Car alternator wind mill generator?
gaikokuji...@gmail.com
offices are waaaaaay out in the boonies (no electricity, no running
water, nada). At the moment they have a cr*ppy chinese generator and
funding is apparently so tight that we can't afford another generator
(since the chinese generators have proven to have a life of about a
year and the higher ups don't seem to have a concept of spending more
money for a better generator [like a Honda generator]).
Anyway, the point is that three of our offices are on the sides of
mountains or very tall hills where 3/4th of the day it is *really*
windy. Since we have very little funding i was trying to think of a
cheap means of power and thought about putting together a "cheap" wind/
generator from a truck/car alternator and fan and a few car batteries.
The problem is, my background is agricultural development so i have
little concept of if the afore mentioned setup would even work or how
much it would power or how much it would cost. The most power our
offices use is to power a TV or Computer plus flourecnet lights and
thats it. I have looked around on the internet for plans for cheap
solar or wind power setups but haven't found many (I am told they are
there, but the ones i have found seem to be insanely complicated or
way too expensive).
So if anyone out there knows of such plans or NGOs that deal with such
things (I tried geek corps but it appears that was a bit low tech for
them) please let me know!
Cheers
-Gaiko
The Real Andy
wrote:
Car alternators are all but useless. You need a permanent magnet
motor.
Balanced View
would work, many late 50's to mid 60's cars and
trucks used generators.
(PeteCresswell)
>Car alternators are all but useless. You need a permanent magnet
>motor.
Can somebody expand on that in terms that somebody who knows
nothing can understand?
The alternator under the hood of my car charges the car's battery
- and we can get current from the cars battery...
So what diff does it make who spins the alternator (the car's
engine or some sort of windmill...)?
--
PeteCresswell
BobG
with a microcontroller that can control the field windings with pwm,
thus regulating the torque load on the blade so it doesnt stall out in
weak breezes, thus extracting more energy from any available wind.
There are many turn-key windmill kits on the web...Airx is one I can
remember the name of... now the question is... will they ship a
windmill and a bunch of golf cart batteries to a war zone?
MooseFET
> On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 03:56:14 -0700, gaikokujinkyofu...@gmail.com
I disagree. If the bits of cars are what he can get then that is what
he has to work with.
The alternator from a car needs to be turned at a few thousand RPM to
make useful power. This is the point that causes the trouble.
He needs to list out what he can get his hands on. Can he get all of
the parts from the electrical system of a car? Does he have lumber
and tools? Does he have pulleys? What are the locals able to
improvise?
Heres sort of the idea I had:
Take a oil drum and split it along its length.
Make some sort of verticle shaft that is well supported.
Run a couple of 2x4s crosswise and attach them firmly to the shaft.
Attach the drum halves near the ends of the crossbars.
Use something like a bicycle wheel as a pulley on the shaft to take to
power off. Or perhaps take a bicyle chain etc to do it.
Bicycle parts will give you about an x10 step up in speed. He will
need more than that. Perhaps two x10 step ups could work.
Frogwatch
I like MooseFET's idea. However, getting an old truck generator
should not be hard. Third world countries always have lots of old
junk trucks. The bigger the better. He can use one of the old style
mechanical voltage regulators.
(PeteCresswell)
>So what diff does it make who spins the alternator (the car's
>engine or some sort of windmill...)?
I think MooseFET's post answers that question: speed of rotation
seems tb the issue.
--
PeteCresswell
Jim Thompson
>Frogwatch wrote:
>> On Aug 27, 10:27 am, MooseFET <kensm...@rahul.net> wrote:
[snip]
>>>
>>> Bicycle parts will give you about an x10 step up in speed. He will
>>> need more than that. Perhaps two x10 step ups could work.
>>
>> I like MooseFET's idea. However, getting an old truck generator
>> should not be hard. Third world countries always have lots of old
>> junk trucks. The bigger the better. He can use one of the old style
>> mechanical voltage regulators.
>
>Or, seeing on how this is America and everything, we could apply our
>considerable scientific and engineering expertise to the problem of
>small wind generators. Wouldn't that be something? But it ain't gonna
>happen because American for some reason are the dumbest fucks around.
Maybe you should try learning to read?
Small wind generators have been discussed on SED in some considerable
engineering detail that pointed out the terribly low efficiency of
such a device... see Don Lancaster's comments.
But you're probably some dumb-fuck leftist weenie who thinks wishing
it so makes it so ;-)
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave
clareatsnyder.on.ca
wrote:
Pete, the automotive alternator is terribly inefficient. If you have
lots of wind you WILL get power from it, but not nearly as much as
with a better alternator/generator - and you need the right kind of
"turbine" to drive it. You need pretty good speed, which would dictate
a small multi-blade fan - which again is not very efficient, or a gear
train to gear up a large slower running prop to spin the alternator
fast - also not terribly efficient.
There are plans on the net for making blades out of plastic drainage
pipe. You could use a multi-belt drive to gear it up. Relatively
simple and not TOO inefficient. You will need power from the battery
to get it charging and some way to keep the field from drawing power
when the wind is not adequate to provide a net power gain.
With a proper generatoe unit you would likely get almost TWICE as much
power out of the same wind.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Steve Spence
"(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid> wrote in message
news:aij5d31cglda4s7vs...@4ax.com...
car alternators spin at high rpm's, with a parasitic field loss. totally
inappropriate for wind apps.
--
Steve Spence
Director, Green-Trust
http://www.green-trust.org
http://www.green-trust.org/bookshop/
Steve Spence
<gaikokuji...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1188212174....@r23g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
The most power our
> offices use is to power a TV or Computer plus flourecnet lights and
> thats it. I have looked around on the internet for plans for cheap
> solar or wind power setups but haven't found many (I am told they are
> there, but the ones i have found seem to be insanely complicated or
> way too expensive).
>
> So if anyone out there knows of such plans or NGOs that deal with such
> things (I tried geek corps but it appears that was a bit low tech for
> them) please let me know!
>
> Cheers
>
> -Gaiko
>
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/axialflux/ has info on DIY $1 / watt wind
gens (including tower) which will work a whole lot better than a car
alternator.
Martin Griffith
Savonious could be the word to google
eg
http://www.macarthurmusic.com/johnkwilson/MakingasimpleSavoniuswindturbine.htm
Martin
Anthony Matonak
>
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/axialflux/ has info on DIY $1 / watt wind
> gens (including tower) which will work a whole lot better than a car
> alternator.
You can also download plans (or buy the books) from Hugh Piggott's
Homepage.
http://www.scoraigwind.com/
Anthony
ehsjr
> considerable scientific and engineering expertise to the problem of
> small wind generators. Wouldn't that be something? But it ain't gonna
> happen
Wrong - it already has happened: http://www.bergey.com/
> because American for some reason are the dumbest fucks around.
>
Perhaps you know nothing about the following:
July 21, 1969
John C Mather
George F Smoot
Roger D Kornberg
Craig C Mello
Andrew Z Fire
Balanced View
> In alt.energy.renewable Balanced View <Ni...@nill.net> wrote:
>
>> If you can find an old car generator as opposed to an alternator it
>>
>
> the obvious difference between an alternator and a generator that the
> alternator is more pancake shaped and probably aluminum, where the
> generator is more barrel shaped and probably black?
Could be any color, the one in my MG was red, like the engine block.
Generally tube shaped and about
a foot + long. It would be a good idea to grab the ammeter too, along
with the regulator ;~). Instead of the
wind they could just chuck the generator on any old gas motor via a belt.
> Just thinking of how
> to do a quick ID in the field. I might expect that generators are common
> on oldish heavier vehicles or ag vehicles in Afghanistan.
>
> If he has the opportunity to grab a few parts from a vehicle, he would want
> to grab the generator, follow the slightly thick wire back to a box about
> the size of a three pack of US cigarettes and grab that as well.
>
> In Mongolia, there were a lot of Chinese wind generators. They had to be
> monitored fairly closely, usually tethered across the wind so they wouldn't
> spin out of control. I only saw them spinning when power was needed.
>
>
BobG
field takes a couple amps at 12v to run, so thats 24 watts out of
1200...2% to the field coil, and another couple percent to the slip
ring friction. The diode loss for a car alternator and a permanent
magner alternator is another couple %, but it cancels out... need to
have em. I guess you could use low drop diodes and save a % or so. The
negatives for a big powerful PMA is the torque it takes to turn it...
need a big wind. With a car alternator, the torque on the blade can be
turned down to nothing... free wheeling... you might only be getting a
couple volts in a 1 mph wind, but with a 95% wide input range dc to dc
converter, who cares. If the darn alternator takes a poop after 6
months, who cares? The junk yard is full of em.
Doug Bashford
Re: Car alternator wind mill generator?
> On Aug 27, 4:18 am, The Real Andy <thereala...@nospam.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 03:56:14 -0700, gaikokujinkyofu...@gmail.com
> > wrote:
...........snip
> > >Anyway, the point is that three of our offices are on the sides of
> > >mountains or very tall hills where 3/4th of the day it is *really*
> > >windy. Since we have very little funding i was trying to think of a
> > >cheap means of power and thought about putting together a "cheap" wind/
> > >generator from a truck/car alternator and fan and a few car batteries.
A fan!? Like a living room fan?
> > >cheap means of power
As humanity is now discovering, no such thing.
Power is costly.
No free lunch. Now you are discovering this too.
> > >The problem is, my background is agricultural development so i have
> > >little concept of if the afore mentioned setup would even work or how
> > >much it would power or how much it would cost. The most power our
> > >offices use is to power a TV or Computer plus flourecnet lights and
> > >thats it.
IOW, you want close to unmodified city life.
Your first step should be to reduce your power needs.
(first step in Conservation)
You might consider converting all that to 12V. And LED
lighting. (or yadayada whatever)
And Coleman type pump-up gasoline lighting (or whatever) for
those rare peak needs.
That's all off the shelf and cheap.
If you wanted to REALLY save power (money) convert
to personal lighting. Like headband minors' LED lamps
powerd by say, 3 NiMH AAA rechargables. A single charge
could yeild days of late night novel reading etc.
Most are overpowered for this, use too many LEDS,
but at least one on the market is high-low switchable.
> I have looked around on the internet for plans for cheap
> > >solar or wind power setups but haven't found many (I am told they are
> > >there, but the ones i have found seem to be insanely complicated or
> > >way too expensive).
> >
............snip
> > Car alternators are all but useless. You need a permanent magnet
> > motor.
>
>
> I disagree. If the bits of cars are what he can get then that is what
> he has to work with.
>
> The alternator from a car needs to be turned at a few thousand RPM to
> make useful power. This is the point that causes the trouble.
The reason why cars switched to altenators is that
they charge well at or near engine idle speeds.
Since there is never a free lunch, I'm guessing
generators are more effecient at higher speeds.
I'm guessing that "gaikokujinkyofu...@"... has no
idea how much horsepower this requiers since
he mentioned a fan. Certainly anything smaller
than a bicycle-parts power train would be "under designed."
My gut feeling says "small motorcycle." For example,
he dreams of a Honda generator, well what size bike would
that dream engine power? That's also the source-horsepower
we are talking about; what he'll need to harness for his
dreams to come true.
I'm guessing that "gaikokujinkyofu...@"... is pretty much
looking for a free lunch, and we have nothing to offer him.
...like so many optimists, he underestemates the nature of
the problem. (...Moving from the laboritoriy or armchair
"physically possible" to the production line "doable.")
..........snip
> Take a oil drum and split it along its length.
>
> Make some sort of verticle shaft that is well supported.
>
> Run a couple of 2x4s crosswise and attach them firmly to the shaft.
>
> Attach the drum halves near the ends of the crossbars.
>
> Use something like a bicycle wheel as a pulley on the shaft to take to
> power off. Or perhaps take a bicyle chain etc to do it.
>
> Bicycle parts will give you about an x10 step up in speed. He will
> need more than that. Perhaps two x10 step ups could work.
Instantly we see another of the laws of economics at work.
It's almost always cheaper to hire an expert. Buy one.
I've seen a backpack collapsible solar unit that isn't
too expensive and shows promise and was desiged expecitely
for NGO bush use. However, "gaikokujinkyofu...@"'s power
needs may be too high.
--Doug
Google Results about 311,000 for
backpack solar "solar power" $120..$600.
Voltaic Backpack, Solar Backpack, Solar Bag
The Voltaic solar bags are mobile power generators,
designed to charge your devices ... Voltaic Backpack $249.
Silver Panels, Orange Panels, Green Panels ...
www.voltaicsystems.com/ - 31k
*Expedition Solar Power Packages
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Package system with one 32W folding rugged solar panel and a
16AH solar power center. Your Price $575.95 ...
www.ctsolar.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=4 -
39k -
Results about 192,000 for
backpack solar "solar power" $520..$950.
*Expedition Solar Power Packages
Our most popular with serious expedition users. Package
system with two 32W folding rugged solar panels and a 16AH
solar power center. Your Price $835.95 ...
www.ctsolar.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=4 -
39k -
(PeteCresswell)
>George F Smoot
Could that be the same person as the MIT student who, as part of
some kind of initiation, was used to measure the distance from
the campus to Boston in "Smoots"?
--
PeteCresswell
RW Salnick
One problem not considered is that a coil-driven alternator requires
field current whenever you *might* be able to get power. That is, you
will likely be supplying field power in the hopes that the wind will
blow enough to pay back the investment.
The PM alternator does not have this requirement - when the wind blows,
it makes power. When the wind stops, it uses no power.
bob
clareatsnyder.on.ca
wrote:
The generator solves several issues. You are not drawing field current
when speed is low (net loss) and it only connects to the battery when
it is charging (cutout relay function) It still needs to turn fast,
but if he can get a MILITARY truck generator it will be 24 volts, and
using a 12 volt regulator he will get useable output at lower speeds.
Anthony Matonak
> I think you guys are too picky about alternator 'efficiency'.
I'm no wind power expert. The guys that are wind power experts are
the ones who say car alternators aren't very good for wind turbines.
This Hugh Piggott guy has been working on low tech wind turbines
that folks can build themselves for years so I would think he would
qualify.
Anthony
no spam
> offices are waaaaaay out in the boonies (no electricity, no running
> water, nada). At the moment they have a cr*ppy chinese generator and
> funding is apparently so tight that we can't afford another generator
> (since the chinese generators have proven to have a life of about a
> year and the higher ups don't seem to have a concept of spending more
> money for a better generator [like a Honda generator]).
>
> Anyway, the point is that three of our offices are on the sides of
> mountains or very tall hills where 3/4th of the day it is *really*
> windy. Since we have very little funding i was trying to think of a
> cheap means of power and thought about putting together a "cheap" wind/
> generator from a truck/car alternator and fan and a few car batteries.
> The problem is, my background is agricultural development so i have
> little concept of if the afore mentioned setup would even work or how
> much it would power or how much it would cost. The most power our
> offices use is to power a TV or Computer plus flourecnet lights and
> thats it. I have looked around on the internet for plans for cheap
> solar or wind power setups but haven't found many (I am told they are
> there, but the ones i have found seem to be insanely complicated or
> way too expensive).
>
> So if anyone out there knows of such plans or NGOs that deal with such
> things (I tried geek corps but it appears that was a bit low tech for
> them) please let me know!
Maybe I'm a little dense here but is you have a dead genny or two why don't
you just rig a windmill to turn the power head off of the dead genny?
clareatsnyder.on.ca
wrote:
And they are already in use in Afganistan.
>
>> because American for some reason are the dumbest fucks around.
>>
>
>Perhaps you know nothing about the following:
>
>July 21, 1969
>John C Mather
>George F Smoot
>Roger D Kornberg
>Craig C Mello
>Andrew Z Fire
>
BobG
<anthony...@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote:
> I'm no wind power expert. The guys that are wind power experts are
> the ones who say car alternators aren't very good for wind turbines.
> This Hugh Piggott guy has been working on low tech wind turbines
> that folks can build themselves for years so I would think he would
> qualify.
Yeah, but he aint an electrical engineer. I am. He wants something
simple and mechanical like a Kettering ignition that a shade tree
mechanic can keep running. He doesnt want to rewrite the coil pwm vs
rpm schedule to tweak the generator efficiency.
clareatsnyder.on.ca
wrote:
>The reason why cars switched to altenators is that
>they charge well at or near engine idle speeds.
>Since there is never a free lunch, I'm guessing
>generators are more effecient at higher speeds.
>
Actually you are not quite right. The advantage of an alternator is it
can run at extremely high RPM without unwinding - unlike a generator,
so it can be "geared" to run fast enough at idle to put out a good
charge, and still not self-destruct at full speed. You will note
alternator pulleys are roughly HALF the size of the average generator
pulley.
clareatsnyder.on.ca
wrote:
But unless you have a "cogless" PMA, it will not start turning
without a significant wind speed (or at least a gust to get it going)
BobG
> Maybe I'm a little dense here but is you have a dead genny or two why don't
==============================
generator head has to spin at 3600 rpm to put out 60hz.... Honda
generators just spin a pma alternator and generate the AC with a 90
something % effcient solid state inverter. That's sort of my idea with
the el cheapo car alternator with an inexpensive microcontroller to
manage it.
clareatsnyder.on.ca
There is no arguement that they are not "very good", but beggars can't
be choosers, and with the wind available in Afganistan, particularly
in the hills, something is better than nothing - and properly done, an
alternator WILL produce useable power.Most of the time. And a lot less
work than building a Piggott axial flux machine.(which would, in all
likelihood, be destroyed by one means or another within a short period
of time anyway - may as well use something less labour intensive, and
possibly lower cost). I do like the DC generator idea better though.
mrda...@gmail.com
Cheap solution: learn to repair cheap Chinese generators. Maybe with
some carb cleaner...? Or do you need to rewind the generator?
Michael
Spehro Pefhany
You can always spin it up as a motor. ;-)
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
Ulysses
"kT" <cos...@lifeform.org> wrote in message
news:2ABAi.17$2I...@newsfe03.lga...> >> On Aug 27, 4:18 am, The Real Andy <thereala...@nospam.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 03:56:14 -0700, gaikokujinkyofu...@gmail.com
It seems like I should say something clever or witty here but all I can
think of is yea, you're right.
>
> --
> Get A Free Orbiter Space Flight Simulator :
> http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/orbit.html
Trygve Lillefosse
<ssp...@green-trust.org> wrote:
>
>
><gaikokuji...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1188212174....@r23g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>
>The most power our
>> offices use is to power a TV or Computer plus flourecnet lights and
>> thats it. I have looked around on the internet for plans for cheap
>> solar or wind power setups but haven't found many (I am told they are
>> there, but the ones i have found seem to be insanely complicated or
>> way too expensive).
>>
>> So if anyone out there knows of such plans or NGOs that deal with such
>> things (I tried geek corps but it appears that was a bit low tech for
>> them) please let me know!
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> -Gaiko
>>
>
>http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/axialflux/ has info on DIY $1 / watt wind
>gens (including tower) which will work a whole lot better than a car
>alternator.
I am on very thin ice here. But would it not be possible to descemle a
couple of alternators, and use the magnets and other stuff inside them
to build a windmill?
They might be able to use the fan or the fan hub and put better blades
on.
Or maybee even better, get some wheel bearings and stuff, to make a
low friction windmill hub. Guess they need to be able to weld a litle
bit though.
Just my 2cents, dont bite if I'm totaky off the charts.:-)
--
SEE YA !!!
Trygve Lillefosse
AKA - Malawi, The Fisher King
BobG
> There is no arguement that they are not "very good", but beggars can't
> be choosers, and with the wind available in Afganistan, particularly
> in the hills, something is better than nothing - and properly done, an
> alternator WILL produce useable power.Most of the time. And a lot less
> work than building a Piggott axial flux machine.(which would, in all
> likelihood, be destroyed by one means or another within a short period
> of time anyway - may as well use something less labour intensive, and
> possibly lower cost). I do like the DC generator idea better though.
How does one send email to a person with a handle of
'blankblankblankblank'? Why dont folks just use thei names? Are they
all hiding from bill collectors or something?
nicks...@ece.villanova.edu
>Aug 27, 1:58 pm, Anthony Matonak wrote:
>> This Hugh Piggott guy has been working on low tech wind turbines
>> that folks can build themselves for years so I would think he would
>> qualify.
>Yeah, but he aint an electrical engineer. I am. He wants something
>simple and mechanical like a Kettering ignition that a shade tree
>mechanic can keep running. He doesnt want to rewrite the coil pwm vs
>rpm schedule to tweak the generator efficiency.
Sounds interesting. I wonder what that means, exactly.
Nick, BSEE, MSEE
(PeteCresswell)
>How does one send email to a person with a handle of
>'blankblankblankblank'? Why dont folks just use thei names? Are they
>all hiding from bill collectors or something?
Dunno about names, but email addresses are a sensitive topic
because of spam.
Some people report almost zero spam in spite of posting their
email address in news groups. Others are deluged with the
stuff.
My vanity domain name gets something like 8,000 spams per day.
Granted they're mostly dictionary attacks where somebody takes a
list of first names and a list of last names and sends an email
to every combination.... but a couple hundred of them every day
are still to addresses that I foolishly used in NG posts.
I guess some ISPs spam filtering is better than others.
The ultimate seems tb Earthlink's challenge/response system.
People Who Know internet-wise despise it; but long term it looks
to me (who knows nothing) like a solution.
Short term I can see that it generates all sort of extraneous
email issuing the challenges - aggravating the existing spam
overload problems for mail servers. But long term, it seems
like if everybody had it spamming would cease tb profitable and
therefore go away.
--
PeteCresswell
ehsjr
> ehsjr wrote:
>>>>>>> offices use is to power a TV or Computer plus flourecnet lights and
>>>>>>> thats it. I have looked around on the internet for plans for cheap
>>>>>>> solar or wind power setups but haven't found many (I am told they
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> there, but the ones i have found seem to be insanely complicated or
>>>>>>> way too expensive).
>>>>>>> So if anyone out there knows of such plans or NGOs that deal with
>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>> things (I tried geek corps but it appears that was a bit low tech
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> them) please let me know!
>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>> -Gaiko
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
> machines.
No. We are talking about your claim that
"it ain't gonna happen" when it already has.
>
>>> because American for some reason are the dumbest fucks around.
>
>
>> Perhaps you know nothing about the following:
>>
>> July 21, 1969
>> John C Mather
>> George F Smoot
>> Roger D Kornberg
>> Craig C Mello
>> Andrew Z Fire
>
>
> Which explains why all you still have in the small class wind generators
> are Southwest Windpower and Windbuggers - crap without modifications.
>
No. It addresses your statement:
ehsjr
That would be Oliver, not George - but it's a humorous story. ;-)
Ed
Tater
> Anyway, the point is that three of our offices are on the sides of
> mountains or very tall hills where 3/4th of the day it is *really*
> windy. Since we have very little funding i was trying to think of a
> cheap means of power and thought about putting together a "cheap" wind/
> generator from a truck/car alternator and fan and a few car batteries.
how long does the office have to run per day?
I am amazed no one here asked if the DC motor inthe windshield wider
is permanent magnet. althernator will nee toomuch tourqe and too much
RPM.
figgure out how long you could run on a pattery powered UPS with extra
batteries, then figgure out how long you have to charge the batteries,
then see what can charge the batteries and do the math.
you might want to talk to your superioursabout the cost advantages.
how much does a chinese gen cost? equal to one AIRX400? Two? five?
Nobody
> I guess some ISPs spam filtering is better than others.
>
> The ultimate seems tb Earthlink's challenge/response system.
>
> People Who Know internet-wise despise it; but long term it looks
> to me (who knows nothing) like a solution.
>
> Short term I can see that it generates all sort of extraneous
> email issuing the challenges - aggravating the existing spam
> overload problems for mail servers. But long term, it seems
> like if everybody had it spamming would cease tb profitable and
> therefore go away.
The main problem with C/R systems is that they filter out a lot of wanted
email. Someone who is merely "inclined" (rather than "desperate") to send
you a message will send the email, get the challenge, then decide not to
bother (or simply not get the challenge because it's been flagged as spam
by an automated system, based upon the fact that thousands of
near-identical messages are sent to many different addresses).
If you want to sign up for any automated mailings (mailing lists,
email notification etc), you have to manually whitelist the sender address
(assuming that you know what it is before they try to send you email).
Someone running automated mailings isn't going to manually respond to
challenges.
Also, because of all the bogus challenges sent in response to spammers
using other people's addresses, C/R systems significantly increase the
risk that your own email address gets blacklisted for spamming.
do...@64.usenet.us.com
> Take a oil drum and split it along its length.
> Make some sort of verticle shaft that is well supported.
There's a windmill along the west side of Highway 101 in about San Rafael,
California, made up of maybe 20 drum halves circling over the top of a
garage.
It's readily visible from the highway, and it has been spinning for many
years. I don't know if it is generating any power, but I always presumed
so.
--
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5
Nobody
>>How does one send email to a person with a handle of
>>'blankblankblankblank'? Why dont folks just use thei names? Are they
>>all hiding from bill collectors or something?
>
> Dunno about names, but email addresses are a sensitive topic
> because of spam.
>
> Some people report almost zero spam in spite of posting their
> email address in news groups. Others are deluged with the
> stuff.
When posting to usenet, the risk of address harvesting depends upon where
the address appears. The From: header is the highest risk, followed by
other headers, with the message body as the lowest risk.
To harvest addresses from the From: header, spammers only need to retrieve
the summary listing (what the newsreader uses to generate the
group summary pane; sometimes inaccurately referred to as the "headers").
Harvesting addresses from other headers requires the spammer to download
actual message headers, which requires a separate NNTP command for each
message, and significantly more bandwidth.
Harvesting addresses from message bodies requires downloading the entire
message, which requires more bandwidth than just downloading the headers.
It also risks bloating their lists with lots of Message-IDs (which look
like email addresses, but aren't).
In general, harvesting from summary listings provides the greatest
benefit/cost ratio to the spammer, so many of them will stick to that
mechanism.
Neon John
>Per BobG:
>>How does one send email to a person with a handle of
>>'blankblankblankblank'? Why dont folks just use thei names? Are they
>>all hiding from bill collectors or something?
>
>Dunno about names, but email addresses are a sensitive topic
>because of spam.
>
>Some people report almost zero spam in spite of posting their
>email address in news groups. Others are deluged with the
>stuff.
My email address is easily available on my website in a spambot-proof javascript
format. It'll never appear in a Usenet post.
My web hosting company (dreamhost.com, highly recommended) has decent spam filtering.
My daily report shows about 400 spams trapped. Perhaps 30 get through. Agent's
Bayesian spam filtering traps all but one or two. It learns from each leaker that
gets tagged as spam so it just keeps getting better.
Bottom line: Humans can easily reach me while spambots practically never do. I think
that's a fine solution.
As far as using nyms instead of names, I almost never respond to people who don't use
something that looks like a name. It might be a real name but it's something to keep
track of personalities with. I figure that someone with zero identity probably also
has zero content to offer and so I ignore 'em.
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
What do you call 10 blondes standing in a row? Pneumatic air line.
The Real Andy
<ne...@lillefosse.NOSPAM.org> wrote:
>On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 11:03:39 -0400, "Steve Spence"
><ssp...@green-trust.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>><gaikokuji...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:1188212174....@r23g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>The most power our
>>> offices use is to power a TV or Computer plus flourecnet lights and
>>> thats it. I have looked around on the internet for plans for cheap
>>> solar or wind power setups but haven't found many (I am told they are
>>> there, but the ones i have found seem to be insanely complicated or
>>> way too expensive).
>>>
>>> So if anyone out there knows of such plans or NGOs that deal with such
>>> things (I tried geek corps but it appears that was a bit low tech for
>>> them) please let me know!
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> -Gaiko
>>>
>>
>>http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/axialflux/ has info on DIY $1 / watt wind
>>gens (including tower) which will work a whole lot better than a car
>>alternator.
>
>I am on very thin ice here. But would it not be possible to descemle a
>couple of alternators, and use the magnets and other stuff inside them
>to build a windmill?
The problem it that car alternators do not have magnets.
The Real Andy
Or hook the alternator(s) to the genny motor, provided its not the
motor that is stuffed :)
>Michael
Mauried
Firstly how windy is "really windy".
One of the reasons that commercial wind generators are expensive is
the mechanics and electronics needed to stop the blades from flying
apart in strong winds, but still be able to generate useful power at
lower wind speeds.
Wind power is related to the cube of the wind speed.
As others have indicated, car alternators are a poor choice as they
need high RPM to make useful power.
To get a few hundred watts from a wind generator you will need a blade
diameter of around 1 metre, and such a windmill will spin relatively
slowly , less than 1000 RPM.
The Air X , which is a very popular small wind turbine makes 400 watts
at 25 knots, but its expensive because of the rare earth magnets used
in the alternator and the carbon fibre blades which are needed to make
the unit self feathering in high winds.
Its not a trivial task to make wind turbines that are reliable and
self feathering.
MooseFET
[....]
> >I am on very thin ice here. But would it not be possible to descemle a
> >couple of alternators, and use the magnets and other stuff inside them
> >to build a windmill?
>
> The problem it that car alternators do not have magnets.
Any alternator that has been installed and used on a car will "build
up" if you wire it up and give it a spin. There is enough
magnetization left to overcome the rectifier's forward drop.
Martin Griffith
Ulysses
>
> At least I see people now discussing the subtle nuances of it here.
>
> C'mon people, this is not a difficult problem to solve. I've already got
> an excellent set of aluminum airfoil blades you can use for the motors
> and electronics, if you ever get around to doing some real engineering.
I was just agreeing with American dumbfucks in general. There are some very
smart people in the USA and a lot of them in this NG. However, whenever I
go to get something repaired I more often than not discover that I know more
about it than they do which usually is not saying much. The same thing
happens when I go to buy auto parts etc.--the people behind the counter
don't know anything about what they are selling. Then you have the
government. Recently Congress passed a law requiring minimum credit card
payments to double from 2% to 4% of the balance. The result is an enormous
increase in credit card deliquencies, foreclosures, bankrupcies, and
mortgage companies going out of business. How dumb is that?
Joel Kolstad
news:13d8oce...@corp.supernews.com...
> The same thing
> happens when I go to buy auto parts etc.--the people behind the counter
> don't know anything about what they are selling.
In a sense this is "your" (the consumer's) fault: Would you go to an auto
parts shop with knowledgeable salespeople if the prices were 20% higher?
Most people wouldn't, so the folks behind the counters are generally making
minimum wager or a bit higher. If you're lucky, you might find some kid
working there who's a gear head and does know a thing or two, but you sure
can't count on it.
> Then you have the
> government. Recently Congress passed a law requiring minimum credit card
> payments to double from 2% to 4% of the balance. The result is an enormous
> increase in credit card deliquencies, foreclosures, bankrupcies, and
> mortgage companies going out of business. How dumb is that?
That's somewhat difficult to answer and largely depends on how much you think
the government should be "protecting" consumers from themselves. I'm sure
there were plenty of banks that would have much preferred to keep sucking 2% a
month from people indefinitely rather than having them declare bankruptcy and
getting nothing.
Most of the mortage companies going out of business right now were engaged in
such risky practices that they fully deserve it; they probably never should
have been allowed to exist in the first place.
---Joel
Trygve Lillefosse
Shows that I dont know mutch about car alternators...:-)
But then again, if they get hold of old, broken down TV sets, I belive
they have a pretty powerful magnet inside
Trygve Lillefosse
Seemed interesting, but quite long and complex at first look. Will
store it for a rainy day. (The season is closing in at a fast rate.)
gearhead
> I am presently working for an NGO in Afghanistan and some of our feild
> cheap means of power and thought about putting together a "cheap" wind/
> generator
Run don't walk to www.fieldlines.com
clareatsnyder.on.ca
>>I am presently working for an NGO in Afghanistan and some of our feild
>> offices are waaaaaay out in the boonies (no electricity, no running
>> water, nada). At the moment they have a cr*ppy chinese generator and
>> funding is apparently so tight that we can't afford another generator
>> (since the chinese generators have proven to have a life of about a
>> year and the higher ups don't seem to have a concept of spending more
>> money for a better generator [like a Honda generator]).
>>
>> Anyway, the point is that three of our offices are on the sides of
>> mountains or very tall hills where 3/4th of the day it is *really*
>> windy. Since we have very little funding i was trying to think of a
>> cheap means of power and thought about putting together a "cheap" wind/
>> generator from a truck/car alternator and fan and a few car batteries.
>> The problem is, my background is agricultural development so i have
>> little concept of if the afore mentioned setup would even work or how
>> much it would power or how much it would cost. The most power our
>> offices use is to power a TV or Computer plus flourecnet lights and
>> thats it. I have looked around on the internet for plans for cheap
>> solar or wind power setups but haven't found many (I am told they are
>> there, but the ones i have found seem to be insanely complicated or
>> way too expensive).
>>
>> So if anyone out there knows of such plans or NGOs that deal with such
>> things (I tried geek corps but it appears that was a bit low tech for
>> them) please let me know!
>
>Maybe I'm a little dense here but is you have a dead genny or two why don't
>you just rig a windmill to turn the power head off of the dead genny?
>
I suspect because the dead genny is an AC unit and would need a
constant 3600 RPM -----
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
clareatsnyder.on.ca
<spef...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:
>> But unless you have a "cogless" PMA, it will not start turning
>>without a significant wind speed (or at least a gust to get it going)
>
>You can always spin it up as a motor. ;-)
>
>Best regards,
>Spehro Pefhany
Yea, if you have a special servo driver to rotate the phases to get
it started - note, I said PMA, not PMG
clareatsnyder.on.ca
<ne...@lillefosse.NOSPAM.org> wrote:
>I am on very thin ice here. But would it not be possible to descemle a
>couple of alternators, and use the magnets and other stuff inside them
>to build a windmill?
>They might be able to use the fan or the fan hub and put better blades
>on.
>Or maybee even better, get some wheel bearings and stuff, to make a
>low friction windmill hub. Guess they need to be able to weld a litle
>bit though.
>
>Just my 2cents, dont bite if I'm totaky off the charts.:-)
No magnets in the average alternator, so the thin ice may just have
melted.
clareatsnyder.on.ca
wrote:
>I was just agreeing with American dumbfucks in general. There are some very
>smart people in the USA and a lot of them in this NG. However, whenever I
>go to get something repaired I more often than not discover that I know more
>about it than they do which usually is not saying much. The same thing
>happens when I go to buy auto parts etc.--the people behind the counter
>don't know anything about what they are selling. Then you have the
>government. Recently Congress passed a law requiring minimum credit card
>payments to double from 2% to 4% of the balance. The result is an enormous
>increase in credit card deliquencies, foreclosures, bankrupcies, and
>mortgage companies going out of business. How dumb is that?
>>
>> --
>> Get A Free Orbiter Space Flight Simulator :
>> http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/orbit.html
>
Just about as dumb as giving credit to those who cannot pay, and
allowing them to go deeper in debt every month because the interest is
higher than the minimum payment.
clareatsnyder.on.ca
>
>America is a complete loss but wind generators still have possibilities.
The reason America is a total loss is because Americans (and
Canadians) are generally too cheap to pay for quality, so virtually
everything available in both countries is made in CHINA. No
manufacturing worth mentioning left in North America. (only south of
the Rio Grande)
clareatsnyder.on.ca
<ne...@lillefosse.NOSPAM.org> wrote:
>
>Shows that I dont know mutch about car alternators...:-)
>
>But then again, if they get hold of old, broken down TV sets, I belive
>they have a pretty powerful magnet inside
Wrong again. Microwave ovens do, though.
Mauried
wrote:
You also need to think about how you are going to get the power from
the generator to the load.
The windmill needs to be able to turn thru 360 degrees so you just
cant run wires from the alternator down to the ground.
Most wind turbines have internal slip rings to feed the power from the
turbine to the load regardless of the direction of the windmill.
Not the easiest thing to make.
Maybe you might like to look at a simple VAWT.
Anthony Matonak
> On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 gearhead <nos...@billburg.com> wrote:
>
>> Run don't walk to www.fieldlines.com
>
> You also need to think about how you are going to get the power from
> the generator to the load.
> The windmill needs to be able to turn thru 360 degrees so you just
> cant run wires from the alternator down to the ground.
Why not? Lots of people do just that. On average, the turbine is
as likely to spin one direction as the other so the wire doesn't
get wound up much. You just need to have a way to look at it
once or twice a year and unwind it.
The big utility turbines use a counter that counts how many turns
it's gone left and right and when there is no wind they turn the
thing around to zero it out.
Anthony
Duane C. Johnson
clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:
> Trygve Lillefosse <ne...@lillefosse.NOSPAM.org> wrote:
> > I am on very thin ice here. But would it not be
> > possible to disassemble a couple of alternators,
> > and use the magnets and other stuff inside them
> > to build a windmill?
> > They might be able to use the fan or the fan hub
> > and put better blades on.
> > Or maybe even better, get some wheel bearings
> > and stuff, to make a low friction windmill hub.
> > Guess they need to be able to weld a little bit
> > though.
> > Just my 2cents, don't bite if I'm totally off the
> > charts.:-)
> No magnets in the average alternator, so the thin
> ice may just have melted.
A couple of years ago I was talking to a couple of
automotive design engineers. They said, some of the
Japanese cars had alternators with relatively weak
permanent magnets in their rotors in addition to the
normal electromagnetic windings. The theory was that
these cars have to maintain a fairly large minimal
output current all the time. I suppose for the
computer and ignition systems.
Of course the normal windings kicked in when larger
switched loads are required such as for lighting.
Do any of you out there have any part numbers for
these alternator types?
Duane
--
Home of the $35 Solar Tracker Receiver
http://www.redrok.com/led3xassm.htm [*]
Powered by \ \ \ //|
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White Bear Lake, Minnesota === \ / \ |
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red...@redrok.com (my email: address) \ |
http://www.redrok.com (Web site) ===
Frithiof Andreas Jensen
"Jim Thompson" <To-Email-Use-Th...@My-Web-Site.com> skrev i en
meddelelse news:q7q5d3husfa6aqacj...@4ax.com...
>
> Small wind generators have been discussed on SED in some considerable
> engineering detail that pointed out the terribly low efficiency of
> such a device... see Don Lancaster's comments.
>
What kind of "efficiency" would that be - all *I* personally care about is
Watt-Hour/USD!?
I.e: Is is economically viable?
> But you're probably some dumb-fuck leftist weenie who thinks wishing
> it so makes it so ;-)
>
> ...Jim Thompson
> --
> | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
> | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
> | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
> | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
> | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
> | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
>
> America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave
Frithiof Andreas Jensen
"Ulysses" <eatm...@spamola.com/> skrev i en meddelelse
news:13d8oce...@corp.supernews.com...
> I was just agreeing with American dumbfucks in general. There are some
> very
> smart people in the USA and a lot of them in this NG. However, whenever I
> go to get something repaired I more often than not discover that I know
> more
> about it than they do which usually is not saying much. The same thing
> happens when I go to buy auto parts etc.--the people behind the counter
> don't know anything about what they are selling.
Minimum wage implies minimum skills - what would motivate that guy/gal
behind the counter to take an interest in a McJob? There is no future to be
had in the nether regions of a chain-store business. Everybody knows it and
acts rationally.
> Then you have the
> government.
...screwing everyone over....that's what *they do* ;-)
> Recently Congress passed a law requiring minimum credit card
> payments to double from 2% to 4% of the balance. The result is an
> enormous
> increase in credit card deliquencies, foreclosures, bankrupcies, and
> mortgage companies going out of business. How dumb is that?
That's a good thing: Assets have been overinflated for the last 15 years or
so due to cheap credit; if a few of the businesses that make money out of
selling slave chains to the feeble go tits up as well, Fine & Just. If
(when, actually) interest rates soar and bond holders gets stuck with the
shit bag: Brilliant!!
MooseFET
<frithiof.jen...@diespammerdie.jensen.tdcadsl.dk> wrote:
> "Jim Thompson" <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-I...@My-Web-Site.com> skrev i en
> meddelelsenews:q7q5d3husfa6aqacj...@4ax.com...
>
>
>
> > Small wind generators have been discussed on SED in some considerable
> > engineering detail that pointed out the terribly low efficiency of
> > such a device... see Don Lancaster's comments.
>
> What kind of "efficiency" would that be - all *I* personally care about is
> Watt-Hour/USD!?
>
> I.e: Is is economically viable?
Make that "useful Watt-hour/USD". One of the problems with the very
efficient wind generators is that they only really work in a strongish
but not too strong of wind. They make a whole lot of power when the
wind is right but you have to find a way to store for when it isn't.
Large low tech designs can often make useful power over a wider range
of wind speeds.
MooseFET
> On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 14:57:13 -0700, gearhead <nos...@billburg.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Aug 27, 3:56 am, gaikokujinkyofu...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> I am presently working for an NGO in Afghanistan and some of our feild
> >> offices are > windy. Since we have very little funding i was trying to think of a
> >> cheap means of power and thought about putting together a "cheap" wind/
> >> generator
>
> >Run don't walk towww.fieldlines.com
>
> You also need to think about how you are going to get the power from
> the generator to the load.
> The windmill needs to be able to turn thru 360 degrees so you just
> cant run wires from the alternator down to the ground.
> Most wind turbines have internal slip rings to feed the power from the
If you use any of the turbine types that have a vertical shaft, all of
the problems with wind direction are or can be solved without slip
rings.
The OP was after something for making local power that had to be low
cost. I suspect that if he had to manually point it into the wind it
would be just fine for him.
LVMarc
> I am presently working for an NGO in Afghanistan and some of our feild
> water, nada). At the moment they have a cr*ppy chinese generator and
> funding is apparently so tight that we can't afford another generator
> (since the chinese generators have proven to have a life of about a
> year and the higher ups don't seem to have a concept of spending more
> money for a better generator [like a Honda generator]).
>
> Anyway, the point is that three of our offices are on the sides of
> mountains or very tall hills where 3/4th of the day it is *really*
> cheap means of power and thought about putting together a "cheap" wind/
> The problem is, my background is agricultural development so i have
> little concept of if the afore mentioned setup would even work or how
> much it would power or how much it would cost. The most power our
> offices use is to power a TV or Computer plus flourecnet lights and
> thats it. I have looked around on the internet for plans for cheap
> solar or wind power setups but haven't found many (I am told they are
> there, but the ones i have found seem to be insanely complicated or
> way too expensive).
>
> So if anyone out there knows of such plans or NGOs that deal with such
> things (I tried geek corps but it appears that was a bit low tech for
> them) please let me know!
>
>
> -Gaiko
>
I suggest that you consider the older Volkswagen generators, pre 1972 vw
bug part for the conversion source. I believe that using the automotive
parts, will provide a super low cost parts lists. the vw generator
works a a slower rpm level..Happy designing AND good luck
Marc
marc
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=300142128658&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT&ih=020
link to actual mixer site
www.fwt.niat.net amazing antennas
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=LVMarc
video instructions antenna VOIP adapter
BS benevolent Stuff for engineers
Steve Spence
"Trygve Lillefosse" <ne...@lillefosse.NOSPAM.org> wrote in message
news:rq76d312acminklq7...@4ax.com...
>
> I am on very thin ice here. But would it not be possible to descemle a
> couple of alternators, and use the magnets and other stuff inside them
> to build a windmill?
> They might be able to use the fan or the fan hub and put better blades
> on.
> Or maybee even better, get some wheel bearings and stuff, to make a
> low friction windmill hub. Guess they need to be able to weld a litle
> bit though.
>
> Just my 2cents, dont bite if I'm totaky off the charts.:-)
>
> --
> SEE YA !!!
> Trygve Lillefosse
> AKA - Malawi, The Fisher King
There are no magnets in a car alternator
--
Steve Spence
Director, Green-Trust
http://www.green-trust.org
http://www.green-trust.org/bookshop/
Steve Spence
"MooseFET" <kens...@rahul.net> wrote in message
news:1188308572.5...@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
Not without the field coils energized. I saw a circuit once for self
energizing the coils. It's still a parasitic load.
Trygve Lillefosse
>On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 21:13:05 +0200, Trygve Lillefosse
><ne...@lillefosse.NOSPAM.org> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>Shows that I dont know mutch about car alternators...:-)
>>
>>But then again, if they get hold of old, broken down TV sets, I belive
>>they have a pretty powerful magnet inside
>
>
>Wrong again. Microwave ovens do, though.
And loudspeakers? (He wispered with a humble woice.)
Rich Grise
> On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 21:24:48 +1000, The Real Andy
>>>I am on very thin ice here. But would it not be possible to descemle a
>>>couple of alternators, and use the magnets and other stuff inside them
>>>to build a windmill?
>>
>>The problem it that car alternators do not have magnets.
>
> Shows that I dont know mutch about car alternators...:-)
>
> But then again, if they get hold of old, broken down TV sets, I belive
> they have a pretty powerful magnet inside
Well, they have an ion trap magnet about the size of a dime, which might
stick to a refrigerator, but that's about it.
If you want magnets, tear apart an old maggie or disk drive. ;-)
Hope This Helps!
Rich
Paul Hovnanian P.E.
>
> I am presently working for an NGO in Afghanistan and some of our feild
> offices are waaaaaay out in the boonies (no electricity, no running
> water, nada). At the moment they have a cr*ppy chinese generator and
> funding is apparently so tight that we can't afford another generator
> (since the chinese generators have proven to have a life of about a
> year and the higher ups don't seem to have a concept of spending more
> money for a better generator [like a Honda generator]).
>
> Anyway, the point is that three of our offices are on the sides of
> mountains or very tall hills where 3/4th of the day it is *really*
> windy. Since we have very little funding i was trying to think of a
> cheap means of power and thought about putting together a "cheap" wind/
> generator from a truck/car alternator and fan and a few car batteries.
> The problem is, my background is agricultural development so i have
> little concept of if the afore mentioned setup would even work or how
> much it would power or how much it would cost. The most power our
> offices use is to power a TV or Computer plus flourecnet lights and
> thats it. I have looked around on the internet for plans for cheap
> solar or wind power setups but haven't found many (I am told they are
> there, but the ones i have found seem to be insanely complicated or
> way too expensive).
>
> So if anyone out there knows of such plans or NGOs that deal with such
> things (I tried geek corps but it appears that was a bit low tech for
> them) please let me know!
Here's one place you can go for homebrewed systems of all types:
http://www.homepower.com/
Note: Even at a do-it-yourself level, these systems aren't going to be
cheap. If you can't afford a decent Honda generator, this won't be easy.
The propellor design is somewhat critical if you want any sort of
efficiency. Just any old fan won't do.
--
Paul Hovnanian pa...@hovnanian.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The blinking cursor writes; and having writ, blinks on.
Arnold Walker
"LVMarc" <LVM...@att.net> wrote in message
news:2qfBi.85748$Mu5....@newsfe15.phx...
were made to spin as slowly as 150 rpm's.
While at the same time delivering 10Kw......checkout Preston steam website
for units.Also got some 110 volt DC room fans.
if you wanted smaller units.
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Steve Young
news:46d56655$1...@newsfeed.slurp.net...
> "MooseFET" <kens...@rahul.net> wrote in message
> news:1188308572.5...@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
>> On Aug 28, 4:24 am, The Real Andy <thereala...@nospam.com> wrote:
>> [....]
>>> The problem it that car alternators do not have magnets.
>> Any alternator that has been installed and used on a car will "build
>> up" if you wire it up and give it a spin. There is enough
>> magnetization left to overcome the rectifier's forward drop.
> Not without the field coils energized. I saw a circuit once for self
> energizing the coils. It's still a parasitic load.
Perhaps give the field a split second jolt from a battery, when an rpm sensor
indicates adequate speed. Use a diode, resistor, capacitor to have the output
latch it into operation. The generator would engage and drop out
automatically. Crude functioning circuitry would be cake, with lots of room to
expand sophistication.
BobG
> The propellor design is somewhat critical if you want any sort of
> efficiency. Just any old fan won't do.
The model plane guys have variable pitch props now. Instead of
fretting about the thing blowing apart from centrifigual force in a
big wind, just feather the prop. A $5 microcontroller and a gearhead
motor could modulate the blade pitch to control the torque and speed
under varying wind profiles. Work smarter not harder. Technology.
Rich Grise
Do it mechanically. Build a centrifugal governor into the nose cap
(or whatever it's called), and have its output feather the blades as
needed.
Cheers!
Rich
MooseFET
> "MooseFET" <kensm...@rahul.net> wrote in message
>
> news:1188308572.5...@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Aug 28, 4:24 am, The Real Andy <thereala...@nospam.com> wrote:
> > [....]
> >> >I am on very thin ice here. But would it not be possible to descemle a
> >> >couple of alternators, and use the magnets and other stuff inside them
> >> >to build a windmill?
>
> >> The problem it that car alternators do not have magnets.
>
> > Any alternator that has been installed and used on a car will "build
> > up" if you wire it up and give it a spin. There is enough
> > magnetization left to overcome the rectifier's forward drop.
>
> Not without the field coils energized. I saw a circuit once for self
> energizing the coils. It's still a parasitic load.
Have you tried it?
You only need enough perm in the magnetic parts to make a couple of
volts to get the thing to build up.
BobG
A mechanical solution would have been an excellent suggestion in the
50s or 60s before electronics. I think my idea of having the pitch be
a function of wind speed wins two ways... dont need to slow the blade
down in high wind, and it will allow power to be generated in much
lighter breezes than with a fixed pitch. Will your mechanical design
be able to adjust pitch to handle both these situations of high and
low speed wind?
MooseFET
> "Steve Spence" <sspe...@green-trust.org> wrote in message
>
> news:46d56655$1...@newsfeed.slurp.net...
>
> > "MooseFET" <kensm...@rahul.net> wrote in message
> >news:1188308572.5...@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
> >> On Aug 28, 4:24 am, The Real Andy <thereala...@nospam.com> wrote:
> >> [....]
> >>> The problem it that car alternators do not have magnets.
> >> Any alternator that has been installed and used on a car will "build
> >> up" if you wire it up and give it a spin. There is enough
> >> magnetization left to overcome the rectifier's forward drop.
> > Not without the field coils energized. I saw a circuit once for self
> > energizing the coils. It's still a parasitic load.
>
> Perhaps give the field a split second jolt from a battery, when an rpm sensor
> indicates adequate speed. Use a diode, resistor, capacitor to have the output
> latch it into operation. The generator would engage and drop out
> automatically. Crude functioning circuitry would be cake, with lots of room to
> expand sophistication.
You don't have to do that. When the rotor is going at 1000RPM you
will see a small voltage on the stator even with the rotor not hooked
up. This is enought to get the buildup started.
Craig Ruff
>wrote:
>>Anyway, the point is that three of our offices are on the sides of
>>mountains or very tall hills where 3/4th of the day it is *really*
>>windy. Since we have very little funding i was trying to think of a
>>cheap means of power and thought about putting together a "cheap" wind/
>>generator from a truck/car alternator and fan and a few car batteries.
Check out http://www.otherpower.com/ which has all kinds of good
information about this subject. They build alternators from scratch
along with the turbine blades, etc. Various projects of this type
are documented with descriptions and lots of pictures. They describe
the issues with different methods in some detail. For wind power,
start at http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_wind.html
Craig Ruff
The Real Andy <there...@nospam.com> wrote:
>Car alternators are all but useless. You need a permanent magnet
>motor.
Check out http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_wind.html for good
information about scratch built wind power systems.
clareatsnyder.on.ca
Well, I was service manager for a Ja[anese car dealership for 10
years and never saw one - and have not seen one or credible refference
to one since.
clareatsnyder.on.ca
wrote:
On SOME alternators - but very few.
Arnold Walker
"Steve Young" <bowtieATbrightdslDOTnet> wrote in message
news:FIqdnb_Yj-m8X0jb...@bright.net...
generator head.
So you have something like a 50Mw generator kicking 3 phrase 58000KVA with
something like 13800VDC kicking the exciters.
Kill the excitors and the generator drops off line.
Cars used to have permanenet magnet generators ,but alternators are cheaper
and last longer.
And smaller for a given power output, look at some of the 1950's and
before..... auto generators.
At the same time you can get ready made junk for that windmill ...think
antique elevator motor/ generator.
100VDC and 50 to a 100amp as slow as 150rpms Max......never seen one that
would spin more 750 rpms,though most are 500rpms max.
You can get autogyro blades ready made out to 25ft............for about 1500
to 2500 dollars depending on the material.
And build a cable tethered gyro generator.....blades will autorotate at
about 425 rpms.
The research units making the news, use external electicity to power up the
rotors to alitude, then autorotate under computer control
like a very large RC gyro or military drone.Wind is higher speed at
altitude.
But then, you may not be interested in 5-10KW of windpower.
Another way of getting the wind power to the generators is stacking the
blades on a jack shaft ...one of the previous wind threads showed
a unit with 6 blade assemblies spaced out on the jack shaft about every
4ft.To reduce wind turbence into the next set of blades.
A high tech version of the old multi blade farm windmills..... that worked
in lower wind conditions and with higher starting torque.
clareatsnyder.on.ca
Properly done, yes.
Paul Burke
>>>> The model plane guys have variable pitch props now. Instead of
>>>> fretting about the thing blowing apart from centrifigual force in a
>>>> big wind, just feather the prop. A $5 microcontroller and a gearhead
>>>> motor could modulate the blade pitch to control the torque and speed
>>>> under varying wind profiles. Work smarter not harder. Technology.
>>> Do it mechanically. Build a centrifugal governor into the nose cap
>>> (or whatever it's called), and have its output feather the blades as
>>> needed.
Should be easy to let the rotor move back against a spring as the wind
pressure increases, and use that to feather the blades via a simple cam
mechanism.
gearhead
> Cars used to have permanenet magnet generators
Which cars? Are you sure?
>From what I know of antique vehicles with dc generators -- series-
wound, with segmented commutators -- they did not use magnets. I
speak from my experience with antique Harleys and GM trucks.
The only vehicles I know use magnets are motorcycles, and they use
them in alternators, not dc generators. I've seen old British bikes
and late model Harleys like that.
The old dc generators had pole shoes made of soft iron with enough
magnetic remanence to get them started back up again, without the use
of magnets. Same thing MooseFet has been saying about alternators --
they will start up without feeding the field. With alternators, you
may have to spin them up to make it happen.
Fact: lots of people use their alternators in something called a "one-
wire" setup. This means there is no "tickler" current from the
battery to feed the field. Depending on the vehicle, this may mean
that starting the car into an idle will not get the alternator started
charging. You have to gun the engine, if sitting, or just drive it,
which will get the rpm's up to where the field gets over that hump to
where it can feed itself.
For the original poster:
the two drawbacks of car alternators re windpower that I've hear of
(not speaking from experience) are the spindly little bearing, and the
extra I squared R losses in the field (rotor).
If you ever took apart a car alternator, you would see what I mean
about the bearing, really dinky. In particular, it is not a thrust
bearing.
People use wheel bearings instead, when they build their own.
Magnitudes more robust.
Arnold Walker
"BobG" <bobga...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1188433204.3...@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
the C130 they actually will reverve.
Pilot do that for short runways.
Arnold Walker
"Paul Burke" <pa...@scazon.com> wrote in message
news:5jo2af...@mid.individual.net...
that.Would change pitch fast enorgh to govern turbine engines on a C130 and
more than a few light piston aircraft .
Arnold Walker
"Paul Hovnanian P.E." <pa...@seanet.com> wrote in message
news:46D5BAC6...@seanet.com...
interest in a punky
sized generator .
>
> --
> Paul Hovnanian pa...@hovnanian.com
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> The blinking cursor writes; and having writ, blinks on.
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Paul Hovnanian P.E.
Two issues here: Horsepower (the windmill involves much higher forces
than any model airplane) and cost. The OP stated that a decent (i.e.
Honda) generator might be beyond their means. This pretty much rules out
anything but the simplest rig.
One other thing I just thought of was something like the windmill
battery chargers people use on sail boats. Although these units aren't
cheap (nothing on a boat is :-|), one can use their design as a start.