What would Hank Williams or Woody Guthrie say?
anti...@earthlink.net
Gentry, Aaron Tippin, Lee Greenwood, Neal McCoy, Kenny Rogers, Randy
Travis, Phil Vassar, The Warren Brothers, Dusty Drake, Hank Williams
Jr., Alabama, The Charlie Daniels Band, David Ball, and Blackhawk.
What do these artists have in common? Cutting edge musical geniuses?
Gifted songwriters able to speak to a wide range of audiences?
Innovators in their genre?
Err, no.
Actually what they all have in common is that they all appear on a
rather strange product. Its name is "Patriotic Country." It thus
contains songs like "Where The Stars And Stripes And The Eagle Fly,"
"This Ain't No Rag, It's A Flag," and "Back Where I Come From" In other
words, maudlin, xenophobic, black/white dichotomous sentiments, and the
lack of any attempt at rational political analysis, all set to fiddles
and pedal steel guitars, and to be marketed and sold at Wal-Mart.
I listened to a bit of this schlock on a plane ride a while back just
to see how much of it I could take. The answer was - not very much.
What little I could take made me want to drink, and heavily.
I'm reminded that some of the greats of the genre, like Johnny Cash,
Hank Williams, George Jones, and Willie Nelson were neither knee-jerk
reactionaries nor whores to the ruling political party. Then again, Lee
Greenwood, Toby Keith, and Kenny Chesney are no Johnny Cashes. Just
Nashville hacks, soon to be forgotten.
Here's the link to this piece of product.
andrew luke nichols
<anti...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1124747934.8...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Like on Sean Hannity's show. that one country song. Even Germany in World
War II had patriotic music. Music is a powerful medium to spread messages.
IE: Rap Music to kill cops by, IE: Satanic Rock to capture a generation of
youth.
Music has power, just like words have power. After all, God spoke, and
light was created.
Country music will not make that great of an impact on our domestic
situation nor on our foreign policy. All it really will do is incite a
minority of mind controlled slaves to patriotic fevor, and do whatever their
leader and party wants. IE: If Bush wanted to invade Iceland, Rush, Sean,
they all would push this down the throats of well meaning, if not very
deceived Americans, and they would accept it, with open arms. Oh yeah
Brother! Let's get those Icelanders!
A good ruling class knows how to manipulate the populace of any nation into
patriotic fevor. Thank God a few of us have ears to hear and eyes to see.
We are the ones they worry about, cause an informed populace is a dangerous
populace.
Ok, you may go back to American Idol now.
"MIDIcian" (tm)
say), but I think Woody would say this - "BUSH SUCKS!!!!".
Stan
Buddy from Brooklyn at Work
War, and being ten years older than you (I think) let me say that I
like some of that patriotic music. I grew up in the jingoistic McCarthy
days so I can appreciate this type music, but I also see through it.
As the Iraqis struggle over a constitution that might send women
back into the burqas, and the Islamists are about to establish a type
of Sharia law; it makes you wonder WHY we went there. Where as some
said (even here) that we'd be there 6 months it's been 2 years and
almost 2,000 American boys dead to get them to want to become (ta da)
an Islamic Republic. Hell,we woulda been better off with Saddam. He
kept the Imams in their proper place. And I went to the link provided
and was bemused to see that it said send a CD to a soldier. Hell, if
you want to send them ANYTHING how about some rosary beads, and body
armor because the pentagon recently told the president that it might
take up to four more .years to do what we went there to do. Shades of
Viet Nam. And the general in charge recently told the press that he
needed about 100,000 more troops, right after the president said we
were doing just fine with what we had there. And he was promptly fired.
If you're going to send a CD to a soldier in Iraq: make sure it's
bullet proof so that he will have some extra protection that he wont
get from the music (which I like, by the way).
recsec
And what happened to the agreement to NOT speak politics or religion in this
group? Did you happen to forget about it? Or have you come under the belief
that everyone in here is a member of the extreme left? This IS a mixed
company group you know? So why is then that you feel the need to go & start
YET MORE political HORSESHIT in here???
Why have YOU broken the agreement?????????????????????????????????
Billy
--
Justice will be served
And the battle will rage
This big dog will fight
When you rattle his cage
And you'll be sorry that you messed with
The U.S. of A.
`Cause we`ll put a boot in your ass
It`s the American way
Courtesy of the Red, White, & Blue (The Angry American) by Toby Keith
Across the world, our military is standing directly between the American
people and the worst dangers in the world, and Americans are grateful to
have such brave defenders.
President Bush at the Naval Academy Graduation ceremony in Annapolis,
Maryland May 27th 2005
beatl...@aol.com
Additionally, if you like gardening or CSI, you might post to
newsgroups dedicated to said topics. I believe it is logical to assume
that people genreally read and post to groups that are themed to their
particular interests. So, if one happened to be, say, a liberal who
digs the Ramones, one would tend to frequent venues tilted towards such
subjects; hooking up with people who share a common interest. However,
if a liberal who digs the Ramones crossposts into three country music
themed groups and one George Bush themed group, authoring a message
specifically designed to goad the regular readers/contributors of the
aforementioned newsgroups, that is simply a classic case of stirring
the shit. And I just don't get it.
Shawn
Buddy from Brooklyn at Work
like to apologize to any other newsgroup I intruded upon with my post.
I NEVER crosspost, I think it's rude. I simply hit respond. It wont
happen again.
recsec
news:1124794263....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Same thing here. I didn't realize it was rudely crossposted. My comments
about the agreement made in the 70's NG stand however as they were meant for
that PARTICULAR group & not any others. Sorry about my having crossposted
when I replied as I didn't know it.
anti...@earthlink.net
on the subject, sometimes crossposting can be used to generate lively
discussion. Silly me, I thought this group, which was once so lively
and now is down to a handful of regular posters and flamers, could use
a bit of injection of new thoughts by some non-regulars. I also thought
that it was okay to notice changes, including changes for the worse, in
popular culture.
Given the topic, in which politics--> economics--> culture/popular
culture, it did not seem inappropriate to crosspost to the Bush group;
some of those folks have thoughts on cultural matters, too.
Finally, just as the 70s posters have thoughts on country music (not to
mention faux patriotism), so to do country music posters have thoughts
on decade by decade changes in this genre; some even likely think of
the 70s as a golden age.
aleen the karaoke queen
that people cannot debate in a mature fashion. I am never trying to
convert people "over to my side", but rather have an intelligent debate
with people of many opinions. When it escalates to a group having a
lynch mob mentality and ganging up on someone who states an opinion
they may not like, that should be your cue to leave, Tom. Save your
thoughts for someone who can actually appreciate them and counter them
with something intelligent.
Jolie
Yeff
killfile any posts sent to more than two groups when posted here. Had to
Google the thread to see what it was about.
</segue>
Speaking of Johnny Cash, he was a ditty-bopper (Morse Systems Operator)
when he was in the Air Force. He served in the same command I did and I'm
currently on a mailing list with a couple of guys who knew him when:
<http://www.chuckhawks.com/man_in_blue.htm>
If not for a decade or three I might've been standing over Airman Cash's
shoulder telling him who he was copying or telling him who to roll up on.
He'd ask me if I was going to the snack bar anytime soon and would slip me
a dollar or two to bring him back a coffee. I'd tell him which bar
everyone was meeting up in after the last daywatch to "run the ville."
Ah, what might have been...
<segue>
--
-Jeff B.
zoomie at fastmail dot fm
aleen the karaoke queen
Published on Saturday, September 13, 2003 by The Nation
Johnny Cash's Redemption Song
by John Nichols
Later this year, Rick Rubin's American Recordings label will release a
collection of Johnny Cash songs including a collaboration between the
legendary country singer and one of his greatest fans, the Clash's Joe
Strummer. The pair's version of Bob Marley's "Redemption Song" will
serve as a poignant reminder of why Cash, who died Friday at age 71,
was so revered by his fellow musicians -- if not always by a music
industry that had a hard time figuring him out.
"In a garden full of weeds," explained U2's Bono, Cash was "the oak
tree."
Cash loved playing with younger artists who shared his recognition that
a song ought to come with an edge -- and maybe even a little politics.
His collaborations with Bob Dylan, U2 and Strummer, and the delight
with which he covered songs by Nine Inch Nails, Nick Cave, Beck, Tom
Waits and Bruce Springsteen, made it impossible to slot Cash into the
narrow categories where contemporary radio programmers consign artists.
"He's an outsider, never been part of a trend," Rubin said of Cash.
In his remarkable 1997 autobiography, Cash reflected on a career that
began with hit singles but eventually saw him searching for a proper
record label -- a search that ended only when Rubin, a groundbreaking
rock and rap producer, signed him to American Recordings and produced
four starkly brilliant albums. When people wondered why a country
singer was on his label, Rubin said, "A rock star is a musical outlaw
and that's Johnny."
Cash embraced that outlaw image, singing in his signature song, "Man in
Black":
Well you wonder why I always dress in black/Why you never see bright
colors on my back/And why does my appearance seem to have a somber
tone/Well there's a reason for the things that I have on/I wear the
black for the poor and the beaten down/Livin' in the hopeless hungry
side of town/I wear it for the prisoner who has long paid for his crime
Cash took sides in his own songs, and in the songs he chose to sing.
And he preferred the side of those imprisoned by the law -- and by
economics. Cash's obituaries are quick to quote the lines at the start
of his classic song, "Folsom Prison Blues," which go:
When I was just a baby my mama told me son/Always be a good boy don't
ever play with guns/But I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die...
Later in the song about a prisoner listening to a passing train,
however, Cash sings:
I bet there's rich folks eatin' in some fancy dining car/They're
probably drinkin' coffee and smokin' big cigars/Well I know I had it
comin' I know I can't be free/But those people keep a movin' and that's
what tortures me
Though he was not known as an expressly political artist, Cash waded
into the controversies of his times with a passion. Like the US troops
in Vietnam who idolized him, he questioned the wisdom of that war. And
in the mid-1960s, at the height of his success, he released an album
that challenged his country's treatment of Native Americans. That
album, Bitter Tears, featured an powerful version of Peter LaFarge's
"As Long as the Grass Shall Grow," a sad, angry rumination on the
mistreatment of the Seneca tribe of the Iroquois nation, and of how the
US government "broke the ancient treaty with a politician's grin."
Years later, Cash would remember that, as he prepared Bitter Tears, "I
dove into primary and secondary sources, immersing myself in the tragic
stories of the Cherokee and the Apache, among others, until I was
almost as raw as Peter. By the time I actually recorded the album I
carried a heavy load of sadness and outrage; I felt every word of those
songs, particularly 'Apache Tears' and 'The Ballad of Ira Hayes.' I
meant every word, too. I was long past pulling my punches."
The Bitter Tears project inspired one of Cash's many disputes with a
music industry that wanted him to entertain rather than educate.
"I expected there to be trouble with that album, and there was," Cash
wrote in his autobiography. "I got a lot of flak from the Columbia
Records bosses while I was recording it -- though Frank Jones, my
producer, had the sense and courage to let me go ahead and do what I
wanted -- and when it was released, many radio stations wouldn't play
it. My reaction was to write the disc jockeys a letter and pay to have
it published as a full-page ad in Billboard. It talked about them
wanting to 'wallow in meaninglessness' and noted their 'lack of vision
for our music.' Predictably enough, it got me off the air in more
places than it got me on."
Even in the 1960s, Cash said, "craven worship of the almighty dollar"
was interfering with the ability of artists to get good music heard.
Thirty years later, as Clear Channel and other radio conglomerates
sucked what life there was out of radio, Cash would argue, "The very
idea of unconventional or even original ideas ending up on 'country'
radio in the late 1990s is absurd."
In 1998, after Cash won the Grammy award for best country album,
American Recordings purchased a full-page ad in Billboard that was
addressed to country radio programmers who had failed to play his
music. The ad featured a picture of a much younger Cash with his middle
finger held high in a fierce gesture of defiance.
Even as Cash was widely honored in his last years, his music was seldom
played on mainstream country radio. And, yet, Johnny Cash kept being
heard, singing the last track of a U2 album, appearing in a haunting
video that somehow found a place on MTV and joining in that one last
"Redemption Song" with a late British punk named Strummer who
recognized that no one rocked like the Man in Black.
Copyright © 2003 The Nation
antipositivist
message.
Tom
"aleen the karaoke queen" <al...@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1124806294....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
recsec
> The only reason why politics cannot be discussed in here is the fact
> that people cannot debate in a mature fashion.
Plus it is just plain rude to discuss politics & religion in mixed company.
Or does this way of thinking not exist up north? And of course we DO have an
agreement in THIS ng to not discuss politics or religion. If we didn't have
it then I would have had a blast in here last Nov. But I didn't because of
the agreement. That plus I was able to understand that their may be some
people who just didn't want to see the sort of postings I could have made
after the elections. It's called "taking other peoples feelings into
consideration". Try it somtimes.
> I am never trying to
> convert people "over to my side", but rather have an intelligent debate
> with people of many opinions.
Disagreed. Tom you have a HUGE history of attempting to teach what you
obviously think of as the 'unenlightened'. As you have been told many many
times in the past there is not a single person here who has asked you to be
their teacher.
>When it escalates to a group having a
> lynch mob mentality and ganging up on someone who states an opinion
> they may not like, that should be your cue to leave, Tom. Save your
> thoughts for someone who can actually appreciate them and counter them
> with something intelligent.
When your told thousands of times over & over that people get the politics
they want for themselves in a variety of fashions & that they DON'T need to
get it here from you or anybody else then that should your cue to take it to
a more appropriate group. Or maybe that just hasn't been suggested in the
past.
aleen the karaoke queen
recsec wrote:
> "aleen the karaoke queen" <al...@lycos.com> wrote in message
> news:1124802617.2...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > The only reason why politics cannot be discussed in here is the fact
> > that people cannot debate in a mature fashion.
>
>
> Plus it is just plain rude to discuss politics & religion in mixed company.
> Or does this way of thinking not exist up north? And of course we DO have an
> agreement in THIS ng to not discuss politics or religion. If we didn't have
> it then I would have had a blast in here last Nov. But I didn't because of
> the agreement. That plus I was able to understand that their may be some
> people who just didn't want to see the sort of postings I could have made
> after the elections. It's called "taking other peoples feelings into
> consideration". Try it somtimes.
Asking an *unmoderated* group to not discuss certain topics is a
ridiculous request. Sure people get off topic here, but I find it very
amusing how people turn a blind eye to off topic posts until some
God-forsaken *Liberal* wants to state their opinion. The problem with
censorship (and this is very clearly censorship) is that something is
bound to offend someone at some time. Should people just not post
anything anymore for fear of offending someone? In that case, your
"boot up the ass" quote offends me greatly, so if you want this to be
an apolitical forum, maybe you should remove those quotes while we're
at it, you know, "taking other people's feelings into consideration"
and all...
>
> > I am never trying to
> > convert people "over to my side", but rather have an intelligent debate
> > with people of many opinions.
>
> Disagreed. Tom you have a HUGE history of attempting to teach what you
> obviously think of as the 'unenlightened'. As you have been told many many
> times in the past there is not a single person here who has asked you to be
> their teacher.
The problem with this is that I am *Jolie*. Not Tom. Tom and I have
had many a debate, in fact, we probably have these sorts of debates
every day on something. He is not trying to teach anyone anything, you
shouldn't skew it that way. He is simply interested in sharing ideas
and thoughts. However, that being said, sometimes a person can
actually learn something by listening to others rather than just
reacting. I learn things from Tom and I even learn things from people
with whom I disagree politically, religion-wise or otherwise.
>
> >When it escalates to a group having a
> > lynch mob mentality and ganging up on someone who states an opinion
> > they may not like, that should be your cue to leave, Tom. Save your
> > thoughts for someone who can actually appreciate them and counter them
> > with something intelligent.
>
> When your told thousands of times over & over that people get the politics
> they want for themselves in a variety of fashions & that they DON'T need to
> get it here from you or anybody else then that should your cue to take it to
> a more appropriate group. Or maybe that just hasn't been suggested in the
> past.
> Billy
Again, I find it funny how people can turn a blind eye to political
posts until Tom posts something. Very hypocritical.
> Justice will be served
> And the battle will rage
> This big dog will fight
> When you rattle his cage
> And you'll be sorry that you messed with
> The U.S. of A.
> `Cause we`ll put a boot in your ass
> It`s the American way
> Courtesy of the Red, White, & Blue (The Angry American) by Toby Keith
>
> Across the world, our military is standing directly between the American
> people and the worst dangers in the world, and Americans are grateful to
> have such brave defenders.
> President Bush at the Naval Academy Graduation ceremony in Annapolis,
> Maryland May 27th 2005
'Nuff said. Please remove these quotes.
Jolie
aleen the karaoke queen
recsec wrote:
> "aleen the karaoke queen" <al...@lycos.com> wrote in message
> news:1124802617.2...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > The only reason why politics cannot be discussed in here is the fact
> > that people cannot debate in a mature fashion.
>
>
> Plus it is just plain rude to discuss politics & religion in mixed company.
> Or does this way of thinking not exist up north? And of course we DO have an
> agreement in THIS ng to not discuss politics or religion. If we didn't have
> it then I would have had a blast in here last Nov. But I didn't because of
> the agreement. That plus I was able to understand that their may be some
> people who just didn't want to see the sort of postings I could have made
> after the elections. It's called "taking other peoples feelings into
> consideration". Try it somtimes.
Asking an *unmoderated* group to not discuss certain topics is a
ridiculous request. Sure people get off topic here, but I find it very
amusing how people turn a blind eye to off topic posts until some
God-forsaken *Liberal* wants to state their opinion. The problem with
censorship (and this is very clearly censorship) is that something is
bound to offend someone at some time. Should people just not post
anything anymore for fear of offending someone? In that case, your
"boot up the ass" quote offends me greatly, so if you want this to be
an apolitical forum, maybe you should remove those quotes while we're
at it, you know, "taking other people's feelings into consideration"
and all...
>
> > I am never trying to
> > convert people "over to my side", but rather have an intelligent debate
> > with people of many opinions.
>
> Disagreed. Tom you have a HUGE history of attempting to teach what you
> obviously think of as the 'unenlightened'. As you have been told many many
> times in the past there is not a single person here who has asked you to be
> their teacher.
The problem with this is that I am *Jolie*. Not Tom. Tom and I have
had many a debate, in fact, we probably have these sorts of debates
every day on something. He is not trying to teach anyone anything, you
shouldn't skew it that way. He is simply interested in sharing ideas
and thoughts. However, that being said, sometimes a person can
actually learn something by listening to others rather than just
reacting. I learn things from Tom and I even learn things from people
with whom I disagree politically, religion-wise or otherwise.
>
> >When it escalates to a group having a
> > lynch mob mentality and ganging up on someone who states an opinion
> > they may not like, that should be your cue to leave, Tom. Save your
> > thoughts for someone who can actually appreciate them and counter them
> > with something intelligent.
>
> When your told thousands of times over & over that people get the politics
> they want for themselves in a variety of fashions & that they DON'T need to
> get it here from you or anybody else then that should your cue to take it to
> a more appropriate group. Or maybe that just hasn't been suggested in the
> past.
> Billy
Again, I find it funny how people can turn a blind eye to political
posts until Tom posts something. Very hypocritical.
> Justice will be served
> And the battle will rage
> This big dog will fight
> When you rattle his cage
> And you'll be sorry that you messed with
> The U.S. of A.
> `Cause we`ll put a boot in your ass
> It`s the American way
> Courtesy of the Red, White, & Blue (The Angry American) by Toby Keith
>
> Across the world, our military is standing directly between the American
> people and the worst dangers in the world, and Americans are grateful to
> have such brave defenders.
> President Bush at the Naval Academy Graduation ceremony in Annapolis,
> Maryland May 27th 2005
'Nuff said. Please remove these quotes.
Jolie
recsec
>
> recsec wrote:
> > "aleen the karaoke queen" <al...@lycos.com> wrote in message
> > news:1124802617.2...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > > The only reason why politics cannot be discussed in here is the fact
> > > that people cannot debate in a mature fashion.
> >
> >
> > Plus it is just plain rude to discuss politics & religion in mixed
company.
> > Or does this way of thinking not exist up north? And of course we DO
have an
> > agreement in THIS ng to not discuss politics or religion. If we didn't
have
> > it then I would have had a blast in here last Nov. But I didn't because
of
> > the agreement. That plus I was able to understand that their may be some
> > people who just didn't want to see the sort of postings I could have
made
> > after the elections. It's called "taking other peoples feelings into
> > consideration". Try it somtimes.
>
> Asking an *unmoderated* group to not discuss certain topics is a
> ridiculous request.
It's certainly NOT a ridiculous request when EVERYONE agrees to it tho now
is it?
> Sure people get off topic here, but I find it very
> amusing how people turn a blind eye to off topic posts until some
> God-forsaken *Liberal* wants to state their opinion.
Because their opinion quickly turns to "who ever isn't a leftists is an
idiot". Has happened many times in here
> The problem with
> censorship (and this is very clearly censorship)
No an agreement is in no way shape, matter, manner or form censorship. Never
has been & never will be. That's why it's called an agreement. Because all
decide to do it.
> is that something is
> bound to offend someone at some time. Should people just not post
> anything anymore for fear of offending someone?
That is correct. People should not post something that they KNOW is going to
piss others off.
> In that case, your
> "boot up the ass" quote offends me greatly, so if you want this to be
> an apolitical forum, maybe you should remove those quotes while we're
> at it, you know, "taking other people's feelings into consideration"
> and all...
What offends ME greatly is the fact that the agreement was BROKEN by both
Buddy & Tom starting late last month & into this month. I was greatly
offended by having to wade thru all the leftists postings in here. I had a
plan to counter the left leaning writings, & I DO mean counter & counter
HARD, but one reply to an email was all it took for me to not try to bring
my plan to fruition. My new sig is MY way of reacting to the extreme
liberalism that has taken hold in here. When it stops then & ONLY THEN will
I remove my sig. Until then it stays.
> >
> > > I am never trying to
> > > convert people "over to my side", but rather have an intelligent
debate
> > > with people of many opinions.
> >
> > Disagreed. Tom you have a HUGE history of attempting to teach what you
> > obviously think of as the 'unenlightened'. As you have been told many
many
> > times in the past there is not a single person here who has asked you to
be
> > their teacher.
>
> The problem with this is that I am *Jolie*. Not Tom.
I was under the impression that he was using your computer.
> Tom and I have
> had many a debate, in fact, we probably have these sorts of debates
> every day on something.
As a married couple should in the comfort & privacy of their own home.
> He is not trying to teach anyone anything, you
> shouldn't skew it that way. He is simply interested in sharing ideas
> and thoughts. However, that being said, sometimes a person can
> actually learn something by listening to others rather than just
> reacting. I learn things from Tom and I even learn things from people
> with whom I disagree politically, religion-wise or otherwise.
I have no interest in what the left has to say. None.
> >
> > >When it escalates to a group having a
> > > lynch mob mentality and ganging up on someone who states an opinion
> > > they may not like, that should be your cue to leave, Tom. Save your
> > > thoughts for someone who can actually appreciate them and counter them
> > > with something intelligent.
> >
> > When your told thousands of times over & over that people get the
politics
> > they want for themselves in a variety of fashions & that they DON'T need
to
> > get it here from you or anybody else then that should your cue to take
it to
> > a more appropriate group. Or maybe that just hasn't been suggested in
the
> > past.
> > Billy
>
> Again, I find it funny how people can turn a blind eye to political
> posts until Tom posts something. Very hypocritical.
No not hypocritical in the least. When he posts about music & the like I am
then interested & read them. For instance I don't know The Ramones music but
he does. Or the history of the club CBGB's. I read these with interest & may
or may not reply to them. But when he starts in with his leftists postings
then yes I will call him on it.
> > Justice will be served
> > And the battle will rage
> > This big dog will fight
> > When you rattle his cage
> > And you'll be sorry that you messed with
> > The U.S. of A.
> > `Cause we`ll put a boot in your ass
> > It`s the American way
> > Courtesy of the Red, White, & Blue (The Angry American) by Toby Keith
> >
> > Across the world, our military is standing directly between the American
> > people and the worst dangers in the world, and Americans are grateful to
> > have such brave defenders.
> > President Bush at the Naval Academy Graduation ceremony in Annapolis,
> > Maryland May 27th 2005
>
> 'Nuff said. Please remove these quotes.
Please read my statement about my new sig above.
Billy
--
anti...@earthlink.net
early July, I posted the following;
"We awoke today to the terrible news of the train bombings in London.
Both Jolie and I have friends and colleagues there, and Jolie lived
there for a period of time. So this really hits home, and our thoughts
and prayers are with the victims. I could not help but flash back to
that terrible day in September 2001 when the U.S. was attacked.
Let's hope that this madness ends in our lifetime.
Tom"
i.e., hardly a political statement; rather, one of grief and mourning
at a terrible event that had occurred.
Predictably, this then immediately shifted to expressions of desire for
vengeance as well as "left bashing." Billy, you posted the following:
"Well said!! Hopefully, tho I HIGLY doubt it, todays terrorists attacks
in London will wake up the Blame America crowd in this country to the
fact that we are actually at war."
The "Blame America crowd"? I take it you meant people like me, i.e.,
non-conservatives, right? If so, how is that not bringing politics into
this newsgroup, and doing so in a very personalizing way?
(Of course, a lot of fucking good such an attitude has gotten us around
the world. Is it any wonder why this country, with its Toby Keith mind
set, is so scorned right at the moment?)
Anyway, Jolie's right, as far as I can see. People here generally turn
a blind eye to political posts until I post something. And she's right
that this is, indeed, very hypocritical.
aleen the karaoke queen
Who is this *everyone* you mention? I certainly never agreed to such a
"deal"
>
> > Sure people get off topic here, but I find it very
> > amusing how people turn a blind eye to off topic posts until some
> > God-forsaken *Liberal* wants to state their opinion.
>
> Because their opinion quickly turns to "who ever isn't a leftists is an
> idiot". Has happened many times in here
Show me an example of this and I'll be more than happy to eat my words.
I happily admit to being wrong when proven.
>
> > The problem with
> > censorship (and this is very clearly censorship)
>
> No an agreement is in no way shape, matter, manner or form censorship. Never
> has been & never will be. That's why it's called an agreement. Because all
> decide to do it.
But is there an agreement? Really? Or is it just in the minds of a
chosen few? If one were truly amongst friends they could say whatever
the heck is on their mind and not get blasted for it. If you stated an
opinion I did not agree with, I'd question you for more information as
to why you feel that way, rather than blast you.
> > is that something is
> > bound to offend someone at some time. Should people just not post
> > anything anymore for fear of offending someone?
>
> That is correct. People should not post something that they KNOW is going to
> piss others off.
Well you shouldn't post your sig, it pisses me off. If you're going to
enforce these said "rules", you need to follow them
> > In that case, your
> > "boot up the ass" quote offends me greatly, so if you want this to be
> > an apolitical forum, maybe you should remove those quotes while we're
> > at it, you know, "taking other people's feelings into consideration"
> > and all...
>
> What offends ME greatly is the fact that the agreement was BROKEN by both
> Buddy & Tom starting late last month & into this month. I was greatly
> offended by having to wade thru all the leftists postings in here. I had a
> plan to counter the left leaning writings, & I DO mean counter & counter
> HARD, but one reply to an email was all it took for me to not try to bring
> my plan to fruition. My new sig is MY way of reacting to the extreme
> liberalism that has taken hold in here. When it stops then & ONLY THEN will
> I remove my sig. Until then it stays.
Again, this "agreement" is kind of loose, don't you think? In my
opinion, you're welcome to counter all of the "leftist postings" all
you'd like. It's when it comes out as angry bile and spew that things
get out of hand in here.
> > >
> > > > I am never trying to
> > > > convert people "over to my side", but rather have an intelligent
> debate
> > > > with people of many opinions.
> > >
> > > Disagreed. Tom you have a HUGE history of attempting to teach what you
> > > obviously think of as the 'unenlightened'. As you have been told many
> many
> > > times in the past there is not a single person here who has asked you to
> be
> > > their teacher.
> >
> > The problem with this is that I am *Jolie*. Not Tom.
>
> I was under the impression that he was using your computer.
No worries. Yeah we share the same computer.
>
> > Tom and I have
> > had many a debate, in fact, we probably have these sorts of debates
> > every day on something.
>
> As a married couple should in the comfort & privacy of their own home.
Tom truly thought he was among friends here. Guess not.
>
> > He is not trying to teach anyone anything, you
> > shouldn't skew it that way. He is simply interested in sharing ideas
> > and thoughts. However, that being said, sometimes a person can
> > actually learn something by listening to others rather than just
> > reacting. I learn things from Tom and I even learn things from people
> > with whom I disagree politically, religion-wise or otherwise.
>
> I have no interest in what the left has to say. None.
I feel sorry for you then, simply because you are narrow minded.
Opinions from all walks of life make me a rich person and I pity you
for not taking in the opinions of others from all areas of life.
> > >
> > > >When it escalates to a group having a
> > > > lynch mob mentality and ganging up on someone who states an opinion
> > > > they may not like, that should be your cue to leave, Tom. Save your
> > > > thoughts for someone who can actually appreciate them and counter them
> > > > with something intelligent.
> > >
> > > When your told thousands of times over & over that people get the
> politics
> > > they want for themselves in a variety of fashions & that they DON'T need
> to
> > > get it here from you or anybody else then that should your cue to take
> it to
> > > a more appropriate group. Or maybe that just hasn't been suggested in
> the
> > > past.
> > > Billy
> >
> > Again, I find it funny how people can turn a blind eye to political
> > posts until Tom posts something. Very hypocritical.
>
> No not hypocritical in the least. When he posts about music & the like I am
> then interested & read them. For instance I don't know The Ramones music but
> he does. Or the history of the club CBGB's. I read these with interest & may
> or may not reply to them. But when he starts in with his leftists postings
> then yes I will call him on it.
It is hypocritical for *everyone* in here (this is not a statement
directed at you) to only jump on Tom when he posts off topic, when
let's face it, there is little 70s discussion actually taking place
here.
> > > Justice will be served
> > > And the battle will rage
> > > This big dog will fight
> > > When you rattle his cage
> > > And you'll be sorry that you messed with
> > > The U.S. of A.
> > > `Cause we`ll put a boot in your ass
> > > It`s the American way
> > > Courtesy of the Red, White, & Blue (The Angry American) by Toby Keith
> > >
> > > Across the world, our military is standing directly between the American
> > > people and the worst dangers in the world, and Americans are grateful to
> > > have such brave defenders.
> > > President Bush at the Naval Academy Graduation ceremony in Annapolis,
> > > Maryland May 27th 2005
> >
> > 'Nuff said. Please remove these quotes.
>
> Please read my statement about my new sig above.
> Billy
>
Again. Your sig line offends me. If you want to enforce these rules
of this cult-like "agreement" that you constantly cite, then follow
them.
Jolie
J.Leonard
""MIDIcian" (tm)" <St...@NeverFalls.com> wrote in message
news:dee2vc$ghe$0...@pita.alt.net...
>I don't know about Hank Williams (but I think he would say what Woody would
>say), but I think Woody would say this - "BUSH SUCKS!!!!".
Garbage.
If Bush sucks, what does it say about the candidates he has defeated in free
elections? Anne Richards, Al Gore, John Kerry, etc. They (and you) must not
only suck, but swallow too.
recsec
> > > censorship (and this is very clearly censorship)
> >
> > No an agreement is in no way shape, matter, manner or form censorship.
Never
> > has been & never will be. That's why it's called an agreement. Because
all
> > decide to do it.
>
> But is there an agreement? Really? Or is it just in the minds of a
> chosen few? If one were truly amongst friends they could say whatever
> the heck is on their mind and not get blasted for it. If you stated an
> opinion I did not agree with, I'd question you for more information as
> to why you feel that way, rather than blast you.
"From: antipos...@127.0.0.1 (antipos...@127.0.0.1)
Subject: Re: Regarding Political and Religious Posts, Etc.
View: Complete Thread (46 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.1970s
Date: 2002-01-26 10:11:21 PST
Okay, I can certainly take a hint. From here on in, you will not hear a peep
out of me on the "controversial" topics of politics or religion or anything
else controversial. You won't hear me advocating bring back polytheism, or
calling for anarchy in the USA, or anything of that sort. I will go with
the consensus here.
Again, all I ask is for consistency."
You'll notice the date on it. So why has he decided to break his word?
> > > Tom and I have
> > > had many a debate, in fact, we probably have these sorts of debates
> > > every day on something.
> >
> > As a married couple should in the comfort & privacy of their own home.
>
> Tom truly thought he was among friends here. Guess not.
Yeah it seems to me that if a friend says "hey let's not go there" then the
one who does want to go there should respect the wishes of his friend. Must
be a hard concept to grasp.
> > > He is not trying to teach anyone anything, you
> > > shouldn't skew it that way. He is simply interested in sharing ideas
> > > and thoughts. However, that being said, sometimes a person can
> > > actually learn something by listening to others rather than just
> > > reacting. I learn things from Tom and I even learn things from people
> > > with whom I disagree politically, religion-wise or otherwise.
> >
> > I have no interest in what the left has to say. None.
>
> I feel sorry for you then, simply because you are narrow minded.
> Opinions from all walks of life make me a rich person and I pity you
> for not taking in the opinions of others from all areas of life.
I feel sorry for you & other small narrow minded people who don't possess
the comprehension gene to know that when you get hit then you hit back hard
& give them double what they gave you. I also feel sorry for you for being
narrowed minded since you are pissed off about a song & singer of which you
obviously have no idea about. You seem to be against the song & the message
in it so you don't want it anywhere around you. I pity you for not having
the story on the song before you blast it. How narrow minded is that?
> > > Again, I find it funny how people can turn a blind eye to political
> > > posts until Tom posts something. Very hypocritical.
> >
> > No not hypocritical in the least. When he posts about music & the like I
am
> > then interested & read them. For instance I don't know The Ramones music
but
> > he does. Or the history of the club CBGB's. I read these with interest &
may
> > or may not reply to them. But when he starts in with his leftists
postings
> > then yes I will call him on it.
>
> It is hypocritical for *everyone* in here (this is not a statement
> directed at you) to only jump on Tom when he posts off topic, when
> let's face it, there is little 70s discussion actually taking place
> here.
No it is not hypocritical to jump on Tom when he does it as he is the only
one who does make political postings on a consistent basis. Witness what he
has done in the last month alone.
> > > > Justice will be served
> > > > And the battle will rage
> > > > This big dog will fight
> > > > When you rattle his cage
> > > > And you'll be sorry that you messed with
> > > > The U.S. of A.
> > > > `Cause we`ll put a boot in your ass
> > > > It`s the American way
> > > > Courtesy of the Red, White, & Blue (The Angry American) by Toby
Keith
> > > >
> > > > Across the world, our military is standing directly between the
American
> > > > people and the worst dangers in the world, and Americans are
grateful to
> > > > have such brave defenders.
> > > > President Bush at the Naval Academy Graduation ceremony in
Annapolis,
> > > > Maryland May 27th 2005
> > >
> > > 'Nuff said. Please remove these quotes.
> >
> > Please read my statement about my new sig above.
> > Billy
> >
>
> Again. Your sig line offends me. If you want to enforce these rules
> of this cult-like "agreement" that you constantly cite, then follow
> them.
Again leftists postings highly offend me. I've posted the "cult like
agreement" above. Yes he should follow it. As I said when the leftists
postings come to a halt then I will remove it. Until then it stays.
Billy
--
recsec
news:1124836947.3...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Just one thing to add here. Right after the London bombing, back in
> early July, I posted the following;
>
> "We awoke today to the terrible news of the train bombings in London.
> Both Jolie and I have friends and colleagues there, and Jolie lived
> there for a period of time. So this really hits home, and our thoughts
> and prayers are with the victims. I could not help but flash back to
> that terrible day in September 2001 when the U.S. was attacked.
>
> Let's hope that this madness ends in our lifetime.
>
> Tom"
>
> i.e., hardly a political statement; rather, one of grief and mourning
> at a terrible event that had occurred.
>
> Predictably, this then immediately shifted to expressions of desire for
> vengeance as well as "left bashing." Billy, you posted the following:
> "Well said!! Hopefully, tho I HIGLY doubt it, todays terrorists attacks
> in London will wake up the Blame America crowd in this country to the
> fact that we are actually at war."
>
> The "Blame America crowd"? I take it you meant people like me, i.e.,
> non-conservatives, right? If so, how is that not bringing politics into
> this newsgroup, and doing so in a very personalizing way?
>
> (Of course, a lot of fucking good such an attitude has gotten us around
> the world. Is it any wonder why this country, with its Toby Keith mind
> set, is so scorned right at the moment?)
Just by writing what you have written shows that yes you are a memeber of
the 'blame America' crowd in this country. You've don it on a number of
occassions anyway. And yes I did write what I wrote. Altho I don't remember
if the "Well said" portion of my statement was in reply to what you wrote. I
did, & do have sympathy for the innocent victims of the 7-7-05 bombings & I
prayed to God to bless the souls of the innocent one who died that day & to
bless their families. I was also highly pissed off at the pigs who would do
this to our staunch ally in the war on terror. I also knew that the bombings
would not make any difference to those who do blame America for having
people who wish to destroy us.
> Anyway, Jolie's right, as far as I can see. People here generally turn
> a blind eye to political posts until I post something. And she's right
> that this is, indeed, very hypocritical.
No one else makes political postings except you. So no it's not hypocritical
at all. When you make these postings you should do so knowing full well that
you are only trying to piss others off. When that happens you have no right
to be surprised or upset about their reply.
Billy
--
aleen the karaoke queen
Probably because others have too. He had asked for consistency and did
not get it. Therefore if others broke this "deal" then he had every
right to discuss politics. He's not the ONLY one talking politics
here. Again I think it's sad that he's being singled out here.
> > > > Tom and I have
> > > > had many a debate, in fact, we probably have these sorts of debates
> > > > every day on something.
> > >
> > > As a married couple should in the comfort & privacy of their own home.
> >
> > Tom truly thought he was among friends here. Guess not.
>
>
> Yeah it seems to me that if a friend says "hey let's not go there" then the
> one who does want to go there should respect the wishes of his friend. Must
> be a hard concept to grasp.
Has any "friend" in here been so gentle by saying "hey let's not go
there"? I think the requests to lay off have been much harsher.
> > > > He is not trying to teach anyone anything, you
> > > > shouldn't skew it that way. He is simply interested in sharing ideas
> > > > and thoughts. However, that being said, sometimes a person can
> > > > actually learn something by listening to others rather than just
> > > > reacting. I learn things from Tom and I even learn things from people
> > > > with whom I disagree politically, religion-wise or otherwise.
> > >
> > > I have no interest in what the left has to say. None.
> >
> > I feel sorry for you then, simply because you are narrow minded.
> > Opinions from all walks of life make me a rich person and I pity you
> > for not taking in the opinions of others from all areas of life.
>
> I feel sorry for you & other small narrow minded people who don't possess
> the comprehension gene to know that when you get hit then you hit back hard
> & give them double what they gave you. I also feel sorry for you for being
> narrowed minded since you are pissed off about a song & singer of which you
> obviously have no idea about. You seem to be against the song & the message
> in it so you don't want it anywhere around you. I pity you for not having
> the story on the song before you blast it. How narrow minded is that?
Ah yes, I lack a comprehension gene that can help me understand why a
boot must be placed up someone's ass. Perhaps one of my graduate
school professors may shed some light on this for me this upcoming
semester. Yeah I understand where the song is coming from. That
doesn't mean I don't think Toby Keith is a fuckwit redneck whose
opinion does not accurately represent ALL Americans, since I know that
he does not. You have severely misjudged me however. I *have*
listened to the lyrics of the song and I will fully admit I'm luckily
not on the same page as this singer. I can't help it, I'm simply not
so inclined to fall for simple-minded propaganda.
> > > > Again, I find it funny how people can turn a blind eye to political
> > > > posts until Tom posts something. Very hypocritical.
> > >
> > > No not hypocritical in the least. When he posts about music & the like I
> am
> > > then interested & read them. For instance I don't know The Ramones music
> but
> > > he does. Or the history of the club CBGB's. I read these with interest &
> may
> > > or may not reply to them. But when he starts in with his leftists
> postings
> > > then yes I will call him on it.
> >
> > It is hypocritical for *everyone* in here (this is not a statement
> > directed at you) to only jump on Tom when he posts off topic, when
> > let's face it, there is little 70s discussion actually taking place
> > here.
>
> No it is not hypocritical to jump on Tom when he does it as he is the only
> one who does make political postings on a consistent basis. Witness what he
> has done in the last month alone.
All I can do at this point is shake my head.
Riiiight. OK, you win. I'm going to stop here as this argument
appears to be neverending and childish. When things resort to the
equivalent of a testosterone-induced brawl, I just concede. I've said
what I've needed to say. If you need to have the last word go ahead.
Good luck finding some asses to put your boots up.
Jolie
recsec
This is the 2nd agreement he made in regards to not posting politics &/or
religion. He had agreed to it before this date, broke itm then made this
agreement. I posted this a few years ago when I had asked him what his
definition of the word "comsistency" was as he had, by the time I posted
this, had already broken the 1st agreement. His recent postings that he
started show once again that he is not familiar with the word consistency.
You may have listened to the words of the song but you obviously have no
idea what the song is about. None. So it comes to me as no surprise that you
& others, the majority of which come from up north, are only able to see
this song as 'simple-minded propaganda'. And I could really care less how
much college education you have. Does not in any way make you better or
smarter than those who didn't go to college.
Same here!
Yes childish is THE word for it altho I don't see where a
"testosterone-induced brawl" has happened. Just pointing out that the
agreement was YET again broken by Tom & wanted to know why. I let it go for
a month but the crossposted thread about how it's bad to be patriotic put me
over the edge.
> Good luck finding some asses to put your boots up.
O that's no problem. It goes up the ones who want to fly airplanes into our
buildings. Which is what happened on Tuesday September 11th 2001. It was in
all the papers. Maybe you heard about it. Sept. 11th is not simply the day
between the 10th & 12th.
Billy
--
"MIDIcian" (tm)
news:O8zOe.868$eQ....@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com...
> Why is it wrong to be Patriotic?
>
> And what happened to the agreement to NOT speak politics or religion in
> this
> group?
It was broken by Country musicians that decided to sing about politics and
religion. They weren't part of that agreement.
Stan
"MIDIcian" (tm)
"MIDIcian" (tm)
"Buddy from Brooklyn at Work" <thewand...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1124794263....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
"MIDIcian" (tm)
+ -+- +- +-news:ZjEOe.900$eQ....@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com...
"MIDIcian" (tm)
>>I don't know about Hank Williams (but I think he would say what Woody
>>would say), but I think Woody would say this - "BUSH SUCKS!!!!".
>
> Garbage.
> If Bush sucks,
What do you mean by *IF*????
> what does it say about the candidates he has defeated in free elections?
What "free" elections. Those were held on machines, with easily manipulated
results. All someone had to do is open a file and change the results.
I believe the elections you mentioned (*INCLUDING* against Ann Richards)
were stolen.
Stan
beatl...@aol.com
>When it escalates to a group having a
>lynch mob mentality and ganging up on someone who states an opinion
>they may not like, that should be your cue to leave, Tom. Save your
>thoughts for someone who can actually appreciate them and counter them
>with something intelligent.
I am compelled to ask. As one person does not a lynch mob make, are
your above statements directed solely at Billy, with whom you have been
having a bit of an exchange, or were they intended for me as well?
Shawn
Nancy
was partly due to crap like this going on. I DO remember there was an
agreement here for people to stop posting political/religious subjects
because all it does is piss people off. When someone feels so strongly with
all of their heart and soul about something then NO ONE is going to change
there mind and it is pointless to discuss it. If you do want to discuss
politics...go to a political group where there are people there willing to
do so. And making a comment about how you feel politically and writing a
controversial article about it are two different things to me. Come on Tom,
you've known Billy for what? Six or seven years? and you didn't think that
was going to piss him off???? I myself would love the war to end and to have
all those boys come home today. But in the meantime, while they are there we
should support them let them know that we are proud of them to be standing
up for America....the greatest country in the world......we are all LUCKY to
be here......very lucky. Okay just my two cents. I will probably go into
hiding again but if anyone sees Rhonda tell her I do want my book back and
TIA.
<anti...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1124836947.3...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
J.Leonard
> manipulated results. All someone had to do is open a file and change the
> results.
Well.. that would explain Clinton's two terms. Maybe you prefer we chisel on
stone tablets.
>
> I believe the elections you mentioned (*INCLUDING* against Ann Richards)
> were stolen.
You 'believe', but you don't 'know'. You have no proof or facts. Thus, your
ignorance. Don't you think Walker Texas Ranger could have solved such a case
in less than an hour?
"MIDIcian" (tm)
""MIDIcian" (tm)" <St...@NeverFalls.com> wrote in message
> "Stupid *ELEPHANTS*, see 'em holding each other's tails"
Stupid donkeys, see them making asses of themselves.
Guilty_Conscience
I have replied to Antipositivist a couple of times, most notably when
he came up with some story about people being arrested at a Bush
appearance. When I noted that the same thing happened when Clinton was
in office, he disappeared. I guess that was his cue to leave and bait
people into another argument.
And while we're on the subject: if you're a liberal, why would you want
to spend a lot of time posting in conservative newsgroups, anyway? Are
you there to learn, or are you there to provoke?
I just don't understand why neither one of you express your views in a
positive way. If you are so passionate about being liberal, why don't
you explain your positions? Instead, you attack anything that counters
your own beliefs. I am conservative myself, and I don't spend the
majority of my time thinking and making posts about what moveon.org and
Michael Moore are up to. That's a pretty negative way to live your
life- all you're doing is reacting instead of making a positive
contribution of your own.
--------------------------------
Guilty_Conscience
you as the resident liberal kook. Of course if you posted conservative
things, people would think you're resident conservative kook.
I guess what I am getting at here is that I think other posters tend to
think that you define yourself by your politics. Of course that's not
true- while I have never met you personally, I get the impression that
you are a very warm, compassionate person who has a love of music, pop
culture, etc. The problem is that you have posted so many inflammatory
things in the past that when you finally do show that other side,
people start looking for "the angle". ESPECIALLY when it comes to
current event topics like terrorism.
It's not fair, but it's human nature I think. Don't let it bother you.
Take care.
aleen the karaoke queen
Shawn,
I've e-mailed you my reply so as not to offend the oh-so-sensitive eyes
of the group members and because I respect you.
Jolie
aleen the karaoke queen
Shawn,
anti...@earthlink.net
busier recently, and I am getting exhausted by all of the negative
energy directed my way, but I just want to say the following.
In the past several weeks, after very limited involvement here, and
then after meeting up with Buddy and Dawna and thus being reminded of
my history with this group, I actually attempted to post a bunch of
topics related to the 70s and/or popular culture.
For example, I posted about Earl Butz on 8/3. One person replied. I
posted about the MC5, and no one replied. I posted about Martin
Scorsese doing a Bob Dylan documentary for PBS, something I am really
eager to watch, and guess what, no one replied. On the same day, 8/3, I
also posted about polyesther, Jimi Hendrix, and Led Zeppelin, and, lo
and behold, not a single reply. Of course, maybe everyone was away on
vacation; anything's possible.
I also posted, with Buddy, about Coney Island just prior to this; no
one bothered to add to the discussion. I also replied to Buddy's post
about Mick Jagger, and again, we were all alone. In July, I posted
about the new version of the Doors; once upon a time, such a topic here
would likely have gotten a bunch of additional posts; no longer.
Let's see, what else? I posted a link in late July to a wonderful
Robert Altman photo gallery; Buddy replied, and no one else. I posted a
link to a news site about 70s artists - nothing! In early July, I
posted about an Alanis Morrissette show at the place where the NYC
group periodically gathers; once again, it wound up being a
conversation betwqeen me and Buddy. I also made a joke, around the same
time, about bad wedding music, and Rhonda, bless her heart, was the
only one to reply (just as she was the only one to respond to my post
about seeing a recent NY Dolls show). In June, I posted a link to a
site containing bizarre music, and no one replied. I also posted a
list, in early June, of amusing adult film title; one person replied,
just like one person, i.e. Buddy, bothered to say anything in response
to the "potentially embarrassing and disgusting survey."
I could go on like this, but I think I've made my point. What I can add
is that these were all attempts to generate a bit of discussion here;
none of these were in the remotest bit "political." Nevertheless, these
posts generated minimal, at best, discussion.
Now I find myself in the midst of a shitstorm here, simply for having
some snide comments about some crappy music and having it be perceived
as "political" (which it was, but indirectly). Yet while looking at the
recent archives, I notice that others here, not just me, have
expressed, in one way or another, their political views, with little if
any controversy, and I am also struck by how the "London Bombings"
thread very quickly turned into a heated political discussion; I had
lots to say, but refrained at that time, because I was not wanting to
think, at that moment of the political implications of a tragedy,
though others had lots of thought provoking things to say about it.
Buddy regularly posts political messages, and having discussed this
with him personally, I support his doing this, just as I support his
view of refraining from self-censorship; occasionally I join him in
these discussions, or he joins me; he and I both believe that we are
amongst grownups here, and that grownups can argue while avoid getting
too offended; of course, that is possibly a mistaken assumption.
Anyway, others here, notably Yeff and Billy regularly express their
political views, and that is there right; as a matter of fact, I
respect both of these individuals for sticking around and for being
themselves, even though I may disagree with their opinions in
fundamental ways. I respect all the regulars here who stick around and
who are themselves.
As far as crossposting to other groups, again I will say that this is a
function, and a useful one at that, of usenet. Once upon a time, this
group had lots of activity, and cross-posting was a rarity. When it
occurred, which was often as part of trolling by outsiders, it was
perceived as a breach of (n)ettiqite. However, I've periodically
cross-posted to both here and to groups like alt.punk, when I though
that there might be mutual interest in some topic. As far as posting
this topic to the country groups and to the Bush group (which, for
those who don't know it, contains posts from folks all across the
political spectrum, not just from the far right, I wanted, as I said,
to simply see what they had to say about this topic, and I make no
apologies for this.
I am curious, of course, about one thing regarding those who are either
"apolitical" or conservative, and about those who might have been here
when we were grieving about 911 (which of course, some of you watched
from a distance, as opposed to someone like me who was on the street
watching the towers collapse.) How do you live with the knowledge that
this country was attacked by one group, and we now bogged down in a
quagmire in a country that had nothing to do with this attack, a
quagmire that is costing American lives and American treasure; how do
you live with the lies that we have been told (or do you deny that we
have been)? Does waving a flag, or sticking a "support the troops"
bumper sticker on your vehicle really make you feel better? I am very
curious to know your thoughts on this.
Tom
Jeff
in various guises. I have been back on here posting since my return from
Iraq in April, every day. I have not seen any of the posts you mention.
Seems "Buddy" has seen them all and no one else. Maybe the problem is on
your end.
J
anti...@earthlink.net
are archived.
Jeff
<anti...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1124904383.9...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Relly Jeff? I've posted primarily through Google, which is where they
> are archived.
>
Really, havent seen any of them.
anti...@earthlink.net
various folks like Buddy, Billy, Yeff, Rach, Rhonda and others have
periodically replied to them; also, this thread is one in which I have
posted via Google.
Anyway, thanks for the info.
Tom
Jeff
<anti...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1124907566....@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
So your original post that only Buddy and one other person replied is
incorrect?
anti...@earthlink.net
Which post is that, and "incorrect" in what sense?
Jeff
<anti...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1124908792.1...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
The OP of this thread and incorrect in the sense that your complaint was
that no one (except Buddy and one other person) was replying to your posts
when in fact you say in this post that Buddy, Billy, Yeff, Rach, Rhonda "and
others" have periodically replied. No biggie to me, this has already gone
farther than that being tasteful for me. I wont be replying again. If its
70's related then I will. Oh, and I have posted where the thread went on and
on and have also posted where I recieved one or no replies. Its a NG, if no
one replies to something I deemed important enough to spend 30 seconds
typing about, no biggie, might not have been important to them (Them being
anyone else).
The Wanderer
political. I was reporting to a loss of our Fourth Amendment rights in using
mass transit in NYC. I thought that maybe the Constitution of that United
States (the thing that makes us uniquely American, and supposedly JOINS us
together) was important to people around the country. I guess I was wrong.
Even here, it seems that as soon as people are overcome with fear they
become willing to give up Constitutional rights, as listed in the Bill Of
Rights. That's what happened in NY in regards to our Second Amendment in the
mid '60s, and is happening now in regards our Fourth Amendment. I guess our
Constitution really doesn't mean anything to most people. And if stating
that has caused a problem in here I apologize, and shed a tear for America.
If I started it this time I apologize.
--
Buddy
from Brooklyn
http://geocities.com/thewanderer315/
http://www.tinyd.net/70buddy.html
http://www.johnlennon.it/galleria_fotografica.htm
"Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God."
Thomas Paine
"No free man shall ever be de-barred the use of arms. The strongest reason
for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is as a last resort
to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
Thomas Jefferson
"First make sure you're right, then go ahead."
Davy Crockett
" There are certain sections in New York I wouldn't advise you to try to
invade."
Humphrey Bogart's line -as Rick- to Nazi officer in "Casablanca"
"The making of an American begins at the point where he himself rejects all
other ties, any other history, and himself adopts the vesture of his adopted
land."
James Baldwin
"recsec" <bi...@beer.com> wrote in message
news:D9ROe.1870$L77...@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
Stan Jensen
remove the crossposting stuff, because *I* personally don't care about
the other groups).
I've been on here for a while, but usually don't post, unless
something strikes my interest. If I don't see something in the subject
line, I probably won't read it or, if I do, probably won't reply.
Mainly because I live by the old adage "Keep your mouth shut lest you
look like a fool" (or something like that).
And also, it seems like a bunch of people on here are best buds, and
hang out all the time. Me? I'm one of the "loners" around. I don't
know any of you personally, and I don't even live close for all these
"get-togethers."
So, why should I bother to reply to soemthing that I'm not interested
in?
There. There's my reasoning.
S.
recsec
>
> I've e-mailed you my reply so as not to offend the oh-so-sensitive eyes
> of the group members and because I respect you.
>
> Jolie
>
Did you ask one of your college professors to FINALLY give you something
intelligent to say in your reply to Shawn?? My guess would be no.
aleen the karaoke queen
recsec wrote:
> > Shawn,
> >
> > I've e-mailed you my reply so as not to offend the oh-so-sensitive eyes
> > of the group members and because I respect you.
> >
> > Jolie
> >
>
>
> Did you ask one of your college professors to FINALLY give you something
> intelligent to say in your reply to Shawn?? My guess would be no.
> Billy
>
You don't know when to let it go do you. I find it intriguing that you
are so much older than I am but act so childish in comparison. I find
it amusing that you think that because I don't agree with a knee-jerk
buffoon like Toby Keith that I lack intelligence, ha. Sounds like I
hit a real sore spot when I mentioned my education, didn't I. I am
extremely proud of myself. I have worked hard to pay my way through
college and graduate school. I have also worked hard to maintain a
high average in school. I don't think I'm better or smarter than
anyone because of my education, my father is not college educated, yet
he is one of the smartest people I've ever known. However, I have
every right to be proud of my education (because I have worked my ass
off for it) and not be bullied by someone who obviously has issues. I
cannot argue with someone who is as childish as you are and who
obviously has major anger issues. If you want to calmly, rationally
argue, that's one thing, but if you want to resort to the level of
grade school, then I want no part of it. That's all. Get help.
Jolie
aleen the karaoke queen
recsec wrote:
> > Shawn,
> >
> > I've e-mailed you my reply so as not to offend the oh-so-sensitive eyes
> > of the group members and because I respect you.
> >
> > Jolie
> >
>
>
> Did you ask one of your college professors to FINALLY give you something
> intelligent to say in your reply to Shawn?? My guess would be no.
> Billy
>
You don't know when to let it go do you. I find it intriguing that you
aleen the karaoke queen
recsec wrote:
> > Shawn,
> >
> > I've e-mailed you my reply so as not to offend the oh-so-sensitive eyes
> > of the group members and because I respect you.
> >
> > Jolie
> >
>
>
> Did you ask one of your college professors to FINALLY give you something
> intelligent to say in your reply to Shawn?? My guess would be no.
> Billy
>
You don't know when to let it go do you. I find it intriguing that you
anti...@earthlink.net
recsec wrote:
> > Shawn,
> >
> > I've e-mailed you my reply so as not to offend the oh-so-sensitive eyes
> > of the group members and because I respect you.
> >
> > Jolie
> >
>
>
> Did you ask one of your college professors to FINALLY give you something
> intelligent to say in your reply to Shawn?? My guess would be no.
> Billy
Look who's calling the kettle black! Jolie's quite capable of thinking
for herself; you, on the other hand, obviously get your talking points
from Fox News and Rush Limbaugh.
The Wanderer
in July. She's going to read it and pass it back to you. She asked me to ask
you to Email her with your address so she can mail it as soon as done.
--
Buddy
from Brooklyn
http://geocities.com/thewanderer315/
http://www.tinyd.net/70buddy.html
http://www.johnlennon.it/galleria_fotografica.htm
"Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God."
Thomas Paine
"No free man shall ever be de-barred the use of arms. The strongest reason
for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is as a last resort
to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
Thomas Jefferson
"First make sure you're right, then go ahead."
Davy Crockett
" There are certain sections in New York I wouldn't advise you to try to
invade."
Humphrey Bogart's line -as Rick- to Nazi officer in "Casablanca"
"The making of an American begins at the point where he himself rejects all
other ties, any other history, and himself adopts the vesture of his adopted
land."
James Baldwin
"Nancy" <na...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:haOdnZ2dnZ0wKUeXnZ2dn...@comcast.com...
Yeff
> How do you live with the knowledge that this country was attacked by one
> group, and we now bogged down in a quagmire in a country that had
> nothing to do with this attack,
Are you sure Iraq had nothing to do with the attack? Notice the date
(March, 2001) of this story which is seven months *before* the 9/11
attacks: <http://www.meib.org/articles/0104_irb.htm>
German authorities, acting on CIA recommendations, had been
focused on monitoring the activities of Islamic groups linked
to bin Ladin. They discovered the two Iraqi agents by chance
and uncovered what they considered to be serious indications
of cooperation between Iraq and bin Ladin.
Oh, and quagmire? I'm in contact with many people currently in the
military. Some have been to Iraq, one is in the midst of a years
deployment there, and one has now taken a civilian job which will send him
to Iraq almost every month. It's universal among this group that what they
see with their own eyes (ground truth) is markedly different than what gets
reported here in the States. They *all* say it's a valid mission (the one
currently deployed did *not* vote for GWB), that morale is high, say that
everything that's going right over there is being under/mis-reported, and
say that we're winning. That seems to be a common attitude amongst
military personnel, and even Matt Lauer ran into it during a recent on-air
interview of soldiers in Baghdad for "The Today Show". He'd asked about
troop morale and had gotten responses that it was high. Showing his
journalistic skepticism Matt responded,
"Don't get me wrong, I think you're probably telling the truth,
but there might be a lot of people at home wondering how that
could be possible with the conditions you're facing and with the
insurgent attacks you're facing. So, what would you say to those
people who are doubtful that morale can be that high?"
US Army Captain Sherman Powell answered,
"Well sir, I'd tell you, if I got my news from the newspapers also
I'd be pretty depressed as well."
Video here: <http://newsbusters.org/media/TodaySoldier.wmv>
<http://newsbusters.org/media/TodaySoldier.rm>
Again, that seems to be a common refrain of military personnel - American's
aren't being told the truth about the successes of the Iraqi mission.
Lastly, keep in mind that we aren't fighting a global war against al Queda,
nor are we fighting a global war on bin Laden. It's a global war on terror
(GWOT) and Iraq is a battle in that overall campaign. US military forces
are engaged in direct fighting in a few more countries besides Iraq, and
no, I don't mean Afghanistan.
--
-Jeff B.
zoomie at fastmail dot fm
anti...@earthlink.net
fact that you can put forth an argument in opposition to my own without
spewing venom at the same time. As far as the substance of what you are
saying here, as well as the source of your information, I have no doubt
that some of the military who are over there believe in their cause; of
course there are people out in Arizona and New Mexico who believe that
any way now, UFOs will land and an intelligent life form will invite
them aboard for a free space flight. Beliefs are not always based on
objective facts.
As far as the Iraq-al Quada connection, this line of reasoning has been
discredited by most expert sources. In any case, the evidence for this
is rather flimsy, at best. There is much more evidence to suggest that
certain factions, motivated by a combination of Irael, oil, and
ideology, wanted to invade Iraq years before 911 and were looking at
any pretext to do so. Which is why, of course, the rationale for the
invasion keeps shifting back and forth.
recsec
Your the ONE who made the DUMBASS crack about education. You keep that in
mind while you post your mindless replies ok? You don't know my life! You
haven't walked a single inch in my shoes so who in the fuck do you think you
are to say how much better you are cos you went to college than I am?? I can
tell you real fucking quick that your NOT who ever it is that you think you
are!!! No I didn't appreciate it one little bit you throwing your college in
my face!!!! You made your bed & now you are going to have to lie in it!
I find it intriguing that you
> are so much older than I am but act so childish in comparison. I find
> it amusing that you think that because I don't agree with a knee-jerk
> buffoon like Toby Keith that I lack intelligence, ha
Once again you miss the point don't you??
. Sounds like I
> hit a real sore spot when I mentioned my education, didn't I.
See above. If you can't read it then go ask one of your college professors.
I am
> extremely proud of myself. I have worked hard to pay my way through
> college and graduate school. I have also worked hard to maintain a
> high average in school. I don't think I'm better or smarter than
> anyone because of my education, my father is not college educated, yet
> he is one of the smartest people I've ever known. However, I have
> every right to be proud of my education (because I have worked my ass
> off for it)
I don't begrudge people their educatuion until they throw it at me to tell
me how stupid I am. Then, & ONLY then, do I get pissed off!!
and not be bullied by someone who obviously has issues. I
> cannot argue with someone who is as childish as you are and who
> obviously has major anger issues. If you want to calmly, rationally
> argue, that's one thing, but if you want to resort to the level of
> grade school, then I want no part of it. That's all. Get help.
Yes you DO need help & quick!!
recsec
> for herself; you, on the other hand, obviously get your talking points
> from Fox News and Rush Limbaugh.
In my mind this doesn't involve you. If it did then you would have been here
yesterday fighting your fights instead of letting your wife do it for you.
And you'll find that I to am quite capable of thinking for myself instead of
getting talking points from the lunatic fringe left as you have proven
yourself time & again to do!!
Nancy
time. I will email Dawna a little later.
"The Wanderer" <rosieon...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Kb7Pe.19472$%w....@twister.nyc.rr.com...
anti...@earthlink.net
recsec wrote:
> > You don't know when to let it go do you.
>
> Your the ONE who made the DUMBASS crack about education. You keep that in
> mind while you post your mindless replies ok? You don't know my life! You
> haven't walked a single inch in my shoes so who in the fuck do you think you
> are to say how much better you are cos you went to college than I am?? I can
> tell you real fucking quick that your NOT who ever it is that you think you
> are!!! No I didn't appreciate it one little bit you throwing your college in
> my face!!!! You made your bed & now you are going to have to lie in it!
If you are going to get so bent out of shape when people make cracks
about rednecks, then stop acting like one (though I know it's hard,
being from a part of the country where people flaunt their ignorance
not unlike how they flaunt their cowboy boots and big belt buckles).
recsec
news:1124901940.4...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> This will probably be my last post to this thread, as I have gotten
> busier recently, and I am getting exhausted by all of the negative
> energy directed my way, but I just want to say the following.
>
> In the past several weeks, after very limited involvement here, and
> then after meeting up with Buddy and Dawna and thus being reminded of
> my history with this group, I actually attempted to post a bunch of
> topics related to the 70s and/or popular culture.
>
> For example, I posted about Earl Butz on 8/3. One person replied. I
> posted about the MC5, and no one replied. I posted about Martin
> Scorsese doing a Bob Dylan documentary for PBS, something I am really
> eager to watch, and guess what, no one replied. On the same day, 8/3, I
> also posted about polyesther, Jimi Hendrix, and Led Zeppelin, and, lo
> and behold, not a single reply. Of course, maybe everyone was away on
> vacation; anything's possible.
All of these are political in nature. That's why no one else replied to them
because they looked at it & decided on their own that they political in
nature. And I see that you didn't list the thread you started about some
idiotic anti war song that only you have heard of. And your crying cos no
one replied to your attempt to start shit in here at that time?? Besides we
ALL make postings that go unanswered. I posted a music quiz about a year ago
that got only 4 replies to it. The 5 of us had a blast with it with no
worries about no one esle replying to it.
> I also posted, with Buddy, about Coney Island just prior to this; no
> one bothered to add to the discussion. I also replied to Buddy's post
> about Mick Jagger, and again, we were all alone. In July, I posted
> about the new version of the Doors; once upon a time, such a topic here
> would likely have gotten a bunch of additional posts; no longer.
It's fun to read about the NYC outings ya'll have. No requirement to reply
to them tho. The Mick Jagger one was about a new song they have railing
against Pres. Bush. Political in nature there so everyone else refrained
from replying to it. I clicked on the Doors link & listened to it a bit. Was
entertaining enuff.
> Let's see, what else? I posted a link in late July to a wonderful
> Robert Altman photo gallery; Buddy replied, and no one else. I posted a
> link to a news site about 70s artists - nothing! In early July, I
> posted about an Alanis Morrissette show at the place where the NYC
> group periodically gathers; once again, it wound up being a
> conversation betwqeen me and Buddy. I also made a joke, around the same
> time, about bad wedding music, and Rhonda, bless her heart, was the
> only one to reply (just as she was the only one to respond to my post
> about seeing a recent NY Dolls show). In June, I posted a link to a
> site containing bizarre music, and no one replied. I also posted a
> list, in early June, of amusing adult film title; one person replied,
> just like one person, i.e. Buddy, bothered to say anything in response
> to the "potentially embarrassing and disgusting survey."
The 'survey' was disgusting.
> I could go on like this, but I think I've made my point. What I can add
> is that these were all attempts to generate a bit of discussion here;
> none of these were in the remotest bit "political." Nevertheless, these
> posts generated minimal, at best, discussion.
A thread about Earl Butz isn't "in the remotest bit political?"
> Now I find myself in the midst of a shitstorm here,
That you once again started
>simply for having
> some snide comments about some crappy music and having it be perceived
> as "political" (which it was, but indirectly).
And there lies the problem. You have this belief that if you only post
political threads indirectly then the others in here are just to stupid to
realize that & you can then get around not posting politically. This is your
history. You have to live with the consequences of what you start. I called
you on it 1 or 2 years ago when you tried doing it with your "Is Ted Nugent
Racist" thread. You tried to post indirectly by using Ted Nugent, who's
glory days are trhe 70's, & got caught. Just as you have
this time. You don't like the music on this new cd from wally world then
fine!! Just say I hate these fucking lousy songs. No reason
to add all the bullshit along with it like "In other words, maudlin,
xenophobic, black/white dichotomous sentiments, and the lack of any attempt
at rational political analysis, all set to fiddles
and pedal steel guitars, and to be marketed and sold at Wal-Mart." What was
the purpose of this?? I mean other than to start shit again. It's well known
that you hate America & hate people
for being patriotic towards this country. So why go & start shit about those
who
do love this country?? Do you think that YOU possess the ability to change
people's minds?? You don't ok?
> Yet while looking at the
> recent archives, I notice that others here, not just me, have
> expressed, in one way or another, their political views, with little if
> any controversy, and I am also struck by how the "London Bombings"
> thread very quickly turned into a heated political discussion; I had
> lots to say, but refrained at that time, because I was not wanting to
> think, at that moment of the political implications of a tragedy,
> though others had lots of thought provoking things to say about it.
> Buddy regularly posts political messages, and having discussed this
> with him personally, I support his doing this, just as I support his
> view of refraining from self-censorship; occasionally I join him in
> these discussions, or he joins me; he and I both believe that we are
> amongst grownups here, and that grownups can argue while avoid getting
> too offended; of course, that is possibly a mistaken assumption.
> Anyway, others here, notably Yeff and Billy regularly express their
> political views,
Wrong! When I do it, which is rare these days, it is because I have had it
up to here with you doing it. As I did with this thread you started. Jeff
posted in reply to your anti-Americanism, anti-war on terro & anti-Israel
threads about a month ago.
> As far as crossposting to other groups, again I will say that this is a
> function, and a useful one at that, of usenet. Once upon a time, this
> group had lots of activity, and cross-posting was a rarity. When it
> occurred, which was often as part of trolling by outsiders, it was
> perceived as a breach of (n)ettiqite. However, I've periodically
> cross-posted to both here and to groups like alt.punk, when I though
> that there might be mutual interest in some topic. As far as posting
> this topic to the country groups and to the Bush group (which, for
> those who don't know it, contains posts from folks all across the
> political spectrum, not just from the far right, I wanted, as I said,
> to simply see what they had to say about this topic, and I make no
> apologies for this.
So you make yet another political posting to this group KNOWING full well it
is going to start more shit in here & you don't feel to the need to
apologize for that. Says a lot right there.
> I am curious, of course, about one thing regarding those who are either
> "apolitical" or conservative, and about those who might have been here
> when we were grieving about 911 (which of course, some of you watched
> from a distance, as opposed to someone like me who was on the street
> watching the towers collapse.)
You witness that from the streets yet you get more mad at this country when
we go to defend ourselves & our way of life. The mind boggles.
> How do you live with the knowledge that
> this country was attacked by one group, and we now bogged down in a
> quagmire in a country that had nothing to do with this attack,
On Dec. 7th 1941 Japan attacked America. So what did we do?? We went to war
against Germany. Why? Because they were into the whole world domination
thing. Just as al quaeda & extremist muslims are.
> a
> quagmire that is costing American lives and American treasure;
The only ones calling it a 'quagmire' are those on the extreme left. It's
obvious they are scared shitless that something else may happen here which
could, yes could, cause the draft to come back making them be inline to have
to defend America. Their fear is in having to go & not that something can
happen here. And how is calling the War On Terror taking place on the front
line in Iraq 'supporting the troops' anyway??? It's a sad thing yes, very
sad, but in war live are lost. Good lives. Lives that are young. I have a
relative in Mosul right now that I pray to God to watch out for him.
> how do
> you live with the lies that we have been told (or do you deny that we
> have been)?
I don't know of any lies we have been told. Maybe michael moore & al franken
or moveon.org, or any other extremist have said lies were told but you have
to consider the source there.
> Does waving a flag, or sticking a "support the troops"
> bumper sticker on your vehicle really make you feel better?
Yes it does!! You should try it sometime.
> I am very
> curious to know your thoughts on this.
I am very curious to know as to why it is that you continually post this
bullshit that no one wants to see in here??
Nancy
partly because of posts like this I meant that ..*partly*. It was also
because of the constant trolling at the time. I had more than one negative
thing going on in my personal life and would come here for a break from all
the negativity only to see people arguing and being nasty....not just once
but over and over again...it wore on me and I decided to take a break.
I came in here the other day to specifically post to Tritt about the Olivia
concert and then started to read other posts. Also I wanted to touch base
with Rhonda about your book because she disappeared last time and I thought
of the book and asked about it. Therefore I am not familiar with all of your
other posts you've mentioned. Even while I wasn't posting I did lurk now and
then but never saw anything I wanted to reply to...sometimes it's fun just
to read even if you have nothing to add.
Tom I've always considered you a friend...and I even told Billy that I've
met you more than once and you are far from a condescending snob even though
some of your posts might make you seem that way. I know I've posted words
in here in the past that have been misunderstood by people and other's here
have agreed that the emotion/meaning behind a comment or question can not
always be read if you are not looking eye-to-eye to the person/people. For
instance when Buddy is ranting and raving you know *exactly* where he is
coming from (Buddy don't hit me :-) Also Buddy has more than once said he
would fight for everyone's rights to say there opinion like it or not. I
guess it's just personality differences??
To me the original post you made seemed like you were just trying to stir up
trouble because you do know the regulars in here and how upset people can
get. So if you wanted to discuss that subject why not just go to a group
that wants to discuss it?
As far as sticking a bumper sticker on my car...no it doesn't make ME feel
better, I think it might make the troops feel like they are not a bunch of
losers to be mocked by the very people they were thinking of when they
enlisted in the Armed Services.
So there..... Jolie if you think I'm a jerk for what I posted earlier,
that's your prerogative. I still would like to meet up with you New
Yorkers/New Jerseyers sometime in the near future. You know my email address
so email me if you want have anything you want to say to me.
<anti...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1124901940.4...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Tiny Dancer
feelings. I've been out of the loop since Friday afternoon due
to Sympatico's news server being down (which it appears to be
yet again, so I'm posting this through Google). I've played
catch-up and have read the entire thread while making dinner.
I'm glad George is working late tonight as my stomach couldn't
handle food right now :-(
I am beside myself reading these *very* personal attacks. This
is not the group I know and love. Tom, I have long known you
as an intelligent and, usually, well-intentioned man. I bow to
your musical knowledge and your book smarts. But, really, besides
the name Johnny Cash, what did the original posting have to do
with the '70s? At the very least it should have been marked as
OT 'cause that's what it was here. And why you'd drag a Bush ng
into the fray is beyond me. We've long had an understanding where
politics are concerned, so why wave the red flag at the bull?
Sure, they're entitled to their opinions, but that's what their
ng is for, not ours.
I'm very disappointed in the whole affair. Obviously, we can't
discuss politics without it going sideways, as we've proven yet
again. This is why we put a stop to it in the first place. We
have a lot of very opinionated people here, God bless 'em all,
but can we please keep some opinions to ourselves?
Ya wanna talk war, folks? Then discuss the hell outta the Vietnam
War, if you must, as that's the only one ON topic here.
Thanks for reading, I really do love you *all*, and I shall now
return to my job of posting '70s related tidbits.
Cheers,
TD
I could just sit around makin' music all day long
As long as I'm makin' my music
I know I cain't do nobody no wrong
And who knows? Maybe I'll come up with a song
And make people wanna stop their fussin' and fightin'
Long enough to sing a song
from Mac Davis' "I Believe In Music"
for a good time call
www.tinyd.net
The Original Sesame Street Lyrics and Sounds Archive
http://www.tinyd.net/sesame1.html
It Seems Like Yesterday
Official '70s newsgroup site
http://www.tinyd.net/70s.html
The Four Ways - Have Show, Will Travel
http://www.tinyd.net/fourways.html
Nancy
writing my last post.
I have first hand experience with problems of discussing politics in mixed
company. Last Christmas at my brother's house, my brother and Bill got into
a heated argument over Bush and the conversation started out very innocently
when someone brought up Saturday Night Live. The problem is that my brother
has a quick temper like Billy and when he asked that the subject be dropped,
Bill continued and then my brother lost it. Right now they are still not on
speaking terms. Talk about being stuck in the middle! My brother is gay so
you can take a wild guess as to who is pro-Bush and who's not ;-)
"Nancy" <na...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:2NWdndEVOO2...@comcast.com...
Yeff
> Yeff, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I respect the
> fact that you can put forth an argument in opposition to my own without
> spewing venom at the same time. As far as the substance of what you are
> saying here, as well as the source of your information, I have no doubt
> that some of the military who are over there believe in their cause; of
> course there are people out in Arizona and New Mexico who believe that
> any way now, UFOs will land and an intelligent life form will invite
> them aboard for a free space flight. Beliefs are not always based on
> objective facts.
Their beliefs are tempered by the fact that they spent combat tours in
Iraq. They saw things with their own eyes. What's more, what they're
saying dovetails exactly with what I'm reading on the military blogs[1].
Soldiers bitch - that's a universal truth. It's too hot, the food sucks,
there's too little sleep, too few showers, it's too cold, it's too wet,
it's too far, it's too heavy, it's too stupid, etc... that's all the kind
of normal bitching I'm hearing about. What I'm not hearing is talk of
Iraq being a quagmire or of the mission objectives being unattainable.
What I'm seeing is that it appears that it's not just "some of the military
who are over there [that] believe in their cause." It appears that that's
the *majority* opinion of the military personnel.
> As far as the Iraq-al Quada connection, this line of reasoning has been
> discredited by most expert sources.
Keep your eyes on the growing Able Danger scandal. The 9/11 Commission at
first denied knowing anything about Able Danger before acknowledging that
yes, they did know about the group. If what the former members of the Able
Danger are reporting is true, it calls into serious question the travel
time-line of Mohammed Atta, the suicide pilot of the first plane to hit the
WTC. To this day Czech intelligence insists that he met with an Iraqi
diplomat in Prague in April of 2001. While the 9/11 Commission dismissed
the possibility it appears their reasoning may be contradicted by Able
Danger if the Able Danger reports bear out.
Able Danger is significant in that they say they had knowledge of some of
the 9/11 high-jacker's before the attack but couldn't pass that information
on to law enforcement because of increased legal walls erected between the
intelligence community and law enforcement. Reportedly the chief architect
of those increased walls was Jamie Gorelick - who sat on the 9/11
Commission. If this turns out to be true than there was a clear conflict
of interest.
I think that with what's been coming to light these last two weeks, it
would be wrong to say that the Iraq/al Queda link has been discredited.
> There is much more evidence to suggest that certain factions, motivated
> by a combination of Irael, oil, and ideology, wanted to invade Iraq
> years before 911 and were looking at any pretext to do so.
I've mentioned before that regime change in Iraq was official US policy as
signed into law by President Clinton. We really were working to get rid of
Saddam Hussein before 9/11. After the attacks things changed, including
the urgency the administration felt in implementing official policy.
Leaving an acknowledged state sponsorer of terrorism like Saddam in place
just didn't make sense.
As for Israel? It just made ideological sense for the US to back the only
functioning democracy in the Middle East. As far as I can see that hasn't
changed.
When it comes to oil, that's currently the life-blood of world trade and
commerce. Iraqi ambitions directly threatened one of the worlds primary
sources. "No Blood For Oil" makes a nice slogan but it doesn't stand up to
the fact that when a major resource is threatened there *will* be war.
Water, arable land, food... oil. Threaten a country's access to any of
those and watch how quickly armies are mobilized.
--
-Jeff B.
zoomie at fastmail dot fm
[1] <http://www.ringsurf.com/netring?ring=MiliBlogs;id=1;action=list>
.oO rach Oo.
space for one time) is getting to be uncomfortable so I don't bother. After
three months of solid morning sickness and the odd time now (at five months)
I just don't have the energy to do anything.
--
.oO rach Oo.
.oO rach Oo.
ISP) so I wasn't sure what shit storm you are referring to.
Yeff
> Oh yeah and also... with being pregnant,
I'd just like to go on record as saying that, despite our torrid three-week
affair in Paris - we'll always have Paris - I having nothing to do with the
aforementioned pregnancy.
The anonymous phone calls with the heavy breathing? Yeah, that was me.
--
-Jeff B. (lightening the mood)
Killer Rabbit
"Stan Jensen" <sp...@wonderful.spam> wrote in message
news:u7qpg1tl7gvna3d08...@4ax.com...
I was just about to reply to Tom's post when I read yours (I'm trying to
catch up here...been working a lot!). I'm pretty much in the same boat as
you and had the same exact response as you. If the topic isn't something I
know or am interested in, why respond? Just to make someone feel better?
Hell, I've put up posts and sometimes no one responds. Big deal. I'll pop
in my little saying, "better to look like a fool then open my mouth and
removing all doubt".
Since I'm a "loner" too, I hope you don't mind me sharing the boat. ;-)
Lori =^.^=
--
"The fool looks at a finger that points at the sky."
"MIDIcian" (tm)
news:dehn1...@enews1.newsguy.com...
>> What "free" elections. Those were held on machines, with easily
>> manipulated results. All someone had to do is open a file and change the
>> results.
>
> Well.. that would explain Clinton's two terms.
No, that was before you Republican'ts had control of the particular
computers that hold the particular files that had to be changed to reverse
election results.
> Maybe you prefer we chisel on stone tablets.
Not at all, I think we should all be voting on paper ballots.
Stan
"MIDIcian" (tm)
need to impersonate my headers to create a "straw man" out of me?) -
+- +- +- +-
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From: "\"MIDIcian\" \(tm\)" <St...@NeverFalls.com>
Newsgroups:
alt.culture.us.1970s,rec.music.country.western,alt.music.country,uk.music.country,alt.politics.bush
Subject: Re: What would Hank Williams or Woody Guthrie say?
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 07:54:12 -0400
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""MIDIcian" (tm)" <St...@NeverFalls.com> wrote in message
news:degt6o$jqb$0...@pita.alt.net...
> "Stupid *ELEPHANTS*, see 'em holding each other's tails"
Stupid donkeys, see them making asses of themselves.
+- +- +- +-
"MIDIcian" (tm)
in the time-frame of Clinton's excellent Presidency. It's just that they
got control of the needed positions in Texas before they spread it out to
Florida and Ohio.
Stan
+- +- +- +-
""MIDIcian" (tm)" <St...@NeverFalls.com> wrote in message
news:dejgen$rtm$0...@pita.alt.net...
Stan Jensen
<killer.rabb...@verizon.net> wrote:
>Since I'm a "loner" too, I hope you don't mind me sharing the boat. ;-)
>
>Lori =^.^=
Yeah, there's enough room for two of us. I've got enough supplies.
Just one caveat tho.. at night, if it's clear, I don't have lights on
so I can use my telescope.:)
S.
Jason
Stan Jensen wrote:
"we all feel better in the dark"...
Room in the boat for one more? (Or maybe a Zodiac tied to the stern?
Although at this rate in a while it will be awfully low in the water with
all the loners who wanted in!
Jason
if 6 were 9
And yes, we will always have Paris... and the bathwater
if 6 were 9
are both on Sympatico. Anyway, to read all this on Google was a bit of
surprise.
When it comes down to it, strong people have strong opinions. That's
the way it is. After over 200 years of living by the gun, it never
surprises me that most Americans are still a bomb em all brand of
thinking. Maybe there isn't anything wrong with that. Who am I to say?
I don't see why politics shouldn't be discussed here but I know it
can't be if that makes sense. If it just dissolves down to people
calling someone else a redneck or whatever and education has nothing to
do with it. Education never gave anyone any common sense.
I have my opinions on the matter and sure - Adam and I see Bush on TV
and just get pissed off but people that support him are entitled to
their opinions. It just seems like before, the conservatives were the
ones that tended to get all bent out of shape and pissy when their
opinion was questioned but now it seems everyone is in that category.
If you can't take the criticism or questioning about your ideas... even
if you do feel it IS just you then maybe don't bring it up.
Adam and I had a half discussion with a cousin of mine regarding gay
marriage back in March. He is a complete zealot and went on about how
this is a Christian country etc. I said if he thought that, he should
open his eyes and his mind... just in conversation. He became furious,
yelled a bunch of crap and left the gathering and hasn't spoken to us
since. We find this hilarious. I can just imagine what he'll say when
he finds out the baby isn't going to be baptized and that the baby will
decide what religion or spirituality it wants to believe in. Who am I
to force it down anyone's throat... and same with this.
I had thought Tom said he wouldn't post about politics anymore either
and to say "well so and so did so that makes it ok" is just childish.
Tom made the "promise" so Tom should keep the promise and to hell with
what else is said. Not to belittle it but if someone else jumped off a
cliff , would Tom jump too?
anti...@earthlink.net
The Wanderer wrote:
> I think it was I who broke this agreement. Nut I wasn't trying to be overtly
> political. I was reporting to a loss of our Fourth Amendment rights in using
> mass transit in NYC. I thought that maybe the Constitution of that United
> States (the thing that makes us uniquely American, and supposedly JOINS us
> together) was important to people around the country. I guess I was wrong.
> Even here, it seems that as soon as people are overcome with fear they
> become willing to give up Constitutional rights, as listed in the Bill Of
> Rights. That's what happened in NY in regards to our Second Amendment in the
> mid '60s, and is happening now in regards our Fourth Amendment. I guess our
> Constitution really doesn't mean anything to most people. And if stating
> that has caused a problem in here I apologize, and shed a tear for America.
> If I started it this time I apologize.
>
> --
> Buddy
> from Brooklyn
Okay, this probably ought to be the last post from me on this thread,
Buddy, but yeah, you've posted political messages, among other topics,
as have I, and as have others. All of a sudden, though, I get called on
it because one of my posts happened to have offended an oh so
hypersensitive (now apparently former) member of this group who now
invokes some tentative agreement - long ago broken - not to discuss
certain *taboo* topics. This same individual has consistently reacted
with venom, but just to me, and rarely to you, even though you and I
have similar politics which have been periodically expressed here. And
once again - this is getting really tiresome - these political
expressions generally tend to be contextual and related, even if
indirectly, to the topic of the 70s, and to related topics, for
example, a new Rolling Stones song and/or to some previous discussion.
This is always how I've read your "political" posts, as I hope it's how
you've read mine. And again, it's been proven over and over that, yes,
adults can discuss political or any other potentially *controversial*
topics without coming to blows. (Speaking personally, I am always
interested in learning more about various political philosophies -
everything from anarchism to libertarianism to Keynsianism and
political topics - be they the military (hats off to Yeff for being
informative) to gun control to subway searches, or whatever. It's all
interesting. What I have no interest in, other than to point it out as
a phenomenon, are irrational rantings which make no sense) At least I
know I can, as can you, and can others here. And we can also do so
contextually, without violating the spirit of the group. And that is
what has existed here - a kind of friendly group spirit, not a set of
hard rules (i.e., about taboo topics, or raunchiness, or no cross
posting, etc. To me getting worked up about violating such "rules" is
making a mountain out of a molehill) I have a few rules I try to
follow, such as the golden rule of treating others as I would like to
be treated (but conversely, defending myself, as well as those I care
about when I/we are unfairly attacked. The other rule I try to follow
is to seek the truth, and to follow/apply it - not to preach, or, as
some might suggest to "impose" myself as a group "teacher", but to seek
truth and cut through crap. Other than this, I think that most rules
are probably meant to be broken. If this makes me a "bastard," it's too
bad that that might be someone's perception of me, but I think I can
live with that. I know I certainly do not have any rules about what is
an appropriate topic, and what is not, for a group such as this; it
also seems to me that the convention of using an "OT" in a header has
long ago dissolved, given the high volume of OT topics.
Anyway, them's my $0.02
Tom
anti...@earthlink.net
recsec wrote:
> Is this what you wnated me to find Tom??
> "From: antipositiv...@127.0.0.1 (antipositiv...@127.0.0.1)
> Subject: Re: Regarding Political and Religious Posts, Etc.
> View: Complete Thread (46 articles)
> Original Format
> Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.1970s
> Date: 2002-01-26 10:11:21 PST
> Okay, I can certainly take a hint. From here on in, you will not hear a peep
> out of me on the "controversial" topics of politics or religion or anything
> else controversial. You won't hear me advocating bring back polytheism, or
> calling for anarchy in the USA, or anything of that sort. I will go with
> the consensus here.
> Again, all I ask is for consistency."
> Sounds like a promise to me.
It was an implied CONDITIONAL promise; I was here reiterating a
promise that if by group consensus there were no more political
comments/discussions or social issue comments/discussions I would
follow that consensus and refrain from it. However others - such as
yourself - did not follow that consensus and so I felt that it no
longer applied. In fact not only was it not followed in some instances
but it was expressed via insults (toward one's political opponents).
> Again I ask you. What is YOUR definition of "consistency"?
> Billy
I've answered that. In the meantime you can check via google on the
threads you were referring to earlier and note that in most instances
I was not the initiator of the post; in those cases where I was I was
offering a topic in reference to a related earlier posted topic. And
you can also check and see that the references to peanut butter that
you kept harping about were not made by me.
anti...@earthlink.net
if 6 were 9 wrote:
> If it just dissolves down to people
> calling someone else a redneck or whatever and education has nothing to
> do with it.
Rach, the "redneck" comment was a reference to a person's actions, not
to the person himself, and were in response to (a.) being screamed at
(b.) having my words/intentions completely distorted, ©.) being
singled out, even though others have brought up "taboo" topics (d.)
being told I "hate America," with the implication that I side with the
terrorists, (e.) having the integrity of people of my part of the
country called into question, and then (f.) seeing my wife insulted.
Given this, if you want to hold just me accountable for what has
occurred here, that is your prerogative. How would you have handled
matters if you were in my shoes?
Tom
if 6 were 9
just seems like things are getting a bit childish. Who cares if someone
"screams" at you in a post, or you feel you are being singled out or
anything else? If it isn't true, why should it bother you? If you are
just expressing your opinion, why should it bother you so much? I am
sure no other leaders, new thinkers or people that went off the beaten
path ever had it easy when they did. You are accountable for your own
actions not anyone elses so how you react to someone else's actions is
something you own.
anti...@earthlink.net
want to rehash old matters, but did it not bother you back when you and
Buddy and others were discussing Brittney Spears? Buddy was just
expressing his opinion then, as far as I can recall, and you took it
rather personally. Perhaps you would react differently top such a
situation now, following your own advice above, and perhaps this is
some wisdom that you are offering now, and if so, I accept it as
something like a gift
It is because I respect and like you that I can be open and honest
here.
Tom
The Wanderer
I made in response; I thought it was well spoken. I asked about a 70s
related topic: affirmative action, and somehow the peanut butter
conversation was brought up with Tom getting the blame for statements that I
had made. But in my response I thought that I said what I meant with no
malice, and just in the interest of starting a lively 70s based
conversation. That had happened before i.e. Watergate, where we rarely
agreed but were always at least civil while trading thoughts and ideas. Such
is the basis for education and learning new things. And I feel that I can
learn from most anyone, even if only how they feel about a subject. But if
I'm lucky they'll tell me why, and then extend the same privilage to me. I
have learned from racists, Black Panthers, republicans, democrats,
communists, libertarians, college professors, high school dropouts, military
personnel, draft dodgers, cops, criminals, firemen, etc. I am not one of
those people, and have little if anything in common with those mentioned
(and so many more) but I always find it an education of sorts to hear what
other people think, and why (as long as they dont talk "down" to me). A
while back Yeff and I had a major disagreement. I'm sure that I could have
handled it much better than I did but he used a lot of military jargon that
I am unfamiliar with, particularly anagrams (is that the term? I always get
this one mixed up with acronyms). I felt that he was talking down to me. He
almost always makes a good point whether I agree or not (and likely as not I
wont). But for the most part his posts are enlightening and informative. I
believe that he is "on the right" and basically a "company man", having
spent so much time in the service. I will rarely agree with his posts but on
SOME things he does know quite a bit more than I. That is no reason to
shout, or call names. If a man's right, he's right. And me reacting badly is
not going to make him wrong and me right. But if I open my ears I might just
hear something that I THOUGHT I knew, but was incorrect about. And only if I
allow that maybe I'm not always right, and not disallow other's opinions,
might I learn and grow. Such is the nature of discussion. I agree with Tom
on many thing, but not everything. I agree with Billy on some things also.
They both have their "moments".
I'm sorry that things blew up the way they did. And I'm
sorry that Billy left. I did think that his rant was based more in personal
invective and insult than logic. And it's unfortunate because he had a
point. Maybe one I disagreed with, but a point. In so far as the word
"bastards" being used about Tom and his lady Jolie (even if widely drawn) I
was appalled at the source, and greatly disappointed.
Now, if we can return to our usual program and get back
to a topic related to the '70s:
Who had the biggest tits in the '70s? The best Camel Toe??? Who
would you most like to have boned (or boned by) in the '70s?
(PS I'll probably get shit over this post but hey, my skin is thick and not
everybody has to think my way or shut up.)
--
Buddy
from Brooklyn
http://geocities.com/thewanderer315/
http://www.tinyd.net/70buddy.html
http://www.johnlennon.it/galleria_fotografica.htm
"Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God."
Thomas Paine
"No free man shall ever be de-barred the use of arms. The strongest reason
for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is as a last resort
to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
Thomas Jefferson
"First make sure you're right, then go ahead."
Davy Crockett
" There are certain sections in New York I wouldn't advise you to try to
invade."
Humphrey Bogart's line -as Rick- to Nazi officer in "Casablanca"
"The making of an American begins at the point where he himself rejects all
other ties, any other history, and himself adopts the vesture of his adopted
land."
James Baldwin
<anti...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1124980733.4...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
if 6 were 9
at the time my stress from work had caused a breakdown and I was off
work for several months.
Right now, I could care less. Maybe it's the influence of a certain
Brit or maybe it's just time but I just don't think it's worth all the
hurt feelings and people leaving. There are so many worse things in the
world, why create more that cannot hold a candle to the shit some other
people are going through?
As example... I had a call from a lady the other day that had come here
to go to University in Toronto. She had just moved in to her basement
apartment in a bad area of town (what she could afford) and there was a
huge downpour that flooded her new apartment with a metre of water. She
said it came through the toilet and everything so the place was
condemned for a month. I commented on how calm she was but she just
laughed and said she was just happy to be here to get the education.
The next caller was a lady that completely flipped out on me because
her payment had arrived after her bill was printed. She was up to date,
the payment had been received but she just couldn't SEE it on her bill.
She went on for more than half an hour, yelling and cussing. Guess who
will likely live longer?
That kind of stuff really opens my eyes and why I love working with the
public.
The Wanderer
otherwise traitors. And it pisses me off, too. For instance if you say the
US firebombed Dresden in WWII they come back with "So how long have you
hated America?" Same if you say that the Indians got fucked over. They would
like us to believe that the US has never done, nor could ever do, anything
less than spiritual perfection and deeds that are just wonderful in every
way for everybody. Well, even if they were brought over by "foreigners"
(yes, I'm quite the xenophobe at times) would the human beings who filled
the slave ships agree with that statement? Nor do I think that the ghosts of
the Indians who were given those disease ridden blankets agree with that.
Some people just dont want to admit that in any situation that two people
disagree BOTH have played some part and NEITHER is without blame. It all a
matter of degrees and no absolution is available. And I LOVE my country
enough to have been arrested and gone to jail to set her on what I felt was
the right path. I did not serve in tha armed forces but that does not mean I
love America any les that anyone who did. And I think I can speak for Tom,
after some of our long discussions, and say that so does he. It's like your
mother and my mother; we both love our mothers but maybe we have different
ways to show it and different value systems. I buy my mother (who's actually
dead) flowers for Mother's Day, and you take yours to dinner. Which one of
us loves our mother more? How can that question be asked rationally? Who
loves America more? Sam difference.
--
Buddy
from Brooklyn
http://geocities.com/thewanderer315/
http://www.tinyd.net/70buddy.html
http://www.johnlennon.it/galleria_fotografica.htm
"Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God."
Thomas Paine
"No free man shall ever be de-barred the use of arms. The strongest reason
for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is as a last resort
to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
Thomas Jefferson
"First make sure you're right, then go ahead."
Davy Crockett
" There are certain sections in New York I wouldn't advise you to try to
invade."
Humphrey Bogart's line -as Rick- to Nazi officer in "Casablanca"
"The making of an American begins at the point where he himself rejects all
other ties, any other history, and himself adopts the vesture of his adopted
land."
James Baldwin
<anti...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1124983259.8...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
J.Leonard
> computers that hold the particular files that had to be changed to reverse
> election results.
Hmm. You mean to say we didn't have computer voting during the Clinton
years???? What 'particular computers'? What 'particular files'? Where are
your facts and sources? Oh, I forgot. It doesn't take facts to make ignorant
accusations. A fact that communists like you know all too well.
Is that preparation H on your lips? Cuz your'e talking out of your ass
again.
>
>
>> Maybe you prefer we chisel on stone tablets.
>
> Not at all, I think we should all be voting on paper ballots.
>
And we all know how reliable those were in 2000 in FL. As we all know,
nothing bad can happen to PAPER ballots. Like tearing, water damage fire. Or
Hanging, dangling, pregnant, dimpled chads, etc. Yeah, that would be a real
success story.
J.Leonard
> I believe the elections you mentioned (*INCLUDING* against Ann Richards)
> were stolen.
>
The last presidential election that was officially documented as stolen was,
of course, liberal icon JFK's. The mob, unions and other champions of
piousness and ethics, that democrats seem to attract, made sure Illinois
carried JFK, and thus the election.
J.Leonard
""MIDIcian" (tm)" <St...@NeverFalls.com> wrote in message
>I think I err'd in that statement. I think the Bush/Richards election was
>in the time-frame of Clinton's excellent Presidency. It's just that they
>got control of the needed positions in Texas before they spread it out to
>Florida and Ohio.
Who got control? Who are the persons in 'needed positions' and what were
those positions in Texas, Florida and Ohio? Come on, ignoramous. Name names.
"MIDIcian" (tm)
slimy ones, short fat juicy ones. Itsy bitsy fuzzy wuzzy worms.
""MIDIcian" (tm)" <St...@NeverFalls.com> wrote in message
news:dejghg$s7o$0...@pita.alt.net...
anti...@earthlink.net
Buddy thanks very much for this, and for your other post, for your
honesty (something I really value and know I can count on from you) as
well as for your support here. You and I are very good friends, but I
know you have had a friendly relationship with Billy. I therefore don't
expect you to "take sides," only to try to see all sides and to try to
understand them, which you have done. It is much appreciated. That
said, there is a chill in the air here, and I no longer feel all that
welcome here. Some people have said some things which need to be
clarified, and I am awaiting on this.
As your other post indicated, a number of us have been involved in a
variety of different posts here which are in varying ways off topic, or
even potentially controversial, and generally unproblematically so. It
shouldn't then be a matter of who is to "blame" for these. Generally
these seem to me to be related, either directly or indirectly to either
the 70s or to previous discussions here. I find ridiculous the notion
that anyone should self-censor so as to avoid potentially "offending"
one or two insecure, thin skinned individuals who are not grownup
enough to handle adult discourse without flying off the handle. I also
find ridiculous that someone would interpret everything that someone
else has written as "political" as if it is part of some grand
conspiracy.
That said, and in response to what you have stated here, as far as the
notion of who is or who is not "patriotic," and whether or not
questioning your government (as well as questioning the faux patriotism
of certain cultural factions) is patriotic or not, again, your standard
of being honest and facing the facts is needed. I do indeed love this
country; I always have, and I always will. However, as Thomas Jefferson
once said, dissent is an essential aspect of patriotism. When our
government lies to us and/or commits atrocities in our name, as it has
in recent years, it is our right and our duty to speak out.
One last thing I just came across. A map showing the number of
casualties in cowboy Bush's war in Iraq and where these brave
individuals hail from. Notice the high concentration from all the
"librul" blue states like NY and NJ?
http://icasualties.org/oif/images/US_City.jpg
Tom
The Wanderer
are from the large cities wherever they fall. But the great majority DO seem
to be from the blue states. Everyone knows my feelings about the whole
thing, and they are of no great import in this issue. But as was pointed
out, in he past we actually were able as a group to discuss without much in
the way of being disagreeable. And as I use in my sig line:
"Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God."
Thomas Paine
--
Buddy
from Brooklyn
http://geocities.com/thewanderer315/
http://www.tinyd.net/70buddy.html
http://www.johnlennon.it/galleria_fotografica.htm
"Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God."
Thomas Paine
"No free man shall ever be de-barred the use of arms. The strongest reason
for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is as a last resort
to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
Thomas Jefferson
"First make sure you're right, then go ahead."
Davy Crockett
" There are certain sections in New York I wouldn't advise you to try to
invade."
Humphrey Bogart's line -as Rick- to Nazi officer in "Casablanca"
"The making of an American begins at the point where he himself rejects all
other ties, any other history, and himself adopts the vesture of his adopted
land."
James Baldwin
<anti...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1125061686.1...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
anti...@earthlink.net
The Wanderer wrote:
> And as I use in my sig line:
> "Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God."
> Thomas Paine
You may like this article then
http://dissidentvoice.org/Aug05/Sanders0824.htm
if 6 were 9
skewed?
Yeff
> One last thing I just came across. A map showing the number of
> casualties in cowboy Bush's war in Iraq and where these brave
> individuals hail from. Notice the high concentration from all the
> "librul" blue states like NY and NJ?
It seems to me you're coming to a conclusion without considering population
density. Be that as it may, and since we're talking about casualties, ever
hear of Michael Yon? He's the guy who took this rather powerful picture
after a suicide attack in Mosul back in May of this year:
<http://photos1.blogger.com/img/233/3034/1024/Yon%20Iraq%20Photo.jpg>
No, the little 5-year old girl didn't survive.
Mr. Yon is a freelance journalist who's currently in Iraq covering the war
on his own dime. He's a former US Army Special Forces soldier (Green
Beret) and graduated the Q Course (special forces qualification) at the
amazingly young age of 19.
He's still in Mosul and is imbedded with "Deuce Four" (1st Battalion, 24th
Infantry Regiment). He was on the scene when Lieutenant Colonel Erik
Kurilla, commander of Deuce Four, was shot three times. That story, along
with pictures, was just published on his blog yesterday:
<http://michaelyon.blogspot.com/2005/08/gates-of-fire.html>
You should read it.
-----
Still speaking of casualties, meet PFC Chance Phelps, USMC:
<http://www.run4chance.com/images/chance.jpg>
PFC Phelps was shot and killed during combat operations west of Baghdad on
April 4th, 2004. LtCol M.R. Strobl, USMC, escorted Chance home and wrote
the following account:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chance Phelps was wearing his Saint Christopher medal when he was killed
on Good Friday. Eight days later, I handed the medallion to his mother.
I didn't know Chance before he died. Today, I miss him. Over a year ago,
I volunteered to escort the remains of Marines killed in Iraq should the
need arise. The military provides a uniformed escort for all casualties
to ensure they are delivered safely to the next of kin and are treated
with dignity and respect along the way.
Thankfully, I hadn't been called on to be an escort since Operation
Iraqi Freedom began. The first few weeks of April, however, had been a
tough month for the Marines. On the Monday after Easter I was reviewing
Department of Defense press releases when I saw that a Private First
Class Chance Phelps was killed in action outside of Baghdad. The press
release listed his hometown—the same town I'm from. I notified our
Battalion adjutant and told him that, should the duty to escort PFC
Phelps fall to our Battalion, I would take him.
I didn't hear back the rest of Monday and all day Tuesday until 1800.
The Battalion duty NCO called my cell phone and said I needed to be
ready to leave for Dover Air Force Base at 1900 in order to escort the
remains of PFC Phelps.
Before leaving for Dover I called the major who had the task of
informing Phelps's parents of his death. The major said the funeral was
going to be in Dubois, Wyoming. (It turned out that PFC Phelps only
lived in my hometown for his senior year of high school.) I had never
been to Wyoming and had never heard of Dubois.
With two other escorts from Quantico, got to Dover AFB at 2330 on
Tuesday night. First thing on Wednesday we reported to the mortuary at
the base. In the escort lounge there were about half a dozen Army
soldiers and about an equal number of Marines waiting to meet up with
"their" remains for departure. PFC Phelps was not ready, however, and I
was told to come back on Thursday. Now, at Dover with nothing to do and
a solemn mission ahead, I began to get depressed.
I was wondering about Chance Phelps. I didn't know anything about him;
not even what he looked like. I wondered about his family and what it
would be like to meet them. I did pushups in my room until I couldn't
do any more.
On Thursday morning I reported back to the mortuary. This time there
was a new group of Army escorts and a couple of the Marines who had
been there Wednesday. There was also an Air Force captain there to
escort his brother home to San Diego.
We received a brief covering our duties, the proper handling of the
remains, the procedures for draping a flag over a casket, and of course,
the paperwork attendant to our task. We were shown pictures of the
shipping container and told that each one contained, in addition to the
casket, a flag. I was given an extra flag since Phelps's parents were
divorced. This way they would each get one. I didn't like the idea of
stuffing the flag into my luggage but I couldn't see carrying a large
flag, folded for presentation to the next of kin, through an airport
while in my Alpha uniform. It barely fit into my suitcase.
It turned out that I was the last escort to leave on Thursday. This
meant that I repeatedly got to participate in the small ceremonies that
mark all departures from the Dover AFB mortuary.
Most of the remains are taken from Dover AFB by hearse to the airport
in Philadelphia for air transport to their final destination. When the
remains of a service member are loaded onto a hearse and ready to leave
the Dover mortuary, there is an announcement made over the building's
intercom system. With the announcement, all service members working at
the mortuary, regardless of service branch, stop work and form up along
the driveway to render a slow ceremonial salute as the hearse departs.
Escorts also participated in each formation until it was their time to
leave.
On this day there were some civilian workers doing construction on the
mortuary grounds. As each hearse passed, they would stoop working and
place their hard hats over their hearts. This was my first sign that my
mission with PFC Phelps was larger than the Marine Corps and that his
family and friends were not grieving alone.
Eventually I was the last escort remaining in the lounge. The Marine
Master Gunnery Sergeant in charge of the Marine liaison there came to
see me. He had Chance Phelps's personal effects. He removed each item;
a large watch, a wooden cross with a lanyard, two loose dog tags, two
dog tags on a chain, and a Saint Christopher medal on a silver chain.
Although we had been briefed that we might be carrying some personal
effects of the deceased, this set me aback. Holding his personal
effects, I was starting to get to know Chance Phelps.
Finally we were ready. I grabbed my bags and went outside. I was
somewhat startled when I saw the shipping container, loaded three-quarters
of the way in to the back of a black Chevy Suburban that had been
modified to carry such cargo. This was the first time I saw my "cargo"
and I was surprised at how large the shipping container was. The Master
Gunnery Sergeant and I verified that the name on the container was
Phelps's then they pushed him the rest of the way in and we left. Now
it was PFC Chance Phelps's turn to receive the military—and construction
workers'—honors. He was finally moving towards home.
As I chatted with the driver on the hour-long trip to Philadelphia, it
became clear that he considered it an honor to be able to contribute in
getting Chance home. He offered his sympathy to the family. I was glad
to finally be moving yet apprehensive about what things would be like
at the airport. I didn't want this package to be treated like ordinary
cargo yet I knew that the simple logistics of moving around a box this
large would have to overrule my preferences.
When we got to the Northwest Airlines cargo terminal at the Philadelphia
airport, the cargo handler and hearse driver pulled the shipping
container onto a loading bay while I stood to the side and executed a
slow salute. Once Chance was safely in the cargo area, and I was
satisfied that he would be treated with due care and respect, the
hearse driver drove me over to the passenger terminal and dropped me
off.
As I walked up to the ticketing counter in my uniform, a Northwest
employee started to ask me if I knew how to use the automated boarding
pass dispenser. Before she could finish another ticketing agent
interrupted her. He told me to go straight to the counter then
explained to the woman that I was a military escort. She seemed
embarrassed. The woman behind the counter already had tears in her eyes
as I was pulling out my government travel voucher. She struggled to
find words but managed to express her sympathy for the family and thank
me for my service. She upgraded my ticket to first class.
After clearing security, I was met by another Northwest Airline
employee at the gate. She told me a representative from cargo would be
up to take me down to the tarmac to observe the movement and loading of
PFC Phelps. I hadn't really told any of them what my mission was but
they all knew.
When the man from the cargo crew met me, he, too, struggled for words.
On the tarmac, he told me stories of his childhood as a military brat
and repeatedly told me that he was sorry for my loss. I was starting to
understand that, even here in Philadelphia, far away from Chance's
hometown, people were mourning with his family.
On the tarmac, the cargo crew was silent except for occasional
instructions to each other. I stood to the side and saluted as the
conveyor moved Chance to the aircraft. I was relieved when he was
finally settled into place. The rest of the bags were loaded and I
watched them shut the cargo bay door before heading back up to board
the aircraft.
One of the pilots had taken my carry-on bag himself and had it stored
next to the cockpit door so he could watch it while I was on the tarmac.
As I boarded the plane, I could tell immediately that the flight
attendants had already been informed of my mission. They seemed a
little choked up as they led me to my seat.
About 45 minutes into our flight I still hadn't spoken to anyone expect
to tell the first class flight attendant that I would prefer water. I
was surprised when the flight attendant from the back of the plane
suddenly appeared and leaned down to grab my hands. She said, "I want
you to have this" as she pushed a small gold crucifix, with a relief of
Jesus, into my hand. It was her lapel pin and it looked somewhat worn.
I suspected it had been hers for quite some time. That was the only
thing she said to me the entire flight.
When we landed in Minneapolis, I was the first one off the plane. The
pilot himself escorted me straight down the side stairs of the exit
tunnel to the tarmac. The cargo crew there already knew what was on
this plane. They were unloading some of the luggage when an Army
sergeant, a fellow escort who had left Dover earlier that day, appeared
next to me. His "cargo" was going to be loaded onto my plane for its
continuing leg. We stood side-by-side in the dark and executed a slow
salute as Chance was removed from the plane. The cargo crew at
Minneapolis kept Phelps's shipping case separate from all the other
luggage as they waited to take us to the cargo area. I waited with the
soldier and we saluted together as his fallen comrade was loaded onto
the plane.
My trip with Chance was going to be somewhat unusual in that we were
going to have an overnight stopover. We had a late start out of Dover
and there was just too much traveling ahead of us to continue on that
day. (We still had a flight from Minneapolis to Billings, Montana, then
a five-hour drive to the funeral home. That was to be followed by a
90-minute drive to Chance's hometown.)
I was concerned about leaving him overnight in the Minneapolis cargo
area. My ten-minute ride from the tarmac to the cargo holding area
eased my apprehension. Just as in Philadelphia, the cargo guys in
Minneapolis were extremely respectful and seemed honored to do their
part. While talking with them, I learned that the cargo supervisor for
Northwest Airlines at the Minneapolis airport is a Lieutenant Colonel
in the Marine Corps Reserves. They called him for me and let me talk to
him.
Once I was satisfied that all would be okay for the night, I asked one
of the cargo crew if he would take me back to the terminal so that I
could catch my hotel's shuttle. Instead, he drove me straight to the
hotel himself. At the hotel, the Lieutenant Colonel called me and said
he would personally pick me up in the morning and bring me back to the
cargo area.
Before leaving the airport, I had told the cargo crew that I wanted to
come back to the cargo area in the morning rather than go straight to
the passenger terminal. I felt bad for leaving Chance overnight and
wanted to see the shipping container where I had left it for the night.
It was fine.
The Lieutenant Colonel made a few phone calls then drove me around to
the passenger terminal. I was met again by a man from the cargo crew
and escorted down to the tarmac. The pilot of the plane joined me as I
waited for them to bring Chance from the cargo area. The pilot and I
talked of his service in the Air Force and how he missed it.
I saluted as Chance was moved up the conveyor and onto the plane. It
was to be a while before the luggage was to be loaded so the pilot took
me up to the board the plane where I could watch the tarmac from a
window. With no other passengers yet on board, I talked with the flight
attendants and one of the cargo guys. He had been in the Navy and one
of the attendants had been in the Air Force. Everywhere I went, people
were continuing to tell me their relationship to the military. After
all the baggage was aboard, I went back down to the tarmac, inspected
the cargo bay, and watched them secure the door.
When we arrived at Billings, I was again the first off the plane. This
time Chance's shipping container was the first item out of the cargo
hold. The funeral director had driven five hours up from Riverton,
Wyoming to meet us. He shook my hand as if I had personally lost a
brother.
We moved Chance to a secluded cargo area. Now it was time for me to
remove the shipping container and drape the flag over the casket. I had
predicted that this would choke me up but I found I was more concerned
with proper flag etiquette than the solemnity of the moment. Once the
flag was in place, I stood by and saluted as Chance was loaded onto the
van from the funeral home. I was thankful that we were in a small
airport and the event seemed to go mostly unnoticed. I picked up my
rental car and followed Chance for five hours until we reached Riverton.
During the long trip I imagined how my meeting with Chance's parents
would go. I was very nervous about that.
When we finally arrived at the funeral home, I had my first face-to-face
meeting with the Casualty Assistance Call Officer. It had been his duty
to inform the family of Chance's death. He was on the Inspector/Instructor
staff of an infantry company in Salt Lake City, Utah and I knew he had
had a difficult week.
Inside I gave the funeral director some of the paperwork from Dover and
discussed the plan for the next day. The service was to be at 1400 in
the high school gymnasium up in Dubois, population about 900, some 90
miles away. Eventually, we had covered everything. The CACO had some
items that the family wanted to be inserted into the casket and I felt
I needed to inspect Chance's uniform to ensure everything was proper.
Although it was going to be a closed casket funeral, I still wanted to
ensure his uniform was squared away.
Earlier in the day I wasn't sure how I'd handle this moment. Suddenly,
the casket was open and I got my first look at Chance Phelps. His
uniform was immaculate—a tribute to the professionalism of the Marines
at Dover. I noticed that he wore six ribbons over his marksmanship
badge; the senior one was his Purple Heart. I had been in the Corps for
over 17 years, including a combat tour, and was wearing eight ribbons.
This Private First Class, with less than a year in the Corps, had
already earned six.
The next morning, I wore my dress blues and followed the hearse for the
trip up to Dubois. This was the most difficult leg of our trip for me.
I was bracing for the moment when I would meet his parents and hoping I
would find the right words as I presented them with Chance's personal
effects.
We got to the high school gym about four hours before the service was
to begin. The gym floor was covered with folding chairs neatly lined in
rows. There were a few townspeople making final preparations when I
stood next to the hearse and saluted as Chance was moved out of the
hearse. The sight of a flag-draped coffin was overwhelming to some of
the ladies.
We moved Chance into the gym to the place of honor. A Marine sergeant,
the command representative from Chance's battalion, met me at the gym.
His eyes were watery as he relieved me of watching Chance so that I
could go eat lunch and find my hotel.
At the restaurant, the table had a flier announcing Chance's service.
Dubois High School gym; two o' clock. It also said that the family
would be accepting donations so that they could buy flak vests to send
to troops in Iraq.
I drove back to the gym at a quarter after one. I could've walked—you
could walk to just about anywhere in Dubois in ten minutes. I had
planned to find a quiet room where I could take his things out of their
pouch and untangle the chain of the Saint Christopher medal from the
dog tag chains and arrange everything before his parents came in. I had
twice before removed the items from the pouch to ensure they were all
there—even though there was no chance anything could've fallen out.
Each time, the two chains had been quite tangled. I didn't want to be
fumbling around trying to untangle them in front of his parents. Our
meeting, however, didn't go as expected.
I practically bumped into Chance's step-mom accidentally and our
introductions began in the noisy hallway outside the gym. In short
order I had met Chance's step-mom and father followed by his step-dad
and, at last, his mom. I didn't know how to express to these people my
sympathy for their loss and my gratitude for their sacrifice. Now,
however, they were repeatedly thanking me for bringing their son home
and for my service. I was humbled beyond words.
I told them that I had some of Chance's things and asked if we could
try to find a quiet place. The five of us ended up in what appeared to
be a computer lab—not what I had envisioned for this occasion. After we
had arranged five chairs around a small table, I told them about our
trip. I told them how, at every step, Chance was treated with respect,
dignity, and honor. I told them about the staff at Dover and all the
folks at Northwest Airlines. I tried to convey how the entire Nation,
from Dover to Philadelphia, to Minneapolis, to Billings, and Riverton
expressed grief and sympathy over their loss.
Finally, it was time to open the pouch. The first item I happened to
pull out was Chance's large watch. It was still set to Baghdad time.
Next were the lanyard and the wooden cross. Then the dog tags and the
Saint Christopher medal. This time the chains were not tangled. Once
all of his items were laid out on the table, I told his mom that I had
one other item to give them. I retrieved the flight attendant's
crucifix from my pocket and told its story. I set that on the table and
excused myself. When I next saw Chance's mom, she was wearing the
crucifix on her lapel.
By 1400 most of the seats on the gym floor were filled and people were
finding seats in the fixed bleachers high above the gym floor. There
were a surprising number of people in military uniform. Many Marines
had come up from Salt Lake City. Men from various VFW posts and the
Marine Corps League occupied multiple rows of folding chairs. We all
stood as Chance's family took their seats in the front.
It turned out the Chance's sister, a Petty Officer in the Navy, worked
for a Rear Admiral—the Chief of Naval Intelligence—at the Pentagon. The
Admiral had brought many of the sailors on his staff with him to Dubois
pay respects to Chance and support his sister. After a few songs and
some words from a Navy Chaplain, the Admiral took the microphone and
told us how Chance had died.
Chance was an artillery cannoneer and his unit was acting as provisional
military police outside of Baghdad. Chance had volunteered to man a .50
caliber machine gun in the turret of the leading vehicle in a convoy.
The convoy came under intense fire but Chance stayed true to his post
and returned fire with the big gun, covering the rest of the convoy,
until he was fatally wounded.
Then the commander of the local VFW post read some of the letters
Chance had written home. In letters to his mom he talked of the
mosquitoes and the heat. In letters to his stepfather he told of the
dangers of convoy operations and of receiving fire.
The service was a fitting tribute to this hero. When it was over, we
stood as the casket was wheeled out with the family following. The
casket was placed onto a horse-drawn carriage for the mile-long trip
from the gym, down the main street, then up the steep hill to the
cemetery. I stood alone and saluted as the carriage departed the high
school. I found my car and joined Chance's convoy.
The town seemingly went from the gym to the street. All along the route,
the people had lined the street and were waving small American flags.
The flags that were otherwise posted were all at half-staff. For the
last quarter mile up the hill, local boy scouts, spaced about 20 feet
apart, all in uniform, held large flags. At the foot of the hill, I
could look up and back and see the enormity of our procession. I
wondered how many people would be at this funeral if it were in, say,
Detroit or Los Angeles—probably not as many as were here in little
Dubois, Wyoming.
The carriage stopped about 15 yards from the grave and the military
pall bearers and the family waited until the men of the VFW and Marine
Corps league were formed up and schools busses had arrived carrying
many of the people from the procession route. Once the entire crowd was
in place, the pallbearers came to attention and began to remove the
casket from the caisson. As I had done all week, I came to attention
and executed a slow ceremonial salute as Chance was being transferred
from one mode of transport to another.
From Dover to Philadelphia; Philadelphia to Minneapolis; Minneapolis to
Billings; Billings to Riverton; and Riverton to Dubois we had been
together. Now, as I watched them carry him the final 15 yards, I was
choking up. I felt that, as long as he was still moving, he was somehow
still alive.
Then they put him down above his grave. He had stopped moving.
Although my mission had been officially complete once I turned him over
to the funeral director at the Billings airport, it was his placement
at his grave that really concluded it in my mind. Now, he was home to
stay and I suddenly felt at once sad, relieved, and useless.
The chaplain said some words that I couldn't hear and two Marines
removed the flag from the casket and slowly folded it for presentation
to his mother. When the ceremony was over, Chance's father placed a
ribbon from his service in Vietnam on Chance's casket. His mother
approached the casket and took something from her blouse and put it on
the casket. I later saw that it was the flight attendant's crucifix.
Eventually friends of Chance's moved closer to the grave. A young man
put a can of Coppenhagen on the casket and many others left flowers.
Finally, we all went back to the gym for a reception. There was enough
food to feed the entire population for a few days. In one corner of the
gym there was a table set up with lots of pictures of Chance and some
of his sports awards. People were continually approaching me and the
other Marines to thank us for our service. Almost all of them had some
story to tell about their connection to the military. About an hour
into the reception, I had the impression that every man in Wyoming had,
at one time or another, been in the service.
It seemed like every time I saw Chance's mom she was hugging a
different well wisher. As time passed, I began to hear people laughing.
We were starting to heal.
After a few hours at the gym, I went back to the hotel to change out of
my dress blues. The local VFW post had invited everyone over to
"celebrate Chance's life." The Post was on the other end of town from
my hotel and the drive took less than two minutes. The crowd was
somewhat smaller than what had been at the gym but the Post was packed.
Marines were playing pool at the two tables near the entrance and most
of the VFW members were at the bar or around the tables in the bar area.
The largest room in the Post was a banquet/dinning/dancing area and it
was now called "The Chance Phelps Room." Above the entry were two
items: a large portrait of Chance in his dress blues and the Eagle,
Globe, & Anchor. In one corner of the room there was another memorial
to Chance. There were candles burning around another picture of him in
his blues. On the table surrounding his photo were his Purple Heart
citation and his Purple Heart medal. There was also a framed copy of an
excerpt from the Congressional Record. This was an elegant tribute to
Chance Phelps delivered on the floor of the United States House of
Representatives by Congressman Scott McInnis of Colorado. Above it all
was a television that was playing a photo montage of Chance's life from
small boy to proud Marine.
I did not buy a drink that night. As had been happening all day, indeed
all week, people were thanking me for my service and for bringing
Chance home. Now, in addition to words and handshakes, they were
thanking me with beer. I fell in with the men who had handled the
horses and horse-drawn carriage. I learned that they had worked through
the night to groom and prepare the horses for Chance's last ride. They
were all very grateful that they were able to contribute.
After a while we all gathered in the Chance Phelps room for the formal
dedication. The Post commander told us of how Chance had been so
looking forward to becoming a Life Member of the VFW. Now, in the
Chance Phelps Room of the Dubois, Wyoming post, he would be an eternal
member. We all raised our beers and the Chance Phelps room was
christened.
Later, as I was walking toward the pool tables, a Staff Sergeant form
the Reserve unit in Salt Lake grabbed me and said, "Sir, you gotta hear
this." There were two other Marines with him and he told the younger
one, a Lance Corporal, to tell me his story. The Staff Sergeant said
the Lance Corporal was normally too shy and modest to tell it but now
he'd had enough beer to overcome his usual tendencies.
As the Lance Corporal started to talk, an older man joined our circle.
He wore a baseball cap that indicated he had been with the 1st Marine
Division in Korea. Earlier in the evening he had told me about one of
his former commanding officers; a Colonel Puller.
So, there I was, standing in a circle with three Marines recently
returned from fighting with the 1st Marine Division in Iraq and one not
so recently returned from fighting with the 1st Marine Division in
Korea. I, who had fought with the 1st Marine Division in Kuwait, was
about to gain a new insight into our Corps.
The young Lance Corporal began to tell us his story. At that moment, in
this circle of current and former Marines, the differences in our ages
and ranks dissipated—we were all simply Marines.
His squad had been on a patrol through a city street. They had taken
small arms fire and had literally dodged an RPG round that sailed
between two Marines. At one point they received fire from behind a wall
and had neutralized the sniper with a SMAW round. The back blast of the
SMAW, however, kicked up a substantial rock that hammered the Lance
Corporal in the thigh; only missing his groin because he had reflexively
turned his body sideways at the shot.
Their squad had suffered some wounded and was receiving more sniper
fire when suddenly he was hit in the head by an AK-47 round. I was
stunned as he told us how he felt like a baseball bat had been slammed
into his head. He had spun around and fell unconscious. When he came to,
he had a severe scalp wound but his Kevlar helmet had saved his life.
He continued with his unit for a few days before realizing he was
suffering the effects of a severe concussion.
As I stood there in the circle with the old man and the other Marines,
the Staff Sergeant finished the story. He told of how this Lance
Corporal had begged and pleaded with the Battalion surgeon to let him
stay with his unit. In the end, the doctor said there was just no
way—he had suffered a severe and traumatic head wound and would have to
be med'evaced.
The Marine Corps is a special fraternity. There are moments when we are
reminded of this. Interestingly, those moments don't always happen at
awards ceremonies or in dress blues at Birthday Balls. I have found,
rather, that they occur at unexpected times and places: next to a
loaded moving van at Camp Lejeune's base housing, in a dirty CP tent in
northern Saudi Arabia, and in a smoky VFW post in western Wyoming.
After the story was done, the Lance Corporal stepped over to the old
man, put his arm over the man's shoulder and told him that he, the
Korean War vet, was his hero. The two of them stood there with their
arms over each other's shoulders and we were all silent for a moment.
When they let go, I told the Lance Corporal that there were recruits
down on the yellow footprints tonight that would soon be learning his
story.
I was finished drinking beer and telling stories. I found Chance's
father and shook his hand one more time. Chance's mom had already left
and I deeply regretted not being able to tell her goodbye.
I left Dubois in the morning before sunrise for my long drive back to
Billings. It had been my honor to take Chance Phelps to his final post.
Now he was on the high ground overlooking his town.
I miss him.
Regards,
LtCol Strobl
-----
PFC Phelps was buried in Dubois, Wyoming on April 17th, 2004.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I just thought that since we're now politicizing the casualties here in the
group you'd like to get to know a few of them better.
--
-Jeff B.
Tiny Dancer
>To be fair, there are quite a few from the Houston area, also.
<snippage>
When I had those few days offline I found this:
http://www.snopes.com/photos/military/kiehl.asp
And I even wrote a posting about it. But that was erased when I returned
to the shitstorm that had been raised. I'd like to post it now to add to this
part of the discussion. We can't start tallying the dead by state or political
affiliation or whatever. *This* is what it all boils down to. Dead kids and the
people that love/loved them, amen and bless 'em all.
From the site (but you should click to see the pics to appreciate it):
U.S. Army Spc. James M. Kiehl of Comfort, Texas, was killed in
action in Iraq on 23 March 2003 when his convoy was attacked
near al-Nasiriyah. James had been assigned to a group of mechanics,
cooks, and supply clerks from the 507th Maintenance Company
out of Fort Bliss, Texas, and his team was ambushed while on
their way to repair computers on a Patriot missile launcher.
The 22-year-old soldier left behind a wife who was due to give
birth to the couple's first child within the next few weeks.
When the Army first listed James as missing in action, his friends in
Comfort (a small Texas town of about 1,200 residents) created an
improvised memorial to him which grew daily through additions and
messages from friends, residents, and visitors. Since James had
stated before he left for Iraq that he did not wish to be buried in
a military cemetery, after his parents learned of his death they
obtained a plot for him at the private Centre Point Cemetery near
their home.
On the day of James' funeral, much of the population of Comfort
— many of them bearing U.S. flags — turned out to line the route
of his funeral procession in a moving display of community support
for a lost friend and a fallen soldier. The images displayed above
were captured by James' 17-year-old cousin, Amy Pierce, and the
description accompanying them was penned by his aunt, Vicki Pierce.
James' aunt also created a memorial web site to James
<http://home.comcast.net/~cytdad/index.html>
with additional photographs, information, and tributes.
Cheers,
TD
What could he do?
Should have been a father
But he never even made it to his twenties
What a waste
from Kate Bush's "Army Dreamers"
for a good time call
www.tinyd.net
The Original Sesame Street Lyrics and Sounds Archive
http://www.tinyd.net/sesame1.html
It Seems Like Yesterday
Official '70s newsgroup site
http://www.tinyd.net/70s.html
The Four Ways - Have Show, Will Travel
http://www.tinyd.net/fourways.html
Tiny Dancer
>Still speaking of casualties, meet PFC Chance Phelps, USMC:
><http://www.run4chance.com/images/chance.jpg>
<major snippage to appease the server gods>
Wow, Yeff, thank you for posting this powerful message.
Kinda like the snopes link I posted, but much more moving.
Cheers,
TD
War
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
from Edwin Starr's "War"
Yeff
> Wow, Yeff, thank you for posting this powerful message.
> Kinda like the snopes link I posted, but much more moving.
Yes, there's real people behind the statistics of who died from which
State. I do believe you get it.
Here's another, this one written by one of your fellow Canuckian's when she
was writing for the National Post:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Only silence followed roll call
U.S. Army honours nine soldiers killed in ambush
Christie Blatchford
National Post
Saturday, April 12, 2003
FORT BLISS, Tex. - In the end, the young soldiers went with a fresh,
unopened, purse-sized pack of Kleenex on every other seat, atop the
programs, and several big opened boxes placed strategically on the cool
tiled floor of every row in the vast building.
They had tried every other imaginable combination -- a small pack on every
seat; only the large boxes on the floor; lining up the top edges of the
little packs with the lower edge of the program, and then with the upper.
It was the same with the nine empty pairs of combat boots, set below the
nine empty helmets and the nine M-16s and the nine framed pictures draped
with nine Purple Hearts, that sat at the front of the room.
Two young men in DCUs (Desert Camouflage Uniforms, which they are entitled
to wear because their unit is deploying) fiddled and futzed with the
tongues of those boots, first fluffing them out, then flattening them down,
until finally an officer came over and gently whispered, "Just leave them
alone. They're fine."
This is what life in the Army teaches: That through routine and
mind-numbing repetitious task shall you keep at bay frustration, temper,
fear, panic and the great sweeping tide of human emotions.
Only enormous loss pays no heed. Only death thumbs her nose.
It was toward the end of the roll call -- the traditional salute to fallen
comrades, with each name called aloud three times, each time louder, until
it is clear there will be no response of "Present!" -- that Command
Sergeant-Major Hank Young began to cry.
He was a few feet away from me at the big deployment centre yesterday, from
whence, not even two months ago, the 100 members of the 507th Maintenance
Company first set off for Iraq, and where now nine of those soldiers,
killed in action at an ambush near Nasiriya, were being remembered.
I noticed him first because he has one of those marvellous, ruddy, proud
faces that men who are both hard and soft end up wearing. Miners have them,
and some old hockey players and construction workers: They look always a
hair away from either awful quiet coldness or tenderness, and it is hard to
tell which is coming down the pipe.
Command Sgt.-Maj. Young was sitting on the aisle, and in the long wait for
the service to begin -- everyone was urged to come early, but the soldiers,
better used to doing what they're told than the general public, were there
hours before -- younger men and women kept coming up to him. He would lean
into them, and they would roughly bump shoulders, then clasp arms around
one another.
He participated in every step of the service with restrained dignity.
When the pianist was warming up, and tinkling a few bars of God Bless
America, I saw his shiny black boots playing out the tune; when he stood
for the national anthem, he was ramrod straight; during the several
prayers, he folded his big red hands together and placed them mid-chest and
bent his head; when a woman belted out a wonderful version of America the
Beautiful, he sang every word and never once had to look at his program;
when Colonel Robert Woods gave his odd, stirring speech, closing with the
line that sometimes, meeting the challenge ends up "with a helmet, a rifle,
a pair of boots and a couple of ID tags, displayed as they are here today"
and a great shout of "Hoo-wa!", Command Sgt.-Maj. Young shouted along.
When a wiry little woman, Specialist Kristine Hadano, marched to the
microphone to give the tribute -- and told a little something about each
one of the lost soldiers, including Command Sgt.-Maj. Young's friend, First
Sergeant Robert Dowdy -- he really began to struggle. His face grew redder;
it seemed he was having trouble catching his breath.
But it was the roll call that did him in, the handsome drill sergeant in
his dark green BDUs (Battle Dress Uniforms, which most of the soldiers were
wearing), barking out, "First Sergeant Dowdy! First Sergeant Dowdy! First
Sergeant Robert J. Dowdy!" to the most awful silence.
Command Sgt.-Maj. Young reached a hand to his face and pretended to scratch
it, several times.
The volleys were fired then, followed by the most splendid imaginable
version of Taps, and then the pipers of the 62nd Army Band came into the
room, first one playing Amazing Grace, the others joining in until the
music swelled to the rafters. And then it was over.
I introduced myself to him, and got his name. "I was watching your lovely
face as you tried not to cry," I said. He smiled, a huge, sweet grin that
ate up all the tough edges that decades of Army life leave. "It's always
hard to lose brothers and sisters," he said. "It's like losing your
family." Then, "It is losing your family."
"How long have you been in?" I asked.
"Twenty-six years," Command Sgt.-Maj. Young replied. He is 48.
"You must like it?"
"It's OK," he said, then grinned again. "I love it."
"What was that shoulder-bumping thing you did?" I asked.
"That was just us hugging," he said.
Then the TV people swarmed him and I shook his hand and left.
The nine who died were Private Ruben Estrella-Soto, who was 18 and due to
be married; Private Brandon Sloan, who was 19 and known for his light heart
and eagerness to learn; Private First Class Howard (Hojo) Johnson II, who
at 21 was much loved and deeply religious; Specialist Jamaal Addison, 22
and genuinely spiritual; Specialist James Kiehl, 22, who was known for his
work ethic and was about to be a father for the first time; Specialist Lori
Ann (Pie) Piestewa , a 23-year-old native American with a broad smile;
Sergeant Donald Walters, 33, a company cook who fed his soldiers much more
than food; First Sgt. Dowdy, 38, loved and respected for his fairness and
competence; and Chief Warrant Officer Johnny Villareal Mata, nicknamed
"Chief," who "always led from the front" whether in training runs or at
work, in overalls.
They are the first combat casualties for Fort Bliss, the second-largest
base in America, since the Vietnam War.
Command Sgt.-Maj. Young's face was actually the second one I noticed. The
first man I spotted was a rangy fellow with a hawk face and thick grey hair
who seemed uneasy in his dark suit, the pants too long for his cowboy
boots.
He was another, like Command Sgt.-Maj. Young, who before the ceremony
started, was being swarmed by younger soldiers, who approached him with
great smiles of welcome. That got my attention, but it was his booming cry
of, "It's a great day to be a soldier!" that had me run after him.
He is Barry Caldwell, the former chief of staff at Fort Bliss.
"If you say one thing in whatever you're going to write," he said, "say
it's a great day to be a soldier."
This, of course, is the motto of the base, emblazoned over an overpass near
one of the gates.
The slogan of the 507th Maintenance Company, perfect because it is as
imperious as the orders its members must get, is, "Just Fix It!"
They couldn't fix things yesterday, but they made them better, and it was
still a great day to be a soldier.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
After posting the above to a military-oriented listserv I run I emailed
Miss Blatchford to tell her how much her article moved us. I included
brief service bios of some of our members along with their comments. Her
reply follows:
thanks, jeff, to you and your friends. it was lovely of you to pass
along their comments, and your own.
my dad was a navigator for the RCAF in the second world war. he'd be
proud that something i wrote was so favourably received with your
gang. he was a great guy, and a wonderful father, and my test of how
well i've done on any particular story is often what he would have
thought, had he been here to read it. this one he would have liked.
best,
christie
-----
Miss Blatchford understands.
--
-Jeff B.
zoomie at fastmail dot fm
Fuck 'em all but nine;
Six to be pallbearers,
Two to be roadguards,
And one to count cadence.
~An old Army toast
"MIDIcian" (tm)
Bullshit. The last election documented to be stolen was the 2004 election.
And the one before that that was documented to be stolen, was the 2000
election.
Stan
"MIDIcian" (tm)
Those weren't paper ballots, they were machine ballots. Yes they used
(thick) paper for the punch cards.
> As we all know, nothing bad can happen to PAPER ballots. Like tearing,
> water damage fire. Or Hanging, dangling, pregnant, dimpled chads, etc.
> Yeah, that would be a real success story.
I'm talking about a ballot in which you physically check the box of the
candidate you want to vote for, with a pen. Certainly, there's always been
ballot box stuffing, but when you review the ballots, you can easily notice
when there are duplicates, because no-one has the same handwriting.
Stan
"MIDIcian" (tm)
>>in the time-frame of Clinton's excellent Presidency. It's just that they
>>got control of the needed positions in Texas before they spread it out to
>>Florida and Ohio.
>
>
> Who got control? Who are the persons in 'needed positions' and what were
> those positions in Texas, Florida and Ohio? Come on, ignoramous. Name
> names.
What do you not understand about "I think"????
"MIDIcian" (tm)
universities) -
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Newsgroups:
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Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 21:49:14 -0400
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J.Leonard
""MIDIcian" (tm)" <St...@NeverFalls.com> wrote in message
accurate phrase would be you 'believe', since belief doesn't require either
conscious thought or fact.