to keep it hot.
>
> (Actually we still have the microwave - unpacked since we moved in - and I
> couldn't convince _her_ to put it in the yard sale last month).
>
> > (can well call it EAI for short?)
>
> I just call it "inverter" for short - there always needs to be assumed
some
> way to power the inverter, be it engine/alternator, batteries, solar
panels
> or wind generator (all of which I use).
I live in a Zone 3 wind area so as much as I would like to get a wind
generator I don't think I would work very well. Besides that I've heard
numbers such as $20,000 for a permit where I live. Dollar for dollar I
would probably be better off with solar panels but they are so expensive.
For now I get along fine with generators and batteries and inverters. Gas
is expensive and generators need repairs, maintenance, and sometimes
replacement but I can buy a lot of gasoline and generators for the $20,000-
$30,000 it seems like it would take to buy a complete solar system. I use a
small generator to recharge my batteries (and make coffee and run the
microwave) and a bigger 240VAC generator to run the well pump and fill the
water tank. I also use it to run high load power tools. I manage my tool
usage and only run the bigger generator for only about 20-30 minutes a day.
Sooner or later I will get a least a couple of solar panels to get started
but it costs about $900 just to get about 14 or 15 amps and there would
probably not be enough power there to allow for my microwave and coffee
maker ;-)
Derek Broughton
> Sooner or later I will get a least a couple of solar panels to get
> started but it costs about $900 just to get about 14 or 15 amps and there
> would probably not be enough power there to allow for my microwave and
> coffee maker ;-)
Don't you still have rebates for solar panels?
--
derek
Ulysses
Yes, but only if they are connected to the grid.
Steve Spence
Hey, that's a good idea, make your neighbors pay for your solar panels .....
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
George Ghio
Logged data says you are wrong.
And logged data is worth far more than the sad advice from someone who
can't even work out two days autonomy.
wmbjk
wrote:
>> On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 George Ghio <A...@nomailhere.com>
>> wrote:
>>Wrong again Wayne
>wmbjk wrote:
> If you believed that, then you'd have dumped another explanatory opus
> of blunders on us by now. Perhaps you've finally learned your lesson,
> and perhaps the sun will rise in the West tomorrow.
> One has to wonder if your "book" contains a battery capacity/voltage
> chart, and if you've ever bothered to read it.
> Wayne
>>>Logged data says you are wrong.
Cool! <I heart Ghioisms> So by logging data when charging batteries,
one can take 840Ah of batteries from 12V to 12.8V with less than 90Ah
of charging! I can almost hear the infomercial.... "Amazing!". And
yet... I can't help but notice that you're not posting any of that
data. It seems heartless of you to withhold an opportunity for the
rest of us to see battery charging COP numbers for the first time.
You know George, considering how you embellished your charging story
with irreconcilable details, there wasn't ever any face-saving way to
write your way out of it. But you'd be better off claiming brain-fade
due to kangaroo fumes than continuing to weasel. You may as well be
wearing a sandwich board advertising your own willful ignorance.
Wayne
George Ghio
magical reduced load. Then someone just might believe you.
You are still wrong. Now all the clues are there work it out. I have the
logged data and it is much more reliable than your ranting.
Derek Broughton
> Derek Broughton wrote:
>> Ulysses wrote:
>>
>>>Sooner or later I will get a least a couple of solar panels to get
>>>started but it costs about $900 just to get about 14 or 15 amps and there
>>>would probably not be enough power there to allow for my microwave and
>>>coffee maker ;-)
>>
>> Don't you still have rebates for solar panels?
>
> Hey, that's a good idea, make your neighbors pay for your solar panels
What? You recommend that people _not_ take advantage of existing rebates?
Thus encouraging the people who _don't_ to pay for others panels.
We don't have any rebates here, but I would never suggest to anyone that
they not apply for any that were offered. I'm already paying enough to
subsidize the oil & gas industry - I should be able to take advantage of
the subsidies that apply to _me_.
In this case, Ulysses was quoting figures that look normal to me, but seemed
high for what I knew of California. It hadn't occurred to me that CA
rebates only applied to grid-connected homes.
--
derek
Steve Spence
I didn't use any rebates for my stuff, I bought it myself. Folks have to
realize that the fantastic $40k discount they get on their $80k system
was paid for by taxpayers in general, it isn't free money. You want to
go solar? Fine. But pay for it yourself, and base your payback on your
money, not your neighbors. They didn't have a choice in your purchase
decision.
wmbjk
wrote:
>> On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:55:57 +1000, George Ghio <A...@nomailhere.com>
>> wrote:
>>>wmbjk wrote:
>>>>>Logged data says you are wrong.
>> Cool! <I heart Ghioisms> So by logging data when charging batteries,
>> one can take 840Ah of batteries from 12V to 12.8V with less than 90Ah
>> of charging! I can almost hear the infomercial.... "Amazing!". And
>> yet... I can't help but notice that you're not posting any of that
>> data. It seems heartless of you to withhold an opportunity for the
>> rest of us to see battery charging COP numbers for the first time.
>>
>> You know George, considering how you embellished your charging story
>> with irreconcilable details, there wasn't ever any face-saving way to
>> write your way out of it. But you'd be better off claiming brain-fade
>> due to kangaroo fumes than continuing to weasel. You may as well be
>> wearing a sandwich board advertising your own willful ignorance.
>>
>> Wayne
>You are still wrong. Now all the clues are there work it out. I have the
>logged data and it is much more reliable than your ranting.
Silly me, the voltages you quoted were only "clues", and the point of
your story was to begin a guessing game! How thoughtful of you!
Perhaps saying what you mean was just too pedestrian. Well, apparently
we're all out of guesses, which makes you the winner! Could it be that
the only reason you're still weaseling instead of posting the logged
data is because that would be an even worse violation of the First
Rule of Holes? Nah...
Wayne
George Ghio
Yep, he bought it himself, why don't you help him buy some more himself
by making a donation at http://www.green-trust.org/. This is a guy who
is so self reliant that when things get a bit hard he just whips out his
trusty begging bowl. No, he doesn't need a rebate scheme. He has his own.
Steve Spence
ah, but when folks donate to us (we are a non-profit, remember, george),
it's by choice. When you use a rebate, your neighbors are not being
given the choice of "donating" to your solar array, you are taking it
from them, through government taxes. Do you have non-profit
organizations where you live , George. How do you think they provide the
services they do? From donations. Folks who donate to us are indicating
that they appreciate the services we have provided, at no charge, to the
community.
Derek Broughton
> I didn't use any rebates for my stuff, I bought it myself. Folks have to
> realize that the fantastic $40k discount they get on their $80k system
> was paid for by taxpayers in general, it isn't free money. You want to
> go solar? Fine. But pay for it yourself, and base your payback on your
> money, not your neighbors. They didn't have a choice in your purchase
> decision.
I'm sorry Steve, but that just seems nuts to me. Of course it's not free
money, but _you_ are the one who's paying for those rebates. Everyone else
is taking advantage of them, and it doesn't make any sense at all to take
the moral high ground and refuse to take your tax dollars back. Campaign
against rebates if you want - but don't forget to campaign against the
subsidies to the oil industry, while you're at it.
Looked at from another pov, you're subsidizing your neighbors use of fossil
fuels and not letting them help pay for your alternatives.
--
derek
Anthony Matonak
...
> In this case, Ulysses was quoting figures that look normal to me, but seemed
> high for what I knew of California. It hadn't occurred to me that CA
> rebates only applied to grid-connected homes.
I'm no lawyer, nor do I play one on the internet, but I believe if you
read the language of the CA rebates closely enough that the term "grid"
can be interpreted to apply to any system of wires that supplies power
to your home. This means you might be able to get the rebates even if
you consider your home "off-grid".
Anthony
Steve Spence
Not in NY. Only a connection to Niagara Mohawk with a netmetering
contract would entitle me to a rebate. No thanks.
nicks...@ece.villanova.edu
the PECO service territory, whether grid-connected or not.
Nick
George Ghio
Steve Spence wrote:
SNIP
> ah, but when folks donate to us (we are a non-profit, remember, george),
> it's by choice. When you use a rebate, your neighbors are not being
> given the choice of "donating" to your solar array, you are taking it
> from them, through government taxes. Do you have non-profit
> organizations where you live , George. How do you think they provide the
> services they do? From donations. Folks who donate to us are indicating
> that they appreciate the services we have provided, at no charge, to the
> community.
>
So democracy is dead and those people the government is stealing the
rebate money from did not have a say in choosing the government.
It also seems a bit odd that the "Donated Money" seems to be being spent
on your property. Oh thats right all the surplus generated energy is
being given to the poor who live in the area.
No, you are a stammer. Right down to the "My wife is sick, I've lost my
job, send me money. My pastor says I deserve it story"
Visit <http://greendodgytrust.com/ihopethetaxmanisblind> today and give
poor Steve some of your money so he can maintain his lifestyle.
And on the topic of dodgy things the spreadsheet offered on your site is
worthless. I suggest you either fix it or remove it. Funny how your site
seems to have so many dodgy points.
Why is that?
JoeSixPack
"Steve Spence" <ssp...@green-trust.org> wrote in message
news:g3s6f.3278$fn....@fe08.lga...
>
> ah, but when folks donate to us (we are a non-profit, remember, george),
> it's by choice. When you use a rebate, your neighbors are not being given
> the choice of "donating" to your solar array, you are taking it from them,
> through government taxes. Do you have non-profit organizations where you
> live , George. How do you think they provide the services they do? From
> donations. Folks who donate to us are indicating that they appreciate the
> services we have provided, at no charge, to the community.
>
I examined your website and didn't see any evidence that you are a
registered not-for-profit corporation. If you are collecting money under
the guise of such, you could be in a good deal of legal jeopardy.
wmbjk
<ssp...@green-trust.org> wrote:
>George Ghio wrote:
>>
>>
>> Steve Spence wrote:
>> Yep, he bought it himself, why don't you help him buy some more himself
>> by making a donation at http://www.green-trust.org/.
George, even though I don't agree with Steve's rebates-are-bad
position, you're the last guy who should be accusing anyone else of
hypocrisy. Elsewhere in this very thread you've refused to explain why
you criticized a generator for being underpowered when your own is 7
times worse. If we're allowed to make selective judgments, then aren't
you the guy who previously bragged that he got a bag of Ozzie cash in
exchange for emigrating? How many of those taxpayers were asked if
they wanted to fund a quack whose destiny was to spend his days taking
(probably subsidized) courses, and his nights as Usenet's Judge
Nitwit? The least you could do now is offer them a refund.
Wayne
Steve Spence
are asking. It would be terrible if I had to give back the whole $150 we
were given in "thank you's" this year. Fortunately, there is no
requirement in NY to be registered as a charitable organization in order
for folks to donate a few bucks if they feel they have been given
valuable information. The 501(c)3 status is for giving tax deductions
for charitable contributions.
daestrom
> Anthony Matonak wrote:
>> Derek Broughton wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> In this case, Ulysses was quoting figures that look normal to me, but
>>> seemed
>>> high for what I knew of California. It hadn't occurred to me that CA
>>> rebates only applied to grid-connected homes.
>>
>>
>> I'm no lawyer, nor do I play one on the internet, but I believe if you
>> read the language of the CA rebates closely enough that the term "grid"
>> can be interpreted to apply to any system of wires that supplies power
>> to your home. This means you might be able to get the rebates even if
>> you consider your home "off-grid".
>>
>> Anthony
>
> Not in NY. Only a connection to Niagara Mohawk with a netmetering contract
> would entitle me to a rebate. No thanks.
>
Of course, now you mean 'National Grid' ;-)
daestrom